Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening.
Speaker 3: On a December night in nineteen seventy eight, Courtney lond
Speaker 3: O'Neill's mother, teenage Kim Byers, saw her friend Rob Piecete
Speaker 3: alive for the last time at the end of his
Speaker 3: shift at the pharmacy where they both worked. Fifteen year
Speaker 3: old Rob outside to speak to a contractor named John
Speaker 3: Wayne Gacy about a possible job.
Speaker 2: That night, Rob.
Speaker 3: Became Gasey's final victim. His body was later found in
Speaker 3: the Splains River. Kim's testimony, along with a receipt belonging
Speaker 3: to her, found in Gasey's house, proving that Rob had
Speaker 3: been there, would be pivotal in convicting the serial killer
Speaker 3: who assaulted and killed over thirty young men and boys.
Speaker 3: Though she grew up far from Displains, Courtney has lived
Speaker 3: in the shadow of that nightmare keenly aware of its
Speaker 3: impact on her mother. In search of deeper understanding enclosure,
Speaker 3: Courtney and Kim travel back to Illinois. Post Mortem transforms
Speaker 3: their personal journey into a powerful exploration of the ever
Speaker 3: widening ripples generated by Gasey's crimes from the nineteen seventies
Speaker 3: to the present day. His shadow extends beyond the victims,
Speaker 3: families and friends. It encompasses the displain's neighborhood, forever marked
Speaker 3: by his horrific murders, generations of the victims, families and friends,
Speaker 3: those who help the rest and convict him, fandom communities, and.
Speaker 2: Many others.
Speaker 3: Layered in thought provoking post Mortem is a complex story
Speaker 3: of loss and violence, grief and guilt, and the legacy
Speaker 3: that remains long after a killer is caught.
Speaker 2: The book they were.
Speaker 3: Featuring this evening is post Mortem What Survives the John
Speaker 3: Wayne Gacy Murders, With my special guest journalist and author,
Speaker 3: Courtney lund O'Neill. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 3: very much for this interview. Courtney lund O'Neill, thank you
Speaker 3: so much for having me, Thank you so much, and
Speaker 3: congratulations on this book, post Mortem. I know it's a
Speaker 3: long time coming.
Speaker 4: Yes, It was many years of research and sitting with
Speaker 4: this story, and I'm proud and I'm humbled, and I'm
Speaker 4: grateful that it is almost out in the world.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's go right back to nineteen seventy eight and
Speaker 3: explain your mother, Kim's Kim Buyer's involvement in this way
Speaker 3: before you were born. One summer day in nineteen seventy
Speaker 3: eight and Desplains, Illinois, Rob Peast walked into Nisson Pharmacy
Speaker 3: just about eight blocks from his home to pick up
Speaker 3: some milk. Tell us a little bit about the interaction
Speaker 3: and a little bit about your mother that day in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 4: Yes, it was a summer day before her senior year
Speaker 4: year of high school and before Rob's sophomore year. They're
Speaker 4: both going into their sophomore and senior year of high school,
Speaker 4: different high schools. Rob was at Maine West, my mom
Speaker 4: was at Maine North. And you know, this kid came
Speaker 4: in and he seemed nice and friendly, and there was
Speaker 4: a lot of turnover in the pharmacy, so she thought, hey,
Speaker 4: maybe maybe he might be a good coworker, and so
Speaker 4: she had him write down his information, and long story short,
Speaker 4: that he would end up working there because he really
Speaker 4: wanted to save money for some goals and dreams he had,
Speaker 4: and one of those was to save money for a car,
Speaker 4: so this would help jump start.
Speaker 5: Him doing that.
Speaker 4: And my mom has always been a very outgoing, friendly,
Speaker 4: warm person, can be a friend to anyone, and you know,
Speaker 4: for her, it was just like making a new friend,
Speaker 4: and she was really happy and excited to see that
Speaker 4: he would kind of join, you know, that family at
Speaker 4: Nisan pharmacy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's right that she became friends with Rob, but
Speaker 3: also another friend that worked at the pharmacy delivering named Nathan.
Speaker 3: So they were all interested in health and athletics, and
Speaker 3: they were both all of them.
Speaker 2: They were interested in gymnastics.
Speaker 4: Yes, they were all athletes and very very strong gymnasts.
Speaker 4: And you know, back then also gymnastics and cheer was
Speaker 4: viewed differently. It was, you know, males participated freely and
Speaker 4: different than today. I think things have changed in how
Speaker 4: we view kind of like kind of that musculature.
Speaker 5: Even my mom's.
Speaker 4: Boyfriend at the time, Corey, he did gymnastics, So it
Speaker 4: was it was a.
Speaker 5: Very popular sport. It helped keep you.
Speaker 4: Fit and flexible, and so yeah, it was it was fun.
Speaker 4: I think to be have a friend group based on
Speaker 4: kind of this love of being athletic and doing tricks
Speaker 4: and things like that. It's a unique sport for sure.
Speaker 3: Now you take us to December eleventh, nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 3: Him was working the five pm shift and Rob was
Speaker 3: supposed to come in a little bit after that. So
Speaker 3: tell us about the shift and what happens with Rob
Speaker 3: once he gets to the pharmacy. Give us as you
Speaker 3: write the details of what happens that early evening.
Speaker 4: Yeah, his mom brings him over to work, and it's
Speaker 4: just a regular kind of drop off for missus Peace
Speaker 4: and Rob Peace. And it begins as a regular shift.
Speaker 4: It's really cold this night in December, with an intense windshill,
Speaker 4: and you know, they're doing their regular type of pharmacy duties.
Speaker 4: Rob is stocking shelves, my mom is kind of working
Speaker 4: the counter. But during the shift, a couple important things happened.
Speaker 4: And the first thing is that my mom was very
Speaker 4: cold that night and she needed to borrow a jacket
Speaker 4: as this wind she'll whipped in through the front door.
Speaker 5: Of the pharmacy.
Speaker 4: And she had asked Rob if she could borrow his
Speaker 4: And you know, being a good friend, He's like, of
Speaker 4: course you can. You can borrow my jacket. So that's
Speaker 4: the first important thing of that night. And the second
Speaker 4: important thing is that my mom was developing some reprints
Speaker 4: from Homecoming, the Homecoming dance pictures of her and her
Speaker 4: boyfriend Corey, and she wanted to gift one to her
Speaker 4: sister for the upcoming Christmas holiday. So she fills out
Speaker 4: this form of you know, developing these images. And back
Speaker 4: in the day, I'm sure some listeners will remember, I
Speaker 4: remember myself that you had to write things down.
