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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 5: The solution to the Zodiac serial killer case is as
Speaker 5: clear as it is controversial. One man, a letter writer, bombmaker,
Speaker 5: and code creator, was living in the area at the
Speaker 5: time of the Zodiac murders, had easy access to all
Speaker 5: the crime scenes, and had a psychotic break at the
Speaker 5: time the Zodiac began his heinous murder campaign. A genius
Speaker 5: level mathematician, he was clever enough to disguise his handwriting,
Speaker 5: avoid leaving evidence like fingerprints, and produced diabolically difficult ciphers
Speaker 5: to taunt the police and the public with his identity
Speaker 5: that lurked just on the other side of his impossibly
Speaker 5: difficult codes. That man is Theodore J. Kazinsky, a product
Speaker 5: of the mk Ultra project at Harvard University. Kazinski was
Speaker 5: one of the youngest mathematics professors in UC Berkeley history,
Speaker 5: a position he despised. Kazinski committed his first murder as
Speaker 5: a Zodiac over winter break nineteen sixty eight, and his
Speaker 5: second just after resigning his post as professor in July
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty nine. His criminal signature, letter writing, and code
Speaker 5: making continued unabated across both of his criminal careers as
Speaker 5: a Zodiac and Unibomber. Exposed takes the reader through all
Speaker 5: the evidence presented in the first two books, Hunted and Profile,
Speaker 5: and systematically connects the Zodiac and Unibomber cases through handwriting, codes, locations, literature,
Speaker 5: cultural references, and other unexpected details. Exposed makes it impossible
Speaker 5: to dismiss Kazinski as the Zodiac, one of the most
Speaker 5: evil serial killers of all time. The book that we're
Speaker 5: featuring this evening is Exposed, The Zodiac Revealed the Zodiac
Speaker 5: serial Killer with my special guest journalist and author, doctor
Speaker 5: Mark Hewitt. Welcome back to the program and thank you
Speaker 5: so much for this interview, doctor Mark Hewitt.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Dan, thank you for having me again.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. I forgot to mention you are
Speaker 5: a the pre eminent Zodiac researcher at one of the
Speaker 5: preeminent Zodiac researchers in the world today. Let's talk about
Speaker 5: this reason for our interview and the reissue you say,
Speaker 5: revised and expanded editions of the three books related to
Speaker 5: the Zodiac. Tell us about this September twenty seventh release
Speaker 5: or reissue with the revised and expanded versions of these books.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about this reissue.
Speaker 1: Sure September twenty seven. We reissued the three books because
Speaker 1: of updates in the case and updates that I've been
Speaker 1: receiving from readers. In each one of the books, I say,
Speaker 1: we try as hard as possible to make sure that
Speaker 1: everything is absolutely correct, but if something is not correct,
Speaker 1: please bring it to our attention. So we have had
Speaker 1: to revise a couple of times. It's actually this here
Speaker 1: in twenty and twenty two. It's the third edition of
Speaker 1: Hunted and the second edition of both Profiled and Exposed.
Speaker 1: The biggest reason for updating it at this time was
Speaker 1: as a result of the new development in the case,
Speaker 1: and that was the solution that was achieved to the
Speaker 1: zodiacs three pin forty cipher, huge news about two years ago.
Speaker 1: In December twenty twenty when a group of three individuals
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time and a lot of computer
Speaker 1: power and solved the cipher and made international news once
Speaker 1: the FBI had confirmed that yes, indeed, they had solved it.
Speaker 1: Dave Orangechuck, an American software developer, worked with two other individuals,
Speaker 1: Sam Blake, an Australian mathematician, and Jarl Venaik, a Belgian programmer,
Speaker 1: and the three of them, working from three sides of
Speaker 1: the globe, interacted back and forth and came up with
Speaker 1: ideas of how it was possible to solve the case,
Speaker 1: to solve the cipher, and through group force and a
Speaker 1: whole lot of ingenuity, they were able to solve it.
Speaker 1: Sam Blake I believe the mathematician was able to provide
Speaker 1: for the other two different types of layouts that cipher
Speaker 1: could have been displayed in. Obviously, it was just a
Speaker 1: sheet of symbols when it arrived in the mail in
Speaker 1: November of nineteen sixty nine, and this set of symbols
Speaker 1: it was seventeen across by twenty long, making up three
Speaker 1: hundred and forty characters, hence its name. It's called the
Speaker 1: Z three forty. Obviously, the first place to start was
Speaker 1: go from top to bottom, left to right, as we
Speaker 1: do in our normal reading, and for forty years taking
Speaker 1: a look at it in that way did not lead
Speaker 1: to any results. And that was the natural way to
Speaker 1: look at it, because the first cipher, the Zodiacs four
Speaker 1: h eight, was solved in just that manner, left to right,
Speaker 1: top to bottom. So SAM provided the other two with
Speaker 1: as many as six hundred and fifty thousand different ways
Speaker 1: of lining up the code. It's not that they looked
Speaker 1: at six hundred and fifty thousand possible solutions. They looked
Speaker 1: at six hundred and fifty thousand possible layouts. So they
Speaker 1: tried every second character, every third character, going back to front,
Speaker 1: going bottom to top. What ended up being the correct
Speaker 1: solution was to divide it up into three chunks, the
Speaker 1: first nine lines, the second nine line, and then the
Speaker 1: last two lines, and then go diagonally from the top
Speaker 1: to down to the right, and when you hit the bottom,
Speaker 1: you look back at the top, and so you get
Speaker 1: this diagonal pattern within each one of the three boxes.
Speaker 1: And then so for each one of these layouts that
Speaker 1: SAM provided, they set computer program or programs to run
Speaker 1: and to look at exactly what the translation might be
Speaker 1: if it was if it was done in that layout.
Speaker 1: So essentially they looked at billions and billions and billions
Speaker 1: of possible solutions to the cipher, and then what they
Speaker 1: had to do was they had to go through them
Speaker 1: and look for anything that looked interesting, anything that looked promising.
Speaker 1: And one day in December of twenty twenty, David was
Speaker 1: looking through it and he found the phrase I don't
Speaker 1: want to go to the gas chamber or some portion
Speaker 1: of that, and he goes, holy cow, this is rather significant,
Speaker 1: and so he alerted the other two. We had them,
Speaker 1: tried different things, tried different ways, believe they had it correct,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't matching up exactly. Turns out that Zodiac
Speaker 1: made an error in the second box and skipped the line,
Speaker 1: and so they had to look at other permutations, and
Speaker 1: then the last box, the last two lines. Instead of
Speaker 1: going diagonally, they went bottom to top, right to left,
Speaker 1: and once they put it all together, they found the
Speaker 1: entire solution and presented it to the FBI, who said, oh,
Speaker 1: my goodness, yes, you have solved it.
Speaker 5: Now, for I'd like to ask the question solving of
Speaker 5: this three P forty cipher, What does the solving of
Speaker 5: the cipher. How does it contribute to your ideas that
Speaker 5: Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac are one and the same.
Speaker 1: The solution was absolutely monumental because it was the first
Speaker 1: communication from the Zodiac in nearly forty years. You know,
Speaker 1: it was sent back in nineteen sixty nine, but it
Speaker 1: was never solved until then. I'd like to read the
Speaker 1: actual solution that might be of interest to your viewers.
