Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: What Welcome to the Occult Rejects. In this episode, we
Speaker 4: got a part two to the call Crusher. I guess
Speaker 4: growing up in womanism and today co hosting with me.
Speaker 4: We got Teresa, we got Thrash, and we got Mike.
Speaker 4: Thank you both for all three of us for jumping
Speaker 4: on tonight and making it happen with me. If you
Speaker 4: want to check out any of this stuff, I will
Speaker 4: leave their links in the bottom and I'll have them
Speaker 4: plug themselves at the end of the show. And Carl,
Speaker 4: my man, thank you very much for coming back on again.
Speaker 4: It's always great, great chats. You know, you're already blowing
Speaker 4: my mind before the show. It's this new stuff you
Speaker 4: got going on that it's like, damn, I want to
Speaker 4: talk about this now instead of the other topic.
Speaker 2: But I gotta finish. I got to finish, you know,
Speaker 2: finish this. But we will get we will get to it.
Speaker 4: So I'm telling you, you know, definitely wait to the
Speaker 4: end of the show.
Speaker 2: We'll be going into something a little.
Speaker 4: Bit different besides what the show is completely about. But Carl, please,
Speaker 4: in case there's new listeners by the time this drops.
Speaker 4: Let everybody know where they can find your work and
Speaker 4: what you're about a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just look online, especially on YouTube for Carl Crusher.
Speaker 1: That's the name that I go by, so it's easy
Speaker 1: to spell and remember. I post all of my content
Speaker 1: and work on there. If I'm going to different research
Speaker 1: locations to investigate strange phenomena or mysteries at different places
Speaker 1: or whatever, I document all of it. Working with the
Speaker 1: History Channel or Discovery Channel and different side projects like that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I post all of that all over. You
Speaker 1: can find me as Carl Crusher everywhere we listen.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 4: And you know, I will say, and I've pretty much
Speaker 4: mentioned it every time I have him on The Magic
Speaker 4: Mesa and a few other episodes that I've watched from
Speaker 4: him from around that time. I think he's some of
Speaker 4: the best in my opinion on paranormal footage on YouTube.
Speaker 4: You know, there's actually like legit shit that I think
Speaker 4: is simple but actually mind blowing at the same time
Speaker 4: to show you that there's something going on that I
Speaker 4: always aren't picking up.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, for sure, there's definitely something too, like
Speaker 1: ancient indigenous locations that I realized that people were who
Speaker 1: were highly qualified and highly funded and contracted with the
Speaker 1: government or working for the government, were very interested in
Speaker 1: the same thing, like going to these ancient sacred sites
Speaker 1: that they called access points on the longitudinal nodes of
Speaker 1: the array, that's how they talked about it. But they
Speaker 1: they were spots that they considered like ancient indigenous locations
Speaker 1: where you could go and sit there and meditate and
Speaker 1: it would amplify psychic abilities. And they were like super
Speaker 1: into that clear back into the nineteen seventies and eighties,
Speaker 1: and when I kind of figured that out, I got
Speaker 1: really fascinated with it. And Magic Mesa is one of
Speaker 1: those places. It's definitely I nicknamed it that Magic Mesa
Speaker 1: because it's full of that kind of phenomena, Like you
Speaker 1: can go and sit there at night, and when you're quiet,
Speaker 1: you'll swear that you hear voices of people that just
Speaker 1: are not there, like you'll hear a woman talking, or
Speaker 1: you'll hear someone ride right past you, like a cowboy
Speaker 1: on horseback and there's literally nobody there. And then just
Speaker 1: all kinds of strange stuff, even seeing like UFOs and
Speaker 1: strange plasma lights on the hillside that flow around all
Speaker 1: kinds of cool stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you even had some cool stuff with that Mount
Speaker 4: Wilson ran to that I found interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's allegedly a UFO hiding underground, which is like
Speaker 1: a big thing. Like Ross Coltard just came out on
Speaker 1: News Nation and they've been doing all these specials, like
Speaker 1: multiple interviews with these Green Berets and Delta Force operators
Speaker 1: that are coming out as whistleblowers as part of the
Speaker 1: actual UFO crash recovery program for the government that have
Speaker 1: done it for over a decade, and they're coming out
Speaker 1: on the news and saying that these UFOs are coming
Speaker 1: out of the mountain. They're like phasing right out of
Speaker 1: the ground. They'll just come out of the ground and
Speaker 1: out of the mountain, and then they use what they
Speaker 1: call psionic assets or like a remote viewer that's part
Speaker 1: of the Green Beret team with the unit, and they
Speaker 1: use telepathy to take control of the UFO and either
Speaker 1: land it or to crash it. And then the the
Speaker 1: Green Beret Delta Force team goes in and they capture
Speaker 1: it in the entities and everything. And this has all
Speaker 1: just come out in like the last week and a half.
Speaker 1: It's kind of wild. So like, yeah, over there at
Speaker 1: the Mount Wilson and Nevada is one of those spots
Speaker 1: that big ol Aerospace back in the day with how
Speaker 1: put Off and those original remote viewers and a bunch
Speaker 1: of scientists were up there looking for one of these
Speaker 1: things that was like hiding underground, like some chamber that
Speaker 1: has a UFO in it or some kind of a
Speaker 1: object in it. So yeah, we worked with the History
Speaker 1: Channel and part of Skinwalker Ranch to try and bring
Speaker 1: some people out of the government and a bunch of
Speaker 1: funding and equipment with drones and ground penetrating radar, and
Speaker 1: we tried to find this thing and where it was
Speaker 1: and then try to communicate with it. And we did
Speaker 1: that for two seasons on the History Channel on a
Speaker 1: show called Beyond Skinwalker Ranch.
Speaker 4: It's awesome. Good for you, Good for you. Can you
Speaker 4: plug your upcoming thing or is that like something you
Speaker 4: can't talk about it.
Speaker 1: I don't think I sign an NBA so well, I
Speaker 1: think I can plug it. I don't know when it's
Speaker 1: going to come out, but there's a on Discovery Channel.
Speaker 1: My last trip when I went over to Norway as
Speaker 1: part of Project Hestalen, I went over there and my
Speaker 1: first day there, I did an experiment where I did
Speaker 1: meditation with a small group of people, and then on
Speaker 1: the night vision camera, I filmed a UFO that appeared
Speaker 1: in the sky and came down and like landed on
Speaker 1: the ground on the other side of the lake and
Speaker 1: moved around all weird, kind of like the Rendel schump
Speaker 1: for since it, I filmed like over twenty minutes of this,
Speaker 1: so excuse me. The Discovery Channel saw that footage and
Speaker 1: they actually wanted to use that footage. They did a
Speaker 1: whole interview with me, and then they went over to
Speaker 1: Norway and filmed like two whole episodes where they tried
Speaker 1: to replicate like the whole thing, like the meditation experiment
Speaker 1: and stuff. So that's a whole new thing that's going
Speaker 1: to be coming out. I don't know if it's on
Speaker 1: Expedition X is the name of the show or whatnot,
Speaker 1: but I'm I'm supposed to be interviewed on camera with
Speaker 1: the host and then they're gonna show some of my
Speaker 1: footage and then the team from Discovery Channel goes to
Speaker 1: Norway and and does the same thing.
Speaker 2: That's really very cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, nice Carl.
Speaker 5: Have you heard of a guy named George Van Tassel.
Speaker 1: Sounds super familiar if you jog my memory for a second.
Speaker 5: Okay, so have you heard of Giant Rock And.
Speaker 6: It's okay, it's in Landers, California, Yes, yes, and it's
Speaker 6: it's basically the start of a lot of the UFO
Speaker 6: movement stuff. And they basically he had like a meet
Speaker 6: out at Giant Rock since like nineteen. I'm going to
Speaker 6: be wrong on the date, but let's just say fifty one. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and I basically had a group meditation that they would
Speaker 6: have out at the rock. And I just randomly stumbled
Speaker 6: upon it because one day I seen an article on
Speaker 6: an alien named Ashtar and my name is Ashton, So
Speaker 6: am I home?
Speaker 2: Weird?
Speaker 5: I wonder where that is? So I look it.
Speaker 6: Up and I literally grew up twenty minutes from that place.
Speaker 5: I had no clue or anything, but that same place.
Speaker 6: He built this place called it's called the Integatron, and
Speaker 6: he was supposed to have got like telepathic messages on
Speaker 6: how to build it, and then he passed away before
Speaker 6: it was ever complete.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was supposed to be like a big psychic resonator,
Speaker 1: like a dome all made of wood that you go
Speaker 1: in and lay down inside and you meditate, and then
Speaker 1: they would project your consciousness up into space. That was
Speaker 1: the same thing they were trying to do with the
Speaker 1: Big Rock. And it goes back to the idea of
Speaker 1: stone Hinge and all of the monoliths and megalists and
Speaker 1: even the pyramids, and this theory that they're part of
Speaker 1: a grid system that taps into the ether or of
Speaker 1: the electromagnetic field of the Earth. So just like we
Speaker 1: were saying, how like even in the Montalk project and everything,
Speaker 1: how they were looking at those ancestral nodes. There's like
Speaker 1: this invisible electromagnetic field that goes through all of reality.
Speaker 1: It goes through the whole Earth and everything like a
Speaker 1: big grid. So everything that you see is reality is
Speaker 1: full of this invisible electric field energy that's all connected. Basically,
Speaker 1: like they realized that there were certain places where that
Speaker 1: electric field runs longitudinally, like horizontally this way, like across
Speaker 1: the surface of the Earth, like in layers like a
Speaker 1: pancake or an onion. But then there's also transverse energy
Speaker 1: that goes up vertically that goes clear out into space
Speaker 1: and connects like through quantum entanglement. Everything. That's like how
Speaker 1: everything works with gravity and all that. But at these
Speaker 1: spots where the transverse and longitudinal waves cross, there's these
Speaker 1: X points that they call a node. And if you
Speaker 1: find one of those nodes and go sit in that node,
Speaker 1: there's usually weird geological formations, and there's also strange ancient artifacts.
Speaker 1: And usually it's this sacred site or there's some kind
Speaker 1: of a temple or petroglyphs or pyramids, or you're going
Speaker 1: to find something there that signifies that ancient people knew
Speaker 1: and could sense that there was a powerful place. And
Speaker 1: the idea is you go sit in that spot and
Speaker 1: then you go out of body, or you meditate or
Speaker 1: pray or do your ritual, and it's like you leave
Speaker 1: your brain and just the housing of your body and
Speaker 1: jump into that array. So all of a sudden, you
Speaker 1: can it's like jumping onto the Internet of the universe
Speaker 1: or whatever. So that's how remote viewing works, and telepathy,
Speaker 1: how getting messages from aliens and remote viewing, all that
Speaker 1: stuff works along that grid like this invisible Wi Fi system.
Speaker 1: But somehow ancient people knew that. And when you go
Speaker 1: to these spots, allegedly there's a lot of like you're
Speaker 1: going to find stone hinge or ancient petroglyphs or like
Speaker 1: the big stump like big round rock or whatever, and
Speaker 1: people will feel compelled, just like a homing pigeon or
Speaker 1: whatever to gather around and to like try and manifest
Speaker 1: their consciousness or to communicate with aliens and different stuff.
Speaker 1: There's like a strange energy there, but that's a that's
Speaker 1: a very common thing all over the place, and there's
Speaker 1: definitely something to it, and the government is really active
Speaker 1: and trying to figure all that out, find how it
Speaker 1: really works, find people that are good at it, and
Speaker 1: find ways to weaponize it, you know, And so that's
Speaker 1: a that's kind of the dark side of it, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a it's an interesting thing then, and there's definitely
Speaker 1: something to it.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Uh all right, not to get off the
Speaker 4: topic of this stuff, but we'll.
Speaker 2: Get back we'll get back to it.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 4: I think in the last episode we kind of like
Speaker 4: I think you talked about like the baptisms and like
Speaker 4: the marriages and stuff like that, the temples. I don't
Speaker 4: really nowhere else you wanted to go after that or
Speaker 4: any other things you want to get into.
Speaker 2: This is really tough to you.
Speaker 1: You know, we pretty much talked about like my upbringing
Speaker 1: and how strange that is, and really how they they
Speaker 1: don't tell you what goes on in the Temple. But
Speaker 1: when you're a little kid growing up, you're like singing
Speaker 1: songs about the Temple, about how you're excited to go
Speaker 1: go to the Temple and how you want to get
Speaker 1: married there someday and all this stuff. So you're like
Speaker 1: really looking forward to it. And when you just go
Speaker 1: to church on Sunday, it's very boring. You know, when
Speaker 1: I went, it was just you're singing hymns and you're
Speaker 1: sitting in meetings and you're being taught lessons about the
Speaker 1: leaders of the church and out of the Bible and
Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon, and it's pretty benign, and you're
Speaker 1: doing a lot of like work projects and weird service
Speaker 1: projects and stuff. But when you are older and you
Speaker 1: go to the Temple, then suddenly you're plunged into like
Speaker 1: this deep level of like Mormon version of Masonic initiations
Speaker 1: and stuff. But even as a kid, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of like weird memories where in conjunction with the cub
Speaker 1: Scouts or the Boy Scouts of America program and the
Speaker 1: relationship that it had with the church. Like as I
Speaker 1: was growing up, the profit of the church. He would
Speaker 1: say right over the pulpit to everybody that, like the
Speaker 1: cub Scouts and Boy Scouts of America was a part
Speaker 1: of the gospel, like trying to get your ego Scout
Speaker 1: was a part of being a faithful young man. I
Speaker 1: think that.
Speaker 2: I think that was like a paid advertisement.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the way that the church is really you know,
Speaker 1: with secret gut parts of the government and with other
Speaker 1: agencies like that, and the cub Scouts, it's super weird,
Speaker 1: you know what they were doing. But there is a
Speaker 1: lot of times where I was told, Hey, there's a
Speaker 1: cub Scout service project, and then I would dress up
Speaker 1: in my cub Scout uniform or not or whatever and
Speaker 1: then go meet up at the church with my friends.
Speaker 1: And then we would load up in a truck or
Speaker 1: in a van and go out to like state lands
Speaker 1: or public land or some government facility and do like
Speaker 1: child labor all day.
Speaker 7: Oh my god, this is the haven't you guys seen
Speaker 7: the movie or read the book Holes? Yes, Oh my god,
Speaker 7: what kid's describing. My kids just watched it like recently.
Speaker 7: That's so funny and I got them the book and
Speaker 7: they're like, Mom, this is scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. Have I told you guys the story
Speaker 1: on this show yet about how I was taken out
Speaker 1: to the facility that was doing genetic testing between goats
Speaker 1: and spiders.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that was fucked fucked out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was super weird. That was probably the weirdest
Speaker 1: one aside from going to do that.
