1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: But I have a feeling that the West itself needs 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,000 to die. In fact, I think it may already have died. Actually, 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,359 this thing we call the West is a sacrifice and 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,080 is being sacrificed so that the plant can die, so 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,199 the seeds can grow, exactly as you were talking earlier, Right, 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,480 you don't get the growth without the sacrifice. And I 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,679 think we've got to such a point where we have 8 00:00:19,839 --> 00:00:23,399 created a culture that is irreligious and babylon like and 9 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,399 top heavy, and it's just fading away. And I don't 10 00:00:26,399 --> 00:00:28,160 mean that there should be a giant catastrophe or we 11 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,039 should destroy it or anything like that. I just think 12 00:00:30,079 --> 00:00:33,560 that it's dying if it's not already gone, and we 13 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:35,479 have to let that happen, because it's not going to 14 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,039 be stoppable at this point. And instead of doing that, 15 00:00:38,079 --> 00:00:41,359 instead of like fighting to protect X, Y and Z 16 00:00:41,679 --> 00:00:44,960 aspects of the superstructure, we can go back to the 17 00:00:45,039 --> 00:00:47,200 root of the culture and write about that instead and 18 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,399 build that and protect that. So it's not an all 19 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,479 or nothing situation. We don't say, oh, the West is 20 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,679 in trouble, let's let everything burn like the joker, you know. 21 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:56,520 But at the same time, we don't say well, let's 22 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,240 get out there and fight for our right to know, 23 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,000 form transnaction corporations and. 24 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: Have economic growth forever and ever. 25 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,719 Speaker 1: And mind the asteroids with Ellen Musk, right, that's not 26 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,840 anything to do with what we're talking about. Why don't 27 00:01:08,879 --> 00:01:12,159 we step back from that battle at the moment, which 28 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,680 is going on anyway, and go back to our roots, 29 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,359 which we'll find in those stories. Let's tell the stories 30 00:01:17,359 --> 00:01:19,040 of the saints, Let's tell the fairy tales on you. 31 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,760 Let's go and write about how Christianity manifests in the landscape. 32 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,079 And let's do that, not with a plan in mind 33 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,040 that this is going to build a civilization, but just 34 00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:28,799 because we think it's the thing we need to do, 35 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,799 and then will then things will happen. 36 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:46,159 Speaker 3: You know, this is Jonathan Peeshow Welcome to the symbolic World. 37 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,159 Speaker 4: Hello everyone, I am here with Paul kings North. Think 38 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,200 everyone who watches these videos knows who Paul is. You know, 39 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:06,680 we've had been having discussions for a few years now, 40 00:02:07,359 --> 00:02:11,360 and recently Paul did a talk at First Things which 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,719 was very poignant. 42 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,199 Speaker 5: It was a lot of people were very. 43 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 4: Touched by his talk where he he really criticized the 44 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,840 dangers of civilizational Christianity and uh, you know, the dangers 45 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:26,439 of people who put civilization first and see Christianity in 46 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:28,560 some ways as a as a tool to get there. 47 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:30,879 Speaker 5: And I felt called by that. 48 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 4: You know, because you know, because of my involved with art, 49 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,400 because my discussion with Jordan Peterson and a bunch of 50 00:02:35,439 --> 00:02:37,599 other people, and so I thought'd be a good idea 51 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,919 to talk about it with with Paul and kind of 52 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,680 see yeah, and kind of explore his ideas and see 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,599 where we where we touch and where we don't on 54 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:45,719 these on these questions. 55 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 5: So Paul, thanks for talking to me. 56 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thanks to have a touch and so it's 57 00:02:49,039 --> 00:02:49,639 good to be back. 58 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:55,439 Speaker 4: Yes, And so maybe you could start with just obviously 59 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,599 people can watch the talk. We'll link it in the 60 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,639 in the in the scripture and also the written version 61 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,479 of it. Maybe you can give up basic synthesis of 62 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,479 what it is that you were trying to get a craft, 63 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:07,759 and then we could start the discussion. 64 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:09,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. 65 00:03:09,199 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: Well, so I was invited to give the Erasthmus Lecture 66 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,199 of First Things, and I to be honest, when I 67 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:16,400 was invited, I'd never heard of. 68 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 2: The Erasmus lectures. 69 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:18,759 Speaker 1: So I went and looked out what it was, and 70 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,439 I discovered, to my horror that had been delivered by 71 00:03:22,039 --> 00:03:25,560 any number of eminent theologians for decades, including the former 72 00:03:25,599 --> 00:03:27,639 Pope Benedict the sixteenth, and I thought they must have 73 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,520 made a mistake. I almost didn't go, honestly, because it 74 00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:33,800 was I didn't think I was up to it, but 75 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,439 they asked me to do it, so I said, okay, well, 76 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:37,360 I'm going to try and say say something that I 77 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:40,520 think is necessary. And really the essence of the talk, 78 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,319 which was designed to be provocative, that was the point, 79 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:47,159 not for the sake of it, but just because I 80 00:03:47,159 --> 00:03:49,159 think it was something that really needed to be saying, 81 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:50,840 something that's been itching me for a long time. 82 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,759 Speaker 2: Was very much as you'd said in the introduction. 83 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,879 Speaker 1: I can see at the moment around us in Western 84 00:03:57,919 --> 00:04:01,520 society a movement coalescing of what we might called civilizational Christians. 85 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:03,919 Speaker 2: And what this is, it's a movement. 86 00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: Of people who I think quite correctly can see that 87 00:04:07,039 --> 00:04:10,560 Western culture is fragmenting and is spiritually empty. And you know, 88 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:12,400 all of the things that you talk about on your channel, 89 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:14,840 all the things I write about, probably a lot of 90 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,720 your readers would agree with, even if we might have 91 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,879 different understandings of what's going on. And people look at 92 00:04:19,879 --> 00:04:21,439 this and they say, what's wrong with the culture. Why 93 00:04:21,439 --> 00:04:23,319 are things falling apart? Why do they not hold together? 94 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:25,160 Why do things seem to be collapsing, And they come 95 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,759 to the conclusion, which I think is correct. I agree 96 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:30,560 with it, that there's a spiritual void at the heart 97 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,920 of the culture. I think a culture is fundamentally a 98 00:04:33,959 --> 00:04:36,519 spiritual creation. It's taking me about fifty years to realize that, 99 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,079 but I think that's how it works. So if we 100 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,639 agree that there's such a thing as Western culture, then 101 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:44,959 we have to ask ourselves what is it, And realistically, 102 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,639 it's what used to be Christendom, which is the domain 103 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,519 of the Western Church, the Roman Church. And so people 104 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:58,759 then from that conclusion they leap to From that observation, 105 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,560 they leap to a conclusion which is that if this 106 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,480 used to be a Christian culture, then we need to 107 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,399 revive Christianity to defend or promote or rejuvenate the culture. 108 00:05:07,399 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: But they start in the wrong place. 109 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: They start with the assumption that Christianity is some sort 110 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,240 of tool, some sort of social or cultural tool, which 111 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,519 we can use to defend the culture. Fight the woke people, 112 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:19,879 fight the Muslims fight the Russians, the Chinese, whoever, we 113 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,680 want to fight and get our culture back to some 114 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,959 form that it used to be in or should be 115 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,720 in the future. And I think it's dangerous because it's 116 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,600 precisely the wrong way around. I think the Western culture 117 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,399 is certainly it's certainly a manifestation of Christianity. It absolutely 118 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:37,920 was at the core of the culture. That's not the 119 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,240 only thing that it comes from, but it's the spiritual 120 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,199 core and has been for centuries. But not because people 121 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,360 set out to build a civilization with Christianity, but because 122 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,920 they tried to follow Christ and around them grew a 123 00:05:49,959 --> 00:05:52,839 culture which then became a civilization for better. 124 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: Or for worse. And we can argue about whether it 125 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:54,920 was good or bad. 126 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: And I think that exactly the wrong thing is going 127 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,279 on here. People are starting in the wrong place saying 128 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,079 I want a certain type of civilization, so we should 129 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,360 use the cross as a sword to build it. And 130 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:08,839 the second thing I went on to say was if 131 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:10,759 we actually step back and look at the values of 132 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,639 modern civilization, or indeed all civilization, if we want to 133 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:17,720 be really controversial, can we actually say that they're Christian 134 00:06:17,759 --> 00:06:19,959 at all? Can we really if we look at and 135 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,399 one thing I did in the talk, because I listed 136 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:23,319 the seven Deadly sins, and I looked at the fact 137 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,480 that I think that our culture is based today in 138 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,199 Western capitalist modernity, on basically inflaming them all for profit. 139 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:33,079 And I think that's a good case to be made. 140 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:34,879 I don't think if Christ came and looked at our 141 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,800 culture today he'd say, oh, well, this is exactly what 142 00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:37,519 I had in mind. 143 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,639 Speaker 2: He would not. And could we really, in fact say 144 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:42,879 that any. 145 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: Giant, centralized culture based on accumulation and wealth creation and 146 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,680 forced labor and all the rest of it is Christian 147 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,079 at all. 148 00:06:50,879 --> 00:06:52,399 Speaker 2: Regardless of what you think about that. 149 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: The fundamental thing I was trying to say was that 150 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,360 we have to I think, head off at the past 151 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:02,680 this tempt to use the Christian way as a tool 152 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,920 to defend or promote a certain type of culture, because 153 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:08,959 I think that it's exceptionally dangerous and it's going to 154 00:07:08,959 --> 00:07:12,439 do damage to Christianity and probably to the culture as well. 155 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,639 Speaker 4: No, I think I think that definitely your critique falls 156 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:22,879 in the right time. And you know, in the moment 157 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,839 when we do are seeing this shift that's happening, there 158 00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:30,879 are more and more people that are either moving espeliciallyde 159 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:34,439 towards Christianity or at least are not hostile to it 160 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,560 in the ways that they were before. And some of 161 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,680 these characters are not are not particularly are not Christian themselves. 162 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,439 And so it's fascinating because when I watched the talk, 163 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,439 I thought, I really agree with you for fifty percent. 164 00:07:51,519 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 5: I think that's what I wrote in the email. I think, 165 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:56,920 like fifty percent what you said, I completely completely agree 166 00:07:56,959 --> 00:07:57,519 with you. 167 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 4: In the sense that and I re read your text again 168 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,040 and I realized that I actually agree. 