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Speaker 1: It is fall, you know, it is that time where

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days are getting darker and things are getting creepier. We're

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getting We're around the time of Halloween and all of

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those questions. And so a few weeks ago, when I

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was flying, I usually don't watch these kinds of movies,

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but for some reason I got pulled into watching a

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movie from that series called The Conjuring. And so I've

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actually never watched these movies. I kind of knew about

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them slightly, and so I decided to watch the I

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think the first one on the plane, and I was

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pleasantly surprised.

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Speaker 2: I kind of enjoyed it. I was surprised to see

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how I would say how.

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Speaker 1: Christian it was, you know, in the sense that the

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characters are obviously not are not hostile to Christianity. They

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seem to suggest that they are Christians, that they believe

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in God, you know, they call upon priests in order

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to do exorcisms. They also seem to believe that the

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hauntings are not at the actual spirits, but are are

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more of a kind of kind of demonic that kind

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of stuff. But so I was kind of, you know,

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pleasantly interested in I realized that this whole conjuring series

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was actually there are all these other movies that were

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kind of attached to it, all these other horror movies

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what is it called Annabelle and the Nun, and that

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these are based on true stories. They're based on the

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story of this couple that you see in the movie

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that are kind of like you could say, supernatural detectives

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that go around and help people that are having these

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kind of hauntings or these kind of supernatural phenomena things

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that happen in their life. And so, you know, and

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I realized that this was related to the Amideville horror

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story and all of these these kind of haunting stories

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that exist in the United States. And so I watched

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the movie and I knew that it was kind of

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based on true stories. But one of the things I

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noticed in the movie, and this is really what I

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want to talk about, is the way in which the

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story was exaggerated. And so, you know, in the movie,

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things get really wild, you know, and so in think,

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all kinds of crazy things happen. You know, women get

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dragged on their feet on the on the floor with

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their hair. You know, chairs float in the air, and

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you know, beds shake, and you know, people get.

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Speaker 2: Bruised, and there's all of this.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of these things happen, you know, and

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these these visions and these these creatures appear and all

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of it, and it's quite it's really quite excessive. And

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so it made me kind of curious to read the

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like more historical accounts of some of these stories. And

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so I looked into the story of Annabelle and I

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and I saw how in the story of annabel you know,

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there were that they found these like scribbled notes about

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this with this doll that is supposed to be possessed,

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and you know, people would wake up in the morning

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with like scratches on their hands, and there were these

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these kind of Poulter Guy's type activities where things would

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move and there would be, uh, doors opening, but obviously

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nowhere near the kind of craziness that you see in

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the movie, where you know, things float upside down and

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all kinds of all kinds of like excessive things. And

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it made me meditate a little bit about how why

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it is that when they tell the vision in the movie,

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why they why they tell it the way they do.

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Why is it that in movies there's a kind of

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dramatization of you know, events that happen in life. Why

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that's necessary, why in some ways it is inevitable.

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Speaker 2: And then also.

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Speaker 1: I want to help you understand how sometimes although it

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is inevitable and it's important that this kind of process happens,

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that sometimes this can be weaponized against us. This is

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Jonathan Peshel, Welcome to the symbolic world. In a lot

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of legends, you know, when you look at the legends

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of Alexander the Great, you'll notice that as you read

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the legends the legends, the more time goes forward, the

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more the legends are extraordinary, the more they are fantastical.

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And often people what they like to do is they

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like to.

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Speaker 2: Debunk these things.

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Speaker 1: They like to say, you know, you know, Alexander the

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Great didn't fly up to the heavens with you know,

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with with griffins in order to see the heavens.

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Speaker 2: That didn't happen.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, Alexander the Great didn't personally come up

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to the King of Persia, you know, and witness him

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die just you know, come to the scene just before

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he dies and hold him in his arms, and and

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you know, and hear his the story of his death.

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You know, that kind of movie moment, you know, when

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you read these legends, you really get these uh, these

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images of that that are in movies, you know, And

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so people like to debunk it, and uh, which you know,

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I get it.

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Speaker 2: I understand why people want to do that.

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Speaker 1: But what I like to do is rather ask the question,

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you know, why are we doing this to these stories?

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That is, why is it that these stories are becoming legendary?

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What is it in the story that makes it become legendary?

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Because nobody is making up legends. You know about the

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barbecue chicken that I cooked a few weeks ago, Like,

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there's no one telling fantastical stories. Yeah, uh, you know

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about my ride to the to the grocery store today, right,

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And so what what is it that makes certain stories

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kind of accumulate legends around them? And one of them

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seems to be that in order for us to see

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the meaning of something, the deep meaning of something, sometimes

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you have to in some ways, let's say, overemphasize the pattern.

