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<v Speaker 1>Oh he is, folks, it's show tied.

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<v Speaker 2>People say, good money to see this movie. When they

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<v Speaker 2>go out to a theater.

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<v Speaker 3>They want cold sodas, pop popcorn, and no monsters in

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<v Speaker 3>the protection booth.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring.

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<v Speaker 2>Cut it off.

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<v Speaker 4>I got a job.

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<v Speaker 2>Got a job or do a job?

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<v Speaker 4>Kind a job, a real job. Hey, I ask good name,

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<v Speaker 4>Oh Fell, When do you want me back?

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<v Speaker 5>Let's say one week, one week.

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<v Speaker 6>Whatever you do.

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<v Speaker 5>Think of the children.

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<v Speaker 6>First.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna walk into the room.

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<v Speaker 2>And sometime I've gotta come.

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<v Speaker 4>I gotta come.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike White.

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<v Speaker 2>Join me once again as mister Jedediah Ayers be in

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<v Speaker 2>the Movies Tanto. Also back in the booth is mister

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<v Speaker 2>Spencer Parsons.

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<v Speaker 7>I think Salivation Army has added to my permanent lexicon.

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<v Speaker 2>After The Brave, our look at rare, overlooked or seldom

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<v Speaker 2>seen films continues with one that is relatively easy to

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<v Speaker 2>find outside of these United States. The Brave, based on

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<v Speaker 2>the book by Gregory MacDonald yes the guy that wrote Fletch,

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<v Speaker 2>and adapted by Paul McCudden. The film stars and was

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<v Speaker 2>directed by Johnny Depp. Here he plays Raphael, a Native

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<v Speaker 2>American who, in desperate need of money for his family,

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<v Speaker 2>decides to sell himself to a group of shady men

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<v Speaker 2>who cast him in a snuff film. We will be

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<v Speaker 2>spoiling this film as we go ahead, so if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't want anything ruined, track down the movie. Like I said,

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<v Speaker 2>it's available on dvdvia import, but never officially released in

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<v Speaker 2>the US for reasons Jenny did. Was this a first

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<v Speaker 2>time watch for you?

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<v Speaker 4>Actually no, I saw it probably twenty years ago, a

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<v Speaker 4>little bit more than that. I was working at a

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<v Speaker 4>bookstore and there was another cinema nut there and he

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<v Speaker 4>had a copy of it and he loaned it to me.

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<v Speaker 4>Actually he had, I think he had a VHS copy

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<v Speaker 4>of it that he longed to me, So I'm not

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<v Speaker 4>sure where he got that.

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<v Speaker 1>But I watched it and.

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<v Speaker 5>I remembered it.

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<v Speaker 4>It was memorable, but it didn't make a big I

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<v Speaker 4>didn't spend a lot of time thinking about it in

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<v Speaker 4>the last twenty years before before this opportunity to talk

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<v Speaker 4>about it. Yeah, I've watched it a couple of times recently,

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<v Speaker 4>and my impression of it has improved. I do think

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<v Speaker 4>it's a little more noteworthy than I originally thought.

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<v Speaker 7>How about you, Spencer, Yeah, this is my first time

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<v Speaker 7>seeing it, though its reputation really precedes it. Victorious premiere

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<v Speaker 7>can that I remember reading about back in the day,

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<v Speaker 7>and it definitely is the kind of thing that had

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<v Speaker 7>it been available in the United States more easily, I

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<v Speaker 7>would definitely have wanted to check it out, but kinda

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<v Speaker 7>forgot about it for a.

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<v Speaker 1>Long time because it just wasn't very available.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I was excited to finally check it out, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 7>we'll get into it.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think it's a really fascinating, singular kind of movie.

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<v Speaker 1>It's nothing else.

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<v Speaker 7>Quite like it, and a lot more actually, a lot

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<v Speaker 7>more interesting than I expected initial response. It definitely suggested

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<v Speaker 7>something more incompetent than I think this is. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 7>I'm excited to dig in.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember the con well of the kind response.

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<v Speaker 2>How was that.

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<v Speaker 1>Treated as a total embarrassment?

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<v Speaker 7>Johnny Depp is quoted in one place a hard experience

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<v Speaker 7>for him, maybe harder than I think he led on

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<v Speaker 7>he took a punk rock fuck you sort of response

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<v Speaker 7>to American critics. But yeah, he talked about feeling attacked,

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<v Speaker 7>like how dare he direct a film in the responses,

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<v Speaker 7>and you know, I'll be honest, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Like cutting down this kind of hated film.

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<v Speaker 7>From festivals like con and generally it's a little easier

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<v Speaker 7>to eventually catch up with them.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, just I guess because of when it happened.

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<v Speaker 7>Too much time passed before maybe I could have chased

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<v Speaker 7>it down and I lost some interest. But yeah, it

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<v Speaker 7>was really despised and was treated as incompetent and an

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<v Speaker 7>embarrassment not just to Johnny Depp but token for running it,

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<v Speaker 7>which I think is more telling about the people that

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<v Speaker 7>have that opinion. And that's without thinking that it's a

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<v Speaker 7>really great film. I just think this is the kind

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<v Speaker 7>of thing where you're telling on yourself a bit. If

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<v Speaker 7>this is the biggest embarrassment you've ever witnessed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm very curious to talk about that as we

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<v Speaker 2>go along, because this one, yeah, you wave a lost

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<v Speaker 2>film in front of my nose or a you shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be watching this kind of movie, and I'm all right there,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, okay, well, now I need to track this

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<v Speaker 2>thing down. So I think I tracked it down probably

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<v Speaker 2>ninety eight, ninety nine something like that, and it's the

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<v Speaker 2>thrill of the chase rather than the actual Once you

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<v Speaker 2>get it in your hand, it's like, Okay, it's going

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<v Speaker 2>up on the shelf and I kind of forget about it.

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<v Speaker 2>One of these days, I'm going to watch that movie.

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<v Speaker 2>And it just sounded so fucking depressing. I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>this guy sells himself to be in a snuff film. Okay, Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>how am I going to process that? And yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>not the most uplifting film in the world because the

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<v Speaker 2>material itself is so depressing. But I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>handled with a lot of respect. I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>a really good adaptation. I mean, we'll hear from Paul

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<v Speaker 2>mccutten later on, and he doesn't necessarily like this adaptation.

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<v Speaker 2>For him, it's strayed a lot from where he was

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<v Speaker 2>going with the screenplay. It was ironic. I was watching

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<v Speaker 2>some press conferences and interviews from that period of time

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<v Speaker 2>at con and Depp is like, oh, yeah, well, I

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<v Speaker 2>wrote the first draft. I'm like, no, you didn't. You

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<v Speaker 2>and your brother rewrote the draft and changed some things around,

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<v Speaker 2>but you didn't write the first draft of this, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was going around before. I don't know if it

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<v Speaker 2>was the stuff too that happened before this movie was

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<v Speaker 2>made that also colored what happened.

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<v Speaker 7>I tend to think, So this is one where I

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<v Speaker 7>think this is a film mody in the truest sense.

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<v Speaker 1>It is cursed, is like truly a cursed film.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree. And it's really weird too, because I was

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<v Speaker 2>looking at other movies, like I just watched Fletch Live recently,

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<v Speaker 2>and I really have never gotten into the Fletch phenomenon

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<v Speaker 2>until starting to do this Chevy Chase podcast that we

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<v Speaker 2>also do, so that was really my excuse. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was maybe the second time I ever watched the

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<v Speaker 2>original Fletch, and then second time watching Fletch Lives was

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<v Speaker 2>just a couple of weeks ago. I didn't realize that

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<v Speaker 2>McDonald's work had been adapted one other time with a

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<v Speaker 2>movie called Running Scared from seventy two that David Hemmings directed,

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<v Speaker 2>and that is also a lost film, as in, I

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<v Speaker 2>cannot you know me, you know, the guy who's such

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<v Speaker 2>a mad dog when it comes to tracking down movies.

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot find that movie whatsoever. And I'm like, so

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<v Speaker 2>two of this guy's adaptations are lost to America and

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<v Speaker 2>one of them is lost to the world. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I watched Confess Fletch, so nothing to do with this whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 4>I was really happy for the chance to rewatch Confess.

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<v Speaker 5>I really loved that movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a lot of fun, right. I really thought

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<v Speaker 2>that John Hamm captured that pretty darn well.

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<v Speaker 8>Though.

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<v Speaker 2>I have to say that the original Fletch films that

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<v Speaker 2>that was kind of ideal for chevy Chase. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why he didn't make a third, or fourth

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<v Speaker 2>or fifth. It seems like it was ready made for

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<v Speaker 2>him to be in a series. I guess maybe because

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<v Speaker 2>Fletch Lives didn't do that well and that one wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>based on McDonald at all, just based on the characters.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think they made a poor mistake by not

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<v Speaker 2>actually adapting the books like they should have.

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<v Speaker 4>My guess is that would just be a budgetary thing,

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<v Speaker 4>like more expensive to license another book, rather than it's

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<v Speaker 4>something new what the character you already have a license for.

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<v Speaker 2>So the film really takes place for me in about

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<v Speaker 2>three main locations. There's the office building that he goes

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<v Speaker 2>to where he meets Marshall Bell, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>the same office building where he meets Marlon Brando. Marlon

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<v Speaker 2>Brando who had worked with depth on what was it

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<v Speaker 2>don Juan DeMarco, So I guess they had become fast

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<v Speaker 2>friends at that point. That was also a big selling

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<v Speaker 2>point of this is, Oh, look at Marlon Brando's in

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<v Speaker 2>this movie, and he does a fine job. Tho he's

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<v Speaker 2>only in what one scene, really and then he shows

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<v Speaker 2>up towards the end. But I don't know if those

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<v Speaker 2>almost look like outtakes towards the end, like they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>get this guy for a second day. They probably just

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<v Speaker 2>paid him a million dollars for one day kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>It looks a lot different at the end.

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<v Speaker 4>So the first scene he's in, he's got that long

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<v Speaker 4>hair is all a mess, and he looks very bedraggled,

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<v Speaker 4>and then at the end all the hairs pulled back

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<v Speaker 4>a tight ponytail, and he looks a lot more put together,

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<v Speaker 4>and wish we understood why he's not playing harmonica.

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<v Speaker 5>At the end.

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<v Speaker 7>I think there's a little bit of a comment in

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<v Speaker 7>the book that didn't quite make it into the movie,

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<v Speaker 7>where the title of the book is the title of

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<v Speaker 7>the film, the snuff film that he's going to take,

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<v Speaker 7>which I think comes out of the tradition of very

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<v Speaker 7>careless ethnic casting of Native Americans in Hollywood movies.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyone that's looked ethnic could be cast.

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<v Speaker 7>Is that great joke in Blazing Saddles with the Yiddish

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<v Speaker 7>speaking Indians as big as ay and DNA laben they

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<v Speaker 7>dark and.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not whop.

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<v Speaker 7>And then of course, thinking about Johnny Depp playing Tanto

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<v Speaker 7>in The Lone Ranger several years later and the kind

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<v Speaker 7>of blow up around representation that started, it's really interesting.

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<v Speaker 7>It's different time, but I do suspect that there would

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<v Speaker 7>have been some similar blowback if it had been released

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<v Speaker 7>in American theaters at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>It's certainly not nearly the same.

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<v Speaker 7>As with The Lone Ranger, but that's one of the

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<v Speaker 7>aspects of the film that is, you know, once like

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<v Speaker 7>really a fascinating attempt to try to understand something and

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<v Speaker 7>also in a very problematic tradition of using Native Americans

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<v Speaker 7>indigenous people in America as allegories for all manner of

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<v Speaker 7>different problems in the world. And I did find it

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<v Speaker 7>interesting that the screenwriter was really disappointed that his christ

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<v Speaker 7>allegory was scrubbed out of it, and that.

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<v Speaker 1>Definitely is something that's also in the book.

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<v Speaker 7>But I'll be frank, I think That's one of Johnny

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<v Speaker 7>Depp's good moves in fact, because the situation and it

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<v Speaker 7>is a very stripped down kind of allegorical treatment. There

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<v Speaker 7>definitely scenes that are highly allegorical messages built in throughout

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<v Speaker 7>the film, but I think just embracing that sense of

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<v Speaker 7>how allegorizing Native Americans in American history, not very directly

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<v Speaker 7>and not importing kind of Christian mythology into it.

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<v Speaker 9>For a Norman Steel Lesson, I'm a writer, Ted oakming

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<v Speaker 9>a lot of thing right as Gum and Go, we

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<v Speaker 9>always need Indians.

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<v Speaker 2>Marlon Brando famously all about Native American causes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having sesshin little feather go and pick up his oscar

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<v Speaker 2>and everything at the ceremony where he was supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>win for what was that The Godfather? I think so

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<v Speaker 2>this movie really addresses a lot of problems that Native

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<v Speaker 2>Americans were having at the time and probably still having

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<v Speaker 2>today and just being completely disenfranchised. That was interesting. In

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<v Speaker 2>the book, they don't really ever say for sure that

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<v Speaker 2>he is Native American. They say, oh, are you Italian?

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<v Speaker 2>Are you Mexican?

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<v Speaker 3>Are you this?

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<v Speaker 10>Are you that?

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<v Speaker 2>And they just kind of assume that he's an Indian.

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<v Speaker 7>It also feels like Depp's approach to it is to

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<v Speaker 7>treat this as I want a horrifying crime, but also

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<v Speaker 7>more of a philosophical experiment.

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<v Speaker 1>This notion of.

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<v Speaker 7>Death and what the image of someone dying and or

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<v Speaker 7>pain can reveal is the pitch from Brando's character, whereas

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<v Speaker 7>in the book and in the original screenplay it is

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<v Speaker 7>much more of a to be quite frank intended's pornography.

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<v Speaker 7>And I find that to be an interesting divergence in

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<v Speaker 7>this movie, because again, this is all tricky and problematic,

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<v Speaker 7>but in another interesting way, it speaks directly to not

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<v Speaker 7>merely the exploitation of Indigenous people, which it takes as

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<v Speaker 7>a given, but it also deals with this idea of

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<v Speaker 7>indigenous people as a kind of allegory thought experiment for

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<v Speaker 7>the benefit of white people. Found that to be an

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<v Speaker 7>interesting take because obviously then the movie itself is.

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<v Speaker 1>Doing the thing that I think it means to critique.

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<v Speaker 7>There is this history that is very uneasy that I

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<v Speaker 7>felt that moment of the film drawing on in a

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<v Speaker 7>way that I wouldn't as I call it deep, because

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<v Speaker 7>I think it's so sparse. The scene is so sparse,

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<v Speaker 7>and it's referential, so I don't know that I can

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<v Speaker 7>really quite make an argument that it's mounting a philosophical case,

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<v Speaker 7>but at the same time it's referring to I think

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<v Speaker 7>a bigger philosophical idea than the notion of pornographic snuff film.

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<v Speaker 1>Doug.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it was a good call by Depth

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<v Speaker 4>to take it out of the screenplay because it was

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<v Speaker 4>in that original screenplay too, pretty much straight out of

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<v Speaker 4>the book, and it's a horrifying description of what awaits

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<v Speaker 4>in is. The idea of it is heavy enough to cast.

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<v Speaker 4>As you said, we were already maybe avoiding it because

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<v Speaker 4>we know what the plot is and it sounds so

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<v Speaker 4>so depressing. That might have really taken it over the

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<v Speaker 4>edge with that end film.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like whole ironized Cody thing. This guy what

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00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.079
<v Speaker 2>he was actually Sicilian, but he became like the most

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<v Speaker 2>famous Native American that we ever saw on screen. He's

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<v Speaker 2>the guy who's like crying in the commercial and stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say, Yeah, it's just like I think

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<v Speaker 2>Depth can pass if he wanted to, and he kind

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<v Speaker 2>of does in this He looks very natural amongst the

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<v Speaker 2>actual Native Americans. And then you get you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>Louis Guzman and I'm trying to remember the other actor's name,

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<v Speaker 2>so they're more Latino, but I think it's just like

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00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:36.039
<v Speaker 2>again disenfranchised people, so it really becomes I mean, like

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<v Speaker 2>the place where Depp and all of his friends live

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<v Speaker 2>is a literal garbage stump, like they are the scavengers

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<v Speaker 2>of the world, just going through the garbage stump and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to fix things up, resell things. You meet the

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<v Speaker 2>Frederick Forrest character who's got this weird oh voice that

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<v Speaker 2>he's doing in here with his I guess maybe mentally

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<v Speaker 2>challenged son played by Max Perlick, who used to be

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<v Speaker 2>like what Parker Posey was to women roles in independent films,

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<v Speaker 2>Max Perlock was to male roles in independent films insofar

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<v Speaker 2>as he would show up in everything. It was like

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<v Speaker 2>I think him and Steve Zoon probably had like a

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<v Speaker 2>turf war as far as who's like the most indie

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<v Speaker 2>of the independent actors, and he was everywhere for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time. I think he even shows up in Dead Man,

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<v Speaker 2>which is another movie where Johnny Depp plays a Native

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<v Speaker 2>American as well, playing William Blake. Though wait, actually I

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00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:38.440
<v Speaker 2>take that back. He's adopted by the Native Americans. He's

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00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.400
<v Speaker 2>not a Native American in that one, because there is

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<v Speaker 2>an actual Native American, if not more than one. But

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<v Speaker 2>I do remember the one guy, yeah, like really telling

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<v Speaker 2>him off, which was pretty great. It's been a long

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00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.799
<v Speaker 2>time since I've seen that movie, but I remember really

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00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.039
<v Speaker 2>really enjoying it when I saw it, And yeah, you're

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00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:58.640
<v Speaker 2>right about the whole thing with the snuff film that

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<v Speaker 2>they want to make. They actually tell him because they

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00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.880
<v Speaker 2>don't talk too much about it in this but they

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00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.359
<v Speaker 2>really go into a lot of detail in the book

301
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:09.920
<v Speaker 2>for sure, but talking about how they want to put

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00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:13.279
<v Speaker 2>like a white stripe across his nose like war paint,

303
00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:16.200
<v Speaker 2>and just really, yeah, play it up this whole thing,

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00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Like I think they'll probably even put like a feather

305
00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.519
<v Speaker 2>in his head kind of thing in his hair, just

306
00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.599
<v Speaker 2>to be like, oh, yeah, here's this brave Native American

307
00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:27.039
<v Speaker 2>and we're killing this person. And some of the details

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00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.519
<v Speaker 2>they go into in the book, and I like that.