Speaker 1: I hope you were having lots of fun and trying
Speaker 1: to catch me that wasn't me on the TV show,
Speaker 1: which brings up a point about me. I am not
Speaker 1: afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me
Speaker 1: to Paradise all the sooner because I now have enough
Speaker 1: slaves to work for me, where everyone else has nothing
Speaker 1: when they reach Paradise, so they are afraid of death.
Speaker 1: I am not afraid because I know that my new
Speaker 1: life will be an easy one. In Paradise, life is death.
Speaker 1: So I was kind of surprised by the initial reaction
Speaker 1: of a lot of Zodiac researchers. They read through that
Speaker 1: solution and said, oh, it says nothing, there's nothing new here,
Speaker 1: And I guess they were expecting the Zodiac to present
Speaker 1: his full name, so that they could say, hey, this
Speaker 1: case has been solved. Obviously, the Zodiac did not do that.
Speaker 1: But I came to a very different conclusion. I realized
Speaker 1: that there was a whole lot of information in here,
Speaker 1: but it would take some time to dig out. And
Speaker 1: I'm still waiting for all of it to be dugout
Speaker 1: or to have time to do the work myself. But
Speaker 1: the exact vocabulary used, the idea is presented the disyntax,
Speaker 1: all of that speaks to the character of the person
Speaker 1: who put it together. One thing I noticed on message
Speaker 1: boards is within the next couple weeks of it being solved,
Speaker 1: a number of individuals are saying, gee, it looks like
Speaker 1: the Zodiac is a little bit more intelligent than I
Speaker 1: thought he was. So they were starting to look for
Speaker 1: a more scholarly intelligent individual, not only because of the
Speaker 1: way that the cipher was constructed obviously shows a certain
Speaker 1: amount of intelligence, but also the way of relating, in
Speaker 1: the way of communicating so to me, I noticed right
Speaker 1: away the phrase I am not afraid of the gas
Speaker 1: chamber kind of an unusual statement. Who can actually say
Speaker 1: that most criminals attempt not to get caught? Most criminals
Speaker 1: are afraid of being put to death as a result
Speaker 1: of their crimes. But this individual said he was not
Speaker 1: afraid of the gas chamber. And incidentally, this was as
Speaker 1: a response to anonymous person calling into Jim Dunbar in
Speaker 1: the AM San Francisco television show back in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 1: in which this person, who purportedly was the Zodiac but
Speaker 1: was ruled not to have been, said I'm afraid of
Speaker 1: the gas chamber. So this led the Zodiac to send
Speaker 1: this message saying that I'm not afraid of the gas chamber.
Speaker 1: The one Seria killer that I know of who is
Speaker 1: not afraid of the gas chamber. As Ted Kazinski, he
Speaker 1: has repeatedly said he would rather die than to be
Speaker 1: tried in court using a insanity defense. In his trial
Speaker 1: for the unibomb case, his defense team decided that the
Speaker 1: only way to save his life from execution was to
Speaker 1: put up an insanity defense, something that Kazinsky was absolutely
Speaker 1: against using. In fact, they led him on to believe
Speaker 1: that they weren't going to do that. They even had
Speaker 1: him agree to meet with a psychologist and answer a
Speaker 1: lot of questions and get a psychological profile of him
Speaker 1: in an effort to prove that he was not in
Speaker 1: saying was not mentally ill. All the while they had
Speaker 1: decided that they were going to put up an insanity
Speaker 1: defense and say, look at the small cabin this guy
Speaker 1: was living in, look at his reclusive lifestyle. Obviously, something
Speaker 1: obviously he slipped a cog from being a graduate of
Speaker 1: Harvard and a PhD professor at UC Berkeley. Something obviously
Speaker 1: went wrong. So Kazinsky, because he wanted to stand behind
Speaker 1: the words of his manifesto, absolutely rejected any notion that
Speaker 1: he was mentally ill and said he would rather be executed.
Speaker 1: In fact, some people thought that he was going to
Speaker 1: go through a show trial of a show trial to
Speaker 1: put up his beliefs in front of the world and
Speaker 1: have everybody talking about them, knowing full well that he
Speaker 1: would probably be found guilty and be sentenced to death.
Speaker 1: So that's one indication from that solution of the cipher
Speaker 1: that Kazinski may indeed have been involved in it.
Speaker 5: You say, you're right that the coding is a natural
Speaker 5: thing for mathematicians, and the FBI when the unibomber was
Speaker 5: arrested missed many many things that you purpored in your
Speaker 5: book show and demonstrate let's talk about when he is
Speaker 5: arrested the unibomber, the cabin is searched, and evidence to
Speaker 5: prove that the unibomber is who he is is their
Speaker 5: main goal. Tell us about the cabin and the contents,
Speaker 5: what was actually found in that cabin, and then what
Speaker 5: has happened with the contents of that cabin since.
Speaker 1: Okay, in April of ninety six, he was arrested outside
Speaker 1: of his cabin. He was lured out on a pretense
Speaker 1: that some surveyors were looking at the land, and he
Speaker 1: was grabbed and wrestled to the ground and arrested. They
Speaker 1: found within his cabin booby trapped cabin. He hadn't had
Speaker 1: enough time to set the booby trap, but if he
Speaker 1: had set the booby trap, which apparently he did, every
Speaker 1: time he left the cabin, anybody going through the front
Speaker 1: door would blow up the cabin and blow up its contents,
Speaker 1: ssumably protecting him from identification and a lot of his
Speaker 1: criminal activity. There was so much stuff in his tiny
Speaker 1: cabin that it took the FBI a week to cart
Speaker 1: it all out and catalog it. And I found a
Speaker 1: number of things that I found fascinating and potentially tying
Speaker 1: him into being to being the Zodiac serial killer. Should
Speaker 1: be noted that nothing found within the cabin portrayed a
Speaker 1: direct link, no cold from the Zodiac days, or no
Speaker 1: weapon that looks suspicious for being used earlier, which which
Speaker 1: may not be surprising because it was twenty five years later,
Speaker 1: more than twenty five years later than the Zodiac murders,
Speaker 1: so presumably everything had been gotten rid of by then. However,
Speaker 1: I noticed three categories of items within the cabin that
Speaker 1: were found pointed to the Zodiac. One was codes. Ted
Speaker 1: Kazinski was very active in creating codes. Much of his
Speaker 1: journal material was encoded, especially the more sensitive items, so
Speaker 1: that nobody would be able to understand what he was
Speaker 1: putting together. In fact, the FBI said that they had
Speaker 1: not seen such complicated codes since the height of the
Speaker 1: Cold War, and that at least one of the codes
Speaker 1: would never have been cracked if it weren't for the
Speaker 1: fact that a key to that code was also found
Speaker 1: within the cabin. So codes pretty significant part of who
Speaker 1: the Zodiac was. He sent four codes in letters over
Speaker 1: the course of his career in California. The second item
Speaker 1: was obviously bombs. Ted Kazinski as the Unibomber sent and
Speaker 1: set sixteen bombs over the course of his career as
Speaker 1: the Unibomber. The Zodiac twice included a code and included
Speaker 1: a bomb diagram in one of his letters. The first
Speaker 1: one was kind of a crude bomb, and the second
Speaker 1: one was a diagram of an improved design for a bomb,
Speaker 1: which is exactly what Kazinski did. Over the course of
Speaker 1: his career. He diagrammed a lot of bombs. In fact,
Speaker 1: he did more than five hundred tests on bombs and
Speaker 1: bomb creations while he was in Montane learning to improve
Speaker 1: the strength and lightness and weightlessness of his creations. So
Speaker 1: and the other was disguises. Ted Kazinski was very adept
Speaker 1: at using disguises to disguise his looks disguise his footprints.