Speaker 5: You couldn't just.
Speaker 4: Go online and order some and have them be shipped
Speaker 4: your house, right, And so she had, you know, written
Speaker 4: this down and worn off the receipt, and she went
Speaker 4: to you know, dispose of the receipt and then had
Speaker 4: this feeling to save it. And she's thought a lot
Speaker 4: about that feeling over the years and decades after this
Speaker 4: this day, because why would she save the receipt.
Speaker 5: She didn't need to.
Speaker 4: She worked there, she could go get the pictures, but
Speaker 4: she slipped into the parka pocket and she thought, maybe
Speaker 4: you know, Rob might find it later and ask her
Speaker 4: about the pictures, because they also beyond gymnastics, shared an
Speaker 4: interest in photography, specifically nature photography and going out and
Speaker 4: taking pictures of elements in nature. But it was a
Speaker 4: combination of you know, this weird, intuitive, strange feeling to like,
Speaker 4: you know, stop in her tracks and put this receiat
Speaker 4: in the pocket, and then kind of that kind of
Speaker 4: logical part of the brain that says, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe Rob will find this. I think it was this
Speaker 4: combination of both of like this strong intuitive feeling paired
Speaker 4: with this kind of logical teenage brain moment of yeah,
Speaker 4: it would be fun for my friend to, you know,
Speaker 4: ask me about my pictures. So those two things are
Speaker 4: important because you know, as they're doing their shift, this
Speaker 4: contractor is in there and he is remodeling shelves for
Speaker 4: the pharmacy owners Larry and Phil tworfe. My mom had
Speaker 4: bumped into him a couple times that night. She felt
Speaker 4: like he just kind of was taking up space. He
Speaker 4: wasn't friendly, he didn't like say hi to her, and
Speaker 4: he was kind of nondescript, you know.
Speaker 5: But she was just like, who's this guy?
Speaker 4: And he would leave something in the pharmacy come back
Speaker 4: later that night, and that's when he would ask Rob
Speaker 4: to come outside talk about and possibly go sign new
Speaker 4: higher paperwork. And when Rob goes outside at the end
Speaker 4: of the night, you know, he takes his jacket back,
Speaker 4: which of course has that film re seat in it.
Speaker 4: That jacket travels back to John Wayne Gacy's house, and
Speaker 4: Rob disappears and is never seen again, essentially, and the
Speaker 4: case unfolds with this very dominant narrative of Caasey being
Speaker 4: this democratic citizen, this entrepreneur, someone that people can trust
Speaker 4: in the community, versus this seventeen year old girl who said, hey,
Speaker 4: my friend Rob went outside to speak with this contractor
Speaker 4: about this job and never came back. And Gasey immediately
Speaker 4: was saying, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about.
Speaker 4: She's this young girl. You know, authorities are going to
Speaker 4: trust me essentially as this kind of upstanding citizen, you know,
Speaker 4: so she felt powerless almost immediately within this kind of situation.
Speaker 4: Eventually that Racy would be found on Gaysey's property, proving
Speaker 4: that Rob was there, and then of course, you know,
Speaker 4: the rest of the case begins unfolding and other victor
Speaker 4: are found.
Speaker 3: You talk about that being one of the important things
Speaker 3: that happens in nineteen seventy eight with your mother is
Speaker 3: that she begins to write a diary and just to
Speaker 3: chronicle the whole year and everything that was coming up
Speaker 3: in that exciting new year for her. So you take
Speaker 3: us in the book to dis Planes in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 3: you call this chapter. You explain about that it had
Speaker 3: been about five years since you first began your excavation
Speaker 3: of displanes and its history, and tell us about this
Speaker 3: untraditional path that you went from and four years of
Speaker 3: researching and where you are in twenty twenty two with this.
Speaker 4: In twenty twenty two, I take kind of my big
Speaker 4: research trip back there and the book, my book post
Speaker 4: Mortem is a breeding narrative. So there's a strand that
Speaker 4: takes place in the past, you know, nineteen seventies to
Speaker 4: the nineteen eighties, and there's a strand that takes place
Speaker 4: in the present, which is twenty twenty two, my big
Speaker 4: research trip mostly and they kind of braid and the
Speaker 4: themes crossover in the timeline and places crossover in a
Speaker 4: way that is strategic to kind of give the reader
Speaker 4: a sense of place and time from how the past
Speaker 4: and present are so fluid and kind of speak together
Speaker 4: without us kind of knowing or be incognizant of it.
Speaker 4: And so in twenty twenty two, I'm back there in
Speaker 4: this space. I'm looking at some of the big places
Speaker 4: in the community where this kind of case unfolded, whether
Speaker 4: that be Gaycy's old lot where Nissan Pharmacy was, I
Speaker 4: go to downtown Chicago and meet with the prosecutor, Terry Sullivan.
Speaker 4: So for me, it's a trained creative nonfiction writer. You know,
Speaker 4: this is type of like immersion journalism. It could be
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of like a leg of literary journalism,
Speaker 4: but you kind of try to immerse yourself to kind
Speaker 4: of feel this sensive place and how it can inform
Speaker 4: a piece of writing. And so for me, it was
Speaker 4: really important to go back and not kind of just
Speaker 4: study this from the periphery or like I had my
Speaker 4: mom's diaries, like you said, which was so immersive, and
Speaker 4: I don't think this book would have ever come to
Speaker 4: be it on the good one, I would have written
Speaker 4: it without her diary because it felt so it's the
Speaker 4: heart of the book to me, because it's so raw
Speaker 4: and real, and that's she's representing this human experience that
Speaker 4: I think that we can all connect to in this
Speaker 4: really visceral way about what does it mean to be
Speaker 4: a seventeen year old girl going through, you know, being
Speaker 4: a prime witness and one of the most famous murder
Speaker 4: cases in American history. And it's heavy and there's a
Speaker 4: lot of questions to ask and a lot to dissect there.
Speaker 4: And so I wanted to go back to displaines. And
Speaker 4: my mom actually joined me for a bit of that
Speaker 4: trip back, and you know, we went to where her
Speaker 4: apartment was. And this helps me reimagine the nineteen seventy
Speaker 4: strand a lot better in the book, because I can
Speaker 4: think about, you know, what did it mean for authorities
Speaker 4: to knock on her door and tell her to watch out?
Speaker 4: You know, if she was telling the truth that Gacy
Speaker 4: had taken rob who knew if he had accomplices, and
Speaker 4: who knew if they would be after her next? Right,
Speaker 4: So going there and seeing the steps and seeing the
Speaker 4: front door she walked out of, looking at her bedroom window,
Speaker 4: this all helped this like raised the hair on my arms.
