1 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Itchy and Bitchy Podcast because being 2 00:00:15,279 --> 00:00:19,839 itchy is bitchy and our medical system sucks. I'm doctor 3 00:00:19,879 --> 00:00:23,280 Keith Nolica, a vetnary, allergist and dermatologist. 4 00:00:22,719 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: And I'm Stephen Miller, a doctor of nursing practice and 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,239 a Q Care nurse practitioner. 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,679 Speaker 1: Send us your questions at ask at itch not dot com. 7 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:34,840 We love you, but we're not your doctors. The information 8 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,640 we discuss is not direct medical advice. Please talk to 9 00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:42,719 your provider who is the expert on your care. The 10 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:46,439 Itchy and BITCHI podcast is sponsored by doc Itchy Medical 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,000 Pets supplements designed to optimize your pet's health with the 12 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:55,079 latest veterinary medical research. Visit docichi dot com or find 13 00:00:55,159 --> 00:00:58,799 us on Amazon and please click that follow button and 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,320 send us a question at it ask at itchnot dot com. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,079 Speaker 3: Thanks, hello, doctor Miller. How are you today? 16 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:09,239 Speaker 2: Wayne dia Oliver? I? 17 00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:13,159 Speaker 3: Okay? You ready for an episode? Yes? Okay? 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,799 Speaker 1: So I a little bit about me, maybe too much information, 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,120 but I have horrible sensitivity to beef. So like, even 20 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,200 if I eat at a restaurant and they grilled my 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,439 chicken or shrimp on the same grill that they had 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,959 steak grilled, or if I eat a little bit of 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,439 the potato that has some steak juice on it, or 24 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,319 the bun from a hamburger, I will have horrible reactions 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,760 to the point of like rolling around in the bathroom 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,840 on the floor thinking I should call nine to one one. 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:46,439 Speaker 3: It's not very pleasant. 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,959 Speaker 1: Okay, So last night I was at a party with 29 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:56,599 friends and this guy friend said, oh, I have that too, 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,760 Is it from the tick bite? And I was like, 31 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,799 what are you talking about? Yeah, And actually I didn't 32 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:06,799 know what he was talking about. He's talking about Alpha 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,680 gal And this came out in the literature popular literature, 34 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,120 just like a few years ago. 35 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: So it's important to kind of tease through, like yeah, 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,319 Alpha gl Now though it is not like a gay 37 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,520 drag queen thing like Alpha Guru. This is like legit style. 38 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,199 Speaker 1: So it's basically where you get bitten by a tick 39 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:31,039 and that's a specific tick, and then that mimics animal protein, 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,439 so that when you eat beef, pork, lamb, any kind 41 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,479 of animal protein, you end up having an allergic reaction 42 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:42,280 to the meat. And so it's a sensitivity triggered by 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,199 tick bites. So our care captain here, Doctor Miller is 44 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,960 going to tell us about alpha gal and then we're 45 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,879 going to talk about other richetsial diseases, and those are 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,599 tick board diseases, so like Rocky Mountain spotted fever or 47 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,159 Lickia anaplasmosis, and then we're going to talk about how 48 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:01,800 to prevent that. And there's actually a lot of information 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,479 from dogs and cats that is being applied to humans. 50 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:08,919 So usually we steal information from the human side and 51 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,240 apply it to dogs and cats, but this is actually 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,280 going backwards. 53 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,039 Speaker 3: So tell us about alpha. 54 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,879 Speaker 1: Gal and why I'm rolling around on the bathroom floor 55 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:18,560 in agony. 56 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:21,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like you said, alpha gal is a tick 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:29,439 associated condition that is caused by immune globulian E mediated 58 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,680 allergy to beef and other mammalian meats. And so alpha 59 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:38,439 gal stands for a big long bunch of words called galactose, 60 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:44,919 alpha one three galactose short shortened alpha gal. And what 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,719 it does is tick Spit contains alpha gal, which then 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:57,080 triggers IG and A bodies, and then when sensitized individuals 63 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:04,879 eat beef or mammalian meat, alpha gal anigen absorbs through 64 00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:11,479 the fat via glacolipids and are incorporated via chylomcrons are 65 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:16,759 tiny little you know, faticles, yeah, fat vescals, and so 66 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,120 these inner circulation in approximately two hours after eating, and 67 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,279 then you have the reaction at the level of the 68 00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:30,360 mast cells in the gut, and so the reaction you know, 69 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,920 can be things like terrible headache, horrible fatigue. You know, 70 00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:39,720 they're so you can feel really miserable with it, and 71 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:45,120 some people can actually get anaphylaxis. So it's important for 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:49,240 those people, you know, to keep an epi pan around 73 00:04:49,399 --> 00:04:51,240 should they have anaphylaxis with this. 74 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: So a little bit of unpacking that you mentioned. 75 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,959 Speaker 1: Tick spits, So what's up with the spit, Like, why 76 00:04:57,959 --> 00:05:04,120 are tick spitting? Well, they have saliva, just like so veterinarians. 