1 00:00:07,679 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to the One on one Podcast with your host 2 00:00:12,519 --> 00:00:42,679 one A Yalla, Welcome back. 3 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,079 Speaker 2: To another episode of the One on one Podcast. I'm 4 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:47,679 your host. As always, make sure the follow the show 5 00:00:47,719 --> 00:00:51,200 on social media at the One on one Podcast pretty 6 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,200 much all social media platforms. Make sure to check out 7 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,759 the Patreon, Patreon dot com, slash the one Podcast www 8 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,799 dot tj OJP dot com, all the links down in 9 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,840 the description. And today joining us for the very first time, 10 00:01:07,359 --> 00:01:09,519 Larry Hancock, sir, how are you. It's a pleasure to 11 00:01:09,519 --> 00:01:09,840 meet you. 12 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,719 Speaker 3: I'm good, it's great to be here and thanks for 13 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:13,239 having me. 14 00:01:13,879 --> 00:01:16,159 Speaker 2: Yea, sir? Can you let people know where they can 15 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,719 find you, Larry, if this is the first time they've 16 00:01:18,719 --> 00:01:20,439 heard about you, and where they can find your book, 17 00:01:20,439 --> 00:01:25,000 which we will be covering today, the Oswald Puzzle reconsidering 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:26,480 Lee Harvey Oswald. 19 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Probably the best word to see all my works 20 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,480 and I've done some twelve fourteen books over the last 21 00:01:33,519 --> 00:01:37,599 few years is on Amazon's author page, So just look 22 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,159 for Larry Hancock on books on Amazon. The books are available. 23 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:47,079 They also puzzles available pretty much everywhere, including Walmart's website, 24 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:50,079 which is kind of interesting, so you can find it anywhere. 25 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,319 But the other place to see what I'm doing is 26 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:56,840 I have a blog on WordPress, so it's Larry Hancock 27 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,319 and WordPress. Do a search for that and you'll find me. 28 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,159 Speaker 2: Awesome. And I'll post the links down the description after 29 00:02:03,159 --> 00:02:05,920 the show so people can check it out and check 30 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,719 out the book. I actually I was telling you I 31 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:11,759 haven't talked about the jfk assassination on my show because 32 00:02:11,759 --> 00:02:15,400 it's one of those conspiracies. Because it is a conspiracy. 33 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:16,240 I mean, at the end of the. 34 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 3: Day that. 35 00:02:18,199 --> 00:02:23,439 Speaker 2: The governmental hey, the CIA and the FBI both investigated 36 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:25,879 that the CI and the FBI had no wrongdoing, so 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,680 we're good to go, like that sort of thing. I 38 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:31,639 don't find that interesting. What I find interesting is what 39 00:02:31,719 --> 00:02:34,759 happens after the fact. So we have the event, which 40 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,000 was obviously the jfk assassination that we know for a 41 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:41,560 fact happened, right, he was taken out. Now the whole 42 00:02:41,599 --> 00:02:45,840 conspiracy is who actually did it, how did he pull 43 00:02:45,879 --> 00:02:50,439 it off, motivations as to why he would do it, right, 44 00:02:50,879 --> 00:02:54,639 and of course the patsy or the fall guy that 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,319 took the hit for this, which we will never truly know. 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,280 The actual truth is Lee Harvey Olswalk. How many years, Larry, 47 00:03:03,319 --> 00:03:06,639 have you been at it? Researching the JFK assassination and 48 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:08,360 topics related to this. 49 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 3: I started in the mid nineties, so over thirty years 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:19,039 on JFK, but not just JFK, basically political actions in 51 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,240 the sixties and early seventies where there's JFK, MLK, RFK. 52 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,240 I've written on all of them, plus basically the national 53 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:33,240 security that's my wheelhouse, national security activities during the Cold War. 54 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,400 So yeah, over over three decades, and as you say, 55 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,639 also down lots of rabbit holes. If there were rabbit 56 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,759 holes to be found, I fell in them. 57 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: Is there any in particular that you enjoy the most. 58 00:03:45,879 --> 00:03:53,199 Speaker 3: Larry, I would say I would say researching and writing 59 00:03:53,479 --> 00:04:00,840 about real American history, deniable operations, covert activities, partially because 60 00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:03,560 we know a lot about that now. I mean, everybody 61 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,199 says you're only gonna know what really happened, like fifty 62 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,360 years after the fact. History. History is never immediate, right. 63 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:12,400 Historians write about the past, and I'm a history buff, 64 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:16,480 I'm a document buff. So it's satisfying to go back 65 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:20,639 to something like Vietnam or something like the Tonkin Gulf, 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,240 things that were very real to me, that's my period 67 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,800 of time, you know, and find out now what was 68 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,519 really happening that we didn't know at the time. So 69 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,040 I would say that's probably the most satisfying for me, 70 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,839 especially when you find it and find proof of it 71 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,040 in the records. 72 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: So it's safe to say that aliens that didn't take 73 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,600 JFK out, would you. 74 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 3: I'm pretty good on no on know on that one. 75 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Yeah know on that one. And it wasn't the relatives 76 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,480 of the crew of the Thresher submarine that blamed them 77 00:04:52,519 --> 00:04:56,000 for that. And yeah, there are a few others like that. Yeah. 78 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,560 Out of all of those, we can write at least 79 00:04:58,600 --> 00:04:59,040 some off. 80 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: How has this research putting in so much time? And 81 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,399 there are people who write their doctors who dedicate their 82 00:05:07,519 --> 00:05:11,600 entire lives to studying one particular field of medicine historians 83 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:17,120 that you know, like yourself, that you're studying this niche areas. 84 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:22,120 How has researching at least the JFK assassination shaped your 85 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,959 worldview if any. 86 00:05:23,759 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: At all, It really has shaped my worldview. And you 87 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:30,399 bring up a very good point, and it's a point 88 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:34,839 that often gets lost in the conspiracy community, and that is, 89 00:05:34,879 --> 00:05:38,519 if you've studied just one piece of history, you tend 90 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,959 to become fixated. But all history is situational. All needs context. 91 00:05:44,439 --> 00:05:46,720 If you don't know, if I tried to study JFK 92 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:51,920 without knowing how the CIA really operated, I would lose, 93 00:05:52,079 --> 00:05:54,600 or how the FBI operated. You've got to know how 94 00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:59,399 they're organized, how they're structured, what their standard operating practices are. 95 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,560 So without that kind of context, you go down these 96 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,920 rabbit holes and never come back. So for me, that's 97 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:11,680 that's been really the biggest thing that I've become aware 98 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,879 of and learned is that you you can't you can't. 99 00:06:15,399 --> 00:06:17,639 You can't slice it too Finally, it's kind of like 100 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,279 painting with too broad a brush. If you do that, 101 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,839 you may you're never going to get the right answer. 102 00:06:22,879 --> 00:06:25,439 It's kind of like again painting, You've got to be 103 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,800 able to do broad brush in detail to make it right. 104 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,519 Speaker 2: How does someone go about writing a book like this 105 00:06:33,639 --> 00:06:37,399 that's very heavy on documents? You know, I want to 106 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:41,319 focus on what what what the documents and what the 107 00:06:41,959 --> 00:06:45,480 facts say from the people who are providing it. And 108 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,000 a follow up question from that, how do you not 109 00:06:48,199 --> 00:06:52,720 let your thinking be tainted by the conspiracy realm of 110 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,759 things and how do you not let your mind wander 111 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,360 as you're doing this research. 112 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 3: Boy that that is a real channel. But the first 113 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,920 thing you have to you have to look for what 114 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:07,439 put it this way. You have to look for what 115 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:10,160 you find, not what you want to find. The thing 116 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:14,199 that I'm always most pleased about is if I'm finding 117 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:17,519 something that I didn't expect, I know I'm on the 118 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,639 right track. If I find what I was thinking was there, 119 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,480 and only that, you know, I'm afraid I'm driving myself. 120 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:28,519 So when I'm actually going down a trail and find 121 00:07:28,519 --> 00:07:32,079 something unexpected, I think I'm going in the right direction. 122 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,800 And you've got to do that with documents, which means 123 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,040 that you have to look at not just one set 124 00:07:37,079 --> 00:07:40,560 of documents. For example, I've found a lot of things 125 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,959 about CIA operations and practices in general looking at State 126 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,560 Department documents because State department has their version of what's 127 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,560 going on, and if they think the CIA is doing 128 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,600 something stupid or they'll write it down. Same for the 129 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,639 CIA versus the State, same for military intelligence. If you 130 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,399 look at multiple sources in the documents describing the same event, 131 00:08:04,879 --> 00:08:08,720 it becomes very informative. So you've got to bounce this 132 00:08:08,759 --> 00:08:12,120 stuff against each other. You can't just go down one trail. 133 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,279 And then that requires a huge amount of document work, 134 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,120 you know, tens of thousands of pages and learning how 135 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,920 to read the documents one of the things that's been 136 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,680 most valuable for us. And you might be surprised. People 137 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,279 are surprised kind of like, well, you've got documents, but 138 00:08:29,399 --> 00:08:30,959 how do you read them? And the first thing you've 139 00:08:30,959 --> 00:08:32,320 got to do is you've got to be able to 140 00:08:32,399 --> 00:08:36,879 crack the names in the documents, the pseudonyms, the aliases, 141 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,240 the organizations. If you don't go do your homework and 142 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,320 are not able to find that, you won't really even 143 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,519 know what you're reading because it will talk about something 144 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,440 going on, but you don't know who conducted it, who 145 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,000 they're connected to. Just one of the things that's allowed 146 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,039 us to crack a lot of stuff in regard to 147 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,480 JFK assassination is being able to basically what we call 148 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,960 busting pseudonyms, find out the names that are used in 149 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,000 the documents to describe real people, who were they and 150 00:09:08,039 --> 00:09:11,879 what are their aliases? So we contract them ensu who's 151 00:09:11,919 --> 00:09:16,519 really involved and what their networks were long winded answer 152 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,080 to it's a lot of slogging. 153 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:20,879 Speaker 2: Do you do it by yourself there or do you 154 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,320 have a team that helps you out with this? 155 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: Usually I work with well, usually just a small group 156 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,279 of say like half a dozen people that really get 157 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,000 to be expert in you know, how do we read 158 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,200 the CIA operations files out of the Cuban branch in Miami? 159 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,200 You know, in the whole world, that's a small group 160 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,399 of people, maybe a dozen people. And then to pursue 161 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,759 any particular line of thought, it's it's usually two or 162 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,840 three people that really dig in, which was why in 163 00:09:48,879 --> 00:09:50,840 many of my books I do it with a co author, 164 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,000 And often the co author is really is really the 165 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,960 document expert with the Oswald puzzle, David Boyle, and is 166 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,600 the fellow who had the had the intensity to essentially 167 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,720 construct an organization chart of CIA operations in Miami. Now 168 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,639 you've got to imagine that if I talk about slogging 169 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,240 for me, it's even more for him. So it's it, 170 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:17,639 and we talk with each other. We share information, like 171 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,919 on the cryptonim busting, you know who ran across it? 172 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,440 A real kind of an interesting thing is there that 173 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,279 aliens and krypton ms were So we're done to confuse 174 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,399 the Soviets. I mean, they're not done to confuse us 175 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,279 and the documents, but they actually get to the point 176 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,679 where they confuse the readers. So a CI officer will 177 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,720 pencil in a little annotation going, oh, this is really 178 00:10:40,799 --> 00:10:43,639 this person or true name or whatever, kind of like, Okay, 179 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,440 we got them. And those notes were never supposed to 180 00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:50,559 be on the documents, right, somebody's just trying to help themselves. 181 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:53,080 When you start finding those, you make progress. 182 00:10:54,159 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: So a lot of these documents are safe to say. 183 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,279 They're encoded in some sort of way in case information 184 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,600 gets leaked to foreign power, that way they won't be 185 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,879 able to read it. But then at the same time, 186 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:06,919 as a layman, a person who is not in the organization, 187 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,399 you can sometimes take things for face value and then 188 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,799 you're led off a completely wrong track. 189 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely if and you will make wrong assumptions. You 190 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,000 maybe assume it's a different organization. One of the most 191 00:11:23,039 --> 00:11:27,120 fascinating things about him is to learn the distribution, who's 192 00:11:27,159 --> 00:11:31,519 getting what information, who's copied, what offices or what copied, 193 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,200 what individuals or what copied. What's happening to the control 194 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,440 of the information And in CIA, one of the things 195 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,200 that's become very helpful to us in regard to le 196 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,000 Avrey Oswald is to find out who is getting information 197 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,679 on him at various points and times and who has 198 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,639 been withhell from compartmentalization can tell you a lot. And 199 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,720 what you find out in Oswald's case in particular, at 200 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,879 different points of time, certain parts of the CIA are 201 00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:03,600 not telling other parts of the CAAA who ask about him. 202 00:12:04,039 --> 00:12:08,240 They're holding back information. And there's only one real interpretation 203 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,440 for that, and that the organization holding the information is 204 00:12:13,279 --> 00:12:16,960 using not him as an agent, but using information about 205 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:21,600 him for some purposes. So even even distribution can be informative. 