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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net Rocks with

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We'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks

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patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

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dot com. Hey, welcome to the podcast. It's Carl Franklin

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and Richard Campbell and Maddie Montaguilla. It's dot net rocks.

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It's up, Richard, Maddie.

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Speaker 2: Good to be back home.

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Speaker 1: Galavander, Sir Galivant.

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Speaker 2: Spent a couple of weeks in Mexico and Acapoco, you know,

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soaking up some sun because it's awful gray in the

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in the Pacific northwest, right, and then stopped in Mexico

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City to visit with Paul Throt and his wife. A

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few days in Mexico City, and then we couldn't get out.

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That's cool, because the Aero Rexico kept canceling our flights

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over and over again, like two days running. I finally

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just bought a ticket on Air Canada and did the

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long way back to Vancouver through Toronto oh god. But

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the issue was that it was foggy at YVR and

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for what ever reason, Aero Mexico I guess they just

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won't fly in the fog and the air Canada guys

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are like, let's go. So they got home that way.

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But you know, I figured it out.

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Speaker 1: All right. Let's start with what happened in nineteen eighty seven.

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This is episode nineteen hundred and eighty seven. By the way,

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we're moving closer to two thousand, which you probably know

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we're going to do live at the party with Palermo. Yeah,

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MVPVP seven And we've asked you for your little memories.

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I guess, yeah, stories, stories, Okay, okay. Nineteen eighty seven, Wow,

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A bunch of things happened.

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Speaker 2: What are your favorites?

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Speaker 1: Well, Black Monday happened, stock market.

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Speaker 2: Crash, right, a big market correction.

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Speaker 1: Dow Jones industrial average up twenty two point six percent

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in a single day. Of the Princess Bride, Dirty Dancing.

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Aretha Franklin became the first woman inducted into the Hall

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of Fame. You two, Joshua Tree, Right, all good stuff,

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easy music, yep, yep, yep. Let's see. British Airwaves was

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privatized and listed on the London Stock Exchange. Ronald Reagan

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and Mikhail Gorbachev meet to discuss nuclear disarmament.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's start in space, of course. We last

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week's episode nineteen eighty six was the Challenger disaster, which

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grounded all shuttles obviously, and began.

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Speaker 3: The geez, you guys have a tough few years here, huh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was rough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, although obviously there's no spacial flights in nineteen eighty seven,

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this is when the Presidential Commission on the accident is

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going on, they called the Rogers Commission, and the reports

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and implementation are put out in nineteen eighty seven. It

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starts with the solid rocket mooter redesign three to zero

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rings instead of two, and a heater system to make

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sure that those seals never get so damaged. You know,

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they challenge your incident was the most disastrous of the

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problems with the solid rocketbuster, but it wasn't the only one,

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and that technical solution worked, there would never be a

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problem with the boosters.

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Speaker 1: Again.

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Speaker 2: The harder one was the cultural changes. So they were

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supposed to have an independent safety organization, which they definitely

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laid out on paper just didn't actually ever use it.

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And then this concept that the Rodgers Cousoul talked about

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of normalization of deviantce this sort of recognition that just

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because you didn't have a disaster involving a problem doesn't

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mean it's still not a problem. It should be immediately addressed.

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So engineers supposed to be able to speak freely that

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whenever you have an anomally you take it as a warning.

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This obviously doesn't work, because we'll have the two thousand

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and three Columbia disaster where they had had lots of

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flights where foam was coming off the external tank and

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eventually punches a hole through the wing of Columbia and

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dooms the vehicle. They also add the crew escape system,

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so this is an escape This puts the shuttle astronauts

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into proper pressure suits. Up until then they've been just

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in flight suits, and also adds this escape pole out

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of the hatch. In theory, during a disaster, you were

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supposed to clear down to the lower deck where the

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door was, blow the door out, this rod would come out,

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they would hook to it. That raw would help fling

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them beyond the reach of the shuttle so that they

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could parachute to the surface.

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Speaker 1: Funny thing about explosions, though, you don't really have time

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to do.

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Speaker 2: That, not a lot of time for any of that.

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Plus most of the flight profile of the ascent does

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not allow this to work. So even though they've added

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all this complexity, most of the ascent was still non survivable.

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Speaker 1: So you think it was more like, hey, we can

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spend money on safety watch.

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Speaker 2: This and one of the things you see overall and

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the results of the Rogers Comission, we have all of

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this in hindsight is mechanical they could do, they did,

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and the cultural changes just they couldn't pull off. But

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arguably the most important thing that comes from the Rogers

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Commission is acknowledgement that the Special is not an airliner.

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It should not be operated about an airliner and an

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experimental vehicle. The flight rate should be much lower, lots

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more testing done, which just raises the cost of all

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the flights. And of course they would follow that with

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much lower flight rates for a few years and then

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crank them back up again as the demands for the

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International Space Station so come into play. It's great that

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and I went back and read this again. There's a

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whole couple of paragraphs to talk about. Look, this was

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not a technological failure. This was a cultural failure. And

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the only real solution is to change the culture. And

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that's the hardest thing to do. It's right in the dock,

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and it's exactly what.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't do ultimately.

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Speaker 2: Other than that, Like, it's a pretty you think it

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was a pretty slow space here, right, the Americans only

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through three They had one flight of the last flight

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of a Titan three B lifting an Air Force communication satellite.

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There are two dental delta flights, one for a geostationary satellite,

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one for a communication satellite. But then there's the Soviets.

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It's nineteen eighty seven. It's kind of the height of

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the Space Defense Initiative SDI aka star Wars. This is

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something that Reagan announced in nineteen eighty three and was

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formed in nineteen eighty four. It'll become the Missile Defense

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Agency in another decade or so. It will never actually

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fly any hardware. In fact, in eighty seven, the American

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Physical Society concludes that the technologies that they're talking about,

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which was flying all these little satellites that would track

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and shoot down ICBMs, is decades away from being true,

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but the Soviets don't know that, and they attempt to

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test the defense system. This is the Energy A Rocket Booster.

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This was the first flight of the Energy A Rocket Booster.

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Obstensibly it was built for Barran, and Barran was the

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Soviet space shuttle. It'll only fly once in eighty seven,

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but its first flight. They because it can lift ninety

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five metric tons like that's an incredible payload that basically

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can't be matched at Saturn five level payloads. The most

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powerful rocket the Soviets ever built. They lifted this vehicle

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called Pollius.

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Speaker 1: It was supposed to just be a.

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Speaker 2: Test payload, but it wasn't. What it was was a

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weapons platform carrying a megawat carbon dioxide laser, but it

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never made it to orbit. It sounds spooky. It's dangerous,

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is what it is, and the failure to get to

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orbit is weird. The Energy of booster worked flawlessly, but

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the vehicle was actually mounted in the launch platform backwards deliberately,

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so as soon as it's separated from the booster, it

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was supposed to turn around one hundred eighty degrees and

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then boost itself to the rest away in the orbit

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and instead of turning one hundred and eighty degrees, it

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turned three hundred and sixty degrees and deorbited itself. The

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debate is whether or not it was an accident, because

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the argument here is as much as the Americans were

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talking about defensive weapons systems in space, they had flown nothing.

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This was the first weapons platform ever deployed in the space,

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again in contravention of the Outer Space Treaty of nineteen

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sixty six. And so there's this whole subtext that maybe

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when Gorbachev figured out what they were doing, insisted that

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they make sure it doesn't get to orbit, and such

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a simple thing to say, instead of turning one hundred

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and eighty turned three sixty, so that everything worked perfectly,

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but it never flew. Now, a lot of the technology

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was developing. The best argument I say in favor of

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this is the fact that they didn't just build one

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test platform. They had built a bunch of parts, all

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the control systems, like a whole lot of them. The

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laser actually came from an anti ballistic missile system was

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supposed to fly on an aircraft, and those parts continued

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to be used. The Mirror Space station, which had gone

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up in nineteen eighty six, and I think I may

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have failed to mention that a bunch of the additional

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modules that went onto that all used parts from the

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Polias project. In fact, even the two of the modules

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are on the International Space Station their technologies directly derived

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from this project. So this project was not experimental. It

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was a large scale, long term project that got repurposed

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away from being a weapon system.

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Speaker 1: You know, I forget about writing the history of dot net.

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You got to write a book about this and sell

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the screenplay because it's just like, I'm like on the

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edge of this is.

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Speaker 2: The craziest thing that ever happened that virtually nobody talks about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never heard about it.

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Speaker 2: Can you do it?

