WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.200 Oh hi, hey, it's the second place pie at the 2 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:05.759 bakeoff Alley Ward and here we are with a deep 3 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:10.320 dark exploration for you of some frickin' caves. Let's get musty, 4 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.720 Let's get into the hole as fast as we can, 5 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:16.000 all right, this guest is a well decorated and lauded 6 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:20.920 nat geo explore, a paleoclimate researcher, a caver. And they 7 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.079 studied physical geography at the University of Birmingham in the UK, 8 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:28.399 studying microclimatology of caves, and then got a PhD at 9 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:31.239 the School of Geographical Sciences at the University of Bristol. 10 00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:35.719 They're now an assistant professor of paleoclimatology at the University 11 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:39.560 of Innsbruck. And she has explored caves all over the world, 12 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:43.240 including in the remote reaches of Greenland. And we'll hear 13 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.240 about those adventures in a minute. But first, thank you 14 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:47.119 to all the patrons who support the show for a 15 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:50.399 dollar or more a month at patreon dot com slash ologies, 16 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:53.200 where you can submit questions we may read on the show. 17 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.119 You can also wear your ologies merch to find other 18 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:58.640 ologites in the wild. We have that at ologiesmerch dot 19 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:00.560 com which is linked in the show notes. If you 20 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.600 have not heard, if you're looking for a kid friendly episode, 21 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:06.000 we have started a new show called Smologies that you 22 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.680 can find anywhere you get podcasts. That's a linked in 23 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.959 the show notes. And also thank you to everyone who's 24 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:13.319 ever written a review. They helped so much. I have 25 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:15.599 read them all and to prove it, I pick a 26 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.599 fresh plucked one. And this week it's from Katie Holyfield 27 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:22.280 who wrote that they always feel like they are smarter, kinder, 28 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.159 and more understanding after listening. Also, they had a dream 29 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.000 that they met me at a bakery and that I 30 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.159 helped them pick out the perfect pastry and that we 31 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:34.239 became best friends. Katie Hollyfield can't go wrong with an 32 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:37.560 almond croissant unless you're allergic to almonds or dairy or 33 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.239 you have Celiac. Let's get down into it. Let's get 34 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:43.799 dirty with the word spielology, which comes from once again 35 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.920 the Greek. It always comes from Greek, pretty much always spilio, 36 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.719 meaning caves. And in this episode we're going to cover 37 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.120 everything you ever wanted to know, like how deep does 38 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:54.200 something have to be to really be a cave? How 39 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:57.159 dark is it really down there? Do cavers ever lose 40 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.359 their damn minds? What's the longest this guest has lived 41 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:05.840 in a cave? Huge crystal formations, stalactites, stalagmites, cave clouds, 42 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.960 show caves. Who counts as a spelunker. What ancient climate 43 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:13.280 science can tell us about our current kind of sticky situation? 44 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.199 Cave diving, cave rescues, creepy caves, gated caves, haunted caves. 45 00:02:18.439 --> 00:02:22.680 Old school versus new school mapping and why nothing beats 46 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:28.479 the Longing for the underground With Professor Explorer, paleoclimatologist and 47 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:45.199 yes bilologist, Doctor Gena Moseley pacodermatology, cryptozoology, lithology, nanotechnology, meteorology, pathology, seriology, steleology. 48 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:51.000 I'm Gina Mosley, and. 49 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.080 I use she Do you refer to yourself as a 50 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.120 speleologist or is that a term that only people who 51 00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:59.039 are not cave people like to use. 52 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:01.240 That's quite a funny question. 53 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.599 Now, I do consider myself as peliologist also a paleoclimatologist, 54 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:08.879 so there's kind of two branches of science that I'm 55 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:12.159 working with. And something that I often hear kind of 56 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:17.639 American audience. It uses the term spilunka which is a 57 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.960 term that British cavers generally don't tend to use. 58 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.960 I have to say I feel like someone who's a spilunkers. 59 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:27.039 I think of them as someone who could go down 60 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.719 just for sport or thrills, or because they like to 61 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:33.680 be terrified. But a spieleologist definitely seems like you're down 62 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:37.719 there with a clipboard, you're collecting data, you're measuring stuff. 63 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.560 I guess it depends who you're talking to, but yeah, 64 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:45.919 everyone everyone identifies a little bit differently, I guess, even 65 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:46.960 in their own sports. 