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Start having the 22 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:57.880 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 23 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.039 Noe B just Necessary Dvoid Over Every Boy Lost a 24 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:01.039 Confience eighty plus. 25 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.640 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 26 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.760 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:22.120 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 28 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:30.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:42.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 31 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.840 The solution to the Zodiac serial killer case is as 32 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:50.519 clear as it is controversial. One man, a letter writer, bombmaker, 33 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.439 and code creator, was living in the area at the 34 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:56.920 time of the Zodiac murders, had easy access to all 35 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.519 the crime scenes, and had a psychotic break at the 36 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.799 time the Zodiac began his heinous murder campaign. A genius 37 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:08.719 level mathematician, he was clever enough to disguise his handwriting, 38 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:14.520 avoid leaving evidence like fingerprints, and produced diabolically difficult ciphers 39 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.599 to taunt the police and the public with his identity 40 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:20.479 that lurked just on the other side of his impossibly 41 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:25.840 difficult codes. That man is Theodore J. Kazinsky, a product 42 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:29.800 of the mk Ultra project at Harvard University. Kazinski was 43 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.319 one of the youngest mathematics professors in UC Berkeley history, 44 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.520 a position he despised. Kazinski committed his first murder as 45 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.080 a Zodiac over winter break nineteen sixty eight, and his 46 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.560 second just after resigning his post as professor in July 47 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:49.840 nineteen sixty nine. His criminal signature, letter writing, and code 48 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:54.479 making continued unabated across both of his criminal careers as 49 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:59.280 a Zodiac and Unibomber. Exposed takes the reader through all 50 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:03.599 the evidence presented in the first two books, Hunted and Profile, 51 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:11.800 and systematically connects the Zodiac and Unibomber cases through handwriting, codes, locations, literature, 52 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:18.319 cultural references, and other unexpected details. Exposed makes it impossible 53 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:21.879 to dismiss Kazinski as the Zodiac, one of the most 54 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.039 evil serial killers of all time. The book that we're 55 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:29.960 featuring this evening is Exposed, The Zodiac Revealed the Zodiac 56 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:33.840 serial Killer with my special guest journalist and author, doctor 57 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:37.000 Mark Hewitt. Welcome back to the program and thank you 58 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.840 so much for this interview, doctor Mark Hewitt. 59 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:42.039 Thank you, Dan, thank you for having me again. 60 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.360 Thank you so much. I forgot to mention you are 61 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:49.120 a the pre eminent Zodiac researcher at one of the 62 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.479 preeminent Zodiac researchers in the world today. Let's talk about 63 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:59.039 this reason for our interview and the reissue you say, 64 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:03.639 revised and expanded editions of the three books related to 65 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.639 the Zodiac. Tell us about this September twenty seventh release 66 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:12.280 or reissue with the revised and expanded versions of these books. 67 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:15.039 Tell us a little bit about this reissue. 68 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:20.399 Sure September twenty seven. We reissued the three books because 69 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.560 of updates in the case and updates that I've been 70 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:26.720 receiving from readers. In each one of the books, I say, 71 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.720 we try as hard as possible to make sure that 72 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:32.759 everything is absolutely correct, but if something is not correct, 73 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.800 please bring it to our attention. So we have had 74 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:39.319 to revise a couple of times. It's actually this here 75 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.759 in twenty and twenty two. It's the third edition of 76 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.680 Hunted and the second edition of both Profiled and Exposed. 