Speaker 1: What is up fell Siico's I'm Dan Valley coming at
you with Grant Hughes, and we are back for.
Speaker 2: Another round of we're just asking questions.
Speaker 1: He can't be held responsible when we give that disclaimer
for what we're about to discuss. And we're about to
discuss LaMelo Ball in his future with the Charlotte Hornets,
which I feel like is a frequent topic around the
NBA Grant, but not so much for this podcast, because
I've been very stubborn in my belief that the Hornet
should absolutely just hold on to LaMelo Ball and he
will probably figure it out, or he's their best chance
of having a tempole cornerstone. But I think with the
emergence of Conkin Nipple Seon James Ryan Kulkbrenner, the way
they've played without him, he's also injured again as we're
recording this, and more right, ankle stuff. Brandon Miller by
the way, dealing with shoulder stuff as we record this.
That's someone else who's injured. We have to ask the question,
what does LaMelo Ball mean to the Charlotte Hornets at
this point, And.
Speaker 3: Like baked into that is very much the acknowledgment of
We've kind of been asking some version of it for
at least the last two years, and it just basically
since the injuries have persisted, and really even before the
injuries were an issue, because he's such an interesting player
where it's like, I don't know, he kind of might
be the guy that lifts an offense by himself, like
there's some numbers to support that. Oh, but then remember
the discussion was, but I don't know. Yeah, he makes
the offense way better, but the level he raises it
to isn't enough. And then the counter was, and we
brought this up. You have been all over this, like,
look at the shooting that has surrounded him, it's been awful.
Like a primary distributor like him needs someone to make shots.
So it's just been kind of an open question for
almost his whole career. To me, the reason it's different
now is because the Hornets as an organization have made
moves that suggests they know what they're doing, that they're
willing to be patient, that they can identify talent, and
just the results of that is there are more bright
spots on this year's team, especially among the rookie class,
than there have been a kind of I don't know
most of Ball's tenure, right, so there's some new circumstances.
The constant, though, is LaMelo Ball has good numbers and
juices the offense and is hurt. So it's kind of
like we're in the same place, but there are some
key differences, right, So maybe the place to start is
just to answer that question, like what is the rookie
class and Charlotte's behavior in particular over the last couple
of years since the new ownership and management structure took power.
How does that change the LaMelo Ball discussion.
Speaker 1: I'm actually wondering if it it changed, I think what
else should change it? So my answer would be I
don't know that it should because when you're looking at
the talent that is still there is Brendon Miller has
not been at Billboard for Excellent Health of late either,
and so you're looking at they As we record this,
there have been one hundred and seventy five Hornets games
since Brandon Miller entered the NBA. LaMelo Ball and Brandon
Miller have appeared in forty one games together.
Speaker 2: That's we're in season three. That is absurdly low.
Speaker 1: When you also look at LaMelo He's missed fifty seven
percent of Charlotte's games since twenty twenty two, so he's
played fewer than half of their games, and for his
career at this point, he's averaging over thirty eight absences
per season, And so to me, I think that would
be the only impetus for changing the discussion, because Miller
hasn't like can you sit here and say Miller is
definitely cornerstone material.
Speaker 2: We like Coon Kineppo. We just recorded a whole thing
on him.
Speaker 1: Go check out the that episode. Do you view him
as just a tent pole guy. I'm still at the
point for Charlotte to where I would go if not LaMelo,
then who That's problematic only because LaMelo Ball has missed
so much time and the results have been so like
could he be more efficient? And there are things that
we just have to accept to where we I'd like
to see him play with this supporting cast even more
than we've been able to see thus far. But you
also have to accept his flaws to where it's he'll
probably do just enough on defense. Everyone want to make
you believe that he could be better or less rigid
on that end, He'll probably follow through on his drives
enough get to the basket for clips at a time
you think, oh this is the year, but nothing just
might ever come of it. His rim frequency always seems
like it's gonna be not as high as you want
it to be. Yeah, but I keep coming back to,
all right, we don't have enough information on LaMelo ball,
And so the question becomes will you ever get enough
information on LaMelo ball? And if you're not gonna get
any more information, what would your decision be based on
the information that you have right now? It becomes so
much harder to answer that because I don't think anyone
around him has done enough or will do enough. When
you're looking at Conk Nipple, I just don't think he's
that guy to where you're saying, well, that is the
direction of our franchise, and I think at this point
it would be injuries you're worried about his health, or
you're sitting here saying we think he's going to impede
the growth of this team overall, which I I don't
know that I buy into that either.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that is another sort of constant here, which
is that so LaMelo has been subject to he's unseerious
like as a criticism, right, and like maybe that as
a cultural thing within your team and as just like
you on the court, maybe you can't build a real
defense or maybe you can't have a disciplined offense with
him involved. But I don't think anyone has ever really serious,
No one's no serious critic has ever said like, well,
I think he's in the way of other players just
because like what he wants to do. Yeah, he's gonna
take a lot of threes and stuff, and he'll take
some wild shots, but like he is a good passer
with really creative vision, and like is the type of
guy that lifts other players in a lot of ways,
and we haven't seen that just because the guys around
have him not been capable of making good on a
lot of his setups. And who knows he might play
differently if there were like just dead eye shooting threats
and elite role guys for him to facilitate for. So, like,
I I do feel confident in if you're Charlotte, the
thing you're not worried about is man, I think when
LaMelo's back and healthy, he's gonna make it harder for
Konkorin Nipple and Ryan Kalkbrenner to play their best right, like,
that's not, that's not we can remove that from the analysis,
I think right.
Speaker 1: Ditto for Brandon Miller if they ever turned together performances
and right to your point about him being able to
fit more of his threes are coming off of this,
Like seventy five percent of his three so far I've
come offices, which is way higher than it was the
last year. And just the is that the highest mark
of his career. It might be I'd have to go back.
I'd have to go back and look, I just do
you get to a point though, to where it's uneasy
to say this is our building block and he has
missed so much time and look at all the ankle
issues that are in his rear view and what would
it take?
