1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,079 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 5: It's a beautiful almost Thanksgiving day. Actually I can't say 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,679 it's day anymore right now, because it's six point thirty 18 00:00:55,719 --> 00:00:58,399 and it's pitch black outside. 19 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 3: Is it pitch black up there in Norfolk, Connecticut? Frosty 20 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:03,920 cold bear in Norfic, Connecticut? 21 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:08,879 Speaker 2: It is from about four thirty pm on I must object. 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,319 I don't know who decided this was a good idea. 23 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:17,359 Speaker 3: I strongly object to daylight saving time. We didn't have 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,599 it when I lived in Phoenix, and so I was 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,959 always very happy to never have to lose any of 26 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,359 my daylight. And I really hate this whole dark at 27 00:01:26,359 --> 00:01:28,079 four thirty sort of thing. 28 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,879 Speaker 2: I don't care for it either. Now, remember on December 29 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,719 twenty first, the days start to get longer. So in 30 00:01:35,879 --> 00:01:39,159 one more month we will start seeing up to two 31 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:41,519 minutes per day of additional daylight. 32 00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 3: Look at that. That's a nice little that's a nice 33 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,640 little ray of hope. 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,319 Speaker 2: In a pitch black world, in a pitch. 35 00:01:50,079 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: Black world, in a pitch black cold world. Though it 36 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:57,000 was colder up there than it is here in coastal Virginia, 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:57,920 i'd imagine. 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,879 Speaker 2: Yes, I had to go rescue my partner, Pamela, who 39 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,079 was having some minor car trouble. She was at a 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,920 doctor's appointment, and so I had to get the Miata 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,759 out of storage and put the top up and hurtle 42 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,240 on up there to give her a hand. Everything worked 43 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,960 out fine, but it usually would be time to put 44 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,159 away the sports car right about now before the snow flies. 45 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,439 Speaker 3: But you said it flew once already, did it not? 46 00:02:22,719 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: It did tune up about an inch. It went away. 47 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,120 We often see snow up here at the beginning of November. 48 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: I'm so glad I don't live in the ice box 49 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,759 of Connecticut. I'm so glad. I can't stand the cold. 50 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,199 This is the time of year that I will not 51 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,039 be warm again until at least March, probably April, and 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:42,960 I despise it. 53 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:47,199 Speaker 2: And your version of Virginia cold is not as cold 54 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:48,960 as a frosty New England. 55 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,439 Speaker 3: Oh no, not at all, not at all. I still 56 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:54,639 don't like it, though, And the high school stays very drafty. 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,120 And so I was just telling another teacher across the 58 00:02:58,159 --> 00:03:00,280 hall from me today it's time to bring in the 59 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,400 space heater. And I've got like a bunch of extra 60 00:03:03,439 --> 00:03:06,479 sweaters and everything that I keep at school. And this 61 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:08,800 is also the time of year when the students start 62 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,759 bringing in They either start showing up in onesies or 63 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,120 they start bringing blankets and they wrap themselves in blankets 64 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:16,520 during class time. 65 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: What's a onesie? 66 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 3: What's a onesie? You know how when you have a 67 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,759 newborn baby you put them in a onesie. It's just 68 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,560 one one outfit with a zipper. 69 00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:31,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's a yes. But that's an outfit for 70 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:31,919 a little kid. 71 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,199 Speaker 3: They make teenage and adult onesies. They're made out of fleece. 72 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,800 Kids have been wearing them a lot since COVID. 73 00:03:40,879 --> 00:03:44,199 Speaker 2: Isn't that roughly the equivalent of wearing your pajamas to school? 74 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: Yes, most kids do that now too. The fashion there 75 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,680 is no fashion into school anymore. It's kids strolling around 76 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:55,599 in their pajamas and their crocs. And we do tell 77 00:03:55,639 --> 00:03:58,639 them they can't bring bedroom slippers to school, but kids 78 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,360 will roll in anyway, wearing just about anything. I did 79 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:03,560 ask one kid today, I said, you look like you 80 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:05,599 just rolled out of bed, did you? He goes, no, 81 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:07,199 I just came out at physics. 82 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: I was like, buddy, yeah, pajamas. 83 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,439 Speaker 3: He was. Yeah. He was wearing pajama pants and a 84 00:04:15,479 --> 00:04:21,120 sweatshirt and socks and birkenstocks. That's just a look. 85 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,519 Speaker 2: Now, it's a look that it is a look. 86 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: It is a look. 87 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:27,639 Speaker 2: I don't want to be that guy who sounds like 88 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,319 the old guy saying get off my lawn and kids 89 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,519 these days, but pajamas. 90 00:04:33,439 --> 00:04:36,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's okay, it's okay. I'm that person too. 91 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,240 I'm that person too. 92 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: You're far too young to be that cranky old person. Wow, 93 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,160 although you can be the cranky teacher who says that's ridiculous. 94 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,759 Do we ever send them home for not wearing clothes? 95 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're dressed. They dress code more based on like 96 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,240 summer fashions too short shorts and crop tops and stuff. 97 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:03,439 We don't dress coad kids in the winter. They just 98 00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:06,920 come wearing whatever they want. It's fine. It's a thing. 99 00:05:07,199 --> 00:05:09,079 As long as they're here and as long as they're warm, 100 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:09,560 it's okay. 101 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:14,199 Speaker 2: Years ago, when I was at SAG after, I was 102 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,000 the executive director, which made me the boss, and we 103 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,560 did have to send some people home for inappropriate work 104 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,680 attire a couple of times, both women and men. 105 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 3: I love that you just tossed out I was the 106 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,519 director and that made me the boss. The only people 107 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:33,160 who've been the boss can just cheerfully throw that out there. 108 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: Being the boss is okay most of the time, but 109 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,720 there are times when it's not fun. Relatively minor. You're 110 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:44,399 sending people home for wearing inappropriate outfits, or sometimes you 111 00:05:44,439 --> 00:05:46,639 have to send people home and tell them they're fired. 112 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:47,480 Stuff happens. 113 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 3: I would imagine, however, that you did not send home 114 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,839 anyone from SAG after because they've rolled up in their pajamas. 