WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:08.039 Oh he is, folks, it's show tied. 2 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:10.599 People pay good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.560 When they go out to a theater, they are cold sodas, 4 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.199 hot popcorn in No monsters in the protection booth. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.519 Everyone for tend. Podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:21.079 Turn it off. 7 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.880 Illegal in forty seven states. 8 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.039 It's the dirtiest sport in the world. Not since The 9 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.759 Hustler has the sabbathe underbelly of the gambling world been 10 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:56.799 so nakedly exposed. War Notes stars as Frank Mansfield's profession. 11 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.479 And my bird here he can beat anything you've got, showed. 12 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:03.520 Man Cockfighter of violent men and the sport that killed. 13 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:07.719 He's got an animal instinct for winning and. 14 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:08.760 Women to drive. 15 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:11.680 Drive in in history, be the best. 16 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.760 And he'll do anything to come out on top. 17 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:15.760 Winning is the name of the game. 18 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.599 Cockfighter from governor's mansions to cheap hotels. It's the big 19 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.920 money sport that's dirty, violent and outside the law. From 20 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.400 the award winning book, It takes a searing look at 21 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:28.079 the men with the lust to win and the women 22 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:32.879 who spur them on. Warren Os is the Cockfighter right 23 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:33.200 at all. 24 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.760 One hundred seventeen not admitted without Karen. 25 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:46.599 Regarding Welcome to the Projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike Whitehead. 26 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:49.000 Me once again, is mister Jedediah Ayers? 27 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:52.400 Do you know there's no two ounce leeway an official 28 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:55.840 a CT hack. Also back in the booth is Miss 29 00:01:55.879 --> 00:02:02.000 Heather Drain heleare Helene on this episode weirdscussing Monty Hellman's Cockfighter, 30 00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:05.280 released in nineteen seventy four, The film stars Warren Oates 31 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.400 as Frank Mansfield. When he came to town with his 32 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.560 cock in his hand, all the women swooned, and what 33 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.560 he did with it was illegal in forty seven states. 34 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:18.520 In other words, Frank Mansfield is a professional cockfighter, the 35 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:22.159 ancient game of pitting two roosters against one another for sport. 36 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:25.400 The film was based on Charles Williford's book of the 37 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:28.719 same name, and Williford wrote much of the finished screenplay. 38 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.879 We will be discussing his work and ruining this movie 39 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:34.520 as we go along, So if you don't want Cockfighters 40 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:37.080 spoiled for you, please turn off the podcast and come 41 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.280 back after you've seen it. We will still be here. So, Jededi, 42 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:42.400 when was the first time you saw Cockfighter? And what 43 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:47.120 did you think? I was aware of the book first, 44 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:53.159 and I read the book or probably fifteen years ago. 45 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:58.479 I saw the movie probably look Out two or three 46 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:02.000 years after that, more than a decade, but I can't 47 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:04.639 remember exactly what it was I first saw it, But 48 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:09.680 I loved the book and I liked the movie quite 49 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:14.680 a bit, and I've liked it increasingly with rewatches, part 50 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:17.560 of it just being I love warn Oates on screen, 51 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:20.639 and he didn't get to be the star of too 52 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:27.280 many movies, and this was just a great vehicle for him. Yeah, 53 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:29.199 I love the film, though I don't think i've ever 54 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:32.960 seen it on DVD, like a nice, kind of pristine 55 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.520 version of it. I think all the stuff I've seen 56 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:39.680 has been luddy, and I hope I get the chance 57 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.960 to get one of those nice copies of it today. 58 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:44.719 And Heather, how about yourself. 59 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:47.199 This was a first time watched for me. This was 60 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.240 a film that had been on my need to watch 61 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.879 list for a long time. Of course I was familiar 62 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.520 with it. I also knew that Kailagendiese is a huge 63 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:58.960 fan of it. Of course she has a book. I'm 64 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.840 so glad you're going to get to innerwer She is 65 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:05.360 like the grand pouva of this film. So that's very exciting. 66 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:09.080 And of course the quote Jedediah or to cite him, 67 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.800 Warren is a god to me, he is an anty god. 68 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.959 If he's in anything, I will watch it, And so 69 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:19.199 I was like, this was the perfect impetus for me 70 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:21.240 to watch it. I still need to read the book 71 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:28.000 I Am super Neophied Calic Fighter Universe. And also kudos 72 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:32.079 for the rampant Dick jokes, so that the introduction. 73 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:35.800 That's all from Oh gosh, why am I blanking on 74 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:40.680 the gentleman's name? Who produced Thunder and Lightning? And which 75 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:43.920 was another vehicle with Charles Williford in it and David 76 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:47.000 Krdine I guess David Cardyine stars in it and Charles 77 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.319 Williford has a like five minute part in it. Him 78 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:54.720 and Joe Dante and Alan Arkash were all making up 79 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.160 the lines for this trailer, and including those that I 80 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.959 was quoting above, which I don't know if they ever 81 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.199 made it to any of the trailers The Born to 82 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:05.279 Kill or any of those, but we'll definitely be talking 83 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:10.120 about the retitlings and recuts as we go along here. Yeah, 84 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:11.879 this one, I'm trying to remember how I came to 85 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:16.120 this movie because Monty Hellman was a real big cipher 86 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.079 for a long time. People knew of some of his works, 87 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.720 but I wasn't aware of him as a person. And 88 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.560 I think I got to know him through the producing 89 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.639 work that he did on Reservoir Dogs, and then eventually 90 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:37.240 interviewed him for an old issue of Cashiers. And that 91 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.680 was back when it was still really tough to find 92 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:44.519 his movies. It was ordering two Lane Blacktop through a 93 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:48.439 video search of Miami. When it comes to this movie, 94 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.519 I found a VHS copy of it at Suncoast or 95 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:55.959 Sam Goodie or one of those. And the back cover 96 00:05:56.160 --> 00:06:00.399 of this VHS tape, speaking of shitty quality, Jedidiah looked 97 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:05.000 absolutely awful. But this was the copy on the back 98 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:07.000 of the book. And I think you're both going to 99 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.319 enjoy this. Take a dark and eerie walk deep into 100 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.120 the Georgia backwoods, where those who aren't welcome don't always 101 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:18.279 come out. Warren Oates wants to be the king of 102 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:24.319 the roost in the rough and dangerous Southern underground, where moonshine, talk, fights, 103 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.040 hard luck, and wild knights are all part of his game. 104 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.519 This ain't no place for the timid, and Oates uses 105 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.959 his fists, knives, and whatever else it takes to get 106 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:38.720 what he wants and hold on to what he's got. 107 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.720 The plot thickens when Oak crosses the wrong guys and 108 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:48.079 learn about Mountain style justice the Hard Way, a riveting 109 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:51.560 look at a side of life where most civilized people 110 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:56.120 can't even imagine eight but for one law in these parts, 111 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.120 and they don't care who lives or dies. 112 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.920 Yeah, it's a much more be shitting the thunder and 113 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.000 lightning Bobby than Cockfighter. 114 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.240 But yeah, you know what's. 115 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:11.399 Weird, that's actually the drain family crest. I can't believe 116 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:16.240 they cribbed our whole Famili's lenneage like that. Good Lord, 117 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:19.759 do you think said brown Rig direct this is a movie? 118 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.879 And I say that loving brown Rig, But holy a 119 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:26.639 Purple pros the hell out of the description. 120 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:33.519 And this was so then the video stopped when they 121 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:35.600 showed the title of it. It was very much like 122 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.399 when I watched Disco Godfather the very first time, and 123 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.079 the video stops and they put in Chiron over at 124 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.720 the avenging Disco Godfather. So they changed the title, but 125 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.399 with this one it stops and they pasted board to 126 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.439 kill over Cockfighter. But as far as I know, it's 127 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.839 the exact same movie that we saw. It is no different. 128 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:05.319 There were no knife fights, are moonshiners that shit in here? Instead, 129 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:08.279 it was the movie that we still eat these days. 130 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:12.120 And yeah, I have yet to find that alternate cut 131 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.560 with like dream sequences and all of these crazy things. 132 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.759 But what this was and when I finally saw it, 133 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.680 I was just blown away. I'm not that into cock fighting, 134 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.680 but I am very much into the Big Three that's 135 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.040 war Oates, Monte Hellman, and Charles Williford. And this movie 136 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:34.919 has those elements in space, including Charles Williford acting in this. 137 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.559 So my heart was just all a flutter when I 138 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:38.240 got to see this. 139 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:42.840 I wasn't aware really of Charles Wilford. I'd seen Miami 140 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.879 Blues and I knew it was based on a book. 141 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:50.120 Probably about twenty years ago or so, I first became 142 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.679 aware of Charles Wilford and had some friends who were 143 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:59.279 big Willingford heads and started reading I think Cockfighters the 144 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:03.799 first one I read. And I remember reading it because 145 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.519 I was sick, and I was so thankful I was 146 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.200 sick because I didn't have to go to work and 147 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:12.000 I could just stay in bed and read all day. 148 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.960 I had young kids at the time, and I was 149 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.759 just exhausted, and I was like, nope, I have a 150 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:20.039 great excuse just to stay in bed and read all day. 151 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:24.679 And I read probably two or three books over the 152 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.559 course of a few days. Cockwriter was one of them, 153 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.279 and I really made them impress I loved it, and yeah, 154 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.720 it wasn't for a few years after that I realized 155 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:38.679 they've been a movie adaptation. Williford was definitely my initial 156 00:09:38.759 --> 00:09:43.519 interest in cock Fighter, and then about the time I 157 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:45.799 saw the movie, I was really starting to hone in 158 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.159 on realizing that I really like Warren Oates as a 159 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:55.200 screen presence. Yeah, but yeah, Williford for me first, and 160 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:57.240 then of course the rest of the cast. Two are 161 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:01.320 heading Stanton and it's just lovely to watch the two 162 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.279 of them hang out on screen. Any chance to. 163 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:05.639 Do that, I'm down for. 164 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:06.639 Yeah. 165 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:09.600 I don't remember how I came to Williford, or how 166 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.200 Williford came to me. I'm pretty sure my friend rich 167 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.200 Osband turned me on to him. I don't remember when 168 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.559 that was. So this was Cashier's to Cinema at number five, 169 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:22.639 and by issue nine they weren't a yearly thing. They 170 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.200 were a as soon as I possibly can type of thing, 171 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:30.000 which sometimes was two years or more. By issue nine, 172 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.879 I was writing about Williford overall, and with that one, 173 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.799 I was so glad. I was able to track down 174 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:40.360 the Cockfighter Journal and read his book about the behind 175 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.679 the scenes stuff, which is fascinating as well. But the 176 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.120 only thing I really remember from that whole book was 177 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:51.440 him just complaining about Lori Bird so much he just 178 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:55.360 could not stand fair. And then reading Kayla Jennings's book, 179 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.639 it sounds like it was a pretty big club that 180 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:00.840 he was part of. When I came to the we 181 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:02.879 can't stand Lori Bird club. 182 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:07.720 I remember hearing that on the two Lane Blacktop commentary 183 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:13.080 that they were irritated with her, especially because they were 184 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:17.200 musicians and she was singing and she really couldn't pull 185 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.879 the tune, and apparently they were chopping at the bit 186 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.639 every time she would sing it on screen, and Martiella 187 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:26.519 was having to tell Nope, you gotta take it, you 188 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.440 gotta sit there and take it, and they irritated by that. 189 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.000 I think she's fun on screen, though, I like her. 190 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.320 I think she's perfect in this movie. 191 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:38.759 The cast of this film blew me away, and I 192 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:41.519 expected part of that because of who was in it, 193 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:47.600 but the authenticity they nailed it. This phil's so real. 194 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.279 You could practically smell this movie, and that's out of way. 195 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.440 It's a good smell, but I love that and the 196 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.559 fact that it's like, of course it's authentic. We have 197 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:01.360 Charles Williford involved. He's literally in the movie. I found 198 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.639 out he was from my home state. He's born in 199 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.360 Little Rock, Arkansas. And it feels authentic because that's the 200 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:10.919 thing you can always tell whenever somebody who's not familiar 201 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.399 with the South is making a movie, because it's just 202 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.279 like bad he Haw accents, even when they're trying to 203 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:21.240 do serious dramas. I remember seeing the trailer for Hillbilly Elegy. 204 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.240 Yeah yeah, god if we knew then, and seeing Glen Clobe, 205 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.480 they like, this is a fabulous actress, but her accent, 206 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.080 oh my god. It was about as authentic as Surely 207 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:37.879 C Liquor, which, yeah, it's a deep cut there bating 208 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.720 radio advance. But this film that just feels not only 209 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:44.879 authentic to the locale and the actor is still authentic 210 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:49.399 to that, but it feels very honest because there's something 211 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.679 about like in rural communities where there's not a lot 212 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.480 of money, and it's like you have this necessity that 213 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.559 kind of breeds desperation. You have necessity that breeds brutality. 214 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:05.440 It's a hard life, and it's I feel like this film, 215 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:10.159 even though our protagonist is not a good person and 216 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.639 he doesn't brought of really crummy things, he's a human 217 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:17.639 being and everybody this film is a human being, and 218 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.840 there's such a respect with that. There's not a judgment 219 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.919 with that. And I absolutely love that about this film 220 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.159 because that's a I think that's a hard line for 221 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.159 a lot of storytellers, whether you're doing pros or film, 222 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:33.519 can do and do it well. 223 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:38.399 The elements that you would take to sell a picture 224 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.639 like this, like you're reading off the jagged copy on 225 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:46.000 the VHS, all that stuff that would be so played 226 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.279 up is very much just the day to day reality 227 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.320 each year, and it's shrugged off people like when the 228 00:13:55.399 --> 00:14:02.320 robbery happens, just prison doing business. We understand this is 229 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:04.679 going to happen. It was an approached and handled like 230 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:09.120 a big set piece, like a suspense sequence or something 231 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.879 like that. It was just and here's one more thing 232 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.960 that this life entails. And yeah, so there was a 233 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:21.279 lot of that too. Heather's point of brutality is took 234 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.039 part of the life. But again, no, he's not a 235 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:30.639 good guy and there but there's a certain respect given 236 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:35.159 to the people who lived this lifestyle and that it's 237 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:41.399 treated matter of factly and it's not particularly titillating in 238 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.559 a judgment was held, which. 