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Speaker 3: It is a full episode of this. Like, I don't

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need the text any of it. I'll just sit and listen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we do space geek Out every year at

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the end of the year, but this wasn't on it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's mostly about current stuff, not this historical stuff.

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But Polyia stands by itself. It's insane what actually happened there. Well, also,

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think about a Megawak class laser in nineteen eighty seven. Yeah,

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like honestly star Trek stuff on the other tech side

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of things. So this is the year that the GSM

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standard gets formalized as the European Staminay for telephanites where

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SMS comes from, text messages comes from. Of course, the

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American standard the Quenee Center was the CDMA, which will

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ultimately lose out to GSM worldwide. Of course it won't

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reach this is only the standards point eight eighty seven

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they producle. We're still market till the early nineteen nineties.

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Computer wise, this is the year of the IBM PS two.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy.

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Speaker 2: This was a three eighty six megabyte machine. But the

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important part of it is that it came standard with

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three and a half inch floppies and the Vega video

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standard videographics are right, really setting the standard for both those.

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This was considered my IBM's push to try and get

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control of the PS of the PC market that they

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invented in lost large control. They sold more than a

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million of these, like they did well when.

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Speaker 1: I had my first Vega card and monitor. The most

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I was just thinking of this yesterday. The most amazing

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thing was seeing a depiction or a scan of an

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actual photograph that was beautiful. Yeah, and you know, like

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a woods scene in winter or something like that, and

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I was thinking, oh my god, we've come so far.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the color palette was so much larger. That was

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like a big deal. It was a big deal. So

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this is also the machine that you had a choice

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between Windows two, which was released that year, and two

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STAS four or O.

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Speaker 1: S two version one.

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Speaker 2: And Windows two was you know Windows when had been out,

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like it was still pretty primitive. Guey, So OS two

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is a reasonable option that So it's all the beginning

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of that. Uh yeah, I got three more for you.

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Language wise, this is the year of Pearl. So Larry

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Wall ships Pearl. He originally built it to do text

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file parsing and report generation, but we know what it

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really became. And this is the quoted term the duct

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tape of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Well and also it reads like a cartoon character swear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was it's you know, it's it's just

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it's a text parsing tool, right, which is perfect for

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the Internet. But yeah, Pearl kept a lot of Internet working,

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a lot of websites functional, Like Larry Wall did us

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all the service, but it's a very challenging. H here's

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why Carl's going to love. This is the year that

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the company called ad Lib from Quebec City is formed

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to make the music synthesizer car, typically known as the car.

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Right they will be bankrupt in five years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Creative Labs flete at their lunch.

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Speaker 2: Creative Labs will clauter them. But they prove the market

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or high quality PC back then.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Now all motherboards come with audio, but back then they

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did not. Right, you had to get an add on card.

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Speaker 2: One last one out of compu serve by a guy

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named still will hedwork is Steve well Hide working for

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the company creates a graphic graphics interchange format or JIFF,

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not giff if not Yiff, because Steve himself the guy

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it said, choosy developers choose.

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Speaker 1: Jeff come ondraschange format graphics.

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Speaker 2: I'm just telling you what they created. But by the way,

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guy died to COVID nineteen. That's a shame. But he

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didn't he.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, wanted everyone to use it.

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Speaker 2: That's wheet and he was he bid to play on

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choosey kids, choose Jiff, Yeah, choose Yeah, Yeah, that's choosy mom, Jeff, Yeah,

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all right, cheesy mount Jef says he used that same

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line to get you to use this graphic format that

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would where it's a it's a non resolution losing a

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non destructive compression format like it was a great it's

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still great. Anyway, there's my stories from nineteen eighty seven.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now that we've wasted thirteen and a half minutes

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of your time, it was no waste.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding, Sory, I talk too much about Poulias.

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About my god, what a coolnes is is so cool.

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Speaker 1: That no, I'm serious that that's the best story I've

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heard this year. And you know we're just getting started.

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Speaker 2: All right, so history of space geek outs let us know.

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Maybe I'll write a couple all.

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Speaker 1: Right, so let's roll the music for better no framework,

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go all right, dude, what do you got? I got

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something that Jeff Fritz and I wrote. Oh nice, Yeah,

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Mattie's mouth just went open.

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Speaker 3: Okay, oh yeah, No one's consuming, but I have a

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feeling I know what this is. I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: All right. So we basically have been experimenting with various

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SEQL server MCP servers right because we want to be

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able to ask our you know, copilot or other LLLM

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tell me about this database and you know, and really

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what it is, it's to allow a customer to ask

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questions about a database and get a report. It turns

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out that's a difficult problem and most of the MCP

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servers that are out there all require you to hand

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them a connection string, and I'm like, no, I don't

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want to give you my connection string. That's now I

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got to put up all these guardrails and you know,

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do all this other stuff tell you not to do,

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and I know lllms don't always do what you tell

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them not to do, or they switch that revers it.

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So we came up with this idea that we want

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to first generate a schema from a database connection string

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in Jason and then create another Jason file that has

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all the you know, tell us about your database, these

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tables and what are the aliases that we can call

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them the fields? Do they have aliases as well? What

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fields are protected? And you should never return them? And

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the whole idea is we want the LM to use

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this data to create a system prompt, and from that

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system prompt, it's got the schema and it's got all

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the other information it does not have access to your database.

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It will generate a select statement, not a delete, not

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an insert, not an update, only a select statement. Fun

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yeah yeah, and from that you can now you get

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what you get. You got a select statement, you can

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execute it. So the it's great because it's safe and

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it's performance because you're doing all your loading up, you know,

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on the fly beforehand, not on the fly, you're doing

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it beforehand. But the problem is it takes a lot

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of token so you know, if tokens.

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Speaker 2: You guys are gonna have to buy and All you

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can Eat package To make this make sense, every developer

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I talk about is really use these tools. You're not

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only in the all you can Eat package for various services.

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You're getting calls from a regular basis going what are

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you doing?

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Speaker 4: Carol and I were talking about Sweetwater the music website before,

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and it's like the rep that calls you and is

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like you want to buy something? They need that for

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like you know tokens, Now, hey you need some more tokens.

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I saw you had a project.

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Speaker 1: I've got some tokens.

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Speaker 2: It certainly makes the case for some time in the

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near future we're going to be back to running local

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hardware to handle these things.

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Speaker 1: It's funny you should say that because I just ordered

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a seven thousand dollars PC gaming PC just to run Olama.

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And maybe I'll use the foundry when that when I

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can figure that one out. But the whole idea, yeah,

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let's let's do this local, because then tokens aren't a problem,

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not going to run out, and you know, now I

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just need a BFI graphics card and a BF computer.

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But you know I'm there, you go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've already talking to development organizations where we're talking

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about putting together a couple of racks of machines, and

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they're calling me because I actually used to do this

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stuff and you can't find a lot of people who

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do it anymore. Saying if we were buying some HP

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two hundred, it's like laying out two or three racks

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worth of gear for a team of thirty that's all shared,

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you know, within can we keep it running? Doesn't make sense,

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like this is actually more cost effective buying that kind

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of equipment than it is to pay for it. And

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it's like right now with the all you can eat

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packages at that scale, it's not, but it will be

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because this is all you think cannot continue, Well, the.

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Speaker 1: Other benefit, just besides tokens is keeping your data local. Right,

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My customers don't want me sharing the data based schema

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with you know, cloud based llms. So all right, well

347
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it's called AVN Data Genie and it's on my GitHub.

348
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So and also we did code it with AI episode

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fourteen about this and you get to see it in

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action and it's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. Good on you guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, cool, that's what I got, Richard, who's talking to

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us today?

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Speaker 2: I got to comment off show nineteen eighty one, and

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that's the show we called The Role of AI and

356
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Software Development came out just before Christmas. We had Jeff

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with us and Bill Wilf and we did in front

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of an audience which has been very rare. Yes, and

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we had a really great group of people involved in

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all that, and of course listened to a ton of comments,

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not the least of which was ones going, boy, this

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sounded like it was going to be a turkey but

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it was really cool and thanks for that. So it's great,

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you know, because it's awfully pretentious to talk that broadly,

365
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but I thought we had the right people in.

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Speaker 1: The room, Like I agree, good conversation.

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Speaker 2: For it, and David grabbed on a comment that I said,

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which was, lots of people going to get hurt, but

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I don't think it's going to be us as rather naive.

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In the long run, it'll all come out in the wash.

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But right at this moment, developers are losing their job

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at companies all over the world as CEOs have been

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promised to dream where a large provider using unspecialized developers

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along AI is a suitable replacement for their subject matter

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experts in ten years time. I figured it'll all be

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figured out, but that doesn't help developers today. Work for

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companies have been sold a lot. You know, I'm not

378
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,839
going to disagree with you, David, because it's not just developers.