169 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 5: With you more than fifty percent. 170 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 4: Fifty was more like the that the the critique of 171 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:11,160 of what you said, I definitely agree with you. Maybe 172 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,240 I could even say that I have the sense in 173 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:19,800 which when Christ Christ talks of Antichrist, this is what 174 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,680 he's talking about, is in some ways something which is 175 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,879 within Christianity, which is out of Christianity, but is using 176 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,159 Christ for means that are different than for the glory 177 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:35,360 of God or for the transformation of souls, you know. 178 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 5: And so you have the story of Simon. 179 00:08:38,399 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 4: The Magician, for example, right there in Acts, which is 180 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,559 in some ways an example of that which is Simon 181 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,360 the magician wants Christ, so he can, you know, make 182 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,279 miracles and and you know, and us and impress everyone. 183 00:08:51,919 --> 00:08:53,399 Speaker 5: And that is exactly the opposite. 184 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 4: And it's not that the apostles don't make miracles, it's 185 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,879 that their miracles are rooted in a true faith and 186 00:09:00,159 --> 00:09:03,960 true willingness to sacrifice for the highest thing. And so 187 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,639 I think that I see that even if you look 188 00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:08,840 at the images and revelation, you have, like these two 189 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,399 images of civilization, you have one which is the beast, 190 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,159 the beast and the horror. And I think that's exactly 191 00:09:14,159 --> 00:09:19,120 what you're describing, both in terms of this tendency to 192 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,159 move explicitly towards our passions and anywhere. The way the 193 00:09:22,159 --> 00:09:23,879 beast is described is very much in the way you 194 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:27,200 describe in your own text the criticism of civilization, saying 195 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,600 it's greed, it's exchanged, it's lust, it's all these things 196 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,919 that are kind of wrapped into one. And everybody is 197 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,080 celebrating this horror because it's giving her, giving them what 198 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,480 they want. And then at the same time, the machine, 199 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,559 which is which is hiding under the whore, which is 200 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,159 basically these crazy systems of control that set themselves up 201 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,279 in the moment when we are basically giving ourselves to 202 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,440 our passions, you know, and to facilitate that as well. 203 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 5: And so I see that. 204 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: And then I also see this other image, which is 205 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,240 the image of the heavenly Jerusalem as and that maybe 206 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:01,320 that's why I said FE fifty is because I see 207 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,240 these two images as two possibilities of what is downstream 208 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,679 from Christ. But no matter what, I agree that to 209 00:10:09,799 --> 00:10:13,279 have the heavenly Jerusalem, it's not you don't try to 210 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:14,399 get the heavenly Jerusalem. 211 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,799 Speaker 5: You tried to see the Son of Man. You tried 212 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,120 to live in the light. 213 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 4: You know that the Lamb provides, and then downstream from 214 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,039 that you do have some image of civilization. And that's 215 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,080 maybe the question I have for you is that, because 216 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,639 you're right, you do push pretty radically in your talk. 217 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: You know. 218 00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 5: It's like you say, all civilization is wrong. 219 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 4: And I'm thinking it seems though, that there's like the 220 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:42,279 wheat in the chaff in civilization, kind of like what 221 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:46,759 Christ describes, and that for example, our civilization, for all 222 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,960 it's evil, and I totally agree with that, is probably 223 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,480 the civilization in which the fewest people die of hunger 224 00:10:53,519 --> 00:10:56,840 that has ever existed. In the history of humanity. Right, 225 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,360 we have another type of despair, which is work kind 226 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:01,240 of spiritual despair. 227 00:11:01,879 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 5: But that's a real thing. It's a real thing that. 228 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,279 Speaker 4: We have this virtue of taking care of the poor, 229 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,919 that's part of the system. Anyways, I'm talking a lot, 230 00:11:10,039 --> 00:11:12,000 So maybe I set you up with these two opposites, 231 00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:13,399 and I want to know what you think about that. 232 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 6: Hello everyone, this is Annie Crawford inviting you to join 233 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,200 me this January for a symbolic world reading of Till 234 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,399 We Have Faces. The book C. S. Lewis calls far 235 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:27,759 and away the best I've written. Till We Have Faces 236 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,720 is Lewis's modern retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche, 237 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,159 a mysterious tale of dark idolatry, classical Enlightenment, and the 238 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,519 shocking discovery of true religious vision. In our four week 239 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:45,039 online course, together, we'll explore what C. S. Lewis has 240 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,600 to show us about the nature of myth, the dangers 241 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:51,879 of love, the limits of reason, and the secrets of 242 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:55,679 genuine re enchantment. This is a book, an author, and 243 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,360 a class you won't want to miss. 244 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. So, I mean, I 245 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,519 have a long history of complaining about civilization. 246 00:12:06,639 --> 00:12:09,639 Speaker 2: That's the first thing I don't want to. 247 00:12:10,159 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: You know, I've made a career out of it, and 248 00:12:12,519 --> 00:12:15,120 I don't want to. I don't want to be suggesting that. 249 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,639 Luckily Jesus agrees with me, because that wasn't the point. 250 00:12:19,759 --> 00:12:20,960 I mean, one of the things I did want to 251 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,840 do in the talk with seriousness, and one of the 252 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,440 reasons I wanted to give it is I didn't want 253 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,000 to stand up there and attack people. I'm actually looking 254 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,000 at myself quite a lot of the time, because if 255 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:33,440 we look at the way Christ tells us to live 256 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,519 in the Gospels, it's not the way I'm living, right, 257 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,360 That's the reality of it. And the more Christian I become, 258 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:41,480 the more the more Christ is sort of inside me, 259 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,399 bashing away and churning things around, the more that becomes 260 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,000 painfully apparent. And so that's the paradox we're all living 261 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,799 in as Christians. If I look at the things we're 262 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,879 told to do in terms of wealth and power and 263 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:56,960 resisting evil or not resisting evil, it's not only the 264 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,240 opposite of what our civilization tells us to do, it's 265 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,799 pretty much the opposit of what I do. A lot 266 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:02,919 of the time. So I did try and say that 267 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,840 a couple of times. So I don't want to. I 268 00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:07,639 always give the impression that I'm sort of preaching as 269 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:08,320 a holy. 270 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: Man, because I'm really not. 271 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a challenge, right, So we are living 272 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,360 in a top down machine civilization, whatever you want to 273 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:14,600 call it. 274 00:13:14,639 --> 00:13:14,919 Speaker 2: There we are. 275 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,919 Speaker 1: It's not going away. It's existed for ten thousand years now. 276 00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:21,039 Of course, it gives us good material things, There's no 277 00:13:21,039 --> 00:13:23,320 doubt about that, and that's why we like it and 278 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,919 people do like it. The question is what the costs are, 279 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,519 And that's always the question. What's downstream of all the 280 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,200 good stuff we get? What's literally downstream sometimes in the 281 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:35,440 rivers and in the destruction of the forests and the 282 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:36,840 loss of the culture and all the things that we 283 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,519 can see happening. 284 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: Right, So, you never get anything for free. 285 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: You do get your good stuff, but you get a 286 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,279 lot of bad stuff as well, and. 287 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: That's just life. 288 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: So there's not a lot to be gained just from 289 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:50,960 saying civilizations bad and we should not live in it, 290 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:51,440 because we do. 291 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,159 Speaker 2: There's no getting away from it. That's where we are. 292 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: The question is what kind of values as Christians we're 293 00:13:57,519 --> 00:13:58,879 actually supposed to be pursuing. 294 00:13:59,000 --> 00:13:59,799 Speaker 2: That's my question. 295 00:14:00,039 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: As I say, it's a personal question for me and 296 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,200 for us and for the culture we live in. 297 00:14:04,639 --> 00:14:06,279 Speaker 2: I can't escape the fact. 298 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: The more I read of the Church Fathers, the more 299 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,200 I read of the monastic Saints, the more I read 300 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,919 of the Philicalia, the more I read of the Gospels, 301 00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:16,600 and it's very very difficult to try, very hard to 302 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,759 escape the fact that there is a clear division between 303 00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:22,399 what Christ calls the world and what he calls the Kingdom. 304 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,679 And there's no doubt about it. And he says very clearly, 305 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,399 I've called you out of the world. And because I've 306 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:27,679 called you out of the world, you're going to be 307 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,799 hated by the values of the world. The world being 308 00:14:31,039 --> 00:14:34,320 the passions that build the kind of things that you're 309 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:38,840 just talking about, the Babylon as the kind of manifestation 310 00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:40,399 of the great corrupt global city. 311 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,519 Speaker 2: And interestingly, in the Book of Revelation, when. 312 00:14:44,559 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: Babylon is that it's most corrupted, you hear this voice 313 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,799 from the heaven, don't you You hear Christ? And he says, 314 00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:54,000 come out of her, my people. It's a really interesting thought. 315 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,000 What are you're supposed to do with Babylon you're supposed 316 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,720 to leave because Babylon is corrupt and the heavenly Jerusalem 317 00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:01,960 is co instead. So we've got this tension all the time, 318 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,080 and the whole of Christianity seems to me like a 319 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,480 like a tension. I wrote about it recently as feeling 320 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,159 like a kind of Zen and Cohen that you're walking 321 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,360 around all the time just going what is this? That 322 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:14,039 it's not a logical system here, So of course there 323 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,919 are all these contradictions and tensions in it. But the 324 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,159 question becomes what does a Christian life look like? And 325 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,440 therefore what does a Christian culture look like? And therefore 326 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,960 should we live that? And there might be a lot 327 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,759 of answers to that, and you can only really try 328 00:15:25,759 --> 00:15:27,480 and do it by living it, as many people have 329 00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:29,759 done for two thousand years. But I'm pretty sure it 330 00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:34,200 doesn't look like modern civilization. And so as Christians, obviously 331 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,240 we're living in Babylon, so there we are. 332 00:15:36,279 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: We have to deal with that. 333 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: But if we start saying that the values of Babylon 334 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,440 are actually really Christian values and we have to defend them, 335 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,919 that's where we're in trouble. So the question for me 336 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,559 seems to be and I am stumbling around here because 337 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,120 this is not a theologian or a saint or a bishop. 