WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:09.400 Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:13.240 are your favor It's so like say subscribe and raid it. 3 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:16.120 Live Stock and Me. 4 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:25.320 Greatest Gone Yesterday and listening watching Lin always keep its watching. 5 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:31.440 And now your hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bobo Fay Bobo. 6 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:32.280 How are you doing today? 7 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:33.799 Pretty good? Cliff, how's going with you? 8 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:37.119 I'm pretty good, man. Things are all right. The museums 9 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:39.759 humming along, which is great despite the rainy day. I 10 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.119 spent four or five hours with the Long Term Witness 11 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:47.000 yesterday up there across the river from Longview, Washington in 12 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.000 that general area. Really interesting stuff is going on up there, 13 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:53.159 but that is nothing at all compared to what we 14 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.079 have in store today for the podcast. Yeah, hell man, 15 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.200 I don't know how you feel abouts, but usually it pod. 16 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:02.119 I'm looking forward to it. This is gonna be great, 17 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:04.560 but today I'm actually nervous. 18 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:09.680 Oh dude. I skipped all my appointments today. I didn't 19 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:12.000 want to get an offender, benders, anything that happened to 20 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:14.319 making miss this. I was like, no way, because we 21 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:18.319 got a giant in the field. His book's one of 22 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.200 the top three books on like Relic Comin has ever 23 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:21.719 written the. 24 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:23.920 Yeah, well, his first book is one of the best 25 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.400 books ever written in that The Images of the Wild 26 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.319 Man in Southeast Asia. But he has a new book 27 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.079 coming out in May. From what I understand, where he 28 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:35.400 actually says pretty much straight out and wait, of course 29 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.760 we'll get it from this gentleman in a minute, pretty 30 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:41.959 much straight out, like, hey, there might be another hominoid alive. 31 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:47.400 And for someone with degrees in anthropology to say that, well, 32 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.879 that's sticking one's neck out pretty far. A little bit 33 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.599 less so today because there is a paradigm now for 34 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:57.200 religd hominoids. But twenty thirty years ago, I mean he 35 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.599 would have been chased out of town with pitchforks and torches. 36 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.159 So I am we are out of our minds with 37 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:07.680 excitement to welcome doctor Gregory Fourth to Bigfoot and beyond. 38 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.560 Doctor Fourth, Thank you so much for coming on our 39 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:11.840 little podcast here. 40 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:13.719 You're welcome, very welcome. 41 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.000 When I saw in my news feed there was an 42 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:19.639 article I think it was a New Scientist, that an 43 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:23.639 anthropologist is suggesting that there might be another homanoid species 44 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.719 alive and well in Indonesia, down in flores I immediately thought 45 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:29.560 of your book, of course, and I started reading and 46 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:32.080 I saw you were the author of the article. I 47 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:35.520 was just over the moon, so thrilled that you've come 48 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.639 out with another book on it seems like it's going 49 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:41.840 to mostly be focused on the Ebugogo. I don't know 50 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:42.759 if that's true or not. 51 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:48.680 No, not quite this. Geographically, the focus of this book 52 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:56.240 is a region towards the eastern end of Flores, very 53 00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:00.439 mountainous region towards the eastern end of Flores, which is 54 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:05.840 inhabited by people called Leo l Io is how it's 55 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:13.080 how it's usually spelt. And the creature that they recognize 56 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:18.479 as an animal that lives in their forests, especially their 57 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:25.479 mountain forests, is called now I glossed that as as 58 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:30.560 ape man. I use the time ape man because local 59 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.360 people who you know, some of whom claim to see 60 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:38.840 these things, and many more who know something about them, 61 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:42.960 tend to describe them as having a monkey like a 62 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:47.360 monkey like a period appearance, especially as regards the face. 63 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:53.000 Well that I know, apes on flurrees. Evolutionarily speaking, of course, 64 00:03:53.599 --> 00:04:00.120 apes preceded hominins and so so eight man seems you 65 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.879 know the best very much. I mean, it's not direct 66 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.120 translation of the Leo name, but it's very much in 67 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:09.719 the spirit of that of that name, so we're stuck 68 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:14.120 with stuck with ape man. Of course, I lived towards 69 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:20.399 