Speaker 4: I mean, just being in a place and putting a
Speaker 4: place to story was so so powerful to me, not
Speaker 4: just as a daughter, but as a researcher, a writer,
Speaker 4: a storyteller. Because I wanted to push myself to do
Speaker 4: the best job I could, and so I was really
Speaker 4: grateful to be able to spend time in this place.
Speaker 3: You write that you have some of the entries put
Speaker 3: in this book, and so she writes some very profound
Speaker 3: things right away in that diary. You write that she
Speaker 3: didn't even know till the next day that Rob hadn't
Speaker 3: come home. So she went to school and a counselor
Speaker 3: spoke to her. So she writes along the way this
Speaker 3: unfolding nightmare, but also all kinds of her feelings about
Speaker 3: everything that's surrounding this case, and then the reporters that
Speaker 3: soon come in order trying to get her to say something.
Speaker 3: So at this almost seventeen years old, this incredible experience
Speaker 3: that she underwent.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean life changing, life altering. I think
Speaker 4: there's no kind of ways something or someone can prepare
Speaker 4: you for what she experienced, you know, or for what
Speaker 4: these families or other friends of victims experienced.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: As a storyteller, I really wanted to go deep instead
Speaker 4: of wide, and so I feel like with my mom,
Speaker 4: as you know, a main character in the story, I
Speaker 4: could really really go deep and have one kind of experience,
Speaker 4: you know, tied with her friend Rob really illuminate a
Speaker 4: larger picture and how we can think about these horrific
Speaker 4: crimes in a new light, and how you know, survivors'
Speaker 4: stories are worth telling and they are worth paying attention
Speaker 4: to and to perhaps pivot, you know, attention from you know,
Speaker 4: John Wayne Gacy to other tenants of this story, because
Speaker 4: you know, as her daughter, I got kind of just
Speaker 4: tired of the media fascination with Gacy because as I
Speaker 4: studied him through my research and over the years, I mean,
Speaker 4: I feel like he's a boring person that did these
Speaker 4: really horrific things, and so that was really important. That's
Speaker 4: always been important for me in this story, I think.
Speaker 4: And so just thinking about all the ways my mom
Speaker 4: went through this and then her willingness and openness and
Speaker 4: readiness to tell this story, I think she was kind
Speaker 4: of tired of these stories too, and so we kind
Speaker 4: of met the really interesting space, you know, when I
Speaker 4: entered motherhood and you know, she's my mother, and we're like,
Speaker 4: how did the shape you're mother?
Speaker 5: And how did this shape your adulthood? How did this
Speaker 5: shape the.
Speaker 4: Rest of your teen years, your twenties and so on
Speaker 4: and so it became kind of this beautiful experience and
Speaker 4: how I got to meet my mother when she was
Speaker 4: a kid essentially right, she wasn't eighteen yet, and I
Speaker 4: don't think we all get to do that with our parents.
Speaker 4: So from all these different layers, I felt very grateful
Speaker 4: for this experience with her. To tell the story for
Speaker 4: the Whier culture, but also to get to know her
Speaker 4: on this really intimate level felt really special, and it
Speaker 4: bonded us in a really unique way.
Speaker 3: Let's es this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 3: these messages. Now when you finally got you write that
Speaker 3: in twoenty and seventeen, your mother was not so warm
Speaker 3: to the idea at all, and so there was an
Speaker 3: evolution of sorts in that coming to this project and
Speaker 3: helping you in the way she really did. But you
Speaker 3: talk about in twenty seventeen it was much different than
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two when you talk about those interviews that
Speaker 3: your mother granted you and all the conversations you had.
Speaker 2: But the official interview she.
Speaker 3: Talked about her reaction, how angry she was at first
Speaker 3: Gasey Gaysey denying that he had seen rob that night,
Speaker 3: and so that was her first anger in that she
Speaker 3: seemed to be treated by authorities. So you also talk
Speaker 3: about though, that she had her suspicions. And this is
Speaker 3: one of the important things that you spoke about was
Speaker 3: the reaction your mother had, and you later about the
Speaker 3: reaction from the brothers that were the owners of the
Speaker 3: pharmacy in their reaction to giving information out about what
Speaker 3: they considered their friend John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 5: I don't know what to say about that.
Speaker 4: I think that there was a lot of missteps that night,
Speaker 4: and one of them was perhaps withholding information for the
Speaker 4: Peace family and my mom and I really being there
Speaker 4: and reflecting back on everything, and we really, we really
Speaker 4: felt that was unfortunate. But then again, you know, she
Speaker 4: she shared with me like her own regrets, like why
Speaker 4: didn't I go after him? Right, there's this type there's
Speaker 4: a survivor's guilt, like how could we have done things differently?
Speaker 4: But in terms of like the brothers, I don't think
Speaker 4: at the time my mom knew like Gaycy had known them,
Speaker 4: because you know, she's just working there, right, But to
Speaker 4: learn perhaps later that you know, maybe at least one
Speaker 4: of them did, there was a lot to like take
Speaker 4: it and think about.
Speaker 3: You write the horror that your mother encountered when she
Speaker 3: went to work at Nissan Pharmacy. You talk about December
Speaker 3: thirtieth and all the reporters there and everybody yelling her
Speaker 3: name and asking her questions, and they're having to hide
Speaker 3: out in the back. Very dramatic encounter your mother had.
Speaker 4: I developed that scene based on the diary. So of course,
Speaker 4: like not that all the diary entries are in the book, right,
Speaker 4: some of them were used to recreate scenes that I
Speaker 4: would couldn't have known otherwise, Right, So that was based
Speaker 4: on an entry I had read. You know it is
Speaker 4: it is kind of horrifying to had to hide out
Speaker 4: from the media, and sort of circle back to your
Speaker 4: other question about her kind of being cold. Right, when
Speaker 4: I first start asking questions about this case, I think
Speaker 4: it's really easy to see why, Right, she had all
Speaker 4: of her power and voice stripped from her as a
Speaker 4: as a as a young woman, and why would you
Speaker 4: want to feel that way again, because it's not a
Speaker 4: good feeling. But I think she realized as her daughter.
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm not just some like a couch critic,
Speaker 4: like I have my PhD, professional training and writing and research,
Speaker 4: and you know I was someone that she could trust
Speaker 4: with the story as a daughter and storyteller. And you know,
Speaker 4: and she has read this book and she she loves it.