338 00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:53,559 I'm somebody trying to work this out as I go along. 339 00:15:53,799 --> 00:15:55,720 The question seems to be not how shall we defend 340 00:15:55,759 --> 00:15:58,639 all the glorious values of modernity and wealth creation and profit? 341 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:01,320 And interestingly, the people who talk like this seemed to 342 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,720 me often to be defending Enlightenment values. Actually they're defending 343 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,720 liberalism and democracy and civil and capitalism and wealth creation. 344 00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: And these may or may not be good things. 345 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're bad things, but they're not fundamentally 346 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:15,639 Christian things. 347 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 2: And they're not anti Christian either necessarily. But they're very 348 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,000 modern values. So what are we doing? 349 00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: Are we trying to live as Christians and in a 350 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,519 in a Christian culture? And what would that look like? 351 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,159 And how different would it look like from the thing 352 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:29,320 that we are doing here? And I think if we 353 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:35,039 confuse the values of modern, capitalist, progressive modernity with the Gospel, 354 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,519 I think we're in a real We're in a real state. 355 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,639 Speaker 2: Because they don't seem to bear any resemblance to each other. 356 00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:44,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think I think you, I think you, 357 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,480 I think I agree with you. One of the patterns 358 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:49,000 that I see in scripture. And you can tell me 359 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:52,360 what you think about about this is I see exactly 360 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,759 in some ways what you describe. So in the Bible, 361 00:16:55,919 --> 00:17:00,200 civilization is the comes down from Cain, you know, and 362 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:03,080 so you have the fall, and then Caine found the city, 363 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:06,279 and then his descendants found pretty much everything that we 364 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:12,359 consider civilization, the arts, music, and then technology, architecture, you know, 365 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,880 ways of living in the world. And then you have 366 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,880 this intimation that violence increases, right, so when you get 367 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,319 to to to Lamic it basically this sense that you know, 368 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:25,319 the violence has increased seventyfold. You know that this is 369 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,279 this is extremely violent society, and that it'll bring about 370 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,200 the flood, it will bring about destruction. And so one 371 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,480 of the interesting thing God seems to do in scripture 372 00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:38,200 is that he seems to take the image of the 373 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,039 city and the image of the civilization, technology and all 374 00:17:42,079 --> 00:17:44,720 of that, and then he he puts it in the 375 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,559 plan of the temple and the tabernacle. So he gives 376 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,480 from heaven, he gives the plan of the tabernacle to 377 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,039 a holy ab and Bezelel in order to build this thing. 378 00:17:57,079 --> 00:17:59,000 And the way that he talks about a holy ab 379 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:02,880 in Bezeleel is in similar way that is talked about Tubalcane, 380 00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:07,240 that is, their artisans in the sense of Kane's descendants. 381 00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:10,160 So the vision that I see in scripture is that 382 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:13,480 civilization always seems to get out of control and be 383 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:16,559 exactly what you're saying, and that in fact, some ways 384 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:19,279 it's the spark, it's a sinful spark, and then God 385 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:24,319 is redeeming it constantly in the story, and the ultimate 386 00:18:24,319 --> 00:18:25,000 image of that. 387 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,839 Speaker 5: Is of course the heavenly Jerusalem. 388 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 4: But the idea would be, I think, is that there 389 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:34,480 should be intimations of that in the story as we 390 00:18:34,519 --> 00:18:37,359 move forward, there should be moments where we have intimations 391 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:37,720 of that. 392 00:18:38,079 --> 00:18:38,279 Speaker 2: You know. 393 00:18:38,319 --> 00:18:43,079 Speaker 4: For example, Christians have believed that the conversion of Constantine 394 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,200 was one of those moments where. 395 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 5: It's not a perfect thing. 396 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 4: It's not like the heavenly Jerusalem comes down from Heaven, 397 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:51,000 but that in the conversion of the Roman Empire and 398 00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:54,319 the transformation of some of the values that underlied the 399 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Roman Empire, you know, like in fanticide and chattel slavery 400 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,920 and all the dark aspect of the Roman Empire, we're 401 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,960 being transformed, not completely transformed, not fully, but that there 402 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:11,279 was this motion and so that is something that I 403 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,960 kind of see happen. And so I'm not closed. I 404 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,079 do agree about everything you said about our civilization now, 405 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:22,960 but I get the sense that it doesn't mean that 406 00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,920 it's all it's all evil, that there has to be 407 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,319 something that God can redeem. And I'm not surect Like 408 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,359 when we talk about AI. You know what I think 409 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,880 about AI, It's like I'm looking at it seeing this 410 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:36,880 like demon possessed. 411 00:19:36,759 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 5: You know, thing coming towards us. 412 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,279 Speaker 4: But I'm thinking is like I'm always asking myself, is 413 00:19:41,319 --> 00:19:44,400 it possible for these things to be redeemed? I'm not 414 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,480 sure how, But I see the heavenly Jerusalem as that image, 415 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:51,920 because in the Heavenly Jerusalem you have this, you actually 416 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,920 have a top down and bottom up situation where the 417 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,480 heavenly Jerusalem comes down from Heaven. And then it says 418 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,119 that the kings of all the nations bring the glory. 419 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,599 Speaker 5: Into the heavenly Jerusalem. 420 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,319 Speaker 4: And so what it suggests is that the nations have 421 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,680 a glory that is can be offered up to God. 422 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,920 It's not all of it, not all of their behavior 423 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,000 and not everything about them, but that there's something about 424 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,920 the nations that can become a proper offering to God. 425 00:20:19,559 --> 00:20:21,480 And so anyways, I wanted to see what you think 426 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:22,319 about about that. 427 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:23,559 Speaker 2: It's really interesting, isn't it. 428 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:28,039 Speaker 1: So I'm always very very conflicted on the conversion of 429 00:20:28,039 --> 00:20:29,960 the Roman Empire because the question is how much did 430 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,599 the Christians convert the Romans and how much did the 431 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720 Romans convert the Christians into Romans and imperialists, And actually 432 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,759 a probably a bit of both actually, but anyway, that 433 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:39,279 was that was a long time ago, so that was 434 00:20:39,319 --> 00:20:42,079 what happened. It's really so there are these two images 435 00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:46,279 in the in Revelation. There's Babylon, the earthly whore, basically 436 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,440 the civilized decadence of the humans. And then, as you say, 437 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,079 there is the heavenly Jerusalem, which is given by God. 438 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:53,799 Speaker 2: It comes down. 439 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: And so I think there's really something in what you're saying. 440 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:58,880 And I'm thinking about this a lot. So I think 441 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,559 humans have to build things and make things. 442 00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:02,319 Speaker 2: That's what we do. 443 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,599 Speaker 1: So the way I see this, you can tell me 444 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,119 if you think this is completely offbeam if you look 445 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,519 at the if you look at Genesis, there seems to 446 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:12,240 be only one picture in the Wold of the Bible 447 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,240 of God creating the divine Kingdom, and it's when he 448 00:21:14,279 --> 00:21:15,960 creates the heaven and earth, and then he creates a 449 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,799 garden and he puts us in this garden, and we're 450 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:22,440 effectively divine gardeners. And our job is to name the 451 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,599 animals to be gardeners and to contemplate God. So we're 452 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,440 not living in a wilderness. We're living in a garden. 453 00:21:27,519 --> 00:21:30,160 It's not the same thing. It's a created thing. But 454 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,960 we have a task, and we choose instead of fulfilling 455 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,880 the task of contemplating God until presumably we're ready to 456 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,480 eat the fruit of these trees, which hopefully we will be, 457 00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:42,319 so that we can share in God's work, we decide 458 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:43,960 to listen to the serpent, who says, well, why didn't 459 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,079 you become God's yourself quickly? Because you don't need to 460 00:21:46,079 --> 00:21:48,000 listen to God. You can do it yourself. You can 461 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:50,359 have the power. And so we do that, and then 462 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,279 we have to leave the garden, and the communion's broken. 463 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:54,480 We can't contemplate God anymore. We can't even see God. 464 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,400 We're on this earth and it's fallen, but it's not evil. 465 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,480 It's fallen, and we're in it. And we have to 466 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:03,400 build now because on the earth, if you don't build, 467 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:05,720 if you don't wear clothes, if you don't defend yourself 468 00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:08,680 against tigers, you're going to get eaten pretty quickly because 469 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,200 you're not in the garden of eating anymore. Right, Because 470 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:11,960 in the garden, in the state we're actually created to 471 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,400 be in, we're also in communion with all the creatures. 472 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: They don't hate us. 473 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: I mean, as an aside, one of the stories, one 474 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,279 of the projects I'm working on at the moment is 475 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:21,880 my book of Wild Saints, and I'm really really fascinated 476 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,400 by saints who live in wild places and end up 477 00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:28,559 with a relationship to creatures, which is like the relationship 478 00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:30,279 we had in Eden. So it's possible to get back 479 00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:32,279 there on this earth. Right, So that's what we're supposed 480 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:34,640 to be like, in harmony with Earth, in harmony with God, 481 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:35,640 in harmony with creatures. 482 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: And we can't be like that because we're falling. So 483 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:38,680 we have to build. 484 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: And it seems, as you say that, we keep building 485 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,759 and building and building, and then because we're not building 486 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,960 towards God, we're trying to be God's instead. The technologies 487 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,960 that we use and the cities that we build end 488 00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:51,640 up being corrupted all the time because we're not pointing 489 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,680 them in the right direction. So the question becomes, who 490 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,920 are we actually supposed. 