115 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: No, because nobody would do that. It's a professional environment. 116 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:58,399 I know. 117 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,079 Speaker 3: It's a different world now, it's a whole different world, 118 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,000 and that's okay. We're rolling into it with grace and understanding. 119 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,759 Speaker 2: In our pajamas and our pajamas. 120 00:06:10,439 --> 00:06:12,879 Speaker 3: For the record, I am not one of those teachers 121 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,120 that rolls up wearing Jim attire or anything like that. 122 00:06:17,319 --> 00:06:21,160 I dress professionally every single day. We are allowed to 123 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:24,439 wear jeans, and so I teach in dark washed jeans, 124 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,759 a nice shirt or a nice shirt and a cardigan, 125 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,000 or a nice shirt and a blazer. But I do 126 00:06:31,079 --> 00:06:33,839 not roll up looking like I have just rolled out 127 00:06:33,879 --> 00:06:36,680 of bed. I have some colleagues who do, but I 128 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:37,040 will not. 129 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: And you're wearing new glasses. 130 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 3: I am wearing new Yes. The ravages of age have 131 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,319 caught up to me and I have finally needed a 132 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:47,160 pair of readers. And it took a lot to get 133 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:49,079 me to this point that I did have to break 134 00:06:49,079 --> 00:06:52,000 down yesterday and get a pair of readers. Dear listeners, 135 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,240 I will post a picture of me in my readers 136 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,759 because Bill has said, and now my secret is out. Yes, 137 00:06:57,879 --> 00:06:59,240 I have glasses. 138 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: On social media this morning. So it wasn't like I 139 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:08,480 outed you as wearing blue very fashionable glasses. 140 00:07:09,079 --> 00:07:12,959 Speaker 3: You pretty good f CVS. Right there you go it 141 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,839 a twenty four dollars pair of readers from CBS. They 142 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:16,560 look pretty good. 143 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,199 Speaker 2: Absolutely, they look they look pretty spectacular. I might say 144 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:24,120 they make you look even smarter than you did before. 145 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: Really, one of the I think nicest things that somebody 146 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:30,720 said to me was that they make me look like 147 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:33,519 Penelope Garcia from Criminal Minds. And I was like, you 148 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:35,519 know what, I'll take that. I will take it. 149 00:07:35,879 --> 00:07:36,399 Speaker 2: Why not? 150 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,519 Speaker 3: I love that. That's great. 151 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 2: Sure, it's funny. She showed up in my social media 152 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,720 feed the other day for reasons I can't recall, something 153 00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:47,519 about right lawsuits. 154 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 3: Are you friends with her on social media? 155 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:51,519 Speaker 4: No? 156 00:07:52,639 --> 00:07:56,079 Speaker 3: Okay, if we are and you've kept this for me, 157 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,199 we will have a conversation. 158 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: No, she just showed up in my feed. I don't 159 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,519 have a personal relationship, but it will be Garcia. 160 00:08:04,279 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: Okay. 161 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: I have enjoyed her on TV. That's as far as 162 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,680 our relationship goes. 163 00:08:11,519 --> 00:08:12,199 Speaker 3: Oh, good to know. 164 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,279 Speaker 2: Okay, it's funny. You look very taken. It back there 165 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:19,120 for a second. Wait, because you know these people I 166 00:08:19,399 --> 00:08:20,279 don't know these people. 167 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if you tend to know a lot 168 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,920 of really interesting people from your SAG after days, I 169 00:08:25,959 --> 00:08:30,120 think your one degree of separation from Alison Janny, for example, 170 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,279 and she is one of my all time heroes, so 171 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:33,279 I never know. 172 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: I think she's great, and she and I do have 173 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,679 friends in common, but I have never met Miss Jenny. 174 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,240 I've heard great things about her on a personal level, 175 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,960 what a wonderful person she is. I have no direct 176 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,519 connection to Miss Jenny. 177 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:48,919 Speaker 1: Well. 178 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 3: As much as we would love to sit here and 179 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:52,480 rip back and forth all day, I think this is 180 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:54,879 a long enough intro and it's time for us to 181 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,600 launch into our true crime news roundup. 182 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we haven't done that in a long time. And 183 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,759 no or if we lost anybody, we're sorry. 184 00:09:02,639 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have not done a true crime news round up. 185 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,000 For a hot minute. It seemed like because some very 186 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:12,639 important trials had been adjudicated and there had been some 187 00:09:12,799 --> 00:09:17,399 interesting developments in several well known cases, we figured it 188 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,000 was probably a good idea to gather our wits together 189 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,039 and do some research and bring all of these developments 190 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,720 to you all in case you have not been able 191 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:31,080 to follow all the goings on in the true crime space. 192 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:36,080 So we'll start our true crime news roundup by talking 193 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:43,879 about the successfully adjudicated case that is a very obvious 194 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,440 concern and interest to me as a woman who runs, 195 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:51,399 and that is the murder of Lake and Riley. I 196 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,639 know that many people out there were absolutely horrified as 197 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,320 I was to learn about Lake and Riley's brutal murder 198 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,120 on February twenty second of twenty twenty four. So this 199 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,519 was a very fast moving case through the criminal justice system. 200 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,600 It was. I did not expect it to be adjudicated 201 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:14,559 within the same year that it happened, but we actually 202 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,799 got the speedy trial that the criminal justice system promises us. 203 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: And yet it fails to deliver most of the time exactly. 204 00:10:23,879 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: But I was very pleased to see that this was 205 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:29,440 going to go to trial. As with the murders of 206 00:10:29,519 --> 00:10:35,399 Mally Tibbets, Eliza Fletcher, Alyssa Lockett's, Wendy Martinez, and so 207 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,000 many more women here in the US and around the world, 208 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,200 the murder of a female runner always rocks me back 209 00:10:42,279 --> 00:10:46,519 on my heels because our safety while running, and that 210 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,759 includes my own safety while I am running, is of 211 00:10:49,879 --> 00:10:53,240 huge importance. To me, and this case just absolutely sent 212 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,360 me reeling in February, and it did make me question 213 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,000 my own safety strategies for when I go out. 214 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,879 Speaker 2: On a run. Yeah, I remember talking to you about this, 215 00:11:03,159 --> 00:11:07,879 and I am not alone in your sphere of friends 216 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,840 who worry about you and other women running by themselves. 