Speaker 1: They found within his cabin a pair of shoes that
Speaker 1: was his size shoes, but under the bottom of those
Speaker 1: shoes were glued the soles of smaller shoes, so that
Speaker 1: Ted could walk around in the snow or walk around
Speaker 1: in the dirt and leave footprints that were actually smaller
Speaker 1: than his feet. Visual disguises that he used, he often
Speaker 1: put cotton balls in his up inside his lip to
Speaker 1: change the shape of his face. He cut his hair,
Speaker 1: he grew out his hair, he grew his beard, he
Speaker 1: trimmed his beard. He did a whole lot of different
Speaker 1: things to appear different to other people whenever he was
Speaker 1: involved in his criminal activities. But what he's most known
Speaker 1: for is obviously the sweatshirt and the sunglasses that he wore,
Speaker 1: the hooded sweatshirt and the sunglasses he wore the time
Speaker 1: that he was cited, and a composite picture was made
Speaker 1: of him. The Zodiac at Lake Barry Essa September twenty seven,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, wore a hood and sunglasses as a disguise.
Speaker 1: So if you went to any serial killer, and any
Speaker 1: of the known serial killers that we've been aware of
Speaker 1: that have been caught, went into their home and looked
Speaker 1: to find items in their home, none of them would
Speaker 1: you have found disguises and codes and bombs, which is
Speaker 1: exactly what you would have expected to find if you
Speaker 1: were looking at the contents of the home of the
Speaker 1: Zodiac serial killer.
Speaker 5: When you talk about bombs, you talk about the diagrams
Speaker 5: that the Zodiac sent and then the actual bombs that
Speaker 5: the unibomber sent and created. But these diagrams were of
Speaker 5: a yet to be constructed bomb. To cement your ideas,
Speaker 5: tell us as you write the comparison of the diagrams
Speaker 5: verse the actual bombs made the similarities what you actually
Speaker 5: saw when you compare the two.
Speaker 1: In some ways, there are very different bombs. The Zodiac
Speaker 1: drew diagrams of a roadside bomb, something that would detonate
Speaker 1: when a bus drove by. Right, it was never proved
Speaker 1: to have been created, In fact, may never have been created.
Speaker 1: I suspect it was never created. My suspicion is that
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski, very somebody who was driven by obsession and compulsion,
Speaker 1: sent these diagrams out as the Zodiac, knowing that he
Speaker 1: would never build them, knowing that he probably didn't have
Speaker 1: the technical know how to actually construct them, which the
Speaker 1: law enforcement said was in theory they could be done,
Speaker 1: but practically it'd be very difficult to get everything lined
Speaker 1: up exactly as he had in the diagrams. My suspicion
Speaker 1: is that Kazinski, being so obsessive, it bothered him that
Speaker 1: he could send out diagrams and threaten people but couldn't
Speaker 1: actually do anything about it. I believe that set in
Speaker 1: motion for him a quest to actually be able to
Speaker 1: provide a bomb and kill somebody with a bomb, to
Speaker 1: say to the people of the San Francisco Bay area,
Speaker 1: if not just himself, yes I can do this. So
Speaker 1: bombs are very different in nature, but there are two
Speaker 1: very distinct items that do translate from the Zodiac's bombs
Speaker 1: to Ted Kazinski's bombs. Number one is the use of
Speaker 1: dual circuits. Both of the Diagrams and the Zodiac bombs
Speaker 1: have dual circuits, or a circuit used for two uses.
Speaker 1: In other words, there's a backup, something is more complex
Speaker 1: than a simple single circuit. The Unibomber bombs, there were
Speaker 1: redundancies built into the bombs. In fact, that's what the
Speaker 1: FBI used to be able to identify one Unibomber bomb
Speaker 1: to the next. In addition to obviously the Ted Kazinski
Speaker 1: claiming credit for them and leaving a little tag inside
Speaker 1: many of them identifying FC, the group that he purported
Speaker 1: to represent. His use of dual circuits is something that's
Speaker 1: not very well known, not very common within the bomb
Speaker 1: constructing community. In fact, he used pipe bombs, and he
Speaker 1: actually drilled two holes in the pipes and had two
Speaker 1: wires going through some of these pipe bombs, so that
Speaker 1: if one didn't detonate the device, the other one would
Speaker 1: very unusual, very not seen very often. And then the
Speaker 1: other item that connected the two bombs was the idea
Speaker 1: that each one of them was a passive detonation device.
Speaker 1: In other words, there was no timer for any of
Speaker 1: these Zodiac bombs or the unibomber bombs that were used
Speaker 1: to detonate the bomb at a certain time. There was
Speaker 1: no fuse that had to be lit. Every one of
Speaker 1: the bombs of the two Zodiac diagrams and Ted Kaczynski's
Speaker 1: sixteen bombs, all of them were set in place and
Speaker 1: remained motionless until acted upon by an outside force. In
Speaker 1: one instance, it was set up to an altimeter barometer
Speaker 1: so that when the bomb, which was on the in
Speaker 1: the cargo of an airplane, when it achieved about three
Speaker 1: thousand feet of elevation caused the bomb to detonate. In
Speaker 1: the other cases, somebody had to pick up the bomb
Speaker 1: or open the package. It had to be acted upon
Speaker 1: from an outside force to detonate. This, too, is not rare,
Speaker 1: but it's a characteristic of both the Zodiac bombs and
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski's.
Speaker 5: Bombs, as you write in the book, tell us the
Speaker 5: premise of and the impetus for the Zodiac to end
Speaker 5: his reign of terror and for the Unibomber to begin.
Speaker 5: And when critics of your theory of the idea that
Speaker 5: Kazinsky Teed Kazinski is a Zodiac, when they look at
Speaker 5: information that bolsters their argument that they can't be the same,
Speaker 5: what is the information, what is the evidence that you
Speaker 5: present for them the similarities and for the proof that
Speaker 5: they are one and the same.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I should say that I'm very
Speaker 1: pathetic to people who don't make the connection, because when
Speaker 1: I first heard the idea that Ted Kazinski could be
Speaker 1: the Zodiac, I thought it was absolutely foolish. I thought
Speaker 1: it was stupid. In fact, it took me a second
Speaker 1: to figure out why anybody would even think Ted Kazinski,
Speaker 1: the Unibomber, was also the Zodiac. And then I realized, oh, yeah, bombs.
Speaker 1: The Zodiac threatened with bombs, and Ted Kazinski actually used bombs.
