WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with

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<v Speaker 1>patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey, welcome to the podcast. It's Carl Franklin

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<v Speaker 1>and Richard Campbell and Maddie Montaguilla. It's dot net rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>It's up, Richard, Maddie.

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<v Speaker 2>Good to be back home.

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<v Speaker 1>Galavander, Sir Galivant.

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<v Speaker 2>Spent a couple of weeks in Mexico and Acapoco, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>soaking up some sun because it's awful gray in the

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<v Speaker 2>in the Pacific northwest, right, and then stopped in Mexico

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<v Speaker 2>City to visit with Paul Throt and his wife. A

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<v Speaker 2>few days in Mexico City, and then we couldn't get out.

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<v Speaker 2>That's cool, because the Aero Rexico kept canceling our flights

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<v Speaker 2>over and over again, like two days running. I finally

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<v Speaker 2>just bought a ticket on Air Canada and did the

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<v Speaker 2>long way back to Vancouver through Toronto oh god. But

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<v Speaker 2>the issue was that it was foggy at YVR and

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<v Speaker 2>for what ever reason, Aero Mexico I guess they just

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<v Speaker 2>won't fly in the fog and the air Canada guys

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<v Speaker 2>are like, let's go. So they got home that way.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, I figured it out.

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<v Speaker 1>All right. Let's start with what happened in nineteen eighty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>This is episode nineteen hundred and eighty seven. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>we're moving closer to two thousand, which you probably know

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to do live at the party with Palermo. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>MVPVP seven And we've asked you for your little memories.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, yeah, stories, stories, Okay, okay. Nineteen eighty seven, Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>A bunch of things happened.

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<v Speaker 2>What are your favorites?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Black Monday happened, stock market.

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<v Speaker 2>Crash, right, a big market correction.

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<v Speaker 1>Dow Jones industrial average up twenty two point six percent

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<v Speaker 1>in a single day. Of the Princess Bride, Dirty Dancing.

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<v Speaker 1>Aretha Franklin became the first woman inducted into the Hall

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<v Speaker 1>of Fame. You two, Joshua Tree, Right, all good stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>easy music, yep, yep, yep. Let's see. British Airwaves was

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<v Speaker 1>privatized and listed on the London Stock Exchange. Ronald Reagan

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<v Speaker 1>and Mikhail Gorbachev meet to discuss nuclear disarmament.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, let's start in space, of course. We last

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<v Speaker 2>week's episode nineteen eighty six was the Challenger disaster, which

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<v Speaker 2>grounded all shuttles obviously, and began.

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<v Speaker 3>The geez, you guys have a tough few years here, huh.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was rough.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, although obviously there's no spacial flights in nineteen eighty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>this is when the Presidential Commission on the accident is

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<v Speaker 2>going on, they called the Rogers Commission, and the reports

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<v Speaker 2>and implementation are put out in nineteen eighty seven. It

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<v Speaker 2>starts with the solid rocket mooter redesign three to zero

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<v Speaker 2>rings instead of two, and a heater system to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that those seals never get so damaged. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>they challenge your incident was the most disastrous of the

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<v Speaker 2>problems with the solid rocketbuster, but it wasn't the only one,

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<v Speaker 2>and that technical solution worked, there would never be a

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<v Speaker 2>problem with the boosters.

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<v Speaker 1>Again.

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<v Speaker 2>The harder one was the cultural changes. So they were

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to have an independent safety organization, which they definitely

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<v Speaker 2>laid out on paper just didn't actually ever use it.

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<v Speaker 2>And then this concept that the Rodgers Cousoul talked about

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<v Speaker 2>of normalization of deviantce this sort of recognition that just

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<v Speaker 2>because you didn't have a disaster involving a problem doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean it's still not a problem. It should be immediately addressed.

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<v Speaker 2>So engineers supposed to be able to speak freely that

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<v Speaker 2>whenever you have an anomally you take it as a warning.

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<v Speaker 2>This obviously doesn't work, because we'll have the two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and three Columbia disaster where they had had lots of

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<v Speaker 2>flights where foam was coming off the external tank and

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<v Speaker 2>eventually punches a hole through the wing of Columbia and

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<v Speaker 2>dooms the vehicle. They also add the crew escape system,

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<v Speaker 2>so this is an escape This puts the shuttle astronauts

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<v Speaker 2>into proper pressure suits. Up until then they've been just

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<v Speaker 2>in flight suits, and also adds this escape pole out

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<v Speaker 2>of the hatch. In theory, during a disaster, you were

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to clear down to the lower deck where the

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<v Speaker 2>door was, blow the door out, this rod would come out,

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<v Speaker 2>they would hook to it. That raw would help fling

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<v Speaker 2>them beyond the reach of the shuttle so that they

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<v Speaker 2>could parachute to the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>Funny thing about explosions, though, you don't really have time

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<v Speaker 1>to do.

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<v Speaker 2>That, not a lot of time for any of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Plus most of the flight profile of the ascent does

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<v Speaker 2>not allow this to work. So even though they've added

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<v Speaker 2>all this complexity, most of the ascent was still non survivable.

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<v Speaker 1>So you think it was more like, hey, we can

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<v Speaker 1>spend money on safety watch.

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<v Speaker 2>This and one of the things you see overall and

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<v Speaker 2>the results of the Rogers Comission, we have all of

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<v Speaker 2>this in hindsight is mechanical they could do, they did,

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<v Speaker 2>and the cultural changes just they couldn't pull off. But

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<v Speaker 2>arguably the most important thing that comes from the Rogers

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<v Speaker 2>Commission is acknowledgement that the Special is not an airliner.

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<v Speaker 2>It should not be operated about an airliner and an

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<v Speaker 2>experimental vehicle. The flight rate should be much lower, lots

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<v Speaker 2>more testing done, which just raises the cost of all

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<v Speaker 2>the flights. And of course they would follow that with

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<v Speaker 2>much lower flight rates for a few years and then

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<v Speaker 2>crank them back up again as the demands for the

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<v Speaker 2>International Space Station so come into play. It's great that

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<v Speaker 2>and I went back and read this again. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>whole couple of paragraphs to talk about. Look, this was

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<v Speaker 2>not a technological failure. This was a cultural failure. And

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<v Speaker 2>the only real solution is to change the culture. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's the hardest thing to do. It's right in the dock,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's exactly what.

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<v Speaker 1>They couldn't do ultimately.

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<v Speaker 2>Other than that, Like, it's a pretty you think it

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<v Speaker 2>was a pretty slow space here, right, the Americans only

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<v Speaker 2>through three They had one flight of the last flight

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<v Speaker 2>of a Titan three B lifting an Air Force communication satellite.

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<v Speaker 2>There are two dental delta flights, one for a geostationary satellite,

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<v Speaker 2>one for a communication satellite. But then there's the Soviets.

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<v Speaker 2>It's nineteen eighty seven. It's kind of the height of

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<v Speaker 2>the Space Defense Initiative SDI aka star Wars. This is

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<v Speaker 2>something that Reagan announced in nineteen eighty three and was

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<v Speaker 2>formed in nineteen eighty four. It'll become the Missile Defense

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<v Speaker 2>Agency in another decade or so. It will never actually

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<v Speaker 2>fly any hardware. In fact, in eighty seven, the American

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<v Speaker 2>Physical Society concludes that the technologies that they're talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>which was flying all these little satellites that would track

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<v Speaker 2>and shoot down ICBMs, is decades away from being true,

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<v Speaker 2>but the Soviets don't know that, and they attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>test the defense system. This is the Energy A Rocket Booster.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the first flight of the Energy A Rocket Booster.

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<v Speaker 2>Obstensibly it was built for Barran, and Barran was the

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<v Speaker 2>Soviet space shuttle. It'll only fly once in eighty seven,

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<v Speaker 2>but its first flight. They because it can lift ninety

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<v Speaker 2>five metric tons like that's an incredible payload that basically

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<v Speaker 2>can't be matched at Saturn five level payloads. The most

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<v Speaker 2>powerful rocket the Soviets ever built. They lifted this vehicle

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<v Speaker 2>called Pollius.

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<v Speaker 1>It was supposed to just be a.

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<v Speaker 2>Test payload, but it wasn't. What it was was a

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<v Speaker 2>weapons platform carrying a megawat carbon dioxide laser, but it

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<v Speaker 2>never made it to orbit. It sounds spooky. It's dangerous,

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<v Speaker 2>is what it is, and the failure to get to

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<v Speaker 2>orbit is weird. The Energy of booster worked flawlessly, but

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<v Speaker 2>the vehicle was actually mounted in the launch platform backwards deliberately,

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<v Speaker 2>so as soon as it's separated from the booster, it

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<v Speaker 2>was supposed to turn around one hundred eighty degrees and

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<v Speaker 2>then boost itself to the rest away in the orbit

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<v Speaker 2>and instead of turning one hundred and eighty degrees, it

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<v Speaker 2>turned three hundred and sixty degrees and deorbited itself. The

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<v Speaker 2>debate is whether or not it was an accident, because

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<v Speaker 2>the argument here is as much as the Americans were

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<v Speaker 2>talking about defensive weapons systems in space, they had flown nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the first weapons platform ever deployed in the space,

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<v Speaker 2>again in contravention of the Outer Space Treaty of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty six. And so there's this whole subtext that maybe

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<v Speaker 2>when Gorbachev figured out what they were doing, insisted that

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<v Speaker 2>they make sure it doesn't get to orbit, and such

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<v Speaker 2>a simple thing to say, instead of turning one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and eighty turned three sixty, so that everything worked perfectly,

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<v Speaker 2>but it never flew. Now, a lot of the technology

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<v Speaker 2>was developing. The best argument I say in favor of

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<v Speaker 2>this is the fact that they didn't just build one

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<v Speaker 2>test platform. They had built a bunch of parts, all

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<v Speaker 2>the control systems, like a whole lot of them. The

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<v Speaker 2>laser actually came from an anti ballistic missile system was

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<v Speaker 2>supposed to fly on an aircraft, and those parts continued

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<v Speaker 2>to be used. The Mirror Space station, which had gone

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<v Speaker 2>up in nineteen eighty six, and I think I may

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<v Speaker 2>have failed to mention that a bunch of the additional

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<v Speaker 2>modules that went onto that all used parts from the

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<v Speaker 2>Polias project. In fact, even the two of the modules

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<v Speaker 2>are on the International Space Station their technologies directly derived

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<v Speaker 2>from this project. So this project was not experimental. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a large scale, long term project that got repurposed

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<v Speaker 2>away from being a weapon system.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I forget about writing the history of dot net.

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<v Speaker 1>You got to write a book about this and sell

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<v Speaker 1>the screenplay because it's just like, I'm like on the

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<v Speaker 1>edge of this is.

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<v Speaker 2>The craziest thing that ever happened that virtually nobody talks about.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've never heard about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you do it?

