WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:04.559 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z, 2 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:07.559 Boston's news radio toll right. 3 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.960 Thanks very much, Dan Watkins, and joining us is an 4 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:15.759 old friend and longtime criminal defense attorney here in the 5 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:19.320 Massachusetts area, Phil Tracy Councilor. How are you this evening? 6 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.879 I'm well, Dan, thanks for having me on. 7 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:26.440 Well, I thought tonight might be a good night to 8 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:31.879 spend a few minutes looking at this case that has 9 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:38.320 come out a little evolved, a little differently. And you're 10 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:43.359 a participant. You argue in these courts all the time, 11 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:50.799 so you can you can analyze how the prosecution and 12 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:55.399 the defense are doing in this case. My sense, from 13 00:00:55.399 --> 00:00:59.840 my limited view, is that the prosecution in this case, 14 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:05.000 this second trial so far is more effective than in 15 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.120 the first trial. And I'm wondering if you agree with that, 16 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.599 and if so, what makes you agree with that? 17 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:14.799 Well, I do agree with it, and I'll tell you 18 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.959 there's a subtle thing that's going on, and that is 19 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:26.200 Prosecutor Brennan. The new prosecutor, is seated beside him as 20 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.519 Adam Ladley, who tried the first case for the DA's office, 21 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.400 and he's an excellent prosecutor. But the fact that he's there. 22 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.159 He was there during the first trial, and Brennan wasn't 23 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.640 now the defense counsel. They were there at the first trial. 24 00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:45.319 So there's nothing that Brennan could be surprised at. And 25 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.319 he's doing a very good job, especially when it comes 26 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:57.400 to making the family of the decease part of the thing, 27 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.280 part of the case. In other words, the big flaw 28 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:05.840 for Karen Reed is that she's never expressed any sort 29 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:11.280 of sympathy or sorrow about the death of this man, 30 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:17.599 this officer, who was a fine person who adopted relative children, 31 00:02:18.199 --> 00:02:22.639 relative children, and she hasn't said anything about I'm sorry 32 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.080 he's dead, I'm sorry that the family had to go 33 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.759 through this. I didn't do it, but you know that 34 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:30.439 would have come out a lot better than some of 35 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:37.120 the interviews she had with the television people. She seemed narcissist, 36 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:42.719 angry that she's in this position, and not my sympathy 37 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:43.439 for the family. 38 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.439 Well, it's interesting one of the elements that are being 39 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:54.400 played in this trial are a lot of the interviews. 40 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.759 She had not done interviews before the first trial, to 41 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:02.759 the best of my relation, and that in that period 42 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.879 from the time the mistrial was to clear last summer 43 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.360 to when the trial, the new trial started last month. 44 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.240 The second trial started last month. She did a series 45 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:19.520 of interviews. I mean, really, I wonder why her lawyers 46 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:24.240 were not more judicious. She she did these interviews in 47 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:26.360 a variety. There was one I just saw she was 48 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:28.639 like doing an interview with the guy riding in a car. 49 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.719 And it wasn't as if she was sitting down with 50 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:37.280 you know, Walter Cronk guy or or or someone. She 51 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.599 was sitting down with lots of different people, and it 52 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:44.159 said some intemperate things which are now being played back 53 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.199 in the courtroom. Has that changed? Has that changed the 54 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:48.719 tenor or the trial of your opinion? 55 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:52.520 Oh, it definitely has. I mean it was, you know, 56 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:57.120 everybody can Monday morning quarterback, but I wouldn't have let 57 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:01.520 her speak to anybody other than they the love of 58 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.719 my life is dead. I'm sorry about it. I didn't 59 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:09.080 do it. Now the questions coming out, She's made a 60 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.400 few comments could I have hit him? Which and you 61 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:18.480 put those together with the medical people saying that she 62 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:21.160 was yelling I hit him, I hit him. Could I 63 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.800 have hit him? She said to one interviewer. And the 64 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:29.639 reality is it's harder for the prosecution to move forward 65 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:34.399 with you know, some sort of admission from her. Now, 66 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:40.519 the questions that the jurors have about the misbehavior of 67 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:46.959 the police investigation are somewhat muted this time around because 68 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.720 they were there the first time. They were shocking to 69 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:55.439 the consciousness of the public, and the court of public 70 00:04:55.480 --> 00:05:02.319 opinion did not like the way the police handled this case. Now, 71 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:05.199 most of those jurors have heard about the case. They 72 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.600 know about Procta and his bad behavior, and it's. 73 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.800 Not Proctor was the Massachusetts way state. 