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That is, what's going to happen is that you're going

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to accumulate details around the story in order to heighten

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the pattern. But the pattern already has to be there,

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you know, in some ways. If you think about the

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story of Alexander the Great, who goes up into the

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heavens with his griffins, and here's the voice of God

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telling him to turn back, you know, because he's reached

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his limit. You could understand that this is related, of

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course to the story of Alexander. That is, the story

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of Alexander is in some ways the story of someone

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who had great ambition, right, the ambition to know all

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things and to rule the entire world, but that at

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some point he could not do it, that at some

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point God intervened and reminded him, you know, literally by

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his death, that he would not become the king of

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the entire world. That is not possible for a man

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to do so. And it is not possible for a

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man to peer in to all the mysteries, right, some

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mysteries will hold back. So you can see that it

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completely applies more to Alexander then you know, to the

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guy who mows my lawn, let's say, And which would

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be the reason why these stories would accumulate around these

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these these legend would accumulate around these types of stories.

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And you can imagine that it's the same for the

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story of the conjuring movies, which is that it's like

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I promise you that if you had a doll in

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your house and you had invited a spirit to live

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in it, and then you would wake up in the

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morning and there was a little note that was scribbled,

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or you would wake up and the doll kept changing

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places and you found scratches on your arms that you

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would be absolutely terrified out of your wits, like this

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would change, this would affect your life forever. But that

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doesn't make a movie, you know, it doesn't make a

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story that people would want to tell and when people

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would want to remember and retell each other. And so

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if you make the doll, because that doll, that Annabelle

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doll in the actual story was like this little raggedy

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a doll, It wasn't particularly creepy. So in the movie

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they made her super creepy looking, and then you know,

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they made it the scribbles all over the walls, and

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you know, like it was really really intense.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: You know, that is the way that you are able

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to get people's attention and help them see the pattern

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that's already there, but that in some ways it is

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too mild in order to be retold and to be remembered.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing the magician David Copperfield. They asked him

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if he had ever seen real magic, and because he

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does all these performances and stuff, and if you believed

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in real magic, And I remember his answer was really funny.

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He said, yeah, yeah, I've seen real magic before. You know,

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it happens like there are there are things that aren't

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just in some ways illusions that there is a capacity

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to the affect the world with will, and that he's

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he's seen moments of what he calls real magic. But

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he said it's not interesting to make a show out

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of Like I couldn't make a show out of real magic.

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It's just boring, you know. I mean, it's interesting in

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the sense. And so his work, which is all this

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extrapolation and excess, is in some ways to capture, let's say,

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the spark of real magic, but make it into something

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that's a spectacle and that people will pay attention to.

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Speaker 2: And remember, hello.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, we are finally announcing our Parodiso class. We have

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done two already. We have the Inferno, we have the Purgatory,

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and now we are moving to Paradise.

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Speaker 3: That is right, Dante himself says Inferno that we prefer

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hell to Paradise, and similarly, most of us prefer to

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read Inferno, but when we come to reading parodis, so

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we're very confused. So we're going to be actually taking

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you through that poem line by line like we did

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with Inferno Purgator, and actually looking at how Dante very

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carefully reconciles some of the contradictory traditions about the heavens

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in the Christian apocalyptic tradition and does that through the

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persons of the saints.

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Speaker 1: And so this is truly important for us right now

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with the re enchantment of the world happening, we have

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to be able to look at those that that did

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it in the most powerful way that we're able to

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reconcile the ancient pagan traditions with Christianity, with his modern understanding,

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the most modern understanding of the cosmos that he had.

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Speaker 2: And so this is the work that we need to do.

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So we need to learn from Dante.

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Speaker 1: So the course starts November fifth to December third, right,

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is that what I've got five weeks two to five

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on Wednesdays.

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Speaker 3: So the cost is going to be one hundred ninety

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dollars us and if you don't want to watch live,

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you'll be able to follow along at your own pace.

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Just like with all of our courses, you'll have access

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to lecture, recording, slides, additional readings, and you can still

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ask questions and interact with your fellow the classmates in

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our circle forums.

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Speaker 2: And so join us.

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Speaker 1: After all of this suffering through Inferno and Purgatorio, the

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symbolic world finally goes to heaven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, join us.

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Speaker 1: And so you can imagine that this applies to all

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kinds of stories that, especially in time, if we want

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to remember them, they in some ways have to snap

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I call it. I kind of think about it this way.