217 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: So we know a number of women in the true 218 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,039 crime space who do run competitively. I can think of 219 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:20,200 three or four, just like right off the top of 220 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,799 my head. And it should be noted as several news 221 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:27,399 outlets have noted that stranger abduction and stranger murders are 222 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:32,120 supposedly relatively rare. It's often stated in the news that 223 00:11:32,159 --> 00:11:34,679 women are far more likely to be killed by someone 224 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,320 they know, but the prevalence of attacks over the last 225 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,240 couple of years on female runners has been very upsetting. 226 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:46,279 So it was very pleasing to me to see the 227 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,360 outcome of this trial. For anyone who has not been 228 00:11:49,399 --> 00:11:52,559 following the Lake and Riley saga, will go ahead and 229 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,679 cover the basics and then we will talk about the 230 00:11:56,759 --> 00:11:59,720 trial and how ultimately it ended. It was only a 231 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,919 day trial, so for anyone who doesn't remember Lake and Riley, 232 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,960 she was a twenty two year old nursing student at 233 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,759 the University of Georgia. She went out on a run 234 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:17,159 on the UGA campus in Athens, Georgia in February of 235 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,039 this past February, and while she was out on the trail, 236 00:12:21,159 --> 00:12:25,519 she was attacked by twenty six year old Venezuelan Jose 237 00:12:25,759 --> 00:12:30,600 Ebara in an attempt to rape her. He accosted her, 238 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:34,480 pulled her off the course into the woods, attempted to 239 00:12:34,519 --> 00:12:38,519 assault her, and when she fought him, he ultimately killed 240 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:44,320 her by blunt forth's trauma and asphyxiation. So Ibarra came 241 00:12:44,399 --> 00:12:48,320 to trial relatively quickly, as we sat a couple of 242 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,480 minutes ago, and he was convicted on a broad list 243 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,559 of charges. I got the sense that they were trying 244 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,240 to throw everything at him that they possibly could. What 245 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,120 I want to do is to run down the list 246 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:04,799 of charges and then I want to dissect all of 247 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:09,279 that by referring to some work from the CNN Crime 248 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,480 and Justice coverage team. So here are the charges that 249 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,840 Jose Abara was convicted on. Three counts of felony murder, 250 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,120 one count of malice murder, and we'll explain how the 251 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,879 two things are different. In a second one count of 252 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,080 kidnapping with bodily injury, one count of aggravated battery, one 253 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,080 count of aggravated assault with intent to rape, one count 254 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,919 of false imprisonment, one count of hindering an emergency telephone call, 255 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,679 one count on concealing the death of another, and one 256 00:13:42,799 --> 00:13:47,799 count on being a peeping tom. So ten counts all told, 257 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,080 and I honestly was not aware that hindering an emergency 258 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,519 telephone call was something you could be charged with. Was 259 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,120 that something that you'd ever heard of before? 260 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: Bill, No, this does read like an incredible laundry list, 261 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:08,200 but obviously they were absolutely focused on making certain that 262 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,440 Ibarra served the maximum amount of time in jail. 263 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,279 Speaker 3: So I was looking up information for this episode, and 264 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,559 I was so happy to see the truly excellent coverage 265 00:14:21,039 --> 00:14:26,200 that was provided by CNN's Crime and Justice team. They 266 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:31,519 went to the trouble of breaking down each charge, then 267 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,679 explaining why Ibarra was guilty on all of these counts. 268 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,440 Writers Holly Yann and Rebecca Rice have done such an 269 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,279 amazing job on this that there is absolutely no way 270 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,519 I could say this any better. So I'm going to 271 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:50,440 quote from their coverage. We do want to warn you 272 00:14:51,039 --> 00:14:54,639 that the details over the next two or three minutes 273 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,799 about Lake and Riley's death are graphic, a little more 274 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,559 graphic than we normally get. Please do proceed with caution 275 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:05,840 and care for the next two or three minutes, especially 276 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:09,159 if you are sensitive to details about crimes such as 277 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,759 this one. According to Holly Anne and Rebecca Rice quote, 278 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:18,080 here's how Prosecutor Sheila Ross described each charge and why 279 00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:23,600 Ebarra was guilty on all counts malice murder. Ross outlined 280 00:15:23,679 --> 00:15:28,919 Ebarra's clear intention to kill Riley, citing evidence and testimony 281 00:15:29,039 --> 00:15:32,639 from the medical examiner. Quote, he put huge holes in 282 00:15:32,679 --> 00:15:35,360 her head with a rock, and he did it more 283 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:38,480 than once, and there could be no other reason to 284 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:43,720 do that other than to silence her forever. Prosecutor said. 285 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,399 Ebarra also deprived Riley of oxygen long enough to cause 286 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,679 wounds and intended to kill her. Ross said the medical 287 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,360 examiner ruled Riley's death to be a homicide caused by 288 00:15:56,399 --> 00:15:59,720 the combined effects of blunt force head trauma, and as 289 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:05,440 fixed sets the count for alice murder next three counts 290 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,919 of felony murder. A felony murder is a murder that 291 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:14,519 takes place during the commission of another felony. In Ebarra's case, 292 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:20,399 prosecutors successfully argued he committed several other felonies during his 293 00:16:20,559 --> 00:16:23,799 encounter with Riley, which led to each of those three counts. 294 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,200 Next count kidnapping with bodily injury when Ebarra confronted Riley 295 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:34,919 as she was jogging in UGA's a Coney Forest Park. Quote, 296 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,320 he took her sixty four feet and eleven inches off 297 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,279 the trail for the purpose of victimizing her. Ross said 298 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,480 that actual felony precedes the murder in time. Ross also 299 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:52,200 detailed Riley's spate of bodily injuries, including a fractured skull. 