Speaker 1: Hi, this is David Rowntree and you're listening to Unknown
Origins Radio.
Speaker 2: We live in a world filled with unknown.
Speaker 3: You can't handle the truth? Him as hell, I'm not anymore.
We will not go quietly into the nights. We will
not vanish.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Unfound or to the radio, and good evening everybody.
Welcome to another edition of Unknown Origins Radio here on
the Dark Matter Radio Network. I'm your host, Mark Johnson,
and I'm really pleased and thrilled to be able to
welcome back our co host, mister Bruce Pearson. Hi you tonight, Bruce.
Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like a guest appearance anymore, isn't it.
I think I think our guest tonight is been on
more than I have recently. So yeah, it's good to
be back. Well, good, good, good.
Speaker 5: What have you been up to lately?
Speaker 1: Oh? Man, I've been doing a lot of traveling. I
was down in Washington to the conference down there three
days last week. The week before I was the Myrtle Beach.
So keep him busy trying to pay the bills, you
know how that goes?
Speaker 5: Oh very much, so very much.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 5: Well, we've been doing pretty good.
Speaker 4: You missed a couple of great shows, you know, hopefully
if we get some of those guests back on in
the future. Last week we talked with author Ken Cherry
about his brand new book, The Mark Slade Investigates the
Stephenville UFO, and that is of course being published by
our company, Gleannette Tie and that just hit the online yesterday,
so it's now for sale and anyone who's interested in
copies you can get them on Amazon dot com or
on our website at glanetttig dot com and we're currently
working on getting them into a bookstore near you, So
definitely check it out. It's a great read, and listen
to our show from last week. It's in our archives,
which you can listen to our archives anytime on Planet Paranormal,
on iTunes, on podbeam, so we're posting it everywhere, so
definitely take take a listen to all of our archives
shows while we're at it. And uh, it's been a
it's been an interesting uh interesting week, uh these last
few weeks, and we haven't.
Speaker 5: Got a chance to really talk about it.
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, before we get into introducing our guests tonight,
just wanted to bring this up. The have you kept
up with or have you heard much about the the
whole thing going on with these roswell slides.
Speaker 1: Yes, Unfortunately, Uh, the turmoil continues. And and really, you know,
I as as Chris and I the last time we
were together discussed I mean, uh, certainly, I guess all
of us in this community have some connections with everybody
else that are researchers and investigators and so on. But
I mean, I actually he had worked last March and
with Heimie on a documentary that he is producing on
the extinction of the monarch. Butterfly had absolutely nothing to
do with UFOs are paranormal, So I know Heymie quite well.
I've known Linda Howe for thirty some years, I guess
back in the old New Mexico days when I lived
out there, and you know, Richard Dolan was there, and
of course he's a good friend. So yeah, it didn't
go down really very well. And you know, I hope
that nobody takes a beating too bad for it. I
personally don't think any of these folks, knowing their integrity
and their backgrounds, were doing anything overtly to try to
go around the facts. But unfortunately, it's a very unforgiving world,
and it was not a happy scene. And I don't
know that the final chapter has been written on that,
but we'll talk to Christopher about that tonight if he's
interested in weighing in on it. And it's a shame
because you know, the whole community takes a it takes
a shot and a jaw on at right across the forehead.
So it's not a good it's not a good thing. No,
it's not.
Speaker 4: And and again, yeah, that's something I'd like to definitely
get Christopher's thoughts on later when we get him on
because for some the people of this caliber, these researchers,
I mean, it's not fly by night researchers. These are
people who have been seriously investigating this for years and
to not be able or to be fooled by these
pictures and I know that, uh, and I we'll talk
a little bit more about it later. I was actually
listening to Whitley Streeber and he had on he had
on both Heimi and Linda Moulton Howe on his show
last week discussing this, and they were claiming that the
plaques and things that they're coming up with are not
what they seem and so it's there's still the controversy
still continues, so definitely looking forward to discussing that further.
So why don't we since we started talking about that,
let's get right into it. Let's introduce our guests for tonight.
We're really thrilled to have this gentleman back on our show.
He is the author of a trilogy of books that
focus on the San Luis Valley area of Colorado, New Mexico.
His latest book, Stalking the Herd, which just came out
of this time last year, and of course there's Enter
the Valley and Secrets of the Mysterious Valley. And he's
also the host of his own radio show. And we
want to welcome Christopher O'Brien to the program.
Speaker 1: How are you tonight, Chris, Hey, guys, Chris, welcome back.
And just let me say on the onset not to
you know, I don't want to make you too good.
You feel too good, you'll fall asleep on us. But
having said that, you know you are a very serious,
very methodical researcher. I thought you did an incredible job
on Stalking the Herd, the last one I read when
we were together back in I guess in April or
March down in Hamilton. What a great presentation. And you know,
really having started back in seventy six, seventy seven in
New Mexico and covering a couple of those mutilations, you
definitely gave me a very very interesting and I think
a very credible perspective on what might be going on.
And then I have to tell you, man, that's a
major one eighty for me in Bravo. Well done.
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, well, dot of work, man, Twenty years
of research went into that eighteen months of writing.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think anybody can even comprehend on the
surface the amount of time and devotion it takes to
put that long into researching something. And I think you
did an incredible job.
Speaker 7: And it's tough. It's a tough book to talk about
a cocktail parties.
Speaker 1: It is, And you know what the preconceived notion of UH,
and certainly some of our colleagues have have gone off
in a different direction, and quite honestly, I had not
been exposed to although we all agree that that could
have been one of the possible scenarios and one of
the you know, the culprits could have UH lived very terrestrially,
if you will. You made a very sound case, and
I think your your hypothesis could hold up in court
any day of the week. So good for you, man.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that I tried not to h to come
down on too strongly on any particular side of the equation,
you know, until i'd really had a chance to, you know,
through all the data against the wall and and really
ponder some some people's opinions that I really respect and appreciate.
Speaker 7: Of course, men.
Speaker 6: Uh in the preamble, Linda Moulton Howe, the fairly recently
departed Tom Adams, David Perkins. Uh, There's there's quite a
number of individuals, law enforcement officials, scientists, you know, people
who who I've really looked up to for years that
that I think really deserve to have their uh, their perspective,
their you know, years of experience, and their their insights, uh,
you know, should be should be brought into the discussion.
I I don't really feel that I'm in a position
to to cast judgment on this whole thing and come
up with a single, one size fits all answer, you know,
the whole you know, the un unsolved livestock death phenomenon
for lack of you know, a better UH definition or
a term uh is is very complicated in and I
just felt that somebody needed to get all the data
as as closely as we can, UH in in complete
a fashion as we can, all down in one place.
And then I've really been working on, you know, crunching
the numbers, looking at at trends, looking at patterns, and
seeing how all this thing really, you know, plays out.
I haven't come you know, like I said to a
I haven't come up with a single, one size fits
all answer to this. I don't think there really is one,
to be honest. But you know those who say that's
all aliens coming here gathering genetic material, you know, I
feel I've laid out a case that they would suggest
that there's there's other avenues that we should be looking
at before we jump off planets.
Speaker 1: So I think that's a very important point though, that
there are a number of high strangeness related cases that
do not fall into a terrestrial explanation. So I think
there's room for everybody at this table. Yeah, a bizarre Well,
the thing that amazes me is that and we can
say this time and time again, Mark and I have
marveled at this fact. But it's the nature of the industry,
if you will, and that is that this is such
a long term and prolific type of event and mainstream
media just doesn't even give it a thought. You couldn't
find one person out of a thousand in the general
public that has any knowledge of this. And it's such
a prolific crime that from a law enforcement standpoint, people
should be up in arms about it. And to me,
that's that's one of the most amazing aspects of this.
We are selectively interested in things that are just so
out bizarre and astounding, and yet nobody seems to bother
about it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Kim Kardassian's but has exactly a lot more to
to to attract the average you know, member of the
American pubic because I like to call them. This could
actually in many ways, I really think this is this
could be the world's great just unsolved serial crime spread
and it gets no ink, no press, no mention.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 6: You know, we've had cases recently that have been investigated
that absolutely you know, gain no you know, outside of
their local region, gain no notoriety.
Speaker 7: People just go to McDonald's, have.
Speaker 6: Their big Max, They go to you know, have their
their whoppers and their uh you know, they're they're fast
food hamburgers. It's a closet subject. People just don't want
to want to even think about how you know, that
beef is raised and and you know, is is slaughtered
and rendered and put into patties and end up on
you know, you know, in their supermarket on styrofoam wrapped
in plastic. That's all they want to know, you know,
don't tell me anything else. You know, it's just I
don't care about the antibiotics in there. I don't care
about the growth homeworns. I don't care about mad Got disease.
All these things out of sight.
Speaker 7: Out of mind.
Speaker 6: It's a six thousand pound gorilla that's sitting in everybody's kitchen.
And you know, I just felt that somebody had to
come step up, get all the data as best as
they could objectively and as dispassionately as possible, get all
the data presented in one place. And you know, it's
just one of those unsung, those unsung tasks that you know,
occasionally somebody steps up and you know, and tries to
tackle that that big old, you know, blind spot in
our pantry. Which is unfortunate, but you know that it
hasn't been done up until now, and I don't I
don't think it would have been done unless I stepped
up to do it. So that was my public service,
and that was my public service announcement.
Speaker 7: And there you go.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, a lot of it I want to
say is that you know, people are distracted by the
wrong things. But it seems to be if you look
at society's conditioning of people. The media won't take it seriously,
and they'd rather show you pictures of Kim Kardashian's but
you know which, there's not a TV that can hold
that butt anyway. They wanted to distract you with the toys,
the flashy and they tell you don't worry, everything's fine.
And if we talk about, oh yeah, there's a mysterious
cattle mutilation, you know, the snicker factor comes in. They
play X files music and they do everything to diminish
the fact that there is this very mysterious crime wave
going on with these cattle mutilations, and nobody will take
it seriously because as a public we're taught not to
take it seriously. It's something fringe, it's freaky or it
doesn't fit into somebody's religious or psychological paradigm, so they're
taught to ignore it. And that's why it always stays
in the shadows and nobody takes it seriously.
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, And you know it's it's like many things
in culture where where as you pointed out insightfully, I
think we're programmed, you know, by the media. We're programmed
by corporations who have tremendous power in our culture to
to to be fixated on things that that that don't
that don't rock the boat. You know when you talk
about you know, genetically modified organisms and and and the
way we process meat in this country, how how this
meat is is you know, adulterated with all kinds of
you know, steroids, antibiotics, growth hormones, things of this nature.
You know, the corporations, you know, this is the largest
income producing sector of agriculture, and the f d A
is populated by uh, you know, vice presidents of large
you know agro concerns, uh, you know, ex corporate managers
and and and higher ups that wheel tremendous influence within
the regulatory agencies, within the the LA. Uh you know,
the passing laws that protect the the food chain and
protect the sanctity of food. These are things that the
average person really until you know, e Coli breaks out
in the spinach. You know, they never tell you where
the ecali comes from. But equal I, let's say, breaks
out in spinach, and they say, look at look at
your you know, spinach. If it's a lot number, blah
blah blah blahlah blah blah, don't eat it, and this
sort of thing. That's the only time you even get
close to having to think about these types of issues.