77 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.199 The biggest reason for updating it at this time was 78 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:53.720 as a result of the new development in the case, 79 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:56.959 and that was the solution that was achieved to the 80 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:01.680 zodiacs three pin forty cipher, huge news about two years ago. 81 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.120 In December twenty twenty when a group of three individuals 82 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:07.399 spent a lot of time and a lot of computer 83 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:12.560 power and solved the cipher and made international news once 84 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:15.680 the FBI had confirmed that yes, indeed, they had solved it. 85 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:22.000 Dave Orangechuck, an American software developer, worked with two other individuals, 86 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:27.279 Sam Blake, an Australian mathematician, and Jarl Venaik, a Belgian programmer, 87 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:29.800 and the three of them, working from three sides of 88 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.519 the globe, interacted back and forth and came up with 89 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.920 ideas of how it was possible to solve the case, 90 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.920 to solve the cipher, and through group force and a 91 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.199 whole lot of ingenuity, they were able to solve it. 92 00:05:42.360 --> 00:05:46.160 Sam Blake I believe the mathematician was able to provide 93 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.240 for the other two different types of layouts that cipher 94 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:53.439 could have been displayed in. Obviously, it was just a 95 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:56.000 sheet of symbols when it arrived in the mail in 96 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:01.360 November of nineteen sixty nine, and this set of symbols 97 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:05.199 it was seventeen across by twenty long, making up three 98 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:08.120 hundred and forty characters, hence its name. It's called the 99 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:11.519 Z three forty. Obviously, the first place to start was 100 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.639 go from top to bottom, left to right, as we 101 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.759 do in our normal reading, and for forty years taking 102 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.240 a look at it in that way did not lead 103 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.519 to any results. And that was the natural way to 104 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.040 look at it, because the first cipher, the Zodiacs four 105 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:29.759 h eight, was solved in just that manner, left to right, 106 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.079 top to bottom. So SAM provided the other two with 107 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.160 as many as six hundred and fifty thousand different ways 108 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.639 of lining up the code. It's not that they looked 109 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.319 at six hundred and fifty thousand possible solutions. They looked 110 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:46.319 at six hundred and fifty thousand possible layouts. So they 111 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:50.879 tried every second character, every third character, going back to front, 112 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:54.160 going bottom to top. What ended up being the correct 113 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:57.519 solution was to divide it up into three chunks, the 114 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.839 first nine lines, the second nine line, and then the 115 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:05.279 last two lines, and then go diagonally from the top 116 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.360 to down to the right, and when you hit the bottom, 117 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.279 you look back at the top, and so you get 118 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.720 this diagonal pattern within each one of the three boxes. 119 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:18.720 And then so for each one of these layouts that 120 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:23.959 SAM provided, they set computer program or programs to run 121 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.040 and to look at exactly what the translation might be 122 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.399 if it was if it was done in that layout. 123 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.279 So essentially they looked at billions and billions and billions 124 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:38.240 of possible solutions to the cipher, and then what they 125 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.000 had to do was they had to go through them 126 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:43.439 and look for anything that looked interesting, anything that looked promising. 127 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.879 And one day in December of twenty twenty, David was 128 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.639 looking through it and he found the phrase I don't 129 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.439 want to go to the gas chamber or some portion 130 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.160 of that, and he goes, holy cow, this is rather significant, 131 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:00.439 and so he alerted the other two. We had them, 132 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.519 tried different things, tried different ways, believe they had it correct, 133 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:08.160 but it wasn't matching up exactly. Turns out that Zodiac 134 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:11.439 made an error in the second box and skipped the line, 135 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.360 and so they had to look at other permutations, and 136 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:16.879 then the last box, the last two lines. Instead of 137 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.680 going diagonally, they went bottom to top, right to left, 138 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:24.279 and once they put it all together, they found the 139 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.399 entire solution and presented it to the FBI, who said, oh, 140 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:30.240 my goodness, yes, you have solved it. 141 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:34.519 Now, for I'd like to ask the question solving of 142 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.720 this three P forty cipher, What does the solving of 143 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.519 the cipher. How does it contribute to your ideas that 144 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:44.720 Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac are one and the same. 145 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:49.559 The solution was absolutely monumental because it was the first 146 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:53.080 communication from the Zodiac in nearly forty years. You know, 147 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.279 it was sent back in nineteen sixty nine, but it 148 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.159 was never solved until then. I'd like to read the 149 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:02.240 actual solution that might be of interest to your viewers. 