Speaker 1: But beyond that, I really couldn't see anything and thought
Speaker 1: it was a silly idea. But as I came to
Speaker 1: understand Ted Kazinski, I realized that a lot of what
Speaker 1: a lot of the information about him floating around and
Speaker 1: generally accepted within society is completely false. Ted Kazinsky is
Speaker 1: an absolute liar. Made a list of some of the
Speaker 1: things he's not. First and foremost against technology. It's true
Speaker 1: that he was against technology, and he wrote his manifesto
Speaker 1: decrying the effects of technology in the world. But that's
Speaker 1: not why he killed. And the proof of that is
Speaker 1: that he killed in the attack for sixteen years before
Speaker 1: saying anything about being against technology. He said he didn't
Speaker 1: say anything because he wanted to make sure that murder
Speaker 1: had been taken place so that his words would be
Speaker 1: taken seriously. Well, he killed two people and still said
Speaker 1: nothing about technology. It wasn't until he killed a third
Speaker 1: person and got weary of what he was doing that
Speaker 1: he put together his manifesto, which, in the words of
Speaker 1: John Douglas and others, that manifesto is merely rationalization for
Speaker 1: doing what he did. The truth is Ted Kazenski killed
Speaker 1: people because he liked killing people. He was, first and
Speaker 1: foremost a serial killer. He claimed that he attacked people
Speaker 1: only in the heart science as well, that wasn't true.
Speaker 1: There were a couple of his victims who were in
Speaker 1: the softer sciences, and his bombs were sent and were
Speaker 1: set in such a way that any innocent bystander could
Speaker 1: have been killed. The children of these people that he
Speaker 1: sent the bombs to, as secretaries who opened the packages
Speaker 1: or law enforcement officials who opened the package were injured
Speaker 1: by his creation. So saying that he had these targeted people,
Speaker 1: that they were the only type of people that he
Speaker 1: wanted to kill simply weren't wasn't true. And he said
Speaker 1: he would stop if the manifesto was published. That was
Speaker 1: not true either, because when they went into his cabin
Speaker 1: they found a fully armed bomb already to be sent,
Speaker 1: and profilers were quite certain that Ted Kazinski would continue
Speaker 1: his bombing campaign one way or the other even if
Speaker 1: the manifesto was published, as it was that somehow Kazinsky
Speaker 1: would rationalize or come up with an excuse for continuing
Speaker 1: to bomb, because killing was his first and foremost reason
Speaker 1: to be. It appears that the Zodiac stopped killing in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine because of the Pallstein event, where he
Speaker 1: shot in cold blood cab driver Paul Stein on October eleventh,
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine. Walking away from that event as he
Speaker 1: headed over to the Presidio Park, he was spotted by
Speaker 1: a couple of police officers. He may have been stopped.
Speaker 1: There's disagreements about whether he was stopped and talked to
Speaker 1: or not, but what appears to have happened is that
Speaker 1: he was extremely scared of nearly being caught only by
Speaker 1: sheer luck that the message that went out over the
Speaker 1: radio waves is that they were looking for a black perpetrator,
Speaker 1: and so the Zodiac may have been spoken to or
Speaker 1: may have just been driven past because he was white
Speaker 1: and was not apprehended at that time. That seems to
Speaker 1: have been the event that caused the Zodiac to pull
Speaker 1: back and no longer kill. As far as we know,
Speaker 1: my contention is that he was frustrated that he could
Speaker 1: no longer kill. He spent a few years, he retooled
Speaker 1: and showed up next in Montana and began his career
Speaker 1: as the Unibomber in nineteen seventy eight.
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Speaker 5: Now we just left off, were speaking about the reinvention
Speaker 5: or the Unibomber, the formation of the Unibomber, and you
Speaker 5: talk about the reasons for the Zodiac to go underground,
Speaker 5: to no longer exist, for Ted Gazinski to want to
Speaker 5: rewrite the script, and you say that the Unibomber provides
Speaker 5: him that opportunity.
Speaker 1: Can you explain well, Ted Gazinski's primary drive in life
Speaker 1: is to kill people. That's what brings him a sexual
Speaker 1: and emotional thrill, and that's the focus of his life
Speaker 1: and has been ever since nineteen sixty six. As the Zodiac.
Speaker 1: He took great pains to make sure that he was
Speaker 1: not identified. He faked his handwriting, He faked his intelligence
Speaker 1: and education. He faked his ability to write when he
Speaker 1: sent letters, so that he was able to kill within
Speaker 1: the Bay Area without bringing suspicion upon himself because for
Speaker 1: the first few murders he was actually living in the area.
Speaker 1: He was a math professor at UC Berkeley from nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty seven to nineteen sixty nine, when he decided to retool.
Speaker 1: He moved to Montana to get away from the Bay Area,
Speaker 1: to get away from his former life, to get away
Speaker 1: from a lot of things that were going on with him,
Speaker 1: both professionally and psychologically. He with his brother bought an
Speaker 1: acre plot outside of Lincoln, Montana, and constructed his tiny
Speaker 1: unibomber cabin from there. He decided, how am I going
Speaker 1: to continue my effort at killing people, but do it
Speaker 1: in such a way that I don't approach them directly.
Speaker 1: Obviously approaching people directly is an extremely high risk way
Speaker 1: of killing people. He decided to continue down his idea
Speaker 1: of constructing bombs and killing people with bombs, and that
Speaker 1: would remove himself from the vicinity of the people that
Speaker 1: he killed and make it far more difficult for law
Speaker 1: enforcement to catch him. Interestingly enough, when he was cited
Speaker 1: as the unibomber, he took a number of years off
Speaker 1: of his career of killing, and he returned. And once
Speaker 1: he returned, he never again set a bomb in place
Speaker 1: in a parking lot or anywhere else, or in a
Speaker 1: hallway outside of a classroom. He only mailed bombs through
Speaker 1: the United States Postal Service. In other words, once he
Speaker 1: was cited, once a composite picture was created of him
Speaker 1: and circulated, he got scared and he went even further underground,
Speaker 1: and from that point on only sent bombs.
Speaker 5: The philosophy that he was espousing, you say, you write
Speaker 5: that it developed in terms of what he was saying
Speaker 5: to the public and what he wanted the public and
Speaker 5: everyone to know had evolved from what you right as
Speaker 5: Zodiac seeing himself as a failure in many ways.