77 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,560 To a lot of parasitology, the saliva of biting insects, mosquitoes, 78 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,680 ticks is actually an anti coagulant. So what they do 79 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,879 is they have their little nose, and the nose as 80 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,560 like little scissor kind of apparatus, and it pierces the skin. 81 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,920 It kind of scissors through the skin, and then they 82 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:26,000 start producing salivary pumps, produce saliva spit, and they inject 83 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,319 it into the mammals skin and it's an anti coagulant, 84 00:05:29,399 --> 00:05:32,480 so they can suck blood. But it's the saliva the 85 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,079 spit that does a couple things. One is that it 86 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,759 can cause allergy, so animals and people can actually be 87 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,879 allergic to the insects saliva, and this is why some 88 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,040 people are super sensitive to insect bites like mosquitoes compared 89 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,000 to other people that aren't really bothered. But the spit 90 00:05:51,079 --> 00:05:56,319 can also transfer proteins like this alpha gal or tick 91 00:05:56,399 --> 00:05:59,120 born diseases. So a lot of these tickborn diseases like 92 00:05:59,199 --> 00:06:02,720 Rocky Mountain spots fever, actually live in the stomach of 93 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:06,600 the biting insect, like the mosquito with malaria or the 94 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,920 ticks with antiplasma or lichea, and when they inject the saliva, 95 00:06:10,959 --> 00:06:13,920 they kind of like vomit into the skin as well, 96 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,800 and the saliva and the secretions from the tick transfer 97 00:06:18,879 --> 00:06:21,879 a lot of kind of nasty things. So it turns 98 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,399 out that this alpha gal in the spit just happens 99 00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:29,120 to mimic animal protein that we like to eat as 100 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,399 pork chops and steaks, and then we can get sensitized 101 00:06:32,399 --> 00:06:36,000 to it. So my symptoms, I actually think that I 102 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,399 truly have a food allergy. I've never been tested for 103 00:06:38,519 --> 00:06:43,000 alpha GAL, but I within twenty to thirty minutes, so 104 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,720 it's not instant. But twenty thirty minutes start having horrible 105 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:52,480 abdominal cramps and horrible blowout diarrhea a little bit maybe TMI, 106 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,360 and then I start getting lightheaded and faint and almost 107 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,720 almost feel like I'm going into like an anim a phylactic. 108 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: You might have riilled back on the blowout. 109 00:07:03,079 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that's too discovered. But so can people go 110 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,680 into naflexus with this? They actually can't be pinned. 111 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: They can, and so it's important you know that if 112 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,040 you've had a history of tick by IT and you're 113 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:19,879 exhibiting these symptoms of diarrhea and nausea, vomiting and abdominal pain, 114 00:07:20,279 --> 00:07:23,839 that you share that with your provider so that the 115 00:07:24,199 --> 00:07:28,079 proper testing can be done, because there is an alpha 116 00:07:28,079 --> 00:07:32,279 GL specific IgE blood test that can be evaluated. 117 00:07:32,319 --> 00:07:34,079 Speaker 1: Okay, so I've never been tested, So I go to 118 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,040 my provider. They'd get a blood sample. I assume they'd 119 00:07:37,079 --> 00:07:39,199 send it off somewhere, and then a couple of days 120 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:42,000 later they tell me if I'm positive or negative, and 121 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,160 then if I'm positive, I know that I truly am 122 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,680 not crazy that I an issue. And then is there 123 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,680 anything you can do to fix the hypersensitivity or do 124 00:07:51,759 --> 00:07:52,160 you do? 125 00:07:52,839 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: Pretty much it's meat dietary avoidance is the main thing. 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,240 And then tick by prevention, so if you're out and about, 127 00:08:02,319 --> 00:08:04,079 you know, doing it, we'll talk about that in a minute. 128 00:08:04,079 --> 00:08:07,079 And ticks are really nasty, oh fature. Yeah, and they 129 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,959 like cracks and crevices, Oh my goodness. Really, they transmit bacteria, 130 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:14,000 they transmit viruses and parasites. 131 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. 132 00:08:15,839 --> 00:08:21,759 Speaker 1: So interestingly, what if I took like a benadryl before 133 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,720 I ate a steak? Would I be able to still 134 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:26,480 eat the steak? 135 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,279 Speaker 2: Probably not, but it might. I mean, there's no way 136 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:35,559 to know and to attempt that. Like premedicating for your food. 137 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,399 Speaker 1: What we see in dogs is that the amount of 138 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,240 food enagen is not is so so great, like a 139 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:46,840 big chunk of steak, that it overwhelms any mild impact 140 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:49,879 that anyhistamines might have or something like that. I kind 141 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:51,919 of bring this up because the guy that brought this 142 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:55,919 up Last night we were actually eating fall off the 143 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,639 bone ribs that our other good friend had cooked, and 144 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,039 we had waited and waited all evening for these ribs. 145 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: Technically we didn't get to eat them because they were late. 146 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,399 Speaker 1: Well they came out like ten o'clock. But anyway, but 147 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,720 he really was debating the concept of getting an epi 148 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:13,279 pen and eating. 149 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 3: The ribs and being prepared with his epipin. 150 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:19,159 Speaker 2: Now it is ever. I mean, people that get anaphylaxis 151 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:20,600 they ip and different works. 