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00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.920
<v Speaker 2>McDonald actually in the beginning of the book is just like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a chapter in here that is really rough to read,

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00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.480
<v Speaker 2>but I really had to put it in here. If

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00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.519
<v Speaker 2>you want to skip it, go ahead and skip it.

313
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<v Speaker 2>But I really had to have this here because it

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00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:46.440
<v Speaker 2>looms over the rest of the book.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, So Marlon Brando's character, the McCarthy character, is one

316
00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.160
<v Speaker 4>who has changed maybe the most. It's changed a lot

317
00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:01.559
<v Speaker 4>though from the book and the original screenplay to the film,

318
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.039
<v Speaker 4>in that you don't really buy into it. You do

319
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.200
<v Speaker 4>think this guy's just a sleazy criminal and things like that,

320
00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:13.640
<v Speaker 4>but you do think that he sells the idea that

321
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.839
<v Speaker 4>he believes his own bullshit in the scene where he

322
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:23.759
<v Speaker 4>talks about the service that he provides and that he's

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00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.960
<v Speaker 4>asking Johnny Depp to provide, whereas in the book, in

324
00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:33.279
<v Speaker 4>the original treatment that the Raphael character, the Johnny Depp

325
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 4>character is really a lot more kind of naive and

326
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.079
<v Speaker 4>being that sort of devastating reveal at the end of

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00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.480
<v Speaker 4>the book where you get the contract. You see the

328
00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:52.240
<v Speaker 4>contract it was written out and it's just nonsense on

329
00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.279
<v Speaker 4>a It's just a couple of scribbles on a piece

330
00:20:55.319 --> 00:21:02.039
<v Speaker 4>of paper and he was just really do pretty much.

331
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<v Speaker 4>And yeah, and the Yeah, so the character of course

332
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.640
<v Speaker 4>doesn't give the speech that Brando gives in this, but yeah,

333
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.440
<v Speaker 4>it changes a lot, and I'm not sure that I'm

334
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:20.240
<v Speaker 4>not sure that it works entirely. There's a lot of

335
00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.960
<v Speaker 4>elements of this film that I think are really good

336
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.640
<v Speaker 4>that seem to be existing in a different film than

337
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:30.680
<v Speaker 4>other elements that I think are good.

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<v Speaker 11>They don't quite gel into a satisfactory whole, but taken

339
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.599
<v Speaker 11>on their own, I think, oh, that's interesting and that's worthwhile.

340
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<v Speaker 4>And I'd watched that movie that consistent with that, and

341
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.440
<v Speaker 4>I'd watched the Machine that's consistent with other elements that

342
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.880
<v Speaker 4>are in opposition to that in this film.

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<v Speaker 2>The way that Brando sells it in the movie, for me,

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<v Speaker 2>really reminds me of the film Martyrs, that whole idea

345
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.200
<v Speaker 2>of like you see the face of God and the

346
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:07.480
<v Speaker 2>person that is about to martyr themselves, and with this

347
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.079
<v Speaker 2>it seems very much like, yeah, we're looking for that

348
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, but there is that tinge of and

349
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.119
<v Speaker 2>that really gets us off, like that is the ultimate

350
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.640
<v Speaker 2>orgasmic material as seeing somebody who is losing their life

351
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<v Speaker 2>for us.

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<v Speaker 4>It reminds me of Peter the James Mason movie Odd

353
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<v Speaker 4>Man Out. He's dying throughout the film, and the artist

354
00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:37.279
<v Speaker 4>goes from vignette to vignette because people discover him and

355
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.759
<v Speaker 4>how they react to him. But the artist is obsessed

356
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.039
<v Speaker 4>with painting his face because he knows he's dying and

357
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:48.200
<v Speaker 4>he's not really concerned about his fate.

358
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:50.720
<v Speaker 1>It's just for his art.

359
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:55.519
<v Speaker 4>He's got to paint this face because yeah, he mumbles

360
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.559
<v Speaker 4>that same stuff about seeing God and see the truth

361
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.079
<v Speaker 4>in that consistent throughout film history.

362
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:06.079
<v Speaker 2>I think I think they make a better point in

363
00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:08.519
<v Speaker 2>the book and the screenplay than they do in the

364
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.880
<v Speaker 2>realized film as far as will he get the money

365
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.200
<v Speaker 2>at the end, And when you read the book and

366
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<v Speaker 2>when you read the screenplay, you know that he's not.

367
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.599
<v Speaker 2>You know that he is completely illiterate, that he cannot

368
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.359
<v Speaker 2>read the contract. Like you said, it's just a whole

369
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.599
<v Speaker 2>bunch of nonsense, and he's never going to get that

370
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.160
<v Speaker 2>money for his family. So what he ends up getting,

371
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:32.839
<v Speaker 2>at least in the book, as far as I remember,

372
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.559
<v Speaker 2>it's a very paltry sum that he gets, and he

373
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.720
<v Speaker 2>goes through the same thing. He gets like almost it's

374
00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.240
<v Speaker 2>like a deposit. But yet the Marshall Bell character is

375
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.880
<v Speaker 2>just like, why would we give you money? That doesn't

376
00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:46.880
<v Speaker 2>make any sense. Why would we give you anything at all?

377
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Because you're just gonna waste it. You're just going to

378
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:51.279
<v Speaker 2>go get drunk. You know, you're just gonna throw this

379
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.000
<v Speaker 2>all away. We're not going to give you shit. But

380
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.279
<v Speaker 2>they end up giving him a little bit of money

381
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.839
<v Speaker 2>and he goes out and does what he does in

382
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:00.640
<v Speaker 2>this as far as like, oh, I'm going to buy

383
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 2>stuff now, I'm going to buy stuff for my family.

384
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to buy some new clothes. And then every

385
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.119
<v Speaker 2>single time he tries to do something nice, people are

386
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>after him and in his shit and just being like,

387
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.119
<v Speaker 2>would you do how'd you steal this money? You know,

388
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:16.759
<v Speaker 2>like in this movie it's you know, what robbery did

389
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.039
<v Speaker 2>you do? Like you're going to go to jail, and

390
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.240
<v Speaker 2>there's this whole thing. It's interesting as far as his

391
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.519
<v Speaker 2>wife and his kids keep thinking he's going to go

392
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:26.119
<v Speaker 2>back to jail, that he's going to be out of

393
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.599
<v Speaker 2>their lives soon. He is going to be out of

394
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:31.039
<v Speaker 2>their lives soon, but it's for a completely different reason,

395
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.119
<v Speaker 2>and it's just for the sacrifice that he's trying to

396
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.440
<v Speaker 2>do to them. But he's such a fuck up that

397
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>they're never going to see one red scent out of this.

398
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:44.880
<v Speaker 7>There's a toggling between genuinely playful, kind of fun moments.

399
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 1>The trip to the grocery store.

400
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:50.599
<v Speaker 7>I think, in particular, which even has this like on

401
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 7>their way home, they have this enormous bird, it looks

402
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 7>like an ostrich that they've even put the flannel shirt

403
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.759
<v Speaker 7>onto as they're headed home from the grocery store on

404
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:04.079
<v Speaker 7>the bus, that they've made such an outrageous kind of

405
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:08.720
<v Speaker 7>purchase with the grocery cart filling up, and then yeah,

406
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.400
<v Speaker 7>there's this giant, gray plucked bird beyond a turkey that

407
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.400
<v Speaker 7>they take home. There are these like kind of wild moments,

408
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:21.880
<v Speaker 7>and then metronomically after each one, somebody wants to know,

409
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:26.640
<v Speaker 7>whether it's his wife or Louis Guzman or other characters,

410
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.200
<v Speaker 7>the priest, they all want to know, how.

411
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:31.559
<v Speaker 1>Did you steal this? Where did this come from? Are

412
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:32.480
<v Speaker 1>you going to jail?

413
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:36.839
<v Speaker 7>This is going to seem like a really nutty comparison,

414
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:43.119
<v Speaker 7>but this movie is an interesting quinn with Preston Sturge's

415
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.720
<v Speaker 7>His Christmas in July, which has it has a similar

416
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.279
<v Speaker 7>messed up situation. Preston Sturges is one of the funniest

417
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.960
<v Speaker 7>filmmakers ever, and this is one of my favorite films

418
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:55.839
<v Speaker 7>of his. But I don't find it funny at all.

419
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.319
<v Speaker 7>It's so stressful. It's like a Fosspender movie because the

420
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.680
<v Speaker 7>premise is that this guy is being trick into thinking

421
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.359
<v Speaker 7>that he's won this big prize, and so he goes

422
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 7>on a spending spree and throws a little carnival for

423
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.920
<v Speaker 7>the kids in his neighborhood. That's very much like Carnival

424
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.880
<v Speaker 7>that seems to get bigger and bigger as the Brave

425
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.240
<v Speaker 7>goes on and with everything that he's that he buys.

426
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:23.920
<v Speaker 7>I'm just like, no, don't do it, don't do it.

427
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.839
<v Speaker 7>This is different because, like in the one case, he's

428
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.880
<v Speaker 7>been tricked. But I think Sturge's is working a similar

429
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:37.839
<v Speaker 7>kind of allegory about American capitalism and consumer capitalism in particular,

430
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 7>that all involved depth, various writers are all kind of

431
00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:45.319
<v Speaker 7>tapping into in a kind of similar way.

432
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.039
<v Speaker 1>But dep really loves that carnival to a point that

433
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:51.839
<v Speaker 1>it's one of the things I love it too. But

434
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:53.720
<v Speaker 1>it unbalances the film.

435
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:55.920
<v Speaker 7>There are so many if one of the reasons why

436
00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:59.519
<v Speaker 7>it's two hours long is that there there's so many shots,

437
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:04.079
<v Speaker 7>and they're elaborate shots moving among all the different carnival

438
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 7>rides with the kids and all this kind of stuff,

439
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.920
<v Speaker 7>And it's even mysterious where did all this money come from?

440
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:14.160
<v Speaker 1>How does he do this? How is he showing it off?

441
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.799
<v Speaker 7>But it's interesting because in The Sturges, we know that

442
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:20.559
<v Speaker 7>eventually this guy is going to find out that it's

443
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:23.079
<v Speaker 7>a ruse and that he's spent all this money that

444
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.039
<v Speaker 7>he doesn't have and it's.

445
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.559
<v Speaker 1>Going to ruin him. And in this movie we know

446
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:32.400
<v Speaker 1>that all the money is coming from torture and death

447
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:34.079
<v Speaker 1>that Depp is going to have.

448
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.480
<v Speaker 7>I doubt that Johnny Depp was thinking of Christmas in July,

449
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 7>but I do think that these two movies make for

450
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:46.039
<v Speaker 7>really interesting sort of comparison, given they're like parallel setup

451
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.079
<v Speaker 7>and then the specific for the imagery that they get into.

452
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:52.279
<v Speaker 1>It's not the Coffee, it's the Bunk. Absolutely one of

453
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:53.279
<v Speaker 1>my favorite movies ever.

454
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.480
<v Speaker 7>Lady Eve can only edge it out because of Barbara

455
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:58.799
<v Speaker 7>Stanwick and because it really is like the funniest movie

456
00:27:58.799 --> 00:27:59.400
<v Speaker 7>I've ever seen.

457
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I love that reveal of the carnival scene when you

458
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:07.880
<v Speaker 2>see him and he's like jumping on a trampoline and

459
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.920
<v Speaker 2>then the camera's like just doing the slow pan, so

460
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>you see him doing one thing and then it's completely

461
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:19.359
<v Speaker 2>seamless from him. Actually it's him opening up a refrigerator

462
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:22.160
<v Speaker 2>showing all of the stuff that he stocked it with,

463
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:24.920
<v Speaker 2>and then the camera keeps panning and then boom, he's

464
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.400
<v Speaker 2>on a trampoline and I like that he's kind of

465
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 2>moved under there, and then some balloons come up to

466
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of mask the cut, and then he's on a

467
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of makeshift Merry Go Round And I thought that

468
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.279
<v Speaker 2>was really nice the way that he presented all this,

469
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.960
<v Speaker 2>and that he's the one going through all of these

470
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.079
<v Speaker 2>rides and kind of like exploring and showing like, hey,

471
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:49.000
<v Speaker 2>wife and kids, look at all of this stuff, and yeah,

472
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:52.319
<v Speaker 2>it is completely nuts that he would do this, and

473
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.680
<v Speaker 2>it is something that his wife is just like, you

474
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.400
<v Speaker 2>woke us up in the middle of the night to

475
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:59.359
<v Speaker 2>show us this, Like what are you doing? Where did

476
00:28:59.400 --> 00:28:59.720
<v Speaker 2>you get this?

477
00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:00.680
<v Speaker 6>You know?

478
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>When are you gonna be going to jail? And she

479
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.200
<v Speaker 2>lays him out with a punch right across the jaw

480
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:11.599
<v Speaker 2>and I love it. I love her character. I think

481
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the only character I love more is the Marshall Bell character,

482
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:19.200
<v Speaker 2>because Marshall Bell is just always amazing and to see

483
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:25.200
<v Speaker 2>him in this he's just he loves playing these unhinged characters,

484
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:28.319
<v Speaker 2>like of course, when he shows up in Starshift Troopers.

485
00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:33.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh God, we're gonna die. Don't you understand we're all

486
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 1>gonna die.

487
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Control yourself general quato and total recall and stuff. Oh

488
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.480
<v Speaker 2>it's so good. But yeah, here, he's just this. He's

489
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the right arm of the Marlon Brando character, and he

490
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>just seems to show up all the time, and I

491
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>guess he's kind of he's almost like an Angel of

492
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Death type character who just keeps showing up. And like,

493
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.240
<v Speaker 2>at one point, Death past to put all of these

494
00:30:01.799 --> 00:30:05.079
<v Speaker 2>bottles that kind of slung over his shoulders, and he's

495
00:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 2>going to get water from this creek, and I'm just like, oh, man,

496
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 2>that water is probably so dirty and so filthy. And

497
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Belle even says, no, wonder you people die so early

498
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:17.480
<v Speaker 2>if you're drinking that kind of stuff. And he's just

499
00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:20.400
<v Speaker 2>there to taunt depth almost the entire time, to taunt

500
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:22.640
<v Speaker 2>him and then also to hurt him. There's some one

501
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:26.480
<v Speaker 2>scene later where and I'm guessing it's the other guy

502
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.880
<v Speaker 2>that was in the office with Bell when we first

503
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 2>meet him.

504
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:33.880
<v Speaker 7>I recognize him, and I checked it out a couple

505
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.160
<v Speaker 7>of times and then just decided no, it's so like

506
00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.759
<v Speaker 7>a bizarre sort of it reminds me of the theatrical

507
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:46.920
<v Speaker 7>punishments of various apparatics in the trial for the benefit

508
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.799
<v Speaker 7>of Joseph k I'll be coming back to Kafka again

509
00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 7>in relation to this, But yeah, it was like a strange,

510
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:55.119
<v Speaker 7>not quite recognizable person.

511
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:58.599
<v Speaker 1>But Depth reacts in a way that seems not just

512
00:30:58.720 --> 00:30:59.799
<v Speaker 1>like he's shocked.

513
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.759
<v Speaker 7>That there's this victim of his tormentor, but also that

514
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.160
<v Speaker 7>he seems to recognize him, which I guess he would

515
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.519
<v Speaker 7>in such a small community, but it is it's a

516
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:09.720
<v Speaker 7>really strange moment.

517
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.480
<v Speaker 4>I'm pretty sure it is the wizzy character that Chuck

518
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:17.640
<v Speaker 4>Weiss's character who's in the office at the beginning in

519
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 4>Marshall Palo's office. But what the significance of that character

520
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.119
<v Speaker 4>is outside of showing up twice and Depth being pretty

521
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.519
<v Speaker 4>thrown off by him when he's alive, So I guess

522
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.480
<v Speaker 4>he'd be is thrown off by him dead? What purpose

523
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.440
<v Speaker 4>he serves other than to be a cameo, I'm not sure.

524
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.759
<v Speaker 2>Fucking Marshall Bell just sitting out there by his van,

525
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:42.240
<v Speaker 2>has a very shallow grave, dug just kind of and

526
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.440
<v Speaker 2>it's like in the middle of nowhere. But Depth ends

527
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>up running across him, and I'm like Okay, this feels

528
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.279
<v Speaker 2>very much like a moment of fate and it's basically like,

529
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:54.640
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, see what I'm doing to this guy like that.