74 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.480 Whereas the first jury. I think it might have swayed them. 75 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.560 Proctor was to remind anyone, it was the Massachusetts State 76 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.519 Police detective who had sent some text messages to some 77 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.879 of his friends, and also I guess they were seen 78 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.439 by some other police officers, which were you know, still 79 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:38.480 looking for you know, nude photos. Or he made some 80 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:46.720 pretty disparaging, unprofessional, minimally unprofessional comments. Now I'm not sure 81 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:49.160 that Proctor's on the witness list in the second trial. 82 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:53.480 Oh, I doubt that they doubt that the prosecution will 83 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.199 call them because they had an excellent detective on the 84 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:02.319 stand who basically was stood the barrage of questions from 85 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:07.759 the defense team and he basically I think was trying 86 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.560 to say, look, you know, we just did the job 87 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.439 was supposed to do. And I think that she was 88 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:19.519 vindictive towards him. Now that that's a difficult problem for 89 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:24.360 the defense because that leads to maybe she did back 90 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:29.240 up into him on purpose. I think my guesses and 91 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.519 of course, you know you again, you're an armchair quarterback, 92 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:37.399 so you say, I think she might have in a rage, 93 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.000 you know, tried to scare him or something, but never 94 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:44.680 intended to hit him. But then I think she woke 95 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.480 up and you know, she said where is he? And 96 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:50.920 now it became crazy. You know, there's a lot of 97 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:53.720 drinking going on that night by all the parties. 98 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.480 Yeah, well see, here's here's my take on all of that. 99 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:01.519 And I'll be interested if you agree, disagree whatever. My 100 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:10.879 take is the the the dumb, ignorant texts that Proctor said, 101 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:18.600 totally inappropriate, unprofessional, that drew attention of the jurors away 102 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:23.879 from the critical question is what happened from the moment 103 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:29.439 that John O'Keefe left the vehicle, alighted from the vehicle 104 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:32.680 and was he hit, was he not? Did he walk 105 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:33.680 in the house or whatever? 106 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:34.160 It? 107 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:36.839 It just changed the focus. I mean, no one's going 108 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:40.040 to look at at proctic at practice text and say, boy, 109 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.560 he was a pretty sharp detective, was I mean? Yeah? 110 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.560 Sending dumb, stupid, ignorant text like that. 111 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.680 Yeah, and that just as you say I think it. 112 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:55.199 It caused the jurists to say, well, wait a minute again. 113 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.639 If if you were a good juror and you're listening, 114 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.199 you might say, I think she did it, either voluntarily 115 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:08.199 or involuntarily, but I have reasonable doubt. And reasonal doubt 116 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:11.600 creeps into the case when they start saying, well, the 117 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:14.839 NPS are all in it to frame her, you know, 118 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:19.319 which is how could they possibly put together this type 119 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:24.680 of charade with all these people involved to try to 120 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:29.199 frame it. That's just not real. But the jurors could say, look, 121 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.319 I think she did it, but I got a reasonable 122 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.440 doubt here because of the way they conducted their investigation, 123 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.919 and you know, that's the problem for the prosecution. But 124 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.320 this time around they seem to be The difference is, 125 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:48.480 just as you said, these interviews that she gave to 126 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.600 a lot of different people, she's going to get crossed 127 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.360 up because you're going to say something different one time 128 00:08:54.960 --> 00:09:00.840 and then something contradictory on another interview, and that makes 129 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.840 you look like you're lying or you're hiding something. 