152 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,879 Speaker 3: So should you have epinifferent and eat the ribs? No? 153 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:26,159 Speaker 2: Hell no, like you're going to put your body through that. 154 00:09:26,879 --> 00:09:28,279 Speaker 3: It's probably not a good idea. 155 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,039 Speaker 1: And that's actually what we told So maybe rethink that 156 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,279 a little bit. But the ribs did look really good. 157 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:38,279 So what about other proteins? You said, mammal proteins, So 158 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,960 what about poultry or yeah? 159 00:09:40,039 --> 00:09:42,919 Speaker 2: So really, truly, when you look in the literature, it 160 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:48,200 is to beef, pork, and lamb, although like in your 161 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:50,799 case that you can eat lamb and you can eat pork, 162 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:51,960 but you can't eat beef. 163 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: So I may not be positive for alpha GU. I 164 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,399 may have a true food allergy to beef. It's hard 165 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:00,679 to know until you get the tests and they're actually 166 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,120 testing for food allergy is really really difficult in animals 167 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,720 and people. The accuracy of the tests is pretty low 168 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:10,399 even though they're offered. But this is one that's a 169 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,159 very clear yes or no blood test, and so definitely 170 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:15,720 it's worth getting more information. 171 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: Just for the general there are lots and lots of 172 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,200 gelatine containing vaccines and pill coverings and things that can 173 00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:27,039 have beef. 174 00:10:27,919 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, run into this. 175 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: So I'm so sensitive to beef that some of the capsules, 176 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:35,600 like antibiotics will come in a capsule sometimes and a 177 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:39,759 lot of those are gelatine or jello. The most common 178 00:10:39,799 --> 00:10:42,000 source of gello. This is kind of gross, but it's 179 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,320 actually beef bovine trachea. So they take the tracheas because 180 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,159 there's a lot of collagen in it and they kind 181 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:54,080 of dissolve it and that forms this gelatine coagulant that 182 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,919 we then use to cook with and eat. Even some 183 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,000 of the joint supplements like glucosamine are often source cow 184 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,679 source bovine is a scientific word, and I'm incredibly sensitive 185 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,639 to those. So if you are sensitive food allergy or 186 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,519 this alpha gal, then really look at all of these 187 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,759 supplements and make sure that you have like a seafood 188 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:19,759 origin glucosamine, or if you're taking any collagen, make sure 189 00:11:19,799 --> 00:11:23,200 that it's poultry collagen and not a bovine based or 190 00:11:23,279 --> 00:11:24,399 cow based collagen. 191 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think our topic is certainly apropos with 192 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,399 summer coming now, Alpha gal is going to affect the 193 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,120 individual no matter what the season, But certainly I think 194 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,360 with the with some are coming around and the exposure 195 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,320 to ticks, we're certainly at an opportune moment to start 196 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,919 exploring tick moore and illnesses. 197 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're they're pretty nasty. So okay, we're going 198 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:53,399 to take a break here and then we're going to 199 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,799 come back and talk about there riquet seal diseases, the 200 00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:01,720 true nasty, life threatening disease like lime disease, rocky Mountain 201 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,759 spotted fever. We have some statistics on those in dogs, cats, 202 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:10,679 and humans. A little bit of foreshadowing. All of the 203 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,039 incidents are doubling or tripling with all of those diseases, 204 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,000 so we're getting more and more exposure and that can 205 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,639 cause really severe chronic diseases sometimes. And then finally we'll 206 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,480 finish up with how to prevent and avoid ticks and 207 00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:27,519 insect bites, a lot of information from our pets that 208 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,120 can apply to people, and then finally at the end 209 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,279 we'll have our legit or bullshit episode, So hang in 210 00:12:34,279 --> 00:12:37,279 there and stick with us. We'll be right back after 211 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:59,000 a short break. All right, welcome back. We're going to 212 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,799 talk about some of the other scarier diseases, the er Lika, 213 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:09,759 Rocky Mountain spotted fever, anaplasma lime disease, and those are 214 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,080 usually transferred by ticks and so kind of like the 215 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,200 alpha gal but a little bit different. These are actually 216 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,759 truly infectious organisms. They're called rickettsial organisms or diseases, and 217 00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:26,399 they're tick born. And so some of these, like lime disease, 218 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:29,480 mainly affect people, but they can't affect dogs and cats. 219 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,679 And then some affect more in dogs, like or Likia 220 00:13:33,799 --> 00:13:36,600 was discovered during the Vietnam War in nineteen sixty eight, 221 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,279 and a lot of the military dogs were actually having 222 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:45,080 life threatening bone mirror suppression and anemias and we're dying 223 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,679 in the jungles of Vietnam. And it was finally discovered 224 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,399 that this was an insect vector bore and disease that 225 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:56,120 potentially could be treated. So the most common of these 226 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:59,360 are going to be the Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which 227 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,960 our government or of Tennessee actually contracted several years ago. Anaplasma. 228 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,879 Antaplasmosis is the name of that. If they add osis, 229 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:10,639 that's usually the name of the disease as opposed to 230 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,720 the organism. And then we have or likia, and then 231 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,480 finally we have lime disease. 232 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 233 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:22,879 Speaker 2: Lime disease is really the most common in people LIKA 234 00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:25,480 the United States, and we see quite a bit of that. 235 00:14:25,679 --> 00:14:28,919 As a matter of fact, I've seen already this week 236 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:35,679 some people who have been suspected of tick bite and 237 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,320 then subsequent symptoms. 