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<v Speaker 1>Hello on Michael Connolly, and you're listening to Killer in

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<v Speaker 1>the Code Solving the Black Dalia and Zodiac Cases. This

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<v Speaker 1>is chapter ten. And since we began this podcast eight

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<v Speaker 1>weeks ago and exposed the suspect behind two of the

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<v Speaker 1>most infamous crimes of the last century, one man has

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<v Speaker 1>emerged as the villain in the investigation. And it's not

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<v Speaker 1>Marvin Margolis, the suspect we need. It is the investigator

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<v Speaker 1>who first named him. Ironically, it is citizens to lose

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<v Speaker 1>Alex Baber, who is the focus of upset and anger

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<v Speaker 1>in the online communities dedicated to these crimes and the

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<v Speaker 1>many theories about who perpetrated them. We're going to take

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<v Speaker 1>a hard look at Baber and retrace his path to

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<v Speaker 1>what might be the greatest cold case solve of the century.

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<v Speaker 1>Fifty year old Alex Baber is not a law enforced

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<v Speaker 1>an officer, never has been. He's an amateur and never

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<v Speaker 1>denies it. He describes himself as an autistic genius with

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<v Speaker 1>a gift for finding quote the hidden beneath the hidden.

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<v Speaker 1>He has a company called Cold Case Consultants of America

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<v Speaker 1>and offers his skills free of charge to those who

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<v Speaker 1>need answers. In their loved ones cases. He also conducts

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<v Speaker 1>his own investigations into some of the greatest mysteries of

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<v Speaker 1>our time, bringing with him a unique sense of perception, logic,

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<v Speaker 1>and confidence. One of those mysteries was the long unsolved

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<v Speaker 1>Zodiac case. Baber's skill set allowed him to do what

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<v Speaker 1>most claimed was undoable, that is, break the Z thirteen

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<v Speaker 1>cipher left behind by the Zodiac more than fifty years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>The Z thirteen, so named for its thirteen digits, is

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<v Speaker 1>also known as the my name is cipher because then

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<v Speaker 1>the letter sent to the San Francisco Chronicle that contained

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<v Speaker 1>it the Zodiac claimed that the code contained his name.

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<v Speaker 1>With the help of a self written AI program, Baber

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<v Speaker 1>broke the code after a month long project to weed

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<v Speaker 1>through more than seventy million possible names that fit the cipher,

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<v Speaker 1>including the requirement that the solution contained three letters twice

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<v Speaker 1>and won three times. The resulting solution, the name Marvin Merrill,

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<v Speaker 1>turned out to be the alias for Marvin Margolis, a

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<v Speaker 1>prime suspect in the nineteen forty seven murder in Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles of Elizabeth Short, better known as the Black Dahlia.

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<v Speaker 1>Baber then enlisted a team of investigators to help carry

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<v Speaker 1>his discovery forward. These were not amateurs. They included Rick

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<v Speaker 1>Jackson and Missy Roberts, both recently retired from the Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles Police Department, where they worked commisized for decades. Roberts

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<v Speaker 1>had just retired the supervisor of the cold Case unit,

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<v Speaker 1>where she was custodian of the Black Dalia case for

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen years. Baber's announcement of a solution to the Cipher

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<v Speaker 1>and his linking of the Zodiac and Black Dalia cases

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<v Speaker 1>set off a firestorm of debate and pushedback, most of

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<v Speaker 1>which was aimed personally at Baber. His motives were questioned,

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<v Speaker 1>his honesty was questioned, and despite the independent confirmation by

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<v Speaker 1>three veteran codebreakers formerly with the National Security Agency, his

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<v Speaker 1>Z thirteen solution was questioned as well. Did I say questioned?

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<v Speaker 1>That is probably too polite a word. Baber has been

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<v Speaker 1>attacked by the naysayers, most often with misinformation and no

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<v Speaker 1>shortage of vitriol. So what is it about Alex Baber

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<v Speaker 1>that upsetsed so many people? Obviously, many of his critics

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<v Speaker 1>are well invested in competing theories as to who committed

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<v Speaker 1>these crimes. If Baber is right, then they're wrong, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's more to it than that. And even Baber knows.