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<v Speaker 3>It is a full episode of this. Like, I don't

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<v Speaker 3>need the text any of it. I'll just sit and listen.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, we do space geek Out every year at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the year, but this wasn't on it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's mostly about current stuff, not this historical stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But Polyia stands by itself. It's insane what actually happened there. Well, also,

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<v Speaker 2>think about a Megawak class laser in nineteen eighty seven. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>like honestly star Trek stuff on the other tech side

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<v Speaker 2>of things. So this is the year that the GSM

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<v Speaker 2>standard gets formalized as the European Staminay for telephanites where

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<v Speaker 2>SMS comes from, text messages comes from. Of course, the

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<v Speaker 2>American standard the Quenee Center was the CDMA, which will

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately lose out to GSM worldwide. Of course it won't

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<v Speaker 2>reach this is only the standards point eight eighty seven

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<v Speaker 2>they producle. We're still market till the early nineteen nineties.

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<v Speaker 2>Computer wise, this is the year of the IBM PS two.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh boy.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a three eighty six megabyte machine. But the

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<v Speaker 2>important part of it is that it came standard with

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<v Speaker 2>three and a half inch floppies and the Vega video

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<v Speaker 2>standard videographics are right, really setting the standard for both those.

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<v Speaker 2>This was considered my IBM's push to try and get

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<v Speaker 2>control of the PS of the PC market that they

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<v Speaker 2>invented in lost large control. They sold more than a

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<v Speaker 2>million of these, like they did well when.

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<v Speaker 1>I had my first Vega card and monitor. The most

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<v Speaker 1>I was just thinking of this yesterday. The most amazing

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<v Speaker 1>thing was seeing a depiction or a scan of an

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<v Speaker 1>actual photograph that was beautiful. Yeah, and you know, like

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<v Speaker 1>a woods scene in winter or something like that, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was thinking, oh my god, we've come so far.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the color palette was so much larger. That was

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<v Speaker 2>like a big deal. It was a big deal. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is also the machine that you had a choice

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<v Speaker 2>between Windows two, which was released that year, and two

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<v Speaker 2>STAS four or O.

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<v Speaker 1>S two version one.

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<v Speaker 2>And Windows two was you know Windows when had been out,

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<v Speaker 2>like it was still pretty primitive. Guey, So OS two

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<v Speaker 2>is a reasonable option that So it's all the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of that. Uh yeah, I got three more for you.

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<v Speaker 2>Language wise, this is the year of Pearl. So Larry

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<v Speaker 2>Wall ships Pearl. He originally built it to do text

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<v Speaker 2>file parsing and report generation, but we know what it

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<v Speaker 2>really became. And this is the quoted term the duct

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<v Speaker 2>tape of the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>Well and also it reads like a cartoon character swear.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it was it's you know, it's it's just

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<v Speaker 2>it's a text parsing tool, right, which is perfect for

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<v Speaker 2>the Internet. But yeah, Pearl kept a lot of Internet working,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of websites functional, Like Larry Wall did us

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<v Speaker 2>all the service, but it's a very challenging. H here's

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<v Speaker 2>why Carl's going to love. This is the year that

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<v Speaker 2>the company called ad Lib from Quebec City is formed

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<v Speaker 2>to make the music synthesizer car, typically known as the car.

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<v Speaker 2>Right they will be bankrupt in five years.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Creative Labs flete at their lunch.

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<v Speaker 2>Creative Labs will clauter them. But they prove the market

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<v Speaker 2>or high quality PC back then.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>Now all motherboards come with audio, but back then they

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<v Speaker 1>did not. Right, you had to get an add on card.

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<v Speaker 2>One last one out of compu serve by a guy

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<v Speaker 2>named still will hedwork is Steve well Hide working for

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<v Speaker 2>the company creates a graphic graphics interchange format or JIFF,

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<v Speaker 2>not giff if not Yiff, because Steve himself the guy

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<v Speaker 2>it said, choosy developers choose.

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<v Speaker 1>Jeff come ondraschange format graphics.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just telling you what they created. But by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>guy died to COVID nineteen. That's a shame. But he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't he.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, wanted everyone to use it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's wheet and he was he bid to play on

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<v Speaker 2>choosey kids, choose Jiff, Yeah, choose Yeah, Yeah, that's choosy mom, Jeff, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, cheesy mount Jef says he used that same

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<v Speaker 2>line to get you to use this graphic format that

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<v Speaker 2>would where it's a it's a non resolution losing a

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<v Speaker 2>non destructive compression format like it was a great it's

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<v Speaker 2>still great. Anyway, there's my stories from nineteen eighty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, now that we've wasted thirteen and a half minutes

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<v Speaker 1>of your time, it was no waste.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I'm kidding, Sory, I talk too much about Poulias.

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<v Speaker 2>About my god, what a coolnes is is so cool.

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<v Speaker 1>That no, I'm serious that that's the best story I've

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<v Speaker 1>heard this year. And you know we're just getting started.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, so history of space geek outs let us know.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe I'll write a couple all.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, so let's roll the music for better no framework,

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<v Speaker 1>go all right, dude, what do you got? I got

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<v Speaker 1>something that Jeff Fritz and I wrote. Oh nice, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>Mattie's mouth just went open.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, oh yeah, No one's consuming, but I have a

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<v Speaker 3>feeling I know what this is. I'm very excited.

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<v Speaker 1>All right. So we basically have been experimenting with various

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<v Speaker 1>SEQL server MCP servers right because we want to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to ask our you know, copilot or other LLLM

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about this database and you know, and really

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<v Speaker 1>what it is, it's to allow a customer to ask

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<v Speaker 1>questions about a database and get a report. It turns

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<v Speaker 1>out that's a difficult problem and most of the MCP

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<v Speaker 1>servers that are out there all require you to hand

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<v Speaker 1>them a connection string, and I'm like, no, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want to give you my connection string. That's now I

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<v Speaker 1>got to put up all these guardrails and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>do all this other stuff tell you not to do,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know lllms don't always do what you tell

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<v Speaker 1>them not to do, or they switch that revers it.

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<v Speaker 1>So we came up with this idea that we want

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<v Speaker 1>to first generate a schema from a database connection string

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<v Speaker 1>in Jason and then create another Jason file that has

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<v Speaker 1>all the you know, tell us about your database, these

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<v Speaker 1>tables and what are the aliases that we can call

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<v Speaker 1>them the fields? Do they have aliases as well? What

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<v Speaker 1>fields are protected? And you should never return them? And

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<v Speaker 1>the whole idea is we want the LM to use

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<v Speaker 1>this data to create a system prompt, and from that

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<v Speaker 1>system prompt, it's got the schema and it's got all

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<v Speaker 1>the other information it does not have access to your database.

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<v Speaker 1>It will generate a select statement, not a delete, not

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<v Speaker 1>an insert, not an update, only a select statement. Fun

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<v Speaker 1>yeah yeah, and from that you can now you get

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<v Speaker 1>what you get. You got a select statement, you can

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<v Speaker 1>execute it. So the it's great because it's safe and

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<v Speaker 1>it's performance because you're doing all your loading up, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>on the fly beforehand, not on the fly, you're doing

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<v Speaker 1>it beforehand. But the problem is it takes a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of token so you know, if tokens.

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<v Speaker 2>You guys are gonna have to buy and All you

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<v Speaker 2>can Eat package To make this make sense, every developer

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<v Speaker 2>I talk about is really use these tools. You're not

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<v Speaker 2>only in the all you can Eat package for various services.

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<v Speaker 2>You're getting calls from a regular basis going what are

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<v Speaker 2>you doing?

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<v Speaker 4>Carol and I were talking about Sweetwater the music website before,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's like the rep that calls you and is

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<v Speaker 4>like you want to buy something? They need that for

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<v Speaker 4>like you know tokens, Now, hey you need some more tokens.

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<v Speaker 4>I saw you had a project.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got some tokens.

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<v Speaker 2>It certainly makes the case for some time in the

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<v Speaker 2>near future we're going to be back to running local

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<v Speaker 2>hardware to handle these things.

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<v Speaker 1>It's funny you should say that because I just ordered

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<v Speaker 1>a seven thousand dollars PC gaming PC just to run Olama.

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<v Speaker 1>And maybe I'll use the foundry when that when I

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<v Speaker 1>can figure that one out. But the whole idea, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>let's let's do this local, because then tokens aren't a problem,

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<v Speaker 1>not going to run out, and you know, now I

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<v Speaker 1>just need a BFI graphics card and a BF computer.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know I'm there, you go.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've already talking to development organizations where we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about putting together a couple of racks of machines, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're calling me because I actually used to do this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff and you can't find a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 2>do it anymore. Saying if we were buying some HP

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred, it's like laying out two or three racks

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<v Speaker 2>worth of gear for a team of thirty that's all shared,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, within can we keep it running? Doesn't make sense,

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<v Speaker 2>like this is actually more cost effective buying that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of equipment than it is to pay for it. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's like right now with the all you can eat

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<v Speaker 2>packages at that scale, it's not, but it will be

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<v Speaker 2>because this is all you think cannot continue, Well, the.

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<v Speaker 1>Other benefit, just besides tokens is keeping your data local. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>My customers don't want me sharing the data based schema

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<v Speaker 1>with you know, cloud based llms. So all right, well

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<v Speaker 1>it's called AVN Data Genie and it's on my GitHub.

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<v Speaker 1>So and also we did code it with AI episode

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen about this and you get to see it in

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<v Speaker 1>action and it's pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. Good on you guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, cool, that's what I got, Richard, who's talking to

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<v Speaker 1>us today?

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<v Speaker 2>I got to comment off show nineteen eighty one, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's the show we called The Role of AI and

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<v Speaker 2>Software Development came out just before Christmas. We had Jeff

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<v Speaker 2>with us and Bill Wilf and we did in front

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<v Speaker 2>of an audience which has been very rare. Yes, and

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<v Speaker 2>we had a really great group of people involved in

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<v Speaker 2>all that, and of course listened to a ton of comments,

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<v Speaker 2>not the least of which was ones going, boy, this

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<v Speaker 2>sounded like it was going to be a turkey but

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<v Speaker 2>it was really cool and thanks for that. So it's great,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, because it's awfully pretentious to talk that broadly,

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<v Speaker 2>but I thought we had the right people in.

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<v Speaker 1>The room, Like I agree, good conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>For it, and David grabbed on a comment that I said,

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<v Speaker 2>which was, lots of people going to get hurt, but

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's going to be us as rather naive.

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<v Speaker 2>In the long run, it'll all come out in the wash.