238 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: So we need to kind of say we're in the 239 00:14:40,159 --> 00:14:43,799 late spring, early summer months here as we're recording this, 240 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:47,840 and ticks depending on your weather. If you don't have 241 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,360 snow on the ground, then probably you need to worry 242 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:55,399 about insects, mosquitoes, chuggars, scabies from wildlife, and then here 243 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,000 we're talking about ticks. So the concept of winter time 244 00:14:59,039 --> 00:15:01,799 and you don't need to worry insects or ticks is 245 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,919 really if you have snow and ice on the ground, 246 00:15:04,039 --> 00:15:08,639 not just the season of December, January, February. 247 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 248 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: It's also really interesting with the varying forms of take 249 00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:19,960 born disease that most of the treatments are doxy cycling. However, 250 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,320 unless you get babiosis, which. 251 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,879 Speaker 3: Is abiosis is how I say it? 252 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: Now? What well, pardon wall, And so it's a parasitic infection, 253 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,000 and so that one is treated differently with samazethromyce and 254 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:45,759 a TOVA kwone or whatever, a tova I know, Yeah, 255 00:15:45,879 --> 00:15:46,919 I'm not really up on these. 256 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: N The other thing with all of these is that 257 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,120 the way to diagnose it used to be really difficult. 258 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,840 They would do like just screen screen, bloodwork CBC, and 259 00:15:56,879 --> 00:15:59,399 then you would have symptoms and it was sometimes really 260 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,519 challenging to diagnose, like lime disease or Rocky Mountains spotted fever. 261 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: It's still very challenging. 262 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:09,279 Speaker 1: Well, so nowadays DNA testing is very very accurate unless 263 00:16:09,279 --> 00:16:12,480 you have chronic exposure. And that's almost like the alpha 264 00:16:12,519 --> 00:16:16,000 gal where these tick born diseases could have come and gone, 265 00:16:16,039 --> 00:16:20,480 but the chronic sort of inflammation and immune stimulation almost 266 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,200 like a loopus kind of situation that's been triggered by 267 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:24,840 the infection. 268 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 2: The problem is that the symptoms are so vague and 269 00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:32,200 generalized that it's like everybody that enters the hospital has 270 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,120 these symptoms, and then you're like, but like for lime disease, 271 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,840 there's a two tiered zerological testing the ELISA and then 272 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:45,960 a second ELISA, so you do this two tiered testing 273 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:52,480 for that one. So yeah, kind of challenging. Blood smears 274 00:16:52,519 --> 00:16:57,000 certainly help and so those are certainly helpful, especially with 275 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,399 the parasitic types of infection or where the patient ends 276 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,160 up having some severe aplastic and emi or something like that. Association. 277 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is actually where our veterinary species we're 278 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,039 a little bit ahead of this. So we actually have 279 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,720 a snap test which does this kind of in clinic. 280 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:16,680 You just get a blood sample, you spin it down, 281 00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:20,000 collect the serum off the blood sample, and then you 282 00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:22,640 put it on this little it's almost like the COVID 283 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,839 tests that we have now, but this actually tests for 284 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,880 three to four different diseases simultaneously and it cooks for 285 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,599 five to ten minutes, and then a little positive or 286 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,920 negative like a pregnancy test, pops up. And the accuracy 287 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,880 on those is actually pretty good. It's about ninety to 288 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,200 ninety five percent sensitivity and specificity, which means how accurate 289 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,920 it is. Those are scientific statistical kind of parameters, but 290 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,359 so in animals, it's actually relatively easy to get at 291 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,440 a preliminary test within ten minutes. In the clinic, which 292 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:58,200 is kind of cool. 293 00:17:58,839 --> 00:18:03,319 Speaker 2: It's also interesting that not all of these infections have 294 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:08,440 rash associated. So, for example, with lime disease, about seventy 295 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,279 to eighty percent individuals will develop a rash and it 296 00:18:11,319 --> 00:18:14,319 may develop this sort of classic rash, which is a 297 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,119 target or bullseye type of rash that people can get. 298 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,799 And so that's very specific for Rocky mount spoted fever, 299 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,599 for elecies, I mean s for lime disease. Yeah, sorry 300 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:31,319 about that. And so for Rocky Mounts spitted fever, which 301 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,839 has the highest mortality rate. You know, the classic is fever, headache, 302 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,559 and rash. So it's a kind of a macular, raised 303 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,680 kind of rash, generalized rash that those folks get. 304 00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:46,599 Speaker 3: But then in dongs, the most common is are likia. 305 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,119 Do people get ar likia? 306 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, people get or likiosis. And as a matter of fact, 307 00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:56,119 I've had a gentleman that had or lichiosis, so we 308 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,680 have of course, of course he was treated many years ago. 309 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,599 Rash can occur in those individuals up to about thirty 310 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:04,519 percent of the time, So not everybody gets. 311 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: A rash, and that's why it's hard to diagnose. 