And you know, for the most part, I think our
country does a good job in in in you know,
hiding the truth from the consumer, from the end used consumer.
You know, corporate profits are are always held you know,
shall we say they're they're deified compared to public health
issues at times, and unfortunately, we we are descending into
a you know, I don't want to get political here,
but I mean it's pretty obvious to me anybody that's
on the ball that uh, this country is descending into
a corporate pocracy or a plutocracy that is that is,
you know, totally managed and coddled and full mutilated.
Speaker 7: And spindled by the corporations.
Speaker 6: You know, so you know, all we have to do
is either complain and do something about it or just
you know, just shut up and you know, got what
we deserve. So you know, that's basically what it boils
down to. If you think there's a problem there, then
then do something.
Speaker 1: Let me jump in on that, Chris, because I think
that's that's a very good point, and I think that
there is some light at the end of this tunnel,
as Mark and I have discussed many times, and I
think you've been in this research long enough to know
that there has been. Thanks with all its problems and
foibles and with all the phony nonsense that's on there,
the Internet has been the saving grace as a journalist
because we wouldn't be having this show today if we
were constrained to terrestrial broadcasts. Absolutely I started and this has.
Speaker 6: Been the godsend to alternative news sources. I get almost
exclusively all my information from from news sources that ten
years ago, fifteen years ago we did not have access to.
Speaker 7: And and God God help us if.
Speaker 6: We had to rely on the six corporations that have
totally you know, outside of the Internet, have totally you know,
you know, totally taken over all the media outlets in
this country.
Speaker 7: It's it's it's really man, the Internet has been a godsend.
Speaker 1: A little background, I H this is a topic that
that's very near and dear to me only because I
you know, I producer and directed a very in depth
documentary back when I was in the Southwest on the
beef packing industry from the you know, from the from
the field to the table and to see at that
time even what was going on. And you know, we
went everywhere from the the slaughterhouses to Swiss Premium and
Oscar Meyer and uh, you know Iowa Beef Processors, who
was the biggest in the nation at that time. But
to understand the industry, the mechanism of food processing for
the beef industry until it gets to your table, and
what goes into it. And then also you know, my
work with the Coast Guard investing in checking on fishing
vessels and to see the abhorrent lack of standards in
that industry of you know, we're worrying about whether stuff's
refrigerating the beef industry and you've got fish laying on
the deck of the boat theoretically in ice with flies
all over them and they're sliding them across the deck
to you know, I mean, it's amazing. Go to the
Fulton Street fish market in New York sometime watch these
guys slide in tune and stuff across the floor and
throwing them around. It's a wonder nobody gets sick every day.
The point also is, and I just don't want to
bring this into perspective because our listeners, you know, Mark
and I try to touch a wide variety of topics here,
and certainly this is going to when we get into
your story and depth. You know, the background has some
unexplained and paranormal perhaps aspects of it in some regard.
But this is serious stuff for everybody out there listening,
who we whether you're interested in this particular topic or not.
And I was in the supermarket today, and there are
positive effects by the work you do and the work
people that research like you do. And I'll tell you
why I was. I was walking through the supermarket and
I'm amazed at how many products now say no GMO
components whatsoever, from butter to peanut butter and so on.
Speaker 7: So they just Taco Bell and and who was it?
Speaker 6: We get the other fast food company have just now
declared they're going to go all natural with their ingredients.
We already have Carls Junior has come out with the
first all natural hamburger from a fast food organization, and
it's Taco Bell and somebody else.
Speaker 7: One of the Biggies.
Speaker 6: Another one of the Biggies have declared they are going
to go all natural as well. So I think there
is and to amplify what you were saying, I think
think there is a ground swell of indignation that that
we're seeing from the from the consumer side of this equation,
I think people are more interested in what goes into
their bodies. I think processed food in general is becoming
a losing part of market share, and I think market
share of of of you know, thoughtfully grown, thoughtfully processed,
and thoughtfully uh packaged food, I think is going to
become a larger and larger segment of the market and
the prices are gonna come down. So you're right, I
think we're seeing a ground swell finally of people that
they aren't going to be you know, they're they're mad
as hell, they're not gonna take it anymore. Just like
you had in your your end up on the beginning
to show you know, the uh, you know, the wonderful
uh thing what's his name, Peter, uh, what's his name?
From network?
Speaker 7: I love that well.
Speaker 1: I think that I think we should take heart in that,
because you know, it's nice to see some positive outcomes
of the work and certainly the number of years that
you put into this. But it's it's really dependent on
the number of people who are not mesmerized by their
local sporting event or you know, if they're driving the
biggest suv down the road and are completely distracted from
the real world around them by the toys and gadgets
that we're all enticed with. But that remains to be seen.
But I think that it's it's good and important to
point out the success stories and and you know what,
maybe the pendulum swinging the other way on GMOs and
certainly processed foods don't get a very good recommendation from
anybody anywhere anymore, and maybe we're finally starting to learn
that what we put in our bodies will come back
to haness. So yeah, anyway, let's tell the kids.
Speaker 7: The kids aren't done.
Speaker 1: The kids aren't no, and that's a good thing, let's hope.
So because you know what they've got, They've got an
uphill battle. I think they clean up the mess we're
leaving them. But yeah, now let's get into your story,
because this is it'll take long, more more than two hours,
a lot longer than two hours for you to tell
everything you have to say about this this bizarre crime
crime free in our country. So Mark, if you don't
have anything to add, let's let's let Chris take it
away from the beginning.
Speaker 6: Go for it, Chris, Yeah, it is. It is kind
of a it's a long, strange trip that I've been on,
which you know, really, to be honest, started when I
was ten years old. I you know, was in a
safe way doing a Saturday morning shopping with my mom
in the fall of sixty seven as a ten year old,
and you know, there was a national inquiry with this
picture of these like people looking at you know, at
this horribly uh you know, disfigured horse lining on the ground,
and the lady was pointing at it, and the headline
said flying saucers killed my horse. And I thought, oh
my god, I gotta get this, you know, I got
to read this, and uh, I forget how much it
was at the time, at dead dime, you know, fifteen
cents or something. I'd bugged my mom to give me
some money so I could buy it, and I grabbed
it and I devoured it. I'd read the whole thing
before I got home. And two things happened that I
think it was the end of October beginning of November
sixty seven.
Speaker 7: Two things happened.
Speaker 6: First, I learned about the Snippy the horse case, which
was the first publicized, you know, international news story of
an unexplained livestock death. Even though it's considered the first
cattle mulation, it was a horse. And the second thing
that I discovered was the San Luis Valley, which is
a wonderful, scenic, just gorgeous place that not many people
know about. It's in south central Colorado. It extends down
the tip of the valley goes down to Taos, New Mexico,
and it's completely surrounded by just unbelievably gorgeous, you know,
up to fourteen thousand foot mountains, completely self contained, like
a giant sociological petradition. And that's where I first discovered
that the valley was there when I was a ten
year old, and I remember thinking to myself, man, if
I'm ever in Colorado, I want to go to this
place where flying saucers came down and killed that horse.
So you know, I thought, you know, maybe I'll hear
more about this, And of course I didn't for another
these almost, you know, fifteen twenty years, and I just
so happens, I ended up I ended up moving there.
Just actually coincidentally, I moved out from after spending many
years back East. I went to college in New York City,
and you know, I spent twelve years in New York
and a couple of years in Boston. I was a
professional musician and was you know, had a corporate life,
and you know, it was not really had nothing really
to do publicly with anything having to do with the
paranormal or UFOs. These were you know, subjects that were
social suicide. You never talked about these things, you know,
in polite company cocktail parties. Of course, my close friends
knew I had an interest in this stuff. I'm an experiencer.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: I had a strange, uh you know, very bizarre encounter
when I was very very young, at seven that stuck
with me, you know, all my life, A very very
pivotal event, and you know, these these subjects always interested
me and I was you know what, I guess what
you would call a closet buff.
Speaker 7: You know, I read a lot of the books.
Speaker 6: I was a big fan of Jacques Filet and John
Keel and Ivan Sanderson, and you know, I read the
early books by Donald Keo and Damski, and you know,
I was I was fairly well versed in the subject.
Was very interested in the Hudson Valley siding wave of
the eighties. I remember going out several times and you know,
waiting for the big triangles to show up in onto
Meyer Park on the Hudson River with some friends. And
I did a lot of psychedelics, uh in high school
and in college, which I I feel still to this day,
were absolutely instrumental in in my thinking, uh, how I
view my reality. I've always had a sense that that
that our reality is just a thin slice of what
is actually fully there, that we're only experiencing, you know,
a small portion of a wonderful omniverse that I think
we all, you know, we all co inhabit, but are
not aware of.
Speaker 7: A lot of it.
Speaker 6: And when I moved back out west, of course, you know,
moving to the San Luis Valley. It was like, you know,
what am I doing here? I was sixty miles from
the nearest stoplight. There were very few jobs. I was
one of the third or fourth porest county in the
United States at the time, and nineteen eighty nine when
I moved there, and you know, I didn't think I'd
be there long. I ended up staying there for thirteen
years and I investigated thousands of reports, you know, I wrote.
Started out pretty innocently writing articles for my little small
town newspaper back you know, pre Internet. They were picked
up by the wire services and spread around the world
and I, for some reason, I gained all this notoriety.
Speaker 7: Lou Farrish.
Speaker 6: Of course, the uh UFO news Clipping Service was a big,
you know, supporter of my investigative work, and a lot
of people became aware that I was there, and I
was contacted by many of the people in the field
that I call friends today who are around back then,
and it just blossomed into this kind of, uh you know,
two headed hydra of a hobby and a and a
profession at the same time. If you can, if you
can call anything you do in this field of profession, uh,
you know, I don't. Uh, I don't trust anybody that
pays their bills. Uh, you know, in the paranormal.
Speaker 7: I think that.
Speaker 6: You always have to be careful if somebody you know
is paying their bills in this in this way, because
they are too attached to their own conclusions. They they
they tend to become calcified in their in their opinions,
in their in their conclusions. I'm constantly pointing out at
the emperors on parade who are marching along with no
clothes on.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 6: In this field, I really have a sense that that
the people that are really the ones that that that
I I prefer following their work are ones that do
this as a as a as a passion, as a hobby,
as opposed to a way to pay their bills. And
and that's just me. I may be wrong in saying that,
but but this is something that I've not relied on
as a career. I've done a tremendous amount of work
in this field. They've written six books almost seven now,
and and uh, you know, I've been on all the
TV shows and written tons of articles and all this.
Speaker 7: But I don't rely on this.
Speaker 6: I It's not something that that you know, I could
drop it today and have have a very successful life
as it is. So you know, this, this whole thing
has been more of a passion for me. It's been
kind of like like I said earlier, it's more of
a public service really. You know, I feel that I've
been blessed with with being exposed to wonderful uh minds,
people that have put in the years, have you know,
the experience and the gravitas that that that inspire me
to to you know, to pull my game up, you know,
higher and higher, and and I really bend over backwards,
to be as objective as I possibly can, to not
throw anything in fact, do anything in throw anything out,
and to be as honest about my work as possible.