the western end of Flores and there they are relevant 70 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:22.839 as well. That The main difference, I guess you could 71 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:26.800 say between the Leo eight Men that the Laiho and 72 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:33.000 the Abu Gogo of the Nagae region further west, is 73 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.639 that the Abu Gogo are supposed to be extinct, and 74 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:39.720 all local people you talk to say that they were, 75 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:44.240 you know, they ceased to be two hundred maybe three 76 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:47.680 hundred years ago. But there's no point looking for one now, 77 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:51.480 they say, because they're all all gone. 78 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:56.439 The Leo in the eastern part of Flores, I remember 79 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.279 in the previous book it was described as having an 80 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:03.600 abductive HeLEX, like a grasping big toe. Does that still 81 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:07.519 stand or because that would that would probably indicate something 82 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:09.879 different than Home of Threesience's I believe, right. 83 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.560 I would guess, so I do, you're right. I do 84 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:18.639 briefly mention in in in the the general book the 85 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:24.160 Images of the wild Man, but I don't remember any 86 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:28.959 such toe. Maybe maybe I use more Layman terms in 87 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.519 the book, or more likely I am as somebody else 88 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:38.519 is perhaps you know, given that description of something else. 89 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:40.920 Well here I have it right here in front of me, 90 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.439 because I was perusing the book earlier, and it's on 91 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.319 page sixty eight, this third paragraph. It says one man 92 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:50.639 characterized Leah's feet as like hands capable of grasping. 93 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.600 Oh, I see what you're getting at. Yes, thank you 94 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.519 for translating for me. The point is that I have 95 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.319 I have certainly heard that in that instance. Of course 96 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.160 I did say one man, just one man. This is 97 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:11.480 not a common, not a not a common, particularly common designation. 98 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:14.199 In fact, most people don't really you know, can't say 99 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:16.920 for sure anything. They can't say anything for sure about 100 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:23.279 the about the feet, Yeah, there there there is. I guess. 101 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:25.199 More generally you could say there is a notion that 102 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:30.639 their feet, like other parts of them, are more monkey 103 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:36.839 like than in physically physically modern uh, physically modern humans. 104 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:41.160 The work done on homofloresiensis so far seems to indicate 105 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:46.879 that homofluoresiensis has a very flexible foot, probably probably no march, 106 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:49.079 and probably a lot of flexibility in the mid tarsal 107 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.399 joint in that area. So I could see how a 108 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:55.759 brief observation of a even if you happen to notice 109 00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:58.279 the foot, you probably notice this a lot more mobile 110 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:00.319 than say a Homo sapiens. 111 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.360 Yes, I mean, I think you're right with regard to 112 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:10.759 the analysis analysis of Homo foresiences that I will say, 113 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:13.480 you know, among eye witness reports that there wasn't anything 114 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:18.160 that that you know, pointed specifically in that that direction. 115 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:22.480 But I do in the book, I do go into 116 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:28.000 some deeptail about what people told me about the feet, 117 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.600 and that they indicated the first of all, that they 118 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:40.879 walked in around the peculiar manner, something approaching what's called 119 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:48.040 the groucho walk, if you know how that goes. Yeah, 120 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:53.800 and that I mean reconstructions of homoiences point in that 121 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:57.839 direction as well. Also for resience's feet of course were 122 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:05.399 relatively relatively large, uh you know, given the short legs 123 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:10.319 and the overall small size of the of the body. 124 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.439 So yeah, there are quite a number of things like 125 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.079 that that that fit fit quite well. But as a 126 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:21.439 statement I'm saying that they have feet like monkeys or 127 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:27.480 feet just like hands. I didn't hear that very often, 128 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:32.120 and in my recollection I never heard it from an eyewitness, 129 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:34.720 but you can check in the book when it needed 130 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:35.200 to course. 131 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.399 Well, of course, of course I've already pre ordered it. Actually, 132 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:40.840 I cannot wait to get my eyes on it. So 133 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:45.000 I imagine a lot of our listeners are unaware because 134 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:46.960 you know, images of this of the wild Men in 135 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:49.480 Southeast Age is a very academic book in a lot 136 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.639 of ways, and and you know it takes a special 137 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:57.320 kind of person interested in bigfoot to read the academic stuff. 