312 00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: There's not an absolute hallmarks symptom and then even like 313 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:13,000 the lime disease, the ring can be caused by other 314 00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:15,920 things as well, So I definitely talk to your provider, 315 00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:20,200 you know, don't try to treat yourself. And nowadays testing 316 00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:23,119 is readily available and much much more accurate. 317 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: And it's also important for folks to remember that there 318 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:34,759 are some many evolving pathogens for takeboarding illness, so it 319 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:38,599 can be very very challenging. I think sort of key 320 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,759 principles is doxy cycling for his first line treatments and 321 00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:49,000 pets as well. Yeah, and of course treating coinfection, and 322 00:19:49,039 --> 00:19:54,559 then prophylactic doxycycling can be considered, you know, for if. 323 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: You're going hiking the app Lachian Trail, for instance, you 324 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,680 might talk to your provider about that, and that's somewhe controversial, 325 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,160 but we always want to look at what are the 326 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,200 side effects if we're taking something prophylactically versus the potential benefit, 327 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,960 So definitely talk to your provider about those. Any last 328 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,839 words before we take a break and move on to prevention. 329 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,599 Speaker 2: No, I think this is just an opportune time to 330 00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:22,759 start talking about tick more and illness, and as people 331 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:26,279 are getting going hiking and spending time in their yards 332 00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:30,960 and playing with their children. Just keep this in mind, 333 00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:34,000 a type symptom so a tic check their YouTube videos. 334 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,279 But cracks and crevice inspection for ticks definitely after you've 335 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,519 been outside. And ticks can actually be kind of neighborhood 336 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:44,599 to neighborhood in the suburbs. So if your neighborhood has 337 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:47,000 a lot of ticks, then you really need to keep 338 00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:50,559 an eye out and do tick screening. You know, the 339 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,640 hunting cracks and crevices very often. So Okay, we're going 340 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,359 to take a quick break, and then when we come back, 341 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,000 we're going to talk about preventing tick bites and insect bites. 342 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:02,200 And actually, I think the veterinary world is a little 343 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,960 bit ahead of the human world. We have much safer, 344 00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,759 less toxic options, but they're working their way into the humans. 345 00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: And then we'll take another break and then finally the 346 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,240 legit or bullshit segment. So hang in there and come 347 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:32,759 right back. All right, we're back. I hope you're stuck 348 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:35,000 with us after that break. How do you survive the break, 349 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:38,440 doctor Miller? I survived. I'm still in all right. That's 350 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,319 a good thing. So preventing is really what we want 351 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,400 to do with all of the insects. We talked about, 352 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,440 the salivas and anticoagulant, and all of the infectious organisms 353 00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:52,400 kind of travel with the saliva and the gastric juices. 354 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,960 And so if we can prevent the bites or at 355 00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:59,400 least the transfer of the spit the saliva, then we're 356 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,039 way ahead of the grame rather than having to treat 357 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:07,240 the disease and diagnose it. So in human medicine, my 358 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,200 understanding is that they use a lot of things like 359 00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:17,799 deep and unthrids, those kinds of things. Uh, any other 360 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,920 kind of common preventions Steven. 361 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,559 Speaker 2: No, The most common thing, clearly is tick checks. And 362 00:22:25,279 --> 00:22:29,359 I always used to laugh at all the theories and 363 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,640 and thinks the things of pulling the tick off. 364 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,759 Speaker 3: So that don't squeeze. 365 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,599 Speaker 1: Thing actually kind of makes sense because if you squeeze 366 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,720 on the body of the tick, you're actually squirting all 367 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,480 of the stomach content into the skin, and you don't 368 00:22:45,519 --> 00:22:46,240 really want to do that. 369 00:22:46,279 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: At least fill me what, yes, wisdom. 370 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:55,079 Speaker 1: They make little like button size uh devices that have 371 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,480 like a little divot or uh check uh cut out 372 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:02,440 of the side and you can kind of scoop that 373 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:04,720 under the tick and then lift it off. Those are 374 00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:07,720 readily available and they're almost disposable, very easy. 375 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,599 Speaker 3: You can use some tweezers. 376 00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: You don't really want to use your fingers because our 377 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,119 fingers are too big, and then you're getting exposed to 378 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,480 all of the juices and stuff. So you do want 379 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:19,119 to try to lift the tick off. Kind of doing 380 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,359 these things with burning the tick probably not really a 381 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,359 good idea. Sometimes you can put some oil or something 382 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,400 and the tick will back out on their own because 383 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,759 they can't breathe very well. 384 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 385 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, but repellents are definitely good. Interestingly, all of the 386 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:40,680 repellents date pyrethrins. Permethrons are relatively toxic, and there was 387 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,559 a big issue during the Iraq War about exposure to 388 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,200 permethrins combined with deet to avoid sandflies and other biding 389 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,920 