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<v Speaker 2>But right at this moment, developers are losing their job

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<v Speaker 2>at companies all over the world as CEOs have been

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<v Speaker 2>promised to dream where a large provider using unspecialized developers

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<v Speaker 2>along AI is a suitable replacement for their subject matter

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<v Speaker 2>experts in ten years time. I figured it'll all be

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<v Speaker 2>figured out, but that doesn't help developers today. Work for

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<v Speaker 2>companies have been sold a lot. You know, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>going to disagree with you, David, because it's not just developers.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of companies are using the excuse of AI to

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<v Speaker 2>layoff workers, and arguably some of them are even doing

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<v Speaker 2>experiments to see if this technology can actually replace workers,

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<v Speaker 2>and for the most part are failing because these aren't

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<v Speaker 2>replacement for workers, they are work enhancers like most automation is.

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<v Speaker 2>I would also point out that we saw weirdness in

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<v Speaker 2>developer employment before chat, GPT and the llms took off.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the pandemic RETAVOC and it seems like the

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<v Speaker 2>tech giants as a whole have been using the threat

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<v Speaker 2>of layoff almost as a weapon to keep their employees scared. Yep, right,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and which I find ridiculously offensive. But I

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<v Speaker 2>but it's working out for them. They all have record valuations.

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<v Speaker 2>Like God, I can't wait for I can't wait for

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<v Speaker 2>the a bubble land and just for people to get sane,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Like you know, the upside to a recession,

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<v Speaker 2>as a guy who went into the workforce in the

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<v Speaker 2>eighties during a recession, is that you focus on value,

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<v Speaker 2>and right now we really aren't. We're focused on speculation

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<v Speaker 2>and insane levels of growth that are unsustainable and damaging

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<v Speaker 2>and often stupid, and lots of people are being hurt.

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<v Speaker 2>But I made that comment. I don't think it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be asked what I was thinking long term in

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<v Speaker 2>the sense that we are used to building automation childs

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<v Speaker 2>for improving people's productivity and using automation kills for protype

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<v Speaker 2>and so we typically get to there faster than most

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<v Speaker 2>By your right, and I completely agree with you, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people can be hurt on the way.

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<v Speaker 4>Something about it is just like the multidisciplinaryness of it like,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm a PM, but I have a background in software

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<v Speaker 4>and so, you know the role of a PM is

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<v Speaker 4>kind of in jeopardy too, because the engineers have time

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<v Speaker 4>to actually care about the stuff that I care about now. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>and so it's really fascinating. But I do think, like

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it will come out in the wash. I

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<v Speaker 4>agree with that it's going to be painful, but I

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<v Speaker 4>think we'll be fine in the end. The engineers are

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<v Speaker 4>problem solvers, so solve the problem, guys, you'll figure out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You know, the Internet shook everything up. They move

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<v Speaker 2>to mobiles, shook everything up. The cloud shake and everything up,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were job losses all across those you know,

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<v Speaker 2>making run as through the migration to cloud. The number

420
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.519
<v Speaker 2>of assisted men's going. They're letting me go because they

421
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.359
<v Speaker 2>think the cloud will run it all for them. Then

422
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.640
<v Speaker 2>got hired back in one form or another, but also

423
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.720
<v Speaker 2>with their skills and mindset changed. You know, my job

424
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>isn't to rack and stack servers anymore, it's to manage them. Yeah, David,

425
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.480
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for your comment. Obviously it's an

426
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.559
<v Speaker 2>ongoing topic. It's going to be all through shows in

427
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>the next few years as this settles out. So we

428
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:00.440
<v Speaker 2>appreciate your feedback and a copy of music Bias on

429
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:01.680
<v Speaker 2>its way to you. And if you'd like a copy

430
00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:03.480
<v Speaker 2>of Music co Buying, write a comment on the website

431
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:05.759
<v Speaker 2>at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We

432
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:07.559
<v Speaker 2>publish every show there. Any comment there and I read

433
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:08.720
<v Speaker 2>it on the show, we'll send you a copy of

434
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:09.240
<v Speaker 2>music Cobe.

435
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, now we can talk to Maddie and I'll introduce her.

436
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Formerly Mattie. You heard her chiming in there. Mattie Montague

437
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.039
<v Speaker 1>is a senior product manager at Microsoft and the product

438
00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.640
<v Speaker 1>lead for Aspire. She's been building dev tools at Microsoft

439
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.920
<v Speaker 1>since twenty eighteen. Before Aspires, she worked across the dot

440
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.799
<v Speaker 1>net stack and brought dot net Maui to life. Maddie

441
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.559
<v Speaker 1>has been obsessed with making developers' lives easier ever since

442
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.640
<v Speaker 1>her first dev tools internship, where she realized that perfectly

443
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.799
<v Speaker 1>combined her high tech background with her passion for product development. Officially,

444
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.119
<v Speaker 1>welcome back to dot net rocks.

445
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 3>Yay, thank you. I'm excited to be back.

446
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:48.519
<v Speaker 4>I gotta tell you, I think the last time I

447
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.319
<v Speaker 4>was here was like three or four years ago, and

448
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:52.640
<v Speaker 4>it was an in person recording.

449
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.440
<v Speaker 1>No, it wasn't three or four years ago? Was last

450
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:58.039
<v Speaker 1>year at a dev intersection where you and I aspirefied

451
00:22:58.119 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 1>dot Net Rocks.

452
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:04.680
<v Speaker 2>Well that was oh though, that was a Rocks episode. Yeah, right,

453
00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:11.720
<v Speaker 2>you and David talking about Maui. Yes, maybe it's Doug.

454
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that's right. And we got to jam.

455
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah we did. Oh my gosh, I was crazy. I

456
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:18.200
<v Speaker 3>would love to do that again.

457
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.599
<v Speaker 4>Now now that I've I've dug into your repertoire much

458
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.599
<v Speaker 4>more so, I think I can keep up with you

459
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:25.559
<v Speaker 4>and Chip Now.

460
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 2>When I knew you were moving over to Aspire, literally

461
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.400
<v Speaker 2>my reaction is, oh, I guess it's going to be

462
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.599
<v Speaker 2>a real product. Is now it's going to have adult supervision,

463
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:36.240
<v Speaker 2>like somebody has to rain and Fowler goodness knows. And

464
00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.799
<v Speaker 2>then one thing I know about Maddie is she can. Yes,

465
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.640
<v Speaker 2>she could wrestle these guys of the crowd. They're scared

466
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 2>to death of her.

467
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.359
<v Speaker 4>Yes, it's I now say my favorite my favorite pastime

468
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.599
<v Speaker 4>is arguing with Fowler and Damien. It's like the highlight

469
00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:51.079
<v Speaker 4>of every day.

470
00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:54.880
<v Speaker 2>You've made whole shows around exactly that.

471
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:57.640
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean when I when I was looking at

472
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.920
<v Speaker 4>moving because MAUI touling kind of was in a good place.

473
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.160
<v Speaker 4>I was like, I need to do the next thing, right, Like,

474
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.039
<v Speaker 4>what do I do? I don't, I can't. Dave does

475
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.920
<v Speaker 4>so much. I did so much, Like we have these

476
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.920
<v Speaker 4>junior pms that were coming up Maui And this was

477
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 4>like two years ago, and I had like a crisis

478
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.039
<v Speaker 4>of faith and I was like, I need something new,

479
00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 4>and so I went to my SKIP and I was like,

480
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.119
<v Speaker 4>the only thing I'm interested in working on is this

481
00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.000
<v Speaker 4>Aspire thing, because they clearly have no idea what they're doing.

482
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:23.680
<v Speaker 4>They're building something cool, but I don't know what it is.

483
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:27.599
<v Speaker 4>But I don't know anything about.

484
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.000
<v Speaker 3>The cloud, so it's probably not a good fit.

485
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.640
<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of an asset coming in because you

486
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.400
<v Speaker 2>don't you know, there's an awful lot of the people

487
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:37.519
<v Speaker 2>who need Aspire who also don't know.

488
00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.160
<v Speaker 4>This right right, And so he was like, well, you know,

489
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:42.319
<v Speaker 4>there's a lot of strong personalities on the team, and

490
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:44.720
<v Speaker 4>I was like those two, Yeah, okay.

491
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.119
<v Speaker 2>That's that's what you call strong personality. Okay, so yeah,

492
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 2>there's the least of your concerns.

493
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:53.119
<v Speaker 4>About a month in my now manager Glenn, who's you know,

494
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:54.759
<v Speaker 4>also been around and was part of the dot net

495
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:55.880
<v Speaker 4>core thing with the two of them.

496
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.000
<v Speaker 3>But Damien Power, Yeah, he's the best, he says to me.

497
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 3>He goes.

498
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:02.079
<v Speaker 4>It turns out all we needed was to put someone

499
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:12.200
<v Speaker 4>from Boston on this team. He was like, it's so funny.

500
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.640
<v Speaker 4>You know, you're just you're just not You're not very

501
00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:16.400
<v Speaker 4>You just don't deal with you don't put up with it.

502
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:17.599
<v Speaker 4>I was like, yeah, I'm very.

503
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you would be correct.

504
00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:22.680
<v Speaker 2>And and my experience dealing with Damian and David, I'm

505
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:23.559
<v Speaker 2>sure they're delighted.

506
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:24.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh they're the.

507
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Best, absolutely the best.

508
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:27.880
<v Speaker 4>They're like my two big brothers. I swear like I

509
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:30.680
<v Speaker 4>rib them like a baby sister and they totally take it.

510
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.839
<v Speaker 3>And I've learned so much.

511
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.559
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, but I guess that this puts you on

512
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the spot. Then it's now it's your turn. Define Aspire

513
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 2>to us. What is this?

514
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:44.799
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Aspire as a tool for building apps, for streamlining

515
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.000
<v Speaker 4>app dev local first all the way through to the end.

516
00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:49.480
<v Speaker 3>And it's type safe.

517
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.119
<v Speaker 4>So it is a is a type safe manifest it

518
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:56.400
<v Speaker 4>is a CLI. It's a set of packages that you

519
00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:00.640
<v Speaker 4>can use to build a what we say distribute an app.

520
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.799
<v Speaker 4>But that's a website with the database, right, like at

521
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.160
<v Speaker 4>the end of the.

522
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:07.119
<v Speaker 1>Day, and I called it, I think I still do

523
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.359
<v Speaker 1>a visual studio template on steroids.

524
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.759
<v Speaker 4>That's I mean, that's a pretty good way to put it.

525
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:17.000
<v Speaker 4>It's it's you know, it's a project runner, it's all

526
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.799
<v Speaker 4>these different things. It's it's a it's a socker composed

527
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:21.960
<v Speaker 4>but like times a million.

528
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.119
<v Speaker 2>Because it's also re entrant, right, I mean, the templates

529
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:25.759
<v Speaker 2>always a starting point and then you have to go

530
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.920
<v Speaker 2>on from there and you're never going back, but you

531
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 2>can still go back to the Aspire tools and tweak

532
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:32.680
<v Speaker 2>things and right, you're not going to destroy the work

533
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:33.079
<v Speaker 2>you've done.