300 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,559 Next count aggravated assault with attempt to rape. When Riley's 301 00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:01,679 body was found, her breath this were exposed, all three 302 00:17:01,759 --> 00:17:04,839 layers of her top clothing were pulled up, her leggings 303 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,039 were pulled down, her underwear was torn and pulled upside 304 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,720 of her tights. The prosecution said, quote. The only thing 305 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,960 that makes sense about why these two individuals, who didn't 306 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,519 know each other, never met each other, had this encounter 307 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,240 on this trail at this moment while Laken is out 308 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,400 for her morning jog, is because he wanted to sexually 309 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,920 assault her, Russ said. Next count, aggravated battery. Prosecutors said 310 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,759 Riley had a depressed skull fracture on the left side 311 00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:35,160 of her head and part of her skull is in 312 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,960 her brain. Riley also suffered eight lacerations to her head. 313 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,759 I really don't need to say anything else, Russ said. 314 00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:46,079 He is guilty of aggravated battery. Next count, obstructing a 315 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,839 person making an emergency call. A police sergeant gave a 316 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,240 heartbreaking account of Riley's final cell phone communications from the 317 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,200 morning she died. Records showed Riley made a nine to 318 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,440 one one call, but the call got disconnected and nine 319 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,519 one went up. Tried to call Riley back twice, but 320 00:18:02,599 --> 00:18:06,359 she didn't answer her phone. Russ said the evidence Prouves 321 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,319 Ebarro was the one who disconnected Riley's nine to one 322 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,240 one call. It is no coincidence that his thumb print 323 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:16,440 is on her phone where you would go to hang 324 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:20,720 up an iPhone, she said. In addition, her phone was 325 00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:22,200 separated from her body. 326 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,279 Speaker 2: It's very hard not to picture her desperately trying to 327 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,720 reach emergency services while struggling with him at the same time. 328 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:38,079 Speaker 3: Oh, it's heartbreaking. Next count, tampering with evidence. Video footage 329 00:18:38,079 --> 00:18:41,880 from a neighbor's doorbell camera showed Ebarra tossing key pieces 330 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,440 of evidence near his apartment the morning Riley was killed. Quote. 331 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,079 He's throwing away the bloody jacket. He's throwing away the 332 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,799 bloody gloves, she said. Bodycam footage from a police officer 333 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:56,039 who climbed into a dumpster captures his shock when he 334 00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,839 found the discarded jacket. There's hair on the buttons, women's 335 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,559 life long hair wrapped up in the buttons. Athens, Clark 336 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,000 County police officer Zachary Davis said hair from the jacket 337 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,559 was found to be microscopically consistent with Lake and Riley's hair. 338 00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:14,119 A crime lab analyst testified, and a blood like stain 339 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:17,079 on the navy blue jacket found in the dumpster contained 340 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:21,240 the DNA of Riley and Ibarra. A forensic DNA expert 341 00:19:21,279 --> 00:19:27,359 testified final count peeping tom charge. Before attacking Riley, Ebarra 342 00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:30,680 peered into the apartment of a UGA student and tried 343 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,319 to open her door repeatedly. Ross said the graduate student, 344 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,839 who testified off camera in court, was unnerved by the incident. 345 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:44,200 Ross said Ebarra had been outside her apartment for an hour, 346 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:47,240 she's in the shower, and that's when Ebarra decides to 347 00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:50,519 try to open her door. The student called police and 348 00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:53,839 said the man outside her door had ducked. Campus security 349 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,079 footage corroborated the student's account. That is all of the 350 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,920 evidence that is available on the else that Jose Abara 351 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,839 was brought up on and then ultimately convicted for his trial, 352 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,759 rather than being a jury trial, was what's called a 353 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:11,799 bench trial. That means the evidence was all presented to 354 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,079 the judge in this case, Judge h Patrick Haggard. He 355 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,119 ultimately determined that Ibarra was guilty on all counts, and 356 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,640 he gave the entirely justified sentence of life without the 357 00:20:24,759 --> 00:20:26,240 possibility of parole. 358 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 2: I was very surprised they decided to go with a 359 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:33,240 bench trial, because with a jury trial, all it takes 360 00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:37,440 is one juror not buying the prosecution story, and you 361 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:42,480 can actually get off, even from something as serious as 362 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:46,200 this array of charges. I was very surprised they decided 363 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,160 to go with a bench trial. 364 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was reading something from an NBC legal analyst. 365 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,240 I read so many articles today I don't think I 366 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,519 could pull up the one at the moment to quote 367 00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:59,319 from the person who stated it, But they said that 368 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,799 a lot of times a bench trial, even though it 369 00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:04,400 would seem to make sense because as you pointed out, 370 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,720 you only need one person to deadlock a jury. This 371 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:10,240 person said that a lot of times a bench trial 372 00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:13,640 will be decided if there is such a preponderance of 373 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,640 evidence that there's no logical way that you could argue 374 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,319 that this person is innocent. 375 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 2: And that probably applies in this example. 376 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly seemed that that way to me. Very 377 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:28,359 happy to have learned that he was given life without 378 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,559 the possibility of parole. This case really became why don't 379 00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:35,519 we call it a political lightning rod with regard to 380 00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:39,440 immigration earlier in the year, because Ebara is an illegal 381 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,359 immigrant and was allowed to stay pending citizenship. It really, 382 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,279 I think is no surprise that almost immediately Lake in 383 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:54,880 Riley's murder was taken up as a sort of political flashpoint. 384 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,559 In fact, Amir eleven days after her murder, on March seventh, 385 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:05,359 twenty two, twenty four, the House passed HR seventy five eleven, 386 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,519 the Lake and Riley Act. It is a bill which 387 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:13,960 requires the Department of Homeland Security quote to detain certain 388 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:18,160 non US nationals aliens under federal law who have been 389 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,960 arrested for burglary, theft, larceny, or shoplifting. This bill also 390 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,319 authorizes states to sue the federal government for decisions or 391 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:32,839 alleged failures related to immigration enforcement. The bill was sponsored 392 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:37,079 by Representative Mike Collins of Georgia Republican on March first, 393 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,799 and it was passed on March seventh with a vote 394 00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:45,519 of two fifty one yays to one seventy nays. And honestly, 395 00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:48,039 I actually did not know about that Lake and Riley 396 00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:52,000 Act until I was looking up information for this episode today. 