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Speaker 1: What is up, fellows, echos, I am Dan Favalley coming

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at you with the one, the only, my certified fantabulous

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co host, mister Grant Hughes. We're here to talk about

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the latest NBA gambling scandal or a NBA gambling scandal,

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however you want to frame it. We're gonna go through

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with the major individuals involved so far, we'll break it down,

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we'll give you the cliff notes of what's happening in

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our thoughts on them. But first and foremost, Grant, how

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the heck are you doing? Parlays?

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Speaker 2: Before?

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Speaker 1: You're lucky?

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Speaker 2: Dan, you're just ready to ready to throw some throw some. Yeah,

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we do need to talk about this, uh so, I

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guess uh before we get into the some of the particulars,

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and we'll break it down as a preliminary matter. When

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this story dropped, what was your first like interaction with it?

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And what was your first like how did you come

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across it? And then what was your very first thought

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as you see Chauncey Billups, Terry Rosier indicted or arrested.

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I think was the first thing I saw which was

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that piqued my interest?

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Speaker 1: I first saw it because the Sham's notification popped up

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on my phone as I find out about most things,

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and my reaction to it was, I, I don't want

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to say it was indifference, but it's not something that

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I found shocking. And I was almost, I guess, not

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surprised at how big of a deal. Not to downplay

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the significance of it, but that even the Terry Rozier

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stuff specifically, we didn't learn much about, aside from the

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anecdote that he may and we're gonna get into it,

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but he may have paid for someone to drive somewhere

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to collect the money so they go count it at

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his house. I just it didn't. I guess it didn't

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move me the same way other people did. And there's

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also and this is probably the spot to put put this,

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and so what could we anyone who's not gonna come

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into this with an open mind. I want to be

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inherently skeptical of anything coming out of the mouth from

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anyone associated with this current administration, because it's why was

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Patel up in his FBI raid jacket, were up there

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giving notes on this. I just didn't it seemed to

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scale above the level that this was, especially when one

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of the individuals involved or one of the primary matters,

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like the Terry Rozier thing. I don't want to say

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it was old news, but it was like we knew

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most of it. Yeah, so and just the Toronto Rangers

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like maybe not don't have chat GPT write your element

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from there, and just I don't know you had said

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this in our discord too when it first came up.

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Is this just I'm just in I will just reiterate

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I'm inherently skeptical and I want to wait and see

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more the people who were involved. Terrot's here has already

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been linked to it, So no, this doesn't the project

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that his name was there. We know about Chauncey Billups

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and the rape allegations from previously it was made. It

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became a headline story again when he was hired as

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the coach of the Portland Trailblazers, and now it's kind

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of faded into the background because that's how the news

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cycle works. That's not Oh, he was playing poker and

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might have like might have passed on information. We're gonna

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get into all the individual things so that it wasn't shocking,

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and so I want to wait to hear just more

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information I'm sure they don't. I don't think they were

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up there making things up. They clearly have to have something,

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and some look, the terro Zier stuff was already just

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in the ether, but I don't. I haven't seen anything

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or read anything that makes me think, Okay, yes, if

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it's true, these players, these individuals that are so they

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need to be banned. Terror Zier, Chounci Bilps, they need

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to be banned. And quite frankly, I think that's how

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this is all gonna end, just to kind of spoil

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before we even get into it. But that's what I

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had a tough time reconciling, is we're sitting there, Oh,

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we're just taking everything that's being said at face value

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given the source here that was That was one of

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my first reactions.

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Speaker 2: I would echo basically all of that, and and I

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felt similarly. One of the only other difference was I

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didn't get a sham's notification. I opened up the New

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York Times on my phone and this was the top story,

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and I was just like, so, there's no news today.

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I guess was like my first thought was like, how

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is this the banner? Your a one? And then that

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ties to the skepticism about where this is coming from,

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and just like, oh, that's interesting that this is being

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pushed as a major story now when I don't know,

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there's a few other things that seem like bigger deals.

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Maybe that's like just a few you know.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: I just felt like maybe maybe some part of that

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is me minimized, trying to minimize how big a deal

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this is because I don't know how you feel, but like,

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on some level, if it is true that on a

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much wider scale, the competitive integrity of NBA basketball is compromised,

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like it's not good for me, it's not good for us,

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it's not good for our industry. But that that was

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like a second or third thought after like, really, this

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is this and it's the way it was packaged as

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this is all one thing, as opposed to once you

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read a little more carefully, how separate a lot of

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this was. So Yeah, some skepticism, for sure, but mostly

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just kind of bewilderment that this is our top story

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with where we are in the world today.

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Speaker 1: And I think it probably also it's more about how

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where do you land on sports betting in general, which

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is probably what this discussion turns into as we move

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through it. But I think let's begin with you mentioned

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integrity of the game. The terror Rozier allegations are the

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one in theory that would impact the integrity of a game.

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So I'll take us through those. If you're on YouTube,

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you can see it on screen. We have most of

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our notes in a doc because it's already kind of

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cramped on screen as it is. But the indictment accuses

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Terry Razier participating in an illegal sports betting scheme using

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insider NBA information. As part of the scheme, gamblers use

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non public info to bet on at least seven NBA

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teams between March two thousand and two twenty three and

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March twenty twenty four. Those games involved the Hornets, the Magic,

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the Blazers, the Lakers, and the Toronto Raptors. This is Lankers,

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Toronto Rangers. Excuse me, and this is this is under

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the same umbrella as the Jontay Porter allegations that he

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was I guess it was proven enough and he was

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pled guilty. He is now banned from the NBA for life.