Speaker 4: And for me, that just that makes me really happy,
Speaker 4: you know, because I think if there's one person that
Speaker 4: I cared about who if they liked this book, it
Speaker 4: would be my mom. And so the fact that she
Speaker 4: does is means the world. So, yeah, it was important
Speaker 4: for me to always stay honest to the page Tod,
Speaker 4: never pretend like something else was going on to sugarcoat it. Right, Yes,
Speaker 4: like she was cold, but part of the unraveling of
Speaker 4: this story is to show the reader why, right, she
Speaker 4: was cold because she was treated like this as a
Speaker 4: seventeen year old. So telling this story actually gives her
Speaker 4: power and gives her a voice in a way that
Speaker 4: she never really was able to have it.
Speaker 3: Yes, you include some of these diary entries that are
Speaker 3: again very profound in the information and parted like the
Speaker 3: ongoing search for Rob. But then finally when Rob's body
Speaker 3: is found, how she gets notified and just her general
Speaker 3: feeling right after that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's it's sad, don't I Mean, I
Speaker 4: think she was like physically ill. I mean just the
Speaker 4: whole thing made her feel sick, and I think it
Speaker 4: would make anybody feel sick. It made me feel sick
Speaker 4: researching it. It's it's something that you never ever want
Speaker 4: to happen to anyone in the world, and especially someone
Speaker 4: that you know, and it happened in her life. I've
Speaker 4: really been interested in this idea of closure, and there's
Speaker 4: all these kind of steps in the justice system that
Speaker 4: makes people think like there is closure, but I don't
Speaker 4: think there's ever closure. And so that's something I've wrestled
Speaker 4: with in this case in other cases that I study,
Speaker 4: and I think the closure isn't real, like not completely.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, you can get make steps towards it,
Speaker 4: but I think remembrance and honoring is kind of what
Speaker 4: we can do, you know, to keep people living when
Speaker 4: their lives have been taken from them. And so I
Speaker 4: think part of her kind of part in this book
Speaker 4: and story is that, and to keep you know, her
Speaker 4: friend's legacy live and to try to kind of decenter Gaysey,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, in any way we can, even
Speaker 4: if it's kind of this microcosm, you know, shift away
Speaker 4: from him, not trying to like, you know, change everything
Speaker 4: in the world.
Speaker 5: Around.
Speaker 4: You know his story, but you know, if we could
Speaker 4: do one good thing, what could it be?
Speaker 5: And this was kind of that.
Speaker 3: You chronicle in this book, the interesting relationship that develops
Speaker 3: maybe it's a natural relationship that develops with the Peace family,
Speaker 3: and your mother finds this a very important outlet for
Speaker 3: her grief, and you chronicle all the things that happened
Speaker 3: with the family and right up to her testifying at
Speaker 3: trial against John Wayne Gacy, very very strong testimony.
Speaker 2: And again not all the time did.
Speaker 3: Your mother read revert to her diary for information to
Speaker 3: in part, but that there was these crucial times when
Speaker 3: she certainly did so.
Speaker 4: In writing her diary, she would like, well in December
Speaker 4: and kind of January nine, need seventy eight nine, need
Speaker 4: seventy nine. They were pretty much daily because there was
Speaker 4: a lot to try to keep track of and process
Speaker 4: in the moment as things are unfolding, as bodies are
Speaker 4: coming out from under the house, and you know, the
Speaker 4: media is at her doorstep, like you said, and then
Speaker 4: you know, like grief comes in waves and you get
Speaker 4: like a little prick and maybe there's a week or
Speaker 4: a month off, but especially approaching trial, like there's a
Speaker 4: chunk of time off because she's starting school as a
Speaker 4: university student. But they start back up again, like you said,
Speaker 4: when you know she is she gets her she's called
Speaker 4: to trial, and it's kind of like this way to
Speaker 4: kind of manage the unmanageable, right, this act of writing,
Speaker 4: and it's feels like the one power she had, right,
Speaker 4: you know, she doesn't know she can't change, but have
Speaker 4: her friend. She she can't always get authorities to listen
Speaker 4: to her, but she can keep track of this herself
Speaker 4: and her own words. And you keep calling you keep
Speaker 4: calling them profound, which I think is really interesting, you know,
Speaker 4: for a seventeen year old to have such profound thoughts
Speaker 4: and ideas. And I think that's kind of the beauty
Speaker 4: of journaling or keeping a diary during seasons of life's
Speaker 4: intense moments, because you can kind of find yourself in
Speaker 4: writing where you can't always in the chaos of the
Speaker 4: external world.
Speaker 3: So what I found so interesting was the that your
Speaker 3: mother was a very very strong witness testifying at the trial.
Speaker 3: In fact, I found it very interesting that there was
Speaker 3: no cross examination by the defense lawyer Sam Amaranti.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I found that interesting as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you find interesting about that, like, did you
Speaker 4: expect that.
Speaker 3: Well, normally they might not cross examine somebody much younger,
Speaker 3: they wouldn't cross examine someone so vigorously maybe, but being
Speaker 3: this key witness, I mean, even though their defense was insanity,
Speaker 3: I just found it strange that there was no cross examination.
Speaker 5: Mm hmmm, yes, yeah, no it did.
Speaker 4: And I just pulled open the book and I'm in
Speaker 4: that section right now and looking at it.
Speaker 5: And that took a lot for her to be up
Speaker 5: on that stand.
Speaker 4: And something that she's always told me was that, you know,
Speaker 4: she had to point out Gacy in that room, and
Speaker 4: there was an interesting moment of her of him not
Speaker 4: wanting to make eye contact with her, and you know,
Speaker 4: she kind of wanted him to make eye contact with
Speaker 4: her and say, hey, like do you remember me? Like
Speaker 4: here I am and I am telling these people the
Speaker 4: truth again and there's nothing that you can do now.
Speaker 4: And it seemed like a very coward move, I guess,
Speaker 4: to not look at her. And I always found that
Speaker 4: interesting about that scene.
Speaker 3: Yes, you just go on, and it speaks about it
Speaker 3: in the documentary, the Netflix documentary, just the performance of
Speaker 3: Bill Kunkle and the crawl space and the dramatic throwing
Speaker 3: of the photos through the crawl space, but that Gasey's
Speaker 3: only defense was that he was insane. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: very strong in the obvious definition of insanity with all
Speaker 3: the planning and deliberation, but that he was just psychotic.