Speaker 2: I think I missed that one. Actually, I think that
Speaker 2: was the one. He wasn't here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I don't think I heard that story.
Speaker 1: This for those that don't know it. I was just,
Speaker 1: you know, one of those same projects where I showed
Speaker 1: up and was taken on a white van and we
Speaker 1: drove for like two two and a half hours out
Speaker 1: into the desert. I was told it was to a
Speaker 1: town called mud Lake, but I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: where it really.
Speaker 8: Was or not.
Speaker 1: But basically, we shoveled goat shit out of the stalls
Speaker 1: for the animals, uh And it was a genetic laboratory
Speaker 1: for the government where they were doing uh cross genetics
Speaker 1: between goats and spiders, and they were mixing the spider
Speaker 1: silk in with the goat proteins and they could get
Speaker 1: it out of the wool or out of the milk,
Speaker 1: and they were making advanced kevlar and body armor and
Speaker 1: different proteins and using it. All kinds of weird stuff,
Speaker 1: but that's what they told me. And then after that project,
Speaker 1: when I was telling my dad, he was like, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a secret government facility out there. That's weird. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I was taken there as a kid for the church
Speaker 1: and the cub Scouts to do like child labor there.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't even know if they fed me lunch.
Speaker 7: It's like, yeah, it literally was like holes. Then it
Speaker 7: was a lotter, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Just shoveling out there. You know, it's always an adventure.
Speaker 1: We would be up in the mountains somewhere at some
Speaker 1: place like fixing fence or running chainsaws. I'd be like
Speaker 1: twelve years old. Half the time. I thought it was
Speaker 1: pretty cool. But looking back on it, I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure a lot of that was kind of illegal.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: You know something I do want to ask. It just
Speaker 4: popped it to my head down. Maybe I had an
Speaker 4: idea and I forgot what is like, why is like womanism?
Speaker 4: So I guess pushing or associated with the boy scout, Like, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I was always taught that it had to do
Speaker 1: with like preparedness and how to It was like an
Speaker 1: essential part of development. There's this underlying layer during the
Speaker 1: generation that I was brought up in, and it kind
Speaker 1: of evolves like when I if I talked about this, now,
Speaker 1: my brothers and people my age and stuff would all
Speaker 1: this would resonate with them. But now they don't talk
Speaker 1: the same way. But when I was growing up, there
Speaker 1: was really this idea that we were at the end
Speaker 1: of times, Like the real name of the church is
Speaker 1: the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and
Speaker 1: the ideas that we were in the latter days or
Speaker 1: the last days and the clock is ticking, and basically
Speaker 1: that means that there's going to be wars all over
Speaker 1: the world, big cataclysms, all kinds of disasters, and like
Speaker 1: basically Book of Revelations kind of stuff, as all those
Speaker 1: prophecies are going to come true, and a lot of
Speaker 1: it's going to happen in America, and a lot of
Speaker 1: it's going to involve the Church. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like how scientology has the Sea Org. You know, they
Speaker 1: have like this fake Navy that l Ron Hubbard, he's
Speaker 1: like a fan of the He was part of the Navy,
Speaker 1: and so he adopted all that stuff out of the Navy. Well,
Speaker 1: the Mormon Church they sort of took on the ritualistic
Speaker 1: and the occult side of freemasonry, but then also adopted
Speaker 1: kind of this militia and doomsday cult kind of mindset
Speaker 1: as they moved west as pioneers and as they settled
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake City, and then they started preparing for
Speaker 1: the end of the world. And so this idea of
Speaker 1: cub Scouts was like when I would go up to
Speaker 1: Scout camp or would go to Scout camp projects, we
Speaker 1: would pray at the beginning. It was all mixed in
Speaker 1: with the church at the same time. We did it
Speaker 1: as a church group and Scouts, and we would do
Speaker 1: Scouts at the church building all the time. It was
Speaker 1: all mixed together. But I had to do with this
Speaker 1: idea of like you're kind of like being raised as
Speaker 1: a soldier sort of like to prepare for the end
Speaker 1: of the world. So you had to be able to
Speaker 1: start a fire, shoot a gun like doomsday. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this idea is that, yeah, when the when the cataclysm happens,
Speaker 1: we might have to go live in the wilderness or
Speaker 1: like camp out in the mountains, apocalypse, whatever it is.
Speaker 7: That sounds like. A friend of mine was actually raised
Speaker 7: in a cult called the world Wide Church of God,
Speaker 7: and it sounds very similar. I think. Actually, I just
Speaker 7: looked it up really quick. The founder, Herbert Armstrong, browed
Speaker 7: many ideas from Mormonism, so that's interesting. It's very much
Speaker 7: like a doomsday prepper. What right the world was ending?
Speaker 7: What a friend of mine for.
Speaker 2: That guy on my show, Herbert Herbert Ormshaw. Oh shit,
Speaker 2: sorry that bugged out, No, that is bugged out. He know,
Speaker 2: we only dropped it maybe two months ago. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: guy had some This guy met with all these world leaders.
Speaker 4: It was there's something going on besides Jesus.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah guy, Yeah, and then it was like a cult.
Speaker 7: She grew up in that, and she was like, it's
Speaker 7: not a way to live, that's for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up with a version of that. And
Speaker 1: then there's even these like there's like these pocket groups
Speaker 1: that would form in communities and around certain figures too.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys are aware of Chad
Speaker 1: day Bell. Chad Daybell and Laurie Vallo basically They're a
Speaker 1: couple that were up in Rexburg, Idaho, which is where
Speaker 1: I lived, so I lived in group, was born in Rexburg,
Speaker 1: went to high school in Sugar City, and was all
Speaker 1: in the same kind of area right there. But basically,
Speaker 1: this guy, Chad Dabel, he was a Mormon guy and
Speaker 1: a bishop, and he became friends with a couple of
Speaker 1: people that had had near death experiences where they swear
Speaker 1: that they saw God and they saw Jesus and then
Speaker 1: they saw visions of the end of the world and
Speaker 1: they saw all these details of when it was going
Speaker 1: to happen, how it was going to involve the church
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake City, and how people were going to
Speaker 1: have to go flee out in the wilderness and all
Speaker 1: this stuff. And there was this book that got published
Speaker 1: called Visions of Glory that came out, and this anonymous
Speaker 1: publisher that had this or author that had this near
Speaker 1: death experience was claiming, you know that he's a Mormon
Speaker 1: guy in Salt Lake City and he saw the end
Speaker 1: of the world and all this stuff in that book.
Speaker 1: And around that book there was a couple of more books.
Speaker 1: A lady named Julie Rowe also had this near death
Speaker 1: experience or claims that she did. And she wrote like
Speaker 1: three books that said kind of the same stuff, like
Speaker 1: the end times, visions and things. But Chad Daybell, he
Speaker 1: was like this independent book publisher that latched onto this
Speaker 1: and started publishing these books. And so within Mormonism and
Speaker 1: even in Idaho, especially up in Rexburg where I was,
Speaker 1: I was still a member of the church back then,
Speaker 1: it was like a cult within the cult. So there
Speaker 1: was like people reading these books that weren't actually official
Speaker 1: church books, but they were kind of because they were
Speaker 1: written by members published by a bishop. And so there
Speaker 1: was people going to these meetings with Chad Daybel and
Speaker 1: Julie Rowe and these other people talking about their near
Speaker 1: death experiences. And it was all like in secret, and
Speaker 1: I had family members that were all sucked into this,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what is going on? But it
Speaker 1: all had to do with people wanting to know when
Speaker 1: the end of the world was going to happen, and
Speaker 1: who's going to be president? Is China going to invade
Speaker 1: from into Oregon? And there's because all this stuff is
Speaker 1: in these books, right, But at the end of the day, Uh,
Speaker 1: this guy Chad Dabell who's publishing these books ends up
Speaker 1: like the same story as always having like affairs on
Speaker 1: his wife. There's mysterious deaths, and then in the end
Speaker 1: him and his new wife there now in prison because
Speaker 1: they murdered their kids and burned them in a bonfire
Speaker 1: in the backyard. And then they flew to Hawaii and
Speaker 1: hiding because they thought that the end times were here,
Speaker 1: and then Jesus was on his way back and so
Speaker 1: it was time to fulfill the prophecies, and so they
Speaker 1: went out they literally murdered their kids and burned him
Speaker 1: in the backyard, and then they went on a trip
Speaker 1: to and got arrested like pool side in Hawaii. Wow,
Speaker 1: but that was all like this a weird cult within
Speaker 1: the church and within the like super bizarre.
Speaker 4: After they did that, what's that they're like sitting there
Speaker 4: at the beach shipping on drinks with umbrellas in it,
Speaker 4: after they did some shit like that.
Speaker 1: Literally the bodycam footage when the police officers show up
Speaker 1: to arrest them. They're in like Kawaii and Hawaii, and
Speaker 1: they're sitting at a resort by the pool and Lori
Speaker 1: Valo is laying there in her bikini and she has
Speaker 1: that book Visions of Glory sitting there next to her,
Speaker 1: open like she was reading that book and they're there
Speaker 1: in Kawaii because waiting for Jesus to come back and
Speaker 1: had just got done murdering three kids.
Speaker 7: Oh oh man, I think I might even seen something
Speaker 7: about it on Netflix.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think there's a whole documentary on there. There's
Speaker 1: a ton of news reports and stuff on YouTube. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Chad Dabell and Lori Valo and uh Julie Row and
Speaker 1: then this. Yeah, the book is called The Visions of
Speaker 1: Glory and the Time is now. But yeah, there was
Speaker 1: like a whole mini cult within the church that started
Speaker 1: that was all like literally excited like the end times,
Speaker 1: just when there's like the third Blood Moon and all
Speaker 1: this stuff, because it's like all this crap.
Speaker 7: This sounds so similar. There's a Catholic prophecy called the
Speaker 7: illumination of conscience and that sounds like super similar actually,
Speaker 7: because apparently when the illumination happens, that's when we're all
Speaker 7: see like the state of our soul as God sees it,
Speaker 7: and then we'll have this opportunity to like change if
Speaker 7: we need to change or whatever. And then apparently there'll
Speaker 7: be a time of like refuges so everyone needs to
Speaker 7: like whoever's a believer is going to like need to
Speaker 7: flee into the forest, and like there's people who have
Speaker 7: already started to prepare refuges for like massive amounts of people.
Speaker 7: I don't know, it's interesting, but yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like the same kind of pattern that goes clear
Speaker 1: back to like Moses in the Bible fleeing Egypt and cross.
Speaker 1: See there's like that mythology of happening to go survive.
Speaker 7: In the mountains exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the same pattern. Like they're just looking
Speaker 1: forward to that repeating. But then at the last time,
Speaker 1: when it's the real one and the final one, then
Speaker 1: everybody thinks that their church is going to be the winner.
Speaker 7: Yes, right, seems to be a common theme.
Speaker 2: On that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: But you got to do is check everybody's dates and
Speaker 4: go for one of a few of the years after
Speaker 4: the fact, because you can keep them a little bit longer.
Speaker 1: So far, nothing's happening, like like my my grandpa, he
Speaker 1: was prophesied and given blessings and told that he was
Speaker 1: going to be there and help build like the Temple
Speaker 1: and New Jerusalem, which is supposed to be in Missouri
Speaker 1: by the way in America. But he had all these
Speaker 1: blessings saying that he was supposed to be there and
Speaker 1: help build that temple, but like he died a long
Speaker 1: time ago, so then they just changed the story and say, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he'll be there as an angel, you know, he'll
Speaker 1: help as a spirit or something. Okay, so they just
Speaker 1: rationalize it and move on. Everybody does. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: growing up as a member, it was just different like that,
Speaker 1: you know, you just before the internet, there's no way
Speaker 1: to fact check, There's no way to look anything up.
Speaker 1: Like if you had any questions, there was like some
Speaker 1: maybe a few pamphlets and things going around, and maybe
Speaker 1: a couple of videos. But like when I was a
Speaker 1: missionary and went out when I was nineteen years old
Speaker 1: and went to Arkansas for two years. That was my
Speaker 1: first time ever even hearing anybody talk bad about the
Speaker 1: church or about the leaders of the church. And I
Speaker 1: was like nineteen, you know. But up until then, everybody
Speaker 1: that I knew loved the church. They were all members
Speaker 1: or my family, the whole community. It was like living
Speaker 1: on an island, you know, and had no idea. But
Speaker 1: then when I got to Arkansas, it was like immediate conflict.
Speaker 1: There was like actually people educated with the Bible and
Speaker 1: could counter claims and say no, this didn't happen, and
Speaker 1: point out things that I didn't know, and you know,
Speaker 1: tell me that Joseph Smith actually was a polygamist and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, he wasn't. And then you go
Speaker 1: look it up, You're like, oh, you know he was.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm a missionary and I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: So weird stuff like that happens to you like along
Speaker 1: the way. But yeah, once the Internet came out, it's
Speaker 1: like becomes a slow unraveling because then you can suddenly
Speaker 1: you can check with with archaeology, and you can check
Speaker 1: genetic histories, and you can look up other you could
Speaker 1: see the other side of the story and see the
Speaker 1: back of the tapestry, and then suddenly you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's this whole dark history that's way different than what
Speaker 1: I was taught, you know. But that took me a
Speaker 1: long time, like my whole my whole life. You would
Speaker 1: think that when you're in the middle of doing the
Speaker 1: Masonic rituals for the first time, that it would like
Speaker 1: occur to you that this is bs or like what
Speaker 1: am I doing here? This is crazy, and honestly, it
Speaker 1: does occur to I think everybody. Like the first time
Speaker 1: that I went through and was doing my initiation and
Speaker 1: endowment and all that stuff where you're changing into all
Speaker 1: the costumes and the robes and doing the hand signs
Speaker 1: and passwords and all that, Like the whole time I
Speaker 1: was thinking it was like a paradox inside me. I
Speaker 1: was like, on the one side, I was thinking, holy shit,
Speaker 1: this is freaking weird, Like this is so bizarre, Like
Speaker 1: what are we doing here? Like how why are we
Speaker 1: all dressed like this? Are we really? Is this really
Speaker 1: what it is? Like that was all going on. But
Speaker 1: on the other side, there was this whole life since
Speaker 1: I was a child growing up that was like baked
Speaker 1: into me and basically brainwashed to look forward to this
Speaker 1: moment like this was real, and I was taught like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just like the old Biblical temple. So I'm
Speaker 1: like my brain is just looking to make it make sense.