206 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 2: So not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,759 But can the documents be trusted Larry at all? 208 00:12:29,879 --> 00:12:33,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, they can be trusted. Here's the thing is, the 209 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,759 documents we're talking about are day to day operational documents. 210 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,039 If people could not do their day job without them, 211 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,120 and we know based on them and things that happen. Next, 212 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 it's like things that were discussed in the documents did 213 00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:52,799 happen people that discussed You know, you can reality check 214 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:57,919 the documents. Now. It is true that on occasion fake 215 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:02,919 documents were creative, but usually the strange thing is the 216 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,240 fake documents that we have found are generally created outside 217 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:12,080 agencies for some other purpose, you know, to fool someone. 218 00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:16,200 We've even and it's very infrequent, but we've run a 219 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,559 couple of cases where someone outside an agency will do 220 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:25,480 a document, know enough to do a good document, and 221 00:13:25,519 --> 00:13:28,720 then actually go into the National Archives and plant it. 222 00:13:29,399 --> 00:13:32,120 The good news is, though, you can track that down 223 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,960 because the National Archives, doing their job, has a record 224 00:13:37,039 --> 00:13:39,720 of all their intake, so they can go back and 225 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:41,720 you and we work with them and it's kind of like, 226 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,440 did you guys ever really take this document in? Nope, no, 227 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,639 we didn't. Aha a case of a particular case of 228 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,559 that is there's a document that circulates about every three years, 229 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,759 seen it like eight times over the decades, and it's 230 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:03,039 a document saying that Oswald was actually briefed by the 231 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,559 Office and Naval Intelligence for going into Russia, and it's 232 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,039 supposed to be a correspondence between you know, like senior 233 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,399 people at both agencies. Well, now, first of all, that 234 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,200 would never be written down. That's not standard operating practice 235 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,440 to write an inner agency membo after the assassination to 236 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:26,200 confirm this sort of thing, you know, doesn't happen. But 237 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:30,639 as it turns out that document never existed in reality, 238 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,279 it was planted to support somebody's books, somebody's story, whatever. 239 00:14:36,679 --> 00:14:39,120 But it can be checked, so we have devices to 240 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,559 check that sort of thing. And people people often ask me, 241 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,399 it's like, well, if somebody makes up a series of 242 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:50,360 fake documents, would would is that illegal? And the interesting 243 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,000 thing is, if there's no actual crime involved, no fraud, no, 244 00:14:54,639 --> 00:14:57,200 you know, it's sort of like if if it's not 245 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,440 a real government document, there's nothing illegal about circulating it. 246 00:15:02,639 --> 00:15:07,399 If it was never classified, never a real document. You know, 247 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:10,840 I can the FBI can investigate it. And we know 248 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,919 instances where the FBI or the Air Force or someone 249 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,159 has investigated a document and go it's bogus, and it's like, well, 250 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,039 you're going to prosecute them. Well, it's not a crime 251 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,639 because they didn't profit from it. They didn't. They just 252 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:31,519 used it for self agran astisement or promoting themselves or 253 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,960 gaining influence. So it's not a crime per se unless 254 00:15:36,159 --> 00:15:38,440 you can't prove it really is part of a fraud. 255 00:15:40,279 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 2: That's actually pretty amazing and kind of scary at the 256 00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:47,799 same time, because it's just making me want to trust 257 00:15:47,799 --> 00:15:52,639 the government less because Hey, who's to say. I mean, 258 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:55,399 that just opens up a whole can of worms. If 259 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,120 you're able to insert information that, hey, it's not a 260 00:15:59,159 --> 00:16:03,360 crime technically, and they nothing happened. That's crazy, Larry, like, 261 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:04,320 how that could happen? 262 00:16:05,159 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: But we can find it. I guess that's the good news. 263 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:12,519 You you ask, is it possible the government does check itself. 264 00:16:12,679 --> 00:16:15,960 I mean I think that's like the FBI can investigate. 265 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,240 They will call in document experts. We're at the point 266 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,559 I have friends who are experts enough to say, you know, 267 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,840 is the record keeping in this document? It's a serial 268 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,840 number ride every you know, look at this document? Is 269 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,080 it right or it's wrong? So the government can investigate 270 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,799 those sort of things. NARA controls it's archives and does 271 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,320 a good job. Like I say, it was, it was 272 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,960 easy to check that Oswald document. It didn't require a 273 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,559 lot of time. It's just like Nara, this thing is 274 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,120 floating around and people are saying, it's real. Did you 275 00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:51,159 ever hold this document? No, So there's you have to 276 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,480 be cautious about, and frankly, you have to be cautious 277 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,000 in the more sensational claims like that you mentioned earlier, 278 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,360 Like one of the frauds that I was talking about 279 00:17:01,399 --> 00:17:03,159 had to do with the aliens at JFK. 280 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: I mean, is there really a document saying that. 281 00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:10,079 Speaker 3: There are there are actually documents saying that the government 282 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,160 knew all about alien contact and had alien contact from 283 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:19,480 nineteen forty seven. It's called the Majestic Series of Documents, 284 00:17:20,039 --> 00:17:25,079 and that JFK was going to expose this and and 285 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,319 it's yeah, it's a whole thing in and of itself, 286 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,519 so but you know, we've learned how to deal with 287 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,240 that sort of thing. But yeah, you bet, Yeah, I'm 288 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,200 sure you thought it was joking and where he's going, 289 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,720 it's just a pain and a rear another alien JFK. 290 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,799 Speaker 2: Thing I was, I was kidding. I've heard I've heard 291 00:17:42,839 --> 00:17:45,680 that before, but I didn't know it was an actual thing. 292 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,519 You know that there's actual documents and an idea that 293 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:51,839 it could happen that And this is how little I've 294 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,839 looked into the JFK assassination. And it's kind I'm kind 295 00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:57,680 of doing it backwards with your book because it's more 296 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:00,400 on you know, you focus on more of Lee Harvey 297 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,039 Oswald and you don't really get into the events of JFK, 298 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,799 even though you have written about them. And I remember 299 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:11,039 back in I think I was still in in high school, 300 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,440 I read one of the many many books on the 301 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:18,079 magic bullet. I think at one point where that again, 302 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,400 that's a whole nother rabbit hole, and I don't even 303 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,400 I don't ever think I finished it, but again that 304 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,599 that's the whole thing. But I want to get your 305 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,200 because I heard you. I watched a few of your interviews, 306 00:18:27,599 --> 00:18:30,279 and I heard you talk about memory and how memory 307 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:33,279 can be tainted. And right off the bat in the 308 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,279 forward by Rex Bradford, he gets into what the Attorney 309 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,160 General wrote the White House, right, the public must be 310 00:18:42,279 --> 00:18:45,599 satisfied that Oswald was the assassin, that he did not 311 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,079 have any did not have confederates who are still at large. 312 00:18:50,599 --> 00:18:55,480 Uh So the public must be what it say here, 313 00:18:55,559 --> 00:18:59,480 must be satisfied, like, Hey, this is what we're dishing out, 314 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,160 this is what you're going to accept. But I've heard 315 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,680 you talk about how memory itself can be tainted very easily. 316 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:09,960 Can you talk a little bit about that, because it 317 00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:14,480 seems that history relies a lot on memory. And then 318 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:18,559 if the people writing that history, if they're doing their 319 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,279 due diligence, how you guys are doing double checking and 320 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,680 fact checking all these documents. If they're not doing good 321 00:19:23,759 --> 00:19:27,079 job doing that, they weren't there to experience what happened. 322 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:27,599 You know. 323 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 3: There have been a lot of really good studies done 324 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,799 on that, and what we learn is say, the experience 325 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:41,640 of a witness is good for well, it's good until 326 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,559 they start talking to other people. If you can catch 327 00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:48,279 them within an hour or so after the event, take 328 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:51,720 a statement, get as much detail as you can, you're 329 00:19:51,759 --> 00:19:55,559 pretty good. But once they start circulating and talking to 330 00:19:55,599 --> 00:19:59,440 other people or listening to the news, they become less 331 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,000 and less liable over time, and they essentially absorbed these 332 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:08,720 things you're talking about gaining the narrative. People can absorb 333 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:13,720 the narrative, just like because through media, through people, through 334 00:20:14,279 --> 00:20:17,279 We have people that first had witnesses within the first 335 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,319 hour or two who describe things that they later go 336 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,160 back and it stuns me. It's sort of like I've 337 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,759 seen statements taken later by the Warrant Commission that says, well, 338 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,240 I heard more than three shots, but I must have 339 00:20:31,319 --> 00:20:33,920 been wrong. Wait a minute, why do you think you 340 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,680 were wrong? Because the narrative was that there can only 341 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,160 be three shots, and they actually say this in interview, 342 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,319 it's like, I know what I saw, but I must 343 00:20:44,319 --> 00:20:48,880 have been wrong. Well, no, that's not very useful. I'll 344 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,720 give you a plastic example of that and how things 345 00:20:53,039 --> 00:20:56,279 can go bad, not from the JFK assass nation, but 346 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,640 from the RK Asas nation. There was a young woman 347 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,440 who named Santa Serrano, who saw people run away from 348 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,920 the RFK assassination, heard them talk about actually laughing about 349 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,960 the fact that they'd managed to kill RFK. She became 350 00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:19,119 a prime witness in that case. Ultimately she was disregarded 351 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:24,599 because of a bogus polygraph test that was administered. The 352 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,799 net was that the line was that she had been 353 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:31,160 brought into a pantry and sat down with other witnesses, 354 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,279 and she'd picked this whole story up from other people, 355 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:38,240 and it was just it was not true. The problem was, 356 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,759 for the official story is an assistant da out of 357 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:47,359 Los Angeles had talked to her within minutes before she 358 00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:50,960 ever went anywhere else, and actually ended up writing number 359 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,759 of letters saying she told him exactly what she said 360 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,759 later before she could ever have been contaminated by anyone else. 361 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,720 You have to be able to parse through that stuff. 362 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,119 And they ignored her and they ignored him. After two 363 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,759 or three letters, he just kind of gave up. And 364 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:14,799 this isn't associate DA. But we've also learned in lots 365 00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:20,000 of experiments, for example, a classroom of students, a professor 366 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,400 can perform and has done, perform experiments in a psychology 367 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,480 class of having something unexpected happened at the part of 368 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,799 the front of the room, in front of the whole class. 369 00:22:31,759 --> 00:22:35,720 Then he has them right down what they saw that day, 370 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,200 open up that thing at the end of or having 371 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,200 them write down at the end of semester what they 372 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:45,759 recall seeing. Open up their letters, and they're going, well, 373 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,720 I must have made a mistake when I write the 374 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,640 The bottom line is interview witnesses on aspects of detail 375 00:22:54,799 --> 00:23:00,400 of an event weeks, months, years after the fact is 376 00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:04,359 very problematic and just get you in trouble. I'm surprised 377 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,279 now that the new Congressional Committee on Disclosure is going 378 00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:13,279 to Dallas to interview witnesses. You know, it's way too late. 379 00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:17,240 You know they if you go back to their first 380 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:20,359 day state, let's take those. Don't interview them now. You're 381 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,079 not going to get You're going to get overlays. 382 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: They really went back because one of the main things 383 00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:30,240 I saw keeping up with the news is that I 384 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:34,440 think Trump unclassified a ton of new documents. Have you 385 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,599 had a chance to look through those? Have you your 386 00:23:36,599 --> 00:23:39,599 colleagues looked through those? Is there any new information that 387 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,519 would perhaps change the outcome of this book at all, 388 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,960 or is there any new revelation that has come from 389 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:46,400 that at all? 390 00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: Well, what's what has happened is he wrote a directive 391 00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:54,480 that literally said, and then the interest of disclosure. Within 392 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,720 fifteen days, I'm appointed a team under the Director of 393 00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:04,839 National Intelligence to come up with a plan to release documents. 