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<v Speaker 1>Father Mike tests is my favorite episcopal priest. No offense

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<v Speaker 1>to all the other episcopal priests. I'm sure they're lovely,

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<v Speaker 1>but he takes my calls whenever I make them. So

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<v Speaker 1>he has joined us now to have a conversation about

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<v Speaker 1>the last week.

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<v Speaker 2>Father Mike. First off, welcome back.

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<v Speaker 3>It's good to be back, Mandy. I was good to

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<v Speaker 3>talk to you well, and.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a few things that I want to talk to

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<v Speaker 2>you about. One of them. I feel very hopeful about

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<v Speaker 2>this because.

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<v Speaker 1>Whenever we deal with some big, horrible in Colorado, I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like it's another shooting, you know, and all of

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<v Speaker 1>these horrible events. One of the things that I talk

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<v Speaker 1>about all the time is that, you know, one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that I think would be best for our

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<v Speaker 1>country is if we had a spiritual revival where people

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<v Speaker 1>started to turn to God instead of the news networks

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<v Speaker 1>and turn to God instead of assuming that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they have all the answers.

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<v Speaker 1>And since the beginning of the year, sales of the

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<v Speaker 1>Bible have gone up dramatically. Searches on Google for churches

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<v Speaker 1>new or Me have gone up dramatically, and this past

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<v Speaker 1>weekend especially, churches announced that they saw a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>new faces in the pews they had never seen before,

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<v Speaker 1>and that they were excited about the possibility of people

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<v Speaker 1>exploring their faith in a more significant way. Are you

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<v Speaker 1>seeing that at your churches in Wisconsin?

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<v Speaker 3>My numbers are up a little, not traumatically, but no.

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<v Speaker 3>I would love to experience that surge, but I have

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<v Speaker 3>not so far.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I here's hoping that the surge makes it to Wisconsin.

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<v Speaker 1>But what are your thoughts overall about the Bible sales

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<v Speaker 1>going up? About people searching for churches in their area.

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<v Speaker 3>So it depends on why. You've got to answer yourself

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<v Speaker 3>the why. So if they're buying Bibles to justify what

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<v Speaker 3>they already believe and they're not really calls us to do,

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<v Speaker 3>or if they're going to church to be surrounded by

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<v Speaker 3>people who think like they do and just by you know,

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<v Speaker 3>unchristlike behavior. I mean, the devil loves people going to

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<v Speaker 3>church who don't actually embrace the teachings of Christ. And

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<v Speaker 3>Christ said, I didn't come to boshe la, I came

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<v Speaker 3>to fulfill it. And there's two laws. Love one another

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<v Speaker 3>as I have loved you, and love the Father with

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<v Speaker 3>all your heartlind, soul.

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<v Speaker 4>And strength.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you talk about like people going or buying

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<v Speaker 1>a Bible to justify their viewpoint.

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<v Speaker 3>What do you mean, so you can isolate phrases in

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<v Speaker 3>the Bible to justify your cause. So one of the

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<v Speaker 3>big cases where people justify either whether you're for or

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<v Speaker 3>against same sex marriages, you can make the Bible defend

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<v Speaker 3>your cause. You can ha make it say yep, homosexuality

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<v Speaker 3>is an abomination, and you can make it say, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>but the Bible said Jesus had a special place with

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<v Speaker 3>John it. I mean, so both sides can make really

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<v Speaker 3>shortcases to defend what they they've already believed is right.

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<v Speaker 3>Instead of letting scripture reveal truth as it always does.

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<v Speaker 3>If you're open to what it's saying to you, can you.

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<v Speaker 2>Hold oh, yeah, it does, it does. It makes a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of sense.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things, and I don't know if you're

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<v Speaker 1>familiar at all with what Charlie Kirk was doing or

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<v Speaker 1>what he was saying, or any of that stuff, but

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<v Speaker 1>one of the things that I think has been really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting is that people are discovering that though he would say,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe, because of my faith that marriage is between

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<v Speaker 1>a man and a woman, but I welcome you in

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<v Speaker 1>this cause, Like I welcome conversations, I welcome fellowship, I welcome.

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<v Speaker 2>All of these things.

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<v Speaker 1>How do we get to a point where you can

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<v Speaker 1>say I have a strong Christian faith and these are

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<v Speaker 1>my beliefs, but I'm not necessarily going to try and

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<v Speaker 1>condemn a person because their life is different than mine.

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<v Speaker 3>And see, I have no problem with people who are

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<v Speaker 3>in churches that have a lot of structure, in a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of rules. I think God has created all these

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<v Speaker 3>staffs because that's what it takes to get us all home.