150 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:04.679 I hope you were having lots of fun and trying 151 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:07.240 to catch me that wasn't me on the TV show, 152 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:09.679 which brings up a point about me. I am not 153 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:12.639 afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me 154 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:15.679 to Paradise all the sooner because I now have enough 155 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:18.799 slaves to work for me, where everyone else has nothing 156 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.799 when they reach Paradise, so they are afraid of death. 157 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:25.200 I am not afraid because I know that my new 158 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:29.279 life will be an easy one. In Paradise, life is death. 159 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:32.600 So I was kind of surprised by the initial reaction 160 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.120 of a lot of Zodiac researchers. They read through that 161 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.320 solution and said, oh, it says nothing, there's nothing new here, 162 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:43.639 And I guess they were expecting the Zodiac to present 163 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:45.879 his full name, so that they could say, hey, this 164 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.200 case has been solved. Obviously, the Zodiac did not do that. 165 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.720 But I came to a very different conclusion. I realized 166 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.080 that there was a whole lot of information in here, 167 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:57.679 but it would take some time to dig out. And 168 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:00.720 I'm still waiting for all of it to be dugout 169 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.720 or to have time to do the work myself. But 170 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:08.639 the exact vocabulary used, the idea is presented the disyntax, 171 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.240 all of that speaks to the character of the person 172 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.159 who put it together. One thing I noticed on message 173 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.840 boards is within the next couple weeks of it being solved, 174 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.480 a number of individuals are saying, gee, it looks like 175 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.320 the Zodiac is a little bit more intelligent than I 176 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.840 thought he was. So they were starting to look for 177 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:31.080 a more scholarly intelligent individual, not only because of the 178 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:34.279 way that the cipher was constructed obviously shows a certain 179 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:37.240 amount of intelligence, but also the way of relating, in 180 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.440 the way of communicating so to me, I noticed right 181 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.320 away the phrase I am not afraid of the gas 182 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.240 chamber kind of an unusual statement. Who can actually say 183 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.000 that most criminals attempt not to get caught? Most criminals 184 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.399 are afraid of being put to death as a result 185 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.720 of their crimes. But this individual said he was not 186 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.559 afraid of the gas chamber. And incidentally, this was as 187 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.840 a response to anonymous person calling into Jim Dunbar in 188 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.960 the AM San Francisco television show back in nineteen sixty nine, 189 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.519 in which this person, who purportedly was the Zodiac but 190 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.279 was ruled not to have been, said I'm afraid of 191 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.200 the gas chamber. So this led the Zodiac to send 192 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.240 this message saying that I'm not afraid of the gas chamber. 193 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:22.720 The one Seria killer that I know of who is 194 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.480 not afraid of the gas chamber. As Ted Kazinski, he 195 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:29.679 has repeatedly said he would rather die than to be 196 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:34.799 tried in court using a insanity defense. In his trial 197 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:39.360 for the unibomb case, his defense team decided that the 198 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:42.080 only way to save his life from execution was to 199 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:46.080 put up an insanity defense, something that Kazinsky was absolutely 200 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.759 against using. In fact, they led him on to believe 201 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.120 that they weren't going to do that. They even had 202 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:53.639 him agree to meet with a psychologist and answer a 203 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:56.440 lot of questions and get a psychological profile of him 204 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:59.759 in an effort to prove that he was not in 205 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:03.159 saying was not mentally ill. All the while they had 206 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:06.240 decided that they were going to put up an insanity 207 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.879 defense and say, look at the small cabin this guy 208 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:13.120 was living in, look at his reclusive lifestyle. Obviously, something 209 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.799 obviously he slipped a cog from being a graduate of 210 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:21.240 Harvard and a PhD professor at UC Berkeley. Something obviously 211 00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:25.679 went wrong. So Kazinsky, because he wanted to stand behind 212 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.000 the words of his manifesto, absolutely rejected any notion that 213 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.320 he was mentally ill and said he would rather be executed. 