Speaker 7: And and if.
Speaker 6: People disagree with me, I say, well let me see
your data. You go ahead, you convince me that I'm wrong,
and you're right, you know, and uh you know, I'm
with my show, you know, the para cast. You know,
we try to get on on guests, ask them tough questions.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: Our motto is, let's separate the signal from the noise.
If you have an extraordinary claim, let me see at
least some data to back it up. You know, and
I just, you know, I want to be as best
as I can an example for young people coming up
in this field on how to properly investigate, research and
analyze their work and come up with objective, informed opinions
about things.
Speaker 4: Well, I you mentioned one thing just a minute ago,
and I agree wholeheartedly about the people who are researching
these days. There's so many of them who seem to
be stuck like a broken record. They're stuck repeating the same,
the same thing over and over and not really advancing
their thinking. And too many people in this field fall
into that trap of, you know, just regurgitating what they've
learned from somebody else and not really looking harder and
asking questions, you know, from the being coming from the
paranormal research community. Myself, I get a little bit frustrated,
and I've distanced myself a lot from other paranormal groups
and people because I feel like they're still asking the
same questions over and over and over that people have
been asking for fifteen years, and not taking it to
the next step and just accepting point blank that okay, well,
all paranormal activity all yeah, Well there's ghosts and spirits
and people and somebody died in this house and it's
causing activity. And for me, I've gone so beyond that
because there's so many other aspects that can be looking
into and entertained, not only just with the paranormal, but eufology, cryptosology,
so many aspects that and as you mentioned earlier in
your opening, that our view of reality is even probably
skewed and it's so narrow to what's actually out there
that sticking with the same old, regurgitated, you know, slogans
of this is what we're dealing with, is just it's
not even coming close.
Speaker 7: No, no, it's not.
Speaker 6: And you know I've I've dabbled in many areas of
this type of investigation. When I say dabble, I I
mean that in a you know, in a how would
I put this A kind of a disingenuous sort of way.
I mean, you know, when I get involved in anything,
I do it. You know, you know, all well researched
and and and and full on. But for me, compared
to my let's say, the cattle emulation research or some
of my UFO research, when I say I've dabbled in
UFO research, I've been to some of the most haunted
sights in North America. So and I've traveled, you know,
traveled thousands of miles to get to places and that
sort of thing. But that to me is kind of
a dabbling thing because I was actually hired to be
a cameraman and and be sort of a litmus test
for a lot of the data that was being being
gathered in that sort of thing. But but to me,
it's not my my real baluewick guy, I don't really
consider myself the ghost hunter that sort of thing. But
but you know, going to some of these hands sights,
So first say, I want to know, is how come
we're going in here at night?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Exactly what's up with that? If there's ghosts here? You know, well,
why are we here in the dark? Yeah, well those
would go show up. It's like, uh, I don't think so.
Speaker 4: Twenty four hours twenty four to seven is usually when
it happened. But you know what it's again, it goes
back to perception because most people tend to notice paranormal
activity at night. Why because that it's quieter, the ambient
noise from the day has gone down. People are trying
you're lying or quiet in a quiet house.
Speaker 7: They didn't have that answer.
Speaker 6: It was like, well, it's because that's when that's when
ghosts come out, you know. It was that kind of
mentality of they never even thought to ask themselves that.
Speaker 4: Right, Well, when you're at work all day, how do
you know if there's anything going on in your house
or not, or if you're watching the big football game
and you're focused on it, or you're blasting your music,
or you're having Buddy's over for a barbecue. How the
hell can you be open to understanding if there's this
very subtle type of activity going on around you.
Speaker 6: Some of the best Poltugeist cases have happened right in
the middle of the day, you know. You know, I
tend to be someone that when when people say, you know,
keep your eyes to the sky, the first thing I
do is put my ear to the ground. When they
say everything always happens over here in the western sky,
I immediately say, okay, you guys, look over there. I'm
looking in the east. You know, I'm just one of
those kind of odd, contrarian kind of guys. And and
that's that's just kind of the way that I'm built.
And I you know, there's always got to be someone
like that in a group of investigators, someone that that
that takes the trends and looks at the exact opposite
and begins to be ready for that. Because quite often, this,
as I found over the many years that I've been
involved in this type of investigative work, quite often, uh,
the thing, the thing that you least expect to happen,
is the thing that that that happens, and the thing
that you expect to happen and is the least likely
thing to happen oftentimes. And so you know, most people
tend to be caught unawares in situations like that. The
smart ones are the ones that are ready for the tricks.
Jewish element that's that's often introduced into into these types
of scenarios, and and that's something that I think, you know,
can't be underscored enough that it's you know, I have
identified some really cool patterns, let's say, over the years
with my data, some trends that seem to be taking place,
and as you know, as long as I don't say anything,
these patterns continue and they give me more and more
ammunition for my theory or or you know, my my thinking.
I've identified something and as soon as I open my mouth,
it all goes to hell. No, it completely flips to
one hundred and eighty degrees. It does the exact opposite.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, let me jump in here real quickly, because
it would be we would be remiss if we did acknowledge.
You know, we have some parallels here. You just briefly
mentioned your radio show and and you and Jean, I mean,
Jean's been doing that show for forever. You do a
great job on the para cast, and I really I
really love your interaction. And you know, Jean's a tough cookie.
I mean he You know, between the two of you, guys,
you hold their feet to the fire, and I think
that that's a very healthy thing. You're respectful, you're not condescending,
but you also say, hey, look, you know what put
up or shut up? And that's what we need more of.
Mark and I have discussed this many times, and the
item that you just brought out just bears repeating. You know,
it's interesting. I was taught as an investigative journalist that
if the explosion goes off, I always look in the
other direction to see where the guy's back behind the
tree with the plunger who set it off, you know,
And that's right. That's the way you're going to catch
stuff that the herd mentality never does. There's gonna be
some you know, there's gonna be the guy that rolls
a grenade under the restroom door and then is walking
in the other direction. Is the dude that you need
to look at. Everybody else is going to be putting
their attention to the bathroom stalls blown apart. But that's
what you need to do, and I commend you for
that approach. And I think that's how we're going to
find things that are out of the mainstream, as Mark said,
where it's just more of the same. I mean, how
many times have we heard the same story over and
over and over again. There's really not too many ways
to slice the cake that hasn't already been done on
these mainstream issues. So I applaud you on that. Tell
me a little bit about the show and our listeners,
because I really want to encourage people to listen to
the para cast that's been on for many years, and
I think you guys do an excellent job of ferreting
out the flakes, so good for you.
Speaker 7: We'll thank you.
Speaker 6: I appreciate that we you know, we've been on since
I think two thousand and six. It's been on one
of the first of the Paranormal podcasts. We've graduated to
terrestrial radio over on the GCN Radio network. I think
we're on twenty twenty five stations now as well.
Speaker 7: So, uh, you know, the approach with the para cast
is is pretty simple.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: We we we try as best we can to drill
down to the real essential, you know, the foundation of
a person's work, their claims, uh, the subject matter that
they're talking about. We really try to get to, uh,
you know, to the basic building blocks of what their
motivations are, what their data is, and and you know,
our motto is again as we we we separate the
signal from the noise. We don't consider ourselves an entertainment
show like you guys. You're more into, you know, exposing
people to two new and different uh, investigative work, investigators
looking at subject matter from from fresh and creative angles.
That's what we attempt to do at the Para cast.
We don't suspend our disbelief like entertainment shows like Coast
to Coast and others who just sit back and go, wow,
that's really neat you know, tell us more. You know,
if somebody makes a you know, an outrageous claim, we
we want to know, Well wait a minute, hold on,
stop before you go on. You know, why did you
just say that? What do you have to back that
that statement up? You know what what what sort of
data do you have? What sort of uh you know
of information do you have to share with our audience
that can they can validate that that particular statement. We
ask tough questions, so we would like to consider ourselves
instead of entertainment tonight. We'd like to be considered as
sixty minutes asking tough questions. And and you know, we've
had a number of guests to literally hang up on
us because I've heard they can't stand to eat in
the kitchen, you know. Uh, and our reputation has preceded
us to a certain degree. There's quite a number of
individividuals that we've invited to come on the show to
hold their feet to the fire. And uh, you know,
Linda Howes, the Whitney Steamers, the Andrew Bissaggio's, the Douglas Dietrichs.
I could rattle off a long list of people that
will not come on the show because they know darn
well that Gene and I will just you.
Speaker 7: Know, we'll dog him.
Speaker 6: Well, we'll dog him and we know what we're talking about,
you know, we we don't come into this, uh, you know,
half cocked. My job on the show is to ask
a question of my guests about their subject matter and
have them say I don't know, and then give them
the answer. You that that's my job to know as
much as I possibly can about the subject and have
the guests thank me for supplying him with a little
bit of data point.
Speaker 7: Here over there.
Speaker 6: So and Gene is just very good on just you know,
stopping somebody on a dime and say, well wait a minute,
hold on, before you go on from there, you've got
to qualify that statement a little better for us.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: And and we're doing a good job with it.
Speaker 6: You know, we do have a very large audience, and
you know we do have quite a following.
Speaker 1: Up the good work. And yeah, he'd make a great
prosecuting attorney. But you know, you have to give Gene,
and also in your presentation that we had down in Trenton,
it's when someone has a command of the facts and
has it nailed that goes a long way to say,
wait a minute, he's not just connecting very disparate thoughts
here and trying to make a straight line. And Gene
also has a great command of the specifics of the history,
the fallacies, the falsehoods, the phonies, and so you know,
you're not going to pull the bag over his head
and have him walk off the gang playing very quickly.
So that and as uncomfortable as that is, if Mark
and I feel the same way, and I want to
touch on another point in a second, that is the
only way that we're going to gain credibility in the
general public, and that we're going to move this ball
down the road properly. If we're going to keep flogging
the same stories, then we're nothing but the fairy tale land.
It's just going to go exactly the problem. So it's uncomfortable,
and I hope that I'm held to the same standard.
If I'm full of hot air, then somebody needs to
put their foot up my we're in too, and say
you know your way out of line on that. You
can't substantiate your position on that, and I would I welcome.
And you know, Mark and I have had these discussions
where if you're off base, then you need to be
called the task on it, and that it's got to
apply equally to everybody. And the other issue that Mark
and I have really and I don't mean to speak
for him, but I strongly feel as a broadcast engineer
also that the data collection is where it's at. If
we're going to move this into understanding the physics of
our world that go beyond what we know now is
black and white, up and down and so forth, we
need to start identifying exactly what you're doing, and that
are patterns of documented data in a number of areas
and things we understand, and we can capture Italy from
obvious stuff temperature, ambi, humidity and so forth, but also
in what frequency are we looking at EMF And let's
start putting together a data logger. And David Rowntree is
a big proponent of this and has done a lot
of work on it. But that that's the key to saying, okay,
mainstream science, here's a set of parameters that seems to
repeat itself, and this is the anecdotal evidence that appears
or the recorded evidence that appears similar in similar sets
of circumstances appearing on the data logger. That's where we're
going to move into some patterns that may be able
to put together as some type of an analytical theory.