Speaker 1: So on the other side of it, I'm also like
Speaker 1: trying to tell myself, oh, it just feels like this
Speaker 1: because it's you had no idea like oh, this is
Speaker 1: what the church is really about. Wow, And I just
Speaker 1: tried to stay like curious and everything, and I actually
Speaker 1: became really obsessed with going to the temple and like
Speaker 1: memorizing all of it and like trying to learn all
Speaker 1: of the mysteries about it and dig into where it
Speaker 1: all came from. And ultimately that's a that's like a
Speaker 1: two edged sword, because like that's the problem that the
Speaker 1: church has, and that I think any any big organization
Speaker 1: or cult has, is that if you have a member
Speaker 1: like me who's really passionate about it and really loves
Speaker 1: it and really believes it and is actually having paranormal
Speaker 1: or and spiritual experiences in your life and so you're
Speaker 1: looking for answers like this is real, then what happens
Speaker 1: is you dig into it like a tick and you
Speaker 1: study it like really hard, and what happens is you
Speaker 1: end up finding out, like as a Mormon, like why
Speaker 1: are we doing all these handshakes? And where did these
Speaker 1: passwords comes? Where do they come from? Where does this
Speaker 1: originate from? And oh does it come from Solomon's Temple?
Speaker 1: Does it come from the Knight's templar? Like where does
Speaker 1: the roots come from? I want to study that too.
Speaker 1: So as you're digging to try and learn and to
Speaker 1: become more spiritually deepened through study and everything. You end
Speaker 1: up realizing, oh, well, a lot of it did come
Speaker 1: from Solomon, but it came from Solomon's books of demonology. Whoops,
Speaker 1: and you go, oh, it did come from this book
Speaker 1: in this book, but they came out of Freemasonry, and
Speaker 1: they originated in these rituals that involved this other stuff
Speaker 1: that I had no idea about. Oh, and so all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you're torn with like, while you're digging
Speaker 1: for spiritual truth to try and deepen your life and
Speaker 1: to get closer to God, you're realizing that what you're
Speaker 1: doing and what you're studying and where it came from,
Speaker 1: you've kind of been lied to about and it didn't
Speaker 1: come from where you thought it did. And maybe you
Speaker 1: got tricked and you're doing things you shouldn't be or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you're better off on your own like figuring it out,
Speaker 1: or like, all of a sudden, you're like, wait a second.
Speaker 1: The origins of the church, and a lot of these
Speaker 1: rituals have their roots in like Enochian magic from John
Speaker 1: Dee and Ed Kelly that were like basically eight hundred
Speaker 1: years before Joseph Smith, and they were doing the same stuff.
Speaker 1: But until the Internet, until you run into that stuff
Speaker 1: and study it out, you would never know, like you
Speaker 1: would have no idea. It's just like mysteries like you
Speaker 1: would read in the Bible or in the scriptures, you know,
Speaker 1: like miracles and weird mysteries about people, you know, Moses
Speaker 1: goes and talks to God and the burning bush and things,
Speaker 1: and so you don't really take you don't really question
Speaker 1: it until you're older and you can really uh speculate
Speaker 1: about things and stuff. So it took me like over
Speaker 1: thirty five thirty five to thirty eight years to really
Speaker 1: unravel all that stuff.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: What was it like when like.
Speaker 4: When you did so coming across that, I mean, did
Speaker 4: I hit you pretty hard at first?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think the biggest thing for me was when
Speaker 1: I was when I was on a mission in Arkansas
Speaker 1: at nineteen. That was the first time that like a
Speaker 1: like a minister, a preacher from another church, they would
Speaker 1: see us as like hostile entity, Like we're basically a
Speaker 1: foreign invader into their territory because their whole livelihood and
Speaker 1: everything is off of their congregation and coming to church
Speaker 1: and paying tithings. So now these Mormon missionaries are there
Speaker 1: knocking on all the doors, mowing people's lawns, doing community
Speaker 1: service and like saying come over here, come join our church,
Speaker 1: and trying to proselytize their community. So we're like trying
Speaker 1: to steal their customers, you know. So we would be
Speaker 1: out going door to door talking about the Book of Mormon,
Speaker 1: about Mormonism and stuff, and these preachers would just pull
Speaker 1: up in their vans or trucks or whatever and get
Speaker 1: out and just start yelling at us, you know, and
Speaker 1: they would just start dropping the SPACs. Oh yeah. They
Speaker 1: would be like, I condemn you in the name of
Speaker 1: the Lord, and they would put their arm in the
Speaker 1: sky and they would oh man, they would get right
Speaker 1: in our face and they would grab the Book of
Speaker 1: Mormon and pull it right out of our hands, throw
Speaker 1: it on the ground and stuff on it. Oh, it
Speaker 1: was just direction. You're not welcome here. I'm going to
Speaker 1: go around. And so they would go around to their
Speaker 1: congregation and then even hold meetings and educate their their congregation, like, hey,
Speaker 1: when the Mormon missionaries show up with their name tags, uh,
Speaker 1: this is what you tell them, you know, ask them
Speaker 1: about why the Book of Mormons says that people with
Speaker 1: black skin is a curse because they got black skin
Speaker 1: because of their they didn't follow the gospel back in
Speaker 1: the old days or whatever, and ask them about this,
Speaker 1: so they would they would give the members of the
Speaker 1: community all of this information about church history, about polygamy,
Speaker 1: about all these problems with the Book of Mormon and
Speaker 1: how and just things with the church that I had
Speaker 1: no idea existed growing up as a kid in the church.
Speaker 1: I had no preparation for whatsoever. So then all sudden,
Speaker 1: I'm out there and not only are these ministers and
Speaker 1: preachers throwing it in my face, but now everybody in
Speaker 1: the community's got pamphlets. They've watched these anti Mormon movies
Speaker 1: at church about us and all the stuff and about
Speaker 1: our doctrine and teachings and a lot of it. I'm
Speaker 1: like hearing this, like that's not true, and I'm just
Speaker 1: arguing back, like, no, that's totally lie. That's not true.
Speaker 1: That's not true because, like I said, there's really no
Speaker 1: internet back then, Like this was right right before when
Speaker 1: I came home from my mission, when I was like
Speaker 1: twenty one. That was when I got my first cell
Speaker 1: phone and it didn't even have internet. You just texted
Speaker 1: as well as old Nokia's you know. But when we
Speaker 1: finally got like internet and could look things up later,
Speaker 1: then it's like those things that I heard on my
Speaker 1: mission back then, that these preachers said and that I
Speaker 1: ran into in people's homes, Like they would just say
Speaker 1: this stuff to me, Like why would they promote John C.
Speaker 1: Bennett to first counselor of the church within one year
Speaker 1: when he was an abortion doctor and he lived with
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith right when he was doing polygamy? Were they
Speaker 1: doing abortions? And I was just like, what, I didn't
Speaker 1: even know Joseph Smith was doing polygamy? What is polygamy?
Speaker 1: Like I was so naive, you know. Like so then
Speaker 1: when I got home from my mission and married, you
Speaker 1: kind of go back in that bubble. I'm like back
Speaker 1: in Idaho and back in Utah. You just kind of
Speaker 1: push all that out of your mind. Like I'd been
Speaker 1: at war in Iraq or something. You know, I survived
Speaker 1: all this hostile fire. But then when you're sitting there
Speaker 1: at home at night, you know, that same thing that
Speaker 1: I would do. I would be wondering about the temple,
Speaker 1: about the secret handshakes. So I'd be wondering about the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon talks about all this ancient history, like
Speaker 1: these big cities where they would have these battles with
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand warriors and they would be on horses
Speaker 1: chariots with swords and armor, and I would be like,
Speaker 1: where did that happen? You know, there should be a
Speaker 1: chariot somewhere, there should be helmets or swords, there should
Speaker 1: be artifacts. So you start, as you get older all
Speaker 1: these things that I had run into since I was
Speaker 1: younger and on my mission. Eventually you're like home at
Speaker 1: night and you run into things on the internet or
Speaker 1: a YouTube video comes up or something like that, and
Speaker 1: pretty soon you're going down the rabbit hole, even though
Speaker 1: you might have good intentions. Pretty soon you're on a
Speaker 1: website that explains, oh, that's where the secret Temple handshakes
Speaker 1: come from. Oh that's why the Book of Mormon was
Speaker 1: this way, that's why this and that, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you realize, like wait a second, Like for me,
Speaker 1: I can remember exactly like where I was sitting in
Speaker 1: the moment and when it actually occurred to me that
Speaker 1: the only way that any of this stuff makes sense
Speaker 1: with the Book of Mormon and the church history. The
Speaker 1: only way that any of it makes any sense at
Speaker 1: all is if it's all made up, if it's literally
Speaker 1: all a lie or fake. And as soon as that
Speaker 1: occurred to me, it was like I allowed myself to
Speaker 1: consider that as a possibility for the first time, and
Speaker 1: it was like literally like coming out of a hypnosis.
Speaker 1: It was. It was so strange. It was so strange.
Speaker 1: It was like finally getting the getting the punchline to
Speaker 1: a joke that I hadn't gotten for over thirty years
Speaker 1: or something. It was like, wow, it was like this
Speaker 1: huge realization that there's no way, this is the only
Speaker 1: way any of this makes sense is if it's all fake,
Speaker 1: if it's fictional like Chronicles of Narnia or some fake shit.
Speaker 1: You know, like that's the only way and you know, the.
Speaker 2: Way to make sense of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then it was like devastating. Then it was
Speaker 1: like heartbreaking because suddenly all these characters and the scriptures
Speaker 1: in the Book of Mormon, everybody who they were all
Speaker 1: my heroes, These were all characters that did these amazing
Speaker 1: things that were like examples to me since I was
Speaker 1: a child, you know, And now all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, they're just they're not even real.
Speaker 1: They're literally just imaginary people that like Joseph Smith made
Speaker 1: up like a comic book. And that was like devastating,
Speaker 1: Like all of my role models and heroes since I
Speaker 1: was a kid, and like I realized were totally fictional,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So, I mean all of
Speaker 1: that like was a big unraveling. And then and then
Speaker 1: you go through all those levels of like, well what
Speaker 1: is real? Then, you know what I mean, Yeah.
Speaker 7: This starts a whole questioning. It's insane, yeah, and unravels.
Speaker 7: I had a similar experience like when I sort of
Speaker 7: start speaking out more online in like twenty twenty, and
Speaker 7: then a lot of like because I'm a raceed Catholic, right,
Speaker 7: so a lot of like Christians would come at me
Speaker 7: with like, oh, well why did the Catholic syst and
Speaker 7: why did that? And it was like for the first time,
Speaker 7: I was like whoa, Like I never received this sort
Speaker 7: of like how the preachers would come at you and
Speaker 7: be like get out of here. I'd be like, ah,
Speaker 7: like it just I never had that experience in like
Speaker 7: real life to that extent before. So it was pretty wild.
Speaker 7: And yeah, it makes you start to look at everything differently, right, get.
Speaker 1: Very defensive and like that's the thing that makes it
Speaker 1: so difficult as that. And I remember being this way
Speaker 1: as a member, when I was like an ingrained believer
Speaker 1: in the church and everything is that like when when
Speaker 1: I try to bring up things about the founder of
Speaker 1: the church, Joseph Smith, and be like have you ever
Speaker 1: thought about like why he married a fourteen year old girl?
Speaker 1: And like what is the whole deal with child brides anyways?
Speaker 1: Like and and all that. If you bring it up,
Speaker 1: even if it's just like a fair question or a
Speaker 1: logical thought to consider, they immediately jump to a response
Speaker 1: like you're offending Jesus, Like you're literally hurting the Lord
Speaker 1: because that's his prophet. And this is where you're not
Speaker 1: supposed to question it, you know. It's like touching. It's
Speaker 1: like it's like going into something that you're not even
Speaker 1: supposed to mention, you know, And so you're offending them,
Speaker 1: and you're offending the Spirit, and you're you're offending God
Speaker 1: just by bringing it up. And that's so built into
Speaker 1: you as a member of the church that even internally,
Speaker 1: like when you're sitting there alone by yourself and you
Speaker 1: start to have questions or a doubt pops in your mind.
Speaker 1: You even have protocol trained into you where you where
Speaker 1: you literally push that negative thought or that doubt away.
Speaker 1: There's these mantras like doubt your doubts that you're taught
Speaker 1: to repeat to yourself.
Speaker 7: Doubt your doubts, you know, out your doubts.
Speaker 1: That's literally one of the things that the prophet taught
Speaker 1: doubt your doubts.
Speaker 7: You know, it's lighting.
Speaker 1: And then you would say prayers and reconnect with the
Speaker 1: spirit again and immediately go back to reading the scripture.
Speaker 1: So it's basically like anti virus software kicks in within
Speaker 1: you and pushes you back into the church. And then
Speaker 1: you feel bad that you even doubted, like like you're guilty,
Speaker 1: like you yeah, even yourself within the loune, in the
Speaker 1: in the boundaries you know, all the time. And then
Speaker 1: as a father, you know, you do that within your household,
Speaker 1: you know, and as a couple, and so you're like
Speaker 1: taking your kids to church, teaching them to pray, getting
Speaker 1: them ready, and your whole family and everybody's watching you.
Speaker 1: But yeah, when all that comes unraveling on you, that's
Speaker 1: the big challenges because like as soon as you realize
Speaker 1: it's not true, like the Book of Mormon isn't real,
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith is a calm man. All this stuff comes unraveling.
Speaker 1: Then you're in the middle of this giant labyrinth that
Speaker 1: you've been running around your whole life like a rat
Speaker 1: in a maze, and you realize, I cannot get out
Speaker 1: of this without literally every friend that I have all
Speaker 1: the way back since my childhood, all the way through
Speaker 1: high school, my entire family, my wife, my kids, my
Speaker 1: in laws, everybody, and you're literally looking at your entire
Speaker 1: life that if you leave the church, they're all going
Speaker 1: to know, they're all going to look at you like great. Now,
Speaker 1: when Doomsday happens, when Jesus comes back and we're supposed
Speaker 1: to go in the wilderness to survive, you're not going
Speaker 1: to be there, you know. And then in the spirit
Speaker 1: world when we die in the afterlife, like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be in heaven with them anymore, neither are
Speaker 1: my kids, and so they're like all devastated, you know.