Speaker 2: Is it? I don't want to use the word trapped.
Speaker 1: Because I think this team is very flexible in the
front office by and large, done a very good job.
But at this point are they just defaulting if we
gave them truth serum? Are they just defaulting to LaMelo
because no better options have surfaced? Or do you think
is there would there be a team that could come
in with an offer that would be able to get
the Hornets to think, you know, like, yeah, maybe we
should move on from this LaMelo era and then where
does that where does that leave you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I do think it really because of the health
stuff and because of what we've seen from this decision
making group, is really just an emphasis on opportunism, like
we'll take we'll make the small deal, we'll take, you know,
we'll we'll make the incremental gains, we'll pick up a
second round or here whatever. I think that certainly you'd
be willing to listen, and maybe more so just because
like at some point the you know, the injuries just
reach a point where it it's like this is either
priced in or there have been enough now to where
the healthy version of this player is diminished and is
not you know, like that it kind of goes two ways.
So yeah, I do think you listen, and I do
think you need to be open, as Charlotte to the
possibility that LaMelo, maybe because of injuries or not, he
actually just isn't good enough or reliable enough to be
the guy we're building around. I think that's that's totally
a fair thing to say. Then the issue though, is like, Okay,
so we're trading him, what's the market look like like?
And what do we want back? Do we want like
do we want to pick package? Do we want someone
we think is a more suitable cornerstone? Uh?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: Do we are what are we injured? What's our timeline?
That opens up like a million different questions. I do
think there are a lot of teams that could use
a creator. The problem with and LaMelo can be that
and and a high scoring, you know, lead offensive option.
The problem is all of the questions Charlotte has and
the ones that we're asking just follow him wherever he goes,
so like why is he worth any more to some
other team? And where's that team in its timeline too?
That's an interesting thing to think about than he is
to Charlotte.
Speaker 1: The thing too, that Charlotte could play, like the car
they could play, is they can continue to preach patients
because including this season, You're looking at LaMelo Ball's contract
and it's four years, one hundred and sixty nine million dollars,
runs through his twenty twenty eight twenty twenty nine season,
at which point he'll be I think that's his age
twenty seven campaign. So it would almost take a bowlover
offer and what you had said really resonates to where
what other team would give Charlotte enough for them to
feel good about trading LaMelo Ball while also feeling good
about acquiring LaMelo Ball, because if the questions.
Speaker 2: Are, can he drive winning?
Speaker 1: Is a team that is a team like the Piston's
gonna view him as the perfect compliment to Kate Cunningham.
Is a team like the Rockets gonna come in and say,
we're going to give you a bunch of stuff because
we really need someone to to drive a different version
of this offense than the one that we're playing right now.
Those are two destinations that would be highly intriguing for
LaMelo Ball. But if you're Charlotte, it's the cliche would
be LaMelo ball can't be considered untouchable. If someone bowls
you over with an offer, I think you have to
consider it. At the same time, I don't know who's
for people that want the Hornets to tray the melo ball.
You run into a similar issue with Trey.
Speaker 2: Young at Atlanta.
Speaker 1: It's what is the team that is coming in and
like giving you all of this stuff for LaMelo Ball,
And even in Charlotte's case, it's harder to make that
decision than if it was John Morant in Memphis where
Jaron Jackson Junior is waiting there, in Atlanta where Jalen
Johnson's there. If you decide to move from Trey in
for the Hornets, it's we like Conkin Hippel. I still
like Brandon Miller, but I don't feel like you can't
just if you're picking a player on this team that
has the best chance of being the face or the
driving force of a really good team.
Speaker 2: It's still LaMelo Ball.
Speaker 3: Yeah, after all.
Speaker 2: These years, after all these concerns, for all.
Speaker 3: These flaws, I think that's right, and I think he
he young is a good analog. Although because of the
length of Ball's contract, it's it's he's even more. This
is an even bigger concern for him. Like it's not
the same thing as like, Okay, well, I don't know,
Desmond Bain got this, like he got this for the Grizzlies.
Like Bain is not someone you add to your team
and he fundamentally changes how you play and fundamentally affects
the players you put around him. Right, he's he's a high,
high end role playing guy, but he doesn't it doesn't
require you to make a bunch of changes or like
have the deep questions of, like what's our identity now?
I think if you have LaMelo Ball on your team
on the court, like he's gonna be a high usage
player and you're gonna have to insulate him defensively, and
you're gonna have to have certain types of guys, Like
you don't trade for LaMelo Ball and say like you're
gonna play the Desmond Bain role, like cause he sort
of could. He could just be like a high volume
three point shooter, but he's not a good defender. Earliest
he hasn't been, and so the best thing for him
to do is to be what he's been, which is
on the ball all the time. He is your singular
generator of offense. And it's like as another team you're
signing up for, like a that's a full makeover if
you add LaMelo, Like he's not just like a fit
in guy because of the best use of him just
isn't as that type of player. So like everything about
acquiring him like kind of works against acquiring him because
it's like you're saying, we're signing up for the Charlotte
experience in a lot of ways, like we're tethering ourselves
to him because he's not a role guy, does you
know what I mean? Like that just it makes it
so hard to trade for him because you're signing up
for a complete alteration of like your whole deal when
you bring him aboard. And is it worth it? I
don't know if Charlotte's trading him, they've decided.
Speaker 1: It's not, and they have more information on him than
anyone else too, and that's going to be what's kind
of troubling. Is there a team that would stand out
as you would either like his fig or that you
could see coming over the top with that would get
Charlotte thinking and even two before answering that is what
would you you asked this question, if you are to.
Speaker 2: Put LaMelo Ball on the chopping block, what is it?
That is it just picks?
Speaker 5: Is it?
Speaker 1: You're trying to get a challenge trade to where this
is just an example, but it would be like LaMelo
Ball for John Morant where you're thinking kind of a
change of we're not getting we're not focusing too much
on the future. We're getting back another type of veteran
that we just think is going to be better here
long term or is it you're trying to get the
younger guy with upside rather than the picks.