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Six defendants are named as part of this gambling scheme,

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and because it was tied, I think, as you said before,

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was tough to kind of it felt like they were

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inextricably tied together the poker, like the illegal gambling with

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the poker and then going on with sports betting. Thirty

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one people were named in the poker scheme, but six

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defendants were named as part of this sports betting scheme

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that involved Terry Rozier. The allegations are that when he

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was with the Hornets in March twenty twenty three, he

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allegedly told a co defendant and a childhood friend, de

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Niro Laster, that Rosier would remove himself from a game

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against the Pelicans in the first quarter due to a

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supposed injury. Laster then allegedly sold that information to two

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betters for about one hundred grand. From there, Rosier allegedly

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removed himself from the game after nine minutes. He finished

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with like five points to assist whatever it was using

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a network of associates. Then the people who presumably bought

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the information wagered hundreds of thousands of dollars on Rosier's unders,

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which cashed because he pulled himself after oh, I haven't

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written five points to assists in four rebounds. After this,

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Rosier allegedly paid for lastyear to travel to Philly to

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collect quote proceeds from the scheme. He then apparently drove

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Laster then apparently drove to Rosier's home so they could

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count the money with him. And I think there is

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two big takeaways from this, just before I throw at you,

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this is the one, more so than Chauncey Billups or

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Damon Jones passing along non public information which eventually becomes

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public anyway, this is the one that impacts the integrity

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of the game more than anything because it involved the

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player who a significant player at the time. This was

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the season that Rozier was averaging thirty four to thirty

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five minutes per game for the Hornets, removing himself from

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a game, So that this isn't Jon de Porter a

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player's on a two way connor. This is someone who

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is a core part of his team at that time.

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And that's where I think the real concern starts to

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creep in throughout all of this is that I'm not

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trying to minimize the other allegations, but this is the

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if you had to focus on one like, this is

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the one that and we already knew most of this,

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this is the one I was hyper focused on.

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Speaker 2: I agree with that. I think I think this feels different. One,

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not new Rosier had been Rosier's name had come up,

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I don't know when, a long time ago, with basically

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this exact set of allegations. But two right, I agree

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that if you are, if you're the NBA, I think

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there's an argument to be made that this feels like

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a bigger problem because it goes directly competitive integrity. It

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goes directly to a player who is totally in control

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of his production, managing that for reasons that have nothing

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to do with whether his team will win or lose

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the game, And that touches on just like the whole

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the absolute core of sports, and like why we're interested

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in it, Like we need to believe that it is

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being played by players who are trying to win the game,

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so as opposed to whatever this was trying to help

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hit unders. I think the counter to that might be

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Rosier doesn't have the same level of like overall influence

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as say a coach might, And so even though what's

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so you could see how the Chauncey Billups inclusion in

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this kind of blumped together set of indictments might seem

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like a bigger deal just because in theory, a coach

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can play or not play, players can dictate strategy, could

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pull different levers than just an individual player. I still

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think this feels different. This feels worse if what is

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alleged here is true than anything else that we've come

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across in all this reporting. I think another aspect of

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this that's interesting to me, or maybe I'll throw it

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to you, Like you mentioned John say Porter, it's sort

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of easier to understand the motivation of someone that does

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not have an established NBA career and or a big

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NBA salary, like chasing the money here, because a few

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hundred thousand dollars to him is real to Terry Rozier,

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who I don't know what his deal was, but he's

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making mid twenties in mid twenty millions, right.

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Speaker 1: I think that was the first year I think of

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his current four year contract, right, So he was a yeah,

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four year, ninety six million, and he was on twenty

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that was the first year of it, twenty one point five.

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And it's by the way, wasn't like he was earning

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his rookie scale. Before that, he had made about an

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average of eighteen million in each of the previous three seasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so what that what that fact does is

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put the lie to a defense that these players make

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so much money they'll they would they'll never they'll never

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try anything untoward because like a few hundred grand is

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nothing to them. Because now you can point to Terry

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Rozier and say, well, he was on a ninety million

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dollar contract and still was you know, was manipulating his

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performance for a few hundred grand like that. That's another

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level here, that's problematic, right, because you can't just show.

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Speaker 1: It makes you think down anyone then, is what the thought?

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I know that there are ye players who are paid

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more than Terry Rozier, and there are more. There are

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players who make way more off the court. So this

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doesn't rise to a level of why would Lebron James

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ever do this as a billion dollar athlete? I think

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you could have said the same thing for the time period.

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Why did Michael Jordan Field the need to gamble or

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play a bunch of poker when he was in the

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I mean, this is something that interests people, it's something

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that can become a problem. We don't know just the

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other thing would be, and people have speculated its kind

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of been. Did they just get like, did they have

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gambling debts and this is something that they needed to

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do to clear them. It doesn't get into that we

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don't know. That's why I want to know more information.

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And to your point, by the way, about people latching

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onto the Billups one of it all, I think that

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also speaks to that was the new wrinkle in this.

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And Chauncey Billups not only is an active head coach,

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but he's just a bigger name than Damon Jones or

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he's a bigger name than Terry Rose. Here's an NBA

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champion and he's All Famer. So yeah, yeah, this is

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I I that that's what's tough for my brain to

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square around. And it's Terry Rozier's lawyer. Camp comes out

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and forcellly just rebukes and says that they were doing

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this for show. The administration wanted to put, you know,

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his head on a spike, basically like they want to

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make these high profile rests. I do think that's true

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of any administration, is like they want to show they're

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making high profile arrests. At the same times, when you

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bring up the aspect of what he was making, what

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is your incentive or reasoning for doing this and that

248
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part of paying for someone to go collect what was it?

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How much was it? They don't really get it, or

250
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at least I haven't seen them getting into this specific

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amounts that you go count it your like what why

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are you as Terry Rozier, who at that point so

253
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forget about what he's earning that season and in the future,

254
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has already made over sixty million, Like why is that?

255
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And you know you're guaranteed his contract was partially guaranteed

256
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in the final season, he was still guaranteed basically ninety

257
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million bucks or whatever it was. What is I don't understand?

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Speaker 2: Insentive there, no, and it's just you you just have

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to get into the speculation. And we've done some of it.

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And like you just well, if you're associating with these

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kinds of people, maybe they're able to exercise leverage on

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you that makes you act in ways that you logically

263
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otherwise wouldn't, right, Like that's a possibility depending on who

264
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you know he was, who he'd come as come across

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in the gambling world, Like that's that's on the table.

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I just I agree. I don't think either of us

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is saying we don't believe this because he's making so

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much money. I think what the point to take away

269
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is that you don't get to say, well, because he's

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making so much money, player X would never have done

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this right right, Like that, that argument loses steam. You

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want to move on to Billips. I can kind of

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go through what was alleged here very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about is that good or bad brand

275
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marketing to have a Clutch Sports Group sweatshirt on as

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he's like walking.