530
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:57.440
<v Speaker 2>It's almost like that long goodbye thing where it's like,

531
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.599
<v Speaker 2>this is this the guy is my friend? Imagine what

532
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:01.599
<v Speaker 2>I would do to somebody who's not my friend.

533
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.519
<v Speaker 1>The figure of that character.

534
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:08.359
<v Speaker 7>And like the setting in a garbage stump, and a

535
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.200
<v Speaker 7>lot of elements of the movie abstract, even the desert

536
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:17.599
<v Speaker 7>setting is used in this kind of absurdist fashion, like

537
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:25.440
<v Speaker 7>really stripping things down to icons and allegory. Absurdism isn't

538
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:28.440
<v Speaker 7>as allegorical as this movie is, but there's a real

539
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.119
<v Speaker 7>strain of absurdism here. Then, Jed, you mentioned this the

540
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:38.519
<v Speaker 7>different movies and how they fit together. Absurdism doesn't generally

541
00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:42.039
<v Speaker 7>veer into such sentimentality as.

542
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:46.319
<v Speaker 1>The Brave does in some moments. But I'm not gonna

543
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:47.839
<v Speaker 1>say that it works like I'm not.

544
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 7>I don't exactly want to throw down for this as

545
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.319
<v Speaker 7>a great movie or even altogether a good movie, but

546
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 7>I find it a fascinating movie in the way that

547
00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:03.160
<v Speaker 7>it is using these kinds of influences, sometimes quite well

548
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.640
<v Speaker 7>and at other times can't quite make them fit together.

549
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

550
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.359
<v Speaker 7>In the book as well, there's a strong kind of

551
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 7>stripped down absurdist streak that I think in some ways

552
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.640
<v Speaker 7>the limitations of doing this movie on its budget militates

553
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:28.279
<v Speaker 7>toward absurdist world that then alto includes is some more

554
00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:34.640
<v Speaker 7>standard melodrama and exploitation. It is absolutely an exploitation film

555
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:38.240
<v Speaker 7>set up. Some of the reviews referred to it as

556
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.079
<v Speaker 7>a kind of neo Western, and I don't think that

557
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:43.839
<v Speaker 7>is actually the case.

558
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:48.519
<v Speaker 1>I think this is more like one of those rural noirs.

559
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.039
<v Speaker 7>This is more in a tradition of a kind of

560
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:57.000
<v Speaker 7>fated character in a crime narrative than particularly a Western setting.

561
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:01.559
<v Speaker 1>It is obviously the place is like the West, but

562
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.039
<v Speaker 1>that's not really what puts you in the.

563
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:06.559
<v Speaker 7>West as a genre, and I think we've got something

564
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.480
<v Speaker 7>that's much closer to a crime film, which is again

565
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:14.039
<v Speaker 7>related I don't know if this is the case as

566
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.119
<v Speaker 7>an influence on the novel, but related to the trial

567
00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:23.280
<v Speaker 7>and other Kafka absurdist stories that are about guilt and

568
00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:30.800
<v Speaker 7>crime following characters in an extremely abstract and therefore almost

569
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:32.440
<v Speaker 7>supernatural kind of fashion.

570
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.920
<v Speaker 2>I can almost see this being like a doa but

571
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>you with that you know Edmund O'Brien is going to

572
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.400
<v Speaker 2>die because he's been poisoned. In this movie, it's like

573
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:42.519
<v Speaker 2>the world is poisoning.

574
00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:42.880
<v Speaker 6>You know.

575
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Depp is going to die by the end of this.

576
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:49.440
<v Speaker 4>I think one of the standout qualities of the film

577
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:55.360
<v Speaker 4>is really the production design, because, as you noted, the

578
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.199
<v Speaker 4>book is very stripped down. There's a lot of detail

579
00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:01.039
<v Speaker 4>in the dump and things like that, but you don't

580
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:06.440
<v Speaker 4>really come away reading the book with a very good

581
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Speaker 4>idea of what things really look like. And the film

582
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.840
<v Speaker 4>put together this world, and they put together a really

583
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:19.039
<v Speaker 4>fascinating world. It doesn't really make much sense. It doesn't

584
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:23.239
<v Speaker 4>have to when you're in these sort of fantastic and

585
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:27.280
<v Speaker 4>allegorical spaces, but they do such a good job of

586
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:33.079
<v Speaker 4>grounding the world in some areas that it does butt

587
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:37.920
<v Speaker 4>up against the more fantastic elements of it. Like they've

588
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:42.800
<v Speaker 4>got to go up the dirty creep to get water,

589
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:48.239
<v Speaker 4>but they've got electricity everywhere. They've got a TV. In fact,

590
00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:52.679
<v Speaker 4>my favorite detail of the carnival that he builds and

591
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:57.000
<v Speaker 4>sets up is that right in front of it is

592
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:00.599
<v Speaker 4>a comfy chair with a giant TV in front of it,

593
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.559
<v Speaker 4>so you could just sit in the comfy chair and

594
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:05.719
<v Speaker 4>watch TV. You don't have to actually play on the

595
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.519
<v Speaker 4>carnival world. You could just sit there and watch TV.

596
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:11.880
<v Speaker 4>That seems like a nice touch. But there's a really

597
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:17.039
<v Speaker 4>nice shot early on the first introduction to the little

598
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:20.639
<v Speaker 4>community that they live in, where there's a woman with

599
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 4>a very tiny patch of grass that she is watering.

600
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:29.239
<v Speaker 4>She's got a fence around it with stones, and it

601
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.519
<v Speaker 4>is very guarded. She is just trying to make something

602
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:40.280
<v Speaker 4>grow in this really dusty, horrible place. But several shots

603
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.440
<v Speaker 4>of characters in there with fresh vegetables and peppers and

604
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:48.039
<v Speaker 4>things like that that they're stringing together, and it's like, well,

605
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.719
<v Speaker 4>I don't understand how all the fresh vegetables are there.

606
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.599
<v Speaker 4>You make such a point of this patch of grass

607
00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:00.800
<v Speaker 4>being so precious. So there's just all these nice, really

608
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.679
<v Speaker 4>great details that, like I said, really ground it in

609
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:11.039
<v Speaker 4>reality at times. That almost like a Cherry Gilliam film.

610
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.159
<v Speaker 4>And I guess probably right after this was Fear and

611
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.800
<v Speaker 4>Loathing in Las Vegas, So who knows if Depth was

612
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:22.360
<v Speaker 4>already thinking of Gillium, but the Fisher King quality to it,

613
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.320
<v Speaker 4>or Brazil sort of quality where those films go in

614
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:31.599
<v Speaker 4>and out of fantasy very seamlessly, but clearly the audience

615
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:36.440
<v Speaker 4>really understands what's a fantastic vision and what the reality

616
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:40.719
<v Speaker 4>of it is there, especially the carnival scene and scenes

617
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:46.960
<v Speaker 4>and things like that really deserve that otherworldly Does it

618
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:50.000
<v Speaker 4>really look like this is it? Or is this just

619
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:56.920
<v Speaker 4>amplifying the emotional the ecstatic reality of their emotional state. Really,

620
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.679
<v Speaker 4>it hats off to the production design and to for

621
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:05.239
<v Speaker 4>orchestrating some of those great shots and great scenes.

622
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.480
<v Speaker 5>But again, two good and.

623
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 4>Strong elements that don't really gel for me in the film,

624
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 4>and had been happy to see either one of those

625
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:25.679
<v Speaker 4>films that really lean into the one aspect more. No,

626
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:28.920
<v Speaker 4>it's usbun. I don't think that's right.

627
00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I have a dumb question for you guys, because I

628
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.320
<v Speaker 2>was reading there's not that much written about this movie, unfortunately,

629
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.400
<v Speaker 2>but I was reading some reviews last night and one

630
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:42.679
<v Speaker 2>person was writing about how Depth kills the Marshall Bell character.

631
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:46.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember him killing Marshall Bell. Did I forget

632
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:50.679
<v Speaker 2>something and just completely blank out on this because and

633
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.760
<v Speaker 2>they even talked about him being covered in blood and

634
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Speaker 2>stuff and like did he kill Bell on his way

635
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.159
<v Speaker 2>after like doing a Mike Tyson on Louis Guzman and

636
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.679
<v Speaker 2>murdering Louis Guzman. It's like, no, that's not in here,

637
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, it's It is interesting though that Guzman kind

638
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.800
<v Speaker 2>of takes the place of Belle, because Bell not only

639
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.519
<v Speaker 2>is he a threat, he's not really a threat for Depp.

640
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.400
<v Speaker 2>He's more of a threat to Depp's family. He's like,

641
00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:19.000
<v Speaker 2>if you don't go through with this, I'm going to

642
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 2>murder your family. And then when Guzman shows up, and

643
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 2>it's basically it's almost like a swap because at one

644
00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:28.280
<v Speaker 2>point around like I don't know an hour or something,

645
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:31.960
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's like an an hour ten something like that,

646
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Bell just disappears. It's like that last scene that we

647
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.920
<v Speaker 2>saw with the Shallow Grave. The grave is the last

648
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:41.480
<v Speaker 2>time that we see him, and then Guzman shows up

649
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe right before that, and starts to become this threat.

650
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:48.639
<v Speaker 2>And then he again is the one that's threatening Dep's family.

651
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.159
<v Speaker 2>He's just like, Oh, if you don't cut me in

652
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:53.840
<v Speaker 2>on this deal, you know, I'm going to be taking

653
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.079
<v Speaker 2>care of your wife. And there's one point where he

654
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.880
<v Speaker 2>talks with him. Actually I think that might be Belle

655
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.159
<v Speaker 2>where he like goes running home to make sure that

656
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:04.199
<v Speaker 2>his family's okay. And that's also interesting too. You're talking

657
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 2>about the whole Christ metaphor, and what does Bell do

658
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:11.039
<v Speaker 2>the last time we see him. He pokes Step right

659
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.599
<v Speaker 2>in the hand with a it almost looks like a

660
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:16.360
<v Speaker 2>fire iron, and he's got the wound of Christ right

661
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:17.920
<v Speaker 2>there in his hand. You know, it doesn't do it

662
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 2>to both hands, but he's like got that there. And

663
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.800
<v Speaker 2>then Depth, you know, the scene of him running through

664
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:26.800
<v Speaker 2>the desert and the blood and the moonlight and everything,

665
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:28.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, that's pretty nice.

666
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:32.960
<v Speaker 7>Guzman and Bell are related as a kind of pair

667
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.960
<v Speaker 7>or thematic twinning going on within the story.

668
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I do think that this speaks to the way that

669
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:43.480
<v Speaker 1>the larger Allegory.

670
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:50.880
<v Speaker 7>Works about its world of depravity and exploitation, where it's

671
00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:57.920
<v Speaker 7>possible for Raphael Depth's character to fight and kill Guzman,

672
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.519
<v Speaker 7>but ultimately the battle take place among the working and

673
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:08.320
<v Speaker 7>criminal class and does not extend to overthrowing or in

674
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:12.719
<v Speaker 7>any way really opposing the wealthy people exploiting them.

675
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.840
<v Speaker 1>And the final images of the film.

676
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.800
<v Speaker 7>And this works a little bit differently from how the

677
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:25.719
<v Speaker 7>book can, because it's a purely sort of cinematic montage.

678
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.360
<v Speaker 7>Thing is as heads toward his fate. We see all

679
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.480
<v Speaker 7>the trucks and the bulldozers come in to destroy the

680
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:36.159
<v Speaker 7>community that he's been living in, and miss trailer that's

681
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.920
<v Speaker 7>much smaller on the outside than it is on the inside,

682
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.119
<v Speaker 7>and a kind of wonderful absurd fashion gets hoisted into

683
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 7>the air as Depp is about to get into this elevator,

684
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:52.000
<v Speaker 7>and we left not knowing whether his money has allowed

685
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:54.599
<v Speaker 7>his family to get out of there in any meaningful

686
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:56.199
<v Speaker 7>way on time, and it seemed.

687
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 1>Like probably not. He's not necessarily a compli anything.

688
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.320
<v Speaker 7>But again, I think though, like not knowing at the end,

689
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:07.679
<v Speaker 7>as these images are presented next to each other, depth

690
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:11.320
<v Speaker 7>headed to his fate and the community in this garbage

691
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:15.920
<v Speaker 7>heap being destroyed, I think the ambiguity of it for

692
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:20.440
<v Speaker 7>me is actually more satisfying than having a real notion

693
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.400
<v Speaker 7>of was the money delivered or not the money and

694
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:24.840
<v Speaker 7>all of this.

695
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Becomes so secondary to the human concerns.

696
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.880
<v Speaker 7>Even if that family does receive it's only fifty thousand dollars,

697
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:37.199
<v Speaker 7>and even in late nineteen nineties money that's really not

698
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.400
<v Speaker 7>going to get them very far in the scheme of things,

699
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.440
<v Speaker 7>especially if they've been living in a garbage heap.

700
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.199
<v Speaker 1>Really not that much. I find the ending of the

701
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.360
<v Speaker 1>movie to me more affecting.

702
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:54.840
<v Speaker 7>Than the book by far, because it is the final

703
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 7>abstract and absurd playing out of the economics that are

704
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.400
<v Speaker 7>running the world that it takes place.

705
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.239
<v Speaker 2>In well, and that he comes back and gets in

706
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:11.760
<v Speaker 2>that elevator with no one else there. That it's he

707
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:15.679
<v Speaker 2>doesn't need the Marshall Bell character to watch over him.

708
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:20.239
<v Speaker 2>He is he's a dog coming back to the kennel,

709
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:22.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, and just getting ready, or he's a pig

710
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.519
<v Speaker 2>coming back to slaughter kind of thing, because that's all

711
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:27.760
<v Speaker 2>he's doing. Is I mean, we've thought about this so

712
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.400
<v Speaker 2>many times on this show, the whole elevator ride to Hell,

713
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:33.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean Jeded dyeh you run the literally

714
00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:36.639
<v Speaker 2>the elevator to the gallows episode, right, So it's like, yeah,

715
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:38.920
<v Speaker 2>here he is getting on this elevator and he's just

716
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:41.960
<v Speaker 2>gonna go into the depths and we just get the

717
00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:45.199
<v Speaker 2>doors closing, and that's how the movie ends, you know,

718
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.840
<v Speaker 2>roll credits kind of thing. But yeah, it's it's it

719
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:53.039
<v Speaker 2>is interesting that Guzman is preying upon Depp and his family,

720
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.800
<v Speaker 2>and Guzman doesn't live in the dump, but he is

721
00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:01.519
<v Speaker 2>basically of that criminal class and is yeah, just praying

722
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:03.800
<v Speaker 2>on something that he shouldn't be praying on. And I

723
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.880
<v Speaker 2>think it's very telling too that the one I don't know,

724
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:11.199
<v Speaker 2>redemptive type character that Clarence Williams the third character that

725
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.840
<v Speaker 2>that is a African American priest, not a white priest,

726
00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:18.360
<v Speaker 2>that is taking care of him, and by him being

727
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Clarence Williams a third, I'm like, Okay, I can trust

728
00:44:21.719 --> 00:44:24.159
<v Speaker 2>this person. I can trust that he is going to

729
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:26.920
<v Speaker 2>give that money that Depp gives to him to the

730
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:29.280
<v Speaker 2>family when he's done. And I love that moment at

731
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:31.800
<v Speaker 2>the end when he takes the collar off. It's just like,

732
00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:36.039
<v Speaker 2>all right, he's he knows that he's broken his val

733
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:41.000
<v Speaker 2>because he's basically aided in this self made suicide of Depths,

734
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.760
<v Speaker 2>and he really can't be a man of the cloth anymore.

735
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:47.679
<v Speaker 2>He basically sees the world for what it is, in

736
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:48.760
<v Speaker 2>my opinion.

737
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 7>Tells dep that he's sold his soul, and Depth comes

738
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.840
<v Speaker 7>back with no, I sold my body, which is I

739
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:03.159
<v Speaker 7>think a pretty interesting ugue under the circumstances with these

740
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:08.599
<v Speaker 7>and I like that these characters are not terribly articulate.

741
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.880
<v Speaker 7>They can throw out these opposing points and then there's

742
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.719
<v Speaker 7>a larger there's larger implications that we can get at

743
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:19.039
<v Speaker 7>with them, but we're not going to get a full

744
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:20.239
<v Speaker 7>philosophical argument.

745
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:24.639
<v Speaker 1>It's not Destfeyevski where we're going to get each one

746
00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:25.360
<v Speaker 1>of those sides.

747
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:28.519
<v Speaker 7>And for the movie, I find that to be really

748
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:34.159
<v Speaker 7>effective and hold together even some of the less successful elements.

749
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:38.440
<v Speaker 7>For me, one thing about this film I'll just I'll

750
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.159
<v Speaker 7>veer into this direction. And this is one level and

751
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:45.719
<v Speaker 7>which I guess for me, this is both a plus

752
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:48.559
<v Speaker 7>and a minus. This is like an overgrown student film

753
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:53.639
<v Speaker 7>in so many ways. There are these big grand ambitions

754
00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:59.199
<v Speaker 7>to how the allegory is to work, and there's some

755
00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:03.360
<v Speaker 7>there's actually like some really beautiful technical work that I

756
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:06.239
<v Speaker 7>would really want to praise from depth as a director.

