WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.720 You had to ask. 2 00:00:01.919 --> 00:00:06.120 Of course I had to ask. I mean, that's obvious, right, I. 3 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.000 Didn't know you were a big tricky Oh god, yes, oh. 4 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:14.320 Yeah, oh yeah. Ask not what your country can do 5 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.960 for you, ask what you can do for your country. 6 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:22.039 It's the Ricochet Podcast. I'm James Lileox, Charles C. W. 7 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:24.480 Cook is here, Stephen Hayward is here, and we talked 8 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:28.160 to former Attorney General Bill Barr about just about everything. 9 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:30.079 So let's have ourselves a podcast. 10 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:36.759 Let me say once again to Donald Trump and Christy 11 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:40.920 no end this occupation. Let's be very very clear. This 12 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:44.920 long ago stopped being a matter of immigration enforcement. Instead, 13 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:48.000 it's a campaign of organized brutality against the people of 14 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.280 Minnesota by our own federal government. 15 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:53.640 This domestic act of terrorism to use your vehicle to 16 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:56.079 try to kill law enforcement officers is going to stop, 17 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.679 and I'm asking the Department of Justice to prosecute it 18 00:00:58.679 --> 00:00:59.759 as domestic terrorism. 19 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.320 Welcome everybody, It's the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred and 20 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.000 seventy two. Why don't you join us at ricochet dot com. 21 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.439 Why don't you you could be part of the most 22 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:11.239 stimulating conversations and community on the web. I'm James Lelax 23 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.480 in Minneapolis, peaceful saying, oh so ordinary, Mayberry RFD, Minneapolis, Minnesota. 24 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:19.400 And I'm joined, of course by Charles C. W. Cook 25 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:21.400 and Stephen Hayward, and we're going to go right to 26 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:25.439 our guest. Bill Barr an American attorney, author of one 27 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:28.519 damn thing after another. He served as the United States 28 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:32.120 Attorney General twice, once under George HW. Bush and again 29 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:35.079 under Donald Trump for the president's first term. Before heading 30 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:38.239 to the DOJ, Barr worked in the Office of Legal Counsel, 31 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:40.400 where he penned an opinion that is said to have 32 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:45.799 formed the legal justification for arresting Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega 33 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:50.000 and thirty six years later the same treatment for Nicholas Maduro. 34 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.159 Welcome, thank you, great to be here. 35 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:56.280 Well, extraordinary rendition. That's the that's the term that's on 36 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:01.640 everybody's everybody's lips these days. The special Forces operation that 37 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:04.560 brings it to fruition. I guess the question remains. I 38 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.560 guess some would say, looking at this, hey, what gives 39 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:09.360 us the right to decide that this is the thing 40 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:09.759 to do. 41 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.479 Well both our national security and our law enforcement system. 42 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:20.360 The opinions you discussed really grew out of a situation 43 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:23.199 that had emerged at the end of the Cold War. 44 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:27.680 When I was in the Department of Justice under President 45 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:32.280 George H. W. Bush, a lot of conflict had moved 46 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.599 to what we call the gray zone. It involved things 47 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:41.879 like transnational criminal organizations, drug organizations, cartels, and terrorist organizations emerging. 48 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:44.599 And the question is, how could we deal with these, 49 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:50.520 especially when they were getting safe haven in countries or 50 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.439 either no man's land, and although they were technically we 51 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:57.159 didn't sovereign territory of a country, no one was doing 52 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.800 anything about it. It was sort of no man's land 53 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:03.680 or countries that were absolutely complicit in the activity they 54 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.680 themselves were criminal organizations or terrorists, favored the terrorists in 55 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.759 supporting them. And how does the United States defend themselves 56 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:14.240 in that kind of situation and deal with it? And 57 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:16.520 one of the things I'm just going to give you 58 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.479 the genesis of that opinion. One of the things we 59 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.599 dealt with was that under the Jimmy Carter administration, they 60 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:27.360 had issued an opinion saying that if something violates customary 61 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:32.680 international law, then it's not even legal under US law, 62 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.400 and the United States doesn't have the power to depart 63 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.039 from it, and that was simply wrong as a matter 64 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.520 of constitutional law and international law, which is customary a 65 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:47.039 norm that countries follow or don't follow. And so wrote 66 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:53.039 opinion that said that under customary international law, if you 67 