491 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 2: To be serving. We're supposed to be serving God. 492 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: If you build whilst serving God, if you build reasonably 493 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,880 within limits, whilst serving God, you can create beauty and 494 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,039 holy things. You can create a great cathedral, You can 495 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:08,480 create you know, any number of You. 496 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: Can create an icon. 497 00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: You can build a house that you can live in 498 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,240 that's modest, and then you can pray and eat and 499 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:16,400 do the things you do in the house. But all 500 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,519 the time we're endlessly being corrupted. The whole story of 501 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,079 the Bible, the whole story of human history is humans 502 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:24,119 effectively continuing to try and follow the path that the 503 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,440 serpent laid down instead of the path of God. And 504 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,839 when you use technology and civilization and you're building techniques 505 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,079 and our technological brilliance to serve the serpent rather than God. 506 00:23:34,279 --> 00:23:36,319 Speaker 2: You end up with Babylon. So that seems to be 507 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,039 what happens repeatedly. It doesn't. 508 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: But I think you're right. It doesn't follow from that 509 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,400 that everything is even. That we have nothing to offer God, 510 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,839 and therefore we can't build anything. We have to build something. 511 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,119 We're technological animals. We can't live without creating. If we 512 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,240 didn't create, we'd be we'd be dead meat when it's snoked. 513 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,440 So this isn't this is you know, we're not bears, 514 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,079 we don't have savage teeth and fairy coats. 515 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: We have to do this. Our brilliance and. 516 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: Our and our terrible our terrible nature as well is 517 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,920 in technology. So if you build technology to serve the serpent, 518 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,359 which means that effectively we are trying to be as gods, 519 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,599 because that's the offer, then you end up with AI, 520 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:16,160 like you said, right, and AI is us trying to 521 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,799 create gods and effectively trying to turn ourselves, as the 522 00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:22,960 transhumanists want, into immortal beings who will live on other planets, 523 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,359 colonize the universe, and effectively literally be gods. I mean, 524 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,440 these people in Silicon Valley are quite happy just to 525 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,240 say this openly. 526 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:30,839 Speaker 2: They're trying to make God. They talk about it all 527 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:31,119 the time. 528 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: So it seems to me that as you say, you've 529 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,160 got these two points of like you can serve God 530 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,839 and you can try and walk your way back towards God, 531 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,720 which is what Christian life is supposed to be. We're 532 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,039 looking for theosis, we're trying to become saints. I mean, 533 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,440 I can't imagine that happening to me, but you know anything, 534 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,400 the miracles going to happen. This is what we're supposed 535 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,039 to do. This is the story. We're supposed to walk 536 00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:55,279 towards sainthood and use our techniques and our abilities within 537 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,200 limits and reason to do that. Or we can keep 538 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,119 following the offer of the serpent, which is what we 539 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,359 perpetually do. And I think that once you get to 540 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,039 the stage, this would be my critique. I suppose once 541 00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:06,960 you get to the stage of having this giant, top 542 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,319 heavy technological civilization, you're inevitably that the momentum is. 543 00:25:10,319 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: Towards the serpent. That's what you end up. 544 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that within it we can't serve God 545 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,000 and that we have nothing to offer, and that we 546 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,839 can't build Christian cultures within it, because we can. I 547 00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:21,559 think the monastic movements do that. I think Christian communities 548 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,160 do that is individual Christians and the culture serving the 549 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:24,920 poor can do that. 550 00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: We have to do that, actually, But I think that. 551 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: The machine wants to get to this level, if you like, 552 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:33,720 seems to be seems to be the serpent's doing. 553 00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:37,519 Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems that that there's almost like an inevitable 554 00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,400 thing that's moving towards that. You know, in the in Revelation, 555 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,680 it ultimately says that the beast kills the whore, you know, 556 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,559 and that to me is that image of in some 557 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:50,839 ways the machine basically clamping back down. It's like, oh, 558 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:53,880 you know, fun and strangely, I mean it's funny because 559 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,799 it actually it's something that you can experience personally too. 560 00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:58,480 It's like when you give yourself to your passions and 561 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,119 to your sins and then you think that this is freedom, 562 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,480 all of a sudden you realize no, it's like it's 563 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,279 a monster that's enslaving you and that there's no freedom 564 00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:08,480 there anymore. And so that image of the beast can 565 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:10,359 and the whole it is such a powerful, such a 566 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,240 powerful image. And in the image of the heavenly Jerusalem, 567 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,400 you know, it's it seems like it's a rightly ordered 568 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,240 in the way that you said, because in the center 569 00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:21,279 of the city is the garden. You know, you have 570 00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:23,000 the tree and the water of life that's in the 571 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:26,039 middle with the lamb and the Son of Man, which 572 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:29,400 is the light that is shining on the city. But 573 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,960 then on the edge of the city you do have stones. 574 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,839 And it's important to understand for this biblical symbolism what 575 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,880 that is. Referring to the fact that they are carved 576 00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:43,599 stones that like you know, different different metals and stones. 577 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,720 It's important to understand that it is technification. That's what 578 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,799 it represents. That's why the tower Babbel is made of stones. 579 00:26:49,839 --> 00:26:52,960 That's why you know the idols were made of gold. 580 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:56,079 Like all of these things are images of human making 581 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,759 in there, in civilizational making. So you have this order 582 00:26:59,799 --> 00:27:03,400 where where because the guardian is in the center, then 583 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,720 the city becomes glorious like a jewel. Right, it's shining 584 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:11,799 with all this this beauty, and so I think that 585 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,920 gives me hope. You know that it does mean that 586 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:17,920 it doesn't mean it means that the things we do 587 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:22,160 can be offered to God. Now I don't know, like 588 00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:24,680 you said, in some ways, some of those are not 589 00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:27,200 my problem. Like there's some things that I struggle to 590 00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:30,599 understand how they can be offered up, like AI for example, 591 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,559 at this moment, it's not easy to see how ultimately 592 00:27:34,599 --> 00:27:40,160 it's going to serve. And also the other thing I 593 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,599 wanted to say is that that also seems to be. 594 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:44,400 Speaker 5: True in a civilizational way. 595 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,799 Speaker 4: What I see in Christian the best moments of Christian 596 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:53,680 civilization is that the monk or the martyr who gives himself, 597 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:56,880 sacrifices himself for Christ, who lives ever he lives in 598 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,640 a way that really reflects what Christ is saying. That 599 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:06,759 I write that yields civilization like it yields families. When 600 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,319 a lot of people say, well, if everybody lived the 601 00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:11,359 way Jesus says, then there would be no people, right 602 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,640 if we were all like living as monks up on 603 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,440 the mountain, and then all the sthetics or whatever, the 604 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:19,839 civilation would stop. But that's not what happens. There's a 605 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,599 normal hierarchy that sets itself up where these characters become 606 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,559 like beacons, and in their sacrifice it yields families with 607 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,400 ten kids, and you know, and and this kind of 608 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480 abundance at the at the bottom. But again, the mistake 609 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,200 is to think that that's the that we can weaponize, 610 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,000 that that we can make it happen. 611 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: I think that's the key. I think that's the key. 612 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:46,519 Speaker 1: So it seems to me that the root of Christian 613 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:53,200 culture is Christians, right, actual Christians who are not probably 614 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,359 people like me who say where Christians and technically are, 615 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:57,920 but people actually living like Christians. And as you say, 616 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,839 there's this paradox again, there's that Christian and Cohen again, right, 617 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,880 this weird paradox where the first will be last and 618 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,799 the last will be first. And God's wisdom is not 619 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:06,559 the wisdom of the world. And Christ is always saying 620 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:08,519 these things that make absolutely no sense at all in 621 00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:10,880 worldly terms, and you think, I can't live like that. 622 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,839 What is he even talking about? And so did most 623 00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:15,119 of his followers, right, Obviously they leave him before the end. 624 00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:17,400 He only ends up with twelve people after he's told 625 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,720 them to drink his blood and eats his body. That 626 00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:22,440 most of them say he's crazy, off they go because 627 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,799 it makes no sense in the world's terms. And yet 628 00:29:24,839 --> 00:29:27,359 when these people do these things that make no sense 629 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,559 in the world's terms, they end up building a culture 630 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200 almost by accident, because but if they'd set out to 631 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,200 do that, it would have been a disaster. If you'd 632 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,720 set out to say, right, let's build a Christian civilization everyone, 633 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:41,359 and let's make it look like this, and we're going 634 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,359 to have this technology in these tools, and we're going 635 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:43,759 to live. 636 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,039 Speaker 2: This way Christian civilized. There's a quote I used in 637 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:47,359 the talk. 638 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,559 Speaker 1: It's from Hillary White, the Liturgical Artists, and she said 639 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,519 Christian civilization is a secondary fruit of Christian mysticism. 640 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: And I thought that was exactly what was going on. It's, 641 00:29:57,759 --> 00:29:58,799 you know, the Desert. 642 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: Father, Saint Anthony creates the entire monastic movement by accident 643 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:04,240 because he wants to try and live the way Christ 644 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,799 told him to live, and so he gives everything away 645 00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:07,160 and goes off to live in a tomb, which is 646 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,319 certifiable behavior. 647 00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 2: You know, if you did it today, they'd section you. 648 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,119 Speaker 1: But that leads to the Christian monastic movement, but not 649 00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,160 because he intended it to, because he intended to try 650 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160 and follow Christ. So it says if it's that if 651 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,599 you actually make the sacrifice and live with that intense humility, 652 00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:25,279 things happen because God makes them happen. 