239 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.320 I really appreciate because I think even to this day, 240 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.519 a lot of people have and our culture looked down 241 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:56.080 upon people that live, especially if they're living in a 242 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:00.879 poor rural area and you don't have access good education. 243 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.240 The public school systems dodgy enough in our country and 244 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.759 wealth funded areas. And it's like this film does exactly 245 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.679 what it showed because it's not justifying any bad behavior. 246 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:16.200 It's not glorifying it, which diet, but it's not condemning it. 247 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.399 It's just here's his story. And I love that with 248 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:24.120 Laurie Bird's character, they could have done more pathos with 249 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.240 her because I really get the filling and are a 250 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:29.559 friend of mine and my husbands are friend. Randall has 251 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.399 this phrase us like certain people, it's almost like they're 252 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.440 like a hamburger rapper in the wind, which is they're 253 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.480 living their life in this way and I feel like 254 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.720 this poor girl, it's just like this hamburger rapper in 255 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.120 the red just floating to and she's ynged, but just 256 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:51.279 floating to whatever guy and is literally sold. She's property. 257 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:54.440 And just the way that we hear him refer to her, 258 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.120 just like, oh she's a pretty girl, she's a good lay. 259 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:00.799 She'll land on her feet and it's good. Crazy she 260 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.759 ends up herr Dan Stanton, that's not too bad. Everything 261 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.039 is so smartly he in the code of edinboard pathos 262 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:09.679 the whole robbery, which I honestly, if this was a 263 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:12.759 more traditional movie, ye, would you guys have been surprised 264 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:14.720 at one of the guys the mask was Steve Rareil's back. 265 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.159 I totally was expecting the how And I don't know why. 266 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:20.480 I think it's just because I like to see Steve brelsman. 267 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:23.120 My brain was like, get me more reals. 268 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:23.440 Bat. 269 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.480 It's just all the little touches, Omar hiding his money 270 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:33.679 in the bathtub full of chicken carcasses. Insane, but such 271 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:34.320 a great time. 272 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.279 Yeah, it's really a simple film when you boil it down, 273 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:42.279 because it's this guy who's got this code of ethics 274 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:45.320 right or wrong, what's his code, and he's going to 275 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.960 live by it, especially when he shot off his mouth 276 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.679 and I was drinking too much, boasting about his cock 277 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.720 and how his cock would be undefeated, and yeah, Harry 278 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:58.200 Dean Stanton took him up on it. I was like, 279 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.759 all right, let's see it, and they had their little 280 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.160 cock fight in the hotel room. He ends up losing 281 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.759 his prize rooster and he's sunk. He cannot go to 282 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.039 the Southern what is it, the Southern Cocker Tournament or whatever. 283 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.359 It is the big thing that he's living his life for. 284 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.240 And then he makes a promise to himself, I will 285 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.079 not speak or drink again until I win that medal, 286 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.359 and that's his whole thing. Laurie Bird calls him on it. Hey, 287 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:26.200 I heard you talking to your sleep last day. If 288 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.519 you can talk while you're sleeping, you can talk while 289 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.680 you're awake. He just does not want to explain to 290 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.039 her what is going on with him. He doesn't want 291 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.920 to explain to anybody, and he just wanders his way 292 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.000 through stuff. And once he loses that initial match that 293 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.359 we see in the movie, he's given, Okay, now I 294 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.240 got to figure this out. And that's the whole movie 295 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.920 is him moving from place to place getting money, trying 296 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:55.680 to buy these chickens from Ed Middleton, this now retired 297 00:17:55.799 --> 00:18:02.079 judge of cock fighting and training, this bird up partnering 298 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.640 with Omar Bredinski, the Richard Schule character, who I just 299 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:10.880 fucking love. And they're Pal Buford, who's played by Robert 300 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.880 Earl Jones, the father of James Earl Jones, who we 301 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.240 just learned passed away today, So that's a real shame. 302 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:21.480 But yeah, I love the chemistry of those guys. And 303 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.720 the ending of the movie kind of sneaks up on 304 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.599 you because it's just basically them going through all these tournaments. 305 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.839 The next thing they're at the big tournament. It's almost 306 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.000 like a Bad News Bears type of thing, like we're 307 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.200 gonna go through and pick off all of these smaller competitions, 308 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.039 and we get to see all these adventures that they 309 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.559 go on. We get to see, yes, Steve Railsback, get 310 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.039 to see Ed Begley Junior in here going absolutely ape 311 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.599 shit with a fucking hatchet going after Frank. 312 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.559 I love that, and especially because you get the feeling 313 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:58.480 he's his character's a little middlely off and then you 314 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:02.000 hear and he's going after warn Oats with an axe 315 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.920 and Warren Oats and them was drowning him and his 316 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.559 in his and I've looked that character was his father, right. 317 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.200 Yes, yeah, you might want not to hold him under 318 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:11.640 the water. 319 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.519 So loss it's like, you know that family tree does 320 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.359 not have a lot of branches and the baby ed 321 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.440 Bailey Junior. Like this film we get Millie Perkins for 322 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.000 five minutes and Trey Donnie, who I look like. I 323 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.039 kept feel like it's a mad, mad mad world, but 324 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.599 with just like cool character actors. It's such a I 325 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.640 I think miss it was Joe Spinell, but he's not 326 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.880 Southern Wright. We love Jow but Joe's so New York. 327 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.599 It's yeah, that would have worked out. But I'm so 328 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:47.119 glad you mentioned Omar. Omar was absolute my favorite character. 329 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.960 He's like the farmer poet, like the way he talks 330 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:55.799 and Schol's performance is so magnetic and he's just looks 331 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.920 like this gentleman just sparkle in his eye, gentleman farmer 332 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.200 with away with words and just the talking about lightning. 333 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.519 And oh I loved him in Viewford so much. I'm 334 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.160 like these two were characters. I'm like I wouldn't mind 335 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:14.640 hanging out with these guys. They seem nice, They're lovely. 336 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.000 Cockfighting is awful. 337 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.160 It is it loves the book. Of course, you get 338 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:23.359 a lot more out of the Frank character because it 339 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:29.240 is it's all internal, internal monologuing, so you understand him 340 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:34.279 a little bit better. But by god, you get swayed 341 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.400 by him. You buy into his bullshit a lot more 342 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.640 about what he's doing being in Noble Pursuit, and he's 343 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.400 talking about how much he loves, like his real love 344 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:52.359 for these birds, and he's just describing the routine he's 345 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.240 going through to train them and things like that, and 346 00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:01.680 then he's just or true to death. He's got two 347 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:06.079 birds that are siblings, and he figures he can push 348 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.799 one until it chills him, so he knows what the 349 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.880 other one can take, and he can push him. It 350 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.240 just tortues this bird to death while he's talking about 351 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.880 how much he loves him. And yeah, it was a 352 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:25.799 real Warren Oates is great, but it is different. Having 353 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:32.039 even the voiceover that is in there is a little less. 354 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.119 It's less compelling than for making these types of arguments 355 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:42.640 than really living with this voiceless characters in air. Voice 356 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:46.640 through the pages of the books. I carried that with 357 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:51.759 me into watching the movie. And I'm curious for people 358 00:21:51.799 --> 00:21:54.680 who haven't read the book if it's how much of 359 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.400 that they bought into Frank's kind of bullshit, because I 360 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.039 did bought into it, and then I realized how awfully 361 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.680 was and it was hilarious, but it was all. 362 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.240 I don't think you read the book, So how much 363 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:10.319 did you buy into his bullshit? 364 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.640 Let's just say I wasn't one of the I wouldn't 365 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.799 be one of the ladies. How was the intro swooning 366 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.559 over his massive cock or whatever that the cock talk? 367 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.640 But yeah, it's more no to me. That's what helps 368 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.519 is you. I think a lesser actor, it would have 369 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.759 been tausted, not the movie, because got the movie the 370 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.480 whole good Lord, yeah, money Hellman, Lewis tig The editing's great. 371 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:43.839 The cinematography is fantastic, like Mester Almandrose, I know on 372 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:49.000 Butcher that't sorry, sir, but fabulous cinematographer. But you need 373 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.880 an actor to pull up that character who you can't 374 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:53.599 help but just even look at and be like, I 375 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.599 like this guy. He's just got a presence about him. 376 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:01.240 Frank's many flaws I think it's what made him interesting. 377 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:05.440 He approaches cockfighting and I maybe I hope we're not 378 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.279 talking on my ass with his analogy, but to me, 379 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.480 it's almost like he moves like an addict. He literally 380 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.839 sells the house that his brother and his wife are 381 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.759 living in so he could get money to keep cockfighting. 382 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.519 I hope he made a little bit more than five 383 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:24.319 hundred dollars out of that transaction. 384 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.240 He sells his brother's house. 385 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:27.680 Out from my. 386 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:31.319 I'm sure he made a little more, but yet he 387 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:34.519 wants five hundred dollars to buy ed Middleton's cock. 388 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:40.559 This violent sport. And that's to say, like the scenes 389 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.039 of cockfighting were very hard for me to get through. 390 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.839 I feel, especially as I've gotten to the point in 391 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.839 my life now, like seeing animal violence in films. It's 392 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.039 never that it was easy when I was younger, but 393 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.039 it's really hard for me now, Like I'm so sensitive 394 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:58.319 and I didn't have to cover my eyes through some 395 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.319 of it just because I just can't. I don't know how. 396 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.359 It just hurts my heart to see the innocent suffer. 397 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.440 It is filmed like a dance, and I think the 398 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.480 way the film approaches this and it's awful this is 399 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.799 such a horrible baby for animals over the dupes, but 400 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:18.559 it films it like a dance, and that is so compelling. 401 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:20.880 And then also I think helps to what we were 402 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.839 just talking about with Frank, because this is a dance 403 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.240 he is so invested in you get the feel like 404 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.680 he defines his soul almost who he is as a 405 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.599 human with his fiancee, Mary Elizabeth, who we meet and 406 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:36.720 she basically you can tell she loves and she's like, 407 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:37.759 I don't want you to doing this. 408 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.640 I don't want to be living like this, and which 409 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.559 is more than an understandable, which is more than reasonable, 410 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.279 and he invites her to this big, fancy derby so 411 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.400 she could see him in the ring, and I was like, 412 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.039 what a stunning thing to be like, this is such 413 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:54.680 a huge. 414 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.240 Part of you. That's if you're gonna love me, I 415 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.319 want you to see me at my work. Which that 416 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.920 that go well for him in the Romhetz department. A 417 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.440 little romantic note for any anybody who's sang old out, well, 418 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:08.319 don't do cockfighting. 419 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:10.559 It's a leak. So he doesn't want to end up 420 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.599 like Ed Middleton who is being pressured to get out 421 00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.519 of cock fighting. He won't admit it to Frank, but 422 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:22.079 he's his wife is okay, sure, I'll do that. I'll 423 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:27.000 sell this prize rooster for five hundred dollars, which Frank 424 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:28.839 is never going to be able to pay me that money. 425 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:30.599 I know he's not going to be able to. So 426 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.480 then yeah, he turns around, sells that house out from 427 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.759 under his near Dowell brother, his brother who and I'm sorry, 428 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.039 I'm going off of a lot of stuff in the book, 429 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:41.960 so a lot of stuff that doesn't come across in 430 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:46.400 the movie. But he Frank was not the golden child 431 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.559 because he was the guy who went off and was 432 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:52.440 doing this whole cockfighting thing. So his dad said, okay, 433 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.480 I'm giving everything to your brother, to Randall I think 434 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:59.160 his name is. And Frank was like, no, that if 435 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.799 any court in the cull would read the Bible and 436 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.880 know primogeniture and know that I'm the one that deserves 437 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.720 all this stuff. So I'm going to fuck over my 438 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:10.000 brother to get this money so i can start this 439 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.440 new cockfighting venture because he doesn't want to be poor 440 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.160 and he wants to win this thing so much, and yeah, 441 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.160 you're right, it is very much like he's got an 442 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.319 addiction and it's all so much of the book is 443 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:25.240 how do I get money? How do I get money? 444 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.279 I'm going to go back to this guy, this doctor 445 00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:32.279 who sells salves and bones, and he has this new 446 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:36.839 anti indigestion medicine that he's trying to get off the ground. Well, 447 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:39.200 he owes me money, I'm going to go to him. 448 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.559 I'm gonna get money out of him. No he doesn't 449 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:42.880 have any money. I'm okay, I'm going to go to 450 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:44.559 my brother and try to get money out of him. 451 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:46.799 No he doesn't have any money. Fuck my brother. I'm 452 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.279 gonna just sell this fucking house and take all this 453 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:50.079 money that way. 454 00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:51.160 Yeah. 455 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.960 He is asperate to do this, and he goes through 456 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.480 so much. There's a whole character, whole section that's in 457 00:26:58.519 --> 00:27:01.440 the book that isn't in the movie where he's going 458 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:04.720 out and playing music at a bar. Eventually gets picked 459 00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:08.640 up by this woman, Bernice, who takes him home and 460 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.799 he will She agreed to pay him twenty dollars to 461 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:13.920 pay for all of her to play for all of 462 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:17.720 her fancy friends and family, And when she goes to 463 00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.359 give him a fifty at the end of the night, 464 00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:22.759 and he's just, oh, no way, I agreed to twenty dollars, 465 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:25.759 not fifty dollars. Like, again, those principals come up, So 466 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:28.359 what's he do? He ends up sleeping with her, taking 467 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:32.400 the fifty dollars, breaking his guitar and leaving it on 468 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.799 her front porch to be like, this is the extra 469 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:37.079 thirty dollars that you gave me. My guitar is worth 470 00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.400 about thirty dollars. I'm just like, you are fucking insane. 