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Speaker 2: Out of that big I clocked that too. I thought

278
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that was, like, oh okay, maybe a different sweatshirt. So

279
00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:36,799
Chauncey Phillips is not named in the indictment of Terry

280
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Rozier that's centered on sports betting. He does match like

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down to like it's one of those like ge who

282
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could this be? Descriptions of co Conspirator eight. He is

283
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described as a resident of Oregon who played in the

284
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NBA from nineteen ninety seven through twenty fourteen and has

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been a coach since twenty twenty one. Like all Right,

286
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co Conspirator eight allegedly told Eric Ernest that the Blazers

287
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would be resting top players on March twenty fourth, twenty

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twenty three. Of note Eric Ernest also was also indicted

289
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in the gambling scheme to defraud card players in poker

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games that were said to have involved numerous members of

291
00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:15,480
the Bonano, Gambino, Lukesey, and Genovi's crime families.

292
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Speaker 1: I just sudden urge to watch Goodfellas.

293
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Speaker 2: Yeah right, you see those names again. Throwing the names

294
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in the indictment is also kind of like, ok, okay, FBI,

295
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we get at the show, so to me, I'll just

296
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before I throw it to you. This is separate from

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what's alleged with Terry Rozier, aside from I guess some

298
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tangential links, right or maybe entirely. And the poker game

299
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of it all is also something that as more people

300
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have read the indictments and like just looked back at

301
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the news, like the poker game was a known thing,

302
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or at least it was. People in Billip's circle and

303
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NBA circles were aware that there was a poker game

304
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that Chauncy Billups was involved in that was I forget

305
00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:04,840
the exact verbiage, but was like you're gonna want to

306
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,759
stay away from that is kind of the vibe that

307
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that people had around it. But just just to be

308
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,360
clear This is one of the things that threw me

309
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,279
upon reading a little more is that, Okay, this is

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basically a separate thing from the Rosier stuff, and it

311
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,320
certainly paints Billups in a in a light that is like, oh,

312
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he's he's in trouble or co Conspirator eight is in

313
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trouble for the same stuff, right, like didn't didn't? Isn't

314
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that the feel that you sort of got initially is

315
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it is just like co Conspirator eight slash Billups was

316
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just named in all the reporting. So I'll stop with that.

317
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Billups and Rosier indicted in federal gambling fraud probe whatever.

318
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It was like, oh shit, like that's it's all connected.

319
00:16:50,519 --> 00:16:53,840
It doesn't if unless I'm missing a lot, it's not

320
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quite that clear.

321
00:16:55,799 --> 00:16:57,480
Speaker 1: No it's not. But what I will say that I

322
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,559
don't think was receiving enough attention. And maybe it did,

323
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,639
and I'm just not consuming enough of that content. So

324
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,480
people have made the point that if you're just talking

325
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to someone and this is a Chauncey Billups just says

326
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the example, you are a coach of a team, and

327
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,200
if you're just letting a friend in your life know

328
00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:18,440
name's not going to play tonight. That's just might come

329
00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:20,519
up in conversation if you don't know they're going to

330
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go use that, sell that information, or use it to

331
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make money themselves in some way. And place Bets is like,

332
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,480
what is your culpability there? I'm not everything is presumed

333
00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:35,519
innocent until proven guilty. But he's linked to Eric Ernest

334
00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:38,200
with the poker game too, and so if he actually

335
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:42,400
told Ernest this, if that's the one he's passing the

336
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,039
information to, you have no cover, right because you already

337
00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:49,920
know that this character is linked to Unless your argument is, well,

338
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:51,720
I know I was never at a poker game. I

339
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,079
had no idea that those existed. So the fact that

340
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,000
he is tied to that person specifically in both of

341
00:17:58,039 --> 00:18:01,519
these instances, that's what I locked the most out of this.

342
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And when I came away from it, it was short

343
00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:06,799
of I don't want to get oh, he definitely did it,

344
00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:09,319
but I was just, oh, this is if this is

345
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,440
all true, this is too much smoke. I don't know

346
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what his cover would be.

347
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,519
Speaker 2: I think another element of this that we're kind of

348
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brushing up against is is from the NBA side, and

349
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,680
Seth partnow mentioned this. He's worked for teams that you

350
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,160
get instructed more than once in the course of every

351
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season as players, staff coaches that among the sort of

352
00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:40,119
acts that are no nos that aren't technically gambling, is

353
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exactly this, like tipping, like it's called you know, tipping,

354
00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:47,359
telling people outside the sphere of the team or that

355
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,640
that are outside the like need to know uh little

356
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,480
circle who is or is not playing, like so that

357
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feel in a way that's relevant, But in another way

358
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it's also irrelevant because it's not like that's not an

359
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,279
element of a federal crime. It's against the rules of

360
00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:07,480
the NBA, and so if you violate those, the NBA

361
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,920
will you know, maybe ban you for life, suspend you whatever,

362
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,279
like unless we get total exoneration here. I think Billups

363
00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:17,119
is kind of cooked as a member of the NBA

364
00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:20,440
going forwards like that doesn't really matter that he if

365
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,240
he was tipping because for like his legal status, but

366
00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:28,440
for his NBA status it definitely does because that's exactly

367
00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:31,640
the kind of thing you're told never to do a

368
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short separate from like betting on the results of your team,

369
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which is not alleged here at any point with respect

370
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,880
to Billups, you know what I mean, Like from the

371
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,359
NBA's perspective, it's just like, well, open and shut.

372
00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:46,359
Speaker 1: I guess you could say it's open and shut. But

373
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,400
what do you think is different? I mean, what how

374
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,119
firm is what Seth Partner was saying. How firm is

375
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,960
the you shouldn't be sharing this? Is it a mandate?

376
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,000
Because what is it? Like it's mandated that players in

377
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:01,319
the NBA can't bet on their their own sport. Essentially,

378
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,640
they're not just their own games, but their own sport.

379
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,160
But like, so are you? Does it cross the boundaries

380
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,319
of saying like you can't talk to people about anything

381
00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:10,920
with this job. If you're saying, let's use it to

382
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,519
coach his staff members, doesn't that cross into the realm

383
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:15,640
of when people would argue, well, this is what you

384
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,200
can't tell pro athletes if they can't bet on other sports.

