WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.759 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:40.320 Good Evening. 8 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:46.159 On a December night in nineteen seventy eight, Courtney lond 9 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.399 O'Neill's mother, teenage Kim Byers, saw her friend Rob Piecete 10 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:55.799 alive for the last time at the end of his 11 00:00:55.880 --> 00:00:59.200 shift at the pharmacy where they both worked. Fifteen year 12 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.920 old Rob outside to speak to a contractor named John 13 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.799 Wayne Gacy about a possible job. 14 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:08.840 That night, Rob. 15 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:13.000 Became Gasey's final victim. His body was later found in 16 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:18.439 the Splains River. Kim's testimony, along with a receipt belonging 17 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.920 to her, found in Gasey's house, proving that Rob had 18 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:25.840 been there, would be pivotal in convicting the serial killer 19 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.000 who assaulted and killed over thirty young men and boys. 20 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:34.879 Though she grew up far from Displains, Courtney has lived 21 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.159 in the shadow of that nightmare keenly aware of its 22 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:43.359 impact on her mother. In search of deeper understanding enclosure, 23 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:49.640 Courtney and Kim travel back to Illinois. Post Mortem transforms 24 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:53.840 their personal journey into a powerful exploration of the ever 25 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:59.719 widening ripples generated by Gasey's crimes from the nineteen seventies 26 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:03.719 to the present day. His shadow extends beyond the victims, 27 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:09.800 families and friends. It encompasses the displain's neighborhood, forever marked 28 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:15.000 by his horrific murders, generations of the victims, families and friends, 29 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:21.000 those who help the rest and convict him, fandom communities, and. 30 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:21.960 Many others. 31 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:28.039 Layered in thought provoking post Mortem is a complex story 32 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:32.639 of loss and violence, grief and guilt, and the legacy 33 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.879 that remains long after a killer is caught. 34 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:37.719 The book they were. 35 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:42.280 Featuring this evening is post Mortem What Survives the John 36 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:47.599 Wayne Gacy Murders, With my special guest journalist and author, 37 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:53.080 Courtney lund O'Neill. Welcome to the program, and thank you 38 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.360 very much for this interview. Courtney lund O'Neill, thank you 39 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.319 so much for having me, Thank you so much, and 40 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.360 congratulations on this book, post Mortem. I know it's a 41 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:06.680 long time coming. 42 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.719 Yes, It was many years of research and sitting with 43 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:16.000 this story, and I'm proud and I'm humbled, and I'm 44 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.280 grateful that it is almost out in the world. 45 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:19.560 Yes. 46 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:25.759 Absolutely, let's go right back to nineteen seventy eight and 47 00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:32.400 explain your mother, Kim's Kim Buyer's involvement in this way 48 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.400 before you were born. One summer day in nineteen seventy 49 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:42.319 eight and Desplains, Illinois, Rob Peast walked into Nisson Pharmacy 50 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:45.360 just about eight blocks from his home to pick up 51 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:49.520 some milk. Tell us a little bit about the interaction 52 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.520 and a little bit about your mother that day in 53 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:54.599 nineteen seventy eight. 54 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:00.000 Yes, it was a summer day before her senior year 55 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.159 year of high school and before Rob's sophomore year. They're 56 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:06.759 both going into their sophomore and senior year of high school, 57 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.039 different high schools. Rob was at Maine West, my mom 58 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:14.439 was at Maine North. And you know, this kid came 59 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.600 in and he seemed nice and friendly, and there was 60 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.800 a lot of turnover in the pharmacy, so she thought, hey, 61 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.720 maybe maybe he might be a good coworker, and so 62 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.199 she had him write down his information, and long story short, 63 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.279 that he would end up working there because he really 64 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.279 wanted to save money for some goals and dreams he had, 65 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:37.040 and one of those was to save money for a car, 66 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:38.639 so this would help jump start. 67 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:39.079 Him doing that. 68 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:44.000 And my mom has always been a very outgoing, friendly, 69 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:48.639 warm person, can be a friend to anyone, and you know, 70 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.120 for her, it was just like making a new friend, 71 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.000 and she was really happy and excited to see that 72 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.000 he would kind of join, you know, that family at 73 00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:59.079 Nisan pharmacy. 