Speaker 3: And so it was fairly hard, uphill battle for the
Speaker 3: defense to try to prove that he was not sane
Speaker 3: at the time of all these thirty three murders.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: It was uphell battle. But it was something you know,
Speaker 4: I had talked to Terry Sullivan in to and it
Speaker 4: was something that he was most afraid over because you know,
Speaker 4: like his friends had seen Gacy in the headlines and said, man,
Speaker 4: this guy is crazy, and Terry and you know, Terry
Speaker 4: Sullivan's like, oh god, you know what if the jury
Speaker 4: finds him crazy? And so it was it weighed on
Speaker 4: his heart as he went through this trial, and he
Speaker 4: told me that he didn't I don't think he knew
Speaker 4: that Kunkle was going to throw the photos, but he
Speaker 4: has always praised, you know, praised him, and that it
Speaker 4: was incredibly impressive to be in that room when that happened.
Speaker 4: It was incredibly emotional. The image, the vistual image of
Speaker 4: each photo of each victim moving through the crawl space
Speaker 4: like a lot of them had. So yeah, it wasn't
Speaker 4: uphol battle, but it was a real fear. I think
Speaker 4: that you know, it could have gone that way.
Speaker 2: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear
Speaker 2: these messages.
Speaker 3: Now, what was your mother's reaction after her testimony and
Speaker 3: then you offered the reaction when she heard of the
Speaker 3: sentence that the jury decided on.
Speaker 4: Well, I think there is a sense of grand relief
Speaker 4: that all of this was not for nothing, right that
Speaker 4: you know, she didn't fly here. All these people, all
Speaker 4: these mothers and you know, girlfriends, neighbors, all these people
Speaker 4: didn't come here, you know, to be on the stand
Speaker 4: and then you know, have him get off in some
Speaker 4: way like they felt like they had participated in something.
Speaker 4: And you know, nothing could bring back the people, the
Speaker 4: young men and boys that Casey's hook, you know, he
Speaker 4: took their lives, but they could try to bring some
Speaker 4: form of justice to them. And I think there was
Speaker 4: this kind of exhale because I felt I feel like
Speaker 4: there was a lot of like folding of one's breath
Speaker 4: during this because you know, nothing is guaranteed, and and
Speaker 4: after you know, he was found guilty and he you know,
Speaker 4: was going to be sentenced to death, my mom kind.
Speaker 5: Of checked out.
Speaker 4: She would get updates from her dad, who would remain
Speaker 4: in the area for years to come, and but she
Speaker 4: had to be able to live her to live her
Speaker 4: life and not let the case kind of like take
Speaker 4: her down with it, which it could have, she said
Speaker 4: to me very easily could have. And she felt like she,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of could honor Rob in a sense
Speaker 4: that way, you know, to try to live this life
Speaker 4: to her fullest, you know, because her friend couldn't you know,
Speaker 4: they were both there that night and one missing in
Speaker 4: one stayed.
Speaker 3: You say it was important, your mother said that it
Speaker 3: was important. A counselor named Tanner at the school gave
Speaker 3: her some great advice. You write about that advice that
Speaker 3: she took the heart.
Speaker 5: Yes, she will never forget.
Speaker 4: I mean he's probably past now, but mister Tanner was
Speaker 4: a school counselor at Main North High School no longer
Speaker 4: high school. A random aside and it was where the
Speaker 4: Breakfast Club was filmed. He pulled her out of class
Speaker 4: and was like, you know, you can be a victim
Speaker 4: to all of this and kind of gacy keeps his
Speaker 4: power that way, right if you are or you can
Speaker 4: find the good in this horrific dark situation and do
Speaker 4: something with it. So she has done that, and I
Speaker 4: mean she'll talk to anybody about mister Tanner, you know
Speaker 4: like this, this person. It's so profound how one conversation
Speaker 4: can kind of alter your life. And that's kind of
Speaker 4: the beauty of human connection in that way, is that
Speaker 4: you never know what you are going to get or
Speaker 4: give somebody right in this moment of helplessness and hopelessness,
Speaker 4: and she decided then, you know, it's a seventeen year girl.
Speaker 5: I can't be a victim to this.
Speaker 4: I cannot let it destroy my life because it is
Speaker 4: destroying my life. And mister Tanner, you know, taught her
Speaker 4: how to reframe everything. You know that this was one
Speaker 4: her one life too, and she needed to live it,
Speaker 4: she needed to continue living, and she devoted her She
Speaker 4: has devoted her life to a life of service, being
Speaker 4: a physician, join the US Army, and you know, being
Speaker 4: a mother, being a Girl Scout leader. She has always
Speaker 4: tried to be there for other people.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, when you talked about did you message Terry Sullivan,
Speaker 3: and you had first contacted him in twenty seventeen and
Speaker 3: he gave he offered you a copy of his book,
Speaker 3: Killer Clown, and you asked him the question because they
Speaker 3: chose to open the book with your mom's name, Kim Byers.
Speaker 3: And you met at a restaurant and you asked, why
Speaker 3: open with Kim Byers.
Speaker 2: What was his response?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was such a profound experience to
Speaker 4: see your mom's name in a book before I kind
Speaker 4: of knew everything. I think that has had an intense
Speaker 4: impact on me. And you know, Terry is such a
Speaker 4: he's a he's.
Speaker 5: A funny, funny guy.
Speaker 4: I enjoy conversations with him, and you know, he kind
Speaker 4: of made a joke that you know, he had a
Speaker 4: brilliant co author, but you know, he said, no, your
Speaker 4: mom was detrimental and she was absolutely crucial to bringing
Speaker 4: Gacy down. And so in that conversation, you know, he
Speaker 4: was able to share insight into what he remembered about
Speaker 4: her when she was seventeen, you know, how she was
Speaker 4: going to trial, how he helped prep prepare her. But
Speaker 4: how that you know, he spoke extensively about how that
Speaker 4: you know, receipt helped prove Rob was there. And then
Speaker 4: he also talks about, you know, the peace's perseverance of
Speaker 4: making sure that people knew that, you know, their son
Speaker 4: was not a runaway and that no one gave up
Speaker 4: on trying to find him.
Speaker 3: He was quite adamant that to recognize the crucial role
Speaker 3: that your mother had in this whole case and wanted
Speaker 3: her to know that he appreciated that that role, didn't me, Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. During our conversation, he talked so much about
Speaker 4: how he appreciated so many that took the stand and
Speaker 4: how he never forgot about them, and you know, my
Speaker 4: mom was one of them, and you know, he could,
Speaker 4: I think could sense the fear on her because it
Speaker 4: was scary to do all of this, and it was
Speaker 4: really interesting for me to listen from his perspective, kind
Speaker 4: of this person of authority but also the first person
Speaker 4: my mom trusts. Like even when I read the diary,
Speaker 4: she speaks warmly about Terry Sullivan, and you know, if
Speaker 4: it's someone else that you know, it's lukewarm or uncertain,
Speaker 4: but it seems like Terry Sullivan is the person that
Speaker 4: my mom was able to trust, and so that has
Speaker 4: always felt important to me in this story. And that's
Speaker 4: why I was so grateful for Terry and I to connect,
Speaker 4: because I was really interested in what he had to say.