385
00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:21,680
You're just telling people that they can't interact with people

386
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,640
in their everyday lives or have that. It's not I mean,

387
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,960
you're not I know, injury information is close a closely

388
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,119
guarded secret now, but you're not actually working for this

389
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,680
fucking CIA, and this is you need to ultraate top clearance,

390
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:36,960
like security clearance to to get this info. And also

391
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,319
it's info that's being paid. I'm not again, I'm not

392
00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:43,079
defending this. I'm just trying to rational like play Devil's

393
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,480
advocates to oh you can't, they just shouldn't share this information,

394
00:20:46,519 --> 00:20:49,960
and that in itself is damning. I just it's damning

395
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,599
to me. If Ernest is the person he physically.

396
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 2: Scared it, No, I think for sure, your right to

397
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:56,480
focus on that element of it is is kind of

398
00:20:56,559 --> 00:20:59,720
like the again, this is not gonna be well, this

399
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,039
might be an argument he would make if you're trying

400
00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:05,200
to prosecute a case against him, is like, what did

401
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,359
he reasonably think this person was going to do with

402
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,319
this information based on what he knew of him, what

403
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,359
you could establish about his character and like sort of

404
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,319
what he was into. Like, I think it's a pretty easy.

405
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: Like it's it's difficult.

406
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,599
Speaker 2: It would be difficult for Billups to say, like how

407
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,519
was I supposed to know what? Like, you know, I

408
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,279
never thought for a second that that information might be

409
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,799
used for something in particular, you know what I mean?

410
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,160
Like that, it's a tough, a tough pill to swallow,

411
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,160
a tough argument to make.

412
00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 1: The other thing I struggle to separate with and maybe

413
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,359
we could say this for the Damon Jones talk or

414
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,720
stegment of it too. But how is this different? You

415
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,480
could say it gives certain betters because in this in

416
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:50,880
this situation, who is the victim. It's the sports book specifically, right,

417
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,039
And you're not hurting your team because you're not Billup.

418
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,680
And now if Billups is a benching dame specifically, like

419
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,559
so that I can give this, Yeah, that we're getting it.

420
00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:03,079
We're veering into the integrity of the sport thing. But

421
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,480
how is this different from if people are using algorithms

422
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,920
to place there and the like? How is it different

423
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,480
from it where they're capital or they're paying for someone

424
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,279
else's advice on how to do this, or how is

425
00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:18,240
it different from just well, sports books are trying to

426
00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:22,279
gain advantages over the consumers because if you're too successful,

427
00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:24,079
like they can kind of cut you off. So I

428
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:28,000
just I'm I understand that it's a it's a terrible

429
00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:30,960
look given the source he gave it to. But just

430
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,160
the relaying of information to me that information is gonna

431
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,000
come out anyway that feels more like the flow of information,

432
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:39,599
That feels more like an NBA problem. It's well, then

433
00:22:39,599 --> 00:22:42,359
you should force is it too much to ask to

434
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,559
either have like the injury reports need to just be

435
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,319
due earlier so we know that this is and you

436
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,200
can't change them. No more game time decisions or something,

437
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,039
And I know that sounds stupid. There might be late scratches,

438
00:22:52,079 --> 00:22:53,960
then I think those would still be allowed. But if

439
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,319
you are getting in bed with sports books as partnerships,

440
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,599
and this is something if you, as the NBA, view

441
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,680
this as a cardinal sin, forget about the gambling like

442
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,720
the poker part of this. If you viewed the flow

443
00:23:04,759 --> 00:23:07,400
of information here as a cardinal sin or just taboo,

444
00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:10,480
then maybe you need to look at your protocol for

445
00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:13,759
how injury information is handled and guarded while you're also

446
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,480
going to be in bed with sports books.

447
00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's sort of it feels unsolvable

448
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,400
independent of there just not being sports gambling, because you're right,

449
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,640
the only the only reason it matters if there's a

450
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,559
late scratch, assuming like assuming there's a good reason for

451
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:32,839
it is to gamblers and to the house, right like,

452
00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,640
so if they're if that element weren't involved, like I yeah,

453
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,200
you could say whatever you wanted, right cause who I

454
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,359
don't know, like people buying tickets for the game that night,

455
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,599
might be pissed if Dame got benched for no reason

456
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,720
or whatever not that, which isn't what happened here. That's

457
00:23:46,759 --> 00:23:48,400
the other thing that's kind of funny about this is

458
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,039
like everybody knew the Blazers were tanking, and nobody like

459
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,000
they were routinely sitting guys all the time.

460
00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:58,519
Speaker 1: So, like, isn't it a bigger deal that the secondary

461
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:01,960
market or you're gonna the secondary ticket market after Lebron's

462
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:04,920
like fake out of the decision part two that those

463
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,400
tickets went through the roof, and look, people have their

464
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,240
own agency. They decided to pay above market value, but

465
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:12,680
they went and spent all this money on the final

466
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,799
game home game of the regular season for the Lakers.

467
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,720
To me, that feels like a bigger deal than a

468
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:22,319
team that's tanking. You found out a little earlier than

469
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,960
other people that their star player or one of their

470
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,920
players wasn't going to play that night.

471
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:33,079
Speaker 2: It's not a perfect use of this term, but I

472
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,519
think the reason that it's still concerning, beside from the

473
00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:43,000
person to whom the information was allegedly leaked by Billips,

474
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:48,559
the problem is like, well, if those channels are open,

475
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,960
then there's at least the opportunity for what didn't seem

476
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,400
to happen here, but could if you're worst case scenarioing

477
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,680
this where you do have someone in a position to

478
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,079
make lineup decisions that is then manipulating the lineup for

479
00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:07,240
purposes of betting, right like that, which isn't what happened.

480
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,440
Like the fact that that channel of communication exists, it

481
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,960
opens up that possibility if you have bad actors or

482
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,119
you have people that are incentivized to to behave that way.