130 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.159 Well, Phil, I'll tell you it's We will continue to 131 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.559 follow on on this. I appreciate you checking in with 132 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.120 us every every week or so. H and I just 133 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.120 thought this was a good time to check in on. 134 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.960 It, and I appreciate it is you know, I I 135 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.600 hackned back to UH when we first did these type 136 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:29.200 of things with O. J. Simpson, and that went on 137 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:34.919 and on and on, and the distractions cause the jury 138 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.240 to find them not guilty, no question, there's many distractions. 139 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:41.000 No, the whole, the whole. If the glove does not fit, 140 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.879 you must have quit. I mean the fact that they 141 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:47.080 hand the prosecutor a huge mistake by a prosecutor to 142 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:49.519 hand him the glove and say try it on. What 143 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.480 do they think they're going to do? He was going 144 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:52.919 to try to put it on. I mean, he was 145 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.360 going to expand his head as much as he possibly could. Yeah, 146 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.320 there's no glove here, But there is that that that light. 147 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.000 There's there's some there's some some some some substantial evidence 148 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.559 that have that have that has gone in And I 149 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.480 think that I think you're right. I think that her 150 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.360 own words have probably hurt her more, and that the 151 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:19.600 difference between the two cases are the television interviews. That 152 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:24.120 I'm a huge believer in the court of public opinion, Phil, 153 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:27.240 as as I think I showed in the Salvadi Lamoni case. 154 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.559 But when you're really certain that your guys were that 155 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.960 the people were framed in their case of actual innocence, 156 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.039 well we will see. Phil. I appreciate it as always. 157 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:41.399 You know that, my friend. Thank you. We'll talk soon. Phil, Tracy, 158 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.879 ladies and gentlemen, Boston a defense attorney and give us 159 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:48.840 his perspective. Now, I want your perspective. I don't know 160 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:53.759 if you're following the Karen Reid case as closely today 161 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:59.559 as you did back then number one a year ago. Uh. 162 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:04.360 By the way, the protesters did win a bit of 163 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.159 a victory today in federal court in front of the 164 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:12.440 First Circuit Court of Appeals. They had asked that the 165 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:17.279 buffer zone that they have now been pushed back from 166 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:23.039 the near the courthouse. UH. They took an appeal on 167 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:27.039 that the state Supreme Court upheld the trial judge on 168 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.840 the buffer zone the expanded buffer zone. A single federal 169 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:37.440 District court judge also chose to uphold the trial judges determination, 170 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.519 but the Federal Court of Appeals has sent it back 171 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.799 down to the first Circuit. I guess with the to 172 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.960 the to the first the district court, the appeals court, 173 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:51.840 the first Circuit Court of Appeals has sent the matter 174 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:55.600 down to the district court judge with the instructions of 175 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.639 take a closer look at this, which probably means they 176 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.279 will get to be able to hold their demonstrations a 177 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:06.200 little closer, a little more approximate to the courthouse. So 178 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:07.840 I just want to open these lines up and talk 179 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.240 about the Karen Reid case. Do you think we are 180 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:17.080 going to see a verdict in this case? It supposedly 181 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:23.080 is is if not ahead of schedule, it is, it 182 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:27.080 is close to being on schedule. There were some rulings 183 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:32.399 made today by the trial court judge in the case 184 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:40.679 in which certain statements made by messages text messages were 185 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:43.240 not going to be allowed to be read in to 186 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.960 the to the in front of the jury. Now, again, 187 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.320 the jury probably is aware of all of this, because 188 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:53.080 it's tough not to be. But we like to have 189 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.039 you join us. Give us a call. Six one, seven, 190 00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:00.639 two thirty, six seven, nine, ten thirty are you looking 191 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.200 at this case a little differently? Halfway through? We're about 192 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:08.279 it to halfway point, we're getting close to the prosecution resting. 193 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:12.039 Love to know if you are changing your view or 194 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:14.960 if you look into this case just differently, or maybe 195 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:19.159 you hold on to the opinion that you had of 196 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.559 this a year ago. This time coming back on Nightside, 197 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:23.440 you have the numbers back after this. 198 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:30.919 Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. Night 199 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.840 Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio. 200 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.399 All right, so we're asking sort of an open ended question. 