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<v Speaker 3>But when you start using your paintbrush outside your own box,

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<v Speaker 3>when you start saying, well, everybody who doesn't do it

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<v Speaker 3>this way is not going to heaven or is damned

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<v Speaker 3>to hell or you know, that's when I get really uncomfortable,

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<v Speaker 3>because there is a judge and I'm not him, and

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<v Speaker 3>that I and I use that line when I have

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<v Speaker 3>people come through the door that I don't necessarily understand.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's the world is shifted, and I'm the

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<v Speaker 3>last year of the boomers, and I don't get a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the stuff that my kids just say, for granted,

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<v Speaker 3>but my job is not to judge. My job is

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<v Speaker 3>to love, and if they don't belong in my church,

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<v Speaker 3>where do they belong?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that's a fair point.

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<v Speaker 1>But on the the other side of that is, if

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<v Speaker 1>you see someone making destructive choices, and I'm not even

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<v Speaker 1>talking about being gay, I'm just talking about destructive choices overall,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you, as a loving person of faith say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, I am not okay with.

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<v Speaker 2>The choices that you're making, but but I still.

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<v Speaker 1>Love you, and you know, how do you how do

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<v Speaker 1>you strike that balance without being one of those really

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<v Speaker 1>judgmental people that is going to drive people away from

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<v Speaker 1>a possible relationship with God when they might need it

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<v Speaker 1>the most.

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<v Speaker 3>So standing next to the person is the image I use,

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<v Speaker 3>and you can say, you know, if it's just, if

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<v Speaker 3>it's hurting themselves as someone else, you can say I

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<v Speaker 3>love you and I'll be here for you. But I cannot.

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<v Speaker 3>I cannot tell you that that behavior is acceptable.

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<v Speaker 4>It just isn't.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't I don't like to see you hurt yourself.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't like to see others be hurt because of you.

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<v Speaker 5>Does that make sense, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it makes perfect sense.

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<v Speaker 1>But I got to tell you, Mike, I've been working

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<v Speaker 1>really hard over the past couple of years on two

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<v Speaker 1>things to my own, like little journey here, right, I've

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<v Speaker 1>been trying to be less judgmental because to your point,

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<v Speaker 1>it is not my role to judge someone. Now, that

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean that I can that I will accept everything

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<v Speaker 1>that they're doing that I just think is wrong, because

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you can look at various choices that people

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<v Speaker 1>are making and say that is not going to take

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<v Speaker 1>them to a good place. Right, that's a that's a

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<v Speaker 1>dumb choice, and it's a it's a dumb way to

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<v Speaker 1>go through life. And I've also been working on trusting God.

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<v Speaker 1>And over the last week I have been in a

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<v Speaker 1>herculean struggle, mostly on the radio, swinging between just really

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<v Speaker 1>really vicious anger and then trying to get that under

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<v Speaker 1>control and say, this is not my role to judge.

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<v Speaker 1>My role is to just what be better and provide

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<v Speaker 1>a better commentary, and that'll be It'll be that'll bring

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<v Speaker 1>people together instead of further divide people. Trusting God has

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<v Speaker 1>been hard this past week. It really has Why do

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<v Speaker 1>bad things happen to good people?

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<v Speaker 5>You know?

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<v Speaker 3>And God do that? Or did a corrupt and sinful

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<v Speaker 3>world which God allowed to have free will and make choices?

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<v Speaker 3>Does God stand with us the other other part is

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<v Speaker 3>that the chicks are on the clock. Everybody has a

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<v Speaker 3>role to play. Now, did God want that man to die?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't believe that that was like a part of

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<v Speaker 3>a plan, but.

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<v Speaker 5>He had.

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<v Speaker 3>But nobody knows why it was his time. And nobody

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<v Speaker 3>knows I mean, so the hard finds what it's looking for.

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<v Speaker 4>And you can see.

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<v Speaker 3>All of the nasty parts of that father, the two

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<v Speaker 3>children not having their dad, the wife not having her husband,

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<v Speaker 3>people who found hope in his message, you know now

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<v Speaker 3>not having that.

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<v Speaker 6>But you know, is it is it a chance to.

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<v Speaker 5>Spark a real conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>Is it a chance for people to say, you know

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<v Speaker 3>what my comments on the Wednesday after it happened was,

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<v Speaker 3>this is what we've come to. We don't talk, we

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<v Speaker 3>don't listen, We just shoot each other.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, is that where we are that.

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<v Speaker 4>We can't even you know?

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<v Speaker 3>And from Proverbs I quoted to that in the text,

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<v Speaker 3>the wise man seeks to understand. The foolish man just

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<v Speaker 3>tries to be heard. So, you know, I so the

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<v Speaker 3>image I use with myself because I'm a talker. You

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<v Speaker 3>might not know that about me is talks are really

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<v Speaker 3>good hunters. Because ninety percent of their life they are looking.

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<v Speaker 5>And listening, and so when they go.

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<v Speaker 3>To hunt, they are very effective. And so I'll be

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<v Speaker 3>sitting in a circle off stape. Be the hawk, eat

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<v Speaker 3>the hawk.