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Lots of companies are using the excuse of AI to

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layoff workers, and arguably some of them are even doing

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experiments to see if this technology can actually replace workers,

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and for the most part are failing because these aren't

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replacement for workers, they are work enhancers like most automation is.

384
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I would also point out that we saw weirdness in

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developer employment before chat, GPT and the llms took off.

386
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You know, the pandemic RETAVOC and it seems like the

387
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tech giants as a whole have been using the threat

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of layoff almost as a weapon to keep their employees scared. Yep, right,

389
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you know, and which I find ridiculously offensive. But I

390
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,440
but it's working out for them. They all have record valuations.

391
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Like God, I can't wait for I can't wait for

392
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the a bubble land and just for people to get sane,

393
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:12,799
you know, Like you know, the upside to a recession,

394
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as a guy who went into the workforce in the

395
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eighties during a recession, is that you focus on value,

396
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and right now we really aren't. We're focused on speculation

397
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and insane levels of growth that are unsustainable and damaging

398
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and often stupid, and lots of people are being hurt.

399
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But I made that comment. I don't think it's going

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to be asked what I was thinking long term in

401
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the sense that we are used to building automation childs

402
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for improving people's productivity and using automation kills for protype

403
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and so we typically get to there faster than most

404
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By your right, and I completely agree with you, a

405
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lot of people can be hurt on the way.

406
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Speaker 4: Something about it is just like the multidisciplinaryness of it like,

407
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I'm a PM, but I have a background in software

408
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,880
and so, you know the role of a PM is

409
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,880
kind of in jeopardy too, because the engineers have time

410
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to actually care about the stuff that I care about now. Yeah,

411
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and so it's really fascinating. But I do think, like

412
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you know, it will come out in the wash. I

413
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agree with that it's going to be painful, but I

414
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think we'll be fine in the end. The engineers are

415
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problem solvers, so solve the problem, guys, you'll figure out.

416
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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, the Internet shook everything up. They move

417
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,599
to mobiles, shook everything up. The cloud shake and everything up,

418
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and there were job losses all across those you know,

419
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making run as through the migration to cloud. The number

420
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of assisted men's going. They're letting me go because they

421
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think the cloud will run it all for them. Then

422
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,640
got hired back in one form or another, but also

423
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with their skills and mindset changed. You know, my job

424
00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:49,680
isn't to rack and stack servers anymore, it's to manage them. Yeah, David,

425
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,480
thank you so much for your comment. Obviously it's an

426
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,559
ongoing topic. It's going to be all through shows in

427
00:21:54,599 --> 00:21:57,720
the next few years as this settles out. So we

428
00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:00,440
appreciate your feedback and a copy of music Bias on

429
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,680
its way to you. And if you'd like a copy

430
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,480
of Music co Buying, write a comment on the website

431
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,759
at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We

432
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:07,559
publish every show there. Any comment there and I read

433
00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:08,720
it on the show, we'll send you a copy of

434
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:09,240
music Cobe.

435
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: Okay, now we can talk to Maddie and I'll introduce her.

436
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:16,200
Formerly Mattie. You heard her chiming in there. Mattie Montague

437
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,039
is a senior product manager at Microsoft and the product

438
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,640
lead for Aspire. She's been building dev tools at Microsoft

439
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,920
since twenty eighteen. Before Aspires, she worked across the dot

440
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,799
net stack and brought dot net Maui to life. Maddie

441
00:22:29,839 --> 00:22:33,559
has been obsessed with making developers' lives easier ever since

442
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,640
her first dev tools internship, where she realized that perfectly

443
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,799
combined her high tech background with her passion for product development. Officially,

444
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,119
welcome back to dot net rocks.

445
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Speaker 3: Yay, thank you. I'm excited to be back.

446
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,519
Speaker 4: I gotta tell you, I think the last time I

447
00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:51,319
was here was like three or four years ago, and

448
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:52,640
it was an in person recording.

449
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Speaker 1: No, it wasn't three or four years ago? Was last

450
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,039
year at a dev intersection where you and I aspirefied

451
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,880
dot Net Rocks.

452
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Speaker 2: Well that was oh though, that was a Rocks episode. Yeah, right,

453
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,720
you and David talking about Maui. Yes, maybe it's Doug.

454
00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And we got to jam.

455
00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 3: Yeah we did. Oh my gosh, I was crazy. I

456
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,200
would love to do that again.

457
00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:21,599
Speaker 4: Now now that I've I've dug into your repertoire much

458
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,599
more so, I think I can keep up with you

459
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,559
and Chip Now.

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Speaker 2: When I knew you were moving over to Aspire, literally

461
00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:30,400
my reaction is, oh, I guess it's going to be

462
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,599
a real product. Is now it's going to have adult supervision,

463
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,240
like somebody has to rain and Fowler goodness knows. And

464
00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:38,799
then one thing I know about Maddie is she can. Yes,

465
00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:41,640
she could wrestle these guys of the crowd. They're scared

466
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:42,400
to death of her.

467
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 4: Yes, it's I now say my favorite my favorite pastime

468
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,599
is arguing with Fowler and Damien. It's like the highlight

469
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,079
of every day.

470
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Speaker 2: You've made whole shows around exactly that.

471
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean when I when I was looking at

472
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,920
moving because MAUI touling kind of was in a good place.

473
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:02,160
I was like, I need to do the next thing, right, Like,

474
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,039
what do I do? I don't, I can't. Dave does

475
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:06,920
so much. I did so much, Like we have these

476
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,920
junior pms that were coming up Maui And this was

477
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,160
like two years ago, and I had like a crisis

478
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,039
of faith and I was like, I need something new,

479
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:16,200
and so I went to my SKIP and I was like,

480
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,119
the only thing I'm interested in working on is this

481
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,000
Aspire thing, because they clearly have no idea what they're doing.

482
00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:23,680
They're building something cool, but I don't know what it is.

483
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,599
But I don't know anything about.

484
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 3: The cloud, so it's probably not a good fit.

485
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: And it's kind of an asset coming in because you

486
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,400
don't you know, there's an awful lot of the people

487
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,519
who need Aspire who also don't know.

488
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 4: This right right, And so he was like, well, you know,

489
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,319
there's a lot of strong personalities on the team, and

490
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,720
I was like those two, Yeah, okay.

491
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 2: That's that's what you call strong personality. Okay, so yeah,

492
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,920
there's the least of your concerns.

493
00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 4: About a month in my now manager Glenn, who's you know,

494
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,759
also been around and was part of the dot net

495
00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:55,880
core thing with the two of them.

496
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: But Damien Power, Yeah, he's the best, he says to me.

497
00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:00,319
He goes.

498
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,079
Speaker 4: It turns out all we needed was to put someone

499
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:12,200
from Boston on this team. He was like, it's so funny.

500
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,640
You know, you're just you're just not You're not very

501
00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:16,400
You just don't deal with you don't put up with it.

502
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,599
I was like, yeah, I'm very.

503
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would be correct.

504
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: And and my experience dealing with Damian and David, I'm

505
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:23,559
sure they're delighted.

506
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: Oh they're the.

507
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: Best, absolutely the best.

508
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 4: They're like my two big brothers. I swear like I

509
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,680
rib them like a baby sister and they totally take it.

510
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:31,839
Speaker 3: And I've learned so much.

511
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,559
Speaker 2: But yeah, but I guess that this puts you on

512
00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:38,640
the spot. Then it's now it's your turn. Define Aspire

513
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,599
to us. What is this?

514
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, Aspire as a tool for building apps, for streamlining

515
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,000
app dev local first all the way through to the end.

516
00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: And it's type safe.

517
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: So it is a is a type safe manifest it

518
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,400
is a CLI. It's a set of packages that you

519
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,640
can use to build a what we say distribute an app.

520
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,799
But that's a website with the database, right, like at

521
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:03,160
the end of the.

522
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: Day, and I called it, I think I still do

523
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:10,359
a visual studio template on steroids.

524
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,759
Speaker 4: That's I mean, that's a pretty good way to put it.

525
00:26:13,759 --> 00:26:17,000
It's it's you know, it's a project runner, it's all

526
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:19,799
these different things. It's it's a it's a socker composed

527
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,960
but like times a million.

528
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 2: Because it's also re entrant, right, I mean, the templates

529
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,759
always a starting point and then you have to go

530
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:27,920
on from there and you're never going back, but you

531
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,480
can still go back to the Aspire tools and tweak

532
00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:32,680
things and right, you're not going to destroy the work

533
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:33,079
you've done.