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<v Speaker 2>That I'm easy to dislike, and I think it's my

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<v Speaker 2>personality and it's non intentional. I come across sometimes arrogant

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<v Speaker 2>and conceited. It's confidence to me, but there's also a

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<v Speaker 2>degree that I don't necessarily show the public of me

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<v Speaker 2>being humble behind the scenes. If people could see me

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<v Speaker 2>at two in the morning when I get frustrated because

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm I've almost I'm almost there or I'm

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<v Speaker 2>almost identified. I feel it and I know it's there,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm just not able to reach it yet. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, while I have to represent the agency and

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<v Speaker 2>my people as being you know, strong and good at

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<v Speaker 2>what we do, we're still human and they make mistakes,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, it's it's hard for me to sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>admit that because I feel like I failed, but I've

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<v Speaker 2>also learned it failures what got me where I'm at today.

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<v Speaker 2>I not failed at Z eighteen. I would have never

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<v Speaker 2>approached thirteen the way that I did. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that's one of the things that I'm grateful for is

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<v Speaker 2>that with age, I've learned to allow myself to be

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<v Speaker 2>more human and not not so insensitive to people or

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<v Speaker 2>to what they see me as or what they want

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<v Speaker 2>to see me ask I should say.

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<v Speaker 1>Rick Jackson has worked closely with Baber for almost a year.

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<v Speaker 1>I point blank asked him what the deal was with Baber?

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<v Speaker 1>How come so many people line up again? Instant?

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<v Speaker 3>His personality can come off sometimes very impatient, It can

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<v Speaker 3>come off arrogant, and I think part of that is

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<v Speaker 3>the way he's described how his autism has affected his

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<v Speaker 3>personality style, his directness at times, sometimes his maybe moodiness

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit. But with all that being said, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I've been working criminal investigations for you know,

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<v Speaker 3>four decades now, thirty six in homicide, and you work

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<v Speaker 3>with all different types of people. We as investigators look

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<v Speaker 3>at evidence, and when Alex presented this, despite him coming

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<v Speaker 3>off a little bit cocky at times, I couldn't just

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<v Speaker 3>kind of walk away from this. I was compelled with

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<v Speaker 3>the evidence to move forward. And AMIDSTI, Roberts, when I

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<v Speaker 3>explained my interest in having her come on board, has

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<v Speaker 3>told me the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>I have to add.

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<v Speaker 3>Another thing is when he has met with other law enforcement,

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<v Speaker 3>some of the feedback I've gotten is he's so arrogant,

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<v Speaker 3>and again I explain about his background and such, and

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<v Speaker 3>I said, he's just so driven and determined. When he

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<v Speaker 3>gets on something, he does not let it go. And

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<v Speaker 3>that's part of his personality and part of his autistic nature.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's also given him the drive to put together

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<v Speaker 3>what he's put together, which to me, again is very,

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<v Speaker 3>very very compelling evidence. I don't care what anybody says.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm compelled by it.

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<v Speaker 1>Babers a high school dropout. He grew up in rural Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>People online like to claim he grew up in Ohio

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<v Speaker 1>and finished high school there got the wrong, Baber. Imagine

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<v Speaker 1>having to defend yourself as a high school dropout. Even further,

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<v Speaker 1>imagine having to defend yourself against allegations that there weren't

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<v Speaker 1>killers in your family as you have claimed. That's how

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<v Speaker 1>weupside down the internet can get. But unfortunately for Baber,

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<v Speaker 1>it is true. And Christmas Eve nineteen sixty nine, his

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<v Speaker 1>uncle murdered his aunt and her husband, a double killing

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<v Speaker 1>witness by a sheriff's deputy. Family laure also held that

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<v Speaker 1>his grandfather was a killer as well, a man who

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<v Speaker 1>went unprosecuted because of his standing in the community and

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<v Speaker 1>the lack of standing of the migrant workers. You may

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<v Speaker 1>disappear diagnose with autism. As a teenager, Baber retreated from

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<v Speaker 1>school and disappeared into reading. The fictional hero that inspired

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<v Speaker 1>it was named Sherlock Holmes.

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<v Speaker 2>That some across a Sherlock Holmes book one time and

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<v Speaker 2>had no interest in it at first, But once I

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<v Speaker 2>started reading it, you know, out chapter or two in

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<v Speaker 2>it kind of you know, had my attention to the

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<v Speaker 2>point to where I couldn't put the book down. So

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<v Speaker 2>I ended up reading the book straight through. And I

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<v Speaker 2>kind of related to him having, you know, this desire

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<v Speaker 2>to want to to help people and to believe that

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<v Speaker 2>no cases is unsolvable. And you know his books, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no matter how difficult, how complex they murder may be

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<v Speaker 2>or disappearance, he always figures it out.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>He never never gives up. He believes in himself, he

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<v Speaker 2>believes his abilities, and he always finds a way. He was,

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<v Speaker 2>in all likely that probably autistic long before the term

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<v Speaker 2>ember existed. He was definitely a CD, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>that his brain was not wired the way that your

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<v Speaker 2>average individuals would be or or as mine. As you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been told many times by my doctors as well

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<v Speaker 2>as people who know me that I don't necessarily think

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<v Speaker 2>the same way everybody else does in it ring.