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<v Speaker 5>Because I'm just have you ever just held on to

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<v Speaker 5>your silence until you bust into the conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>Because you have something so great to say that the

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<v Speaker 3>world needed to hear it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't do that. Now, I'm just kidding. And then

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<v Speaker 2>I don't do that. No, I'm just kidding. No, I

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<v Speaker 2>but let's do time.

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<v Speaker 1>But let me here's the issue that I'm having, Mike,

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<v Speaker 1>is that after and I wasn't like a Charlie Kirk

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<v Speaker 1>super fan. I've watched more Charlie Kirk content in the

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<v Speaker 1>last week than I had watched in the last ten years, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I wasn't in his demo. I was impressed

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<v Speaker 1>with the way he seemed to connect to college students.

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<v Speaker 2>But since his.

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<v Speaker 1>Death, some of the people in our society it's not

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<v Speaker 1>enough for them to not be at all concerned about

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<v Speaker 1>the two children and the wife that are left behind.

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<v Speaker 1>They've been downright gleeful and nasty and awful about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that part for me, I wish I wish.

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<v Speaker 1>I could be shocked about it, but I'm not, And

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<v Speaker 1>so I find myself matching that level of anger, and

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<v Speaker 1>then I have to try and ratchet myself back because

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<v Speaker 1>that's just not who I want to be and not

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<v Speaker 1>who I am naturally.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do you sort through that?

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<v Speaker 5>How do you?

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<v Speaker 1>How do you deal with people that have shown themselves

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<v Speaker 1>to have no humanity in this situation?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you know what Christ would do is not not

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<v Speaker 6>justify them and not give them credence, but he would

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<v Speaker 6>love them and pray for them and.

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<v Speaker 3>Try to walk with them, be there, not walk towards

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<v Speaker 3>them and not accept the behavior, but never ever cut

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<v Speaker 3>them off so that the pathback wasn't open. And the

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<v Speaker 3>other thing I thought about when you've said.

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<v Speaker 6>How do you?

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<v Speaker 5>How do you do this?

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<v Speaker 4>We need to spend.

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<v Speaker 3>More time And I've been on this bandwag It for

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<v Speaker 3>a long time being very articulate about what is really

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<v Speaker 3>important to us, what are our values and what do

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<v Speaker 3>we believe? Because if not, when stuff like this happens,

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<v Speaker 3>we get sucked down the rabbit hole. Now, someone he

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<v Speaker 3>was gleeful over.

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<v Speaker 5>A human being losing his life and leaving.

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<v Speaker 3>A family with old a husband and father. That is

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<v Speaker 3>uncrazylike behavior, and that is not acceptable.

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<v Speaker 5>Chriate would have never condoned, celebrated someone else's.

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<v Speaker 4>Despear and hurts, Challenge them, push them, walk away from them,

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<v Speaker 4>but never celebrate their pain and their suffering.

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<v Speaker 2>Great advice. I'm trying to take it to heart. And

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<v Speaker 2>today I've been actually a lot less angry.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been a lot less angry than I have the

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<v Speaker 1>prior week because, honestly, after watching so much Charlie Kirk

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<v Speaker 1>content where he had respectful debates with people that he

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<v Speaker 1>disagreed with, and the part about his life and Mike.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't even know if you've ever watched any of

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<v Speaker 1>his content, but talk about a guy who was open

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<v Speaker 1>about his relationship with Christ in a way that in

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<v Speaker 1>our culture has not been accepted over the last decade.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I know a lot of people of strong

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<v Speaker 1>and deep and abiding faith who don't talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't talk about it in public because it's not cool,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not acceptable, right, You're going to be shunned as

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<v Speaker 1>some weirdo.

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<v Speaker 2>So that part of it, the scene him talk.

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<v Speaker 1>About it, and I thought to myself, that's what I

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<v Speaker 1>want to take away from this, That it's okay to

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<v Speaker 1>be open about your relationship with God, and there's a.

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<v Speaker 3>Thousand ways to do it, and his way should be acceptable.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, you can listen or don't listen. You have

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<v Speaker 3>you have a choice in there. I mean to kill

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<v Speaker 3>someone and said so, I mean, so absurdly overreact.

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<v Speaker 6>It's just it's not how is that okay?

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<v Speaker 3>On any level?

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<v Speaker 5>You You may not agree with him, it may make

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<v Speaker 5>you super angry.

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<v Speaker 3>But when did we get to the point where we

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<v Speaker 3>do these ultimate acts and retaliation for disagreeing with some.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's the bigger question.

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<v Speaker 1>And you talk to the main man upstairs and find

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<v Speaker 1>out and let me know the answer.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, you ask, I get right on that. I know

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<v Speaker 2>you have a direct line. Pick up the bat phone

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<v Speaker 2>and just call God right now, Father.

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<v Speaker 5>My test, I got a question for you exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate your perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>As always, and uh and and and I'm sure that

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<v Speaker 1>people listening who are just trying to make sense of

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<v Speaker 1>everything that's happened over the last week appreciate it too.

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<v Speaker 4>Man.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll talk to you soon.

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<v Speaker 6>All right.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me on