WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.120 Essentially either the SEC refused to acknowledge them, told them 2 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.519 to withdraw, basically said this isn't happening, which isn't all 3 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:08.359 that surprising. I mean, if you look at some little 4 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.720 lawsuits out there against coinbase, Kracken, you name it, they 5 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:15.679 basically flat out calls allonta security and say they're not 6 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:16.679 going to mess with that thing. 7 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:24.399 This content is brought to you by bitco, which is 8 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.719 one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry. 9 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:31.280 Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as 10 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:36.479 Pantera Capital, Bitstamp, and bitcoin Ira. Nike also selected Bitgo 11 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:40.600 to power its wallets for its NFTs, and bitco has 12 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:44.280 many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self 13 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:49.200 managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions trust bitco 14 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.439 with its top level security and incredible services such as 15 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:56.200 being able to deploy your capital while it's in custody, 16 00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:00.359 which includes lending, borrowing, trading, staking, DeFi access and more. 17 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.079 If you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit 18 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:06.000 bitgo dot com link in a description. Welcome to the 19 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.879 Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and with 20 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:13.079 me is James Seyferd, who's an ETF research analyst at Bloomberg. James, 21 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:13.719 great to see you. 22 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.599 Yeah, happy to be back, Tony. It's been a while well. 23 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:18.680 James has been good though. 24 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:21.200 Yeah, the summer has been good, although I wish we 25 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.000 were talking in better terms. As far as the market, 26 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:27.040 it's kind of bloody right now. What are you seeing 27 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:28.719 on your end? What are you hearing from people? Do 28 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.840 you think this is just the normal seasonal uh, you 29 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:34.239 know set up where they say September is usually not great, 30 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:35.920 but in Q four starts to do well. 31 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.040 Yeah, I mean it's we're just coming now out of 32 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:42.079 the summer, right And I feel like if you look 33 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:45.239 at trading volumes on anything it's been, it's pretty standard 34 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:46.799 for them to go down in that time of year. 35 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:50.719 There's less things happening, and I guess that's translated over 36 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:55.359 into crypto. So yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised by 37 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:57.159 any of this. I mean, if you if you look 38 00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.640 at anything, I mean it's it's Honestly, I said this 39 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:01.920 on Twitter, which like some people jump down my throw 40 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:03.879 for but it kind of reminds me of the way 41 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.640 things were trading in twenty twenty before COVID and then 42 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.159 even right after, like it just kept hitting like that, 43 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:13.680 you know, right around that eleven twelve K mark down 44 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:16.719 to seven and so on, and like that that happened 45 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:18.919 for like eighteen months straight, it felt like, and that's 46 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:20.879 what it feels like this to me kind of I 47 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:22.680 know it hasn't been quite that long yet, but it 48 00:02:22.800 --> 00:02:25.039 just that same range kind of feel similar. It's like 49 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.560 that fifty fifty five to like near seventy just keeps happening, 50 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:31.879 and it's like we're just keep hitting sixty and fifty 51 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:33.680 eight over and over and over again. And it just 52 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:35.879 feels like how it felt to me when I kept hitting, 53 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:40.000 like staying right around ten k. It just feels similar. 54 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:43.400 And obviously, like when you're thinking about this, like I 55 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.280 never like to look to the historical price action for 56 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.840 what's actually going on. It's just the vibes feel very 57 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.280 similar to me. People were very down and out on 58 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:57.759 the prospects for the market in general, specifically bitcoin, and yeah, 59 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.080 people were still building, so I guess we'll see what 60 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:04.039 happens in the coming months, but yeah, I think we're 61 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.840 just kind of in this sideways choppy market right now 62 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:08.639 and time will tell what happens next. 63 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:11.520 I know the FED rate cuts are around the corner, 64 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.240 and that could be causing some anxiety as well, in 65 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.759 addition to the summer lull. Right, every they say sell 66 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.280 and may go and go away, right, and then people 67 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.560 come back into the markets come late September. So do 68 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.439 you think the FED ray cuts is kind of adding 69 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:28.360 some volatility here waiting to see what the job numbers 70 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.120 may look like, and then maybe markets will then have 71 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.280 confidence to you know, keep going. 