471 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:45.680 And all of Charles Wildeford's protagonists are insane. They all 472 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.279 are obsessed with things. They're always going after things, they 473 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:52.960 always have weird little works and stuff, and I'm just like, 474 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:57.480 they're fascinating to me to read these characters because they 475 00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.960 are all fucked up in one way or another. 476 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.839 They remind me of a middle ground between a Michael 477 00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:11.519 Man very driven, code living character and a Darren Aronofsky 478 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:16.799 or someone who's who's society thinks they're crazy, but they've 479 00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:20.319 got this muse that they're going to follow to the end. 480 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.640 And it's that mel ground Frank would see himself. I 481 00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.279 think more like a Michael Man character, maybe more like 482 00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:31.200 the guy in Jericho. Mild is just running and he's 483 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.000 not running for it's not competition, it's not whatever. It's 484 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.079 just this is how I'm doing my time. This is 485 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.839 how I keep the world from owning me. Is I 486 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.000 just brought and that's what he's going to do. But yeah, 487 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.960 it's I hadn't really thought of it as as an 488 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.759 addict story, but hearing you guys describe it that way, 489 00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:58.680 it makes sense. And I do think it maybe brings 490 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:03.519 those two sort of one he's perhaps nobler than the other, 491 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:08.400 but they almost touch and I sink cockwriter. Maybe is 492 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:10.920 the bridge that connects them that way. 493 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:13.960 Talking about the whole chasing the money, you feel like, 494 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:16.240 what's ever going to be enough? He could win the 495 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.119 most amount of money and he's just going to use 496 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:20.559 it to keep the cycle going. 497 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.960 But it's not even the money. I think he earns 498 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.680 a thousand dollars for it. It's that fucking medal. He 499 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:31.319 just wants that medal, and that medals what triggers his 500 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.400 whole flashback. Like when Middleton shows him the medal, He's 501 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:36.559 just like, this could have been yours, but you talk 502 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.559 too much and you drink too much, and then that 503 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:41.759 triggers that flashback, and I love I can't remember if 504 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.319 it was Brad Stevens or who it was writing about. 505 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.119 Does Frank ever come out of the dream sequence? Is 506 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.400 he just in that dream sequence for so much of 507 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:55.680 this movie, because the way that Hellman presents it, it 508 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.160 isn't like a typical dream sequence. It's not like the 509 00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.680 screen gets blurry or the edges fog up or something. 510 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.480 They're just like, okay, that's interesting. And then this writer, 511 00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:08.119 whoever it was, and I apologize if it was Brad 512 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.519 or somebody else, was talking about the scene with Omar 513 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.519 being robbed, and that's the only time that we really 514 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.960 move away from Frank, and we aren't with Frank because 515 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.680 almost every single scene he's in, but that's the one 516 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:26.559 time that we go away. And it's also all taking 517 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.039 place in a hotel room, which is where Frank's humiliation was. 518 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:32.880 They all end up taking off their pants at the 519 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.920 end of this robbery, and so it's just is this 520 00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.920 like some sort of weird sexual humiliation that Frank went 521 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:43.559 through with Jack Burke, the Harry Deedon Stanton character. Yeah, 522 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.319 it might be a little bit out there, but it 523 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.160 is interesting that this is the only time that we 524 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.279 don't see Frank in the movie, that we just stick 525 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.880 with Omar and meanwhile they're cross cutting it with Frank 526 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.599 and I believe it's the whole scene with Ed Begley 527 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:01.039 Junior where he's cheating and they have rosin up the 528 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:05.200 rooster's feet and all that, and yeah, that seems amazing. 529 00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:08.359 And that's all again somebody trying to welch on a deal. 530 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.039 Ed Bigley Junior's father tries to welch on this deal. Oh, sorry, 531 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.359 don't have a thousand dollars. I only have three hundred. 532 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.079 And then Steve Railsback tries to welch on a deal 533 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.359 as well. It's just like, oh, I don't have the 534 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:21.640 twenty five dollars and they have to push him down 535 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:23.480 and grab his wallet and be like, no, you got 536 00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:26.000 plenty of money here, Junior. This is what you get 537 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.519 for trying to stick your finger up a chicken's ass. 538 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.000 His daddy told him, though, you gotta show him how 539 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.039 to stick up finger up the cock's ass. 540 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.519 I love that the way he said, bro, my dad, 541 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:40.400 I don't know. Just here is Steve Railsback say that baby, 542 00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:43.000 Steve rails meck of fat. Like this is two years 543 00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:48.960 before Helter Skealper. And so that was amazing there's so 544 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:53.160 many great shots in this film too. There's one and 545 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:56.000 this is early on where but one of the early 546 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.440 cock fights, you hear a little boy just crying, which, yeah, 547 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.359 that's the thing. Why would you take your children too that? 548 00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:07.400 And that's what my daddy told me. But yeah, but 549 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.640 the little boy and this shot like haunts me. It's 550 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:13.680 just such a brilliant jode Is. He's covering, he's crying, 551 00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:15.839 and he's covering his eyes with what looks like a 552 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:20.680 one dollar bill, and that just ooh, that just hit 553 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:24.319 me so hard. And just this is the horrors of 554 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:28.960 what we do for money, of what just in our society. 555 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.920 It's like this, it's the innocent again. To me, it's 556 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:37.119 like the innocent suffer. And even the fact that the 557 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.720 robbers aren't they all wearyly President masks a little. 558 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.880 Point blank all those years beforehand. 559 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.279 And just that shot, the way they did the super 560 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.359 imposition of Mary Elizabeth sitting by the light. You notice 561 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:52.640 how they're transitioning to him going to the real estate 562 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:59.319 office to how cold his brother out of money. But 563 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:03.200 that's so a position of her lasts longer than it 564 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.039 normally won in a movie. It's almost it adds just 565 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.920 to this sort of plonning tolle of this is what 566 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.759 he's leaving behind. This is having any sense of healthy love, 567 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:19.400 any sense of just normality and gentility is gone. 568 00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:20.079 Yeah. 569 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.960 I really picked up a lot more this time listening 570 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.359 to the book, just the way that women are treated 571 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:31.519 in the book, between Dodi and Bernice and Mary Elizabeth. 572 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:35.720 It's like Dody you see this in the movie, that 573 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.200 she has started to wash some of Frank's clothes, but 574 00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:41.759 she hasn't finished, and so they're just all in a 575 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.440 wet buckaville of water, and he throws those clothes at her. 576 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.039 And then later on when he meets Bernice after they 577 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.440 have sex, she's just compelled to do something for him, 578 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:54.920 and so she goes in and washes his underwear in 579 00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.640 the sink. So it's like more wet clothes and they're 580 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.480 still wet when he tries to sneak out to just like, 581 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:03.440 I guess I'm leaving these things here. So I'm just like, 582 00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:05.839 how many times is it like women not only were 583 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.199 women washing for him, but then they would also cook 584 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:11.840 for him, And you get that also in the movie, 585 00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.639 but like Bernice cooks for him, Dodie doesn't cook for him. 586 00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.480 I don't even think she knows how to cook that well. 587 00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:22.639 She talks about hungry man dinners, and then his sister 588 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.639 in law she cooks for him as well. And it's 589 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:29.119 just what are women just cooking and cleaning vehicles in 590 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.239 this book and movie? And I think they are so 591 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.519 I don't think that's going to change my opinion of 592 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.119 Charles Williford, but it was just pretty funny to realize 593 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:41.880 just how the status of women is just so low in. 594 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:46.760 Cockfighter the chickens. They're treated better for the chickens. 595 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:46.480 But. 596 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:48.679 Not very much. 597 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.000 I think Dody White is almost a rooster when she 598 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.280 comes in and starts attacking him, and she's wearing that 599 00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.239 bright red outfit. I'm just like, is she a rooster? 600 00:34:58.400 --> 00:34:59.119 Now? Yeah? 601 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.000 And I love how got that line about what are 602 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:03.599 the odds on missus Burst? 603 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.880 I love Omar. Yeah, any of that characters would say that. 604 00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:10.559 I'd be like you sex and panted, and Omar says it, 605 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.239 I'm just like, oh you like, you're so funny. Oh 606 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.199 my god, you're watching a strange man's underwear after a 607 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:19.760 one night stand. That's wool. 608 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.440 He was offender too, because I was clean underwear. How 609 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:23.920 dare she? 610 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.960 Oh, I highly doubt they were clean. Let's be honest, 611 00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.480 let's let's think about the life freaks living you want. 612 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.440 These drawers are about as clean as the little nasty 613 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:42.960 floor that Ed Bagley's chicken died on. Late drawers. Yeah, 614 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.320 thank god that wasn't in the movie. I'm glad that 615 00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:46.760 didn't make it into the film. 616 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.119 Apparently Bernice was in there for a long time, and 617 00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.639 there's even an ending with Bernice in there, because she's 618 00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:56.480 I don't know if she takes the place in Mary Elizabeth, 619 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.559 but I think it's a torn between two lover type 620 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:02.679 of things between Bernice and Mary Elizabeth. Now why I 621 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:06.480 say the book ends that way as well. This whole 622 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.239 thing of the ending of the movie with him ripping 623 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.519 the head off of the chicken and putting her putting 624 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:17.039 her his cock in her purse, which is always the 625 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:22.880 Freudian vagina metaphor. So it's just like, okay, we're having sex, 626 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:27.599 I guess here, or is he saying I will give 627 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:30.559 up my manhood for you? Because there is that whole 628 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:33.119 thing of like, how dear these women try to change 629 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:37.559 us men? Middleton's got it, And here's Frank take this 630 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:42.800 just pah at that moment. Oh, it's bad enough when 631 00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:46.000 he cuts the head off of that one rooster, it 632 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:48.360 just so matter of factly, But then for him to 633 00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:51.039 pull the fucking head off of a chicken at the 634 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.920 end of this movie, hand it to her that disgust 635 00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:58.440 on her face, and when she puts it in the 636 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:03.239 the handkerchief and just reads in the riot act. I 637 00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:05.480 love her speech at the end of this about how 638 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:09.000 she just looked at She wasn't watching the chickens, she 639 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:11.760 was watching him and just saw no what was it, 640 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.360 No love, no pity, nothing, and just saw what a 641 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:19.800 man he really is. But then she takes that talk 642 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.639 from him. I'm just so surprised, and then his little 643 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:27.079 she loves me Omar at the end. Wow, what a 644 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.000 fucking way to go with this. What do you guys 645 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:33.400 think as far as she loves me Omar, what does 646 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.599 that mean to you guys? 647 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:35.159 Hey? 648 00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:40.119 Yeah, I think it signifies just that it's another teller 649 00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.119 about just how he sees the world and how he 650 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:47.639 sees anybody else would look at him and his life, 651 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.639 and most people in the movie too and say what 652 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:56.519 a loser, but an absolute waste of a life, but 653 00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.360 he's determined not to see himself though way, He's determined 654 00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:05.199 not to have the values of the world. And he's 655 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:12.159 decided this metal, this prize, is of value, and I'm 656 00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:16.800 going to treat everything as less than that and get there. 657 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.480 And anybody else, including most of the I think they're 658 00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:26.119 probably a fair amount of spectators and competitors there, don't 659 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:28.199 give a shit about the metal. They just want to 660 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:33.079 make money. They're gamblers, they're whatever. They want to make money, 661 00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:34.960 they want to do that, and they don't care about 662 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.079 that kind of standing. But he's decided this is what's 663 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:39.920 worth while in his life. 664 00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:40.519 He's going to. 665 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:45.840 Sacrifice everything toward that. And yeah, at the end, when 666 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:49.840 she's so angry and disgusted with him, I think, I 667 00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:52.880 don't know, it seems more like a spin like him 668 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:57.400 going aha, I've moved her. I've got a real reaction 669 00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:59.199 out of her. She loves me. 670 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.320 Was he just nagging her in the parlance of our times. 671 00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.840 I don't know. I think it's insight into how he 672 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.119 sees the world and how he sees himself, and now 673 00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:15.719 he's determined to see himself, and it seems almost like 674 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:21.519 an arbitrary declaration, but it's one he's gonna probably live 675 00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:24.480 the rest of his life by whether they're together or not. 676 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:26.920 He'll have something in the back of his head saying, 677 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:30.440 I've got a woman who loves me. She's disgusted. We 678 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:32.760 don't spend any time together. I haven't seen her twenty 679 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.400 years or whatever, but she loves me. I decided she did, 680 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.079 so she does really pick up. 681 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.000 The Freudian big at all I have to say with 682 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.320 that all scene. But I think I don't typically look 683 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:48.480 at purses like pseudo vaginas. I don't pick up my 684 00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:56.639 person be like it'le pudani. I don't know, but I 685 00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.920 thought it was such a cool ending though. I loved 686 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:05.679 her speed. I love that performance. She and she's really 687 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:09.519 like the only she's not prim but she seems like 688 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.840 the most out of all the characters, especially if all 689 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.000 the women we meet, she's the one that's got probably 690 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.400 a good head on her shoulders. This is a she's 691 00:40:18.440 --> 00:40:21.679 the closest to normal. She's gonna beat. She really will 692 00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:26.599 be fine regardless and him tearing the head off. I 693 00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.880 was to admit. My initial director was like, good, crazy, 694 00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:34.360 Have I not seen enough animal cruelty in this fucking movie. 695 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:39.880 Good lord, dude, what is wrong with you? This poor animal, 696 00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:44.039 poor little white Lightning Justice for White Lightning the Chicken. 