WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:03.799 All right, So as we've started doing on weekends, here's 2 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:07.879 another compilation. This one is two of my earliest recordings 3 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.880 with Thomas. This is all the way back in twenty twenty. 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.960 It's been a while. Look audio in these kind of scuffed, 5 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:18.559 so remastering it making it sound better. And I was 6 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:20.960 real new to the whole interview, so I've gotten better. 7 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.239 The first one we're talking primarily about fate, about Protestant 8 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:26.960 and the second one doubt kind of light ranging Conda 9 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.800 even just as from an abat right, it's kind of 10 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.759 interesting to at least for me maybe to hear much better. 11 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:37.719 I've gotten to this anyway on the episode. Thanks all right, Thomas, 12 00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:39.560 we're a lot Welcome to the Jay Burton Show. 13 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:42.200 Yeah, thank you man. So it's a pleasure. 14 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.119 Yeah, definitely. Man. I've been a big fan of your work. 15 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:47.719 I've found you, like most people, at least I think 16 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:52.880 through a and then later on Pequanona's Revisionism series, which 17 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.920 has been just great. But I really wanted to ask 18 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.600 you about something that I haven't heard you talk about before. 19 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:00.560 I've heard a lot of you people talk to you 20 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.679 about revisionism, and that's great, that's important, but I'll be 21 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:06.599 perfectly honest, I'm not I'm not knowledgeable to add any 22 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:10.000 more to that discussion, right, at least from my perspective, 23 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:12.920 right Like they're they're more qualified people than I do. 24 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.000 Want to talk with you about something that you've mentioned 25 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:20.120 but at least never discussed deliberately. It's kind of your 26 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:24.519 own faith and your own Protestant faith. So if you 27 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:26.760 could just very briefly, and I'm not looking for a 28 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:29.840 uh not looking for a all biography, but if you 29 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:33.200 could just kind of explain your relationship to faith and 30 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:36.159 where you and how you would, I guess currently describe yourself. 31 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.400 I mean, I'm I'm a Calvinist Presbyterian, and that's how 32 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:43.000 I was raised, both sides of my face. You know, 33 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:48.840 I've got rather deep Protestant. In tracing my genealogy, I would, 34 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.480 which I did some years back, I only found one 35 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:56.120 careful gastis in the last century and a half. In 36 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:00.799 most jurisdictions in the past, one is confessional heritage as 37 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.319 well as their race was UH was listed and for 38 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.879 purposes a census to which is interesting. In fact, UH, 39 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:12.199 I don't have an absolute I don't I don't have 40 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.520 a complete data set you know of the last you know, 41 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:17.919 two hundred years or something fantas States of America, and 42 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.280 it varied a lot by jurisdiction in terms of how 43 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:25.280 these procedures were managed and under what authority, but uh, 44 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:29.919 from what in my own research, it was uh saga 45 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:35.120 more common for confessional uh orientation to be listed than race, 46 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.199 which is interesting, but that that makes sense because I 47 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.479 mean old America that that was very very to people, 48 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:48.319 not just in their own lives, but in in political terms. 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:53.120 And I've always uh, I mean I I I'm I 50 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.560 remain you know, a Presbyterian today. I made the point 51 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:01.960 before uh, and the not like there's some idea original 52 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.800 to me or something or not idea. It's not like 53 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.919 there's some observation or like take that unique to me. 54 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:13.960 But people really can't escape their confessional heritage anyway. I 55 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.000 like Paul Strader, you know, the filmmaker a lot. You know, 56 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.759 like he wrote Taxi Driver, even though sports says he 57 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.520 directed it. Trader also made the film Hardcore, which with 58 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:28.479 Georgey Scott, which I think is kind of underrated. It's 59 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.080 a disturbing film and it's telling of a it's got 60 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:36.000 a very it's got a very UH strong theological. Trader 61 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.759 did the biopic of Buki Mishima lining board chapters. He 62 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.439 did a great UH film called The Yakuza, with of 63 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:45.840 which Ridley Scott's Black Rain is just kind of a 64 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.840 spiritual sequel or campaigning team. In any event, Trader was 65 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.000 a he was Trader was from Michigan, and and he 66 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.960 was raised in a stonily Calvinist's household. Riginally, Calvinism is 67 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:03.800 a faith in some and some among some people. Okay, uh, 68 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.199 kind of categorically as you're all right, at least by 69 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.360 kind of modern metrics, but some communities and some families 70 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.719 are are are rigid and kind of it's it's uh, 71 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.120 the structures in day to day affairs and particularly family 72 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:20.879 and Traders always making the point that you know, he 73 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.439 made two points that he uh when he went to 74 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.000 Los Angeles, UH to make films is a profound culture shock, 75 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:31.759 more so than it would have been, you know, obviously 76 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.240 for a Catholic or Secondly, UH, he made the point 77 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.480 that even people who declare themselves to be atheists or 78 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:40.839 declare themselves to have you know, left their the faith 79 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.000 of uh, of their of their family and parentage. You know, 80 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.079 you never really escape your confessional heritage. Okay. You know, 81 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.240 even these guys, uh, even these guys and and some 82 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.120 ladies who you know, will claim that, you know, they're 83 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:57.519 quote laughed Catholics or former Catholics. You know, when they 84 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.720 talk about their ethics like work as their addicts may 85 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.920 be their conceptual rise in Army's catholic you know, when 86 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:05.879 you when you find these like Rockefeller Republican types or 87 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:07.800 what he did, I mean they don't really exist for 88 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.319 but you know, these these kinds of uh, these kinds 89 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:13.560 of Rockefeller Republicans who oppose Nixon, and you know, we're 90 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:16.800 very much uh, we're very much conservative and name only 91 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:19.720 you know, in the seventies, you know, they they they 92 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.000 were very much they were sell the clari secular humanists, 93 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.439 a lot of them, but they they they were very 94 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:28.319 Protestant and orientation. Okay. Similarly on the right, you know, 95 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.360 you'll you know, you'll find thinkers like Anthony Woodevich, you 96 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:33.360 know who was a who is it? I mean, he 97 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.160 wasn't a he wasn't an atheist and in the way 98 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.519 that new atheists are or like uh any and certainly 99 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.639 wasn't a dialectical materialist. But he he was kind of 100 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.759 a proto fascist Nischean, but you know he was he 101 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.399 had he had this very very kind of Catholic, uh, 102 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:51.759 you know, Romanist like view of of ethicts, of aesthetics, 103 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.680 of of all these things. Okay, I'm at the point 104 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.480 before the Soviet Union as well as the you know, 105 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.639 as well as the as well as the countries under 106 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:06.360 U under occupation, that that that shared a subcultural traits 107 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:10.319 in common, you know, Uh, the Soviet Union came to 108 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:14.040 be more and more Byzantine and and superficially kind of Orthodox, 109 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:17.680 and it's in it's uh, in its practices, you know 110 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.160 from uh you know, the kind of preservation of Lenin's 111 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.879 body is a relic to the you know, the kind 112 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:27.480 of pagentry of the Kremlin mausoleum, the you know, these 113 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.240 these elaborate funerals of a state up ratric. So I 114 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.439 don't get me wrong, like I'm not saying something bad 115 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.600 about the Orthodox faith. And obviously what the Communists were 116 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:40.879 doing was a completely warped, uh counterfeit version of of 117 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.720 of of sacral practices, but it owed very much to 118 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:47.439 the kind of Byzantine Orthodox heritage. Okay, it was a 119 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:51.319 return to these familiar forms that however, like warped a capacity. 120 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:55.560 So it's important to give in mind, Okay, I so 121 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.720 to bring it back kind of down to earth, like 122 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:07.959 directly respond to your query. I never really questioned my 123 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.480 own faith. I mean, I I've asked a lot of 124 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:12.439 questions on my faith from the time I would do 125 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:15.959 confirmation to you know now with you know, it's about there, 126 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:18.199 forty six years old. But I never want to do 127 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:20.319 a faith or something where like I didn't believe in God, 128 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.600 or where like I rejected you know, Calvinism, or I 129 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.160 rejected the Bible or anything like that. So I've always 130 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:32.720 uh throughout my life. I I I've never had a 131 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:34.879 through crisis of faith, and I've never I've never been 132 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.720 inclined to abandon the faith of my father's as. But 133 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.680 also even if I want to do, I think like 134 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:44.759 a Calvinist, you know, and people have pointed it out 135 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.399 to me, but I knew it anyway, you know, So 136 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:52.560 and then that's just you know, I agree with you, 137 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:55.600 Michael Jones, Okay, with some qualifications. I mean, obviously he's 138 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.240 a big Catholic, but and I agree with them in 139 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:01.879 some senses. When he when he when he talks about 140 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:06.199 the kind of intellectual poverty and historically erroneous features of 141 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.439 white nationalism, but I think he takes it too far, 142 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.519 and in kind of doing race is not particularly significant 143 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:17.720 because politically it's it's it's got tremendousness, Okay. But at 144 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.680 the same time he is right when he talks about 145 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.519 how your culture really is your confessional heritage, you know, 146 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:26.800 and especially in America. You know, the way to understand 147 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.800 America is at elite levels. I mean, I'm not talking 148 00:08:29.879 --> 00:08:34.080 about like on the street pells kind of sociological experience, 149 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.000 you know, with what they were in races and things 150 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.360 and and and they're personal. So I'm talking about if 151 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:40.360 you want to understand kind of at the elite level, 152 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.080 like what what what what the kind of political intrigues involved, 153 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:46.559 and what what the parties are. You know, America is 154 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.519 more like Bosnia than it was South Africa or something. 155 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:53.480 It's it's basically a fight between you know, Catholics, Protestants 156 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.559 and Jews, and you know, there's kinds of shifting alliances 157 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.279 they're in, and you know, sometimes two gang up against 158 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:02.720 the other. Sometimes they're all like lowerheads. But that's that's 159 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.440 the way to understand it. And uh, that's why it's 160 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.960 peculiar when I run into guys you claim that they're 161 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:09.639 like atheists but they have some kind of like a 162 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.039 hard view on race, or they or they claim that 163 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:16.080 they're these big political partisans. It's like, you know, if 164 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:18.519 you don't if you don't have a confessional heritage, or 165 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.080 you don't take it seriously or I but it's not 166 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:23.639 like pretty identity. That's really kind of artificial. You know, 167 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:27.360 that's not just uh, I mean, and I mean the 168 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:30.399 historical experience bears that out. That's that's not just some 169 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.480 that's not just some uh, And that's not just some 170 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.320 conceit of mind. And maybe it's because I I'm a minor. 171 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.759 I'm an extreme minority where I live, and I always 172 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.559 have mans in Chicago. You know, we used to be 173 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.039 called like white ethnic white ethnics, you know, like Catholic 174 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.879 people and like old Stock Center prade like I am. 175 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.600 We're very different people. I mean, we're not We're not 176 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:54.320 different in the way like you know white folks and 177 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.120 black folks are. We're not different in a way like 178 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:59.200 a Christian a Moslim is. But yes, the idea that 179 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.799 this is some super official distinction is not true at all. Man. 180 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.240 There's very profound cultural differences, and thankfully, in a lot 181 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.600 of ways those have been kind of bridge and I 182 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.440 think you like people are great, you know, I I 183 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.559 it's not an issue with that at all. But this idea, 184 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.399 this is some sort of insignificant thing kind of people 185 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:23.039 to say that they're rather intellectually very immature or there 186 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.120 or they just don't really get not just you know, 187 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:30.399 kind of the nature of deep politics and historical terms 188 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:34.440 and specifically don't really get America and what it's kind 189 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:40.120 of it's kind of a ethno political like uh constellation 190 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:43.480 involves and like who the players are, so to speak, 191 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.720 and like what their values are and what they're trying 192 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.120 to do. I realize I want like far and beyond 193 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:52.600 you know, the question which is just like what's my faith? What? 194 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.679 How like how do I relate to what that's the 195 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.600 property characterizes? But you know, I've got I dedicated in 196 00:10:57.600 --> 00:10:59.919 my life. They're writing about political matters and and like 197 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:02.840 involving myself in these things as much as I can, 198 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.840 so I can't really expecate a kind of a kind 199 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:13.679 of historical and political orientation from my own confessional heritage, 200 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:15.159 because that's the way I understand it. 201 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.399 No, no, no, that's insightful. Yeah, I'm I'm glad to listen. 202 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.799 Yeah, I mean that's yeah, that's I mean. I don't 203 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:26.080 have anywhere to add on that account unless you've got 204 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:27.879 something you want me to clarify. 205 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.000 No, not at all. If you can forgive me a digression. 206 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.279 What you said about never being able to escape your 207 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.759 confessional history, it reminds me of a story my grandfather 208 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.799 told me. So, my grandfather was an aircraft mechanic in 209 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.440 Laos during the h Wild War, and as you can imagine, right, 210 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:47.360 there were a lot of a lot of Koreans there 211 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.919 and they had horrible problems with the Korean airplanes. It 212 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.960 would always go down. And one of the things that 213 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:57.559 they found out was essentially that the Korean language made 214 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:01.279 it incredibly difficult to bring an issue up the chain 215 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.399 of command. Right, So, like look orwell is is kind 216 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.559 of a goofy guy, but I think the way he 217 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:11.279 describes language and language control and his work is essential. Right. 218 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:13.600 And the point was, and what my grandfather always said 219 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.919 was until they taught the pilots English, they couldn't bring 220 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.759 up issues. It was just difficult in the structure of 221 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:23.360 the language itself to bring up to someone over top 222 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.519 of you, Hey, this is a problem. We need to 223 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:27.919 fix this, or to say no, we're not going to 224 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:30.039 do that. We need to fix the plane first. And 225 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:32.320 so I kind of view religion in a similar way 226 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.519 where it kind of it's the framework through which you 227 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:39.399 view authority, right, God being the ultimate authority, and so 228 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:41.679 the way that you relate to God, that you relate 229 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.759 to your priest class is shaped by your confessional history, 230 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.720 and that's an essential part of I guess how you 231 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.759 view politics and kind of I guess like the ruling 232 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:53.799 of men, right, No, it's. 233 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:56.080 Usually and it's also too well add I want you 234 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:57.960 to continue you And that's a great analogy, by the way, 235 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:01.519 and I had no idea about that aspect of the 236 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.600 Korean language. If I spent a lot of time around 237 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:07.159 Koreans owing to where I live, that there's a lot 238 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.240 of Koreans and in the reserves of cargo which people 239 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.559 might not know. But that's that's fascinating, and that's also 240 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:15.720 a very apropoe analogy. But I'll go back to you 241 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.440 in a second, but to your point, Yeah, you're absolutely 242 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:25.360 right that theology is basically the conceptual vocabulary of ah 243 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.639 of of of one's perception and their conceptual horizon. I 244 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.799 also add when Carl Schmid's great insights, of which there 245 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:38.080 were many, was in political existential terms, is that all 246 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.519 all political paradigms are conceptually theological. You know, you know, 247 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.600 if they claim, you know, like to again of both example, 248 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.639 the twentieth century, you know, Styalinus Garist states you have 249 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.360 the system in question purpose to be quote ethan you know, 250 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.440 liter it purports to be you know, eureligious or even 251 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:58.960 like anti religious it politics. Uh, it's exactly what you said. 252 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:04.159 It via the the you know, man's the conceptual horizon 253 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:11.759 as relates confessional heritage. It identically, politics is the lanis 254 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.960 through which man perceives authority, and it is it's always 255 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.879 negatively theological, even it's dressed up in secularists or or 256 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:23.919 you know, or modernist trappings, even it's purported to be 257 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:26.399 a science or something. Yeah, go ahead. 258 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.720 Well, and that's the thing that because I kind of 259 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.440 came into my own kind of at the tail end 260 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.879 of the new atheist movement, it never grabbed me, but 261 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:36.519 it was something that was kind of in the water. 262 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.519 And what was always so frustrating to me is that 263 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:42.720 there is this kind of attack on religion is, oh, 264 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.080 you can't justify it outside of his own system, right, 265 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.960 like justify it in my system. But that Karl Schmid 266 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:54.000 idea is essential, right, because any system of belief has 267 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.840 kind of a core just assertion about the world that 268 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.279 it's kind of all built on, you know, that kind 269 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.919 of political theology, no matter what it is. You know, 270 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.720 if it's if it's you know, kind of Dawkins atheism, 271 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:08.960 it's communism or anything, and you kind of just have 272 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.559 to make peace with the fact that you can't not 273 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.320 everything as a syllogism. You know, there is some kind 274 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.960 of initial premise on which everything is based. 275 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:21.080 You know. Well, so yeah, I mean in symbolic psychological terms. 276 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.720 I mean, even if the problem with the new atheism, 277 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.279 the problem with the new atheism specifically, and one of 278 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.440 the reasons why it's just kind of unceremoniously died and 279 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:33.919 now people are embarrassed about it is because it it 280 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:35.639 there's something I mean, first of all, it was something 281 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.879 nasty about it. It was it was just kind of bigoted, 282 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.919 you know, towards the towards a you know, towards religion, 283 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.720 choa religion, but it's also I mean it was, it was, 284 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:46.720 it's just on its own terms. I mean, like take 285 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:52.039 the example of Dawkins or or or another lightweight kind 286 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:58.639 of uh oh differous uh uh very literally character Chris Hitchins. 287 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.919 Uh the these guys were making more these guys are 288 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:06.879 making they were they were presenting absolute moral postulates, but 289 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.440 they weren't providing the the intellectual legs for these things 290 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:13.320 to stand on for really speaking, like you read Chris Hitchins, 291 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:15.840 you talk about how you know, racism is a great 292 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.440 evil whatever racism, you know, homophobia, which is an absurd term, 293 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.480 but you know, taking it to mean, you know, opposition 294 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.919 to sodomy and things, this is a great evil. But 295 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.559 you can't just like why It's like, okay, if you 296 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.240 really are an atheist, you know you can't you can't 297 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.879 fall back on natural law arguments to prop up your atheism. 