72 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.639 Yeah, I mean that's my personal view, right, So I 73 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:41.520 just think one, a lot of the economic data is softening, 74 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.680 pointing towards cuts are likely to happen, right, So I 75 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:48.759 think we're going to see fifty BIPs most likely in September. 76 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.919 But I'm not a rage strategy or very trateg just 77 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:53.479 says at least twenty five, possibly fifty, which is roughly 78 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:55.719 what the market is pricing. Right. So we're priced now 79 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:58.919 for one hundred basis points or one percent cut before 80 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:00.360 the end of the year, and then another or one 81 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.560 percent cut before the end of twenty twenty five. That's 82 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:06.719 currently what markets are pricing. But you said sell a man, 83 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.080 go away, and ironically that probably would have been pretty 84 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:11.039 good for crypto, but not for socks socks off. It's 85 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.960 done I done pretty well. So it's not all risk 86 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.839 assets that are that are fitting that this year. 87 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.959 Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about ETFs. How have 88 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:24.240 the big one in ether ETFs have been reacting to 89 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:28.160 this type of environment. We've seen some outflows, although some 90 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.480 there was some inflows at certain points, so it's kind 91 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:32.920 of been up and down a bit. 92 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:37.319 Yeah. I mean, if you look at the Bitcoin ETFs, 93 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.639 i'd say it's it's been pretty damn good. I mean, 94 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:44.680 their net inflows since they launched is over seventeen billion. 95 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:46.480 I mean, no matter how you slice it, that's with 96 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.720 nineteen billion coming out of gray scales GBTC. Yeah, things 97 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.160 have been somewhat slow recently, but it hasn't been that bad. 98 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:56.600 There's kind of been this trickle that comes in and 99 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.399 then there's spurts of outflows and then there's another level 100 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:01.800 of inflows come in and they more than cover the 101 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:04.360 outflows that we just saw. And that's typically the way 102 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.000 that we see categories grow in the ETF world. Right 103 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:08.800 like they're going to go up and down with prices 104 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:11.040 and money will come in and out. But theoretically, a 105 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:13.480 real healthy market, you're going to see those asset levels 106 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.279 and those flows over the long term tend to go up, 107 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.839 and that's what we're seeing. We're not seeing that with ethereum. 108 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.120 So the Ethereum ETFs launched in July and they have 109 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:26.279 had negative let me get you the exact number. They've 110 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:28.879 had negative, like almost five hundred million dollars in olflows. 111 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:32.240 Actually over five hundred million dollars in outflows. So with 112 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.959 the bitcoin ETFs we had, we called them the newborn nine, 113 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.279 these other spot ETFs besides GPTC that had enough demand 114 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.680 to overwhelm the outflows from the unlocking of the GBTC shares, 115 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.839 the gray scale GBTC shares. We are not seeing these 116 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:50.800 other new eight ETFs or seven ETFs from the Ethereum 117 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.519 side of things to overwhelm the unlock and selling of 118 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.800 shares of ETH. So we've seen net alflow since launched. 119 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.360 So we were relatively bare. So our our view was 120 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.759 like fifteen twenty percent was what we thought was going 121 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:06.639 to happen. Twenty percent was my number. Al chun Is, 122 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:08.879 my boss, thought fifteen percent of the flows that bitcoin 123 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.079 ETFs saw, we thought theorem metos would see over the 124 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.120 first six to twelve months. I think I probably said 125 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:18.560 that on here Man I was there are nowhere near that. 126 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.519 So there's there's a few things we just talked about. Summerduldrums, right, 127 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:24.000 sell them a go away. That's definitely been the case 128 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:26.839 for Crypto. They launched into a very quiet, sideways shop 129 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:28.759 b market. There's just not a lot of interest in them. 130 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.079 But there's a lot of other things that go on here. 131 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.319 Like Bitcoin is kind of like if you're an advisor, 132 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:36.720 like bitcoin, digital store value, those things they just like 133 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:39.480 they make sense. They're