394 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,599 Supposedly they submitted it to the White House. We've seen 395 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,160 nothing about it. Within forty five days. There was to 396 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,079 be a plan to address MLK. The first plan was 397 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,359 just JFK, MLK and RFK. We've seen nothing of either 398 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,400 of those. We've see no DO documents. And one of 399 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,720 the troubling things is if you look at like the 400 00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:28,160 fine print in that directive, it also says that the 401 00:24:28,279 --> 00:24:33,359 order will not override the authorities of the agencies involved, 402 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960 which would still leave them the option of redacting information. 403 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,680 It doesn't require them to unredact anything that's already been released, 404 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,440 you know, which is Okay, what I really want is 405 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,559 all the black off the stuff I can already see, 406 00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:51,400 because I know that's what I need. It doesn't so 407 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,359 so far, it really hasn't led to anything concrete. Hopefully. 408 00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:58,839 You know, there are people that I know, and we're 409 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,200 reaching out to this group, say hell, we know where 410 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,079 to look, we know what to look for, and we 411 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,720 actually know important things that have been withheld. Let us 412 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,160 help you. So far, no response yet, so no, we've 413 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,039 not seen anything new yet. Separately, this Congressional Committee on 414 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:21,240 Disclosure is going to start holding hearings on a whole 415 00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:24,400 suite of subjects, but all it's been out so far 416 00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:28,039 is literally that they're going to Dallas and interview witnesses, 417 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,799 and my expertise would literally say, don't you know there 418 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:35,119 are better things that you could be doing with your time. 419 00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:38,720 I've talked to most of those people myself years ago, 420 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960 so you know, lots of us have that's already on record, 421 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:44,759 and I still wouldn't consider it good as compared to 422 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:48,000 the first day statements. See what they said on TV 423 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,920 that day and use that you see. 424 00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: How this could fuel more conspiracy Larry where it's kind 425 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,119 of dodgy, very secretive. Do you what are your thoughts 426 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:05,000 on maybe someone who is very influential that had a 427 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,319 hand in this conspiracy, because that's what it is, right, 428 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,079 they're conspiring against a JFK. I'm sure that there are 429 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,359 various reasons one could come up with to want to 430 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,359 take out a political figure like that, Right, Ideological differences, 431 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:28,400 political differences. Anyone can talk a crap about a political 432 00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:32,839 person for whatever reason. Now to actually act on something 433 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,880 like this takes it to a whole another level. Right, 434 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:39,839 But why the secrecy? Do you think that maybe there's 435 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,759 somebody who's still alive who had like a hand in it, 436 00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:45,440 who was influential, and they don't want them to know 437 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,720 and what we see in our lifetimes. 438 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: I don't think the secrecy has anything to do with that. 439 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,759 Strangely enough, from what I know on the road that 440 00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,279 I have gone down to some extent, I think the 441 00:26:58,319 --> 00:27:01,799 people that were involved that are still living were quite 442 00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:05,079 it was. It was an very personal act of act. 443 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,440 They considered to be patriotic. I don't think they would 444 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,640 be embarrassed by it now they would be actionable. Yeah, 445 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,480 that's another story, But that's not the issue. The issue 446 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,559 is the fact that at the time, during you know, 447 00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:25,480 a twelve month period, agencies and the president of the time, 448 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,599 the president acted to pre empt and investigation of conspiracy. 449 00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:33,599 We know that you saw some of that in the 450 00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:36,640 first part of the book, because we we tried to 451 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:39,200 revisit a little bit of why we why we know 452 00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:41,839 that was so egregious, you know, why we can say 453 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,000 factually that the investigation wasn't done that should be done. 454 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,079 It was focused entirely on Oswald as a loan nut, 455 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:52,200 even even though no motive could be found, you know, 456 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,519 and they had to cherry pick that positioning. But there 457 00:27:55,559 --> 00:28:01,880 were agencies that were involved with Oswald that we're doing 458 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:07,160 operations built around Oswald, that would not want it. It's embarrassing. 459 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,000 I mean, it's compromised. It's not a big deal now, 460 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,960 should it really shouldn't be a big deal now with 461 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,880 what we know about covert and deniable operations for the 462 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,160 last sixty years, But still there would be people that 463 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,799 would consider it, you know, embarrassing and quite frankly, you know, 464 00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:28,759 these people did not do their duty. They did not 465 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,960 do their duty and sharing information. The FBI didn't reveal 466 00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:36,119 everything it really had, you know, we know the FBI 467 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:41,079 actually destroyed a couple of documents relating their contacts with Oswald. 468 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:46,279 We know that the CIA actually investigated and lied about 469 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,119 investigating and said, no, we didn't do it. Cuban connections, 470 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:56,480 connections to their people, to anti Castro people, to Cuban operators. 471 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000 They did that investigation because they had leads that said 472 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,519 that could have been in play, but they didn't report 473 00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:07,079 that to anybody, and when asked, they said, no, we 474 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,039 never touched it. Investigating the assassination was the Warrant Commission. Now, 475 00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:17,160 you talked earlier about trust. You know at the time, 476 00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:19,559 if we'd have known that in nineteen sixty five or 477 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,480 nineteen seventy, it would have accrued a lot of distrust. 478 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,200 You know, Can you trust agencies to disclose their own operations? 479 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,000 And I think they're still following on that rule, you know, 480 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,000 like we have to trust our agencies, so we don't 481 00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:39,160 want them to embarrass themselves. I think this is more 482 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,200 about trust and embarrassment than anything else. Is there anyone 483 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,160 that's going to suffer from disclosing that information after sixty 484 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,079 seventy years, I don't think so. The agencies might suffer. 485 00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. And then 486 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:02,680 obviously that would a cascade towards a public opinion towards 487 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,799 them and towards the people, And obviously they can't have 488 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,440 that happening. But there seems to be a pattern of 489 00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:12,359 you know, assassinations or attempts where they've had a previous 490 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,480 contact with the suspect, right, the latest one that really 491 00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:18,799 I was going to ask you, if this were to 492 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,240 happen today, do you think somebody could have gotten away 493 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,880 with it? You know, do you think Lee Harvey would 494 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,079 have gotten away with it in today's terms? And I 495 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,480 think he would have done it and would have still 496 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,880 got caught, because if you look at the most recent one, 497 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,880 right with Trump, I mean, what really came of that? 498 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,440 And you know, it's it's few and far between the 499 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,680 assassinations and attempts to have happened throughout history, right, Abraham Lincoln, 500 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:44,559 all these other guys. You can even put MLK in there, 501 00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:49,279 but it always seems like as soon as it happens, boom, 502 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:53,119 here's the guy, we got it solved, and then something 503 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,319 happens to him, where hey, dead men tell no tales, right, yeah? 504 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,039 Speaker 3: What? And you know, I I asked that same question myself. 505 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,440 It's kind of like is the JFKs said. And in 506 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:08,200 terms of the national response, you know, the establishment of 507 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:10,559 response if you were that, That's what we called it 508 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:13,200 when I was younger. The establishment. Okay, I know there 509 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,799 are new names for it, but the establishment response is 510 00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:18,720 always the same. And I went back and I did 511 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,359 a book called Surprise Attack, literally to tackle that question. 512 00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:26,920 What do you expect after an event of national consequence, 513 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:34,119 whether it's an assassination, assassination attempt, something historical called like 514 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,599 the attack on the Liberty or the Pueblo, both of 515 00:31:37,759 --> 00:31:40,480 you know, one of which really started the Vietnam War, 516 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,400 to a higher level, what happens, And the point is 517 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,599 the rush. There's always a rush by any administration, doesn't 518 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,039 matter what party, what politics, whatever. The knee jerk reaction 519 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,799 is always to seize the narrative and to essentially dim 520 00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:01,000 the consequences, like we don't people want people going off 521 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:06,559 half crocked. Johnson did not want people you know, Oswell's 522 00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,440 associated with Cuba and as a Castro supporter, Castro did it. 523 00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:15,000 We need to invade, right. You know, if you're in charge, 524 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:18,839 you don't want those kind of reactions. If you're we 525 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,960 have an instance in the MLKA assassination of where the 526 00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:27,880 evening of the attack, the Attorney General and the head 527 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,759 of the FBI went on the air and said, we 528 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,799 know who did it. It was one person. There's no conspiracy, 529 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:38,480 and it had nothing to do with race. Now, everybody 530 00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:42,279 I was there, you know, it's like, no, no, we don't. 531 00:32:42,519 --> 00:32:45,319 But why did they say that when they knew nobody 532 00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:48,200 would believe it. There's this there's this temptation to ice 533 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,119 seze the narrative, and and once you sees the narrative, 534 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,960 how do you escape from it? How do you go 535 00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:58,559 back and really investigate it after you've told every I'm 536 00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,079 not even sure that there's evil intent. It's just like 537 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,319 there's this teptation. You do it, and then how do 538 00:33:04,359 --> 00:33:07,839 you recover? You know, oh, ignore what I told you, 539 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,799 trust me next time. It's not going to work. Well. 540 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,160 I think they trapped themselves each and every time. And 541 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,839 do we hear more about it, even if there's investigation, 542 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,799 We don't hear anything about it other than what's going 543 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,319 to end up supporting that original narrative, because otherwise you 544 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,880 lose trust and nobody Republican, Democrat, whatever, whoever's an administration 545 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,440 always wants trust. Now, unfortunately they tend to lose it 546 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:41,359 because of just those things. But you know, that's human behavior. 547 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,200 That's another story entirely. 548 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: So speaking of trusting the narrative and taking their word 549 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:53,000 for it. What are some of the more common misconceptions 550 00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:56,480 about Oswalt? Since this book does focus on Oswald the 551 00:33:56,519 --> 00:33:59,319 most one of the ones that I fell for, which 552 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,400 apparently there's no evidence for, is that he was a 553 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,319 CIA asset. Well, what are some of the more common 554 00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:08,679 ones that most people probably believe that turns out to 555 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:09,280 be bullshit? 556 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 3: Well, there's two. It's kind of like, there's two limited, 557 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,159 very focused views of Oswald. The Warrant Commission wanted you 558 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,800 to see him as asocial or anti social, no interreactions 559 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,199 with people, no friends, a loner, violent, you know, a 560 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,280 radical activist. This guy's a radical communist. None of that's true. 561 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,159 And how do we know that's not true. We know 562 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,440 it by looking at the long pattern, like several years 563 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,960 of Oswell's dialogues, friends, writings. By nineteen sixty three, he 564 00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:49,320 was writing a lot of monographs and his worldview. He 565 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,320 was talking to people and he would tell people. For example, 566 00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:55,599 he would tell people he thought Kennedy was the person 567 00:34:56,079 --> 00:35:00,400 who could talk with Kruse Chef and dial down the 568 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,880 Cold War, resolved the issue of possible nuclear warfare. You know, 569 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,400 Kennedy is even talking to them about going to the 570 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,679 Moon with the Russians, the joint program, you can, and 571 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,239 with his friends. I mean, this is supposedly the Warrant 572 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,079 Commission wants to see you as antisocial and a loner. 