138 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:59.120 Most of the time, it's a little bit more accessible 139 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.600 to the public. So can you give our listeners a 140 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.000 little bit of background. I know most of your work 141 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:07.840 has been in cultural anthropology. I think it has on 142 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:09.960 the island of Flores but you've been to all the 143 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.080 islands in Indonesia, So tell us little bit about your 144 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:14.720 anthropological background, please. 145 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.120 Well, what you've just said is generally accurate. I decided 146 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:26.480 to I decided to study ath forulge and University way 147 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.000 back towards the end of the nineteen sixties, as a 148 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.519 matter of fact, so that puts a kind of a 149 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.799 date on me. And I was quite successful as an undergraduate, 150 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:40.080 and I got a place that was in Canada, by 151 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:45.879 the way, at Simon Fraser University and in British Columbia 152 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:50.799 and Sasquatch Territory. As a matter of fact. After that, 153 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:56.720 I got a place at Oxford University in England to 154 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:03.919 do graduate work, and I for various reasons which I'm 155 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:09.480 particularly interesting, I decided with my supervisor at the time 156 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:15.120 that I should prepare for graduate field work on the 157 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:20.679 island of Sumba. Sumba is very close to Flores, actually 158 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:28.039 quite close due south also in eastern Indonesia. While I 159 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:30.360 was on Flores, as a matter of fact, I did 160 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:35.679 hear stories about hairy homonoids, but these were quite different 161 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:42.720 from what I subsequently encountered on on on Flores itself. 162 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:47.320 And for one thing, the the Sumbanese characters were mostly 163 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:54.159 the topic of of myths. But anyway, to move along, 164 00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:00.440 I am yeah. So I finished my darktorate my PhD 165 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:07.039 in nineteen eighty and I got a position with the 166 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:11.120 British Academy at because I'm still in England at the time, 167 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:15.840 the British Academy with one of their institutes in as 168 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:19.399 it was in Southeast Asia, that was in Singapore, and 169 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:24.879 one of the requirements for me as deputy director of 170 00:11:25.240 --> 00:11:29.519 that institute was to start a new piece of field work. 171 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:32.360 Well I didn't, so I didn't go back to Somber, 172 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:36.480 but I didn't go very far away. For various reasons. 173 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:41.840 I've always been fascinated by Flores Flores Island and there 174 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:47.840 was one definite region part of that island, the one 175 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:53.879 called Nage, which you know, nobody published anything to speak 176 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:57.559 of about this area before, so I thought, right, you know, 177 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.000 this will be the place to go and fill in 178 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:07.799 some gaps. Well, it's very I arrived in Naga Country 179 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.720 in nineteen eighty four. That was my first you know, 180 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.759 full field season there, and it wasn't It wasn't long 181 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:21.559 before I got talking to my hosts, members of the 182 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.440 Naga Naga tribe some people call it or it's not 183 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:33.559 terribly accurate, And somehow the topic got on to you know, hormonoids, 184 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.120 creatures that that aren't human, but they look a lot 185 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:40.200 like them, and typically they're naked of course their area 186 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:42.919 and all that sort of thing. And that's when I 187 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.799 that's when I first heard about the bugogo. And yeah, no, 188 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:53.039 it certainly a bugg sounded rather more naturalistically described than 189 00:12:53.600 --> 00:13:00.559 creatures I'd heard about previously on Somber and elsewhere. I yeah, 190 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.960 I was going to say that at this time that 191 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:06.440 sort of topic was by no means the main focus 192 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:09.799 of my field research. In fact, as much as anything, 193 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:18.600 I was interested in mapping indigenous social organization and seeing 194 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.879 how that compared with what had been reported from elsewhere 195 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:29.600 in Eastern Indonesia. I was, however, also interested in the 196 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:37.399 indigenous religion, cosmology, all that sort of thing, which I mean, 197 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.679 when I first arrived, I was told whether ein'ight none 198 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:44.919 no more because in the specific region I was working in, 199 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:50.960 specific part of Nagay, just about everybody had become converted 200 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:55.039 to Catholicism, or you know, some twenty years or more 201 00:13:55.720 --> 00:14:00.960 previously in the nineteen sixties. I thought, you know, there 202 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.720 has to be some kind of memory at least of 203 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:10.360 local spiritual beings and how I'm supposed to deal with 204 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:15.399 them and all the rest. And indeed, as I pushed 205 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.960 the point a bit, more and more came out. And 206 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:23.759 this is kind of a digression on homonoids, but it 207 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:30.080 turned out that indeed the indigenous religion was still still 208 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:35.320 alive originally well and coexisting with Catholicism. 