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.840 go in and carry out your law enforcement activities within 68 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.599 another country without their permission, that violates customary international law. 69 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.479 But it's not a violation of US law, and the 70 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.159 US can do that. The US can do that and 71 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.479 can bring the person back for trial. So that question 72 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.639 was can we do it? Is it lawful under US law? 73 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.480 There's another question, which is, okay, does it violate customary 74 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:22.480 international law? And the answer is normally, normally yes, it 75 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:28.279 does violate customary international law. But in a situation. There's 76 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.439 sort of two responses to that. One is that in 77 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.639 a situation, it's called the enabling, not able or unwilling doctrine, 78 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:40.079 which is, if a sovereign country allows its territory to 79 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.399 be used for anti American activity, things that are imposing 80 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:48.959 not just anti American politically, but predatory action directed against 81 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.680 the United States, hurting the American people, hurting our vital interests, 82 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.279 then they have to stop it. Sovereignty is not a 83 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:58.920 shield for that kind of activity. They have the corollary 84 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.120 responsibility to stop it, and if they don't stop it, 85 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:04.959 the country that's being preyed upon can go in and 86 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:09.639 stop it. And we reasserted that, and under international law 87 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:11.879 that does give us the right to go in and 88 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:17.439 deal with terrorist organizations or drug trafficking cartels if another 89 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:23.600 country is part of the problem. So the other aspect 90 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:28.160 of it is that something that like that raises our 91 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.600 defense powers, and you know, we can go in and 92 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:34.360 use our defense powers to protect the vital interests of 93 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:40.560 the United States. And remember norms. Norms vary and change 94 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.519 over time because countries either follow them or don't follow them, 95 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.319 and under certain circumstances they say, you know, this norm 96 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.879 is not working and we're going to change it. That's 97 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.399 how the twenty mile limit changed, or the three mile 98 00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:56.160 limit changed, and then it became two hundred miles. And 99 00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.199 that happened because some states said we're not going to 100 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:01.920 follow three miles because it doesn't adequately address the circumstance. 101 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:06.839 So countries do have the freedom to respond to changing 102 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.319 circumstances and say this is the practice that we think 103 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.759 is necessary to protect our vital interests. I know that's 104 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.079 a long winded answer, but it's actually sort of a 105 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:18.639 complicated legal issue, and I wanted to lay out its 106 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:20.160 different facets. 107 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:21.839 And there's a lot there. And before it toss this 108 00:06:21.879 --> 00:06:23.920 to the other smart guys, just one quick question. When 109 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:26.279 you talk about international law, a lot of people say, yeah, well, 110 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:29.360 how many divisions does Brussel have? What specifically are we 111 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.800 talking about when we say international law? What complex that 112 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:33.920 we sign up for it? And what does the enforcement 113 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:38.519 mechanism be for them? What are the penalties for violating them? 114 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.680 Other than shrugging the shoulders and saying, well, I guess 115 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:42.160 the norms they be a shift in. 116 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.399 Yeah, that is a super question, and it hits right 117 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.920 at the weakness of all these critiques based on international law. 118 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.959 There are two kinds of international law, roughly speaking, really three, 119 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.360 but let me one is customary there's no agreement between 120 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.240 the countries. A second is agreement that don't become part 121 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.480 of US law. They're not so called executed into US law. 122 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.079 Usually that requires a passing a statute that then has 123 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.800 binding effect. Indiana, like, if we're going to this is 124 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.560 gonna be our fishing zone, this is going to be 125 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:14.959 your fishing zone. You pass a Statute and say American 126 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:16.879 fishermen have to stay on this side of the line, 127 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.079 then it's part of US law. If it doesn't become 128 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:22.720 part of US law, it's not executed into the US law, 129 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:27.600 then it's an agreement. And uh, it's not something that 130 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:30.519 that has binding legal effect within the United States. It's 131 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:35.040 something addressed to the sovereign of the United States and 132 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.759 essentially the conscience and prudent judgment. It's like saying, Okay, 133 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:41.240 I'm not going to follow it. I understand their costs. 