Speaker 3: I think my knee jerk reaction is. And I'm kind
of like thinking, like I think Charlotte would in this situation,
I kind of want to pick heavy return because certainly
at least two if you go with Call Prinner and
Ca Nipple, and maybe more than that of my like
four most interesting players or rookies, and like, because Brandon
Miller again is a question mark. He's he's young enough
to where it's like, I don't know, it's not crazy
to prioritize a five year window or something like that.
I think I'm leaning picks, but that might be because
the type of team you trade LaMelo to might be
more willing to give those up than a good young player,
because like you, I don't think. I don't know, because
again getting into the types of teams you mentioned, what
Detroit is like one you'd think about because like, all right,
maybe Jade and Ivey's not gonna happen, and like him
and Kate is interesting as like dual lead ball handlers.
I don't know, that's a weird fit. We will, we said,
Orlando forever. But like it seems like that ship is
sailed Houston.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's the team because it's Reed Shepherd
and picks and salary, that would be the team. And
if you're the Hornets, you could then say we got
future picks and Reed Shepperd's.
Speaker 2: Been playing better.
Speaker 1: If anyone has been paying attention, you could say, we
think that we have someone who might be a Coke
cornerstone next to Brandon Miller, and then we got these
extra picks. And what you're basically doing at that point
is saying, we're prolonging our timeline a little bit, but
we're shorting LaMelo Ball's stock, whether it's his health or
his ability to impact winning overall, because I think it's
fair to say we don't have enough evidence of this
player can't contribute to a contender or even be the
leading force of a contender.
Speaker 2: To say that.
Speaker 1: But that's the problem is you can the Hornets have
not given him that team, But he also hasn't been
available to say, like enough, I have fifty missing more
than half your team's games over like that over the
past three or four seasons.
Speaker 2: It's not that's not great. So I could see a scenario.
Speaker 1: Houston just feels like the only team for me that
could really because Detroit it would have to be you're
not getting Asar Thompson, You're not getting jail En Duran
And so I don't know, I mean, maybe want Jay
n Ivey, but he's headed for restricted free agency and
he's been banged up. It would be Ron Hollanden picks yeah,
And I don't know, does Detroit want do that?
Speaker 2: And then two what does that? Does that move Charlotte
or has already made its move?
Speaker 1: And so unless you think that, what a challenge, Like,
what's the challenge trade Paalo Benco for LaMelo Ball?
Speaker 2: At this point?
Speaker 1: Is it Franz Wagner for a little bit? I think
if you ask a lot of people inside the Magic,
they might feel more comfortable about Franz's future than Palo's
just the way that team might be built. I still
I'm higher on Palo long term than Franz. It's there's
not a lot of team. I mean, Portland, but what
are they what are they giving you? Or are you in
love with young handsome and Portland picks Chicago doesn't need
a guard anymore. Apparently, it seems like what we're getting
at if there's an answer to the what is the unknowable?
Speaker 3: What is LaMelo Ball's trade value? I think the only
thing I feel confident in so far is that he's
just more valuable to Charlotte than he is to a
potential acquiring team. I think because like the acquiring team
you just went through the list of like packages, It's like,
I don't know, are they are any of them giving
that up for Ball?
Speaker 2: Who says no?
Speaker 1: If it's if you're using matching, I guess the matching
salaries gets tough because LaMelo's pretty cheap.
Speaker 2: But like, what is the core?
Speaker 1: There's Reed Shepherd and what's the guess Dorian Phinney Smith
and what like another smaller salary to get to LaMelo Ball?
Speaker 3: But if it is, it is it? That's probably not
even close to big. I don't know how you get
So let's.
Speaker 1: Say the let's say they figure out the money and
it's easan read Shepherd and picks for LaMelo? Is that
something that even gets Charlotte thinking? And then how many
first round picks it? Because I think Charlotte Charlotte probably
can't expect more than at LaMelo Ball's current value I
don't know if they get more than two first round picks.
Speaker 3: Like real ones, though they got to be real ones. Shepherd,
I mean, from Houston's perspective, Shepherd is is not the
same as LaMelo, but it's kind of similar where it's like,
I don't know, it might be in there, it might
not be. We've seen indications of both. That's an interesting
offer if you're if you're Charlotte, I don't think you can.
I don't think you can feel good about out Shepherd
having a better chance at being a cornerstone than LaMelo.
Is that crazy to say, even with the injury stuff.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that's crazy to say.
Speaker 3: I don't played at like an all starish level Seal.
Speaker 2: And read Shepherd didn't.
Speaker 1: Really this is his rookie season basically, right, and you
look at you just.
Speaker 3: You don't know a lot about both, but for different reasons.
Speaker 2: So we've established.
Speaker 1: I would agree that he's more valuable to Charlotte than
any other team. We didn't forget anybody who would be
the team that would just come in and give it
all up for LaMelo.
Speaker 2: It's not I mean, he'd be fun in Toronto, but what.
Speaker 3: Is it Well, let's go the other way, Like, is
Washington like looking to add someone to make everybody all
their other young players better. Let's like look look at
the bad teams, like does Brooklyn want a point guard?
Do they have any?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 3: Like, what are the although Brooklyn.
Speaker 1: Could build if if Charlotte wants picks, they could give
them one of their eighty first round prospects from the
year's draft, one or two of those guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just picks, and Brooklyn says, we're tired of We're
tired of not being relevant. People will be interested in LaMelo.
Speaker 2: On our pick in twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 3: I can see something, I think I maybe I don't know.
It's weird, like a middling team has no interest. It's
the bad ones and the good ones that need a
point guard. Like it's it's there's no like, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Here's here's an interesting I guess it is a challenge trade.
But it would have to be LaMelo to Toronto for
I'm assuming Colinary boils picks and then is the salary
a manual quickly or RJ Barrett like that.
Speaker 2: That's the that's the framework.
Speaker 3: It's got to be a lot of picks. I think, Yeah, Well, yeah,
and LaMelo would really change how Toronto plays, I think,
and maybe for the better, at least on offense.