66 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:50.400 Just to say notes. So I was a big ignorant 67 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:52.280 mess to this, but I just found out that in 68 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.879 the UK some people call caving potholing because it's like 69 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.280 going in a pothole, but that may just refer to 70 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:03.039 the exploration of more vertical caves, whilst spilunking is about 71 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.840 checking out horizontal caves. But then I learned that calling 72 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.840 someone a spilunker is like saying that they're a cave poser. 73 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.680 And this dates back nearly forty years when the editor 74 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:18.600 of the magazine American Caving Accidents, which subscribe me immediately, 75 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:24.399 once wrote the term spilunker denotes someone untrained and unknowledgeable 76 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.399 in current exploration techniques, and caver is for those who 77 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:33.040 are trained and knowledgeable. And some cavers they have bumper 78 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:38.959 stickers that say cavers rescue spilunkers. What just when you 79 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.680 thought caves were at their darkest? Who more shade? 80 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:48.319 I would say speleologists are going into caves. Some study, 81 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:52.279 for instance, the geology or the formation of the caves. 82 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.839 Others might be studying biology, or others might be doing 83 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.600 the exploration and the mapping. Those people would also be 84 00:04:58.639 --> 00:04:59.959 speleologists as well. 85 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:00.240 Well. 86 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.279 People are going into a cave or going into this field. 87 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.319 Is there a big chance that you really dig caves? 88 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:09.079 Like you really like going and them? 89 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:11.600 Oh, I thought you meant the other kind of digging 90 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.439 there removing sales and stuff, which peliologists do love to 91 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.879 do as well. I have to say, you know, yeah, yeah, 92 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:22.480 generally speaking, people that really want to go into caves 93 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:27.720 really yeah dig caves as you say, and jokes aside. 94 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.439 There are people that spend their free time digging out 95 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.759 sediment and boulders because they're so driven by trying to 96 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:39.199 find that next bit of cave passage that nobody has 97 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.519 ever seen before them, that they spend weeks, months, years, 98 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:49.079 decades literally diging caves to try and find the passages beyond. 99 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:52.519 Yeah, do people in your field have any idea how 100 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.519 much of the caving systems out there have been like 101 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:01.920 uncovered and how much are just completely unknown to us? 102 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.399 Yeah, that is a question that often comes up. 103 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:10.199 I would say, from a truly scientific perspective, we've got 104 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.199 no idea how much is yet to be discovered? 105 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:14.959 Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. 106 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.240 However, other people would say, take the average amount of 107 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:24.560 known cave in limestone, for instance, and then look at 108 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.560 how much limestone is on Earth, and then guess how 109 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.079 much there is left to be discovered, for instance, and 110 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.519 that would be a huge amount. But as a kind 111 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.759 of true let's say scientist, I'm not going to have 112 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:37.319 a guess at that really, So. 113 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:42.079 Even spieleeologists have no idea. And I find this thrilling, 114 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:44.959 like when you have one of those dreams that I 115 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.399 have all the time that your house has an undiscovered room, 116 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.120 like you open up the medicine chest and then suddenly 117 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.839 there's another house in there where you see tiktoks of 118 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:59.720 people who find catacombs underneath their farmhouses, And to think 119 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.879 the earth has those all over the Dare place are 120 00:07:03.959 --> 00:07:06.199 a lot of the caves. Are they limestone or are 121 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.480 there granite caves or are there obsidian caves or do 122 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.120 they typically happen only in a certain type of rack. 123 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:18.800 No. Caves are basically holes in the ground, and essentially 124 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:23.639 they're mostly found in limestone. This is because limestone's quite 125 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.040 easy to dissolve with a very weak acid. So as 126 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.360 soon as you have some water and it mixes with 127 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.560 carbon dioxide in a soil, it becomes very slightly acidic, 128 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.920 and then that allows for dissolution of limestone and that 129 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:41.399 ultimately is what forms the majority of caves. But indeed 130 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:44.839 you can get caves inside glaciers and then they would 131 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.879 be glacier caves. You can also find lava tube so 132 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.839 these are caves that form from volcanic eruptions. When they're 133 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:56.240 outside of the lava flow cools down and hardens, but 134 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:58.920 the inside is still molten and flows through, and then 135 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.480 when that eruption's finally finished, then you have lava tubes. 