very easy to sell, and if 134 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:41.319 you want to diversify it with like we call it 135 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.879 hot sauce in your portfolio, if you're already putting like 136 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:45.759 two percent of your client's money into bitcoin, do you 137 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.800 need to diversify it with another digital asset. Maybe not. 138 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.360 So it's basically bitcoin first and then these other things 139 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.759 kind of need to fill out their own narrative. I've 140 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.040 seen like these issuers and these trad five people that 141 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.040 are trying to sell these ethereym metfs and ethereum in 142 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.560 general are working on different things. But like so I 143 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.120 could say Matt Hogan for bitwise for example, likes to say, 144 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.360 like ethereum, you should be owning it and viewing it 145 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:09.360 as like part of your tech exposure, like it almost 146 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:10.879 should be part of the queues in a way. That 147 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.720 that's the argument that they're pushing. I just think there's 148 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:16.079 no one cohesive argument, so it's a little bit harder. 149 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.360 And honestly, ethereum is a lot more complex than bitcoin, right, 150 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.040 There's a lot more things you can do, so it's 151 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.079 a little more complicated. So for all those reasons, I 152 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:26.920 mean Bitcoin ETF's really done really well, maybe one sideways 153 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:29.199 the last couple of months, but still holding up well. 154 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.519 Everything is there's been no issues Ethereum. Honestly, still no 155 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:35.600 issues over there. You look at everything besides ETH, they've 156 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:40.519 taken in well over two billion dollars, so you know 157 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.240 we're looking at outflows, yes, but that's because two point 158 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.240 six billion came out of grey scales ETH, but two 159 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.240 point one roughly came in to the other products. So 160 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:52.839 they are doing well. They are pulling in money, it's 161 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.519 just not enough to offset the ETH outflows. 162 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.439 Yeah, and like you said, like maybe the timing wasn't 163 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:00.560 great given you know, we had headed in to summer 164 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.560 and then you know, I'm thinking from a RIA standpoint, 165 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.120 wealth manager standpoint, what you said, how much are you 166 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:09.319 going to throw at your clients? 167 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:09.560 Right? 168 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:12.759 You spend a lot of time pitching this new product Bitcoin. 169 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.519 It has the branding, it has the mass penetration, and 170 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.399 so forth. Etherom not so much. So if you go 171 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:21.839 to someone say, hey, there's also this thing called etherorem, 172 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.000 what's that? Why is it different? 173 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:24.279 And big? 174 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:27.240 You have to go through this whole explanation. So it's 175 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:27.879 a harder sell. 176 00:08:28.639 --> 00:08:30.879 Yeah, no, it really is a harder sell. And it's like, 177 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.320 as somebody who's like pretty well versed in this stuff, 178 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:36.320 you can kind of get it. So I honestly think 179 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.320 like it would have probably been easier if they had 180 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:42.759 launched like later this year or early next year, because 181 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:45.159 you're also not only is it those reasons you just 182 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.960 talked about, you're also like they pick on ETFs just launched, 183 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.600 like people are just getting comfortable with these things, and 184 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.320 then you're throwing another one at them right away. So 185 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.159 I think that all of that contributed to the lower 186 00:08:56.200 --> 00:09:00.240 demand we're seeing. That said, I also always expected that 187 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.039 the etherey metfs were going to be a bit of 188 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:05.320 a slower burn, if you will. Like I thought the 189 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:08.080 type of level of demand that we could see maybe 190 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.799 twenty five percent of the Bitcoin ETF flows, I thought 191 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.399 it might take a while to get there. And I 192 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:16.320 thought the theory metfs could potentially get up to like 193 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.440 their market cap rat show, which is like, I don't know, 194 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:21.519 thirty a third something like that over the longer term. 195 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:22.879 But I think it's going to be a slower burn 196 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:25.720 for all those things we just talked about. I'm kind 197 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.200 of second guessing as so right now, I actually I've 198 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:29.960 met with Steve mcclerk, who used to be one of 199 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.120 the guys running the Valkyrie ETFs. He has the under 200 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.399 on fifteen percent of the flows in six months versus 201 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.080 Bitcoin for ethereum, and I have the over and right 202 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:42.240 now I am I'm going to owe him some food 203 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:46.240 at Pubkey in New York City a few months from now. 204 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.559 Well, you know, James, look what we were talking about 205 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:54.679 with the FED cut raycuts and maybe some additional liquidity 206 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:57.519 injections from Janet Yellen and things like that. As we 207 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:00.559 head into the elections, right we know these sitting incumbent 208 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:04.080 wants to, you know, make things look good. The stock 209 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:06.879 marketing look good, the economy to look as best as possible. 