573 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,880 And he's got friends that friends in the military, friends 574 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,920 in Russia. Even he's dating in Russia. He proposes it, 575 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,280 turned down, proposes again, gets married, has two children, you know, 576 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:36,360 And so this is a person who's also in media 577 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,159 a lot TV and radio and New Orleans. And when 578 00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:43,039 they brought him on and it's actually a radio host 579 00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:47,480 tried to get him to speak out against JFK over Cuba, 580 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,639 OS will pull back and said, basically, no, it's not 581 00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:57,239 President Kennedy. It's years of administration policy towards Cuba that 582 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,760 I oppose. There's no reason that we should not relations. 583 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:03,519 So you know, if you look at all that detail, 584 00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,199 you see that the Warrant Commission was cherry picking. Now, 585 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,599 on the other hand, us conspiracy folks have our own 586 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:13,840 blame to carry because we have tended to want to 587 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,440 simplify FID matters and make Oswald a tool of the 588 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,800 bad guys, whoever the bad guys were. I mean that 589 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,360 ranges from him being some kind of a contract killer, 590 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,599 like just taking an assignment from the mob, you know, 591 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,960 like okay, somebody decided to pick oswe will to goo 592 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,119 shoot the president, or being a tool of the CIA, whatever. 593 00:36:36,599 --> 00:36:39,800 But when you study his personality and his beliefs, and 594 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,840 he's very much an idealist, more of an idealist in 595 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,559 politics than you could imagine, and more practically took orders 596 00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:51,559 from nobody. This is a guy who in the Marine Corps. 597 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,199 You know he gets he gets the classic thing in 598 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,679 barracks because he's not clean enough and he gets soapd down. Okay, 599 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,039 if you've been on the military you might know what that. 600 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,760 You know, it's not pretty. You know, he ends up, 601 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,639 doesn't like the duties he's getting to sign too much KP. 602 00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:11,039 He confronts the n c O in a club and 603 00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:12,880 throws a drink on the n c O. You know, 604 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:17,159 this is not a guy. He's not passive. You know, 605 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,840 if he feels he's being picked on, he will speak out. 606 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,599 But he's not violent. He's just you know, just not passive. 607 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,519 But we want to the conspiracists tend to take to 608 00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:32,119 him as an order taker and like have moved him 609 00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:35,760 from taking totally different sets of orders to multiple groups 610 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,880 over a period of time, which is totally out of 611 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,079 character for Oswell. Who who Oswell is the only one 612 00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,840 I know who ever actually conducted a strike in a 613 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,159 Soviet factory and got his boss into trouble because he 614 00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:52,960 didn't like the bureaucracy. So he said he was just 615 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,280 going to stop going to meetings and and it's like, oh, 616 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,079 that's the Oswell. I know, this is not the oswol 617 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:01,039 that you're just going to call up and say, oh, 618 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,280 assassinate the president and he'll just toddle off and do it. 619 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 2: So he seemed like pretty much a regular guy, a regular, 620 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:14,000 you know, clean cut guy that was just trying to survive. 621 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,639 Do you have are you familiar at all? And maybe 622 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:22,039 we can get a little conspiratorial ry where the catcher 623 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:24,960 in the Rye connection with Oswald allegedly was his favorite book. 624 00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,960 Is there any evidence to prove that? 625 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,599 Speaker 3: No, I wouldn't say there's no evidence to prove that, 626 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,920 and I would offer up the other in contrast to 627 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,400 Catcher and to Raye. If you want to get into 628 00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:40,119 Oswell's reading material, which we know a lot about from 629 00:38:40,159 --> 00:38:44,800 his library cards, and you know he's a different person. 630 00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:48,119 I would step back and say, not the not the 631 00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:52,039 Catcher in the Rye image, but he is. He's a 632 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:56,159 guy that I knew in nineteen sixty eight. He's one 633 00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:58,320 of his best friends. In sixty three called him a 634 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,360 proto hippie. He's a political idealist. He's a in one expense, 635 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:08,119 he's he's liked socialism, parts of socialism, he likes parts 636 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:11,719 of capitalism. He wrote a monograph about how you bring 637 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,159 the two together. Yes, you have healthcare, you have education, 638 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,800 but you need this for capitalism. For you know, he's 639 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,039 that kind of guy, and he will he will speak 640 00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:27,920 out on his beliefs. He's not quiet. As a teenager, 641 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,599 he would challenge his friend's parents in the barracks. You 642 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:34,760 know he's going to be the oddball. I've talked with 643 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,239 Marines who said, yeah, we had guys like that in 644 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,320 the early sixties and the late fifties. They were just characters. 645 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,239 And in nineteen sixty eight, I would it would be 646 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,039 the guy I was standing by it said Okay, let's 647 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:51,360 go occupy the student union building. And I would go, so, 648 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,920 what is that going to accomplish? And he would go, 649 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,119 I know, but it'll be fun. I don't know. I 650 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:01,039 don't want to make him passive. He was. He was 651 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,159 an average guy in a way, but he was very 652 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,519 unique in other ways, very intelligent, extremely well read. His officers. 653 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:15,360 Marine officers said that he could he would discuss geopolitics 654 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,960 with them at their level. And this one guy had 655 00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:25,119 been a graduate of the Foreign Services at Georgetown. So Oswell, 656 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:29,440 Oswell was different. I guess that's I wouldn't call him 657 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,519 an average guy, but I wouldn't. He's not average in 658 00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:36,559 a necessarily an evil sense. He's just not your average guy. 659 00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:39,920 The marine officer said, Look, you know, and in training, 660 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,639 the other guys are just worried about when the first 661 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,800 leave is going to be, where to find the bars 662 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,000 and the girls, and Oswell is in his bunk reading. 663 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,599 You know, He's not like the other marines. 664 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 2: So would the sleeper sellar Manchurian candidate theory be out 665 00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:59,760 the window, because that's one that you hear a lot 666 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,920 of about. Where again, this catcher in the ryal where 667 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,920 he was program you said, programmed to kill and they 668 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,880 gave him the string of words that made him snap. 669 00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:14,320 Because if you are convicted, which he was never technically convicted, 670 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,559 is that correct? And they never actually convicted him. If 671 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,960 you have the cameras on you, obviously he said he 672 00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:23,440 was a patsy. Have you been able to decipher that 673 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,400 what exactly he meant by that? 674 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, And we deal a lot with that in the book, 675 00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:31,880 in the latter part of the book as to what 676 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,840 he was talking. Literally, actually the full statement he made was, 677 00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:40,320 I don't know what's going on. They they haven't told 678 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,559 me what I've done. I've been arrested because I worked 679 00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:48,239 in that building, you know, the school book depository I worked. 680 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,920 I did work in that building, and I was in Russia, 681 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:53,400 And because I was in Russia, They're going to make 682 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,559 me a patsy. It was all about his past. And 683 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,760 literally we maintain in the book that Oswald had no idea, 684 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,880 had a totally different agenda about what was going to 685 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,239 happen on November twenty second. He was following his own 686 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,440 agenda that had nothing to do with JFK, and he 687 00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:15,480 had no idea how he'd been framed. One of the 688 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,719 things it has to be pointed out is the police 689 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,519 had him in custody for almost forty eight hours. They 690 00:42:22,599 --> 00:42:25,960 never showed him the rifle that they took into evidence 691 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:31,000 and said, lea's this your rifle used to kill the president? 692 00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:33,719 Is this not your rifle? Never ask him that question. 693 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,960 They never showed in the bag that was represented that 694 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:39,440 he used to carry it in the depository and said 695 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,840 did you make this? Did you bring this this morning? 696 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,280 Never showed him that. They did show the bag to 697 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,159 the guy who drove him to work, who under polygraph 698 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,119 exam said, no, that's not the bag he took to work. 699 00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,920 It was a little bag. It was like a sandwich bag. 700 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,000 It's not that bad, and they showed him the real bag. 701 00:42:57,159 --> 00:42:59,840 They did not show Oswald the real bag. Some of 702 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,119 the stuff is so stupid it's hard to follow. And 703 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,880 if you don't know that sort of thing, the evidence 704 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,320 looks a lot better than it really was in fact. 705 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,719 But now I will say another thing that we do 706 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,840 is look very closely at his behavior after being taken 707 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:20,599 into custody. Oswald never when he when he did something 708 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,639 radical like going to Russia, wants to see what it's 709 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,360 like in Russia. When he's leafletting in New Orleans and 710 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,159 gets into fire. He's never quiet. He will say why 711 00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:34,119 he did it and what he believes and you know 712 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,840 what's going on. He will take credit for it, every 713 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,920 opportunity to do that. In Dallas after the assassination, he 714 00:43:42,039 --> 00:43:46,679 leaves no notes, you know, nothing like, no claims, no agendas, 715 00:43:47,039 --> 00:43:50,760 totally denies everything, tells his brother and his family that 716 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,880 they have no that they're making this up. There's no evidence. 717 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,199 Don't worry about it, it's okay. His main concern with 718 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,320 his wife is did you get the baby the shoes 719 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,599 she needs? Did you get June the new shoes? You know, 720 00:44:03,679 --> 00:44:05,920 we've got to take care of the family through this become. 721 00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,119 We feel he had no idea how he had been 722 00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:11,840 framed and how he had been set. 723 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 2: Up, Larr, Could that have been code that he was 724 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,119 talking in when he was saying all those things. I'm 725 00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:21,679 guessing this was in letters to his wife. Could that 726 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:22,880 have been code? Maybe? 727 00:44:23,519 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 3: Oh that was actually personal, that was actually in person stuff. Again, 728 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,199 one of the answers to that question, and that's a 729 00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:36,159 good question that we look at from an historical standpoint, 730 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,239 is continuity. Is this the way Oswall always talked is 731 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,119 this the language that you know? Is this consistent? Is 732 00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:47,840 there continuity there or is it an anomaly? Now, there are 733 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,840 anomalies in his behavior on November twenty second, and in 734 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,280 the book we offer an explanation for those what he 735 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,079 thought was going to happen. But one of the one 736 00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:02,880 of the big keys to this is these expressions in 737 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,039 this terminology with his wife, with his family was very consistent. 738 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:09,400 It was the sort of thing that he had been 739 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,239 talking about two weeks before. A week before people had 740 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,480 heard him talking that way. He had visited his wife 741 00:45:17,519 --> 00:45:22,440 the night before discussing getting the family back together. In fact, 742 00:45:22,679 --> 00:45:24,480 one of the reasons he went to talk to his 743 00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:28,000 wife was he was tired of visiting Chu staying with 744 00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:31,320 had just had a baby, staying with the pains. He 745 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,199 wanted to get them back together. Now, if you want 746 00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,119 a dose of reality, this tells you that this is 747 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,079 real and not something coded. Because what he asked her, 748 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,719 he asked her, you know, I'm tired of this. I 749 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,079 want to get the family together. I want to move 750 00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:50,480 you into an apartment tomorrow. I want to come back immediately. 751 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,760 And what she said, as a matter of record, is look, 752 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,440 I got a brand new baby, I got a small child. 753 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,960 I'm staying with the lady as a worshiping machine. You 754 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,519 know how many diapers we're going to be dealing with 755 00:46:03,639 --> 00:46:06,960 for the next few weeks. Tell you what you keep 756 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,119 your job, save some money, get an apartment with a 757 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,320 washing machine, and we'll talk after Christmas. You know, that's 758 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:19,599 real world stuff, that's not code. That is okay and OsO. 759 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,440 So he's going to face the dilemma we talk about. 