483
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,960
And maybe that's why the whole like somewhat unrealistic expectation

484
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,759
of like no tipping, can't, can't got to be totally

485
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:30,319
tight lipped about all this type of stuff if you're

486
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,400
a trainer, if you're a coach, if you're a player,

487
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,839
Like maybe that's why it's it just exists, is like

488
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,599
you have to make that the rule, or at least

489
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,400
I don't Again, I don't know if it's like this,

490
00:25:40,599 --> 00:25:43,440
if it's a hard and fast rule that's punishable by

491
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:45,920
like death right away, or if it's just like, hey,

492
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,359
this is among the stuff that we'll look at if

493
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,640
you get caught as the NBA and potentially punish you

494
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,640
for like that needs to be there, just because the

495
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:59,079
potential for like a much worse version of what we

496
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,480
see here in the Billups situation is possible. Right like

497
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:06,039
that that you see what I'm saying like, it's it's

498
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,240
you have the rule in place to prevent like something

499
00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:09,960
much worse than what happened here.

500
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,759
Speaker 1: There's isn't it doesn't it come back to what we

501
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:16,960
talked about with Rosier when it's it's not just intent

502
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:19,839
but the incentive for that intent, because Billips would be

503
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,119
another one where it's what is like, what was his

504
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,880
incentive to do this? Specifically? Was he indebted to this person? Again,

505
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,200
we're veering into speculation, which I don't necessarily want us

506
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,119
to have, although that's pretty much our entire job at

507
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,839
this point, and so I'm not trying to condone this

508
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:37,240
by play Devil's advocate either. I just don't the intent

509
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,160
matters more to me than the flow of information. I

510
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,079
guess is really where I land.

511
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,319
Speaker 2: Sure, of course? Yeah?

512
00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: Right, Finally, before we gets lean into an overarching discussion

513
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,079
about sports betting, we have the Damon Jones allegations, which

514
00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:53,920
are sort of just similar to what's going on with Rosier,

515
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,920
except that it seems like he sold like specific tidbits

516
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,519
of information and there were dollar amounts assigned to it,

517
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:01,880
so he was identified in the indictment as a teammate

518
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,000
or coach of a prominent NBA player aka Grant Players three.

519
00:27:06,319 --> 00:27:11,079
Remember that indictment says that Damon Jones used his relationship

520
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,559
with player three to get information that he sold to gamblers.

521
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,119
Among the examples given where in February of twenty twenty three,

522
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,319
he allegedly found out player three would not play in

523
00:27:21,319 --> 00:27:24,440
the Lakers' game against the Bucks and told an unnamed

524
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:27,680
co conspirator to place a quote big bet on the

525
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,319
Bucks because player three was out. Player three wasn't on

526
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,000
the injury report at the time, and then Lebron James

527
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,799
did not play in that game. This is how everyone

528
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,960
connected the dots and decided it was Lebron James. League

529
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,880
sources told the athletics Joe Varden and Mike Vorkanov that

530
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,960
Lebron had no knowledge of this, that what Damon Jones

531
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:49,640
was doing. Then, in January of twenty twenty four, Jones

532
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,039
allegedly sold the info to on another top Lakers player.

533
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,519
That one isn't quoted from the indictment. After learning quote

534
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,759
from a trainer that the player was hurt and his

535
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:04,359
minutes or performance would be affected. The defendant Marbs Fairly

536
00:28:04,519 --> 00:28:07,680
bet one hundred thousand dollars against the Lakers for that game,

537
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,319
and the injury report simply said that the player in

538
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,640
question was probable. The Lakers won that game and the

539
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,519
player ended up playing to form. Fairly asked Jones for

540
00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:21,119
his money back, which was twenty five hundred dollars for

541
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,839
the flow of the information was the cost, and that

542
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,519
is the player. I believe that everyone assumes, as Anthony

543
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:30,240
Davis or that they've identified, Damon Jones was passing injury

544
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,640
information on Anthony Davis and Lebron James. Do you have

545
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:37,559
any further extrapolated thoughts on this compared to what was

546
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:41,000
going on with Bill because in this, I mean in

547
00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:43,319
the indictment on Billups, it doesn't seem like you can

548
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,039
question the intent just because of the earnest being linked

549
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:47,640
to the two separate things. You would have to believe

550
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,279
that Phillips is being wrongfully accused in both instances. In

551
00:28:51,319 --> 00:28:54,119
this one, it's more clear cut. It wasn't just the flow.

552
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,720
He was being compensated for the flow of information with

553
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,559
Billups it was was he selling the information? Was he

554
00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:00,240
trying to happen?

555
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: Like?

556
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: Was he getting a cut of the people who are

557
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,160
capitalizing on this information? This seems a little bit more

558
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:06,400
cut and dry than that.

559
00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, it's it's more cut and dry, and

560
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,319
it feels worse if you're just like ranking them, like

561
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,519
the rosier thing is the biggest problem. This is the

562
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:19,160
second biggest because it is just you are selling inside

563
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,279
information for gambling purposes, and then the Billups one is third.

564
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,799
The cutting dry is the right way to put this.

565
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,319
If all these allegations are proven true, it's I mean

566
00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:32,960
there's text message stuff alluded to and the so it's

567
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,559
just kind of it is. It does seem to be

568
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,720
what it looks like. Again, though this gets this this

569
00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:41,519
is what I'm talking about, is like, this is what

570
00:29:41,559 --> 00:29:45,799
you're concerned about with the escape or the release of

571
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,559
information that should be in house and which it's only

572
00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:54,240
a problem if you're allowed to gamble on these games,

573
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,759
because who gives a shit if Lebron James is or

574
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:00,599
isn't playing in a game or it's not, I shouldn't

575
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,400
say that it's it's not nearly as potential as big

576
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,039
of a potential problem if Damon Jones is leaking who

577
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:09,279
is or isn't playing in a given Lakers game, if

578
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:13,079
there's not this other, this way to profit off of

579
00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:16,839
that information. So maybe that's the segue into the more

580
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:17,920
overarching discussion.

581
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,079
Speaker 1: I think the question is just what is the issue

582
00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:22,200
at hand? Here?

583
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:22,839
Speaker 2: Is it?

584
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: That? Is it just should sports betting be legal? Is it? Like?