298 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.679 Like maybe quote homophobia is bad. I don't like to 299 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:38.279 see how you can argue that it's bad. But like, 300 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.960 let's say, if you truly are an atheist, there'd be 301 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.399 no moral content to that judgment. You know, It's like 302 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:47.240 maybe it'd be like bad for business to discriminate against 303 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.840 people based on you know, these weird habits of theirs, 304 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.480 or maybe it's something that you know shouldn't be within 305 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.720 the contemplation of uh of of people as regards public 306 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.960 morals just generally, but like how how how can I 307 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.320 be some real great I'm gonna be a moral evil 308 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:05.960 to oppose something like that, you know. So there's that, 309 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:10.160 and it's also the uh, the uh. There's a basic misunderstanding, 310 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.119 Like if you read last summer, I powered my way 311 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.799 through a lot of Marxist Lenist theory. I mean not 312 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.920 just am a masochist or I wanted to be mean 313 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.079 to myself, as Telvin is often art, including myself, but 314 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:25.799 to a lot of what I was writing. I was 315 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:28.079 kind of deep diving, you know, into the Cold War. 316 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.880 I mean I always kind of am, but it was uh, 317 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:35.440 I was. I was specifically addressing, you know, kind of 318 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:39.880 the proverbial loss of faith and in Marxist Leninism that 319 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:44.160 they came to characterize, uh, the last phase of of 320 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.559 of Soviet power. And I was specifically I was kind 321 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.160 of deep diving into what replaced it. And to understand 322 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:53.599 one's got to understand that to understand the Russian feeder 323 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.440 age of twenty one two. But any event, Marx was 324 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.680 an incredibly destructive person. I'd go as far as even 325 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:06.640 and I'm reluctant to assign these kinds of moral judgments 326 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:11.599 to historical personages because it sounds like moral can't, But 327 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:13.519 I think I even go as far as to say 328 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:15.759 that Marx was an evil person who was intervolving in 329 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.720 scott okay and a naked and total capacity. But you know, 330 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.119 Marxist letting this atheism, it was fairly well thought out. 331 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.039 It wasn't this kind of dum dum uh histrionic, uh, 332 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:32.720 you know, bigoted, Uh moral can't of Dowkins and Hitchins, 333 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:35.079 you know, kind of like the marks within Marxist Uh, 334 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:40.640 there is a Marxian metaphysics, okay, and within that paradigm, 335 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:44.359 you know, the idea is that you know, uh, religion 336 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:50.000 as its religion as it existed within cycles of historical development, 337 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:53.359 you know, like everything else within me. It's conceptual horizon, 338 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:58.000 you know, reflected the paradigm of the production productive means, 339 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.160 labor and authority they're in because no matter what man does. 340 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.000 And then the Marxist paradigm he can't escape that. But 341 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:06.880 if you were to like ask a Marxist, you know, 342 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.440 like okay, like you know what what you know? What 343 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.319 what what? Like how how can we you know, can 344 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.079 we resolve you know, the kind of mystery of you know, 345 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.920 the original life? They probably say like no, something is 346 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.039 just beyond man's understanding. But that doesn't matter, because you know, 347 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:23.960 the challenge to us is you know, man's existence here 348 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.720 on Earth, and you know how to overcome this these 349 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.359 oppressive modalities and you know and advance the end of 350 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:31.640 history so that you know, uh, you know, so that 351 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.480 you know, real like true justice can be realized on earth. 352 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.160 You know, like they wouldn't like like no Marxists, you know, 353 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.000 in in either in eighteen eighty five or in nineteen 354 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.920 eighty five, what is sad to regaled you with some 355 00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.920 you know, with with with some with some shrieking moral 356 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:49.400 can't you know like dawk and style about how evil 357 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:51.400 it is that you believe in God? You know, like 358 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.720 this is not the way they approached it. There's something 359 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.599 that's remarked, there's something uniquely infantile and kind of uh 360 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:02.119 and and and characteristic of of the the kind of 361 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:08.480 post nineteen five you know, secular humanist regime. That that's 362 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.480 that's profoundly it's it's as anti intellectual as it is, 363 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.240 you know, sort of smugly, uh self assured of its 364 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:17.680 own righteousness, if that makes any sense, you know, I 365 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:19.480 no think the long lives. 366 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:23.319 What's it's odd that you bring up bring up Marx 367 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:27.400 and and Satan because one of my favorite favorite works 368 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:35.039 by interestingly enough a hardcore Calvinist, but is Milton's Paradise Lost. 369 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.200 It's it's it's no secret right that Satan is essentially 370 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:43.039 the main character and kind of that Promethean aspect of 371 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.240 you know, like I would rather, you know, rule in 372 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:49.279 hell than serve in heaven. It's actually something Marx was 373 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:53.799 kind of obsessed with, right, Yeah. He famously called Satan 374 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.160 the first free thinker, you know, and if you read 375 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.839 a lot of his poetry too, you get these very odd, 376 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.559 the dark descriptions of of you know, Satan and like 377 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.559 just essentially murdering truth and kind of like casting down 378 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.519 you know, kind of like the hierarchy of heaven. And 379 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.400 again like, look, I'm not the greatest Marxist scholar. I've read, 380 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.880 you know, I've read the Communist manifesto and a little 381 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:17.440 bit of lenin. You know, I'm not going to pretend 382 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.640 to be some academic on the subject, but in my exposure, right, 383 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:25.920 it does seem like he was very conscious of that motif. 384 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.839 Oh yeah, definitely definitely what's also too in the under 385 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:31.640 and I mean we can move on in a minute. 386 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.119 I just wanted to kind of for contact some some 387 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.319 in my mind the other day, you know, one of 388 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.119 the ways to understanding the new atheism. And I made 389 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.119 this I make this point a lot, and it's something 390 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.640 I'm writing currently. I don't want to be a shill, 391 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:50.240 but I my next science fiction book is dropping eminently, 392 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.799 but I'm working on an academic text that's about two 393 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.759 undred pages. It's kind of an introductory Uh. It's kind 394 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.920 of an introductory text, you know, just kind of dealing 395 00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:03.160 with the post nineteen forty five world. So and that's 396 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.240 keep understanding the twentieth century with hobbs Bomb. I mean, 397 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.279 while we're on the pific of merks, like I say, 398 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.960 Hobbs Bomb and some of his UH and some of 399 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:18.200 his uh, his heterodox uh takes on on on on 400 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:20.759 historical et box, you know, like he here in projected 401 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:22.319 kind of like the linear review of history. So he 402 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.079 was not this traditional Marsi in that regard. But Hobbs 403 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.839 was always talking about the quote short century, you know, 404 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:30.640 of the twentieth century with you know, entailing you know, 405 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.359 nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighty nine and that entire you know, 406 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.720 conflict cycle, dias in may. The thing I don the 407 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.960 twentieth century is that religion had takes this had taken 408 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.839 this tremendous hit, okay, and uh people just viewed you know, 409 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.680 from the common man to to people in authority, you know, 410 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:53.039 to to you know, the intelligency such that it still 411 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.440 could have been said to exist. You know, like people 412 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.279 just did there just was a basic absence of faith, 413 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.640 and they're this idea that you know, the the world 414 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:07.720 was explicable, you know, analysis of material quantities. You know 415 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:09.960 that that's one of the things why Marxism developed the 416 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:14.559 kind of momentum it did. And uh became so insinuated 417 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:19.039 in the in the political life, and and this it 418 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:23.359 became there was like this panumbric shadow over all discourse 419 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.480 and and political activity in the twentieth century. You know, 420 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:27.839 when people in the right you know, I made the 421 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.480 point before, you know, people they they talk about the 422 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:36.319 German Reich uh and its biological racialism as if this 423 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.920 was not as this was both you know, this horrible 424 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.759 evil but also this kind of this kind of strange 425 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.519 you know, uh, kind of like outlier phenomenon, like it 426 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:47.960 wasn't at all. I made the point before that every 427 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.880 advanced country, you know, whether it was the German Reich, 428 00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:54.279 or the British Empire, or the or the Japanese Empire, 429 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.599 you know, or France, like everybody viewed. You know, Man 430 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.640 is basically a biological machine, and you know culture is 431 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.759 derived from these biological principles. And you know, you know, 432 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:07.279 your race or your bloods in those days, obviously you 433 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.359 know that there wasn't an understanding the human genome in things. 434 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.759 You know, the idea that you know, blood, you know, 435 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.759 kind of not just determined you know people's uh, you know, 436 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.839 basic behavioral proclivities, but you know that that somehow, you know, 437 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.480 the capacity for culture and everything else was you know, 438 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:25.759 coded into your into your physical make up. You know, 439 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:28.680 this was this touching at this this this this conceptual 440 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:33.039 prejudice like touching concerned everything and one of the things 441 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:35.960 that brought down communism. I mean, it was an apocoal 442 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.039 phenomenon that brought down communism. Okay, it was all constellation 443 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:43.839 of factors and processes of history, but you know, the 444 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:48.039 kind of the kind of paradigm shift. A major poet 445 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.319 of the paradigm shift that brought it down was the 446 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:55.759 fact that people rejected that that people rejected you know, 447 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:00.359 not just dialectical materialism, but that entire you know, uh, 448 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.559 that entire materialist worldview that you know, came to view 449 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:08.640 everything is is grounded in physical phenomenon, you know, and 450 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:12.200 there really was a return to to uh, there really 451 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.720 was a return to the faith. You know, that's the there. 452 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.160 There really wasn't Islamic awakening and that that directly collided 453 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:21.319 with the Soviet Union, you know, not just in the 454 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:24.400 battle space in Aghanistan, but you know across its entire 455 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.960 you know, frontier and within within the all blasts where 456 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.119 you know, the the what what what the Kremline called 457 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:35.680 the nationality who were majority of Islamic resided. But also 458 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.839 you know, uh also I mean, you know, the Pope 459 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.759 John Paul was uh, the momentum that developed by solidarity 460 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.440 and elect balleensa like the you know, the the fact 461 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.960 that that was a Catholic social movement was instrumental when 462 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.039 it's uh and it's uh and it's in the momentum 463 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.960 it develops like orbon Is is you know, Orbon's roots 464 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.839 are are in the the the Communists, the anti communists 465 00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:03.720 was movement, you know. And he mad's the point that 466 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:08.519 you know, the uh, that that that the re emergent 467 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:12.519 to faith was instrumental when in Hungary and uh and 468 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.640 undermining uh the credibility of of the regime. And in 469 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:20.000 absolute terms, So these new atheist types, I mean not 470 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:22.359 not only were they not only they were they really 471 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.759 uh were they really weak uh in terms of their 472 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:29.839 intellectual foundations, but they you know, they were really kind 473 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:31.920 of this was this was kind of them trying to 474 00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.920 like return the serve when after after their their legs 475 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:36.920 have been cut off from underneath them, you know, and 476 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:39.880 they were thinking and that that you know, somehow they 477 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.559 could mount uh, they could they could mount some sort 478 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.519 of uh, they can mound some sort of comeback in 479 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.559 in in intellectual circles in the two thousands, and that's 480 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.480 what it was like dog and Dogs was fixated and 481 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:55.119 trying to piggyback, you know, his his his bigoted worldview 482 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.359 on you know, on science, you know, and uh and 483 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:01.160 Hitchins was had have what's finesse and a lot or 484 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.559 crass about it. You know, Hitchin's the whole thing, uh 485 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:09.240 like a typical like like a typical Trotskyist and you know, 486 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.559 like a typical uh like like a lot of like 487 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.319 a lot of Zionists do too. You know, he's suggesting that, 488 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:17.559 you know, this kind of laundry list of a boogeyman 489 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.480 of the post Marxist left is is the progeny of 490 00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.920 just religion. You know, whether it's you know, whether he 491 00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.960 was you know, calling for you know, genocidal assaults on 492 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.160 Moslem people's uh, without provocation, or whether he was whether 493 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.920 he was slandering Christians, you know, white Christians, or whether 494 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:35.160 he was uh, you know, saying horrible things with the 495 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.880 Catholic Church. You know, he he was very very cheap 496 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.359 and crass way, you know, trying to very direct that 497 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.720 that kind of bigoted hostility towards you know, religion, choir religion. 498 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.960 And it's it's very I mean it it's very very grotesque, 499 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.440 but also thankfully kind of beamed the failure and again 500 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:54.799 I hade me to ramble on that. But it's an 501 00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:55.519 important point. 502 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.319 No, no, not at all. It's it's odd to me too, 503 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:03.720 because not to just endlessly talk about myself, but I'm 504 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.799 in kind of the central Virginia area, in one of 505 00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.359 the capitals of the Bible belt, right, and so it's 506 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.920 odd to me because thank you. Yeah, it's it's odd 507 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:18.920 to me because there's this kind of boogeyman in the 508 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:24.960 atheist liberal psychology, right, and it's that this the like 509 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:29.720 classic old stock American Peckerwood is simultaneously this you know, 510 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:34.839 like seventy five IQ inbred moron, and then also this 511 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:38.960 like backwoods ubermench on who's secretly pulling all of the 512 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.720 strings in power, you know, and it's just one step 513 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.160 away from you know, plunging us into some type of 514 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:49.240 like you know, absurd you know, seventeenth century Puritan theocracy. 515 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:49.799 No. 516 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:54.960 Yeah, it's one of those just inherent contradictions. And my 517 00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.200 point is not, oh, look the left is a hypocrite, 518 00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:00.279 because that's not a particularly useful game, right, But it 519 00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.960 is one of those things that it does kind of 520 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.160 just bother you after a while. It's like, what, just 521 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.400 make up your mind? You know, am I dangerous? Or 522 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:08.559 am I pathetic, you know. 523 00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:11.680 But also it's just bad propaganda. Like there's there's two 524 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:13.680 things I wanted to note. I've people on the left. 525 00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.759 I've heard them, not not just like not just like 526 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.799 you know online herds, but like in you know, in 527 00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:23.359 the in the real world. I've heard I've heard people. 528 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.880 I've heard these crazy wolks I talk about, quote the 529 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:28.440 church and all that, Like what is the church? I 530 00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.759 go to a church, you know, it's like, what is this? 531 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.200 Do we live in sixteenth century Spain? Like what is 532 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.480 the church? I mean it's I think there's like a 533 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:40.240 I think among the I think when the rank and file, 534 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.359 it just kind of like you know, slob like kind 535 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.960 of trashy goy types. They really they really don't. There's 536 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.799 so there's so impoverised of culture and they were raised 537 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:52.519 with kind of nothing. But but you know, television and 538 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:54.640 and and and like convenienced or snacks. They really don't 539 00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.839 understand that. You know, there's this whole kind of denominational 540 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:03.240 aspect to Christianity and and and and the effect kind 541 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:07.119 of treating the modern world. But also, uh, I remember uh, 542 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.920 in the entire angle sphere, it's it's it's it's there's 543 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.519 that boogy man to your point, then it's it's it's 544 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:19.759 so odds with reality. It's like the most remote possible outcome. 545 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.319 Like there's this there's this really in the early few thousands. 546 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:23.759 I don't know if you remember this or not. I 547 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:25.200 don't know how old you are and I don't know, 548 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:28.680 but uh, there's this really moronic uh like Ellen Moore 549 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.319 comic in the movie called V for Vendetta and like 550 00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:34.519 all kinds of people like misic construed that movie like 551 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:36.359 it was it's it's it's just like it's it's like 552 00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.319 this huge, like Tommy woke movie. But then like these 553 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.839 anarchists and like types and these guys who think the 554 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.359 right wing we're running around a guy Fox masks imitation 555 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.440 of the main character, like apparently didn't understand that the 556 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.440 whole movie is it is basically like a commy like 557 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.599 woke movie, but in the movie it's dystopia. Is that 558 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.839 there's this like there's this Anglican there's this kind of 559 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.960 radical Anglican political party that imposes this kind of like 560 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:05.200 Handmaid's Tale Taliban typeergen on England, like based on Anglicanism. 561 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:08.559 Like that's like Dodds that happening. Are the odds of 562 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:12.640 like sentient dinosaurs re emerging or like dinosaurs re emerging 563 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.359 becoming sentient and taking over the planet tomorrow. Like there's literally, 564 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:20.960 of all possible occurrences, that is the least probable occurrence 565 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.000 that Anglicans are going to suddenly become right wing, suddenly 566 00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:29.759 become like this kind of like fundamentalist Taliban type. Uh, 567 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:33.119 you know, like like like theological tendency that they're gonna like, 568 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:35.839 you know, conquer England and like their first sort of 569 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.000 the day is like be mean to like middle class 570 00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.480 bougie ladies and like not let them get abortions. 571 00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:46.160 Like well, right, And it's to me, it's the difference 572 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.839 between I guess we can say the last like true 573 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.519 Protestant theocracy in the anglosphere, right, which is Cromwell, and 574 00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:57.400 then maybe the tradition. But if you if you look 575 00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:59.759 at those people and read about those people and what 576 00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:02.240 they were like, you know, say what you will about them. 577 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.119 They were misguided, they may have been wrong, you know, 578 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.759 it's a separate discussion, but these were these were fundamentally 579 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:11.839 serious people, right. Jonathan Bowden has a collection of essays. 580 00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:14.119 He didn't write it obviously it was post it was 581 00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:18.400 possimously published, but it's all it's called pulp Fascism, and 582 00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:20.720 it's kind of a series of essays and interviews off 583 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:25.240 of different you know, paulp characters. Okay, but uh he 584 00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.920 has one on it, is it Solomon Kane, the Roberty 585 00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:29.559 Howard Puritan witch Hunter. 