397 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,039 Were you aware of it? Bill? I know that you 398 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,599 keep much closer track on politics than I do. 399 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 2: I had followed the Lake and Riley case. I don't 400 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:02,319 think I paid much attention to this Lake and Riley 401 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,039 Act that passed into law. 402 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 3: I think this will probably be not the first time 403 00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:15,200 that a murder trial becomes a flashpoint for a convergence 404 00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:18,440 of politics and crime over the next couple of years. 405 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,240 But certainly this is the one that I'm most pleased 406 00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,799 to have seen be brought to swift adjudication. And of 407 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:29,400 course my heart and my prayers go out to the 408 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,440 family and friends of Lake and Riley, as well as 409 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,559 all of the other female runners out there who have 410 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,880 been murdered doing the thing that they love the most. 411 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 412 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:55,359 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 413 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,400 mindover Murder. Another case we've been following pretty clear closely 414 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,880 over the last several years is the murder of thirteen 415 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,799 year old Abigail Williams, who went by Abby, and fourteen 416 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,440 year old Liberty German, who went by Libby. They were murdered, 417 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,680 you may recall in twenty seventeen while out for a 418 00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:20,359 walk along a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana. Many people 419 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,119 refer to this case as the Delphi Case. Richard Allen, 420 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,559 who was arrested and brought to trial, has now been 421 00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:31,200 found guilty on all counts in that double murder. I'm 422 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,720 sure he'll appeal, and his wife said while leaving the 423 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,200 court that this is not the end of this. They 424 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,480 spent about nineteen hours in the jury room deliberating before 425 00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,079 reaching a verdict. This has been a very controversial case. 426 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:47,519 Of course, the murder of two young teenage girls is 427 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,279 awful enough, and then this very protracted, drawn out investigation. 428 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,480 A number of people that live in that area of 429 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,720 Indiana were very frustrated when it turned out that Richard Allen, 430 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:04,240 this suspect, was literally under the noses of the investigators 431 00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:07,880 for five years. There's some remarkable pictures from a couple 432 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,119 of years ago when Alan was first arrested of him 433 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,119 sitting in a bar looking like himself. Next to him 434 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:18,359 on the wall in the bar in Delphi is a 435 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,680 wanted poster with a pretty good likeness of the person 436 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,480 they referred to as Bridge Guy. He was captured on 437 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,400 video while walking up to the two young girls. They 438 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,599 actually had the focus and the street smarts to actually 439 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,759 record him, and I think there was a forty three 440 00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:41,759 second video only, some of which was ever released to 441 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,720 the public. You've got a pretty good view of Bridge Guy, 442 00:25:46,079 --> 00:25:49,240 and you could hear his voice, and it was so 443 00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:52,400 striking to me that in these photographs that came out later, 444 00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:55,960 there's Richard Allen and he looks exactly like the sketch. 445 00:25:56,839 --> 00:26:00,160 And he was working at a clerk in the CVS 446 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,920 in downtown Delphi, quite close to the court and to 447 00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:07,640 the police department where these investigators would have come and 448 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,519 gone and he would have wrung them up at the register. 449 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,799 It's baffling to me that no one was ever able 450 00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:16,960 to put together just how much Richard Allen looked like 451 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,400 the suspect, the man they've been looking for five years. 452 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:22,759 Alan could be sentenced to up to one hundred and 453 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:27,720 thirty years in prison, and the scheduled date for his 454 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,839 sentencing is December twentieth. Now, we've met some of the 455 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,039 members of the families for Abby and Libby, who are 456 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,559 really wonderful people, and they've been through a tremendous amount 457 00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:43,240 of just loss and grief, and this whole process has 458 00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:47,200 been far more protracted than you'd like to see. Kristin, 459 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,519 you were saying a moment ago, how great it is 460 00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:53,480 when we see a case adjudicated in a timely manner, 461 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,720 and this Delphi case is not an example of a 462 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:00,599 case being moved forward in a time manner. 463 00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: Right after the verdict came down, crime Con posted a 464 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,599 little something on their social media and they pointed out 465 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,839 they have been covering Delphi in one way or another 466 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,640 for the entirety of the time that crime Con has 467 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,240 been in operation. They said they featured Delphi at their 468 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,960 very very first crime Con in Indianapolis, and we've had 469 00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:27,599 something about it every year since then, and that's quite 470 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,000 a few crime cons. So yeah, it really has had 471 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,119 just this enormous, long lasting impact. And I can't imagine 472 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,079 how hard that must have been for those families to 473 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,960 have to wait this long stretch of time with delays 474 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,000 and delays. I know that you have worked more closely 475 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:49,000 with the family members of the girls. Did you reach 476 00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:52,480 out to them initially after all of this happened, or 477 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:55,160 did somebody turn to them and say, hey, you should 478 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,599 talk to this guy Bill Thomas. 479 00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: I think we were introduced by mutual friends, and then 480 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,319 I made a point of sitting down with them at 481 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,880 crime con several years ago. And of course this case 482 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,960 had gotten so protracted. The original double homicide of Abby 483 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,519 and Libby is in twenty seventeen, and Alan's not arrested 484 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:21,000 until twenty twenty two. I could understand the family's frustration 485 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,359 when it came out that a tip had been received 486 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,440 in the early going of this investigation. And this is 487 00:28:27,759 --> 00:28:30,119 to be fair to everybody, this is when the investigators 488 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,079 are just getting hit with a ton of information, but 489 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,519 somehow they had dropped a very important ball, which is 490 00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:41,440 that Richard Allen, while being interviewed, had placed himself at 491 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,960 the scene on the day the girls were murdered at 492 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,880 this hiking walking trail. It isn't until five years later 493 00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:53,799 that a clerk who is going through and digitizing all 494 00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:57,920 of these tips discovers that they've overlooked the fact that 495 00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:02,680 Alan placed himself the scene on the day of the murders. 