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<v Speaker 1>The next hero that captured Baber's unsettled mind wasn't a

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<v Speaker 1>fictional character. It was Alan Turing, the English mathematician and

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<v Speaker 1>cryptanalyst known as the father of computer science and who

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<v Speaker 1>played a crucial role in decrypting intercepted messages from the

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<v Speaker 1>Germans during World War Two and helped the Allies defeat

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<v Speaker 1>the access power.

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<v Speaker 2>Allan's more of a hero to me that he is

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<v Speaker 2>an inspiration alone. You know what he did for Darrel

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<v Speaker 2>Worth two, taking the Enigma machine which was to be uncrackable,

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<v Speaker 2>right believed to be. And he would take no financier either.

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<v Speaker 2>You know he when everybody resisted his vision, they literally,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean the guy went through a degree of abatists.

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<v Speaker 2>To be honest with you, if you ever watched the

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<v Speaker 2>documentary and reached some of the literature, and he never wavered.

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<v Speaker 2>Just the idea of tackling a problem of that magnitude

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<v Speaker 2>and then achieving the objective to where they say he

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<v Speaker 2>shortened the war by two years, and I believe that

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<v Speaker 2>he saved on probably millions of lives. His way of

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<v Speaker 2>thought was just not your traditional meanings. Whenever he looked

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<v Speaker 2>at things, he looked at you like he was the

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<v Speaker 2>father of Ai. You know, on zero one he was

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning of what we have today.

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<v Speaker 1>Dabor said he became fixated on the Zodiac killer ciphers,

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<v Speaker 1>including disease thirteen, nearly twenty years ago, from the moment

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<v Speaker 1>he walked out of a movie theater where he had

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<v Speaker 1>seen the David Fincher directed film Zodiac. It led him

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<v Speaker 1>down a path that was fraught with amateur missteps and

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<v Speaker 1>false moves he would later regret, and that would provide

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<v Speaker 1>misunderstood fodder for his detractors today. Like the boy who

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<v Speaker 1>cried Wolf, Baber had been crying I solved it for years,

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<v Speaker 1>only it hasn't been the same suspect each time. Though

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<v Speaker 1>it was a trial and error process. The Internet has

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<v Speaker 1>been unforgiving. In this era of Internet saluting, where expert

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<v Speaker 1>status is granted the people who have never investigated a

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<v Speaker 1>single crime, let alone a cold case murder, Baber ironically

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<v Speaker 1>finds himself facing Internet denizens defending the man he is

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<v Speaker 1>accused and whose own family has worked with Baber and

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<v Speaker 1>turned over the most compelling evidence gathered in his investigation.

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<v Speaker 1>He has faced the scorn of amateur cryptanalysts who say

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<v Speaker 1>Baber and the independent team of cryptanalysts with more than

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred years of combined code breaking for the NSA

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<v Speaker 1>are wrong. To me. This is the flip side of

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<v Speaker 1>the Golden State Killer case, where the work of an

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<v Speaker 1>amateur saluth inspired law enforcement to identify a serial killer

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<v Speaker 1>who had escaped justice for decades. This time it is

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<v Speaker 1>the amateur sleuth who's the villain. I sat down to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to Baber about all this and discussed the crooked

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<v Speaker 1>paths he took to the Z thirteen solution, and Marvin

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<v Speaker 1>Margol was ak Marvin Merrill.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>In beginning, having no understanding of cryptography outside of the

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<v Speaker 2>average individual, I attacked the or attempted to decrypt the

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<v Speaker 2>Z eighteen, which is the final eighteen symbols of the

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<v Speaker 2>Z four oh eight that the artists weren't able to

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<v Speaker 2>to identify the key for it. And I tried to

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<v Speaker 2>make a suspect fit a letter frequency or character account,

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<v Speaker 2>and I used anagrammy and while the name fit it,

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<v Speaker 2>later I realized that that's not how cryptography works, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you go in with a suspect in mind, you

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<v Speaker 2>can make just not anybody's name fit if you've been

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<v Speaker 2>the rules and you don't stick to the methodologies that

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<v Speaker 2>you need. And it took me over a decade to

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<v Speaker 2>realize that, you know, to me, almost fifteen years he

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<v Speaker 2>realized it.