534
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, happy to tell you that a V and data

535
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Jenie was done with Aspire. Good. Yeah, yeah, of course

536
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:39.839
<v Speaker 1>Jeff worked on it.

537
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.759
<v Speaker 2>And you two did that aspire ify dot net rocks,

538
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:45.400
<v Speaker 2>yes at their last fall, which is hilarious.

539
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:47.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we do those. We do streams on Friday. It's

540
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:48.200
<v Speaker 3>the shameless plug.

541
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:51.200
<v Speaker 4>So Me, Fowler, Damien and the cast of characters from

542
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:54.359
<v Speaker 4>the team usually will pick people's apps up and try

543
00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:56.799
<v Speaker 4>to add Aspire to them or implement a feature or whatever,

544
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.559
<v Speaker 4>and it's always a complete mess and it's very funny.

545
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:02.759
<v Speaker 4>And now we play bingo during it, because there are

546
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 4>just certain things that happen every time.

547
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so.

548
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.240
<v Speaker 2>You get a card and who hits all of their

549
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.599
<v Speaker 2>talking points first or you know, yeah, no.

550
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:13.880
<v Speaker 3>One of them is like Maddie swears that happened regularly.

551
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.079
<v Speaker 2>You can put that in the center because that one's

552
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>gonna have an air.

553
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:20.799
<v Speaker 4>One of them is Fouler going wait pause, wait pause.

554
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.000
<v Speaker 4>So we have a good time on this.

555
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.400
<v Speaker 2>But it's brilliant. Yeah, it's great to see the team. Hey,

556
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:31.759
<v Speaker 2>they're all lovely people, and like, these are the people

557
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.880
<v Speaker 2>making your product. Yeah, and you put yourselves into jeopardy

558
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.359
<v Speaker 2>every time, Like, I presume the product gets better from

559
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:38.200
<v Speaker 2>this practice.

560
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:39.160
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah.

561
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 4>We had someone ask us like, so, do you guys

562
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:44.319
<v Speaker 4>do it just because you like want to make the

563
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:45.119
<v Speaker 4>product look good?

564
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:49.240
<v Speaker 3>And we were like, no, make the product look good.

565
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 2>It would not be this, no way more plan than that.

566
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.039
<v Speaker 2>But but we've seen this over and over again on

567
00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.839
<v Speaker 2>doing various live things. It's like eating it on stage

568
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 2>is good gets good because it's life. Yeah, we all

569
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.960
<v Speaker 2>eat it, yeah, right, and fighting through that and getting

570
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.200
<v Speaker 2>out the other side. That's how you learn to trust stuff.

571
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:08.039
<v Speaker 2>It's like, sure, it's not going to be easy, but

572
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:08.799
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna get there.

573
00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:09.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

574
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:13.599
<v Speaker 1>So Aspired debuted with dot net eight, right, and then

575
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:18.319
<v Speaker 1>in dot net nine more stuff, and in dot net ten,

576
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.000
<v Speaker 1>more and more stuff. So maybe we should go through

577
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 1>some of the things that have evolved and Aspire since

578
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:25.240
<v Speaker 1>dot net eight.

579
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, when dot net eight happened, we didn't have chat GPT.

580
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:38.839
<v Speaker 4>It changed a lot, and so Aspire distributed apps, right

581
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:45.519
<v Speaker 4>like now AI is just a new type of distributed

582
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:47.759
<v Speaker 4>app endpoint or back end or whatever you want to

583
00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:48.160
<v Speaker 4>call it.

584
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:51.279
<v Speaker 3>And so Aspire like kind of accidentally.

585
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:56.400
<v Speaker 4>Made a really good story for that, Like you were

586
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.559
<v Speaker 4>talking about foundry and getting that running locally, Like, it's

587
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:01.079
<v Speaker 4>a pain to integrate with an exist app and stack.

588
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.960
<v Speaker 4>It's good to have it running in isolation, but once

589
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.599
<v Speaker 4>you need to build it into it a system, it's

590
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.359
<v Speaker 4>way more complicated. And Aspire basically turns it into another API,

591
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.759
<v Speaker 4>like another project, right Like it totally simplifies that. The

592
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.160
<v Speaker 4>other thing is we dropped the name dot net from

593
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:17.640
<v Speaker 4>the title.

594
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:18.680
<v Speaker 2>Just call it Aspire.

595
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:19.920
<v Speaker 3>That's the big thing that's happened.

596
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:23.640
<v Speaker 4>Just call it Aspire because we're the dot net team,

597
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.240
<v Speaker 4>you know, we don't pretend, but everyone writes apps in

598
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.240
<v Speaker 4>multiple languages, Like, once you get to a company of

599
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:31.920
<v Speaker 4>a certain size, there's no way that they standardize on

600
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:32.640
<v Speaker 4>one language.

601
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:34.400
<v Speaker 3>It's just not reasonable.

602
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.440
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, at the minimum you were running C

603
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 2>sharp and sequel at the best of times like this.

604
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.160
<v Speaker 2>But the reality is there's probably some JavaScript. I bet

605
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 2>there's some JavaScript like that's kind of unavoidable.

606
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.440
<v Speaker 4>And with with AI pythons everywhere because people are writing you.

607
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:51.839
<v Speaker 3>Know, JANKI scripts that make something do something.

608
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:54.839
<v Speaker 2>No, and if you've got some badass optimizers, they've written

609
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.240
<v Speaker 2>some C plus plus some rust and step get interface

610
00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:58.559
<v Speaker 2>in front of it so you don't have to touch it.

611
00:29:58.680 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

612
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>If you got some weird sunk guys that are out

613
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.000
<v Speaker 2>there with some little Haskell or some f sharp, and

614
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>again it's just an interface. You off, you go, Yeah,

615
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:08.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't care about your language. Yeah, just wherek in

616
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.880
<v Speaker 2>which you're most effective at and give me an API.

617
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:11.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm good to go.

618
00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:12.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

619
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:13.880
<v Speaker 4>And so you know, we were calling it dot Net

620
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.400
<v Speaker 4>Aspire because it was started for dot net, and then

621
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.559
<v Speaker 4>we thought, yeah, job with her front end Python whatever.

622
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.200
<v Speaker 4>Obviously I'm sure you too are fully aware because your

623
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:25.119
<v Speaker 4>show is literally called dot Net Rocks that a lot

624
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:28.680
<v Speaker 4>of people don't understand that dot net is cross platform,

625
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:32.799
<v Speaker 4>open source still still. So yeah, we did a user

626
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:34.960
<v Speaker 4>studies when I had just switched over to Aspire. One

627
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.759
<v Speaker 4>of the PM's in our team, Claudia, was running them.

628
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:40.240
<v Speaker 4>She was actually trying to get us to completely rebrand

629
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.440
<v Speaker 4>and we were like, that's no, like, it's we.

630
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:43.200
<v Speaker 3>Can figure this out.

631
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:47.400
<v Speaker 4>But she, uh, she had someone do like an interview

632
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.720
<v Speaker 4>and she was like, what what would you think about

633
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:51.440
<v Speaker 4>if someone asked you if you could, like, you know,

634
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:53.319
<v Speaker 4>do a job where there's dot net. And they were like, well,

635
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:54.720
<v Speaker 4>I don't know how to write like a linked list

636
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.839
<v Speaker 4>from scratch or anything, so I could never And I

637
00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:57.200
<v Speaker 4>was like.

638
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:01.920
<v Speaker 1>Girl, what, that's crazy, that's the opposite direction. Yeah, I

639
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>didn't say assembler, Yeah I know.

640
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:06.880
<v Speaker 4>And so there's all these crazy misconceptions, and so these

641
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:09.079
<v Speaker 4>dot net teams were pulling in Aspire left on the

642
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 4>right because it's this crazy good onboarding tool. It's this

643
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:14.759
<v Speaker 4>crazy good like code safe tool now with agentic dev.

644
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:19.160
<v Speaker 4>It gives Copilot Guardrails or clod Or or your agent dujor,

645
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:22.640
<v Speaker 4>and it gives it a really easy way to talk

646
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.279
<v Speaker 4>to the running all the different running pieces in their

647
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.960
<v Speaker 4>logs and everything. We have this MCP. It's just like phenomenal.

648
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.720
<v Speaker 4>But the JavaScript teams were like, we're not touching that.

649
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:31.880
<v Speaker 4>Let's gross.

650
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:34.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and so we were like, we have to we

651
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:38.000
<v Speaker 3>have to kill the dot net to save the dot

652
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.160
<v Speaker 3>net in it. That's what we did, and we build

653
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:43.279
<v Speaker 3>the features into dot net.

654
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, aspires a good name.

655
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's hard to google, but it is a good name.

656
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.839
<v Speaker 4>And now we have aspired dot dev the domain, so

657
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:53.720
<v Speaker 4>that's the handle, so that works out, you know, put

658
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:54.680
<v Speaker 4>on my social media.

659
00:31:54.759 --> 00:32:01.400
<v Speaker 1>We're out of the long multi syllabic foundation era of

660
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.519
<v Speaker 1>naming tools and I'm glad.

661
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.039
<v Speaker 4>Well the only reason they got dot net aspire is

662
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:07.599
<v Speaker 4>because they put dot net in front of it. So

663
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.319
<v Speaker 4>we had to go back to the table and be

664
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 4>like it's such a generic term, it doesn't matter. Took

665
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.799
<v Speaker 4>a time, wow, Yeah, but it's been it's been a

666
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.519
<v Speaker 4>crazy journey. And now we're looking at like how we

667
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:24.119
<v Speaker 4>can break further into those other ecosystems, including like could

668
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.359
<v Speaker 4>you have the app host itself written in typescript and

669
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:31.039
<v Speaker 4>it Jason our PCs to dot net as the thing

670
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.279
<v Speaker 4>that's actually orchestrating everything and kicking it off, so we

671
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.039
<v Speaker 4>don't have to rebuild as fire. But we're basically like,

672
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:37.839
<v Speaker 4>could we have like a typescript shim so you don't

673
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:39.920
<v Speaker 4>even have to have a C sharp file? Like how

674
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:43.759
<v Speaker 4>much trojan horsing can we do just to get to

675
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:47.440
<v Speaker 4>a place to help you exactly, just to help you

676
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:49.400
<v Speaker 4>help yourself. You can lead a horse to water, but

677
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.640
<v Speaker 4>you can't make it's all the dot net run time,

678
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:55.480
<v Speaker 4>kind of.

679
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:58.240
<v Speaker 1>Like we need to dig a break. Yeah, let's do that.

680
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back after these very important messages. Hey

681
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:06.519
<v Speaker 1>Carl here. You probably know text Control is a powerful

682
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.720
<v Speaker 1>library for document editing and PDF generation, but did you

683
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.799
<v Speaker 1>know they're also a strong supporter of the developer community.

684
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.680
<v Speaker 1>It's part of their mission to build and support a

685
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:21.119
<v Speaker 1>strong developer community by being present, listening to users, and

686
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:25.039
<v Speaker 1>sharing knowledge at conferences across Europe and the United States.