insects and the transmission of leshmaniasis and all sorts of 390 00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:59,000 nasty insects transmitted diseases. In veterinary medicine, we actually have 391 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,599 this class of compounds called isoxazylins, and this is relatively new, 392 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,119 probably the last five to six years, maybe a little 393 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,519 bit longer than that, and the FDA has done us 394 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:13,440 a really nice job in the last ten years, so 395 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,079 that they tend to name compounds with the same ending 396 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,480 in the same class of compounds. So all of these 397 00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:25,960 isoxazyling group of drugs end in Lanner, and so we 398 00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:30,680 have Flora Lanner, A Foxolanner, Sora Lanner. The human drug 399 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,559 that just came out is LOADI Lanner, and so we 400 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:36,720 can kind of know that they're in this family. And 401 00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:40,599 what's amazing about these compounds is that you take them orally. 402 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:42,640 And that sounds okay, well, I'm going to take an 403 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,920 oral pesticide to kill the insects. That doesn't sound like 404 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,480 a really good idea, but they're so incredibly specific for 405 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,559 the insect the ticks and mosquitoes and sandflies, that they 406 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,359 pass right through the mammal's body and only affect the insect. 407 00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:00,799 And then the other really cool mat trick that they 408 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:04,160 do is that they're so incredibly potent and fast acting 409 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,880 that they actually paralyze the salivary pumps of the insect 410 00:25:09,079 --> 00:25:12,559 so that the insect can't inject enough spit or saliva 411 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,960 to cause allergic reactions or transmit these tick born diseases 412 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,359 or racketsial diseases. So the products that we have in 413 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,720 ventory medicine for now at least five years or things 414 00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:30,920 like Simperica is my favorite, regular full strength Symperica, not 415 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,359 the all in one Symperica. Trio Prevecto is another one 416 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,400 every ninety days, there's Credilio. 417 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: And I think it's important that our alreadience understand that 418 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,000 these are veterinary medicine myths, right, These correct for human consumption. 419 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:46,519 Speaker 3: Correct. 420 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: But what's amazing with these is that they work so 421 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,799 well at preventing tickboarn diseases and animals that they've actually 422 00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:57,680 been investigated in humans. So there is a human loading 423 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:01,559 lander and it goes by XDEMV and it's actually FDA 424 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,000 approved for the treatment of demod x blephritis, probably also 425 00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:09,480 helpful for roseatia. So talk to your provider about the 426 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:14,200 possibility of these. But the interesting thing again, it passes 427 00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:18,279 through the mammal so even though we're giving a neurotoxin, 428 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:21,960 they work by interacting with the GABA channels that the 429 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:27,839 incidence of neurologic symptoms is less than one percent over 430 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,400 millions and millions of doses in dogs and cats. So 431 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,640 the human data is new enough and they don't have 432 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,359 millions of doses yet, But they seem to almost have 433 00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:40,039 zero effect on mammals, and that's in comparison to the 434 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:44,039 promethans or like ivermectin that at the dose to kill 435 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,759 demod x like this human x DEMV product, the dose 436 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,640 that we would need for demodex ivermectin has about a 437 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:58,759 thirty percent neurologic side effect toxicity incidents, So thirty percent 438 00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:02,599 of neurologic symptoms compared to these isox as elings that 439 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:06,599 have less than one percent. And then this also brings up, well, 440 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,000 if we can prevent the transmission of lime disease, and 441 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,200 that's been documented in dogs with these compounds, what about 442 00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:17,079 malaria and mosquitoes and so it's actually being explored in 443 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:23,559 humans for the prevention of malaria and even insect population control. 444 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,640 So if we know that with dogs in the neighborhood, 445 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,599 if they're all on these products, you can actually decrease 446 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:34,000 the population of ticks or biting insects because the dogs 447 00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:38,240 act as a reservoir sink to eliminate a huge percentage 448 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,640 of the insect population. 449 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think to making sure that the audience, 450 00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:49,039 our listeners understand not to overreact to tick bite. So 451 00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:52,640 there are three criterion that are used for high risk 452 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,519 tick bites and those are what's used for guidance as 453 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,400 far as treatment with doxycycling. So that buy was front. 454 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,279 There were three criterion. One is that it was the 455 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:10,960 bite was from an identified suck exodise exit ez er 456 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,680 back legged deer tick is better with species. And then 457 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,720 number two if it occurly, if it occurred in a 458 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,960 highly endemic area for lime disease. And then number three 459 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,839 if it was attached for more than thirty six hours. 