534
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, happy to tell you that a V and data

535
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:38,920
Jenie was done with Aspire. Good. Yeah, yeah, of course

536
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:39,839
Jeff worked on it.

537
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,759
Speaker 2: And you two did that aspire ify dot net rocks,

538
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,400
yes at their last fall, which is hilarious.

539
00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do those. We do streams on Friday. It's

540
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,200
the shameless plug.

541
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 4: So Me, Fowler, Damien and the cast of characters from

542
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,359
the team usually will pick people's apps up and try

543
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,799
to add Aspire to them or implement a feature or whatever,

544
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,559
and it's always a complete mess and it's very funny.

545
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,759
And now we play bingo during it, because there are

546
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,640
just certain things that happen every time.

547
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so.

548
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: You get a card and who hits all of their

549
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:10,599
talking points first or you know, yeah, no.

550
00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 3: One of them is like Maddie swears that happened regularly.

551
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,079
Speaker 2: You can put that in the center because that one's

552
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:16,720
gonna have an air.

553
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,799
Speaker 4: One of them is Fouler going wait pause, wait pause.

554
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,000
So we have a good time on this.

555
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 2: But it's brilliant. Yeah, it's great to see the team. Hey,

556
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,759
they're all lovely people, and like, these are the people

557
00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:34,880
making your product. Yeah, and you put yourselves into jeopardy

558
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,359
every time, Like, I presume the product gets better from

559
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:38,200
this practice.

560
00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

561
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 4: We had someone ask us like, so, do you guys

562
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,319
do it just because you like want to make the

563
00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:45,119
product look good?

564
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: And we were like, no, make the product look good.

565
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:52,799
Speaker 2: It would not be this, no way more plan than that.

566
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,039
But but we've seen this over and over again on

567
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,839
doing various live things. It's like eating it on stage

568
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,160
is good gets good because it's life. Yeah, we all

569
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,960
eat it, yeah, right, and fighting through that and getting

570
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,200
out the other side. That's how you learn to trust stuff.

571
00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:08,039
It's like, sure, it's not going to be easy, but

572
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:08,799
we're gonna get there.

573
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

574
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,599
Speaker 1: So Aspired debuted with dot net eight, right, and then

575
00:28:14,079 --> 00:28:18,319
in dot net nine more stuff, and in dot net ten,

576
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,000
more and more stuff. So maybe we should go through

577
00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:24,440
some of the things that have evolved and Aspire since

578
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,240
dot net eight.

579
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:29,559
Speaker 3: Well, when dot net eight happened, we didn't have chat GPT.

580
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:38,839
Speaker 4: It changed a lot, and so Aspire distributed apps, right

581
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:45,519
like now AI is just a new type of distributed

582
00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:47,759
app endpoint or back end or whatever you want to

583
00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:48,160
call it.

584
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:51,279
Speaker 3: And so Aspire like kind of accidentally.

585
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: Made a really good story for that, Like you were

586
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,559
talking about foundry and getting that running locally, Like, it's

587
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,079
a pain to integrate with an exist app and stack.

588
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,960
It's good to have it running in isolation, but once

589
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,599
you need to build it into it a system, it's

590
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,359
way more complicated. And Aspire basically turns it into another API,

591
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,759
like another project, right Like it totally simplifies that. The

592
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:17,160
other thing is we dropped the name dot net from

593
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:17,640
the title.

594
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: Just call it Aspire.

595
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: That's the big thing that's happened.

596
00:29:20,079 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 4: Just call it Aspire because we're the dot net team,

597
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,240
you know, we don't pretend, but everyone writes apps in

598
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:29,240
multiple languages, Like, once you get to a company of

599
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,920
a certain size, there's no way that they standardize on

600
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:32,640
one language.

601
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 3: It's just not reasonable.

602
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: But I mean, at the minimum you were running C

603
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:38,640
sharp and sequel at the best of times like this.

604
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,160
But the reality is there's probably some JavaScript. I bet

605
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,559
there's some JavaScript like that's kind of unavoidable.

606
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 4: And with with AI pythons everywhere because people are writing you.

607
00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:51,839
Speaker 3: Know, JANKI scripts that make something do something.

608
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,839
Speaker 2: No, and if you've got some badass optimizers, they've written

609
00:29:54,839 --> 00:29:57,240
some C plus plus some rust and step get interface

610
00:29:57,279 --> 00:29:58,559
in front of it so you don't have to touch it.

611
00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

612
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: If you got some weird sunk guys that are out

613
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,000
there with some little Haskell or some f sharp, and

614
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:05,680
again it's just an interface. You off, you go, Yeah,

615
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:08,720
I don't care about your language. Yeah, just wherek in

616
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:10,880
which you're most effective at and give me an API.

617
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:11,559
Speaker 1: I'm good to go.

618
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:12,039
Speaker 3: Yeah.

619
00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 4: And so you know, we were calling it dot Net

620
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,400
Aspire because it was started for dot net, and then

621
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,559
we thought, yeah, job with her front end Python whatever.

622
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:22,200
Obviously I'm sure you too are fully aware because your

623
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,119
show is literally called dot Net Rocks that a lot

624
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,680
of people don't understand that dot net is cross platform,

625
00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:32,799
open source still still. So yeah, we did a user

626
00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:34,960
studies when I had just switched over to Aspire. One

627
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,759
of the PM's in our team, Claudia, was running them.

628
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,240
She was actually trying to get us to completely rebrand

629
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:42,440
and we were like, that's no, like, it's we.

630
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: Can figure this out.

631
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 4: But she, uh, she had someone do like an interview

632
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,720
and she was like, what what would you think about

633
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,440
if someone asked you if you could, like, you know,

634
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:53,319
do a job where there's dot net. And they were like, well,

635
00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:54,720
I don't know how to write like a linked list

636
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,839
from scratch or anything, so I could never And I

637
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:57,200
was like.

638
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: Girl, what, that's crazy, that's the opposite direction. Yeah, I

639
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,200
didn't say assembler, Yeah I know.

640
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 4: And so there's all these crazy misconceptions, and so these

641
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,079
dot net teams were pulling in Aspire left on the

642
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,480
right because it's this crazy good onboarding tool. It's this

643
00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:14,759
crazy good like code safe tool now with agentic dev.

644
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,160
It gives Copilot Guardrails or clod Or or your agent dujor,

645
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,640
and it gives it a really easy way to talk

646
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,279
to the running all the different running pieces in their

647
00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:27,960
logs and everything. We have this MCP. It's just like phenomenal.

648
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,720
But the JavaScript teams were like, we're not touching that.

649
00:31:31,319 --> 00:31:31,880
Let's gross.

650
00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so we were like, we have to we

651
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,000
have to kill the dot net to save the dot

652
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,160
net in it. That's what we did, and we build

653
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,279
the features into dot net.

654
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:45,279
Speaker 1: Well, aspires a good name.

655
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's hard to google, but it is a good name.

656
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,839
And now we have aspired dot dev the domain, so

657
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,720
that's the handle, so that works out, you know, put

658
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:54,680
on my social media.

659
00:31:54,759 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: We're out of the long multi syllabic foundation era of

660
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,519
naming tools and I'm glad.

661
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,039
Speaker 4: Well the only reason they got dot net aspire is

662
00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:07,599
because they put dot net in front of it. So

663
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,319
we had to go back to the table and be

664
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,200
like it's such a generic term, it doesn't matter. Took

665
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,799
a time, wow, Yeah, but it's been it's been a

666
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,519
crazy journey. And now we're looking at like how we

667
00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:24,119
can break further into those other ecosystems, including like could

668
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,359
you have the app host itself written in typescript and

669
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,039
it Jason our PCs to dot net as the thing

670
00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:33,279
that's actually orchestrating everything and kicking it off, so we

671
00:32:33,319 --> 00:32:36,039
don't have to rebuild as fire. But we're basically like,

672
00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:37,839
could we have like a typescript shim so you don't

673
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:39,920
even have to have a C sharp file? Like how

674
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,759
much trojan horsing can we do just to get to

675
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:47,440
a place to help you exactly, just to help you

676
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:49,400
help yourself. You can lead a horse to water, but

677
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,640
you can't make it's all the dot net run time,

678
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:55,480
kind of.

679
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: Like we need to dig a break. Yeah, let's do that.

680
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,880
We'll be right back after these very important messages. Hey

681
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,519
Carl here. You probably know text Control is a powerful

682
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,720
library for document editing and PDF generation, but did you

683
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:13,799
know they're also a strong supporter of the developer community.