697 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.119 But I do love that they name that. That's a 698 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:50.840 nice little moon moonshine reference. Any George Jones fans out 699 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.639 there will immediately get but and then hands and it's 700 00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:58.440 almost like he's like chabbing its deceased beak and her 701 00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:01.199 palm of her hand because she looks like she's in pain. 702 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:04.559 It's so violent. It's not violent enough that he just 703 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.880 tore this dead towered head off its body and then 704 00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:10.519 he's got to force it in her hand. And I 705 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.039 loved her. I was like her ramping it. That's a 706 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.639 power move. That was a power move to me. I 707 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.719 didn't viewed as a sexual thing at all. I viewed 708 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:22.320 it as why you want to get crazy with me? Okay, 709 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:24.840 I'm still going to remain a lady. I am in 710 00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:28.199 charge of this situation. You're not the man I thought 711 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.400 you were. You probably never were, which I thought was 712 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:33.719 a great and really heavy line. And it also made 713 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:36.119 me wonder like how was he before all those Like 714 00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.639 how was he? I got to read the book, but 715 00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:41.000 do you really get that? I actually sent she both 716 00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:42.639 have read the book. Do you get a sense of 717 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.039 who he was before he got into cock fighting in 718 00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:47.000 the book or is it just pretty much you're end 719 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:53.400 too the cock fighting journey. He talked tor and he drank. 720 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.280 He makes him mention that the very beginning and the 721 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.920 voiceover and it's so close to the beginning of the 722 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.960 movie that I think it's all almost in danger of 723 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.480 being not heard, where he says something like I got 724 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.039 into race cars and I did this and I did that, 725 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.679 which of course makes some people think, oh, maybe he 726 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:12.400 was gto from two lane Blacktop and this is like 727 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:17.199 his punishment for talking too much as gto. Yeah, it's 728 00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:19.480 like he has tried all of these other things, but 729 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:22.840 they didn't have the drive to perfection that he thinks 730 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:26.639 that cockfighting has, and that he just knows that if 731 00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:29.639 you follow the rules and if you train your bird properly, 732 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.320 then you can win this thing, which it doesn't feel 733 00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:36.079 like for him at least this is me saying this. 734 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.119 I don't think that he admires what he considers the 735 00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:42.239 perfection of this and thinks that if he can do 736 00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.039 the best job, he will get the reward. It's the 737 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:48.239 American dream. Basically, it's if you do hard work and 738 00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.199 do everything that you're supposed to, say your prayers before 739 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:52.920 you go to bed, brush your teeth, all that stuff, 740 00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.400 you're going to get rewarded. And that's what he thinks, 741 00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.639 and he finally does in this, But even to that point, 742 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:03.400 I don't know what he's going to do after, like 743 00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.480 this whole mystery of what was he before and what 744 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.280 is he going to be after, because after this, I 745 00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:12.320 don't know if he's gonna bite chickens anymore or if 746 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:14.880 he's just going to become a judge. She talks about how, oh, 747 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.599 you can get paid one hundred and fifty dollars a 748 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:23.800 match if you are a set medal winner and they 749 00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:27.960 call you up to judge at any of these tournaments. Okay, great, 750 00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:30.840 but is that your life now? Is that how you're 751 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:36.800 doing everything? It's I love that it's ambiguous, though, as 752 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:40.000 you'll hear in the interview with Kayla Jennis in a 753 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.559 few minutes that there is mention of Frank Mansfield in 754 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:47.000 I Believe Miami Blues and that you find out that 755 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.119 he ended up getting married later on. I don't know 756 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.119 if it's with Mary Elizabeth. I think probably not, but yeah, 757 00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.039 it is funny that you hear little Frank's Mansfield and 758 00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:00.679 that will Efferd will make references. Is that nearly that 759 00:44:01.159 --> 00:44:04.280 Elmore Leonard connected universe. But you do get a little 760 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:06.440 nod here and there to other things. 761 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:10.519 But he also used the name Barnice. I know we 762 00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:12.679 said Bernice a few times in this, but it's in 763 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.559 the book. It's Berenice is the which is unusual name 764 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.559 at least sounds that way to me. I don't think 765 00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:25.480 I've ever met any Baronice. But she's also the name 766 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:30.320 of the lead female character in bernd Ora Cherisee. He 767 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.599 did maybe just have these names that he liked to use. 768 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:40.840 And something else that I think of the warn Oates 769 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:46.159 and Cockfighter. Frank Mansfield as liked the Chris Cooper character 770 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:51.639 and adaptation, this guy who's like obsessive about things and 771 00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:54.559 he masters them and then he's I'm done with that. 772 00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:57.119 Fuck fish. I was really into fish, and then I 773 00:44:57.239 --> 00:45:00.280 decided one day, fuckfish, and I'm moved on the you know, 774 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.559 the next thing, And that little thing at the beginning 775 00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:07.920 about the different things he had pursued and had mastered 776 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.840 and in the book, guitar playing really is part of 777 00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:16.519 that too, though it's very pretty sure said he goes 778 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:18.679 to grade lengths to say he never took a lesson, 779 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.119 He just picked it up and knew how to play. 780 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:27.039 And one of his memoirs, I was looking for a street, 781 00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:31.039 talking about his formative years, he said that his grandmother 782 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:38.119 was a big believer in inherited talents and assumed that 783 00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:42.119 someday Charles would be able to play the piano because 784 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.840 his mother had and so she kept the piano in 785 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:49.440 the house. He never really had any interest in it, 786 00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:53.480 but his grandmother really believed that someday he'll just be 787 00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:55.960 able to sit down and play that piano, not take 788 00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:59.000 lessons and things like that. But I think that's kind 789 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.360 of a through line a lot of Wilford's books. He 790 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:08.320 has these characters who just have an innate sense, especially 791 00:46:08.360 --> 00:46:12.639 something artistake or creative. I think of The Woman Chaser, 792 00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:17.039 where the Richard Hudson character just starts dancing ballet with 793 00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:21.039 his mother, who's of course a trained ballerina, but he's 794 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:24.960 just one day, yeah, I'm gonna do that, and he 795 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.519 takes up filmmaking, never having been to film school or 796 00:46:27.559 --> 00:46:29.840 anything like that, and it makes a perfect movie, right 797 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:34.039 I think these things are relined in a lot of 798 00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:38.719 Wilford's stuff, just people with these inborn talents, and they're 799 00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:41.239 not too interested in explaining that. 800 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:46.079 Jamie Figuerreias in the Burt orange Chersee, who paints that 801 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:50.920 perfect painting after the master has passed away. Yeah, I 802 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.440 forgot that I had opened. I wrote a piece about 803 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.280 Willaford years and years ago, and I opened it with 804 00:46:56.360 --> 00:46:59.719 a quote for the Bird Orange Chresee, which was Bernice 805 00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.599 and our main character talking and he says, a boy 806 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:06.360 who doesn't have a father around doesn't develop a super ego, 807 00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:09.440 and then she says that's silly. Super ego is only 808 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.920 a jargon word for conscience, and everybody's got a conscience, 809 00:47:13.239 --> 00:47:15.320 and he says, have it your way, per nice, and 810 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:18.440 I'm like, yeah, not all of these characters that Williford 811 00:47:18.519 --> 00:47:26.079 writes do have conscience. They can be even Junior. I 812 00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:29.480 can't remember Junior's last name, but Junior from Miami Blues, 813 00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:33.440 he had no conscience and just Yea was just out 814 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.880 for himself. And God, I love that. I loved all 815 00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:40.760 of these books, and just being able to revisit a 816 00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.079 Cockfighter for this a Cockfighter Journal, I was just tickled 817 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:47.119 to be able to read about that. And even inside 818 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:51.239 of Cockfighter you've got his personal recollections as Frank Mansfield, 819 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.320 where he's talking about being in the Philippines and watching 820 00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.519 cockfights over there, and I'm just like, Yeah, that really 821 00:47:56.519 --> 00:47:59.719 feels like a Woollerford thing, like I think Man's. I 822 00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:03.000 think Williford and all of his protagonists share a lot 823 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.239 of DNA, which may be unpleasant or not, but I 824 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:09.920 think that. You know, he was a terrific writer and 825 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:12.440 wrote about some really twisted characters. 826 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.239 Man, I know what I'm doing, well, get I need 827 00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:18.480 to seriously, why haven't I read it? It's ridiculous. What 828 00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:20.719 a wonderful world we live and we do have access 829 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.920 to so much great r One can never get bored. 830 00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:25.480 This is why I don't trust people that are like 831 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:28.719 I'm bored. Heck, get bored. There's so much to do, 832 00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:30.519 there's so much to see. 833 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.920 And it's so much easier to find his books now 834 00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:34.800 than it used to be. So many of them have 835 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:38.159 come back in print. I just picked up a new 836 00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:43.199 version of The Machine Ward eleven, which has the oh 837 00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:45.559 I can't even begin to pronounce the name of it, 838 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:49.559 but it's telling fortunes with chickens. So it's a precursor 839 00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:52.840 to Cockfighter in there. I know it s's with an A, 840 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.280 but I'm not even going to try to pronounce that word. 841 00:48:56.119 --> 00:49:00.440 Yeah. Also, this isn't aside, But how amazing was Harrydean 842 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:03.320 Stanton's style and this fill his character? 843 00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:08.679 Those shoes, he wears those two toed shoes because he 844 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:13.880 can't make up his mind. He's an ambivalent character, the 845 00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:17.360 guy that wears the belt in suspenders in Once Upon 846 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:19.880 a Time in the West. Yeah, how can I trust 847 00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:22.239 you if you can't even trust your own damn pants? 848 00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:23.559 Yeah. 849 00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:27.440 I have been my notes and I don't even know 850 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:29.360 what this phrase mean. That just came to me. I 851 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.840 was like, he's stressed, like at Kentucky pimp. Apparently in 852 00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.920 my brain that's what a Kentucky pip should look like. 853 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:39.440 Amazing, He's so good. I love Harry Dean. He is 854 00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:42.159 just so good. Can you imagine because those guys are 855 00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.880 probably sitting around playing guitar to each other, because war 856 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:47.760 notes could play in real life, and of course we 857 00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:50.440 know Harry Dean could play. Those guys probably just going 858 00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:57.119 back and forth, trading shots, singing songs. Oh man, oh man. 859 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:01.639 I how was there not like a tectonic plate shifted 860 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:08.480 with these men being together in the same space. It's amazing. Yeah, 861 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:12.960 this is such a cool film. And one thing that 862 00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:16.360 hits me is there's a line of dialogue about where 863 00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:19.920 he says the chicken has the brain size of a pee, 864 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.800 but they know how to fight. They have that instinct. 865 00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.800 And it's because I have, and this may be just 866 00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:30.840 my own theory, I feel like our species, humanity, we 867 00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:33.440 have a really bad tendency to we can justify any 868 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:34.599 sort of act of cruelty. 869 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:36.119 Doesn't mean we should. 870 00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:40.119 We don't. I'm just the general we obviously, But and 871 00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:45.280 because it's like these poor animals and this is but 872 00:50:45.320 --> 00:50:47.239 again it's like coming phillies are not judging the people 873 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:49.360 doing it, especially because this also was set in a 874 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.559 time period where it was we get whiffs that it's 875 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.679 starting to get illegal in the film, but it's still 876 00:50:56.320 --> 00:51:01.199 the racist senator. I feel bad for Omar. That's was terrible, 877 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:04.679 which means, of course I can easily believe him being 878 00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.239 a senator in real life. He just makes some nasty 879 00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:14.199 comment about Polish people or Omar's I'm third generation, he's 880 00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.519 had to like I just got off the boat. The 881 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:19.679 whole pageantry of a senator and his wife. Everybody does 882 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:23.519 it up and it's cockfighting. It's I don't know, it's 883 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:27.159 such a bizarre j exaposition. Yeah, that of the two 884 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:30.599 tone shoes of Harrding Samton. God bless for. 885 00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:35.880 As good a cast as it is. I'm delighted that 886 00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:39.559 Wilford himself held up so well. 887 00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:39.960 I was. 888 00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:42.880 I can't believe he didn't do more acting. I did 889 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.119 watch as Thunder and Lightning because he was in the cast. 890 00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:50.400 And yeah, it's just the one scene, just a real 891 00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:54.320 brief jammio. But like she was, was so great in 892 00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:59.199 that role. And I looked up in the book the 893 00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:04.239 way the Ed Middleton character is introduced. This is Frank 894 00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:07.920 Mansfield's inner monologue. He said, Ed Middleton is one of 895 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:11.159 my favorite people. He's in his early sixties. If I 896 00:52:11.320 --> 00:52:13.519 happen to live long enough, I want to be exactly 897 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:16.119 like him someday. He's a big man with a big 898 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:20.119 voice and a big paunch, except for a bumpy, bulbless 899 00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:23.880 nose with a few broken blood vessels here and there 900 00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:26.639 on his bright red surface. His face is smooth and 901 00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:29.840 white with shiny ligged look of the dog's favorite bone, 902 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:36.519 like he's describing him. So that's he wrote Backfighter came 903 00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:38.880 out the novel in sixty two. The movie didn't come 904 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.480 out till seventy four, and he was apparently not even 905 00:52:41.559 --> 00:52:44.559 supposed to be in it. Like cast very late in 906 00:52:44.599 --> 00:52:49.280 the process. Asked the Ed Meddleton character, and shit, sounds 907 00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:53.239 like he's describing himself right there. He had that bulbous 908 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:56.719 nose with broken blood vessels and the big paunch and 909 00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:02.000 the big voice. But he's somebody that comes cross very much, 910 00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:06.719 very likable, very easy to see someone like Frank admiring 911 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:11.039 him and wanting to be like that. Was he always 912 00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:14.960 intending to play this character someday or I don't know, 913 00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:18.119 but I think a great presence in the film, and 914 00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:20.079 I wish he'd done more acting. 915 00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:24.800 I really liked when Frank comes back and you can 916 00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:28.320 tell Middleton's pissed, like you called me on my bluff. 917 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.000 I didn't expect you to sell your house. 918 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:34.039 Leave him alone, just like he gets mad at his 919 00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:38.559 wife because he can't get mad of Frank. And by 920 00:53:38.559 --> 00:53:40.800 the way, the producer I was trying to think of 921 00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:43.559 is John Davison. We're going to take a break and 922 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:46.079 play an interview with Kayla Denise, author of the new 923 00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:50.960 book Akfight, A Fable of Failure. Right after these brief messages. 924 00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:57.239 Put on your swim fins, film fans, and take a 925 00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:59.519 deep breath, because you're about to go on a deep 926 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:02.440 dive into cinema with the Deep Dive Film Talk podcast. 927 00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:06.400 Whether you're a casual viewer or a season cinephile, this 928 00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:10.840 podcast is your guide to understanding mind bending cinema. Join 929 00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:13.360 us for deep dives into films that blur the lines 930 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:18.159 between reality and fantasy. No film degree required, just an 931 00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:21.760 open mind and a sense of adventure. Listen now on 932 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:28.440 weirding Way Media. Him the sounds to the echos. 