757
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.199
<v Speaker 7>And the minus on a student film is, yeah, the

758
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.519
<v Speaker 7>pretension and that the movie couldn't possibly live up to

759
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:13.599
<v Speaker 7>everything that.

760
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:14.880
<v Speaker 1>It seems to be aiming at.

761
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:19.280
<v Speaker 7>But on another level, I'll take the pretension sometimes even

762
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:23.760
<v Speaker 7>when it becomes laughable or when it doesn't fully hold together,

763
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 7>it is I will say that it's refreshing to see

764
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:32.599
<v Speaker 7>a movie by somebody who's trying. Yeah, it's a bit

765
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 7>of a white elephant, and myself, I prefer the termite arc.

766
00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 7>But there are a lot of people not particularly termiting either,

767
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:45.280
<v Speaker 7>who don't even go after very interesting kinds of white elephants.

768
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:50.599
<v Speaker 1>And an interesting film. They're really strange elements that don't

769
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:54.239
<v Speaker 1>quite go together. One thing, back to the student film thing.

770
00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:56.639
<v Speaker 7>I want to praise Depth technically, and I think is

771
00:46:56.719 --> 00:47:00.199
<v Speaker 7>work with the cinematographer is really excellent. But you can

772
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.400
<v Speaker 7>really see a big difference with most of the dialogue scenes.

773
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:07.079
<v Speaker 7>Almost anytime there's dialogue, the camera just locks down into

774
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.880
<v Speaker 7>close up shot and reverse for long periods of time.

775
00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.400
<v Speaker 7>It's only with Guzman and Depp on screen at the

776
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.960
<v Speaker 7>same time. Oh now we're going to get a walk

777
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:18.280
<v Speaker 7>and talk because we know that both of these actors

778
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:19.440
<v Speaker 7>are really capable of it.

779
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:21.519
<v Speaker 1>They're good for it. But in most other.

780
00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:25.639
<v Speaker 7>Cases, Depth is not really He does some amazing blocking

781
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:31.159
<v Speaker 7>and staging and some really nice and consistent and narrational

782
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:35.280
<v Speaker 7>kinds of moved every time. It's strictly visual that I

783
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:40.079
<v Speaker 7>really respect. And yeah, okay, so first time that he directed,

784
00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:43.920
<v Speaker 7>he's going to come down an easier approach whenever he's

785
00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:45.000
<v Speaker 7>got to do dialogue.

786
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:46.599
<v Speaker 1>But I don't know.

787
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:49.840
<v Speaker 7>There's some really beautiful shots where he's constantly revealing things

788
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:54.239
<v Speaker 7>about spaces, he reveals characters. There's the nice playful one

789
00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:57.119
<v Speaker 7>that you described earlier, Mike, where he appears several times

790
00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.239
<v Speaker 7>within the same long take.

791
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.280
<v Speaker 1>It's doing some really cool stuff. There's even a shot

792
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:03.599
<v Speaker 1>in it.

793
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.840
<v Speaker 7>I watched this ten times to try to figure out

794
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:08.840
<v Speaker 7>what was going on, and I still don't have an

795
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.760
<v Speaker 7>answer to it. Probably my favorite scene in the movie

796
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 7>is that bizarre wrestling match with the television that just

797
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:18.639
<v Speaker 7>suddenly goes roll across the floor and it's done in

798
00:48:18.760 --> 00:48:22.119
<v Speaker 7>this like static. It's not exactly a wide but as

799
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:25.320
<v Speaker 7>wide as you can get inside that trailer, it's done

800
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:30.480
<v Speaker 7>in a static wide master. As the TV starts to

801
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:33.400
<v Speaker 7>roll one direction and then Dep's wife goes for it

802
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:35.480
<v Speaker 7>and tries to wrestle it back to where it's going,

803
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 7>and it's sign off is happening for TV? And you've

804
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:42.800
<v Speaker 7>got the national anthem playing in flags, and so wrestling.

805
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.199
<v Speaker 1>With a TV that has flags on it if all

806
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:47.079
<v Speaker 1>too obvious.

807
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:49.159
<v Speaker 5>But then at the same time I'm like, how is this?

808
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:51.559
<v Speaker 1>What is going on? How this happening?

809
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:56.159
<v Speaker 7>And the sort of grange whimsy of it that doesn't

810
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.320
<v Speaker 7>seem to work by the same rules as the rest

811
00:48:58.360 --> 00:48:58.840
<v Speaker 7>of the movie.

812
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:00.599
<v Speaker 5>Here for it.

813
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:04.199
<v Speaker 1>It even ends up with the TV going to static

814
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:07.559
<v Speaker 1>at the dead center of the frame as Depp comes

815
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:10.519
<v Speaker 1>in and grabs his family to take them outside to

816
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:13.239
<v Speaker 1>see what he's been up to. It's really strange, and

817
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.519
<v Speaker 1>I could never figure out what was supposed to be happening,

818
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:20.039
<v Speaker 1>other than I guess maybe an homage to Poulter Geys

819
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.159
<v Speaker 1>to be Poultergeist activity all of a sudden, and the

820
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.639
<v Speaker 1>use of that television but wonderful stuff. Does it precisely fit?

821
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, and to some degree I don't care

822
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:32.199
<v Speaker 1>the movie.

823
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.880
<v Speaker 7>It's slow, it's too long, but again it's slow and

824
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 7>too long in a way I'll take it in order

825
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:42.039
<v Speaker 7>to get such a bizarre, interesting jumble as what it

826
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:42.639
<v Speaker 7>serves up.

827
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm surprised that it's not the old test pattern

828
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:50.000
<v Speaker 2>that they used to have sometimes with the Indian head.

829
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:54.079
<v Speaker 2>I was just watching a collection of commercials the other

830
00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:55.920
<v Speaker 2>day that were called I think it was something like

831
00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:59.400
<v Speaker 2>inappropriate commercials from the I think it was from the

832
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:03.639
<v Speaker 2>seventy there might have been the eighties, and just how

833
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:07.559
<v Speaker 2>often there were Native American characters in these commercials that

834
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:10.159
<v Speaker 2>were not portrayed by Native Americans, and they were just

835
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:15.800
<v Speaker 2>completely exploiting Native culture for selling things. And it was

836
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:18.920
<v Speaker 2>just like, oh okay, I mean there were inappropriate things

837
00:50:19.079 --> 00:50:22.840
<v Speaker 2>other places too, like this whole ad campaign where these

838
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:25.519
<v Speaker 2>women are getting their skirts ripped off so they can

839
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.159
<v Speaker 2>show their underwear and legs and talk about how whatever

840
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.440
<v Speaker 2>product is working so well on their legs. I'm like, Wow,

841
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:34.880
<v Speaker 2>we've come a long way, baby, And I think there

842
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.199
<v Speaker 2>was even a Virginia Slim's commercial in there too. All right,

843
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:39.639
<v Speaker 2>we're going to take a break and we'll be back

844
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:42.599
<v Speaker 2>with an interview with screenwriter Paul mccutten. Right after these

845
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:43.440
<v Speaker 2>brief messages.

846
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 10>You see Squaws in Big Pow Wow. They talk about

847
00:50:48.199 --> 00:50:51.119
<v Speaker 10>big Deal at arrow Ford. You buy a car truck

848
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 10>this month only, you get free one hundred gallons of

849
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:58.199
<v Speaker 10>gas plus one hard dollar. Get certificate companies by Lots

850
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:00.960
<v Speaker 10>of Deeds, or you can apply to You want to

851
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:03.280
<v Speaker 10>know how, come with me to my teev.

852
00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:11.360
<v Speaker 5>Just follow Errol.

853
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:15.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm here to tell you the story of how red

854
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:16.639
<v Speaker 1>Pop began.

855
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:18.760
<v Speaker 6>A long time ago.

856
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:20.440
<v Speaker 5>Our tribe was hot.

857
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.320
<v Speaker 4>And thirsty and the great Spirit Fago.

858
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:27.440
<v Speaker 6>Appeared and said, here's a first quenching, great tasting soft

859
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:30.440
<v Speaker 6>drink just for you, and I call it red Pop.

860
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:32.800
<v Speaker 6>You can share it with the early settlers when they

861
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.599
<v Speaker 6>come to America.

862
00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:35.960
<v Speaker 5>It will give them something to give thanks for.

863
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:40.159
<v Speaker 6>And you, running pudgy, be thankful for diet Fagel.

864
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:42.039
<v Speaker 2>No, I am cheap, I am.

865
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:45.599
<v Speaker 7>Well.

866
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:47.280
<v Speaker 2>I want to know a little bit more about you,

867
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:49.920
<v Speaker 2>and especially how you got into show business.

868
00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:55.039
<v Speaker 5>It's an odd story. I was a physics student. I

869
00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:58.559
<v Speaker 5>was in graduate school in physics. In college at the

870
00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:03.039
<v Speaker 5>University of Chicago, joined the Legendary Doc Films, which is

871
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.039
<v Speaker 5>this student film club that is the oldest film club

872
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:08.880
<v Speaker 5>in the country. And it's quite an intense experience, and

873
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:12.880
<v Speaker 5>I immersed myself in films to an extent that's really

874
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:17.400
<v Speaker 5>pretty frightening. And I watched everything and it was just

875
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:20.840
<v Speaker 5>I became so obsessed with films that when I got

876
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:24.400
<v Speaker 5>to graduate school in physics, I ran a film group

877
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:29.320
<v Speaker 5>at Harvard and spent more time doing that. They're doing

878
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.719
<v Speaker 5>my studies. I said, I'm going to take a year

879
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:36.320
<v Speaker 5>off and I'm gonna try to think about something to

880
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:38.639
<v Speaker 5>do with movies. And I'd seen every film ever made

881
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:41.320
<v Speaker 5>just about but I had no experience in making them.

882
00:52:41.679 --> 00:52:44.440
<v Speaker 5>So I said, maybe I'll apply to film school. They

883
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:47.599
<v Speaker 5>can teach me how to make movies. So I applied,

884
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:51.000
<v Speaker 5>and why knew and USC and got in and said,

885
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.519
<v Speaker 5>I bet NYUS pulled a bunch of film nerds that

886
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:56.679
<v Speaker 5>have seen as many movies as I have, So how

887
00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.679
<v Speaker 5>about the USC, where they probably know more about Hollywood

888
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.760
<v Speaker 5>and make films. So I went to USC, got an MFA,

889
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:06.320
<v Speaker 5>and originally was interested in being in a cinnatographer. Ever

890
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:08.000
<v Speaker 5>it turned out I was no good at that at all,

891
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:12.039
<v Speaker 5>and just fell into writing and just wrote a bunch

892
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:16.679
<v Speaker 5>of student films, and then Brave came along and other things,

893
00:53:16.760 --> 00:53:19.360
<v Speaker 5>and just ended up writing and it turned out to

894
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.519
<v Speaker 5>be really a great thing. Got an agent and all that,

895
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:28.119
<v Speaker 5>and broke for a while, and then I aged out

896
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:32.400
<v Speaker 5>and I'm not interested in They used to call them

897
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:35.960
<v Speaker 5>comic books. Now they call them graphic novels. But that's

898
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:39.000
<v Speaker 5>just not my scene. I wrote a lot of historical

899
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:45.119
<v Speaker 5>dramas and dramatic adaptations of things. And at the time,

900
00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:51.199
<v Speaker 5>in the mid two thousands, Hollywood was becoming a franchise factory,

901
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:55.239
<v Speaker 5>and so there were fewer and fewer projects that were

902
00:53:55.320 --> 00:53:57.800
<v Speaker 5>interesting in me. I did a few for HBO, which

903
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:01.719
<v Speaker 5>is great, but then that kind of like Peter Dobber little,

904
00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:04.559
<v Speaker 5>and so I went back to teaching. So now I'm

905
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:08.639
<v Speaker 5>here in Colorado and I teach both physics and screenwriting.

906
00:54:08.840 --> 00:54:10.360
<v Speaker 2>At quite a double major.

907
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:14.840
<v Speaker 5>There's, yeah, you know, right brain, left brain. But as

908
00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:18.559
<v Speaker 5>I tell people, is they're both about thinking about the

909
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:22.960
<v Speaker 5>world clearly, one physically, one psychologic, and trying to explain

910
00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:26.199
<v Speaker 5>how the world works, either physically or psychologically.

911
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.239
<v Speaker 2>So you were going to Harvard and majoring in physics.

912
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:32.400
<v Speaker 4>I was in the grads program. I was a PhD

913
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:33.920
<v Speaker 4>program in physics at Harvard.

914
00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:37.480
<v Speaker 2>I know how disappointed were your parents.

915
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:41.760
<v Speaker 5>God bless him. They were very tolerant, and they understood

916
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 5>that I had to do what I needed to do.

917
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:46.159
<v Speaker 5>As my mom probably who really got the obsessed with

918
00:54:46.199 --> 00:54:48.039
<v Speaker 5>BIZAM As a kid, I used to stay up late

919
00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:50.800
<v Speaker 5>at night and watch things like Dark Victory with her.

920
00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:55.119
<v Speaker 5>We both we've been yes. So they were pretty good

921
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:58.280
<v Speaker 5>about it, and then of course they got more interested.

922
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:00.639
<v Speaker 5>I had them come out to La into my twifty

923
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.079
<v Speaker 5>screenings and things, and that is fine. Should I have

924
00:55:04.119 --> 00:55:06.840
<v Speaker 5>stayed and gotten a PhD and become a physicist. Who knows.

925
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:10.360
<v Speaker 5>But I had a great time in Hollywood. Had really

926
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:14.800
<v Speaker 5>enjoyed storytelling, and to this day still buiddle around with

927
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:18.960
<v Speaker 5>projects and work on things and just am obsessed with

928
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:22.599
<v Speaker 5>the movies, although Hollywood has become a very different place

929
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:23.480
<v Speaker 5>from when I was there.

930
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:26.920
<v Speaker 2>So what year were you graduating from USC?

931
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:30.960
<v Speaker 5>I got my MFA in production there and I think

932
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:36.679
<v Speaker 5>it was ninety one until nineteen one, I think it was. Yeah,

933
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:39.719
<v Speaker 5>I went there in eighty six. I stuck around and

934
00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:42.400
<v Speaker 5>did a couple of things while I was down there,

935
00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:45.880
<v Speaker 5>and then that's actually part of the whole story of

936
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:48.880
<v Speaker 5>the Brave. But there was a feature filmed a bunch

937
00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:51.239
<v Speaker 5>of US students worked on that was made by students

938
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:55.400
<v Speaker 5>at USC. It was directed by a professional director, but

939
00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:58.519
<v Speaker 5>I took an extra semester to work on Zombie High

940
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:03.440
<v Speaker 5>an incredible I wouldn't wish it too many people to watch,

941
00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:05.559
<v Speaker 5>but it was a great experience and it was the

942
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:10.000
<v Speaker 5>brainchild of not to segue into the Brave stuff, but

943
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:13.400
<v Speaker 5>it was the brainchild of the Zias Gazal I'm sure

944
00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:18.639
<v Speaker 5>you've read about, and he was the stock manager at USC.

945
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.760
<v Speaker 5>They they go in and out chip track it and

946
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:24.639
<v Speaker 5>I worked there in the stock room and he had

947
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:27.039
<v Speaker 5>actually a really great idea, which was, hey, we got

948
00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 5>all these bills tunes, they are dying to work on

949
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.719
<v Speaker 5>a feature film in thirty five millimeter and work on

950
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:37.360
<v Speaker 5>professional equipment. Why don't we get a real producer and

951
00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:41.760
<v Speaker 5>a real director B producer and B director and get

952
00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:44.599
<v Speaker 5>them to raise a little money and we'll have the

953
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:48.400
<v Speaker 5>entire crew be usc fill students. And after we did,

954
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.119
<v Speaker 5>and I had a bunch of credits on it, and

955
00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 5>I wrote things that I worked with the editors and

956
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:56.039
<v Speaker 5>all this stuff. But it was great. It was a

957
00:56:56.679 --> 00:57:00.280
<v Speaker 5>great Crash Courses Bar version of Roger Cornet. I think

958
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:03.519
<v Speaker 5>it'd still widerland Netflix if you really want to torture

959
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:08.960
<v Speaker 5>yourself was really incredible and working with a lot of

960
00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:13.760
<v Speaker 5>people who are now really pillars Bollywood community. Bob, do

961
00:57:13.760 --> 00:57:16.159
<v Speaker 5>you say a lot of people weren't done that. Yeah,

962
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:18.719
<v Speaker 5>that was a lot of eighteen hour days. But we

963
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:22.800
<v Speaker 5>shot on Panavision thirty five cameras, we use all our

964
00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:25.760
<v Speaker 5>lighting equipment, and it was directed by someone that they

965
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:29.280
<v Speaker 5>actually hired, Ron Link. It is what it is, but

966
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:31.480
<v Speaker 5>it was a fantastic learning experience.

967
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:34.320
<v Speaker 2>To tell you that, oh, how does the Brave come

968
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:34.559
<v Speaker 2>to you?