214 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:34.159 In fact, some people thought that he was going to 215 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:37.360 go through a show trial of a show trial to 216 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:39.879 put up his beliefs in front of the world and 217 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.639 have everybody talking about them, knowing full well that he 218 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.960 would probably be found guilty and be sentenced to death. 219 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:49.159 So that's one indication from that solution of the cipher 220 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.120 that Kazinski may indeed have been involved in it. 221 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.000 You say, you're right that the coding is a natural 222 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:01.000 thing for mathematicians, and the FBI when the unibomber was 223 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:05.679 arrested missed many many things that you purpored in your 224 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.639 book show and demonstrate let's talk about when he is 225 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:14.840 arrested the unibomber, the cabin is searched, and evidence to 226 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.759 prove that the unibomber is who he is is their 227 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:21.879 main goal. Tell us about the cabin and the contents, 228 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.799 what was actually found in that cabin, and then what 229 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.360 has happened with the contents of that cabin since. 230 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:35.320 Okay, in April of ninety six, he was arrested outside 231 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:38.120 of his cabin. He was lured out on a pretense 232 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.720 that some surveyors were looking at the land, and he 233 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.600 was grabbed and wrestled to the ground and arrested. They 234 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.159 found within his cabin booby trapped cabin. He hadn't had 235 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:51.159 enough time to set the booby trap, but if he 236 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.519 had set the booby trap, which apparently he did, every 237 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.240 time he left the cabin, anybody going through the front 238 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.519 door would blow up the cabin and blow up its contents, 239 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.279 ssumably protecting him from identification and a lot of his 240 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:06.159 criminal activity. There was so much stuff in his tiny 241 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.600 cabin that it took the FBI a week to cart 242 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.799 it all out and catalog it. And I found a 243 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:14.559 number of things that I found fascinating and potentially tying 244 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.360 him into being to being the Zodiac serial killer. Should 245 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.919 be noted that nothing found within the cabin portrayed a 246 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.960 direct link, no cold from the Zodiac days, or no 247 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.879 weapon that looks suspicious for being used earlier, which which 248 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.240 may not be surprising because it was twenty five years later, 249 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.799 more than twenty five years later than the Zodiac murders, 250 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:40.480 so presumably everything had been gotten rid of by then. However, 251 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:44.039 I noticed three categories of items within the cabin that 252 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:49.360 were found pointed to the Zodiac. One was codes. Ted 253 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:53.039 Kazinski was very active in creating codes. Much of his 254 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:57.559 journal material was encoded, especially the more sensitive items, so 255 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.720 that nobody would be able to understand what he was 256 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.879 putting together. In fact, the FBI said that they had 257 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.039 not seen such complicated codes since the height of the 258 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.679 Cold War, and that at least one of the codes 259 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.960 would never have been cracked if it weren't for the 260 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.240 fact that a key to that code was also found 261 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:18.600 within the cabin. So codes pretty significant part of who 262 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.039 the Zodiac was. He sent four codes in letters over 263 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:25.840 the course of his career in California. The second item 264 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:31.200 was obviously bombs. Ted Kazinski as the Unibomber sent and 265 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.720 set sixteen bombs over the course of his career as 266 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:40.159 the Unibomber. The Zodiac twice included a code and included 267 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.360 a bomb diagram in one of his letters. The first 268 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.279 one was kind of a crude bomb, and the second 269 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:48.600 one was a diagram of an improved design for a bomb, 270 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.000 which is exactly what Kazinski did. Over the course of 271 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.279 his career. He diagrammed a lot of bombs. In fact, 272 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.720 he did more than five hundred tests on bombs and 273 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:01.919 bomb creations while he was in Montane learning to improve 274 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:07.480 the strength and lightness and weightlessness of his creations. So 275 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.840 and the other was disguises. Ted Kazinski was very adept 276 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:16.240 at using disguises to disguise his looks disguise his footprints. 