585
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,839
What is the actual It's the integrity of the game,

586
00:30:31,079 --> 00:30:33,759
and that's of sport in general. Because if people start

587
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,599
there are people already think that the end well, let's

588
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:38,319
just focus on the MBA. They think that the NBA

589
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,960
is scripted. If it if that actually becomes a prevailing

590
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,319
consensus to where you believe that what you're watching has

591
00:30:46,359 --> 00:30:50,759
already been predetermined, that's a real problem. I don't know

592
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:53,759
that anything we've discussed here rises to that level. I

593
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:57,000
think the question becomes, does anything we've here make you

594
00:30:57,079 --> 00:31:00,839
think that at some point it could right to that level?

595
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,319
And it also then goes into like, what are your

596
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:06,720
personal beliefs when it comes to the legalization of sports

597
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,720
betting and the way it's offered, the way it could

598
00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:09,160
be used.

599
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,079
Speaker 2: I guess I falled. I kind of think this stuff

600
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:20,160
will if you already are of the mind that this

601
00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:25,240
is all fixed, or you're conspiratorially minded or whatever. This

602
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,039
is just more info or more ammo I guess, or

603
00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:32,079
more support for that opinion. I'm not sure what we've

604
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,839
got so far is going to take a person that

605
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,839
believes the league is competitively pure or you know, are

606
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,640
very close to that tanking is what it is, but

607
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,880
and and will get you into the camp of oh

608
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,720
this this is these games are fixed like on mass,

609
00:31:50,759 --> 00:31:54,160
like there's we can't trust the results, the integrity is compromised.

610
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,000
I don't I don't know that this is enough to

611
00:31:58,119 --> 00:32:00,319
get you from A to B. I think it's just

612
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:03,440
it will reinforce your position if you already are like, ah,

613
00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:05,839
this is it's all fixed and all rigged, which is

614
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,640
personally that always just again, there's probably some self defense

615
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,880
in this, like I I deeply want to believe that

616
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,759
everything's on the up and up. But that sort of

617
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,119
thinking like other refs have it in for this team,

618
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,240
or this game was rigged, or you know, this draft

619
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,799
pick was manipulated. That always just with no real evidence.

620
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,920
It's a lot of coincidental stuff. It's lazy analysis. If

621
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,960
you're saying it as a joke or whatever. I find

622
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,960
it funny sometimes too, But it's just you if you're

623
00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:38,079
especially if you're not. I mean, I don't know if

624
00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:39,920
I'm gonna read that case that you're gonna make, but

625
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,799
like you need to make like a real argument behind it,

626
00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:45,160
and invariably there's almost just no real evidence behind you

627
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,240
start asking why or how and the argument's just completely

628
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,000
fall apart. Or what are the incentives? Now with gambling

629
00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:53,759
you can say, well, the incentive was financial, like you know,

630
00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:57,519
there's this money to be made over here, or I

631
00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:00,519
don't know. Some people just need to get get addicted

632
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,200
to it. And it's not about the money. It's about

633
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,640
the rush, it's about the edge, it's about the dopamine whatever.

634
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,200
So I so that's kind of my thought on like

635
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,640
does it affect your view on the competitive integrity? It's

636
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,279
kind of you think what you think? I don't feel

637
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:15,440
like this is going to move you one way or

638
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,480
the other necessarily, I guess the answer. The next thing

639
00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:22,039
to get to is like what do you do about this?

640
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:27,119
Like is this a widespread problem or do you? And

641
00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:30,000
and if so, what's what's the solve like it or

642
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:32,640
is this a problem? Like that's the other thing here,

643
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,400
like is this a big enough deal? We already led

644
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,880
this off with like we're skeptical of the administration that

645
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:44,440
is spearheading this investigation just as the starting point. But

646
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:47,000
if this is a real issue, what do you do?

647
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,920
Like what's what is what is the role of gambling

648
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,920
going forward? And can it can it change? If that's

649
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,880
how you think this gets solved, I don't.

650
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,039
Speaker 1: Know how you change it. If you're going to allow

651
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:02,960
betting on player props, and that's been the thing, there's

652
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,839
the NCAAA ban put on them. I do think when

653
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:09,519
you say that, it sounds better in theory than in practice.

654
00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:12,079
Looking at this from a business perspective, not getting into

655
00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,039
my personal beliefs on it. I don't think people understand

656
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:18,880
how much the prop betting market contributes to overall sports betting.

657
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:21,079
I think in twenty twenty four the estimate was that

658
00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:23,920
it was a fifty percent of all legal bets placed.

659
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,920
That is a huge part of your business share as

660
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,360
sports books, as the league who's partnered with these sports

661
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,239
books to just wipe away. I think you can more

662
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,800
closely guard the flow of information, but that isn't that

663
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,159
just gonna make this more of a saga when it

664
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,039
does get out. I think if you're looking at this

665
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,159
and wondering how to pro or improve it, short of

666
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,079
actually banning player props, try I think fix some of it,

667
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,679
but not all of it. I don't know what the

668
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,360
answer is. I don't think that there's an answer. You're

669
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,280
never gonna weed it out in time. Look, the illegal

670
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,159
sports betting market is still a billion dollar industry every year,

671
00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:02,079
even though it's a legal and basically forty states at

672
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:05,480
this point. And the thing I would push back is

673
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,800
why this not used specifically, but the book beliefs in general.

674
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:13,239
This is what we're talking about. It is a problem,

675
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,280
but to me, it's also a theoretical problem when you're

676
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,360
looking at it through the NBA's lens. In particular, the

677
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,719
Terry Rozier situation specifically gives opens up the possibility, as

678
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,360
we just mentioned before, that these contracts have not gotten

679
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,880
so lucrative that for most of these players that could

680
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,000
impact the game if they traded, if they not, if

681
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:36,239
they traded but they pulled themselves out, or they impact

682
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,960
their own alter their own performance, it leaves open the possiblity.

683
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:43,239
No this this could happen like this legitimately could happen,

684
00:35:43,679 --> 00:35:46,440
but it hasn't happened yet. It happened with Terry Rozier,

685
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,079
we think on a team in the Charlotte Hornets that

686
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:53,119
season that wasn't like it wasn't Lebron James pulling himself

687
00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:55,000
off of the Lakers. I'm not saying it needs to

688
00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,239
rise to Nikole Jokic doing something with the Nuggets. So

689
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,480
it is an issue, but I do think a lot

690
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,079
of this is trying to project forward, which leads me

691
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:05,519
to my final point here that should be part of

692
00:36:05,559 --> 00:36:09,639
all this is that so much of my I don't

693
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,039
bet on sports like I just don't. It's not something

694
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:14,480
that like interests me. I understand why people do it.