653 00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: That's how it seems to me. 654 00:30:26,599 --> 00:30:29,039 Speaker 1: Whereas if you try with your own will to create 655 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:31,480 some kind of civilization with a cross painted on it, 656 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,759 you end up with the opposite. Because the devil is 657 00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:37,400 the prince of this world. Which is another thing that 658 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:40,160 keeps popping up in the Gospels all the time, you know, 659 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680 the devil says, this world has been given over to me. 660 00:30:43,279 --> 00:30:45,599 So all of the worldly projects, if they're not, if 661 00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:48,079 they don't come from this kind of radical renunciation that 662 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,519 Christ teaches, they end up being the devil's projects. 663 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 2: That's how it seems. So the weird paradox. 664 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: Is we have to give everything away, give everything up, 665 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,640 and try to live in this mendicant way, and then 666 00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:00,920 God gives us what we need to build a culture. 667 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:01,799 Speaker 2: That's how it seems. 668 00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:04,519 Speaker 1: And as I say, then I just keep going around 669 00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:07,519 this going around in my head because I'm not living 670 00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:08,000 like that. 671 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: So I don't know what that means, but it's this 672 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,079 is this is the challenge. It seems to be. That 673 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:14,359 seems to be the way it works. 674 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 4: I think, I mean, I think you're absolutely right, and 675 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:21,480 we can find many examples in the Bible, but also 676 00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:25,200 in the tradition. Like there's an interesting, interesting paradox, even 677 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,799 in the case of the Life of san Antony, which 678 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,240 is that we always have to remember that the person 679 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,119 who wrote the Life of sant Anthony is is Saint Athanasius, right, 680 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,839 Saint Athanasius, who, under the protection of Constantine basically, you know, 681 00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:43,680 defended Homousios as the as the orthodox position, and and 682 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:49,200 and and the council that basically, you know, structured the 683 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,400 way that Christians think today. So I'm not saying that 684 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,799 that it's that it's Constantine that led the council, and 685 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,759 the fathers were really cautious about that because one of 686 00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:00,240 the things we don't realize is that that the very 687 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,559 first council there was a chair. You know, if you 688 00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:05,319 know the story, there was a there was a throne 689 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,119 in absentia for Constantine because. 690 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 5: He didn't go to the council all the time. 691 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 4: So there was like this throne in absentia for Constantine, 692 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,640 and that really bothered some of the fathers. And so 693 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,079 during the second Council, they put the Gospel on the 694 00:32:19,119 --> 00:32:20,960 throne and it was a way to say, no, it's 695 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,359 like it's actually Christ that's ruling over this council. So 696 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,200 this tension, right, it was there in the sense, and 697 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,160 maybe that is the best way to understand what it 698 00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:33,480 is the best aspect of what Constantine did, for example, 699 00:32:33,519 --> 00:32:37,440 which is that he didn't we hope that he didn't direct, 700 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,440 he didn't direct the theological thought, but he was able 701 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,319 to create a frame around it, then protect those that 702 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,559 were doing it, you know. So you can imagine that 703 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,000 the good role of one of the roles of the 704 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,799 king would be to protect the monastery, you know, because 705 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:56,319 the monks don't protect themselves. And so it's like, oh, 706 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,440 you guys, sacrifice yourselves completely, live that way, and I'm 707 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,559 going to be downstream from you, and I'm gonna, you know, 708 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:06,240 if I can, I'll stop the pirates from coming to 709 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:08,880 from coming to kill you. And so it's like this 710 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,720 weird There's a story. My brother told me the story 711 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,559 a long time ago. It's actually is related to Zen. 712 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,279 It was this story of these two kung Fu swords, 713 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:18,759 and I forget the name of the sword, sorry for 714 00:33:18,799 --> 00:33:21,279 people watching, but that there were these two swords, and 715 00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:24,119 like the greatest sword that was in the kung Fu 716 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,960 world was the sword that if you put the sword 717 00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:30,440 in water, all the pieces twigs and pieces of like 718 00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:34,160 of grass would avoid the sword. And so like you 719 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,799 put the sword in water, and then everything the sword 720 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:38,160 in the water would just go around it and avoid it. 721 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:41,759 And the second most powerful sword was the sword that 722 00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:43,359 when you put it in the water, all the twigs 723 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:46,480 would come and break against the sword, and so there's 724 00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:51,079 this idea that in some ways in action yields action, 725 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,079 but it has to be in the right order, right, 726 00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:56,200 It's like, there is room for kings that defend people, 727 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,480 but they have to be rooted, and they have to 728 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,039 be rooted something true, something higher than them. A relative 729 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,960 just becomes or real, it just becomes power and just 730 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,119 becomes you know whatever. 731 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it's very true. 732 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean there's there's this always this tension right the 733 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,559 heart of Christianity and every other faith that I know 734 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:14,000 of as well. 735 00:34:14,039 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: It's always the same thing. 736 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: What are you going to do about the world being 737 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,480 full of violence? Because it is full of violence? How 738 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:23,800 do you actually respond to that? And Christ tells you 739 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,039 not to resist evil? And that's and you know, it's 740 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,960 it's very difficult to understand how to live that. That's 741 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,559 the greatest for me, that's the greatest challenge. And yeah, 742 00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:36,639 you're right about that. I mean, it's what do you 743 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:38,480 do with the kings? The kings aren't going anywhere, so 744 00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:40,320 do you sacralize the kings or do you let the 745 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,039 kings rampage around? And this is you know, that's that's 746 00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:46,679 always the paradox. But again that still comes from that 747 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,119 mysticism doesn't because the monastics get to the point and 748 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:50,840 the church gets to the point where the king becomes 749 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,320 interested in them. You know, it's a very interesting question 750 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,840 to me. Why did Constantine want to become a Christian? 751 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,199 Why was he suddenly interested in this religion? What's going 752 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,960 on there? It's off him something through what it's doing 753 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,039 because of the way that it's not because it's giving 754 00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:08,320 him power, or there's something about these people and this 755 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,280 faith that is attracting even the Roman emperor, you know, 756 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,559 so because they've been Christians. And so it's like I 757 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:16,960 said at the end of the tried to say at 758 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,400 the end of the talk, it's like, if we want 759 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,719 a Christian culture back, because we haven't got one now, 760 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,519 we just have to try and live like humble Christians 761 00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:27,559 and then it will happen in God's time. 762 00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:29,639 Speaker 2: It's not that we you know, some. 763 00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: People reacting to the talk have said, well, kings not 764 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:34,400 thinks we should just do nothing and let the world 765 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,280 burn it. That's a critique I get quite a lot, 766 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,119 and I can understand it, but it's not the point. 767 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:41,079 It's not there's no option to do nothing. You know, 768 00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:43,039 we're all doing something here. We are doing a thing 769 00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:45,960 right now. The question is what you do. You know, 770 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,239 building a monastery is doing something. Living in a Christian 771 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,880 household is doing something. Writing a book is doing something. 772 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,079 Running the symbolic world is doing something. We're all doing things. 773 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,360 It's a question of what we're doing. And then if 774 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,159 we just try to do them with that attempt to 775 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:03,840 approach that Christian humility, then I think things happen from there, 776 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,400 things grow out from there. That's how Christian cultures get 777 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:12,000 built because people are at their best, people are attracted 778 00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:14,559 to Christians. At their worst, people are repelled by Christians, right, 779 00:36:14,559 --> 00:36:17,800 But at their best, people are attracted to Christians. And 780 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,599 we've come out of a period in our culture where 781 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:23,239 people have become very repelled by Christians, partly because of 782 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,679 things the Church is definitely actually done, and partly because 783 00:36:26,679 --> 00:36:29,519 of the kind of the whole campaign of modernity is 784 00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:32,320 against God and against the Christian Church, which has been 785 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,239 made a villain in any number of things. But for 786 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,719 whatever reason, the Church has been turned into a villain. 787 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,679 And so what do you do about that? Well, you 788 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,679 have to just again, the more corrupt and decadent and 789 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,199 horrible the culture gets, the more actual Christians are going 790 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,559 to be really attractive because they are well, you know, 791 00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:51,480 if you ever meet a holy person, you're really drawn 792 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,239 towards them. You can sense it and you want to 793 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:54,920 go there and you want to be with that person, 794 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,039 and that's what changes the world. It seems to me 795 00:36:58,360 --> 00:36:59,400 that kind of holiness. 796 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:01,039 Speaker 5: I agree. 797 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,519 Speaker 4: I Another image that comes to me is the image 798 00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:07,199 of the seed that Christ uses himself, you know, you know, 799 00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:10,320 he makes it clear that in order for any fruit 800 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,679 to grow, the origin of that is death, Like the 801 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,840 seed has to die, if the seed, if the seed 802 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,960 does not die, then it doesn't produce fruit. And I 803 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,079 think that that's some ways the image. It's like you 804 00:37:21,119 --> 00:37:24,239 can't fake that. You can't say, well, I just want 805 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:24,639 the fruit. 806 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,039 Speaker 5: I don't want to die. Well that's not going to happen. 807 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 4: So Jesus says die Like that's putting you know, that 808 00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:31,239 skin in the game. 809 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,519 Speaker 5: That's not that's not something that you can do utility 810 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,239 with utility, like just with utilitarian thinking. 811 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 4: It actually is has to be a real self sacrifice 812 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,920 because you you're aimed at the highest thing, and then 813 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,880 out of that the fruit will be communion and etcetera. 