201 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:42.679 And the open ended question and it's one that I 202 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.840 want to hear both from men and women on this 203 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:51.159 is is your sense that this version of the Karen 204 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:56.559 Reid trial is going a little differently than the first version? 205 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:03.279 And Phil Tracy and I identified a couple of areas 206 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.960 where I think there has been a difference. One the 207 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:12.159 comments that she's made to television and network television, and 208 00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:16.960 I guess podcasters which I don't think have pictured her 209 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:22.440 as an empathetic or sympathetic a person. And then the 210 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:27.320 other question is some of this stuff from the police department, 211 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:32.360 it's I don't know that it's going to have as 212 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.919 much relevance to what the jury decides, because it is 213 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.879 the question is not whether or not Michael Procter did 214 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:43.960 a good job as the lead investigator of this case. 215 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:49.279 He may have, he may have done a good job 216 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.240 investigating it. That's really for the jury to decide. But 217 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:57.080 these these ignorant comments that he made, these ignorant emails 218 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:00.639 or texts, that's for him in his ca conscience. I 219 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:04.480 don't know that that really has any bearing irrelevance on 220 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.720 the ultimate question, which of course is guilt innoscence. Six one, seven, two, five, four, 221 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.279 ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, ten thirty. 222 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:17.159 We will be introducing you to reintroducing you to a 223 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.720 guest on addiction and the road to recovery in America 224 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.639 from for people who are addicted to virtually anything. Adam 225 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.399 Vibe Gunton will be joining us. 226 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:27.000 Uh. 227 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:32.399 He is a founder of Recovered on Purpose and Behavioral 228 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.320 Health Partners. In the meantime, let's go to phone calls. 229 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.799 Let's go to Steve and Merrimack, New Hampshire. Steve, you 230 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.120 are first up this hour and Nightsiger right ahead, Hey. 231 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.440 Dan Elyah good Sear, thanks for taking my call. You're 232 00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.559 welcome I've been following this trial and it kind of 233 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.200 reminds me of you know, another high profile trial, the 234 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:58.600 Family Smart case, where she had the prosecut's prosecution bamboozled 235 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.200 because they didn't have a whole lot to tire to 236 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:06.919 the crime until she hung herself with her own words 237 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.120 when they got the wire with the other friend of hers. 238 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.240 This one, I can't believe that Karen Reid would get 239 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.720 up in front of the cameras and talk about the 240 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.840 trial because it doesn't it's not what they want to portray. 241 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.159 From the defense point of view, Phil Tracy, you know's 242 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:27.519 and you were, your point of view is absolutely correct. 243 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:29.840 She should have just kept her mouth shut. She should 244 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:33.000 not have done anything that would have changed the or 245 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.120 altered what happened in the previous trial. From my point 246 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:39.840 of view, I think, you know, right from the get go, 247 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:42.480 I think she was guilty in the last trial, but 248 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.759 not of second degree. I think it's manslaughter, and I 249 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.080 think they just try this whole thing was fueled by 250 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.840 intense drunkenness, and I don't think she knew what she 251 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.919 was doing. I don't think she remembers what she did, 252 00:16:55.399 --> 00:17:00.279 so I don't know. I really think that you know, 253 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.400 this time around, you know, depending on how the what 254 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.960 the context of the jury is, I think they they 255 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:12.240 may come up with a different verdict. I don't see 256 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:14.839 hung jury. I think it's it's not going to be 257 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.880 second degree, though I don't think they can prove it. 258 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:21.440 I think that's it's a higher level, you know, and 259 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.000 all the stuff that went on with the cops and 260 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:26.920 Proctor and all that, you know, had nothing to do 261 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.480 with anything. It's just that they just, you know, he 262 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.359 just made some bad decisions, you know, with his text 263 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.000 and everything, and they're just trying to smear the whole 264 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.440 trial with what he did. But really she's the one 265 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.759 that killed the guy, not him. So I think that's 266 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.680 the way it's going to go down. I think it'll 267 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:45.880 probably be in about ten days to two weeks. 