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They kind of have to snap to a kind of

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legendary pattern. Right. There are certain tropes that are easier

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to remember that will make the story, make you understand

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what's important. So, if you have a sword and that

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this is the sword that the king used to win

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the battle, then in time that sword will have magical properties,

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That sword will be flaming, that sword will will have

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a will of its own that will manifest itself in

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the world. And what it's doing is in some ways

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remembering something which is true about the event, and it's

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not somebody.

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Speaker 2: It's not wilful.

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Speaker 1: Often obviously, in the story of the conjuring, it's wilful,

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But in the story in the way that these stories

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often get remembered and get told, it's often not willful.

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Speaker 2: It's mostly.

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Speaker 1: A perception of the pattern and a desire for us

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to remember the importance of the story by, let's say,

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in the way that it accumulates this kind of legendary material. Now,

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what I told you is that I want, I promise

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you that I would tell you how this can be

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used against you.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is that it's used against.

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Speaker 1: Us now all the time, and I want to give

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you a certain example of this, right. And so in

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the nineteen eighties there was what we call the Satanic Panic,

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if you remember, and so pastors in churches became very

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concerned with the with the satanic imagery that appeared in

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rock and roll, that appeared in popular culture. Sure, and

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what grew out of it was a kind of frenetic

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energy about notions that there were these like secret Satanic

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cults that were everywhere in the in the United States,

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that were, you know, kidnapping children, that were doing blood

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rituals that were doing all kinds of crazy stuff.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't seem they didn't seem to have been able to

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find proof of that massive network of Satanic churches that

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were doing all these kind of crazy stuff. And so

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what happened is that in some ways the debunkers were

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able to debunk it. And so they debunked the Satanic

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panic and they told us, oh, this is all ridiculous,

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this is all nonsense, this is all conspiracy theory, and

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therefore all of this doesn't make any sense. You pastors

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stopped saying that there's all this satanic stuff. Now, the

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question is was the rock and roll they were talking

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about satanic? And the answer is, of course, of course,

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it was, what the hell are you talking about? Of

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course the rock and roll they were talking about was satanic,

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you know, like it was using satanic tropes in order

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to get attention and in order to invert morality, and

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in order to to to encourage rebellion, and in.

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Speaker 2: Order to do all these things. It was all there

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in the music.

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Speaker 1: Everything that is satanic was there in the satanic music,

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you know. And because the extreme version that kind of

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appeared as a way for people to notice and as

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a way for people to be able to kind of

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trace the pattern right and see it in a very

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vivid way. That is, of these of this giant, huge

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conspiracy of Satanic churches that exists all across the United

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States and that have all of these networks and underground

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cads where they move children and stuff that maybe that

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that they couldn't find that, But it doesn't mean that

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the rock and Roll isn't satanic. I mean the rock

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and Roll was obviously satanic, and it was obviously inverting

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everything that is true and good and beautiful, and that

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is important, Like that's a big deal, because satanic things

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aren't good for you.

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Speaker 2: You know, Satanic things if you, if you, if you,

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let's say.

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Speaker 1: Ingest them in moments that aren't just Halloween or like

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not just like in the in the just kind of

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as a kind of opposite of what it is that

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you should you should be embodying. They will lead you

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to your own destruction, right, And this has been the

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case now for several of the things that we see

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in culture.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that people are able.

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Speaker 1: To do then is to point to the extreme version

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and make that super salient too. In terms of the

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enemies of the pastors that tried to say that rock

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and roll with satanic they point to the super salient version,

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right to the kind of huge, massive vision of these

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satanic churches that are taking over the US.

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Speaker 2: They say that that's false. And then what they they're

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able to.

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Speaker 1: Do is legitimize the Satanism that's in the music. They're

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able to say, well, it's not that, it's just this,

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you know, it's just the the it's just theater. It's

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just it's just satanic theater, right. You know, it's like

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Alice Cooper, you know, he he's just putting on a show.

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Speaker 2: He's you know, he the the these these.