814 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,159 Speaker 5: Etcetera that comes out of it. 815 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,039 Speaker 4: And you know, and I think that, and I think 816 00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:54,119 a lot of the people maybe that listen to the talk, 817 00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:56,800 we're afraid in some way that you were, because we 818 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,000 have you know, radical and Baptist types who who will 819 00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:04,199 take what you say and put it very very far 820 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,840 where they they obviously don't like any type of structure. 821 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,599 Speaker 5: They think all structure is evil. 822 00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 4: That that that church buildings are evil in themselves. You know, 823 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:16,519 that kind of like radical idea, that that even the 824 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,199 the the building of beautiful of beautiful things is is 825 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,920 horrible just for all those reasons. 826 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,159 Speaker 5: But that's not what I hear from you. 827 00:38:26,159 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 4: You know, there's a there's a story of Justinian, a 828 00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:31,639 beautiful story of Justinian where Justinian, when you built hi Yasaphia, 829 00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:35,719 he wanted to make the doors of the I think 830 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,119 it was the doors of either the church or of the. 831 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 5: Y aak noistasis. He wanted to make them into pure gold. 832 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,199 Speaker 4: And the patriarch of Constantinople said, he said, okay, you 833 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,119 can make them out of pure gold, but if there's 834 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,840 just one beggar left in Constantinople after you've done that, 835 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,679 you'll have to you'll have to have account for that, 836 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,800 like you'll have to account for that. And so because 837 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,400 of that, he didn't make them gold. I think he 838 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,440 made them a lesser like silver or something like a 839 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:02,719 lesser met up because he there was this tension, like 840 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,119 exactly the tension that you're saying. It's like he's like, yes, 841 00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:07,039 it's okay to make a beautiful thing for God. But 842 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,960 it happened, and Saint John Christist I'm had similar statements 843 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,280 where he's like, give to the poor and then if 844 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,519 there's gold left, make gold chandeliers. 845 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: Well this is it, yeah, John, Because ostoin is a 846 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,840 great example of this. I mean he was so incredibly 847 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,519 radical in his preaching that he ended up being exiled 848 00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:26,519 and effectively condemned because he focused on the rich, including 849 00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:28,320 the empress, which turned out to be a bad idea. 850 00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:30,719 But he was, you know, he was being a Christian 851 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,639 and he was a bishop and he was you know, 852 00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:35,320 I'm an Orthodox Christian like you, So you know, I'm 853 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,239 not in a position to that I want to start 854 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,760 attacking institutions or buildings because if I did, I wouldn't 855 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,320 be Orthodox. And you need to live in that tension. 856 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,519 But the buildings that the buildings have to serve God. 857 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,360 And as you say, it seems to be a pretty 858 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,920 good deal that you're allowed to have a golden door 859 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,880 when you've fed the poor, but not before, right, because 860 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,639 this is this is this is the point of the 861 00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:57,199 whole thing. It's when I was on Mount Athos yielded 862 00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:01,039 to a go I visited Elderpaesios hisself. I don't know 863 00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:03,719 if you've ever been there, but it's a tiny little 864 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,400 house and it has two rooms in it. One room 865 00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:09,079 was his bedroom and the other room was a tiny 866 00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:12,320 little church with a tiny chonostasis, and you can go 867 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:13,199 into this room now. 868 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 2: And see it. 869 00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:16,519 Speaker 1: And you know, you can go into glorious Orthodox cathedrals 870 00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:19,039 and they're covered in these enormous icons and they're very stunning. 871 00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:21,840 And Elder Pacios's church is just a tiny, little wooden thing. 872 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,079 And the only two icons he's got the ones that 873 00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:26,800 he drew himself, because he had a vision of Christ 874 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,079 and he met Mary the Theotokos, and he drew what 875 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:32,639 they both looked like, and they almost looked like child's drawings, 876 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,280 and then he just pinned them up on the wood. 877 00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:36,280 And that was one of the most beautiful churches I've 878 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,519 ever seen. So there's a form of beauty that can 879 00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:42,480 be done very simply. It's not a question of, you know, 880 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:44,480 we don't have to go to the extreme where either 881 00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:49,119 we're building gold churches everywhere or where all building. 882 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 2: Is evil and we must do nothing. 883 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: Again, it comes down to that question of to me, 884 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:55,559 same question we're asking with technology, who does this serve? 885 00:40:56,199 --> 00:40:58,159 And one of my limits and am I doing this 886 00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:01,320 aesthetically in far of God and in love of God 887 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,360 after I've fed the poor? Or am I just effectively 888 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,840 following the path of civilization. 889 00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: And it's like there's a. 890 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,039 Speaker 1: Very fine line there, and if you fall over that line, 891 00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:11,519 then suddenly your church isn't very different to the skyscraper, 892 00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:14,079 and there's beggars sitting on the steps, and then you 893 00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:16,119 know Jesus is going to come and point out exactly 894 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,480 well the problem there is, just as he did in 895 00:41:18,519 --> 00:41:22,000 the Temple. So it's always that fine line needs And 896 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:23,920 like I said, I don't think you can live in 897 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,199 this world without building, and you have to build to 898 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,760 the glory of God. And because I'm Orthodox, and this 899 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,119 is why I became Orthodox, one reason I think we 900 00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:32,800 need the church. 901 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 2: We need the structures. 902 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,199 Speaker 1: We need the teaching, we need the tradition, otherwise we 903 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,000 get the kind of craziness of ten thousand Protestant sects 904 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,320 a minute popping up in America because no one can 905 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,159 agree on what the Bible means, you know, And so 906 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,400 I believe in that. But it's like I think, you 907 00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:51,280 need always this self correcting mechanism all the time. And 908 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,519 that's what I think that the monastics often are at 909 00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:55,480 their best, you know, the monastics and the hermits and 910 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,000 the poor Christians who are trying to live a simple life, 911 00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:03,440 always the correcting the emperor. The emperor needs them otherwise 912 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,519 otherwise he's just another emperor. And there's always I don't 913 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:08,280 know whether you can ever. 914 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny what you said is that's exactly what 915 00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:13,000 I see. 916 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 5: That's the role that I see that you're playing, too. 917 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 4: Like when I saw the talk, I thought right away, 918 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,280 I thought, this is this is perfect, Like this is 919 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,320 actually the right call that we need to remind ourselves 920 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:27,440 why we're doing what we're doing, or whatever it is 921 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,880 we're doing, to remember what it is and to be 922 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,639 careful of the dangers, you know, And and you know 923 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,000 that in some ways I'm far more in the world 924 00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:40,400 of cultural Christians. You know that I found myself in 925 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,079 that world and I and I feel that I feel 926 00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:46,239 the attention too. I'm always asking myself and that's why 927 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:47,800 I was attracted to what you said. I'm like, I'm 928 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,880 always asking myself, Okay, what is this serving? You know? 929 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,239 And it's hard, by the way, and you probably have 930 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:54,840 an similar experience. 931 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 6: You know. 932 00:42:55,519 --> 00:42:57,039 Speaker 5: You you make these videos, you. 933 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 4: Get attention, you get likes, you get you know, you 934 00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:02,480 get people supporting what you're doing. And so it's like 935 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,679 the man that the the temptation is right there all 936 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:07,960 the time constantly. 937 00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, build build your brow exactly. 938 00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:13,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so it's like you need but it's like 939 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,639 it's like you need a banner, right, you need a 940 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:18,000 symbolic WORL banner, and so well as well make it 941 00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:21,920 beautiful and then then what like does it? Yeah, it's 942 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,880 a it's a it's definitely something that that I struggle with. 943 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,639 But it's also I think it's very useful and very 944 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:33,639 powerful that we're reminded of that constantly, Like just remember, remember, 945 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,599 remember why you're doing what you're doing, you know, and 946 00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:38,639 remember your first love too. That's a good way of 947 00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:42,360 thinking about it is that even though at the outset 948 00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:45,199 the things that sparked some of the things we're doing 949 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,760 might have been pure, doesn't mean that it remains that 950 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,480 way all the time. 951 00:43:48,559 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 5: Sometimes we can get kind of twisted and turned away. 952 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 1: So okay, Well, what's really interesting is how easy is 953 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,880 to make idols of things really easily. And it's really 954 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,760 easy to make an idol of Jesus. It's really easy 955 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,840 to make an idol of the church and to create 956 00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:04,800 a shape for them that happens to suit you, just 957 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,760 like it's really easy to create an idol for the culture. 958 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:08,679 Speaker 6: You know. 959 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,119 Speaker 1: There's a quote from Christopher lash I keep using in 960 00:44:11,159 --> 00:44:13,760 my writing, and he says, God, not culture, is the 961 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,320 only appropriate focus of your worship. 962 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 2: And it's really really easy. 963 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,079 Speaker 1: People are always getting attached to their cultures, which is 964 00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:20,760 completely normal. 965 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 2: Right of course, we're attached to our cultures. 966 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,079 Speaker 1: We've we come from a place, we like that place, 967 00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:26,320 we don't want it to be destroyed. We have protective 968 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,440 feelings towards it. This is normal human staff. But it's 969 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,719 not Christ and it's not God. And if you start 970 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,960 thinking that your culture is Christ just because it has 971 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,360 some churches in it, the question. 972 00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 2: Is what the churches are doing and what you're doing? 