496 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:07,119 So Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett said, Alan quote got 497 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,200 lost in the cracks unquote, and that's really problematic from 498 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,240 the perspective of the community and the family members to 499 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,359 find out they had this information. And so it's about 500 00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:22,599 a month after the tip was rediscovered that Allan was 501 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,000 arrested after they matched an unspent cartridge that was found 502 00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:30,039 on the ground in between the girls' bodies. It wasn't 503 00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:34,000 a fired round. It looked like it had maybe fallen 504 00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:37,720 out of a gun. Without being discharged, he was finally 505 00:29:37,839 --> 00:29:42,680 arrested almost five years to the day after the original incident, 506 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,400 which was in November twenty seventeen, and he was arrested 507 00:29:46,519 --> 00:29:50,359 at the end of October. It's one of these situations 508 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,640 where the community has just been through so much and 509 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,839 It's just appalling that something is important as this original 510 00:29:58,839 --> 00:30:01,000 tip from two thousand and seven teen was allowed to 511 00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:05,440 sit unseen in a stack of papers for five years. 512 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 3: If it does turn out that in our case, Alan 513 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:12,039 Wade Wilmer Senior is responsible for more than the cases 514 00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:15,200 he's already been connected to via DNA, I think we 515 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,519 would have to say the same thing. They had his 516 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,160 name almost immediately from the very beginning. What a shame 517 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,240 that it's taken till several decades later to figure out 518 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,440 his involvement slipping through the cracks. 519 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: Indeed, Yeah, we'll see what happens with that and how 520 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,599 the rest of the Wilmer story comes together, hopefully in 521 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,000 the coming months. One of the things that's really striking 522 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:40,119 about Richard Allen is he's i think, struggling with some 523 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,839 pretty serious mental health issues. He actually confessed over sixty 524 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,440 times to being involved in the murder of Abby and Libby, 525 00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,880 repeatedly spoke to his wife and other people, and of course, 526 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,160 when you're talking on a phone line from prison, every 527 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,960 call in or out of prison is monitored, and he 528 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:08,319 referenced his involvement more than sixty times. I'm baffled as 529 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,240 to what would cause him to admit over and over 530 00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:15,759 again that he was directly involved in the murder. At 531 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:20,160 one point, the psychologists testified that Allan had told her 532 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,039 I killed Abby and Libby. I'm sorry, and that's about 533 00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:26,119 as direct as it's ever going to get. 534 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,599 Speaker 3: There is so much I think that is still to 535 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,480 come with this case, but for right now, I think 536 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,000 everyone in the true crime community who's familiar with the 537 00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:38,640 case is just happy that there is a guilty verdict. 538 00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:41,880 Obviously it will be appealed, but at least, right at 539 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,640 the moment, there is some measure of justice for Abby 540 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,400 and Libby, and I'm so glad for their families. I 541 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,319 don't feel like I can say that's got to be 542 00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:53,519 a relief, because I guess it can't really be. But 543 00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:54,400 I'm glad that. 544 00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: At least they have that These are sad outcomes no 545 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,519 matter what. I'm sure we haven't seen the last ever Allen. 546 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:03,640 I'm sure they'll be an appeal. A lot of other 547 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,359 bizarre theories were put forward, and there were some really 548 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:13,880 unsavory characters from that area whose names came up. I 549 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,279 think they've got the right guy, and for the moment, 550 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,240 Richard Allen has been found guilty and we'll be sentenced 551 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,480 December of this year. 552 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 3: We're going to turn back to a case from twenty 553 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:30,799 twenty one because a very interesting update occurred in that 554 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:34,839 case just a few short days ago. And I want 555 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,039 to give a lot of props to metroweekly dot com 556 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:41,759 for some of the really excellent reporting that I was 557 00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:44,599 reading as I was trying to put together a cohesive 558 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,920 story here for this portion of true crime news roundup. 559 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,440 You all may remember that in twenty twenty one, actor 560 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:58,920 Jesse Smollette of Empire fame was convicted on charges of 561 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:04,039 disorderly con for lying to police about being the victim 562 00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:08,839 of an anti gay hate crime. Because there's a lot 563 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,119 to this story and it did take place a while ago, 564 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,480 let me give you a quick rundown of how all 565 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:16,559 that played out so that you can understand all the 566 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:21,079 recent developments in the case. In twenty nineteen, Jesse Smollett 567 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,920 stated that he was the victim of a hate crime 568 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,960 while in Chicago. He went to police and stated that 569 00:33:28,079 --> 00:33:31,680 he was injured by two men who were shouting racist 570 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,319 and homophobic slurs. He further stated that after he was 571 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,759 beaten by these men, he was covered in he called 572 00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:44,240 it an unknown chemical substance, and a rope was then 573 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,720 slung around his neck before his attackers later fled the scene. 574 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,359 He reports this to Chicago p D. Several days later. 575 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Chicago PD determined that Jesse Smollett had not been the 576 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:02,039 victim of a hate crime. Rather, he had hired two 577 00:34:02,359 --> 00:34:06,839 brothers to orchestrate that attack. Bill, I know you were 578 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,079 doing a little bit of reading ahead of time. Did 579 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:13,039 we ever come up with a motive for why he 580 00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,199 would report a fake hate crime? 