134 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.959 I'll bear the cost, live with it, Okay. Now. The 135 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:49.680 other kind are treaties that you know that are agreed 136 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:55.519 to the true and and that that are executed, and 137 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:57.439 then there's those that are not going to execute it. 138 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:01.839 The treaty in question that everyone's sites is the UN Charter, 139 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:08.000 and the un Charter has two parts to it. Roughly, 140 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.800 one is to set up an enforcement mechanism, which was 141 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:15.160 supposed to be the Security Council, and then the other 142 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:17.759 is to say, because we have the Security Council that's 143 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.079 going to come in and make things right wherever there's 144 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:25.720 something wrong, you shouldn't use force. And then there's language 145 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:27.720 and it's saying the only you know that this does 146 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:31.040 not preclude the use of force against another sovereign state 147 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:37.440 if you're under attack, armed attack. And the basic debate 148 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.360 that goes on in international laws, does that mean that 149 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:43.559 the only time you can use force is literally when 150 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.000 someone has you know, guns and is landing on your beach. 151 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.120 And there are restrictionists, Needless to say, most of the 152 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:53.240 professoria that says yes, that's the only time US doesn't 153 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:55.639 follow that. We say we can use force to protect 154 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:59.000 our vital interests, to defend ourselves. It doesn't have to 155 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.120 be you know, if someone conducting cyber attacks, if they're 156 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.559 launching poison into the United States, they're drugs, that's an 157 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.799 attack on US sovereignty. We can use force to defend it. So, 158 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:13.320 you know, that is the international law issue. But what 159 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.639 makes a lot of it crazy is the premise of 160 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:19.039 restrictions on the use of force were based on that 161 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:21.080 there was some authority out there that would come in 162 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:25.039 and protect you and there that has not happened. It 163 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.159 doesn't work. So it's a little bit like saying, hey, 164 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.320 we're going to establish a police force and you can 165 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.120 give up your guns. In fact, not just give them 166 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:35.840 up we're going to take your guns because you don't 167 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.559 need them anymore because we have a police force. And 168 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.320 then you never set up a police force. That's the 169 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.000 world we're in and so called international law. 170 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:47.039 Hi, the child's cook kit. 171 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:48.519 I wonder. 172 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:54.159 Why, in your view is the president allowed to take 173 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:59.840 this step without congress. Obviously, if another country came in 174 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.519 took away our president, we would regard that as an 175 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.360 active war. We wouldn't say it was kinetic action or 176 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:11.039 another euphemism. Why then, does the Congress not have to 177 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:14.519 at least pass an authorization for the use of military 178 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:17.039 force to justify this action that was just taken. 179 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.200 Well, because the framers, you know, we were right at 180 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.240 the time they wrote the Constitution in the eighteenth century, 181 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.120 the idea of declaring war had a very special meaning. 182 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:32.039 It was a juridical concept, and when a formal state 183 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:36.480 of war was declared, it had it had all kinds 184 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:41.440 of consequences. For example, under in those days, that obliged 185 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.919 every citizen of your country that has declared war to 186 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:49.399 actually treat members of the other society as enemies, and 187 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.559 you were free to go and you know, seize their 188 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:55.240 property and so forth. So it had it was a 189 00:10:55.279 --> 00:11:01.399 formal state in the eighteenth century. Now, the Framers quite 190 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:06.120 realized that wars can be fought, that is, military conflicts, 191 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:09.480 armed conflicts can take place that are not declared wars, 192 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.600 and that frequently nations find themselves embroiled in that. So 193 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:16.360 we fought the quasi war with France. We sent a 194 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:21.200 squadron of frigates to actually overthrow the government of the 195 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:26.240 Barbary Pirates and substitute another pasha. That was what they 196 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.679 were trying to do there when they storm, you know, 197 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.840 when they were on the shores of Tripoli. And so 198 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.279 ever since the founding of the Republic, there have been 199 