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Speaker 1: Satanic kind of bands, Black Sabbath, all these bands there,

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it's just a you know, it's just a it's just theater, right,

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And it's like, but it's satanic theater that is telling

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your kids to live in degenerate ways, and so you

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could understand, you know. So it's like they're able to justify, uh,

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these things by pointing to the super salient one. And

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this is something that happened, you know, NonStop, that's been

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happening NonStop ever since. And so you know, some of

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the crazier examples were like Pizzagate. If you remember Pizzagate, Well,

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a sudden people were noticing that there are all these

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threads that seemed to point to how there were you know,

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child trafficking and pedophiles, and it grew into a massive,

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obviously super salient version. Again that was similar to the

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Satanic panic, where you had these like Satanic elites that

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were engaging in all of this like crazy behavior.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: And then it kind of in some ways led up

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to Jeffrey Epstein and the idea that Jeffrey Epstein on

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his island there was like a temple with an underground

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thing and in the in that little temple they were

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sacrificing humans and all and were you know, raping children

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and doing all this crazy thing. And so by the

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time someone went on the the Epstein's island and they

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filmed that little temple, you realized that it was all

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that temple was just a front, Like there was nothing

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about that temple. It was like a fake temple. It

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was not actually even a real temples, like a square

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box with like a fake dome on it, and it

331
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had painted patterns on it, and inside there was like

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a grand piano, and you know, it was and it

333
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was like being renovated. It was just kind of it

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was just kind of a boring And then the debunkers

335
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told us that, see, none of this is real, Like

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none of this is real. It's like, oh, but there

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is child trafficking and the obviously there are pedophiles, and

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obviously there are networks the pedophiles.

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Speaker 2: You know those exist.

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Speaker 1: We know that there are networks of pedophiles and that

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they're you know that there are these really important people

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that get caught with with with child pornography. There are

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these kind of important people that get caught with doing

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these kinds of things. But it's not this super crazy, satanic,

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like insane conspiracy massive version of it, you know. And

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so what they're able to do, which is insane if

347
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you think about it, that people are able to legitimize

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completely unacceptable behavior by pointing to the super salient version

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and debunking it, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: It's like Epstein wasn't a Masad agent for goodness sake,

352
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Like there's no contract between the Masad and Epstein that

353
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you can find that would prove that Epstein is a

354
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that was an actual agent that was on the payroll

355
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you know, that was that was getting you know, bank

356
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checks and stubs with his name on it that would

357
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show that he was you know, hired by the Israeli

358
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government to be to be an agent for them.

359
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Speaker 2: It's like okay, but it's like there are all this

360
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in there's this.

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Speaker 1: Whole influence part here, right that is that that that Yeah,

362
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of course he worked with this in this person that

363
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is related to the massade, and of course he had

364
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contracts with this in this person that's related to the massa,

365
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but he's not a massad agent, you know, like James Bond,

366
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but like zero zero seven for the massade. That's ridiculous.

367
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That's a that's a complete nonsense. And what you see

368
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is that people are constantly doing this.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: Now the problem, I think for people that have wisdom,

371
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one of the things you have to be able to

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do is you have to be able to pull out

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from all of this and be able to notice that

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certain patterns kind of appear in culture. You know, and

375
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we've talked about this several times in terms of conspiracy

376
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theory in general, that conspiracy theories usually a kind of

377
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alarm system when when people people start to see patterns

378
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in culture, and they start to perceive that their elites

379
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are not on their side, right, that their elites are

380
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not they're not acting for their interests.

381
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Speaker 2: You should pay attention to how that's happening.

382
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Speaker 1: And even if even if someone is able to debunk

383
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,640
the super salient version, you have to be able to

384
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be attentive and intelligent enough to nonetheless see that it

385
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is usually pointing to something that is real in the world,

386
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but that it's us like. In order for people to

387
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pay attention, in order for people to kind of be

388
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able to circle around a certain story, it tends to

389
00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:48,720
move towards exaggeration, right, and it tends to kind of

390
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move towards towards a kind of super salient. And so,

391
00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:54,440
because you can think that if when you're telling a

392
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when you're telling a story and you want to connect

393
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things together, right, because the story ties events and people together,

394
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you will tend to want to be efficient in that story, right,

395
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So you want to make the connections clear so that

396
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people can understand the narrative, right, so people can kind

397
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of understand the narrative.

398
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Speaker 2: And so in a in a story, you would in

399
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,720
fact make the.

400
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 1: A person an actual agent, and you would show them

401
00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,000
receiving orders from a shady character, you know, in a

402
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,160
in a hallway, and then he would and that person

403
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,880
would agree to follow the orders of the person that

404
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,680
they receive. And therefore, you know, that's how you tell

405
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,480
the story. That's how you tell it, James Bond story.