687
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.480
<v Speaker 1>So if you're heading to a conference soon, check if

688
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.519
<v Speaker 1>text Control will be there and stop buy to say hi.

689
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:36.039
<v Speaker 1>You can find their full conference calendar at dubdubdub dot

690
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.319
<v Speaker 1>textcontrol dot com and make sure you thank them for

691
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:46.240
<v Speaker 1>supporting dot net rocks and we're back. It's dot net

692
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:49.279
<v Speaker 1>rocks I'm Carl Franklin, That's Richard Campbell, Hey, and that's

693
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:53.160
<v Speaker 1>Mattie Montague and we're talking to Spire. Yeah, Aspire. I

694
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.880
<v Speaker 1>asked you like about the sort of the evolution from

695
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.799
<v Speaker 1>dot net eight and into nine and ten, and you

696
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:03.640
<v Speaker 1>know where were the most significant updates in that evolution.

697
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:06.279
<v Speaker 3>Well, we we've been moving fast.

698
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.960
<v Speaker 4>I think the first big thing that was a huge

699
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:12.800
<v Speaker 4>change was the CLI.

700
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:18.920
<v Speaker 3>We shipped a CLI and so we we were like.

701
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:22.400
<v Speaker 4>You know, why do I have to why can't we

702
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:24.039
<v Speaker 4>have a tool like everybod else everybody has a CLI tool.

703
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:24.599
<v Speaker 3>That'd be fun.

704
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:27.400
<v Speaker 4>Now you can just Aspire run instead of dot Net run,

705
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.679
<v Speaker 4>appost project or whatever it is. And that was the

706
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:33.880
<v Speaker 4>first kind of custom Aspire experience for tooling we built

707
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.360
<v Speaker 4>that wasn't just like the VS stuff and the extensions

708
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:39.480
<v Speaker 4>and whatever that was that was crazy.

709
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:41.519
<v Speaker 3>We did not know what we were getting into, but

710
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:45.000
<v Speaker 3>we got into it. That was probably the first big.

711
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.000
<v Speaker 4>Shift from the original Aspire, right, Like I think everything

712
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.440
<v Speaker 4>that shipped originally was crazy, and the iterations on it

713
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.400
<v Speaker 4>have been insane, Like the amount that just the integrations,

714
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:57.599
<v Speaker 4>like the packages that have our opinions in them. The

715
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.719
<v Speaker 4>a month that those have grown and matured is a lot.

716
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:01.599
<v Speaker 4>It's been a super incremental.

717
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's interesting to have that development angle of

718
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:08.039
<v Speaker 2>it's opinionated in the sense of thinking distributed specifically, you know,

719
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.960
<v Speaker 2>ideally for cloud right, that sort of cloud native mindset

720
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:13.760
<v Speaker 2>where you're pulling in services and so forth, and so

721
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:15.599
<v Speaker 2>it kind of gives you a set of scaffolds to

722
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:18.079
<v Speaker 2>go down the right path on that, yeah, which is

723
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:22.559
<v Speaker 2>very language and platform agnostic actually, but it is still opinionated, right.

724
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.559
<v Speaker 2>And the funny part now is that and then AI

725
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:27.760
<v Speaker 2>stuff shows up and you know what it needs.

726
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:30.000
<v Speaker 3>Opinions, opinions guardrails.

727
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, like you're just trying a right place right time.

728
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>If I'm sticking an LM in the playpen of Aspire,

729
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.559
<v Speaker 2>it likely not hurt me less, Like it needs those

730
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:44.519
<v Speaker 2>opinions to kind of do the right thing. I'm trying

731
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.159
<v Speaker 2>to get to a nice cloud native design, thinks yep.

732
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.039
<v Speaker 2>And here's a set of guardrails, yep.

733
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 4>And it has a hard time managing like multiple terminal processes.

734
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:55.519
<v Speaker 4>So it's like instead of NPM run and Docker and

735
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.239
<v Speaker 4>the boat, it just Aspire runs it. It's one command, right,

736
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:01.760
<v Speaker 4>and so the CLI accidentally really helped us with that too.

737
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 4>And then the next big thing we shipped a version

738
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:05.920
<v Speaker 4>of co.

739
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.159
<v Speaker 1>Pilot, and that's the az Dev cl I.

740
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:11.599
<v Speaker 4>No, the Aspire Cli, the Aspire Cli, Aspire if you

741
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:15.199
<v Speaker 4>will Aspire run. We have shirts that say it.

742
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>I got two new Englanders on the show at the

743
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:18.480
<v Speaker 2>same time.

744
00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:23.440
<v Speaker 1>I get all this accentrific for you, wicked piss.

745
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:25.440
<v Speaker 4>And then but a year ago we started working on

746
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:27.719
<v Speaker 4>co pilot in the dashboard because we were like, well,

747
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.400
<v Speaker 4>everyone has a chat now that you ask questions. MCP

748
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:33.800
<v Speaker 4>hadn't really become I don't know if you saw this

749
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 4>the other day, Miguel posted MCP as the new soap, right,

750
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:42.679
<v Speaker 4>that's unfortunately, very good tweet Miguel, He's right, but it

751
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:44.800
<v Speaker 4>wasn't a real thing yet. So we were like James

752
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 4>Newton king on our team, like went away from the

753
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:48.239
<v Speaker 4>holidays and came back and was like, so I built

754
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.440
<v Speaker 4>a co pilot in the dashboard and we were like what.

755
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.679
<v Speaker 4>So we shipped that and by the time that was

756
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.119
<v Speaker 4>out the door, MCP had started to catch on. And

757
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 4>now we have an Aspire MCP and so that will

758
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:01.320
<v Speaker 4>you know, can to the dashboard and it can talk

759
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.400
<v Speaker 4>to all of your resources at once from whatever your

760
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.199
<v Speaker 4>coding agent environment is. And those have been the really

761
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.480
<v Speaker 4>I think to me, those have been the really big

762
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.880
<v Speaker 4>moments of like things that we've shipped that have completely

763
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.079
<v Speaker 4>changed what Aspire was since we started.

764
00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:19.920
<v Speaker 3>There's a zillion incremental things, and there's a lot.

765
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 4>Of under the hood stuff in the app post that changed,

766
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.239
<v Speaker 4>and how we actually run things. We overhauled our JavaScript

767
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.960
<v Speaker 4>and Python support so they actually felt like more natural.

768
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:32.559
<v Speaker 4>That was a really fun exercise in untraining ourselves from

769
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:34.480
<v Speaker 4>all of the things we thought are true, and also

770
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:38.039
<v Speaker 4>writing casing completely differently because JavaScript is the camel case.

771
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

772
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Nice, Yeah, But I got a question, Okay, why thirteen?

773
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:44.880
<v Speaker 3>Because why not?

774
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.000
<v Speaker 1>I could think of a bunch of why not? Now

775
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:49.480
<v Speaker 1>what exactly you're talking about?

776
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.519
<v Speaker 2>Like you put out dot Net ten and so you

777
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.000
<v Speaker 2>figured you have Aspire ten and said we get Aspire thirteen.

778
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:00.360
<v Speaker 3>No, No, because all you people, and I'm saying this with.

779
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Love, who do you call you people?

780
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:06.320
<v Speaker 4>You people, the people of the dot net community. All

781
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.159
<v Speaker 4>you people kept going, well, I can't use as fire

782
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:10.840
<v Speaker 4>or nine because I'm on dot net eight. And we

783
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:13.239
<v Speaker 4>were like, it doesn't matter. We just sinked up versions

784
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.519
<v Speaker 4>because it was easier, and everyone was like, well, when

785
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.320
<v Speaker 4>as Fire ten comes out, I can't upgrade to dot

786
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 4>net ten, or like dot Net nine is in an

787
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 4>LTS release, so I can't use a fire And we're like,

788
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:24.960
<v Speaker 4>doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. So we said we're going

789
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.159
<v Speaker 4>to change the version. I wanted to go back to one.

790
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:29.960
<v Speaker 4>I thought that would be cool instead of dot Net

791
00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:31.639
<v Speaker 4>Aspire nine. It'd be a spy.

792
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:34.440
<v Speaker 1>So you figured you wouldn't get any emails saying I

793
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.440
<v Speaker 1>can't wait till dot Net thirteen.

794
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:37.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

795
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.599
<v Speaker 4>Well that and we were sitting in a meeting and

796
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:41.880
<v Speaker 4>I was talking about it, and they were like, you

797
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:45.400
<v Speaker 4>can't on you can't downgrade, and you get package even

798
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:47.599
<v Speaker 4>if it's a newer urion, right, so we'd have to

799
00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.800
<v Speaker 4>break all of our packages. Yeah, you have to get

800
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.239
<v Speaker 4>So we were like, well we had to go higher

801
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:54.280
<v Speaker 4>than ten. Eleven feels like we're just kind of like, WHOA,

802
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:54.840
<v Speaker 4>I don't want.

803
00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:56.920
<v Speaker 3>To be ten? Yeah, and why would you pick twelve

804
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.440
<v Speaker 3>when thirteen is right there? Like that's way more fun.

805
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.360
<v Speaker 4>This is the reasoning, this is the actual reasoning. We

806
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.320
<v Speaker 4>were sitting I love it, and I was in a

807
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:06.239
<v Speaker 4>room actually in Seattle. I was out there and we

808
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:08.760
<v Speaker 4>had Mitch, who's in Australia, on the phone and he goes,

809
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:11.159
<v Speaker 4>why don't we just do thirteen? And me and him

810
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:13.079
<v Speaker 4>like lock, I aswer the team's call, and I'm like

811
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:14.440
<v Speaker 4>this is terrible.

812
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah and brilliant. Screw them.

813
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:18.519
<v Speaker 4>I remember coming home and my husband was like, why

814
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:20.000
<v Speaker 4>did they let you make decisions?

815
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:24.199
<v Speaker 3>Like you should not go out decisions? And I was like,

816
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:24.679
<v Speaker 3>it's great.

817
00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:26.480
<v Speaker 4>And then we you know, we made stickers with little

818
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:28.719
<v Speaker 4>black cats on them, and we're like super into it.

819
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.119
<v Speaker 4>We're going to do something for Friday the thirteenth, and

820
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:33.280
<v Speaker 4>there's two of this year, there's February and March.

821
00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:35.119
<v Speaker 3>Right, we don't know what we're gonna do yet, we're

822
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:35.679
<v Speaker 3>gonna do something.

823
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:37.599
<v Speaker 1>At the next meeting where you're thinking about a name

824
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:39.119
<v Speaker 1>for something, bring up Duncan.

825
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I like that.

826
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:44.320
<v Speaker 4>The real question now is like what's the next version,

827
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:45.920
<v Speaker 4>Like do we go to fourteen or do we stick with.