Speaker 1: Can you explain, Yeah, there are hints of his anti
Speaker 1: technology stance, even as the zodiac. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: elaborate to get into. It's covered within the pages of
Speaker 1: Exposed if anybody wants to look into it further. There
Speaker 1: were elements of being afraid of technology and trying to
Speaker 1: warn the public. The way he did it and the
Speaker 1: way he communicated was very poor. Obviously he wasn't picked
Speaker 1: up on by the people of the Bay Area at
Speaker 1: that time. But the manifesto in which he talks about
Speaker 1: being anti technology, it's something that he believes. He absolutely
Speaker 1: that it is part of his personality, that's part of
Speaker 1: his philosophy of life. Where the logic doesn't hold is
Speaker 1: that that's not the means, that's not the reason to
Speaker 1: kill other people. Right. A lot of people have the
Speaker 1: idea that Ted Kazynski's an environmentalist, he's concerned about the
Speaker 1: encroachment of technology on wildlife. The truth is he didn't
Speaker 1: care about the environment. He admitted in his own journals
Speaker 1: and notebooks that he polluted, he littered the areas that
Speaker 1: he didn't care about, he poached animals in the area,
Speaker 1: and he really didn't care about wild nature. And even
Speaker 1: within the manifesto, the only time he talks about the
Speaker 1: natural world and environmentalism is in the area where he's
Speaker 1: talking about trying to find followers for his cause. He
Speaker 1: had this idea that if he throws in these tidbits
Speaker 1: of popular culture, people would be attracted to it. So
Speaker 1: if he portrays himself as an environmentalist and says that
Speaker 1: technology is hurting the environment, maybe a lot of environmentalists
Speaker 1: will be attracted to him and his teachings. But it
Speaker 1: really had nothing to do with who he was.
Speaker 5: You cite for your argument letters and books and all
Speaker 5: kinds of influences that show the similarities between the Zodiac
Speaker 5: and the Unibomer, and not differences as many people contend.
Speaker 1: Can you explain yeah, Interestingly, very early on in my research,
Speaker 1: I came to the conclusion that the Zodiac was interested
Speaker 1: in literature, was interested in books and reading. All the
Speaker 1: letters that he wrote and all the codes that he
Speaker 1: provided in his writings showed somebody who was very comfortable,
Speaker 1: was sitting at a desk or sitting at a table
Speaker 1: and spending long hours working. His references and quotes of
Speaker 1: somewhat esoteric literature show a person who is rather educated,
Speaker 1: which is kind of strange when you see his messy
Speaker 1: scrawl and his spelling mistakes, spelling, firing firi, spelling kid
Speaker 1: c id. He obviously took great pains to present himself
Speaker 1: as uneducated and not very intelligent in his writing. And
Speaker 1: yet here he's talking about the Mikado, quoting lines in
Speaker 1: the Mikado, He's making references to Connolly's The Most Dangerous Game.
Speaker 1: He's even referencing buttons that indirectly point back to Herman
Speaker 1: Melville and Moby Dick. So here's a guy who has
Speaker 1: read a lot and has had a certain level of education,
Speaker 1: but it is trying to pretend that he's not. I
Speaker 1: noticed within the more material letter that he used three semicolons.
Speaker 1: In that three page letter. He used them exactly correctly,
Speaker 1: and no other place in the letter should a semi
Speaker 1: colon have been used. I don't know about your education, Dan,
Speaker 1: but when I learned about semi colon and in high school,
Speaker 1: I barely understood it. I didn't take much notice of it,
Speaker 1: and I certainly didn't use semi colons. That wasn't until
Speaker 1: college that I threw them into some of my papers
Speaker 1: to make them look a little bit better, And wasn't
Speaker 1: until grad school that I became comfortable with using semi
Speaker 1: colons and using them regularly. So for the Zodiac to
Speaker 1: portray himself as somebody who's not educated and yet uses
Speaker 1: semicolon so correctly demonstrated to me that he was a
Speaker 1: lot more educated and intelligent than he was portraying himself.
Speaker 5: He also taught about the sophistication of both of these
Speaker 5: perpetrators and their evasion techniques being similar.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fascinating me about the Zodiac was the six page
Speaker 1: letter that arrived soon after the attack on Paul Stein,
Speaker 1: the last known Zodiac murder. It was a long letter,
Speaker 1: and it was an extremely defensive letter. It was almost
Speaker 1: like he methinks thou dost protest too much. He spent
Speaker 1: six pages telling everybody how intelligent he was, and he
Speaker 1: kind of betrayed himself and betrayed what he did to
Speaker 1: try to impress people. But he talked about putting glue
Speaker 1: on his fingertips to prevent to prevent fingerprints from being left.
Speaker 1: He talked about wearing a disguise, even though he didn't
Speaker 1: say exactly what it was, And he portrayed himself even
Speaker 1: through his messy handwriting and his juvenile type wording, that
Speaker 1: he was quite sophisticated in evading law enforcement. And I've
Speaker 1: even heard people on the internet say, well, obviously the
Speaker 1: Zodiac wasn't as intelligent as Ted Kazinski, because you know,
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinsky has a PhD. And obviously the Zodiac wrote
Speaker 1: in messy letters. But when you think about it, the
Speaker 1: Zodiac was never caught and Ted Kazinski was. So there's
Speaker 1: a certain amount of criminals sophistication going on.
Speaker 5: You make all kinds of arguments for other things where
Speaker 5: there seems to be so many similarities and information that
Speaker 5: the FBI, honestly, in their quest to basically create an
Speaker 5: ironclad case against the unibomber, missed vital analysis of evidence
Speaker 5: and information contained in that cabin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me say a couple of things about that. First,
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that don't hold it against anybody for
Speaker 1: not seeing the unibomber in Ted Kazinski the Unibomber in
Speaker 1: the Zodiac, because it was the same way. At the
Speaker 1: same time, I'm really surprised that if people really looked
Speaker 1: into the unibomber, looked into Ted Kazinski and found out
Speaker 1: the truth about him, I'm really surprised that so many
Speaker 1: people write him off out of hand and say, well,
Speaker 1: no it it just couldn't be. And there are some
Speaker 1: very well known people who have written books and published
Speaker 1: and said there is absolutely no way in hell that
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski could be then could be the Zodiac because
Speaker 1: they were just so different. Well, if you look at
Speaker 1: you look into the details of the cases, you find
Speaker 1: out it's not always that black and white, that there
Speaker 1: is a whole lot of a whole lot of similarities
Speaker 1: when you dig below the facade of lies of Ted Kazinski,
Speaker 1: I assembled six or seven what I call constellations or
Speaker 1: groups of evidence that indicate to me that they were
Speaker 1: the same person. And I'm not talking about he made
Speaker 1: a letter e, that Ted Kazinski made a letter E
Speaker 1: similar to the way the Zodiac did, or some minor
Speaker 1: piece of evidence which has been used lately to write
Speaker 1: entire books about You find a couple of connections. Oh,
Speaker 1: he wrote codes as a boy scouting, lived in the
Speaker 1: Bay Area. He must be the Zodiac. This is six
Speaker 1: or seven groups of many pieces of information, including the
Speaker 1: writing style. We already went over what was found in
Speaker 1: the unibomber's cabin that linked him up to, if not
Speaker 1: specifically a forensic match linked up to what you would
Speaker 1: expect to find in the Home of the Zodiac, that
Speaker 1: the bomb creation, the type of bombs, the unique nature
Speaker 1: of the bombs. But I also found some extensive and
Speaker 1: compelling literary matches between the two. Let me go over
Speaker 1: two of them. Number one, paragraph one sixty six of
Speaker 1: the Unibomber Manifesto is a paragraph talking about what Ted Kasynski,
Speaker 1: as the Unibomber, wants to happen. Two things need to
Speaker 1: take place. It's an elaborate paragraph of six or more sentences,
Speaker 1: and yet the structure of that paragraph is almost identical.