Speaker 1: So there's a huge amount of pressure around that. Like
Speaker 1: when when we actually decided we were going to leave
Speaker 1: the church, I even had a sister in law call
Speaker 1: me on the phone, and she was weeping and crying,
Speaker 1: and she was saying, how like when we're supposed to
Speaker 1: go into the wilderness to survive, where are you going
Speaker 1: to be? You're not going to be there? Where's your
Speaker 1: kids going to be? And she was like crying to
Speaker 1: me on the phone. And that was all because they
Speaker 1: were reading those books that Chad dave Bell wrote, that
Speaker 1: guy that murdered his kids in the backyard. They were
Speaker 1: all those doomsday books. Like her and my brother and everybody,
Speaker 1: they were all reading those books when they were saying that.
Speaker 1: And that's part of why I got out of the
Speaker 1: church too, was like this is too too wild, Like
Speaker 1: this is crazy, you know. But yeah, there was there's
Speaker 1: all that family pressure and we had to move. Like
Speaker 1: we were living in Idaho in a town called Pocatello,
Speaker 1: and I was in a leadership position at the church
Speaker 1: at the time, in the high priest group leadership. And
Speaker 1: then it literally occurred to me that the church wasn't true.
Speaker 1: And I talked to my wife about it and she
Speaker 1: kind of realized that too. We talked about it for
Speaker 1: like three months and we realized, like we have to move,
Speaker 1: we have to move out of the state and then
Speaker 1: leave the church, because if we leave the church now,
Speaker 1: like every day somebody's going to come over and drive
Speaker 1: us space, Like we're never going to get away from it.
Speaker 7: So to be on the on the receiving end of
Speaker 7: the Mormon missionaries, you're like, no, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Even when we did move and we got out of
Speaker 1: the church. After we moved down to southern Utah, even
Speaker 1: the local church members, like within within two weeks they
Speaker 1: sent like eight different group star house. There was like
Speaker 1: a group of kids came over, the young women's came over,
Speaker 1: Home teachers came over, the elder scorn came over. There
Speaker 1: was multiple different groups from the church and and couples
Speaker 1: and things like that that came over and tried to
Speaker 1: talk to my wife and my kids when I wasn't
Speaker 1: home and everything to try and get us to go back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had to. We had to use lawyers, an organization
Speaker 1: out of Salt Lake City called quit lds dot org,
Speaker 1: and they actually filed paperwork with the church that made
Speaker 1: it stop where it said if anybody from the church
Speaker 1: comes and tries to talk to me or my family
Speaker 1: or my kids, that it would be considered religious harassment
Speaker 1: because they literally wouldn't leave us alone.
Speaker 7: Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 5: Yeh see see I grew up Jehovah's Witness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's kind of the opposite would happen. I
Speaker 3: feel like they would if you, if you decided to
Speaker 3: leave we're back at It's kind of a similar thing,
Speaker 3: but instead of them hounding you in the entire family
Speaker 3: and people showing up, every single person you've known your entire.
Speaker 5: Life just completely cuts contact from you and they don't
Speaker 5: talk to you at all, just shunned.
Speaker 7: Like scientology does that, I think.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's like the same thing that's wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a mix of that. So the family kind
Speaker 1: of all does that. So it's really tricky. So like
Speaker 1: all of my nephews, most of my family, a lot
Speaker 1: of my cousins and siblings, my sister in laws and stuff.
Speaker 1: Basically they all just unfollowed me and blocked me online
Speaker 1: because they're afraid that I'm going to post something about
Speaker 1: the church, that I'm going to post a video or
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm doing an interview right now with
Speaker 1: you guys. This is going to get clipped or could
Speaker 1: get made into an Instagram reel and I might share it,
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna hear it. So now my brother,
Speaker 1: his wife and his kids that go all the way
Speaker 1: down to like thirteen years old are going to see
Speaker 1: Carl talking bad about the Temple and about the Mormon
Speaker 1: Church and about and they all still believe it, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's safer and easier for them to just do that,
Speaker 1: to cut me off, to shun me, to not follow
Speaker 1: me online, and they'll invite me to things and stuff.
Speaker 1: But I can tell, like when I show up to
Speaker 1: family events, it's like like they all have to edit
Speaker 1: themselves around me, like their normal way of talking, how
Speaker 1: they would how they would gather to pray around dinner
Speaker 1: and everything. There's everybody's glancing at me like am I
Speaker 1: going to say something or cause a scene, you know,
Speaker 1: Like it's just like a weird aura because I've left
Speaker 1: the church now, so I'm not one of them, you know,
Speaker 1: on the house. But now all these things have happened,
Speaker 1: where like they were, they swore that the end times
Speaker 1: were going to happen. They swore Jesus was going to
Speaker 1: come back, the New Jerusalem was going to be built,
Speaker 1: the prophecies, the moons, all this stuff written in the books,
Speaker 1: and now not only has none of that come true.
Speaker 1: But chat Dabell and his wife are in prison, and
Speaker 1: like all these other things have happened, and the Internet
Speaker 1: just keeps chugging along showing like you can get on
Speaker 1: chat GPT and you can say is there evidence of
Speaker 1: plagiarism in the Book of Mormon, and chat GPT within
Speaker 1: like five seconds will say, yes, there is in this chapter,
Speaker 1: in this chapter, in this chapter, da da da da
Speaker 1: da da da, And it will literally explain to you
Speaker 1: where there's like flat out evidence of plagiarism and scamming
Speaker 1: in the Mormon scriptures and stuff. And so there's no
Speaker 1: excuse except for putting the blinders on, like just like
Speaker 1: I'm just going to believe and just continue to have
Speaker 1: my faith, you know. Yeah, you have to want to believe,
Speaker 1: you know. And in the end that's going to create
Speaker 1: like a really really passionate Orthodox core that's going to
Speaker 1: cling on to it like a barnacle to the end,
Speaker 1: you know, and there they'll always be there. That's just
Speaker 1: like why there's still polygamous uh in Utah and stuff
Speaker 1: that are still practicing polygamy knowing that it's illegal, they'll
Speaker 1: just cling on to those beliefs like like it has
Speaker 1: to be true, like they're hanging on to a rope.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 7: It's so interesting that you never it never occurred to
Speaker 7: you till you like stepped outside of your bubble, right,
Speaker 7: you know, like when you started doing the missionary work
Speaker 7: and whatnot, and like that's the first time you really
Speaker 7: encountered like any opposition. And then like but when you
Speaker 7: were in your group and doing the rituals and whatever,
Speaker 7: you had that sense of like something is a miss,
Speaker 7: but you shoved it down right, And I think it
Speaker 7: just like that reminds me of like the whole you know,
Speaker 7: twenty twenty experience that we all had. It's like a
Speaker 7: lot of us knew something was a miss, but then
Speaker 7: like just stade quiet because it's like you're looking at
Speaker 7: everyone around you, and every one around you is doing it,
Speaker 7: so you're like, I guess it's okay then, right, or
Speaker 7: I don't want to be the one to like poke
Speaker 7: my head up. Like it takes a lot of courage
Speaker 7: to do what you did and basically blow up your
Speaker 7: whole life because you realize the truth and you understanding
Speaker 7: your truth right, it.
Speaker 1: Really can be devastating and very very terrifying, and you
Speaker 1: have to be someone like like I was always one
Speaker 1: of those kids that was like I would I wanted justice,
Speaker 1: you know, like if somebody stole something from me, like
Speaker 1: in school as a kid, I wanted to track it
Speaker 1: down and make it right. You know, if somebody lied
Speaker 1: to me, I want them to go confront him. And
Speaker 1: I was kind of like one of those types of
Speaker 1: kids and stuff, and so you know, it was it
Speaker 1: goes two ways. Yeah, Like I think traveling and getting
Speaker 1: out and opening up yourself to the world, you are
Speaker 1: exposed to things that suddenly you realize the punchline to
Speaker 1: the joke, or you hear this thing about church history
Speaker 1: that you can't unhear, and then it will just sit
Speaker 1: and eat at you. It's just like a thorn. You know.
Speaker 1: They call it like breaking your shelf. It's like you
Speaker 1: learn a thing, and it's like you pick up that
Speaker 1: book that you just learned that thing, and you put
Speaker 1: it on the shelf. How many things can you hear
Speaker 1: about the church that you realize are bad until your
Speaker 1: shelf actually caves in and breaks and you realize that
Speaker 1: it's not good. But the problem is is that your
Speaker 1: whole life until that moment happens, you're taught and programmed,
Speaker 1: and the cycle is that you're the problem. You're the
Speaker 1: one that's the odd one out. You're the common denominator. Like,
Speaker 1: look at everyone else in your family is doing fine,
Speaker 1: all your friends, the whole community has no problem with
Speaker 1: any of this. And now here I am. I haven't
Speaker 1: gone to church in three months, and everyone knows. They
Speaker 1: know I'm not there. You know, they literally take roll
Speaker 1: every Sunday and they know on not there, they're going
Speaker 1: to start sending my friends over to invite me back,
Speaker 1: you know. And so you just always have this built
Speaker 1: in pressure that like as soon as you start feeling
Speaker 1: like I don't like this. Like, for example, growing up,
Speaker 1: one of the things was the church started being really
Speaker 1: big on when you're a deacon, you're basically like twelve
Speaker 1: years old, and that's when you start passing the communion
Speaker 1: or the sacrament. So the bread and the water gets blessed,
Speaker 1: and Catholic churches bread and wine, right, and we do
Speaker 1: bread and water and Mormon church because they don't drink alcohol,
Speaker 1: so it's like bread and water. It's literally just like
Speaker 1: a loaf of bread, wonder bread from the store that
Speaker 1: they wow. Yeah, but they do like a whole prayer
Speaker 1: that they recite and they read it off of a card,
Speaker 1: and then the deacons get up and pass the sacrament around,
Speaker 1: so you carry the trays of the bread and then
Speaker 1: the water around when and you're like a little kid,
Speaker 1: and they started instituting this thing like you can't pass
Speaker 1: the sacrament as a deacon unless you have a white
Speaker 1: shirt on. And so it was like a whole thing
Speaker 1: because my family was like poor. I literally went to
Speaker 1: church for several Sundays and all I had was like
Speaker 1: a denim shirt exactly like I'm wearing now that I
Speaker 1: wore a church And because of that, literally, because of
Speaker 1: the color of my shirt, I couldn't pass the sacrament.
Speaker 1: So I was like unworthy and couldn't participate in the
Speaker 1: ordinance and pass the sacrament even if I wanted to,
Speaker 1: literally because of the color of my shirt. And that
Speaker 1: was like the first thing as a kid where I
Speaker 1: started thinking, like when my mom finally got me a
Speaker 1: white shirt so that I could do it, I thought,
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, if I had a closet that
Speaker 1: was full of shirts and at one end was perfectly
Speaker 1: white and at the other end was like a black shirt,
Speaker 1: and every Sunday, I just went one shade grayer all
Speaker 1: the way, Like, at what point would they say that
Speaker 1: I wasn't worthy anymore? Like what shade of color do
Speaker 1: I have to be where I can't participate? And I
Speaker 1: had all those kinds of experiences where I realized I
Speaker 1: didn't fit in or like the church wasn't working for me.
Speaker 1: But I always felt like I was the problem, Like
Speaker 1: I was the stubborn one. Why can't everybody else is
Speaker 1: fine just putting on a white shirt? Why do I
Speaker 1: have to be this little pill? You know that like
Speaker 1: is stubborn and causes a problem and goes to church
Speaker 1: on purpose with a DMIM shirt on, like as a protest.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: I was like that kid, Like I would go like
Speaker 1: and they would say who wants to pass the sacrament?
Speaker 1: And I would raise my hand, knowing I'm wearing the
Speaker 1: wrong color shirt and to make them tell me I
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, you know, Like, And I was kind
Speaker 1: of like that as a kid. So it makes sense
Speaker 1: that ultimately I would get out of the church and
Speaker 1: other people wouldn't because I was kind of always a
Speaker 1: little bit stubborn that way. Even for me, it was
Speaker 1: it was super hard, and it did cost me everything.
Speaker 1: When we finally left the church and got out of it,
Speaker 1: you look back through your life and you realize, like
Speaker 1: the whole reason, like we felt like we were supposed
Speaker 1: to get married because we prayed about it in the temple,
Speaker 1: you know, So if that's not real, what do we
Speaker 1: even what do we even know? What even is real anymore?
Speaker 1: And so like it can cost you your marriage, it
Speaker 1: can cost you your family, can you can go through
Speaker 1: a lot, you know, And then you're also left, like
Speaker 1: if you've had strange experiences in your life, or or
Speaker 1: spiritual experiences or paranormal encounters, you're left wondering, well, what
Speaker 1: about all that? You know, because you used to explain
Speaker 1: it all through the church and through the scriptures of
Speaker 1: what's going on now? And so that's kind of why
Speaker 1: I'm doing what I do now, looking into UFOs and
Speaker 1: paranormal stuff like that, because even though I'm not a
Speaker 1: member of the church, I still look back at my
Speaker 1: life growing up as a kid in the church and
Speaker 1: even on my mission and stuff, and I have to
Speaker 1: wonder about a lot of the things that happened that
Speaker 1: I thought were miracles or that I thought was literally
Speaker 1: like a psychic experience where I was given an answer
Speaker 1: to a prayer and so is someone else and we
Speaker 1: both got the same answer. And so I'm like still
Speaker 1: super curious about, like, well what happened there, because something
Speaker 1: actually did happen, But if it had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with being a Mormon, then what was it? You know?
Speaker 1: And can I still do it? You know, even though
Speaker 1: I'm not a member? Can I can it still work?
Speaker 1: You know? So all that stuff is really interesting to
Speaker 1: go through, so good questions.
Speaker 6: I totally have had the same experience kind of like
Speaker 6: where we're at one point. You know, I'm not a
Speaker 6: Jehovah's witness, but those beliefs are still pretty ingrained in
Speaker 6: my head where I'm using just their prayers, just their Bible,
Speaker 6: but I've had what seemed like prayers answered in that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like yeah, Like when I was a missionary, for example,
Speaker 1: You're like you're swimming in religion and in the Church
Speaker 1: and Mormonism and the scriptures all day. Like from the
Speaker 1: second that you wake up, you literally roll out of
Speaker 1: your bread, your bed, and you get on your knees
Speaker 1: and say your morning prayer and then you go in
Speaker 1: with your mission companion the other guy that you're living with.
Speaker 1: You pray together, then you study the scriptures together, you
Speaker 1: study alone, and then you practice your missionary just like
Speaker 1: your whole day is literally just swimming in the church.