Speaker 1: There's just something of him, Barrett and Brandon Ingram were
all on the same team.
Speaker 2: There's just weird, right, Like that's just that's just like
kind of objectively weird.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean not to short circuit the discussion, but like
I think LaMelo, he's listed as probable. We're recording this
on a Friday against Milwaukee. I think you just you're
gonna need to see him play well for both for
Charlotte and both for everybody else.
Speaker 1: You gotta we need like a month, no, no, But well,
if you're Charlotte, I think I don't. He could play
his ass off for the next month, and I don't
know that it's going to fundamentally change how we feel
about his value to the Hornets versus what it is
the rest of the league. But if you're Charlotte, how
much longer do you wait to say before you these direction?
Things are never this cut and dry, But how much
longer do you wait before they're probably already thinking about it?
But how much longer do you wait before you kind
of internally decide the moves? We are making from Huron,
not that they've tailored so much around LaMelo ball, but
it's we're making these moves independent of knowing LaMelo ball
is going to be here or that we're not going
to trade LaMelo ball.
Speaker 3: In other words, it's like, how much longer? Maybe they
aren't operating this way, but it seems like they are.
How much longer do the Hornets think and function and
work as if LaMelo is the guy, like want you
know around whom they're basing all their decisions. Is that
is that a different version or is that like kind
of what you're asking.
Speaker 1: It's kind of what I'm saying, But it's also I
don't know if they've done anything to this point that
really who have they passed on?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: They're like where it said, it's if anything. With the
number of guards that they had on this roster to
begin the season, you could almost wonder where they're planning
around the ball missing a bunch of times.
Speaker 3: Well, they again smart management, which they have like should
be doing. Should that was recorrect that they've been approved
correct already? I mean so, I guess because of the
fact that we're having such a hard time assessing his
value assessing the types of teams that should want him,
assessing what Charlotte would even be interested in isn't the answer,
Like I think Charlotte should is willing to wait at
least through this season. Like so, if if he comes
back and like you said, he plays great, and you
get a bunch of information, maybe by the end of
the year you have answers to the questions we haven't
had answers for so far. And if you get more
of the same where he's out again with an ankle injury,
I think at that point at the end of the year,
because you can't if he gets hurt again, you just
sort of can't trade him because who's gonna want him.
Speaker 1: It becomes the Iion situation where you get stuck a point,
it's not even you get stuck, but it's why trade hit,
I guess because if you want to get his guaranteed
money off the books or Zion Techley isn't guaranteed, but
you're not going to get like the packages we mentioned
that I'm assuming some Hornets fans would think wasn't enough.
If La Moball finishes another season injured, you're not getting
anything in that stratosphere.
Speaker 3: Right right, right, Yeah, it's risky to wait, so then yeah,
like do you really want to get out ahead of it?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 3: Is the is kind of the flip it question? And
you move him now because you don't know whether he's
going to be healthy or he's the cornerstone you've kind
of made him up to be and you don't care
because the risk just isn't worth it. You're as Charlotte,
You're making small, smart, incremental decisions. You're not in the
business of like hanging out for another couple of years
while you wait for this like maybe maybe not transformative player.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I could see them thinking that way if you're really
risk averse and it's just like the risk we're willing
to accept is we moved on too early as opposed
to the risk of holding on to him and he
just sort of puts you in like a holding pattern
for two more years. Maybe that's the way to think
of it.
Speaker 2: This is a cop out answer. I think you wait
until it's convenient not to wait anymore. And by what
I what I would mean by that is they just
need to reevaluate this year over year at if they
go to the draft lottery again this year, where do
you land with that?
Speaker 1: Like, and it's do you think that you can get?
Or has Brandon Miller been healthy and finished the season Oh,
doing a lot of on ball stuff. The passing got
even a little better. We think he could be between
him and Conkinippl, whoever we draft. I also, the thing
that we have in factor in is what is the
urgency factor for this franchise because the front office has
been smart, but we know that the long game has
its limits. And Okay, Conkain Nipple looks great this rookie class,
but exceptional Lee McNeely so far for them really good.
We don't know what Miller is. Tejon Salon looks like
the wrong pick. What pressure are they? How much longer
are you giving this?
Speaker 2: Again?
Speaker 1: I think that they've taken the smart approach that only
lasts for so long. Oh, Like the ownership is only
going to sign off on that for so long. The
front office is only gonna want to slept through this
phase for so long. And so I'm curious to see
after this year because neither of us would. I mean,
if they were fully healthy, it's different. We didn't have
them as a playoff team like they could maybe sneak
into the back end of that play in territory. I'm
very just curious to see what's the urgency after this
sea LaMelo Ball will still I'll be shocked if LaMelo
Ball isn't on the Hornets to finish this season.
Speaker 2: But I'm just very curious. Says well, if you're in.
Speaker 1: The draft lottery again, what is the level of urgency
you're approaching the offseason with to get better? And if
you're try to get better, Labelo Ball has to be
a part of that vision. No, it's not We're gonna
get better by trading LaMelo Ball.
Speaker 3: Probably not. I do think it buys them. It buys
the Hornets time if they do keep hitting on their
picks generally. So not to say they need to get superstars,
but it's like, I think everyone would agree that they
got great value with every like every pick they made,
so that like it makes it easier to trust the
front office. Maybe that by I don't know what, like
you put an actual figure on it, Like, does that
mean you get one more year of patients than you
otherwise would? If like the small moves you make keep
looking like good ones, I think that gets you some
But you're right, like you can't. It's not a process
Sixers thing where there's just like this indefinite you know,
build build, build, build, build, lose, lose, lose. I think, well,
that's never happening again. Like I think, I think if
you're even for Charlotte, it's like maybe there's two more
years before it's like, hey, guys do something.
Speaker 1: And they've by the way the past two they've kind
of approached it is, will recalibrate at the trade deadline
to where they didn't come into each season saying we're
going to be awful. He moves at the trade deadline
because they understood the specter of their team with the
Lamello injury, so they started moving off of guys, is
that gonna be what.
Speaker 2: Happens this season?