136 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.160 Brand new ones are being formed in Iceland, you know 137 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.199 as we speak, over the last few years. And then 138 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:11.600 there's also caves in like quartzite and sandstone, so these 139 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.079 tend to be formed through more kind of abrasive processes 140 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.720 rather than dissolution processes like in limestone. 141 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.480 So another type of abrasive form caved might be a 142 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:26.399 sea cave, also called a literal cave or a grotto, 143 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.560 and those form around a body of water and they're 144 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:35.159 from waves lapping at the shoreline making these indentations or sandstone. 145 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.480 Caving systems might be mechanically made from tectonic shifts, but 146 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.240 most of the caves are called solution or cursed with 147 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.039 a ka caves where that very lightly acidic rainwater seeps 148 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.200 into a crack in a rock and over time eats 149 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.600 away more and more of the rock to form these hollow, 150 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:58.879 drippy systems, usually out of carbonate rocks like limestone or marble, 151 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:02.639 or rock salt like halite, or from gypsum. And for 152 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.080 more on what rock is who, you can see the 153 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:10.159 Wonderful two part geology episode Wishmitti Jompson A wonder love them, 154 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.159 but yeah, if it's a hole in a rock, you 155 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:13.720 got a cave sort of. 156 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.720 So if you can get underground and kind of get 157 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:18.519 away from daylights, then it's a cave. 158 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:24.600 I'm wondering how big or smart can a cave be Like, 159 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.039 if you have a two foot depression in rock, is 160 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:28.440 that a cave? Or do you have to be able 161 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:30.600 to fit something specific in it, like the size of 162 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:31.159 a car? 163 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.200 Oh, my goodness, what is it? 164 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:44.600 I laugh because cavers could argue about that for honestly, yeah, 165 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.960 generally speaking, a person has to be able to fit 166 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:52.440 in it. There are also then debates about if you 167 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.000 have to be kind of beyond the twilight zone, if 168 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.720 you have to like actually get into the dark or not. 169 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.000 And for instance, I've had a fan fantastic series of 170 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.200 expeditions in Greenland in the last years, and the caves 171 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:08.440 were exploring. There were once really big, long systems, but 172 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.080 now they're all like chopped up and there's just like 173 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:14.559 corners left of these caves and small passages and things. 174 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:17.600 And people have said to me they aren't caves, you know. 175 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:19.799 I get a little bit defensive of them because I'm like, well, 176 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:22.120 they were caves once, but yeah, we don't get out 177 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.080 of daylight anymore, so maybe they're not caves anymore. 178 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:29.279 So the dark makes the cave. It's interesting too to 179 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.320 think of them in that human perspective, like what a 180 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.759 badger or a squirrel might consider a cave, might be 181 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:40.360 a lot smaller, or where might consider a cave. It's 182 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.840 like that subjective. I love the idea of spilunkers and 183 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:48.519 spieleologists absolutely cut throughout arguing and getting into flame wars, 184 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:53.639 heated text messages, blocking people on social media. And do 185 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.080 you travel a lot for your work or do they 186 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:59.960 have a lot of caves in I'm guessing you're based 187 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.039 and from the UK. 188 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:04.759 Yeah, I'm from the UK originally, but since twenty eleven 189 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.559 I've been living in Austria because there's an excellent cave 190 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:08.840 science research. 191 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:09.840 Group here in the Alps. 192 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:14.440 But we were also working in America in New Mexico, 193 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:18.480 also in the Yucatan. There are fantastic expeditions I've been 194 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.720 on in Borneo and India in more recent years. You know, 195 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.159 I kind of stay closer to home, partly because you know, 196 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.919 I'm working as a climate change scientist as well, so 197 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:31.919 on a personal level, I'm reducing my travels quite a bit, 198 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.279 and also with a young family, it's just hard to 199 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:38.039 go away now, so I'm not traveling as much anymore. 