268 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:48.720 Well, I think it's going to go a little longer 269 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.200 than that. And again, I I don't know, you never 270 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.000 know what a jury's going to do. I just think 271 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.519 that the tone is different. I just think the tone 272 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.839 is is different. And I think that the the interviews 273 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:05.519 that she did, I still don't understand why or how 274 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:11.039 her lawyers allowed her to participate in those interviews. It 275 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.960 seems to me that there was nothing to gain there. 276 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:19.440 Maybe she got some publicity. I get that, and she 277 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:24.119 got some attention, but that did make her look good 278 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:26.160 in any way, shape or form in my opinion. 279 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.480 But we'll say, I've never appeared or been on a 280 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.319 jury before. You know, I usually try to get out 281 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:33.880 of it. I don't like to be on that sort 282 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:36.839 of thing. Yeah, but if you're on a jury, it's 283 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.519 the perception of guilt that does work against you. And 284 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.440 she did not sound like an innocent And this girl 285 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.319 is not stupid. She's a very smart girl. I think 286 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.119 that she is trying to do anything she can to 287 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.799 get out of being found guilty of anything. I think 288 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.240 they probably should have plot it down. If I were 289 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.039 her and her attorneys, that would probably done that. But 290 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.079 you know, she's trying to get off this thing scott free. 291 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.160 I don't think she's Scott. I think she did it. 292 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:05.079 There's no one else. 293 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.319 Well, we'll see what We'll see what other people think. 294 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.480 And again, I'm more interested at this point in the 295 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.920 whole question or the whole issue of whether or not 296 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.480 this this trial just has a different feel to it, 297 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.559 just a totally different agree. 298 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.559 I absolutely agree with you and then they keep saying 299 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.559 about somebody dragging you know, O'Keefe out, you know, from 300 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:30.920 the house to the front yard. Yeah, they were too 301 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.640 drunk to do that. I really know I would. 302 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.400 I would think that. 303 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:34.759 You know. 304 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.079 My view is that if that if all of a sudden, 305 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:39.279 you're at a party and somebody there's a fight, and 306 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:42.480 somebody ends up dead, you're going to sober up pretty 307 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:44.960 pretty quickly. And I'm not sure that the smart than change. 308 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.319 It would change what even even if you were inebriated 309 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.799 to the point of not knowing, you know, what day 310 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.920 it is, you would still you know, act differently. I 311 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:58.039 would agree, But I think that she I believe she 312 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.880 will be found guilty this time. I don't think it's 313 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.799 going to be a young jury, but it won't be 314 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.160 the more severe charge. That's my prediction. 315 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:07.200 All right, appreciate you, Carl, Thanks very much. 316 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:10.039 Steve, Okay, thanks Dan one, good night, all right again. 317 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.319 Wide open lines here six one, seven, two, five, four 318 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.000 ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one ten thirty. 319 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:17.519 My focus is, and I'd like you if you could 320 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.640 focus with me, is are you getting a different vibe 321 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:24.400 from this trial than the first? Again, none of us 322 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:28.039 are in the courtroom. Uh, for the entire time. The 323 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.559 only people who are there obviously are the is the jury, 324 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.240 the judge, and the lawyers. We we know that. But 325 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:38.440 the question is the question is is this starting to 326 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.559 sound differently to you? It is to me, it is 327 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.680 to me. Back on night Side six one, seven, two, five, 328 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.200 four ten thirty six one seven, nine three, one ten thirty. 329 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.839 Back on night Side. Right after this, it's night Side 330 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:53.559 with Dan Ray. 331 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:59.039 Hey, Hey, Danny bes Boston's News Radio. You're on night 332 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:03.279 Side with Dan on Boston's News Radio. 