760 00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:24,239 He had a choice. The reason he went to see 761 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,000 her is he had a choice. He had a choice 762 00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,119 of doing something he'd been wanting to do for some months, 763 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,440 which was going to Cuba. We're thinking he was going 764 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,679 to Cuba or moving them back together, and when she 765 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,039 said let's put it on hold, we think he went 766 00:46:39,559 --> 00:46:42,400 one particular way. So to answer your question, I don't 767 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,039 think there's any cod I think it's very real world. 768 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:46,719 I think we've got some real history. 769 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 2: My conspiratorial mind sometimes bleeds through, Larry, and I just 770 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,480 can't help but look at it from a different perspective. 771 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,960 Maybe they were speaking in code or something, right, because 772 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,719 you just hear so many things, and you said earlier 773 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,559 that conspiracy heads they want to kind of sort of 774 00:47:02,599 --> 00:47:05,800 simplify thing and kind of just ram it all down. 775 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,440 It's like this was it that, that's that. But this 776 00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:12,280 is such a complex story when you really come to 777 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,320 think about it, and I wanted to get into maybe 778 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,039 you know where some of these things come from as 779 00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:22,360 far as hey, he was a CIA asset, he was 780 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,480 a sleeper cell, he was a man cheering candidate, blah 781 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,079 blah blah, all these things. What are your thoughts on 782 00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:31,480 the James Files James Files guy, because he was one 783 00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:34,159 of the ones that he has I'll be honest, like 784 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:40,119 he has a very compelling story, like he is telling everything, 785 00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:43,280 but then he's telling things a little bit too good, 786 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,880 almost like he's telling a story and wanting to take 787 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,519 credit for essentially, you know, one of the I don't 788 00:47:50,559 --> 00:47:52,800 want to say, one of the greatest events of history, 789 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,800 but one of the most infamous events within history, because 790 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,960 they took out a president and this guy's telling telling 791 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,000 you about how many cigarettes he smoked and how he 792 00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:08,599 left the bullet casing on top of the fence, and 793 00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:12,079 he's making this whole spectacle out of it. Are these 794 00:48:12,119 --> 00:48:16,679 people planted to spread misinformation or what's his deal? And 795 00:48:16,679 --> 00:48:17,480 what are your thoughts on. 796 00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 3: Him, I can. I can give you that that's one 797 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000 of the rabbit holes, and I could give you two 798 00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:26,119 or three rabbit holes like that. That that, you know, 799 00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:28,880 took me two or three year. Yes, I did I 800 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:34,320 buy the James Files VHS videotape the moment it was available. 801 00:48:34,519 --> 00:48:37,760 Yes I did. Okay, yeah, okay, not a day I've 802 00:48:38,199 --> 00:48:41,400 I've been suckered way too much. We won't look at 803 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,480 that side of the expense reporter, it's like how much 804 00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:47,760 money did you spend on what? But long term, the 805 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,039 thing is I came to know. I came to know 806 00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:54,159 two people. One is the person who took the James 807 00:48:54,559 --> 00:48:58,239 File story to the media, and I came to know 808 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,239 him over time, and he altered RECANDID and explained in 809 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,280 detail how he had been had by files and what 810 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:10,239 files its motive was. I was good friends with another 811 00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,320 lady who's deeply into assassination research for years, who had 812 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,960 been in correspondence not only with files, but with several 813 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:24,239 women who were files as pen pals in prison files. 814 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,960 You would not know it from just his book and 815 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,880 from what you're talking about. He was a long time 816 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,679 he was looking, I mean quite frankly bored he's in 817 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,880 for decades, right, He's got along, he's got a long 818 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,440 thing to serve. He needs something to occupy himself. He 819 00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:46,440 becomes a pen pal with lots of women, gets engaged 820 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,840 to several of them, actually marries one of them, and 821 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,360 gets conjugal visits. Okay, all right, that's that's that side 822 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:58,000 of the ledger. He and my friend is corresponding to 823 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,320 multiple of these women's at the same time because they're 824 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,320 telling her what's going on with Files in her life. 825 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,000 The other fellow was telling me how he's he talked 826 00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:11,079 with the FBI agent that brought Files to him that 827 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:15,119 kind of surface File's story. Files convinced him about it, 828 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,360 and this guy bought into it a couple of that Actually, 829 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,320 File's story was sold twice to different people for different 830 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,840 amounts of money, and taken to market twice by a 831 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,679 different account. These people gave me a lot of insight 832 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,159 because they tried to. First of all, they had to 833 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,159 verify files at one level, like the FBI guy had, 834 00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:41,079 and then they dug deeper. And it was only after 835 00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:43,880 they dug deeper that they started see it falling apart. 836 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:47,679 And one of the things that Files light about many 837 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,119 things that were provable when you started digging. It sounds 838 00:50:51,119 --> 00:50:53,679 great up here, But one of the things that really 839 00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,880 exposed him was the fact that he constantly said he 840 00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,599 knew nothing about the Kennedy assassination and had no way 841 00:51:00,679 --> 00:51:03,679 of knowing anything about the Kennedy assassination. Well, as it 842 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,239 turns out, the prison library had a series of books 843 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,920 on the Kennedy assassination, and there's nothing that James File 844 00:51:11,039 --> 00:51:14,519 said that couldn't be found in those jfk. Early books. 845 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,679 So he did have source material. Now part of his 846 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,119 story was he part of the Chicago mob. Absolutely, but 847 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,559 there have been a whole host of people, not a host, 848 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,639 that's an exaggeration. There have been eight or nine people 849 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,920 like this who have parlayed parts of their past into 850 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:41,159 stories for their own purposes. Sometimes there were political purposes. Sometimes, 851 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,480 like for Pile, File, File started writing poems. He started 852 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,079 writing poems about the Kennedy assassination and how he was 853 00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:52,400 a good guy in the Kennedy assassination. He wrote songs. 854 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:59,360 I mean sorry. But in any event, long, long story short, No, 855 00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:02,400 File did not prove to be credible in the long run, 856 00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:05,719 as many of these people did not. I think a 857 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,159 couple of them. I'm not going to condemn them, because 858 00:52:08,199 --> 00:52:10,760 I think they might be very sincere with their story, 859 00:52:11,199 --> 00:52:14,119 and their story came to be for certain personal reasons. 860 00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,239 We have to deal with that. But I'll have to 861 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,239 admit only by seeing the evolution of a lot of 862 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,599 these stories over the decades and knowing people and contacting 863 00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:27,559 people on the inside of the stories, it's the only 864 00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:29,760 way that you know, I was able to deal with 865 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,719 the stories because they all look sound on a certain 866 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,920 level because there's always a certain amount of truth. It's 867 00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:40,639 it's kind of like standard disinformation. This information doesn't work 868 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,039 unless there's some element of truth in it. 869 00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 2: No, absolutely, And it always seems like with a lot 870 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,119 of these big stories, like I said, they have people 871 00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:54,920 who you know, with disclosure and with everything else, that 872 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,400 are there to kind of steer how you said the 873 00:52:57,920 --> 00:52:59,559 I forgot what you called it earlier, where they take 874 00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:02,880 the initial to take the narrative over and it's like 875 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,880 it just muddies the waters up even more because this guy, 876 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,159 he's you know, linking the CIA. He said he was 877 00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:11,960 hanging out with Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, the day 878 00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:15,280 the day prior to that, you know, they're they're driving 879 00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,480 around blah blah blah, and it makes me think of 880 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,360 I believe it was Jack Ruby when uh, there there 881 00:53:23,519 --> 00:53:25,960 there is it like an interview or something. They're filming him, 882 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,639 and he's like, we're never gonna know the truth, right, 883 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,760 the truth will never see something I'm paraphrasing see the 884 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,239 light of day or something like that. And that's very enigmatic. 885 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,239 That's a very mysterious thing to say, and ask, oh 886 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,840 why not. It's like, because does it does it contain 887 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,440 higher people? Does it involve higher people? And he says yes, 888 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,119 you know, almost like again this grand conspiracy and one 889 00:53:46,119 --> 00:53:49,199 can only think, Larry, how far up the line does 890 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:49,599 it go? 891 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,079 Speaker 3: Well? And with Jack Ruby, I mean spent a much 892 00:53:54,159 --> 00:53:57,199 longer amount of time on Jack Ruby than James Files. 893 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,480 You're getting much closer to the truth. Yeah, So just 894 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:03,400 to kind of push past that, Yes, Jack Ruby was 895 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,039 as part of the conspiracy. He was brought into the 896 00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:09,639 conspiracy by Johnny Roselli. He started out with a very 897 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,320 low level role and then after oswelld was captured, which 898 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,519 was not part of the plan, he was given a 899 00:54:15,519 --> 00:54:18,679 totally new role and things become much more complex. So 900 00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:24,519 agreed some of the stories just have a nugget of truth. 901 00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:27,760 They do have truth in them, and you've got to 902 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,880 deal with them. So I don't want to pretend, you know, 903 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,480 I mean, there is a conspiracy there and you have 904 00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:35,000 to track it down and certain people who have elements 905 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:41,760 of the truth. Ruby's truth actually emerges through analysis of 906 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,639 Ruby doing things and behaving in ways that make no 907 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:50,840 sense unless he was actually associated with the conspiracy over 908 00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:56,679 some seventy two hours before and after the assassination itself. 909 00:54:57,639 --> 00:55:01,440 I spent an agonizing amount of detail looking at micro 910 00:55:01,519 --> 00:55:05,320 analysis of his movements, of his phone calls, of his behaviors, 911 00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:08,679 and there's certainly a case to be made for his 912 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:14,119 involvement his prior Jack Ruby. Most people would probably shocked 913 00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:16,480 to know that he was so deeply into Cuban gun 914 00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:21,000 running and during the revolution that he was actually used 915 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,079 by the FBI for a period of over year as 916 00:55:24,159 --> 00:55:29,880 a provisional criminal informant. They provided him equipment for tape recordings. 917 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:36,199 It's very likely that his contribution to that investigation was 918 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,800 used in the conviction of a gun running effort by 919 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,880 a fellow out of Houston named McCowan. Long story there, 920 00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,840 but Jack Ruby's Jack Ruby had part of the real story. 921 00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:51,360 He certainly didn't have the whole story. He just knew 922 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,519 a little bit of it. But he's very dangerous, which 923 00:55:55,599 --> 00:56:00,239 is why basically what happened to him happened to him him. 924 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,719 He was turned into an unreliable source. And we we 925 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,880 won't get too far into it, but no, I do 926 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,719 not think the visit by Jolly West, who is the 927 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:20,199 CIA LSD specialist, to Ruby in jail on multiple occasions, 928 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:27,199 and the true observable fact that Ruby became more and 929 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:31,119 more irrational after those visits up to the comment that 930 00:56:31,199 --> 00:56:36,119 you're talking about is your circumstance. So yeah, I can 931 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,880 do conspiracy, honest. 932 00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 2: That's wild to see. I again, this is this is 933 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,519 why you're the expert, because I had no idea about that. 934 00:56:43,639 --> 00:56:48,239 But that's pretty crazy that again we're dipping into the 935 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,760 conspiracy round with things. How do you think it would 936 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,400 have because this seems like such a clear cut case. 937 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,800 It's so convenient, right, they get Lee Harvey Oswald, he's 938 00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,440 coming out what was he coming out of a police 939 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,840 stationers something or other and then boom, Jack Ruby gets 940 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,440 him and that's all she wrote. 941 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was clear cut, and anybody and we know 942 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,639 so much deal in detail about it. It was so suspicious. 943 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,239 The biggest problem the Warren Commission had, honestly with the 944 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:25,079 whole suppression of information was Jack Ruby. The Warren Commission, 945 00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:28,559 surprisingly enough, other than the FBI, who they didn't trust, 946 00:57:28,679 --> 00:57:31,559 and we know that from their own documents, had only 947 00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:36,239 two investigators. Those two investigators were sent to Dallas to 948 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,199 investigate Ruby and his connections, his connections to the police, 949 00:57:40,719 --> 00:57:45,159 his other connections. They were all over Ruby, especially his 950 00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:50,199 crime connections in his history with people like Rosselli and 951 00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:55,360 with you know, these other things. The Warren Commission actually 952 00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:59,639 dismissed them because they were pointing towards some connections with 953 00:57:59,639 --> 00:58:02,639 the police East and Ruby that might have resulted in 954 00:58:02,679 --> 00:58:06,920 Oswald's death that nobody wanted to see. They dismissed them. 955 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,360 Those two guys said, Okay, we'll leave, we'll resign. Actually 956 00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,000 we'll go away, but we want to promise from you 957 00:58:14,079 --> 00:58:17,760 that when you come down to Dallas to question Jack, 958 00:58:18,159 --> 00:58:20,440 we got the right questions. You've got to call us 959 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,840 back and let us participate. The Warrant Commission did not 960 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,119 call them back. Ruby was Ruby could have unraveled at 961 00:58:29,199 --> 00:58:34,159 least one part of the conspiracy, and and it was 962 00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:38,000 very dangerous and people that knew that were very dangerous. 