And I applaud you for that because most people won't
won't even go there. They're there and and that's.
Speaker 6: That's gonna be a tough road to ho and it's
going to take a lot too lazy, I mean, they know,
and that's the proble. Don't have the don't have the
discipline to to be meticulous. And uh that's why you know,
we can't be going at this, you know as individuals
flailing around, uh you know, in the in the dark.
We have to work together only a concerted team effort.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: Anything short of that is is is really going to
be wasting time because you know, one person can't do
everything themselves. And I learned this early on. And I
was very very fortunate to have you know, a well
uh just you know, a selfless team that that helped
me out every step of the way from my brother's
Pyrenees dog Cato h on up to you know, I
stand on the shoulders of giants. So I've had people,
you know show me and and and and drill into
my head the proper way to investigate and into log
data and and to to you know, to to go
about this as an amateur in a professional way. And uh,
and I will always be thankful for that. And you know,
I'm fairly retired now from doing a lot of the
types of fieldwork that that I did, you know, back
in the nineties, in the early two thousands. It's just,
you know, one of the reasons why I moved to
Arizona was to get away from all that. To be
honest with you, I put in three hundred thousand miles
on my truck in six years, so you know, it
got a little bit too much for me. And and I,
you know, I kind of burn out. And I'll be
the first to admit that.
Speaker 7: You know, you.
Speaker 6: Can only maintain a certain level of intensity for for
so long. And one of the reasons why I was
able to do that is because I was the only
person people had to turn to. And when you keep
getting quality phone calls from law enforcement, from witnesses that
you trust, from from you know, you know, your local community, uh,
and people that aren't aren't out trying to get their
you know, you know, names in the paper, their faces
on TV. They just they just know that you are
interested enough to talk to them, and they want to
share something with you. You know, that motivates you more
than anything. And when when that when all of a sudden,
the wave of activity sort of stops, it kind of
leaves a hole in your life and you and you
go on and fill that with other activities and then
boom and this stuff starts up again. You know, It's
it's really rough. Uh, And I don't I don't encourage
just anybody to get involved in this type of work.
The level of dedication, focus and intensity that you have
to bring to this is not easy and not everybody
can do this, as you guys well know. And so
you know, if you do decide to do something like this,
you have to do it correctly or you're a part
of the problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're never going to have any credibility in
the real world. You know. It's funny if you think
about it, We're talking about concepts that clearly anybody that's
spent more than a cursory overview of this in looking
at it, well realize there's something going on here that's real.
We may not understand it. It may not be understood
in our lifetime. But there is something beyond our understanding
going on here, beyond our understanding of physics in the
world around us. Having said that, if you accept that hypothesis,
then it's really kind of funny to see a bunch
of people run out and buying all kinds of equipment.
They have no idea what it does, how it works,
the theories behind it, and you think you're going to
change our theories on physics and the known universe, and
we're running around haphazardly like like somebody that needs a hobby.
I mean, that is really silly. It's like trying to
get a bunch of people on the side to launch
the Space Shuttle from five thousand different places in the
country and have no coordination. So if you look at
it that way, there's every argument to be made for
trying to do it professionally, systematically and as informed as
we can with the resources we have to work together.
So I don't think anyone could argue with the validity
of that concept that that's the way the direction we
need to move in. But before I drag you off
even further, Afield, start telling us about how you got
involved in this, what's involved for our listeners who have
not been exposed to it, will we'll have quite something
to think about for the rest of the night, the week,
and possibly forever. So it's all yours tell us about
cattle mutilations and animal mutilations.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, and I must say, you know, I've done
a lot of things in my life, and you know,
I have a pretty active social life, and and you know,
I get out and do all sorts of things, have
lots of other hobbies. And out of all the things
that I've done in my life, my least favorite thing
to do is to investigate thousands of pounds of rotting
animal flesh. It is disgusting, It is unnerving it, you know,
to have your girlfriend say you are not coming in
this house until I hose you.
Speaker 7: Down and you burn those clothes.
Speaker 6: It's just really it's I really, to this day, I
do not know how I've I was able to get
involved in this to the extent that I was.
Speaker 7: It all started.
Speaker 6: Innocently enough. The New Year's Eve nineteen ninety two. I
had a New Year's e party and had a bunch
of people over, and I had heard about a UFO
siding that about eighteen to twenty people in the town had,
as it turns out, had seen this display of two
hundred foot ovals that came down out of the song
Great Crystal Mountains, about three or four miles down out
into the valley over the town, hovered and then shot
off to the south after several minutes of you know,
hanging around for you know, ten percent of the town
to see. And I had been away gigging with my band.
I'd missed it. But you know, a month or so later,
who I am having a party, and everywhere I went
in the party, people were talking about this UFO event,
and so I thought, wow, you know, I'm writing, you know,
articles for my little local paper. Let me, you know,
start taking some notes here and interview you know, people separately.
And and you know, after I talked to enough people,
I realized they were all talking about the same thing,
and generally everybody was describing the same event. And so
I brought everybody together towards the end of the party
and said, hey, did you know that these people over
here had this same they saw the same thing you did.
And everybody was like, wow, I didn't know, you know,
And and so it was kind of cool to bring
everybody together and let them share their experiences, and somebody
chimed in, Oh, that was the same night there was
a cattle mutilation down in Costilla County, which is a
couple counties south of US where we were in Swatch
County in the San Luis Valley in Colorado. And boy,
that just you know, ding ding ding bells went off
of my head and I was off to the races.
At that point, I was convinced I had, you know,
an article, and so.
Speaker 7: I had two.
Speaker 6: Weeks time before you know, the monthly paper came out
for the crestone Eagle, and so I just dove in.
I you know, I was in between construction jobs. It was,
you know, the beginning of my downtime working construction, and
so I had some spare time. So I started really
digging into researching the San Luis Valley. Of course, I
knew about the Snippy case that occurred, you know, in
nineteen sixty seven, and I knew that there had been
UFO sidings back in the sixties. But I thought all
that was ancient history. I didn't think any of this
stuff went on anymore, although there had and a few
reports that I had heard, you know, over the prior
two three years that I'd been in the area, so
you know, I had always kind of had my ears
perked up for things, but this was the first time
I really started researching. So I immediately contacted the head
of the sociologic sociology department down to Adams State University.
I started contacting county sheriffs. The first call I made
actually was to the owner of Snippy the Horse, who
was still alive, bro Lewis, and he told me that
I needed to call the TV lady, who turned out
to be Linda Moultenhowe, and also the Texas Boys who
turned out to be Tom Adams and Gary Massey, and
they were the people that, as it turns out, became
my mentors for quite a number of years. And so
I was off to the races, and within less than
a week I had found treasure troves of databases of
stories of incidences that had occurred in the past and
had occurred fairly recently. I knew I had enough material
to write a book, if not several books, and so
you know, it was like all this information had been
sitting there, you know, waiting for somebody to come along
and just uncover it and put it all down in
one place. So I ended up writing a fifteen hundred
word article. I was asked to supply five hundred words,
and somehow managed to get fifteen hundred words published. And
like I said, you know, the whole thing just went
quantum on me and went viral. Before there was an Internet,
I got, you know, just hundreds and hundreds of letters.
TV shows showed up. Within two months, I was on
national TV. And I began my calimulation investigation with a
handful of photographs that were handed to me by the
local county sheriff. So Watch County, where I had lived,
had no official reports. In all the databases that I've
uncovered since then, all the main investigators to this nomenon
had never had any cases from Mike County. And the
sheriff gave me twenty four photographs of various cases that
had occurred in the seventies and early eighties, and so
I knew that, you know, so Watch had had cases.
And because I was able to find the deputy that
investigated the cases, I was able to id, you know,
working with him, where each of the photographs, what ranches
belonged to each of the photographs, and the one that
was closest to me was out in Moffitt, which is
the next town, about twelve miles away, And so I
called up the ranch owner and said, hey, I have
this photograph of year Bull that was mutilated in June
nineteen eighty. You know, I'm writing an article. Would you
mind if I came out and talked to you about
it and talk to your family, and you know, Virginia
Sutherland said, sure, come on out. So I went out
the next day and she said they had been sitting
down at dinner and they heard a helicopter fly really
low over their house, and they thought it was kind
of strange, but nobody went outside to look. And then
about twenty minutes later, they heard it come back the
other way, and they thought it was weird because it
sounded like it had, you know, had possibly taken off
from their field a couple miles a mile or so
south of their ranch house. And so they went outside
in this this U forty seven, this ancient, you know,
like early fifties Korean War era helicopter that was painted
bright must and yellow, flew right over their house, you know,
forty fifty feet up, and you know, it was still
light enough for them to see it had no id markings,
no insignias, know, anything to indicate where it had come from.
Next morning, of course, it went out to the field
to see where it had landed, and they found their
bull mulated. Well, this is thirteen years before I interviewed
them and interviewed Virginia and her family, and you know,
we went out there. I took the skull and painted it.
It's on my wall.
Speaker 7: And you know.
Speaker 6: Little did I know my first investigation would would actually
hook me for life. You know, the following day, after
I had interviewed them in this incredible story, I went
started typing up my notes and my you know, was
transcribing my tape recording of the interview. And you know,
I'm sitting there in my underwear, having coffee in the morning.
I hear this the sound of a helicopter and I
look out the the big plate glass window in the
dining noo and here comes up, you know, nineteen fifty
U forty seven painted mustard yellow flew right over my house.
Speaker 7: And I just I'm.
Speaker 6: Telling you, that hooked me for life. Man, I'm still
flopping on the end of the whatever cosmic fishing line
that was dangled out there. So it's just been you know,
I've been two hundred cases later.
Speaker 1: Now we're we're gonna interrupt you here because we're gonna
come up on the break here in just a minute.
But the fact that that you know that that was
an antique helicopter. I have a helicopter license, and it's
kind of even hard to find any of them unless
you go to the Boeing Museum out in Seattle. So
and that was what nineteen eighty you said?
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, the original event was nineteen eighty when I
this is thirteen years later, January ninety three when I
saw it.
Speaker 1: Wow, Mark, how much time do we have to the
break here? Real quick?
Speaker 4: Are we we got about a minute here till the
break or you know, we can actually go to the
break now and then we can come back and discuss
it further from there.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. So don't go away. We'll be back
with Christopher O'Brien on Unknown Origins radio. Don't move a muscle,
will be right back.
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Speaker 4: And welcome back everyone to Unknown Origins Radio. Here on
the Dark Matter Radio Network. I'm Mark Johnson along with
Bruce Pearson, and our guest tonight is Christopher O'Brien who
has written several books, including Stalking the Herd, and he's
done many, many years of research into the strange events
happening in the San Louis Valley within Colorado.
Speaker 5: And New Mexico.