406
00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:44,960
That's how you you're able to tell a story. But

407
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:46,839
the thing is that in the world and in the

408
00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,440
world of events, things are a lot messier. And so

409
00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:52,359
you know, the idea then in the in the world

410
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of everyday life, that someone would have influence from a

411
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,000
certain source and would act in accord with that influence

412
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doesn't mean that the relationship in the world has to

413
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be formal. It could actually be quite informal, but it

414
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would be a form of influence. But when you want

415
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,680
to tell that or you want to remember that, and

416
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:16,200
especially if most people want to remember that in a way,

417
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,039
they tend to formalize those relationships. Think about how in

418
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,119
a movie, what you'll see. You know, if they show

419
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,400
a bomb in a movie, they have to show a

420
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,839
timer on the bomb, right, because if when you're watching

421
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,720
the movie, because you don't know what a bomb is,

422
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,920
then in order to know that it's a bomb. You

423
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,240
have to see a timer, right, and once you see

424
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,559
the timer, then you know that it's a bomb. Now,

425
00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:43,960
what a terrorist makes a bomb? They don't put a

426
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,960
stupid timer on it. That's ridiculous. Why would they put

427
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,000
a timer on their bomb, like a visible timer on

428
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:52,759
their bomb? That doesn't would not make any sense in

429
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:55,400
the practical world. But you can understand why in a

430
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,880
movie you want to show the timer on the bomb,

431
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,680
because there are certain that we use to recognize something

432
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,519
quickly and know that it is real. And this is

433
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:10,119
a process that happens in all kinds of ways. You know,

434
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,599
in in a movie, what you want is the two

435
00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:18,640
bad guys in the in the two armies to ultimately meet, right.

436
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,759
What you want is you want Captain America to punch

437
00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:27,000
Hitler right. You want that confrontation to become simple and immediate.

438
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,079
And so what you want is you want Alexander the

439
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,319
Great to meet the King of Persia right and have

440
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,519
that experience where he he is there physically in the

441
00:23:35,519 --> 00:23:38,880
presence of the king and sees him being betrayed by

442
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,759
his soldier and dying in front of him. That's how

443
00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:46,240
you remember something you don't. It's very you don't remember things,

444
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,279
or you don't want to tell the type of story

445
00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:50,680
where it's like, well, actually, Alexander send a letter to

446
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,240
the King of Persia, and then the King of Persia answered,

447
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,279
and then one of the intermediaris of the King of Persia,

448
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,799
you know, send him this letter, and he realized that

449
00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:01,119
there was something going on, and whatever does it happen?

450
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,519
In one of his spies was there in the nation

451
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,599
and saw what happened. However, the mechanical causes it becomes

452
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,400
really messy and complicated. If you want to remember it

453
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,880
and to put it in a story, if you want

454
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,160
to put it in a movie, then you have Alexander

455
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,720
and the King meet, right, And that's why stories are

456
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,039
told the way they are, and that's why they remember

457
00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:20,920
the way they are. But if you want to not

458
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:26,240
be manipulated, especially now in the world of narrative manipulation,

459
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,319
you also have to be able to recognize that in

460
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,480
the messiness of events, things don't have to snap to

461
00:24:35,519 --> 00:24:37,359
the pattern in that way for you to be able

462
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:41,000
to see the pattern, you know, even though when it's

463
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:43,680
represented and when we retell the stories and how we

464
00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:47,279
remember them, it will tend to snap to that pattern. Right,

465
00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:50,440
you'll tend to remember the bomb in your mind with

466
00:24:50,759 --> 00:24:53,720
a timer on it, even though you know, even though

467
00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:58,119
that isn't necessarily what a bomb looks like when you

468
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,240
want to cause an ex in or a terrorist event.

469
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:05,160
And so so, now pay attention to the stories around you,

470
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,519
you know, if you want, Maybe it'd be interesting to

471
00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,720
see in the comments if you have examples of this

472
00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:15,599
where in some ways we've been manipulated because of the

473
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:20,319
story version, and how there is a real pattern here.

474
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,160
The story version is the way that it's told and remembered.

475
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,240
But people debunk the story version and that and they

476
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,680
legitimize the they legitimize the messier version by saying.

477
00:25:32,519 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 2: Well, it's not that, it's just it's just this down

478
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,079
here below.

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Speaker 1: And so it'd be fun to see examples if you

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can come up with them in the comments. I will

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I will look into the comments and see if you

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have some good ones. But this is happening all the time, folks.

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We are constantly being manipulated in this way. So it's

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useful to know that. But it's also useful to know

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how to tell a good story. Like if you're going

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00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,240
to tell the story, you have to tell it in

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a way that is memorable, or else people are aren't

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going to remember and aren't going to care. So I

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hope this was useful. Guys, thanks for attention and I

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we'll talk to you very soon.

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Speaker 2: Bye bye.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

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00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,039
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

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00:26:14,079 --> 00:26:17,200
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

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00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,160
with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So

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go to the Symbolic world dot com and thank you

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00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,920
for your support.