210 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.799 So do you think we see some liquidity injections and 211 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.759 we are in much favorable environment where the inflows will increase? 212 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.600 Were both bigcoining ether coome Q four into twenty twenty five. 213 00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:22.679 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I do. I do think 214 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:25.240 it will help. And but part of the problem here is, right, like, 215 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:27.799 a lot of this is going to depend on the 216 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:29.720 political nature here. I know a lot of people will 217 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:31.679 say it shouldn't really matter that much, but I really 218 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.600 do think the political nature of what happens in November 219 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.759 will have an impact here. Obviously, ray cuts theoretically should 220 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.320 be beneficial to this market. There's no guarantee that that's 221 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:44.240 going to be the case, but theoretically that's what should happen. 222 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:48.840 But also we don't know exactly where somebody like Harris 223 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:50.559 is going to stand, if they're going to follow like 224 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.240 the typical way that Biden has handled things. I tend 225 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.720 to think not. I think it will be neutral at worst, 226 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:59.840 like maybe slightly positive at best if the demsill win 227 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:02.480 in November, and I think it could be a very 228 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:07.759 positive catalyst if somebody like Trump wins. 229 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.279 Yeah, agreed, and I know it's very heated right now 230 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.679 from the political standpoint, and we'll see what happens. I 231 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.840 did want to ask you about Solana. Is this Solana 232 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.799 ETF dead? Is it officiated? We had some filers, but 233 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:24.360 what do you think? 234 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:30.519 Yeah, So essentially what happened here is so for I've 235 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.120 definitely talked about this on your show before. So for 236 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:34.279 an ETF to launch, you need to basically approval from 237 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:36.679 two parts of the SEC, and you need two like 238 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:39.000 things that happened at once. The first thing is the 239 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.000 issuers have to file their prospectuses or s ones and 240 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:44.399 they go through the Division of Corporate Finance eventually to 241 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:46.559 get approved. So that's one division of the SEC. But 242 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:49.679 typically before they would approve those to Corporate Finance, you 243 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:52.039 also have to get these those nineteen befores which we've 244 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.240 talked about a lot, right and CBOE filed nineteen before 245 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.440 on behalf of ARC or sorry not on behalf of PARC, 246 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.240 half of twenty one Chaares and on behalf of van K. 247 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.080 Those filings went through, but they have since withdrawn them. 248 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:09.200 Essentially either the SEC refused to acknowledge them told them 249 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.600 to withdraw. Basically said this isn't happening, which isn't all 250 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.240 that surprising. I mean, if you look at some of 251 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:18.639 little lawsuits out there against Coinbase, Bracken, you name it, 252 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.360 they basically flat out calls all hot A security and 253 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.799 say they're not going to mess with that thing. So 254 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.519 what we've seen is CBE has withdrawn. So for now 255 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:28.799 it's dead in the order. Until we see another ninety 256 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:32.279 before filing, nothing can happen. That said, twenty one chairs 257 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.559 and van X still have those s ones out there, 258 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:37.360 so they're still filed. They're still technically active. They just 259 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.639 need to go through that nineteen before process before they 260 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:43.879 can get approved by the corporate finance. So are they 261 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:46.519 dead kind of? I think again this goes back to 262 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.360 what I was just saying with the political process. I 263 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.200 think if we see Trump in office, it's possible that 264 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:53.960 actually I would say it's it's highly likely we would 265 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.919 see another filing because the people would hope that somebody 266 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.639 else would be running the SEC, so there could be 267 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:01.960 a chain and the way the ADMIN is handling this stuff. 