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:38.759 many instances where we have had military conflict without direct 200 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:43.159 declarations of war, and military conflict without Congress ever approving 201 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:47.679 scores of them. And I think what has happened historically 202 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.919 is that the executive has running room, and I think 203 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.120 the Framers would have agreed has running room to respond 204 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:57.600 to particular threats without going to Congress first and getting 205 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:03.120 permission to do that. It's largely a political question uh 206 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:05.759 to be ironed out between the you know, the butting 207 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:08.840 of heads between the branches of government as to where 208 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.320 that line is. And I think that that's a dynamic 209 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:15.320 political process that the Framers, the Framers conceived of, and 210 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.559 that Congress holds a lot of cards, they hold the money. 211 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.399 Uh and and so uh, I think in practice what 212 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.679 it has boiled down to is that if it is 213 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.159 reacting to a particular threat that does not involve, you know, 214 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:35.200 exploding into a major war, Uh, then the executive has 215 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.279 as much latitude as as he can without going to 216 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:40.519 Congress and getting them you know, they could they have 217 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:42.240 levers to pull if they don't like it. 218 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.360 Uh. 219 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.679 Whereas you know, starting in cold blood with a you know, 220 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:52.279 major attack that could result in a serious military conflict 221 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:56.080 that embroilers in a serious military conflict. Uh, you know 222 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.600 in terms of its magnitude that uh, you know, that's 223 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.000 the kind the thing that they would expect Congress to 224 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:07.200 do ahead of time. So, you know, an interesting area 225 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.480 that sort of was on the border here, some would think, 226 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:12.840 was the Gulf War, where we had Congress had allowed 227 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.159 us to build up six hundred thousand troops right along 228 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.879 the border there, and the question was do we need 229 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.240 congressional permission to actually cross the border and liberate Kuwait 230 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.240 from the Iraqi army? And I actually didn't think we did, 231 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:30.720 even though that was a major military conflict with Iraq. 232 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:35.360 But we decided, you know, it was again a political judgment, 233 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.480 which is, we think we can get the permission, let's 234 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.200 go up and get the permission, because that's a better 235 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.480 way to take, you know, to move forward with the country. 236 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.240 And that's how we did it there. 237 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:51.000 So General Barr at Steve Hayward out in California, I 238 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.000 want to go back to one follow up question about 239 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:59.279 the Panama business from thirty seven years ago. Now, Wow, 240 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:04.000 I'm getting old now. I don't remember now that. I mean, 241 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.559 I know there was the usual fuss from the radical 242 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:10.840 left complaining about American intervention in Latin American imperialism and 243 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.080 all the rest of that. I don't remember there being 244 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:18.120 a significant fuss from the opposition party in Congress on 245 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:19.879 Capitol Hill. And maybe I just don't remember and I 246 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.039 missed it, whereas today there's a lot of fuss. And 247 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:25.200 I'm wondering, is that just because Trump is such a 248 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.759 polarizing figure and there's this reflex to oppose anything Trump does, 249 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:32.720 or you don't have the politics of this changed since then, 250 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.519 or or is there some important difference between them and 251 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:36.399 now I don't see one. 252 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:40.159 I think the defining characteristic of the last three to 253 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:44.039 four decades, the thing that is driving much of what 254 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:46.879 happens in the United States and our politics, and in fact, 255 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:49.679 in my view, ultimately the reason there is Trump today 256 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.919 is the radical move of the Democratic Party to the 257 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.159 left and from a party that that was sort of 258 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.080 traditional liberals and still you know, shared a lot of 259 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:06.879 the values with their political opponents, and above all loved 260 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.679 America and put America, try America first, and had some 261 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:15.039 different ideas, but still there was a deep love for 262 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.559 this country and trying to do what's right for America. 