Speaker 1: Or like they've been frisky without LaMelo And so that's
what's also intriguing part of all this and the other
the final thing here is there a like what does
he just mean to the franchise in terms of entertainment value?
Because I hate defaulting to this. He does put butts
in seats. Your counter argument to that could be so
less than half the time.
Speaker 3: Your counter argument is his butts in a seat A
lot right not playing, So yeah, I think he does
have real value. He is one hundred percent the first
player you think of when you think of the Hornets.
And it's not just because he's the best player when healthy.
It's because he's entertaining. It's because he's liable to do
wild stuff and sometimes it's spectacular.
Speaker 2: Like he is.
Speaker 3: He is the reason, the reason number one you go
watch Charlotte. Now maybe that changes if Canipple is this
good and like, but that's just a very different thing.
It's it's LaMelo is the marquee name, and teams do
care about that, like especially if you trade him for picks,
because then fans are like, cool, i'll see you next year,
you know, like I just or or get I will
not be renewing season tickets because I don't care. I
wanted to watch LaMelo. Like that's it's not an insignificant
concern for for especially for a market like this one.
Speaker 1: This is all to say, we like LaMelo and we're
continuing to wait for reasons that are both you know,
we we think he's really good, but also I don't
know what else the Charlee Hornets are supposed to do.
Speaker 3: Right, sit and wait, you want to. I think that's
what does LaMelo ball mean to the Hornets?
Speaker 2: Don't know La. We think that the Hornet should hold
serve Wi Famel.
Speaker 1: But look, the ESPN report came out that people are
wondering when he's gonna come.
Speaker 2: In the market.
Speaker 1: If he's you, I just don't see a path to
where it makes sense to moving him right now.
Speaker 2: And maybe I'm just.
Speaker 1: I'm just blinded by what I think is going to
still be an All NBA player at some point.
Speaker 3: If you were in charge of Charlotte, we would not
be having what does LaMelo mean to the Hornets? Everything
that I would be trading.
Speaker 1: Brandon Miller and Conkinippill just to make sure that he
continued to meet everything to the franchise.
Speaker 4: You got it.
Speaker 3: You gotta have you guys.
Speaker 2: What is up?
Speaker 1: Fellasiko's m Dana Valley coming at you with Mort Jensen
of the NBA Podcast, of Yahoo Sports, of Forbes, of
HBO Max and for what he's known most for only fans.
Speaker 2: We're here to talk. We are be on the lookout.
Speaker 1: We're supposed to do a deep dive into rookies in
the Eastern Conference. That'll be coming probably the next day.
After this drops. But the Pelicans fire Willy Green, so
we're gonna talk about it. And the question I have
to you moret is, now that you know the Pelicans
have fired Willy Green, what changes about the way you
feel about this team?
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they're they're on the path now. Now, look,
Joe Dumars is still heading this team. Gail Binston still
owns this team. So this feels very much like one
of those situations with Nico Harrison where yeah, was he
doing a great job?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Not really was he the crux of all issues Also,
no way, more deeper rooted issues remains. There's also some
legal issues hanging over signed Williamson your best player, which
could also affect both your season and the players standing
within the league. Oh you know, considering what could happen.
Everything is just dumb and weird with this organization, to
a point where we're even seeing the fan base so
upset that they're kind of lashing out at Derek Queen
for the trades made by Joe Dumarsh, which I just
very much met against. Like, that's not Derek Queen fault,
Like I have not known, No, no, not not big
members of the family, like I've seen it.
Speaker 4: I've seen it.
Speaker 5: Not like the prominent fans that we know and who
are occasionally visiting us on the podcasts, they are very
much supporters of mister Queen. But I have seen I
have seen fans mentioned that, oh, like, you know, why
are you not playing like the player that we gave
up all that all up for that up four? Because
there that that was the expectation, right like, first you
made the the Pacers trade to get that pick, then
you looped that pig in with the Atlanta's trade to
get number third seen, and then you picked Derrek Queen.
So I think people were some people were expecting Derrek
Queen to become something that he was never supposed to be.
And that's unfortunate because that is not at the feet
of him. That is at the feet of Joe Dumars.
Speaker 1: It's not at the feet of Willy Green either, because
of how a few games he had being in charge
with Derek Queen's development. I think what I don't understand
and I don't think anyone can understand. And Schmidt Dua
of in the Know, has been all over this. Yes,
apparently David Griffin wanted to get rid of Willy Green,
but owner Gaile Benson said no and that it was
a borderline stipulation that Willy Green remained with the Pelicans
when Joe Dumars and Troy Weaver took over. Joe du
Mars came out and I found Schmidt noted that the
event media availability had was on zoom and I don't
think you could even see him after the fact, which
is just that's not a real level of accountability to me.
Speaker 2: What is the justice his justification.
Speaker 1: For Why did you let Willy Green even start the
season so that you got to this point when all
signs were pointing towards he's gonna get fired. They wouldn't
let James Barrego be a real candidate for the Knicks
because they kind of knew, yeah, we're gonna need him
to be our interim head coach at some point. What
type of a process is that? It's just what is
the as Joe do. I'm actually speaking from Joe Dumars's
perspective here. If you're gonna get paid and your boss's
stipulation is but I'm not gonna let you change the
head coach, I kind of understand it. But he's also
trying to take ownership of it a little bit by saying, well,
I watched the Pelicans eight years ago and Willie Green
was I kind of liked his vibe there.
Speaker 2: That's not what he said, of course, but he referenced just.
Speaker 1: Watching the Pelicans two seasons ago and thought Willy Green
deserved a chance, and so you believe that the chance was, Well,
we'll just give him fewer than fifteen games into the
season and we'll wait until after they start h to
six to where this isn't even rock bottom for the
Pelicans right now that I would have argued was closer
to have they even reached rock bottom?
Speaker 2: Is a question. That's what this all means.
Speaker 1: It is for me, and I think it doesn't materially
change any thoughts I have about the because what maybe
we'll see different ways, but we'll see different rotations from
James Barrego. We'll probably see a different offense from James Barrego.