Speaker 1: Not the wording per se, not the level of education,
Speaker 1: but the structure of the paragraph is almost identical to
Speaker 1: the paragraph that occurs within the Zodiac's Dragon card. In
Speaker 1: that card, which may be the most significant piece of
Speaker 1: writing that the Zodiac ever released to the public, it
Speaker 1: states what the Zodiac wanted to happen, demands of the public,
Speaker 1: and if his demands were not met, he would continue
Speaker 1: ahead and with what he called his blast, his detonating
Speaker 1: his bomb. He wanted two things to take place. So
Speaker 1: the structure of those two paragraphs is extraordinarily similar, and
Speaker 1: I outline that in my book Exposed the other is
Speaker 1: that Ted Kaczynski was absolutely obsessed with the book Secret Agent,
Speaker 1: Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad right, who also wrote part
Speaker 1: of Darkness. Why do I know that because he's written
Speaker 1: about it. He claimed to have read the book at
Speaker 1: least a dozen times. One time when he was in
Speaker 1: his twenties and his family was having a difficult time
Speaker 1: understanding him and what he was doing, he told them
Speaker 1: read that book, especially the character, especially about the character
Speaker 1: known as the Professor, to understand who I am and
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. Well, if you read the book Secret Agent,
Speaker 1: once you have familiarized yourself with the Zodiac letters, you
Speaker 1: realize that a lot of the wording, a lot of
Speaker 1: the phraseology, and a lot of the ideas the entire
Speaker 1: Zodiac case come to us from the novel The Secret Agent.
Speaker 1: And again I don't mean just item here and there.
Speaker 1: I mean the use of numbers, the use of locations.
Speaker 1: Joseph Conrad in that book talks about a cab of death.
Speaker 1: Numerous numerous words and ideas come to the Zodiac case
Speaker 1: from that particular book, and to me as a very
Speaker 1: strong indication that Ted Kaczuski stands behind the Zodiac serial killer.
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Speaker 5: Now there are detractors, obviously, as you mentioned, But I
Speaker 5: think the one thing that has to I mean has
Speaker 5: to be the most important is is debunking the alibi
Speaker 5: that brother David had spent the entire summer of nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty nine with Ted in Western Canada with potentially looking
Speaker 5: for a place to homestead. Tell us why this alibi
Speaker 5: doesn't work and and about the possibility of forensic testing,
Speaker 5: even though many of those items, almost all of the
Speaker 5: items that were in that cabin were auctioned off in
Speaker 5: about before the turn of the century.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, you ask a very broad question. But let
Speaker 1: me pull it back even a little bit more. I've
Speaker 1: lost my train of thought, but I'll start. I'll start
Speaker 1: at the end, and maybe I'll be able to work
Speaker 1: my way backwards. The items of the Unibomer's cabin were
Speaker 1: auctioned off to the public in twenty eleven in numerous
Speaker 1: lots to raise money for victims of Ted Kazinski. The
Speaker 1: victims and the victims' families had been awarded millions of
Speaker 1: dollars to the courts for the damages that Kazinsky did.
Speaker 1: Kazinsky has never had a net worth, so the families
Speaker 1: were never going to receive any of that money they
Speaker 1: were awarded. But the items of his cabin were auctioned
Speaker 1: off and a high profile auction conducted by the GSA.
Speaker 1: They raised about a quarter of a million dollars maybe
Speaker 1: even closer to half a million dollars that was awarded
Speaker 1: to the family, So that was that was good for them. Yeah, Surprisingly,
Speaker 1: Ted Kaczynski's DNA has never been collected. I was as
Speaker 1: shocked as anybody to hear that he was imprisoned, given
Speaker 1: a life sentence at a time when DNA was not
Speaker 1: regularly collected from inmates. Somebody has said to me that
Speaker 1: the U Unibomber Task Force did collect unibomber DNA, So
Speaker 1: maybe back in the nineties they have an older version
Speaker 1: or a partial profile. I don't know exactly what they have,
Speaker 1: but today anybody who is sentenced off and anybody who
Speaker 1: has arrested, their DNA is taken, but that was not
Speaker 1: the case when Kazinsky was arrested, So the police may
Speaker 1: not have his DNA, but at the same time, the
Speaker 1: police don't have a Zodiac DNA. We have been hoping
Speaker 1: beyond hope that at some point DNA could be collected
Speaker 1: and gathered from this from the Zodiac through his letters,
Speaker 1: such as under the stamps or under the flaps, or
Speaker 1: from one of the items. But any testing that's been
Speaker 1: done has at best produced a very poor, degraded and
Speaker 1: unusable partial DNA profile. So the quest still continues. But
Speaker 1: to answer your larger question, if I move it back
Speaker 1: a little bit, if we look at the timelines between
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski and the unibomber Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac,
Speaker 1: we realized they mesh up pretty well. The unibomber Ted
Speaker 1: Kazinski was a professor at UC Berkeley from sixty seven
Speaker 1: to sixty nine. In sixty eight December, over the Christmas break,
Speaker 1: the first Zodiac murder, the first canonical murder, took place
Speaker 1: outside of Valeo. Ted at that time was on break
Speaker 1: from being a professor. His second year of being a
Speaker 1: math professor at U C. Berkeley. One month later, he
Speaker 1: tendered his resignation to the university and finished his term
Speaker 1: his second year on June the thirty at nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 1: four days later. This second Zodiac murder took place in Valao.
Speaker 1: Valeo is only about a twenty thirty minute drive from
Speaker 1: UC Berkeley, so there's there's very easy access there. Following
Speaker 1: Ted's exiting of academia, there's about a two year gap
Speaker 1: in his life where very little is known about him.
Speaker 1: He used his parents' address in Lombard, Illinois as his
Speaker 1: permanent address at that time, but I would put that
Speaker 1: in quotes because apparently he spent very little time there.
Speaker 1: He did have a job for a couple months over
Speaker 1: one winter during that break, but his mother spoke regularly
Speaker 1: about about Ted, regularly just disappearing from their home and
Speaker 1: not being available, and she didn't know where he went
Speaker 1: or for how long he would be gone. He never
Speaker 1: announced when he was going to leave. He just disappeared.
Speaker 1: So there's a two year gap in his life where
Speaker 1: very little can be said specifically about where he was. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: the bulk of the Zodiac murders and the Zodiac letters
Speaker 1: took place during that two year period. The next time
Speaker 1: that we can conclude uasively say where Ted Kazinsky was
Speaker 1: was in nineteen seventy one, when he showed up in Lincoln,
Speaker 1: Montana and purchased a property and built his cabin. That
Speaker 1: was his known location. He was known to be there.
Speaker 1: He built the cabin himself almost entirely, and therefore we
Speaker 1: know he was there. Between those two times, the bulk
Speaker 1: of the Zodiac activity took place. In fact, following the
Speaker 1: construction of ted Kazinsk's cabin only a single verified letter
Speaker 1: from the Zodiac was received, and that was in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four, three years after Ted Kazinski built his cabin.
Speaker 1: So there seems to be a meshing of the two.
Speaker 1: I say in my inexposed when Ted Kazinski was active,
Speaker 1: the Zodiac was quiet. But when the Zodiac was active,
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinsky was nowhere to be found. He was silent.