586 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.799 Yeah, yeah, Solomon King Yeah. 587 00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:34.359 But he has a great essay on that. It's it's 588 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.480 it's fascinating, right, essentially talking about, you know, the American 589 00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:43.839 Protestant tradition and talking about in one large like extended part, 590 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.400 you know what it was like in Cromwell's armies, you know, 591 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.279 and there was there was no horring, there was no gambling, 592 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.119 there was no drinking. Like these were serious, hardcore people. 593 00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:55.680 And you look at and look like, I love these people, 594 00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:59.640 like Red State Christian Americans are my people. But they're 595 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.200 not like that. You know, they can barely control themselves 596 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.720 at a buffet let alone. 597 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:04.079 You know. 598 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:06.880 It's like hardcore charging into cannon fire. 599 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:07.279 You know. 600 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:08.839 It's it's a different class of people. 601 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.200 Oh yeah, and it's also the uh the that's what's 602 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.000 really Yeah, when America really started losing its way too, 603 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:18.839 that's what's That's one of the things that's weird about 604 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.279 That's one of the reasons why there have been a 605 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.960 handful of times I've ened up at these like quote 606 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.359 non denominational churches, you know, like quasi we don't really 607 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.519 have mega churches in Chicago Land, but you know that 608 00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:35.160 it's that same sort of thing. You know, There's been 609 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:38.359 a handful of times when like, you know, somebody it 610 00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:39.759 might have made a church for them and I didn't 611 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:41.279 want to be roots like I went. And one of 612 00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:44.240 the reasons why I can't cotton that kind of stuff 613 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.920 is because, uh, it's I mean, aside from the fact 614 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:49.799 that I think a lot of bad theology, you know, 615 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:52.880 it's not truly you know, it's not truly Bible Protestantism. 616 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:56.480 They're they're fixated on like mirroring popular culture. And I 617 00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:59.599 mean that's really really weird. You know. I guess there're 618 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.240 notion is that you know, the way the stay quote 619 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:05.920 you know relevant is is the mirror pop culture. But 620 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:09.039 that's that's really that. I mean, that's not just unsound, 621 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.280 uh in terms of uh, in terms of uh you know, 622 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:17.639 what what what God would have of uh the you know, 623 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:21.159 the elect in terms of their behavior and conduct and 624 00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.840 manner which they worship. But it's that's also not why 625 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:28.840 people gravitate to a church community, you know, the whole 626 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:34.119 you know, you gravitate towards the congregational community because you know, 627 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:38.920 we're we're mired in uh you know, we're surrounded by 628 00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:41.480 our enemies and we're mired in you know, gomora. You know, 629 00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:44.159 like I I I like going at church because it's 630 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:46.440 not it's not basically like you know, the kind of 631 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.760 clean version of you know of woke America like outside 632 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.119 the Doors or it's not you know, like they even 633 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:55.800 to this day. Like there's there's there's like a whole genre. 634 00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:58.239 There's like a whole sub genre like really really corny, 635 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:02.480 crappy kind of like fa like you know, pop country music, 636 00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.400 but with quote unquote Christian themes. There's like these like 637 00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.039 a hokey TV shows aimed at kids, which are just 638 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.760 you know, it's it's like he's disengaging megachurchers like stay 639 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.360 into Hollywood like oh we got that too, Like it's 640 00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:18.199 really really misguided and really really undignified and also just 641 00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:21.920 even in practical terms, that's not white people. That's not 642 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.679 why people, uh you know, become more become involved in 643 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:27.639 or become more involved in their faith. 644 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.159 Right, it's just becomes it's And there's a line from 645 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.000 uh from King of the Hill that I love about 646 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:38.440 Christian rock music and he says, you didn't make Christianity cooler, 647 00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.639 you just made rock music works, you know, which is 648 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:42.559 which is very true. 649 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:42.800 Right. 650 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.199 So my uh, my fiance's family is from the Chicago 651 00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:50.440 Land area. The descended from you know, Swedish immigrants. 652 00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:51.639 Yeah, it's interesting. 653 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.400 They went to right, right, they went to uh, they 654 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.119 went to you know, a small Swedish Covenant college. Everyone 655 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:02.119 was ethnically Swedish. Everyone went to church at a Swedish 656 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:07.199 Covenant church. But what's interesting is kind of post post 657 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:10.760 civil rights law, right, this community's got busted up. I'm 658 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:13.519 sure you're not. I'm sure you know. But what's happened 659 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:17.079 to the churches is as the churches kind of followed 660 00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:21.599 like NPR culture, right, and as they've kind of, I guess, 661 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.519 just rascinated the kind of you know tradition which was 662 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:28.119 fairly it was a hardcore tradition, right, Like it was 663 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:31.199 a Pietist tradition. You know, there were heard, there were standards, 664 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.800 it was very much like, well, you know, the community 665 00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:36.880 watches what you do. When that was gone, it's now 666 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.280 that like my my fiance is ninety something year old 667 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:43.320 grandparents are you know telling us that we need to 668 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:46.159 to get our government medication and how important it is 669 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:50.360 that we taken Somali refugees like they have right, you know, 670 00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.639 in telling us about the true the truth. 671 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:56.639 Also, yeah, I made that point. You know. It's like 672 00:36:56.679 --> 00:36:58.800 when people I made the point of a friend of 673 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:00.719 mine the other day. He thought it was being flippant, 674 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.280 but uh, you're talking about here talking about the church 675 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.199 in England and how disgusting it is that it's you know, 676 00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.599 it's it's basically communists, And I'm like, okay, but that 677 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:12.320 problem is gonna resolve itself because I'm like, you know, 678 00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:15.360 and and any church that goes woke, it's to your point, 679 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.639 it ends up with a congregation of two and both 680 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:20.760 of those and those two people are you know, ninety 681 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.880 eight year old women. You know. I mean like it's 682 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:26.280 if you're cat of laying the foundation, if you're on 683 00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:29.079 an extinction, you know, you know, if you're a quannabot 684 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:32.239 church who decides it's gonna be uh, it's it's gonna 685 00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:33.920 be an instrument to the of the regime. 686 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:34.559 You know. 687 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.280 It's like the Chinese, the Chicoms maintain what they call 688 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.559 the quote Catholic Church, but you basically go in there 689 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:42.800 and you know, you're you read like Mao's a little 690 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.519 Red book and you learn about how like you know, 691 00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:46.360 Mao like made a bunch of swans up here on 692 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.320 a mountain, and how like you know, Jesus was actually Chinese. 693 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.480 And you know, we don't really believe in miracles because 694 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:53.880 you know, we know that the cerner of the world 695 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:55.679 is China, you know. And it's like, but you want 696 00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.239 to know something like nobody goes to that church. You know. 697 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.320 It's like well, right, and like if and this is 698 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:05.360 one of the I kind of enjoy making fun of 699 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:07.880 because it's my area. It's the predominant domination. I think 700 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.239 Baptists are kind of funny, you know, and they're good people, 701 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.960 but they are amusing to a certain perspective, right, Like, look, 702 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:17.199 I I grew up in the kind of the stomping 703 00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.320 grounds of Jerry Folwell, so he's a funny person, right, 704 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:22.440 I can't deny that. But one of the things that 705 00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.760 I always give those type of people credit for is 706 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.480 that the amount of I guess the amount of support 707 00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:32.480 those people sent to you know, this really embattered Chinese 708 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:36.079 house churches is insane because there is a massive underground 709 00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.719 Christian community there. But it's much more similar to what 710 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:41.159 was going on in you know, Eastern Europe in the 711 00:38:41.159 --> 00:38:43.679 seventies and the sixties. You know. And look, I think 712 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:46.760 that Rod Dreer is a goofy guy. He's a nice guy. 713 00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:48.480 I met him in person, but he is kind of 714 00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:52.000 a goofy person. But his book Lived Not by Lies, 715 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.119 which is in Rod Dreer, you know, form a lot 716 00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.760 of it's kind of a waste of time, but he 717 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.400 goes through and talks to kind of the family of 718 00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:05.079 you know, iron Curtain Christian dissonance. And it's interesting what 719 00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:07.559 you said about, you know, these the kind of the 720 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:12.519 state churches dying, because all of these areas had state churches. 721 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.599 Oh yeah, they were party informants, right, what you said 722 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:18.159 in confession meant that the check has showed up and 723 00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.079 you got shot in the back of the head, and 724 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:22.280 so those churches died quickly. 725 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.000 Well yeah, and that's why what's the same thing too, 726 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:28.440 And I'm not making light of round the evil stuff. 727 00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:31.199 But like when all these when when all these freaks 728 00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:33.159 the last several months have been turning out, you know, 729 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.719 the protests and in fear of their quote unquote right 730 00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:38.599 to abortion, Like have you taken a look at these 731 00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:43.320 freaks lately? Like they're they're disgusting obese like pathetics said, 732 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.559 like figuratively and literally just like said, people with miserable 733 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:50.599 little lives who are basically demanding that the government valid 734 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:52.639 you know, the government is their god, you know, is 735 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.639 they're kind of like rabbinic uh, you know, counsel of 736 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.039 elders or whatever, and they're they're only moral authority in 737 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:02.360 their empowershal Lie, you know, I use determined moral and 738 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:06.000 you know we and it loves as possible terms, but 739 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:09.320 just conceptually in their mind, that's what it represents. But 740 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.800 these you know, if if evil people are gonna demand 741 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.679 the quote right to you know, kill their own children, 742 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:18.559 like what do I care? Like, Yeah, that's horrible and 743 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.239 that's depraved and that's sick that people think that way. 744 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:24.559 But if these people want to exterminate themselves, like why 745 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.280 why do I care? Like they're they're going to hell 746 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.000 and they're they're evil people, and I mean, they're they're 747 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.639 not gonna be missed on earth. I mean, I I don't. 748 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:34.880 I don't wish for anyone to die or want you know, 749 00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.800 or anything like that. But I the world, this world 750 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.840 is certainly a better place without them. I mean, I. 751 00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:43.880 Agree. 752 00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:46.559 Yeah, I'm not gonna stay and cry about these people 753 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:50.280 being like you know, degenerate freaks and want to exterminate themselves. 754 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.039 Like why do I care? You know, these aren't these 755 00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:56.199 aren't these aren't my people, and you shouldn't care about 756 00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:58.639 them like you should. You shouldn't celebrate you know, the 757 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.960 fact that you know that they're that that they're mired 758 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.039 and this kind of depravity and that they're miserable and 759 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.559 that they're doing evil of themselves and others. But I've 760 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:08.599 tried to make that point of people before again again, Like, 761 00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:12.639 people gotta stop thinking this. You live in this You 762 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:14.960 literally live in the Empire of the Moor, and you're 763 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.800 surrounded by You're surrounded by millions of people who are 764 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:23.039 just sick and are like literally like in hell, you know, 765 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.280 some such that such that all can exist, uh, and 766 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.280 in this plane of existence, you know, you gotta stop 767 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:35.519 thinking that that you you I mean in general cologal terms, 768 00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:37.840 like it's helped people like you got to stop thinking 769 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:41.199 about these people was like partisan community that you you 770 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.480 both particle of, Like these aren't your people, you know, 771 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:50.159 they're they're they're an unfortunate kind of obstacle to the 772 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:55.280 resolution of a of a of you know, the of 773 00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.679 of the the struggle of reason against unreason and and 774 00:41:58.679 --> 00:41:59.840 and evil and. 775 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:00.159 And are he. 776 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:03.519 And you know in a couple of generations will no 777 00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:06.639 longer exist, you know. Uh, that's the way you got 778 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.079 to look at it, you know, like why are people 779 00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.920 mostly invested? It's something like there's there's something like literally 780 00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:16.000 demented lady running around saying that you know, she she 781 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.360 wants children have sex changes. If there's some there's something 782 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:22.480 like pathetic fat guy with kool aid hair or screaming 783 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.320 that you know, he and some guy he masturbates with 784 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.840 their quote unquote and married. Like but these again, these 785 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.199 people are you should look at these people the way 786 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.920 you do like some homeless crackhead on the subway who's 787 00:42:32.920 --> 00:42:36.119 like screaming at people like do you are are you? 788 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.559 Are you really upset that because you'll get that guy's 789 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:40.840 like your brother or something and you know, you've you've 790 00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:43.039 got to bring him the reason. No, you're like that 791 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:46.320 poor man's afflicted. You know, I find it offensive that 792 00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:49.679 he's screaming obscenities at me, But you know, the sooner 793 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.079 he's kind of put out of his own misery, you 794 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.360 know by uh, or the sooner you know, becomes the 795 00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:58.119 reason and comes to price that the better, which are 796 00:42:58.159 --> 00:42:59.880 either way. But I the last thing I'm gonna do 797 00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:03.760 is sit around and and expend emotional energy on him 798 00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:06.199 or think about him, or like lament the fact that 799 00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:08.400 he's all fucked up because he has nothing to do 800 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:09.079 with Right. 801 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:12.360 It's interesting you mentioned that I guess the low caliber 802 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.679 of the opposition because this is something our mutual friend 803 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.079 Ace and I were discussing, right, which is that, Look, 804 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.880 say what you will about the Red Army and Lenin. 805 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:25.559 They were not good people, but they weren't embarrassing, you know. 806 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:30.360 They weren't these kind of profoundly dysfunctional you know, just 807 00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:33.639 like refuse. You know, they were dangerous people. They were 808 00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:37.079 serious people. Well, yeah, on one hand, it's comforting, right 809 00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:40.320 because look, the oppositions they're all morons. But on the 810 00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:42.840 other hand, you're like, well, wait a minute, everyone in 811 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:46.599 power is you know, a moron with you know, a 812 00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.039 laundry list of sexual hang ups, right, and. 813 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:56.119 And it's like, yeah, there's two different things. They're two different, 814 00:43:56.719 --> 00:44:00.159 I mean related because they were both aspects of the 815 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:04.599 historical process and and they you know, one is the 816 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:09.679 progeny of the other in some basic sense because the 817 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.400 the kind of constellation of historical causes of the one, 818 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:16.199 you know, resulted in the other, the other being what 819 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.960 we're dealing with today. It's your point, you know, the 820 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:22.119 threat of the Warsaw Pact, if you want to look 821 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.679 at it, if you want to look at the war's 822 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.760 up packed or the greater of two evils after the war, Okay, 823 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:29.320 I don't want to get into that's a whole other issue. 824 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.199 Don't want to get into it. That threat was had 825 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.639 Moscow and pay Kitting found some way to sustain their 826 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:39.760 their their strategic military concord, you know, at least the 827 00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:43.039 kind of limited interdependence and that kind of absolute cooperation 828 00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.400 on military strategic issues. The threat posed by a state 829 00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:48.920 like East Germany and the Soviet Union, and you know, 830 00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.400 the People's Republic at China when it was aligned within 831 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:57.119 that block, was like quite literally this kind of oriental 832 00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:01.679 tyranny of Stalinism will conquer the planet and a miracle 833 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.199 will basically become this kind of garrison state that you know, 834 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:08.719 this is essentially this kind of like an island like 835 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:11.800 in a planet that has been essentially bolshevi bized, as 836 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:16.719 to use the kind of antiquated term that was favored 837 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:20.039 in describing this potential future you know, by by people 838 00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:24.280 like by people like Hitler and Mussolini. That was the threat. Okay, 839 00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:28.199 the like like you know, post nineteen eighty nine, these 840 00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.960 these like these uh, these people were talking about, uh, 841 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:34.800 you know, the people who were the people who post 842 00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:37.320 like BLM signs of the people who merch in fever. 843 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.599 You know, they're in fantaside, right, like you know, the 844 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:43.880 the kind of creepy, sad guy who's like screaming that 845 00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.000 you know, you accept the fact that he and his 846 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:49.760 like male friend masterbat together. Like these people are not 847 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.960 remotely related to the phenomena I just described. What they 848 00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:56.199 are is they're this kind of natural slave cast that 849 00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:01.360 is the favored constituency of the victors of the Cold War. Okay, 850 00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:05.840 I mean that's what they are. They're they're not they're 851 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.000 not some physical threat to us. They're not gonna be mobilized. 852 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.159 I mean, I'm obviously being silly, but you know, they're 853 00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:13.119 not gonna be mobilized an outfit with clash and the 854 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:18.199 coughs to conquer our cities. They're the kind of they're 855 00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:21.920 they're they're the natural slave cast. That is kind of 856 00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:25.960 the if, if the if the regime had its way, 857 00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:30.000 that would basically be what the majority consisted of. You know, 858 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.840 that's kind of really like pathetic human material that's totally mailable. 859 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.039 Let's you know, functioning on kind of an animal level. 860 00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:40.360 I mean that you know that that that's not that's 861 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.159 not that's not just deracinated and you know, it's just 862 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:45.400 the people that that have a relations of the history 863 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:48.119 and and and have no existence outside of their discrete, 864 00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:52.199 isolated individual lives, you know, but that are also incapable 865 00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:56.079 of living historically, like that's what they would ideally want 866 00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.880 to breed. That's kind of the it's kind of the 867 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.320 gray majority, Okay, I mean, so yeah, those people. I 868 00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:06.920 don't think it's always the time to sit around cultivating 869 00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:09.519 bad feelings about people, even if they're disgusting, and even 870 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:12.800 if they're you know, entirely deserving a contempt. But that's 871 00:47:13.559 --> 00:47:16.320 you know, this idea that you know, like those the 872 00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:18.840 people we have to fight, or alternatively, like like those 873 00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:20.559 the people we've got to like you know, bring to 874 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:23.719 Christ figuratively you're literally or those against the people when 875 00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:26.480 need you know, like see from themselves, Like that's that's nonsense. 