969
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.400
<v Speaker 5>I just graduated worked on Zombie High, and like most

970
00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:43.000
<v Speaker 5>film school graduates, I got a job working at a

971
00:57:43.760 --> 00:57:48.199
<v Speaker 5>production company at Universal reading scripts assistant thing, and one

972
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.519
<v Speaker 5>of my fellow students actually was there working the same thing,

973
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:55.400
<v Speaker 5>kind of story editor, script reader, and she came across

974
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:59.880
<v Speaker 5>a little blurb about The Brave, the novel I think

975
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:03.679
<v Speaker 5>publishers weekly as story editors do see what's coming out,

976
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:05.760
<v Speaker 5>and she said, oh, oh, this sounds like your kind

977
00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.199
<v Speaker 5>of story, knowing my tendency to go for dark tragedies,

978
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:13.000
<v Speaker 5>and so we got a copy of it, and I

979
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.559
<v Speaker 5>read it, and I think I had a good sense

980
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:18.840
<v Speaker 5>of story, and I read it and I said, well,

981
00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:23.199
<v Speaker 5>this is absolutely easily going to be incredible self. It's

982
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:27.480
<v Speaker 5>really sparingly i've ever read the novel it's but it's

983
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:31.400
<v Speaker 5>very sparing. It's very visual as a single protagonist, as

984
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:35.599
<v Speaker 5>a clear art. And of course what appealed me was

985
00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:40.000
<v Speaker 5>the very clear christ. I said, I could write this,

986
00:58:40.599 --> 00:58:42.679
<v Speaker 5>leak it. I know exactly how this was going to

987
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:45.840
<v Speaker 5>look on screen. I had written a couple of shorts

988
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:49.559
<v Speaker 5>at USC that had a kind of bleaked dark tone

989
00:58:49.639 --> 00:58:52.920
<v Speaker 5>and I just knew exactly what the tone the story

990
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:56.119
<v Speaker 5>should be. And so I'm trying to remember. I think

991
00:58:56.199 --> 00:58:59.960
<v Speaker 5>I wrote a letter to gregoram donald's the author book,

992
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:05.760
<v Speaker 5>wrote to his agent and let it go well, I said,

993
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.360
<v Speaker 5>if you're honest, I think the first thing I did

994
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:09.320
<v Speaker 5>was I went to his ease and I said, because

995
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:13.679
<v Speaker 5>seemed to scrabbling to be a producer. And I said, Disease,

996
00:59:13.679 --> 00:59:16.079
<v Speaker 5>I could write this. We could get to give us money,

997
00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:19.559
<v Speaker 5>it's no problem. And he didn't have any connections. I

998
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:23.719
<v Speaker 5>didn't really have any connections. So I wrote to McDonald

999
00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.239
<v Speaker 5>I think somehow we got his all the dress. There

1000
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:30.320
<v Speaker 5>is agent's dress that I wrote a letter and I said, essentially, listen,

1001
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:34.480
<v Speaker 5>I poured out my idea of what this film is about. Well,

1002
00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:37.119
<v Speaker 5>it would be about how I would adapt it. And

1003
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:38.599
<v Speaker 5>I said, I'll tell you what. I'll write you the

1004
00:59:38.679 --> 00:59:41.760
<v Speaker 5>first act and i'll send it. Can you tell me

1005
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:43.480
<v Speaker 5>what you think? If you don't like it, fine, just

1006
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:46.280
<v Speaker 5>broke me trash. So I did it. I just wrote

1007
00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:49.000
<v Speaker 5>the first act, sent it to him and he said

1008
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.159
<v Speaker 5>I love it. And he said I'll option it to

1009
00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:56.519
<v Speaker 5>Disease for a very small sum. Because he had no money,

1010
00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.639
<v Speaker 5>and that's what did and so then I wrote it.

1011
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:02.719
<v Speaker 5>It got me an agent, It got a lot of attention.

1012
01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:06.440
<v Speaker 5>People loved it. Of course, anyone in the studio said, yeah,

1013
01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:08.599
<v Speaker 5>I love it. I can't make it here. Obviously a

1014
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:12.320
<v Speaker 5>sort of a stuff rebed, but they all said, oh,

1015
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:13.840
<v Speaker 5>I'd love to make this if I had a deal

1016
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.679
<v Speaker 5>that was somewhere else. Oh, I'd make this yet And

1017
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:22.239
<v Speaker 5>then kind of stuff began to happen. Not to go

1018
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:26.320
<v Speaker 5>into too much, but Disease was a volatile person and

1019
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:30.559
<v Speaker 5>he saw this as his ticket, as did I, which

1020
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:36.119
<v Speaker 5>it was, and so we began to show it around

1021
01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:38.679
<v Speaker 5>and have meetings all over Hollywood with all sorts of people,

1022
01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:42.639
<v Speaker 5>and no one, of course, wanted to have him on board.

1023
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:47.679
<v Speaker 5>He was just a bald person because he had technically

1024
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:52.360
<v Speaker 5>optioned it. He was attached to it and refused to

1025
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:56.000
<v Speaker 5>give it up. And we tried to say, listen, we

1026
01:00:56.119 --> 01:00:59.519
<v Speaker 5>can get this very big name people. They could get

1027
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:03.719
<v Speaker 5>di Spabe, but you're gonna have to step down. He wouldn't.

1028
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:08.079
<v Speaker 5>And there was some other personal things going on in

1029
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:11.239
<v Speaker 5>his life, which is where it gets really intense. But

1030
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:14.039
<v Speaker 5>you can read about some of that stuff. I don't

1031
01:01:14.079 --> 01:01:18.039
<v Speaker 5>need to go into too much detail, but to be honest, yeah,

1032
01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:20.119
<v Speaker 5>I'm to have you read the script as it's floating

1033
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:24.199
<v Speaker 5>around somewhere, so if yeah, yes they have and it's

1034
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:27.079
<v Speaker 5>the story of a margin. And as I said, said Christling, right,

1035
01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:32.599
<v Speaker 5>and unfortunately, the Seas began to see himself in that

1036
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:38.480
<v Speaker 5>role as someone who needs to sacrifice a lot and

1037
01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:42.519
<v Speaker 5>a lot of stuff. Then went on in there, and

1038
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:47.119
<v Speaker 5>ultimately a very big tragedy happened. And then after we

1039
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:50.760
<v Speaker 5>had been meeting with oh Stone and Judy Foster, you

1040
01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:55.079
<v Speaker 5>name it, the big tragedy happened. And then it was

1041
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.480
<v Speaker 5>just dropped like a hot potato understandable reasons. It was

1042
01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:02.400
<v Speaker 5>just this horrific tragedy. There's more to I could say,

1043
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.679
<v Speaker 5>but that was what happened. So then for a year

1044
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:07.519
<v Speaker 5>or two the rights were still in his name. It

1045
01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.800
<v Speaker 5>was just a nightmare. And so then a couple of

1046
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:16.079
<v Speaker 5>young producers, Carol Kemp and Charlie Evans, had formed a company.

1047
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:21.199
<v Speaker 5>They managed to buy the rights from this state. I

1048
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:23.760
<v Speaker 5>don't know exactly how they did that, but they did,

1049
01:02:23.960 --> 01:02:26.360
<v Speaker 5>and they said, okay, we're going to resurrect this bill

1050
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.760
<v Speaker 5>pun intended and see if we can't get this bad,

1051
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:34.440
<v Speaker 5>and to their credit, they did. They did the legwork

1052
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:38.559
<v Speaker 5>and showed it around and I was less involved with

1053
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:42.199
<v Speaker 5>that at that point because they had the script and

1054
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:47.320
<v Speaker 5>they eventually make a long story short found his way

1055
01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:49.880
<v Speaker 5>to Jaradi deep. This is where I have to just

1056
01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:53.400
<v Speaker 5>try to understand things from Afar. But he liked it

1057
01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:56.360
<v Speaker 5>and he said, yep, let's make this. However, I have

1058
01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.880
<v Speaker 5>to start in it and direct it, and so that's

1059
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:03.519
<v Speaker 5>what happened, and I was really not involved, to be honest.

1060
01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:05.599
<v Speaker 2>They just said, step aside, you're good.

1061
01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:06.320
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

1062
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:11.400
<v Speaker 5>Once Johnny Depp got involved and he was rewriting it,

1063
01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:14.320
<v Speaker 5>which I discovered, and directing and starring in it. I

1064
01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:20.159
<v Speaker 5>was the typical writer. I was watching from afart. I

1065
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:24.280
<v Speaker 5>got to give Charlie and Carol credit. They did try

1066
01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:27.559
<v Speaker 5>to fight for me to be involved, but Johnny was

1067
01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:28.960
<v Speaker 5>not having it. I got to go over to the

1068
01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:32.000
<v Speaker 5>set once, I to this day had not met Johnny.

1069
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:35.760
<v Speaker 5>And then the film went to can and again Charlie

1070
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:38.719
<v Speaker 5>and Carroll, to their credit, wangled me some tickets to

1071
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.519
<v Speaker 5>my wife and I got to go to the PLA

1072
01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:44.360
<v Speaker 5>and we saw the film. And I don't know if

1073
01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:44.800
<v Speaker 5>you've seen it.

1074
01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:48.559
<v Speaker 2>I have seen that. Yeah, yeah, I'm curious about your

1075
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:49.119
<v Speaker 2>thoughts about it.

1076
01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:52.119
<v Speaker 5>I wasn't involved in the making of it, so I

1077
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:56.159
<v Speaker 5>it was interesting. A lot of choices made there that

1078
01:03:56.199 --> 01:03:59.079
<v Speaker 5>I wouldn't admit. That's all I can say. Really. The

1079
01:03:59.199 --> 01:04:02.280
<v Speaker 5>main one, of course, that it's not a Christal so

1080
01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:06.519
<v Speaker 5>I think the story of that's the central consteat. But

1081
01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:09.760
<v Speaker 5>that's okay. Was the great experience. It got me agent,

1082
01:04:09.880 --> 01:04:12.440
<v Speaker 5>It got me a lot of work, and it taught

1083
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:15.519
<v Speaker 5>me a lot. As I like to say, some people

1084
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:19.079
<v Speaker 5>have a great beginning in Hollywood, and they I have

1085
01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:21.559
<v Speaker 5>some kind of terrible things happening later on. I had

1086
01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:24.800
<v Speaker 5>the terrible stuff happened right at the beginning. Got it

1087
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:26.320
<v Speaker 5>out of the way, get it out of the way,

1088
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:29.840
<v Speaker 5>Get all that tragedy, all that real horrific stuff out

1089
01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:32.000
<v Speaker 5>of the way. So from then on it was great. No,

1090
01:04:32.119 --> 01:04:34.960
<v Speaker 5>I got to meet some great people, write some great stories.

1091
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:38.039
<v Speaker 5>But as I say, HBO was great. I really there

1092
01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.760
<v Speaker 5>were some great executives to HBOS, a great projects, and

1093
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:45.639
<v Speaker 5>me in the studios, I was always the one they

1094
01:04:45.679 --> 01:04:47.880
<v Speaker 5>would bring into and write their kind of pet projects

1095
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:49.920
<v Speaker 5>and production company. I'll really want to do the story

1096
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:53.079
<v Speaker 5>to destroy in Joan of Arc and Lorenzo de Medici

1097
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.639
<v Speaker 5>won on the locker beat playing disaster for Columbia. That

1098
01:04:56.840 --> 01:04:59.519
<v Speaker 5>was I thought turned out really well for Sean Connery's

1099
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:04.440
<v Speaker 5>but those were all production company projects that may or

1100
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:07.159
<v Speaker 5>may not get made. Most of course didn't. Some other stuff.

1101
01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:08.920
<v Speaker 5>I wrote an episode, I'm sure you know, from the

1102
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:12.320
<v Speaker 5>Earth to the Moon. I think they were counting on

1103
01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:16.800
<v Speaker 5>my scientific backgrounders, I think, But again that one was

1104
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:20.760
<v Speaker 5>a little rewritten, that episode, and that was a little frustrating.

1105
01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:24.239
<v Speaker 5>I saw it as Apollo twelve was the only all

1106
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:27.920
<v Speaker 5>needy crew for the Apollo missions, so I wrote it

1107
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:31.519
<v Speaker 5>as short leaves on the women and I don't help they,

1108
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:36.159
<v Speaker 5>so quite that way, I couldn't say a lot more

1109
01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:41.039
<v Speaker 5>about the whole disaster with disease and this tragedy his

1110
01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:44.119
<v Speaker 5>family and all, and there were a lot of people

1111
01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:49.519
<v Speaker 5>caught up in that, and usc was caught up in it,

1112
01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:52.760
<v Speaker 5>and it was a big mess, and to stay it

1113
01:05:52.840 --> 01:05:55.239
<v Speaker 5>breaks my heart what happened to him and his family

1114
01:05:55.360 --> 01:06:00.199
<v Speaker 5>and with then the survivors, his two sons, and I

1115
01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:03.960
<v Speaker 5>have to separate that from the gratitude I have for

1116
01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:08.800
<v Speaker 5>it really getting me to be able to write stories. Yeah,

1117
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:11.400
<v Speaker 5>it's the oldest story in Hollywood. The writer sits there

1118
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:14.719
<v Speaker 5>in the sidelines and pops its bubble of sheets to

1119
01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:16.280
<v Speaker 5>keep the stress level down.

1120
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:18.000
<v Speaker 1>It was what it was.

1121
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.679
<v Speaker 2>It never got released, of course, for reasons you probably

1122
01:06:22.719 --> 01:06:26.679
<v Speaker 2>can tell. I was curious how that experience was for you,

1123
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:29.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of watching that unfold as far as because I've

1124
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:33.079
<v Speaker 2>heard different theories as to why it wasn't released here,

1125
01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:34.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm curious what your take on it was.

1126
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:39.440
<v Speaker 5>Charlie and Carroll tried to sell it around, and I

1127
01:06:39.559 --> 01:06:41.639
<v Speaker 5>think a lot of it, to be honest, was there

1128
01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:44.760
<v Speaker 5>was just this kind of taint from the tragedy that

1129
01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:47.360
<v Speaker 5>had happened, and people just didn't want to be associated.

1130
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:51.000
<v Speaker 5>It was just cursed in a way. It didn't help

1131
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:56.599
<v Speaker 5>that the filmmakers maybe didn't understand the central meaning of

1132
01:06:56.679 --> 01:06:58.519
<v Speaker 5>the story. But I think there was just a lot

1133
01:06:58.559 --> 01:07:01.000
<v Speaker 5>of sense of, oh, yeah, we met that guy, we

1134
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:03.920
<v Speaker 5>weft about this project. We loved it, but now there's

1135
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:08.559
<v Speaker 5>just something untouchable about it. Had a better, different film,

1136
01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:12.960
<v Speaker 5>it might have gotten released, but it was. It is

1137
01:07:13.079 --> 01:07:17.800
<v Speaker 5>surprising to me that it never twenty years, whatever it is,

1138
01:07:18.800 --> 01:07:22.079
<v Speaker 5>it's really seen the light of day anywhere and I

1139
01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:25.079
<v Speaker 5>think a lot of that is probably because the filmmakers

1140
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:30.159
<v Speaker 5>prefer it that way. But I didn't just speculating, Well.

1141
01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:33.000
<v Speaker 2>It is good that you're still able to get gigs

1142
01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and everything after that, because if the film's not released,

1143
01:07:36.039 --> 01:07:39.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe you just get swept away with that. So I'm

1144
01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:41.559
<v Speaker 2>glad that didn't affect you in that way.

1145
01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:44.800
<v Speaker 5>Oh No, I had a great career there for fifteen years,

1146
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:48.079
<v Speaker 5>running great projects, so I really not all were great.

1147
01:07:48.519 --> 01:07:50.599
<v Speaker 5>Most of them are really fascinating and I got to

1148
01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:55.480
<v Speaker 5>really I enjoy doing research sheet projects into delving into

1149
01:07:55.639 --> 01:07:59.159
<v Speaker 5>historical ideas, and so that was great. I did one

1150
01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.760
<v Speaker 5>for each that I really liked, and I still think

1151
01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:04.639
<v Speaker 5>it would make a good film about based on the

1152
01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:09.079
<v Speaker 5>true story about two identical twin Chinese brothers who were

1153
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:13.119
<v Speaker 5>separated by the Revolution China. One Their father sent one

1154
01:08:13.199 --> 01:08:15.440
<v Speaker 5>to a fight with the communists and one to fight

1155
01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:18.399
<v Speaker 5>with the nationalists, thinking one of them will survive, and

1156
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:21.720
<v Speaker 5>that the brother fought the Communists went through this hell

1157
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:26.079
<v Speaker 5>and high water and survived the revolution and lived in poverty.

1158
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:28.319
<v Speaker 5>The one who walked the Nationalists went to Taiwan, became

1159
01:08:28.359 --> 01:08:31.479
<v Speaker 5>a millionaire, ran at TV station, and then forty years later,

1160
01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:34.479
<v Speaker 5>the one in mainland hurt his brother's voice on the

1161
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:39.520
<v Speaker 5>radio from Taiwan, and they were reunited. They were reunited,

1162
01:08:39.600 --> 01:08:42.439
<v Speaker 5>but they were no longer identical twins. They were now

1163
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:45.479
<v Speaker 5>as different as your people can be, and in fact

1164
01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:49.840
<v Speaker 5>they were not even brothers. They learned different worlds. That

1165
01:08:49.960 --> 01:08:53.119
<v Speaker 5>was a really interesting project and I still think that

1166
01:08:53.199 --> 01:08:57.119
<v Speaker 5>would make a really good, interesting film. And as I said, HBO,

1167
01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:00.279
<v Speaker 5>I worked on a few projects them and they were

1168
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:05.079
<v Speaker 5>right there. Really they were taking chances and making writing

1169
01:09:05.159 --> 01:09:10.199
<v Speaker 5>scripts that were of limiting interests to the HBO audience

1170
01:09:10.239 --> 01:09:14.119
<v Speaker 5>at the time. But that was great for me from Phoenix,

1171
01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:20.239
<v Speaker 5>like from the disaster beginning. It really worked out so

1172
01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:22.720
<v Speaker 5>that I was able to work on some great projects

1173
01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:27.159
<v Speaker 5>and not all they were not like great was Unicorn

1174
01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:30.520
<v Speaker 5>in a way, And it's just it's still a shame

1175
01:09:31.439 --> 01:09:34.319
<v Speaker 5>of such a clear, simple allegory.