963 00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:41,480 People that knew. I mean, you look at the fact, 964 00:58:42,079 --> 00:58:44,000 and this is hard to take. If you want something 965 00:58:44,039 --> 00:58:46,599 that's hard to take is up to a certain point 966 00:58:46,639 --> 00:58:52,480 in the day of the assassination, Rufe is chipper. He's cheerful, 967 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,760 he's fine. You know, he's good. Everybody that meets him, 968 00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,000 it's the same old Jack Ruby. Right after the assassination, 969 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,119 he goes back to his club. He's told he's gotten 970 00:59:03,199 --> 00:59:07,239 several calls from somebody unnamed. Then he makes a call 971 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,519 and there are a couple of calls exchanged with the 972 00:59:09,559 --> 00:59:13,280 guy in La. It was a known contact of John 973 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:19,000 Roselle with his circuit. And after that Jack falls apart. 974 00:59:19,559 --> 00:59:22,280 He goes to his sisters and he starts throwing up, 975 00:59:22,599 --> 00:59:25,320 and from then on over the weekend, he's a totally 976 00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:29,880 changed person. The obvious reason, he's been told that what 977 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,079 he was doing, his role has changed. You know, it's 978 00:59:33,159 --> 00:59:35,880 kind of like Jack, you know what the game is like, Yeah, 979 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,400 you were you were locating some dirty cops for us 980 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,880 to use. You were doing a good field guy. You're 981 00:59:42,159 --> 00:59:44,639 not minor role. It's kay. You got paid some money. 982 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,079 We even know if banker said he came into some money. Okay, 983 00:59:48,599 --> 00:59:51,239 but you know what the rules are, right Jack, You 984 00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:54,119 either do this. We've got a loose end that wasn't 985 00:59:54,159 --> 00:59:56,519 supposed to be there. You take care of it, or 986 00:59:56,559 --> 00:59:59,760 you know your sister, Jack love You love your sister, right, 987 01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:01,679 JACKI you know what's going to happen if you don't 988 01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:07,280 do this, And that's what happened. He had no choice 989 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,280 even afterwards when you talk about motive. Oswald had no motive. 990 01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:18,840 Ruby had no motive for killing Lee Harvey Oswald. And 991 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,320 it's supposed to be spontaneous, right, but you know that's 992 01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,679 not gonna fly. It's just he didn't even go see 993 01:00:25,679 --> 01:00:27,960 the motor Cave, right. It's not like he's a fan 994 01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:32,440 of JFK. He's not like so he didn't even go 995 01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:36,840 see the Motor Kve. But suddenly he's concerned enough to 996 01:00:37,079 --> 01:00:39,760 kill Lee Harvey Oswald. So they asked him what his 997 01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,719 motive was. He said, well, I really wanted to make 998 01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:45,119 sure that Jackie didn't have to come back to Dallas 999 01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:50,079 for a trial. Jack is not known for being a 1000 01:00:50,159 --> 01:00:53,159 sympathetic you know, Jack is the guy who bounces people 1001 01:00:53,199 --> 01:00:57,239 out of his club, kicks people. He's not known for 1002 01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,719 being a sympathetic individual or ever having talked about Jackie 1003 01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,239 Kennedy or Jack Kennedy. Later on we found out his 1004 01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:09,159 lawyer gave him that motive, and his lawyer admitted, you've 1005 01:01:09,199 --> 01:01:11,719 got to have something to tell people, Jack, I can't 1006 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,679 just go to court without you here. 1007 01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 2: Try this to sympathize with that. 1008 01:01:16,559 --> 01:01:20,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so like it's it's stupid, but it's better 1009 01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:20,880 than nothing. 1010 01:01:22,239 --> 01:01:26,480 Speaker 2: WHOA So the actual so the person that might how 1011 01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:31,000 you said, hold the actual key here is actually Jack Ruby. 1012 01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:36,079 But again he conventely died of a pulmonary embolism in 1013 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:42,239 sixty seven. And who made the call? So he had 1014 01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:47,360 this minor role and I guess he they They gave 1015 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,639 him a promotion, right, they gave him a promotion midway 1016 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,559 he obviously didn't want to do it. And it's it's 1017 01:01:55,599 --> 01:02:00,679 it's who has the power to was it governm was 1018 01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:03,880 it mob? Was it the illuminati? Larry? Who was it? 1019 01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:05,840 Do we have any idea who it could have been? 1020 01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 3: Well? I have talked to and worked with We know 1021 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:14,800 the here's what we do know that the we know 1022 01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:16,880 that the call to this guy in LA And by 1023 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,840 the way, Jack Ruby's explanation and this guy's explanation of 1024 01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:23,880 what did you talk about the afternoon of the assassination 1025 01:02:24,679 --> 01:02:27,360 when the entire country is talking about the killing of 1026 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,320 the president, this guy and Jack Ruby, we're talking, ostensibly, 1027 01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,920 according to them, about Jack Ruby's dogs and the fact 1028 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:40,119 that you know, Jack might be providing you want to 1029 01:02:40,159 --> 01:02:43,639 talk code in a conversation. Dog, Now we can code 1030 01:02:43,719 --> 01:02:47,119 in a conversation. Uh yeah, I'm you know, you need 1031 01:02:47,159 --> 01:02:48,960 to take care of your dog. We need to your 1032 01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:53,880 dogs anyway. But the bottom line is the connection goes 1033 01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,920 back to, as I said Johnny Roselli, it goes back 1034 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:02,320 to Las Vegas. We have a lawyer who is brought 1035 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,280 in to defend uh, Jack Ruby, who gets a call 1036 01:03:07,679 --> 01:03:12,960 after Jack Ruby shoots Oswald and and basically the lawyer says, 1037 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,199 I knew he was calling. I recognize the voice. Uh 1038 01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:18,760 you know, and they and by the way, and the 1039 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,800 call they go, you know this, all the money that 1040 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,199 we're going to talk about, and this whole defense fund 1041 01:03:24,239 --> 01:03:26,280 that we're going to talk about has to go through 1042 01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,880 Jack's brother, you know, with this has got to be 1043 01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,519 totally deniable. You're going to make a lot of money 1044 01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:33,320 off this. The guy said, I knew it was Johnny 1045 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,840 Roselli calling me from Vegas, and we have an FBI 1046 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,400 surveillance report putting Johnny Roselli in Vegas at the time. 1047 01:03:42,079 --> 01:03:45,039 That gets to be this. The conspiracy itself is a 1048 01:03:45,079 --> 01:03:49,079 combination of people. It's not just one individual, and and 1049 01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:52,920 they have their strengths. Roselli had had certain strengths, and 1050 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,119 he had connections to Dallas and and could make things. 1051 01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,199 You know, to do something like the attack in Dallas, 1052 01:03:59,519 --> 01:04:02,800 you not only need people that are experienced and trained 1053 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:08,360 and enough to do that kind of paramilitary attack and dealing, 1054 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,519 but you need field work. I mean, that's the way 1055 01:04:11,639 --> 01:04:13,880 things you need to You need to set up things. 1056 01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,039 You need to know who can be given minor jobs. 1057 01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:21,320 How can you get access to information that's ru That's 1058 01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,639 what Jack Ruby was doing up until Oswald got captured. 1059 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:26,840 Then it all changed. 1060 01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 2: They had to be a professional team. Now this Rosellie 1061 01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:38,320 guy right has connections to the CIA. That would that 1062 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,119 would make one's mind wander as to who could have 1063 01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:48,760 been behind this. How proficient was Oswald with a weapon? 1064 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:53,039 Because if we're talking, I've seen I think even did 1065 01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:57,920 MythBusters do an episode on the shooting? How you had 1066 01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,639 to do like two shots and you know, so x 1067 01:05:01,679 --> 01:05:04,360 amount of time and that it was I think it 1068 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,480 was like impossible. I could be completely remorant wrong. But 1069 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,480 how proficient was he with weapons? If at all? 1070 01:05:11,639 --> 01:05:14,400 Speaker 3: Well, two things? To make those shots? You had to 1071 01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:18,039 operate a bolt action rifle. For anybody who's ever followed, 1072 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,599 that means you've got to eject your cell, you got 1073 01:05:20,599 --> 01:05:23,719 to work your bolt, you've got to reseat your shell 1074 01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:25,800 even though you've got a clip in the rifle, and 1075 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,320 you've got to re require a target either through the scope, 1076 01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,840 which the FBI found was not sighted in correctly. So 1077 01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:34,920 if he had used this, so he would have missed. 1078 01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,679 So okay, let's say he's using the iron sights, he's 1079 01:05:37,719 --> 01:05:41,320 got to real Nobody could ever duplicate that they could 1080 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,840 get off six shots in three shots in six seconds 1081 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,400 but not hit the target. You know, so people always go, well, 1082 01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:51,480 you can do you can take those shots. Hey, you 1083 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,639 can't take you can take the shots, you can't hit it. 1084 01:05:54,039 --> 01:05:57,239 The Marines couldn't duplicate it, the FBI couldn't duplicate it. 1085 01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,039 Nobody could duplicate it. But the real story on a 1086 01:06:00,199 --> 01:06:06,199 well is when he went through basic training, infantry training 1087 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:11,000 basically AI T or Marine infantry training, a fired competent. 1088 01:06:11,519 --> 01:06:14,119 I mean, that's truth. You know, he's on the range 1089 01:06:14,159 --> 01:06:18,039 a lot. He's firing competent. That's not a problem. Oswald 1090 01:06:18,079 --> 01:06:21,400 has shot before he was a kid. You know, his 1091 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:24,760 family talks about going out and hunting, so, you know, 1092 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,679 not an expert or anything, but he's used a rifle before, 1093 01:06:29,079 --> 01:06:33,239 and he likes guns. Most people in my generation down here, yeah, 1094 01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:38,159 guns were routine. But when he was exiting the Marines 1095 01:06:38,679 --> 01:06:42,320 and taking his last firing range test, he barely qualified, 1096 01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,880 which just shows you, again, as anybody shooter knows, if 1097 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:49,440 you're not practicing, you get worse. You've got to be 1098 01:06:49,519 --> 01:06:52,519 practicing with that weapon. You've got to have the weapon 1099 01:06:52,639 --> 01:06:55,880 sited in just to show you how bad this is. 1100 01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,440 When we put this out in the book, when the 1101 01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,239 Warren Commission decided that they had to have a section 1102 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:07,199 on Oswald's shooting ability, their advisor from the Justice Department said, 1103 01:07:07,239 --> 01:07:10,239 do not do that. Nobody's going to believe it. You 1104 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,119 don't have a case. Leave that whole section out, which 1105 01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:17,000 they did not. But it's like anybody who really looks 1106 01:07:17,039 --> 01:07:21,920 at the background. There, No, he didn't. He not only 1107 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,320 did not have those skills, he had not there was 1108 01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,800 no practice that could be found. You know, for years 1109 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,639 when he had been in Russia, he joined a factory 1110 01:07:31,679 --> 01:07:34,880 shooting team because that was kind of expected, and we 1111 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,599 know from people that talked with members of the team 1112 01:07:37,639 --> 01:07:39,639 he was not a good shot. Then then they laughed 1113 01:07:39,639 --> 01:07:43,599 at him. He did buy he bought a shotgun and 1114 01:07:43,719 --> 01:07:47,440 went hunting in Russia, and again they laughed at him 1115 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:52,079 because he couldn't hit anything. So there's not really a 1116 01:07:52,079 --> 01:07:54,960 good there's a reason why the Justice Department guy said, 1117 01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:59,440 don't do that. I would throw one thing other thing 1118 01:07:59,519 --> 01:08:02,519 in for peace people that are maybe not as familiar 1119 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,039 as how badly this sort of information was obscured by 1120 01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:10,519 the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission convened a ballistics panel. 1121 01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:17,399 These are guys experienced, experienced weapons experience and wounds experienced ballistics, 1122 01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,239 and they gave him the supposedly the fatal bullet, the 1123 01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:24,600 bullet that went both through Kennedy and Conley, and they 1124 01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,640 studied extensively and they generated a report that said, no, 1125 01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,319 this bullet doesn't work. This bullet does not do what 1126 01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:35,720 you said it do. It doesn't support the shooting scenario 1127 01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:40,079 that you have. It doesn't work. As I recall, there 1128 01:08:40,119 --> 01:08:43,000 was something like a dozen people on the panel that 1129 01:08:43,199 --> 01:08:46,079 just said it doesn't work. There was one person that 1130 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:50,279 advised the panel who said it worked, Arlen Spector, the 1131 01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:53,359 guy who had come up with the shooting scenario for 1132 01:08:53,479 --> 01:09:01,039 that bullet, and basically Specter said, well, I believe it 1133 01:09:01,039 --> 01:09:04,159 can anyway, and the Warrant Commission just took it and 1134 01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:06,720 hit it in the twenty six. In fact, I'm not 1135 01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:09,119 even sure it's in the twenty six volumes. They just 1136 01:09:09,159 --> 01:09:11,239 it's like, we don't want to see this. This is 1137 01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:12,600 not going to be part of the story. 1138 01:09:14,119 --> 01:09:17,560 Speaker 2: Yikes. That's not a good look for the for the 1139 01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,039 for the team at all. It seems like Oswald was 1140 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,439 and maybe he wasn't. I was going to say he's, 1141 01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:28,119 you know, wrong place, wrong time. No, he was exactly 1142 01:09:28,159 --> 01:09:32,439 where he needed to be. But it was calculated even 1143 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,119 before that, how you said earlier, he had a whole 1144 01:09:36,119 --> 01:09:38,000 different series of events of what was going to go 1145 01:09:38,079 --> 01:09:40,960 down that day, and that didn't include being framed for 1146 01:09:41,079 --> 01:09:47,039 the assassination of JFK. So where do we go from here, Larry, 1147 01:09:47,119 --> 01:09:49,920 what I know? You leave it open for speculation in 1148 01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:53,159 the book, and you say, towards the beginning of the 1149 01:09:53,159 --> 01:09:57,560 book he was not, you know, this calculated, cold blooded killer. 