876 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:29.480 They're they're they're speed bump or they're like a pilot 877 00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:32.760 dog craft that you've got to step around or dispose of, 878 00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:34.960 you know, as you walk to or as you run, 879 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:36.840 you know, to catch your train in the city of 880 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.880 your thing. Like I I'm sure people are gonna say 881 00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:41.719 mean things about me and say you're gonna leave a 882 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:44.400 snow why you're so great? Look fuck you, I'm not 883 00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:48.760 so great. That's not the point, you know. The The 884 00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:51.719 point is that, by any metric, these people were talking 885 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:55.400 about are natural sleeves, like natural slaves do exist. This 886 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:58.000 isn't something aristyle is made up. This isn't something that 887 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.920 you know, self styled, you know, like herbs and watch 888 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.280 any movies you know, did declare people to be like they? 889 00:48:06.039 --> 00:48:09.480 They really do exist. And you don't believe me. I 890 00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:11.840 refer you to exhibit a and that is this population 891 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.559 I just described and you just describe. Okay, so they 892 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.320 know these people these people feature way too much and 893 00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:21.360 and and kind of the contemplation of people on our side. 894 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.639 I'm not trying to be some finger wagging jag Offer 895 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:27.239 suggest I'm kind of the conceptual dt or of what 896 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:29.880 people should focus on. What I think this is. I 897 00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:33.280 this isn't just my, This isn't just my, you know, 898 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:37.000 kind of eccentric take on something. It's it's it's it's 899 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:39.719 actually important, like funny and silly as we may be, 900 00:48:40.159 --> 00:48:41.800 you know, cracking wise about it. 901 00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:45.440 So I'm curious. Right. One of the one of the 902 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.480 common themes you hear on our side of things, right, 903 00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.480 is that whatever you want to call the thing, we're 904 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.400 up again, it's not what you describe, which is like 905 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.320 the kind of the London proletariat, but like the actual force, 906 00:48:57.960 --> 00:48:59.519 you know, if you want to call it, you know, 907 00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.239 progressive universalism, whatever, whatever that is the pause. But some 908 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:07.440 people say, like, oh, well, that's that's kind of a 909 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.599 Protestant Christian heresy, right, that that kind of took some 910 00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:15.360 of the premises of Protestantism and kind of corrupted it. 911 00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:17.559 Do you do you agree with that analysis. 912 00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:20.840 No, that's nonsense. And none of these people, none of 913 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:24.719 these people have read the Institutes to Christian Religion by Calvin. 914 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.480 None of these people have read Martin Luther. Martin Luther 915 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.440 is definitely I mean Martin Lutheranism is its own thing. 916 00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:33.079 I consider Lutheranism to be more I'm not putting shade 917 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:34.800 on it. I've got a lot of respect for them, 918 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:38.559 but I it's not the same thing as Bible Prostenism. 919 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:41.320 I look at luther is more in the in the 920 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.559 tradition of meister Eckert and the kind of German mystics 921 00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:48.079 than I do a than I do in the tradition 922 00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:51.360 of Bible Protestantism. Like people say that they're just that's 923 00:49:51.400 --> 00:49:53.559 like a lazy thing that a lot of a lot 924 00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:55.920 of people have glombed onto. It's gonna like get half 925 00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.679 understood part of it. Stead people like e Michael Jones, 926 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:00.559 and I got a lot of respect for Jonason. He's 927 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:03.119 a great guy and he's doing God's work. But like 928 00:50:03.159 --> 00:50:04.719 a lot of like a lot of like a lot 929 00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:08.360 of pious Catholics, he's got a prejudice against people like me, 930 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:11.559 not in personal terms, but he's got a prejudice against 931 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.519 against UH, against our faith and our dominational heritage. So 932 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:20.440 like people read that and they they they developed this 933 00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:22.920 kind of half digested like big get the idea, like, oh, 934 00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:26.039 that's them Protestants. They're they're they're like Jews, and they're 935 00:50:26.119 --> 00:50:29.360 doing all this stuff to us. It's it's it's fucking stupid. 936 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.000 And you know, it's like if I go, if I go, 937 00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:36.039 like I'm a Bible Protestant, that means that the Bible 938 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:38.559 is literally the word of God, and the Bible is 939 00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:42.960 from where we you know, derive, Uh, how how we 940 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:45.159 kind of know the mind of God? Like what in 941 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.519 the Bible says it's okay to be woke? You know, 942 00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:49.360 like how how does that work? You know It's like 943 00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:52.119 walk into some like Methodist concregation and there's some like 944 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.960 leady pastor there saying that, like you know, it's you 945 00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:57.280 know that like men should calle marry men. It's like, 946 00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:00.320 what's more likely that you know this lady, he's like 947 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:03.639 some some creepy free who you know is is is 948 00:51:03.719 --> 00:51:06.320 kind of doing the same UH is engaged in the 949 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.360 same kind of endeavor as you know, the the Chinese 950 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:12.199 Communist functionaries. You know, passing off MAO with Jesus. Is 951 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.119 it more likely she's doing that? Is it more likely 952 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:17.559 that you know, actually, protimism is about you know, turning 953 00:51:17.599 --> 00:51:20.320 people gay under you know, because we're secretly Jewish and 954 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.679 you know, even though like you don't see that, it's 955 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:24.840 just like what we do behind closed door or like 956 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.000 people the There's this also this idea that quote unquote 957 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:32.880 you know capitalism is a is uh is a Calvinist contrivance, 958 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:36.840 so that capitalism ruins everything, Like that's actually a comedy take. 959 00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:41.800 And this idea, you know, the relationship of Calvinism the 960 00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:46.639 you know, the idea is that you know, uh, they're 961 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.320 the uh like like work and productive work, uh, you 962 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:55.199 know being what is uh what you know what those 963 00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:57.840 who are you know, uh enjoy the grace in favor 964 00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:00.559 of God are inclined towards that. It's not some like 965 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.639 oppressor idea that's not like jew you know what's Jewish 966 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:09.119 is usury and uh. And there's there's few things, uh, 967 00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:11.880 there's there's there's a few things more literally anti Christ 968 00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:15.199 than usery. And what people are talking about when they 969 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:18.440 invoke the man of quote capitalism is they're talking about usury. 970 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:22.440 You know, to your point about the language being important 971 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:24.280 and people not being lazy with it, that's another that 972 00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:27.360 that's actual another perfect example, like I'm conzant coming down 973 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.199 not just on uh, you know, people that we talked 974 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:33.519 on conversational terms, but academics like Meerscheimer, who damn will 975 00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:36.039 know better. I'm consantly telling people to stop using the 976 00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:38.920 term coote democracy except in nineteen eighty nine is literally 977 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:43.119 a meaningless term. It's uh, it's it's a floating signifier 978 00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:46.599 that official that uses to mean literally good gualism. 979 00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:49.400 Well, right, and that's that's one of my favorite bold 980 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.840 got free insights, you know, is yeah, his book on fascism, 981 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:55.519 which he essentially has an essay where he says, look, 982 00:52:55.920 --> 00:52:58.960 if you if you substitute the word fascism for very 983 00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:02.880 bad and democracy for very good, yeah, it really means 984 00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:03.400 the same. 985 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:09.079 Thing exactly, double plus goodism. Okay. So similarly, capitalism, if 986 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:12.320 you go around saying capitalism when you really mean usury, uh, 987 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:16.920 you're not only is that kind of obnoxious, because frankly, 988 00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:20.400 that's what that's a half educated Marxists used to used 989 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.480 to do when you know, thirty five years ago, but 990 00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.320 it's also there's there's not you know, if you actually 991 00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.440 read scripture and if you actually understand that Christian faith, 992 00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:32.039 and if you actually understand Calvinism, you know there's not 993 00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.800 there's not something bad about money? Is that something dirty 994 00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:39.199 about wanting to profit from your labor? What the reason why, 995 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.079 the reason why usury is uh is a gross affront 996 00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:44.119 to God. If you have a usury doesn't anything to 997 00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.000 do with a labor, you know, it doesn't have to 998 00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:47.320 do with you know, where you bring the fruits of 999 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:49.320 labor is not to do with It has nothing to 1000 00:53:49.440 --> 00:53:52.480 do with profit, which can then be utilized for the 1001 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:57.440 common good or uh you know, or for a or 1002 00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.440 for the or for the or or for the benefit 1003 00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.159 of the labor. You know, like what usery is it's 1004 00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:05.599 quite literally trying to extract late profit from something sterile, 1005 00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:10.079 you know, which is money. You know, like essentially you know, 1006 00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.239 conning people to multiply money is is has nothing to 1007 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.480 do with work, has nothing to do with you know, 1008 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:18.920 it has nothing to do with uh, with justice in 1009 00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:21.400 social terms, you know, it's it has nothing to do 1010 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.519 with uh. It has nothing to do with you know, 1011 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:29.119 actual prosperity, and you know, providing sustenance to uh to 1012 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:33.360 the conreation. You know. So it's this idea, this idea 1013 00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.239 that on you know, that there's something that there's something 1014 00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:38.679 quote unquote Jewish, that there's something you know, like dirty, 1015 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:41.960 you're like un Christian about you know, uh, you know, 1016 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.800 an emphasis on uh on work ethic and and uh 1017 00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:48.679 and success. I mean that's that that's a loser mentality 1018 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.159 among other things. And and like I said, like none 1019 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:53.679 of these freaking people who go around claiming that like 1020 00:54:53.800 --> 00:54:56.280 my heritage is you know, Jewish or woke, like none 1021 00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:59.079 them can explain why. And it's like, you know, for 1022 00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:01.320 better or worse. And you know, like I want to 1023 00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.519 eat yours of Sunday School where and all you as 1024 00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:05.280 you know, all you do in Calvin is Sunday School 1025 00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.960 is read the Bible. Like I guarantee you that I 1026 00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:10.280 know more about the Bible. I know more about Scripture 1027 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.000 than some dude who like converted to Catholicism last year 1028 00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:15.480 has decided that I'm Jewish and I'm because like I 1029 00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:17.639 read the Bible instead of you know, wait. 1030 00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:20.960 Yeah, it's it's dumb, it's it's low IQ. It's interesting 1031 00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.519 that you you you bring up kind of. 1032 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:27.679 The yeah, yeah, I mean the point of people too, 1033 00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:29.960 like say making that point the same thing as it's 1034 00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:32.360 like saying that, like saying like, you know, and I've 1035 00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:35.559 also people see like well, Kellen is bullshit because it 1036 00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.239 means anybody can see the Bible means anything. I'm like, no, man, 1037 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:41.280 it doesn't, okay, Like the Bible actually doesn't mean something. 1038 00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.000 You know, the fact that like the had some crazy 1039 00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:47.559 Jewish guy or some crazy Marxists can claim like you know, oh, game, 1040 00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:50.199 rriage is fine, you know according to the Gospels. That's 1041 00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:52.559 like saying that, like, oh, actually, you know, you have 1042 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:54.760 a right to abortion according to the Fourth Amendment. You know, 1043 00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:56.679 it's not really about search and seizure and you know 1044 00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:59.400 privacy that a cruise you know in the in within 1045 00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:01.119 the in the in the body of the person and 1046 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:03.679 there and and their effects. It actually has to do 1047 00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:05.639 with you know, a woman's you know, pnumbric right, the 1048 00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:08.719 privacy which leads to abortions. Like the fact that people 1049 00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:13.360 are capable of saying things like they have they have 1050 00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:17.119 no you know, in rationalizing them under a under there's 1051 00:56:17.119 --> 00:56:20.199 a constitutional legitimacy or scriptual authority, like doesn't somehow mean 1052 00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:22.920 like intrinsics. The US Constitution is, you know, a right 1053 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:25.519 to abortion, so like we need the pope to you know, 1054 00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:28.920 interpret this force that doesn't happen Like that's ridiculous. I'm 1055 00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:31.599 not saying most Catolets think that way, because they don't. 1056 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:34.159 But yeah, the kind of the kind of basic bitches 1057 00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:36.320 who go on claiming that you know, Calvinists or you know, 1058 00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:38.760 wolf like that, that's that's that's literally like the kind 1059 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:40.800 of ship that they're proceeding on. 1060 00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:45.000 Well, it's it's a very it's a really basic intellectual 1061 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:49.159 mistake that you see everywhere, which is someone turned a 1062 00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:52.360 good thing into a bad thing, therefore the original thing 1063 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:55.199 is bad. It's stupid, right, Like you you could see 1064 00:56:55.239 --> 00:56:57.920 almost anything that has been corrupted and just by nature 1065 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:01.480 of being corrupted, you know, or a version existing rather 1066 00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:04.159 does not mean that the original thing was not good 1067 00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:05.280 to begin with. It's stupid. 1068 00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:07.920 Well, it's also if you really want to, if you 1069 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:12.280 want to deep dive into I'm a I'm a right Hegelian. Frankly, 1070 00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:15.760 so I don't. I don't approach things in these terms, 1071 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.679 But if you want to deep dive into into what 1072 00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:22.880 the kind of orientation of was of these Enlightenment progressive types, 1073 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:25.360 and they're talking about Bentham when you're talking about Thomas Jefferson. 1074 00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:27.519 But Frank was a Jacob and so it's crazy to 1075 00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:30.679 me all these white nationalists think they've loved Thomas Jefferson. Okay, 1076 00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:32.840 but it's uh, you know, if you want to know 1077 00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:35.000 what if if you want to know what these guys 1078 00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:36.960 were up with, like a lot of these Freemason types, 1079 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:38.880 if you want to know like what they were up on. 1080 00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:41.400 I mean, I'm saying like them in addition to the 1081 00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:44.800 people I just mentioned, Uh, they had really weird like 1082 00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:48.119 rosic Crucians. You know, they were big into that kind 1083 00:57:48.159 --> 00:57:52.000 of stuff. You know, they like Newton into like something Jones, 1084 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:55.079 Michael Jones deep dives into. There's like this really really 1085 00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:58.280 weird uh Like Newton was like he was fixated on 1086 00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.159 like rebutting a bunch of a bunch of Platonic and 1087 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:05.639 and and also Recitilian concepts. That's not just that, that's 1088 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:08.239 not just some kind of like weird uh like strausy 1089 00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.920 and conceited about you know, like Exegesus from you know, 1090 00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:14.599 Newton or something like that. Like he really wasn't dialogue 1091 00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:18.920 with with uh with uh with both the you know, 1092 00:58:18.960 --> 00:58:22.800 the Roman Church scholastics you know as well as uh, 1093 00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:25.079 you know as well as as well as well as 1094 00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:28.199 Plato and uh and Aristotle, you know, and trying to 1095 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:30.360 and trying to kind of like rebut you know, like 1096 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:34.000 the foundations of uh of of the Western cannon that 1097 00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:37.559 it preceded, uh, you know, the scientific revolution, which he 1098 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:40.280 considered himself to be a stride. You know, they said 1099 00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:43.800 these guys were not reliant, they weren't like reading scripture 1100 00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:47.519 and and and trying to tease out these kinds of 1101 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:53.079 destructive like radical uh radical premises you know, correctly or not, 1102 00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:56.000 you know, from the from the letter of of the Bible. 1103 00:58:56.119 --> 00:58:59.400 Like that's not that was not what their orientation was, 1104 00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:00.760 you know. I mean, like I said, I think that 1105 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.760 kind of stuffs overstated. Anyway, there's apocal forces that uh 1106 00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:08.719 that that gave rise to these these disruptions of a 1107 00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:13.559 political and social sociological nature. And uh, the non Jewish 1108 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:17.559 partisans of these ideas and values and the kind of 1109 00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:25.159 revolutionary sentiments they were basically animated by by historical perspectives 1110 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:30.920 that tended to profit them in their class. And some 1111 00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:33.519 of them were just taken in by Hubrists weren't particularly 1112 00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:37.679 committed to anything, and you know, they they they they 1113 00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:39.599 kind of wanted to insane with themselves as a new 1114 00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:43.280 priestly cast. And it's on common cause, frank me, more 1115 00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:46.519 often than not with Jews, because Jews were in the 1116 00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:50.400 odds with the ancient regime. Anyway, that's a better way 1117 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:53.639 to understand it. But even if your orientation is you know, 1118 00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:56.000 you want to look at kind of what the what, 1119 00:59:56.199 --> 00:59:58.679 what the get, what the source materials were or what, 1120 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:02.440 or kind of guiding velosities work of these people. You know, 1121 01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:05.760 like I said, you're you're not You're not talking about 1122 01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.639 You're not talking about Bible, progenism, you're not talking about 1123 01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.559 the King James Bible. You're not. That's now they were 1124 01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:15.400 relying upon. You know, it's it's it's really trimpha. It's 1125 01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:18.719 really weird stuff. You know, Like even even those concepts, 1126 01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:20.719 I mean, speaking again in a language, no concept of 1127 01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:23.800 the quote enlightenment is strange, you know, like like look 1128 01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.880 at how that's characterized like that, Like like the Middle Age. 1129 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.800 I don't like the linear you know, and I don't 1130 01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:31.719 like the linear paradise history of each of medieval modern 1131 01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.000 But you know, calling the evil period the quote Dark Ages, 1132 01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.880 and then suddenly you know there you know then but 1133 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:40.159 then abruptly, like the light of reason, you know, it's 1134 01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:42.719 cast upon the world, and and you know there's this 1135 01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:45.519 this this handful of of god like men, you know, 1136 01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:48.679 where it's words bearers. Like that's that's bizarre, and that's 1137 01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:52.400 that's ridiculous. I mean, that's that's not that's that's not 1138 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:54.480 a that's not a history develops. That's not an idea 1139 01:00:54.519 --> 01:00:55.679 is developed, well, right. 1140 01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:59.280 And it's it's interesting because it's there are certain ideas 1141 01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:03.400 that I've like people reiterate without realizing what they're affirming, 1142 01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.400 you know what, And that idea of the Enlightenment is 1143 01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:11.840 kind of a you're kind of reifying your enemy's premise 1144 01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:14.519 in a way. Right, But if you look at the 1145 01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:18.280 Middle Ages, right, like obviously, like especially post the clots 1146 01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:20.280 of the Roman Empire, there was to a certain extent 1147 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:23.440 a civilization will collapse, Right, that happened. I'm not going 1148 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.480 to deny that. But the idea that the next thousand 1149 01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:30.719 years were just horrible, grinding misery for everyone is absurd. Like, 1150 01:01:30.760 --> 01:01:33.559 don't get me wrong, Like I prefer to live in 1151 01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:37.639 my comfortable air conditioned department then you know, a mudshack 1152 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:41.199 in the middle of Saxony. But that said, like, we 1153 01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:45.800 are living in a dramatic deviation from the historical norm. 1154 01:01:46.119 --> 01:01:48.519 And realistically, for the most of the people living through 1155 01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:52.320 the Middle Ages, their standard of life was essentially the same, 1156 01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:55.039 in many cases better because I mean, if you're a 1157 01:01:55.719 --> 01:01:59.400 barbarian chieftain, you know, we're living under a barbarian chieftain 1158 01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:01.920 in the woods, you know, Upper Germany. All all of 1159 01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:03.920 a sudden you have a baron and all not all 1160 01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:05.679 of a sudden. You know, I'm being flippant, right, but 1161 01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:07.800 once you have a baron, your level of you know, 1162 01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:11.119 civilizational and organizational structure goes up dramatically. 