828
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.199
<v Speaker 3>Only be primes? We could go to seventeen.

829
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, rules, that's it.

830
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.360
<v Speaker 1>I love it. Only primes that's great.

831
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.360
<v Speaker 2>But I to your point, this is the version we

832
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:03.400
<v Speaker 2>adumpt the dot net name where you focus on things

833
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:06.719
<v Speaker 2>like Python and JavaScript, being first cross members like you're

834
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:11.079
<v Speaker 2>being the Aspire you want to be and tying yourself

835
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:14.000
<v Speaker 2>to version numbers is bad. It's just really bad. Yeah.

836
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Were there any significant bug fixes in the last version. Yeah, okay,

837
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:21.920
<v Speaker 1>we have.

838
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.119
<v Speaker 4>We're I've learned to be proud of our bug debt

839
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:29.079
<v Speaker 4>because that moves that we're moving fast, which you're kind

840
00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:31.400
<v Speaker 4>of have toy right now. There will be a contraction

841
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:34.480
<v Speaker 4>phase where everybody goes and makes quality the most important

842
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:36.559
<v Speaker 4>thing again. And we've done that kind of periodically over

843
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:38.320
<v Speaker 4>the last year, like we've taken a release or two

844
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 4>to just be like bug fixes only. There were a

845
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:48.519
<v Speaker 4>lot of weird things with SERTs and getting open telemetry

846
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:53.159
<v Speaker 4>wired up, especially cross language, and Damien and David Negstad

847
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:58.800
<v Speaker 4>and Carol on our developer control Plane team, they also

848
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.239
<v Speaker 4>have spent a ton of work basic like figuring out

849
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:06.199
<v Speaker 4>how to optimize devserts for all different languages, container orized

850
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:11.360
<v Speaker 4>or not without being too heavy handed on your machine.

851
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.079
<v Speaker 4>And it was I have no idea, I have no

852
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:15.840
<v Speaker 4>idea how they made it work, but they made it work,

853
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:17.480
<v Speaker 4>and so it's kind of a feature.

854
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:19.400
<v Speaker 3>But it felt like a bug fix.

855
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.039
<v Speaker 4>Because you would run something that you'd think would work

856
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:22.880
<v Speaker 4>and it didn't.

857
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but it's very much how you actually serve developers

858
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.239
<v Speaker 2>as you go where they are, and the sart strategy

859
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that a Python developer may be using in his organization.

860
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:36.760
<v Speaker 2>If you're not supporting it, that guy's out. Yeah, you're gone.

861
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:42.000
<v Speaker 2>You can't interfere with my right plumbing, right, the homework

862
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.320
<v Speaker 2>of whatevery, you know, because he barely understood when we

863
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:47.639
<v Speaker 2>got set up in the first place. Nobody understands. That's

864
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:50.320
<v Speaker 2>just reality. But if you don't work with their sert strategy,

865
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>they're out.

866
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:52.679
<v Speaker 4>It has been fun to see how spoiled we are

867
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.760
<v Speaker 4>as dot net developers, Like we all love to complain,

868
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:56.639
<v Speaker 4>you know, we're developers.

869
00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:57.199
<v Speaker 3>We complain.

870
00:41:57.320 --> 00:41:59.920
<v Speaker 4>But you have dot net devserts and you just run

871
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 4>the thing and it just does the thing right. Nobody

872
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:06.760
<v Speaker 4>else has that wow, or there's you know, eighteen million

873
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:10.599
<v Speaker 4>branches of how it works, and something like typescript or

874
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.760
<v Speaker 4>gihon a script it's like, oh, you could do it

875
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:13.000
<v Speaker 4>this way, or you could do this way, or you

876
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:14.280
<v Speaker 4>could do it this way, or you could just set

877
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.159
<v Speaker 4>this environment variable. That just makes it so that no

878
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:20.079
<v Speaker 4>TLS is authorized anymore on your machine from the node

879
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:21.880
<v Speaker 4>run time, And it's like right.

880
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Uh oh, well yeah, and everybody, everybody has a different

881
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.599
<v Speaker 2>way of approaching this, and a lot of organizations and

882
00:42:31.599 --> 00:42:33.519
<v Speaker 2>a lot of different techniques. They literally punt it's like

883
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:35.880
<v Speaker 2>use whatever you want, which another way of saying welcome

884
00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:38.679
<v Speaker 2>to hell. Yep, yeah, right, no, two ways.

885
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:40.639
<v Speaker 1>And the fact that I won't be responsible.

886
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:43.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well Microsoft did the right. The thing about dot

887
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:45.880
<v Speaker 2>net dev SERTs is brilliant free free, right, you know

888
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:47.719
<v Speaker 2>what you do to not have to ask the boss

889
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:51.000
<v Speaker 2>for anything this, yes, and so that's what they'll do.

890
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you can still do it. It's using under

891
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:55.320
<v Speaker 3>the hood.

892
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.719
<v Speaker 4>It uses the things that you use, right, Like we're

893
00:42:57.719 --> 00:42:59.679
<v Speaker 4>not reinventing the wheel, which is a problem.

894
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 3>We've definitely gotten into in dot net in the past.

895
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:03.480
<v Speaker 4>I think like where we'll be like we can do

896
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:05.760
<v Speaker 4>it better, like we're going to build a whole new

897
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:09.719
<v Speaker 4>thing for this, but we've we've gotten far away from that,

898
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 4>especially like you know, in my decade or so a

899
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 4>little bit less being in dot netland, where we do

900
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:17.960
<v Speaker 4>we do it so that you can always break out

901
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:20.360
<v Speaker 4>and do what the thing is under the hood if

902
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.079
<v Speaker 4>you want to and you don't want to use our stuff,

903
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:24.239
<v Speaker 4>and we carry that opinion into a spire where we

904
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.000
<v Speaker 4>have these opinions and these packages.

905
00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:27.719
<v Speaker 3>But if you want to just write code to do whatever,

906
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:29.280
<v Speaker 3>we don't care. Go nuts, have fun.

907
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:31.039
<v Speaker 1>Nice what's next?

908
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:31.599
<v Speaker 3>Huh?

909
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:33.320
<v Speaker 1>And what's left to do? Oh my god?

910
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Well you're thirteen point one. So and by the way, Mady,

911
00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:39.639
<v Speaker 2>I just get a thrill every time I hear the

912
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:43.079
<v Speaker 2>PM version of you come out with is, Hey, we're

913
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:44.880
<v Speaker 2>going to do fixed versions, and we're going to do

914
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:48.199
<v Speaker 2>feature versions, like you've just been down this road so

915
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:52.760
<v Speaker 2>many times, Like I hear those sounds. So thirteen point

916
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.039
<v Speaker 2>one is out. You big up to thirteen. We use

917
00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:58.800
<v Speaker 2>a heavy left. That's a whole lot of features. I

918
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:02.079
<v Speaker 2>got to think that the one is okay? How those

919
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:04.880
<v Speaker 2>actually land? Like what did we get in? Like this

920
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:07.840
<v Speaker 2>is it's a stabilization rev mm hmm yep.

921
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.960
<v Speaker 4>Thirteen one was a lot of okay, Like these are

922
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:11.639
<v Speaker 4>things that we because we wanted to ship at dot

923
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.880
<v Speaker 4>net cof right, because even though we were like, oh,

924
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.000
<v Speaker 4>our whole thing is we're dropping dot Net. Like writing

925
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.320
<v Speaker 4>the keynote script was very weird. Because I was like,

926
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.440
<v Speaker 4>it has to be like we're dot net and we

927
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.400
<v Speaker 4>love this and like this is not bad, but also

928
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:28.559
<v Speaker 4>we don't want to lie. Yeah, and so we you know,

929
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:30.599
<v Speaker 4>we totally sank that up and then we shipped thirteen

930
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.400
<v Speaker 4>one like three or four weeks later because we just

931
00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:35.119
<v Speaker 4>there were things that we were like, yeah, you know

932
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.679
<v Speaker 4>that didn't get in that could be cleaned up. We're

933
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:41.400
<v Speaker 4>also trying to react as Foundry has been developing like crazy.

934
00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:43.320
<v Speaker 4>We want to make sure we have good experiences for that.

935
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:48.639
<v Speaker 4>And so our next release, thirteen to two is coming out.

936
00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.840
<v Speaker 3>Did it What month is it? It's January? Yeah, I

937
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:53.480
<v Speaker 3>don't know what's come out, but.

938
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:56.199
<v Speaker 1>It's January at my house.

939
00:44:56.440 --> 00:44:57.280
<v Speaker 3>It's not out yet.

940
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so time is illusion lunchtime, doubly sing.

941
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:02.800
<v Speaker 3>That's true, It's true.

942
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.760
<v Speaker 4>That's definitely more of a stabilization and a docks release,

943
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:08.280
<v Speaker 4>Like we're really hunkering down on it because we build

944
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:09.719
<v Speaker 4>our own website. So now we have docks on our

945
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:14.280
<v Speaker 4>own website, right, so we're making that easier. We're looking at,

946
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.119
<v Speaker 4>you know, how to get the team to be able

947
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:18.920
<v Speaker 4>to contribute docs more without having to have our one

948
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:21.880
<v Speaker 4>four docks guide just right at all? Right, and then

949
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:23.599
<v Speaker 4>and using AI for that of course?

950
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:25.559
<v Speaker 2>Is that is that a learn engine? Aneath at it?

951
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:27.280
<v Speaker 3>We built our.

952
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:31.239
<v Speaker 4>Own wow wow, Yeah, we we had a lot of

953
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.519
<v Speaker 4>arguments about it. Part of it was just because we

954
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.360
<v Speaker 4>wanted to build our website without dot Net and deploy

955
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:41.519
<v Speaker 4>it with a spire using the internal deployment stuff, which

956
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:42.760
<v Speaker 4>is a nightmare.

957
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:44.159
<v Speaker 1>This is you dog fooding.

958
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:46.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and we wanted to be able to say we

959
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:49.760
<v Speaker 4>have this aspire ified thing that isn't dot net, right yeah,

960
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:51.800
<v Speaker 4>and learn, I mean learning a whole bunch of other stuff.

961
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:53.440
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, you're not going to lift a whole learn

962
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 2>engine into that, So we kind of got to do

963
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>it your way right.

964
00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:58.639
<v Speaker 3>Control the brand, Yeah, and we thought it would be fun.

965
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:01.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, the brand control is great, And like we're using

966
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:03.880
<v Speaker 4>Astro and Starlight, which is really cool. They actually just

967
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:07.960
<v Speaker 4>got bought like a week ago, but now we're like

968
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:09.840
<v Speaker 4>one of their showcase sites and so it's been a

969
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.800
<v Speaker 4>really cool way to like build out networks outside of

970
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.880
<v Speaker 4>our usual realm and it's really easy.

971
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 1>It was super easy.