74 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:05.279 Yeah, she's right that she became friends with Rob, but 75 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.319 also another friend that worked at the pharmacy delivering named Nathan. 76 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:13.360 So they were all interested in health and athletics, and 77 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:14.560 they were both all of them. 78 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:16.360 They were interested in gymnastics. 79 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:23.800 Yes, they were all athletes and very very strong gymnasts. 80 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:29.000 And you know, back then also gymnastics and cheer was 81 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:33.079 viewed differently. It was, you know, males participated freely and 82 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:35.839 different than today. I think things have changed in how 83 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.079 we view kind of like kind of that musculature. 84 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:39.600 Even my mom's. 85 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.800 Boyfriend at the time, Corey, he did gymnastics, So it 86 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:43.160 was it was a. 87 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:45.959 Very popular sport. It helped keep you. 88 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.759 Fit and flexible, and so yeah, it was it was fun. 89 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:53.920 I think to be have a friend group based on 90 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:58.600 kind of this love of being athletic and doing tricks 91 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.600 and things like that. It's a unique sport for sure. 92 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.920 Now you take us to December eleventh, nineteen seventy eight. 93 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.920 Him was working the five pm shift and Rob was 94 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.279 supposed to come in a little bit after that. So 95 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.800 tell us about the shift and what happens with Rob 96 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.519 once he gets to the pharmacy. Give us as you 97 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.680 write the details of what happens that early evening. 98 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:28.879 Yeah, his mom brings him over to work, and it's 99 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.279 just a regular kind of drop off for missus Peace 100 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.000 and Rob Peace. And it begins as a regular shift. 101 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:40.360 It's really cold this night in December, with an intense windshill, 102 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:45.439 and you know, they're doing their regular type of pharmacy duties. 103 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:49.399 Rob is stocking shelves, my mom is kind of working 104 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:54.879 the counter. But during the shift, a couple important things happened. 105 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.000 And the first thing is that my mom was very 106 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:02.439 cold that night and she needed to borrow a jacket 107 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.560 as this wind she'll whipped in through the front door. 108 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:06.160 Of the pharmacy. 109 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.160 And she had asked Rob if she could borrow his 110 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:11.439 And you know, being a good friend, He's like, of 111 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:13.759 course you can. You can borrow my jacket. So that's 112 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:16.279 the first important thing of that night. And the second 113 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:20.279 important thing is that my mom was developing some reprints 114 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:25.480 from Homecoming, the Homecoming dance pictures of her and her 115 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.519 boyfriend Corey, and she wanted to gift one to her 116 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:35.680 sister for the upcoming Christmas holiday. So she fills out 117 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:40.240 this form of you know, developing these images. And back 118 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.680 in the day, I'm sure some listeners will remember, I 119 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.079 remember myself that you had to write things down. 120 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:45.800 You couldn't just. 121 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.000 Go online and order some and have them be shipped 122 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.360 your house, right, And so she had, you know, written 123 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:54.240 this down and worn off the receipt, and she went 124 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:56.800 to you know, dispose of the receipt and then had 125 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:00.959 this feeling to save it. And she's thought a lot 126 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.199 about that feeling over the years and decades after this 127 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:07.800 this day, because why would she save the receipt. 128 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:08.480 She didn't need to. 129 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:11.360 She worked there, she could go get the pictures, but 130 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.000 she slipped into the parka pocket and she thought, maybe 131 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.399 you know, Rob might find it later and ask her 132 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.480 about the pictures, because they also beyond gymnastics, shared an 133 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:26.160 interest in photography, specifically nature photography and going out and 134 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:30.959 taking pictures of elements in nature. But it was a 135 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:36.159 combination of you know, this weird, intuitive, strange feeling to like, 136 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:38.879 you know, stop in her tracks and put this receiat 137 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:40.679 in the pocket, and then kind of that kind of 138 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:44.120 logical part of the brain that says, oh, well, you know, 139 