263 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.279 And that's not where progressives are. Yeah, and so I 264 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:23.960 think that is the basic difference. Yeah. 265 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.399 I'm going to take up with James separately later about 266 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.799 how different Minnesota might look today if Hubert Humphrey and 267 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.399 Walter Mondale were still with us since changing there. Right, 268 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:37.480 that's a serious question. Let me shift gears to Greenland. 269 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:39.559 I don't know if you have an opinion about Greenland. 270 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.639 I mean, it's mostly thought of as a foreign policy 271 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.200 defense question, I suppose, But do you have either a 272 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.000 a general opinion or a specific legal opinion about what 273 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:54.080 is going on with Trump's ambitions to acquire Greenland. 274 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.919 Well, you know, I am actually I do not think 275 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:02.840 we should invade Greenland and start an internal conflict within NATO. 276 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.279 I believe he's right in wanting to. I mean, I 277 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:10.559 think it would actually be a good idea to have 278 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.480 America control Greenland and control it a sovereign territory, preferably. 279 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.440 And I do believe it's important to the defense of 280 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.919 the West, not just you know, naval things in submarines, 281 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:28.120 but space and so forth, And it's critical, and we 282 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.320 know that Chinese and Russians are very focused on that, 283 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.720 and so I am sympathetic with it. I think I 284 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.639 hope it can be worked out without a military conflict, 285 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.639 and I expect it will be. I think the important 286 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:48.480 thing is that the United States has essentially plenary authority 287 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.960 to do what it needs to do to defend Greenland 288 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.960 and the West. And second, I think it's important that 289 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:00.279 the United States be able to control where those where 290 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.720 the minerals and the important resources of Greenland go, that 291 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.240 they go to the of our allies in the West, 292 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:07.799 not to our enemies. 293 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:08.279 Yeah. 294 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.279 Well, opposing an invasion places you with ninety five percent 295 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.200 of Americans according to polls and including ninety two percent 296 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:18.839 of Republicans, So not exactly a bold or outrageous place 297 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:23.000 to be. Let me ask you a question about Trump 298 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:27.200 Two's I'm calling this non consecutive second term. And you 299 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.440 know your book was called one damn Thing after another. 300 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:32.039 I have to confess I haven't read it. And wondering 301 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.279 if you got that from the old Edna Saint Vincent 302 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.079 Malay line that history is not one damn thing. No, 303 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:39.880 it's not one damn thing after another. It's the same 304 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.440 damn thing over and over again. 305 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.559 She said, yeah, where I got it from is when 306 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.720 Reagan won he asked William Smith to be his attorney general. 307 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.480 And William French Smith wanted to do his homework, and 308 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.279 he went to visit Ed Levy, who had been Attorney 309 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.519 General under Gerald Ford. And as you know, Levy was 310 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.599 an academician. He had been the head of the University 311 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:06.920 of Chicago Law School and then president of the university. 312 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:11.720 He wore tweety, you know, the epitome of a professor. Professor, 313 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.279 and William French Smith said, you know, hey, could you 314 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.920 could you tell me about the the position of attorney general, 315 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.039 what it is to serve the Attorney General. He was 316 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.240 expecting a discourse about the rule of law and all 317 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.759 the constitution and so forth. And Levy puffed on his 318 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.279 pipe and looked at him and said, it's one damn 319 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:33.240 thing after another. 320 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.839 I say, right, right, yeah, right right, I see. 321 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:39.759 Yeah, William Prince Smith lived. 322 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.599 General Smith lived down the street from my parents where 323 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:44.279 I was growing up. 324 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.920 But so I didn't know him. 325 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.640 But well, the reason I bring this up, and you know, 326 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.039 you may, you know, not wish to answer it too fully, 327 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.000 but so Trump one, I'll put it this way. You know, 328 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:58.519 you suit it up again. You had a number of 329 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.279 people appointed to cabinet position who I mean, there were 330 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:03.680 a few of the so that we say, idiosyncratic people 331 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.640 around Trump in the first administration, but you also had 332 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:12.039 conventional Republicans you might expect in any Republican administration. You know, 333 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.720 what's his name from Exxon for Secretary of State and 334 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:18.519 so forth. This administration, Well, put it this way. Just 335 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.680 give you one example. The contrast between alex Asar a 336 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.440 good friend of mine, and RFK Junior and Health and 337 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:26.559 Human Services is about as night and day as you 338 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.440 can possibly get. There don't seem to be any conventional 339 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.839 Republicans in the cabinet, with one or two exceptions like 340 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.519 Secretary of State Rubio. And you know, it's a lot 341 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.119 more a loyalist, which I understand a reason for that, 342 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.160 but also non conventional, non belt way or is the 343 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.119 mag of people will put it, non swampy people, right? 