What are you expecting? Like, what was Willie Green not
doing enough of? Was?
Speaker 2: Is there?
Speaker 1: I just don't, especially with the personnel he's given. It
seems by all, by all intents and purposes, he lost
the locker room is the thing that I've heard a lot.
Speaker 2: That's a problem.
Speaker 1: So I'm not like that should be laid in his feed,
but just everything this organization did. He's not being announced
before games anymore, and was it under the guise of
well fans were gonna boo him. And it's I just
everything this organization has done for a while, but just
within the like since June or since that Pace initial
Pacers trade. It's just, you know what the science most
scientific word.
Speaker 2: Is, it's icky. It makes me feel icky.
Speaker 4: That's a good word.
Speaker 5: And it's it's true everything feels rotten and dumb, and
it's it's it's one of those questions where the fan
base can they at any point feel comfortable and change
is made as longest Gale Benson is owning that team,
because like, look in when Joe dumars and immediately you
can't trust his decision making process. He's presumably going to
be there for a while. Let's say, by some miracle
he has a moment of you know, self realization and
just goes to the organization says, look, I've made some
really dumb decisions in my very short stint here. I'm
going to resign immediately because I am dempally incompetent even
if that were to happen.
Speaker 1: Which it won't, because there's only thirty of these jobs? Well, right,
is there really only thirty of these jobs? With the
way the executive executive I archy will right.
Speaker 2: Now, there might be sixty. It might be sixty.
Speaker 5: Sorry I got sixty. But like, do you trust Gail
Benson to bring in someone new who can actually handle matters?
Or do you who do you like?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 2: Can I ask another question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's say you could pick whoever you wanted to
run the p picans. Do you think that that who's
going to come in with the resources It seems like
Gail Benson and co. Are prepared to give them. Who
is actually going to turn this thing around? If you
put Sam Presty in New Orleans, I'm assuming the asset
management would be better. But do you expect because there
probably be a mandate you can't rebuild for an entire
season and a half.
Speaker 2: They probably looked.
Speaker 1: At Okac's rebuild post Russell Westbrook or whatever you want
to claim it star as Wow, that lasted way too long.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: No, if whoever you bring in, if that person is
not going to give in going to be given the
necessary bway, what's the point And that's where I think
the fan base is at right now. Like the issues
are with ownership, and as I've said for years on
the NB podcast, like that is the biggest advantage in sports.
If you have good ownership, that is by far the
most important indicator of success. The Pels do not have
that now currently. They do not also have a great
front office. So it's like it's a double whammy. Like
you're hurting the long term prospects, you're hurting the short
term prospects, and nothing is working. It's super frustrating. You have,
like I mentioned at the top, you have a superstar
with a rape allegation hanging over his head. You have
a roster that generally speaking is not working out that well.
There's not a lot of cohesion there. You just made
a coaching change like fourteen games, fourteen games or actually
twelve games into the season. It's just all ikey is
a good word. It's blah is another, Like just the
sheer trade of you know CJ for Jordan Poole as well.
Speaker 1: Just yeah, why are you adding money as an organization
that is notoriously cheap? Why are you adding money beyond
and don't tell me that Jordan Poole just needs a
change of role and he'll be fine in New Morman,
and he has been awful to.
Speaker 2: Start the season.
Speaker 1: I wonder, well, do you think that this will at
least provide a semblance of clarity as to who is
really kind of running things for the front office?
Speaker 2: Because Kevin the villain, but I guess.
Speaker 1: The soon to be villain, but because Kevin Ollie's name
is already cropping up. And if they hire Kevin Ollie,
this is Troy Weaver's show, right, Isn't that abundantly clear?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: And that's where things get murky and depressing. And look,
at least, the only silver lightning we can sum this
up pretty quickly. The only silver lining they have here
is that they got Jeremiah Fears and Durk Queen and
the draft queen I still like, although you know, you
got picked way too high, but like, he's a good player.
Jeremiah Fears is a guy who I think highly of
moving forward, And that's about it. Like Trey Murphy's by
far their best trade asset at this point, and they'll
probably need to utilize that trade asset to get some
draft picks. In return at some point that they can
use because long term this is this is looking like
a complete shit show.
Speaker 1: What I think is also going to be interesting too
is would you expect them because even when you hear
Kevin Ollie's name mentioned, I wonder if they would pay
what is necessary to a head coach to get what
I think Kevin Alli would command, because this seems like
the quintessential. They're gonna end up hiring either a retread
or a first timer. I don't know what James Berego
falls into, but he would probably be someone who Okay,
he only has the experience in Charlotte, so he's not
going to command top dollar and just doesn't have money,
doesn't have the same mark. When you hear Kevin Allie's name,
I think people just go, oh, that might or maybe
he is someone who would be cheap. But I've seen, oh,
there's Tom Thibodeau's out there and Michael Malone's out there.
First of all, tips coaching Zion would be a disaster.
Speaker 4: Let's just make that clear.
Speaker 1: Right, They're not going to pay what it takes to
get one of the bigger names whoever you view as
the biggest coach, like even maybe some of the more
well known coaching quote unquote prospects. They're not going to
be the team that's going to compensate them enough to
get them. And so I'm very curious to see where
this ends up. I almost expect it to land with, well,
James Morego is gonna get the job because he might,
he might be good, but it feels like he he
will be within their price range.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because that's how they operate. And I wonder if
ownership has a good grasp of you know, the salary
cap and whatnot. I don't think so like things. So
I'm not an NFL guy, so you can correct me
if I'm wrong here, but it does seem like the Saints,
who the who has the same ownership group, if I'm
not mistaken, are also being run like a trash organization
at this stage.
Speaker 4: What's the common denominator there?
Speaker 2: Ah, the fan base.
Speaker 4: Obviously it's there, right exactly. So this is bad.
Speaker 5: And we can sit here all day long and come
up with theoretical trades. We can come up with like
a plan. We can say, oh, if you go this
route instead, it'll short the rebuilding process. You can go
through all that. The fact of the matter is, well,
you're probably gonna look at it seam that's going to
try it at some point to accelerate insto the rebuild
or retool.