972
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.159
<v Speaker 2>So but anyways, doc debt a link to that to

973
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.800
<v Speaker 2>Astro build Like folks need to know.

974
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 1>This is cool. Stuff.

975
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:28.719
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and it's open source by the way, Microsoft Slash

976
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.400
<v Speaker 4>is fired dot dev on GitHub. So doc stet is

977
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 4>this release. And then we have to get back into two.

978
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:39.679
<v Speaker 4>There's two big things. One is deployment. We have a

979
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:42.079
<v Speaker 4>lot of we've we've kind of settled on a direction,

980
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.079
<v Speaker 4>but it's not done. Aspire has always been local first,

981
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:48.079
<v Speaker 4>and then we've made it using AZD or whatever like

982
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 4>pretty trivial to spin up a dev environment. But obviously

983
00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:54.599
<v Speaker 4>most people want to put things in pipelines or hand

984
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:58.320
<v Speaker 4>them off to their DevOps team, or run checks against

985
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:01.639
<v Speaker 4>things and CI and et cetera. And so we've started

986
00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:04.519
<v Speaker 4>this concept of as fire pipelines and build steps and

987
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:06.239
<v Speaker 4>all these things, and we need to polish that up

988
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:10.840
<v Speaker 4>and actually finish it and build out stories outside of Azure.

989
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.159
<v Speaker 4>Because we are multi cloud, you can use AWS and Vanilla,

990
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:18.440
<v Speaker 4>Docker and Digital Ocean with a spire.

991
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:20.519
<v Speaker 2>But so GCP will work fine then too.

992
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:23.639
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it does work now, it's just

993
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:25.639
<v Speaker 4>you have to spit out the app posts as a

994
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:28.280
<v Speaker 4>manifest and then translate that into whatever the artifacts are.

995
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.599
<v Speaker 4>And so that's a big thing we're building out. The

996
00:47:31.639 --> 00:47:34.840
<v Speaker 4>other thing is obviously AI. Both using and building AI,

997
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.719
<v Speaker 4>and so the MCP is crazy.

998
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 3>A Spire MCP and the.

999
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:45.800
<v Speaker 4>Playwright MCP together, My god, it is truly like hands

1000
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:47.400
<v Speaker 4>off because Playwright navigator.

1001
00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:49.639
<v Speaker 2>I am so in danger when I play with the

1002
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Playwright MCP of losing a day every single time I

1003
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:54.599
<v Speaker 2>touch it. It's an instant rabbit hole.

1004
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:55.519
<v Speaker 3>It's brilliant.

1005
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:01.480
<v Speaker 1>We use Playwright MCP to automatically generate documentary for a website.

1006
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:05.280
<v Speaker 1>I think it was Jeff's website probably yeah, yeah, and

1007
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 1>it did screenshots.

1008
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:09.039
<v Speaker 3>And now at hire MVP yep.

1009
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Everything.

1010
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.480
<v Speaker 4>It gets the logs, it gets the telemetry, it gets

1011
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 4>the errors. It can stop and restart individual resources and

1012
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:17.840
<v Speaker 4>run commands against them, et cetera. And then play right's

1013
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.320
<v Speaker 4>the one that's actually clicking for you? And it's like what.

1014
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:23.960
<v Speaker 4>But then on the other end, you know, I want

1015
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:25.719
<v Speaker 4>to be able to add a resource into my app

1016
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:27.280
<v Speaker 4>that's an AI resource, and so I want to be

1017
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:30.199
<v Speaker 4>able to point it to a deployment on Foundry, which

1018
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:33.639
<v Speaker 4>they have their whole new their like next gen Foundry

1019
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:35.519
<v Speaker 4>experience that we were trying to build around.

1020
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.519
<v Speaker 1>Tell us about Foundry just really quickly. I mean, I

1021
00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:42.079
<v Speaker 1>think of it as a Microsoft alternative to a LAMA.

1022
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:44.159
<v Speaker 1>But tell me what it is.

1023
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:48.400
<v Speaker 3>Officially, Foundry is. I hope no one on the Foundry

1024
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:50.320
<v Speaker 3>heame ever listens to this. It's a hub.

1025
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:56.480
<v Speaker 4>For AI cloud apps, right, agentic apps, so you can

1026
00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.679
<v Speaker 4>get all your models, you can get all your very

1027
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:04.800
<v Speaker 4>lightweight like data and stuff all there. It's a playground.

1028
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:08.760
<v Speaker 4>The web experience came first. Foundry Local is their o

1029
00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:12.920
<v Speaker 4>LAMA thing. Yeah, yeah, and it's all this kind of

1030
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 4>one brand. Really, the point of it is to pull

1031
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:19.920
<v Speaker 4>the complexity of Azure out of the experience because, as

1032
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:22.119
<v Speaker 4>you all know, like if you're an Azure dev or

1033
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.760
<v Speaker 4>someone who's an Azure admin, like there's a rabbit hole.

1034
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:27.119
<v Speaker 4>And so Foundry really streamlines it and makes it super

1035
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:29.559
<v Speaker 4>easy for people who aren't already in the Azure ecosystem

1036
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:32.840
<v Speaker 4>to hop in and start playing around. We also, like

1037
00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:34.840
<v Speaker 4>we have a GitHub models integration, We have just a

1038
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.760
<v Speaker 4>generic open AI integration. You can stick any connection string

1039
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.719
<v Speaker 4>anywhere into your spire app host. But having a really

1040
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:45.239
<v Speaker 4>streamlined Foundry experience is good for all you. And also,

1041
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:47.440
<v Speaker 4>like Rich was saying earlier, it's good for us because

1042
00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:50.280
<v Speaker 4>it ties us to revenue, like we're an open source project,

1043
00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:53.320
<v Speaker 4>So we need to tie to revenue or when the

1044
00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:57.039
<v Speaker 4>contraction happens and the bubble starts to burst a little bit,

1045
00:49:57.079 --> 00:49:59.039
<v Speaker 4>we need to make sure that we are actually like

1046
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.960
<v Speaker 4>increase and shareholder value.

1047
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Every CFO is going to go to every death and

1048
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.400
<v Speaker 2>say show your ROI yep, And if you can show

1049
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:13.440
<v Speaker 2>that you're providing value to the company, you live. And

1050
00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:15.119
<v Speaker 2>if you don't, you're gone.

1051
00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:17.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And it's a win win for Foundry because they

1052
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:20.639
<v Speaker 4>don't have to worry as much about the devas, which

1053
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.360
<v Speaker 4>is a really complicated problem right now, the devas of

1054
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:27.519
<v Speaker 4>building AI apps. Like, yeah, together we've really been able

1055
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:29.000
<v Speaker 4>to create a good story.

1056
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Well and just that awareness to put people in a

1057
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:35.079
<v Speaker 2>place where they can demonstrate value.

1058
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:35.960
<v Speaker 1>That's good tooling.

1059
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.599
<v Speaker 2>You know, you can't have to remind people are supping

1060
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Microft actually a tooling company. Yes, that's what it was

1061
00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:42.840
<v Speaker 2>really always about. Yeah, they happen to make languages and

1062
00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:45.840
<v Speaker 2>things along the way, you know, arguably against their will

1063
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:49.800
<v Speaker 2>they had to, but they you know, and it's easy

1064
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to focus on that.

1065
00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the business is tooling.

1066
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean as fire was originally called a stack,

1067
00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:59.000
<v Speaker 4>which whole other thing, and it's it's the gottenet platform

1068
00:50:59.039 --> 00:51:00.920
<v Speaker 4>team that built a fire, like not the dot net

1069
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:03.800
<v Speaker 4>tooling team, right, And at some point after I had joined,

1070
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:04.400
<v Speaker 4>we kind of were.

1071
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:06.639
<v Speaker 3>Like, this is kind of a tool. Is this tool?

1072
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:09.159
<v Speaker 3>And it totally changed our perspective on.

1073
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:09.480
<v Speaker 1>All of it.

1074
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then suddenly the languages don't matter and the

1075
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:15.719
<v Speaker 2>platforms don't matter and it's just about being productive.

1076
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:16.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yep.

1077
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:18.719
<v Speaker 2>And at the same and all the good stuff I

1078
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.119
<v Speaker 2>see three different axis is moving at once. Right, that

1079
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.840
<v Speaker 2>there is a shift of the platforms underneath you, a

1080
00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:26.440
<v Speaker 2>shift of the languages off of the side. And then

1081
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:29.480
<v Speaker 2>suddenly this new wave of tooling with llms and things,

1082
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:32.239
<v Speaker 2>and you need to hook into each of them. Like

1083
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:34.079
<v Speaker 2>you look at this list of features, like why are

1084
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:35.639
<v Speaker 2>they worried about this? It's like, because this is all

1085
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:38.480
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that will stop you, yes, as a developer,

1086
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:39.400
<v Speaker 2>from using this tool.

1087
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:40.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly.

1088
00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's really interesting. And what a battle.

1089
00:51:43.519 --> 00:51:47.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we have a constant you know battle, that's how

1090
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.639
<v Speaker 4>much do we do and force ourselves to own versus

1091
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.800
<v Speaker 4>how much do we let you fiddle around with? And

1092
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:57.480
<v Speaker 4>so we still we haven't really come up with any

1093
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.719
<v Speaker 4>strict guidelines yet, Like I think we're now we're talking

1094
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:03.039
<v Speaker 4>about like, should we have install things for you if

1095
00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:04.719
<v Speaker 4>they're in your appost and you don't have them, Like

1096
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:06.360
<v Speaker 4>does that make sense? Or should we point you at

1097
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.079
<v Speaker 4>something like is that too heavy handed? But for us,

1098
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:11.119
<v Speaker 4>it's just you should be able to break out of

1099
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:14.159
<v Speaker 4>the of our opinions at any time, like no black

1100
00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:15.679
<v Speaker 4>boxes is our number one thing.

1101
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:18.360
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly the thing I was thinking. You have opinions,

1102
00:52:18.480 --> 00:52:21.840
<v Speaker 2>but so do your customers. Yes, and so it's always

1103
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:24.360
<v Speaker 2>a question of whose opinions are more tightly held.

1104
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:28.400
<v Speaker 4>Right right in our given moment, loosely held but we

1105
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:29.159
<v Speaker 4>think they're good.

1106
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but you can you can pop out at anything.

1107
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:33.519
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not sure what to do. The fact that

1108
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:35.400
<v Speaker 2>you have an opinion makes my life better. But if

1109
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I haven't told that's the way I'm doing things, you

1110
00:52:37.719 --> 00:52:39.320
<v Speaker 2>need to back off on your opinion or I have

1111
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:40.079
<v Speaker 2>to go somewhere else.

1112
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:41.119
<v Speaker 3>Yep, exactly.