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<v Speaker 1>To be honest with you, the suspect he pursued all

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<v Speaker 1>those years was Lawrence Klein, who many to this day

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<v Speaker 1>believed was the Zodiac Killer. Like Margolis, he moved around

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<v Speaker 1>often and employed several aliases, including variations of the last

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<v Speaker 1>name Kane. Maybe fixated on him because this high intellect

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<v Speaker 1>in training made him the perfect author the Zodiac ciphers.

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<v Speaker 1>Going down this rabbit hole allowed Baber to put him

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<v Speaker 1>in proximity to other infamous unsolved cases, and Baber wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>shy about going to the Internet with his findings. Klein

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<v Speaker 1>died in twenty ten in Nevada, but before that, Baber

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<v Speaker 1>reported that a man had called him on a phone

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<v Speaker 1>with a Nevada area code to discuss that case just

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<v Speaker 1>two days after he posted his z eighteen solution online.

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<v Speaker 1>Baber believed at the time it was the Zodiac Lawrence Klein.

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<v Speaker 1>There are many Baber detractors on the Internet who conflate

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<v Speaker 1>his activities regarding Klein with his more recent findings and

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<v Speaker 1>point out inconsistencies, for example, asking how could Marvin Margolis

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<v Speaker 1>have called Baber in two thousand and seven when he

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<v Speaker 1>died in nineteen ninety three. Well, the short answer to

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<v Speaker 1>that is that he didn't, and Baber has not claimed so.

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<v Speaker 1>Baber continued to name Klein as the zodiac into his

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<v Speaker 1>late as twenty twenty two, before coming to terms with

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<v Speaker 1>having gone down the wrong path.

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<v Speaker 2>I realized that there's no way he was a zombiac.

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<v Speaker 2>I was able to eliminate him as a suspect.

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<v Speaker 1>All the while, Baber was refining his knowledge of cryptology,

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<v Speaker 1>being self taught in most of his life skills. He

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<v Speaker 1>started over.

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<v Speaker 2>Once I understood how pryotography worked from a scientific point,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a different journey for me, because then I

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<v Speaker 2>had to get back to square one, and I tackled

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<v Speaker 2>the z thirteen believing that he did in fact provide

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<v Speaker 2>his name. And in order to do that to a

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<v Speaker 2>different perspective anybody before me in history, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>get every possible solution and eliminate them into ail. They

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<v Speaker 2>had one man standing and that was a very long,

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<v Speaker 2>difficult road. It's hard for people to grasp that or

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<v Speaker 2>comprehend that. You know, they say what they will, but

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<v Speaker 2>they weren't there with me, working, you know, eighteen twenty

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<v Speaker 2>hour days, six seventies a week, and I failed many

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<v Speaker 2>at times before I got to where I was at.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just you know, all go and butterflies and lollipops.

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<v Speaker 2>There was times that I thought I'd give it up.

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<v Speaker 1>To be honest with you, We've tried to explain this,

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<v Speaker 1>or I think we have, but as you just said,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't register with a lot of people. Can you talk.

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<v Speaker 4>About how you created a list of seventy one million

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<v Speaker 4>possible names that would fit that site for that thirteen

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<v Speaker 4>digit cipher, and people must keep in mind.

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<v Speaker 1>There were some rules to those thirteen digits where I

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<v Speaker 1>think three symbols were repeated twice and one was repeated

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<v Speaker 1>three times, and that creates rules for what names can

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<v Speaker 1>fit in there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we had to have some assumptions in order to

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<v Speaker 2>even consider tackling it the way that I had envisioned.

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<v Speaker 2>We had to assume that the key to the Z

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<v Speaker 2>thirteen would be a monolphabetical meaning one letter to one character,

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<v Speaker 2>not a homophonic. You add in a homophonic, then the

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<v Speaker 2>Z thirteen would be impossible to crack because you could

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<v Speaker 2>have multiple aathdical letters representing one symbol. So that cut

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<v Speaker 2>down considerably the potential candidates as I referred to them. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 2>I had to identify an establish methodology. We couldn't use antagrammy,

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<v Speaker 2>and I learned that from two thousand and seven, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>with the Lawrence kleient Kane solution that I developed from

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<v Speaker 2>the Z eighteen. So taking that into consideration and realizing

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<v Speaker 2>that we couldn't go down that road again, I had

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<v Speaker 2>to approach it with every possible solution based on the

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<v Speaker 2>number of characters and letter frequency possibilities. So I had

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<v Speaker 2>to go and get every possible name that was out there,

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<v Speaker 2>and the best route to do that was the Ssassays

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<v Speaker 2>Treaty administration. If I get every male first and middle

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<v Speaker 2>name and then every documented surname and upload those and

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<v Speaker 2>start pairing them together, whether it be a first name only,

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<v Speaker 2>that's thirteen characters first name, middle name combination first name,

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<v Speaker 2>middle initial, last name, first initial, middle name, last name.