933 00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:35.440 Oh, Kayla Jennings, It is great having you back in 934 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:37.440 the projection booth and I'm so excited to talk to 935 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:40.239 you about your new book all about cock Fighter. Please 936 00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:42.920 tell me how did this book project come about? Because 937 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:44.760 I know you've been working on it for a long time. 938 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:47.920 I became really obsessed with the film back where Anchor 939 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:50.320 Bay first put it out on DVD, which would have 940 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.960 been like two thousand or two thousand and one. They'd 941 00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:57.280 been doing a bunch of Monte Hellman reissues, and so 942 00:54:57.400 --> 00:55:00.559 I've become obsessed with the character of Frank Mansfield based 943 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:02.320 on the film. So it was before I had read 944 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:04.840 the book, but I didn't really decide to start doing 945 00:55:04.880 --> 00:55:07.400 a book about it until. 946 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:09.239 About twenty fifteen. 947 00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:13.400 And originally the idea just started as it was like 948 00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:16.920 one of those labels I think it was like God, 949 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.639 not Midnight Marquis. It was like one of the British 950 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.199 labels that does the books that are just about one 951 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:25.400 movie twenty five pages. Wasn't Devil's Advocates, but it was 952 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:28.519 like one of the other ones that Neil Snowden is 953 00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.599 the editor. Anyways, they were doing a call out for 954 00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:36.199 pitches for their book line, so I said, oh, I 955 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:38.119 know a movie I'd want to do a book about 956 00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:43.480 class fighters, and they rejected it. And partially they may 957 00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:46.480 reject it because the movies can't screen in the UK, 958 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:50.320 and so if you have a UK specific book label 959 00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:53.519 of classics, they obviously can't say some So I could 960 00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:56.599 never pitch to the BFI as a BFI classic if 961 00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:58.239 they're not allowed to even play it there. 962 00:55:58.880 --> 00:55:59.239 So it was. 963 00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:03.039 Limited where I could even pitch that idea. But then 964 00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:06.239 I just realized that if I did get a deal 965 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:09.199 like that, I would be stuck with a book that 966 00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:11.960 had a handful of pictures that was all black and white. 967 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.440 I would have any control over the paper stock. And 968 00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:18.559 I'm way too eat. Maybe I'll just do it myself, 969 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:21.760 and that way I can just do it however I want. 970 00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:25.119 And so I didn't try very hard to find another 971 00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:28.920 publisher for it. I just decided to start working on it, 972 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.599 and then in twenty sixteen was when I did my 973 00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.239 first interviews for it. Although I had stayed at Monte 974 00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.960 Hellman's Airbnb before I had ever decided to do a 975 00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:40.880 book of a clockwriter. 976 00:56:41.079 --> 00:56:42.760 It was like twenty fourteen. 977 00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:45.880 So when my book Kid Power came out, I was 978 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:49.519 in l La promoting that book and I was going 979 00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:50.920 to be there for nine days and I had to 980 00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:56.480 stay somewhere. And my friend Donna McCrae had stayed at 981 00:56:56.519 --> 00:57:00.199 Monty Helman's Airbnb and was raving about it, and I 982 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.119 was like, oh my god, he has an Airbnb. And 983 00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:04.079 I looked it up on Airbnb and there it was. 984 00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:08.039 It was like one picture and he's come stay with me. 985 00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:10.400 I loved talking about movies with people, and I was like, 986 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:12.639 oh my god, this is like a dream. So I 987 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:16.079 went and I stayed there and he made me breakfast 988 00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:19.119 every day. He made me the same breakfast every day. 989 00:57:19.159 --> 00:57:21.840 I was not allowed to deviate in any way from 990 00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:25.719 the menu that he had prepared. I wanted scrambled eggs 991 00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:28.320 instead of fried eggs, and he's like, no, scrambled eggs 992 00:57:28.320 --> 00:57:28.960 are bad for you. 993 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:29.599 You have to eat this. 994 00:57:29.800 --> 00:57:32.239 I don't know how fride egg is better than I 995 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:35.480 scrambled egg but anyways, So it was funny. 996 00:57:35.679 --> 00:57:37.599 We had his way of doing things. 997 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:42.079 He had his routines, and him having these people coming 998 00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:46.280 through the house as guests work like his social life 999 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.519 in a way. He didn't seem to go out very much. 1000 00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.960 So it was like that was his social life, which 1001 00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:54.400 people come to him. He would talk about. 1002 00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:55.760 Movies except that. 1003 00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:59.000 So I was there and he has this big poster 1004 00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.599 of two lank blacktop in the kitchen and he starts 1005 00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:05.440 talking about it somehow, and I said, oh, my favorite 1006 00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:08.920 movie of yours is Cockfighter and he just goes, worst 1007 00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:09.840 picture I ever made? 1008 00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:11.519 And I said, worse than. 1009 00:58:11.440 --> 00:58:15.559 Silent Knight, Deadly Night three, And he says, I liked 1010 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:17.920 Silent Night, Deadly Night greet Silent Night, Deadly Night. 1011 00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:19.880 I've got to do everything I wanted. 1012 00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.239 I got to make the movie I wanted to make, 1013 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.159 whether or not you like it, but I never got 1014 00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:25.559 to dog that. 1015 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:27.760 There's the script, re visions were stopped. 1016 00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:30.760 I never felt like I really got to finish it, 1017 00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:33.639 and so I just think it's like my worst movie 1018 00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:36.920 because of that. So then after that, it seemed like 1019 00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:41.159 he didn't He was definitely way more quiet around me 1020 00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:44.079 after that because there was another guest staying in the 1021 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:46.320 house and he would just laughed or all the time, 1022 00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:48.679 and then with me he was really quiet, and I 1023 00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:51.840 felt like he had just lost respect for me or 1024 00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.440 gone I had like no taste in movies or something, 1025 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:57.639 because this was my favorite movie of his, and obviously, 1026 00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.519 like I kept trying to wear them down. I was 1027 00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:03.239 there nine more days, and I also interviewed him like 1028 00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:06.760 several times officially, like after that, because I did not 1029 00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:09.400 interview him formally while I was there because I didn't 1030 00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:10.320 yet know I was. 1031 00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:11.400 Going to be doing a book. 1032 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.960 You know, eventually got to the point where, you know, 1033 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:18.000 my last interview with him, he was just like, it'll 1034 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:21.159 never be my favorite, and that was as good as 1035 00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:24.360 it was going to get But yeah, so started in 1036 00:59:24.360 --> 00:59:27.840 this backwards way where I became obsessed with the film 1037 00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:30.599 for a long time. I went to clock fites for real, 1038 00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:34.960 I stayed at Manti Hellman's house, and then a couple 1039 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.480 of years after that, then I decided I was going 1040 00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:39.639 to try to do a book about it, and I 1041 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:42.440 was also losing people a lot while the book was 1042 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:45.559 being written. It took me so long to write because 1043 00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:49.599 I work full time and I'm working on all those 1044 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:52.199 other things, and so if there's nobody like paying you 1045 00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:55.199 to view something, it's really hard to prioritize it. But 1046 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.440 it always ends up being the last priority. So yeah, 1047 00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:01.280 so I was losing people. People were away that worked 1048 01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.119 on the film. Carried Dean Stanton died like a month 1049 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:06.159 before I was supposed to interview him, Like I was 1050 01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:08.960 coming to LA to interview him and they died like 1051 01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.920 a month before, So stuff like that. And then one 1052 01:00:11.960 --> 01:00:14.760 of the casting agents, John Phillips, like he didn't want 1053 01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:17.639 to do an interview. He's like many people I found 1054 01:00:17.719 --> 01:00:20.400 just didn't like the movie, like people who worked on 1055 01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.519 it and didn't want to talk about it. And I 1056 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:26.239 couldn't get a whole lot of elaboration as to why, 1057 01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:29.239 whether it was like because of the clock fighting or what. 1058 01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:34.000 But Don Phillips, the casting agent, was also like Michael 1059 01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:36.599 Chinnitch and John Phillips both cast it together, and they 1060 01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:38.360 both had nothing to say about it. They were just 1061 01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:42.480 like least favorite movie of anything I worked on. When 1062 01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:45.519 they went on to do like Fast Times and John 1063 01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.119 Hughes movies and all kinds of stuff like I think 1064 01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:51.320 the Days in confused. Why of them did too so 1065 01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:54.559 much bigger things, much bigger and more important things than 1066 01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:58.920 what they considered Clockwriter to be. But anyway, so yeah, 1067 01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:01.400 so that's like how it all happened. 1068 01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:04.360 When I love the way that you structure the book 1069 01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:07.880 and the way that you sectioned off into so many 1070 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:11.880 of the people that were behind it, the actual sport 1071 01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.719 of cockfighting. You go into so much detail on that 1072 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:18.039 that I never would have known otherwise it was super educational. 1073 01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.400 Well that's great because their eyes actually so much more 1074 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:24.920 detail that I could have gone into. It was just 1075 01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:28.320 getting bought down with like too much detail. So I 1076 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:30.519 kept in enough so that people could get a sense 1077 01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:34.079 of what some of the things were called and what 1078 01:01:34.159 --> 01:01:38.719 the rationale was behind certain things. But then also what's 1079 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.840 really important I think the story of Cockwriters book and 1080 01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:45.400 the film is the kind of history of the sport 1081 01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:48.559 and the way that history is still held up by 1082 01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:51.239 a lot of the people that participate in it as 1083 01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:55.320 like an important connection they have to their past. 1084 01:01:56.039 --> 01:01:58.800 Well then also just the idea of the Southern Gothic 1085 01:01:59.079 --> 01:02:02.880 in how does cock fighting play into Southern culture, And 1086 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.920 even when you get into the role of women and cockfighting, 1087 01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:10.719 or the role of African Americans and cockfighting, it just 1088 01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:14.360 you dig so deep and have taught me so much 1089 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:17.119 more about that than I ever knew. I thought I 1090 01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:17.760 needed to. 1091 01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:22.320 Know, probably more than you needed to know. But yet 1092 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:25.559 obviously the thing about women is super interesting to me 1093 01:02:26.079 --> 01:02:28.840 because it was like, because being a woman having bonte 1094 01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:33.360 cock fights, I experienced the thing of being a rarity 1095 01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:36.280 in the audience. Like there's a lot of women at 1096 01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:39.159 cock fights, but they are working at cock fights. They're 1097 01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.480 working at the concession stands, they're working at the ticket booth, 1098 01:02:42.519 --> 01:02:45.639 they're working at the merch tables. So there's like all 1099 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:47.960 the kinds of women that are put to work in 1100 01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.639 the cock fighting world, but there weren't a whole ton 1101 01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:54.039 of them just sitting there and enjoying the sport or 1102 01:02:54.039 --> 01:02:58.079 making bets or whatever. That said, the audiences were relatively 1103 01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:03.480 diverse in terms of ages classes. There was one fight 1104 01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:06.880 I saw where it was like kid, like a little kid, 1105 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:10.239 and then like his dad and then the grandpa all 1106 01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:13.719 fought the same day, and the little kid was like 1107 01:03:14.000 --> 01:03:16.800 I don't know, maybe twelve at the most, and it 1108 01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:20.119 was like this whole family talk writers. But yeah, the 1109 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:24.119 thing about women was just important to me because in 1110 01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:27.800 the book and in the movie, and actually in Charles 1111 01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:29.960 Wilford's books, Like I have not read every book that 1112 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:31.719 he wrote, but I've probably read like twenty of his 1113 01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:33.199 books now, and. 1114 01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:38.719 Women are just like an annoyance. They're just like in. 1115 01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:43.679 The way nagging or annoying the men. And obviously in 1116 01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:45.960 the film they probably directed by that a bit by 1117 01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.639 adding a bit more character from Mary Elizabeth, like making 1118 01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:51.920 her a little bit more sassy than she is in 1119 01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:54.840 the book and stuff and giving her a little bit 1120 01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:59.000 of humor and stuff. But overall it was like, yeah, 1121 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:02.639 I just was interesting did in this kind of absence 1122 01:04:03.079 --> 01:04:07.199 and curious about whether that reflected the real clock fighting world. 1123 01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:08.800 And then of. 1124 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:11.800 Course through researching that, I found that so many of 1125 01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:15.000 the editors of the cock fighting magazines were all women, 1126 01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:18.960 so that was super interesting. So I feel like in 1127 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:22.079 the future that's something I actually want to look into more. 1128 01:04:22.280 --> 01:04:24.880 I want to do a bit more to document these 1129 01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:26.199 women's careers. 1130 01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:29.880 It makes total sense that there's a magazine dedicated to cockfighting, 1131 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:33.039 or there was, but it just never even crossed my radar. 1132 01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:35.920 I was like, what, there was a magazine dedicated. 1133 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.400 Yeah, there's several. Wow, there's like a Feathered Warrior, Britt 1134 01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:42.639 and Steel the game Cock. Those are the three I 1135 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:44.559 know of. There's probably more, but. 1136 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:47.480 Well, and speaking of people that we lost along the way, 1137 01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:50.599 it was great to read Roger Corman and some of 1138 01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:53.239 his thoughts about the movie and his history with it 1139 01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:54.559 as well. That was delightful. 1140 01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:58.119 Yeah, I took Roger was super helpful. I would say 1141 01:04:58.119 --> 01:05:02.599 I interviewed Roger, I would email him and whenever I 1142 01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:05.360 just had odd questions. So there are lots of times 1143 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:07.400 where it wasn't even like a formal interview. It just 1144 01:05:07.800 --> 01:05:10.079 some question that I didn't have the answer to, So 1145 01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:13.000 I would send an email to his assistant or whatever 1146 01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:15.239 I didn't have his email, and then his assistant would 1147 01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:17.679 get back to me. With the answers and stuff. So 1148 01:05:17.800 --> 01:05:21.960 he was just helpful along the way, and you could 1149 01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:24.440 tell that he was, like, despite the fact that the 1150 01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:27.639 movie flopped and that it's famously the only movie he 1151 01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:29.320 ever lost money on and stuff like that, you could 1152 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:31.519 tell liked the movie a lot and thought it was 1153 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:34.400 a good movie and that he thought it was shane 1154 01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:39.760 that it never hit, not financially, not because he was oh, 1155 01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:42.079 I wish it made money. Yes, I'm sure he wished 1156 01:05:42.079 --> 01:05:44.039 it made money, but he just thought it was a 1157 01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:46.280 shame that it was a good movie that just didn't 1158 01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:49.559 find its audience, and so he was really supportive. But 1159 01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:53.360 anything that would celebrate popfire, so that was great. 1160 01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:56.199 And the ways that he tried to save it by 1161 01:05:56.599 --> 01:06:00.079 having it retaught, or the trailers and the titles and 1162 01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:03.199 what you had four different titles it was under at one. 1163 01:06:03.079 --> 01:06:06.079 Point, yeah, well it had so it was like Cockfighter 1164 01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:09.800 and then it was. So it's interesting because he claims 1165 01:06:09.840 --> 01:06:12.440 these titles were never actually officially used, but there are 1166 01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.000 ads that show the titles of Wild Drifter and Gambling 1167 01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:19.639 Men in some of the different regions, So he thinks 1168 01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:23.199 that those titles were just like tested serve like they 1169 01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:26.119 surveyed people asking which title do you think is better, 1170 01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:29.119 and he thought that those titles were never actually used 1171 01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:33.360 on the prints or anything, but apparently they were like 1172 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:37.480 occasionally on some prints a few months after it was 1173 01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:40.280 released as Cockfighter, and then Born to Kill was the 1174 01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:43.840 title that stuck, and that one came into use. I 1175 01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:46.000 think it was March of the next year. So it 1176 01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:49.039 was like they talk about it anecdotally, like when you're 1177 01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:53.239 interviewing people, their timelines are really shaky. They'll talk about 1178 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:56.440 something like it was immediate or a long time ago 1179 01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:59.760 or whatever, but it's actually the opposite sometimes, so I 1180 01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.920 think when they tell a story anecdotally, it's like Cockfire flop. 1181 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:04.960 We knew on the Friday it was failure. By Monday 1182 01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:07.320 we had a whole new campaign and it was Born 1183 01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:09.880 to Kill whatever it's no. Five months later it was 1184 01:07:09.880 --> 01:07:12.559 Born to Yes, I'm sure they knew right away that 1185 01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:14.840 it was going a flop, but the new ad campaign 1186 01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:18.880 was not in place the next week. It was like 1187 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:22.519 many months later, and it did do better as Born 1188 01:07:22.559 --> 01:07:26.679 to Kill, but not, as Roger said, not appreciately. 