Speaker 4: And you know, before we went to break, you started
talking about seeing the helicopter, Chris, and I was wondering,
were there any reports of anybody that had actually seen
one of these mutilations like take place, whether they're seeing
craft in the sky or or is it always that
the animals were found later and maybe somebody saw lights
but they were unrelated.
Speaker 6: Well, it depends, you know, you have to really look
at this whole subject.
Speaker 7: You know, in Toto.
Speaker 6: Back when when the first wave of cases occurred, it
was rustling actually that was being reported in Missouri, Kansas, Iowa,
and Nebraska back in nineteen seventy seventy one. A lot
of hogs actually initially were being reported stolen, and some
cattle and helicopters were being reported by ranchers and reported
to local authorities. And what you go out in ranching
communities and you start stealing livestock, you're going to get
some attention real fast. And absolutely this actually, you know,
turned into what kind of a dangerous situation. National Guard
helicopters and utility power line checking helicopters are being fired upon,
and and vigilant groups were farming. Truckloads of very heavily
armed ranchers were patrolling the you know, the areas where
these animals were being stolen. And it's almost like that
particular mo modus operandi wasn't It just wasn't working for
whomever the perpetrators were. Because in nineteen seventy two, we
have a complete cessation of you know, serialized rustling and
of any sort of reports of mutilations. There were some
mutilations reported in seventy seventy one. They were fairly rare
at the time. They didn't really have any sort of notoriety.
People were not reporting them like they did just a
couple of years later. But we see this kind of
you know, sort of a I don't know, sort of
a version one point zero stealing the animals and not
returning them. Then seventy two, we don't have any cases
at all. I couldn't find a single case.
Speaker 7: Not one.
Speaker 6: And believe me, I looked and had some help looking,
and then boom, seventy three happened. It really started to
fire up. By seventy five, as many as eight states
a night were getting hit. In the fall of seventy five,
helicopters were being seen, strange lights were being seen. You know,
there were some crime scene evidence scenarios that were reported
by law enforcement. Mascalpel was found some tracks here. Most
of the time, though soft tissue organs were found missing
from animals with no apparent cause of death, there were
no crime scene for the most part, no crime scene
evidence was left behind. It's almost as if the animals
had been taken somewhere, experimented on, then dropped back, possibly
in another part of the pasture. Those cases where animals
were found several fields away from where they were original,
you know, when they were last seen, multiple fence lines,
locked gates, So there appears to be some sort of
aerial component to this. By the time we get to
nineteen eighty eighty one, we've had tom Adams documented over
two hundred and fifty well, you know, documented helicopter sidings.
Speaker 7: In and around reulation sites.
Speaker 6: There were a number of cases where animals were seen
shot at by personnel aboard helicopters. Ranchers were shot at
in some of the early seventy seventy one cases, for instance.
So in answer to your question, just in a handful
of cases, we're actual perpetrators seeing by witnesses. Linda Howe,
of course, has touted the couple of cases where non
humananities were reported, one in Missouri Springs to mind, by
and large, this is a you know, this is the
last frost, the first frost, a warm weather phenomenon that occurs,
you know, primarily at night, and you know, oftentimes you
hear ranchers say, you know, my dogs if somebody had
been out there. If something had been out there doing
that to my cattle, my dogs would have known.
Speaker 7: Uh. You know.
Speaker 6: Oftentimes, most often there's no evidence, uh, during the during
the time period when the animal was slain and disfigured,
there's no evidence to to really uh you know, ascertain
something who was out there or what was out there.
Speaker 1: Chris, No, I take me interrupt. You go ahead and finish.
I want to give you an example here. When you're done,
go ahead. Uh. Well, I just I find it helpful
for the for the listeners if we try to put
this in you know, take this back from the abstract
and put it in the real world and put it
in context. I covered a cattle mutilation out and I
came on the scene in late seventy five in eastern
New Mexico up on the high planes there and we
covered a guy outside of Clovis, New Mexico, a rancher
that we got word and we're right off Interstate forty
about a mile in a dirt lane into his ranch.
As you pulled up, we didn't get within fifteen hundred
yards at a place and the dogs, there were three
or four dogs going crazy and off to this Across
the lane from the house was a holding pen where
he obviously had you know, he would load trailers. And
he had a holding pen with a mercury vapor light
and then a Morton steel building. We went in and
we interviewed him and let me put it in perspective
in the real world, as you said this, these are
felony crimes. Ranchers don't like people stealing what they make
a living off of. And I remember this guy name exactly,
and this guy had this particular rancher had checked the
livestock to be loaded to go to Amarillo, to the stockyard,
to the pens. The next day, went to bed at
nine o'clock. They were all standing there ready to go
happy at clams. He checked it, he I remember, I'm
telling us he checked the ear tags. They were all
ready to be loaded on. The truck was coming at
eight o'clock in the morning. The dogs didn't bark him
and his wife went to bet. He says, I'm on
one hundred and fifty feet. You see how far my
bedroom window is. He comes out in the morning and
here's this steer standing there like Roy, you know, like
trigger Roy Rogers horse, no blood in it. You know,
it's wrecked them court out And I said, well, who
do you think could have done this? And he said, well,
it wasn't a helicopter. We would have heard it. I
don't see any tracks around it. He said, I really
don't care if the tooth fairy did it. He said,
I want somebody to prosecute these sobs. They just stole
twelve hundred dollars out of my wallet and I want
somebody hung exactly, and I mean this guy was very
He says, look, I don't know who did it, but
somebody sure as hell took that money out of my wallet,
and I want to prosecute it. Now, that's the real world,
as crazy as this stuff is.
Speaker 6: Just forty past wotone pasted Wolsenburg up into Colorado, and
a month ago we had we had a case right
off within sight of I forty, I w would be
I twenty five, run goes up to Denver.
Speaker 1: And so you know, this is the real this is.
We're not fooling around here with people telling stories around
the campfire. These are real guys that are losing thousands
of dollars and it's been think about another crime. Let's
put this in perspective. Here, you tell me another crime,
a serial killer, a serial crime that's been going on
for fifty years all over North America, and nobody's ever
been prosecuted or indicted for it. This is if it
was anything else, you know, the country would be up
in arms about this, going would be hammering the state
police and everybody else saying do something. But well they
were back in the seventies, so they really were.
Speaker 7: They were.
Speaker 6: It was the the it was the AP news story
of the year in Colorado in seventy five. There were
you know, I think the rewards got up to sixty
thousand dollars at one point. Of course, this is all
ammunition for the debunkers and the skeptics to say, well,
these animals are just being right, they're dying of you know,
whatever cause. And then scavengers are coming in and scavenging
on the animal and making it appear unusual, and it's
that's like it's like telling a mechanic, uh, you know,
who's looking at a car that he's working on and
worked on the night before he comes back and and
all the tires are slashed, right, and uh, you know,
someone will try to explain that away by saying nobody
did that. It's just something that that occurs naturally. I mean,
it's it's these guys are professional. This is their their livelihood.
They see two percent of their their animals die every year,
two percent of all livestock die in a given year,
two percent of humans die in a given year. So
you know, they see dead bodies all the time. They
see what coyotes do, They see what with vultures, buzzards, crows, magpie,
They see what small animals do, maggot blooms.
Speaker 7: They know what.
Speaker 6: Kinds of things are detrimental for their herd's health, whether
it's poison, plants, bad water, lightning strikes. You know, there's
any one of many things that can kill ahead of
livestock and then subsequently disfigure it. Now we're dealing with
thousands and thousands of cases where there is no apparent
indication of a cause of death and no evidence to
suggest how the animal was disfigured. Now, I've seen magpies
drill out perfect circles in the rear ends of cows.
I've seen the effect of maggot blooms, you know, scouring
the edge of where the scavengers have pulled out, an udder,
pulled off the genitalia, whatever, these types of effects in nature,
in the natural process of animals being scavenged, are fairly
ez I think for the most part for ranchers and
veterinarians and veterinary especially veterinary pathologists, who are the only
professionals really able to determine a cause of death and
and cause of disfigurement. But you know, these are fairly easy,
uh nine times out of ten to identify, and we're
dealing with something different.
Speaker 7: And because I think.
Speaker 6: Just the very word mutilation, I think turns a lot
of people off. And I've for years have gone back
and forth with other investigators about the efficacy of using
that particular word to describe these cases. Whenever someone here's
the word mutilation, it's it's it's it's kind of revolting,
it's it's off putting. So I think I think there's
a built in sort of uh negation factor going on
here that that people just don't want to know about this,
And and within the ranching community, it's been going on
for so long that I don't think they report these
cases anymore for the most part, because they know that
all they're doing is bringing the glare.
Speaker 7: Of scrutiny down on them.
Speaker 6: They're being singled out within their community as being victims.
There's a stigma attached to these types of cases. I
think in many places people would much rather drag it
off to a bone pile, bury it out of side,
out of mind, don't let anybody know what happened, just
kind of, you know, hitch up the belt another notch
and swallow the loss.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: But for the most part, after you know, being out
and just dozens and dozens and dozens of these cases,
you really start to scratch your head and wonder, first
of all, what the heck's the motivation? Why are these
things happening. It's apparent that they figured out how to
do it, so, you know, obviously the modus operandi is
pretty dialed in, but why, what's the motivation to do this?
And you know, to really get down to brass tacks
with this, I really feel it's not so much the
sure the particular animal, it's where the ranch is located
in the environment that is being tested. And I really
do get a sense that we're dealing with some sort
of environmental monitoring. That's the only real theory to me
that that has really stood the test of time. We've
had the alien theory, We've had the government uh, you know,
bacteriological warfare. You know, we've had you know, various theories
that have been put out there by skeptics, by believers,
and none of them really seem to work whole cloth.
And you know, that's what makes this really doubly and
triply and quadruplely difficult, is that there's no one size
fits all answer. Even the environmental monitoring theory, which I
think is the most uh, it's it's the theory that
that that holds the most water for me. But even
that doesn't explain all the cases. We have cases done
in South America that occur routinely that never you know,
word of these cases do not leave the local area
down there. There's thousands of cases that have occurred since
ninety nine two thousand, when cases pretty much stopped occurring
in North America for the most part, or at least
stop being reported. Boom, we had this huge wave of
cases for six seven years that just blistered the pompous
and areas where they raise cattle in South America. And
you don't hear about those cases up here. We barely
hear about cases that occur in our own backyard up here,
let alone cases that occur south of the equator.
Speaker 7: And you know, there's this is a worldwide phenomenon.
Speaker 8: Now.
Speaker 6: The earliest outbreak of unexplained livestock death cases that I
was able to find was in sixteen oh six in
England where hundreds and hundreds of sheep are being mutilated
and no one could figure out why, during the reign
of James the First So you know, it can't all
be the government.
Speaker 7: The government.
Speaker 6: US government wasn't mulating cattle before there was the United
States of America, you know, one hundred and almost two hundred.