200 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:40.600 You can't take your three year old toddler in a 201 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:44.879 backpack into a caving system. I'm guessing, well, people. 202 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:45.679 Do, that's true. 203 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.639 A few years ago, I was on a job photographing 204 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:52.919 a cave with my partner and at three months old, 205 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.519 we took our daughter into a cave. It's so funny. 206 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.440 I have this photograph of pushing my partner's pushing pram 207 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.480 up to the cave entrance and then she slept through. 208 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.559 The whole thing in the cave. 209 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:07.679 I was breastfeeding in a cave at one point as well. 210 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.000 It was it was quite amazing. 211 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:10.679 Yeah. 212 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:11.679 And then when she got. 213 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.840 Older, maybe at like eighteen months or something, we took 214 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:16.759 her into a cave and then she kind of knew 215 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:19.200 what was going on and she absolutely hated it. 216 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:23.360 Really. Yeah, it was terrible. Now she wants to go again. 217 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.080 She's kind of excited by her mommy and daddy going 218 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:27.960 into caves, and she keeps saying, can we go in 219 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:29.600 the cave? When are we going in the cave? So 220 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:31.080 I think we have to try it again now. 221 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:33.919 And is your partner as biliologist as well? 222 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:37.879 He is, Yeah, yeah, and he specializes in photographing cave 223 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.200 so he's doing the arty side of caving and I'm 224 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:41.840 doing the science side of caving. 225 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:43.240 Did you meet him that way? 226 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.480 Yeah? I mean the caving community is fairly small, I 227 00:12:46.519 --> 00:12:50.080 have to say, so we all tend to know each 228 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.720 other or know of each other in a roundabout kind 229 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:53.080 of way. 230 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:54.320 And it's funny. 231 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.240 A lot of people kind of go, oh, fancy that 232 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.840 meeting each other caving. But then but then another person said, well, 233 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:02.759 it would be more weird if they met in the 234 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:06.320 supermarket queue. You know. You imagine standing at the checkout 235 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:09.759 and someone said, Hey, I like caving. Hey, I'm into caving. 236 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:11.879 Like that would be more weird, wouldn't it. 237 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:13.000 That would you? 238 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:16.720 There's not that many of you, considering how many people 239 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.639 there are on Earth. But yeah, how did you get 240 00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:20.159 into it? 241 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:21.000 Oh? 242 00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:22.840 That is a good question. 243 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:25.120 And I could talk for the rest of this time 244 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:29.159 about that. But basically, I was on a family holiday 245 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.399 and we were on this campsite and there was a 246 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:35.399 guy there who was running kind of outdoor activities for 247 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.039 the family staying on the campsite. And my mum wanted 248 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.840 to try caving, and she said, oh, Gina, will you 249 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:42.320 come with me? 250 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:44.080 And I said, oh, yeah, why not? 251 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.679 And so I went along and I was completely hooked 252 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:49.679 on it from the start. And we went in this 253 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.600 little cave called Goat Church caverin which has kind of 254 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.320 been sacrificed to Scout groups and guide groups and beginner cavers. 255 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.039 So there's nothing pretty to see in this cave at all, 256 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.000 and it's small, and it's just about crawling ground in 257 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.799 some passages underground, really, but I absolutely loved it. And 258 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.879 then I went a few more times that week, and 259 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.320 I would save up money from my newspaper around that 260 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:17.440 I had after school, and then in the summer I'd 261 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.919 do as much caving as I could during that one 262 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:21.360 week in the summer holidays. 