1189 01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:29.159 So I know you spent a lot of years working 1190 01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:30.840 on this. It also sounds like you put a lot 1191 01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:33.320 of miles on your car or on your frequent flyers 1192 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.760 to go around in all these different places too. 1193 01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:40.159 Now I'm like, I do everything to get the miles. 1194 01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:42.840 I could never figure out. I'm like, how do people 1195 01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:46.559 get these like free flights everywhere, air miles loyal always 1196 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:49.280 to the same airline because I was like, I just 1197 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:52.920 go expedient and buy whatever is the cheapest usually, and 1198 01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:53.920 you can't rack up. 1199 01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:54.800 Them miles that way. 1200 01:07:54.840 --> 01:07:57.920 So anyway, No, I did not get any benefit from 1201 01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:01.519 traveling around, but I did travel a lot, Like I 1202 01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:05.400 went to Charles Wilfrid's archive several times, which is amazing. 1203 01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:06.239 It's just amazing. 1204 01:08:06.719 --> 01:08:09.280 When you go into any archive like that, you're just like, 1205 01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:12.679 oh my God, Like it's you're so grateful that people 1206 01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:15.960 take care to document this stuff and just keep it 1207 01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:19.279 because some little thing that like two people in the 1208 01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:22.079 world are going to care about. It's that's the thing 1209 01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:25.079 that has all the answers or whatever. And whenever you 1210 01:08:25.159 --> 01:08:29.399 go into an archive, you appreciate like how shitty Google 1211 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:33.000 search are. But you're just like people who rely on 1212 01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:35.920 Google searches to do all their research for everything, And 1213 01:08:35.960 --> 01:08:38.880 then you're like, oh my God like when you Yeah, 1214 01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:42.079 it's like when you're actually handling these like old documents 1215 01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:46.199 and manuscripts and be able to see. Within the case 1216 01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:50.119 of Charles Wilfert, his not only revisions to the script 1217 01:08:50.199 --> 01:08:53.239 and stuff, but also earlier short stories where he has 1218 01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:56.079 the character of Frank Mansfield and he's like trying to 1219 01:08:56.600 --> 01:08:59.239 work out what he wants to did with this character. 1220 01:08:59.800 --> 01:09:03.920 And then also his step son, Stephen Hooker, wrote some 1221 01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:06.880 songs for Copwriter because in the book of Pock Fighter, 1222 01:09:07.159 --> 01:09:09.119 he has this whole detour where he's trying to raise 1223 01:09:09.199 --> 01:09:12.039 money and he's playing the guitar in the nightclub and 1224 01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:14.159 he has these three songs and they're like the only 1225 01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:17.600 songs he knows. He's made up these songs himself, and 1226 01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:19.720 he just plays the same songs over and over again. 1227 01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:24.560 And his step son actually wrote song of these songs 1228 01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:27.920 and they have the recordings of them in this archive. 1229 01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:28.479 Wow. 1230 01:09:28.520 --> 01:09:32.680 So I was actually gonna ask him for permission to 1231 01:09:32.680 --> 01:09:34.920 see if I could give them to you for your podcast. 1232 01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:36.399 Oh, that would be amazing. 1233 01:09:37.159 --> 01:09:37.439 Yeah. 1234 01:09:37.479 --> 01:09:40.439 So he feels like he's embarrassed of them, like they're 1235 01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:43.479 really amateurish and whatever, because I had asked him could 1236 01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:45.399 I give it to somebody who's like a press scoop 1237 01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:48.279 or something, and he's like, I don't know so, but 1238 01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:52.159 maybe he would allow it for the podcast or something. 1239 01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:56.079 But he said Charles Wilford actually wrote the lyrics, because 1240 01:09:56.079 --> 01:09:58.840 they do have lyrics, because the idea is that these 1241 01:09:58.880 --> 01:10:01.239 songs were written by Frank Book four G had his 1242 01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:05.159 Bow of Silence, and there's both there's lyric versions and 1243 01:10:05.239 --> 01:10:10.359 instrumental versions. But yeah, it's just it's so interesting because 1244 01:10:10.399 --> 01:10:14.000 there's so much world building happening that you can see 1245 01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:18.000 in the archive, and it goes even as cock leg 1246 01:10:18.800 --> 01:10:21.239 just the other references, like in the book The Shark 1247 01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:25.560 Infested Custard, the very opening conversation is a conversation with 1248 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:29.039 these four guys sitting around talking about two lang blacked right, 1249 01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:33.479 and it's clearly a reference to this experience that Charles 1250 01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:36.399 Wilford had. I also feel like, I don't know if 1251 01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:41.239 have you read that book arts that scene. When I 1252 01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:43.720 was reading it, I kept thinking, I don't want this 1253 01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:45.680 just reminds me so much of the scene at the 1254 01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:49.640 beginning of Depth Crew of the Women's and around talking 1255 01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:52.880 about like vanishing point or whatever. I was like that 1256 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:55.840 scene in depth group just seems like this scene. I 1257 01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:58.720 was like, I wonder if scared you know, read this 1258 01:10:58.920 --> 01:11:02.399 and then wrote that see based on it. But there's 1259 01:11:02.920 --> 01:11:06.479 my point is just that Charles Wilford had all these 1260 01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:11.199 connections all throughout his career before Clockwriter and after Clockwriter, 1261 01:11:11.560 --> 01:11:15.359 like linking to it, and so I just found that 1262 01:11:16.119 --> 01:11:18.840 that was my very last afterward in my book is 1263 01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:23.279 called clock Fighter Aspires to Endlessness, And it's partially because 1264 01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:26.000 of that, and partially that's a tribute to Monty in 1265 01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:28.399 the sense it's a riff on a line from Sigfried 1266 01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:32.279 crack Hour's Theory of Film is like a chapter that's 1267 01:11:32.319 --> 01:11:35.119 called something like that, not a boat clock. But yeah, 1268 01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:38.640 so I felt like the world building that Wilford was 1269 01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:41.279 doing was really interesting. And then also just the fact 1270 01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:43.880 this is a spoiler, so you may want to cut 1271 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:46.880 it out, but just the fact that in Miami Blues 1272 01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:51.560 at the very end she marries Frank Mansfield. It's just 1273 01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:54.960 little things like that that are like really interesting. 1274 01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:57.760 Yeah, you're talking to the other person who would love 1275 01:11:57.800 --> 01:12:00.720 to go to the Wiliford archives. So I that's definitely 1276 01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:02.760 now on my bucket list is to make my way 1277 01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:03.239 down there. 1278 01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:06.119 Yeah, they even have a copy of the books that 1279 01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:08.439 was I can't remember. I think it was side Swipe, 1280 01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:11.760 and it was like somebody bought a hardcover of Sideswipe 1281 01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:14.199 and thought they hated it so much they got it 1282 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:18.239 like six times and they sent it back to him 1283 01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:19.960 with a note saying, this is what I think of 1284 01:12:19.960 --> 01:12:23.920 your shitty book. And that's in the archive, the book 1285 01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:24.880 that they'll shot. 1286 01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:29.000 Up, and you get to talk to Betsy as well. 1287 01:12:29.640 --> 01:12:33.439 Oh yeah, Betsy was like the hero of this project 1288 01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:37.279 to me. She saved me from despair at the last moment. 1289 01:12:37.520 --> 01:12:40.880 She gave me access to use the stuff from the archive. 1290 01:12:41.039 --> 01:12:44.920 Because obviously if you read other books about Monty Hellman, 1291 01:12:45.239 --> 01:12:49.119 they will reference these documents, Like Charles Tatum has a 1292 01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:51.439 book like in French where he references some of the 1293 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:53.399 letters for Our New World and stuff like that, but 1294 01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:56.479 he doesn't show them. He just like references them, and 1295 01:12:56.520 --> 01:12:58.880 I think at one point he types out like what 1296 01:12:58.960 --> 01:12:59.239 one of. 1297 01:12:59.239 --> 01:12:59.960 The letters says. 1298 01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:03.159 But she let me actually use the letters and print 1299 01:13:03.199 --> 01:13:05.760 them in the book, which I also thought was important 1300 01:13:05.760 --> 01:13:08.800 because you get to see what thoughtful notes Roger Forman 1301 01:13:09.119 --> 01:13:15.119 gives because whether it's him or his assistant Francis dole Or, 1302 01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:17.880 who was known as Francis Kimbro at the time. So 1303 01:13:18.039 --> 01:13:20.159 in some cases it's Roger giving the notes, in other 1304 01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:23.199 cases it's Francis giving the notes, but obviously in consultation 1305 01:13:23.279 --> 01:13:28.159 with Roger. But they give such thoughtful and respectful notes 1306 01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:30.920 to Charles Wilford about ways that you can work on 1307 01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:33.640 the script, and I just feel you don't get that 1308 01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:37.479 from studio executives and stuff and agents and producer. Everybody 1309 01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:42.159 just gives such crappy, thoughtless, clueless notes now, and so 1310 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:45.239 I thought it was really important to print those letters 1311 01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:48.560 in full and have people see what kind of a 1312 01:13:48.680 --> 01:13:51.800 creative producer Roger Corman was. That he was not just 1313 01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:55.920 a money minded producer, even though he obviously had skills 1314 01:13:56.000 --> 01:13:59.600 with money and was very good at business. But he 1315 01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:02.560 was kind of rare mix of somebody who was both. 1316 01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:06.720 He was like an incredibly creative and intellectual person but 1317 01:14:06.920 --> 01:14:10.680 also very good with money and business, so he really 1318 01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:12.600 was like a unique individual. 1319 01:14:13.239 --> 01:14:14.359 Well, it was great. 1320 01:14:14.159 --> 01:14:16.319 Too that you were able to print a couple pages 1321 01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:18.560 from the script as well and show some of the 1322 01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:19.640 stuff that had been cut out. 1323 01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:22.800 That to me was like the other thing going to 1324 01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:26.000 the archive was finding first of all, the earliest versions 1325 01:14:26.039 --> 01:14:28.720 of the script where it still has the character of 1326 01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:31.279 Bear Nice in it, so that was an important thing. 1327 01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:34.279 But then the fact that there were these two identical 1328 01:14:34.359 --> 01:14:38.279 scripts and the only difference was on one of them. 1329 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:43.159 They're like an additional two pages with this alterprinate ending 1330 01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:48.079 that is clearly more of an exploitation film ending. And 1331 01:14:48.920 --> 01:14:51.640 I was like, wow, I've never even heard of this ending. 1332 01:14:52.279 --> 01:14:53.920 And I didn't know if he ever showed it to 1333 01:14:54.000 --> 01:14:56.119 Rodrick Buurman. I didn't know if he offered it as 1334 01:14:56.119 --> 01:15:02.560 an option of a more traditional exploitation film ending or what, 1335 01:15:03.399 --> 01:15:05.720 but either way, it was there in the archive, and 1336 01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:08.760 I was like, this is really cool, So Betsy, let 1337 01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:11.760 me use it. And then the other thing she was 1338 01:15:11.920 --> 01:15:14.640 happy that I wanted to use was the letter from 1339 01:15:14.720 --> 01:15:19.359 Kate Millet, the postcard from Kate Millet, who, for people 1340 01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:22.319 who don't know it, was like a rock star feminist 1341 01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:26.319 in the early seventies and she was like a household 1342 01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:29.640 name at the time, and Charles Wilford wrote for a 1343 01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.039 letter saying that he wanted to send her his new book, 1344 01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:37.079 and he had this theory that women were raping men 1345 01:15:37.159 --> 01:15:42.119 with foods. Obviously, I go into detail about that in 1346 01:15:42.159 --> 01:15:44.119 the book. But then she just wrote him back this 1347 01:15:44.239 --> 01:15:50.439 like funny letter saying keep meeting. And I just thought 1348 01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:53.279 that was so funny that he would send a letter 1349 01:15:53.319 --> 01:15:57.960 to Kate Mirllett. It's like radical feminist. But yeah, so 1350 01:15:58.319 --> 01:16:01.960 Betsy is great. I'm pretty sure you've spoken to Betsy 1351 01:16:02.079 --> 01:16:03.880 before too. I think you were the one that was 1352 01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:06.000 really saying you should really get in touch with Betsy, 1353 01:16:06.600 --> 01:16:09.079 and I was like really intimidated to at first, but 1354 01:16:09.119 --> 01:16:11.279 then when I talked to her, she was just so amazing, 1355 01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:14.359 and she's so funny. She's you can tell she has 1356 01:16:14.399 --> 01:16:19.399 this kind of like straight based humor, like really fighting humor. 1357 01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:22.960 They must have been quite a pair together. But yeah, 1358 01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:25.960 so she really helped out a ton with the book, 1359 01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:27.319 which was awesome. 1360 01:16:28.119 --> 01:16:30.960 It was nice to read some of the New World guys, 1361 01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:36.560 they Parkish and Dante and t those guys just superstars 1362 01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:40.359 and just their role in the making up the campaigns 1363 01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:42.520 or the editing in the film. Wonderful to read some 1364 01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:45.119 of those stories, especially the Arkish and Dante's stuff. They 1365 01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:47.640 must have been together right when you're interviewing them, because 1366 01:16:48.279 --> 01:16:49.000 comedy team. 1367 01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:53.600 Yeah, yeah, that's what it was like. That was the 1368 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:56.399 first section of the book that really had a world 1369 01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:58.479 history element to it because I didn't go in like 1370 01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:01.399 bamily back and forth between them, and then I ended 1371 01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:04.039 up doing that a little bit in earlier parts of 1372 01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:07.000 the book just to balance it out were but yeah, 1373 01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:09.560 it was really great talk. Whenever you've interviewed people together, 1374 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:12.840 it's fun because they just make they make each other last, 1375 01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:17.159 and they make each other remember stuff, and yeah, so 1376 01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:18.560 that was like super fun. 1377 01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:19.720 They clearly had. 1378 01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:22.479 So much fun in those days, like editing the trailers 1379 01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:25.880 and coming up with the marketing campaigns with John Davison 1380 01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:29.920 and stuff. So yeah, it was a real thrill getting 1381 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.399 to talk to the people who were involved in the 1382 01:17:32.520 --> 01:17:36.319 kind of post production release of the film. The harder part, 1383 01:17:36.399 --> 01:17:40.840 obviously was the set the making of the film. Trying 1384 01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:43.600 to find every because so many people had died who 1385 01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:46.479 were on the who were in the film, or had 1386 01:17:46.520 --> 01:17:49.640 important roles on the film, that like trying to bring 1387 01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:53.159 that to life was a challenge, and luckily I had 1388 01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:55.119 a couple of people who had very good memories of 1389 01:17:55.159 --> 01:17:59.279 a lot of stuff, namely production manager Peter Kornberg and 1390 01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:02.840 John Wall who was like the first steady, so they 1391 01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:06.319 remembered stuff really well. But yeah, that was like and 1392 01:18:06.359 --> 01:18:09.640 then at the very last minute, I got the interview 1393 01:18:09.680 --> 01:18:13.760 with Earl mac roush. That was insane because I'd been 1394 01:18:13.800 --> 01:18:16.760 trying to reach him for five years. And then the 1395 01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:19.319 book was supposed to go to print. This is like 1396 01:18:19.399 --> 01:18:21.560 a miracle. Okay, So the book is supposed to go 1397 01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:25.279 to print on Tuesday night because on Wednesday morning, my 1398 01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:29.600 designers leaving town on a victation. So he's about to 1399 01:18:29.840 --> 01:18:32.840 deliver the files to the printer and then he realizes, 1400 01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:35.800 oh shit, something went wrong with all the footnotes and like, 1401 01:18:35.840 --> 01:18:37.520 what do you mean? He's like, all the footnotes have 1402 01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:40.680 gone totally out of order. I was like what and 1403 01:18:40.720 --> 01:18:44.520 he was like, and I have to leave. I don't 1404 01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:46.920 have time to Pikes, like I have to get on plane. 1405 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:49.119 And I was like, oh my god, like we're going 1406 01:18:49.199 --> 01:18:52.000 to miss our printed line. And I already had Fantasia 1407 01:18:52.039 --> 01:18:56.199 set up to do a screening there, so I was like, 1408 01:18:56.840 --> 01:18:59.439 there's no way, We're just that's it. Book's not gonna 1409 01:18:59.479 --> 01:19:01.600 be ready time. I'm gonna have to cancel the event. 