Speaker 7: Years before the US.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 6: So you know, this is a mystery. There's a paranormal
aspect to it. I think in some cases, not all,
probably a minority of cases. I think that there's multiple
groups involved. I think that there's a possibility of of
of several agendas that are being overlapped, you know, different
groups having different agendas. I think that there's a lot
of things that you can glean from from the fastest
regenerating tissues in a grazing animal. I think, uh, you
know the fact that cattle hemoglobin if you're a universal
donor or universe or a universal receiver of blood as
a human, you can survive a transfusion of pure cattle hemoglobin.
You know, we're almost in a genetic virtual match to
to cattle hemoglobin human uh to cattle. And so there
there are some some I think, some interesting points that
may tie together and give us, you know, some clues.
But you know, this is a really complex subject.
Speaker 7: And that's that's why.
Speaker 6: You know, it took me nine hundred pages to you know,
three hundred which I had to take out because it
was too big. You know, it's a half a million
pages and six hundred pages, half a million words, six
hundred pages that went into Stocking the Herd. And I
still have a whole other book to write to analyze
the first book.
Speaker 5: So well, look at it this way.
Speaker 4: You already have a third of the next book written.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: Exactly. You know, I just want to point out, just
for the sake of argument, that I did donate blood today,
So I hope there's some poor slav out there's going
to get polluted with my blood yet again.
Speaker 6: So and what was one of the questions they asked you,
did you spend more than six months in England right
in the eighties or nineties. And you know why they
asked you.
Speaker 1: That, Yes, because of the mad cow disease bringing mad
out disease.
Speaker 6: And I think that that may be one of the
one of the most important clues that we have for
this particular mystery.
Speaker 1: Well, and as you pointed out in your lecture and
also in the book, there's the chronic wasting disease which
has now taken over most of the northern tier of
the United States, which is the wild animal variant of
basically mad cow disease. And if you've done the research,
I mean I came across a fact and completely documented
that a friend of our families, her mother died of
mad cow disease, and it was covered up here in
Hunter and County, New Jersey about ten years ago now,
so it's out there. It's something to be concerned with,
you know, in your environmental monitoring. I thought about this
driving home from your lecture and that hast has some
great points of relevance in it because the question would
reasonably be asked, Well, the government, they have plenty of land,
they have plenty of research. Why don't they buy their
own herds and test them and monitor them. But they
do it. Yeah, and they do. But the point is that,
as you said, the locale of these animals in the
natural setting, in the food chain is not feasible to
pick one from this farm here and that farm there
as readily as it is to just go steal one
when they want it. I think there's great efficacy to
that argument, and I think that that may in fact
be one of the components or one of the groups,
or one of the missions that are behind us. But
it's the thing that I find most intriguing out of
all this is how do they pluck the animals away
from like this one that I covered with no noise
and no alarm. And then, you know, and I think
this goes back to a whole other level of discussion,
why do they drop them back in the same place,
Because it's very well vetted now that at least in
the sixties and seventies, the CIA and other organizations would
use UFO rhetoric or UFO misinformation, or allow UFO concern
or reports if you will, to cover otherwise explainable phenomenal
i e. You know, the SR seventy one or the
one seventeen flights well, let's let them call it's called
a UFO, and we'll send them down that mousehole, because
they'll never figure out that it's actually a military plane.
So saying or promoting or allowing it to be promoted
to some extent, whether it's correct or not, that it's
extraterrestrial and nature just covers the tracks of it's really not.
It's you know, it's the US military doing black ops
on some type of intervention or research. Is that a
reasonable statement to make it?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 7: I think so.
Speaker 6: And also I think my illustration of you know, the
version one point zero yes, not working well because the
animals would be stolen.
Speaker 7: No, that generates you know, Grand Dept. Report to the
county sheriff.
Speaker 10: And into local authorities, and so you know, you you
start to create a mass of paper trails and stuff,
and and you know, it just doesn't work if if
you don't if you take the animal.
Speaker 11: So if you leave the animal behind, you have the
plausible deniability, uh of the animal being just you know,
scavenge or whatever. And you know people people just you know,
dismiss it as as being misidentified scavenger action.
Speaker 7: Uh So, So anyway, yeah, is my mic kind of weird.
Speaker 1: Now yeah, yeah, it's a major change. Not really, No,
it sounds like it's switched over.
Speaker 7: Oh I accidentally.
Speaker 1: Somehow there you go.
Speaker 6: How's that that'll do it? Yes, cable, I got to
replace here. So anyway, it's it's the whole plausible deniability element.
That's Uh, I think that. I think you know, if
if if you leave the animal there, then you have
that that plausible deniability element, and plus by leaving the
animal there, look what you're doing. You're sending a signal.
You're sending a signal to law enforcement. You're sending a
signal to the ranching community. These areas in the United
States where these cases tend to cluster, I think the
most is where you have the most militant, well armed,
patriot type of communities. You have a lot of hunters
that live in these areas. Chronic wasting disease tends to
crop up in areas where you have more militia groups,
more gun toting patriots.
Speaker 7: Let's say that.
Speaker 6: Listen to Steve Quail and Alex Jones and whatever. So
you know, you're you're also kind of subtly sending a
message of impunity.
Speaker 7: Uh, You're you're showing.
Speaker 6: That that these that these ranchers in law enforcement concerns
are impotent, that they don't really have any recourse, they
can't really do much, and so you're there's a there's
societal control going on. And another thing too that I've
kind of been toying around with that nobody else really
has ever mentioned is the fact that many of these
areas of high incidents in the seventies, all these ranchers
are out of business now. Seventy to eighty percent of
ranches that were in business in nineteen seventy five at
the height of cattle in this country. We had more
cattle in this country, and Americans ate more beef per
person in nineteen seventy five than any other time before.
Since that was the peak, seventy to eighty percent of
these ranches are no longer in business. Instead, you have
these giant agro concerns in huge feed lots. So you
know there could be a political element to this, too
large ranch concerns possibly driving other smaller ranches out of business.
This is an element that I have some pretty good
information to back up this particular scenario in one or two.
Speaker 7: Pretty good examples.
Speaker 6: So you know there's hey, a big rich rancher trying
to scare away some of the smaller ranchers and buy
them out. Hey, go down, figure out a way to
mutilate some cattle, you know, put a little pressure on them,
get them to you know, give them a price. You know, hey,
let me buy up your your land. You're losing money.
There's more than just a little bit evidence to support
that particular theory as well, so you know, you have
a very it's a complicated scenario. Once you have an
effective way of scaring people, you know, other concerns, you know,
other groups or individuals might glom onto that and say, hey,
this works for them, so it might maybe it'll work
for us too. You know, there's a lot that you
can determine from taking soft tissue organs from livestock. It's
it's you know, a pretty there's no one size fits
all you know, rationale for doing that. There's several things
that you can accomplish with that that have to do
with monitoring the environment, either for medical or scientific purposes.
You know, putting social and political pressure on the ranching
community and and scaring people basically and keeping them under
the you know, the thumb of the political concerns that
might be vying for power or whatever. So you know,
it's it gets complicated. And that's why the book is
so in depth, because I try to trace back each
of these theories back to when they began and really
look at how these memes within the culture have unfolded
and glommed onto one another.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and without telling the listener what to
believe or not believe, because that's not how we operate.
But in terms of the control mechanism caused by the
fear factor and government's utilization of fear and will take
care of you. Look at what's happening in this country
since nine to eleven, from the underwear bomber to the anthrax.
That's a very effective method to control the population or
at least move the mindset in one direction or the other.
So I think that it's not hard for a reasonable
person to look at objectively, look at how how government
and corporations, you know, and I would ask the listener
to at least accept this at those levels of multimillions
and billions of dollars on the table, don't think that
anything is off the table in terms of you know,
what corporations are willing to do. As creepy as it sounds,
as unbelievable as it sounds, you know, the Karen Silkwoods
of this world can our testaments to everyone is expendable
and nothing is off the table. So as bizarre as
it might sound that we're using cattle mutilation or livestock
mutilation as a control mechanism or as a as a
motive or an operational procedure to push small ranchers out
and allow factory farming, if you will, factory ranching to
be more precise, to be put into place. I wouldn't
put anything past multinationals. And all we have to do
is look at the poster child for doing what's right
for the stockholders and wrong for the world. Go take
a look at Monsanto and what they've done, and the
and the and the grain farmers they've put out of
business through through lawsuits about patent infringements and nonsense like that.
Speaker 6: Just run and look at all the ex Monsanto vice
presidents that are on the uh you know, that work
for the FDA now.
Speaker 1: Exactly revolving door. I just watched a PBS special that
just outlined in detail the fact that that former corporate
all right, excuse me, former uh position holders in the
federal government are being offered bonuses if they'll come and
work for the Monsanto's, the multinationals, the ges, and whoever
might want to so. So it's it's outward and above
the board and documented that the revolving door is such
a tight knit group anymore that nobody even tries to
hide it. And you know it has become in the
we have this country and most other countries have allowed
multinationals to just usurp a governmental sovereignty. We are, truly,
by the literal definition and not the hysterical connotation. We
are we are in a fascist state on many levels.
I know I sound like Alex Jones now, but forgive me,
but but think about the leverage that billions of dollars
buy is just as much as the leverage and the
control that billions of dollars in black budget operations can purchase.
And you can understand that it's not hard to achieve
goals that perhaps are not ethical and fair on the surface.
I will, I will cease and desist continue on with
your story.
Speaker 6: No, that's I absolutely agree. I couldn't have set it
better myself. You know, I think one thing that should
always be at the forefront of our conversation when it
comes to cattle and beef is beef is the largest
income producing segment of agriculture. Okay, let's and the beef
lobby is the most powerful lobby in this country that
you will never hear anything about. And if you look
back at the efforts by the federal government back when
we really had a you know, a government that really
was concerned about the welfare of its citizens, back in
the eighteen nineties, when they first proposed the Sherman Anti
Trust as yeah, it was not. It was not proposed
initially to break up the railroads, you know, and Carnegie
Steel and Standard Oil. It was done to break up
the beef trust. And the beef trust was so powerful
it took the the outcry from the public over the
publication of Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle to really expose
the incredibly horrific working conditions within the meat packing industry
around Chicago and in the stockyards, and it took the
absolute outcry to politicians to do something about it. It
took twelve years to get the legislation passed, but it
was eventually passed. Now, the other really good. Glaring example
of the power of the meat industry would be Oprah
Winfrey blurting out I'll never eat another hamburger again, and
was instantly slapped with a two billion dollar lawsuit. I
mean the following day, I think, and it took her
a million dollars to beat it. She did win the lawsuit.
But know that's why I say, I eat beef. I
love beef. Beef is good, it tastes great. They're as
rare as you dare. I'm a beef eater. I love it,
you know, cold and blue in the middle. No, I
eat beef, and I'll continue to beef. But I'm able
to look down the hill at the herd that you
know it gets rendered, you know locally. I will not
eat processed beef. A single Hammiger at McDonald's. McDonald's admits
could have up to one hundred different animals and that
one Patty.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 6: Some people have come up with the figure of up
to a thousand animals could be represented in a single
McDonald's hambiger. But but all this is changing. Like I said,
Taco Bell is going all natural. Carls Junior has the
first fast food all natural antibiotic, steroid, you know, growth
hormone or fed You know, all these companies are reading
the writing on the wall. People are are there's there's,
dividends are plunging, the stock stock is going down. People
are not eating as much processed of food, not eating this.