263 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:25.360 Curiosity was burning a hollow into my boulder brain and 264 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.919 I looked up Goat Church Cavern and it's what's called 265 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.679 a show cave, meaning it's open to the public. It's 266 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:34.919 kind of like an ambassador cave, like humans allow me 267 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:37.279 to introduce you to a cave, but there are still 268 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.639 lights inside and hand rails and usually a guide and 269 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.679 like a gift shop so you can purchase geodes or 270 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.360 keychains naturally. Also, Goat Church Cavern has more than just 271 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.879 some Scout troops inside some deeper inspection. They had to 272 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.440 scrub off some graffiti on its walls and then they 273 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.799 found some etchings dating back maybe five hundred years, and 274 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:01.519 they may have been used in rituals, so they're called 275 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.399 witch marks. Witch Marks in a cave doesn't get mark goth. Also, 276 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:07.879 let's have a real quick glossary. So what is the 277 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.919 difference between a cave and a cavern? I had no idea. 278 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.679 Some people say a room within a cave system is 279 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:18.120 a cavern, while others insist that a cave is only 280 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:23.360 a cavern if it is accessorized with spiliothems aka rock 281 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:28.000 growths such as stalactites and stalagmites. But I've also read 282 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.240 that a cavern is only the entrance of the cave 283 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.679 where you can't see any outside light, whereas a cave 284 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.480 is what it's called once you're in utter darkness, and 285 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.759 especially in relation to cave diving. So just let this 286 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.080 be a lesson. It really kind of depends on who 287 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:45.000 you ask. And apparently a lot of guides joke that 288 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:48.639 the difference between a cave and a cavern is two letters, 289 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:54.120 maybe only Spilunker's care, although I thought maybe a cavern 290 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.159 was one that you walked into and a cave you 291 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.240 squeezed into and just prayed for the best, but you know, 292 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.799 laughed at me and said, most caves there's no strolling in. 293 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.840 I think you're the first person who has I've ever 294 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.320 spoken to. He said, I imagine just walking into a cave, 295 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.480 because normally most people just think about the tight, crawling, 296 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:15.720 nasty bit and then they go, oh, I'm claustrophobic. 297 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.240 I can't do that. So to imagine walking into a. 298 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.720 Cave is quite a unique thought process. 299 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.519 That tell the kind of caves that I've been to 300 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:26.200 or help. 301 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:35.159 Yeah, sure, yeah, it completely varies. So caves within a 302 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.399 particular region will tend to have a particular kind of character, 303 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.039 and that comes down to the geology and the way 304 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.000 the caves are being formed, the climate, saying, you know, 305 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.519 how much rainfall there is in a region or snowfall 306 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:48.840 and all that sort of thing. So it depends where 307 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.879 you are in the world, but you know, ultimately you 308 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.879 can experience absolutely everything you want to in a cave. 309 00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:57.080 You can be. 310 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.559 Crawling in really tight small spaces where you have to 311 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:02.759 take your helmet off and put one arm in front 312 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.039 of you and like push your bag ahead in order 313 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.000 to get through. You can be head first, you can 314 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.480 be feet first, you can be upside down. You can 315 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:14.240 be on either side, or you can walk into a cave. 316 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.960 You can climb over boulders, you can be swimming, you 317 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.720 can go through what's called a sump where you kind 318 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.680 of duck underneath the water, or actually dive as well 319 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.519 if you're into cave diving, which. 320 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:26.839 I am not. 321 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.039 And then there's also a lot of technical stuff going 322 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.640 on as well. So this is what we call single 323 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.759 rope technique, which involves using ropes to get up and 324 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.559 down vertical sections of cave. But yeah, you know, people 325 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.319 go down that and then they have to climb all 326 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:44.000 the way back up. 327 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.359 And how deep of caves do cavers sail or climb 328 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:52.000 down on ropes? I didn't know that word until literally today. 329 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:52.480 Now. 330 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.599 One pit cave, which is Maukang in China, has an 331 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:01.599 unbroken vertical shaft. It's just over five hundred meters deep, 332 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:06.359 which rivals the tallest skyscrapers in the Western Hemisphere, which 333 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.279 you know what, is trifling, quite frankly, when compared to 334 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.519 this wandering depth of this system called the very Amconnect Cave, 335 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.839 which descends into the earth two hundred and twenty three 336 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.559 meters or over seventy two hundred feet, which would be 337 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.119 nearly six empire state buildings stacked on top of each other. 