684
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,680
It's part of their mission to build and support a

685
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,119
strong developer community by being present, listening to users, and

686
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,039
sharing knowledge at conferences across Europe and the United States.

687
00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:28,480
So if you're heading to a conference soon, check if

688
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,519
text Control will be there and stop buy to say hi.

689
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:36,039
You can find their full conference calendar at dubdubdub dot

690
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,319
textcontrol dot com and make sure you thank them for

691
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:46,240
supporting dot net rocks and we're back. It's dot net

692
00:33:46,319 --> 00:33:49,279
rocks I'm Carl Franklin, That's Richard Campbell, Hey, and that's

693
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:53,160
Mattie Montague and we're talking to Spire. Yeah, Aspire. I

694
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,880
asked you like about the sort of the evolution from

695
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,799
dot net eight and into nine and ten, and you

696
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,640
know where were the most significant updates in that evolution.

697
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,279
Speaker 3: Well, we we've been moving fast.

698
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 4: I think the first big thing that was a huge

699
00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:12,800
change was the CLI.

700
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: We shipped a CLI and so we we were like.

701
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 4: You know, why do I have to why can't we

702
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,039
have a tool like everybod else everybody has a CLI tool.

703
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:24,599
Speaker 3: That'd be fun.

704
00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: Now you can just Aspire run instead of dot Net run,

705
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,679
appost project or whatever it is. And that was the

706
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,880
first kind of custom Aspire experience for tooling we built

707
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,360
that wasn't just like the VS stuff and the extensions

708
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,480
and whatever that was that was crazy.

709
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,519
Speaker 3: We did not know what we were getting into, but

710
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,000
we got into it. That was probably the first big.

711
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: Shift from the original Aspire, right, Like I think everything

712
00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:52,440
that shipped originally was crazy, and the iterations on it

713
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:55,400
have been insane, Like the amount that just the integrations,

714
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,599
like the packages that have our opinions in them. The

715
00:34:57,599 --> 00:34:59,719
a month that those have grown and matured is a lot.

716
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:01,599
It's been a super incremental.

717
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:04,079
Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting to have that development angle of

718
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,039
it's opinionated in the sense of thinking distributed specifically, you know,

719
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,960
ideally for cloud right, that sort of cloud native mindset

720
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:13,760
where you're pulling in services and so forth, and so

721
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,599
it kind of gives you a set of scaffolds to

722
00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:18,079
go down the right path on that, yeah, which is

723
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,559
very language and platform agnostic actually, but it is still opinionated, right.

724
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:25,559
And the funny part now is that and then AI

725
00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:27,760
stuff shows up and you know what it needs.

726
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 3: Opinions, opinions guardrails.

727
00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like you're just trying a right place right time.

728
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,480
If I'm sticking an LM in the playpen of Aspire,

729
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:42,559
it likely not hurt me less, Like it needs those

730
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:44,519
opinions to kind of do the right thing. I'm trying

731
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:47,159
to get to a nice cloud native design, thinks yep.

732
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:49,039
And here's a set of guardrails, yep.

733
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: And it has a hard time managing like multiple terminal processes.

734
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,519
So it's like instead of NPM run and Docker and

735
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,239
the boat, it just Aspire runs it. It's one command, right,

736
00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:01,760
and so the CLI accidentally really helped us with that too.

737
00:36:02,159 --> 00:36:05,639
And then the next big thing we shipped a version

738
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:05,920
of co.

739
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,159
Speaker 1: Pilot, and that's the az Dev cl I.

740
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,599
Speaker 4: No, the Aspire Cli, the Aspire Cli, Aspire if you

741
00:36:11,639 --> 00:36:15,199
will Aspire run. We have shirts that say it.

742
00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: I got two new Englanders on the show at the

743
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:18,480
same time.

744
00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: I get all this accentrific for you, wicked piss.

745
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 4: And then but a year ago we started working on

746
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:27,719
co pilot in the dashboard because we were like, well,

747
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,400
everyone has a chat now that you ask questions. MCP

748
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,800
hadn't really become I don't know if you saw this

749
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,519
the other day, Miguel posted MCP as the new soap, right,

750
00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:42,679
that's unfortunately, very good tweet Miguel, He's right, but it

751
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,800
wasn't a real thing yet. So we were like James

752
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,599
Newton king on our team, like went away from the

753
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:48,239
holidays and came back and was like, so I built

754
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,440
a co pilot in the dashboard and we were like what.

755
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,679
So we shipped that and by the time that was

756
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:56,119
out the door, MCP had started to catch on. And

757
00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:59,440
now we have an Aspire MCP and so that will

758
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:01,320
you know, can to the dashboard and it can talk

759
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,400
to all of your resources at once from whatever your

760
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,199
coding agent environment is. And those have been the really

761
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,480
I think to me, those have been the really big

762
00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:12,880
moments of like things that we've shipped that have completely

763
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,079
changed what Aspire was since we started.

764
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: There's a zillion incremental things, and there's a lot.

765
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 4: Of under the hood stuff in the app post that changed,

766
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,239
and how we actually run things. We overhauled our JavaScript

767
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,960
and Python support so they actually felt like more natural.

768
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,559
That was a really fun exercise in untraining ourselves from

769
00:37:32,639 --> 00:37:34,480
all of the things we thought are true, and also

770
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:38,039
writing casing completely differently because JavaScript is the camel case.

771
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

772
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:44,039
Speaker 2: Nice, Yeah, But I got a question, Okay, why thirteen?

773
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 3: Because why not?

774
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: I could think of a bunch of why not? Now

775
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,480
what exactly you're talking about?

776
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,519
Speaker 2: Like you put out dot Net ten and so you

777
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:56,000
figured you have Aspire ten and said we get Aspire thirteen.

778
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 3: No, No, because all you people, and I'm saying this with.

779
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: Love, who do you call you people?

780
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,320
Speaker 4: You people, the people of the dot net community. All

781
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,159
you people kept going, well, I can't use as fire

782
00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:10,840
or nine because I'm on dot net eight. And we

783
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,239
were like, it doesn't matter. We just sinked up versions

784
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,519
because it was easier, and everyone was like, well, when

785
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:17,320
as Fire ten comes out, I can't upgrade to dot

786
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,760
net ten, or like dot Net nine is in an

787
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,679
LTS release, so I can't use a fire And we're like,

788
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:24,960
doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. So we said we're going

789
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:28,159
to change the version. I wanted to go back to one.

790
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:29,960
I thought that would be cool instead of dot Net

791
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,639
Aspire nine. It'd be a spy.

792
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: So you figured you wouldn't get any emails saying I

793
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,440
can't wait till dot Net thirteen.

794
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:37,559
Speaker 3: Yeah.

795
00:38:37,599 --> 00:38:40,599
Speaker 4: Well that and we were sitting in a meeting and

796
00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:41,880
I was talking about it, and they were like, you

797
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,400
can't on you can't downgrade, and you get package even

798
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,599
if it's a newer urion, right, so we'd have to

799
00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:49,800
break all of our packages. Yeah, you have to get

800
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,239
So we were like, well we had to go higher

801
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,280
than ten. Eleven feels like we're just kind of like, WHOA,

802
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:54,840
I don't want.

803
00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 3: To be ten? Yeah, and why would you pick twelve

804
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,440
when thirteen is right there? Like that's way more fun.

805
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 4: This is the reasoning, this is the actual reasoning. We

806
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,320
were sitting I love it, and I was in a

807
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,239
room actually in Seattle. I was out there and we

808
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,760
had Mitch, who's in Australia, on the phone and he goes,

809
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:11,159
why don't we just do thirteen? And me and him

810
00:39:11,159 --> 00:39:13,079
like lock, I aswer the team's call, and I'm like

811
00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:14,440
this is terrible.

812
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: Yeah and brilliant. Screw them.

813
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,519
Speaker 4: I remember coming home and my husband was like, why

814
00:39:18,559 --> 00:39:20,000
did they let you make decisions?

815
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:24,199
Speaker 3: Like you should not go out decisions? And I was like,

816
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:24,679
it's great.

817
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: And then we you know, we made stickers with little

818
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,719
black cats on them, and we're like super into it.

819
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,119
We're going to do something for Friday the thirteenth, and

820
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,280
there's two of this year, there's February and March.

821
00:39:33,559 --> 00:39:35,119
Speaker 3: Right, we don't know what we're gonna do yet, we're

822
00:39:35,119 --> 00:39:35,679
gonna do something.

823
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,599
Speaker 1: At the next meeting where you're thinking about a name

824
00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:39,119
for something, bring up Duncan.