1176
01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:39.680
<v Speaker 2>You said to your fellow former student and coworker read

1177
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:41.960
<v Speaker 2>about this and was like, oh, you're perfect for this.

1178
01:09:42.159 --> 01:09:45.319
<v Speaker 2>You like bleak material. How did you get that reputation?

1179
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:47.720
<v Speaker 2>And do you actually really enjoy bleak material?

1180
01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:50.760
<v Speaker 5>It's just yeah, I always say bleak, but I always

1181
01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:54.880
<v Speaker 5>hate people in Hollywood tragedies win awards, comedies made money,

1182
01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:58.039
<v Speaker 5>and I was always more interested in tragedies. I don't

1183
01:09:58.079 --> 01:10:02.720
<v Speaker 5>know why, but I've always the Godfather being the peak

1184
01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:08.119
<v Speaker 5>example of great tragedies in the Aristotelian sense, and so

1185
01:10:08.680 --> 01:10:11.800
<v Speaker 5>doesn't mean something dies in the end, but that's just

1186
01:10:12.039 --> 01:10:14.439
<v Speaker 5>always what I've liked. And the couple of films I

1187
01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:17.680
<v Speaker 5>wrote short films, I wrote polls through a Sea. There

1188
01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:21.319
<v Speaker 5>was one set in the fourteenth century. This Night to

1189
01:10:21.479 --> 01:10:23.840
<v Speaker 5>Night did got a little buzz at the time, and

1190
01:10:24.039 --> 01:10:27.479
<v Speaker 5>student fellow students were, well, I think they enjoyed it

1191
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:32.119
<v Speaker 5>because it was a tragic, big historical story shot in

1192
01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:34.920
<v Speaker 5>twenty minutes. In film school, and I know those are

1193
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:37.479
<v Speaker 5>just the kind of stories of interest me. I love

1194
01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:41.079
<v Speaker 5>a good comedy in the Ristatilian sense, not necessarily funny,

1195
01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:44.760
<v Speaker 5>but I think that there's I don't know, something is

1196
01:10:44.840 --> 01:10:49.079
<v Speaker 5>attracted to stories where characters pay a bigger price than

1197
01:10:49.159 --> 01:10:53.039
<v Speaker 5>they expected to pay. And when I teach film and

1198
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:55.159
<v Speaker 5>I always tell my students, look at the films that

1199
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:59.119
<v Speaker 5>win big awards, they're usually tragedies. And look at the

1200
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.640
<v Speaker 5>films that make money, stopping over charge, they're all comments.

1201
01:11:03.439 --> 01:11:06.159
<v Speaker 5>And that's fine. It's a place for both. But I'm

1202
01:11:06.239 --> 01:11:10.880
<v Speaker 5>just attracted to characters who have laws that are brought out.

1203
01:11:12.600 --> 01:11:15.840
<v Speaker 5>Don't ask me why, no, baby, it's watching too much

1204
01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:19.920
<v Speaker 5>Dark Victory with my Bob Steel. Something. I remember watching

1205
01:11:20.359 --> 01:11:25.119
<v Speaker 5>The Night cowbolaying the fact when I was probably came

1206
01:11:25.159 --> 01:11:29.439
<v Speaker 5>out seventy years so and just being for ad bites

1207
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:33.000
<v Speaker 5>in that Storytelle, That's true, And I still always have

1208
01:11:33.319 --> 01:11:36.119
<v Speaker 5>a spec thing, and I'm working on the background and

1209
01:11:36.239 --> 01:11:39.479
<v Speaker 5>for better one. Several of them are indeed the blot

1210
01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:43.359
<v Speaker 5>characters can pay a price, unfortunately, and then I want

1211
01:11:43.399 --> 01:11:46.399
<v Speaker 5>to get out of myself box here. Those are tragedies.

1212
01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:54.279
<v Speaker 5>Theirs detealing tragedies are free, rare. The entire Marvel subculture.

1213
01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:58.199
<v Speaker 5>I just don't get those films, just don't get them.

1214
01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:01.840
<v Speaker 5>But there are still some filmmaker out there who understand

1215
01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:04.960
<v Speaker 5>storytelling in a deep way. They're getting older, of course,

1216
01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:07.960
<v Speaker 5>he is still a genius. It is getting older, but

1217
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:13.000
<v Speaker 5>I think that there's still some sense that there are

1218
01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:15.880
<v Speaker 5>other kinds of stories. They're ones that have numbers in

1219
01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:20.199
<v Speaker 5>the time, and I would I'd love to work on

1220
01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:22.399
<v Speaker 5>some of those projects. And as I said, I've got

1221
01:12:22.920 --> 01:12:25.199
<v Speaker 5>always working on a couple of spec ideas, but it's

1222
01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:30.039
<v Speaker 5>tough that only as the business changed since the graphic

1223
01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:32.359
<v Speaker 5>novel Coming with World came out. Kind of when I

1224
01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:38.119
<v Speaker 5>loved Hollywood mid two thousands, then the whole streaming world.

1225
01:12:38.159 --> 01:12:43.399
<v Speaker 5>I'd missed that tire. That's real change, Sason Covid. So

1226
01:12:43.560 --> 01:12:48.079
<v Speaker 5>I don't even I have an ancient apparently somewhere. I

1227
01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:51.319
<v Speaker 5>think it's still out there, but I don't know who's buying.

1228
01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:57.000
<v Speaker 5>It's really crazy upside down world. It was great to

1229
01:12:57.079 --> 01:13:01.680
<v Speaker 5>see Netflix in them for a decade, pouring money into

1230
01:13:01.760 --> 01:13:06.000
<v Speaker 5>projects that was great, some really good stuff, But now

1231
01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:09.479
<v Speaker 5>that seems too drive up. So yeah, you probably have

1232
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:13.079
<v Speaker 5>a better sense of the business, how the business is changing.

1233
01:13:13.840 --> 01:13:16.680
<v Speaker 5>But yeah, I don't know who bakes those kind of

1234
01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:23.960
<v Speaker 5>HBO type films. Kind of was Netflix for a while, Hulu,

1235
01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:29.840
<v Speaker 5>but yeah, who does it? In studios? Gosh wow, I mean,

1236
01:13:29.920 --> 01:13:34.119
<v Speaker 5>these horror film studios interesting because they've carved out a

1237
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:37.319
<v Speaker 5>space for them in the horror genre. And some horror

1238
01:13:37.800 --> 01:13:41.760
<v Speaker 5>films are interesting. Our asters could be talented filmmaker, and

1239
01:13:41.880 --> 01:13:46.720
<v Speaker 5>Mike's Flanning plan against pretty talented. Those are interesting, but

1240
01:13:47.000 --> 01:13:50.399
<v Speaker 5>they're just such a narrow genre, such a fine line

1241
01:13:50.439 --> 01:13:54.039
<v Speaker 5>between that and the torture more. It's really tough to

1242
01:13:54.119 --> 01:13:58.119
<v Speaker 5>have bought that line. I just watched It's a parenting

1243
01:13:58.960 --> 01:14:04.359
<v Speaker 5>and you could see a really interesting idea there and

1244
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:09.520
<v Speaker 5>then just follows into the goopy guts. Yeah, I don't know,

1245
01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:14.880
<v Speaker 5>it's tough. They're small mid budgets, not sty mid budget,

1246
01:14:15.000 --> 01:14:19.039
<v Speaker 5>but just brahmas and tragedies that aren't based on dry

1247
01:14:19.279 --> 01:14:25.159
<v Speaker 5>historical English history that we're going to do something historical.

1248
01:14:25.279 --> 01:14:29.640
<v Speaker 5>I'm interesting is I said the locker be playing as

1249
01:14:29.880 --> 01:14:33.520
<v Speaker 5>that was a great watch shot and that was stuff

1250
01:14:33.560 --> 01:14:36.840
<v Speaker 5>with I see them they well, we just came out

1251
01:14:36.840 --> 01:14:40.479
<v Speaker 5>with that the locker bew one with it was on

1252
01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:43.680
<v Speaker 5>one of the streams and it was interesting actually because

1253
01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:46.520
<v Speaker 5>they chose the point of view one of the parents,

1254
01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:48.439
<v Speaker 5>and I showed the point of view of the cow.

1255
01:14:48.560 --> 01:14:50.640
<v Speaker 5>But hey, yeah, because it was shocked.

1256
01:14:51.479 --> 01:14:53.159
<v Speaker 2>There's not a lot I can ask you about your

1257
01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:55.600
<v Speaker 2>physical class, but I'm curious do you have any sort

1258
01:14:55.640 --> 01:14:57.720
<v Speaker 2>of specialties when it comes to the film classes that

1259
01:14:57.800 --> 01:14:58.159
<v Speaker 2>you teach.

1260
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:01.760
<v Speaker 5>I'm now in the small time. I live in Steamboa, Sphings, Colorado,

1261
01:15:02.039 --> 01:15:04.079
<v Speaker 5>and it's about it as far from all in this

1262
01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:06.640
<v Speaker 5>get but I do teach a class, and we have

1263
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:09.680
<v Speaker 5>some yellow students. There's some high school kids.

1264
01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:14.640
<v Speaker 9>I really enjoy hating young people and teaching them what

1265
01:15:15.079 --> 01:15:19.039
<v Speaker 9>film is because they are this is their idea to

1266
01:15:19.359 --> 01:15:24.439
<v Speaker 9>right and to really preach about what film really is

1267
01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:27.159
<v Speaker 9>and storytelling this and visual storytelling.

1268
01:15:27.560 --> 01:15:29.640
<v Speaker 5>I think that's a lot of fun. So we worked

1269
01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:33.239
<v Speaker 5>with a lot of younger kids and some older. They

1270
01:15:33.319 --> 01:15:35.560
<v Speaker 5>just try to get them to think visually and write

1271
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:40.680
<v Speaker 5>fishing and it's telly insta these days, even if it's Netflix,

1272
01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:46.479
<v Speaker 5>the Beautiful Cinematograph and it's still a dialogue based still,

1273
01:15:46.880 --> 01:15:50.399
<v Speaker 5>as I tell my student students that when you watch Netflix,

1274
01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:52.840
<v Speaker 5>even the best things on Netflix, to keep the lights

1275
01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:56.199
<v Speaker 5>on in room. You wouldn't do that in a movie, Richie.

1276
01:15:56.800 --> 01:16:00.720
<v Speaker 5>And because you're listening basically not reading, watching, you're enjoy

1277
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:03.960
<v Speaker 5>that pictures but ridicously. So I liked to get on

1278
01:16:04.039 --> 01:16:07.880
<v Speaker 5>myself bobs and talk about visual storytelling. They're mostly young,

1279
01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:12.600
<v Speaker 5>all of me. Their stories are some signs of the

1280
01:16:12.680 --> 01:16:19.239
<v Speaker 5>whole realm. But I enjoyed that and it's fun to proctize.

1281
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:25.399
<v Speaker 5>I absolutely believe that film is twenty to cent shorty

1282
01:16:26.119 --> 01:16:30.119
<v Speaker 5>American and French art form that will never be curseed.

1283
01:16:30.159 --> 01:16:33.159
<v Speaker 5>COVID won't kill it, streaming won't kill it, and nothing's

1284
01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:36.000
<v Speaker 5>going to kill it. We love to be your stuts there.

1285
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:40.520
<v Speaker 5>I think it's essential that we feed that love as

1286
01:16:40.600 --> 01:16:44.600
<v Speaker 5>much as we can, and not by doing Spider at

1287
01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:48.279
<v Speaker 5>twelve or something. So yeah, it's a chance for me

1288
01:16:49.079 --> 01:16:52.720
<v Speaker 5>to spread the gospel about building a little bit. But yeah,

1289
01:16:52.880 --> 01:16:57.239
<v Speaker 5>it's far from Bob. It's fun. Although it's interesting because

1290
01:16:57.439 --> 01:17:02.640
<v Speaker 5>I sometimes bill as a student the storytelling has changed

1291
01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:05.399
<v Speaker 5>in seventy five years, it's still all the same. I

1292
01:17:05.479 --> 01:17:07.920
<v Speaker 5>try to watch all the Oscar Moltadata shorts each year

1293
01:17:08.520 --> 01:17:11.239
<v Speaker 5>and there's some good ones and bad ones, but nothing

1294
01:17:11.319 --> 01:17:15.199
<v Speaker 5>has changed, just the technology. They're all shot beautiful two

1295
01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:19.319
<v Speaker 5>K and great sound and beautifully lit. But the stories

1296
01:17:19.359 --> 01:17:25.159
<v Speaker 5>there's could be there, dear Center. Yeah, no, the Brave

1297
01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:29.960
<v Speaker 5>was a great experience and our horror experience, and to

1298
01:17:30.039 --> 01:17:32.560
<v Speaker 5>be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way. Of

1299
01:17:32.600 --> 01:17:36.079
<v Speaker 5>course I would have well people well trenched, But personally

1300
01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:40.760
<v Speaker 5>I think it was a great experience to learn and

1301
01:17:41.079 --> 01:17:43.439
<v Speaker 5>as except I like my tragedies.

1302
01:17:43.640 --> 01:17:44.079
<v Speaker 1>There you go.

1303
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.560
<v Speaker 5>It confirmed my world vide that bad things could happen,

1304
01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:53.439
<v Speaker 5>bad things could happen the gogfile. Best of intentions can

1305
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:57.720
<v Speaker 5>lead to the worst of outcomes sometimes and go to

1306
01:17:57.800 --> 01:17:59.920
<v Speaker 5>my sapbox. But we're living an interesting time.

1307
01:18:01.239 --> 01:18:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, mister mccutnon. It's great talking with you.

1308
01:18:04.279 --> 01:18:06.279
<v Speaker 5>Thanks Mike, I appreciate it. And as I said, give

1309
01:18:06.279 --> 01:18:07.279
<v Speaker 5>a cuestion to me any time.

1310
01:18:34.920 --> 01:18:36.760
<v Speaker 2>All Right, we are back and we were talking about

1311
01:18:36.800 --> 01:18:39.720
<v Speaker 2>The Brave and yeah, watching some of those clips from CON,

1312
01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:42.560
<v Speaker 2>it did not seem like Depp had a good time

1313
01:18:43.199 --> 01:18:45.479
<v Speaker 2>making this movie. He just kept talking about how hard

1314
01:18:45.560 --> 01:18:48.520
<v Speaker 2>it was and how hard it was directing himself, and

1315
01:18:49.319 --> 01:18:52.199
<v Speaker 2>just not really enjoying it. I know he had done

1316
01:18:52.199 --> 01:18:55.319
<v Speaker 2>a couple shorts and some music videos. I think he's

1317
01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:59.920
<v Speaker 2>done music videos since this period of from ninety seven,

1318
01:19:00.159 --> 01:19:02.720
<v Speaker 2>but I guess he just got kind of scared off

1319
01:19:02.760 --> 01:19:05.079
<v Speaker 2>of it. And apparently the reason that we don't have

1320
01:19:05.239 --> 01:19:08.279
<v Speaker 2>the movie in this country is because of that critical

1321
01:19:08.319 --> 01:19:13.000
<v Speaker 2>reaction that happened after the CON screening and just all

1322
01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:15.800
<v Speaker 2>of the reviews that were coming out just lamb basing

1323
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:18.680
<v Speaker 2>this film. And I just don't think it's that bad.

1324
01:19:18.840 --> 01:19:21.840
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you, Spencer does feel very student filmish.

1325
01:19:22.319 --> 01:19:25.399
<v Speaker 2>But the oddest thing was that there were so many

1326
01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:29.399
<v Speaker 2>critics who were really on top of depth because he

1327
01:19:29.560 --> 01:19:32.680
<v Speaker 2>was showing his body and they're just like, oh, it's

1328
01:19:32.800 --> 01:19:34.760
<v Speaker 2>just all of these close ups of him and he's

1329
01:19:34.800 --> 01:19:38.239
<v Speaker 2>so handsome and all this. I'm like, yeah, and basically like,

1330
01:19:38.600 --> 01:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>that's the only thing this man has left in the

1331
01:19:41.159 --> 01:19:44.359
<v Speaker 2>world is his body. So why wouldn't you kind of

1332
01:19:44.439 --> 01:19:48.399
<v Speaker 2>fetishize that with this film, because that is ultimately what

1333
01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:52.640
<v Speaker 2>he is selling to this underground establishment or to the

1334
01:19:52.880 --> 01:19:55.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, to the entire world. I mean, basically, Depp

1335
01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:58.920
<v Speaker 2>is useless to anybody. His character is useless to anybody

1336
01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:01.760
<v Speaker 2>other than a person who wants to buy him to

1337
01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:03.640
<v Speaker 2>kill him, even.