209 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.240 A lot of times the missionaries come in and they 210 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.559 take elements of the previous religion and kind of show 211 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:43.720 it to the people that are trying to convert, to 212 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:47.639 make the transition easier on them, I guess, or something. 213 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.440 I mean, I think they need to be a bit 214 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.759 careful there. I mean that they have to somehow get 215 00:14:53.799 --> 00:15:01.080 across the differences as well, and my missionaries themselves. There 216 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:08.480 are different opinions about the validity of that of that 217 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.960 of that approach, But I mean, one thing I found 218 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:15.960 out eventually in that context was that while there are 219 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:23.240 these various categories of spirits, spirits, forest spirits, and so 220 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:28.919 on in the Nagai region, according to local people, the 221 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:33.159 go go, well, we're not We're not one of these. 222 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:36.879 They were not They were not supernatural. They they you know, 223 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:41.080 they were visible, they reproduced, they could be killed, all 224 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:45.039 these sorts of things with which are natural creature can 225 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:50.080 can do. And and indeed, that same sort of distinction 226 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:56.679 I discovered among the that the Leo people much more 227 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:02.639 much more recently, and well I should mention Leo and 228 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:09.919 Nagae are somewhat related, have similar cultures, and their languages 229 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:15.320 are related as well, So that resemblance isn't isn't surprising? 230 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:17.559 So one that seems like one of the main differences 231 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.600 between the eastern and western populations of humans, the Nagae 232 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.639 and the Leo, was that the Naugae claimed that like, oh, yeah, 233 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:27.320 the Ebu Gogos, we killed them all off, We put 234 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.039 them in that cave, we burn them out. They're dead, 235 00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.360 they're gone, whereas on the other part of the island 236 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:34.559 the Leo people say that, no, no, they're still here. 237 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.240 They're walking around. We see them sometime. 238 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:42.440 Yeah, very rare. They're considered to be very rare creatures. 239 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.080 Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and 240 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.440 Bogo will be right back after these messages. 241 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.759 What's the most recent was an account that you deemed credible? 242 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.799 The most recent encounter, Well, I have a report from 243 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:11.319 twenty seventeen, mainly from a woman, a woman in her 244 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:18.039 forties I guess she is now, which it was very detailed. 245 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:24.119 She was supposed to have seen this being in twenty seventeen, 246 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:29.480 and in fact, when I spoke to her it was 247 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:38.119 just weeks after the incident took place. Her husband at 248 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.279 the time was at home or in a field hut 249 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.640 a garden hat taken care of some business while she 250 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.279 was on the other side of a field near a 251 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:57.400 forest forest stream from where this harmonoid emerged in the 252 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:04.160 late late afternoon. The way she described it was rather 253 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:09.839 different from most other most other descriptions, and for that 254 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.640 reason and one or two others, I didn't list it 255 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:16.640 in the book, as you know, the best kind of case, 256 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.799 even though even though it was, as I said, the 257 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:26.279 most the most recent. This being was quite short, about 258 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:32.720 sixty centibrators if you can translate down, and she described 259 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.480 it also. She said it wasn't particularly hairy, which is 260 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:41.279 not a problem, but she spoke of it as having 261 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:49.880 a sort of white, whitish whitish area on its on 262 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:54.119 its chest, which again is not typical these things I 263 00:18:54.240 --> 00:19:02.680 described as being dark skinned, much like local humans themselves. 