825
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:41,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I like that.

826
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 4: The real question now is like what's the next version,

827
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:45,920
Like do we go to fourteen or do we stick with.

828
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,199
Speaker 3: Only be primes? We could go to seventeen.

829
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, rules, that's it.

830
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: I love it. Only primes that's great.

831
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 2: But I to your point, this is the version we

832
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,400
adumpt the dot net name where you focus on things

833
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,719
like Python and JavaScript, being first cross members like you're

834
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,079
being the Aspire you want to be and tying yourself

835
00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:14,000
to version numbers is bad. It's just really bad. Yeah.

836
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:20,679
Speaker 1: Were there any significant bug fixes in the last version. Yeah, okay,

837
00:40:21,679 --> 00:40:21,920
we have.

838
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:26,119
Speaker 4: We're I've learned to be proud of our bug debt

839
00:40:26,519 --> 00:40:29,079
because that moves that we're moving fast, which you're kind

840
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:31,400
of have toy right now. There will be a contraction

841
00:40:31,519 --> 00:40:34,480
phase where everybody goes and makes quality the most important

842
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,559
thing again. And we've done that kind of periodically over

843
00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:38,320
the last year, like we've taken a release or two

844
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,280
to just be like bug fixes only. There were a

845
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,519
lot of weird things with SERTs and getting open telemetry

846
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:53,159
wired up, especially cross language, and Damien and David Negstad

847
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:58,800
and Carol on our developer control Plane team, they also

848
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,239
have spent a ton of work basic like figuring out

849
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,199
how to optimize devserts for all different languages, container orized

850
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,360
or not without being too heavy handed on your machine.

851
00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:14,079
And it was I have no idea, I have no

852
00:41:14,119 --> 00:41:15,840
idea how they made it work, but they made it work,

853
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:17,480
and so it's kind of a feature.

854
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: But it felt like a bug fix.

855
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,039
Speaker 4: Because you would run something that you'd think would work

856
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:22,880
and it didn't.

857
00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's very much how you actually serve developers

858
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,239
as you go where they are, and the sart strategy

859
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,480
that a Python developer may be using in his organization.

860
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,760
If you're not supporting it, that guy's out. Yeah, you're gone.

861
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,000
You can't interfere with my right plumbing, right, the homework

862
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:45,320
of whatevery, you know, because he barely understood when we

863
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,639
got set up in the first place. Nobody understands. That's

864
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,320
just reality. But if you don't work with their sert strategy,

865
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:50,920
they're out.

866
00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:52,679
Speaker 4: It has been fun to see how spoiled we are

867
00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:54,760
as dot net developers, Like we all love to complain,

868
00:41:55,119 --> 00:41:56,639
you know, we're developers.

869
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:57,199
Speaker 3: We complain.

870
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 4: But you have dot net devserts and you just run

871
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:02,400
the thing and it just does the thing right. Nobody

872
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,760
else has that wow, or there's you know, eighteen million

873
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,599
branches of how it works, and something like typescript or

874
00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:11,760
gihon a script it's like, oh, you could do it

875
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,000
this way, or you could do this way, or you

876
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,280
could do it this way, or you could just set

877
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,159
this environment variable. That just makes it so that no

878
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,079
TLS is authorized anymore on your machine from the node

879
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:21,880
run time, And it's like right.

880
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 2: Uh oh, well yeah, and everybody, everybody has a different

881
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,599
way of approaching this, and a lot of organizations and

882
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:33,519
a lot of different techniques. They literally punt it's like

883
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:35,880
use whatever you want, which another way of saying welcome

884
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,679
to hell. Yep, yeah, right, no, two ways.

885
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:40,639
Speaker 1: And the fact that I won't be responsible.

886
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:43,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, well Microsoft did the right. The thing about dot

887
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:45,880
net dev SERTs is brilliant free free, right, you know

888
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,719
what you do to not have to ask the boss

889
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,000
for anything this, yes, and so that's what they'll do.

890
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can still do it. It's using under

891
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:55,320
the hood.

892
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 4: It uses the things that you use, right, Like we're

893
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,679
not reinventing the wheel, which is a problem.

894
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,679
Speaker 3: We've definitely gotten into in dot net in the past.

895
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 4: I think like where we'll be like we can do

896
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:05,760
it better, like we're going to build a whole new

897
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,719
thing for this, but we've we've gotten far away from that,

898
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,840
especially like you know, in my decade or so a

899
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,880
little bit less being in dot netland, where we do

900
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:17,960
we do it so that you can always break out

901
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:20,360
and do what the thing is under the hood if

902
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,079
you want to and you don't want to use our stuff,

903
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:24,239
and we carry that opinion into a spire where we

904
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,000
have these opinions and these packages.

905
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: But if you want to just write code to do whatever,

906
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,280
we don't care. Go nuts, have fun.

907
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,039
Speaker 1: Nice what's next?

908
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:31,599
Speaker 3: Huh?

909
00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: And what's left to do? Oh my god?

910
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: Well you're thirteen point one. So and by the way, Mady,

911
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:39,639
I just get a thrill every time I hear the

912
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:43,079
PM version of you come out with is, Hey, we're

913
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:44,880
going to do fixed versions, and we're going to do

914
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,199
feature versions, like you've just been down this road so

915
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,760
many times, Like I hear those sounds. So thirteen point

916
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,039
one is out. You big up to thirteen. We use

917
00:43:57,039 --> 00:43:58,800
a heavy left. That's a whole lot of features. I

918
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,079
got to think that the one is okay? How those

919
00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:04,880
actually land? Like what did we get in? Like this

920
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,840
is it's a stabilization rev mm hmm yep.

921
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 4: Thirteen one was a lot of okay, Like these are

922
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,639
things that we because we wanted to ship at dot

923
00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:14,880
net cof right, because even though we were like, oh,

924
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,000
our whole thing is we're dropping dot Net. Like writing

925
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,320
the keynote script was very weird. Because I was like,

926
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,440
it has to be like we're dot net and we

927
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,400
love this and like this is not bad, but also

928
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,559
we don't want to lie. Yeah, and so we you know,

929
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,599
we totally sank that up and then we shipped thirteen

930
00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:33,400
one like three or four weeks later because we just

931
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,119
there were things that we were like, yeah, you know

932
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,679
that didn't get in that could be cleaned up. We're

933
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:41,400
also trying to react as Foundry has been developing like crazy.

934
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,320
We want to make sure we have good experiences for that.

935
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,639
And so our next release, thirteen to two is coming out.

936
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 3: Did it What month is it? It's January? Yeah, I

937
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,480
don't know what's come out, but.

938
00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:56,199
Speaker 1: It's January at my house.

939
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 3: It's not out yet.

940
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, so time is illusion lunchtime, doubly sing.

941
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 3: That's true, It's true.

942
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 4: That's definitely more of a stabilization and a docks release,

943
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,280
Like we're really hunkering down on it because we build

944
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:09,719
our own website. So now we have docks on our

945
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,280
own website, right, so we're making that easier. We're looking at,

946
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,119
you know, how to get the team to be able

947
00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:18,920
to contribute docs more without having to have our one

948
00:45:19,039 --> 00:45:21,880
four docks guide just right at all? Right, and then

949
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:23,599
and using AI for that of course?

950
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:25,559
Speaker 2: Is that is that a learn engine? Aneath at it?

951
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 3: We built our.

952
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 4: Own wow wow, Yeah, we we had a lot of

953
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,519
arguments about it. Part of it was just because we

954
00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:38,360
wanted to build our website without dot Net and deploy

955
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,519
it with a spire using the internal deployment stuff, which

956
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:42,760
is a nightmare.

957
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,159
Speaker 1: This is you dog fooding.

958
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we wanted to be able to say we

959
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,760
have this aspire ified thing that isn't dot net, right yeah,

960
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,800
and learn, I mean learning a whole bunch of other stuff.

961
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, you're not going to lift a whole learn

962
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,280
engine into that, So we kind of got to do

963
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:56,400
it your way right.

964
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,639
Speaker 3: Control the brand, Yeah, and we thought it would be fun.

965
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, the brand control is great, And like we're using

966
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:03,880
Astro and Starlight, which is really cool. They actually just

967
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,960
got bought like a week ago, but now we're like

968
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,840
one of their showcase sites and so it's been a

969
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,800
really cool way to like build out networks outside of

970
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,880
our usual realm and it's really easy.

971
00:46:16,159 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: It was super easy.

972
00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:21,159
Speaker 2: So but anyways, doc debt a link to that to

973
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,800
Astro build Like folks need to know.