Speaker 1: And so we used to, like, you know, we would
Speaker 1: get put two of us in this apartment in this
Speaker 1: small town, and there would be this like area that
Speaker 1: we're supposed to cover, that we're responsible for, and it's
Speaker 1: literally our job just to go out and talk to people,
Speaker 1: find people who are members of the church and have left,
Speaker 1: and then just go knock doors and try to recruit
Speaker 1: people and do service projects. And then like every Friday
Speaker 1: night they call and you have to tell them how
Speaker 1: many people you talk to, how many copies of the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon you gave out, all that stuff. So
Speaker 1: it's like you're just swimming in out all the time.
Speaker 1: And we would get in this community and you would
Speaker 1: be like nothing's going on. Like we're literally walking around
Speaker 1: like Walmart or the Kroger, and we're trying to talk
Speaker 1: to strangers at the fishing section about things and nobody
Speaker 1: is talking to us. Like knocking on doors and they
Speaker 1: just open the door and slam the door in our face,
Speaker 1: Like we're going to have to on Fridays coming they're
Speaker 1: gonna call us and we're gonna have zeros, Like we
Speaker 1: haven't given out anything, you know. So you get desperate.
Speaker 1: So you have one or two choices. You either as
Speaker 1: a missionary, you either lie when that phone rings and
Speaker 1: you say, oh, yeah, we gave out three copies of
Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon and we talked to ten people.
Speaker 1: We talk and you make up numbers even though you
Speaker 1: talk to nobody, or you get desperate with your faith
Speaker 1: and you start praying for miracles like hardcore and you
Speaker 1: put it to the test, like God, we're gonna you
Speaker 1: need to send us people like and so that's what
Speaker 1: we did this one time in Jacksonville. And it's funny
Speaker 1: looking back on it now because it was one hundred
Speaker 1: percent like a remote viewing that we did. It was
Speaker 1: a straight up Stanford Research Institute remote viewing protocol that
Speaker 1: we did. But we were just literally like trying to
Speaker 1: figure out who who in this town needs us as
Speaker 1: missionaries to come and talk to them today. And what
Speaker 1: we did was we got a we got a map
Speaker 1: of the town out and we laid it on the
Speaker 1: kitchen table in the apartment and then what we did
Speaker 1: was I went in the bedroom and I closed the door,
Speaker 1: so I was by myself, and then I left my
Speaker 1: mission companion out there with the map. And what we
Speaker 1: did was I prayed for him to receive inspiration from
Speaker 1: God as to where we were supposed to go, exactly
Speaker 1: on the map, where are we supposed to go today?
Speaker 1: And then when he felt like he got an answer,
Speaker 1: he was supposed to write it down and then fold
Speaker 1: it up and hide it in his pocket, and then
Speaker 1: when he was done, he would come knock on the door,
Speaker 1: and then we would trade and he would pray for me. Well,
Speaker 1: I looked at the map, so that's what we did,
Speaker 1: and so I went in and prayed for him, and
Speaker 1: pretty soon he came and knocked on the door. We traded,
Speaker 1: and then I looked at the map and I sat
Speaker 1: there while he was in there praying for me. And
Speaker 1: immediately in my mind it was like the name Cherry
Speaker 1: Street came to me, like Cherry Street immediately. It was
Speaker 1: like I saw it immediately. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: So I wrote it down on my piece of paper
Speaker 1: and then it was like nothing, like I got no
Speaker 1: other names. I just sat there. It was like nothing
Speaker 1: felt right, So I felt weird and I just sat
Speaker 1: there for a minute, looked at a couple of others.
Speaker 1: So I wrote like two more down on the piece
Speaker 1: of paper, and I thought, well, that didn't work, you know,
Speaker 1: So I went and knocked on the door. Got my
Speaker 1: mission companion. He came out and I said, well, I
Speaker 1: don't know if this worked or not. So we pulled
Speaker 1: out our pieces of paper and he says, well, I
Speaker 1: don't think it worked because I only wrote down one
Speaker 1: and he unfolds this piece of paper and it says
Speaker 1: Cherry Street, like out of the whole city, out of
Speaker 1: all of Jacksonville, Arkansas. We both at the top of
Speaker 1: the list both wrote down Cherry Street. So we were like, hey,
Speaker 1: there's the answer God told us, you know. So we
Speaker 1: like finished getting ready and everything, we like got on
Speaker 1: our on our bikes and we rode across town and
Speaker 1: we went to Cherry Street. We like hooked up our bikes,
Speaker 1: and this is where it got weird because like when
Speaker 1: we got to Cherry Street, we normally what we would
Speaker 1: do was knock on every single door. So we'd knock
Speaker 1: on every door down one side of the street and
Speaker 1: then cross the street and knock on all the doors
Speaker 1: all the way back, and then we're back where we
Speaker 1: parked our bikes and so, but this time we parked
Speaker 1: our bikes and for some reason, we just like walked
Speaker 1: past like the first three or four houses and didn't
Speaker 1: even go up to him. We're just like walking like,
Speaker 1: that's not it, that's not it, and we weren't really
Speaker 1: questioning it. And then all of a sudden, there's a
Speaker 1: truck in this driveway that has Idaho license plates on it,
Speaker 1: which is like where I'm from. I'm like, no way, Idaho,
Speaker 1: I'm like and I literally just said, hey, this is it.
Speaker 1: So we went up to the door and knocked, and
Speaker 1: this lady she opens the door and immediately sees us
Speaker 1: and just starts bawling. She just starts crying, and she goes,
Speaker 1: how did you know? How did you know? And we
Speaker 1: were like, what's going on? She just starts crying, and
Speaker 1: we're like, well, hey, I'm a missionary from Idaho and
Speaker 1: we saw your truck out here with Idaho plates and
Speaker 1: we were just like praying to God who needed our
Speaker 1: help today and we were supposed to come and talk
Speaker 1: to you, and so she lets us in, tells us
Speaker 1: she goes, oh, yeah, my husband was a Mormon, never
Speaker 1: went to church or anything. But just like a week ago,
Speaker 1: he drowned in a boating accident and she was there
Speaker 1: by herself trying to pack up all of her stuff
Speaker 1: to try and move out of her house and had
Speaker 1: no help. And she said that it was like she
Speaker 1: prayed for someone to come help her, and right when
Speaker 1: she prayed, we knocked on the door.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 1: I don't know how so to me as a missionary,
Speaker 1: I'm like, church is true, Like this is real. That
Speaker 1: was a real miracle, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 1: I mean since then, even not as a member of
Speaker 1: the church, out of the church, being an ex Mormon,
Speaker 1: I've had just as many amazing telepathic and spiritual experiences
Speaker 1: like that since where I've known I was supposed to
Speaker 1: go help somebody, and I've called them or gone and
Speaker 1: helped them, same kind of thing. But as a missionary,
Speaker 1: when I was like nineteen twenty years old, that was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, this is real, this is real, Like we
Speaker 1: knew right where to go. First story knocked on. She
Speaker 1: was literally praying for someone to come help her. And
Speaker 1: it was even crazier because where she was moving to
Speaker 1: she packed up all of her stuff to go back
Speaker 1: and move back with her family, and where she was
Speaker 1: moving to was in back to North Carolina, which was
Speaker 1: where my brother was on his mission. So I was
Speaker 1: actually able to get permission to call my brother. So
Speaker 1: I helped her pack her stuff up and helped her move,
Speaker 1: and then she ended up getting help unpacking and moving
Speaker 1: into her house with my brother in North Carolina. Like,
Speaker 1: the odds of it were just crazy to me, like
Speaker 1: how that all happened, But we definitely like we connected
Speaker 1: to something like to her, to me, the map, the
Speaker 1: the intentions to try and help someone that needed help
Speaker 1: that day, there was really something magical to that. I
Speaker 1: don't think it had anything necessarily to do with being
Speaker 1: a missionary or a member of the church, but it
Speaker 1: definitely put us in our consciousness in that right formula
Speaker 1: to where it happened, you know, where that that really
Speaker 1: took place. Yeah, that was one of those cool ones,
Speaker 1: very cool.
Speaker 7: That's bugged out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a wild story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people, you know, you have experiences
Speaker 1: like that as a member of the church, and you
Speaker 1: never leave you know, you never ever question your your
Speaker 1: belief in the church, Like and you hang on to
Speaker 1: those experiences, like you come back from your mission and
Speaker 1: you hear different things about the church, but then you
Speaker 1: hang on to that like I can't explain those things
Speaker 1: that happened to me and stuff, and those are kind
Speaker 1: of what keep you in. But the whole trick is,
Speaker 1: like I said, even after you get out of the
Speaker 1: church and you leave it, you realize you can do
Speaker 1: the same thing. Like I'll I'm not religious and don't
Speaker 1: go to church at all, but like on Sunday or whatever,
Speaker 1: just like you would go to church, I might sit
Speaker 1: here and do a meditation at home where I just
Speaker 1: go clear and I meditate and I'm very present and
Speaker 1: connect with the universe. And then I might feel like
Speaker 1: I want to go hike and look for petroglyphs and
Speaker 1: have a whole spiritual experience exactly the same way, you know,
Speaker 1: just like when I was a member of the church,
Speaker 1: and you kind of realize really quick that belonging to
Speaker 1: the organization had nothing to do with those spiritual experiences.
Speaker 1: It just happened to be the case that you were
Speaker 1: a member of the organization when it happened, you know.
Speaker 1: But if you're a good person and you're still trying
Speaker 1: to do that stuff. Like if I sat here right
Speaker 1: now and really focused my consciousness, like who in my
Speaker 1: neighborhood needs help right now? And I went outside and
Speaker 1: started walking around following my intuition, I guarantee you i'd
Speaker 1: find somebody. You know, you'd run into somebody that was
Speaker 1: looking for help, like and uh, I think the church
Speaker 1: just kind of church is just kind of like they
Speaker 1: know that, and so good people, good people get the
Speaker 1: confirmation they're looking for in those in those moments.
Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly. I think that's such a good point that
Speaker 7: you raise, Carl, because it's like, you know, are is
Speaker 7: it the church, is it the religion, the organization, or
Speaker 7: is it just like spiritually inclined people, because I can
Speaker 7: think of lots of people I know they go to
Speaker 7: church that are not spiritually inclined whatsoever, you know exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, they tell you that it's like your access
Speaker 1: to the church. In Mormonism, they you know, it's clearly
Speaker 1: they teach you that it's your ability to work in
Speaker 1: the priesthood so as a man, like when you're first
Speaker 1: a deacon at twelve years old and you start to
Speaker 1: pass the bread and the water, they give you what
Speaker 1: they call the ironic priestood, like the initial basic beginner priestoo,
Speaker 1: and that's like your authority to participate in the ordinances
Speaker 1: of the church or the rituals and actually conduct them,
Speaker 1: or to say the prayers and to be an officiator
Speaker 1: in those rituals. So you start off in these lower
Speaker 1: level priesthood authorities and then ultimately as you go up
Speaker 1: through the priesthood, you're also the jobs that you get
Speaker 1: in the church they call them callings or like the
Speaker 1: jobs that they ask you to do, get higher and
Speaker 1: higher up and more important, you know. But basically you're
Speaker 1: afraid that if you're not like reading the scriptures, if
Speaker 1: you're not faithful, if you're not going to church every
Speaker 1: Sunday and going to the meetings doing what you're supposed to,
Speaker 1: that your connection to that priestood authority separates, like you're
Speaker 1: falling away and you're pulling away, just like your contact
Speaker 1: and closeness to the power of God is slipping through
Speaker 1: your fingers. So it's like you literally are supposed to
Speaker 1: get up in the morning and you put the garments on,
Speaker 1: like the underwear that you get in the temple, and
Speaker 1: you do your n downment. So every day and all
Speaker 1: day and all night. While you're sleeping, you're wearing the
Speaker 1: garments that have the symbols, the Masonic symbols, and you're
Speaker 1: saying your prayers, and even when you're at your job
Speaker 1: all day, in the back of your mind, you know
Speaker 1: that like you're a member of the church, that you
Speaker 1: have the priesthood, that you have the power of the
Speaker 1: Holy ghosts and all that. So, like if you go
Speaker 1: home at night and you watch some rated movie or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you fall into sin, or you do something wrong,
Speaker 1: or drink alcohol or even drink coffee or whatever, even
Speaker 1: think a bad thought in your head, and basically it's
Speaker 1: like you're sinning and you become dirty, and you lose
Speaker 1: that connection to God and you lose your priests. So
Speaker 1: the church teaches you that the only way to keep
Speaker 1: that is by going back, Like you've got to go
Speaker 1: back and take the sacrament. You got to go back
Speaker 1: and confess your sins of the bishop, and you've got
Speaker 1: to keep attending and going to the meetings, and you
Speaker 1: got to stay on the hampster your wheel. Otherwise you're
Speaker 1: just going to fall away and become filthy and become
Speaker 1: part of the world. You know, and so that's what
Speaker 1: my family thinks I did, Like I left the church.
Speaker 1: I've got tattoos, I do meditation, I'm interested in aliens.
Speaker 1: So like, I'm like this heathen that's falling away from
Speaker 1: the church and what they call an apostate. You know,
Speaker 1: I have apostasized.
Speaker 7: This rhetoric sounds familiar.
Speaker 5: You really state you.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm an ex Mormon, anti Mormon apostasys. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: the fact that I go on podcasts and I talk
Speaker 1: about it and I tell my story makes me an
Speaker 1: actual anti Mormon. So they would say I am a
Speaker 1: part of the Antichrist movement. So I'm literally like I
Speaker 1: can't say it. I'm like an enemy to the Lord. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I get around my family and they all hug
Speaker 1: me in this smile and we're family and they hope
Speaker 1: that like someday God works it all out and will
Speaker 1: all be together in heaven or whatever. But yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: like a falling away guy. And the fact that I'm
Speaker 1: like divorced or any if anything goes wrong in my
Speaker 1: in my life, everybody that knows me looks at that
Speaker 1: like confirmation, Like ah see.
Speaker 7: Because because you left the church as he left the church.
Speaker 1: Now, look at these bad things happening to him. Look
Speaker 1: at him struggle. Now, he just lost his family, you know.
Speaker 1: And they so they all look at that like see,
Speaker 1: oh I leave the church, or you're going to end
Speaker 1: up divorced too, and so they just like they just
Speaker 1: talk about you like that. That's pretty wild.