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:45.960 maybe Rob will find this. I think it was this 140 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:49.360 combination of both of like this strong intuitive feeling paired 141 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.679 with this kind of logical teenage brain moment of yeah, 142 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:55.159 it would be fun for my friend to, you know, 143 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.759 ask me about my pictures. So those two things are 144 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.759 important because you know, as they're doing their shift, this 145 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.240 contractor is in there and he is remodeling shelves for 146 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:11.000 the pharmacy owners Larry and Phil tworfe. My mom had 147 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.039 bumped into him a couple times that night. She felt 148 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:16.679 like he just kind of was taking up space. He 149 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.000 wasn't friendly, he didn't like say hi to her, and 150 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:21.919 he was kind of nondescript, you know. 151 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:23.720 But she was just like, who's this guy? 152 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.639 And he would leave something in the pharmacy come back 153 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.279 later that night, and that's when he would ask Rob 154 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:36.000 to come outside talk about and possibly go sign new 155 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.639 higher paperwork. And when Rob goes outside at the end 156 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:41.720 of the night, you know, he takes his jacket back, 157 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:43.639 which of course has that film re seat in it. 158 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:48.799 That jacket travels back to John Wayne Gacy's house, and 159 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:54.039 Rob disappears and is never seen again, essentially, and the 160 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:59.039 case unfolds with this very dominant narrative of Caasey being 161 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:04.440 this democratic citizen, this entrepreneur, someone that people can trust 162 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:09.240 in the community, versus this seventeen year old girl who said, hey, 163 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.080 my friend Rob went outside to speak with this contractor 164 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:16.559 about this job and never came back. And Gasey immediately 165 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:18.519 was saying, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about. 166 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.960 She's this young girl. You know, authorities are going to 167 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:26.200 trust me essentially as this kind of upstanding citizen, you know, 168 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.279 so she felt powerless almost immediately within this kind of situation. 169 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:36.759 Eventually that Racy would be found on Gaysey's property, proving 170 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:40.720 that Rob was there, and then of course, you know, 171 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:43.879 the rest of the case begins unfolding and other victor 172 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:44.399 are found. 173 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:49.399 You talk about that being one of the important things 174 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.559 that happens in nineteen seventy eight with your mother is 175 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.399 that she begins to write a diary and just to 176 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.759 chronicle the whole year and everything that was coming up 177 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.759 in that exciting new year for her. So you take 178 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:10.399 us in the book to dis Planes in twenty twenty two, 179 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:15.159 you call this chapter. You explain about that it had 180 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:19.519 been about five years since you first began your excavation 181 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.799 of displanes and its history, and tell us about this 182 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:30.279 untraditional path that you went from and four years of 183 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:36.120 researching and where you are in twenty twenty two with this. 184 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:40.639 In twenty twenty two, I take kind of my big 185 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.360 research trip back there and the book, my book post 186 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.080 Mortem is a breeding narrative. So there's a strand that 187 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.639 takes place in the past, you know, nineteen seventies to 188 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:53.240 the nineteen eighties, and there's a strand that takes place 189 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.159 in the present, which is twenty twenty two, my big 190 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.159 research trip mostly and they kind of braid and the 191 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.600 themes crossover in the timeline and places crossover in a 192 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:04.919 way that is strategic to kind of give the reader 193 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.279 a sense of place and time from how the past 194 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:10.879 and present are so fluid and kind of speak together 195 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.919 without us kind of knowing or be incognizant of it. 196 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.080 And so in twenty twenty two, I'm back there in 197 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.080 this space. I'm looking at some of the big places 198 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.799 in the community where this kind of case unfolded, whether 199 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.279 that be Gaycy's old lot where Nissan Pharmacy was, I 200 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.159 go to downtown Chicago and meet with the prosecutor, Terry Sullivan. 