333 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.960 All right, let's keep rolling here. We're going to go 334 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:12.039 next to Alex Millers. Alex, welcome, next on Nightside. How 335 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:12.319 are you? 336 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:14.079 Thank good eating Dan? 337 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.839 How are you We're doing? But what's your take? Are 338 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.200 you Are you noticing anything different than this trial? 339 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:20.319 Oh? 340 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:23.880 Absolutely. She has to learn how to use her big words, 341 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.319 you know, because she's you know, I mean, uh, this woman, 342 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.640 even even the way she conducted herself towards uh, you know, 343 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:38.160 Officer Keith's mother. You know, I mean, I don't understand her. 344 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:42.839 You know, she she's not very Uh, she doesn't come 345 00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.000 across as very Oh, I'd say a person that has uh, 346 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:52.920 you know, no emotion, you know, towards towards what happened, 347 00:21:53.160 --> 00:21:56.440 whether she did it by accident or uh, you know, 348 00:21:57.359 --> 00:22:02.519 or she intentionally. I think, you know, I wouldn't find her, 349 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.119 I would find her guilty. 350 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:10.640 Well, it isn't a question of what you would find her, 351 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:15.319 because you're not unasured. You're not unasured. But I just 352 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:19.440 my sense is that the way this case is being 353 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:25.319 put in by the prosecution is much more effectively than 354 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:28.839 the way the case was put in initially by the prosecution. 355 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.240 I know that the defense lawyers have tried to shake 356 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.720 the prosecution witnesses. I don't think they've done a great 357 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:38.799 job on it at this point, to be really honest 358 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:43.119 with you. And my sense is that some of the 359 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:48.359 videotapes that they have played are really devastating videotapes because 360 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.119 it shows a demeanor and an attitude which is not 361 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.519 only well, it's not empathetic towards what happened. No matter 362 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:02.599 what happened, someone lost their life here. John o'ca is dead, Okay. 363 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.319 All the information that I've read sounds think he was 364 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:12.200 a pretty good guy. How no one can ever get 365 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.839 inside the the the interpersonal relationship of a couple of 366 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:19.079 people unless you're part of that relationship. So that's been 367 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:27.640 my experience. And she she does. She comes across not 368 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.200 someone who is going to generate a lot of sympathy. 369 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.839 This is not someone who seems to still be grieving. 370 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.519 And I don't know if the defense will put her 371 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:40.559 on the witness stand. If they do, I think it 372 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:43.119 would be a mistake. And if they do, I think 373 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:46.319 it would indicate in their mind that maybe this case 374 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.039 is for them in jeopardy. But we'll see. 375 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.799 So so she I. I was just going to ask you, 376 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.480 since her defense team is, you know, uh is supposed 377 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.839 to be outstanding, why would they allow her, I know, 378 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.359 your furious guests to you know, do all these interviews 379 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.720 with ABC and all the other networks, you know, and 380 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:16.279 it probably jeopardized her. You know, Uh, I guess uetting 381 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:19.079 getting a fair trial. 382 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.200 Well, she's going to get a fair trial. That that 383 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:24.119 has nothing to do with a fair trial. I mean, 384 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.359 a fair trial does not necessarily lead to an acquittal 385 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:28.799 or conviction. A fair trial leads to a fair trial. 386 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.200 She made the decision that she wanted to talk in 387 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.799 the media after she had, you know, gone through that 388 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:40.519 first trial with a hung jury. And maybe the fact 389 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:44.000 that some of the jurors were saying that they actually 390 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.359 had concluded on two of the charges, that they were 391 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.160 ready to acquit her, maybe that gave her some false hope. 392 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:54.279 I don't know. I criticized the judge last summer, and 393 00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:57.680 I felt that that the judge should have followed up 394 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.960 with the full person of the jury when they came 395 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.400 back and said we're hung. She should have said, does 396 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.519 that mean you're telling me you hung on all charges 397 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.880 or on one or two of the charges? And at 398 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:12.599 that point that answer would have, I assume, responded elicited 399 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:16.000 a response which might have said, no, we're only hung 400 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:19.920 on one charge, or we've reached a consensus on two charges. 401 00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:21.720