695
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,400
It helps them lock in on games. I get it.

696
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,880
This podcast wouldn't exist without sports betting advertisements, like we

697
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:22,440
just negotiated a deal with a sports book like this

698
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,440
is the nature of the business. We're all hypocrite, or

699
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,639
we're hypocrites to some extent. I'm willing to like we

700
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:30,840
could talk about that if we need to. But when

701
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,119
we talk about problem gambling, so much comes down to

702
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,280
the reaction, the treatment of it. How many resources are

703
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,920
being devoted to detecting when these bets are happening, or

704
00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:44,679
to treat people who report having problem gambling. There probably

705
00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:46,800
needs to be more preventive measures in place, And when

706
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,480
it comes to sports betting in general, like that you

707
00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:51,320
know the same way, or at least when you and

708
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,760
I came up, it was we were educated on like

709
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,679
the perils of alcohol or tobacco, Like it probably needs

710
00:36:57,679 --> 00:36:59,440
to be the same way. Like that. Education needs to

711
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,119
start young so that when you are exposed to all this,

712
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:03,880
you have a better idea of what you're getting into

713
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,960
and you're not just subjected to all these advertisements or

714
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,679
even more so, I don't know how much ads actually impact.

715
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:11,719
They could be predatory. I'm sure I don't know how

716
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,079
much they I haven't seen an ad and be like,

717
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:15,880
oh yeah, like you got to use that promo code

718
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,360
and they go bet on sports. It might. I think

719
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,880
the bigger danger is when you're looking at the individual

720
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,039
is coming up in a culture to where it's just

721
00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:26,239
so ingrained into the fandom of sports that you're just

722
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,320
that's how you're grandfathered into it. And I think that

723
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,519
probably starts with more education, which leads to more prevention

724
00:37:32,599 --> 00:37:34,920
but when you're looking at it from the NBA specifically,

725
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,159
I don't know how you let so much of this

726
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,320
just operates on good faith. It's on a smaller scale.

727
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:42,719
If we say you and I are going to sit

728
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,760
down and record this podcast at ten am Pacific time,

729
00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:47,960
I trust that you're going to be there. There's really

730
00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:49,400
not much else I could do about it. Am I

731
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:50,960
going to send someone to your house and watch you

732
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,159
twenty four to seven when I have to do it sometimes?

733
00:37:55,199 --> 00:37:57,840
So you're notoriously flaky? And that's what I struggle with

734
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,440
is because if your argument is sports betting shouldn't be legal,

735
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,800
and the people it impacts not just the leagues, not

736
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,760
just the million dollar athletes, but the people who are

737
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,280
providing you content that are we are just you and

738
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,639
I are capitalizing off of this. If you're okay with that,

739
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,800
maybe even impacting yourself to where that's what, then I'm

740
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,480
totally I think that's an acceptable stance to take. But

741
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,599
there's also the discussion that we had about well is

742
00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:26,159
that reasonable? Because you have to be pragmatic about all

743
00:38:26,199 --> 00:38:29,239
this too. It's is it trendy to sit here and

744
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,760
say band player props or sports betting shouldn't be legal,

745
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,320
but is that realistic? And I don't think any of

746
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,480
that's realistic because one illegal gambling is always going to exist,

747
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,960
and I do think to some extent regulated markets are safer.

748
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,039
Maybe there need to be more safeguards when it comes

749
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,280
to advertisements like a ready set or the way that

750
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,440
they target customers, for sure, But would we have detected

751
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,039
this if it was all happening through offshore online bookies

752
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:57,760
or if it was just physical bookies, Probably not. So

753
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,679
it's I don't want to say I understand both sides,

754
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,880
but I understand both sides, and I just don't have

755
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,360
a perfect answer.

756
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 2: I don't have one either. I think I think I

757
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,480
think one thing, if we're looking to be solution oriented,

758
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,440
if we concede that this is a problem based on

759
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,880
these latest reports.

760
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: The player socide, can I ask you a question though,

761
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,920
is it this what we're talking about, is a problem,

762
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,639
But do you think the NBA has more of a

763
00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:31,119
macro problem with I want to focus on the Terry

764
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:33,519
Rosier stuff, or even if you think that coaches are

765
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,679
selling information to capitalize off that, do you think that

766
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,400
that is actually a widespread problem in the NBA right

767
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,119
The idea of it is a problem. What we're talking

768
00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:43,960
about right now is a problem. Do you think that

769
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,840
the NBA actually has this specific problem on a scale

770
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,360
to where it's problematic.

771
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:52,599
Speaker 2: I do not, I think, but what I think it

772
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,880
has among again, people that are predisposed to think this

773
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,920
way is a perception problem. Is an optics problem now,

774
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,760
because this is something you can point to if you

775
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,960
want to make the case that the NBA is rigged,

776
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,960
which I don't believe it is. I think the fact

777
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,000
that Terry Rozier getting allegedly I don't know, getting caught

778
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,239
on a few hundred thousand dollars a couple of years

779
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,639
ago would suggest to me that if there was a

780
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,400
larger problem, that would have been caught too, because that

781
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:28,000
is some small potatoes stuff based on like who it was,

782
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,400
when it was, how much it was for. Again, that

783
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,840
makes it feel like, oh, the fact that somebody got

784
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,840
caught doing this is proof that it isn't a problem.

785
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,599
That Okay, that's I can grant you that that's like

786
00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:42,199
a tenuous argument to make. So no, I don't think

787
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,440
it's a real a widespread issue, but I think in

788
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,280
the way that it's being perceived, Yeah, that that's kind

789
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,840
of the the bigger deal at the moment, and perception matters.

790
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: I don't want to write that element at it.

791
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I think that is the bigger part

792
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,840
of this eth unless more comes out, which who knows.

793
00:41:00,639 --> 00:41:04,039
I'm skeptical that more will if we're trying to be

794
00:41:04,079 --> 00:41:09,239
solution oriented. I do think there's a case that curbing

795
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,480
or eliminating player props goes a really long way, and

796
00:41:13,519 --> 00:41:17,039
I think it's it's one that because of what we

797
00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:21,119
know about gambling and what you talked about a moment ago, like,

798
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,360
it is essentially like for some people, scientifically an addiction.