1410 01:19:02.319 --> 01:19:04.319 And so I contacted the printer. I let them know 1411 01:19:04.319 --> 01:19:07.439 the book wouldn't be in until the next week after 1412 01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:11.159 the guy got back, and so I was super bummed out. 1413 01:19:11.199 --> 01:19:14.199 I'm just thinking, God, I can't believe, like stupid footnotes 1414 01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:17.119 are making me miss my own book launch. So I 1415 01:19:17.159 --> 01:19:19.039 wake up the next morning, I'm all bummed out. The 1416 01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:21.039 first thing I get is this, like, hang on my 1417 01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:25.560 phone and it's Earl Rowse. It's his nickname is Mac. 1418 01:19:26.159 --> 01:19:28.079 I've just been reading it so long that I always 1419 01:19:28.079 --> 01:19:31.000 say Earl my grouse, but anyway, it's him, and he's 1420 01:19:31.079 --> 01:19:32.560 just like I heard, He've been trying to reach me. 1421 01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:34.800 And I was like, oh my god. It was like 1422 01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:37.800 and so if the book had gone to print when 1423 01:19:37.800 --> 01:19:38.439 it was supposed to. 1424 01:19:38.640 --> 01:19:39.920 It would have that interview in it. 1425 01:19:39.960 --> 01:19:40.399 Wow. 1426 01:19:40.760 --> 01:19:42.439 So it was like, I said, can you do an 1427 01:19:42.479 --> 01:19:45.720 interview like in the next two days and he was 1428 01:19:45.760 --> 01:19:48.239 like yes. So we did it and I got it 1429 01:19:48.279 --> 01:19:51.279 in the book and it was yes. And to me, 1430 01:19:51.319 --> 01:19:53.880 it was great because it cleared up so many questions 1431 01:19:53.960 --> 01:19:58.319 I had about the script revisions, because I had heard 1432 01:19:59.079 --> 01:20:03.359 from both frien Ancest Dole and Monty Hellman that Mac 1433 01:20:03.479 --> 01:20:07.159 had done revisions on the script, but nobody could remember 1434 01:20:07.399 --> 01:20:10.399 what revisions he had done or when he had done 1435 01:20:10.439 --> 01:20:13.119 the revisions, like what the timeline was, and the way 1436 01:20:13.159 --> 01:20:15.520 that Francis spoke about it was almost as though they 1437 01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:19.039 were on set at the same time, in different hotel rooms, 1438 01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:22.479 working on different scripts. So there were so many questions 1439 01:20:22.520 --> 01:20:25.640 I had, and Monty even remember, especially as it got 1440 01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:29.239 to the point where as I got closer to the 1441 01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:31.159 end of the book and as he got older, and 1442 01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:33.520 he'd also had like an accident at some point and 1443 01:20:33.560 --> 01:20:36.479 had some brain surgery and stuff. But it was like, 1444 01:20:37.119 --> 01:20:39.399 as you're getting closer finishing a book, is when you 1445 01:20:39.439 --> 01:20:42.880 start getting more and more detailed things that you need. 1446 01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:46.399 You start off asking these broad, generic questions and then 1447 01:20:46.439 --> 01:20:49.479 it just gets more and more detailed as you go along. 1448 01:20:49.880 --> 01:20:52.159 So by the time I was getting into the real 1449 01:20:52.279 --> 01:20:56.479 nitty gritty of stuff, Monty was not capable of answering 1450 01:20:56.479 --> 01:21:00.520 those questions. We just didn't remember enough anymore. Oh, there 1451 01:21:00.600 --> 01:21:03.279 was a lot of vague stuff originally in that chapter 1452 01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:06.680 about what girl mac Rouse may or may not have written, 1453 01:21:07.159 --> 01:21:10.119 And then thankfully I got that interview and it just 1454 01:21:10.279 --> 01:21:15.520 cleared up everything, including like this speech that Mary Elizabeth has, 1455 01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:18.840 and I said, I think you wrote this speech that 1456 01:21:18.920 --> 01:21:22.319 she has by the Lake with war notes, and he 1457 01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:25.000 was like, I don't know, it doesn't sound familiar, and 1458 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.920 I said, I'm positive. I just feel positive he wrote 1459 01:21:27.960 --> 01:21:29.600 it because, like I read one of his books. He 1460 01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:32.640 wrote this book called Arkansas Audios, which I've read, and 1461 01:21:32.680 --> 01:21:34.399 I was like it, First of all, it sounds like 1462 01:21:34.399 --> 01:21:38.359 the writer of that book wrote this anctim. And second 1463 01:21:38.399 --> 01:21:41.399 of all, Charles Wolford has never given a monologue to 1464 01:21:41.439 --> 01:21:46.000 a woman like in any of the books I've read, 1465 01:21:46.359 --> 01:21:48.640 so it just seems like it'd be out of character 1466 01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:52.399 for her to have this funny monologue. And so he's like, 1467 01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:55.920 what is the story against So I transcribed the story 1468 01:21:55.960 --> 01:21:58.159 from the film, and then he wrote back and oh 1469 01:21:58.199 --> 01:22:03.199 my god, he literally wrote, OMG, he is not only 1470 01:22:03.560 --> 01:22:05.880 did I write that it's a true story. 1471 01:22:06.239 --> 01:22:09.199 Oh wow, that happened to somebody I went to high 1472 01:22:09.199 --> 01:22:09.600 school with. 1473 01:22:09.880 --> 01:22:11.600 I've told that story a million times. 1474 01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:14.239 I don't know why I didn't when you first mentioned it. 1475 01:22:14.680 --> 01:22:18.159 That was great. I felt very validated by having doubt 1476 01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:21.000 he had written that. But yeah, so it was like 1477 01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:23.039 it was an adventure. It's the first time I've done 1478 01:22:23.079 --> 01:22:26.680 a book project that that really required the memories of 1479 01:22:26.720 --> 01:22:30.560 other people for it to work. Obviously, House of Psychotic 1480 01:22:30.600 --> 01:22:35.600 Women is so personal that it's really just stated from 1481 01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:39.159 the outset, this is just how I remember things. Whether 1482 01:22:39.199 --> 01:22:41.000 it's true or not, it doesn't matter, because this is 1483 01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:43.720 how I remember it. It's based on my own memories 1484 01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:47.760 and my own perspective, my own take on things. But 1485 01:22:47.800 --> 01:22:49.439 when you're doing the book like this, you're dealing with 1486 01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:53.960 other people's lives, like experiences they had that you are 1487 01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:59.079 just recording on based on this disparate information coming in 1488 01:22:59.079 --> 01:23:03.000 from different sources, some of which does not coear with 1489 01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:06.800 each other. And so I still am the terror that 1490 01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:10.039 it's full of things that are just wrong. 1491 01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:14.000 For people who are going to be like, that's not 1492 01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:15.239 what I meant or whatever. 1493 01:23:15.720 --> 01:23:19.039 But I worked on it for eight years and I 1494 01:23:19.119 --> 01:23:20.359 feel like fit my all. 1495 01:23:21.159 --> 01:23:23.279 You mentioned the design and the design of the book 1496 01:23:23.319 --> 01:23:26.039 is beautiful. It just looks so good. 1497 01:23:26.920 --> 01:23:30.800 Yeah, So Luke Insect designed it. He also did the 1498 01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:33.880 FOLKR box set that I did with Severn. He also 1499 01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:36.439 did the Black A menu of the box set, and 1500 01:23:36.479 --> 01:23:39.119 he did the Warped and Faded book that I edited 1501 01:23:39.760 --> 01:23:43.079 about the American genre film arc On And he's like 1502 01:23:43.079 --> 01:23:48.279 a really versatile designer. But he loves psychedelic stuff. And 1503 01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.600 I also really like the kind of overlay effects and 1504 01:23:52.439 --> 01:23:55.880 registration being off from the images and stuff like this. 1505 01:23:56.079 --> 01:23:59.199 So there's like a certain place where our tastes neat. 1506 01:23:59.800 --> 01:24:04.800 And I also knew that doing an entire book about 1507 01:24:04.840 --> 01:24:08.479 one movie fair use of images becomes a problem. Like 1508 01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:10.840 when I'm doing a book like House of Psychotic Women 1509 01:24:10.920 --> 01:24:12.840 and i have three hundred movies in it, and I'm 1510 01:24:12.840 --> 01:24:16.439 only using one picture from each movie, nobody's really going 1511 01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:18.399 to freak out about that. But if you're doing the 1512 01:24:18.600 --> 01:24:21.560 entire book about one movie and every picture in that 1513 01:24:21.640 --> 01:24:24.960 book is from that movie, that's pushing the limits of 1514 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:26.920 fair use. You can't get away with that. So I 1515 01:24:26.960 --> 01:24:29.800 had to think of some other way to illustrate a 1516 01:24:29.880 --> 01:24:34.760 book without totally abusing the fair use thing. And like 1517 01:24:35.239 --> 01:24:37.640 cock fighter images, so it's full of other images that 1518 01:24:37.680 --> 01:24:41.600 are not from cockwriter, that are like more like atmospheric 1519 01:24:41.640 --> 01:24:44.479 images are related somehow to the subject matter that's being 1520 01:24:44.520 --> 01:24:48.279 talked about. But I also like every image is manipulated 1521 01:24:48.319 --> 01:24:50.840 in some way, so they're not They're usually not just 1522 01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:55.239 stills from clockwriter or post or strong clockwriter. There's usually 1523 01:24:55.359 --> 01:24:59.720 two or three images like overlaid, like interplaying with each other. 1524 01:25:00.039 --> 01:25:02.960 And so part of that design was like a practical 1525 01:25:03.039 --> 01:25:06.720 consideration because in fair use, part of fair use is 1526 01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:09.840 that if people want to sue you, they have to 1527 01:25:09.880 --> 01:25:12.560 prove that you've somehow I pinned on their ability to 1528 01:25:12.600 --> 01:25:15.319 commercially exploit that thing. So if I was to do 1529 01:25:15.399 --> 01:25:19.079 this beautiful book all about cock Fighter and every picture 1530 01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:21.800 is like a perfect reproduction of a still from Cockfighter, 1531 01:25:22.159 --> 01:25:25.640 that would prevent like Shout Factory who now owns it, 1532 01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:28.520 to make their own book about cock Fighter that's full 1533 01:25:28.560 --> 01:25:31.640 of images, Whereas a book like this, where there's three 1534 01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.279 images jumbled up together in one, it does not prevent 1535 01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:37.600 them from doing like a coffee table book of all 1536 01:25:37.640 --> 01:25:41.199 these beautifully pristine stills from the movie. So it's just, 1537 01:25:41.960 --> 01:25:44.479 you know, it doesn't guarantee anything, but it's just one 1538 01:25:44.520 --> 01:25:48.920 of the considerations I had to not abuse it. And 1539 01:25:48.960 --> 01:25:51.680 then in the meantime, those kinds of challenges lead you 1540 01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:55.680 to make creative decisions that ultimately make the book stand 1541 01:25:55.680 --> 01:25:56.199 out more. 1542 01:25:56.920 --> 01:25:59.399 You mentioned the screening up in Fantasia. How did that 1543 01:25:59.439 --> 01:26:02.520 go and how do audiences react to Cockfighter in twenty 1544 01:26:02.560 --> 01:26:03.079 twenty four? 1545 01:26:03.920 --> 01:26:06.319 There was everally people that came out were like, there 1546 01:26:06.359 --> 01:26:09.119 was a lot of clockwiting, but other people found it 1547 01:26:09.199 --> 01:26:11.119 really interesting, and I don't know how much like my 1548 01:26:11.319 --> 01:26:14.039 I read the introduction to my book before the screening, 1549 01:26:14.680 --> 01:26:16.119 and so I did have a lot of people that 1550 01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:18.600 said they were glad I did that because it just 1551 01:26:18.800 --> 01:26:21.560 put them in the right mind frame to appreciate things 1552 01:26:21.600 --> 01:26:23.239 about the film. Because the thing is, if you go 1553 01:26:23.319 --> 01:26:27.439 into the film and you're just focused on how upsetting 1554 01:26:27.439 --> 01:26:30.880 the cock fighting is, you miss everything else. If you're 1555 01:26:30.920 --> 01:26:33.560 just focused on that, oh, this is awful, this is awful, 1556 01:26:33.560 --> 01:26:35.720 I don't want to see this, then you're not paying 1557 01:26:35.720 --> 01:26:39.079 attention to everything else in the movie, because that's overpowering you. 1558 01:26:39.479 --> 01:26:43.239 So hopefully my introduction helped to diffuse that a little 1559 01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:45.439 all bit, so that they knew other things that they 1560 01:26:45.479 --> 01:26:48.520 should be looking out for with the characters and stuff 1561 01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:53.399 like that. For the most part, people seemed to at 1562 01:26:53.399 --> 01:26:56.520 the very least respect it when they came out. Nobody 1563 01:26:56.600 --> 01:27:00.239 was outraged. Nobody was like I'm going to go all 1564 01:27:00.279 --> 01:27:04.359 the SPCA and report you guys playing this movie or anything, which, 1565 01:27:04.439 --> 01:27:07.880 like every theater I contacted about doing a book launch, 1566 01:27:08.079 --> 01:27:10.119 like many of them asked me They're like, do you 1567 01:27:10.279 --> 01:27:12.880 start protests. I was like, oh god, I don't even 1568 01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:17.359 think about that. I mean maybe, but the movie's so 1569 01:27:17.520 --> 01:27:21.119 old those chickens are they would be dead either way now, right. 1570 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:28.079 But also, I don't know. It is interesting it really 1571 01:27:28.159 --> 01:27:33.199 only plays in the context of Monty Helman retrospective and 1572 01:27:33.279 --> 01:27:36.119 so you typically don't have the word clupfighter on the 1573 01:27:36.199 --> 01:27:41.479 marquee of the theater. It's Monty Helman retrospective, so nobody. 1574 01:27:41.479 --> 01:27:43.840 It's not going to trigger those people who are like 1575 01:27:44.039 --> 01:27:47.399 gonna get upset about it because it's couched inside this 1576 01:27:47.560 --> 01:27:50.760 larger retrospective. Because it doesn't actually play on it's all 1577 01:27:50.920 --> 01:27:55.039 not often very many places. The Maid Fair in Ottawa 1578 01:27:55.119 --> 01:27:58.000 I think has actually played it because Lee Demarb, who 1579 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:00.800 runs that theater, has his own print of it. So 1580 01:28:00.880 --> 01:28:03.840 there are these collector prints out there, and so some 1581 01:28:03.920 --> 01:28:07.359 of those people I think have played it occasionally. But yeah, 1582 01:28:07.399 --> 01:28:11.359 it does. It's pretty underplay. But I guess lots of 1583 01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:14.319 Monte Hellman's movies are other than t Lang Blacktop. 1584 01:28:14.880 --> 01:28:19.119 It's not like you go see Iguana on a retro screening. 1585 01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:22.840 Yeah, but even like China nine Liberty thirty seven, which 1586 01:28:22.880 --> 01:28:26.279 is another film of his people really love but you 1587 01:28:26.319 --> 01:28:29.279 never see that anywhere. But yeah, I guess the shooting 1588 01:28:30.079 --> 01:28:33.600 right in the Whirlwind to Lang Blacktop, those are the 1589 01:28:33.640 --> 01:28:35.840 ones that get played the most. 1590 01:28:37.079 --> 01:28:40.960 Nine years later, books finally out. What's next for you? 1591 01:28:40.960 --> 01:28:43.159 You are like the busiest person that I know. You 1592 01:28:43.520 --> 01:28:45.880 put me to shame when it comes to your projects. 1593 01:28:46.319 --> 01:28:49.920 That's funny because I always think that about Can Ellinger 1594 01:28:50.079 --> 01:28:52.279 and Alexandra Heller Nicholas. 1595 01:28:52.960 --> 01:28:55.840 I'm like, oh my god, they do so much. I 1596 01:28:55.920 --> 01:28:56.960 feel like a. 1597 01:28:57.119 --> 01:29:01.119 Slob sitting here doing nothing. But yeah, so I am 1598 01:29:01.159 --> 01:29:04.640 working on a couple more box sets per several and 1599 01:29:04.680 --> 01:29:06.560 I have two more box sets that are supposed to 1600 01:29:06.560 --> 01:29:09.159 come out this year that are pretty much finished. They're 1601 01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:14.000 just like in the last touches of qcing and manufacturing 1602 01:29:14.640 --> 01:29:17.840 problems and whatever, but my work on them is pretty 1603 01:29:17.920 --> 01:29:20.920 much done. And then on a script, like an actual 1604 01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:24.880 narrative script for an unannounced project. And then I have 1605 01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:28.720 the Severn options, the book Killing for Culture, the Dave 1606 01:29:28.800 --> 01:29:31.119 Correcus and David Slater, their book that came out in 1607 01:29:31.159 --> 01:29:35.319 the nineties, which is like kind of the seminal book 1608 01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:39.399 studying Mondo film and snuff film and death film and 1609 01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:42.239 stuff like this, and so we optioned it to make 1610 01:29:42.239 --> 01:29:46.359 a documentary and that's going to be my next documentary 1611 01:29:46.399 --> 01:29:49.239 that I make, And it's still a couple of years 1612 01:29:49.239 --> 01:29:53.680 away because there's a lot of research and reading and 1613 01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:56.159 everything I want to do aside from that book. It's 1614 01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:58.720 not going to be just like a straight adaptation of 1615 01:29:58.760 --> 01:30:02.760 that book. It's going to be focused on what would 1616 01:30:02.760 --> 01:30:05.560 I want to focus on from that book, and then 1617 01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:09.960 a bunch of stuff that's just interviewing different people, so 1618 01:30:10.119 --> 01:30:13.039 I won't be like just data corrects and David Slater 1619 01:30:13.159 --> 01:30:16.119 and their book. What's going to be using that as 1620 01:30:16.199 --> 01:30:20.319 like the center, but then building around it. And partially 1621 01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:25.319 it's such a grim topic that it has to be 1622 01:30:25.439 --> 01:30:28.319 a movie people would want to watch. It's going from 1623 01:30:28.600 --> 01:30:32.239 the Woodland Stark and Days Bewitched, which has a hopeful ending, 1624 01:30:32.359 --> 01:30:34.880 but it's got a lot of harsh imagery, but it 1625 01:30:34.920 --> 01:30:37.239 has a lot of beautiful imagery, no, and it ends 1626 01:30:37.279 --> 01:30:41.680 on a relatively uplifting note about people being connected and 1627 01:30:41.720 --> 01:30:44.000 stuff like this, And then I feel like, then going 1628 01:30:44.000 --> 01:30:48.479 from that to killing for culture is about snot films. 1629 01:30:49.079 --> 01:30:53.000 Is the challenge just to make a film that can 1630 01:30:53.239 --> 01:30:56.159 resonate with people in the same way day, and it's like, 1631 01:30:56.199 --> 01:30:57.800 how do you do that when the subject matter is 1632 01:30:57.800 --> 01:31:03.039 so grim and aesthetically that films are so grim. So 1633 01:31:03.119 --> 01:31:05.600 that's one of the things I'm trying to play with 1634 01:31:05.720 --> 01:31:08.119 is the esthetics a lot. 1635 01:31:08.239 --> 01:31:10.000 And yeah, there's. 1636 01:31:09.840 --> 01:31:12.359 Like certain things about it that it's like too early 1637 01:31:12.439 --> 01:31:15.840 to talk about, but there's definitely like an angle that 1638 01:31:15.960 --> 01:31:18.520 I'm taking that I think will make it interesting for 1639 01:31:18.560 --> 01:31:21.640 the average person. Obviously, there's people who love death films 1640 01:31:21.680 --> 01:31:24.640 and Wondo films and snap films who would watch it 1641 01:31:24.680 --> 01:31:26.279 no matter what, But I do want it to be 1642 01:31:26.319 --> 01:31:29.399 able to play for a person who isn't like a 1643 01:31:29.439 --> 01:31:32.920 collector of that kind of material. So that's the next 1644 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:36.359 big thing I'm working on. I also have this book 1645 01:31:36.399 --> 01:31:41.319 that I've been editing forever. It's like the cock Writer book. 1646 01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:43.239 It's been like a real albatross, which is my book 1647 01:31:43.239 --> 01:31:47.720 about Robert Downey Senors films, and so that's an anthology 1648 01:31:48.119 --> 01:31:51.039 book and my friend Clint Ends and I started putting 1649 01:31:51.079 --> 01:31:53.560 it together and like gone. I think it was right 1650 01:31:53.560 --> 01:31:56.039 around the same time as I started thinking about Cockwriters, 1651 01:31:56.119 --> 01:31:59.399 so it was like twenty fifteen, and at first we 1652 01:31:59.399 --> 01:32:00.439 were having trouble. 1653 01:32:01.239 --> 01:32:03.119 We just it's like the only book where. 1654 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:07.079 I've had trouble getting people to write the chapters. Like 1655 01:32:07.319 --> 01:32:09.399 when we first started hitting people up, there was a 1656 01:32:09.439 --> 01:32:12.640 lot of people who felt that they didn't know his 1657 01:32:12.800 --> 01:32:15.600 catalog well enough, you know, like they'd see one movie 1658 01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:17.239 of his and they're like, actually, I don't really know 1659 01:32:17.279 --> 01:32:19.279 films that well. Or a lot of people who are 1660 01:32:19.319 --> 01:32:22.079 like they didn't know how to read his films. They 1661 01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:25.399 were like, I don't know how to understand the humor 1662 01:32:25.479 --> 01:32:27.600 in his film. And then there was like people who 1663 01:32:27.680 --> 01:32:30.439 had written extensively about his films. Many of those people 1664 01:32:30.439 --> 01:32:33.960 didn't want to write extensively again, you know, they're like 1665 01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:36.640 I already did that. So yeah, so that's been like 1666 01:32:36.640 --> 01:32:40.399 a real challenge. And so we have I would say 1667 01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:42.920 ninety percent of a book, but I'm not one hundred 1668 01:32:42.920 --> 01:32:45.279 percent happy with it, and so it keeps being delayed 1669 01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:49.399 as I'm trying to find these missing pieces that'll make 1670 01:32:49.439 --> 01:32:53.039 me happy and make me feel like, Okay, this is 1671 01:32:53.199 --> 01:32:56.880 enough strong material. And then the other thing too, is 1672 01:32:56.960 --> 01:33:00.760 again dealing with similar with the cop Writer book, is 1673 01:33:00.800 --> 01:33:05.199 how do you illustrate it when it's all one person's ip. 1674 01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:08.840 So trying to find a creative way to do that 1675 01:33:09.439 --> 01:33:11.880 while still being respectful. And the thing too, is, like 1676 01:33:12.319 --> 01:33:16.960 my book is, it's a pretty much SEMII academic of essays, 1677 01:33:17.039 --> 01:33:20.359 so it's not the final word. It's not a biography, 1678 01:33:20.640 --> 01:33:24.239 nothing like that. So there's absolutely room for more studies 1679 01:33:24.279 --> 01:33:27.560 of Robert Downey Senior after this book comes out. So 1680 01:33:27.680 --> 01:33:29.840 I definitely don't want to do anything that makes people 1681 01:33:29.880 --> 01:33:32.800 feel like, oh, I can't do my book now or whatever. 1682 01:33:33.479 --> 01:33:36.439 I definitely want it to be just one of the 1683 01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:41.039 first because to me, his work is so rich and 1684 01:33:41.239 --> 01:33:46.319 deserving of analysis, even though he's so against his films 1685 01:33:46.359 --> 01:33:51.000 being analyzed, but he really deserves it. His work deserves it, 1686 01:33:51.279 --> 01:33:53.319 and so I feel like there should be five books 1687 01:33:53.319 --> 01:33:56.520 about his work, and the fact that people have trouble 1688 01:33:56.600 --> 01:34:00.000 reading his films is all the more reason and why 1689 01:34:00.560 --> 01:34:04.560 we need these studies. So I'm still chipping away that, 1690 01:34:04.760 --> 01:34:07.000 and then also working on a book with my friend 1691 01:34:07.000 --> 01:34:11.680 Amy Searles about the depiction of horror fandom in film 1692 01:34:11.680 --> 01:34:14.399 and television, because that's something that's of interest to me 1693 01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:18.000 because I've seen horror fandom change so much in real 1694 01:34:18.079 --> 01:34:21.960 life and I've seen those reflections happening in movies and 1695 01:34:22.039 --> 01:34:24.520 stuff to where you can have a horror fan in 1696 01:34:24.560 --> 01:34:28.439 a movie now and no one even comments on it. 1697 01:34:28.439 --> 01:34:31.960 It's just somebody with the evil dead shirt is like 1698 01:34:32.079 --> 01:34:36.119 totally normal, Whereas any time before the nineteen eighties, if 1699 01:34:36.119 --> 01:34:39.840 that were to happen, that person would be pathologized narrative 1700 01:34:39.880 --> 01:34:42.760 of the film. So we just wanted to do almost 1701 01:34:42.800 --> 01:34:46.159 like an encyclopedia in a way of films and television 1702 01:34:46.600 --> 01:34:50.960 throughout the twentieth century depicting these changes in horror fandom. 1703 01:34:51.560 --> 01:34:53.800 So that's something that Amy and I have been working 1704 01:34:53.840 --> 01:34:54.760 on for a while too. 1705 01:34:55.399 --> 01:34:58.840 That sounds fascinating, as does the Robert Downey Seeing Your Stuff, 1706 01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:02.760 as does the Killing for Culture documentary. This all sounds amazing. 