460 00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: So that's the twenty four hours is the big criteria 461 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,200 and that's why the tick checks are so important. That 462 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,240 if you get the tick off of the body human, dog, 463 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,519 cat within twenty four hours, the transmission rate is pretty 464 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:39,319 close to zero. 465 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,559 Speaker 2: Not but how does like the common person out there 466 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,359 know if it was from a black legged deer tick? 467 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can actually nowadays you can collect the 468 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:51,720 tick again if you're careful and don't burn it with 469 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:54,000 a match another reason, and then you can have Google 470 00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:57,200 identify it. But another tick is the lone star tick 471 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,240 which has like a little white dot on the back, 472 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,640 and you can always call your agriculture department, even your 473 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,240 local veterinarian probably not human providers. They don't know much 474 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,519 about parasitology, but veterinarians know kind of what ticks are 475 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,079 in the area. And then definitely the agriculture department knows 476 00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:18,799 exactly what species of ticks are where, and then the 477 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,359 incidence of lime disease like up in New England, you 478 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,680 would know that you're in a hotspot kind of area. 479 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: So yeah, we'll have to look and see if there's 480 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,279 some I'm sure there's an AI method for taking a 481 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:30,640 picture of a tick and uploading. 482 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, by the plant out that I take pictures of plants, and. 483 00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 2: But I do think it's important for people to remember 484 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,799 if if the tick bite doesn't involve these high risk criterion, 485 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,440 it's more of a watch and weight approach. But always, always, always, 486 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,079 if you're having symptoms, seek the care, because seek care. 487 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:50,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, talk provider works. We love you, but we're not 488 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,839 your doctors. Talk to your provider. They're the expert on 489 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,920 your care. Okay, we're going to take a break and 490 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,960 when we come back, we're going to do a legit 491 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,559 or bullshit segment, So stick with us. Hopefully we'll have 492 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,559 some laughs and learn some things about some weird scientific information. 493 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:24,599 See you on the other side. All right, welcome back. 494 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,200 We are in the legit or bullshit section of this. 495 00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:31,640 Are you ready, Doc Miller or care Captain? I was 496 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,440 born ready. All right, here we go. So this is 497 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,319 going to be short and quick. That all the questions 498 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,480 are related. So the first one, I picked this because 499 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:45,880 I was intrigued by it because I don't I'm not 500 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,880 sure about this in the veterinary world, so I wanted 501 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,720 to get some information on the human side. So, do 502 00:30:52,640 --> 00:31:02,680 can antibiotic therapy change your mood or depression anxiety levels 503 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,599 in people taking antibotics like you would for sinus infection 504 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:09,160 or acne or something like that. 505 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,759 Speaker 2: I don't think there's any direct causation, so you would say, late, 506 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:16,759 that may be a little bit of bullshit. 507 00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:20,079 Speaker 1: Okay, So it turns out it actually does. Antibotics can 508 00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:25,079 statistically change mood as they relate to anxiety, depression, those 509 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,759 kinds of things in humans. And it kind of relates 510 00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:32,000 to serotonin. So what organ in the body produces the 511 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:41,200 most serotonin? Okay, what organ in the body produces the 512 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,319 most serotonin the brain? Most people would say the brain, 513 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:48,920 because we take anti serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which are antidepressants is. 514 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: Actually the gut. 515 00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:54,039 Speaker 1: So the gut is you know what, one mile long 516 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,839 or something crazy thirty feet or I don't know the statistic, 517 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,400 but really really a lot of your abdominal masses tested, 518 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:03,319 so kind of a lot, just more than your brain. 519 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,359 Speaker 3: And apparently it produces serotonin. 520 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: So then that kind of makes sense how antibiotics would 521 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:13,960 affect serotonin levels if it's in the gut, because it 522 00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:20,440 affects the microbiome, the leaky gut syndrome in kind of situations. 523 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,880 So you take the antibiotic, your gut microbiome changes, the 524 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,200 serotonin levels change, and it can affect mood. 525 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,119 Speaker 2: I will give you that the microbiome changes do happen 526 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:33,640 with antibiotics, and certainly I can see there is a 527 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,519 correlation there. 528 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think I see that in dogs and cats. 529 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:39,359 So that's why I was curious when I read that. 530 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,039 I was like, you know, I've never asked pet owners 531 00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:45,039 if they think the dog is more or less grumpy. 532 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:50,119 I've taken a lot of antibiotics I haven't noticed in obvious, 533 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:52,319 but I've never really thought to pay attention. 