201 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:38.759 So for me, it's a trained creative nonfiction writer. You know, 202 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:41.279 this is type of like immersion journalism. It could be 203 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.039 you know, it's kind of like a leg of literary journalism, 204 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:45.840 but you kind of try to immerse yourself to kind 205 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.919 of feel this sensive place and how it can inform 206 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.120 a piece of writing. And so for me, it was 207 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:53.279 really important to go back and not kind of just 208 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.440 study this from the periphery or like I had my 209 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.600 mom's diaries, like you said, which was so immersive, and 210 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:00.639 I don't think this book would have ever come to 211 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:02.720 be it on the good one, I would have written 212 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.519 it without her diary because it felt so it's the 213 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:12.279 heart of the book to me, because it's so raw 214 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.759 and real, and that's she's representing this human experience that 215 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:19.000 I think that we can all connect to in this 216 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.120 really visceral way about what does it mean to be 217 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:27.320 a seventeen year old girl going through, you know, being 218 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:29.399 a prime witness and one of the most famous murder 219 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.519 cases in American history. And it's heavy and there's a 220 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:35.200 lot of questions to ask and a lot to dissect there. 221 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:38.159 And so I wanted to go back to displaines. And 222 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.480 my mom actually joined me for a bit of that 223 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.039 trip back, and you know, we went to where her 224 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:48.200 apartment was. And this helps me reimagine the nineteen seventy 225 00:13:48.279 --> 00:13:51.039 strand a lot better in the book, because I can 226 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:53.639 think about, you know, what did it mean for authorities 227 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.279 to knock on her door and tell her to watch out? 228 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.399 You know, if she was telling the truth that Gacy 229 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.120 had taken rob who knew if he had accomplices, and 230 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.360 who knew if they would be after her next? Right, 231 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.279 So going there and seeing the steps and seeing the 232 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:10.240 front door she walked out of, looking at her bedroom window, 233 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:14.440 this all helped this like raised the hair on my arms. 234 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:17.279 I mean, just being in a place and putting a 235 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:22.200 place to story was so so powerful to me, not 236 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.000 just as a daughter, but as a researcher, a writer, 237 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.519 a storyteller. Because I wanted to push myself to do 238 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.200 the best job I could, and so I was really 239 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.679 grateful to be able to spend time in this place. 240 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.120 You write that you have some of the entries put 241 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.399 in this book, and so she writes some very profound 242 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:48.440 things right away in that diary. You write that she 243 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.519 didn't even know till the next day that Rob hadn't 244 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.120 come home. So she went to school and a counselor 245 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:58.279 spoke to her. So she writes along the way this 246 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:04.360 unfolding nightmare, but also all kinds of her feelings about 247 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:08.679 everything that's surrounding this case, and then the reporters that 248 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:13.519 soon come in order trying to get her to say something. 249 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:19.639 So at this almost seventeen years old, this incredible experience 250 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:21.519 that she underwent. 251 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:28.279 Yeah, yeah, I mean life changing, life altering. I think 252 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.279 there's no kind of ways something or someone can prepare 253 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:36.480 you for what she experienced, you know, or for what 254 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:40.679 these families or other friends of victims experienced. 255 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:41.399 You know. 256 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.120 As a storyteller, I really wanted to go deep instead 257 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.759 of wide, and so I feel like with my mom, 258 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:50.799 as you know, a main character in the story, I 259 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:56.080 could really really go deep and have one kind of experience, 260 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:58.960 you know, tied with her friend Rob really illuminate a 261 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:03.960 larger picture and how we can think about these horrific 262 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:09.720 crimes in a new light, and how you know, survivors' 263 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:14.240 stories are worth telling and they are worth paying attention 264 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:20.200 to and to perhaps pivot, you know, attention from you know, 265 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:25.720 John Wayne Gacy to other tenants of this story, because 266 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.200 you know, as her daughter, I got kind of just 267 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:32.519 tired of the media fascination with Gacy because as I 268 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:36.279 studied him through my research and over the years, I mean, 269 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.960 I feel like he's a boring person that did these 270 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.720 really horrific things, and so that was really important. That's 271 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.120 always been important for me in this story, I think. 