277 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.000 They found within his cabin a pair of shoes that 278 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.879 was his size shoes, but under the bottom of those 279 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.759 shoes were glued the soles of smaller shoes, so that 280 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:28.639 Ted could walk around in the snow or walk around 281 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.879 in the dirt and leave footprints that were actually smaller 282 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:35.120 than his feet. Visual disguises that he used, he often 283 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.639 put cotton balls in his up inside his lip to 284 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.679 change the shape of his face. He cut his hair, 285 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:43.919 he grew out his hair, he grew his beard, he 286 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.159 trimmed his beard. He did a whole lot of different 287 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.879 things to appear different to other people whenever he was 288 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.879 involved in his criminal activities. But what he's most known 289 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.960 for is obviously the sweatshirt and the sunglasses that he wore, 290 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.360 the hooded sweatshirt and the sunglasses he wore the time 291 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:02.799 that he was cited, and a composite picture was made 292 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.680 of him. The Zodiac at Lake Barry Essa September twenty seven, 293 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:11.039 nineteen sixty nine, wore a hood and sunglasses as a disguise. 294 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.079 So if you went to any serial killer, and any 295 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.279 of the known serial killers that we've been aware of 296 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.319 that have been caught, went into their home and looked 297 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:24.759 to find items in their home, none of them would 298 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:29.880 you have found disguises and codes and bombs, which is 299 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.519 exactly what you would have expected to find if you 300 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.400 were looking at the contents of the home of the 301 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:37.640 Zodiac serial killer. 302 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.079 When you talk about bombs, you talk about the diagrams 303 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:45.319 that the Zodiac sent and then the actual bombs that 304 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.559 the unibomber sent and created. But these diagrams were of 305 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.559 a yet to be constructed bomb. To cement your ideas, 306 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.440 tell us as you write the comparison of the diagrams 307 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.880 verse the actual bombs made the similarities what you actually 308 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:06.559 saw when you compare the two. 309 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.880 In some ways, there are very different bombs. The Zodiac 310 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.319 drew diagrams of a roadside bomb, something that would detonate 311 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.400 when a bus drove by. Right, it was never proved 312 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.400 to have been created, In fact, may never have been created. 313 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:24.079 I suspect it was never created. My suspicion is that 314 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:29.160 Ted Kazinski, very somebody who was driven by obsession and compulsion, 315 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.240 sent these diagrams out as the Zodiac, knowing that he 316 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.000 would never build them, knowing that he probably didn't have 317 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.920 the technical know how to actually construct them, which the 318 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.240 law enforcement said was in theory they could be done, 319 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.400 but practically it'd be very difficult to get everything lined 320 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.880 up exactly as he had in the diagrams. My suspicion 321 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.480 is that Kazinski, being so obsessive, it bothered him that 322 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.559 he could send out diagrams and threaten people but couldn't 323 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.039 actually do anything about it. I believe that set in 324 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:02.119 motion for him a quest to actually be able to 325 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.839 provide a bomb and kill somebody with a bomb, to 326 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.559 say to the people of the San Francisco Bay area, 327 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.680 if not just himself, yes I can do this. So 328 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.440 bombs are very different in nature, but there are two 329 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:19.000 very distinct items that do translate from the Zodiac's bombs 330 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:23.440 to Ted Kazinski's bombs. Number one is the use of 331 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.599 dual circuits. Both of the Diagrams and the Zodiac bombs 332 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:31.920 have dual circuits, or a circuit used for two uses. 333 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.559 In other words, there's a backup, something is more complex 334 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:39.440 than a simple single circuit. The Unibomber bombs, there were 335 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:43.440 redundancies built into the bombs. In fact, that's what the 336 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.359 FBI used to be able to identify one Unibomber bomb 337 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:50.960 to the next. In addition to obviously the Ted Kazinski 338 