Speaker 4: They've also taken a big hit though, too, because a
lot of the news reports in recent years in the
fast food industry talking about things like pink slime. You
know that that alone really threw them for a loop
and really turned a lot of people off the fast
food industry and they had to recover from that.
Speaker 1: I can, I can I relate it just to put
it in context for the listeners. I want to relate
a true story real quick. And I think that anybody
out there listening who has has kids or family that
they care about, and I and this goes back to
being able to locally source your food and know that
the guy down the road with the farm stand is
the guy you're buying your vegetables from. They're not truck
rightman coming in from you know, Mexico, from a DDT
farm down there. And I want and I covered the
American agriculture movement when I was out there as a
journalist for them, and I saw a lot of stuff
that make your head spin backwards. But I'm in I'm
doing a job over last not last March, the March
before in Manchester, England, and I have to tell you,
if you've ever been to England, God bless them. I'm
English at heart too. But the food is every bit
as bad as what they say it is. And after
about four or five days of eating you know, pea
soup for breakfast and all kinds of bizarre stuff, I
said to oh, yeah, really, it's like I asked for
a salad one night in the pub when I got
in there, and they were like, what do you mean
a salad? They didn't even know what it was. You
mean greens? And I was like, oh man, this is
not good. And I wonder everybody drinks and place, you
know plays rugby over there football anyway where I finally
found in a big mall a Burger King and I
told the guy from Holland that I was with, I said,
go in here, I'm going to get a hamburger. I'm
starving for some real food. As we're driving into the
two Park on the BBC Radio, the news story breaks
that they found out that the burger Kings in England
were selling horse meat that there was illegally brought in
through Ireland. I almost threw up in the car. He goes, hey,
hear what they're saying about Burger. I get out of here.
We can't eat here. Well, by the end of that week,
this is the God's honest truth. Go back and check
it out for yourself. It was March of the year
before left. Now it's spread. They're selling it, the horse
meat throughout all the supermarket chains. It's a major scandal.
Some Irish company was bringing the horse meat in and
of course they're saying, wait a minute, it's a delicacy
in France. They don't care about it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, but you're telling people it's beef and
it's got you know, you could see that the jockeys,
you know, marking in the hamburgers like you give me
a break. So the point of all this is, though,
goes back to factory how and Chris, this is a
major part of your concern and it's a side bar
that I think needs a lot of attention. You know,
what are we doing to these animals in order to
consume food, and your concern with that is a part
of this story that needs to be told because we're
all human beings and I think there's a way to
consume enough food to live on and do it in
a humane fashion. I never thought I would say things
like that, but I'll tell you, once you've been to
these factory slaughter houses like I have, you have a
different view on what's going on here. I only tell
you a real quick funny aside. You know the whole tuna.
Say you know dolphin safe tuna and all that. You know,
who gives a damn about the poor tuna that are
getting slaughtered by the millions? Like I go into restaurants
and I embarrass my family. I say, well, I want
to have a dolphin safe tuna. Well, I also want
to have tuna safe dolphin Okay, so I don't want
any tuna being slaughtered. Getting me that mahi mahi. I mean,
what difference does it make. It's okay to slaughter small fish,
but big fish we can't slaughter. It's okay to you know,
the whole it.
Speaker 6: Doesn't It doesn't matter, Bruce, We're radiating all the fish
exactly anyway.
Speaker 1: Thank you. By the way, was the last time you
saw a story about fukushim in the in the Yeah,
really that's right. Season one thirty seven makes you now
sushi sushi.
Speaker 6: Buyers are going with Geiger counters.
Speaker 1: Now, well, I have, having served in the coast Guard.
You know, some guys up and catch a can and
they said that the packing the packing plants now the
guys are standing there with Geiger counters when they come
to unload their catch, and if they are more than
thirty miles off and they have background radiation, that they
won't accept the fish. As a matter of fact, he
told me that the EU has already banned Pacific fish
fish from the EU, and I don't I haven't been
able to verify that, but he said, that's that's a
major hit, he said this year. And I have a
friend who I just saw on two days ago who
said that he's heading up for the season here in July,
and he said, there's major repercussions already because because they're
not stopping it. Three thousand tons of polluted waters going
in the Pacific every day. Boys, nobody's stopping it. So anyway,
I mean to get you off, but talk to a
about the unbelievable treatment that we you know, when we
see it in the starrofoam pack wrapped that goes on
in these factory farms.
Speaker 6: It's you know, a head of livestock is slaughtered every second,
twenty four hours a day in this country, every second
of every minute of every hour. Some of these plants
can render up to four hundred animals an hour in
a single plant. The animals are crammed together in the
most unbelievably unsanitary conditions. You have tens and tens and
tens of thousands of animals waiting around and urine and feces.
In order to get them, you know, protect them from
all the obvious bacteria they have to you know, pump
them full of antibiotics, which you know, I mean, if
you look at the amount of antibiotics used in this country,
eighty percent of them going to cattle to protect them
from these feedlock conditions. And then of course to get
them out of there quicker. Instead of them eating grass
like their bodies are designed to assimilate grass, they pump
them full of up to seventeen hundred pounds of grain
in order to gain four hundred pounds of weight, and
then they pump them full of growth hormones so they'll
grow quicker, so they can get them out of this
unsanitary conditions and slaughter them quicker. So you have this, this,
this this nasty kind of self perpetuating morass of unhealthy conditions,
get trying to get them out by growth hormones, protecting
them with antibiotics, and of course this all goes into
the meat. And we're wondering why nine year old girls
are going into puberty.
Speaker 7: You know, it's just it's it's horrific.
Speaker 6: And you know, if just one fit fact and factoid
that constantly is a mind blower. If we took just
the grain that we feed cattle in this country, if
we took that grain and sped it around the world
to feed starving people, the two billions starving people on
the planet, there would be no starving people on the planet.
Speaker 1: The water consumption, it's the water consumption. It's just astronomical to.
Speaker 6: Have at And they are the largest polluters of fresh water.
Cattle by far the largest natural polluters of fresh water.
They're the second largest producer of ozone, depleting gases colsberper
fart every two minutes and and release billions of tons
of methane into the atmosphere, which is a ozone depleting gas.
Cattle being stuck in one spot and not being able
to move across the environment is the largest source of
the creation of deserts.
Speaker 11: Uh.
Speaker 6: The single largest reason that we're burning down the rainforest
is to make room for more cattle. I mean, I
could go on and on and on. Cattle are very
detrimental to the environment when they're raised in the in
the industrialized way that they are with big agro. They
they're actually very good for the environment if you allow
them to move move across the environment.
Speaker 1: I mean, for for.
Speaker 6: Thousands of years, buffalo but you know, sixty seventy million
buffalo moved across the Great Plains and and and created
one of the most fertile bread baskets in the world.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 6: With their with their magratory routes, and in the way
that they they're they're they're done with you know, helps
fertilize the soil and and uh. And you know, the
the action of the of the of the hoofs would
till the soil and aerate it. I mean, if you
stick them all in one place, I don't know. I'm
sure many of your listeners have been downwind of a
feed lot.
Speaker 1: You can spell them forty forty miles away away. It's
unbelievable how far away you can. What the hell has
that smelled? You take some place that.
Speaker 7: The wind switches, Oh my good.
Speaker 1: And and I'll tell you if you think that's bad,
don't go down to Maryland and go and see what
they do with chickens, because that'll make your eyeballs follow
your head. Or pig farms. Chickens they don't, can't even
stand up. They go to six pounds, where in natural
state they would have been a pound and a half.
They're so nooked up it's you have to wear rubber
gloves when you when you're throwing them in the fryer.
It's unbelievable. The genetic mutations that have been dye.
Speaker 7: You can't even call them chickens anymore.
Speaker 1: Now. They don't look like he's a chicken picker in
high school.
Speaker 6: Every three months I go out and and you know,
get four chickens per hand, stuff them in the crates
on the semi And you know, I've I've been like you,
I've I've done my my due diligence and gone and
investigated factory farming. I've been up close and personal, uh
to how these animals are raised, processed and uh and
brought to that little styrofoam container and plastic grabbed in
a supermarket near you. I think if every kid in
this country, or on the planet for that matter, at
least in the Western world, went through a three day
course that taught them exactly what happens to an animal
from the birth canal to the styrophone, we would immediately
have a lot less meat eaters in this country. It's
pretty horrific what goes on and how how this is
impacting human health. And it's it's a huge it's a
huge health you know, emerging health crisis. I think in
this country. Of course, we haven't even started talking about
preon disease.
Speaker 1: We haven't start.
Speaker 6: Talking about mad cow. You know, it just it goes
from bad to worse. You know, you mentioned the anthrax
attacks before. Where does where's anthrax come from?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 1: Thank you ever heard of scabies? Folks?
Speaker 6: Do you?
Speaker 1: I mean, do you understand? You know, how about sixteen
million head of cattle being burned in England because they
you know, the breakout.
Speaker 7: Of five but who's counting.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, did I say sixteen millionaire get sixteen million
pounds or something? Well?
Speaker 7: What a probably tons? But but again who's counting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Between the outbreak of mac cow disease in eighty six
that ran rampant through the UK cattle herds for ten
years and then the ensuing hoof and mouth disease, four
point five million cal every head of livestock in the
United Kingdom was killed and cremated to eradicate foot and
mouth disease and mad cow disease. And at the time
they didn't realize that the prions, the active ingredient that
brings you mad cow disease, can survive in the bonash.
And there's still some question where all that bonash ended up.
Probably in fertilizer.
Speaker 1: Yep. Well, let's go back to the what I understand
and correct me if I'm wrong. But the as was
proven through a Nobel Prize winning scientist who worked with
one of the last cannibalistic tribes in Papua New Guinea
improved in over a generation that he could stop the
the onset of what was Alzheimer's and and and and
uh uh Krusch filed Yakob's disease and.
Speaker 6: You move it was it Peru crew was the disease
in New Guinea in New Guinea, which is the same
as Koutzveeld documents disease, which is a variant of it.
Speaker 1: Variant of it. Right. But anyway, the principle here is
that when you take animal protein and feed it to
itself a a ka. Cannibalism, which is what pre Purina
and some of the large grain dealers and livestock feeders
were doing after World War Two, that that we initiated
the onset. And then there was always the argument that
couldn't change it, couldn't cross the species barrier. Well, that
guy kind of got thrown out the window when they
proved that it could, but nobody wanted to admit it.
So correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, You've done a
lot more research in the me. But I've done a
lot of work with pharmaceuticals and a lot of pharmaceutical
companies that have h you know, veterinary medicine components to them. Uh.
And this is the dirty little secret that we kind
of made the problem ourselves to a great extent.
Speaker 6: Uh. Yeah, And and one one of the more alarming statistics.