1338
01:20:03.439 --> 01:20:08.199
<v Speaker 7>Within a plot that is about fetishizing his body. I

1339
01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:10.960
<v Speaker 7>had read that before I saw the film, and then

1340
01:20:11.039 --> 01:20:16.640
<v Speaker 7>I was surprised to find out. But wait, he's walking

1341
01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:19.119
<v Speaker 7>around with his shirt open in a really hot place

1342
01:20:19.880 --> 01:20:24.960
<v Speaker 7>and also conjuring the movie image of the brave that

1343
01:20:25.159 --> 01:20:27.800
<v Speaker 7>kind of a filmic iconography, and it just did not

1344
01:20:28.119 --> 01:20:32.560
<v Speaker 7>seem that much. This is like a director with an actor.

1345
01:20:33.159 --> 01:20:36.039
<v Speaker 7>Just compare this movie to like The Place Beyond the

1346
01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:41.039
<v Speaker 7>Pines and the way that Ryan Gosling's body is constantly

1347
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:45.119
<v Speaker 7>fetishized and built up in the first big chunk of

1348
01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:48.560
<v Speaker 7>that film. Depth is not doing anything near that to

1349
01:20:48.760 --> 01:20:53.000
<v Speaker 7>his own body, when certainly the fiends of the film

1350
01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:56.359
<v Speaker 7>could do that could justify it.

1351
01:20:56.840 --> 01:21:00.960
<v Speaker 1>So I find that to be odd and bogus.

1352
01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:03.359
<v Speaker 7>Again, if we want to have a fight with it,

1353
01:21:04.039 --> 01:21:08.600
<v Speaker 7>it's that goes along with when he played Tanto, that

1354
01:21:08.800 --> 01:21:14.119
<v Speaker 7>more problematic way of taking on a very traditional Indigenous

1355
01:21:14.319 --> 01:21:19.159
<v Speaker 7>iconography that's been very much controlled by white people and

1356
01:21:19.239 --> 01:21:22.520
<v Speaker 7>fetishized by white people, And so that just raises the

1357
01:21:22.600 --> 01:21:25.840
<v Speaker 7>question of how much is critique and how much is

1358
01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:29.840
<v Speaker 7>it just playing out the cliche. I think that's an

1359
01:21:29.880 --> 01:21:32.840
<v Speaker 7>argument worth having. But yeah, it's really strange to me

1360
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:37.119
<v Speaker 7>that they needed to make a case against that was personal.

1361
01:21:37.600 --> 01:21:40.319
<v Speaker 7>It's certainly possible to dislike the movie but just just

1362
01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:44.119
<v Speaker 7>treat it like this ultimate bad object and treat Depth

1363
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:48.319
<v Speaker 7>so poorly at that time as a director, the kind

1364
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:50.800
<v Speaker 7>of how dare you I find this to be?

1365
01:21:51.000 --> 01:21:51.039
<v Speaker 10>Like?

1366
01:21:51.319 --> 01:21:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Since we were talking about this at the very beginning, Mike,

1367
01:21:54.920 --> 01:21:58.279
<v Speaker 1>the kinds of films that generate these sorts of responses

1368
01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:03.199
<v Speaker 1>at film festivals. Yes, sure, quite often they're bad, but

1369
01:22:03.439 --> 01:22:08.319
<v Speaker 1>they're also they're often like bad in ways that are

1370
01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:13.439
<v Speaker 1>not nearly so terrible as people say.

1371
01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:17.880
<v Speaker 7>I personally happen to like Southlands Tales, and I know

1372
01:22:18.079 --> 01:22:21.760
<v Speaker 7>plenty of people who don't, and that's fine, we can disagree.

1373
01:22:21.920 --> 01:22:25.880
<v Speaker 1>But Southland Tails is not some kind of crime against aesthetics.

1374
01:22:26.439 --> 01:22:29.600
<v Speaker 7>And honestly, when I first saw it, I expected it

1375
01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:36.159
<v Speaker 7>to be much much crazier in some way. My point

1376
01:22:36.199 --> 01:22:38.560
<v Speaker 7>here being, I do think that these kinds of movies

1377
01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:42.159
<v Speaker 7>are really interesting to look at because they are actually

1378
01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:48.359
<v Speaker 7>quite revealing about the frankly, very staid and conservative standards

1379
01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:53.399
<v Speaker 7>for cinema. At whatever moment that they are unleashed upon

1380
01:22:53.520 --> 01:22:57.880
<v Speaker 7>an unsuspecting can or sun Dance or tell you ride audience,

1381
01:22:58.039 --> 01:22:59.479
<v Speaker 7>that they become an outrage.

1382
01:23:00.359 --> 01:23:03.319
<v Speaker 4>I think the movie's definitely going to have a rediscovery

1383
01:23:03.479 --> 01:23:07.720
<v Speaker 4>at some point, if nothing else, just upon the incredible cast,

1384
01:23:08.359 --> 01:23:12.840
<v Speaker 4>When you got all of those guys Marshall Bell, Frederick Forrest,

1385
01:23:13.000 --> 01:23:19.039
<v Speaker 4>Clarence Williams, Louis Guzman and then mac Perlick and all

1386
01:23:19.479 --> 01:23:22.319
<v Speaker 4>the cameos in there, people are going to find it.

1387
01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:28.359
<v Speaker 4>It'll someday have a US release some confident To your point, Spencer,

1388
01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:30.920
<v Speaker 4>I think people will say what was going on? What

1389
01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:34.319
<v Speaker 4>was in the Water in ninety seven that this was

1390
01:23:35.600 --> 01:23:41.720
<v Speaker 4>so reviled, and honestly, maybe it's depth. Maybe he'd never

1391
01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:46.439
<v Speaker 4>had that kind of response, Maybe he was particularly vulnerable,

1392
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:52.279
<v Speaker 4>and had he released this in the US, that rediscovery

1393
01:23:53.039 --> 01:23:55.800
<v Speaker 4>or possible reclamation may have already happened.

1394
01:23:55.920 --> 01:23:56.359
<v Speaker 5>By now.

1395
01:23:57.279 --> 01:24:00.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad that he was able to especially because it

1396
01:24:00.840 --> 01:24:04.199
<v Speaker 4>sounds like he puts a lot of his own money

1397
01:24:04.319 --> 01:24:08.479
<v Speaker 4>into the production knowing that it wasn't going to be

1398
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:13.319
<v Speaker 4>made back. I think it's great that he was able

1399
01:24:13.359 --> 01:24:16.159
<v Speaker 4>to say, flying fuck it, you don't deserve it. I'm

1400
01:24:16.199 --> 01:24:17.079
<v Speaker 4>not going to let you see it.

1401
01:24:18.000 --> 01:24:19.840
<v Speaker 1>And to the point of putting in his own money.

1402
01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:23.680
<v Speaker 1>That's mentioned in I forget which source, but one of the.

1403
01:24:23.680 --> 01:24:26.880
<v Speaker 7>Stories about how this film was losing its way in

1404
01:24:26.960 --> 01:24:31.760
<v Speaker 7>the world back at the time just tosses off that

1405
01:24:32.000 --> 01:24:35.520
<v Speaker 7>Depp committed the ultimate cinema sin of putting his own

1406
01:24:35.560 --> 01:24:36.439
<v Speaker 7>money into the movie.

1407
01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:40.479
<v Speaker 1>And I just have to say fuck off to all that.

1408
01:24:41.159 --> 01:24:43.960
<v Speaker 7>Not just because there have been a number of movies

1409
01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:46.159
<v Speaker 7>where people put in their own money.

1410
01:24:46.600 --> 01:24:48.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess that's also one of the knocks on orson Wells,

1411
01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:50.800
<v Speaker 1>which I refuse to take.

1412
01:24:51.359 --> 01:24:54.279
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, okay, so he put some of his own money

1413
01:24:54.319 --> 01:24:57.159
<v Speaker 7>into a bunch of his films and nobody else made

1414
01:24:57.199 --> 01:25:00.720
<v Speaker 7>it for fake fuck off with that. And also it

1415
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:03.840
<v Speaker 7>is it's like one of those things too, where it's

1416
01:25:03.920 --> 01:25:07.640
<v Speaker 7>like even somebody wealthy and influential depth has to be

1417
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:11.880
<v Speaker 7>taken down a peg for doing the thing that people

1418
01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:16.159
<v Speaker 7>from much less lofty backgrounds have to do in order

1419
01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:18.000
<v Speaker 7>to get a film made at all, so that then

1420
01:25:18.079 --> 01:25:22.039
<v Speaker 7>they can get into the world of auditioning to get

1421
01:25:22.199 --> 01:25:25.840
<v Speaker 7>somebody else to pay for their movie. On many levels,

1422
01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:30.800
<v Speaker 7>I think that's really strange and problematic. And also you

1423
01:25:30.920 --> 01:25:34.119
<v Speaker 7>mentioned Jed the performances, and this is a really rare

1424
01:25:34.479 --> 01:25:38.800
<v Speaker 7>late brand O performance where he's not trying to torment

1425
01:25:38.880 --> 01:25:41.760
<v Speaker 7>the director. If like the other movies that he did

1426
01:25:41.800 --> 01:25:46.000
<v Speaker 7>at this point in his career, he's doing crazy stuff

1427
01:25:46.039 --> 01:25:50.520
<v Speaker 7>and getting people fired, and refused to call Frank Oz

1428
01:25:50.560 --> 01:25:53.600
<v Speaker 7>anything but miss Piggy when they were on the set

1429
01:25:53.640 --> 01:25:56.199
<v Speaker 7>of the score, and also wouldn't wear pants so that

1430
01:25:57.119 --> 01:25:59.760
<v Speaker 7>they would have to photograph him only from the chest

1431
01:25:59.880 --> 01:26:01.520
<v Speaker 7>up most of the time.

1432
01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:03.680
<v Speaker 1>Brando actually on good.

1433
01:26:03.560 --> 01:26:05.239
<v Speaker 7>Behavior, and I'm not going to say that this is

1434
01:26:05.279 --> 01:26:08.720
<v Speaker 7>an amazing performance from him, but I do think that

1435
01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:12.680
<v Speaker 7>there's something valuable if you're interested in Brando as an

1436
01:26:12.680 --> 01:26:15.800
<v Speaker 7>actor and as a figure, And certainly I am to

1437
01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:19.560
<v Speaker 7>see a performance from this point of his career when

1438
01:26:19.640 --> 01:26:22.920
<v Speaker 7>he did actually show up to work and not just

1439
01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:23.560
<v Speaker 7>see what he.

1440
01:26:23.560 --> 01:26:27.199
<v Speaker 1>Could get away with, like on Island of Lost Souls

1441
01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:28.399
<v Speaker 1>for instance.

1442
01:26:28.600 --> 01:26:30.800
<v Speaker 2>That was the year before was when he was getting

1443
01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Richard Stanley fired.

1444
01:26:32.399 --> 01:26:36.359
<v Speaker 1>There was more than Val Kilmer actually, but yeah, what

1445
01:26:36.520 --> 01:26:37.359
<v Speaker 1>a disaster there.

1446
01:26:37.479 --> 01:26:42.359
<v Speaker 7>But yeah, definitely Brando's behavior did not recommend him on

1447
01:26:42.479 --> 01:26:43.399
<v Speaker 7>that particular film.

1448
01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:46.840
<v Speaker 2>As far as the fetishization of depth, going back to

1449
01:26:46.960 --> 01:26:48.960
<v Speaker 2>what we were talking about before the Break, I think

1450
01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the only real fetishy type scene it plays into the narrative,

1451
01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:59.399
<v Speaker 2>like towards the end, after he kills Guzman, he goes

1452
01:26:59.479 --> 01:27:04.920
<v Speaker 2>to see the Floyd Redcrow Westerman character and he takes

1453
01:27:04.960 --> 01:27:07.920
<v Speaker 2>him in, cleans them up, and there's a shot of

1454
01:27:08.199 --> 01:27:13.680
<v Speaker 2>depth coming out of this water in the moonlight, and

1455
01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:15.840
<v Speaker 2>you get to see his body and everything, and it's

1456
01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:18.000
<v Speaker 2>just like, okay, but not only are they showing you

1457
01:27:18.119 --> 01:27:20.199
<v Speaker 2>his body, but they're showing you this huge cut that

1458
01:27:20.319 --> 01:27:23.319
<v Speaker 2>he has on his chest, and I'm like, okay, yeah,

1459
01:27:23.359 --> 01:27:26.000
<v Speaker 2>this isn't just like look at how beautiful. This man

1460
01:27:26.119 --> 01:27:30.560
<v Speaker 2>is because Johnny Depp was Slash is possibly a beautiful man,

1461
01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>just an absolutely gorgeous guy to look at. You know,

1462
01:27:33.760 --> 01:27:37.399
<v Speaker 2>He's one of these guys who just had that about him.

1463
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:40.680
<v Speaker 2>And he was such a pleasure to look at, and

1464
01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:42.840
<v Speaker 2>he was such a pleasure to watch. And the thing,

1465
01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:45.199
<v Speaker 2>and I probably have said this before on the show,

1466
01:27:45.279 --> 01:27:48.199
<v Speaker 2>and if so, I apologize, the thing I always liked

1467
01:27:48.239 --> 01:27:51.560
<v Speaker 2>about Depp is that he was not just a pretty

1468
01:27:51.640 --> 01:27:56.279
<v Speaker 2>boy actor, like he could have easily have parleyed the

1469
01:27:56.399 --> 01:27:59.159
<v Speaker 2>success that he had on twenty one Jump Street into

1470
01:27:59.359 --> 01:28:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of plain old leading man characters. But

1471
01:28:04.159 --> 01:28:07.119
<v Speaker 2>what does he do. He goes out, he makes freaking

1472
01:28:07.319 --> 01:28:12.760
<v Speaker 2>cry Baby, he makes Edward Scissorhands. He's making Arizona Dream.

1473
01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:16.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, he's doing these challenging films. I mean, what's

1474
01:28:16.279 --> 01:28:18.800
<v Speaker 2>eaton Gilbert Grape? It might have been the first Loss

1475
01:28:18.840 --> 01:28:22.039
<v Speaker 2>of Hellstrom film in the US. He's making ed Wood,

1476
01:28:22.159 --> 01:28:25.399
<v Speaker 2>the way that he ties his star together with Tim Burton,

1477
01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:28.439
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's playing with all of these very interesting

1478
01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:32.199
<v Speaker 2>directors for the longest time. I mean, you mentioned Terry

1479
01:28:32.239 --> 01:28:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Gilliam before that. He comes back and does a part

1480
01:28:35.279 --> 01:28:40.279
<v Speaker 2>of the Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassis and stuff, it's like, yeah,

1481
01:28:40.399 --> 01:28:43.520
<v Speaker 2>that's great, Like, of course, I think he probably should

1482
01:28:43.520 --> 01:28:47.199
<v Speaker 2>have broken with Burton a little bit earlier. Like nobody

1483
01:28:47.319 --> 01:28:50.399
<v Speaker 2>needed that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, nobody needed Alice

1484
01:28:50.439 --> 01:28:54.239
<v Speaker 2>in Wonderland, nobody needed Dark Shadows. You know, the list

1485
01:28:54.279 --> 01:28:56.920
<v Speaker 2>goes on and on. It's like, please unhitch your star

1486
01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:59.119
<v Speaker 2>at some point. But even when it comes to like

1487
01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:02.000
<v Speaker 2>this stuff that he's doing, you know, like he had

1488
01:29:02.960 --> 01:29:06.479
<v Speaker 2>Viki o'phelak as his one of his two dp's on

1489
01:29:06.560 --> 01:29:10.239
<v Speaker 2>this movie, who he had met on Arizona Dream, and

1490
01:29:10.319 --> 01:29:13.359
<v Speaker 2>it's like that's great, Like he's taking all of this town.

1491
01:29:13.399 --> 01:29:15.399
<v Speaker 2>I mean, fucking Iggy Pop is the one that does

1492
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:18.319
<v Speaker 2>the soundtrack. He probably met him on Crybaby because Iggy

1493
01:29:18.359 --> 01:29:21.159
<v Speaker 2>Pop had that small rolling cry Baby. I remember him

1494
01:29:21.199 --> 01:29:23.760
<v Speaker 2>sitting in that tub scrubbing his back and stuff. I

1495
01:29:23.840 --> 01:29:27.319
<v Speaker 2>mean dead man. I mean yeah, working with working with

1496
01:29:27.640 --> 01:29:30.600
<v Speaker 2>with Jarmbush is a fantastic thing. He's working with all

1497
01:29:30.680 --> 01:29:34.560
<v Speaker 2>of these great directors from all over the world, and yeah,

1498
01:29:34.680 --> 01:29:37.279
<v Speaker 2>it's just amazing that he was doing that. And I

1499
01:29:37.399 --> 01:29:39.880
<v Speaker 2>remember telling the story before about you know, when young

1500
01:29:39.920 --> 01:29:43.079
<v Speaker 2>girls would come into the movie theater buying tickets to

1501
01:29:43.159 --> 01:29:46.479
<v Speaker 2>go see Crybaby, and I'm like, uh, this is a

1502
01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:52.880
<v Speaker 2>John Waters film, Like, you probably will not enjoy this,

1503
01:29:53.079 --> 01:29:55.319
<v Speaker 2>but they were all for it because it was Johnny Depp.