344 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:49.759 What do you make of all that? Is this deliberate 345 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:55.759 conscious wise? How do you evaluate this difference between Trump 346 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:56.519 one and Trump two? 347 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.359 Well, I would say, you know, it's Trump making an 348 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:04.160 adjustment based on what he felt with the dynamics of 349 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.680 the first administration, starting with Russia Gate. You know, I 350 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:10.960 think history would have been a lot different had the 351 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:13.880 Democrats not not I won't say democrats, I would say, 352 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.119 you know, those involved in that and the progressive way 353 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:21.079 of the Democratic Party and the media plate especially tried 354 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:25.359 to orchestrate was effectively a coup. And I think history 355 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.240 would have been different had he not met that as 356 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:29.440 soon as he walked into the Oval office. And I 357 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:32.400 think the other thing is I felt I think he 358 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.960 felt that, you know, one of the problems was the 359 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:39.200 entrenched deep state and the perfidy of the many in 360 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:44.559 the who worked in the senior ranks of the career people. 361 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:50.319 He felt that sabotaged his administration, and I think he 362 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.480 felt that, and I think he believed that you have 363 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.000 to fight fire with fire, and that the only way 364 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.160 to break out of this trajectory the country was on 365 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.160 was the fight fire with fire and really take on 366 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:06.720 the progressives, you know, much more aggressively than our normal 367 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:14.160 political punk Kilio would permit. And so he's off on 368 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.839 that course, and he may prove to be right as 369 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.880 a great disruptor and someone who achieves things. My own 370 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.759 concern which I don't like fighting fire with fire, I 371 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.640 think obviously he's right at the other side has played 372 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.839 dirty and Republicans tend to play by the Marcus of 373 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.680 Queensberry's rules. But I'm not sure the answer to that 374 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.559 is to descend to their level. I'm concerned about that 375 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.039 and what it does to our institutions over time. And 376 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.640 the other thing is that I'm you know, I do 377 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:55.960 get worried that that that style may lead to unnecessary 378 00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:59.039 blowback and backlash that makes it harder to achieve our 379 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.039 harder than necessarily achieve our agenda. But I do understand 380 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.279 his frustration, and I think he is accomplishing things that 381 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:12.279 require bold leadership and aggressive leadership, and so I still 382 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.440 feel that I am much or happy that he's in 383 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.200 charge of things. Alternative. 384 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:25.240 I have a question about the Insurrection Act. I think 385 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.960 Trump may not end up needing it, as he's indicated, 386 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:33.160 because he can send troops in to defend federal assets 387 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.440 without the Insurrection Act. Obviously, there are various parts of 388 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.519 the Insurrection Act, some of them seem easier to meet 389 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.559 than others. What I want to know is what would 390 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:47.160 constitute as an insurrection, not as a blocking of federal 391 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.079 law making it difficult for the federal government to execute 392 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.559 the law, which is part of it, but what would 393 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:57.240 constitute an actual insurrection as imagined by those who wrote 394 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:58.480 that law in eighteen oh seven. 395 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.160 So I handled the last the last times it was 396 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.519 ever used, you know, I it was involved in sort 397 00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:09.000 of orchestrating it. One was I was at the under 398 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.440 Bush and it was the breakdown of law and order 399 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.480 in Saint Croix, and then after that ninety two in 400 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:18.119 La Those are the last times it was actually invoked. 401 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.400