338 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:29.279 And Gina elaborates on that one. 339 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.000 The deepest cave in the world is over two kilometers deep, 340 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.319 and that's in the Caucasus. That involves an awful lot 341 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.920 of rope work as well. That's very vertical, but then 342 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.000 at the bottom of that it becomes a very horizontal system. 343 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:46.200 So after four days of people out sailing and camping 344 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.240 to get down to the bottom, they then set up 345 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.160 camp at the bottom of the cave and then they 346 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.759 can walk from there in the horizontal passages at the bottom. 347 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.519 Four days of going going vertical, and then you just 348 00:18:57.559 --> 00:18:59.960 sleep in a hammock somewhere along the way. 349 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.319 They sleep in makeshift tents, so you know, you can 350 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.880 just make a tent out of a foil blankets, you know, 351 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.480 like you would have at the end of a marathon. 352 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.440 So you can put up some washing line and string 353 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:12.599 and make a kind of tent out of that, because 354 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:15.680 you don't need a full on, four season every style 355 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.160 tent to camp in a cave. You just need to 356 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.319 keep the draft out and it needs to be lightweight 357 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:24.000 because you have to carry everything, take sleeping bags down 358 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.279 and sleeping mats, and yeah, just camp down there and 359 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:30.160 then move on. So it's pretty wild. And of course 360 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:32.440 then you know, you really have to plan and you know, 361 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.920 have enough batteries and lights and all that sort of 362 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:36.920 stuff as well, if you know you'll be down there 363 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:38.200 for really a long time. 364 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.920 I had to know for all of us, where do 365 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.039 you go to the bathroom if you're okay? 366 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:47.960 Oh well, that's also a big topic of conversation which 367 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:53.000 I get in trouble about. Let's say the regulations are 368 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.480 that everything should be brought out of the cave. Whether 369 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:01.039 everybody adheres to that, I can't say. Got it? 370 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:01.240 So? 371 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.160 Got it? Okay, So some leave no tracers, dig a 372 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.839 little hole like eight inches deep, it's called a cat hole. 373 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.200 They do their biz and then they covered up. But 374 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:15.319 due to the delicate microbial environments, cavers are held to 375 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.240 a higher standard and are encouraged to use what are 376 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:22.440 called wag bags, and those contain a solidifying powder developed 377 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.920 by NASA, And yeah, you roll that up and you 378 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.359 keep that at the bottom of your bag. You don't 379 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:28.279 get to leave it in the cave. 380 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:28.720 Now. 381 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:33.160 Other DIY options include what is unfortunately called a burrito, 382 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:37.519 and it involves a homemade kit consisting of wet wipes 383 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.160 and a turkey roasting bag, which, when tied correctly, are 384 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.759 pretty puncture proof. And I read too much about this 385 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.119 and I'm going to stop now before I ruin it 386 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.279 for burritos. Everywhere other people simply say, fuck this, Let's 387 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.720 pretend nothing ever happened. You didn't see me, I didn't 388 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.519 see you. That's not necessarily the way to go. Bumps 389 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.000 the word there. But how long have you spent in 390 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.359 a cave without surfacing? 391 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.240 That was a week that was in Lectugea in New Mexico, 392 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.960 which was incredible. It is one of the most beautiful 393 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.400 caves on the planet and it's such a privilege to 394 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.839 get to go there. Yeah, we spent a week underground 395 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:21.519 and took photographs and did some exploration and mapping and things, 396 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.680 and it was just amazing. It was incredible. And you know, 397 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.440 when you do these things, you spend a lot of 398 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.119 time with a handful of select people who you become 399 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.079 very close within a short space of time. It's a 400 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.400 really cool team bonding experience. Actually, it's really good. 401 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:43.319