Speaker 3: It was spoken about in the Netflix documentary, but you
Speaker 3: write about what Terry Sullivan had to say about the
Speaker 3: police considering anyone that was missing a runaway regardless.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was that was the fallback, that
Speaker 4: was the go to. That is how things operated during
Speaker 4: this time. And it was just sad but also maybe
Speaker 4: sometimes true, right, So it was like, how how did
Speaker 4: you figure out who wasn't a run away? But I mean,
Speaker 4: even if someone was a runaway, they still deserve to
Speaker 4: be found, you know.
Speaker 5: And so there's a lot.
Speaker 4: Of cast offing that happened during this time, which is
Speaker 4: which is unfortunate. And yeah, he has he always tells
Speaker 4: me he's done all of the things, all of the
Speaker 4: shows and the interviews, and he enjoys talking about it.
Speaker 4: And it was a time to It was not a
Speaker 4: good time to go missing as young a young man.
Speaker 5: For sure, you.
Speaker 3: Talk about your mother not following it extensively, but that
Speaker 3: Gaysey was in the news over the years, over the
Speaker 3: ensuing fourteen years and then again has to face the
Speaker 3: facts that Gaysey has executed, and so her reminiscing about
Speaker 3: what happened and her feelings in and around that time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was a really heavy day for
Speaker 4: a lot of reasons. I mean, you know, she's she
Speaker 4: doesn't really expressed her opinion on the death penalty. I
Speaker 4: don't really either, But the fact that he was gone,
Speaker 4: it was a different kind of exhale.
Speaker 3: Right that.
Speaker 4: You know, he can never like physically harm her or
Speaker 4: get her or you know, or anybody again. You know,
Speaker 4: we didn't have to hear his voice again. But the
Speaker 4: irony of all this is that we've continued to hear
Speaker 4: his voice all the time.
Speaker 5: We get tapes, we get all the things.
Speaker 4: Right, he has become this like mythic figure in American culture.
Speaker 4: And so even if you can like exhale that he's gone,
Speaker 4: well he hasn't really been gone.
Speaker 3: But Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now,
Speaker 3: let's get to this investigation that you undertake. Because you
Speaker 3: take photos, you go back to the places that are
Speaker 3: all important to this story. You visit these places with
Speaker 3: your mother, You meet some of the people that again
Speaker 3: have something to say about Rob and that day and
Speaker 3: the police investigation and displains, and then have some relationship
Speaker 3: to your mother, Kim, and to Rob tell us about
Speaker 3: some of these experiences on this incredible journey that you undertake.
Speaker 4: What I learned on this journey is that you know,
Speaker 4: six degrees of separation is more like one or two.
Speaker 4: That if you take the time to talk to somebody
Speaker 4: in that.
Speaker 5: Town, they may.
Speaker 4: Likely have a connection, or have a memory, or know
Speaker 4: someone who has a connection to this case. And it
Speaker 4: is worth listening to them and giving them space to
Speaker 4: talk and to honor whoever it is they want to
Speaker 4: talk about, who they mourn, who they miss, whose life
Speaker 4: was taken too soon. And I found that to be
Speaker 4: absolutely profound, and just in the time I was there,
Speaker 4: and I've even seen this, I know this conversation is
Speaker 4: not about online, but on TikTok, so many people write
Speaker 4: to me that they knew somebody who knew somebody, or
Speaker 4: they were friends with the sister of a victim. And
Speaker 4: it is profound the ripple facts this case has had
Speaker 4: on the people in this community and the country in
Speaker 4: many ways. You know, I'm writing about this and I
Speaker 4: live in California. You don't have to be in the
Speaker 4: epicenter to feel this or to care about this. And
Speaker 4: I've also learned that in my research as well.
Speaker 3: You talk about speaking with David Nelson that has a
Speaker 3: personal connection to this story, and also a book as
Speaker 3: well that you had read. Tell us about your experience
Speaker 3: and your conversations with David Nelson.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would consider David Nelson one of my
Speaker 4: good friends now, like a good write friend, but also
Speaker 4: just a friend that we talk a lot, you know,
Speaker 4: almost daily, just about writing or life. And I he
Speaker 4: had originally reached out to me when he was researching
Speaker 4: his book, Boys Under the House, and it's a book
Speaker 4: about the victims and the victims' families, and it's a wonderful,
Speaker 4: incredibly important book.
Speaker 5: And I had missed his email.
Speaker 4: It had slipped through my crack that like my email
Speaker 4: and box cracks, and so I didn't I didn't get
Speaker 4: to like be in like I didn't couldn't help him
Speaker 4: in his book, unfortunately. But I found when his book
Speaker 4: came out, I reached out to him, and so I
Speaker 4: did a piece for Split Lip magazine where I interviewed
Speaker 4: him about his book, and then we met in person
Speaker 4: when I did my research trip in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 4: you know, because there has been some places that he
Speaker 4: hadn't gone to that he said he would be really
Speaker 4: interested in going to. And so we spent time and
Speaker 4: dusk planes together. You know, these two people that care
Speaker 4: deeply about, you know, this case and the after effects
Speaker 4: of it. And I've always been really appreciative of his
Speaker 4: book because in a sense, I feel like our books
Speaker 4: are companion books.
Speaker 5: You know, he was.
Speaker 4: Able to kind of kind of go wide right victims
Speaker 4: and their families and that repal effects and I was
Speaker 4: able to go deep into this kind of like one
Speaker 4: victim in one friendship and kind of that. And so
Speaker 4: I'm just really proud of the work he has done
Speaker 4: and the advocacy has done for the victims in this case.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, he's a he's a good friend.
Speaker 3: We go back or you go back and talk about
Speaker 3: October twenty eighteen in Harper's Bizarre magazine and you did
Speaker 3: an interview with your mother and that sparked a lot
Speaker 3: of interest and some very nice response from people online,
Speaker 3: didn't it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it did.