534 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,079 Speaker 2: Either it's not in the you know, the product or 535 00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,799 whatever to that depression is going to be something that's 536 00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:02,400 a side effect from the medicine. And it's also really 537 00:33:02,519 --> 00:33:05,440 challenging to prove because these most of these people are 538 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,400 on a million other things, right, not a single That's 539 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,880 the reason I'm saying that it might be a little 540 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,039 bit of be a so. 541 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,039 Speaker 1: We'll put a question mark. Okay, So then that kind 542 00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:21,119 of raises the question that if serotonin's in the gut 543 00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:24,279 and all of this microbiome kind of leaky gut syndrome, 544 00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:29,119 what about diseases like Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's can that 545 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,759 be affected by leaky gut and antibotic therapy? 546 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:40,279 Speaker 2: So specifically connecting antibiotic therapy a symptoms. It's a challenging course. 547 00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:43,359 So there's all manner of confounding variables to that question. 548 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,440 And I'm not I mean, while there may be some 549 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,480 may have some association between leaky gut and Alzheimer's and 550 00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:54,400 this and that and or the progression of it, I 551 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,640 think it's really important to remember that, especially with patients 552 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,200 with MINSHA, that minor changes in medications can cause big 553 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,480 impact because of interactions between the other medicines that they 554 00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:13,039 take and clearance in this and that. So again I'm 555 00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:14,760 not willing to give it one hundred percent. 556 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is I talked to Karen when she 557 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,239 interviewed me the first time in our transition. 558 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 3: The whole leaky gut thing. 559 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,639 Speaker 1: We definitely know it's a problem, and so we know 560 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,719 that leaki gut changes the microbiome, and then a lot 561 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,920 of the processed foods have a multifiers which increase permeability 562 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,599 of the gut, and then we have inflammation associated with 563 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,599 alterations and gut microbiome, but we don't really know what 564 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:44,039 to do about it. So taking just random bacteria and probiotics, 565 00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:47,360 we don't really know which ones and what dose and 566 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,320 are they even active if they're not refrigerated, And so 567 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,039 inflammation can definitely make a whole bunch of diseases worse. 568 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:59,000 And the microbiome and leaki gut is absolutely a huge 569 00:34:59,039 --> 00:35:03,639 source of inflammation. Does it cause Alzheimer's or Parkinson's? 570 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 3: Who knows. 571 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,119 Speaker 1: Maybe it could be a risk factor, but just I 572 00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:10,760 think there at the beginning of asking the questions and 573 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,960 collecting data. So again I don't I think it's legit 574 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:18,960 to ask the question, and you know, maybe there's some 575 00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:24,000 link and symptom increases if you have leaky gut in inflammation. 576 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:27,480 But clearly there's not It's a correlation, not a causation 577 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:27,920 at the time. 578 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: So again just me looking into the resources that it's 579 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,280 not yet defined. So there's not yet good studies to 580 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,840 look at the gut brain access and so I'll stick 581 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,599 with my bullshit. Well, I don't know that I would 582 00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:47,480 say bullshit. I would say nine hundred percent. I might. 583 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: We're investigating one of my students right now when she 584 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:55,119 when I challenge her with some blood worker unknown in 585 00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:59,119 a case, she says, that's intriguing. So I'd say that 586 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:03,519 it's intrigued, the concept is intriguing. We need to explore. 587 00:36:03,679 --> 00:36:07,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the definition of no definitive evidence. 588 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 589 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: So again back to the correlation is not causation, So 590 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,679 you know, always kind of look for biomechanisms and data. 591 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,199 Speaker 3: All right, Well that's it for us. Any last words, Stephen. 592 00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:22,559 Speaker 2: No, I hope you all have a spectacular week and 593 00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:25,599 that you're doing things in life that make you feel 594 00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:27,480 fulfilled and happy. 595 00:36:27,519 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 3: Get up and move. 596 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,599 Speaker 2: And yes, again, if you've followed me on my Facebook page, 597 00:36:32,639 --> 00:36:36,000 I am a big proponent of Move Move, Move, and 598 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:38,760 even if your only form of movement is sitting in 599 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,000 a chair and doing chair aerobics, that's better than not 600 00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:42,719 moving at all. 601 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,599 Speaker 1: Okay, so don't forget to sense questions at ask at 602 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:48,559 it's not dot com. We really would like to hear 603 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:51,039 from you, and we'll have an episode of all of 604 00:36:51,079 --> 00:36:55,320 your questions shortly, and visit our sponsors. Our primary sponsor 605 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,440 is doc itchy dot com medical pet supplements that are 606 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,559 scientific based. And then we have our website, itchyanbitchi dot com. 607 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: Facebook page is up and running. It's I and B 608 00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:12,760 podcast and you can find that on Facebook. Please join us. 609 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,920 We have eighteen thousand followers on that babe. 610 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,519 Speaker 1: Woh, it's pretty cool, all right, so send us a question, 611 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,880 visit our sponsors, stay well, stay safe, get up and move, 612 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,360 and we'll see you next time.