1504
01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:59.239
<v Speaker 2>We had so many complaints, so many refunds, because girls

1505
01:29:59.399 --> 01:30:02.000
<v Speaker 2>just thought that they were going to see beautiful Johnny

1506
01:30:02.039 --> 01:30:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Depp on screen, not hatchet face, not you know what

1507
01:30:05.720 --> 01:30:08.880
<v Speaker 2>they ended up seeing on screen. It was so wonderful

1508
01:30:08.880 --> 01:30:11.119
<v Speaker 2>and I loved it so much. And yeah, I just

1509
01:30:11.199 --> 01:30:14.840
<v Speaker 2>always appreciated that about Depp in these early days. And

1510
01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:17.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if to your point, if they were

1511
01:30:17.159 --> 01:30:19.199
<v Speaker 2>just kind of the critics laying in wait for this

1512
01:30:19.319 --> 01:30:21.800
<v Speaker 2>guy who just seemed to be making a lot of

1513
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:24.479
<v Speaker 2>really interesting choices with his early career.

1514
01:30:25.520 --> 01:30:29.079
<v Speaker 7>This is an eccentric film, But I think one interesting

1515
01:30:29.119 --> 01:30:30.680
<v Speaker 7>thing about this is that this is a little bit

1516
01:30:30.720 --> 01:30:32.880
<v Speaker 7>more in the Gilbert Grape territory.

1517
01:30:33.039 --> 01:30:35.199
<v Speaker 1>As a performance, Johnny Depp has.

1518
01:30:35.159 --> 01:30:42.079
<v Speaker 7>Made an incredible career of weirdo roles, strange, restrained, heightened

1519
01:30:42.600 --> 01:30:47.359
<v Speaker 7>mannered kinds of performances. This is one of the more

1520
01:30:47.960 --> 01:30:52.760
<v Speaker 7>restrained and recognizably human performances from him, and I think

1521
01:30:52.800 --> 01:30:54.079
<v Speaker 7>it's a really excellent one.

1522
01:30:54.600 --> 01:30:58.399
<v Speaker 1>There is a kind of blankness built into the character.

1523
01:30:59.439 --> 01:31:02.760
<v Speaker 7>But what gives us is a lot of sense of

1524
01:31:02.840 --> 01:31:08.319
<v Speaker 7>thoughtfulness of someone who is at once not necessarily very smart,

1525
01:31:08.520 --> 01:31:12.800
<v Speaker 7>but who is presented with a lot of situations where

1526
01:31:12.840 --> 01:31:17.960
<v Speaker 7>he is kind of very desperately thinking and feeling on screen.

1527
01:31:18.840 --> 01:31:21.479
<v Speaker 7>And also he didn't have an expert director. He was

1528
01:31:21.600 --> 01:31:24.479
<v Speaker 7>not used to working with first time directors, and here

1529
01:31:24.560 --> 01:31:26.760
<v Speaker 7>he's doing both of these things. And I think that

1530
01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:31.159
<v Speaker 7>might really contribute to having made a first feature. That

1531
01:31:31.279 --> 01:31:34.880
<v Speaker 7>it's enough to break anyone, and if you come back

1532
01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:37.000
<v Speaker 7>for another round, that is something.

1533
01:31:38.239 --> 01:31:42.159
<v Speaker 1>So it's very hard on the most basic level. But yeah,

1534
01:31:42.239 --> 01:31:45.399
<v Speaker 1>for him to act in this and direct it, and

1535
01:31:45.880 --> 01:31:49.159
<v Speaker 1>it is an elaborate production, for the.

1536
01:31:49.239 --> 01:31:52.079
<v Speaker 7>Budget and everything, I'm really not surprised that it was

1537
01:31:52.119 --> 01:31:54.279
<v Speaker 7>an unpleasant shoot.

1538
01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:57.159
<v Speaker 1>For him, and I think it's unfortunate that he didn't

1539
01:31:57.560 --> 01:32:00.479
<v Speaker 1>direct again. But there we are.

1540
01:32:01.520 --> 01:32:03.960
<v Speaker 7>I barely want to mention this because I don't pay

1541
01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:07.159
<v Speaker 7>attention to it myself, But in terms of the future

1542
01:32:07.279 --> 01:32:10.359
<v Speaker 7>fortunes of this, I'm with you, Jed. I think it's

1543
01:32:10.479 --> 01:32:14.239
<v Speaker 7>ready for reevaluation, but I wonder how many people are

1544
01:32:14.279 --> 01:32:18.560
<v Speaker 7>going to be ready to reevaluate it after a grotesque

1545
01:32:18.640 --> 01:32:23.239
<v Speaker 7>and awful divorce that got a lot of attention. I'm

1546
01:32:23.600 --> 01:32:28.560
<v Speaker 7>personally not a Calvinist, so I can't quite see this

1547
01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:32.399
<v Speaker 7>sort of the sin back to the point when Depp

1548
01:32:32.520 --> 01:32:36.319
<v Speaker 7>made this movie, and I'm not really interested in playing

1549
01:32:36.399 --> 01:32:38.840
<v Speaker 7>those games with how we.

1550
01:32:40.479 --> 01:32:41.319
<v Speaker 1>Evaluate Bart.

1551
01:32:41.479 --> 01:32:43.800
<v Speaker 7>But I do think that this is like a really

1552
01:32:43.880 --> 01:32:48.439
<v Speaker 7>strange and challenging movie that's ripe for reappraisal for the Brave,

1553
01:32:49.039 --> 01:32:49.760
<v Speaker 7>if you will.

1554
01:32:50.199 --> 01:32:52.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, we mentioned it very early on. I don't really

1555
01:32:52.560 --> 01:32:54.960
<v Speaker 2>want to get into all of the details of this,

1556
01:32:55.159 --> 01:32:57.880
<v Speaker 2>but I would recommend if people want to know more,

1557
01:32:58.039 --> 01:33:01.039
<v Speaker 2>especially Paul mccutten mentions this all of the things with

1558
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:05.119
<v Speaker 2>Azi's Gazal, the one of the original producers of this film,

1559
01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:11.359
<v Speaker 2>that is a bizarre and gruesome story, and what I

1560
01:33:11.479 --> 01:33:15.399
<v Speaker 2>was reading about him, he was very not healthy, and

1561
01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:19.560
<v Speaker 2>that he murdered his wife and one of his daughters

1562
01:33:20.159 --> 01:33:25.359
<v Speaker 2>before killing himself. So that was in ninety three, I think,

1563
01:33:25.720 --> 01:33:29.479
<v Speaker 2>and that almost put this project completely off the rails

1564
01:33:30.279 --> 01:33:32.560
<v Speaker 2>because we was supposed to start in ninety four, that

1565
01:33:32.720 --> 01:33:34.960
<v Speaker 2>it ever got made at all, that they were able

1566
01:33:35.039 --> 01:33:37.760
<v Speaker 2>to come back from that. Like you said, I think

1567
01:33:37.840 --> 01:33:40.039
<v Speaker 2>this is kind of a cursed film, because there was

1568
01:33:40.159 --> 01:33:43.159
<v Speaker 2>that that whole thing just a lot of times. Oh yeah,

1569
01:33:43.159 --> 01:33:45.159
<v Speaker 2>we're supposed to do this movie. One of the producers

1570
01:33:45.720 --> 01:33:50.680
<v Speaker 2>murdered two people his family and killed himself. Normally, that

1571
01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:54.439
<v Speaker 2>just puts the whole project in turnaround forever. But it's

1572
01:33:54.520 --> 01:33:57.239
<v Speaker 2>amazing that this ever actually got to the screen.

1573
01:33:57.920 --> 01:33:58.560
<v Speaker 5>Well, I guess the.

1574
01:33:58.600 --> 01:34:02.880
<v Speaker 7>Curse extends in that the say problematic a bunch of times,

1575
01:34:02.960 --> 01:34:05.960
<v Speaker 7>but that just goes with the territory. With the people

1576
01:34:06.079 --> 01:34:11.680
<v Speaker 7>generating the project are not Indigenous people dealing with and

1577
01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:17.479
<v Speaker 7>commenting upon issues of an indigenous genocide. It there's I

1578
01:34:17.600 --> 01:34:22.000
<v Speaker 7>suppose also that behind it, and again a tradition and

1579
01:34:22.119 --> 01:34:26.920
<v Speaker 7>filmmaking and and art making more generally, that is a problem,

1580
01:34:27.039 --> 01:34:30.680
<v Speaker 7>but I think also a problem that deserves any number

1581
01:34:31.319 --> 01:34:36.640
<v Speaker 7>of responses, and in particular since the time that this

1582
01:34:36.920 --> 01:34:41.680
<v Speaker 7>was made, thankfully there are a lot more Indigenous filmmakers

1583
01:34:43.319 --> 01:34:47.760
<v Speaker 7>making their comments and telling stories from their experiences out

1584
01:34:47.840 --> 01:34:52.960
<v Speaker 7>of a truly horrifying history that unfortunately is too close

1585
01:34:53.079 --> 01:34:56.760
<v Speaker 7>for comfort in our current moment. Yeah, I guess there

1586
01:34:56.880 --> 01:35:00.159
<v Speaker 7>is also that that's a lot of curse. I do

1587
01:35:00.359 --> 01:35:03.880
<v Speaker 7>really think it's a worthy object to wrestle with. This

1588
01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:07.239
<v Speaker 7>is not just some terrible film that nobody should ever acknowledge,

1589
01:35:07.319 --> 01:35:09.039
<v Speaker 7>and that's very much how it's been treated, and I

1590
01:35:09.079 --> 01:35:13.239
<v Speaker 7>think that's unfortunate. I was really pleasantly surprised, because there

1591
01:35:13.239 --> 01:35:16.439
<v Speaker 7>are cases where there isn't something to rescue in a

1592
01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:18.720
<v Speaker 7>movie that's known to be really bad, much as one

1593
01:35:18.840 --> 01:35:19.439
<v Speaker 7>might want to.

1594
01:35:20.119 --> 01:35:21.960
<v Speaker 1>I guess I'll throw it as an example.

1595
01:35:22.520 --> 01:35:23.439
<v Speaker 5>Maybe the new.

1596
01:35:23.479 --> 01:35:27.640
<v Speaker 7>Director's cut of Blairwitch two Book of Shadows is a

1597
01:35:27.760 --> 01:35:32.520
<v Speaker 7>vast improvement. Much as try as I did back in

1598
01:35:32.680 --> 01:35:36.199
<v Speaker 7>the early two thousands to watch that movie and try

1599
01:35:36.279 --> 01:35:41.399
<v Speaker 7>to rehabilitate it, to no avail. That's unfortunately just a

1600
01:35:41.560 --> 01:35:45.720
<v Speaker 7>bad movie. I don't know that it's quite so terrible.

1601
01:35:45.800 --> 01:35:48.279
<v Speaker 7>It's just boring, quite so terrible, as a lot of

1602
01:35:48.279 --> 01:35:51.039
<v Speaker 7>people said at the time. But some movies, yeah, sure,

1603
01:35:51.159 --> 01:35:55.560
<v Speaker 7>you can't recover when you're going diving for outrages. But

1604
01:35:56.079 --> 01:35:59.760
<v Speaker 7>this is definitely one that I think is worth a look,

1605
01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:01.079
<v Speaker 7>worth some attention.

1606
01:36:01.840 --> 01:36:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I kind of wish that there was a proper version

1607
01:36:06.159 --> 01:36:09.720
<v Speaker 2>of The Lone Ranger, because I've read that Elliott and

1608
01:36:09.880 --> 01:36:14.159
<v Speaker 2>Rossio script, which was so different than the movie, and

1609
01:36:14.359 --> 01:36:18.159
<v Speaker 2>if you watch the movie and know that the William

1610
01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Fickner character is supposed to basically be like a flesh eater,

1611
01:36:22.680 --> 01:36:27.279
<v Speaker 2>and there were originally more much more mysticism. There are

1612
01:36:27.359 --> 01:36:29.640
<v Speaker 2>were wolves in it. The whole thing with the silver

1613
01:36:29.760 --> 01:36:32.359
<v Speaker 2>bullets actually played out with the were wolf stuff. It's

1614
01:36:32.479 --> 01:36:36.520
<v Speaker 2>just like, that was such a much more interesting movie

1615
01:36:36.640 --> 01:36:40.319
<v Speaker 2>than what we ended up with, which it's a flawed film.

1616
01:36:40.399 --> 01:36:43.439
<v Speaker 2>But then, like, now, talk about that word that we

1617
01:36:43.560 --> 01:36:46.920
<v Speaker 2>hate so much. Problematic to have Ernie Hammer and Johnny

1618
01:36:46.960 --> 01:36:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Depp in the same movie. Oh my god, next thing,

1619
01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:52.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you know, Kevin Spacey shows up and

1620
01:36:53.000 --> 01:36:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you're just like, oh my god, what is happening here?

1621
01:36:56.600 --> 01:37:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I definitely agree that depth did deserved a little bit

1622
01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:04.880
<v Speaker 2>better than just having this completely lambassad by critics, And

1623
01:37:05.479 --> 01:37:08.279
<v Speaker 2>I would like, I think more people should check this out.

1624
01:37:08.319 --> 01:37:10.039
<v Speaker 2>It's not the best movie in the world, but it

1625
01:37:10.520 --> 01:37:13.439
<v Speaker 2>doesn't deserve this kind of lost status that it has

1626
01:37:13.520 --> 01:37:16.119
<v Speaker 2>here in the States. All right, guys, let's go ahead

1627
01:37:16.119 --> 01:37:17.960
<v Speaker 2>and take another break and play a preview for next

1628
01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:23.720
<v Speaker 2>week's show. Right after these brief messages, We've.

1629
01:37:23.600 --> 01:37:25.800
<v Speaker 7>Given you everything you've ever wanted.

1630
01:37:26.560 --> 01:37:27.640
<v Speaker 5>How can you do this?

1631
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:28.479
<v Speaker 10>To work?

1632
01:37:29.119 --> 01:37:31.680
<v Speaker 6>This nice house, your own car, swimming pool.

1633
01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:32.520
<v Speaker 2>What more do you want?

1634
01:37:33.479 --> 01:37:34.560
<v Speaker 10>I want to be a star.

1635
01:37:46.880 --> 01:37:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Hello, finally going to meet a real man.

1636
01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Richard Nixon is a lesbian.

1637
01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:14.439
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know that.

1638
01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:15.640
<v Speaker 1>That's right.

1639
01:38:15.680 --> 01:38:17.479
<v Speaker 2>We will be back next week with a look at

1640
01:38:17.560 --> 01:38:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Scarecrow in a Garden of Cucumbers. Until then, I want

1641
01:38:21.079 --> 01:38:23.680
<v Speaker 2>to thank my co host Jedidiah and Spencer so JEDEDDI,

1642
01:38:23.840 --> 01:38:25.239
<v Speaker 2>what's been keeping me busy these days?

1643
01:38:27.119 --> 01:38:28.279
<v Speaker 1>Just watching movies?

1644
01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:31.880
<v Speaker 4>You want to know anything about it, you can find

1645
01:38:31.920 --> 01:38:35.840
<v Speaker 4>me on Letterbox Jededi airs, but I'm not on any

1646
01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:37.439
<v Speaker 4>other social media at the time.

1647
01:38:37.960 --> 01:38:40.600
<v Speaker 2>I am following you on letterbox, my friend, and it's

1648
01:38:41.039 --> 01:38:43.840
<v Speaker 2>always great to see what you're up to. And Spencer,

1649
01:38:43.880 --> 01:38:44.720
<v Speaker 2>what's the latest with you?

1650
01:38:45.199 --> 01:38:48.960
<v Speaker 7>I am finding my way into editing whenever I can,

1651
01:38:49.359 --> 01:38:53.399
<v Speaker 7>so I can finally have a movie done and move

1652
01:38:53.520 --> 01:38:55.119
<v Speaker 7>on to making the next one.

1653
01:38:56.079 --> 01:38:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I look forward to seeing it. Can you invite

1654
01:38:58.560 --> 01:38:59.880
<v Speaker 2>me to the premiere when that happens?

1655
01:39:00.479 --> 01:39:03.119
<v Speaker 1>For sure? Yeah, you're on the comp list for the

1656
01:39:03.199 --> 01:39:03.960
<v Speaker 1>premiere for sure.

1657
01:39:04.720 --> 01:39:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you again guys for being on the show.

1658
01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Thanks to everybody for listening. If you want to hear

1659
01:39:08.560 --> 01:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>more of me shooting off my mouth, check out some

1660
01:39:10.319 --> 01:39:11.880
<v Speaker 2>of the other shows that I work on. They are

1661
01:39:11.920 --> 01:39:15.279
<v Speaker 2>all available at weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks especially to our

1662
01:39:15.319 --> 01:39:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Patreon community. If you want to join the community, visit

1663
01:39:18.000 --> 01:39:21.199
<v Speaker 2>patreon dot com. Slash Projection Booth. Every donation we get

1664
01:39:21.279 --> 01:39:23.399
<v Speaker 2>help some projection Booth take over the world.

1665
01:40:08.079 --> 01:40:36.720
<v Speaker 8>Do anything George don't don't know about, I don't un

1666
01:40:40.319 --> 01:40:47.079
<v Speaker 8>George don't don't know about.

1667
01:40:52.680 --> 01:43:05.239
<v Speaker 3>At an under an, attain the act between act