973 00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: And as I say, is this is me asking myself 974 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,480 this question because I'm not actually in any legitimate position 975 00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:48,400 to stand up and hold the culture to account, because 976 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,320 because I'm not a holy man, right so, But somebody 977 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,840 said something interesting to me after the talk actually, which 978 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,639 really stuck with me. They said, it's aren't we lucky 979 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,000 that the Gospels were written down just a few decades 980 00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:02,719 after Christ by people who knew him, because if they 981 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,760 hadn't been, you can bet your life that later Christians 982 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,119 would have watered them down because they're so incredibly radical 983 00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:11,199 and challenging that we don't want to hear them. 984 00:45:11,199 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 2: And I think there's something to that. 985 00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:15,639 Speaker 1: It's like we've always got the Gospels to go back 986 00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:18,239 to when we need a kind of reality check on 987 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,199 what we're actually supposed to be doing here, and then 988 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:20,599 we go. 989 00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 2: Back and we say, ah, yeah, I'm off the mark 990 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:24,880 again for the fiftieth time today. 991 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: And you know, it's that seems to be what's what 992 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,159 we need to do all the time. In Eldopaesios again 993 00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:33,920 I quoted him in the talk. He said he was 994 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,920 a radio operator in the Greek Civil War, and he 995 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,679 used this metaphor. He said, if you want to hear 996 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,960 God and speak to God, you have to tune your 997 00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:44,000 radio dial to humility, because that's the frequency of which 998 00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:46,440 He always operates in. And if we ask ourselves if 999 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,760 we're actually doing that, then certainly, for me, most of 1000 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,719 the time, ninety nine percent of the time, the answer 1001 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,039 is no. So that's what that's the dial in which 1002 00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:58,199 we can kind of hear, the frequency that's telling us 1003 00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,280 where we're supposed to walk. 1004 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 2: I suppose, Yeah. 1005 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's and what you said, it's the grand 1006 00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:06,159 inquisitor to some example, it's some extent, you know, it's 1007 00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:08,519 like that problem that Jesus is so bothersome. 1008 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, every time I read the Gospel. 1009 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,199 Speaker 5: It's so annoying. Yeah, what is he doing? 1010 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 2: He's ruining my Christianity exactly. 1011 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,400 Speaker 5: And that's that's absolutely true. 1012 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 4: I think that you know, you mentioned this scene in 1013 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,320 our discussion now, but they made a movie version of 1014 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,000 the Gospel of John recently. I don't know when I 1015 00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:32,360 was watching with my family, and you know, there's that 1016 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,119 scene where he tells people that if you don't eat 1017 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,199 my flesh and drink my blood, then you can't enter 1018 00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:39,199 the kingdom. And I never realized when I read the 1019 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,119 text that it was in public, that it wasn't like 1020 00:46:41,159 --> 00:46:43,519 with his disciples, that it was like in front of everyone. 1021 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,119 Speaker 5: And he just says that in front of. 1022 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,559 Speaker 4: The Pharisees and in front of all these people, and 1023 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:50,039 then you think, well, of course people ran away, Like 1024 00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:52,400 this is the craziest thing in the world, to say, 1025 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,000 we have the luck of we have the chance of retrospect, 1026 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,280 of seeing him resurrected, to be able to look back 1027 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:03,679 at some of the really wild, crazy things that he said. Uh, 1028 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,599 and it's only in that light that we can that 1029 00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:08,800 we can say, Okay, well, I can't digest this, but 1030 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,039 I have to because I'm convinced by the power of 1031 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:13,039 the of the of. 1032 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 5: The resurrection, you know. But yeah, it's it's it's it's 1033 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:16,519 very difficult. 1034 00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 2: This is, like I said, it's a Cohen. 1035 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,519 Speaker 1: I think hopefully, hopefully after death we get to understand 1036 00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:22,599 what was going on properly. 1037 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 2: You know, this is down here. We're still we're chewing 1038 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,199 on it. We're chewing on it all the time and 1039 00:47:26,199 --> 00:47:27,800 trying to trying to think. 1040 00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:30,079 Speaker 4: Even in the story of Jesus, there is this image 1041 00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:31,960 that of the of the seed and the fruit. And 1042 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,480 I think that the image of the cross and the 1043 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,719 heavenly Jerusalem is a good way of thinking about it. 1044 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,840 Or even in the image of the heavenly Jerusalem, you 1045 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,639 have the lamb and the son of Man, and so 1046 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,079 you have this image of the humility of the seed 1047 00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:50,400 that is planted. And then you do have the image 1048 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,800 of Christ as a as a king. You know, you 1049 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,760 do have this image of Christ as a. 1050 00:47:54,519 --> 00:47:56,639 Speaker 5: As a as a as. 1051 00:47:56,519 --> 00:48:00,119 Speaker 4: A regal figure that is ruling over the world justly 1052 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,880 because of him also being the sacrifice. No, and that's 1053 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,239 the reason, the reason why he can be our king 1054 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,119 and can rule over us in with all the image, 1055 00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:14,559 all the pageantry, all the imagery of civilization is because 1056 00:48:15,079 --> 00:48:18,440 that it's rooted in his in his kenosis at the outset. 1057 00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, so who is the king. 1058 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 1: The king is the barefoot carpenter who the authority is killed, 1059 00:48:23,119 --> 00:48:25,119 who preached things that at the time seemed to many 1060 00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:29,880 people to be completely mad, but were transformed, like you say, 1061 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,079 through the sacrifice, through the self sacrifice, into what kingship 1062 00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:36,519 actually is supposed to look like. You know, that's exactly 1063 00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:39,760 it is that without the sacrifice, which is the same 1064 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,840 thing as the humility, I suppose, or least the humility 1065 00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:42,679 the sacrifice. 1066 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,079 Speaker 2: Without that, you haven't got anything. 1067 00:48:45,119 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: You've just got a you've got a similar acroum of 1068 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,960 a thing called power. Christianity, You've got power. You've got power, 1069 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,079 and you can paint your cross on on on power, 1070 00:48:52,119 --> 00:48:54,880 but it's still power. It's the it's the beast, it's 1071 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,800 the serpent, it's the prince of this world. It's not Christ. 1072 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,559 And we just have to be really careful to confuse 1073 00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:03,280 those two things. And we perpetually do it. And I 1074 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:04,960 do it as well. It's easy to do. But if 1075 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,280 we do it, it's like that's the tricks. Like the 1076 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,400 adversary is just standing there waiting for us to fall 1077 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,920 into that trap again, and we do. 1078 00:49:12,039 --> 00:49:13,039 Speaker 2: We keep falling into it. 1079 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:15,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we do it, like you said, we do 1080 00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:17,920 it at every single level. We do it as much 1081 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,039 in our own personal life as we do it's are 1082 00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:25,000 in our parishes or in our in our societies, you know, 1083 00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:28,239 And and so what do you see Let's say, you. 1084 00:49:28,159 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 5: Know, for example, like one of the things. 1085 00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:34,039 Speaker 4: I I do love and I care about is like 1086 00:49:34,079 --> 00:49:37,159 that is the celebration of our stories. For example, like 1087 00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:39,119 this is something that I've I've kind of taken on, 1088 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,400 you know, and I think Martin shaw Is also can 1089 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,000 take on is to kind of help people remind, you know, 1090 00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:50,079 remind people of these stories. And there is in that way, 1091 00:49:50,159 --> 00:49:53,480 like I really do feel the sense of care for 1092 00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:59,119 my story, like a care for my civilizational place, and 1093 00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:02,440 I and I have the sense that there's some importance 1094 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,119 in I'm trying to like, I'm trying to say, I 1095 00:50:06,159 --> 00:50:08,480 think we can see Christ in these in these stories, 1096 00:50:08,519 --> 00:50:10,360 and that's the best way to look at them, you know, 1097 00:50:10,559 --> 00:50:12,960 like the fairy tales and all that. But I'm curious 1098 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,960 of what you think about that, because you know, let's say, 1099 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,519 one of the things that even in like this kind 1100 00:50:19,519 --> 00:50:22,800 of remembering of the ancient stories of the wild Christians, 1101 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,639 of the of the saints, there is this like we 1102 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,199 want to celebrate that which brought us where we are today, 1103 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,280 you know, we that's part of how we hold together. 1104 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,480 And so how do you see that balanced out? Let's say, 1105 00:50:35,679 --> 00:50:38,360 what's your approach to how to balance that with the 1106 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:39,239 danger of pride. 1107 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,639 Speaker 5: Let's say you're. 1108 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,039 Speaker 1: Talking about like the stories of the culture more broadly 1109 00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:44,239 or specific Yeah, Well. 1110 00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 4: I mean, for example, are the histories of our nations 1111 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,480 or you know, even the stories of the saints, or 1112 00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:54,400 like I'm doing, I'm kind of revisiting the fairy tales, uh, 1113 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,280 the foundation stories, all of these, all of these aspects. 1114 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,079 Like we have this whole aspect of our podcast, which 1115 00:50:59,119 --> 00:51:01,599 we call Universal His where we are going back and 1116 00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:05,920 trying to show the Christian you know, root of Scandinavian culture, 1117 00:51:06,039 --> 00:51:09,000 of English culture, of all these different cultures to say, 1118 00:51:09,039 --> 00:51:11,480 you like, there are ways in which this connects together, 1119 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,880 and so how do you I'm just curious, Like I 1120 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,159 don't have a solution. 1121 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:15,960 Speaker 5: I'm just asking. 1122 00:51:16,039 --> 00:51:19,480 Speaker 1: It's a really good question. So I've thinking listening to that. 1123 00:51:19,519 --> 00:51:21,840 I've got a couple of thoughts. So I'm probably as 1124 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,280 interested as you in that. I mean, I'm a history 1125 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:25,840 nerd and I have been all my life, and that's 1126 00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:27,480 why I write weird historical novels. 1127 00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:29,639 Speaker 2: And I just I'm fasciy. 1128 00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:31,760 Speaker 1: I wander around looking at holy wells and writing about them, 1129 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,760 you know, because I just I just love the culture 1130 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,079 manifested in the landscape, which we have so much off 1131 00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:38,360 in Europe going back so long. It's just it's a 1132 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,360 kind of embarrassment of riches and I'm as since, certainly 1133 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,519 since I've became a Christian, I'm more and more interested 1134 00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:48,440 in the Christian foundation of my country, which is England, 1135 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,559 and the country I live in now, which is Ireland, 1136 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,119 and how that manifested in the landscape, how that built 1137 00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:56,159 the people. So all of this is there, and I 1138 00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:59,039 think it's there to be rediscovered, and I think especially 1139 00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:02,440 the early Christian state, which really interests me, especially here 1140 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,320 in Ireland, because I'm fascinated by the possibility that the 1141 00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,360 first Christians in Ireland are actually from Egypt. I'm fascinated 1142 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,559 by this theory that the desert Fathers effectively sent people 1143 00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:14,599 up here, and there's plenty of evidence for this, and 1144 00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:18,960 so the foundation of Irish Christianity, which then becomes British Christianity, 1145 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,960 actually is the desert Christianity of Egypt rather than the 1146 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,199 kind of civilized center. So obviously this appeals to me. 1147 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,480 You know, this floats my boat. But this is why 1148 00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:29,239 this country is full of caves that hermits used to 1149 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,159 live in and the rest of it. So I'm really 1150 00:52:31,199 --> 00:52:33,280 fascinated by that, and it's why i keep writing about 1151 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,280 the Saints, and it's why I write about the Holy Wells. 