Speaker 4: And I think that that interview was like, oh, there
Speaker 4: could be a book here. At the time, it was
Speaker 4: just an interview, because I think there was like a
Speaker 4: oh it was it was I think that got published
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, so that would have been close to
Speaker 4: the forty year anniversary. And so I had just been
Speaker 4: really kind of mourning and feeling like the loss of
Speaker 4: like these people and thinking about my mother and how
Speaker 4: she lived on despite all of this, and I just
Speaker 4: asked if she wanted to sit down, and at the time,
Speaker 4: I think Herberst Bizarre told me this would be their
Speaker 4: kind of first true crime feature, and but yeah, I
Speaker 4: got a lot of nice responses. You know, that people
Speaker 4: cared and people remembered, and it was kind of a
Speaker 4: new angle to this story that felt like it had
Speaker 4: only one angle, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3: You're right about that your mother had a bad experience
Speaker 3: with one of the you say in National True Crime Network,
Speaker 3: and so when Netflix emailed you about the possibility of
Speaker 3: being interviewed or your mom being interviewed, Kim being interviewed,
Speaker 3: she said no, And so you told them no, and
Speaker 3: then you told them maybe look at this from a
Speaker 3: different angle potentially, So tell us about her cooperation in
Speaker 3: the Netflix series and also what she felt or you
Speaker 3: felt afterwards after it all had been done.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 4: I think they know has been kind of the default
Speaker 4: because you don't know what people are going to do
Speaker 4: with your words, right, how you'll represented, and so it's
Speaker 4: easy to say no. But you know, they because they're
Speaker 4: reaching out. I think because the Harper's Bizarre, people will
Speaker 4: reach out now. I mean they started reaching out after that.
Speaker 4: That was the first piece I published on the case.
Speaker 4: You know, it's kind of like, oh, well, maybe it's Netflix,
Speaker 4: and you know, maybe they'll do a good job the
Speaker 4: I think radical Media.
Speaker 5: They do a lot of work.
Speaker 4: And research for Joe Berlinger, who I think the creator
Speaker 4: of it. So don't you know they were like, oh,
Speaker 4: let's talk, and so you know, just listening to them
Speaker 4: and you know, basically saying there's you know, I was
Speaker 4: kind of the point of contact because you know, my mom,
Speaker 4: you know, she doesn't want she doesn't.
Speaker 5: Know these people, so it's like why would she say yes?
Speaker 4: And you know, but then there was kind of thinking like, okay,
Speaker 4: well maybe this could be framed from a different way.
Speaker 4: And we had no idea that she was going to
Speaker 4: open the series. When we did, you know, I went
Speaker 4: to the interview with her. They sent a whole production
Speaker 4: team out to California and you know, we don't know
Speaker 4: like what they're going to do with your interview, and
Speaker 4: the fact that she opened it was really fascinating. It
Speaker 4: showed that they listened right to like our concerns. Like
Speaker 4: I mean, the middle of the series is you know,
Speaker 4: like the regular angle. We all kind of know, like
Speaker 4: this is Gaye's life. But it was nice and refreshing
Speaker 4: to see, you know, big creators like Joe Berland are
Speaker 4: opened to change and like seeing the case in a
Speaker 4: new way. I don't know if I would say like
Speaker 4: it carried through the whole series, but it was pleasant
Speaker 4: to see, and you know, you know, we were happy
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 3: I think it's a I would look at it as
Speaker 3: somewhat of a compromise because it really was supposed to
Speaker 3: be and it was the tapes themselves and the horrifying
Speaker 3: statements that come out of his mouth. I know that
Speaker 3: people witness it is extraordinary. Just to hear anything that
Speaker 3: person has to say, it's incredible. Let's talk about more
Speaker 3: about this project and your mother warming up to the
Speaker 3: idea and also the idea that how much and what
Speaker 3: you actually learned that your mother went through and what
Speaker 3: you said that just working on this project after you
Speaker 3: came back from the second trip, that it had changed
Speaker 3: you as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to think about.
Speaker 4: There was after I got back from this research trip,
Speaker 4: it was like like I felt like it in my
Speaker 4: body in many ways, like kind of this like kind
Speaker 4: of fear, like the ghosts of the story in this
Speaker 4: town and of Gacy, And you know, I was like
Speaker 4: a little jumpie, I would say, and I maybe reflect
Speaker 4: on my own mothering and you know, I'm the mother
Speaker 4: of boys, and what does that mean for someone that
Speaker 4: just spent so much time thinking about the worst case
Speaker 4: scenario of these young men? And it was very dark,
Speaker 4: and I had to really think about similar things my
Speaker 4: mom went through. Well how does this not overtake you?
Speaker 4: And so that was interesting to kind of sit with
Speaker 4: and think about and you know, think about what there
Speaker 4: is to learn from a case like this, right, Like
Speaker 4: how do how do we practice caution and and continue
Speaker 4: on with you know, your life to the best of
Speaker 4: your ability. Anyway, it's all about holding multiple truths in
Speaker 4: your hands, right, It's not just one truth like and
Speaker 4: so it's been it's been an interesting journey. It's been difficult,
Speaker 4: but it's just it's just a story that my mom
Speaker 4: lived through, and you know, my sisters and I have
Speaker 4: experienced through her, and so that has been interesting to
Speaker 4: dissect untangle.
Speaker 3: Your mother retained some of her strength. I think it
Speaker 3: seemed from this book in that she rationalized that there
Speaker 3: was some good that did happen from this keeping of
Speaker 3: the receipt, not throwing in that not keeping it in
Speaker 3: that garbage candidate she had thrown it in and having
Speaker 3: that incredible intuition somehow, not knowing what it would lead to,
Speaker 3: but that her role, somehow, along with Rob, stop this
Speaker 3: killer in his tracks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that is the main takeaway is that
Speaker 4: there he never killed again, and that is something that
Speaker 4: she has and I think a lot of people have
Speaker 4: taken away that have come to care about the case
Speaker 4: and the victims, is that.
Speaker 5: Gacy never went on to kill again.
Speaker 4: And you know, my mom was a piece of that
Speaker 4: puzzle and helping stop him, you know, as her daughter,
Speaker 4: I'm so proud of her because you know, I can't
Speaker 4: imagine if he had continued on, right, And.
Speaker 3: Your mother sees this book as also honoring the memory
Speaker 3: of her friend Rob at that time, obviously.
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, And you know when people passed in more
Speaker 4: decades passed, you know, it's easier and easier to forget.
Speaker 4: So part of this journey, and you know, I've done
Speaker 4: countless original interviews with her is you know, trying to
Speaker 4: figure out who he was as a person, as a friend,
Speaker 4: as a son, as an athlete, a photographer. And he
Speaker 4: has come to me so like alive, to me in
Speaker 4: many ways as this person that never deserved any of this.