1163 01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:13.320 Well, look at it like this too. Look at like 1164 01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:15.880 you know what's called the quote, you know, Dark Ages. 1165 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:19.280 To your point, that literally spans a thousand years. Okay, 1166 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:22.599 Like think about think about a thousand years prior to 1167 01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:27.039 this moment right now, like one thousand eight. What the 1168 01:02:27.159 --> 01:02:29.280 fuck does like one hundred you know, it's like eleven 1169 01:02:29.400 --> 01:02:32.920 hundred eed have in common with twenty twenty two. That 1170 01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:34.760 is totally insane to get here. This is part of 1171 01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:37.199 a common epoch, you know, it's like you're talking about 1172 01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:40.039 seven hundred a D and thirteen hundred a D like 1173 01:02:40.159 --> 01:02:43.360 where there's all these common features. You know, it was 1174 01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:45.880 part of the same kind of like political or historical 1175 01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:49.800 or sociological epoch like that's that's ridiculous. Like I realized 1176 01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:55.159 that there was the scientific revolution was a real thing, 1177 01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:57.400 that that's not some enlightenment myth. And I realized that 1178 01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.440 there was punctuated there was a punt. There's a punctuatey 1179 01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:04.920 of equilibrium to technological innovation. Okay that and Trumpeter made 1180 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:07.800 that point again and again, and you've got to understand 1181 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:11.239 that if you don't understand his entire paradigm of business cycles, 1182 01:03:11.239 --> 01:03:16.000 among other things. But so I realized that things, you know, uh, 1183 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:20.440 living NaN's condition is relationship to his environment, like leap 1184 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:26.159 fraud in ways that were not well precedented in the 1185 01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:29.440 last two hundred years. Yeah, two to three hundred years, Okay, 1186 01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:32.360 But at the same time, it's still absurd the claim 1187 01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:36.440 that you know, an eight hundred year an arbitrarily uh 1188 01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:41.159 uh kind of corralled like eight hundred year period of 1189 01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:45.159 time just just represented you know, some kind of like 1190 01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:47.360 you like to your point, you know, some some kind 1191 01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:50.320 of some kind of endless phase of grinding misery, you know. 1192 01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:53.320 And it's like I don't ask people before like what 1193 01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:56.400 what incredible thing? Like if you're if you if you 1194 01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:59.320 live in uh like if you went in Terry Hood, 1195 01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.119 Indiana and you're like some just kind of run of 1196 01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:04.440 the mill, like a lormo class guy who like works 1197 01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:06.840 at a Target or a Walmart. You know, he goes 1198 01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:08.880 someone and plays video games and stuff and like eats 1199 01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:11.639 bad food. Like what like like what awesome things is 1200 01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:12.159 he up on? 1201 01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:12.400 That? 1202 01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:15.920 Yeah? Like a peasant in fourteen hundred AD like Romania 1203 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:18.920 like wasn't up on Like I don't get it, you know. 1204 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:21.840 It's like, yeah, okay, this, I mean it's good. You 1205 01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:25.159 won't die in smallpox anymore, I guess, but you may 1206 01:04:25.199 --> 01:04:28.280 bee well like Odie on fentanyl. I'm not I'm not 1207 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:30.280 even a line of that, but right, right, but yeah, 1208 01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:33.000 you may have avellop diabetes and and have a shitty 1209 01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:35.159 you know, like kind of last phase of your life. 1210 01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:36.760 But like other other than some of these kuys of 1211 01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:40.760 diseases owing to poor sanitation at the macro level, like 1212 01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:44.000 what like like what what awesome stuff is? Like? Walmart? Man? 1213 01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:47.639 Like doing that like peasant man like wasn't doing I Like, 1214 01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:51.039 I honestly don't. I'm not just being flippant or or 1215 01:04:51.159 --> 01:04:54.880 maye a plentable point, like I honestly don't get it well. 1216 01:04:54.920 --> 01:04:56.760 And this goes back to your point about kind of 1217 01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:01.400 the natural natural slave cast. Yeah, he's a good friend 1218 01:05:01.480 --> 01:05:04.920 of mine, my mentor. He goes by George Bagby in 1219 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:07.840 these circles. He's a really interesting guy, part of the 1220 01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:11.280 reason I'm you know, here intellectually at all. But he 1221 01:05:11.400 --> 01:05:14.280 ended up getting doxed and fired for you know, being 1222 01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:17.679 connected to Abbeyville and a few other institutions on our 1223 01:05:17.719 --> 01:05:21.320 side of things. So my friends and I all, you know, 1224 01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:23.119 kind of banded together. We're going to help this guy out, 1225 01:05:23.159 --> 01:05:26.960 and we helped him move down to the middle of nowhere, Louisiana. 1226 01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:30.239 And when you go through the middle of nowhere Louisiana, 1227 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:32.639 this is not where he lives, but it's a town, 1228 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:34.480 you know, within a fifty mile radio so I'm not 1229 01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:38.440 dosing it. But there's this place called Donaldville, Louisiana, and 1230 01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:40.760 all of the all of the houses that are old 1231 01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:44.079 enough to have survived Katrina essentially have been there for 1232 01:05:44.119 --> 01:05:46.840 one hundred and fifty years. Right, it's how Louisiana works, 1233 01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:49.320 you know, if it's if it's if it's sturdy enough 1234 01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:51.960 to last one hurricane, it's can generally make most of them. 1235 01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:52.239 Yeah. 1236 01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:56.000 Yeah, but but you look at the descendants of sharecroppers, right, 1237 01:05:56.079 --> 01:06:00.639 who were essentially freed slaves. Yeah, and they're living in 1238 01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:04.440 worse conditions to the ones they would have been living, 1239 01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:09.039 you know, as essentially chattel. Right, the same it's the 1240 01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:13.199 same house hasn't been it hasn't been repaired, it's horribly maintained. 1241 01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:16.760 If it has power, it's only barely and off and on. Yeah, 1242 01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:18.400 And you're like, well, look like my point is not 1243 01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:21.519 you know, therefore I would volunteer to be first one 1244 01:06:21.559 --> 01:06:24.360 in line to slap my hands in irons. Right. But 1245 01:06:24.440 --> 01:06:26.639 you do look at it and you're like, well, maybe 1246 01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:29.039 the idea that what people really need is this kind 1247 01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:33.119 of like nebulous power to self define, you know, that oh, 1248 01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:35.840 we we're better now because we can choose our own 1249 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:38.760 you know, path through life. Like to me, that seems 1250 01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:41.320 to be very manifestly alive, you know, And. 1251 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:45.079 So it's particularly as citious. And I made this point before, 1252 01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:46.840 and this is kind of in my face every day 1253 01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:49.199 because like where I live and the demographics and some 1254 01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:51.599 of the things that are footier. I'm not making a 1255 01:06:51.719 --> 01:06:54.719 judgment about what I'm not sitting here. I'm not gonna 1256 01:06:55.039 --> 01:06:56.679 I'm not qualified about to say. But I think I'm 1257 01:06:56.679 --> 01:06:58.800 not saying that like the black race is some victim 1258 01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:02.119 cast or anything like that. But you know, the the 1259 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:05.639 regime has a credibility to claim to to devoke these 1260 01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:09.800 myths because it proceeded after the Civil Rights Revolution failed, 1261 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:13.880 or after after you know, turning uh, you know, turning turning, 1262 01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:18.360 you know ethnically you know, breaking up white uh, breaking 1263 01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:22.800 up uh, you know, ethnically cleansing uh, white parish communities, 1264 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:25.840 you know, by using blacks of their proxy warriors. After 1265 01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.400 after blacks no longer useful, the regime locked them all 1266 01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:30.760 in prison. I mean, so it's like, like I'm not 1267 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:33.079 saying that some conspiracy as blacks, but it's like you 1268 01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:35.559 can't claim it like blacks are better off in prison 1269 01:07:35.719 --> 01:07:39.719 than as slatens, you know, Like it's not so, I mean, 1270 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:42.000 it's like it's even more punctual. Yeah, your point is 1271 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:46.079 absolutely correct too. Like a lot of people in modernity, 1272 01:07:46.440 --> 01:07:49.599 their lives are not any better and arguably or worse 1273 01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:52.760 than that of you know, agreeing slaves. But like the 1274 01:07:52.840 --> 01:07:56.159 regime literally took these people where the descendants of those slaves, 1275 01:07:56.519 --> 01:07:59.559 you know, locked them in prison like literally and then 1276 01:07:59.639 --> 01:08:02.800 says like, yeah, slavery was the greatest human evil ever 1277 01:08:02.880 --> 01:08:05.800 to occur, and now these people are free, Like that's 1278 01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:08.480 that's literally at odds with the reality, you know, like 1279 01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:13.559 it's it's it'd be one thing if uh, if the 1280 01:08:13.599 --> 01:08:17.279 relations to a blash the regime was not pathologically dysfunctional 1281 01:08:18.159 --> 01:08:21.119 or if uh, you know, blacks were basically out of 1282 01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:23.720 sight and kind of like living like reservation Indians and 1283 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:26.199 you know, however, like this functional led me be but 1284 01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:28.840 you know, but the fact of the matter is it's 1285 01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:32.439 like literally what I said, and uh, I don't get 1286 01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:34.119 it's something like big discussion like what the cause of 1287 01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:35.720 that are And again I'm not I'm not saying as 1288 01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:39.119 some like conspiracy or quote racism, which is a meaningless 1289 01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:42.479 term anyway. But you can't. You can't. You can't. You 1290 01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:45.199 can't look at the population that you've you've locked in 1291 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:48.079 prison and claim that they're now better off because you know, 1292 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:51.520 their status as slaves has been abolished by constitutional amendments. 1293 01:08:51.880 --> 01:08:55.720 And plus it's folksing on slavery is a gross moral evil, 1294 01:08:55.840 --> 01:08:59.800 that's totally arbitrary. That makes some civilization five years and 1295 01:08:59.800 --> 01:09:03.720 the few future declaring that, you know, twentieth century France 1296 01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:06.520 was the most evil country ever. They had abortion on demand. 1297 01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:09.039 Like abortion, to me, it is terrible. But that's that's 1298 01:09:09.039 --> 01:09:11.520 an arbitrary, like singular thing to focus on. It's like 1299 01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:14.600 why is why is slavery the worst thing ever? Yeah, 1300 01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:15.920 they're like why, you know, I'm gonna explain. 1301 01:09:15.920 --> 01:09:18.880 It's a relative human constant. And look like you and 1302 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:22.760 I have a have a pretty deep understanding of human depravity. Right, 1303 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:25.680 just because people do it doesn't mean it's okay, Yeah, 1304 01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:27.680 but it is. It is an odd It is an 1305 01:09:27.720 --> 01:09:31.920 odd variable to choose to match the point of your society. 1306 01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:34.560 And the thing I always think about, right is like, look, 1307 01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:37.560 I'm not a medievalist, but if you look at the 1308 01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:42.600 amount of protections the medieval peasant had, you know, it's 1309 01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:44.720 kind of it's kind of absurd, right, the amount of 1310 01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:48.479 mandatory feast days, the amount of time essentially off they had, 1311 01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:51.239 you know, and you look at that, and not only 1312 01:09:51.319 --> 01:09:53.720 the fact that like well, you don't have to worry 1313 01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:55.960 about a job. You know, no, no lord is going 1314 01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.000 to kick you off your land. You know when that 1315 01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:00.479 doesn't mean that your life is perfect by any means, right, 1316 01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:02.439 Like it was a it was a harsh existence. But 1317 01:10:03.159 --> 01:10:06.640 this idea that you know, that this is the exact 1318 01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:11.000 perfect way to run to run a society is just absurd, 1319 01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:12.520 you know, No. 1320 01:10:12.640 --> 01:10:16.000 It's crazy. And it's also it's it's it's anti human 1321 01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:19.039 Like I I at the point of people, I mean, 1322 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:22.199 just one of these things about the like the COVID nonsense. 1323 01:10:22.239 --> 01:10:24.119 It was. I didn't think things about it, including that 1324 01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:26.520 it was you know this, I mean it was a 1325 01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:30.079 case of like totally bizarre mass hysteria over you know, 1326 01:10:30.239 --> 01:10:32.000 I mean, and and it is it was a fun 1327 01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:35.399 example of of of of of the regime you know, 1328 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.319 owing to it's it's you know, it's it's mouf owing 1329 01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:42.399 to its obsolescence. That's you know, since nineteen eighty since 1330 01:10:42.439 --> 01:10:45.640 you know, November nineth, nineteen eighty nine. You know, it's 1331 01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:48.720 it's constantly trying to confabulate some raison detra for it 1332 01:10:49.039 --> 01:10:52.079 for it's to continue to exist. But beside all of that, 1333 01:10:52.199 --> 01:10:55.359 I was, like I was fascinated that, like the kind 1334 01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:58.239 of the normies. It took that from the realize that 1335 01:10:58.319 --> 01:11:00.600 it doesn't make any sense from the like send their 1336 01:11:00.640 --> 01:11:03.199 kid to public school. It's like, so you're going to 1337 01:11:03.279 --> 01:11:05.000 force your kid to go to a building for eight 1338 01:11:05.079 --> 01:11:08.279 hours with these weird you know, like mediocre, kind of 1339 01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:10.520 troubled people who you find, you know, working as public 1340 01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.039 school teachers like have have like for them to do 1341 01:11:13.159 --> 01:11:17.199 math problems over and over? Why like what would that accomplish? 1342 01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:21.039 Like even I mean even like like even if even 1343 01:11:21.079 --> 01:11:23.560 if I accept the premise that like, you know, children 1344 01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:26.640 need some sort of some sort of training to do things, 1345 01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:28.840 which I don't think makes a lot of sense either frankly, 1346 01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.039 like just in general terms. But it's like, what was 1347 01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:35.920 that college by the idea that this is like something 1348 01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:38.920 that like that that's naturally like benefitial the children to 1349 01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:41.039 force them to sit in a room for eight hours 1350 01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:44.039 or in a series of rooms, like doing busy work 1351 01:11:44.119 --> 01:11:47.560 over and over, Like why what could then possibly accomplish? Well? 1352 01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:49.640 Right, And like you could at least see the argument 1353 01:11:49.800 --> 01:11:52.680 if well, we were you know, we had flying cars, 1354 01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:55.279 and you know, we were one step away from the travel, right, 1355 01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:57.680 Like if we lived in the Justins world. It's like, Okay, 1356 01:11:57.720 --> 01:12:00.279 well it's weird, but at least it's working. But I 1357 01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:04.239 think you have to be a truly singularly delusional person 1358 01:12:04.600 --> 01:12:07.359 to look at American public education say that seems to 1359 01:12:07.439 --> 01:12:08.720 be working perfectly right. 1360 01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:12.479 No, exactly, and it's like, uh, it's it's just like 1361 01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:14.560 it's just really strange. You know, it's just strange of 1362 01:12:14.640 --> 01:12:17.920 people can't put these things together and realize that, you know, 1363 01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.079 not only were a lot of these things pointless from inception, 1364 01:12:20.600 --> 01:12:23.600 but it's also the you know, America really is, Uh, 1365 01:12:24.359 --> 01:12:27.640 there's these obsolete You're surrounded by obsolescent structures, Like the 1366 01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:31.119 entire regime itself is obsolescents. Like that's what's interesting. Like 1367 01:12:31.239 --> 01:12:34.560 it I if you if you look at a regime 1368 01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:37.800 like Russia or like China or like Turkey, like those 1369 01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:40.880 regimes are all screwed up, and those aren't particularly nice 1370 01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:43.760 places to live, and there's like all kinds of corruption 1371 01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:46.800 to those systems. But they're they're they're actually like more 1372 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:49.279 kind of they were they more reflect the twenty first 1373 01:12:49.279 --> 01:12:51.439 century in a lot of ways than America does, like 1374 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:53.800 in terms of I'm not talking like culturally or something 1375 01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:57.399 here in terms of technological development, although America is very 1376 01:12:57.479 --> 01:12:59.760 much slipping in that regard to But what I mean 1377 01:12:59.880 --> 01:13:02.840 is it like America America is gonna for America's just 1378 01:13:02.880 --> 01:13:06.560 forever pretending it's the twentieth century, and and and and 1379 01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:09.159 these these institutions that are tailored to fight the Cold 1380 01:13:09.239 --> 01:13:12.840 War just must exist in perpetuity. Like do you realize that, 1381 01:13:12.960 --> 01:13:17.880 like America, America's largest quote NATO ally is Turkey, and 1382 01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:20.720 America is fighting a proxy shooting war against Turkey right 1383 01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:23.199 now while they say I'm claiming NATO exists. 1384 01:13:23.399 --> 01:13:26.600 Right, it's a it's a it's vestigial. Is too kind 1385 01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:27.000 of work? 1386 01:13:27.239 --> 01:13:30.079 Right? I mean, should should America attack itself? Because Turkey 1387 01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:32.520 is at work with America and it's obligated by the 1388 01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:35.640 NATO charter to like attack people, to attack Turkey? I mean, 1389 01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:41.039 you know, it's like the like you know, and people 1390 01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:43.880 think I The kind of pitfall of his Storian is 1391 01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:47.399 that he tends to he can develop tunnel vision about 1392 01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:50.199 the institutions as well as the epoch that is kind 1393 01:13:50.199 --> 01:13:53.800 of the subject of his focus. People periodically accuse me 1394 01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:56.560 of having Cold War on the brain. I don't think 1395 01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:59.000 I do. But even if I did. The point is 1396 01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:04.279 it's you know, national governments, aren't you know, modern state garments. 1397 01:14:04.520 --> 01:14:08.880 I'm talking post West failure state garments. They're not. They're 1398 01:14:08.920 --> 01:14:11.399 not capable of doing much, and they're not tailored to 1399 01:14:11.520 --> 01:14:14.239 do much. Like what they're there to do is basically 1400 01:14:14.359 --> 01:14:17.359 to wage war against other regimes that are structured like 1401 01:14:17.479 --> 01:14:20.199 they are. You know, it's not it's not this thing 1402 01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:23.239 that you know, it's tailored to you know, colonized space 1403 01:14:23.439 --> 01:14:26.479 and you know, make children smarter, and you know, to 1404 01:14:26.560 --> 01:14:28.840 help men and women get along better and you know, 1405 01:14:29.239 --> 01:14:32.159 like like we're like solve people's medical problems. And like 1406 01:14:32.239 --> 01:14:34.359 the fact that people would think it is is really 1407 01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:40.039 really strange. And as structured the US regime, which is basically, 1408 01:14:40.319 --> 01:14:43.479 you know that the New Deal regime, because that's that's 1409 01:14:43.479 --> 01:14:47.800 when this whole restructuring was was implemented. Okay, it's it's 1410 01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:51.239 it's everything about it is tailored to wage a major war. 1411 01:14:51.680 --> 01:14:55.960 And that's it. And after you know, after the after 1412 01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:59.840 the early fifties, it became structured very much to wage 1413 01:14:59.880 --> 01:15:02.439 it general nuclear war. And what we're doing right now 1414 01:15:02.800 --> 01:15:05.399 is on the talking on the internet, we're talking over 1415 01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:09.520 what was developed as a secondary commanding control mechanism that 1416 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:13.439 can survive after a first strike. That's why it exists, okay, 1417 01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:17.600 and that they can't be denied. Okay, Like it's not 1418 01:15:18.199 --> 01:15:21.960 it's not it's not me just you know, kind of uh, 1419 01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:26.239 but I'm getting old and cantankerous and inflexible in my 1420 01:15:26.319 --> 01:15:28.840 thought or something, just you know, kind of kind of 1421 01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:32.279 trying to pigeonhole all phenomenon that is under discussion into 1422 01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:34.359 this kind of paradigm that I I'm fixated on. 1423 01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:38.359 But no, no, that's that's insightful, man. And again I 1424 01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:40.560 don't want to keep you too long. You've you've already talked. 1425 01:15:41.359 --> 01:15:43.439 Open a matic is frankly, like, I gotta I don't 1426 01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:45.239 mean to sound like an old I don't mean to 1427 01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:47.279 sound like an old woman, but I don't know that pain. 1428 01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:49.159 I kind of got to let myself get out of 1429 01:15:49.199 --> 01:15:49.920 the seated position. 1430 01:15:50.079 --> 01:15:51.520 But yeah, well we'll sure thing. 1431 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:51.720 Man. 1432 01:15:52.119 --> 01:15:53.600 So if you could just get your plugs out of 1433 01:15:53.640 --> 01:15:54.560 the way and then I'll let you go. 1434 01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:57.279 Oh yeah, no, this was great and we can we 1435 01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.520 can do this again next week, but week after if 1436 01:16:01.560 --> 01:16:03.760 you want to, like, don't be noneadays to reach out 1437 01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:06.319 and you should join me in ace when we go 1438 01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:10.079 live sometime two. I mean, just don't be shy about 1439 01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:14.319 insinuating your solveny such things. You know, it's it wouldn't 1440 01:16:14.319 --> 01:16:16.079 be opportunity for you to be so. But yeah, you 1441 01:16:16.159 --> 01:16:20.079 can find I'm a my uh. I've got a science 1442 01:16:20.119 --> 01:16:24.319 fiction brand called steel Storm. The I published the Imperium Press, 1443 01:16:24.439 --> 01:16:26.920 which are great guys, and they're a great brand. You 1444 01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:30.680 should check out their entire catalog. But the sequel to 1445 01:16:30.760 --> 01:16:36.399 my first book, steel Storm, is dropping eminently. I behoove 1446 01:16:36.399 --> 01:16:39.039 you to buy it through Imperium Press because they're dear 1447 01:16:39.079 --> 01:16:41.359 friends of mine and friends of ours, you know, and 1448 01:16:41.800 --> 01:16:44.840 they're they're very much alignment our cause. You can find 1449 01:16:44.840 --> 01:16:47.640 me on a telegram. Telegram has been blowing up. We've 1450 01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:50.039 got a really great community there and it's a great 1451 01:16:50.079 --> 01:16:52.520 place to get you know, real news and and and 1452 01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:55.359 real kind of takes, not just on what's underway in 1453 01:16:55.439 --> 01:16:58.479 our circles, but you know, just generally there's this there's 1454 01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:01.000 if you can find me there at t dot ne 1455 01:17:01.039 --> 01:17:05.199 E slash the th h E number seven h m 1456 01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:08.279 A S seven seven seven. You can find me on gap. 1457 01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:10.760 I can know that against a gap, But I am 1458 01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:14.560 not super up on like that, you know, social media 1459 01:17:14.560 --> 01:17:19.000 and short form blogging, but gab is basically a mirror 1460 01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:22.119 of what I post on my substick and on Telegram. 1461 01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:26.119 You can find me there at Real Thomas seven seven seven. 1462 01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:29.560 You can find me on substack, which is on my podcast. 1463 01:17:29.640 --> 01:17:31.600 It is where my long form is. It's only five 1464 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:34.119 dollars a month to join. You can afford that unless 1465 01:17:34.119 --> 01:17:36.760 you're a hobo. I behoove, but about half the content 1466 01:17:36.800 --> 01:17:41.079 theorist only free. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot 1467 01:17:41.199 --> 01:17:44.640 substack dot com and that is how you can find me. 1468 01:17:44.960 --> 01:17:46.840 And don't odate to reach out on any of these 1469 01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:48.720 platforms if you want to talk to me direct. 1470 01:17:48.800 --> 01:17:51.760 I'm very brief, Thomas. Welcome back to the Jay Burden Show. 1471 01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:52.319 How are you doing? 1472 01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:56.159 Very good? Thank you man, I appreciate Uh, I'm a 1473 01:17:56.760 --> 01:17:59.520 I'm very I'm very blessed and honored. Did you invited 1474 01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:01.560 me back? Well? Thanks man. 1475 01:18:01.760 --> 01:18:05.279 I really enjoyed it a lot, likewile continuing my theme 1476 01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:08.399 of asking you the questions I feel like no one 1477 01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:10.960 else has right, like look, I'm not a historian, and 1478 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:13.359 I enjoy your work on you know, revisionist topics, but 1479 01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:15.800 there's only so much I can really add to that discussion. 1480 01:18:16.159 --> 01:18:17.760 But I want to talk with you about about the 1481 01:18:17.800 --> 01:18:20.159 other thing you're kind of notable for or known for 1482 01:18:20.239 --> 01:18:22.960 in these circles, which is, uh, which is your sci fi. 1483 01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:26.279 So if you could just give a general introduction to 1484 01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:29.520 steel Storm and kind of I guess if you could 1485 01:18:29.640 --> 01:18:32.000 like explain your relationship with science fiction. 1486 01:18:32.439 --> 01:18:36.199 Certainly steel Storm to me. I mean, I in order 1487 01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:40.479 to in order to explain what it's kind of it's 1488 01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:44.199 it's creative origins, I sort of, you know, got to 1489 01:18:44.279 --> 01:18:49.800 delve into what what what sci fi represents to me 1490 01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:51.840 and always represented, you know, I became what I became 1491 01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:54.920 old enough to perceive such things. Science fiction was very 1492 01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:58.560 much bound up with the twentieth century, Okay, Uh, I 1493 01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:00.920 mean there was still science fiction written the day. I mean, 1494 01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:05.199 I am a contemporary science fiction writer, but I I 1495 01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:10.600 I'm the framing device of of the the universe I 1496 01:19:10.720 --> 01:19:15.239 created is uh the twentieth century and specifically you know, 1497 01:19:15.359 --> 01:19:19.560 the uh, the strategic nuclear paradigm of the twentieth century. 