268 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:08.399 So I think that could come down to the presidential election. 269 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:10.919 But also you kind of need a bunch of other things, right, 270 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:12.799 like right now you have the CFTC and the SEC 271 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.320 arguing over jurisdiction. You have the SEC calling this thing 272 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.320 these things salon as specifically a security, CFTC is saying 273 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:22.600 it's not. And then so like you don't know who 274 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:24.960 has control over what. You don't know what exactly is 275 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.279 a security or what is a commodity. So you kind 276 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:29.200 of need that cleared up. Whether that's in the case 277 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.200 of kind of similar to like what Ripple has gone through, 278 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.000 you've got like some at least a little bit of 279 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.759 like binding clarity from the courts. You might need something 280 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.240 like that, or more likely, I think what you need 281 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.519 is a literal like Act of Congress to kind of 282 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.080 clear all this stuff up for some things other than 283 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:48.360 bitcoin and ethereum to get through. I mean, the way 284 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.399 right now it's set up is you need a futures 285 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.559 market that's regulated and surveilled and the CFTC feels comfortable 286 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.559 with it, and the SEC will allow it, and you 287 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.759 can kind of use that to get a spot etf 288 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.399 That's what we had with bitcoin, that's what we have 289 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.240 with ethereum. We don't have any other markets for any 290 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:05.759 other digital assets that could go through that same process, 291 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.559 right so you kind of need some other thing out 292 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.720 there to happen for these things to get approved. That said, 293 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:15.519 there is nothing like in the SEC regulation that says 294 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.879 like you need a futures market that is surveiled for 295 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:19.720 all these things. That's just kind of the process that 296 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:22.639 this SEC has followed and what they wanted. It's not 297 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.279 like that's hard coded into any law or language or anything. 298 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:26.639 That's why I said, if we get a change in 299 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.279 the admin at the SEC, then that could also change. 300 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:31.960 But there's a few other you need catalysts one of 301 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.639 those three or four things I just mentioned to happen 302 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.159 before you can get something like a Salona or possibly 303 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:38.919 even a ripple ETF. 304 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.440 Yeah, great point, And most likely we'll see what the 305 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.080 landscape looks like in twenty twenty five, because twenty twenty 306 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.320 four it's done right Lane ducks coming up campaigning and 307 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.600 gants are still there, so we got to wait to see, 308 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:56.879 like is there a regime change, and under Trump it 309 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.879 will be more pro crypto, So Bringers, it'd be nice 310 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:03.720 to have Solana maybe an ex r p ETF in 311 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:06.000 twenty twenty five. But then it goes back to what 312 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.360 we were talking about earlier. Would it be too saturated 313 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.919 for the masses, right, They get confused, Why do I 314 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.000 need to invest in Solana? Isn't the ethereum the same thing? 315 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.639 Let me just handle big, Let me just have some bigcoin, right. 316 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:20.519 Yeah, I mean, the one thing I would say is 317 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.919 that like the Selani, there's Salon ETFs elsewhere, right, Like, yeah, 318 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:25.519 we don't have a US, but we have them in Europe, 319 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.559 and there's a couple of billion dollars over there in 320 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.080 those ETFs, so they're they're big business. I think a 321 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:31.559 lot of that has to do with money came in 322 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.159 when when Solana was like in single digit prices, so 323 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:36.679 there was a lot of money that was in there, 324 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.120 and then so you don't need that much to be 325 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:41.759 in there, a few million dollars for it to get 326 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:43.440 to the level it has when the price has gone 327 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:45.600 up like I don't know, twenty x or whatever it is. 328 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:49.200 So I think that also played a role. But it's 329 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.519 still there's there's a lot of dctfs elsewhere, just not 330 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:57.279 here in the States, so there will be demand. But 331 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:59.919 like you said, I just think right now, as things 332 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:02.879 certainly look, it's kind of bitcoin first, and then everything 333 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.840 else will be slower burn or just maybe not garner 334 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.120 as much interest from the trad FI world, at least 335 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.000 in the near term. 336 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:14.240 Now, I wanted to ask you about bit Wise Asset 337 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:18.080 Management and their acquisitions. First was etc Group and then 338 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:22.480 they I believe, Osprey and Emerge the funds accordingly. So 339 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:24.799 this is this is pretty big. It looks like they're 340 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.799 trying to grow their market share, expand as much as possible. 