1150 01:09:58,039 --> 01:09:59,399 And towards the end of the book he kind of 1151 01:09:59,399 --> 01:10:01,520 say the same. You know, we're presenting the information, you 1152 01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,239 go through his life and everything, But what's next? Are 1153 01:10:06,279 --> 01:10:08,319 we ever going to know the truth theory? Is this 1154 01:10:08,359 --> 01:10:10,680 ever going to come and see the light of day? 1155 01:10:11,359 --> 01:10:14,079 Speaker 3: Well, after four books on the subject, I would say, 1156 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:19,199 let's put it this way. I've satisfied myself. I can't 1157 01:10:19,239 --> 01:10:22,560 claim that it will satisfy anybody else. But I wrote 1158 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,680 a book called Tipping Point, which deals with the conspiracy 1159 01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:31,439 and the attack. Right, Okay, this is where the here's 1160 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,640 how the conspiracy jelled here with the high level motives, 1161 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,960 the low level motives, the kind of people that were involved. 1162 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,359 That was in a book called Tipping Point, And that 1163 01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,680 was kind of the summary of all the other work 1164 01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:46,720 that I'd done, my best view of how it had 1165 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,720 happened and who was involved. But the reason I went 1166 01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,920 on to write this book with David was because it 1167 01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,319 had left Oswald out of the equation. It's kind of 1168 01:10:55,359 --> 01:10:58,199 like Okay, that's the conspiracy and those are the guys. 1169 01:10:58,199 --> 01:11:01,079 But what about Oswald? What's going going on with Oswald? 1170 01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:03,720 And how could he be blamed for this? How much 1171 01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,239 of it was coincidence? How much was it framed? And 1172 01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,640 one of the things that is important to remember is 1173 01:11:11,079 --> 01:11:14,840 if you're going to really patsy someone, it's kind of 1174 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,920 like a con job. The easiest way to con somebody 1175 01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:20,880 is to say that you're doing what they want to do. 1176 01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,079 You know they're trying to make money. You offer them 1177 01:11:24,079 --> 01:11:27,159 a money making scheme. You know you never got you 1178 01:11:27,239 --> 01:11:30,000 never win at the tables. I got a system, you know. 1179 01:11:30,319 --> 01:11:33,000 It's You've got to offer him something that they find 1180 01:11:33,079 --> 01:11:37,680 is it's in their agenda. And that's what happened with Oswald. 1181 01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:42,640 The bad guys really offered him something that fit his agenda, 1182 01:11:43,119 --> 01:11:46,439 had nothing to do with JFK, but that made him usable. 1183 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,119 And they started that effort as early as August in 1184 01:11:50,199 --> 01:11:53,800 New Orleans when they had first approached him. And there's 1185 01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,399 a whole series of activities that they did with him 1186 01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:00,319 to convince him that they were on his side, were 1187 01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:03,600 going to offer him something that he wanted, which literally 1188 01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:07,760 was to go to Cuba. And join in the Cuban experience, 1189 01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:11,800 the Cuban revolution and maybe even carry you know, a 1190 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:18,600 Yankee imperialism, carry this on, participate. So they offered him 1191 01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:21,560 something and we can we can describe that. I mean, 1192 01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:26,600 we we actually have documents of him saying that he 1193 01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,399 wanted to do that, trying to go to Cuba, even 1194 01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:33,520 talking about hijacking an aircraft to go to Cuba. So 1195 01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:39,000 that's why to answer your question is what can we 1196 01:12:39,039 --> 01:12:42,880 do to solve this? I think to one extent, we're 1197 01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,720 not going to go much beyond that in the conspiracy 1198 01:12:46,279 --> 01:12:49,399 because it was not investigated, and to the extent that 1199 01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,399 it was investigated, like the report I talked about earlier, 1200 01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:56,199 when the CIA investigates itself, that's gone. You know, if 1201 01:12:56,199 --> 01:13:00,199 they found something that implicated some of their people, we're 1202 01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:01,479 not going to see it. So I don't know that 1203 01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:03,920 we're going to get better on that. I think that 1204 01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:07,520 there are some documents that exist in regard to the 1205 01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:12,439 CIA and Oswald, the FBI and Oswald that could could 1206 01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:14,800 tell us a lot about what they were doing with 1207 01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,960 Oswald and tell us why it was covered up. So 1208 01:13:18,239 --> 01:13:20,279 I think we could understand. I think we will be 1209 01:13:20,319 --> 01:13:23,640 able to understand the cover up more. If we get 1210 01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,600 some of the right that documents that we know existed 1211 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,199 at one point in time, we may be able to 1212 01:13:29,279 --> 01:13:32,399 undercover a little bit more about the conspiracy because we 1213 01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,159 know what to look for. I will say this, and 1214 01:13:35,199 --> 01:13:39,000 it's not to if the people, if the d n 1215 01:13:39,119 --> 01:13:41,960 I and these teams that are looking at revealing documents 1216 01:13:42,359 --> 01:13:45,880 don't talk to us, they won't know what they need 1217 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,520 to get because it's not just taking what's going to 1218 01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,600 be given to you and releasing it. That's not the 1219 01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:56,640 point that would have happened a long time ago. We 1220 01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:59,119 do know what to look for, and I hope they 1221 01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,760 there's soveral people that could help them. I hope they 1222 01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,079 go that route. But another long wined answer to your question, 1223 01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,560 I think we have an insight into the actual conspiracy 1224 01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:11,720 among all the many that there could have been, the 1225 01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:16,399 actual motive among all the many that there were, and 1226 01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:18,239 we have a view of Oswald that I think is 1227 01:14:18,279 --> 01:14:23,359 finally more rational, it's more real. Regarding to Ashwall, it 1228 01:14:23,399 --> 01:14:26,279 doesn't doesn't make Oswell a good guy, doesn't make him 1229 01:14:26,319 --> 01:14:29,399 a bad guy, but it makes him doing his own thing, 1230 01:14:30,159 --> 01:14:33,880 which is a lot easier to understand. 1231 01:14:34,279 --> 01:14:36,760 Speaker 2: And I think it's important to look at because I 1232 01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,960 love history as well. I love everything about it. Some 1233 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,199 people would say that history has been manipulated, which I mean, 1234 01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:45,880 I can't help but agree with them to a certain extent, 1235 01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:47,560 because I mean, it's going to happen. How you're saying. 1236 01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:51,079 If the CIA found something, what's to say that they 1237 01:14:51,079 --> 01:14:53,319 didn't scrub it behind the scenes, And we're never going 1238 01:14:53,399 --> 01:14:56,079 to know the truth about that. But I love the 1239 01:14:56,119 --> 01:14:58,399 fact that you took this book and you wrote it 1240 01:14:58,439 --> 01:15:03,880 from a different perspective. One always focuses right, JFKJFKJFK, the 1241 01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:08,159 magic bullet, magic bullet. I've even seen conspiracies where it 1242 01:15:08,279 --> 01:15:13,279 was actually the driver of the limousine or whatever you 1243 01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:16,800 want to call it that turns around and actually fires 1244 01:15:16,960 --> 01:15:21,760 back at JFK. I mean, there's been so many different things, 1245 01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:28,239 and this is a multifaceted conspiracy. And you know, even 1246 01:15:28,279 --> 01:15:30,279 if you go deeper into the conspiracy, people are like 1247 01:15:30,319 --> 01:15:34,119 November twenty second, right, eleven, twenty two, thirty three, So 1248 01:15:34,199 --> 01:15:37,479 it was the Freemasons that you know, got to JFK, 1249 01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:41,800 the Illuminati, the mob ties. He was gonna I've also 1250 01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,520 heard he was gonna cut off funding to Israel or 1251 01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:47,239 something like that. So I was the Zionist or whoever. 1252 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:53,479 There's so many things going on, and similar to how 1253 01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:58,319 we're never gonna truly know probably you know the origins 1254 01:15:58,319 --> 01:16:02,159 of life. I don't think we're ever gonna truly truly 1255 01:16:02,279 --> 01:16:08,239 know the secret of the Jeff, you know what actually 1256 01:16:08,319 --> 01:16:10,920 happened that day? And maybe how you're saying he was 1257 01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:13,640 promised all these things, would you say he was more 1258 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:17,119 of a I don't want to call him an idiot, 1259 01:16:17,159 --> 01:16:19,359 but a useful idiot to where he kind of fell 1260 01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:22,239 for the plan, and like, hey, we got him because 1261 01:16:22,239 --> 01:16:26,720 he kind of There are holes in the whole character 1262 01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,960 of Oswalder, we can find those in some discrepancies, but 1263 01:16:30,079 --> 01:16:33,479 he fit the narrative so well. And then on top 1264 01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:37,239 of him being dead, which we're never gonna know, how 1265 01:16:37,279 --> 01:16:39,560 old would he have been if he survived till this day, 1266 01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,039 he would have been what eighty something. 1267 01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, eighty something, I think eighty two something like that. 1268 01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,039 Speaker 2: He fit the narrative. And then they wipe him out, 1269 01:16:50,239 --> 01:16:52,920 Jack Ruby croaks you know a little bit after that, 1270 01:16:53,199 --> 01:16:55,359 and then who's left other than the main players, Right, 1271 01:16:55,359 --> 01:16:59,199 it's a game of chess that they're playing, and would 1272 01:16:59,239 --> 01:17:00,520 you say they got away? 1273 01:17:01,399 --> 01:17:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, here's the thing, and actually that question makes me 1274 01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:06,800 feel a little bitter about the whole thing. First of all, 1275 01:17:07,079 --> 01:17:10,439 you use the term useful idiot, and that that's interesting 1276 01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,119 because that doesn't come from us. That comes from a 1277 01:17:13,119 --> 01:17:17,000 CIA officer. We have an action quote from cha officer 1278 01:17:17,239 --> 01:17:19,960 who who's in this same group that we're talking about, 1279 01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,720 in this Cuban operations group, and his his daughter asked 1280 01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:27,159 him one time she goes and she's open about this, 1281 01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:31,359 she said, well, okay, tell me who killed Kennedy. You know, 1282 01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:33,640 all right, this is what you talk about at Thanksgiving 1283 01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,159 at the dinner table. It's like when your dad's been 1284 01:17:36,159 --> 01:17:38,680 in the CIA, right, Okay, you should know you're there. 1285 01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:42,239 And his response to that was you don't want to know, 1286 01:17:43,479 --> 01:17:47,239 which is not a reassuring response. And then then she said, 1287 01:17:47,279 --> 01:17:50,199 well what about you? What what about Lee Harvey Oswald? 1288 01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:53,239 And his dad said, he was simply a useful idiot. 1289 01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:56,960 Now in CIA terminology, that doesn't mean he was an 1290 01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:00,960 idiot and not bright. That means that he could be manipulated. 1291 01:18:01,319 --> 01:18:05,159 We used him unknowingly. He is, he is an idiot 1292 01:18:05,199 --> 01:18:09,199 in terms of what our agenda is he's got his agenda. 1293 01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:13,520 So actually that term useful idiot, I think is a 1294 01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:19,439 very good descriptor on on your other question and other response. 1295 01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:23,520 What makes me feel better about it? Okay, if that's possible. 1296 01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:27,359 One of the people, and I did find a few 1297 01:18:27,399 --> 01:18:33,159 people who were inside the conspiracy that eventually had heard 1298 01:18:33,199 --> 01:18:35,640 about it at the time, not later, I mean at 1299 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:40,520 the time in November nineteen sixty three. One of them 1300 01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:44,960 was a young man from Florida who his father was 1301 01:18:45,039 --> 01:18:50,000 John Martino, who had been a prisoner inside Cuba, very 1302 01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:54,239 anti Castro, and his dad had talked about what was 1303 01:18:54,279 --> 01:18:57,479 going to happen to Kennedy when he got to Texas. Okay, 1304 01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:01,359 and actually this is on red record. Two of his friends. 1305 01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,720 He talked to them both right before his death, and 1306 01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,560 they provided information to the HSCA, the House Select Committee 1307 01:19:08,560 --> 01:19:12,840 on Assassinations. He didn't know much, and he didn't claim 1308 01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,960 that he knew much, but he knew a couple of things, 1309 01:19:15,079 --> 01:19:17,239 and he had had a very minor role. He was 1310 01:19:17,239 --> 01:19:22,239 a courier, had gone in New Orleans and Dallas. What 1311 01:19:22,319 --> 01:19:25,199 he knew was Lee rv Oswell was not the shooter, 1312 01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:27,640 never intended to be a shooter was not a part 1313 01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,119 of the shooting plot. Learvy. Oswell was supposed to be 1314 01:19:31,640 --> 01:19:34,279 thought that he was going to meet people at the 1315 01:19:34,319 --> 01:19:37,640 Texas School at the Texas Theater who were going to 1316 01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:39,640 help him get out of the US and go to Cuba. 1317 01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:44,119 But that was not going to happen. He was going 1318 01:19:44,199 --> 01:19:47,760 to be killed with evidence planted on him pointing to 1319 01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:53,560 Castro and Cuban agents, and Oswell went off the rails. 1320 01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,920 At twelve thirty, the first part of their plan succeeded. 1321 01:19:57,000 --> 01:20:01,279 They killed JFK and a comp polish what they their 1322 01:20:01,319 --> 01:20:06,199 mission was. Ozma went off the rails. He got concerned, 1323 01:20:06,239 --> 01:20:08,880 He heard things he wasn't supposed to hear. It was 1324 01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:10,800 a shock to him that the president had been to 1325 01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:15,800 kill what's going on? And he gets himself caught And 1326 01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:20,199 for them, these people, Martino and his friends had been 1327 01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:23,319 told that their action was going to cause the US 1328 01:20:23,359 --> 01:20:27,960 to invade Cuba and replace Castro. That's why they were 1329 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:32,039 in it, That's why they were participating a big part 1330 01:20:32,079 --> 01:20:36,239 of it that didn't happen. Eventually they reached the conclusion 1331 01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:40,520 that they had been given a false story. These people 1332 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,239 had never really intended that to happen. It was just 1333 01:20:43,319 --> 01:20:45,640 something to help co opt them and get them to 1334 01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:50,880 go along. But I guess your question was, you know, 1335 01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:54,600 did they win. The bad news is they won because 1336 01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,880 they killed JFK. The good news is that they didn't 1337 01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:01,600 win what they wanted to win. And it does cheer 1338 01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:03,880 me up to think that. You know, he said his 1339 01:21:04,039 --> 01:21:07,199 dad was on the phone all afternoon. Everybody was just 1340 01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:10,319 going out of their minds because things weren't happening that 1341 01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:14,720 should be happening. And I it makes me feel better 1342 01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:16,119 to know that they were frustrated. 1343 01:21:18,159 --> 01:21:23,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, almost definitely. And I'm just wondering, let's say that, right, 1344 01:21:23,279 --> 01:21:25,319 Let's say that all this is true, that he wasn't 1345 01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:30,560 the shooter, and that he was actually just this amos, 1346 01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:34,960 almost a willing participant, almost right where he actually was, 1347 01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:38,920 within the building that he was in, and if he 1348 01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:41,960 heard the shots that went off and all of that, 1349 01:21:42,079 --> 01:21:45,600 and what his thoughts and reactions would be, right, And 1350 01:21:46,119 --> 01:21:48,600 I just wish he would have done more when the 1351 01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:53,159 cameras were on him to get rid of that narrative 1352 01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:57,199 right to maybe maybe he was maybe he was taking 1353 01:21:57,239 --> 01:21:59,880 a little bit LSD Larry. I mean, who knows, right. 