974
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,199
Speaker 1: This is cool. Stuff.

975
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's open source by the way, Microsoft Slash

976
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,400
is fired dot dev on GitHub. So doc stet is

977
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,280
this release. And then we have to get back into two.

978
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,679
There's two big things. One is deployment. We have a

979
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,079
lot of we've we've kind of settled on a direction,

980
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:45,079
but it's not done. Aspire has always been local first,

981
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,079
and then we've made it using AZD or whatever like

982
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,800
pretty trivial to spin up a dev environment. But obviously

983
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,599
most people want to put things in pipelines or hand

984
00:46:54,639 --> 00:46:58,320
them off to their DevOps team, or run checks against

985
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,639
things and CI and et cetera. And so we've started

986
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:04,519
this concept of as fire pipelines and build steps and

987
00:47:04,559 --> 00:47:06,239
all these things, and we need to polish that up

988
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,840
and actually finish it and build out stories outside of Azure.

989
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,159
Because we are multi cloud, you can use AWS and Vanilla,

990
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,440
Docker and Digital Ocean with a spire.

991
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:20,519
Speaker 2: But so GCP will work fine then too.

992
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:23,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it does work now, it's just

993
00:47:23,679 --> 00:47:25,639
you have to spit out the app posts as a

994
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:28,280
manifest and then translate that into whatever the artifacts are.

995
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,599
And so that's a big thing we're building out. The

996
00:47:31,639 --> 00:47:34,840
other thing is obviously AI. Both using and building AI,

997
00:47:35,679 --> 00:47:39,719
and so the MCP is crazy.

998
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:41,079
Speaker 3: A Spire MCP and the.

999
00:47:41,039 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 4: Playwright MCP together, My god, it is truly like hands

1000
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,400
off because Playwright navigator.

1001
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,639
Speaker 2: I am so in danger when I play with the

1002
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:52,880
Playwright MCP of losing a day every single time I

1003
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,599
touch it. It's an instant rabbit hole.

1004
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:55,519
Speaker 3: It's brilliant.

1005
00:47:55,559 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: We use Playwright MCP to automatically generate documentary for a website.

1006
00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:05,280
I think it was Jeff's website probably yeah, yeah, and

1007
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,199
it did screenshots.

1008
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,039
Speaker 3: And now at hire MVP yep.

1009
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 1: Everything.

1010
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 4: It gets the logs, it gets the telemetry, it gets

1011
00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:15,360
the errors. It can stop and restart individual resources and

1012
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,840
run commands against them, et cetera. And then play right's

1013
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,320
the one that's actually clicking for you? And it's like what.

1014
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:23,960
But then on the other end, you know, I want

1015
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,719
to be able to add a resource into my app

1016
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,280
that's an AI resource, and so I want to be

1017
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,199
able to point it to a deployment on Foundry, which

1018
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,639
they have their whole new their like next gen Foundry

1019
00:48:33,679 --> 00:48:35,519
experience that we were trying to build around.

1020
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,519
Speaker 1: Tell us about Foundry just really quickly. I mean, I

1021
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:42,079
think of it as a Microsoft alternative to a LAMA.

1022
00:48:42,159 --> 00:48:44,159
But tell me what it is.

1023
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 3: Officially, Foundry is. I hope no one on the Foundry

1024
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,320
heame ever listens to this. It's a hub.

1025
00:48:50,559 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 4: For AI cloud apps, right, agentic apps, so you can

1026
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,679
get all your models, you can get all your very

1027
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,800
lightweight like data and stuff all there. It's a playground.

1028
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,760
The web experience came first. Foundry Local is their o

1029
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,920
LAMA thing. Yeah, yeah, and it's all this kind of

1030
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,400
one brand. Really, the point of it is to pull

1031
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,920
the complexity of Azure out of the experience because, as

1032
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,119
you all know, like if you're an Azure dev or

1033
00:49:22,199 --> 00:49:24,760
someone who's an Azure admin, like there's a rabbit hole.

1034
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,119
And so Foundry really streamlines it and makes it super

1035
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:29,559
easy for people who aren't already in the Azure ecosystem

1036
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:32,840
to hop in and start playing around. We also, like

1037
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,840
we have a GitHub models integration, We have just a

1038
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,760
generic open AI integration. You can stick any connection string

1039
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,719
anywhere into your spire app host. But having a really

1040
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,239
streamlined Foundry experience is good for all you. And also,

1041
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,440
like Rich was saying earlier, it's good for us because

1042
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,280
it ties us to revenue, like we're an open source project,

1043
00:49:50,599 --> 00:49:53,320
So we need to tie to revenue or when the

1044
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,039
contraction happens and the bubble starts to burst a little bit,

1045
00:49:57,079 --> 00:49:59,039
we need to make sure that we are actually like

1046
00:49:59,519 --> 00:50:02,960
increase and shareholder value.

1047
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: Every CFO is going to go to every death and

1048
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,400
say show your ROI yep, And if you can show

1049
00:50:10,599 --> 00:50:13,440
that you're providing value to the company, you live. And

1050
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,119
if you don't, you're gone.

1051
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's a win win for Foundry because they

1052
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,639
don't have to worry as much about the devas, which

1053
00:50:20,679 --> 00:50:23,360
is a really complicated problem right now, the devas of

1054
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,519
building AI apps. Like, yeah, together we've really been able

1055
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:29,000
to create a good story.

1056
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 2: Well and just that awareness to put people in a

1057
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,079
place where they can demonstrate value.

1058
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: That's good tooling.

1059
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,599
Speaker 2: You know, you can't have to remind people are supping

1060
00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:40,000
Microft actually a tooling company. Yes, that's what it was

1061
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:42,840
really always about. Yeah, they happen to make languages and

1062
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,840
things along the way, you know, arguably against their will

1063
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,800
they had to, but they you know, and it's easy

1064
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,440
to focus on that.

1065
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the business is tooling.

1066
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean as fire was originally called a stack,

1067
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:59,000
which whole other thing, and it's it's the gottenet platform

1068
00:50:59,039 --> 00:51:00,920
team that built a fire, like not the dot net

1069
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,800
tooling team, right, And at some point after I had joined,

1070
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:04,400
we kind of were.

1071
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,639
Speaker 3: Like, this is kind of a tool. Is this tool?

1072
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,159
And it totally changed our perspective on.

1073
00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: All of it.

1074
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then suddenly the languages don't matter and the

1075
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,719
platforms don't matter and it's just about being productive.

1076
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:16,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep.

1077
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: And at the same and all the good stuff I

1078
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,119
see three different axis is moving at once. Right, that

1079
00:51:21,159 --> 00:51:23,840
there is a shift of the platforms underneath you, a

1080
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,440
shift of the languages off of the side. And then

1081
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,480
suddenly this new wave of tooling with llms and things,

1082
00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:32,239
and you need to hook into each of them. Like

1083
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,079
you look at this list of features, like why are

1084
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:35,639
they worried about this? It's like, because this is all

1085
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:38,480
the stuff that will stop you, yes, as a developer,

1086
00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:39,400
from using this tool.

1087
00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1088
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. And what a battle.

1089
00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:47,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, we have a constant you know battle, that's how

1090
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,639
much do we do and force ourselves to own versus

1091
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:53,800
how much do we let you fiddle around with? And

1092
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,480
so we still we haven't really come up with any

1093
00:51:57,639 --> 00:52:00,719
strict guidelines yet, Like I think we're now we're talking

1094
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,039
about like, should we have install things for you if

1095
00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:04,719
they're in your appost and you don't have them, Like

1096
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:06,360
does that make sense? Or should we point you at

1097
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,079
something like is that too heavy handed? But for us,

1098
00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:11,119
it's just you should be able to break out of

1099
00:52:11,159 --> 00:52:14,159
the of our opinions at any time, like no black

1100
00:52:14,199 --> 00:52:15,679
boxes is our number one thing.

1101
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 2: That's exactly the thing I was thinking. You have opinions,

1102
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,840
but so do your customers. Yes, and so it's always

1103
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,360
a question of whose opinions are more tightly held.

1104
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 4: Right right in our given moment, loosely held but we

1105
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:29,159
think they're good.

1106
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you can you can pop out at anything.

1107
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,519
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what to do. The fact that

1108
00:52:33,559 --> 00:52:35,400
you have an opinion makes my life better. But if

1109
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,679
I haven't told that's the way I'm doing things, you

1110
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,320
need to back off on your opinion or I have

1111
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:40,079
to go somewhere else.

1112
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:41,119
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly.