264 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:08.680 And there are one or two other reports about something 265 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:13.279 white on the body, but this was most most definite 266 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.599 about this. There was also a disagreement between her and 267 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.519 her husband. She wanted to claim that she was the 268 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.480 only one who saw it, that her husband was too 269 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:27.519 scared to come out of the hat, which she was 270 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.839 quite a bold woman, were outgoing, certainly by Leo's standards, 271 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.839 and she well. He insisted that he had seen it 272 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.640 from the hat, although not nearly as closely and as 273 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:46.319 well as as she'd seen it. In the end, she 274 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:50.599 relented and said, oh, yes, well he did. He did 275 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.480 see it too, but I saw it better, and I 276 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.039 saw it first, and so on. But then in the 277 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.759 following year, twenty eighteen, they this cup. They claimed they'd 278 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.319 seen it again, which which started to make me wonder 279 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:09.720 a bit. But I didn't definitely definitely couldn't, didn't definitely 280 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:13.440 discount it. So that's the most recent but as I said, 281 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.640 not not the best example of a siting. 282 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:20.960 When did that one person find that the corpsure when 283 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:22.359 they claim they found a dead one? 284 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:27.240 Yeah, where there were two people who observed said they 285 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:34.440 observed corpses or carcasses if you prefer. It's a bit 286 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.839 philosophical of course as to whether it's some kind of 287 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:44.359 human or something else. But yeah, I both those reports 288 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:49.200 by two quite different individuals, are in my chapter seven, 289 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.519 where I discuss at length what I call three you know, 290 00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:03.559 particularly remarkable or compelling encounter. One of them was from 291 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:08.920 an elderly guy who I met back in twenty eleven. 292 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:13.039 That's when I first heard his story, and I was 293 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.599 able to interview him again in twenty fourteen and twenty 294 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.880 twenty fifteen. In twenty fifteen, I think he was getting 295 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:25.839 a bit past it, And indeed, according my news, he 296 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:35.000 died not long after that, in twenty sixteen. But all 297 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.240 the stories in that chapter, by the way, chapter seven 298 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:46.119 include more than one simultaneous eyewitness, which was another mark 299 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:50.680 in there, another mark in their favor anybody anyway, the 300 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.960 old man who I give him the name Voulu, he 301 00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:04.759 had been working on road and bridge construction. He wasn't Leo, 302 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.720 by the way, it's from a neighboring a neighboring area 303 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.839 called end Day. But anyway, being a member of a 304 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:18.200 work crew, they were traveling through well, they're traveling on 305 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.960 a stretch of road which is probably the highest point 306 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.480 on the main highway that that goes from one end 307 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:28.440 of Flores's Island to the other. In rather cloudy conditions, 308 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:32.440 as during the rainy season, they're going through through jungle. 309 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:39.079 They something right in front of the truck. Now Volo 310 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.480 himself was in the back of the truck standing up, 311 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.119 so he was looking over the cab. He reckons. He 312 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:49.599 got a better sight of this, of this creature than 313 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:56.160 did anybody else anyway, that the driver himself couldn't stop 314 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:00.400 in time. The road, by the way in Throat Florid's 315 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.440 the roads are you'll you'll you'll never find much more 316 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:08.279 than you know, maybe half a kilometer straight road going 317 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.799 through that part of the Leo territory, so very windy. 318 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:15.960 Turning a corner, this thing came down from a bank 319 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.519 on the left and the truck, the truck went one 320 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:27.640 went into it. So I was able to learn not 321 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:32.000 just about Volo and his experience, but about the other 322 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:36.480 people involved. Unfortunately, the driver and other members of the 323 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:40.920 crew had all passed on so far as anybody knew 324 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.920 by this time, and Volo couldn't. He knew the driver, 325 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:46.559 and he knew the driver's name and all the rest 326 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:50.839 of it. But these other workmates he he had, you know, 327 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.160 very little memory of those. I tried to trace people down, 328 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:58.000 but I was I was unsuccessful, So we kind of 329 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:05.960 stuck with Volo. But indeed he you know, he spoke 330 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.039 about the incident as it involved other people as well, 331 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:16.720 and it was it was quite credible. They the driver's 332 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:20.559 first inclination was that he should bury the creature. Now 333 00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:24.400 to understand this, you we'd have talked quite a bit 334 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:29.079 about local culture and their views of humans versus animals 335 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.079 and all the rest of it. So I won't go there. 