Speaker 1: So you think the Pelicans are more You don't think
that at least making this decision where they deserve criticism
for it.
Speaker 2: Why wasn't it made sooner?
Speaker 1: Why wasn't Joe Dumars allowed to get rid of Why
wasn't David Griffin allowed to get rid of Lly Green
at some point? But they did finally make it. You
don't view this as a potential sign. And even I
don't know if you saw Joe Dumars's response to it
was asked. I think it might have actually been asked
by SCHMIDTU of in the know, do you still view
Zion as your tempole building block? And he seemed that
answer that he gave seemed and I didn't hear it,
so I can't give you the context of it, but
he seemed more non committal than he did when he
first took the gig. And so do you think that
there's a possibility the fact they made this type of
change at all so early? I think it's the easy change,
it's but you don't think it makes it more likely
that maybe they do look at hitting the reset button. Finally,
you think that they're still more likely to try and
accelerate their place within the Western Conference landscape and throw
the I know people appoint to while they have to.
They don't control the unprotected draft pick this year. Sure,
but you reach a point to where it's that's not
chasing wins.
Speaker 2: Just so it looks better.
Speaker 1: What pick you end up giving up just doesn't at
this point doesn't really matter.
Speaker 5: Well, see about the wins. There's some number floating around
in New Orleans these days about what happened last year,
the Pelicans and the Saints combined for twenty six wins.
That's a number that's been bandied about, a fair bunch,
and apparently that's somewhat that's been coming. That's a bit
of a talking point. And given that, I would be
surprised if that didn't ruffle some feathers at the top
level to the point where they would come and mandate
to basically say, win more games. And now I'm not
trying to be an agist, but Gail Benson is also
on the older side. Do can we rely on the
fact that she understands the complexity of rebuilding.
Speaker 4: I am not sure you could.
Speaker 1: That feels a little I'm not going to defend Gale Benson,
but what owner does how many of the how many
owners do you actually think? Like you could say the
same thing about Herb Simon in Indiana, You could say
the same thing about James Dolan in New York.
Speaker 4: A younger owner.
Speaker 5: I do think younger owners at least understand it to
a certain point, Like some ignore it, like Matt Ishbia
ignores it to a certain extent, he understands it. Mark
Cuban obviously we knew that he understood the concept of rebuilding.
Like there are owners and that's why I said agists first,
Like I understand that that that's the crux of the issue.
But like, mostly it's older owners who fail to understand
that these things have become pretty complex, because when you
think about it, even even like older owners like Jared
Reinstorf who's had the bulls for so many years, like
the concept of rebuilding back in the eighties and nineties
or even early two thousands were a lot different. It
was like, oh, pretty simplistic. Oh yeah, well you get
a couple drivers to the draft and you go through
free agency.
Speaker 4: Dodo. That's it.
Speaker 5: That's not how it works anymore. You got to find
guys on the margins. You have to acquire multiple draft
picks in the same year. You have to identify the
correct year to do that. You can't send out too
many draft picks like there are swap like there are
a million swap options hanging over your head. And for
the first and second round. Things are just grotesquely more
complicated than it was twenty years ago. So what I'm
saying here, and this is a question I have generally
with every old owner in every sport, is does that
owner understand the complexity of rebuilding?
Speaker 1: I think the bigger indictment would be, is this owner
willing to put people in charge?
Speaker 2: I pay to write people in charge conduct searches.
Speaker 1: Because the other thing that Smidt has reported is that
there was no other interviews held, there no search. It
was Joe Dumars, is what And that's my bigger as.
I don't look Gail Benson's role. I don't know if
it is to understand the complexities of rebuilding, it's to
put the right people in place who do or give
them a license to do their job and not handcuff
them behind.
Speaker 5: It, right, But then she didn't. And that's that's where
I'm at because, like, if you were charged with something,
if you had an you know, if you owned something
and that you needed that to be managed, would you
put someone in charge who did who doesn't understand, you know,
what they're doing that. As an owner, you have responsibility
to understand at least certain elements. And that goes for everyone.
That's not just Gailbins, and that's with every single owner
in professional sports. You have a responsibility to do your
homework so you can hire the best people, Like she
hired the wrong guy when like when when Joe Dumars
was hired, everyone was like, oh, oh, like there wasn't
anything optimistic there.
Speaker 4: Everyone one was.
Speaker 5: Like that, that seems like a really bad hire. So
how can someone have done their homework if the universal
reaction is oh, that seems bad and the guy immediately
confirms your worst suspicion. At some point it comes back
to ownership and protecting your own assets.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm not look not defending Gale Benson here.
Speaker 1: I think it's more of a I just think the
way that I guess what you're talking about when.
Speaker 2: It comes to that spirit of rebuilding.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's unique to Gaale Benson that she
would either rather avoid it or.
Speaker 5: Oh no, no. If I made it sound unique, I apologize.
That's not like I we were talking about the Pelicans specifically.
Speaker 4: I apply this to every single owner in sports.
Speaker 2: You're running, you're giving what it.
Speaker 1: Let's just say that Joe Dumars or whoever, Troy Weaver
has the license to do whatever they want with the Pelicans.
Speaker 2: What are you doing? What is your first order of
business right now?
Speaker 5: Well, attacking this from their perspective or am I attacking it?
Speaker 4: I think our perspective.
Speaker 1: Look, if we're attacking it from their perspective, we just
need to predict what's the wrong.
Speaker 4: Move and right exactly?
Speaker 2: Okay, what should the Pelicans do?
Speaker 1: And I guess this is really the conversation of when
you're looking at Zion Williamson, have you reached a point
to where it's we know the trade value would be
so bizarrely low relative to what peaks Ion could look
like if he ever stayed available enough, or are you
at the point should you be running this organization to
where it's as long as it doesn't mess up our
long term books and we're getting something. We just need
to like wipe this slate clean and kind of start
it new.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the latter. I mean, look, you need to get assets,
you need to get young assets, You need to start
a whereabil you need to do.