I don't want to get two alarmists here, but but
in England they did a study and they they've revised
their numbers for the the outbreak of kootzveeld Dacob's disease
or mad cow disease in humans. It used to be, uh,
there'll be a spontaneous case in nature just you know,
one in a million people was the figure for many years.
That was you'll consider it to be accurate by the
medical community. You know, if if you were that unlucky
millionth person, you spontaneously you know, had kutzveild Jacob's disease,
which is one hundred percent fatal. It's peon's misfold of
proteins that that that can cause other proteins to misfold.
There's a thousand times smaller than the smallest virus, which is,
you know, the smallest life form. You can't really kill them,
you can only kind of turn them off, but it
takes up to three thousand degrees. Once these preons start misfolding,
they literally turn your brain tissue and nerve nerve tissue
basically into like Swiss cheese. So interrupts synaptic function. You
forget to, you know, to breathe, You forget to you know,
you know, your autonomic and metabolic processes or are compromised
and you usually die of pneumonia or you know, some
sort of infection. It makes AIDS look like a hiccup
in terms of its one hundred percent fatality. It has
up to a forty year incubation period. What they have
found out now in England is that instead of one
in a million people developing this disease, there was one
study that said as many as one in two hundred
people now in England are developing dementia type diseases, which
which include Kopsfeld Dakum's disease, and that that that's that's
a really that's a catastrophic figure and it's a again
it's an emerging health crisis that we haven't we haven't
seen very much UH coverage in the media about because
of the political clout that the ago you know, the
largest income producing segment of agriculture has on the media.
And we're seeing a two thousand increase in the last
twenty years of dementia type deaths in humans. In other words,
people that you know, UH have dementia type symptoms that
may mirror that may look like Alzheimer's, but it's not Alzheimer's,
and you know, Alzheimer's can be diagnosed. It's it's a
plaque that builds up in the brain. However, there are
a lot of deaths that are not Alzheimer's that are
demensia type deaths. People you know, going into uh, into
these vegetative states and and then forgetting you know, and
just dying by invasive infections and other things. We've seen
a two thousand increase in these deaths. And all dementia
deaths are not autopsy.
Speaker 1: No, And that's the point there that they don't report it.
Speaker 6: They don't really know what is actually killing people that
die from dementia like symptoms. Some of these people are
dying of Alzheimer's, and we're seeing a remarkable increase in
alzheimer deaths as well. But we there may be some
sort of tie in with with these types of deaths
and uh, some form of of you know, this mad
cout disease and preon disease. So you know, I don't
know enough about the science. This is one of the
areas that I'm really working diligently at becoming up to
speed on I have a couple of people that that
I've been in contact with that are working in the
medical community, doctors who are working with Alzheimer cases and
and doing Alzheimer's research. I really want to become more
up to speed in this area. I don't want to
miss misspeak about some of these desks, but there is
I can say with all confidence that we are seeing
a very alarming increase in the number of dementia deaths,
which are the types of symptoms that one would expect
from from you know, Kutsfield, jackober mad cow disease in humans.
Speaker 1: So you could understand tying it back into your book,
that there's a there's a very real need to track
any type of abnormalities that are associated with our consumption
of livestock.
Speaker 6: Absolutely absolutely change and the first you know, and to
make it even more sinister, you know this this whole
idea of you. You mentioned Daniel Guchek, who was the
Nobel Prize winner for medicine in nineteen seventy six. He
was the first one to identify kuru, which was in
the brains of people that the brains of their relatives
who died in Papula New Guinea, in this very primitive
tribe of the for A people in Papua New Guinea,
when grandfather would die, they would have a ritual they
would eat his brain and it they think that that
is what created these outbreaks of kuru in the forties,
fifties and sixties. Well, he identified this. He was kind
of like a medical James Bond. He went around looking
for exotic pathogens and stuff around the world. And according
to Comb Kellerher a microbiologist who used to work with
the National Institute for Discovery Sciences NIDS, Robert Bigelow's Bunch,
he wrote a very good book called Brain Trust, and
in that book he claims that Guchev brought these brains
back to the Army Chemical Corps and they started messing
around with them to possibly weaponize them or come up
with defenses against versions of this pathogen being weaponized and
used against us. And it's his contention that these these
prions got loose into nature, that they didn't have a
complete control and they didn't have these things quarantined well enough.
These animals who were given these these misfold of proteins
that they got loose into the environment. And we do
have outbreaks of prion disease that occurred in Wisconsin, in Maryland,
in Wyoming, and in Colorado. And the Wyoming and Colorado
outbreaks are most noteworthy because the most recent outbreak of
chronic wasting disease, which is which is how these proteins
are described in deer and elk. The most recent outbreak
happened in October nineteen ninety seven, and this outbreak has
spread all throughout the eastern half of the country now.
And so if you are a deer hunter and you
live in upstate York, or you live in Michigan, or
you live in Oklahoma or anywhere west of the Rocky
Mountains west of the Continental Divide, you better be checking
that brain, uh, turning that head in for testing before
you render and eat that animal, because there's you know,
chronic wasting diseases. You know, nothing to write home home
about it. I mean, I wouldn't want to, you know,
wish it on, you know, on grandpa or grandma or whomever.
And I find it interesting that a lot of the
areas where these hunters are hunting these animals are in
areas where you have you know, pretty active militia groups
and stuff. It's just it's it's a very sticky web
when you really start to dig into it.
Speaker 4: And uh, I guess, you know, for for someone like
me who is not as well versed in this, I
would have to ask you what is the connection then
between areas with these militia groups and areas that have
this wasting disease.
Speaker 6: They're hunters, They're going to consume this. They're gonna go
out and shoot a deer and eat it.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 6: And if you look at a map of outbreaks of
chronic wasting disease and then look at a map of
where your most you know, your most organized and prevalent
militia groups patriots are, is pretty interesting correlation there. Ahead
It's easy to find online. Fact that I think I
have a couple of graphs in my book.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no doubt and I'm going off of
a field here, but I would encourage the listeners to
investigate themselves. Go take a look at the Patriot Act.
Go take a look at Patriot IWO. Go take a
look at executive orders, Go take a look at the
changes the Defense Act that go, you know, go verify
for yourself. You know, you don't have to believe me.
It's an obvious fact that or pose coma Tatis was removed.
So Mark, to answer your question, guys that want to
carry their own weapons and have that states' rights, you know,
people forget that this country And I don't want to
sundll like once again, like I'm going off on an
Alex Jones here, but this country is a is a
is a we're independent states formed with the Federal Union.
You know, it's it's not America, it's the United States
of America, just like the ironically, the you know, the
Russian Republic, uh and the Soviet Union was a bunch
of theoretically independent states under an umbrella. That kind of
that kind of mentality is being pushed further and further
out of the mainstream today that you know, it's federal government,
central control and central uh uh control of on on
all levels. So is there a correlation? Maybe not, and
and I don't and speaking for Christopher, I don't think
he's he's you know, guaranteeing you that there's a hard
connection there. But it is a little ironic and and
it's also less than probably coincidental that these correlations exist
and they're pretty prominent when you look at the documentation
he has in the book. And yeah, I encourage people
to look for themselves.
Speaker 7: I mean, you know, yeah, yeah again.
Speaker 6: And I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm not standing
up here and saying that that's why catemulations are occurring,
or why chronic wasting disease. Has it just happened to
have have spread through the environment to these particular locations.
I'm just pointing out, like Bruce is saying, it's it's
very ironic to me that you find, you know, more
than just a loose correlation here. You know, I'm not
saying that's by design. I'm just saying it's just, you know,
it's just one other thing to look at when you're
looking at this entire mystery in Toto, you really have
to you have to look at it from all angles.
You can't factor anything in and you can't factor anything out.
You just have to let the data, you know, sort
of lead you in the right direction and lead you
to your conclusions. And I'm looking at everything. I'm not,
you know, I'm I I love my country.
Speaker 7: I love my.
Speaker 6: Government, especially when when when when it's functioning properly and
it's not been you know, been totally compromised by by
corporate interests in uh, in big money in politics. I
think we're going down a slippery slope in this country.
I think, uh, you know, issues like human health and
corporate involvement in in uh, you know, legislating the sanctity
of human health and legislating our elective process.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 6: Corporations are just there. They have too much power in
this country. And you know, the F word was bantered
about earlier fashion, you know, a fascist state. Uh, We're
not quite there yet, although some people would argue with that,
but man, I'll tell you it's right around the corner,
and it's it's it shows like this that finally, you know, can.
Speaker 7: Possibly help people get mobilized.
Speaker 6: And in the Internet, it's a perfect vehicle while it
lasts in its current state, is a perfect vehicle to
organize and get people educated.
Speaker 7: I mean, we need to get educated well stated.
Speaker 1: But before we let you go and thank you for
spending two hours of your time with us, tell us
how the listeners said they can get a hold of
your books, where you're going to be talking, where you're
going to be presenting, and so that we can let
people look further into this with you.
Speaker 6: Well, I won't be a conflict in the desert. Oh,
contact in the desert. I'm not planning any speaking engagements
here in the near future, but you can hear me
every Saturday night, late night early Sunday morning on the
para cast at the paracast.
Speaker 7: Dot com t H E.
Speaker 1: P A R A C A s T.
Speaker 6: Dot com the sixty Minutes of the Paranormal. We have
great guests on every week. We've been going for eight years.
My website is our Strange planet dot com. We live
on a strange planet and it's our Strange Planet dot com.
That's where you can get copies of my books. I'll
sign them and autograph them in number stocking the herd
for you. So again, I appreciate you guys inviting me
back on the show, and you know, onwards and upwards,
keep doing a good job like you're doing. It was
great seeing you the last year in Trenton.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much for coming on, Christopher.
Speaker 5: We really enjoyed talking to you tonight.
Speaker 1: Folks, get those books and read them. It'll scare the
Jesus out of you, but you need to open your
eyes it will. That's true. Hey, man, keep up the
good work. Stay cool out there this summer, will you, buddy, Yeah,
well we'll do it.
Speaker 7: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks a million, Chris.
Speaker 5: Well, that was a really good show. I really enjoy
talking to him tonight.
Speaker 1: He's I mean, it's you can't cover all the material
that he spent ten years collecting, and he is so
meticulous in that book. And I didn't mean to get
off a field, but I think you can't look at
this stuff in a very narrow context. And one of
the good things about will A Christopher, in my mind,
as an investigator, approaches it, he's not monolithic in his approach.
He said, Hey, look, it looks to me like this
is a major portion of it. But there's some high
strangest strangeness in that that just doesn't fit the mold. So, Mark,
it's been a great show. I appreciate it. Thank our listeners,
and by the way, our bells coming in July, so
stay tuned to Dark Matter, Keith, Thanks Amelia for all
your help. Mark look forward to having next week's show.
Speaker 4: All right then, thanks thanks a lot, Bruce, and thanks
for everyone else for listening to Unknown Origins Radio. We'll
catch you next Thursday night at eight pm Eastern Standard
time here in the Dark Matter Radio Network.
Speaker 5: Have a great night everybody.
Speaker 1: Thanks for being with us. Be safe, folks, have a
great weekend.