336 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.559 So that's all in the book. But anyway, he couldn't 337 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.119 bury it because well mainly because they were due to 338 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.000 arrive in there up in the mountains at this time. 339 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.079 They were due to arrive before nightfall in the coastal 340 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:54.039 town of Endy, So they decided. The driver decided to 341 00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:00.200 continue on and on the following day when he was 342 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.240 due to come back that way to take care of 343 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.519 the body. Then in the meantime he wrapped it in 344 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.319 an old an old shirt. Now all this took place, 345 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.319 as I think I said, in the early nineteen seventies, 346 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:19.799 so we're going back aways now, you know, like about 347 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:24.880 we're talking about fifty fifty years. But I mean, the 348 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:30.559 story was compelling in various respects. For one thing, the 349 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:35.680 main eye witness, my main eyewitness, Volo was as I said, 350 00:25:35.720 --> 00:25:38.759 from the India region, and he'd never heard of a 351 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:46.759 lijo before. He wasn't familiar with the creature. But the driver, 352 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:50.720 who was a leoman, said straight away, this is a liore. 353 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:55.839 And apparently other members of the crew agreed with him, 354 00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:01.160 although they apparently you know, what is familiar with thaihoa 355 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:08.720 and all the all the law surrounding these creatures, as 356 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:14.319 was as was the driver. Yeah, you know, I questioned 357 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:19.160 this guy over well, doing three different field seasons, and 358 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.799 what I was getting it wasn't always the same, but 359 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:26.799 by no means, but it was, you know, it sounded 360 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:30.319 to all intense purposes like one of these creatures in 361 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:37.680 terms of size, facial appearance, and ipial bipedality. 362 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.559 By the way, what is the general description of these 363 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.079 Is there a consensus? What is the general consensus of 364 00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:46.400 a size and all that sort of stuff of this 365 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.599 particular flavor that the. 366 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.960 Yeah, I mean, they very somewhat as one should expect, 367 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.160 especially between eyewitnesses and non eyewitnesses, although there's not such 368 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:03.200 a distinction between those two groups two you know, calls 369 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:09.440 calls calls a lum they are well might briefly say 370 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:14.480 they look very much like Homo florisiensas, and that there 371 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:20.240 is in chapter ten, I uh, I cite Mike morewood On, 372 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:25.200 Australian member of the discovery team of Homo flerusiensis, who 373 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.920 who said of the Go Go as a matter of fact, 374 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.400 which he read about in in a book of mine, 375 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:40.039 and he said, talking about the said these fit florisiensas 376 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:45.799 to a T. Anyway, I I follow up that that 377 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:51.799 quotation the remark that actually what fits thorisiences to a 378 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.440 T is not the but these, if anything, even smaller 379 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:57.599 they lie. 380 00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.839 Ore and how big are they? How big are these 381 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:00.680 supposed to be? 382 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:05.880 You know, most estimates go from I mean the tallest 383 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.799 would be and I have a qualification on that moment, 384 00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.240 in terms of Irish witness sightings, the tallest would be 385 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:17.759 about one point one may be getting on for one 386 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:21.559 point two meters, so we're talking about somewhere between three 387 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:22.359 and four feet. 388 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:22.759 There. 389 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:27.559 A lot of people, though, talk about them as being smaller. 390 00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.839 A lot of people just say a meter, you know, 391 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:35.759 which is becoming a kind of conventional way of describing 392 00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:40.519 their height. But you know, going down you get eighty centimeters, 393 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.079 fifty centimeters, sixty centimeters. The average, of course is much 394 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:48.960 higher than that is it's around it, it's around a meter. 395 00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.160 These people are pretty clever, even people aren't gone to school, 396 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.279 pretty clever with the metric system, by the way, and 397 00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.759 I've tested them, and yeah, you know, I mean they're 398 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:01.599 not a is accurate by any means, and of course 399 00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:08.240 we're dealing with memory as well, so but but anyway 400 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:10.839 that that would be, you know, I'm confident that we'd 401 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.160