Speaker 4: You need to do everything you can.
Speaker 5: You know, you don't control a lot of your future first,
I just need to actually kind of do. Let me
just go back like that. I thought they were in
worse shape with the picks. I know that tears well,
that is a pretty For some reason, I thought their
twenty nine pick was also out the door. I might
mistake them for a different organization then, So you know what,
that's positive. Now you need the additional draft picks if
you're going to start the long term process. That means
what can you get for herb Jones? Can you get
a sweetheart deal for Trey Murphy? By the way, I'm
not saying they need to trade Trey Murphy if there's
you know, because he's cheap, he's super productive, he's you know,
he's a guy who probably could make a couple of
All Star Games down the line. So I'm not saying
they necessarily need to. But if if there's like a
Desmond Baine return out there for Trey Murphy.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't hate that, Dan, like that's probably.
Speaker 1: The by the way, nor should you, because I think
it's fine to look at Trey Murphy's contract, what he
could do and say you don't have to move him.
Speaker 2: I think that's totally fair.
Speaker 1: But if you make him off limits or you say
that he is the only one who's untouchable, it worries
me in this sense of, well, how fast is this
team gonna try and turn things around that they think
Trey Murphy is going to still be on this great
contract when they're good again.
Speaker 2: Because this contract is awesome.
Speaker 1: What we let Trey Murphy's twenty five right now, he's
gonna be what if we're being realistic, if you were
to rebuild the Pelicans, he's probably gonna be twenty nine. Yeah,
by the time that they're ready to enter contention. And
that might be me being generous. And so that's the
Trey Murphy discussion. It's not they just need to trade him.
I think that's more of a discussion to have about
Zion Williamson than Trey and maybe even Herb Jones, who's
not trade eligible.
Speaker 2: To I think middle of January.
Speaker 1: But the Trey Murphy thing that's always runned me a
wrong way a little bit to where yeah, he's your
best trade asset, doesn't mean you have to keep him
unless the plan is we're gonna be competitive next season
or within the next two seasons. And if that is
the plan, that concerns me because you're so far away.
Speaker 4: Yeah, completely agreed.
Speaker 5: What I'm thinking here is with Sion, I'm putting him
into sort of a bubble because of the legal issues
that are hanging over him. I don't think any team
wants to touch him or give up relinquished assets whatsoever
before that's resolved. So I can't even take him into
account in terms of like the trade landscape whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Which I think is fair.
Speaker 1: But if you're the Pelicans, it's probably and I don't
know how many of their moves have been rooted in.
I think you could make the case that one of
their problems was that maybe they didn't consider Zion enough
in a lot of the on the court, in a
lot of some of the other moves that they've made,
or the half measures that they've made. But you do
need to get to a point now to where if
you're going to decide, oh, we're gonna actually rebuild, this
is gonna be more of a thorough this is gonna
be a different kind of process than we've been used
to over the past. However many years, you have to
there has to be some show of you proving to
your fan base that this is isn't about Zion Williamson
or the Zion era anymore, and moving him for expiring
money would be the way to do that. He's a
player who's way better than that on the court, or
you at least need to put maybe even if you
don't like fuelers need to be put out, or you
need to send the message that he's open. Which it's
kind of this open secret that I don't think the
Pelicans ever have viewed him untouchables over the past few years,
and that trades that have been mentioned, they probably sought
out more and found out that his value isn't where
it needs to be as a as a trade asset.
Speaker 2: And it's tough to square away with you.
Speaker 1: You're right, with the allegations hanging over his head, the
off court stuff we've seen teams like teams will it's
tough to account for it.
Speaker 2: But we've like teams don't.
Speaker 1: Operate with a that type of morality either, and so
this is the Los Angeles Clippers. You're right, yes, And
so I think the other thing is too, is that
for them to say, oh, we can't move him or
like they feel like they're forced and to keep him,
that would be just sort of this like that's just
a facade. So I don't it's easy for us to
sit here to say, though, you need to move Zion
Williams in or just don't play Zion Williams and when
he's healthy, we know that's not really how this works.
Is that the I don't know what other evidence there
would be though, or that we would need to see,
because is is there an alternative form of evidence that
would prove the Pelicans are thinking about their future in
different terms or does it all just come back to
Zion is kind of the barometer for where this organization
is headed or how it views itself.
Speaker 5: Well, I think I think that's the primary element. I
think the earlier point about trade that we actually entered
into was like that that is a secondary point of contention,
like where they think about him, like are they considering
moving him? If not? What is the long term plane.
Are they actually trying to that? I think to me
that's sort of a smoking gun if they're trying to
retain him and herb Jones for that matter, presume it's
because they want to make a move at some point,
like to position themselves. So going back to that point,
whether they're available or not, I think it's gonna lay
the bricks for the future and tell us what we
need to know.
Speaker 1: Do you and I guess we didn't really answer my
original question. Do you think that this change, the Willie
Green firing makes it any more likely that they would
explore or actually go down that path, or do you
just not assign any sort of value to them making
this decision when Yeah, I think I'm kind of with you.
I don't think that this changes how I think they
want to operate.
Speaker 4: God no, God no, are you.
Speaker 2: Ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 5: As you can tell I am, because there's just no,
there's not a whole lot more to say about this organization.
I will I will wrap this up by saying to
the fan base, we feel it. You know, we're sorry
for you. It's this is going to be a harsh path.
It's going to take years you're going to lose a
lot of your patients with this team, so like we
can allow you an amnesty for a couple of years.
Like you want to go join another fan base for
at least a couple of years, I think you should.
That'd be smart. Just abandon ship for a couple of
years until it's rebuilt. Yes, And to answer your question,
you can find my work over at Yahoo Sports, at Forbes,
at the NBA podcast. If you speak Danish, you can
find it at Buzz Repeater and catch my game.
Speaker 4: Coverage on each.
Speaker 2: Until next time.
Speaker 1: And as always, with the shout out to the one
actually wants your shout out to Belviso, shout out to
you del