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.319 claiming credit for them and leaving a little tag inside 339 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:58.559 many of them identifying FC, the group that he purported 340 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:01.839 to represent. His use of dual circuits is something that's 341 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.759 not very well known, not very common within the bomb 342 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.079 constructing community. In fact, he used pipe bombs, and he 343 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.279 actually drilled two holes in the pipes and had two 344 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:16.200 wires going through some of these pipe bombs, so that 345 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.440 if one didn't detonate the device, the other one would 346 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.440 very unusual, very not seen very often. And then the 347 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.839 other item that connected the two bombs was the idea 348 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.799 that each one of them was a passive detonation device. 349 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:34.160 In other words, there was no timer for any of 350 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.559 these Zodiac bombs or the unibomber bombs that were used 351 00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.319 to detonate the bomb at a certain time. There was 352 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.920 no fuse that had to be lit. Every one of 353 00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:48.640 the bombs of the two Zodiac diagrams and Ted Kaczynski's 354 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.799 sixteen bombs, all of them were set in place and 355 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.720 remained motionless until acted upon by an outside force. In 356 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.559 one instance, it was set up to an altimeter barometer 357 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.359 so that when the bomb, which was on the in 358 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.480 the cargo of an airplane, when it achieved about three 359 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.960 thousand feet of elevation caused the bomb to detonate. In 360 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.160 the other cases, somebody had to pick up the bomb 361 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.920 or open the package. It had to be acted upon 362 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:20.440 from an outside force to detonate. This, too, is not rare, 363 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.359 but it's a characteristic of both the Zodiac bombs and 364 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:24.920 Ted Kazinski's. 365 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:26.799 Bombs, as you write in the book, tell us the 366 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:31.640 premise of and the impetus for the Zodiac to end 367 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:36.079 his reign of terror and for the Unibomber to begin. 368 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.119 And when critics of your theory of the idea that 369 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.720 Kazinsky Teed Kazinski is a Zodiac, when they look at 370 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.440 information that bolsters their argument that they can't be the same, 371 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.960 what is the information, what is the evidence that you 372 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.480 present for them the similarities and for the proof that 373 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:57.519 they are one and the same. 374 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.000 Well, first of all, I should say that I'm very 375 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.920 pathetic to people who don't make the connection, because when 376 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:05.839 I first heard the idea that Ted Kazinski could be 377 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.599 the Zodiac, I thought it was absolutely foolish. I thought 378 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.200 it was stupid. In fact, it took me a second 379 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.640 to figure out why anybody would even think Ted Kazinski, 380 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.119 the Unibomber, was also the Zodiac. And then I realized, oh, yeah, bombs. 381 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.359 The Zodiac threatened with bombs, and Ted Kazinski actually used bombs. 382 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.160 But beyond that, I really couldn't see anything and thought 383 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:27.319 it was a silly idea. But as I came to 384 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:30.839 understand Ted Kazinski, I realized that a lot of what 385 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.759 a lot of the information about him floating around and 386 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:39.160 generally accepted within society is completely false. Ted Kazinsky is 387 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:41.480 an absolute liar. Made a list of some of the 388 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:46.400 things he's not. First and foremost against technology. It's true 389 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:50.559 that he was against technology, and he wrote his manifesto 390 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:54.279 decrying the effects of technology in the world. But that's 391 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.720 not why he killed. And the proof of that is 392 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.519 that he killed in the attack for sixteen years before 393 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.799 saying anything about being against technology. He said he didn't 394 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.160 say anything because he wanted to make sure that murder 395 00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.599 had been taken place so that his words would be 396 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:13.680 taken seriously. Well, he killed two people and still said 397 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.839 nothing about technology. It wasn't until he killed a third 398 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.240 person and got weary of what he was doing that 399 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.480 he put together his manifesto, which, in the words of 400 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.480 John Douglas and others, that manifesto is merely rationalization for 401 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.240