799
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,639
That is why there's disclaimers on almost every you know,

800
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,199
advertisement for it. People have some people have difficulty moderating

801
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,679
that behavior. So if that is true, and we sort

802
00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:42,199
of know now that it is, eliminating prop player props

803
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,519
is not going to cost these books any money because

804
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:47,800
these people are going to find other stuff to gamble on.

805
00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:49,440
I just like, you know what I mean, if you

806
00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:51,199
want to do it and you have the means to

807
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,639
do it, you're just gonna pick something else. You're gonna

808
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:56,480
pick what's available. I don't think there's a meaningful share

809
00:41:56,519 --> 00:41:58,679
of business that will be lost. And the NBA cares

810
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,199
about this too, But these books in particular, if you

811
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,960
just said we're gonna severely limit or eliminate player props,

812
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,760
because if you want to gamble, you're still gonna do it.

813
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,039
You'll bet on the team, You'll they'll find other ways

814
00:42:11,119 --> 00:42:13,159
to make that money back. I don't think it's like,

815
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,199
I don't think that's like a nuclear option, you know,

816
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,519
It's like it seems like a fairly clean solve for

817
00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:22,639
a lot of the problem for the rosier stuff in

818
00:42:22,639 --> 00:42:26,360
particular is what we're talking about, and because like, honestly,

819
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,599
the one of the problems that we're either dancing around

820
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:29,920
when we're getting to the heart of is just the

821
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,400
accessibility of it all is because these play not only

822
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,079
is it so easy to do this from your phone

823
00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:36,840
in the middle of the games, but it's all these

824
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,599
props are now. It used to be, remember when we

825
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:41,360
were coming up, it was these props are available mostly

826
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,440
just for football and there for like these big games,

827
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,440
and now there's just such nuanced player props. And so

828
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,800
I would agree with where you're saying that people would

829
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,960
find other ways to still bet on sports, and that

830
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:53,159
the bottom line may not be impacted that much. But

831
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,719
I almost wonder if we're running into so it's been

832
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,880
in twenty eighteen is when the Paps Act was overturned

833
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,159
by the Supreme Court and each have the ability to

834
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,360
now individually legalized sports betting.

835
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: Are we get to the point that we saw with

836
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,400
streaming services to where this has been such a growth

837
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,440
market and now you have to figure out a way

838
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,360
to continue growing And the only way to continue growing

839
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,360
is to offer more of these options. And I'm not

840
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:19,000
condoning that. I'm just if what you're saying sounds reasonable

841
00:43:19,039 --> 00:43:22,840
to me, it sounds unrealistic knowing that well, okay, like

842
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:25,159
might not be impacted much, but it's still going to

843
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:28,039
be impacted, and we answered our shareholders, so we can't

844
00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:28,519
allow that.

845
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's a great point. Like the idea that like,

846
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,880
well you won't lose any money is a good argument.

847
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:35,920
Is it kind of falls apart when it's like, well,

848
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,960
growth is always we forget staying even we want to

849
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,239
figure out ways to make more. You can't take this

850
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,280
avenue to make more away from us. We need to

851
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,199
come up. Not only do we need to keep player props,

852
00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:47,400
we need to find other ways, like to to some

853
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,920
you know, to make the pile bigger. That's a good argument.

854
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,800
I think like you would have to threaten something more

855
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,159
severe to get that concession from a lot of these books,

856
00:44:02,159 --> 00:44:07,760
probably where and I don't know that just to keep

857
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,079
it sort of local, the NBA should, like I don't

858
00:44:12,079 --> 00:44:14,400
know that that's the league's responsibility because they're trying to

859
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,280
grow revenue too, and the gambling partnerships are a huge

860
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,639
driver of that. I don't know if they should have

861
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,840
to threaten anything or if they and I very much

862
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,760
doubt that they would unless you know, there was some

863
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,039
kind of compulsion to do that.

864
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: And the two final things I'll add, well maybe even

865
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,679
the three final things is one, this changes if more

866
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,840
names come out, which it felt like the was it

867
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,400
the deputy at AG or what was it? Ptel himself

868
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,079
said it would. If it doesn't, that's only gonna lead

869
00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:41,360
to my further skepticism. Why was this such a dog

870
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,559
and pony show. Two, the NBA doesn't get to like

871
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:48,840
cry foul here at all, Like Adam Silver inextricably tied

872
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,079
this league to sports betting when that op ed however

873
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:52,880
many years ago, Like you just have to eat the

874
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,320
crow on this and too, because we didn't talk about it.

875
00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:59,159
If all this stuff is true, Chauncey billups terror like, yeah,

876
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,599
bannon them like you've done, bring the hammer down like

877
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,159
we went through this with the Clipper stuff. Is you

878
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,760
need to set a precedent to if money, if the

879
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,719
money these players are making clearly isn't gonna in the moment,

880
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,360
isn't gonna dissuade them from doing it, show that well

881
00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:15,920
it's gonna impact like your future livelihood then too. And

882
00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:18,239
so if this all turns out to be true, this

883
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,719
is you're not gonna hear me all like, well, Chauncey billups, No,

884
00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:23,280
you could argue that Chauncy Bilts didn't even deserve this

885
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,239
job that he has right now. So I would say

886
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,960
those would be the final things I would add. I

887
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:29,440
don't know you have any more thoughts on this. I

888
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,440
do hope people. I don't know that we came to

889
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,159
any mega conclusions, but I hope people at least appreciate

890
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:36,000
that we were trying to be honest. Just tell you,

891
00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:38,119
this is a tough It's a tough thing, and I

892
00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:40,280
don't have perfect answers, only terrible takes.

893
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: As No, the same that's gonna do it. Thanks everybody

894
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,159
for listening, for watching Rate Review, subscribe to all that stuff,

895
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,800
let us know what your thoughts are. And this is

896
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,039
this is a this is a real, like thorny complicated issue.

897
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:54,280
So just ripe for comments. I would say.

898
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 1: Spokes to Yet, I would like to bet on.

899
00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: Frank Mila Quina being unfairly excluded from the NBA shouts

900
00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:09,920
udom apologies. Jared Allen, m HM