1113
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: So the Greenfield story is pretty obvious. You start with

1114
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,360
a new visual studio template, you say I want an

1115
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,960
Aspire template, and then you go from there. Even if

1116
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,719
you're not using any of the caches and all that stuff,

1117
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,480
you could still just start that way and you get

1118
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,519
a little bit of extra stuff like the startup app,

1119
00:52:59,519 --> 00:53:02,000
and then you have to click your app to run it.

1120
00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:05,599
But it's not it's not going to impede anything, right,

1121
00:53:05,639 --> 00:53:09,199
so you should always start a new project with aspire I. Yes,

1122
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,159
but the brown Field thing is a little bit different,

1123
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:14,960
isn't it. And then this is what we did on

1124
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,840
stage that we were talking about. We aspiified dot net Rocks,

1125
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,639
the dot NetRocks dot com website, and it was pretty

1126
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:24,000
freaking easy.

1127
00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:28,559
Speaker 4: It's it's it's really a manifest, like it's a type

1128
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:31,000
safe manifest. There are things you have to wiggle your

1129
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,880
way through sometimes, and especially with older dot net apps.

1130
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,559
So we had Handsleman come on and do it a

1131
00:53:36,559 --> 00:53:39,880
spiification of his podcast website too, and and you know,

1132
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,519
he's using the same builder pattern that he used in

1133
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,960
dot net Core and we're like, bro, like, doesn't work

1134
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,639
like that anymore. So there's definitely this modernization that has

1135
00:53:49,679 --> 00:53:52,119
to happen because one of our opinions, right is we're

1136
00:53:52,159 --> 00:53:54,320
not gonna let you keep using the old stuff, because

1137
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,039
we don't want the tech det of supporting all the

1138
00:53:56,079 --> 00:53:59,760
old stuff and every matrix of that. We would never

1139
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,239
be a to get anything done if we had to

1140
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,920
worry about you know, the original ihose builders.

1141
00:54:04,039 --> 00:54:07,199
Speaker 2: So you are forcing me down the pit of modernization here.

1142
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if I remember correctly, it was just like

1143
00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:13,199
a right click on a solution or something, and it

1144
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,880
was like ad Aspire or was that easy?

1145
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:16,760
Speaker 3: It's that easy.

1146
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 4: And now we have a command line experience too, so

1147
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,599
we'll look and we'll a knit and we're starting to

1148
00:54:21,599 --> 00:54:23,199
build out for multiple languages. So if you have a

1149
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,400
job strip front end and dot Net back end, we

1150
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,039
can aspireify that from the command line, from VS code

1151
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:32,079
or from vs without you having to jump through hoops.

1152
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,079
Speaker 1: So I did a I have a customer that we

1153
00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:40,800
hire Jeff Fritz to aspireify their application, right dot net

1154
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,559
Blazer application, and he did it and it worked fine.

1155
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:46,800
But there was only one thing that got in the way,

1156
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,039
and that was we were using poly the in it,

1157
00:54:51,159 --> 00:54:54,039
and then you know, Aspire wants to use the poly

1158
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,960
stuff that's in the dot Net framework, but you know,

1159
00:54:58,079 --> 00:55:00,440
just different name spaces and things like that, so that

1160
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:02,239
became a little bit of a tweak that we had

1161
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:03,880
to get around. But other than that, it was just

1162
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:04,679
like easy.

1163
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, we turned It's one of another one of those

1164
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,800
things we turn on because we think you should probably

1165
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,159
have some level of resiliency.

1166
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you can just comment that out.

1167
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 4: Like, that's the reason that the service defaults, which is

1168
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,639
our our opinions for a dot net back end or

1169
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:21,480
a dot net app, whatever it is. That's the reason

1170
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,000
it's a template and not a package you pull in

1171
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,719
so that you can go into it and comment things out.

1172
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,599
Speaker 1: It was very easy, Yeah, easy to upgrade. So good

1173
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:35,760
names all around Greenfield, Brownfield, yeah, blue Field. Yeah.

1174
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 4: The other thing, like we keep talking about, nobody's going

1175
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,440
to make an Aspire app that's not like a thing.

1176
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: It's an app that uses a spire.

1177
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 4: So you'll do NPM create or you'll clone a template,

1178
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,440
or you'll go into visual Studio and you'll do file

1179
00:55:49,559 --> 00:55:52,440
new project. And like, aspires should be easy to add

1180
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,119
in at any stage.

1181
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: I can tell you the other side of this is

1182
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,719
coming into a project as a consultant and someone says,

1183
00:55:57,719 --> 00:55:59,719
we used Aspire for this thought. I know a bunch

1184
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,719
of stuf about you know, hmm right, I know a

1185
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:03,760
whole bunch about this app. Things you will do and

1186
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,360
won't do if Aspire is actually working.

1187
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 4: And you know, it'll probably be running on your machine

1188
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,639
that day instead of in two weeks.

1189
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, but they never call you when

1190
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:14,599
there's everything's working.

1191
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:15,199
Speaker 3: Well, that's true.

1192
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: That's a good point.

1193
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 3: That's a great point.

1194
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: So so where are you struggling? Well, Maddie, it's been

1195
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,440
wicked awesome talking to you. And is there anything sorry?

1196
00:56:25,519 --> 00:56:28,599
And is there anything else a that we missed that

1197
00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:31,639
you want to I don't think so.

1198
00:56:32,039 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 3: I mean it's going to be a crazy year. I

1199
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,920
think is going to be a wild ride hopefully.

1200
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 4: I see you guys at MVP SUMM.

1201
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 3: You know you're doing the two thousandth episode. That'll be great.

1202
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

1203
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:45,079
Speaker 2: I've got a I've got a special guest list to

1204
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:46,800
make sure folks can get in there because it's going

1205
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:47,320
to sell out.

1206
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: So you're on that list, my dear, Oh I will.

1207
00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think it's going to be a fun year.

1208
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,320
Speaker 4: We're hoping to do an Aspire centric online event, like

1209
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:58,920
similar to a dot net conf but about aspire'd be

1210
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,719
great at some point, So keep your ears open. I

1211
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,719
might tap you too for that. As the dot net heads,

1212
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,639
maybe you can come in and represent the old Guard.

1213
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: It would be the token old dot net guys.

1214
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, really good for the for the stereotypes.

1215
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you need a Python time when you

1216
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:17,719
need us.

1217
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, have someone in mind.

1218
00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: I'll circle back with you.

1219
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:25,239
Speaker 1: Of that, everybody has to be wearing depends. That's the yes,

1220
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:26,559
that's the me too.

1221
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,519
Speaker 4: On the outside, the streams can get long, you know,

1222
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:35,199
I get it. But yeah, Aspire dot dev is the

1223
00:57:35,199 --> 00:57:37,519
home for everything Aspire, right, so that's the fight now,

1224
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:39,480
I love it, So just go there.

1225
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 3: We stream on Fridays. We're doing more content. We're around.

1226
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,239
We're pretty honest to a fault. So we have a discord.

1227
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,800
It's all link on the website coming.

1228
00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:52,679
Speaker 1: Out And Maddie, what's your home base on the web

1229
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:53,239
these days?

1230
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,159
Speaker 4: Probably Blue Sky is the thing I use the most,

1231
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,400
although I now I get to impersonate Aspire. I'm logged

1232
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,239
in as that brand account, which is horrifying.

1233
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,159
Speaker 2: Wow, but a god, you have a brand account.

1234
00:58:05,239 --> 00:58:08,039
Speaker 1: Look at you as is here.

1235
00:58:08,199 --> 00:58:11,199
Speaker 4: At Aspire dot dev the website or at Mattie Montacuola

1236
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,159
dot net is my personal one, which I use but

1237
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,440
mostly just to retweet other people or heckel Fowler.

1238
00:58:17,519 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 2: So great and we all know you need to heckle

1239
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:21,559
Fowler more.

1240
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, Maddie. We'll catch up with you

1241
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,559
later this year. Thanks. See you guys, all right, thanks

1242
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:52,039
and we'll talk to you next time. Rock dot Net

1243
00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:55,039
Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced

1244
00:58:55,079 --> 00:58:58,920
by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post

1245
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,079
production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of

1246
00:59:03,119 --> 00:59:08,039
course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit

1247
00:59:08,079 --> 00:59:10,199
our website at d O T N E t R

1248
00:59:10,239 --> 00:59:14,199
O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1249
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:18,000
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1250
00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:21,440
back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1251
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,119
and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1252
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,280
They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1253
00:59:27,639 --> 00:59:28,400
See you next time.

1254
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,079
Speaker 3: You got jamdvans

1255
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:33,239
Speaker 2: And