1354 01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,119 Speaker 3: But let's think about this. And this is something David 1355 01:22:03,159 --> 01:22:05,479 and I got to in the epilogue. It's kind of like, Okay, 1356 01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,399 what if what if Oswell doesn't get shot by Ruby? 1357 01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:11,000 What's he going to have to say? All right, here's 1358 01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:15,079 the bad news. There is a rifle traceable to him 1359 01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:17,880 at the scene of the crime where the shooting occurred. 1360 01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:21,359 Now is he going to get off with public opinion 1361 01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:23,279 being what it was? What's he going to have to say? 1362 01:22:23,319 --> 01:22:25,479 It's kind of like, well, he asked my rifle, but 1363 01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,039 I didn't put it there. I didn't bring it to work. 1364 01:22:28,119 --> 01:22:30,880 Oh who did well? I don't know who did well. 1365 01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:33,479 Why would they do this to you? I don't know 1366 01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:35,319 why they would do it to me? This guy's said 1367 01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,039 and they said they were Cuban agents trying to help me. 1368 01:22:39,239 --> 01:22:42,279 Oh oh we Oh, so your friends are Cuban agents 1369 01:22:42,399 --> 01:22:47,199 trying to help you. They're pro Castro and and we're 1370 01:22:47,279 --> 01:22:49,760 just kind of getting you know, if he said everything 1371 01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:54,680 that he knew that we think he knew, yeah, nobody 1372 01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:57,000 would have believed it. He might have just dug himself 1373 01:22:57,000 --> 01:22:59,279 in a deeper hole. Yeah. 1374 01:22:59,279 --> 01:23:01,079 Speaker 2: I think you guys said nobody would have believed them. 1375 01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:03,000 If you would have told the truth anyways to begin with, 1376 01:23:03,079 --> 01:23:05,760 because the right they had already taken a hold of 1377 01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:08,800 the narrative. Larry, you know, just a few more questions 1378 01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:11,680 here before we start wrapping up. Are do you believe 1379 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:14,279 maybe there are there people still alive till this day 1380 01:23:14,359 --> 01:23:15,119 that know the truth? 1381 01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,439 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so. I think there are still They're 1382 01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:24,359 the ones that that do know are in their eighties. Certainly, 1383 01:23:24,399 --> 01:23:27,920 there's no doubt about that. I don't see any reason 1384 01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:31,039 that I have actually talked on occasions like could you 1385 01:23:31,159 --> 01:23:34,319 persuade somebody to write a note and leave it, you know, 1386 01:23:34,399 --> 01:23:37,800 with their attorney for after they pass away, to tell 1387 01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:42,039 this story. I don't really expect that's going to happen. 1388 01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:45,760 I'm led to believe that. You know, they were still 1389 01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:48,600 proud of what they did. There there was you know, 1390 01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:52,520 they were acting on their agenda. They were they were 1391 01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:56,319 acting to you know, they had been fighting for years 1392 01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:59,319 to get rid of Castro in the Cuban regime. So 1393 01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:02,399 they viewed it as an act of patriotism. And I 1394 01:24:02,399 --> 01:24:05,640 don't think you're going to see anybody recant an act 1395 01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:09,560 of patriotism. The ones that would be alive, the CI 1396 01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:13,640 officers seem to be. You know, they're not going to embarra. 1397 01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:16,479 If they didn't embarrass the agency before, they're not going 1398 01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:19,199 to embarrass the agency now. The agency was fighting the 1399 01:24:19,199 --> 01:24:21,520 Cod War, they won the CO War, they won the 1400 01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,800 first COD War. At least they're not gonna recant. So 1401 01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:29,159 I don't really know who it would be. The witnesses 1402 01:24:29,239 --> 01:24:31,000 we've you know, we're not going to hear anything new 1403 01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:36,840 from the witnesses. So no, I think there are people living. 1404 01:24:37,039 --> 01:24:38,880 I don't see any of them at risk. I think 1405 01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,239 the thought that the records might somehow, you know, be 1406 01:24:42,319 --> 01:24:46,279 a risk for them, it's not realistic. I don't think 1407 01:24:46,359 --> 01:24:49,119 any of that is true because there's nothing in There's 1408 01:24:49,159 --> 01:24:52,439 nothing in the records. It wasn't investigated, or when it 1409 01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:54,479 was investigated, it disappeared. Right. 1410 01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,479 Speaker 2: You think RFK Junior knows, No. 1411 01:25:00,159 --> 01:25:05,079 Speaker 3: He suspects. I don't think he's heard anything other than 1412 01:25:05,119 --> 01:25:08,159 what we've discussed. I mean, I know people that know him. 1413 01:25:09,239 --> 01:25:11,640 I talked to him briefly on a couple of occasions. 1414 01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,479 He might not even remember I talked to him about 1415 01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:18,960 the RFKS as nation, not JFK. But I know I 1416 01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:23,079 don't think I think he has the same suspicions from 1417 01:25:23,159 --> 01:25:25,640 high level people who heard it. It's kind of like 1418 01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,920 this useful idiot thing. Did he hear from people you 1419 01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:35,520 would think know that you know? But on November the 1420 01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:40,760 twenty second, we know that Robert Kennedy Bobby made two 1421 01:25:40,840 --> 01:25:44,359 telephone calls. The first call was to the director of 1422 01:25:44,359 --> 01:25:48,159 the CIA to ask him, and Bobby said, this, did 1423 01:25:48,159 --> 01:25:52,560 the CIA kill my brother? Now? The strangest thing is 1424 01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:55,880 nobody ever asked Bobby, why did you think they would? 1425 01:25:57,039 --> 01:25:59,520 What led you? Why is this your first call? Now 1426 01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:03,720 Macau told you no, but he's not CIA's just the 1427 01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,760 director who knows. But why would you think that? The 1428 01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:10,319 second call was to a friend of his in an 1429 01:26:10,399 --> 01:26:13,399 Anticastro group who was working on a new new project 1430 01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:17,279 to launch a new regime change operation against Castro, and 1431 01:26:17,359 --> 01:26:20,920 he called him and wanted to talk to and he said, literally, 1432 01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:25,520 your people did it. Nobody asked Bobby why he said that, 1433 01:26:27,119 --> 01:26:30,680 you know? What did Bobby know? What did Bobby suspect? 1434 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:35,199 We know from documents and things that have been revealed 1435 01:26:35,199 --> 01:26:41,560 that both Bobby and Jackie told the Russians sent contacts 1436 01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:44,880 to tell the Russians that they knew it wasn't the Russians, 1437 01:26:45,039 --> 01:26:48,720 they knew it was a domestic conspiracy, or they suspect 1438 01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:52,760 that it was a domestic conspiracy. One of the documents 1439 01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:56,199 that we're not going to get is that William Manchester 1440 01:26:56,760 --> 01:27:03,439 interviewed Jackie and several others witnesses about these sorts of things, 1441 01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:08,159 and because he was writing a book on the assassination, 1442 01:27:08,279 --> 01:27:13,800 William Manchester right afterwards the Kennedy family Jackie seal those 1443 01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:19,239 records for seventy five years as to what she told Manchester, 1444 01:27:20,239 --> 01:27:23,239 it's not part of the JFK collection. We're not going 1445 01:27:23,319 --> 01:27:25,680 to get that as any part of I think that 1446 01:27:25,720 --> 01:27:29,199 would tell us more, you know, what Jackie and Bobby 1447 01:27:29,399 --> 01:27:32,880 suspected and why they suspected. It would tell us any 1448 01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,359 more more than any document that we're going to get. 1449 01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,279 Speaker 2: Maybe that's why RFK was taken out. Perhaps, I mean, 1450 01:27:40,319 --> 01:27:41,119 that's just an idea. 1451 01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,600 Speaker 3: Maybe, I mean that has been expressed. It's I have 1452 01:27:47,159 --> 01:27:49,199 one of the issues. Of course, I was there when 1453 01:27:49,279 --> 01:27:52,079 RFK was campaigning. I was a big part of on 1454 01:27:52,159 --> 01:27:54,680 campus and part of what was going on at the time. 1455 01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:59,319 Even if RFK had not become president, there's no doubt 1456 01:27:59,359 --> 01:28:01,960 that RFK would have been part of the next administration, 1457 01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,880 you know, and what role is probably not Attorney general again, 1458 01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:07,600 but he would have had a role. He would have 1459 01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:13,560 been a big decision maker in any Humphrey administration. And 1460 01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:15,560 one of the things that you have to look at. 1461 01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:20,199 I'm not so sure that if Robert had wanted to 1462 01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:24,039 disclose what he knew and raise the roof, he would 1463 01:28:24,079 --> 01:28:28,359 have done it. I mean, he would have done it 1464 01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,119 what he could. I My particular thing is I think 1465 01:28:32,159 --> 01:28:35,760 his role either as a president or you know, that 1466 01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:39,760 threatened people outside the jail. It wasn't just about JFF assassination. 1467 01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,920 It was Bobby and his inclination to do things that 1468 01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:46,000 were kind of like his brothers. It's sort of like 1469 01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:49,439 he's for the same sorts of thing as his brother was. 1470 01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:52,520 Who wouldn't like that. It's not so much just the 1471 01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:58,560 JFK assassination. It's just what administration policies would Bobby and 1472 01:28:59,159 --> 01:29:03,000 as president or Bobby is a major figure pursue. That's 1473 01:29:03,039 --> 01:29:03,600 the danger. 1474 01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:07,760 Speaker 2: I guess we'll never know, Larry right, I mean, this 1475 01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:11,159 is a lot of rabbit holes, a lot of I 1476 01:29:11,199 --> 01:29:14,439 find it super fascinating, super interesting, And I look at 1477 01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:17,800 the JFK assassination almost like a thought experiment, right, It 1478 01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:22,520 makes you think, makes you wonder we have the mainstream ideas. Man, 1479 01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:26,359 I'm gonna take James Files word on it. I think 1480 01:29:26,399 --> 01:29:29,720 maybe he did it. He's a good storyteller. Who knows. 1481 01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:32,600 But Larry, do you have anything planned? I know you've 1482 01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:36,800 written many, many books, You've researched this for a lot 1483 01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:39,840 of years. Do you have any other plans on other 1484 01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,560 books coming out here soon? What can people expect from 1485 01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:43,680 you now? 1486 01:29:44,039 --> 01:29:48,600 Speaker 3: David and I are still still working on some of 1487 01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,520 the aspects of this. You know, who would have set 1488 01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:55,560 Lee Oswald? Harvey Oswell, how did that really happen? Who 1489 01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:59,479 traveled with him after New Orleans? We think maybe we 1490 01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:02,680 can piece some of those things together, really take this 1491 01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:06,039 to a finer level of detail, and kind of like, 1492 01:30:06,119 --> 01:30:09,279 there are certain number of suspects, could you condense the 1493 01:30:09,359 --> 01:30:12,039 number a little bit? So we plan to keep working 1494 01:30:12,079 --> 01:30:17,920 on that. For myself, you know, it has been thirty 1495 01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:20,720 five years. I'm kind of thinking I need another hobby. 1496 01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,359 You know, there's a telescope behind me. Maybe I should 1497 01:30:24,399 --> 01:30:27,199 take that out again. It's like, you know, I used 1498 01:30:27,199 --> 01:30:30,600 to go fishing. Was life better before all the history. 1499 01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,079 I love the history just like you. I love it. 1500 01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:35,520 I don't doubt that I'll ever get away with it, 1501 01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:40,239 but I keep going. You know, Okay, options. 1502 01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:43,560 Speaker 2: You don't look at day past thirty, Larry. You look great, 1503 01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:44,319 all right. 1504 01:30:44,199 --> 01:30:46,159 Speaker 3: So I appreciate that. 1505 01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:49,399 Speaker 2: Keep up the great work. I really appreciate you talking 1506 01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:53,079 to me today. And if I've learned anything from today's 1507 01:30:53,439 --> 01:30:56,920 interview is that the aliens did really take JFK out. 1508 01:30:57,039 --> 01:30:59,720 So I'm going to tell my kids that's what happened, 1509 01:31:00,359 --> 01:31:03,439 and hopefully they tell their kids that that's what happens. 1510 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:06,479 Speaker 3: I've got a program for you. Do a search on 1511 01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:08,800 the Dark Skies television series. 1512 01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:11,119 Speaker 2: I've heard about that is that on Netflix. 1513 01:31:11,640 --> 01:31:16,079 Speaker 3: Dark Skies is like the perfect thing. It's like Bobby 1514 01:31:16,159 --> 01:31:22,039 Kennedy investigates his brother's assassinations and finds it all due 1515 01:31:22,039 --> 01:31:26,439 to the aliens. Like it's it's the perfect convergence of 1516 01:31:26,479 --> 01:31:30,880 all these conspiracies. It's great. You know, it's Bobby Kennedy 1517 01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:36,199 against the aliens for assassinating JFK. You know, so you 1518 01:31:36,279 --> 01:31:40,760 might want to share that with them. That'll that'll go there. 1519 01:31:40,279 --> 01:31:43,359 Speaker 2: There's nothing new under the sun, that's for sure. 1520 01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:45,640 Speaker 3: You know, when it first came on television. I'm going, 1521 01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:50,520 oh finally, okay, good, We're done, Larry. 1522 01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:52,560 Speaker 2: Any closing thoughts. You want to let people know where 1523 01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:55,239 they can find you one more time, if anyone hasn't 1524 01:31:55,279 --> 01:31:58,399 heard of you or anything else, you want to plug 1525 01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:00,319 and say. 1526 01:32:00,359 --> 01:32:04,479 Speaker 3: If people do choose to read the book, you know, 1527 01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:06,840 I'll be talking about it on the blog. In any 1528 01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:09,439 of the books that there are four books, someone would 1529 01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:12,840 have talked. The whole thought was if there was a conspiracy, 1530 01:32:13,399 --> 01:32:16,880 would someone talk? And I found a few people that did, 1531 01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:21,000 but only to their wives and lawyers. You know, anybody 1532 01:32:21,039 --> 01:32:24,079 that talks to the public, irrespective of James files, don't 1533 01:32:24,119 --> 01:32:27,960 believe them if they talk to their you know, near 1534 01:32:28,119 --> 01:32:30,479 death confessions are the best kind that you can get. 1535 01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:33,079 You know, if there, if they did it, don't expect 1536 01:32:33,119 --> 01:32:35,399 them to go to the media. So someone would have 1537 01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:39,600 talked Nexus, which goes into this in regard to CIA 1538 01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:43,319 assassinations and regime change and what it looks like. And 1539 01:32:43,359 --> 01:32:46,720 then Tipping pointed this. But if anyone reads those and 1540 01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:53,640 have any questions, I'm very accessible by email and I'm 1541 01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:56,880 happy to chat about it. I don't, as you say, 1542 01:32:57,159 --> 01:32:59,760 we're never going to have exactly the final answer, but 1543 01:32:59,800 --> 01:33:01,640 I'm happy to discuss the one I found. 1544 01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:05,840 Speaker 2: I appreciate your time. Larry, thank you so much again 1545 01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:08,319 for speaking with me today. We'll make sure to check 1546 01:33:08,319 --> 01:33:14,119 out the Oswald puzzle reconsidering Lee Harvey Oswald, available Amazon 1547 01:33:14,239 --> 01:33:16,920 or wherever just look up. Larry Hancock has done a 1548 01:33:17,039 --> 01:33:19,640 ton of work on the subject. I was very excited 1549 01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:21,239 to talk to him today because again, this is something 1550 01:33:21,239 --> 01:33:25,680 that I haven't really dive down the rabbit hole so much, 1551 01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:28,920 and it's uncovered. It's uncovered a lot of things for me, 1552 01:33:29,039 --> 01:33:32,039 so I'm happy you were here with me tonight. Larry, 1553 01:33:32,359 --> 01:33:34,319 thank you so much, and as always, everyone make sure 1554 01:33:34,319 --> 01:33:36,640 to check out the show on social media at the 1555 01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:43,000 one podcast www dot tj ojp dot com, comment, like, share, subscribe, 1556 01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,239 all that good stuff, and as always, will catch you 1557 01:33:45,319 --> 01:33:47,319 on the next one. Goodbye now,