Speaker 7: Yes, that is very wild.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh look how bad their life is going since they
Speaker 2: left the church.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's funny like when when I realized that
Speaker 1: the church wasn't true, I was sitting on it at
Speaker 1: my computer desk at my house in Poketello, Idaho, and
Speaker 1: I was four hundred pounds, I had bad vision, I
Speaker 1: was like all pre diabetic, super unhealthy, u super depressed,
Speaker 1: and like when that came unraveling, it felt like my
Speaker 1: whole life was falling apart. But fast forward and I've
Speaker 1: lost like one hundred and seventy five pounds now like
Speaker 1: I've got You could say I got divorced, but I
Speaker 1: actually got out of a bad marriage, Like I got
Speaker 1: out of a bad religion and out of a cult
Speaker 1: that I didn't belong in. And like since then, I've
Speaker 1: had like I'm more in touch with myself and my
Speaker 1: genuine authentic, just my own thoughts in my head and
Speaker 1: knowing who I am when I think my own thoughts
Speaker 1: and my own emotions and being clear about that to
Speaker 1: me is so valuable now. And I as a member
Speaker 1: of the church, I never had that, you know. I
Speaker 1: never had peace of mind or piece of emotion, of
Speaker 1: any kind of peace at all in my life. It
Speaker 1: was always like, got to do more. I got to
Speaker 1: go back to church, I got to read my scriptures.
Speaker 1: I didn't say my prayers this morning. It's like all
Speaker 1: these things that you feel like you've got to live
Speaker 1: up to, you know, and when all that goes away,
Speaker 1: you feel like it's going to be devastating. In some ways,
Speaker 1: it is, but it's also like finally coming up for
Speaker 1: air and like finally being able to understand your own
Speaker 1: mind and your own emotions and your own spirituality without
Speaker 1: all of that shoved in there. And it's crazy because
Speaker 1: there's songs that will come on the radio, or I'll
Speaker 1: see just something on the shelf at the grocery store
Speaker 1: or whatever, and it will trigger a memory of like
Speaker 1: a song of when I was in primary school, when
Speaker 1: I was like nine years old, and I was like
Speaker 1: a sunbeam at church, like and they were teaching me
Speaker 1: these songs. You know, Jesus wants me for a sun
Speaker 1: being too shiny for me, and like these songs like
Speaker 1: are baked into my head. I'm like forty six years old,
Speaker 1: and I'll catch myself still like yeah, in the back
Speaker 1: of my head, I'll have these phrases that come up
Speaker 1: that were totally from the church or out of the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon. I'm like, get out of there, dude, Like,
Speaker 1: who even am I without all that stuff in there?
Speaker 1: It's weird.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it just shows the depth of the conditioning, right,
Speaker 7: you know, it's a whole process, and you're like you're
Speaker 7: so much more tapped into like your authenticity and that's
Speaker 7: probably what allowed you to like like go of a
Speaker 7: lot of things and lose weight, take better care of yourself,
Speaker 7: like get more aligned in your relationships like all that.
Speaker 1: Right, There's there's tons of stuff like that, like just
Speaker 1: everything in your environment. Like even like when you go
Speaker 1: out on a cold morning and you try to start
Speaker 1: the truck up and it's struggling. There's your condition like
Speaker 1: as a Mormon to like start going, come on, you
Speaker 1: can do it, Like you're almost talking to your car,
Speaker 1: like it can hear you like you're talking like your
Speaker 1: truck is a living thing, but you're also subconsciously like praying.
Speaker 1: Come on, you could do it. And you're like, and
Speaker 1: I wonder sometimes I'm like, how much of that is
Speaker 1: because I was taught so much to pray? Or is
Speaker 1: that like a normal thing that normal people do? If
Speaker 1: your car is not starting, do you talk to it too?
Speaker 1: Like there's there's so many weird things about yourself that
Speaker 1: suddenly you wonder is that like a normal thing or
Speaker 1: does that come from like growing up in a cult
Speaker 1: where I like literally talk to myself in my own
Speaker 1: head all day like I have like it's like a
Speaker 1: form of counterfeit schizophrenia almost where you're raised a member
Speaker 1: of the Mormon Church, and it's like you have the
Speaker 1: Holy Ghost that's listening to you, you have the Light
Speaker 1: of Christ, You've got Heavenly Father. There's all your dead relatives,
Speaker 1: there's all the spirits of Satan and the evil demons
Speaker 1: that are trying to tempt you and everything. These are
Speaker 1: all like voices and thoughts and emotions that are going
Speaker 1: on inside of you, and you're supposed to sort all
Speaker 1: that out and just listen to the gospel, or just
Speaker 1: listen to the truth and listen to the prophet. He's
Speaker 1: the only one that can keep you safe, you know,
Speaker 1: like going to church and listening to the leaders and
Speaker 1: following them. They actually say stay in the boat, like
Speaker 1: don't get out of the boat, You'll drowned in the ocean.
Speaker 1: Like just stay a member of the church. Stay in
Speaker 1: the boat, don't get out. And they say like that,
Speaker 1: you know, and really what that is is like stay gullible,
Speaker 1: keep your head buried in the sand, stay in the cave,
Speaker 1: don't go look outside and realize there's a whole world
Speaker 1: out there. Just stay in the boat.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 1: It's such inbred thinking that it's really hard to get
Speaker 1: out of. It's really really hard to get out of.
Speaker 7: You never learn to trust your own voice. That's like abuse,
Speaker 7: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really hijack from the time you're eight years
Speaker 1: old when they do a baptism and then they do
Speaker 1: the Gift of the Holy Ghost ordinance, they basically ingrain
Speaker 1: into you that there's a spirit that's inside of you
Speaker 1: and following you around all day and watching and listening
Speaker 1: to everything that you do. That is a part of
Speaker 1: God and like part of the Godhead, and when you're
Speaker 1: eight years old, they do a ritual where they give
Speaker 1: you that gift of the Holy ghosts and that spirit.
Speaker 1: So you're suddenly instead of just being a kid going
Speaker 1: around just having your own thoughts to yourself, now all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's like there's God's watching, you know,
Speaker 1: and and the Holy ghost is there, and he's like
Speaker 1: a spirit that sees everything that you're doing, everything that
Speaker 1: you're thinking. So as soon as you have like a
Speaker 1: bad thought where you're like that asshole or something like
Speaker 1: that in your back of your mind, you're like ooh,
Speaker 1: and it's like like the little angel on your shoulder
Speaker 1: going ah ah, you know, and that's built into you
Speaker 1: to immediately self correct like that, you know, and you're
Speaker 1: taught that's God speaking to you self correcting. But the
Speaker 1: problem with it is it's so unreliable because it's so
Speaker 1: subjective to an individual that you can get off on
Speaker 1: these paths. And that's like that guy Chad daybel that
Speaker 1: murdered the kids and in the backyard or whatever he
Speaker 1: thought up to the moment when he did that and
Speaker 1: was burning those kids in the bonfire, that he was
Speaker 1: listening to that spirit, you know, he's sitting in prison
Speaker 1: right now up in Idaho, telling himself get down on
Speaker 1: his knees, probably saying his prayers to go to bed
Speaker 1: tonight right now in prison, and he believes that he
Speaker 1: was listening to the same spirit that other people have
Speaker 1: listened to and had to make those hard decisions, just
Speaker 1: like Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac in the Bible.
Speaker 1: They call it like the Abrahamic tests, you know, like
Speaker 1: you do really have the faith to do that if
Speaker 1: God asks you to, and he's I guarantee you he's
Speaker 1: sitting in prison right now holding on to that and
Speaker 1: believes that he's still listening to the Holy Ghost, you know.
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just completely unreliable. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: It's just you. It's just you questioning yourself and giving
Speaker 1: yourself a bunch of internal split personality basically, you know,
Speaker 1: and you think that you're talking to God, and really
Speaker 1: you're just chasing your own internal thoughts around like a
Speaker 1: dog chasing his tail, that's all.
Speaker 7: Said, Yeah, chasing. I guess that's why so many Mormon
Speaker 7: women are on like all these different anti anxiety meds,
Speaker 7: and but I don't know that's what that's what Haidi said, Yeah, hew,
Speaker 7: do you love She told me. She told me about
Speaker 7: that a couple of times.
Speaker 1: So there's everything is off limits. You know, when you
Speaker 1: live in that culture where you don't even pick your
Speaker 1: own underwear. You get up in the morning and you
Speaker 1: don't even choose the underwear that you put on. The
Speaker 1: church decides all of that for you. You can't drink coffee,
Speaker 1: you know, like real hot drinks. Really, no beer, no weed,
Speaker 1: you're not you can't even think thoughts in your head.
Speaker 1: There's so many things like that. So there's there's only
Speaker 1: a couple of things that you feel like you don't
Speaker 1: have to feel guilty about, and that's if the doctor
Speaker 1: prescribes it, Like if they prescribe your hydro codon and
Speaker 1: you get hooked on opiates that way, then you can
Speaker 1: be like doctor said, it's okay, and the church doesn't
Speaker 1: say anything about that. And the other one is just food.
Speaker 1: Like so a lot of Mormons are super overweight and
Speaker 1: out of shape because they get addicted to food because
Speaker 1: you can't drink, you can't smoke, you can't you can't
Speaker 1: even you're sitting there as a grown man and you're
Speaker 1: watching Disney movies. You know, you can't even watch RATEDAR movies,
Speaker 1: and pretty soon that's like a pressure cooker, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so if the one thing that
Speaker 1: you can do is eat pizza, that's how you wind
Speaker 1: up four hundred pounds like I was. He's just like,
Speaker 1: it's you just didn't can indulge in the one thing
Speaker 1: you don't feel guilty about, you know. Yeah, so it
Speaker 1: can be a bad formula for sure.
Speaker 7: Absolutely begging for a So I think, what's with the
Speaker 7: Noah hot drinks? Where's that? Do you know where that
Speaker 7: comes from?
Speaker 1: You know? An arbitrary rule like yeah, Joseph Smith back
Speaker 1: in the day when he was the prophet, basically as
Speaker 1: soon as that was established and he had a following
Speaker 1: that believed that he was the prophet, that he was
Speaker 1: talking to God, then suddenly everybody was coming to him like,
Speaker 1: well what about this? Is this right? Is this wrong?
Speaker 1: What about that? You know? And so it was really
Speaker 1: how they built the church to begin with was through
Speaker 1: plagiarizing and through borrowing bits and pieces and building it
Speaker 1: together like a puzzle. And so one of the more
Speaker 1: popular things that Joseph Smith's time was the Temperance movement
Speaker 1: and they had a belief that if you drink hot
Speaker 1: drinks that were like like hot coffee and tea, that
Speaker 1: it would actually like boil the inside of your stomach
Speaker 1: and kill the healthy parts of your gut and things,
Speaker 1: and that you should only drink liquids at room temperature
Speaker 1: and things. And it's just a myth, you know, that's
Speaker 1: been proven that it's not even true, but it was
Speaker 1: part of the temperance movement. So when everybody started coming
Speaker 1: to Joseph Smith and they're like, well, what about tobacco
Speaker 1: and what about alcohol? And what about this? What about that?
Speaker 1: They had to come back with an answer, and so
Speaker 1: they came up with what's called the Doctrine Covenants, and
Speaker 1: it's considered scripture now, just like the Bible and the
Speaker 1: Book of Mormon they consider in the church, they consider
Speaker 1: it part of the scriptures. And it's published printed right
Speaker 1: as a part of the scriptures too, in the same binding.
Speaker 1: And it's basically there's a whole chapter in there that's
Speaker 1: the Lord's Law of health, and they call it the
Speaker 1: Word of Wisdom, and it's basically Joseph Smith just saying like,
Speaker 1: don't eat a lot of meat except for in times
Speaker 1: of famine or in times of winter, no coffee or tea,
Speaker 1: avoid hot drinks, and it just basically no tobacco, made
Speaker 1: up a whole bunch of health rules and stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: and the church members of the church don't even really
Speaker 1: follow it that well, except for like the way it
Speaker 1: kind of has rattled down through the generations is basically,
Speaker 1: don't drink coffee or tea, don't drink alcohol, don't smoke
Speaker 1: or use tobacco products, and then anything that's like an
Speaker 1: addictive chemical they consider against the Word of wisdom, you know.
Speaker 1: And when you go to talk to your bishop to
Speaker 1: try and get permission to go to the temple, they
Speaker 1: ask you if you live according to the Word of wisdom,
Speaker 1: like if you follow the Lord's lot of law of health,
Speaker 1: and if you're drinking coffee, like if you went to
Speaker 1: Starbucks that morning, then you can't go to the temple.
Speaker 1: They'll say, no, they won't give you the recommend so
Speaker 1: you have to be following the law of health. But
Speaker 1: it's all super arbitrary because like, like I've sat in
Speaker 1: church where they've talked for a whole hour about the
Speaker 1: Word of Wisdom and the law of health and all
Speaker 1: that stuff, and right in there it says not to
Speaker 1: eat very much meat, like to just eat meat sparingly,
Speaker 1: almost like a vegetarian, you know. And as soon as
Speaker 1: the meeting was over, they get done talking about it
Speaker 1: for a whole hour and then the High priestcript leader
Speaker 1: gets up and he's like, Hey, this Tuesday night, we're
Speaker 1: having a big steak fry. We're gonna be cooking a
Speaker 1: bunch of steaks in the fryer, and are you come
Speaker 1: over in my house? So let's you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: They talk about it and get up there and everybody
Speaker 1: acts like they're following it, and then they announced the
Speaker 1: steak fry immediately after. So it's like some of that
Speaker 1: you're looking around, like if you really believe the church
Speaker 1: like I did, I would look around. I'm like, nobody's
Speaker 1: even really following this, Like what are we doing here?
Speaker 1: Those were some of those moments where I'm like, a
Speaker 1: steak fry, like we just got them talking about this, guys, Like.
Speaker 7: How many people in that congregation actually caught that?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 7: The only one.
Speaker 1: Like that was the one where yeah, I would. I
Speaker 1: went home from that meeting. I was like, what the
Speaker 1: hell's going on here, like, are we really like literally
Speaker 1: we talked about that for an hour and then we
Speaker 1: got up like it didn't even matter, just announce the
Speaker 1: steak fry like nobody's even gonna fry. Was like it
Speaker 1: was hilarious, Like that happened. That stuff happens all the time. Man,
Speaker 1: that's funny. Man.
Speaker 7: I wonder how many like dietary guidelines come from that. Actually,
Speaker 7: that just kind of like migrated from Mormonism into like
Speaker 7: modern dietary mythos, you know, like the little to know
Speaker 7: me like that's what they teach in school.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but when all those different when those
Speaker 1: different dietary trends come up or down or shift or whatever,
Speaker 1: whenever one one kind of hits, they're like see Joseph
Speaker 1: Smith knew like they right, Like when one comes up
Speaker 1: like this this is the new healthy thing, then the
Speaker 1: more are like see see Joseph Smith was right. You know,
Speaker 1: two hundred years ago we knew he was a prophet.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, come on, you could get come around.