1498 01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:24.239 And that's really what allowed science fiction to come into 1499 01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:27.279 its own as a genre, because there was a way 1500 01:19:27.359 --> 01:19:31.680 in which people could discuss, you know, UH questions of theology, 1501 01:19:32.319 --> 01:19:35.840 questions of ethics, particularly as related to war and peace questions. 1502 01:19:37.840 --> 01:19:41.079 You know, topics like artificial intelligence could. 1503 01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:41.960 Be explored. 1504 01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:46.720 When there were limited mediums wherein these things could be discussed. 1505 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:50.840 You know, it's a way uh people had an interest 1506 01:19:50.880 --> 01:19:54.239 in kind of speculative futurist topics as well as people 1507 01:19:54.279 --> 01:19:57.479 who had an interest in in uh in in deep 1508 01:19:57.640 --> 01:20:02.720 uh in deep theories of military science and and political theory. 1509 01:20:03.079 --> 01:20:05.920 You know, they could explore these ideas with the kind 1510 01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:10.039 of alibi that they were just writing stories. But also uh, 1511 01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:14.159 you know, aside from kind of uh you know, of 1512 01:20:14.319 --> 01:20:19.039 avoiding uh the wrath of the sensors, uh, figuratively and literally, 1513 01:20:19.720 --> 01:20:21.560 you know, the way to present ideas. You know, a 1514 01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:24.560 lot of a lot of a lot of intelligent lay people, 1515 01:20:25.239 --> 01:20:28.439 you know less so today, but you know, the this 1516 01:20:28.840 --> 01:20:32.319 tendency remains unfortunately that they're just not exposed, you know, 1517 01:20:32.439 --> 01:20:35.479 to a lot of a lot of complex theoretical ideas, 1518 01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:41.079 you know, particularly as relates particularly as relates to you know, 1519 01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:44.399 the power political questions, but also technology, you know, and 1520 01:20:44.520 --> 01:20:46.760 and where these where these things intersect, there really is 1521 01:20:46.840 --> 01:20:51.439 like a dearth of public discussion on on on these matters. 1522 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:56.319 Even when America had a more normal regime. Uh that 1523 01:20:57.239 --> 01:21:00.800 that that that kind of managed its its public uh theureocracy. 1524 01:21:01.840 --> 01:21:05.159 This kind of thing just wasn't really addressed and in 1525 01:21:05.239 --> 01:21:08.039 any more than the most kind of rudimentary and concrete terms. 1526 01:21:08.720 --> 01:21:11.880 So science fiction was a way of kind of educating 1527 01:21:12.239 --> 01:21:15.159 you know again like intelligent lay people, you know, people 1528 01:21:15.319 --> 01:21:18.960 capable of being educated about these kinds of topics. But 1529 01:21:19.079 --> 01:21:20.960 it also did so in a way that wasn't dry 1530 01:21:21.199 --> 01:21:23.960 and that you know was you know, it was presented 1531 01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.680 in narrative form, you know, and it also allowed to 1532 01:21:26.720 --> 01:21:31.840 write the indulgence of you know, exploring theoretical worlds you know, 1533 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:38.960 some completely phantasmagoric and metaphorical, some you know, quite quite 1534 01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:43.199 literally possible futures, you know, and that came to inform 1535 01:21:43.920 --> 01:21:47.239 that came to inform public policy debate. Man in intellectual circles, 1536 01:21:47.960 --> 01:21:52.840 you know, Jerry Purnell like the sci fi guys, and 1537 01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:54.800 they are mostly guys a lit. There are some ladies 1538 01:21:54.800 --> 01:21:57.399 who dig sci fi, but they are definitely the minority. 1539 01:21:58.119 --> 01:21:58.279 You know. 1540 01:21:59.039 --> 01:22:02.199 Jerry Parnell, Uh, the guys who are who are keen 1541 01:22:02.279 --> 01:22:06.359 to science fiction, uh you know know of him. He 1542 01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:09.520 passed away about ten years ago, I think. But Parnell's 1543 01:22:09.840 --> 01:22:12.960 kind of seminal book was Lucifer's Hammer, which is a 1544 01:22:13.039 --> 01:22:16.880 great work, a kind of survivalist post apocalyptic fiction, but 1545 01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:19.760 it's got, you know, a very positive kind of message 1546 01:22:19.800 --> 01:22:22.880 to it. I try and turn people onto that instead 1547 01:22:22.880 --> 01:22:26.760 of nonsense like The Walking Dead and things. Parnell also 1548 01:22:26.880 --> 01:22:30.159 did he The Mode in God's Eye with I can't 1549 01:22:30.199 --> 01:22:33.159 remember uh he co authored The Mote in God's Eye 1550 01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:37.520 with another kind of esteemed uh sci fi author of 1551 01:22:37.560 --> 01:22:40.560 the era. But any event, the the these books dealt 1552 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:43.159 with serious stuff, I mean know somewhere better than others. 1553 01:22:45.239 --> 01:22:50.840 But uh. Parnell went on to uh participate uh in 1554 01:22:51.239 --> 01:22:54.520 in these political action committees that uh that worked to 1555 01:22:55.319 --> 01:22:58.800 their work to win appropriations, you know, for strategic defensing. 1556 01:22:58.880 --> 01:23:03.560 This strategic defense initiative known colloquially and somewhat punitively as 1557 01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:06.479 star Wars. You know, the uh for the youngsters who 1558 01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:10.880 don't recall and for who might not even know strategic 1559 01:23:10.960 --> 01:23:16.319 defense initiative was was that proposed uh uh missile shield 1560 01:23:16.439 --> 01:23:21.760 quite literally, you know, it was under the UH operating 1561 01:23:21.800 --> 01:23:23.479 on the same principles as things like the Night like 1562 01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:27.600 the like the terrestrial earth bound nike Zeus anti missile 1563 01:23:27.640 --> 01:23:31.199 system or probably more familiar to people my agent all younger, 1564 01:23:31.239 --> 01:23:33.640 the Patriot missile system. But obviously this would be a 1565 01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:38.239 space based platform that uh, that would destroy incoming uh 1566 01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:42.239 strategic nuclear weapons before they were able to reach their target. 1567 01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:46.039 And uh obviously, you know what if something could of 1568 01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:48.800 this sort could be implemented, that would be a game changer. 1569 01:23:48.880 --> 01:23:51.640 I mean, it wouldn't totally obviate the nuclear threat presented 1570 01:23:51.680 --> 01:23:55.159 by the worst of uppact, but it would have it 1571 01:23:55.199 --> 01:23:57.920 would have U it would have all been guaranteed with 1572 01:23:58.560 --> 01:24:02.119 then extant technolology that you know, the United States could 1573 01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:05.199 survive a boat on the blue first strike, okay, and 1574 01:24:05.359 --> 01:24:07.600 and wage and win in nuclear war even after a 1575 01:24:07.680 --> 01:24:16.279 devastating surprise attack and uh aliens it seems today did 1576 01:24:16.359 --> 01:24:18.880 this This was the forefront of of of public policy 1577 01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:23.760 debate really, uh, you know, until the genuine thought set 1578 01:24:23.840 --> 01:24:29.920 in between the Moscow reformist regime led by Gorbia show 1579 01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:33.359 around nineteen eighty eight, you know, and then a year later, 1580 01:24:33.439 --> 01:24:37.880 obviously the you know, the the entire the entire structure 1581 01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:40.159 ceased to exist, you know, the Eastern Block structure but 1582 01:24:41.039 --> 01:24:45.079 point being Jerry Purnell. Might I I digress quite a bit, 1583 01:24:45.239 --> 01:24:47.840 but my point is that Jerry Parnell is a prime 1584 01:24:47.920 --> 01:24:50.399 example of a guy who literally was a science fiction 1585 01:24:50.520 --> 01:24:56.199 author you know who who who participated in in n 1586 01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:59.239 G O S and became the public face of h 1587 01:25:00.119 --> 01:25:06.319 of a proposed uh applied technology that that quite literally 1588 01:25:06.399 --> 01:25:11.239 had global implications for the strategic landscape. And and and 1589 01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.319 uh the kind of shorthand description of which you know 1590 01:25:15.479 --> 01:25:18.199 was on the lips of of of every news anchor 1591 01:25:18.279 --> 01:25:21.720 in in the eighty four UH presidential election. I mean 1592 01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:24.479 that's remarkable. So this is not just some you know 1593 01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:28.000 science fiction was not It was not just some kind 1594 01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:31.039 of weird like genre where you know of of you 1595 01:25:31.119 --> 01:25:33.600 know that appeals to guys who you know who kind 1596 01:25:33.600 --> 01:25:37.039 of enjoy thought experiments that don't impact the real world 1597 01:25:37.399 --> 01:25:40.640 in any meaningful way. So that's what kind of drew 1598 01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:43.600 me into it and interrupted me at any time, man 1599 01:25:43.640 --> 01:25:46.279 if I'm being boring or if I'm going too far 1600 01:25:46.319 --> 01:25:49.600 a feel, okay? And what turned me up? What turned 1601 01:25:49.680 --> 01:25:53.000 me onto science fiction? I never read a lot of fiction. 1602 01:25:53.319 --> 01:25:55.359 I mean I enjoyed stuff, and I still do, you know, 1603 01:25:55.479 --> 01:25:57.880 like Shakespeare obviously when I got turned into it turned 1604 01:25:57.920 --> 01:26:01.199 onto that in high school. You know, I'm a I'm 1605 01:26:01.239 --> 01:26:04.359 a Bible Protestant, So I mean I was always in 1606 01:26:04.479 --> 01:26:06.880 remain mood by the language of the King James. Bible 1607 01:26:07.800 --> 01:26:11.079 did a handful of literary works like Wuthering Heights that 1608 01:26:11.239 --> 01:26:14.720 really moved me. I mean I that that might inspire 1609 01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:17.359 people to make fun of me, because that seem I 1610 01:26:17.399 --> 01:26:18.920 might not seem that that kind of thing would appeal 1611 01:26:19.000 --> 01:26:22.000 to me, But I I am at base of romantic 1612 01:26:22.119 --> 01:26:25.319 person capital R. I mean, I don't mean I fancy 1613 01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:30.960 myself similar Thurio, obviously, but the you know, other than 1614 01:26:32.119 --> 01:26:34.039 the kinds of fiction that I read, uh, with the 1615 01:26:34.119 --> 01:26:37.680 exception of of of of a couple, uh, you know, 1616 01:26:37.920 --> 01:26:43.279 unorthodox classics like Goustive Hassards, the Short Timers, which became 1617 01:26:43.359 --> 01:26:46.000 a very loose adapt which was very loosely adapted into 1618 01:26:46.000 --> 01:26:49.000 the film Full Metal Jacket, and this this hard boiled 1619 01:26:49.239 --> 01:26:52.560 crime writer named Shane Stevens who wrote what I consider 1620 01:26:52.600 --> 01:26:55.000 to be the seminal kind of American crime novel about 1621 01:26:55.039 --> 01:26:57.680 the mafia called Dead City. It's sort of like the 1622 01:26:57.760 --> 01:27:00.880 anti Godfather. Like I talked about this in my podcasts 1623 01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:07.239 with what the kid is that city is. It's truly 1624 01:27:08.039 --> 01:27:10.119 it's truly gruesome. I mean it's it's like more of 1625 01:27:10.199 --> 01:27:12.159 a horror like you know, it was kind of it 1626 01:27:12.199 --> 01:27:14.159 was released around the same time as The Godfather, and 1627 01:27:14.199 --> 01:27:18.439 it's very much like an underground book and uh it's 1628 01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:21.239 it's a kind of book that actually appealed to guys 1629 01:27:21.359 --> 01:27:23.359 we're kind of like in that lifestyle, like in the era, 1630 01:27:23.479 --> 01:27:27.000 and it it's more it's more horror story then then 1631 01:27:27.079 --> 01:27:32.159 kind of a then kind of cheap, uh, paperback opera 1632 01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:36.119 like The Godfather was. And but other than that, you know, 1633 01:27:36.199 --> 01:27:39.720 the fiction I read was was sci fi because you know, 1634 01:27:39.840 --> 01:27:43.039 it grabbed me for the reasons I just indicated, you know, uh, 1635 01:27:43.960 --> 01:27:47.880 it it presented it. It presented world events in particularly 1636 01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:50.920 things relating to war and peace and historical processes in 1637 01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:53.560 a way that I could grasp, but also in a 1638 01:27:53.680 --> 01:27:57.960 narrative form that gave it context, you know, like and 1639 01:27:58.039 --> 01:28:01.840 I always tended towards you asked before we went to uh, 1640 01:28:02.600 --> 01:28:05.359 before he went live. Uh, he asked about my influences 1641 01:28:06.840 --> 01:28:09.199 Frank Herbert for it first and foremost. It goes without 1642 01:28:09.279 --> 01:28:13.159 saying not just Dune in the entire Dune Universe. But 1643 01:28:13.359 --> 01:28:15.039 a lot of his other a lot of his other 1644 01:28:15.159 --> 01:28:17.920 books that are lesser known, like The Santa Roga Barrier 1645 01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:21.039 is a great book. I highly recommend it, you know. 1646 01:28:21.079 --> 01:28:26.960 And Herbert Herbert. Herbert's a very unusual science fiction author 1647 01:28:27.039 --> 01:28:30.479 because it he's not properly hard science fiction, because he 1648 01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:34.960 doesn't deal with you know, the concrete theoretical technologies and 1649 01:28:35.079 --> 01:28:38.279 potentialities that they're in of of of uh, of the 1650 01:28:38.359 --> 01:28:41.800 imagined future. No, but nor is he soft sci fi. 1651 01:28:41.920 --> 01:28:45.520 He's not really dealing with fantastical beings and and things 1652 01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:47.640 like that and just you know, abstract symbolism. 1653 01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:48.760 You know. 1654 01:28:48.800 --> 01:28:51.760 He really, what he's really doing is he's writing about 1655 01:28:51.760 --> 01:28:55.079 He's writing about political theory. He's writing about race, you know, 1656 01:28:55.119 --> 01:29:00.239 he's writing about you know, religious and social infrastructure. Sure 1657 01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:04.920 that quite literally creates culture over time. He's talking about 1658 01:29:04.920 --> 01:29:07.680 man's relationship to these things well as an individual and 1659 01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:12.560 as a member of a racial or ethno sectarian or 1660 01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:16.279 cultural community, you know. And what he's doing so in 1661 01:29:16.359 --> 01:29:21.800 a fantastical setting far far removed from our present. But 1662 01:29:21.880 --> 01:29:24.000 that's part of the point, is that it's so far removed. 1663 01:29:24.239 --> 01:29:29.560 There's these familiar forms you know that cannot be escaped 1664 01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:31.159 from or done away. 1665 01:29:32.079 --> 01:29:35.079 It's interesting to bring this up because going back to 1666 01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:37.159 kind of the start of our conversation, right, and then 1667 01:29:37.239 --> 01:29:40.880 this might be reductive, but really the thing that makes 1668 01:29:41.600 --> 01:29:46.079 science fiction different from fiction generally, right, is the relationship 1669 01:29:46.159 --> 01:29:46.920 to technology. 1670 01:29:47.439 --> 01:29:47.520 Right. 1671 01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:51.319 The question is always kind of the question the conflict 1672 01:29:51.479 --> 01:29:54.159 is if not started by but it's kind of pushed 1673 01:29:54.159 --> 01:29:57.359 along by technology, kind of beyond our current state. It's 1674 01:29:57.359 --> 01:29:59.600 almost the definition of sci fi, right. And so in 1675 01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:02.359 the very early days, the very early sci fi, which 1676 01:30:02.359 --> 01:30:05.239 I don't particularly enjoy talking people like Wells. You know, 1677 01:30:05.319 --> 01:30:07.720 it's fun enough to read, but it's kind of a gimmick, right, 1678 01:30:07.880 --> 01:30:11.079 It's a normal story, you know, but we have an 1679 01:30:11.119 --> 01:30:13.880 invisible car or something like that. Like it's it's there, 1680 01:30:14.079 --> 01:30:15.640 you know, And it might be a fun enough read. 1681 01:30:15.720 --> 01:30:17.960 But I feel like the point at which sci fi 1682 01:30:18.039 --> 01:30:20.720 gets really interesting to me at least, right, is the 1683 01:30:20.760 --> 01:30:23.720 point at which we've essentially created technology that very much 1684 01:30:23.840 --> 01:30:28.319 can destroy us. You know, that full scale extinction of 1685 01:30:28.359 --> 01:30:32.000 the human race is beyond a theoretical possibility, right, Like, 1686 01:30:32.079 --> 01:30:35.039 it's something that you know, if the cards fall a 1687 01:30:35.119 --> 01:30:38.319 certain way, could happen and I think that's what at 1688 01:30:38.359 --> 01:30:41.920 that moment, kind of sci fi became not realer, but more, 1689 01:30:42.680 --> 01:30:44.680 I guess, a place where you could really answer real 1690 01:30:44.800 --> 01:30:48.199 questions of how I guess humans kind of deal and extremists. 1691 01:30:48.640 --> 01:30:52.119 And it's interesting you bring up Herbert because I don't 1692 01:30:52.159 --> 01:30:53.800 know if you could call me a sci fi fan, 1693 01:30:53.960 --> 01:30:55.760 but I like a lot of sci fi. Right. I 1694 01:30:55.840 --> 01:30:58.279 think that a lot of it is not particularly good, 1695 01:30:58.720 --> 01:31:01.800 but the highs are really good. They're really they're they're high. 1696 01:31:01.920 --> 01:31:04.439 As I guess it's somewhat redundant, but to me that 1697 01:31:04.560 --> 01:31:07.880 the core question is basically, how does the author view technology? 1698 01:31:08.399 --> 01:31:08.520 Right? 1699 01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:12.159 Is technology something that redeems human? Right, that change how 1700 01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:14.960 humans act and kind of elevates them, Which I think 1701 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:18.880 that's kind of unsatisfying and not particularly interesting. Versus well, 1702 01:31:19.000 --> 01:31:22.239 how to humans with kind of a constant nature, how 1703 01:31:22.279 --> 01:31:25.439 do they react when we've given them grand scale tool? 1704 01:31:25.720 --> 01:31:25.840 Right? 1705 01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:27.439 And that's part of the reason I like doing so 1706 01:31:27.600 --> 01:31:30.640 much and I like Frank Herbert so much. Is essentially right, Like, 1707 01:31:31.159 --> 01:31:34.000 obviously the technology is kind of beyond our comprehension, you know, 1708 01:31:34.079 --> 01:31:36.880 the ability to edit the human genome, you know, traveling 1709 01:31:36.960 --> 01:31:39.720 faster than light and all of that, but realistically, right, 1710 01:31:40.640 --> 01:31:42.680 the events are not too different from what we can 1711 01:31:42.720 --> 01:31:45.960 imagine is kind of a is kind of a you know, 1712 01:31:46.119 --> 01:31:49.840 behind the scenes like European royal drama. Right, there's intrigues, 1713 01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:52.439 there's royal houses, and so it's a very human story 1714 01:31:52.600 --> 01:31:55.199 kind of transposed over the starts. And I think that 1715 01:31:55.319 --> 01:31:59.000 that kind of I guess, like those perennial themes played 1716 01:31:59.039 --> 01:32:01.000 out to an extreme level, is what makes sci fi 1717 01:32:01.079 --> 01:32:02.560 interesting to me. Do you see what I'm kind of 1718 01:32:02.560 --> 01:32:03.279 grasping at there? 1719 01:32:03.680 --> 01:32:06.560 No, absolutely, And that's the yeah, I mean, the point 1720 01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:10.359 you make about a lot of science fiction, I mean, 1721 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:14.720 particularly the early iterations of it, but even now, it's 1722 01:32:14.840 --> 01:32:18.840 very gimmicky, and it just it's it's it showcases hypothetical 1723 01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:21.800 technologies as like set pieces or just as you know, 1724 01:32:23.159 --> 01:32:25.840 you know that the framing device takes the place of 1725 01:32:26.199 --> 01:32:31.520 of character driven uh narrative and uh yeah, that that 1726 01:32:31.720 --> 01:32:34.920 that that appeal. That's a very simple minded sort of, 1727 01:32:35.119 --> 01:32:39.279 uh sort of orientation, I mean, And and the part 1728 01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:40.800 of the people who write that kind of thing, I mean, 1729 01:32:41.640 --> 01:32:44.600 the issue with Dune is that it you know, and uh, 1730 01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:48.239 you know, like I said a minute ago, the reason 1731 01:32:48.359 --> 01:32:51.560 why science fiction belongs to the twentieth century, like whether 1732 01:32:51.640 --> 01:32:55.159 people accept kind of the the sociology of of the epoch. 1733 01:32:55.239 --> 01:32:58.279 You know, guys like Alvin Toffler and even Herman Khan, 1734 01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:00.439 you know who I mean, he wrote it was musically 1735 01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:04.359 on on on game theory and military dimensions of these things. 1736 01:33:04.439 --> 01:33:07.560 But you know, the uh, like future shock was a 1737 01:33:07.600 --> 01:33:11.640 very real thing in the twentieth century. And you know 1738 01:33:11.920 --> 01:33:15.000 in Midwinter Constant is saying, like history reputes itself. Actually 1739 01:33:15.079 --> 01:33:18.800 it doesn't. And uh, you know there's patterns within Uh, 1740 01:33:19.399 --> 01:33:23.079 there's there's the certain patterns the human behavior, particularly at scale. 1741 01:33:23.560 --> 01:33:26.479 So I mean just predict there's a certain predictability of outcomes, 1742 01:33:26.960 --> 01:33:28.840 you know when we're talking about state craft and we're 1743 01:33:28.880 --> 01:33:32.520 talking about political occurrences. But like history appslug does not 1744 01:33:32.640 --> 01:33:34.680 quote repeat itself, and if you think it does, there's 1745 01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:39.479 something of an idiots and you know, conceptualize the twentieth century. 1746 01:33:39.640 --> 01:33:42.880 I mean, you know in night at uh at the 1747 01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:46.239 turn of the twentieth century, Europe was still ruled by monarchs. 1748 01:33:47.840 --> 01:33:52.880 By mid century, there's a burgaining still nuclear standof up 1749 01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:56.680 between two superpowers, and uh, you know, jet air craft 1750 01:33:56.840 --> 01:33:59.279 was a common modality of travel. Like think about that, 1751 01:34:00.079 --> 01:34:02.800 you know, I mean, frankly, like fifty years is not 1752 01:34:02.840 --> 01:34:05.560 even a blink of an eye in historical time. And 1753 01:34:06.159 --> 01:34:11.079 for pretty much the last forty thousand years, you know, 1754 01:34:12.079 --> 01:34:15.920 not much change. For centuries. You know, there was punctuated innovasions, 1755 01:34:16.680 --> 01:34:21.600 you know, uh that that definitely changed things. But even that, 1756 01:34:21.800 --> 01:34:23.960 I mean it was punctuated in relative terms, you know, 1757 01:34:24.119 --> 01:34:26.800 like over the course of a century, you know, uh, 1758 01:34:28.039 --> 01:34:31.800 something like field artillery like emerged, you know, or you know, 1759 01:34:31.840 --> 01:34:35.720 the internal combustion engine you know, over decades kind of 1760 01:34:35.760 --> 01:34:39.840 became perfected, you know. But this truly, this truly punctuated 1761 01:34:39.920 --> 01:34:44.079 equilibrium I'm of like a radically game changing technology that 1762 01:34:44.199 --> 01:34:46.560 that's really alters everybody, not just their daiity life. But 1763 01:34:46.600 --> 01:34:49.319 they're not a conceptual horizon. Not not only did that 1764 01:34:49.399 --> 01:34:51.840 happen in the twentieth century, it happened over and over 1765 01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:55.680 and over again, you know. And well the. 1766 01:34:55.880 --> 01:34:58.159 Analogy I like to use, and that this has to 1767 01:34:58.239 --> 01:35:00.439 do with my background, right, is that we're essential living 1768 01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:04.399 in the most unparalleled stock market run in history, right 1769 01:35:04.760 --> 01:35:07.319 like kind of throughout it and obviously they're there are advancements, 1770 01:35:07.439 --> 01:35:10.119 right like iron tools that's a huge deal if you're 1771 01:35:10.159 --> 01:35:12.239 the only guy who has them. But from kind of 1772 01:35:12.319 --> 01:35:14.560 a thirty thousand foot view, the difference between an iron 1773 01:35:14.680 --> 01:35:18.960 sword when a bronze one, you know, that's not that significant, right, No, 1774 01:35:19.560 --> 01:35:21.840 But I mean you look at and a great example, 1775 01:35:21.920 --> 01:35:23.920 right is you look at the people who lived who 1776 01:35:24.039 --> 01:35:27.119 fought in wars in kind of the eighteen eighties and 1777 01:35:27.119 --> 01:35:30.720 eighteen nineties, and the absolute horror at which those people saw, 1778 01:35:31.239 --> 01:35:33.760 you know, even the First World War, right like the 1779 01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:37.560 beginning of truly mechanized warfare. And obviously there's another order 1780 01:35:37.640 --> 01:35:40.960 of magnitude change just what twenty twenty five years later. 1781 01:35:41.439 --> 01:35:43.079 And so I agree with your point, right that the 1782 01:35:43.600 --> 01:35:48.000 doubling and redoubling of technological change, I mean almost it's 1783 01:35:48.000 --> 01:35:51.479 almost impossible to dispute that that shifted society fundamentally. 1784 01:35:51.920 --> 01:35:55.239 Yeah, And it also one of the reasons why Herbert 1785 01:35:55.279 --> 01:35:57.439 is so important is because Herbert, I mean, he addressed 1786 01:35:57.439 --> 01:35:59.520 those things the very Onino's way. I mean, the entire 1787 01:36:00.119 --> 01:36:03.359 the entire framing device of Dune, like in situ, when 1788 01:36:03.439 --> 01:36:06.159 like we're introduced to the you know, the setting and 1789 01:36:06.239 --> 01:36:08.600 the and the characters of Dune. You know it ten 1790 01:36:08.680 --> 01:36:12.920 thousand years after uh, after after a jahad against like 1791 01:36:12.920 --> 01:36:16.119 a literal jahad against thinking machines, you know, and and 1792 01:36:16.239 --> 01:36:18.720 owing to the fact that you know, the the emergence 1793 01:36:18.760 --> 01:36:21.319 of thinking machines. Not only did it, you know, lead 1794 01:36:21.359 --> 01:36:25.680 to the physical enslavement of mankind ultimately, but even when 1795 01:36:25.760 --> 01:36:30.279 man had at least you know, nominal dominion over artificial intelligence, 1796 01:36:30.600 --> 01:36:34.119 it had the effect of just precluding the possibility of culture. 1797 01:36:34.479 --> 01:36:37.840 You know it, you surfed and sabotaged you know, man's 1798 01:36:37.960 --> 01:36:40.600 entire concept of value. You know it is aesthetic judgment, 1799 01:36:40.680 --> 01:36:43.239 his ability to discern beauty any longer. You know, it 1800 01:36:43.319 --> 01:36:48.680 created a truly like pointless existence. And Herbert owes a lot. 1801 01:36:48.840 --> 01:36:51.800 I believed the Heidegger, even though he probably would have 1802 01:36:51.880 --> 01:36:54.000 denied it because he was very kind of canny and 1803 01:36:54.439 --> 01:36:58.079 elusive when people try to pin down his own influences. 1804 01:36:58.199 --> 01:37:00.720 But you discerned a lot. You just you're decerted, and 1805 01:37:00.960 --> 01:37:04.399 and and in Herbert, everything from meister Eckert, you know, 1806 01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:09.680 to to uh you know, the esoteric Islamic thinkers, you know, 1807 01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:13.640 to to what I believe, or Zen Buddhist influency, although 1808 01:37:13.640 --> 01:37:15.760 I don't know anything about Zen Buddhism other than the 1809 01:37:15.880 --> 01:37:19.960 very you know, uh, very kind of cursory understanding of 1810 01:37:20.000 --> 01:37:24.880 its its core concepts. But you know, Heidegger's I mean 1811 01:37:24.960 --> 01:37:28.680 it be in political terms if you know, uh, what 1812 01:37:28.880 --> 01:37:30.960 what what kind of brings what kind of what kind 1813 01:37:31.000 --> 01:37:34.279 of draws a Heidegger into the into the political sphere 1814 01:37:34.279 --> 01:37:39.279 of human activity is his description of what it is 1815 01:37:39.399 --> 01:37:44.840 to live historically? Okay, And Nolty, Ernst Nolty, who was 1816 01:37:44.880 --> 01:37:47.279 his accolyte, and you know was was the great historian 1817 01:37:48.680 --> 01:37:52.680 and a very controversial revisionist. But I mean Nolty really 1818 01:37:53.600 --> 01:37:57.319 really kind of uh took uh this kind of Heidigerian 1819 01:37:57.399 --> 01:38:02.520 paradigm of his of you know, of what it is 1820 01:38:02.600 --> 01:38:07.439 to live historically to its logical conclusion and conceptual terms. 1821 01:38:08.079 --> 01:38:11.039 And you know, the only the only thing that really 1822 01:38:11.119 --> 01:38:15.159 mitigates the the the the terror of oblivion and death 1823 01:38:15.920 --> 01:38:19.079 is uh and the only thing that really makes you know, uh, 1824 01:38:19.720 --> 01:38:23.800 intimacy between people possible in life is you know, the 1825 01:38:23.920 --> 01:38:29.199 capacity to live historically and uh, you know, new ageas 1826 01:38:29.199 --> 01:38:33.520 as might sound, the people who aren't really unpacking the 1827 01:38:33.640 --> 01:38:39.239 meaning of these terms, a people uh who come to 1828 01:38:39.279 --> 01:38:42.159 share a consciousness in common, you know, wanting to I 1829 01:38:42.279 --> 01:38:47.359 share biology, which is only one component of a historically 1830 01:38:47.439 --> 01:38:51.439 communitarian experience. But over time, you know, a community of 1831 01:38:51.479 --> 01:38:56.039 people becomes a truly perennial community and a very real way, uh, 1832 01:38:56.960 --> 01:39:00.279 they they partake of a consciousness that that trans sense 1833 01:39:00.359 --> 01:39:03.279 the death of individual members, like I mean quite literally 1834 01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:06.479 in terms of you know, the transmission of common modalities 1835 01:39:06.520 --> 01:39:12.560 of thought, Okay, in concepts and uh, symbolic psychological features 1836 01:39:12.640 --> 01:39:14.479 and things of this nature. I'm not talking about anything 1837 01:39:14.560 --> 01:39:18.279 aerie or mystical or like about spirits ra aining of 1838 01:39:18.319 --> 01:39:23.880 that nature, okay. And Herbert was very very uh fixated 1839 01:39:23.920 --> 01:39:25.399 on this, I mean as am I. That's one of 1840 01:39:25.399 --> 01:39:29.039 the things that dream into Herbert. And the converse of that, 1841 01:39:29.960 --> 01:39:34.039 uh is that if if you remove people individually and 1842 01:39:35.720 --> 01:39:41.159 collectively from historical existence, you know, by by preventing the 1843 01:39:41.319 --> 01:39:45.199 development or this maintenance of that you know, linear uh 1844 01:39:46.079 --> 01:39:51.920 uh consciousness and experience of being held in common over generations, 1845 01:39:52.119 --> 01:39:55.079 you're you're you're in a real, very real way, like 1846 01:39:55.239 --> 01:39:59.840 murdering an entire world of consciousness for all time. And 1847 01:40:00.000 --> 01:40:04.560 and if you want to understand why people fight so 1848 01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:08.119 hard to preserve their way of life or their way 1849 01:40:08.159 --> 01:40:12.800 of being in more properly descriptive terms, that is why. 1850 01:40:13.479 --> 01:40:16.760 And I'm not saying the common man who is mired 1851 01:40:16.800 --> 01:40:20.159 in these circumstances and fighting to preserve, you know, his 1852 01:40:20.520 --> 01:40:25.039 his way of being in existential terms, contemplates it this 1853 01:40:25.199 --> 01:40:29.079 way or could even articulate this way, but instinctively he 1854 01:40:29.199 --> 01:40:31.800 recognizes that is what it is, that that is what 1855 01:40:32.079 --> 01:40:37.159 is at stake. And this is also why, although it's 1856 01:40:37.159 --> 01:40:41.640 an uncomfortable topic, if people want to understand what happened 1857 01:40:41.640 --> 01:40:48.039 in the twentieth century involving the categorical annihilation of entire populations, 1858 01:40:48.520 --> 01:40:54.920 which was first devised and implemented by the Communists, escalated 1859 01:40:54.960 --> 01:41:00.479 and and sort of returned in kind as a is 1860 01:41:00.560 --> 01:41:04.560 a modality of political violence by the German Reich, and 1861 01:41:04.600 --> 01:41:09.039 then ultimately the normalization of it in uh, the planned 1862 01:41:09.079 --> 01:41:14.199 waging of strategic nuclear warfare where the attrition tipping point was, uh, 1863 01:41:14.920 --> 01:41:19.720 what volume of of of of of mortal attrition would 1864 01:41:19.760 --> 01:41:22.760 cause it too, the literal death of of the enemy society. 