272 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:49.000 And so just thinking about all the ways my mom 273 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.200 went through this and then her willingness and openness and 274 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.679 readiness to tell this story, I think she was kind 275 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:56.840 of tired of these stories too, and so we kind 276 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.480 of met the really interesting space, you know, when I 277 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.039 entered motherhood and you know, she's my mother, and we're like, 278 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:04.759 how did the shape you're mother? 279 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.000 And how did this shape your adulthood? How did this 280 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:08.000 shape the. 281 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.000 Rest of your teen years, your twenties and so on 282 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.759 and so it became kind of this beautiful experience and 283 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:17.839 how I got to meet my mother when she was 284 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.440 a kid essentially right, she wasn't eighteen yet, and I 285 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.559 don't think we all get to do that with our parents. 286 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:29.039 So from all these different layers, I felt very grateful 287 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.799 for this experience with her. To tell the story for 288 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.160 the Whier culture, but also to get to know her 289 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:40.000 on this really intimate level felt really special, and it 290 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.400 bonded us in a really unique way. 291 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.839 Let's es this as an opportunity to stop to hear 292 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:50.480 these messages. Now when you finally got you write that 293 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:54.200 in twoenty and seventeen, your mother was not so warm 294 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.799 to the idea at all, and so there was an 295 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:03.319 evolution of sorts in that coming to this project and 296 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.559 helping you in the way she really did. But you 297 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.079 talk about in twenty seventeen it was much different than 298 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:13.000 twenty twenty two when you talk about those interviews that 299 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.440 your mother granted you and all the conversations you had. 300 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.640 But the official interview she. 301 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:24.279 Talked about her reaction, how angry she was at first 302 00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:28.359 Gasey Gaysey denying that he had seen rob that night, 303 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.839 and so that was her first anger in that she 304 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.599 seemed to be treated by authorities. So you also talk 305 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:39.720 about though, that she had her suspicions. And this is 306 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.960 one of the important things that you spoke about was 307 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:48.359 the reaction your mother had, and you later about the 308 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.440 reaction from the brothers that were the owners of the 309 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.559 pharmacy in their reaction to giving information out about what 310 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:58.799 they considered their friend John Wayne Gacy. 311 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:01.400 I don't know what to say about that. 312 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.359 I think that there was a lot of missteps that night, 313 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.480 and one of them was perhaps withholding information for the 314 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.920 Peace family and my mom and I really being there 315 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.079 and reflecting back on everything, and we really, we really 316 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.319 felt that was unfortunate. But then again, you know, she 317 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.079 she shared with me like her own regrets, like why 318 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:24.160 didn't I go after him? Right, there's this type there's 319 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.960 a survivor's guilt, like how could we have done things differently? 320 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.279 But in terms of like the brothers, I don't think 321 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.359 at the time my mom knew like Gaycy had known them, 322 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.119 because you know, she's just working there, right, But to 323 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.599 learn perhaps later that you know, maybe at least one 324 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:41.799 of them did, there was a lot to like take 325 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:42.599 it and think about. 