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure that the in Utah that most of
Speaker 5: like the supplement and vitamin industry comes from there as well.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's totally unregulated on that end too, like
Speaker 1: like I could start, uh, I could start like a
Speaker 1: creatine company or like a protein powder way protein powder
Speaker 1: company here in my kitchen. And as long as I
Speaker 1: just copied the ingredients over from where I got the stuff,
Speaker 1: I could put my own label on it. And it's
Speaker 1: like in the state of Utah, it's almost completely unregulated.
Speaker 1: And then I could sell it on Amazon, like it's
Speaker 1: a and you have no idea what's in it, Like
Speaker 1: there's tons of MLM things like that. And Mormons are
Speaker 1: big on like tons of people drinking energy drinks. Like
Speaker 1: around here instead of Starbucks, they have what's called swigs
Speaker 1: or like pops, and they're basically they're like drive through
Speaker 1: soda shops, so like you could pull through and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I want a Big Joe or something like that, and
Speaker 1: it's literally like a diet coke with coconut cream and lime.
Speaker 1: And they basically try to treat every soda and diet
Speaker 1: soda you can think of, like doctor Pepper or whatever.
Speaker 1: Like it's a bar, like it's a mixture drink bar.
Speaker 1: And so you in the summertime, you go look at
Speaker 1: the swigs here in Saint George Utah, and there is
Speaker 1: a line clear down the road, like of cars trying
Speaker 1: to go through the drive through because you can't drink
Speaker 1: coffee can like instead of getting up and going to
Speaker 1: Starbucks or whatever to get amocha, they all go get
Speaker 1: their swig.
Speaker 7: That is fascinating. Yeah. I didn't know about the no
Speaker 7: caffeine and the no hot drinks for the longest time,
Speaker 7: and then a friend of mine started selling this stuff.
Speaker 7: An MLM is called a mare Global or something. It's
Speaker 7: from Utah and it's in and enter like it's a
Speaker 7: neurotropic so basically gives you this sort of the effects
Speaker 7: of caffeine, but like makes you literally feel like you're
Speaker 7: on like M D M A Like. I tried it
Speaker 7: and I was like, yo, I don't even want this
Speaker 7: every day, like what they call it happy juice. Yeah,
Speaker 7: And I was like, no, wonder it comes from Utah,
Speaker 7: Like now that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1: And then you're like have you looked at the ingredients
Speaker 1: And they're.
Speaker 7: Like, it's not caffeine. So it's a loud right, Like.
Speaker 1: They don't want to if it lands on the radar
Speaker 1: of the church, then the church theaters might come out
Speaker 1: and mention it and then all of a sudden they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we got to quit drinking this now.
Speaker 7: No, but I think I think it's Mormon run company.
Speaker 7: Like I was just like, ah, I know, getting around
Speaker 7: the caffeine loophole.
Speaker 1: They do that all over the place. There's there's so
Speaker 1: many MLMs and companies and startups like that, Like all
Speaker 1: over the place. There's a huge one called Mela Luca.
Speaker 1: It's like a huge makeup and lotion and like health
Speaker 1: and beauty supply store whatever, a massive, massive company. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember I was like a little kid when that started.
Speaker 1: But a lot of those start in Idaho and Utah
Speaker 1: and half of half of how Las Vegas and Nevada,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the secret military installations were contracts
Speaker 1: through the government and the state of Nevada and Utah
Speaker 1: and the Church, and a lot of people don't know that,
Speaker 1: but there was a lot of relationship back and forth.
Speaker 1: Like when the mafia was building Las Vegas, the Mormon
Speaker 1: Church moved in with all of their money and basically
Speaker 1: Mike bought up and controlled over half of the city
Speaker 1: and then got the government involved. And that's a lot
Speaker 1: of how like Area fifty one and doug Way Airfield,
Speaker 1: NSA headquarters in Utah, and a bunch of that stuff
Speaker 1: got done. Part of why the church is one of
Speaker 1: the richest in the country now, if not the richest
Speaker 1: church in the country. But yeah, they make deals behind
Speaker 1: the curtain all the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had a guest on that like pretty much
Speaker 4: like it was showing stuff like that about like I
Speaker 4: think the government giving them money pretty much of the CIA,
Speaker 4: so they kind of get involved inside the church.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Mormon Church has gotten caught before. Like I said,
Speaker 1: I went on a mission to Arkansas when I was nineteen,
Speaker 1: and before you go on a mission, you have to
Speaker 1: go to the Missionary Training Center. They call it the MTC.
Speaker 1: It's like a boot camp. It's basically like a college
Speaker 1: campus in Provo, Utah, right next to BYU, and you
Speaker 1: actually go live there in the dorms and it's like
Speaker 1: you're training and living like a missionary full time, but
Speaker 1: it's all supervised. So before they send you out, like
Speaker 1: to the Philippines or Guatemala or something like that, or
Speaker 1: like I went to Arkansas, you have to go there.
Speaker 1: So like I only went for I think I went
Speaker 1: for six weeks, but some missionaries if you're learning a
Speaker 1: foreign language, you'll go for like three months and live
Speaker 1: there because you're like every day and all day you're
Speaker 1: like speaking Spanish or whatever to learn the new language.
Speaker 1: And then at the end of the three months, they
Speaker 1: ship you out and they pair you up with somebody,
Speaker 1: and then you've got to do it, you know. But
Speaker 1: when you go into the NTC, you're like in the
Speaker 1: uniform all day and you're you're living with a bunch
Speaker 1: of people you don't know, and the that are just
Speaker 1: from all over the place that are all going through
Speaker 1: the same thing. It's just like going into army boot camp.
Speaker 1: But the Church has gotten caught a few times where
Speaker 1: they've made deals where they've had CIA agents go in
Speaker 1: with fake identities, like fake passports and fake IDs, pretending
Speaker 1: to be a nineteen year old missionary, and then they
Speaker 1: go through the MTC just like they're one of the kids.
Speaker 1: And then they the church assigns them like to go
Speaker 1: to Uruguay or somewhere, or down to Cuba or something,
Speaker 1: you know, and then next thing you know, there's two
Speaker 1: CIA assets pretending to be Mormon missionaries that are in
Speaker 1: Cuba together, and then the mission president gets the order
Speaker 1: to put these two missionaries together to work together in
Speaker 1: the community. And then you've basically the church has helped
Speaker 1: the CIA smuggle two spies to do espionage. And then
Speaker 1: you've got two CIA assets living together pretending to be
Speaker 1: Mormon missionaries in a foreign country. And they even the
Speaker 1: church even paid to teach them the language, you know.
Speaker 1: And then they yeah, and they can go around all
Speaker 1: day in the daytime and put their hour in and
Speaker 1: just play the role and do the missionary thing on
Speaker 1: the surface. But then they're actually going out as CIA
Speaker 1: assets and getting intel doing their doing their real job.
Speaker 1: But they've gotten caught. I mean, you can google it,
Speaker 1: look it up. The church has gotten caught a couple
Speaker 1: of times with the CIA assets embedded into the missionary
Speaker 1: training program pretending like they were nineteen year old missionaries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a whole thing. Yeah, yeah, no one suspects you.
Speaker 8: You're able to go to door to door and.
Speaker 1: Right, it's the perfect cover.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They just look like a like a couple of
Speaker 1: nineteen year old kids that are out there helping the
Speaker 1: old lady mold the lawn. You'd have no idea that
Speaker 1: they're spying on the embassy, you know, good cover.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is genius.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of those deals get done, like and
Speaker 1: it's easy to use Mormons and wealthy members of the
Speaker 1: church and the church itself to do like land grabs,
Speaker 1: the buy real estate and things like that, and then
Speaker 1: they'll lease it out through government contracts to put like
Speaker 1: big government installations and things on the land. And so
Speaker 1: there's a ton of that that goes on too, because
Speaker 1: the church can go like imagine like up in Idaho
Speaker 1: or Utah, the church can see this this farmer out here,
Speaker 1: he's got all this acreage, he's got like five hundred
Speaker 1: acres that his great grandpa had that he inherited or whatever.
Speaker 1: The Church can go out there and pressure them and
Speaker 1: guilt trip them and be like this is the work
Speaker 1: of the Lord, you know, and manipulate that guy to
Speaker 1: selling the land for almost nothing or even giving it
Speaker 1: donating it to the church like it's a test of
Speaker 1: his faith, you know. So the church will just take
Speaker 1: all that land and then they'll turn around and either
Speaker 1: build like a big shopping mall on it or a
Speaker 1: big condo on it or whatever. They don't even build
Speaker 1: like a temple or anything religious on it, or they'll
Speaker 1: they'll establish the land and like build another NSA headquarters
Speaker 1: on on it or something and lease it back to
Speaker 1: the government. So that's why they're busy do it and
Speaker 1: why they're so wealthy. Yeah, it's like it's a really
Speaker 1: easy way to get away with it and the launder
Speaker 1: the money and to make it look like charities and
Speaker 1: just do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: Damn. Yeah, that is wild.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see, And some people figure that out, like
Speaker 1: as members of the church, you see how wealthy the
Speaker 1: church is and what they're doing, and you just tell
Speaker 1: yourself that you're glad you're on the winning team, you know, like, God,
Speaker 1: it's hard guys, like, we're right.
Speaker 7: Oh my god. That's one way to look at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's better us. Who else do you think
Speaker 1: should have all this money? Course it should be the prophet.
Speaker 1: I would give him. I would give him my house
Speaker 1: if he asked me as a test of my faith.
Speaker 1: You know, that's the spirit, you know, those are the
Speaker 1: promises that you make though when you go through the
Speaker 1: Temple and the endowment. One of the covenants and the
Speaker 1: promises that you make in the temple is that you
Speaker 1: will give all of your time, talents, and resources and
Speaker 1: everything that you have to the church if required. That's
Speaker 1: literally almost word for word what they ask you. And
Speaker 1: you have to raise your arm in the air and
Speaker 1: then bow your head and say yes out loud and
Speaker 1: make those like you'll give all your time, talents, and
Speaker 1: all that you have. It says, even your life if
Speaker 1: necessary to the building up of the Church of Jesus
Speaker 1: Christ and Latter day Saints and the Lord's Kingdom. And
Speaker 1: you put your arm in the air and you say yes,
Speaker 1: and you make so when you leave, it's like a
Speaker 1: big deal, you know, yeah, like.
Speaker 7: For sure, Damn, that's crazy.
Speaker 5: That's a very big deal.
Speaker 1: Come on.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I guess that's why they build up years
Speaker 7: of like you know, kind of crushing your questioning spirit,
Speaker 7: you know, to then bring you to that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you're finally in there making those oaths, when
Speaker 1: you're going through the temple, it's like everybody around you,
Speaker 1: even like your dad, your uncle, your brothers, are in there,
Speaker 1: like you're going through for the first time, the whole community,
Speaker 1: Like you know, half of the people in the room
Speaker 1: or from your church, you know, they're there for you
Speaker 1: to go through. It's like your birthday or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like a whole big deal, like your baptism. So
Speaker 1: it's like a big thing everybody's been looking for, looking
Speaker 1: forward to you going through the temple, and then you
Speaker 1: get in there and you're they're like, you're what's your choice? Is? Like,
Speaker 1: what's your option? You either go through with it and
Speaker 1: follow along and just mimic what everybody else is doing
Speaker 1: and get through the whole thing. You're like, you've already
Speaker 1: gone through all these curtains, You've already gone through all
Speaker 1: these different steps, and you're in so deep. Now you're
Speaker 1: in this whole room and everybody's chanting and you're like yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and you're all praying, you're doing all this weird shit.
Speaker 1: But you're looking around and there's your dad, there's your grandpa,
Speaker 1: your brothers, everybody's going along with it like it's like
Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do, like like it's just normal,
Speaker 1: you know, like they've and they're like, isn't this cool?
Speaker 1: You know, wow, isn't this such a special experience?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And you're like, I guess, so, you know, I guess
Speaker 1: it's kind of weird, but you just like go along
Speaker 1: with it because you feel like I'm the weird one,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm the one who doesn't get it.
Speaker 1: I'm just confused because I I've never done it before.
Speaker 1: So you just feel like you're the one who doesn't
Speaker 1: get what's going on. But yeah, so you just put
Speaker 1: your arm up and just go through it, and inside
Speaker 1: yourself you're just like, please help me figure this out.
Speaker 1: The hell's going on?
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I remember going home after I went through
Speaker 1: the temple the first time, my mind was just blowing.
Speaker 1: I remember I told one of my friends who hadn't
Speaker 1: gone through yet, and I was like, dude, you have
Speaker 1: no idea. He's like, what are you talking about. I
Speaker 1: was like, I think, like I went through the temple
Speaker 1: and it's like I know what the church is really
Speaker 1: all about now. And he's like, well, what is it
Speaker 1: all about? I was like, I don't know, and I'm
Speaker 1: not supposed to tell you. It's like a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of handshakes, all that Masonic initiation stuff, you know, Like
Speaker 1: it was so different than normal Sunday church. I was
Speaker 1: like wow, Like but to me, part of me was like,
Speaker 1: if this is real, then this is like how you
Speaker 1: learn real magic, Like this is really like you're telling
Speaker 1: me like like God or an angel can show up
Speaker 1: inside the temple and like I might see one in there,
Speaker 1: and so you just get like obsessed with it, like
Speaker 1: if it's true, you want to get really good at it.
Speaker 1: You know. I tried to memorize it all. I tried
Speaker 1: to I tried to be really good at it. I
Speaker 1: went to the temple and did all the time. All
Speaker 1: the time. I went back and over and over and
Speaker 1: over again. And then you get out of the church
Speaker 1: and you look back and you go, well, that was
Speaker 1: a waste of time, you know, right, Yeah, it would
Speaker 1: have been better to go like help real people, like
Speaker 1: in a homeless place or something.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it seems like it contradicts the teachings of Jesus
Speaker 8: quite a bit, you know. It seems you know, he's
Speaker 8: knocking over the exchanging money at the church and all that,
Speaker 8: and so how do they reconcile.