1865 01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:26.920 I realize, Uh, I just threw a lot at you. 1866 01:41:28.079 --> 01:41:29.880 Could you excuse me for like two minutes, I've got 1867 01:41:29.960 --> 01:41:32.560 to go pop a couple of ani inflammatories rank lament 1868 01:41:32.560 --> 01:41:33.159 a little bit of pain. 1869 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:35.560 No, not at all, Thomas h yeah, I'll be right back. 1870 01:41:35.880 --> 01:41:37.560 Yeah, forgive me man, sure. 1871 01:41:37.439 --> 01:41:40.600 Thing, So I'll fill up air while Thomas is out 1872 01:41:41.079 --> 01:41:44.159 to me. This it reminds me of and if you've 1873 01:41:44.159 --> 01:41:46.960 ever read and I know, scholar, right, if ever read 1874 01:41:47.479 --> 01:41:52.239 both the Old Testament and anything about kind of Mesopotamian civilizations, 1875 01:41:52.479 --> 01:41:54.880 right like if you go to the you know, the 1876 01:41:54.920 --> 01:41:57.479 British Museum or even just read the scans that it's 1877 01:41:57.560 --> 01:42:00.640 it's you noticed this that this like language of annihilation, 1878 01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:04.600 right like we we we struck them all down, you know, 1879 01:42:04.680 --> 01:42:06.840 we dashed out the brains of their infants. We we 1880 01:42:07.000 --> 01:42:10.640 left not one stone standing, and none of them were left. 1881 01:42:11.159 --> 01:42:13.640 And then three years later they're fighting again, right, And 1882 01:42:13.720 --> 01:42:16.199 then that's to a certain extent a literary device, right 1883 01:42:16.399 --> 01:42:20.239 like they was certainly a crushing victory, but it should 1884 01:42:20.279 --> 01:42:22.640 be read as you know, like oh yeah, how the 1885 01:42:22.680 --> 01:42:25.880 football game go oh pretty rough? We got slaughtered. You know, 1886 01:42:25.960 --> 01:42:29.840 obviously they didn't actually you know, make a pyramid of 1887 01:42:29.880 --> 01:42:33.239 skulls a fifty yard line, right, but that that real 1888 01:42:33.359 --> 01:42:37.039 capacity for human exter extermination. And look I understand, right, 1889 01:42:37.600 --> 01:42:41.000 like Caesar Wage to genocide. You know, the Mongolians killed 1890 01:42:41.039 --> 01:42:45.039 a lot of people. Do you really the ability to 1891 01:42:45.279 --> 01:42:49.399 really fully scrub you know, an area from you know, 1892 01:42:49.479 --> 01:42:53.399 from from human habitation is kind of unprecedented. And look again, 1893 01:42:53.439 --> 01:42:56.840 I understand their historical examples somewhat to the contrary, but 1894 01:42:56.960 --> 01:43:00.359 that that real not only ability, but kind of normalization 1895 01:43:00.800 --> 01:43:04.880 of I guess, just full scale and complete genocide is 1896 01:43:05.000 --> 01:43:07.279 kind of unprecedented. To Thomas, I was just kind of 1897 01:43:07.359 --> 01:43:11.079 talking about the difference between wars of annihilation and kind 1898 01:43:11.119 --> 01:43:13.600 of the pre technological era. You know, like, look like 1899 01:43:13.760 --> 01:43:16.199 Caesar killed an awful lot of gulls, you know, the 1900 01:43:16.319 --> 01:43:19.039 Mongols killed an awful lot of everyone. The ability to 1901 01:43:19.199 --> 01:43:22.239 essentially push a button and wipe a civilization from the 1902 01:43:22.319 --> 01:43:24.479 earth is kind of unprecedented, right. 1903 01:43:25.039 --> 01:43:28.920 Oh yeah, the uh, the uh, the instrumentalities of such 1904 01:43:29.000 --> 01:43:32.680 things were, uh were unprecedented, of course. I mean that 1905 01:43:33.399 --> 01:43:36.640 when the rubber means the road, that uh, that was 1906 01:43:36.680 --> 01:43:41.479 the concrete game change or however, something happened in the 1907 01:43:41.560 --> 01:43:46.840 twentieth century owing the a dialectical process. I mean that 1908 01:43:46.920 --> 01:43:51.239 was underway, I mean for centuries beforehand, but wars became 1909 01:43:51.399 --> 01:43:57.640 total when they became truly events that could be characterized 1910 01:43:57.640 --> 01:44:00.319 as velt and shawn krieg the uh. 1911 01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:02.960 So can you I've heard you say that phrase before, 1912 01:44:03.079 --> 01:44:05.560 but I'm not familiar with the actual meaning of it. 1913 01:44:05.640 --> 01:44:06.800 What does that German phrase mean? 1914 01:44:07.159 --> 01:44:13.359 I mean literally, uh, worldview war or worldview struggled. I 1915 01:44:13.640 --> 01:44:17.520 agree with all these basic thesis that there is something 1916 01:44:17.560 --> 01:44:22.560 in there is something not just intrinsically homicidal on a 1917 01:44:22.640 --> 01:44:26.720 massive scale, but axiomatically so to Marxist Leninism. That's not 1918 01:44:26.800 --> 01:44:31.159 some cheap polemical UH take saying like oh those you know, 1919 01:44:31.199 --> 01:44:33.560 those reds are evil? Like what I mean is that 1920 01:44:34.399 --> 01:44:37.560 the uh? What what communism demands in order for it 1921 01:44:37.640 --> 01:44:41.880 to be implemented. It's it's got to completely restructure man's 1922 01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:46.439 conceptual horizon. Okay, it's from the ground up. It's it's 1923 01:44:46.680 --> 01:44:50.159 it's it's got to literally eradicate everything that came before 1924 01:44:51.079 --> 01:44:58.199 and any conceptual biases that uh would derive from what 1925 01:44:58.560 --> 01:44:59.199 preceded it. 1926 01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:02.119 And and uh, I agree with you, but I would 1927 01:45:02.119 --> 01:45:05.239 also I would also say that there we see the 1928 01:45:05.399 --> 01:45:09.359 advent of total war I guess, kind of dawning slightly before, 1929 01:45:10.159 --> 01:45:13.000 you know, in the very in the late nineteenth century, right. 1930 01:45:13.399 --> 01:45:16.279 I mean there was always there was always instances of 1931 01:45:16.319 --> 01:45:20.760 of of of genocide and categorical annihilation of enemy forces. 1932 01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:23.560 You know, I made a point before, you know that 1933 01:45:23.640 --> 01:45:26.000 the Greeks, the thing between Hassis and and Nimicus, you know, 1934 01:45:26.159 --> 01:45:32.039 conflicts within a common uh basically common moral paradigm, and 1935 01:45:32.399 --> 01:45:37.039 conflicts waged you know, against people's outside of that paradigm, Okay, 1936 01:45:37.560 --> 01:45:39.760 in which case, you know, no quarter would be afforded 1937 01:45:39.800 --> 01:45:42.920 to them. And yes there were instances of genocide, but 1938 01:45:43.279 --> 01:45:45.159 they had had a more I was. 1939 01:45:45.159 --> 01:45:46.960 More talking about and and forgive me because I just 1940 01:45:47.000 --> 01:45:48.840 want to interject this quickly because I think this is 1941 01:45:48.840 --> 01:45:53.680 an interesting discussion that that kind of war of ideology, 1942 01:45:54.159 --> 01:45:56.199 right is it less of like like the Creek War 1943 01:45:56.279 --> 01:45:58.199 would be an example of that. That's kind of basic 1944 01:45:58.319 --> 01:46:01.079 human stuff, not to take away from the horror of it, 1945 01:46:01.119 --> 01:46:02.399 but it's a pattern we see. 1946 01:46:02.720 --> 01:46:03.399 Yeah, exactly. 1947 01:46:03.479 --> 01:46:06.000 I noticed it with with things like the you know, 1948 01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:09.039 with with the UH, with with the war between the states, right, 1949 01:46:09.520 --> 01:46:12.800 but this really was viewed as kind of a like 1950 01:46:12.920 --> 01:46:15.399 even though it was essentially an internacing conflict, right, it 1951 01:46:15.520 --> 01:46:17.760 is kind of viewed as like, I don't know, like 1952 01:46:17.960 --> 01:46:20.920 a war between the army of one and the and 1953 01:46:21.039 --> 01:46:25.000 I guess like the the the wicked citizens of another. Right, 1954 01:46:25.159 --> 01:46:27.039 like I live in an area that was essentially burned 1955 01:46:27.079 --> 01:46:27.600 to the ground. 1956 01:46:28.079 --> 01:46:31.079 No, No, definitely, and there was always there there were 1957 01:46:31.119 --> 01:46:34.920 there was, there was, There was always crusader wars metaphorically 1958 01:46:35.079 --> 01:46:38.760 and literally, okay, and and and in clashes of world 1959 01:46:38.880 --> 01:46:42.880 views that you know, we're essentially the driving impetus of 1960 01:46:43.079 --> 01:46:46.039 of violence rather than any kind of material cause. But 1961 01:46:46.479 --> 01:46:49.159 what we're talking about with the twentieth century and velden 1962 01:46:49.239 --> 01:46:52.840 Jung Greek was something different, Like what communism calls for 1963 01:46:53.199 --> 01:46:58.359 is literally the categorical extermination of entire populations of people 1964 01:46:58.880 --> 01:47:01.880 owing to the fact that they simply cannot be assimilated 1965 01:47:01.920 --> 01:47:04.680 into the new order, and by the fact that they're 1966 01:47:04.720 --> 01:47:08.640 the standard bearers of uh of ideas or even just 1967 01:47:08.960 --> 01:47:13.159 you know, knowledge that of the prior regime. You know, 1968 01:47:13.520 --> 01:47:17.840 they they they they can't be permitted to exist because 1969 01:47:18.000 --> 01:47:21.439 the only way to annihilate ideas ideas only exist within 1970 01:47:21.479 --> 01:47:25.840 the human vessels that you know, uh, that bear them, Okay, 1971 01:47:26.640 --> 01:47:29.840 And declaring that, you know, you've got to exterminate every man, 1972 01:47:29.920 --> 01:47:32.520 woman and child who cost it's a counter revolutionary element 1973 01:47:33.000 --> 01:47:36.399 and do so dispassionately in order to create a talleric utopia. 1974 01:47:37.039 --> 01:47:40.600 Like that's that's something totally different than anything that's been 1975 01:47:40.640 --> 01:47:45.880 seen before. Okay, Okay, I understand, Yeah, and thus that's 1976 01:47:45.920 --> 01:47:50.000 why the uh I mean, I I don't know. I 1977 01:47:50.000 --> 01:47:52.039 don't know if people think I'm being flippant about these things, 1978 01:47:52.119 --> 01:47:54.840 but you know, I don't think. I don't think the 1979 01:47:54.880 --> 01:47:59.279 annihilation of h of Jewish civilians by the German Reich, 1980 01:47:59.319 --> 01:48:04.039 and it's l I was particularly remarkable because that was 1981 01:48:04.119 --> 01:48:07.039 just something that was underway during the war years. But 1982 01:48:07.399 --> 01:48:09.399 the internal logic of it also is a way of 1983 01:48:09.439 --> 01:48:12.560 returning to serve, you know, like I, like I indicated 1984 01:48:13.840 --> 01:48:17.479 a few weeks ago in an episode I cut, whether 1985 01:48:17.600 --> 01:48:21.640 Dear Front Pete canone is as NULTI indicated, you know, 1986 01:48:22.439 --> 01:48:26.560 the the German Reich was was aiming to exterminate the exterminator. Okay, 1987 01:48:26.720 --> 01:48:29.560 if you accept and I'm saying from the perspective of 1988 01:48:29.600 --> 01:48:34.079 the German Reich, Okay, if communism is literally annihilating the 1989 01:48:34.119 --> 01:48:37.960 European way of life, and the progenitor of communism is 1990 01:48:38.000 --> 01:48:41.239 the Jewish world of social existence, the only way to 1991 01:48:41.319 --> 01:48:45.720 annihilate communism is to annihilate the standard bearers and progenitors 1992 01:48:45.760 --> 01:48:49.439 of that idea. And if that is European Jewry, you 1993 01:48:49.560 --> 01:48:55.199 categorically annihilate it, just as that population is the progenitor 1994 01:48:55.600 --> 01:49:02.439 of an ideology that axiomatically is is exterminating europe In. 1995 01:49:02.640 --> 01:49:08.039 It's it's biological stock, it's it's its conceptual existence, it's 1996 01:49:08.399 --> 01:49:12.239 it's ability to its ability to live historically, you know, 1997 01:49:12.479 --> 01:49:15.920 and and and and perpetuate itself. Like that is the 1998 01:49:15.960 --> 01:49:19.159 way to understand it. And if people think the sounds 1999 01:49:19.279 --> 01:49:23.840 abstract again like I'm not in in in esoteric again, 2000 01:49:23.920 --> 01:49:25.920 I'm not saying And now there was no dy suggesting, 2001 01:49:26.479 --> 01:49:27.920 and now there was a height of girl although he 2002 01:49:28.199 --> 01:49:30.279 was dealing with things in a far less kind of 2003 01:49:31.199 --> 01:49:34.680 concrete a particular way that when people are mired in 2004 01:49:34.760 --> 01:49:37.359 these circumstances, that this is what they're consciously thinking or 2005 01:49:37.439 --> 01:49:40.279 acting out. What he's saying is that at scale or 2006 01:49:40.319 --> 01:49:43.600 what these thinkers were saying. What I'm saying is that 2007 01:49:43.760 --> 01:49:48.840 at scale in uh, in psychological and sociological terms, UH, 2008 01:49:49.520 --> 01:49:54.119 this is how uh veld In Shawn Kreeg develops and resolves. 2009 01:49:54.920 --> 01:49:59.359 And it's a unique phenomenon to the twentieth century. That's 2010 01:49:59.359 --> 01:50:04.119 why interesting, Well, I find myself when, uh, when when 2011 01:50:04.119 --> 01:50:07.439 people say that, like, you know, the the various genocides 2012 01:50:07.439 --> 01:50:11.520 of the Second World War were we're unprecedented. I I 2013 01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:15.279 disagree with them obviously when they're when they're as when 2014 01:50:15.319 --> 01:50:18.920 they're aim is to transform these events into an ethnosectarium, 2015 01:50:19.000 --> 01:50:23.319 the narrative of murdered them. But they are correct, however 2016 01:50:23.600 --> 01:50:29.880 unintentionally so or inadvertently so. Rather that these things were 2017 01:50:29.920 --> 01:50:32.880 basically unprecedented, We're not just talking about, you know, the 2018 01:50:32.960 --> 01:50:35.680 callous extermination of non combatants. We're not just talking about 2019 01:50:36.359 --> 01:50:40.000 you know, enmity within within a conflict paradigm, you know, 2020 01:50:40.119 --> 01:50:43.760 leading the you know, leading the combatant states. Uh, not 2021 01:50:43.920 --> 01:50:49.279 distinguishing between sould and civilian. That Uh, that, yes, that's 2022 01:50:49.319 --> 01:50:54.319 something that's always happened to varying degrees, albeit at at 2023 01:50:54.720 --> 01:50:58.399 at lesser scale. But uh, we're talking about a very 2024 01:50:58.439 --> 01:51:02.479 different phenomenon, and I'm splitting hers here. So I realized 2025 01:51:02.520 --> 01:51:05.760 that was a lot just now. But no, no, that 2026 01:51:05.880 --> 01:51:09.960 wasn't a topics that we be It's fundamentally important understanding understanding. 2027 01:51:11.119 --> 01:51:13.079 I misunderstood what you meant at first, But that that 2028 01:51:13.199 --> 01:51:17.159 cleared it up. So I've read not a great deal 2029 01:51:17.199 --> 01:51:19.960 of Marx, but I've read, you know, the Communist Manifesto 2030 01:51:20.239 --> 01:51:24.680 and some of his poems, and I can't remember exactly where, 2031 01:51:24.760 --> 01:51:28.399 but it's his early poetry. He writes a lot about Satan, 2032 01:51:28.800 --> 01:51:32.239 I mean kind of a yeah, an odd amount about Satan. 2033 01:51:32.600 --> 01:51:34.199 And I need to talked the last time about the 2034 01:51:34.720 --> 01:51:38.199 like Milton's concept of Satan right as the kind of 2035 01:51:38.279 --> 01:51:42.439 the eternal rebel. So where do you think, I guess 2036 01:51:42.479 --> 01:51:46.560 where do you think the innovation is in Marx that 2037 01:51:46.960 --> 01:51:51.159 I guess allowed for this this like this, I guess philosophy, extermination. 2038 01:51:51.520 --> 01:51:53.680 I mean, I just think that I don't think Marx 2039 01:51:53.800 --> 01:51:55.760 was I mean I think Marx frankly was a was a. 2040 01:51:56.800 --> 01:51:58.159 I go as far as to say that, in many 2041 01:51:58.199 --> 01:52:00.840 respects Marx was an evil man. Okay, I do not 2042 01:52:00.920 --> 01:52:02.039 think he was an art I don't. I don't not 2043 01:52:02.119 --> 01:52:05.399 think he was an architect of extermination in concrete terms, 2044 01:52:05.840 --> 01:52:10.640 but I I I do believe he was basically a 2045 01:52:10.760 --> 01:52:13.199 Jewish thinker. And when I say that too, people don't. 2046 01:52:13.720 --> 01:52:16.239 People misunderstand that as well, Like they're like, oh, but 2047 01:52:16.439 --> 01:52:18.520 Marx was an atheist That's not what I'm saying. I'm 2048 01:52:18.520 --> 01:52:20.640 not saying that Marx was going to synagogue every week. 2049 01:52:20.760 --> 01:52:22.920 I'm not saying he said a ringa talmud. I'm not 2050 01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:25.840 even saying he valued his heritage. Like what I'm saying 2051 01:52:25.920 --> 01:52:32.279 is that conceptually, we can't really escape our confessional heritage. Okay, 2052 01:52:33.399 --> 01:52:36.159 there's guys who are you know I made the point of, 2053 01:52:36.279 --> 01:52:38.960 you know, like Paul Schrader used to comment that when 2054 01:52:39.000 --> 01:52:41.279 he was at his most debased, you know, and this 2055 01:52:41.359 --> 01:52:43.199 comes down in a lot of his films, particularly films 2056 01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:47.079 like Hardcore and like Taxi Driver. You know, he even 2057 01:52:47.279 --> 01:52:50.000 even you know, he he he always had kind of 2058 01:52:50.000 --> 01:52:53.039 a calvin Hist orientation, even when he totally rejected the faith, 2059 01:52:53.119 --> 01:52:55.439 you know, in terms and and the way the manner 2060 01:52:55.479 --> 01:53:01.039 wish he abused himself was was was was was it 2061 01:53:01.119 --> 01:53:04.600 kind of in verse like self flagellation. You know, like 2062 01:53:04.720 --> 01:53:08.279 I people who I've read a lot of, like some 2063 01:53:08.359 --> 01:53:11.399 of these world systems, theorists, you know, who are you know, 2064 01:53:11.479 --> 01:53:13.479 we're who are people who are raised you know, in 2065 01:53:13.680 --> 01:53:17.520 the Catholic faith and you know and and uh, throughout 2066 01:53:17.520 --> 01:53:20.840 their entire adult life, you know, they've rejected a religious belief. 2067 01:53:21.439 --> 01:53:24.159 But uh, you know, the when when their their discussion 2068 01:53:24.199 --> 01:53:26.920 of ethics, they're you know, they're invoking you know, Thomas 2069 01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:29.960 ethics in the you know, in the Scholastics. You know, 2070 01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:32.840 they're making like Catholic arguments but trying to remove God 2071 01:53:32.920 --> 01:53:35.439 from the equation. Okay, So when I talk about Marx 2072 01:53:35.479 --> 01:53:38.079 being a Jewish thinker, I'm not saying that in conspirale 2073 01:53:38.640 --> 01:53:42.600 conspiratorial terms are suggesting that you know, you know, people 2074 01:53:42.640 --> 01:53:45.039 are somehow pre programmed to think certain ways, won't get 2075 01:53:45.039 --> 01:53:48.560 their race. I'm saying that this uh, this this this 2076 01:53:48.720 --> 01:53:51.920 belief and a Tulluric utopia, you know, this belief that 2077 01:53:52.680 --> 01:53:56.479 you know, uh, this belief that Marx was something of 2078 01:53:56.600 --> 01:53:59.920 a uh you know, had was with something of the 2079 01:54:00.079 --> 01:54:04.960 and you know, uh was ordained by God, you know, 2080 01:54:05.239 --> 01:54:09.600 or you know, by you know, historical dialectical process standing 2081 01:54:09.640 --> 01:54:13.680 in for providence. You know, he was ordained you know, 2082 01:54:13.800 --> 01:54:17.119 to kind of lead a cadre of the anointed, even 2083 01:54:17.199 --> 01:54:20.199 long after his death, like through his writing and the 2084 01:54:20.279 --> 01:54:23.680 concepts that he transmitted even from beyond the grave, uh, 2085 01:54:24.319 --> 01:54:27.840 you know, to to create a Tolleric utopia. In the 2086 01:54:27.880 --> 01:54:32.680 most apocalyptic terms, I mean that that's that's that's literally 2087 01:54:33.159 --> 01:54:36.479 uh a Jewish paradigm, Okay, I mean secular as it 2088 01:54:36.560 --> 01:54:41.199 may be, not particularly self aware, as the author would 2089 01:54:41.199 --> 01:54:44.920 be of his own intrinsic prejudices like that can't really 2090 01:54:44.960 --> 01:54:48.279 be avoided. And anybody who spends a lot of time 2091 01:54:48.720 --> 01:54:53.399 with uh A a guy who's basically a Jewish thinker culturally, 2092 01:54:53.479 --> 01:54:56.720 I mean, but probably especially if he's lapsed, he's gonna 2093 01:54:56.720 --> 01:54:58.560 spend a lot of time thinking about the devil. I mean, 2094 01:54:58.640 --> 01:55:01.399 not for any purell reason lego Jews worship the douvile. 2095 01:55:01.840 --> 01:55:04.119 But what I mean is that kind of that uh 2096 01:55:04.720 --> 01:55:09.960 that that that intractable and the intractable adversary is is 2097 01:55:10.199 --> 01:55:13.720 a figure, if nothing else, in symbolic psychological terms, that 2098 01:55:13.800 --> 01:55:17.520 somebody like Marx is going to identify with. Okay. And 2099 01:55:17.800 --> 01:55:23.520 also any historical process is going to entail creative destruction. 2100 01:55:24.039 --> 01:55:29.000 Like Shrumpeter coined that phrase, and I think I Shumpeter wasn't. 2101 01:55:29.600 --> 01:55:32.359 He gets a lot of credit as being a brilliant 2102 01:55:32.439 --> 01:55:38.199 heterodox economist, but he's not praise enough as a historian 2103 01:55:38.279 --> 01:55:42.520 and a political theorist, and that's unfortunate. But you know, 2104 01:55:42.600 --> 01:55:44.479 if you're talking about when I when I say that 2105 01:55:44.560 --> 01:55:49.279 there's that megacide. Uh you know ho, categorical homicide at 2106 01:55:49.359 --> 01:55:55.960 scale is axiomatically built into Marxist Leninism. I mean again, how, 2107 01:55:56.720 --> 01:55:58.640 how how do we like, what do we do with 2108 01:55:58.720 --> 01:56:03.960 these people who who cannot abandon the conceptual prejudice of 2109 01:56:04.000 --> 01:56:07.560 the ancient regime? You know, like how the only way 2110 01:56:08.399 --> 01:56:13.159 for communism to be realized is to completely restructure man's 2111 01:56:13.199 --> 01:56:18.279 conceptual horizon. I mean that entails the destruction of entire 2112 01:56:18.560 --> 01:56:23.159 worlds of social existence and the only way. And again, 2113 01:56:23.560 --> 01:56:29.560 humans are the bearers of ideas, and humans are the 2114 01:56:29.640 --> 01:56:34.640 standard bearers of of the social existences that that that 2115 01:56:34.800 --> 01:56:37.359 create these ideas. So if we're talking about whipping the 2116 01:56:37.439 --> 01:56:42.920 verbial slate clean, we're talking about annihilating human means. I 2117 01:56:43.039 --> 01:56:45.720 come back to the example of democratic Campuccia a lot, 2118 01:56:46.000 --> 01:56:49.159 and I've made the point, and this has made a 2119 01:56:49.199 --> 01:56:52.720 lot of people upset. People on the rights I think 2120 01:56:52.720 --> 01:56:59.279 I'm being flippant and engaging in elaborate apologia for oriental savagery. 2121 01:56:59.439 --> 01:57:02.079 People on the life because they think I'm invoking a 2122 01:57:02.119 --> 01:57:05.439 horrendous example of of Averan mass homicide and suggesting that 2123 01:57:05.560 --> 01:57:10.000 it's normative for Marxist Leninism. Paul Pott was a Pharma 2124 01:57:10.079 --> 01:57:14.279 orthodox Marxist and ho Chi Mint and Maw and certainly 2125 01:57:14.560 --> 01:57:19.439 h Kim Il Sung and frankly, uh, virtually all of 2126 01:57:19.520 --> 01:57:24.279 the UH, all of the UH, all the communist revolutionary 2127 01:57:25.000 --> 01:57:31.680 figures after nineteen forty nine or so, I really believe that. 2128 01:57:32.119 --> 01:57:36.159 And uh he had no qualms obviously about the fact 2129 01:57:36.279 --> 01:57:40.680 that categorical extermination was the only way to facilitate the 2130 01:57:40.800 --> 01:57:46.640 revolutionary process. That is not to say that individual men 2131 01:57:46.800 --> 01:57:50.039 can somehow devise these processes, because obviously that's absurd, and 2132 01:57:50.880 --> 01:57:54.560 that's a peculiar and ridiculous American conceit. It's kind of 2133 01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:56.840 an inversion of the great Man theory of history. Uh, 2134 01:57:57.640 --> 01:58:00.399 it's uh, it's kind of it's not even with this 2135 01:58:00.479 --> 01:58:03.479 kind of Simpleton's idea that that that these that these 2136 01:58:03.560 --> 01:58:06.159 villains who insinuate themselves in the role as heads of state, 2137 01:58:06.239 --> 01:58:10.159 it's all manufacture history and move move apocal events or 2138 01:58:10.239 --> 01:58:13.000 like will apocal events into into reality. I mean that 2139 01:58:13.079 --> 01:58:15.760 that's so absurd. I don't even know how to rebut it. 2140 01:58:15.920 --> 01:58:19.159 It's because it's it's that fucking stupid. But you know, 2141 01:58:19.279 --> 01:58:25.079 Paul Pott I he was remarkeadbly candid about the horrific 2142 01:58:25.279 --> 01:58:29.800 uh things that he presided over. And uh he spoke 2143 01:58:29.880 --> 01:58:33.680 of these things like sort of dispassionate, uh curiosity almost 2144 01:58:34.399 --> 01:58:38.239 But he never sought out an alibi, historical or otherwise. 2145 01:58:38.319 --> 01:58:42.479 And some things are lost in translation. But I I 2146 01:58:42.560 --> 01:58:45.800 don't think i'm I don't think i'm i'm. I don't 2147 01:58:45.840 --> 01:58:49.159 think I'm fishing for, you know, staments to confirm my 2148 01:58:49.199 --> 01:58:51.680 pre existing biases. When I say that he was very 2149 01:58:51.800 --> 01:58:55.399 aware of this in a way that probably none of 2150 01:58:55.479 --> 01:59:00.520 his uh none of his ideological fellows were, uh, save 2151 01:59:00.640 --> 01:59:01.760 maybe for Lamin himself. 2152 01:59:03.279 --> 01:59:06.279 It's and I want to kind of I agree with you, 2153 01:59:06.439 --> 01:59:09.079 right that there is that Yeah, yeah, that Paul Pot 2154 01:59:09.159 --> 01:59:11.279 to a certain extent, is the most is the most 2155 01:59:11.359 --> 01:59:12.039 honest about it. 2156 01:59:12.520 --> 01:59:12.640 Right. 2157 01:59:12.720 --> 01:59:16.039 There is no like, there's no kind of like cringing justification. 2158 01:59:16.520 --> 01:59:16.680 You know. 2159 01:59:16.720 --> 01:59:18.279 It's pretty much like, oh, this is how it has 2160 01:59:18.359 --> 01:59:21.920 to be. And weirdly enough, there's a there's a sci 2161 01:59:22.000 --> 01:59:25.399 fi book that's kind of come into popularity recently, and 2162 01:59:25.439 --> 01:59:29.039 it's kind of a midway sci fi book. It has 2163 01:59:29.119 --> 01:59:31.680 a blurb on the back by Obama. Because I should 2164 01:59:31.680 --> 01:59:35.039 tell you but it's the Three Body Problem by a 2165 01:59:35.119 --> 01:59:38.720 Chinese author, and it's a fine enough book, but the 2166 01:59:38.800 --> 01:59:42.960 whole first third of it basically follows our main character 2167 01:59:43.760 --> 01:59:46.960 as a girl living through the Chinese cultural revolute interesting. 2168 01:59:47.239 --> 01:59:48.520 The worst part about it is it's kind of the 2169 01:59:48.560 --> 01:59:50.399 best part of the book. You know. The rest of 2170 01:59:50.399 --> 01:59:52.359 the book is fine enough, but to me at least, 2171 01:59:52.399 --> 01:59:55.239 I've kind of forgotten all about it except for that part. Yeah, 2172 01:59:55.359 --> 01:59:58.920 I mean calling subject what's interesting, and it kind of 2173 01:59:59.000 --> 02:00:01.720 dovetails in what you're talking about is that there there's 2174 02:00:01.800 --> 02:00:04.800 the scene where essentially all of the all of the 2175 02:00:05.479 --> 02:00:08.960 professors who haven't been executed have essentially been put on 2176 02:00:09.560 --> 02:00:12.479 like labor gangs, right, essentially to put them in the 2177 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:15.960 same plight as the peasantry, right, right. And there's this 2178 02:00:16.079 --> 02:00:19.880 extended session where some of the professors who were a 2179 02:00:20.000 --> 02:00:25.600 cologists are being forced to DeForest vast swaths of China 2180 02:00:26.159 --> 02:00:29.600 for essentially no reason. And there's this conversation which and 2181 02:00:29.840 --> 02:00:32.159 again I'm remembering this through the haze of a couple 2182 02:00:32.159 --> 02:00:34.800 of years, right, or essentially comes out that like, oh no, 2183 02:00:34.880 --> 02:00:37.920 they're not doing this for the land, right, They're doing 2184 02:00:38.000 --> 02:00:40.560 it for you, you know, they're doing it to essentially 2185 02:00:40.680 --> 02:00:44.520 kind of in like an odd like science version of 2186 02:00:44.560 --> 02:00:46.720 a black mass, right like, force you to kind of 2187 02:00:46.840 --> 02:00:49.880 desecrate your life's work and force you to, in order 2188 02:00:49.960 --> 02:00:53.680 to survive, kind of remake yourself. And it's interesting because 2189 02:00:54.119 --> 02:00:56.880 to me, at least, right like, there's something kind of 2190 02:00:57.560 --> 02:01:03.079 genuinely terrifying about that, right Like it it's outside and again, 2191 02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:06.239 like what you said about a lot of with you 2192 02:01:06.319 --> 02:01:10.039 and I write with our our with our like religious tradition, right, 2193 02:01:10.079 --> 02:01:12.359 we have a pretty dark understanding of human right like, 2194 02:01:12.439 --> 02:01:14.920 kind of every part of us is to some degree 2195 02:01:15.000 --> 02:01:17.560 or another corrupted. But there's also kind of a comfort 2196 02:01:17.600 --> 02:01:19.720 in that, right that realistically, like humans are kind of 2197 02:01:19.760 --> 02:01:23.359 a known quantity, you know. And but at the same time, 2198 02:01:23.439 --> 02:01:26.439 there is something profoundly disturbing at that kind of like 2199 02:01:26.760 --> 02:01:30.800 new level of I guess like human horror, if that 2200 02:01:30.920 --> 02:01:33.079 makes sense, right, that it's not just someone robbing a 2201 02:01:33.159 --> 02:01:35.920 liquor store or someone sacking a city, right there does 2202 02:01:35.960 --> 02:01:38.600 seem to be this kind of odd and this is 2203 02:01:38.760 --> 02:01:42.479 very clear in the Chinese Cultural Revolution and also in Cambodia. Right, 2204 02:01:43.079 --> 02:01:47.000 but this odd almost joy in it, you know, this 2205 02:01:47.199 --> 02:01:50.560 like joy in degradation that's kind of frightening at least 2206 02:01:50.600 --> 02:01:50.760 to me. 2207 02:01:51.399 --> 02:01:53.399 Well there's also yeah, and I mean part of that 2208 02:01:53.640 --> 02:01:57.920 is I I'm not any kind of Orientalist I've got 2209 02:01:58.000 --> 02:02:00.560 to read. I mean, I'm fascinated by the East, but 2210 02:02:00.600 --> 02:02:04.279 I've got pretty much a dilettants understanding of it because 2211 02:02:04.279 --> 02:02:08.560 it's not my wheelhouse. But there is uh, there is 2212 02:02:08.840 --> 02:02:12.000 uh It's not it's it's not just a Western showing 2213 02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:15.119 his perspective that oh, when you know, when the orient 2214 02:02:15.279 --> 02:02:19.720 life is abundant and cheap, or this idea that you know, 2215 02:02:19.800 --> 02:02:24.359 there's uh there, there's there's an there's a there's a 2216 02:02:24.439 --> 02:02:29.279 sanguinary amorality to uh, these Eastern religions. I mean, I, 2217 02:02:29.399 --> 02:02:32.159 for one, find it fascinating that you know, these that people, 2218 02:02:32.680 --> 02:02:36.960 these kind of like these kind of dopey, uh like 2219 02:02:37.359 --> 02:02:40.960 bougie white people. I think that Tibet is some it's 2220 02:02:41.039 --> 02:02:43.960 some kind of like land of sublime piece. Tibetan Buddhism 2221 02:02:44.079 --> 02:02:47.680 is abjectly horrifying. It's it's a pantheon of terror gods 2222 02:02:49.760 --> 02:02:54.119 that uh like Khaali I guess in the Hindu pantheon 2223 02:02:55.079 --> 02:02:57.479 like to exists beyond good and evil and are only 2224 02:02:58.199 --> 02:03:01.840 and are only uh and only placated by by the 2225 02:03:01.920 --> 02:03:06.920 most horrendous uh the forms of suffering. And again I 2226 02:03:07.119 --> 02:03:09.000 don't purport to have any kind of insight into the 2227 02:03:09.039 --> 02:03:11.279 orient I don't. I don't have any fluency in any 2228 02:03:11.279 --> 02:03:15.439 of their languages, and I it's it's not something of 2229 02:03:15.520 --> 02:03:19.600 expertise on. But so there's that that I believe plays 2230 02:03:19.640 --> 02:03:25.239 into plays into these uh these uh, these darker episodes 2231 02:03:25.319 --> 02:03:30.279 and in Chinese political life. But also there's a tendency, 2232 02:03:30.520 --> 02:03:34.760 I mean, owing to what you mentioned uh about Mark 2233 02:03:34.840 --> 02:03:38.840 seving genuine sympathy for the double there's something about revolutionary 2234 02:03:38.920 --> 02:03:42.560 communism that believed very much in in the in the 2235 02:03:42.640 --> 02:03:45.359 degradation of the person. I don't just mean breaking down 2236 02:03:45.439 --> 02:03:49.199 to the individual idea of self. I mean in assault 2237 02:03:49.319 --> 02:03:51.560 kind of in the intimate moral core of the person. 