341 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:29.679 What do you think about these acquisitions? 342 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.679 I love them, honestly. I mean there's been this huge 343 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.720 There's always been a lot of consolidation in the ascimnage 344 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.879 industry around ETF. So for many, many years it has 345 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.720 been a lot of like large legacy asset managers buying 346 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.600 ETF issuers who know the ETF market and how to 347 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:49.039 do it, and basically then launching their own products with 348 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:51.240 the IP that they get from those products. So that 349 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.440 that's been going on for over a decade. And now 350 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.519 we've seen a lot more consolidation where like these bigger 351 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.000 etf issuers in the US are buying smaller shops elsewhere 352 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.519 where in the world, whether they're European specialists or even 353 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.759 in Asia. So in the case of there's actually some 354 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:08.319 some asset managers in Asia that have bought big US 355 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.319 issuers to kind of drum up the interest there. So 356 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.440 that's been just an overwhelming trend that we've seen over 357 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.759 the last few years, and it's picking up and I 358 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.519 think it's a good thing. It's basically bit wise sees 359 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.400 them they bought etc Group. They have a bunch of 360 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:28.000 ETFs in Europe, particularly particularly holding crypto asseids, so there's 361 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.880 probably a lot of overlap they can do there. I mean, 362 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:33.839 for example, they own now a Salona ETF in Europe, 363 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:35.920 so twenty one shares. Who's another issuer the one that 364 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.799 we just talked about who also filed with van K, 365 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:41.119 They have some some ETFs. They they have the largest 366 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.599 salon of ETF in Europe. And you have van K 367 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.759 also who has etns or etcs wherever you want to 368 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:48.920 call them in Europe that hold these things. So there's 369 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.720 plenty of experience over there already with dealing with these 370 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.000 types of products. And then OBTC is unique. I think. 371 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:59.240 So obtc's structure was similar to those gray scale trusts 372 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:00.960 where they were kind of closed ended. You can come in, 373 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.319 but you couldn't really leave unless but you had you 374 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.680 could sell your shares, you can redeem them. So theoretically, 375 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:07.279 if it was trading at a massive discount, you just 376 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.160 had to sell at a discount if you wanted to sell, 377 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.640 and these things were trading a bit of a discount. 378 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:14.480 A lot of people thought that Osprey was going to 379 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.480 go through the same process that Gray Skill did and 380 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.799 you know, convert this thing to an outright ETF But 381 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.119 I think this was probably the best case scenario for 382 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.200 everyone involved. I mean, doing that is very expensive. They 383 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.519 only had one hundred and thirty million dollars in assets, 384 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.000 I think, so it's not like it was a huge 385 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:33.680 cash cow. And this way, those those holders of OBTC 386 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.359 are basically just going to get bit wise as bit 387 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.279 B shares in return of equivalent value. So all of 388 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:42.640 a sudden you get out, you're no longer a discount, 389 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.599 and you still have this coached pitcoin. It's a non 390 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.640 taxable event. So and then also Osprey doesn't have to 391 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.279 spend a bunch of time, effort, energy, money, you name it, 392 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.000 going through and converting this thing into an extremely competitive 393 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:59.000 market where fees are twenty BIPs and lower. And there's 394 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.400 already you know, wealked about this ten to eleven products 395 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:05.200 that hold spot bitcoin, like Osprey just launching and converting OPDC, 396 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.680 it'd be hard to like compete there, So I think 397 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.720 just makes sense for everyone. And like you said, bit 398 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.160 wise is growing its asset base. It now holds it 399 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.319 now owns that one hundred and thirty million. I don't 400 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.000 know what they paid for it, but they have those 401 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.000