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<v Speaker 2>I had to have every possibility in order to be

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<v Speaker 2>sure that I covered because I couldn't leave any open

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<v Speaker 2>doors because I knew that when we shared this with

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<v Speaker 2>the public, they become a pitchforks and torches, and I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to make sure that I at least had every

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<v Speaker 2>possible variable covered.

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<v Speaker 1>Baby used an AI program to weigh through the massive

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<v Speaker 1>database and whittle it down.

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<v Speaker 2>Once I had the grouping of the names, meaning the

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<v Speaker 2>possible quote unquote candidates, at that point I had to

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<v Speaker 2>eliminate them, and that's where AI came in. AI allowed

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<v Speaker 2>me to crawl the web.

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<v Speaker 1>The program eliminated candidates based on parameters of race, gender, age, geography,

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<v Speaker 1>and many other factors. When the database was reduced to

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<v Speaker 1>double digits, a more intense forensic examination of each candidate occurred.

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<v Speaker 1>The last man standing was Marvin Merrill. The digital pitchforks

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<v Speaker 1>and tortures Baber mentioned did indeed come and continue to come,

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<v Speaker 1>but Baby remained undaunted. He says the mistakes of the

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<v Speaker 1>past have made him a better and smarter investigator, smart

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<v Speaker 1>enough to bring in professional homicide investigators like Jackson and

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<v Speaker 1>Roberts to backcheck his work, and honest enough to turn

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<v Speaker 1>his work over without hesitation to the team of NSA

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<v Speaker 1>code breakers led by Ed Georgio, the only man in

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<v Speaker 1>NSA history to serve as the agency's chief code breaker

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<v Speaker 1>and code maker. Georgio put together a team with more

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<v Speaker 1>than one hundred years experience in code breaking for the

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<v Speaker 1>government agency. They backchecked Baber's work and came up with

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<v Speaker 1>the same result. They also attacked the cipher from the

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<v Speaker 1>standpoint of the author with the Zodiac and discovered keywords

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<v Speaker 1>that further confirmed the work.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, there's vanishingly small odds that Martin Merrow is not

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<v Speaker 5>the guy.

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<v Speaker 1>Georgio told me that Baber belongs on the Mount Rushmore

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<v Speaker 1>of Zodiac codebreakers. He added that his team's conclusions withstand

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<v Speaker 1>the popular Internet claim that a cipher as short as

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<v Speaker 1>thirteen digits is unbreakable.

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<v Speaker 5>So a short cipher about which nothing is known often

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<v Speaker 5>cannot be broken. But the fact that such a cipher

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<v Speaker 5>sometimes cannot be broken is not the same as saying

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<v Speaker 5>it can never be broken, especially when real world's constraints

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<v Speaker 5>are involved, and for some ciphers, under sufficient conditions, a

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<v Speaker 5>solution can nearly always be found.

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<v Speaker 1>Paper is continuing his investigation of Marvin Merrill and with

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<v Speaker 1>the backing of professionals like Giorgio and others who have

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<v Speaker 1>actually done the work, he remains undaunted by the Pitchfords

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<v Speaker 1>and Torches. These days, he is often reminded of his

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<v Speaker 1>hero Alan Torrey.

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<v Speaker 2>He's here today, He's present every day I can help

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<v Speaker 2>my log into my computer. He's here because without him,

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>able to achieve what I've achieved with their team.

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<v Speaker 1>And you have the.

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<v Speaker 2>World telling you that you can't do something, and you

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<v Speaker 2>believe in your heart of arts that you can, and

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<v Speaker 2>that you refuse to take no for an answer. It

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<v Speaker 2>does ring on whenever you look at somebody like him,

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<v Speaker 2>who saved so many lives and did what he was

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<v Speaker 2>able to do at the time. You know, I just

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<v Speaker 2>I would. I'm inspired by him.

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<v Speaker 1>You have been listening to Killer in the Code Solving

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<v Speaker 1>the Black Dahia and Zodiac cases. This episode was written

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<v Speaker 1>and produced by me Michael Connolly and was edited by

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<v Speaker 1>Teroll Lee Langford, with music and post production services by

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Henry Phillips. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>so you can be informed the future episodes when they

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<v Speaker 1>come out. Many thanks for listening,