2238 02:03:52.439 --> 02:03:54.920 And uh this played out in Romania too. There was 2239 02:03:55.000 --> 02:03:58.439 these horrible prison experiments, uh, the things that don't even 2240 02:03:58.479 --> 02:04:00.319 really want our peaks, that rather think about out them 2241 02:04:00.359 --> 02:04:05.119 and it would be distasteful, these really really grotesque tortures 2242 02:04:05.159 --> 02:04:10.000 often that took on ah uh a psycho sexual dimension. 2243 02:04:10.119 --> 02:04:15.800 Uh that were that that that that Romanians prisoners were 2244 02:04:15.800 --> 02:04:20.560 subjected to immediately after a cessation of hostilities, when you know, 2245 02:04:20.640 --> 02:04:23.800 in the Communists were consolidated their satellite regime there and 2246 02:04:24.319 --> 02:04:26.319 and some of these people had you know, been manustered 2247 02:04:26.359 --> 02:04:28.560 in the Iron Guard or in the Behrmacht. But some 2248 02:04:28.640 --> 02:04:31.960 of these people, they've just been denounced, you know, by 2249 02:04:32.119 --> 02:04:35.319 personal enemies or something. And you know, there was the 2250 02:04:35.560 --> 02:04:38.399 there was an effort to destroy these people above and 2251 02:04:38.479 --> 02:04:44.359 beyond you know, merely punitive measures or or or terror tactic. 2252 02:04:44.399 --> 02:04:47.399 Sam that you know, guaranteeing the compliance of others might 2253 02:04:47.439 --> 02:04:51.079 be similarly inclined to resistance. And uh, even though he's 2254 02:04:51.880 --> 02:04:55.720 overly uh, even though he's overly sighted by kind of 2255 02:04:55.800 --> 02:04:59.159 midwoods all and sundry like Orwell, George Orwell actually had 2256 02:04:59.199 --> 02:05:01.399 quite a bit of insight to that. I don't think 2257 02:05:01.479 --> 02:05:03.680 nineteen eighty four is a great book overall, but the 2258 02:05:03.800 --> 02:05:08.560 process by which it describes, uh, what the regimes and 2259 02:05:08.600 --> 02:05:11.680 ambitions are with respect to their treatment of the individual 2260 02:05:11.760 --> 02:05:16.199 in order to break down his psychic resistance and eradicate 2261 02:05:16.439 --> 02:05:21.359 his inner self, to quite literally preclude the possibility of 2262 02:05:21.479 --> 02:05:27.279 any dissident ideas even formulating because you know, again communism, 2263 02:05:27.359 --> 02:05:32.279 despite the fact that it places haig aliens UH paradigm 2264 02:05:32.319 --> 02:05:35.560 on its head. You know, when UH and and and 2265 02:05:35.880 --> 02:05:39.760 and brain drags cause and effect and and human motivations 2266 02:05:41.039 --> 02:05:44.039 and historical occurrences into the into the realm of the 2267 02:05:44.159 --> 02:05:47.760 purely physical. I mean sort of alleges. I mean anyone 2268 02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:52.479 who any any any any theoretical construct or UH or 2269 02:05:52.520 --> 02:05:58.199 ideological structure that suggests that a dialectical process is the 2270 02:05:58.319 --> 02:06:04.439 prime movement of history. They're talking about ideas, Okay, they did, 2271 02:06:04.560 --> 02:06:08.880 that's inescapable. Okay. And if you're talking about ideas, you 2272 02:06:08.920 --> 02:06:12.359 know you're talking about uh, you're you're talking about uh, 2273 02:06:13.119 --> 02:06:18.279 the transcendental existence of things beyond the tangible. I'm not 2274 02:06:18.319 --> 02:06:20.720 even talling, I'm not dennoying some platonist argument or I'm 2275 02:06:20.720 --> 02:06:23.039 not even saying, you know that things have some spiritual lessons. 2276 02:06:23.520 --> 02:06:25.760 I'm saying that so long as the idea of something 2277 02:06:26.479 --> 02:06:32.279 exists within a human mind or minds, that thing exists. Okay. 2278 02:06:32.399 --> 02:06:36.600 And that's that's UH. That's what's terrified with nineteen eighty 2279 02:06:36.680 --> 02:06:41.319 four is that O'Brien, the party Apparatrick and Master Torture. 2280 02:06:41.520 --> 02:06:44.479 He's a based uh, he's a based as psychiatrists, okay, 2281 02:06:45.239 --> 02:06:48.319 or a psychic or a psychic or a surgeon of 2282 02:06:48.680 --> 02:06:51.520 of of the mind, if one will, okay in the 2283 02:06:51.600 --> 02:06:56.239 most insidious terms. And again that that's intrinsic to communism 2284 02:06:57.760 --> 02:07:01.079 because it never aimed at mere compliance, never aimed at, 2285 02:07:01.680 --> 02:07:05.600 you know, simply directing people to behave in certain ways 2286 02:07:06.319 --> 02:07:10.479 or mouth certain platitudes or abide certain realities. It required 2287 02:07:10.520 --> 02:07:14.880 the complete and total restructuring of the human consciousness in 2288 02:07:14.960 --> 02:07:16.880 accordance with the revolutionary idea. 2289 02:07:18.199 --> 02:07:21.800 Well, so it's interesting because I'm not super well read 2290 02:07:22.159 --> 02:07:26.199 on what happened in Eastern Europe, but from the accounts 2291 02:07:26.239 --> 02:07:31.560 that I have read, specifically, they targeted priests particularly gruesomely, right, 2292 02:07:31.640 --> 02:07:33.640 And the Black Mass is actually not a bad thing 2293 02:07:33.720 --> 02:07:35.560 to bring back up because and again I won't go 2294 02:07:35.600 --> 02:07:38.680 into the details because they're distasteful in the extreme, but 2295 02:07:39.039 --> 02:07:42.640 the things that they forced those men to do to 2296 02:07:42.800 --> 02:07:47.119 essentially desecrate Christianity and Christian symbols, to kind of break 2297 02:07:47.199 --> 02:07:50.359 them or kind of horrifying, and going back to nineteen 2298 02:07:50.399 --> 02:07:52.640 eighty four, and this is a slight digression, it's actually 2299 02:07:52.720 --> 02:07:56.640 part of the reason I refuse to kind of use 2300 02:07:56.760 --> 02:08:00.880 things like like the neo pronouns, disease ms are that 2301 02:08:00.960 --> 02:08:04.279 kind of ridiculous stuff. It is because there's kind of 2302 02:08:04.279 --> 02:08:08.399 a psychological mechanism behind it. I don't fully understand the 2303 02:08:08.520 --> 02:08:12.399 science of but by kind of making yourself complicit with 2304 02:08:12.520 --> 02:08:15.920 a lie, oh definitely, kind of buying into it, right, 2305 02:08:16.000 --> 02:08:17.760 And that's that's that's what happens. And again that's my 2306 02:08:17.800 --> 02:08:20.279 favorite part of nineteen eighty four. It's awful. It is 2307 02:08:20.319 --> 02:08:22.119 to say, is when they're breaking him. Not because I 2308 02:08:22.279 --> 02:08:24.359 enjoy it, you know, some siko who gets off on it. 2309 02:08:24.479 --> 02:08:27.079 But no, no, no, it's it's the most important. Uh. 2310 02:08:27.479 --> 02:08:29.840 It's the most important aspect of the book, I believe 2311 02:08:29.960 --> 02:08:33.039 because it's and it's not it's not just some wild metaphor. 2312 02:08:33.199 --> 02:08:36.960 I mean the things everything in that book is everything 2313 02:08:37.000 --> 02:08:39.079 that book describes, everything that happens in it. I mean, 2314 02:08:39.119 --> 02:08:41.399 these are things that happened, you know. I mean the 2315 02:08:41.479 --> 02:08:45.760 setting is ah, it's a science fiction setting, but uh, 2316 02:08:46.760 --> 02:08:50.720 I mean adjusting for adjusting for uh for those uh 2317 02:08:51.600 --> 02:08:54.039 elements of the story. I mean these were things that 2318 02:08:54.840 --> 02:08:57.079 these are things that were pressed on it and documented, 2319 02:08:57.720 --> 02:09:02.199 you know, the and the uh I mean the point 2320 02:09:02.199 --> 02:09:05.199 of people before too. I mean not just as a revisionist, 2321 02:09:05.279 --> 02:09:09.239 but just in kind of non adversarial discussions of of 2322 02:09:09.520 --> 02:09:14.680 of history where people who you know aren't aren't properly 2323 02:09:14.680 --> 02:09:17.279 students of history, but you know, are a receptive uh 2324 02:09:17.920 --> 02:09:20.720 to new ideas and want and want to want to 2325 02:09:20.840 --> 02:09:24.159 educate themselves further on things, particularly but political in nature. 2326 02:09:24.880 --> 02:09:28.239 You know, Uh, it's not really reductionists to say that 2327 02:09:28.319 --> 02:09:30.520 in a very real sense, Uh, the history of the 2328 02:09:30.560 --> 02:09:35.840 twentieth century and uh is is really the the history 2329 02:09:35.880 --> 02:09:39.960 of the emergence of revolutionary communism. You know, it's uh, 2330 02:09:41.079 --> 02:09:44.159 it's it's it's violent, and it's it's the established the 2331 02:09:44.239 --> 02:09:50.880 megacitl arrival of it in Europe and uh then in 2332 02:09:51.000 --> 02:09:55.239 Asia and uh you know, the the dialectical and then 2333 02:09:55.239 --> 02:09:59.840 the military and uh existential revolt against it by the 2334 02:10:00.039 --> 02:10:03.079 German Reich and and part of Japan and allies, and 2335 02:10:03.199 --> 02:10:08.159 then the and then it's ultimate demise and capitulation. You know, 2336 02:10:08.159 --> 02:10:13.439 it's the dialectical process created uh, you know, a kind 2337 02:10:13.439 --> 02:10:16.279 of world society, you know, in the image of uh, 2338 02:10:17.520 --> 02:10:19.560 in the image of ole Trotsky in the free market. 2339 02:10:19.960 --> 02:10:23.560 I mean that's like history didn't end and the people 2340 02:10:23.600 --> 02:10:26.680 in both that term generally don't really understand what what 2341 02:10:27.600 --> 02:10:30.359 what left to galiens meant by the end of history. 2342 02:10:30.520 --> 02:10:36.640 But it's uh, you really, the history of the twentieth 2343 02:10:36.720 --> 02:10:42.199 century is uh is uh is, it's why, it's the 2344 02:10:42.319 --> 02:10:44.840 history of it's it's the it's the history of it's 2345 02:10:44.880 --> 02:10:47.319 the history of Marxism and Zionism, and there were bolts 2346 02:10:47.600 --> 02:10:52.239 uh against it and the the ultimate triumph of of 2347 02:10:52.359 --> 02:10:58.880 both ideologies, albeit in a dialectically altered form, And that's uh. 2348 02:10:59.079 --> 02:11:01.359 I agree with that. I think that that's well said. 2349 02:11:01.760 --> 02:11:03.520 So if you don't mind, I'd like to slightly veer 2350 02:11:03.600 --> 02:11:05.520 back on topic because I do want to talk more 2351 02:11:05.720 --> 02:11:07.239 about about steel Storm. 2352 02:11:07.560 --> 02:11:09.560 Oh yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. 2353 02:11:09.600 --> 02:11:12.840 So I understand right that the the I guess like 2354 02:11:12.920 --> 02:11:16.079 looking at things bimotally right, Like every every sci fi 2355 02:11:16.159 --> 02:11:18.960 story is either a utopia or a dystopia. I understand 2356 02:11:19.000 --> 02:11:21.680 that that's that's simplistic, but it's helpful for this for them. 2357 02:11:22.079 --> 02:11:22.960 I think it's physically true. 2358 02:11:23.039 --> 02:11:25.880 Yeah, So, where where would you say that steel Storm 2359 02:11:25.960 --> 02:11:28.920 falls on that that spectrum? And do you think that 2360 02:11:29.000 --> 02:11:32.079 one of those ways of viewing science fiction is more 2361 02:11:32.199 --> 02:11:33.279 or less helpful than the other. 2362 02:11:33.800 --> 02:11:38.319 Steelstorm is definitely dystopian, but it's not. It's it's not 2363 02:11:38.399 --> 02:11:43.680 gratuitously so science fiction that is gratuitously dystopian. I've got 2364 02:11:43.760 --> 02:11:46.239 mixed feelings about the film and the book The Road 2365 02:11:46.279 --> 02:11:49.119 about Cormack McCarthy. On the one hand, I think it's 2366 02:11:49.159 --> 02:11:52.680 a splendid antidote to foolishness like uh, like The Walking Dead. 2367 02:11:52.760 --> 02:11:56.640 And I think the way it characterizes civilizational collapse and 2368 02:11:56.840 --> 02:12:01.640 an environmental catasrophe and and and and situations of of 2369 02:12:01.840 --> 02:12:06.119 shortage creating true savity. I mean, it's a horrifying movie, 2370 02:12:06.239 --> 02:12:11.399 but it's so bleak and so unrelenting, unrelentingly so it's 2371 02:12:11.479 --> 02:12:14.760 really like I said, it's it's gratuitous. It's almost it's 2372 02:12:14.760 --> 02:12:18.119 almost uh. When when I come across things like that, 2373 02:12:18.279 --> 02:12:21.880 it almost it almost evinces a contempt for the for 2374 02:12:21.960 --> 02:12:24.319 the reader or the viewer. And that's not to say 2375 02:12:24.319 --> 02:12:28.039 that I'm averse to exploring disturbing topics of my writing. 2376 02:12:28.079 --> 02:12:29.920 I mean, as sometimes I worry I take it too 2377 02:12:30.000 --> 02:12:32.880 far in the Steel Storm books, because you know, there's 2378 02:12:33.720 --> 02:12:36.880 the deal is pretty frankly with some some pretty horrific stuff, 2379 02:12:36.960 --> 02:12:40.720 you know, particularly you know, relating to violence and and 2380 02:12:40.880 --> 02:12:44.239 and sexual violence and and and and violence at scales 2381 02:12:44.279 --> 02:12:47.560 perpetuated by you know, by regimes and things like that. 2382 02:12:47.840 --> 02:12:52.560 But it's UH, it's it's it's apocalyptic fiction with a 2383 02:12:52.600 --> 02:12:55.479 capital A. I don't just mean because the framing device 2384 02:12:56.279 --> 02:13:00.840 is an alternative. UH. Nineteen eighty three, we're in uh, 2385 02:13:01.319 --> 02:13:04.840 you know, NATO and Warsaw Pact UH collide in a 2386 02:13:05.359 --> 02:13:09.840 in a general uh thermonuclear war, which as time goes on, 2387 02:13:09.880 --> 02:13:13.000 it's revealed UH that the orders of this oh not 2388 02:13:13.119 --> 02:13:17.960 merely the structural features of the strategic landscape, but o 2389 02:13:18.119 --> 02:13:22.840 to a deliberate UH and conspiratorial web of intrigues. But 2390 02:13:22.880 --> 02:13:25.479 I don't want to spoil the plot for those who 2391 02:13:25.920 --> 02:13:28.399 wish to reach Steel Storm, which I hope many people do. 2392 02:13:29.199 --> 02:13:34.239 But within that dystopian UH setting, I'm trying to convey 2393 02:13:34.399 --> 02:13:38.239 something about UH redemption, but not in a corny way. 2394 02:13:39.760 --> 02:13:44.399 The UH intrinsic to the there's there's there's two basic 2395 02:13:44.520 --> 02:13:47.600 timelines in Steel Storm. There's a timeline in the late 2396 02:13:47.640 --> 02:13:51.199 twentieth century into the twenty first century where Billy Wong 2397 02:13:51.359 --> 02:13:56.399 becomes a messianic figure in history, and Billy Wong begins 2398 02:13:56.840 --> 02:13:59.840 we're introduced to him is about the most contemptible cre 2399 02:14:00.079 --> 02:14:04.159 you're imaginable. He's a drug addicts, he's a street person, 2400 02:14:04.600 --> 02:14:07.239 he's a sexual sadist, and he's a serial killer. For 2401 02:14:07.319 --> 02:14:12.079 all practical purposes, you know, if if Billy Wong can 2402 02:14:12.119 --> 02:14:16.600 be redeemed, uh, and not just redeemed, but you know, 2403 02:14:16.760 --> 02:14:22.720 can uh it can become a a messianic personage uh 2404 02:14:23.119 --> 02:14:26.720 lowercase M. Not not messianic in terms of you know, 2405 02:14:28.520 --> 02:14:33.920 but yeah, in historical political terms. It uh I I'm 2406 02:14:34.079 --> 02:14:37.520 I'm trying to convey something about the different lives people 2407 02:14:37.640 --> 02:14:43.319 live when they're availed to these punctuated historical catastrophees that 2408 02:14:44.119 --> 02:14:49.439 truly do uh you know, uh sweep up you know, 2409 02:14:49.840 --> 02:14:54.800 human material, individually and severally into the into their fold, 2410 02:14:55.479 --> 02:14:59.279 you know, like drift water, seaweed on a tumbling ocean, 2411 02:14:59.359 --> 02:15:04.000 you know. And uh, Billy Wong is redeemed because circumstances 2412 02:15:04.079 --> 02:15:06.760 allow him to be redeemed. And that and that's the 2413 02:15:06.800 --> 02:15:09.640 cunning of reason and history. And and as to what 2414 02:15:10.560 --> 02:15:13.880 many men who we view as as uh as these 2415 02:15:14.000 --> 02:15:17.199 kind of great men of history, you know, who we 2416 02:15:17.239 --> 02:15:20.239 consider above kind of the you know, their fellow man 2417 02:15:20.319 --> 02:15:23.880 in terms of their moral moral integrity. Uh. That that's 2418 02:15:23.960 --> 02:15:29.119 that's girls he misplaced. You know. Obviously you know God uh, 2419 02:15:30.159 --> 02:15:35.720 God uh softened uh their will to resist, to resist 2420 02:15:35.800 --> 02:15:39.520 his grace and uh you know allowed them uh to 2421 02:15:39.600 --> 02:15:42.720 become capable of salvation. But you know it was the 2422 02:15:42.960 --> 02:15:44.520 it was, it was it was the hand of providence 2423 02:15:44.560 --> 02:15:47.720 in history that that allows Billy Wang to be redeemed. 2424 02:15:47.800 --> 02:15:51.840 So that's first and foremost. And also, I mean, I 2425 02:15:52.920 --> 02:15:56.560 melodramatics may sound, I mean, and I'm not absolutely proud 2426 02:15:56.600 --> 02:15:59.159 of it, nor do I dwell on it. Though I 2427 02:15:59.239 --> 02:16:02.760 do know something the Chicago street that Billy Wong indoors 2428 02:16:02.880 --> 02:16:06.279 day to day. And I've met Billy Wong himself as 2429 02:16:06.279 --> 02:16:09.960 a compositive people. I knew that very well. Okay, everything 2430 02:16:10.000 --> 02:16:15.000 from his physical features to his to his UH to 2431 02:16:15.159 --> 02:16:19.439 his his tendencies uh as a polymath, to his his 2432 02:16:19.560 --> 02:16:23.800 sense of humor, you know, to his uh sociopathy. I 2433 02:16:24.079 --> 02:16:26.560 I I I I knew people like this, you know, 2434 02:16:26.680 --> 02:16:31.199 and I Uh, this wasn't something remote. I mean, I 2435 02:16:31.600 --> 02:16:35.399 I I'm not playing murder, but I I I lived 2436 02:16:35.440 --> 02:16:39.079 a fairly nightmarish existence for a fairly a long time. 2437 02:16:41.120 --> 02:16:45.559 So there's that. And uh, in terms of the uh. 2438 02:16:45.680 --> 02:16:49.760 The framing device of UH of war day, I will 2439 02:16:49.799 --> 02:16:52.639 I tried to convey to younger people. I mean I 2440 02:16:52.719 --> 02:16:56.440 first became aware of, uh, my kind of civic consciousness, 2441 02:16:56.680 --> 02:16:59.280 my awareness of like the world around me in you know, 2442 02:16:59.319 --> 02:17:04.440 political terms and structural terms. That first came about right 2443 02:17:04.479 --> 02:17:07.239 around the time that of the final sort of crisis 2444 02:17:08.520 --> 02:17:12.040 cycle between the United States and the Worst Uppact. And 2445 02:17:12.200 --> 02:17:14.680 it was quite terrifying, not just to me as a 2446 02:17:14.680 --> 02:17:19.360 little kid, because but but to everybody, you know, and 2447 02:17:19.440 --> 02:17:22.719 people today, they they don't get that what that was like. 2448 02:17:23.479 --> 02:17:28.360 It's it seemed that there was a it seemed as 2449 02:17:28.399 --> 02:17:30.840 if there was nobody really at the helm like here 2450 02:17:31.000 --> 02:17:33.639 or on the other side, and that at any moment, 2451 02:17:34.239 --> 02:17:36.639 h armageddon was possible. 2452 02:17:37.159 --> 02:17:37.319 You know. 2453 02:17:37.479 --> 02:17:41.120 It's it really felt that way. You could feel it, 2454 02:17:41.760 --> 02:17:44.239 you know, you could it was tangible. You know. That's 2455 02:17:44.239 --> 02:17:45.840 one of the reason that so absurd to me, especially 2456 02:17:45.840 --> 02:17:48.680 when I see older people, like a being terrified of COVID. 2457 02:17:48.760 --> 02:17:50.719 It's like, you you know better, you know what a 2458 02:17:50.799 --> 02:17:52.440 real state of emergency is like. 2459 02:17:53.559 --> 02:17:53.719 You know. 2460 02:17:55.200 --> 02:17:57.399 So the framing device I wanted to I kind of 2461 02:17:57.440 --> 02:17:59.479 wanted to convey with that was like because there's like 2462 02:17:59.520 --> 02:18:01.799 an older I think I've got something to offer in 2463 02:18:01.920 --> 02:18:06.639 terms of my own historical memory. But it's also the 2464 02:18:07.920 --> 02:18:11.840 the uh the way in which uh the you know, 2465 02:18:11.920 --> 02:18:18.319 the the way in which catastrophe, catastrophes and apocalyptic events 2466 02:18:19.040 --> 02:18:23.000 truly do shape human destiny, not just in historical terms, 2467 02:18:23.120 --> 02:18:28.440 but in theological ones, and and how these things relate 2468 02:18:28.520 --> 02:18:31.760 to man's ability to create and sustained culture, and how 2469 02:18:31.840 --> 02:18:35.120 culture deals with As we talked about the ability to 2470 02:18:35.360 --> 02:18:40.799 live historically and thus overcome the kind of the kind 2471 02:18:40.840 --> 02:18:45.479 of void of death, that really is kind of what 2472 02:18:45.719 --> 02:18:51.280 the the binding uh moral narrative is of steel Storm. 2473 02:18:52.000 --> 02:18:56.200 You know, it's about people coming to learn to live 2474 02:18:56.360 --> 02:19:00.200 historically again, and the hebres of those who would set 2475 02:19:00.239 --> 02:19:03.200 about to simply preserve their own discrete coshness and definitely 2476 02:19:04.000 --> 02:19:09.479 you know, by transmitting it to infernal machines, or by 2477 02:19:09.639 --> 02:19:13.600 forcing those enslaved by the regimes they serve to uh 2478 02:19:14.280 --> 02:19:20.280 worship them as gods. And ultimately Zartacs, who himself itself 2479 02:19:20.600 --> 02:19:24.399 is an infernal machine, you know, he becomes he goes 2480 02:19:24.440 --> 02:19:29.360 from the demonium pejorative, this object of utter terror to 2481 02:19:29.479 --> 02:19:35.680 whom uh people literally sacrifice youth so that he might 2482 02:19:35.799 --> 02:19:40.360 spare the lot of them. He goes from the demonium 2483 02:19:40.399 --> 02:19:46.000 pejorative to the villainous redeemer, and he liberates man from 2484 02:19:46.159 --> 02:19:49.719 UH from the shackles of the worst tyranny that has 2485 02:19:49.760 --> 02:19:54.879 ever existed. So I believe it's a very positive UH. 2486 02:19:55.639 --> 02:20:00.159 I believe it's a very positive UH story said within yea, 2487 02:20:00.159 --> 02:20:02.360 I'm really ystopian narrative. I'm sorry if that was too 2488 02:20:02.440 --> 02:20:04.440 long wounded. No, no, not at all. 2489 02:20:04.600 --> 02:20:09.120 I that was well said you. I. I those were 2490 02:20:09.200 --> 02:20:11.719 themes that I had picked up from reading it myself. 2491 02:20:11.799 --> 02:20:14.200 But you stated at various syncs. But it's odd that 2492 02:20:14.239 --> 02:20:17.200 you bring up Cormack McCarthy because I have similar feelings 2493 02:20:17.239 --> 02:20:19.719 to him that it sounds like you do. And actually 2494 02:20:19.760 --> 02:20:22.000 I have this in general with kind of things that 2495 02:20:22.120 --> 02:20:26.840 are viewed as dark right, where darkness has a purpose. 2496 02:20:27.159 --> 02:20:29.840 But I actually feel similarly about it to how I 2497 02:20:29.879 --> 02:20:33.159 feel about sarcasm, right, that it's a tonic. Right, it 2498 02:20:33.239 --> 02:20:36.399 can't be everything because if it's everything, it just becomes 2499 02:20:36.440 --> 02:20:39.840 this like gray colorless goo. And look, if everything is 2500 02:20:39.920 --> 02:20:42.479 that pointless, like why am I reading your story? You know? 2501 02:20:42.600 --> 02:20:45.120 Because if there is no redemption and I'm not even 2502 02:20:45.159 --> 02:20:49.159 asking for some type of you know, Hallmark style, you know, 2503 02:20:49.280 --> 02:20:53.120 like overly you know SACS redemption story. But it does 2504 02:20:53.200 --> 02:20:57.239 start to become where nihilism can become almost paralyzing, you know, 2505 02:20:57.319 --> 02:21:01.440 in a narrative, and the ability to redeem someone in 2506 02:21:01.559 --> 02:21:04.920 a story who's truly a terrible person, right like on 2507 02:21:05.079 --> 02:21:08.799 every metric, right, is both interesting to read and it 2508 02:21:08.879 --> 02:21:12.600 is also oddly hopeful in a way, right because obviously, look, 2509 02:21:12.639 --> 02:21:14.719 I I deearly hope that neither you or I ever 2510 02:21:14.879 --> 02:21:17.559 kind of descends to the levels of Billy Wong, Right. Yeah, 2511 02:21:17.799 --> 02:21:21.639 I think that that's probably just mathematically improbable, But all 2512 02:21:21.680 --> 02:21:24.399 the same, there's a little bit of there's a little 2513 02:21:24.440 --> 02:21:27.159 bit of me and him, you know, probably more than 2514 02:21:27.200 --> 02:21:30.239 a little bit. But I think seeing yourself in a 2515 02:21:30.399 --> 02:21:33.920 character who is truly despicable and seeing that I guess 2516 02:21:34.000 --> 02:21:39.440 that truly despicable man become the historical Messiah is deeply inspiring. 2517 02:21:40.079 --> 02:21:41.879 And I think that in much the same way. And 2518 02:21:42.000 --> 02:21:45.520 look like this this is more serious than something like Conan, 2519 02:21:46.120 --> 02:21:49.559 but it offers something similar, right, which I guess is 2520 02:21:49.639 --> 02:21:54.920 a is a technically fictitious but still deeply realistic I 2521 02:21:55.000 --> 02:21:58.719 guess goal to strive for x, especially for young men. 2522 02:21:59.239 --> 02:22:01.559 I'd like to think. So, oh yeah, definitely, yeah, I 2523 02:22:01.639 --> 02:22:05.319 mean that's that's uh yeah, I mean I nihilism really 2524 02:22:05.399 --> 02:22:07.600 is a poison man, and that's why. But at the 2525 02:22:07.680 --> 02:22:11.000 same time, you know, the the people need to not 2526 02:22:11.159 --> 02:22:14.639 be afraid. I mean, there's the world is populated by horrors. 2527 02:22:14.760 --> 02:22:16.959 I mean that's not to say one should lock himself 2528 02:22:17.040 --> 02:22:20.680 for herself in their room and and uh you know 2529 02:22:20.799 --> 02:22:23.600 or that that you know, you should you know, join 2530 02:22:23.959 --> 02:22:26.760 a monastery like figurably or literally, because you know, the 2531 02:22:26.840 --> 02:22:30.479 world is nothing but evil. You know, we we've got 2532 02:22:30.559 --> 02:22:32.559 to live in the world, and it's it's God's will 2533 02:22:32.719 --> 02:22:35.440 that we live in the world. But you know, we 2534 02:22:35.600 --> 02:22:37.920 we've got to be prepared. H We've got to be 2535 02:22:38.000 --> 02:22:41.120 prepared to negotiate. It's it's horrors and it is it 2536 02:22:41.239 --> 02:22:44.840 is full of horrors, but it's it's also full of uh. 2537 02:22:45.639 --> 02:22:50.479 It's also full of beautiful things and the uh the 2538 02:22:50.600 --> 02:22:55.479 capacity to uh for uh for redemption and you know, 2539 02:22:55.559 --> 02:22:59.040 and not not just in the eyes of one's fellow man, 2540 02:23:00.239 --> 02:23:03.079 but also uh you know, through the grace of God 2541 02:23:03.280 --> 02:23:07.280 is ever present. And that's that's part of the uh, 2542 02:23:08.239 --> 02:23:10.479 that's part of the that's part of the point of 2543 02:23:10.559 --> 02:23:13.319 Steel Storm. And and the third book what it'll get 2544 02:23:13.319 --> 02:23:16.840 into is it's hinted at, but it's it hasn't been 2545 02:23:16.879 --> 02:23:20.159 fleshed out yet. You know, the first value more than 2546 02:23:20.159 --> 02:23:22.159 the second one that I just finished. You know, like 2547 02:23:22.319 --> 02:23:27.360 how how civilization is restructured. But I mean after War Day, 2548 02:23:28.360 --> 02:23:32.559 after the veritable destruction of uh of of civilization on Earth, 2549 02:23:33.159 --> 02:23:38.120 you know, within a millennia and a half, you know, 2550 02:23:38.280 --> 02:23:41.799 civilization has returned full bore, and and and and and 2551 02:23:42.319 --> 02:23:46.719 and there's truly a space during civilization where once there 2552 02:23:46.840 --> 02:23:50.680 was a an ashen uh irradiated wasteland, you know. And 2553 02:23:50.799 --> 02:23:55.760 that's uh, that's uh, that's that's constantly hopeful in my opinion. 2554 02:23:55.879 --> 02:23:58.079 I mean, I I'm kind of a space geek, but 2555 02:23:58.120 --> 02:24:01.680 I'm really excited about like the web space telescope because 2556 02:24:01.719 --> 02:24:04.559 I love exole planets, and uh, I'm like a dilaton 2557 02:24:04.600 --> 02:24:06.520 when it comes like astronomy and stuff. But when I 2558 02:24:06.600 --> 02:24:09.079 was a kid at a telescope and even like in 2559 02:24:09.200 --> 02:24:11.200 even in college at a telescope, but you know, and 2560 02:24:11.280 --> 02:24:13.639 I always love looking at stars and things, and uh, 2561 02:24:13.959 --> 02:24:16.920 I was always like really really fascinated by by the 2562 02:24:17.280 --> 02:24:21.159 concept of exole planets and and now you know they're 2563 02:24:21.360 --> 02:24:22.840 this kind of thing is going to be brought into 2564 02:24:23.000 --> 02:24:27.000 uh into uh into view quite literally. And that if 2565 02:24:27.440 --> 02:24:29.319 I mean, if you if you can, if you can 2566 02:24:29.360 --> 02:24:32.440 look at things like that, you know, like uh like 2567 02:24:32.559 --> 02:24:36.319 the uh like the like the data returned like the 2568 02:24:36.440 --> 02:24:39.040 visual data returned by the by the web telescope, and 2569 02:24:39.159 --> 02:24:41.799 not not believe in in in God, you know, the 2570 02:24:41.920 --> 02:24:45.000 creator like I. You're hopeless. I don't know how one 2571 02:24:45.040 --> 02:24:49.360 could think that. You know, this is just accidental architecture 2572 02:24:50.600 --> 02:24:56.280 that's just spontaneously created itself for no Well I do 2573 02:24:56.799 --> 02:24:58.920 in a minute, man, I don't mean to cut these. Yeah, 2574 02:24:59.520 --> 02:25:01.680 but I it's a great conversation man, and I I 2575 02:25:02.239 --> 02:25:04.920 really appreciate you give me the chance to to plug 2576 02:25:05.000 --> 02:25:08.799 steel Storm two. I'm happy to We should do this 2577 02:25:08.879 --> 02:25:11.040 again anytime you wish. Man, it's given me a couple 2578 02:25:11.040 --> 02:25:11.719 of days. Notice. 2579 02:25:11.920 --> 02:25:15.479 Yeah, definitely, Man, I enjoyed it so obviously you know 2580 02:25:15.559 --> 02:25:17.719 I've got my copy. But where can everyone else at 2581 02:25:17.760 --> 02:25:19.879 home pick up a copy of Steel Storm? And where 2582 02:25:19.879 --> 02:25:21.440 should they look for a volume two? 2583 02:25:22.040 --> 02:25:24.479 I would prefer if people would go through Imperium Press, 2584 02:25:24.520 --> 02:25:27.360 because they're dear friends of mine, and UH, I don't 2585 02:25:27.399 --> 02:25:30.680 think anyone needs to give Jeff Bezos their money to 2586 02:25:30.879 --> 02:25:35.239 just go to uh imperium press dot com. You can 2587 02:25:35.319 --> 02:25:37.799 find it on Amazon and there's a few other booksellers 2588 02:25:37.840 --> 02:25:41.440 that can find it through also. Yeah, and I mean 2589 02:25:41.479 --> 02:25:43.799 steel Storm Volume one has been available for you know, 2590 02:25:43.879 --> 02:25:47.920 a over a over a year now, but steel Storm two, 2591 02:25:48.040 --> 02:25:50.879 I'm hoping the manuscript is I mean, the manuscript is done. 2592 02:25:51.520 --> 02:25:56.120 I'm hoping, UH it's gonna it's gonna drop by early autumn, 2593 02:25:56.799 --> 02:26:00.200 you know, uh or September, October, you know, it will 2594 02:26:00.200 --> 02:26:02.920 be available for purchase, available for purchase, and I'll make 2595 02:26:02.920 --> 02:26:06.280 sure everybody is aware when it does drop. You can 2596 02:26:06.360 --> 02:26:09.280 find me. We've got a really active community on Telegram, 2597 02:26:09.399 --> 02:26:11.920 which I think is a great platform and it's you know, 2598 02:26:11.959 --> 02:26:15.959 it's devoid of of ah, the kind of censorship regime 2599 02:26:16.079 --> 02:26:21.799 that is common to some of these other uh other platforms. 2600 02:26:22.559 --> 02:26:26.159 You can find this there at T dot M E 2601 02:26:27.079 --> 02:26:31.520 slash the number seven h M A S seven seven seven. 2602 02:26:32.200 --> 02:26:35.079 And you can find me uh on substack, where I 2603 02:26:35.200 --> 02:26:38.760 post UH long form essays and every other week we 2604 02:26:38.879 --> 02:26:43.959 do a podcast. It's UH real R E A L 2605 02:26:44.479 --> 02:26:50.840 Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. I am I. 2606 02:26:50.959 --> 02:26:54.799 I do periodically back up stuff like this video uh 2607 02:26:55.799 --> 02:26:58.559 an audio that we're doing right now on a gab, 2608 02:26:59.040 --> 02:27:01.440 but I'm not particularly there and I don't I mean, 2609 02:27:01.479 --> 02:27:03.440 God love GAB. I like the people on there, I 2610 02:27:03.600 --> 02:27:06.719 like the people who maintain it, but I just don't 2611 02:27:06.760 --> 02:27:10.159 really like the micro blogging platform. But I do back 2612 02:27:10.239 --> 02:27:14.479 up my own content and that of our friends at 2613 02:27:15.120 --> 02:27:18.879 real Thomas seven seven seven on gab. That's the best 2614 02:27:18.879 --> 02:27:20.280 way to get hold of me. You can always hit 2615 02:27:20.280 --> 02:27:25.559 me up direct through Telegram or by email orion contact 2616 02:27:25.559 --> 02:27:28.760 me and my substack and I again, I can't, I 2617 02:27:28.760 --> 02:27:31.399 can't thank enough for hosting me. Man, this was really 2618 02:27:31.479 --> 02:27:34.239 great and I really hope we can do it against 2619 02:27:34.239 --> 02:27:34.280 so