326 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.759 You write the horror that your mother encountered when she 327 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:52.359 went to work at Nissan Pharmacy. You talk about December 328 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.559 thirtieth and all the reporters there and everybody yelling her 329 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:57.839 name and asking her questions, and they're having to hide 330 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.920 out in the back. Very dramatic encounter your mother had. 331 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.039 I developed that scene based on the diary. So of course, 332 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.319 like not that all the diary entries are in the book, right, 333 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.880 some of them were used to recreate scenes that I 334 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:15.599 would couldn't have known otherwise, Right, So that was based 335 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.640 on an entry I had read. You know it is 336 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.839 it is kind of horrifying to had to hide out 337 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.359 from the media, and sort of circle back to your 338 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.519 other question about her kind of being cold. Right, when 339 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.160 I first start asking questions about this case, I think 340 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.160 it's really easy to see why, Right, she had all 341 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.440 of her power and voice stripped from her as a 342 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.079 as a as a young woman, and why would you 343 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.920 want to feel that way again, because it's not a 344 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:45.440 good feeling. But I think she realized as her daughter. 345 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.759 And you know, I'm not just some like a couch critic, 346 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.799 like I have my PhD, professional training and writing and research, 347 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.079 and you know I was someone that she could trust 348 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.680 with the story as a daughter and storyteller. And you know, 349 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.880 and she has read this book and she she loves it. 350 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:06.599 And for me, that just that makes me really happy, 351 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.160 you know, because I think if there's one person that 352 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:11.960 I cared about who if they liked this book, it 353 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.960 would be my mom. And so the fact that she 354 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:17.319 does is means the world. So, yeah, it was important 355 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.400 for me to always stay honest to the page Tod, 356 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.559 never pretend like something else was going on to sugarcoat it. Right, Yes, 357 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.160 like she was cold, but part of the unraveling of 358 00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:28.519 this story is to show the reader why, right, she 359 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.599 was cold because she was treated like this as a 360 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.599 seventeen year old. So telling this story actually gives her 361 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:37.319 power and gives her a voice in a way that 362 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:39.680 she never really was able to have it. 363 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.160 Yes, you include some of these diary entries that are 364 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:49.519 again very profound in the information and parted like the 365 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.640 ongoing search for Rob. But then finally when Rob's body 366 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.400 is found, how she gets notified and just her general 367 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.920 feeling right after that. 368 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:06.759 Yeah, I mean it's it's sad, don't I Mean, I 369 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:09.960 think she was like physically ill. I mean just the 370 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.200 whole thing made her feel sick, and I think it 371 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.599 would make anybody feel sick. It made me feel sick 372 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.039 researching it. It's it's something that you never ever want 373 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.839 to happen to anyone in the world, and especially someone 374 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:25.000 that you know, and it happened in her life. I've 375 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.559 really been interested in this idea of closure, and there's 376 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:30.960 all these kind of steps in the justice system that 377 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.480 makes people think like there is closure, but I don't 378 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.079 think there's ever closure. And so that's something I've wrestled 379 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.359 with in this case in other cases that I study, 380 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:46.200 and I think the closure isn't real, like not completely. 381 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.680 I think, you know, you can get make steps towards it, 382 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:54.359 but I think remembrance and honoring is kind of what 383 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.759 we can do, you know, to keep people living when 384 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.960 their lives have been taken from them. And so I 385 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.079 think part of her kind of part in this book 386 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.440 and story is that, and to keep you know, her 387 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:12.920 friend's legacy live and to try to kind of decenter Gaysey, 388 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.799 you know, you know, in any way we can, even 389 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.680 if it's kind of this microcosm, you know, shift away 390 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.480 from him, not trying to like, you know, change everything 391 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:21.960 in the world. 392 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:22.359 Around. 393 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.279 You know his story, but you know, if we could 394 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:26.359 do one good thing, what could it be? 395 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:28.839 And this was kind of that. 396 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:35.079 You chronicle in this book, the interesting relationship that develops 397 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.799 maybe it's a natural relationship that develops with the Peace family, 398 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:44.039 and your mother finds this a very important outlet for 399 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.279 her grief, and you chronicle all the things that happened 400 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.960 with the family and right up to her testifying at 401 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.880