Speaker 1: We don't know where he was or what he was doing.
Speaker 1: The one alibi that he has is that his brother
Speaker 1: published in a book, and his brother has said in
Speaker 1: several interviews that he spent the entire summer of nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nine with his brother. Now that's true, it would
Speaker 1: be very difficult for Kazinsky to be in the Bay
Speaker 1: Area and to have written some of the letters, including
Speaker 1: the more material letter including farweight cipher and the three
Speaker 1: part letters that contain those that cipher, because they were
Speaker 1: done in July of sixty nine in the Bay Area.
Speaker 1: David Kazinsky said that the two of them were in
Speaker 1: Western Canada looking for land, but when pressed further, Kazinsky
Speaker 1: David Kazinski was not very clear on the dates that
Speaker 1: he was with his brother, and so there is a
Speaker 1: possibility that they were together for a few weeks going
Speaker 1: out to the Western Canada looking for land. You know,
Speaker 1: how long does it take to be in an area
Speaker 1: to look for land and apply for a land grant.
Speaker 1: Do we really think that they were together for two
Speaker 1: months in Western Canada doing this, I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: also very likely that the two of them, when they
Speaker 1: were in Western Canada, once they had found land, drove
Speaker 1: back to the Bay Area helped ted pick up his
Speaker 1: two hundred or so books that he had in California.
Speaker 1: We don't know how those books were transported to Montana,
Speaker 1: how they arrived at this cabin, but at some point
Speaker 1: they were and so there's there's a lot of open
Speaker 1: questions there. There are a few items. Kazinsky did write
Speaker 1: a letter. Ted Kazinski wrote a letter to a newspaper
Speaker 1: in Minnesota showing that he had been driving through Minnesota
Speaker 1: at one point, which is kind of surprising if you
Speaker 1: know Lombard, Illinois is his home base. What was he
Speaker 1: doing in Minnesota?
Speaker 5: You right that there are many ways, many ways to
Speaker 5: forensically close the Zodiac case. And what and what about
Speaker 5: the possibilities of it being forensically closed? What do you think?
Speaker 1: Well, the easiest way is with DNA, and that's what
Speaker 1: everybody's looking for. DNA is the twenty first century magic
Speaker 1: bullet to any case. Anytime a case appears on television,
Speaker 1: it's always wrapped up within twenty minutes. You know, a
Speaker 1: fictionalized case of something, it's wrapped up in twenty minutes
Speaker 1: because some he says, Aha, here's some DNA and it matches.
Speaker 1: Therefore we've got our person. In reality, DNA is not
Speaker 1: always that easy to find. It's not always that easy
Speaker 1: to close the case. It would be wonderful if one
Speaker 1: of the Zodiac letters revealed DNA and we can capture
Speaker 1: it and identify the individual who was responsible. That's what
Speaker 1: most people, I think within the Zodiac community you're waiting for.
Speaker 1: I realized that there are many other ways of forensically
Speaker 1: closing a case. You know, before the nineteen eighties, we
Speaker 1: were still able to put away murderers because even before
Speaker 1: we head DNA, you know, there are such things as eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1: But today there are amazing advances in technology. Hairs, trace evidence,
Speaker 1: fibers can all be used to link an individual to
Speaker 1: a crime, and it's entirely possible that there's still may
Speaker 1: be a hair found somewhere or a fiber located that
Speaker 1: will close the case. My hope is that the whole
Speaker 1: area of linguistic forensic develops in such a way that
Speaker 1: this case can be closed. Linguistic forensics deals with words
Speaker 1: and the use of language. Right now, it's that it's infinite.
Speaker 1: The science is that it's infancy. It's possible, but very
Speaker 1: difficult to use words to link one person, one piece
Speaker 1: of writing or one piece of writing to a person
Speaker 1: in the way that they use language. But it has
Speaker 1: been done. There's been some very interesting cases. In fact,
Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski was in part colored because of his use
Speaker 1: of words. Back early in his when he was arrested
Speaker 1: and the cabin was being dismantled. Ted Ksky and his
Speaker 1: lawyers said, no, the search of my cabin was not proper.
Speaker 1: You didn't have a right to search my cabin. That
Speaker 1: the search warrant was unwarranted, and therefore everything from my
Speaker 1: cabin should be excluded from evidence. But FBI profilers and
Speaker 1: FBI linguistic experts looked at the unibombers manifest and compared
Speaker 1: it to letters that Ted had written to his family members,
Speaker 1: and they realized that there was a forensic match, not
Speaker 1: a not a one match, but enough of a probability
Speaker 1: that the two were written by the same person that
Speaker 1: the search warrant was justified. It's my hope that the
Speaker 1: whole science of forensic linguistics develops enough so that the
Speaker 1: Zodiac letters can be linked to being written by Ted Kazinski.
Speaker 1: And here's an example. A lot of work is being
Speaker 1: done right now in AI and the use of AI
Speaker 1: to improves chess engines and to perform any type of
Speaker 1: very complex, almost human tasks. Imagine if all of the
Speaker 1: words and punctuation and structure of all of the Zodiac
Speaker 1: letters could be compiled and understood by a computer, and
Speaker 1: then those words and structures and grammar and punctuation could
Speaker 1: be compared to every piece of writing that's available on
Speaker 1: the internet. Wouldn't that be amazing to see what type
Speaker 1: of match computers could make of these between different people's writings.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the computers would do it, but
Speaker 1: the computers would be able to say, well, this person
Speaker 1: writes in a certain way, this person writes in another way.
Speaker 1: This person doesn't use this word, this person doesn't use
Speaker 1: this type of punctuation. It may be possible in time,
Speaker 1: and I'm talking decades from now, it may be possible
Speaker 1: to say all of the writing done by the Zodiac
Speaker 1: serial killer in a strong way resembles the writing of
Speaker 1: Ted Kaczynski.
Speaker 5: For the reader, you have done a lot of that.
Speaker 5: You've done a lot of that analysis in terms of
Speaker 5: the importance of unique words that both use the Unibomber
Speaker 5: and Zodiac, but also phraseology and the unique spellings and
Speaker 5: unique grammar that we're attached to that. So you've done
Speaker 5: a lot of that comparative analysis in this exposed haven't you.
Speaker 1: I have, But I fear that I may have blown
Speaker 1: over the heads of a lot of people or cause
Speaker 1: people's eyes to glaze over as they skim through some
Speaker 1: of the pages of Expose. Obviously, the whole book is
Speaker 1: not about those forensic matches and a linguistic analysis, but
Speaker 1: you really have to spend some time on it if
Speaker 1: you really want to dig into it. And I have
Speaker 1: no problem with my readers kind of skimming over a
Speaker 1: couple of the chapters on that. But yes, I have
Speaker 1: done quite a bit of that work. But I think
Speaker 1: I think I've made a strong case. But I don't
Speaker 1: think I've sensed the argument at this point, and maybe
Speaker 1: it will be at some point now.
Speaker 5: Since you've made this contention, and you did make this
Speaker 5: contention in twenty eighteen, has there been any gift in
Speaker 5: the idea or your contention?