Speaker 1: That they don't? You know that those were all some
Speaker 1: of the things that made me ultimately realize that the
Speaker 1: church was corrupt and why I left it. It was
Speaker 1: one of the things they did was the church built
Speaker 1: the City Creek Mall. They spent like almost forty million
Speaker 1: dollars building a huge shopping mall right across the street
Speaker 1: from the Salt Lake Temple. And to me, there's like,
Speaker 1: straight up, like you said, the story right in the
Speaker 1: Bible where Jesus goes to the temple and he sees
Speaker 1: the priests, the Pharisees and the Sadducees and stuff the
Speaker 1: priests of the temple and they're like working at the
Speaker 1: steps of the temple and right across the street, and
Speaker 1: they've turned it into a marketplace. So he gets mad
Speaker 1: and literally chases him off with a whip, you know,
Speaker 1: for desecrating his house. And then the Mormon Church spends
Speaker 1: like forty million dollars and builds a giant outdoor shopping
Speaker 1: mall right across the street. And I'm like, instead of
Speaker 1: a homeless shelter or like something that actually helps people,
Speaker 1: they built like a giant, multimillion dollars shopping mall. I'm like,
Speaker 1: it's just obvious that if Jesus actually comes back, like
Speaker 1: like they're counting on for doomsday, if he was going
Speaker 1: to toss the tables over back then in Jerusalem, what
Speaker 1: do you think is he's going to do to the
Speaker 1: city creek mall like that, Like, what do you really
Speaker 1: think is going to happen, like and they when you
Speaker 1: bring that stuff up, like when I try to bring
Speaker 1: it up with my brothers or anybody who's still a
Speaker 1: member of the church, they just like they just say, well,
Speaker 1: the corporations of the church are different than the religious
Speaker 1: institutions of the church, and they just compartmentalize it all.
Speaker 1: And they also say, like when I talk about Chad
Speaker 1: Daybell murdering his kids in the backyard or whatever, they
Speaker 1: just say, well, the members of the church are individual
Speaker 1: people with problems. They don't represent the gospel or the
Speaker 1: or the church as a whole, you know, And they
Speaker 1: just have a way to rationalize anything that happens, you know,
Speaker 1: like they look at the shopping mall, they look at
Speaker 1: all of that, and instead of they're putting it on
Speaker 1: their shelf and their shelf breaking, they just bottle all
Speaker 1: that up like a pressure cooker and they just stay faithful,
Speaker 1: you know, they just bury it and keep going. They
Speaker 1: don't even question it. They doubt their doubts as soon
Speaker 1: as they start to think about that. As soon as
Speaker 1: they start to question it or start to feel like
Speaker 1: that's bad, that must be a temptation from the from
Speaker 1: the devil trying to get them to leave the church,
Speaker 1: and so you just shut it off, you know, go
Speaker 1: see your prayers and get back on to the rituals.
Speaker 7: That's a line and a half. Doubt your dots out.
Speaker 1: Your doubts collect slogan.
Speaker 7: Well, my kids sometime when.
Speaker 1: The prophet came out and said when the prophet came
Speaker 1: out and said that, like over the pulpit, that was
Speaker 1: like a whole thing like that was like a slogan
Speaker 1: forever for like ten years, everybody went around in the
Speaker 1: church saying that doubt your doubts. Yeah, and stay in
Speaker 1: the boat. That was another one I've.
Speaker 7: Heard that, Yeah, even when Catholicism and stuff.
Speaker 9: You know, it's interesting, Yeah, similar to I've heard a
Speaker 9: lot of similar things with Jehovah's witness that similar kind
Speaker 9: of thing of the shunning, and yeah, it's.
Speaker 1: Really interesting, a lot of similar patterns. I think some
Speaker 1: of those organizations that were founded during that same era
Speaker 1: that came up and became different American religions all have
Speaker 1: sort of that that weird basis.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's there's even like like the Jove's Witnesses, like
Speaker 6: the original guys they like built this house because there's
Speaker 6: about seven dates they have for Armageddon, but I want
Speaker 6: to say it was a nineteen fourteen date they chose,
Speaker 6: and they built a whole house for the angels to
Speaker 6: basically stay in for for Armageddon, like like angels would
Speaker 6: need material items and right houses.
Speaker 1: And that's the idea. What I can't get about, like
Speaker 1: every Mormon temple and why they think there needs to
Speaker 1: be a temple in New Jerusalem and they literally think
Speaker 1: that the temple in Salt Lake City. So I've been there.
Speaker 1: I've been inside the Salt Lake Temple, the main one.
Speaker 1: I mean, they've got hundreds of temples all over the
Speaker 1: world now, but the big main one in Salt Lake
Speaker 1: City is very Masonic and very old school. It was
Speaker 1: built like by Brigham Young back in the old day,
Speaker 1: you know, like the original. And man, you go in
Speaker 1: there and it's like they have a room in the
Speaker 1: upper level, like you go up these spiral staircases, you
Speaker 1: go through all the different stuff, and then once you
Speaker 1: finish the endowment and you go through the veil, you're
Speaker 1: in what they call the Celestial Room, and it's like
Speaker 1: this big ornate room with all these stained glass and
Speaker 1: it's like vaulted ceilings and all this crazy stuff, all
Speaker 1: ornately done. But off to the side, there's like this
Speaker 1: room that's like locked with these huge doors, and they've
Speaker 1: got these big like vases, like planters with plants in
Speaker 1: front of it, and there's like a person standing there
Speaker 1: all dressed in white, and they swear that that's the
Speaker 1: Holy of Holies, the exact same thing as what Moses
Speaker 1: had in the Tabernacle, where they kept the Arc of
Speaker 1: the Covenant, where God or Jehovah would appear. You know,
Speaker 1: they would go through the different animal sacrifices out in
Speaker 1: the outer chamber of the Tabernacle and then go in
Speaker 1: and burn the incense and then go into the veil
Speaker 1: into the Holy of Holies, and then God would appear
Speaker 1: and tell the children of Israel what to do. And
Speaker 1: in the Salt Lake Temple, they believe that they have
Speaker 1: the real Holy of Holies and that it's there. Like
Speaker 1: I've gone up and like touched the doorknob and the door.
Speaker 1: There was one time where the doors were open and
Speaker 1: I looked in the room. It's like all the walls
Speaker 1: and that there's these two mirrors on either side. So
Speaker 1: they like when you look in the mirror. They reflect
Speaker 1: each other, like the walls are both giant mirrors, and
Speaker 1: so like each mirror is like an infinity mirror. So
Speaker 1: when you look in one, it reflects all the way
Speaker 1: to the other for infinity in both directions. It's just
Speaker 1: like two giant infinity mirrors. And then the whole room
Speaker 1: is done with like all these rubies and gems and
Speaker 1: jewels and like all this crazy ornate stuff and all
Speaker 1: or elaborate. But yeah, they swear that the Mormon prophet
Speaker 1: and the apostles or whatever go in there and they
Speaker 1: say their prayers or whatever, and then like like Jesus
Speaker 1: appears to them and tells them what to do. That's
Speaker 1: why they are members of the church. Are like okay
Speaker 1: with whatever they do. If they build a shopping mall
Speaker 1: or whatever, if they hoard three hundred billion dollars, they
Speaker 1: don't care because they think, you know, the Holy of
Speaker 1: Holies like Gods is literally showing up in the slike
Speaker 1: temple and running the church. They believe. They believe that
Speaker 1: it is being run by Jesus, like the prophet is
Speaker 1: just a spokesperson. Like my brother flat out believes that
Speaker 1: Jesus appears and materializes in that room in the Holies
Speaker 1: in Salt Lake and tells Russell M. Nelson what to
Speaker 1: do with the church. Every every time he goes in there. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's the belief.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 5: I'd argue there's something in there he's talking.
Speaker 1: To, and he's talking to something for sure. It's all
Speaker 1: the lawyers from Curtin McConkey. They're just handed him a
Speaker 1: stack at child abuse lawsuits. He's got a deal and
Speaker 1: that's what he's that's what he's thinking about in there. Ye. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who knows what he's talking about or who he's talking to.
Speaker 1: Where that all originated was from Joseph Smith doing that
Speaker 1: and Nochian magic, putting a herestone in a hat, putting
Speaker 1: his space in it, and then talking to God through
Speaker 1: a rock in the hat. So like they still have
Speaker 1: that rock and they still have the hat. So he
Speaker 1: probably goes in there and tries to do that. Probably know,
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: I gotta tell Carl something that happened when we did
Speaker 6: that Eclipse episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6: I was reading up on Joseph Smith looking into the hat.
Speaker 6: And then at work the next day at one of
Speaker 6: my restaurants, I delivered to this this lady walks out
Speaker 6: with one of those old hats in her hand and
Speaker 6: walks to her car and it was an old one too,
Speaker 6: gets in the car and drives off.
Speaker 5: Really, what the heck out of a restaurant too?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? What are the odds on top hat?
Speaker 6: Just like that, just an old copad in her hand,
Speaker 6: and she's like waiting across the street.
Speaker 5: And she didn't come out until as soon.
Speaker 2: As I pulled into the plates and there where the
Speaker 2: restaurant is at.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hilarious. Yes, I still have to just because
Speaker 1: of just because of being brought up in the church.
Speaker 1: Like we were joking earlier about how like when my
Speaker 1: car won't start or something, I'll like talk to it
Speaker 1: and still like catch myself like I'm praying or something.
Speaker 1: Even though I don't have those beliefs anymore, it's like
Speaker 1: baked into me. I still when I go places, like
Speaker 1: when I go up and visit like Skinwalker Ranch, or
Speaker 1: I'm someplace where there's supposed to be a UFO crash
Speaker 1: or whatever, I cannot help myself. I like I have
Speaker 1: to find a weird looking rock and like take it
Speaker 1: and I bring it back and I feel like somehow
Speaker 1: deepen down like like this rock knows and wants to
Speaker 1: come home with me and I and I don't care,
Speaker 1: like I know that some of that comes from the
Speaker 1: Church and from Joseph Smith and the Seerstone thing, because
Speaker 1: like you're always like I wonder if there's a Searstone
Speaker 1: for me, you know, and so like like I have
Speaker 1: my desk right now, I've got rocks from Skinwalker ranching
Speaker 1: all over the place and all over my house because
Speaker 1: I like, I can't help myself. It's like one of
Speaker 1: those one of those things probably from the Church and
Speaker 1: Joseph Smith and Seerstone. Where now I'm a little like
Speaker 1: a rock collector. When I go somewhere special, I'm like
Speaker 1: that rock's supposed to come home with me. That's a
Speaker 1: special one.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 8: I don't feel bad.
Speaker 1: I got them all.
Speaker 5: Are you like going through my phone or something?
Speaker 6: I swear every every time we talk, you talk about
Speaker 6: the very things I'm looking into weeks before.
Speaker 1: Feels like that sometimes, right, for sure.
Speaker 5: It does feel like that sometimes. Do you have any
Speaker 5: ams tonight?
Speaker 1: Don't have any what Amson night? And it's Amazon?
Speaker 5: Amazon? Amazon Night? Yeah, like Amazon, I don't think.
Speaker 1: I do, huh.
Speaker 4: No, all right, it's a stone, a crystal, right, Yeah,
Speaker 4: it was special powers or something.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's like supposedly like one of the.
Speaker 8: Solomon warred on his chest. We got tons of it
Speaker 8: out here in Colorado. The youths used to pull it
Speaker 8: out of the ground and make medicine wheels with it.
Speaker 8: It's like a bluish greenstone.
Speaker 6: Oh okay, Yeah, it's kind it's kind of like turquoise,
Speaker 6: but it's it's different.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I might actually have a piece of that out on
Speaker 1: my entertainment center by my TV. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: it was called, but that's probably it. It looks like
Speaker 1: turquoise like blue with like this a weird almost it
Speaker 1: looks almost like toothpaste, like like a turquoise green going through.
Speaker 5: It, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 8: The Egyptians, the Phoenicians, you, King Solomon on his breastplate
Speaker 8: had one in it and it was really important to
Speaker 8: the hut.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty special stone.
Speaker 1: That's cool. Yeah, I'm into it. I wish I was
Speaker 1: better at geology, and I wish I knew more of
Speaker 1: them more. Most of it's just like that's a weird
Speaker 1: looking rock, and so I take it home with me
Speaker 1: and then sometimes I find out later what it is.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's cool. I like stuff like that.
Speaker 4: But all right, uh, if you guys don't mind, just
Speaker 4: due to time and stuff, I'm gonna probably have to
Speaker 4: wrap this episode up, uh, Carl, I will definitely if
Speaker 4: you don't mind, I would love to get you back
Speaker 4: on in the future and actually talk about this little
Speaker 4: machine you got going on and everything else going on separately.
Speaker 4: Maybe we can get you on because if I pull
Speaker 4: that up now, we're going to be in here for
Speaker 4: another twenty thirty minutes.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, conversation.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, And I'm actually thinking like if I give
Speaker 4: you some time, you might actually just have more stuff
Speaker 4: to talk about anyway, you know.
Speaker 1: Along, Yeah, that's all kind of tentative. We got, yeah,
Speaker 1: big announcements coming with the modular study that we have
Speaker 1: going on with doctor Gym Sigala, but all that's still tentative,
Speaker 1: but hopefully being able to make a big announcement soon.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we'll save that for another.
Speaker 4: One, definitely, definitely, And if that definitely goes through, I'll
Speaker 4: have you on just to you know, talk about like
Speaker 4: you said, so thank you very much. Call, I always
Speaker 4: appreciate your stories. I know this one is a little
Speaker 4: bit different, like the last episode was a little bit
Speaker 4: more personal about your other things. But uh, this is
Speaker 4: a plethora of information and just to hear the experience
Speaker 4: that somebody had, you know, and thank you for you know,
Speaker 4: very much for being so candid and just open and honest.
Speaker 1: You know, I appreciate that pleasure.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and uh, Teresa, real quick, let everybody know
Speaker 4: where they can find your wonderful show at.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So I have the Spiritual Gangsters, which is on of
Speaker 7: course YouTube, Rumble, all the audio platforms where you can
Speaker 7: find podcasts, and also doing my tinfoil hats again, so
Speaker 7: if anyone wants a hat that says whatever you want
Speaker 7: on it. But a lot of people seem to like
Speaker 7: the tinfoil one. But yeah, I'm doing those right now
Speaker 7: and those are all my link tree and whatnot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely go check those out tin foil hats or
Speaker 4: whatever else you get. A RIZ no cap.
Speaker 7: Yeah for the teens out there folk, the Riz and
Speaker 7: skivity and all this know what they mean.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Yeah, her links, her links will be.
Speaker 4: In the bottom and Carl, let everybody know again where
Speaker 4: they can find your work as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just look up Carl Crusher on YouTube, Instagram, everywhere, rumble.
Speaker 1: If you type in Carl Crusher you'll be able to
Speaker 1: find me. You should pop right up.
Speaker 2: Awesome.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much and I will have your show
Speaker 4: notes in the bottom and thrash of Mike. Thank you
Speaker 4: very much for coming on again as usual. I'm sure
Speaker 4: I will see you guys shortly as well. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: that is the end of another Occult Rejects and until
Speaker 4: the next one, everybody be well.
Speaker 1: Later