581 00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 2: Not that this really makes sense. And of course, as 582 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,239 we've talked about it a lot of times, we're trying 583 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,760 to apply logic to inherently illogical acts. It appeared that 584 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:29,480 Jesse Smalllett was unhappy with the amount of money he 585 00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:33,400 was receiving as an actor on the show Empire, and 586 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,039 this was an attempt to elevate his profile. And it 587 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:41,719 doesn't really make all that much sense. But the whole 588 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,519 thing is so crazy. It isn't like you can say, oh, okay, 589 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:46,360 that makes sense. 590 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 3: He did get a national name for himself, just probably 591 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,079 not in the way that I think he wanted. 592 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 2: And it is one of these cases where first your 593 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,480 shock and then when the real facts come out, You're like, 594 00:34:57,559 --> 00:34:58,840 what was this guy thinking? 595 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:04,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the Cook County State's Attorney's office indicted Smallett 596 00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:09,320 on sixteen charges related to making that false police report. 597 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:13,320 Then a month later, the office of the State's Attorney 598 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,960 dropped those charges against him in exchange for a deal. 599 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:20,719 They said, we will drop the charges if you forfeit 600 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,559 your ten thousand dollars bond and you perform fifteen hours 601 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:29,800 of community service. Do both those things, and you will 602 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,360 serve no jail time. And of course he took the deal. 603 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,800 The problem became that the deal didn't sit well with 604 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,880 a lot of people locally and then nationally, there was 605 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,960 a lot of outrage. Another case that became political and 606 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,159 became something that was mentioned by a lot of politicians 607 00:35:49,199 --> 00:35:52,280 as well as the folks on TikTok and so as 608 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,840 a result of all of the outrage, would a retired 609 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,639 judge from Illinois subsequently petitioned the court to assign a 610 00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:04,159 special prosecutor to get to the whole truth of what happened, 611 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,599 and Dan Webb, a former US attorney, sought to prosecute 612 00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:13,039 Jesse Smullett a second time. Charges were filed. Charges are 613 00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,000 dropped after a deal. The deal didn't go down well, 614 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:20,840 so a second indictment was secured. The case went to trial. 615 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,920 The jury found Jesse Smullett guilty on five counts of 616 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,559 disorderly conduct. His sentence was five months in jail, but 617 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:31,199 he only served six days before he was released on appeal. 618 00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:35,000 Smollett was reprimanded by the judge during his sentencing, who 619 00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:37,920 told him his actions harmed real victims of hate crimes, 620 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:41,360 which yes absolutely. He was also ordered to pay back 621 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,800 the one hundred and twenty thousand dollars the Chicago p 622 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,599 D spent on their investigation into the incident. 623 00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 2: I think one of the reasons why there was so 624 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,320 much outrage and why there ended up being this second 625 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,719 indictment in trial is because Chicago's taken a lot of 626 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,599 bad raps in the last couple of years. They've really 627 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:04,519 strugg with street level violence and an escalation of murder. 628 00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:08,559 While they're trying to deal with all of that, Smollett 629 00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:12,880 comes along and makes this baseless charge about being attacked 630 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,880 in a hate crime, and I feel like this was 631 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,039 yet another smack in the face for Chicago, and a 632 00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:22,840 lot of people in Chicago and across the country were 633 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:28,239 really outraged by the original sweetheart deal that he had gotten, 634 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,000 and so I do understand why they took another go 635 00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:35,679 round with charging him with making these false claims. 636 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 3: This brings us to several days ago, when the Illinois 637 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,880 Supreme Court overturned Jesse Smollett's conviction, agreeing with his legal 638 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,480 team that he had been unjustly prosecuted after having already 639 00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:56,039 reached a plea deal. Quote. They argued that prosecuting him 640 00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,920 again for the same crime after he had agreed to 641 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,320 a non prosecut cuti agreement with the Cook County State 642 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,639 Attorney's office constituted double jeopardy, violating his right to do process. 643 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 2: I get it, I do understand it. You can understand 644 00:38:12,039 --> 00:38:14,920 how and why people were so upset when Cook County 645 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,960 originally gave him such a sweetheart deal the first time around. 646 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,519 Speaker 3: So Supreme Court Justice Elizabeth Rochford wrote in her opinion, quote, 647 00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:29,000 today we resolve a question about the state's responsibility to 648 00:38:29,199 --> 00:38:33,280 honor the agreements it makes with defendants. We are aware 649 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,599 that this case has generated significant public interest and that 650 00:38:37,679 --> 00:38:41,000 many people were dissatisfied with the resolution of the original 651 00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:45,719 case and believed it to be unjust. Nevertheless, what would 652 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,760 be more unjust than the resolution of any one criminal 653 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,519 case would be a holding from this court that the 654 00:38:53,559 --> 00:38:57,800 state was not bound to honor agreements upon which people 655 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,639 have detrimentally relied. 656 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 2: The judge makes a lot of sense. I do get it, 657 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,719 But I also do understand why people were so outraged. 658 00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:13,519 This whole thing was a gross, made up story that 659 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,880 kind of diminished real people who've really been attacked in 660 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,159 hate crimes. And for this fool to claim that he 661 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,960 was attacked in a racist, homophobic attack, and then it 662 00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:28,960 turns out the whole thing fell apart, and quite quickly, 663 00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:31,599 by the way, the police got to the bottom of 664 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:36,440 this within days. It's a shame that they couldn't come 665 00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:39,639 up with a more appropriate plea deal, and not something 666 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,719 that was such a sweetheart deal that allowed this guy 667 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,199 to walk away essentially unscathed. I do understand the judge's 668 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,239 point about double jeopardy. All of this just makes me 669 00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:56,519 think very little of this particular individual and his attempt 670 00:39:56,599 --> 00:40:01,880 to acquire more fame, more leverage, more riches. I don't know. 671 00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:07,000 I was searching for Jesse Smolette motive, and that's all 672 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:09,159 we can come up with is he wasn't happy with 673 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,440 his status on the TV series Empire. 