Speaker 4: And we're speaking today on December eleventh, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 4: forty six years to the day of his disappearance.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: You know, like I felt, I was mourning him this morning,
Speaker 4: you know, feeling this incredible heavy sadness. And I have
Speaker 4: never met this person that I've felt very much like
Speaker 4: I have through my mom. And I hope that people
Speaker 4: can feel like through my mom they can meet him
Speaker 4: too and care about him more than they care about
Speaker 4: someone like Gacy.
Speaker 3: You're right, and Terry Sullivan said the same that as
Speaker 3: time goes on, you can't but think about the mothers
Speaker 3: of all these young men and boys.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean fathers too, but you know, the mothers.
Speaker 4: You know, Even Terry Silliville mentioned that the mother's taking
Speaker 4: the stand, and.
Speaker 5: How yeah, how heavy it was to watch.
Speaker 4: Them, and you know, hearing him talk about Elizabeth Peace
Speaker 4: taking the stand and you know, reading reading the transcript
Speaker 4: on that, that was a lot for me as a
Speaker 4: researcher and thinking about how the mothers had to live on.
Speaker 4: Even David Nelson and I have talked about the mothers
Speaker 4: and just thinking how unfair all of this was for them.
Speaker 4: And there's something so deeply special, you know, a mother
Speaker 4: child bond, and how the worst thing could happen to
Speaker 4: them to so many is it's it's unimaginable. It's it's
Speaker 4: really really sad. Think trying to honor them and in
Speaker 4: the parents of these children is important as well.
Speaker 3: As you write that this book is dedicated to the
Speaker 3: thirty three victims and obviously everyone that loved them and
Speaker 3: their families.
Speaker 4: Yes, I say to all the boys, because although this
Speaker 4: focus is on one, I know so many people have
Speaker 4: connections to this case. And you know, there's so many
Speaker 4: people I have yet to meet that have connections to
Speaker 4: this case, and they were all on my heart and mind.
Speaker 5: As I wrote this.
Speaker 4: Every step of this you know, after my research, when
Speaker 4: I hit the writing phase, lead with my heart and
Speaker 4: try to put my heart in the shoes of so
Speaker 4: many as I crafted this book, because you know, my
Speaker 4: intentions are to dedicate it to them, to stop focusing
Speaker 4: on John Wayne Gacy is this interesting person that painted
Speaker 4: you know, it's for me, It's never been that, and
Speaker 4: I hope that people can continue that on and find
Speaker 4: themselves in this story.
Speaker 3: One thing that is a little detour in this book,
Speaker 3: just to show your sense of anxiety in general, but
Speaker 3: never mind this event in twenty twenty three and you
Speaker 3: got a call from your son's school. Can you describe
Speaker 3: the feeling from that call?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was I mean, it was important for
Speaker 4: me to put a scene or two about how the
Speaker 4: case affected me, because it's one thing to say, oh,
Speaker 4: this case affected me, and it's another thing to show
Speaker 4: the reader. And so it was really important for me
Speaker 4: for the end of the book to show the reader
Speaker 4: a scene where this case took over me. Right, So
Speaker 4: I get a call They're like, your son is not
Speaker 4: at school, but he was dropped off at school. So
Speaker 4: my husband and I were like, what do you mean
Speaker 4: he's not at school?
Speaker 5: And so the.
Speaker 4: Feeling of dropping everything, jumping in the car race seemed
Speaker 4: to school, you know, thinking, oh my god, I remember
Speaker 4: exactly what he wore this day. Oh my goodness, I know,
Speaker 4: I know how he entered school, and all these kind
Speaker 4: of visual components of a day began to take over,
Speaker 4: and the real fear that, oh my god, did something
Speaker 4: terrible happen. Yeah, so that is in the book. And
Speaker 4: then of course the scene ends with you know, there
Speaker 4: was a clerical error and he was at school, but
Speaker 4: that feeling was one millions of what those parents felt,
Speaker 4: and that's terrible.
Speaker 3: There's so much in this book about the compassion and
Speaker 3: the strength that your mother has. Especially I found with
Speaker 3: the Peace family, keeping in contact with them, worrying about
Speaker 3: how they felt. Elizabeth Peat and her family and the
Speaker 3: two siblings. This incredible bond that she felt with this person,
Speaker 3: that these people that she couldn't really even feel with
Speaker 3: her own family as in comparison, and it was essential
Speaker 3: for her to maintain this relationship with the Peace family.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think I didn't realize the profound impact that,
Speaker 4: you know, the amount of visitation she did, the amount
Speaker 4: of communication she did, Like that's not any other you know,
Speaker 4: book on this case I've ever read. But then I
Speaker 4: read her tiring, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: that was a deep bond between them. You know, She's
Speaker 4: going there on Christmas, and you know whenever she can
Speaker 4: to sit with the siblings or Harold or Elizabeth Peace,
Speaker 4: and I mean just says so much of who she
Speaker 4: is as a person, but also how kind of bonded
Speaker 4: they were from this event. Yeah, it was a profound experience,
Speaker 4: you know, reading about it in her diary and then
Speaker 4: her telling me about about it, and you know, I
Speaker 4: just I'm just in awe of the person my mom
Speaker 4: was and who she continues to be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I want to thank you so much for coming
Speaker 3: on and talking about this extraordinary book, post Mortem What
Speaker 3: Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders. You say that the
Speaker 3: release date is due December twenty fourth, and as you
Speaker 3: mentioned we were talking almost in real time but forty
Speaker 3: years ago, that this story really is an unfortunate Christmas story,
Speaker 3: but thanks to the intuition and the heroics of your mother,
Speaker 3: this story at least ended with the stopping of one
Speaker 3: of the most infamous serial killers in world history.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 3: For those people that might want to refer to this case,
Speaker 3: can you refer them to a website or to any
Speaker 3: social media that you do.
Speaker 4: Yes, you can find me at Courtney lond O'Neill dot
Speaker 4: com and on TikTok or in Instagram at Courtney lund O'Neill.
Speaker 4: And there's a playlist on my TikTok called post Mortem
Speaker 4: where you can kind of see some behind the scenes
Speaker 4: and you can see some photos in connection.
Speaker 5: To this book.
Speaker 2: Well, that sounds great. Thank you so much, thank you, so.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for this interview post Mortem What
Speaker 3: Survives the John Wayne Gacy Murders with my guests. Thank
Speaker 3: you so much, Courtney lund O'Neill, Thank you for this interview.
Speaker 5: Good night, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you