1113
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:43.719
<v Speaker 1>So the Greenfield story is pretty obvious. You start with

1114
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:46.360
<v Speaker 1>a new visual studio template, you say I want an

1115
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Aspire template, and then you go from there. Even if

1116
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.719
<v Speaker 1>you're not using any of the caches and all that stuff,

1117
00:52:52.760 --> 00:52:55.480
<v Speaker 1>you could still just start that way and you get

1118
00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:59.519
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of extra stuff like the startup app,

1119
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:02.000
<v Speaker 1>and then you have to click your app to run it.

1120
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.599
<v Speaker 1>But it's not it's not going to impede anything, right,

1121
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:09.199
<v Speaker 1>so you should always start a new project with aspire I. Yes,

1122
00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:13.159
<v Speaker 1>but the brown Field thing is a little bit different,

1123
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 1>isn't it. And then this is what we did on

1124
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.840
<v Speaker 1>stage that we were talking about. We aspiified dot net Rocks,

1125
00:53:18.960 --> 00:53:22.639
<v Speaker 1>the dot NetRocks dot com website, and it was pretty

1126
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:24.000
<v Speaker 1>freaking easy.

1127
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:28.559
<v Speaker 4>It's it's it's really a manifest, like it's a type

1128
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.000
<v Speaker 4>safe manifest. There are things you have to wiggle your

1129
00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:34.880
<v Speaker 4>way through sometimes, and especially with older dot net apps.

1130
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.559
<v Speaker 4>So we had Handsleman come on and do it a

1131
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:39.880
<v Speaker 4>spiification of his podcast website too, and and you know,

1132
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:42.519
<v Speaker 4>he's using the same builder pattern that he used in

1133
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.960
<v Speaker 4>dot net Core and we're like, bro, like, doesn't work

1134
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.639
<v Speaker 4>like that anymore. So there's definitely this modernization that has

1135
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.119
<v Speaker 4>to happen because one of our opinions, right is we're

1136
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:54.320
<v Speaker 4>not gonna let you keep using the old stuff, because

1137
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:56.039
<v Speaker 4>we don't want the tech det of supporting all the

1138
00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.760
<v Speaker 4>old stuff and every matrix of that. We would never

1139
00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:01.239
<v Speaker 4>be a to get anything done if we had to

1140
00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:03.920
<v Speaker 4>worry about you know, the original ihose builders.

1141
00:54:04.039 --> 00:54:07.199
<v Speaker 2>So you are forcing me down the pit of modernization here.

1142
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but if I remember correctly, it was just like

1143
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:13.199
<v Speaker 1>a right click on a solution or something, and it

1144
00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:15.880
<v Speaker 1>was like ad Aspire or was that easy?

1145
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:16.760
<v Speaker 3>It's that easy.

1146
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:18.840
<v Speaker 4>And now we have a command line experience too, so

1147
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:21.599
<v Speaker 4>we'll look and we'll a knit and we're starting to

1148
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:23.199
<v Speaker 4>build out for multiple languages. So if you have a

1149
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:25.400
<v Speaker 4>job strip front end and dot Net back end, we

1150
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.039
<v Speaker 4>can aspireify that from the command line, from VS code

1151
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:32.079
<v Speaker 4>or from vs without you having to jump through hoops.

1152
00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 1>So I did a I have a customer that we

1153
00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:40.800
<v Speaker 1>hire Jeff Fritz to aspireify their application, right dot net

1154
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:44.559
<v Speaker 1>Blazer application, and he did it and it worked fine.

1155
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:46.800
<v Speaker 1>But there was only one thing that got in the way,

1156
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.039
<v Speaker 1>and that was we were using poly the in it,

1157
00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:54.039
<v Speaker 1>and then you know, Aspire wants to use the poly

1158
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.960
<v Speaker 1>stuff that's in the dot Net framework, but you know,

1159
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:00.440
<v Speaker 1>just different name spaces and things like that, so that

1160
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.239
<v Speaker 1>became a little bit of a tweak that we had

1161
00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:03.880
<v Speaker 1>to get around. But other than that, it was just

1162
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:04.679
<v Speaker 1>like easy.

1163
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:07.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, we turned It's one of another one of those

1164
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:09.800
<v Speaker 4>things we turn on because we think you should probably

1165
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:11.159
<v Speaker 4>have some level of resiliency.

1166
00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but you can just comment that out.

1167
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.280
<v Speaker 4>Like, that's the reason that the service defaults, which is

1168
00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:19.639
<v Speaker 4>our our opinions for a dot net back end or

1169
00:55:19.639 --> 00:55:21.480
<v Speaker 4>a dot net app, whatever it is. That's the reason

1170
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.000
<v Speaker 4>it's a template and not a package you pull in

1171
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:27.719
<v Speaker 4>so that you can go into it and comment things out.

1172
00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:31.599
<v Speaker 1>It was very easy, Yeah, easy to upgrade. So good

1173
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:35.760
<v Speaker 1>names all around Greenfield, Brownfield, yeah, blue Field. Yeah.

1174
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.800
<v Speaker 4>The other thing, like we keep talking about, nobody's going

1175
00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:41.440
<v Speaker 4>to make an Aspire app that's not like a thing.

1176
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:42.920
<v Speaker 3>It's an app that uses a spire.

1177
00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:47.280
<v Speaker 4>So you'll do NPM create or you'll clone a template,

1178
00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:49.440
<v Speaker 4>or you'll go into visual Studio and you'll do file

1179
00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.440
<v Speaker 4>new project. And like, aspires should be easy to add

1180
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:54.119
<v Speaker 4>in at any stage.

1181
00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:55.440
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you the other side of this is

1182
00:55:55.480 --> 00:55:57.719
<v Speaker 2>coming into a project as a consultant and someone says,

1183
00:55:57.719 --> 00:55:59.719
<v Speaker 2>we used Aspire for this thought. I know a bunch

1184
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:01.719
<v Speaker 2>of stuf about you know, hmm right, I know a

1185
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:03.760
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch about this app. Things you will do and

1186
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:06.360
<v Speaker 2>won't do if Aspire is actually working.

1187
00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:08.960
<v Speaker 4>And you know, it'll probably be running on your machine

1188
00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:10.639
<v Speaker 4>that day instead of in two weeks.

1189
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:13.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know, but they never call you when

1190
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 2>there's everything's working.

1191
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:15.199
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's true.

1192
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:15.880
<v Speaker 1>That's a good point.

1193
00:56:16.119 --> 00:56:16.719
<v Speaker 3>That's a great point.

1194
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:20.400
<v Speaker 1>So so where are you struggling? Well, Maddie, it's been

1195
00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:24.440
<v Speaker 1>wicked awesome talking to you. And is there anything sorry?

1196
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:28.599
<v Speaker 1>And is there anything else a that we missed that

1197
00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:31.639
<v Speaker 1>you want to I don't think so.

1198
00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:33.800
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's going to be a crazy year. I

1199
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:36.920
<v Speaker 3>think is going to be a wild ride hopefully.

1200
00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:39.719
<v Speaker 4>I see you guys at MVP SUMM.

1201
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:41.760
<v Speaker 3>You know you're doing the two thousandth episode. That'll be great.

1202
00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know.

1203
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:45.079
<v Speaker 2>I've got a I've got a special guest list to

1204
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:46.800
<v Speaker 2>make sure folks can get in there because it's going

1205
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:47.320
<v Speaker 2>to sell out.

1206
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:50.239
<v Speaker 1>So you're on that list, my dear, Oh I will.

1207
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:53.360
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I think it's going to be a fun year.

1208
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:56.320
<v Speaker 4>We're hoping to do an Aspire centric online event, like

1209
00:56:56.360 --> 00:56:58.920
<v Speaker 4>similar to a dot net conf but about aspire'd be

1210
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.719
<v Speaker 4>great at some point, So keep your ears open. I

1211
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.719
<v Speaker 4>might tap you too for that. As the dot net heads,

1212
00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:06.639
<v Speaker 4>maybe you can come in and represent the old Guard.

1213
00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.000
<v Speaker 1>It would be the token old dot net guys.

1214
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:12.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, really good for the for the stereotypes.

1215
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think you need a Python time when you

1216
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:17.719
<v Speaker 2>need us.

1217
00:57:18.119 --> 00:57:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, have someone in mind.

1218
00:57:20.039 --> 00:57:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I'll circle back with you.

1219
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:25.239
<v Speaker 1>Of that, everybody has to be wearing depends. That's the yes,

1220
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:26.559
<v Speaker 1>that's the me too.

1221
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:30.519
<v Speaker 4>On the outside, the streams can get long, you know,

1222
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:35.199
<v Speaker 4>I get it. But yeah, Aspire dot dev is the

1223
00:57:35.199 --> 00:57:37.519
<v Speaker 4>home for everything Aspire, right, so that's the fight now,

1224
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:39.480
<v Speaker 4>I love it, So just go there.

1225
00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:43.400
<v Speaker 3>We stream on Fridays. We're doing more content. We're around.

1226
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:47.239
<v Speaker 3>We're pretty honest to a fault. So we have a discord.

1227
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:49.800
<v Speaker 3>It's all link on the website coming.

1228
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.679
<v Speaker 1>Out And Maddie, what's your home base on the web

1229
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:53.239
<v Speaker 1>these days?

1230
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:56.159
<v Speaker 4>Probably Blue Sky is the thing I use the most,

1231
00:57:56.840 --> 00:58:00.400
<v Speaker 4>although I now I get to impersonate Aspire. I'm logged

1232
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:02.239
<v Speaker 4>in as that brand account, which is horrifying.

1233
00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:05.159
<v Speaker 2>Wow, but a god, you have a brand account.

1234
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:08.039
<v Speaker 1>Look at you as is here.

1235
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:11.199
<v Speaker 4>At Aspire dot dev the website or at Mattie Montacuola

1236
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:14.159
<v Speaker 4>dot net is my personal one, which I use but

1237
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:17.440
<v Speaker 4>mostly just to retweet other people or heckel Fowler.

1238
00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:20.800
<v Speaker 2>So great and we all know you need to heckle

1239
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:21.559
<v Speaker 2>Fowler more.

1240
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, all right, Maddie. We'll catch up with you

1241
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:28.559
<v Speaker 1>later this year. Thanks. See you guys, all right, thanks

1242
00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:52.039
<v Speaker 1>and we'll talk to you next time. Rock dot Net

1243
00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:55.039
<v Speaker 1>Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced

1244
00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:58.920
<v Speaker 1>by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post

1245
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:03.079
<v Speaker 1>production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of

1246
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:08.039
<v Speaker 1>course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit

1247
00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 1>our website at d O T N E t R

1248
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:14.199
<v Speaker 1>O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1249
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:18.000
<v Speaker 1>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1250
00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:21.440
<v Speaker 1>back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1251
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.119
<v Speaker 1>and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1252
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:27.280
<v Speaker 1>They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1253
00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:28.400
<v Speaker 1>See you next time.

1254
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:31.079
<v Speaker 3>You got jamdvans

1255
00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:33.239
<v Speaker 2>And