674 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is very confounding case, and again I understand 675 00:40:18,159 --> 00:40:22,719 why the Illinois Supreme Court overturned it. But it's also 676 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,760 one of those things where, yes, you have to abide 677 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,000 by the letter of the law, is that necessarily the 678 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:31,440 right thing to be doing? And that, I think is 679 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,719 where you have those sorts of discussions. Was what actually 680 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,039 happened fair? No, he got a deal that most people 681 00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:41,800 would not get. Did he get that deal because of 682 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,719 the fact that he was a Hollywood actor? Maybe? Probably? 683 00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:49,480 And so then I guess what does that say about 684 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,000 the justice that we give to people with more money 685 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,519 versus the justice that we give to people who do 686 00:40:55,559 --> 00:40:58,519 not have enough? And I think that's a whole other 687 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,400 can of worms we open up when we talk about 688 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:02,679 things related to this case. 689 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 2: And then finally, one quick update on a case we've 690 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,360 been following now for several years, and that's the Idaho 691 00:41:10,559 --> 00:41:16,199 for murders. It was recently announced that Brian Coberger, who 692 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,360 is the suspect in this case, he's accused of murdering 693 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,639 for University of Idaho students. That's not two years ago. 694 00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:26,920 The courts have decided that he may indeed face the 695 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,440 death penalty. There's a lot of question now about where 696 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,800 this trial may go. First of all, it's been moved 697 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,119 to Boise, Idaho, being that he might not be able 698 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:42,039 to get a fair trial if the jury was selected 699 00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:46,519 from individuals from close to the University of Idaho. With 700 00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:51,159 this case having gotten so much publicity, Idaho has an 701 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:55,519 open issue, which is, if someone like Coburger were found 702 00:41:55,599 --> 00:42:00,199 guilty and sentenced to death, there's a question as to 703 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:03,840 how that death sentence would actually be carried out. They 704 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,920 have attempted to put some prisoners to death by injection, 705 00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:12,679 but they've had real difficulty actually successfully killing people by 706 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,000 lethal injection, and they've actually brought back the firing squad 707 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:23,400 as an option, which sounds like pretty archaic. Although from 708 00:42:23,559 --> 00:42:27,559 us what I've read about what goes on in death 709 00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:32,880 penalty cases, they can be pretty horrific. Too. Many medical 710 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,960 professionals refuse to participate in these executions, so they have 711 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,920 untrained people attempting to kill prisoners who've been found guilty 712 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,039 using pretty sloppy techniques. Some of this borders on just 713 00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:53,360 horrific experiences in the death chamber when they are not 714 00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:55,719 able to put these people to death. And these people 715 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,039 are in agony, which was never the point of the 716 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:03,599 death penalty. You're supposed to be executed swiftly and humanely, 717 00:43:04,559 --> 00:43:07,159 so it'll be very interesting to see where this goes. 718 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,920 Apparently Coburger's defense team has not come up with an 719 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,480 acceptable alternative, that is, an actual method of carrying out 720 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,480 the death penalty, and we're obviously quite a ways away 721 00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:23,360 from a final resolution here. His trial's supposed to begin 722 00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:26,840 in August twenty twenty five, and they're hoping to have 723 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,079 the trial wrapped up by the end of the year, 724 00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:31,079 so that would be about a year from now. 725 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 3: Again, not swift or speedy in terms of terms of 726 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,599 seeing justice done here either, No, without question, that is 727 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:44,440 going to do it. For this episode of True Crime 728 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,920 News Roundup, we are recording this on November twenty fifth, 729 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,559 So we would like to wish each and every one 730 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:56,800 of you a very happy Thanksgiving. For our US listeners 731 00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,480 and for everyone else overseas, we hope you have a 732 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,800 wonderful Thursday, with or without a very large meal and 733 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:08,719 shopping afterward. Thank you to everyone for listening. Please make 734 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:14,519 sure that you like and subscribe, interact with us on Facebook, Instagram. 735 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:16,400 We're probably going to have to join this whole Blue 736 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,199 Sky thing, which I think is taking the place of X. 737 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 2: I'm there now, Oh, there you have. 738 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas is on Blue Sky. I haven't joined it yet. 739 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,800 I don't need more social media in my life. We'll 740 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,760 try to figure it out somehow. We do encourage you 741 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,920 as we head into the holiday shopping season. If you 742 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,559 are looking for mind Over Murder merchandise, please do check 743 00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:36,360 out our stuff on Tea Public. We will start posting 744 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,039 links to that and we will post the True Crime 745 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,519 Holiday Gift Guide coming soon on the mind Over Murder 746 00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:46,199 Facebook and social media pages. 747 00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:50,559 Speaker 2: I'll have a wonderful and happy holiday season. I guess 748 00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:51,440 it's upon us. 749 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 3: It is upon us rapidly. That is going to do it. 750 00:44:55,039 --> 00:44:57,320 For this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so 751 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,960 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 752 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:13,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 753 00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:14,639 Another Dog Productions. 754 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:18,559 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 755 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 756 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 757 00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 758 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 759 00:45:32,599 --> 00:45:35,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 760 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,079 murders on Facebook. 761 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 762 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,559 Bill Thomas. Five six. 763 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder 764 00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:03,079 Speaker 3: Cont