Speaker 1: No, not at all. In fact, the more I learn
Speaker 1: about the Zodiac case, the more I see a connection
Speaker 1: to Ted Kazinski. And I hope that's not just because
Speaker 1: I'm blinded, but it surprises me. Even after the book
Speaker 1: went to print, knew id ideas came to my mind.
Speaker 1: I can't think of any off the top of my head,
Speaker 1: but new indications that Kazinsky might be the Zodiac. But
Speaker 1: then again, you know there's no single argument. There's no
Speaker 1: silver bullet to close the case. I wish there were.
Speaker 1: Maybe there is hidden within my work, I just don't
Speaker 1: realize it yet, or maybe somebody else has to do
Speaker 1: work on top of mine.
Speaker 5: Are there others that either vehemently disagree or are there
Speaker 5: others that are in support of your contention?
Speaker 1: No, everybody agrees with everything I say. Obviously I'm kidding.
Speaker 1: There are a few people who have read Exposed and say,
Speaker 1: my goodness, you've You've put into words what I've been
Speaker 1: thinking for quite some time. There are a good dozen
Speaker 1: or so Zodiac researchers who are of the same opinion
Speaker 1: that Ted Kazinsky is responsible. I've talked to a few
Speaker 1: people who are open to the idea that Ted Kazinsky
Speaker 1: is responsible, but who have not made a decision one
Speaker 1: way or the But by and large people reject the idea.
Speaker 1: I've seen lists of suspects on the Internet that are
Speaker 1: a dozen in length and don't even include Ted Kazinski.
Speaker 1: I've seen Ted Kazinski relegated to the area of conspiracy theory,
Speaker 1: as though to believe that Ted Kazinski is responsible, the
Speaker 1: police are covering it up. Here here's an interesting tidbit.
Speaker 1: I spoke with a very prominent FBI agent who was
Speaker 1: involved in the unibomber case, and a number of agents
Speaker 1: came up to him following the arrest of Ted Kazinski
Speaker 1: and said, you know, this guy really ought to be
Speaker 1: examined and looked at much more closely for being the
Speaker 1: Zodiac serial killer. But this senior FBI agent said, no,
Speaker 1: I'm shutting it down. I'm shutting you down. I'm not
Speaker 1: We're not going to go in that direction. Because the
Speaker 1: Zodiac killed in one way, Ted Gazinski killed in another way.
Speaker 1: And this profile was absolutely convinced that the two couldn't
Speaker 1: be the same person. And so those forces within the
Speaker 1: FBI that wanted to look at Ted Kazensky more closely
Speaker 1: were turned away and where we're not allowed to do so.
Speaker 1: I've seen it mentioned on web pages that the FBI
Speaker 1: has eliminated Ted Kazinski. Well maybe that one profiler took
Speaker 1: a cursory look at the two and said, no, they
Speaker 1: have different styles, so couldn't be the same person. Kevin
Speaker 1: Fagan of the San Francisco Chronicle, who is in charge
Speaker 1: of writing about and studying both Ted Kazinski, the unibummer
Speaker 1: the Zodiac serial killer. He's the one who has written
Speaker 1: there is no way in hell the two couldn't be
Speaker 1: the same person. So obviously my ideas are not are
Speaker 1: not universally held, and in fact, they're a strong minority
Speaker 1: at this point. But you know, that's okay. People are
Speaker 1: free to hold whatever beliefs they want. I know some
Speaker 1: ernest Zodiac researchers are convinced that it's a certain person,
Speaker 1: and they feel that it's their duty to go around
Speaker 1: and convince everybody else that they're right and everybody else
Speaker 1: is wrong. I don't feel that way. Whatso, where I research,
Speaker 1: I present my findings. If people don't accept it, great,
Speaker 1: I'd rather discuss it, though, I'd rather know why people
Speaker 1: don't agree with Ted Kazinski being the Zodiac. A few
Speaker 1: people have shared with me their reservations and reasons that
Speaker 1: they don't think it's the same person, and that caused
Speaker 1: me to write one of the chapters of Exposed and
Speaker 1: respond to each one of these objections. One objection is
Speaker 1: the Zodiac approached people personally and killed them hands on,
Speaker 1: up close, in fact, in one time, with a knife,
Speaker 1: whereas Ted Kazinski as the unibomber only killed from afar
Speaker 1: using bombs. So obviously that's two very different styles. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: it is until you realize that at the murder of
Speaker 1: Paul Stein, the Zodiac was nearly caught forcing him to
Speaker 1: stop killing in the Bay Area and stop killing the
Speaker 1: way he was doing. And if you understand ted Kazinski's personality,
Speaker 1: that's exactly the type of change that you would expect.
Speaker 1: In fact, the Zodiac over the course of his very
Speaker 1: short career changed and changed considerably from attack to attack,
Speaker 1: to the point where one of the signature activities of
Speaker 1: the Zodiac was an extreme change to the moo of
Speaker 1: what he did. He didn't kill people the same way
Speaker 1: all the time. He didn't use the same weapon as
Speaker 1: David Berkwitz, the son of Sam did in all the attacks.
Speaker 1: He got rid of a weapon and used a new
Speaker 1: weapon the next time he attacked, so that and following
Speaker 1: the attack on Paul Stein, he began to write about
Speaker 1: what bombing, setting bombs, killing people with the use of
Speaker 1: a bomb. So there's there's a strong indication that the
Speaker 1: Zodiac himself changed from being a killer up close and
Speaker 1: personal with a gun or with a knife to being
Speaker 1: somebody who distanced himself and wrote about bombing.
Speaker 5: He really does speak to his criminal sophistication and his
Speaker 5: incredible luck or fortune in evading capture for so many years.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much Mark Hewitt, for
Speaker 5: doctor Markuwitt, for coming on and talking about Exposed the Zodiac,
Speaker 5: Revealed the Zodiac serial Killer, and this September twenty seventh
Speaker 5: reissue revised and expanded the Hunted, profiled and exposed the
Speaker 5: three books that have been reissued by your publisher. So
Speaker 5: just tell us a little bit about that and where
Speaker 5: they might take a look at if they wanted more information.
Speaker 1: All three of those books are available on Amazon dot
Speaker 1: com and through any bookstore. Any bookstore can order them
Speaker 1: for you if they don't have them in stock. I'd
Speaker 1: also like to mention that there is a first edition
Speaker 1: hardcover that we put together of Hunted, the very first
Speaker 1: book of the trilogy. Right that we have a collectible edition,
Speaker 1: one hundred volume collection of signed and numbered one hundred
Speaker 1: hardcover first edition Hunted books. There are only about twenty left.
Speaker 1: Once they are sold that they will be available only
Speaker 1: on the secondary mark. But you can contact my publisher
Speaker 1: if you're interested in one of these collectible hardcover, fine
Speaker 1: numbered editions of Hunted. My publisher is Genius book Publishing
Speaker 1: dot com, or just google Genius Publishing and find out
Speaker 1: how to find their website. Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Doctor Mark Hewitt exposed the Zodiac, revealed the Zodiac serial killer.
Speaker 5: It's been a great Thank you so much for this
Speaker 5: interview and goodnight, thanks for having me, Dan, goodnight. Thank you.