1152 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,880 And it's not just because I'm just a history of 1153 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,800 nerd and I find that interesting. It's because I think 1154 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,639 we've got something to learn from this, because I think 1155 00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:46,239 that this is my intuition, and maybe it's tron and 1156 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,159 people will disagree, but I have a feeling that the 1157 00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:50,239 West itself needs to die. 1158 00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:52,280 Speaker 2: In fact, I think it may already have died. 1159 00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: Actually, this thing we call the West is a sacrifice 1160 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,440 and is being sacrificed so that the plant can die 1161 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,719 so the seeds grow, exactly as you were talking earlier, Right, 1162 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,000 you don't get the growth without the sacrifice. And I 1163 00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:07,199 think we've got to such a point where we have 1164 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:12,440 created a culture that is irreligious and babylon like and 1165 00:53:12,519 --> 00:53:15,440 top heavy, and it's just fading away. And I don't 1166 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,199 mean that there should be a giant catastrophe or we 1167 00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:19,079 should destroy it or anything like that. I just think 1168 00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:22,599 that it's dying, if it's not already gone, and we 1169 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:24,519 have to let that happen because it's not going to 1170 00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:27,079 be stoppable at this point. And instead of doing that, 1171 00:53:27,119 --> 00:53:30,400 instead of like fighting to protect X, Y and Z 1172 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,000 aspects of the superstructure, we can go back to the 1173 00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:36,239 root of the culture and write about that instead and 1174 00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,440 build that and protect that. So it's not an all 1175 00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:40,519 or nothing situation. We don't say, oh, the West is 1176 00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:43,719 in trouble, let's let everything burn like the joker, you know. 1177 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,599 But at the same time, we don't say, well, let's 1178 00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:48,599 get out there and fight for our right to form 1179 00:53:48,639 --> 00:53:50,079 transnational corporations and. 1180 00:53:51,639 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 2: Have economic growth forever and ever. 1181 00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:55,800 Speaker 1: In mind the asteroids with Ellen Musk, right, that's not 1182 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,880 anything to do with what we're talking about. Why don't 1183 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,199 we step back from that battle at the moment, which 1184 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,719 is going on anyway, and go back to our roots, 1185 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,400 which we'll find in those stories. You know, how did 1186 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,559 these Let's tell the stories of the saints, let's tell 1187 00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:12,159 the fairy tales and you let's go and write about 1188 00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:14,159 how Christianity manifests in the landscape. 1189 00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,679 Speaker 2: And let's do that not with a plan in mind that. 1190 00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:18,719 Speaker 1: This is going to build a civilization, but just because 1191 00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,159 we think it's the thing we need to do and will, 1192 00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:22,159 then things will happen. 1193 00:54:22,199 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 6: You know. 1194 00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:24,719 Speaker 1: Stories, I'm with you, you know, you know what I think 1195 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,239 about this. Stories are the way that we navigate reality. 1196 00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:31,199 This was the really actually, funnily enough, this is what 1197 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,760 I'm saying now is almost a Christian version of what 1198 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,440 we did at the Dark Mountain Project about fifteen years ago. 1199 00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:38,239 And I was certainly wasn't a Christian at the time, 1200 00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,079 but that was a project which said, look, this whole 1201 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,880 modern machine is creaking and crashing, and instead of fighting 1202 00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,000 over it, let's go back to the roots and examine 1203 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,239 where the stories went wrong and tell some of the 1204 00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,280 correct stories instead, Because I think the root of a 1205 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,880 civilization that's gone wrong is a story that's gone wrong, 1206 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,000 and so let's tell the right ones. And you're right, 1207 00:54:57,079 --> 00:54:59,880 then that actually becomes to me a really exciting thing 1208 00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:02,480 to do. You know, it's not doom, lad, and it's 1209 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,119 not it's not a cultural war. It's not about anger 1210 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,719 or or giving up or anything. It's like, yeah, let's 1211 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,760 go back to the desert in a way, in a 1212 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,800 good way, and see what happens if we do that. 1213 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,800 Let's tell the stories, and let's dig out these old 1214 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,760 stories that no one knows about of what our ancestors did, 1215 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,840 not so that we can copy them exactly, but just 1216 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,639 so that we can listen to them and be inspired 1217 00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,280 by them and they'll act on us. So I think 1218 00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,920 that's the I think that's the way or a way 1219 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,119 forward that is exciting for storytellers especially. 1220 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, man, I think I think I felt this. 1221 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,039 Speaker 4: I felt this this problem so many times, you know, 1222 00:55:40,199 --> 00:55:43,440 in terms of even in terms of my own engagements. 1223 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,760 You know, I worked in Africa for seven years, you know, 1224 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,000 and working with artisans and it was wonderful, but there 1225 00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:52,719 were definitely moments because I was helping the artisans to 1226 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,880 you know, to sell their their things and maybe you know, 1227 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,039 to connect the Western markets, and there was always this 1228 00:55:59,159 --> 00:56:02,840 ambiguity even in my soul, you know, and you see it, 1229 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,199 you see it manifested. For example, like this is going 1230 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:07,440 to be controversial with some people. It's like between North 1231 00:56:07,519 --> 00:56:10,719 Korea and South Korea. It's like these two places, and 1232 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,800 then it's like North Korea is this horrible, horrible place 1233 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,239 you know that is just you know, extremely trannical and 1234 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,880 controlling and everything, and it's like, you know, we should 1235 00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:19,360 free them. 1236 00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:20,559 Speaker 5: And then it's like free. 1237 00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,719 Speaker 4: Them so that they become like South Korea, so that 1238 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,159 they become a place where no one's having children, where 1239 00:56:26,159 --> 00:56:28,880 everything is falling apart, where you know, people are are 1240 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,360 living in despair and in and in complete you know, 1241 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:33,679 portification of culture. 1242 00:56:33,679 --> 00:56:36,119 Speaker 5: It's like, is that is that what we want to 1243 00:56:36,159 --> 00:56:36,679 replace them? 1244 00:56:37,039 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 4: Is that Western culture Like is Western culture Disney important? 1245 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,920 Speaker 5: And if that's it? Yes, no, thank you, no, no, 1246 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:45,159 thank you indeed. 1247 00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:48,639 Speaker 4: Uh And so it's yeah, it's definitely something that that Yeah, 1248 00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:51,199 that grades at me even in my own engagement sometimes 1249 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,760 where I'm thinking what you're saying, like, do i want everybody, 1250 00:56:55,079 --> 00:56:59,079 do I want to bring what is modern Western culture to, 1251 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,239 you know, to the rest of the world. 1252 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,599 Speaker 1: And I you know, my feeling for a long time 1253 00:57:04,639 --> 00:57:06,320 has been that this thing that we called the West 1254 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:08,159 is an idol at this point. 1255 00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:09,639 Speaker 2: And it's also not. 1256 00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:11,400 Speaker 1: Only does it you know, as you say, it's brought 1257 00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,199 plenty of material benefits, but it's also hugely culturally damaging 1258 00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:15,599 to lots of other parts of the world which had 1259 00:57:15,639 --> 00:57:17,559 been crushed by it, but also to the culture, to 1260 00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:19,840 the people that we were before this modern thing appeared 1261 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,400 called the West and scotted on our cultures and sucked 1262 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,679 all of the sacredness out of our cultures and the 1263 00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:29,000 locality and the and the distinctiveness. And we've confused this 1264 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:33,159 this kind of modern, hyper consumerist industrial beast that we 1265 00:57:33,239 --> 00:57:35,280 call the West with an actual culture, and it's not 1266 00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,519 a culture, it's like a giant. 1267 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:38,760 Speaker 2: It's the machine, as I call it. 1268 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,679 Speaker 1: But the machine is parasitical upon actual culture, whether it's 1269 00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:44,239 here or elsewhere. So so we ought to be on 1270 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,639 the side of culture that is serving God and serving 1271 00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:51,119 Christ rather than this kind of anti culture which serves 1272 00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:54,519 the machine, which we sometimes confuse for the real thing. 1273 00:57:55,039 --> 00:57:58,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that no, I think that that's the that's 1274 00:57:58,199 --> 00:58:01,480 the right way to think about it. And so listen, Paul, 1275 00:58:01,519 --> 00:58:03,599 I would say, I think this is a good place 1276 00:58:03,639 --> 00:58:06,360 to to to stop. Thank you, thanks for taking your 1277 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,639 time to do this. You know, I think it was used. 1278 00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:10,360 Like I said, I was really touched by the talk, 1279 00:58:10,639 --> 00:58:12,199 and it was it was good to work it out 1280 00:58:12,199 --> 00:58:13,440 with you and to kind of get a sense of 1281 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,280 your of your position. 1282 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,360 Speaker 5: I I really appreciate what. 1283 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,559 Speaker 4: You're doing, and I think a lot of people do 1284 00:58:18,639 --> 00:58:20,639 a lot of people really appreciate what you're doing. And 1285 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,719 and uh, you know, I need to keep you humble, 1286 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,639 but I'll still flatter you anyways because I want. I 1287 00:58:26,639 --> 00:58:29,760 think I think it's important that you you understand that 1288 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,679 you have an important place in this big discussion that's happening, 1289 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,519 and people that you might not know, that you might 1290 00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:37,840 not think are paying attention to I think they are, 1291 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,840 so so you keep doing what you're doing. 1292 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,800 Speaker 1: That's an intimidating thought. Thank you. I'll now go and 1293 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:45,800 do a lot of prostrations to restore my humanity. 1294 00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:47,239 Speaker 5: There you go. That's all I wanted. 1295 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,039 Speaker 4: I just wanted actually to just I need to do 1296 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,280 later to go to confession like I was. 1297 00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:57,280 Speaker 2: I'm going to need lost confession in the next week. Pride, Pride. 1298 00:58:57,639 --> 00:59:00,360 Speaker 1: Thank you know, it's really good. I really appreciate rotation 1299 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:01,639 as I've always great to talk. 1300 00:59:02,039 --> 00:59:04,920 Speaker 4: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 1301 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,639 the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you 1302 00:59:07,679 --> 00:59:10,800 can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers 1303 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,800 with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase. So 1304 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:15,960 go to the Symbolic world dot com and thank you 1305 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:17,039 for your support.