1707 01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:07.520 I still inspire constant. Everything inspires me. I feel like 1708 01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.520 every conversation I have, Elorady book, I read, every movie 1709 01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:14.920 I watched, just looking at my cat looking out the window, 1710 01:35:15.000 --> 01:35:17.800 everything is yeah, it's weird, like I live on an 1711 01:35:17.800 --> 01:35:20.600 island and I never see anybody. But I still feel 1712 01:35:20.680 --> 01:35:25.079 totally overstimulated, like the world just has so much cool 1713 01:35:25.119 --> 01:35:28.079 stuff going on that it's like hard to even pick, 1714 01:35:28.199 --> 01:35:31.520 like where what to do next? So I'm just glad 1715 01:35:31.600 --> 01:35:33.880 that like my stuff gets to be a little piece 1716 01:35:33.920 --> 01:35:37.680 of just like building block of all these cultural studies 1717 01:35:37.800 --> 01:35:38.880 and everything. 1718 01:35:39.640 --> 01:35:42.079 Yeah, and some of the things that you've been behind 1719 01:35:42.159 --> 01:35:45.560 with not only your book with House a Psychond of Women, 1720 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:49.000 but then also the movies that came out from that, 1721 01:35:49.359 --> 01:35:51.560 And just I told you all those years ago when 1722 01:35:51.560 --> 01:35:53.319 the first version came out, I was just like, damn you, 1723 01:35:53.439 --> 01:35:56.159 Kayla for making my watch list so much longer. But 1724 01:35:56.199 --> 01:35:59.640 then it's great that there's actually releases of these movies 1725 01:35:59.680 --> 01:36:02.800 now that are tied into the book. That was fantastic. 1726 01:36:03.600 --> 01:36:05.640 Yeah, No, I think that's cool, especially with some of 1727 01:36:05.680 --> 01:36:09.079 the movies, like something like the Mapu Page. I feel 1728 01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:12.640 totally after my book came out, that movie had a 1729 01:36:12.720 --> 01:36:17.199 second life. Like Karen Arthur gets asked to come and 1730 01:36:17.239 --> 01:36:21.640 present screenings pretty frequently since the book came out, and 1731 01:36:21.680 --> 01:36:24.359 it was like, it's not like nobody remembered that movie 1732 01:36:24.359 --> 01:36:28.239 A Scorpion. They put it out before my book came out, 1733 01:36:28.479 --> 01:36:30.880 like somebody had put it out on a Blu ray. 1734 01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:33.720 I just don't think it had gone much attention. It 1735 01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:36.640 was like somebody's pet movie that they wanted to release, 1736 01:36:36.680 --> 01:36:38.760 but it didn't really get a whole lot of ink 1737 01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:42.279 or attention or anything, but the book changed it because 1738 01:36:42.319 --> 01:36:46.520 a lot of the retrospectives around the book, like festivals 1739 01:36:46.560 --> 01:36:48.960 and things would do like a House of Psychonic Women's 1740 01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:51.479 series when the came out, and that would be one 1741 01:36:51.520 --> 01:36:54.079 of the films that played at almost all of that 1742 01:36:54.600 --> 01:36:58.920 see Secret Ceremony and that laid at so many of 1743 01:36:59.600 --> 01:37:02.640 the record respective and then of course like Possession and 1744 01:37:02.800 --> 01:37:07.279 The Greued were like the staples. But yeah, so some 1745 01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:10.800 of those films it was great to see, and most 1746 01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:14.359 recently with the reissue it was like Identicate Liz Taylor 1747 01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:18.600 movie that seemed to have found a new audience through 1748 01:37:18.640 --> 01:37:19.039 that book. 1749 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:20.479 So that was cool. 1750 01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:24.319 Elogenise, it is always wonderful talking with you. I appreciate 1751 01:37:24.359 --> 01:37:26.800 your time because, like I said, I know you're super busy, 1752 01:37:26.920 --> 01:37:29.760 but this was great. And thank you so much for Cockfighter. 1753 01:37:30.520 --> 01:37:33.079 Oh, no problem, thank you. I thought you were going 1754 01:37:33.159 --> 01:37:34.560 to like totally destroy me. 1755 01:37:35.319 --> 01:37:39.800 Oh gosh, no, I loved it, els Fan. 1756 01:37:39.960 --> 01:37:42.640 I thought you were totally gonna be like you didn't 1757 01:37:42.680 --> 01:37:45.479 mention this, or you didn't talk about net or whatever. 1758 01:37:47.520 --> 01:37:48.159 I got wrong. 1759 01:37:48.640 --> 01:37:51.159 No, no, not at all. And I don't think you 1760 01:37:51.199 --> 01:37:53.720 got anything wrong, and I think everything that you brought 1761 01:37:53.720 --> 01:37:57.039 to the table was great. So I really cannot recommend 1762 01:37:57.079 --> 01:37:58.079 the book enough to people. 1763 01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:00.000 Thank you, Thank you so much. 1764 01:38:00.199 --> 01:38:05.880 That really makes me very happy, coming right at you. 1765 01:38:05.880 --> 01:38:11.279 War an Oath Orn to kill. In the Hustler's world, 1766 01:38:11.319 --> 01:38:12.600 it's pay or duck. 1767 01:38:13.439 --> 01:38:15.760 Oh wow, this means that I'm sorry. 1768 01:38:15.800 --> 01:38:17.199 You know, I didn't bring no cash on me. 1769 01:38:17.199 --> 01:38:18.840 I was so sure I was gonna win and everything. 1770 01:38:18.880 --> 01:38:20.439 But listen, I got some money at home. 1771 01:38:20.479 --> 01:38:21.880 I got a lot of I'm gonna bring you back. 1772 01:38:21.760 --> 01:38:22.319 This sus like you know. 1773 01:38:31.319 --> 01:38:33.560 He's a redneck rebel with a taste for hot women 1774 01:38:33.560 --> 01:38:36.600 at fast comes born to be white. The law can't 1775 01:38:36.600 --> 01:38:37.239 touch him at all. 1776 01:38:39.319 --> 01:38:41.399 It's a sticker hands over your heads. 1777 01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:46.199 Anybody lose hits a head bless though orn to kill? Wow, 1778 01:38:49.920 --> 01:38:53.560 two high stake scamblers. How to con every fat cat 1779 01:38:53.640 --> 01:38:56.439 in the cell. Much old movie the brickichetes off the 1780 01:38:56.439 --> 01:38:58.199 screen with a double bear election blast. 1781 01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:01.760 War an Ah's just born to kill rate it on. 1782 01:39:02.159 --> 01:39:05.279 We were back when we were talking about Cockfighter and yeah, 1783 01:39:05.279 --> 01:39:08.479 we mentioned before this whole thing. And Kayla does a 1784 01:39:08.520 --> 01:39:12.920 fantastic job in her research of coming up with the 1785 01:39:12.960 --> 01:39:18.720 whole post release of Cockfighter and all the different titles 1786 01:39:18.800 --> 01:39:22.880 and went through and I never did find anything that 1787 01:39:22.960 --> 01:39:27.199 really supported like the Gambling Man, and what's the other one, 1788 01:39:27.239 --> 01:39:32.640 the Hard Fighter the Yeah, Wild Fights or whatever it's called. 1789 01:39:32.680 --> 01:39:36.079 But I do have a Born to Kill poster which 1790 01:39:36.119 --> 01:39:40.119 I'm very proud of, which changes the artwork significantly and 1791 01:39:40.199 --> 01:39:43.479 puts an axe in Warren Oates's hand, much like Ed 1792 01:39:43.520 --> 01:39:47.920 Begley Junior, and it's I guess it's Mary Elizabeth driving 1793 01:39:47.960 --> 01:39:51.239 the car and he's like in the car swinging this 1794 01:39:51.359 --> 01:39:54.800 axe and stuff. It's pretty fantastic. I was so happy 1795 01:39:54.800 --> 01:39:58.239 to find that poster at Records of this Dates at 1796 01:39:58.319 --> 01:40:00.880 a record store years and years ago and was able 1797 01:40:00.920 --> 01:40:03.359 to pick that up. So one of these days I 1798 01:40:03.399 --> 01:40:07.359 want to get that framed, that and the Cockfighter poster, 1799 01:40:07.439 --> 01:40:09.560 and I'll just have them looking at each other. That'll 1800 01:40:09.560 --> 01:40:12.720 be like double Warre Notes. And this was the same 1801 01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:15.560 year that Warren Notes did bring me the head of 1802 01:40:15.600 --> 01:40:19.279 Alfredo Garcia. How fucking crazy is that that's one of 1803 01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:22.239 his all time performances the same year. 1804 01:40:23.039 --> 01:40:26.279 I find it so fascinating though about when art house 1805 01:40:26.319 --> 01:40:29.920 films get pre promoted in these ways. That are so 1806 01:40:30.079 --> 01:40:33.079 lurid and it doesn't make any sense at all with 1807 01:40:33.199 --> 01:40:37.079 the natural material. It really makes me think of which 1808 01:40:37.119 --> 01:40:40.880 just came out a year before Cockfighter, which is tremendous. 1809 01:40:41.119 --> 01:40:44.039 I call it art House because I think it's brilliant. 1810 01:40:44.119 --> 01:40:46.840 I think it's a great movie. But that film, at 1811 01:40:46.840 --> 01:40:49.319 one point it was put out is Daddy's Deadly Darling. 1812 01:40:49.439 --> 01:40:54.279 The Vinegar Center release has an alternate intro that was 1813 01:40:54.319 --> 01:40:58.439 tapped on like poor white trash style where it's applied 1814 01:40:59.279 --> 01:41:02.640 her father later and it's the incest and then it 1815 01:41:02.680 --> 01:41:05.079 cuts to the title screen of a woman's ass with 1816 01:41:05.199 --> 01:41:08.520 the type. It's so boggers and horrifying because this is 1817 01:41:08.560 --> 01:41:10.640 a great movie. This is legit a great movie, and 1818 01:41:10.680 --> 01:41:16.520 they've completely like shot potted for that grass dollar. It's 1819 01:41:16.560 --> 01:41:19.640 such a carny tactic. I don't think we see those 1820 01:41:19.760 --> 01:41:23.279 kind of carni tactics as much with film nowadays. Uh, 1821 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:26.159 which is which is some ways is for the batter 1822 01:41:26.399 --> 01:41:30.359 films like Cockfighter and Pigs and what we've talked about 1823 01:41:30.399 --> 01:41:34.000 before Massacre at Central. Why these are serious films. These 1824 01:41:34.039 --> 01:41:36.279 are really great films. They should be regarded as such. 1825 01:41:36.439 --> 01:41:41.479 But it was just a different era and that passage Mike, 1826 01:41:41.600 --> 01:41:45.600 you reading that VHS box description earlier, I want to 1827 01:41:45.600 --> 01:41:48.920 make that an outgoing message on my phone that that 1828 01:41:49.039 --> 01:41:52.520 is like a meditation tape. I love it so much. 1829 01:41:53.520 --> 01:41:55.119 It's terrible, but it's amazing. 1830 01:41:56.039 --> 01:42:00.359 I wish I could find those other versions. They alternates 1831 01:42:00.439 --> 01:42:04.560 with Lewis Tegue says, Oh, yeah, I added more stuff, 1832 01:42:04.600 --> 01:42:09.399 more dream sequences, and I know Monty Hellman is like, yeah, 1833 01:42:09.520 --> 01:42:14.039 there's shots in the finished film that is called cock 1834 01:42:14.119 --> 01:42:19.239 Fighter that aren't his, like the speaking of Jack or 1835 01:42:19.600 --> 01:42:23.520 Burk's two tone shoes, like the blood that sprays on 1836 01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:28.119 the two tone shoes. Apparently that wasn't a Monty Hellman shot. 1837 01:42:28.560 --> 01:42:31.520 Doesn't sound like, at least in the maybe they caught 1838 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:34.079 him on a good day. But the audio commentary that 1839 01:42:34.159 --> 01:42:36.840 was on the old Anger Bay DVD for this, it 1840 01:42:36.880 --> 01:42:40.319 didn't sound like he was too angry about that, which 1841 01:42:40.399 --> 01:42:43.760 was good because, Yeah, Kayla's book is fantastic to read 1842 01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:47.479 just how curmudgeonly Monty Hellman was about his own movie 1843 01:42:47.560 --> 01:42:51.640 and just like shutting her down, you know, oh, that's 1844 01:42:51.680 --> 01:42:54.199 the worst thing that I made, and just not even 1845 01:42:54.199 --> 01:42:58.079 wanting to talk to her after she said it's her 1846 01:42:58.119 --> 01:43:02.119 favorite I'm like, yeah, no, I got the same treatment 1847 01:43:02.159 --> 01:43:03.840 from him. It took a long time for him to 1848 01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:05.960 warm up to me again after I told him how 1849 01:43:06.039 --> 01:43:07.079 much I love Cockfighter. 1850 01:43:07.800 --> 01:43:09.640 It's always so strange when you get to talk to 1851 01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:13.119 artists about works that it hit you so hard and 1852 01:43:13.760 --> 01:43:18.439 they act almost like a vampire. See. But at the 1853 01:43:18.439 --> 01:43:22.680 same time, if you're dealing with studio interference, it's understandble 1854 01:43:22.720 --> 01:43:26.640 that I should put a bitter taste certainly in someone's mouth. No, 1855 01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:29.119 I hate it. I hated it that he This is 1856 01:43:29.159 --> 01:43:34.079 a fine film. This is a really intelligent, really beautifully made. 1857 01:43:34.119 --> 01:43:37.640 There's such a harmony with how every element in this 1858 01:43:37.680 --> 01:43:41.960 film really comes together. Yeah, the editing, the cinematography, the direction, 1859 01:43:42.279 --> 01:43:47.680 the writing, the acting, the music. Yeah, every element just 1860 01:43:47.720 --> 01:43:52.560 really it's perfectly placed. And Yeah, if you didn't anyth 1861 01:43:52.560 --> 01:43:54.840 about Charles Wiliford, you would just think he was another 1862 01:43:54.840 --> 01:43:55.800 great character actor. 1863 01:43:56.720 --> 01:43:57.039 He is. 1864 01:43:57.439 --> 01:43:59.880 He's great. I was like, man, this is a great guy. 1865 01:44:00.199 --> 01:44:05.279 The mustache and oh my god, it's the author. That's 1866 01:44:05.279 --> 01:44:08.279 sound cool. I love if. I bet we're getting a 1867 01:44:08.319 --> 01:44:13.840 book out documenting jiguliarly Kaylas journey with it. This is 1868 01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:17.880 a story where people need to be talking about this film, hopefully. 1869 01:44:19.159 --> 01:44:20.920 I don't know what status it's at right now. We're 1870 01:44:20.920 --> 01:44:23.800 getting like a nice blu ray. It's me it seems 1871 01:44:23.840 --> 01:44:27.359 like it should be primed for it, but god, there 1872 01:44:27.359 --> 01:44:31.079 are so many terrible movies out in four. 1873 01:44:30.920 --> 01:44:32.119 K that. 1874 01:44:33.560 --> 01:44:35.319 Surely, to goodness it would be cool if somebody did, 1875 01:44:35.359 --> 01:44:37.920 like Charles Williford set. 1876 01:44:38.239 --> 01:44:40.199 Yeah, I'd love to get a new version of a 1877 01:44:40.199 --> 01:44:41.560 woman Chaser over there too. 1878 01:44:42.520 --> 01:44:46.800 To circle back on that episode from forever ago, they 1879 01:44:47.119 --> 01:44:50.159 have re released it, but with a different score because 1880 01:44:50.239 --> 01:44:54.760 all that original music was so cost prohibitive. So there's 1881 01:44:54.760 --> 01:44:57.600 a version, but yeah, it doesn't have that awesome score 1882 01:44:57.640 --> 01:45:00.079 that I talked about. And yeah, I'm looking at a 1883 01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:04.039 shut factory blu ray of this. I'm not sure when 1884 01:45:04.039 --> 01:45:12.319 it was released, but there are absolutely no extras on this, 1885 01:45:12.600 --> 01:45:15.840 which is a real shame. Looks like a very bare 1886 01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:22.119 bones blue ray. I think you get subtitles that's about it, 1887 01:45:22.239 --> 01:45:27.640 or chapter stops on screen biographies of main characters. 1888 01:45:27.720 --> 01:45:31.319 Yeah, I'm surprised I didn't mention the menu. And here 1889 01:45:31.359 --> 01:45:34.560 I was upset that my blue ray of Jackal and 1890 01:45:34.720 --> 01:45:41.239 Hyde together again it doesn't have any Dude, But Cockfighter 1891 01:45:41.319 --> 01:45:43.279 come on ruefully. 1892 01:45:44.079 --> 01:45:46.760 Yeah, because they had a lot more on that old disc. 1893 01:45:47.640 --> 01:45:51.039 That was nice. And yeah, Dennis Bartak was doing the 1894 01:45:51.279 --> 01:45:55.640 commentary with Monty Hallman and I'm trying to remember the 1895 01:45:55.720 --> 01:46:00.119 other gentleman's named Stephen Gatos who was also wearing the 1896 01:46:00.399 --> 01:46:03.600 Nixon mask. And yeah, I was working behind the scenes 1897 01:46:03.640 --> 01:46:04.119 quite a bit. 1898 01:46:04.079 --> 01:46:04.640 In this one. 1899 01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:09.880 Oh nice, Yeah, Anchor Bay, that's some. They did such 1900 01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:12.600 a beautiful work on their releases. I still treasure all 1901 01:46:12.680 --> 01:46:13.640 my acre based. 1902 01:46:13.359 --> 01:46:18.439 Off I'm also looking at a from the language. I 1903 01:46:18.439 --> 01:46:22.279 think this was a French release on Blu Ray and 1904 01:46:22.880 --> 01:46:27.880 you're gonna love this includes Bond's original, so includes the 1905 01:46:27.920 --> 01:46:31.159 original trailer. I know that's gonna get you to buy 1906 01:46:31.199 --> 01:46:31.600 that one. 1907 01:46:31.720 --> 01:46:34.399 All the really cheap DVD so I wou'd say interactive venue. 1908 01:46:34.520 --> 01:46:39.560 It's it's Health Takes Guys, which is okay when it's 1909 01:46:39.600 --> 01:46:41.479 like Bruce Lee fights back from the grave and you 1910 01:46:41.520 --> 01:46:45.359 pay literally two bucks for it. Not that I did that, yea. 1911 01:46:45.760 --> 01:46:47.960 It Give me a Willaford box set, Give me a 1912 01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:51.479 Monty Hellman box set. I don't know if Like Iguana 1913 01:46:51.479 --> 01:46:53.680 has ever been released in a good version. I know 1914 01:46:53.800 --> 01:46:56.279 China nine Liberty thirty seven. That was another one I 1915 01:46:56.319 --> 01:46:59.159 had to order from Video Search of Miami. I think 1916 01:46:59.159 --> 01:47:02.159 that one is a level now in good quality. I 1917 01:47:02.199 --> 01:47:05.000 don't know about This isn't Monty Hellman. This is another 1918 01:47:05.880 --> 01:47:08.199 Warre notes, but I don't know if Barcaro has ever 1919 01:47:08.279 --> 01:47:12.199 been properly released. There's too many good movies out there 1920 01:47:12.199 --> 01:47:13.800 that people just aren't paying attention to. 1921 01:47:14.640 --> 01:47:16.840 When you think of Warren Oaks and great trailers, though, 1922 01:47:16.880 --> 01:47:19.159 have you guys seen the trailer for Dixie Dynamite. 1923 01:47:19.800 --> 01:47:22.560 I have a copy of that movie, but I don't 1924 01:47:22.600 --> 01:47:24.000 think i've seen a trailer short. 1925 01:47:25.000 --> 01:47:29.520 Imagine an American flag and you're just snorting a big 1926 01:47:29.560 --> 01:47:34.239 old fat rail of illicit drugs off of it. It's 1927 01:47:34.279 --> 01:47:39.079 got everything. It's got exploding cars, Warren Oats yelling, which 1928 01:47:39.199 --> 01:47:43.399 I love him yelling, a cop that literally is on 1929 01:47:43.479 --> 01:47:46.880 a toilet and it explodes if he flies off the toy. 1930 01:47:47.600 --> 01:47:49.680 The trailer if you're having a bad day. 1931 01:47:50.479 --> 01:47:55.399 I'm watching the trailer right now and it looks spectacular. 1932 01:47:54.920 --> 01:47:57.760 Out the voiceovers great since real bomb ass and the guys. 1933 01:47:57.880 --> 01:48:02.159 Dixie Dynamite is a blast, and it's like it's in 1934 01:48:02.920 --> 01:48:06.920 ward outs yelling he's drinking there is an a in there, 1935 01:48:07.479 --> 01:48:11.000 and it's just it's glorious. The only thing missing is 1936 01:48:11.079 --> 01:48:14.199 like a bikini knife fight or something with some he 1937 01:48:14.319 --> 01:48:18.479 haw honeys. It's just glorious hicksploitation. 1938 01:48:19.479 --> 01:48:22.880 I'm watching the trailer for Born to Kill and it 1939 01:48:23.079 --> 01:48:27.199 starts with a semi truck coming right at us. US 1940 01:48:27.239 --> 01:48:32.439 shot that in the movie itself pretty good. Oh man, Yeah, 1941 01:48:32.520 --> 01:48:37.319 we've got Steve rails Back being taken down ed, Begley 1942 01:48:37.560 --> 01:48:40.840 running at the camera with the hatchet in his hand. 1943 01:48:41.439 --> 01:48:45.359 Oh yeah, here's some good car crashes and car chases that. Yeah, 1944 01:48:45.520 --> 01:48:48.279 oh boy, this is so different. I can't wait for 1945 01:48:48.319 --> 01:48:49.000 people to hear this. 1946 01:48:49.800 --> 01:48:52.680 There's a song about a song by The Damned off 1947 01:48:52.720 --> 01:48:55.439 their first album called Bourne to Kills. Even bore just 1948 01:48:56.000 --> 01:48:59.960 does not work for this actual universe in movie. 1949 01:49:00.640 --> 01:49:02.279 All right, we're gonna take another break and play a 1950 01:49:02.319 --> 01:49:05.119 preview for next week's show right after these brief messages. 1951 01:49:05.800 --> 01:49:09.520 Mal pertui so se if logi. 1952 01:49:11.279 --> 01:49:12.000 Lona as. 1953 01:49:14.319 --> 01:49:24.880 This is all it is a noble secrets. 1954 01:50:00.279 --> 01:50:31.960 HM said to del sometimes stuff not just very love loyalty. 1955 01:50:35.079 --> 01:50:36.000 That's a serp. 1956 01:50:41.960 --> 01:50:43.039 If he needs. 1957 01:50:44.039 --> 01:51:23.560 Mm hmm, came aboup. 1958 01:51:52.159 --> 01:51:53.600 Lo love. 1959 01:51:55.439 --> 01:52:20.479 Little that's right. We'll be back next week to kick 1960 01:52:20.560 --> 01:52:25.520 off a confluence of Patreon requests with Shoctober surprises, starting 1961 01:52:25.520 --> 01:52:28.760 with Harry Kamel's mail Pertwee. Until then, I want to 1962 01:52:28.760 --> 01:52:31.960 thank my co hosts Heather and Jed So Jedediah, what 1963 01:52:32.079 --> 01:52:33.199 is the latest with you, sir? 1964 01:52:34.560 --> 01:52:38.359 I'm just partner around on Twitter and a little bit 1965 01:52:38.439 --> 01:52:42.079 on the Good Little Blog, but low profile and no 1966 01:52:42.159 --> 01:52:45.560 big projects right now. I finished a project this summer 1967 01:52:46.319 --> 01:52:50.319 and not something I can talk about, but hopefully we'll 1968 01:52:50.319 --> 01:52:51.600 see the light of day someday. 1969 01:52:52.199 --> 01:52:57.079 Oh nice, all right, So mysterious and Heather, what's happening 1970 01:52:57.119 --> 01:52:57.800 in your world? 1971 01:52:58.520 --> 01:53:02.520 I know I'm not as mysterious, but I did update 1972 01:53:02.720 --> 01:53:07.039 the Mondoheather Patreon has a new piece on ten Years Island. 1973 01:53:07.479 --> 01:53:13.720 The Alfred Soul directed Oddity during Denise Winters and that 1974 01:53:13.880 --> 01:53:17.279 was a fun piece to write. And that movie is 1975 01:53:17.479 --> 01:53:21.199 complete bonkers, or one could say bananas because it has 1976 01:53:21.399 --> 01:53:26.399 an A in it. But that I've recently contributed some 1977 01:53:27.560 --> 01:53:30.880 supplementary work I can't really talk about, but I will 1978 01:53:30.880 --> 01:53:33.560 tell you it involves this sat the genre of South 1979 01:53:33.640 --> 01:53:39.359 Korean horror, and I am working on a video that's 1980 01:53:39.399 --> 01:53:43.319 a little tribute to the glories of Greg House and 1981 01:53:43.399 --> 01:53:47.560 Altre Cinema and anytime if the spirit vibs. You can 1982 01:53:47.600 --> 01:53:51.640 find more on my leak treat lie createleaktreat dot com, 1983 01:53:51.840 --> 01:53:53.199 Forward slash Mondo Heather. 1984 01:53:54.000 --> 01:53:55.800 Thank you so much folks for being on the show. 1985 01:53:55.840 --> 01:53:57.560 Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear 1986 01:53:57.560 --> 01:53:59.239 more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some 1987 01:53:59.239 --> 01:54:01.359 of the other shows other work on there, all available 1988 01:54:01.399 --> 01:54:05.199 at wirdingweightmedia dot com. Thanks especially to our patrion community. 1989 01:54:05.239 --> 01:54:07.960 If you want to join the community, visit patreon dot com, 1990 01:54:08.000 --> 01:54:11.199 slash projection booth. Every donation we get helps the projection 1991 01:54:11.279 --> 01:54:12.479 booth just take over the. 1992 01:54:42.600 --> 01:54:44.920 You had to run out. 1993 01:54:45.119 --> 01:54:48.920 You have problems with all data. Told you that you 1994 01:54:49.119 --> 01:54:49.479 had to. 1995 01:54:49.479 --> 01:54:53.239 Find out what separate readie. 1996 01:54:52.800 --> 01:54:56.119 For lies and you get weigh up. 1997 01:54:57.520 --> 01:54:57.960 We're in a. 1998 01:54:58.039 --> 01:55:02.520 Gable oil Chances, who's six twenty of it? 1999 01:55:03.720 --> 01:55:08.039 If you don't make a pint count entry for all 2000 01:55:08.119 --> 01:55:13.840 the blood romans that you. 2001 01:55:11.520 --> 01:55:13.920 Know, you can't see that. 2002 01:55:14.119 --> 01:55:18.279 All what the the one heads and get the balls 2003 01:55:18.920 --> 01:55:19.560 he cut. 2004 01:55:19.439 --> 01:55:23.079 On we would you see he got his clock gas 2005 01:55:23.239 --> 01:55:24.119 my hand and down. 2006 01:55:25.039 --> 01:55:45.640 If he's confined to this reason Kayser. 2007 01:55:46.920 --> 01:55:50.119 He kicks a dive, needs to plant out in the gravel. 2008 01:55:50.720 --> 01:55:55.920 He's got his resistance to the lesion out red juice. 2009 01:55:56.880 --> 01:55:59.279 There's no destruction his. 2010 01:55:59.600 --> 01:56:03.640 M anything that I could winnow, as your. 2011 01:56:03.640 --> 01:56:07.199 Friend Hildren, it's the worst that you gotta you. 2012 01:56:07.319 --> 01:56:10.239 He said this. See this's the funny. 2013 01:56:11.800 --> 01:56:16.600 You'll make a t count that tree willer blu brother 2014 01:56:18.079 --> 01:56:22.119 got a chill now you can't see you know about 2015 01:56:22.239 --> 01:56:24.079 once never. 2016 01:56:24.000 --> 01:56:25.680 Once had say con found. 2017 01:56:26.720 --> 01:56:28.880 He's got out who you see. 2018 01:56:29.880 --> 01:56:31.920 God has caught this run out and down. 2019 01:56:33.039 --> 01:56:34.760 He's confined to the other's can