1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,960 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Nina Instead, host 16 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:53,079 of the hit podcast Already Gone. Nina, thank you for 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,960 joining us today, Thank you for having me. Happy to 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:56,359 be here. 19 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: I want your voice, but I you have such a 20 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:05,079 gorgeous voice. 21 00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: Thank you. 22 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: People have said this before. I know. 23 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,879 Speaker 5: Yes, I get a lot of feedback on my voice 24 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,959 and people think it's how do I put it? Not appropriate? 25 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,359 For a true crime podcast. 26 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 3: Why, I don't know, little too, Silk Tree. Yeah, you 27 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,680 know what you could do audio books for a living 28 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,359 honest to goodness or voice really good. 29 00:01:33,239 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: Or voiceover or all the above. 30 00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 5: Would love to all right, maybe something? 31 00:01:39,799 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Free time? 32 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 3: Seriously, between all the work that you do, I need 33 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:50,079 to start by telling us about your podcast. Please. 34 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 5: I host Already Gone, which is a true crime podcast 35 00:01:54,079 --> 00:01:57,879 focused on Michigan and the Great Lakes region. The podcast 36 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,640 goes back to twenty sixteen, so if you're in there's 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,560 a nice big back catalog to dive into when I'm 38 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,400 not working on the podcast. I am a certified victim's 39 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,719 advocate and a missing person's advocate with a Missing in 40 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:11,879 Michigan organization. 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: That actually was more perfect of an introduction than I 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,719 could have possibly given. Can you give us a little 43 00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:23,479 bit more information though about Missing in Michigan? What drew 44 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,240 you to it? First of all? And then what do 45 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,400 you what's a typical day like for you at Missing 46 00:02:27,439 --> 00:02:27,960 in Michigan. 47 00:02:28,599 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 5: So I initially joined the Missing in Michigan Facebook group 48 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,479 because I had started the podcast and I was looking 49 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:37,879 for material. I was looking for cases to cover. As 50 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,319 time went on, I started helping Mary Cross, who ran 51 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,159 the group for Sarah Krebbs. Sarah works as for the 52 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:48,000 Michigan State Police. She's an inspector, but she does the 53 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,240 Missing in Michigan group on the side. I was helping Mary. 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,639 She made me an administrator of the site, so I 55 00:02:53,719 --> 00:02:56,080 was co running the site with her. And then Mary 56 00:02:56,199 --> 00:02:58,360 died unexpectedly in twenty nineteen. 57 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so I'm sorry. 58 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:01,759 Speaker 3: Thank you. 59 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 5: And it was really hard because I had just lost 60 00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:06,520 my father a few weeks earlier, like in middle May, 61 00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:08,840 and then at the beginning of June, Mary passed away 62 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:12,120 and we were planning this move to Atlanta at the time. 63 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,719 I just realized that if I didn't step up for 64 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,240 Missing in Michigan for the online portion of the organization, 65 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,400 the group would go away. And the group is a 66 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:25,280 huge resource for families of newly missing and long term missing. 67 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,639 So I wanted to keep it going. So I said, 68 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,840 you know what, I can do this online work remotely 69 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:32,439 from Georgia, and that's what I did. 70 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: I stepped up. 71 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 5: I kept the group going, and we actually grew and 72 00:03:35,639 --> 00:03:38,560 expanded the group. It's over one hundred and thirty thousand 73 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:39,560 people at this point. 74 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: Wow. 75 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: It's amazing to have. That's pretty cool. A large base 76 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:46,199 of people helping and following. 77 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:51,319 Speaker 5: Yes, we really work hard to be a good community 78 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,000 member and a good support. Like I said, families of 79 00:03:54,039 --> 00:03:56,159 the newly missing and the long term missing. 80 00:03:56,919 --> 00:04:00,879 Speaker 2: You're now moving back to Michigan from Atlanta. 81 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,639 Speaker 5: Yes, that is the plan. Hopefully by the end of 82 00:04:03,639 --> 00:04:05,800 this year. I will be back in the Detroit area. 83 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: Oh that's fantastic, Thank you. 84 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:13,439 Speaker 3: I'm excited. So we wanted to bring you on today, Nina, 85 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,439 to talk about an issue that is appearing with increasing 86 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:21,399 frequency in groups like Missing in Michigan, which is the 87 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:27,519 issue of scam or fake missing posters. Can you start 88 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,839 us off by talking about why anyone would even want 89 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:34,240 to create a fake poster or a scam poster? And 90 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:36,079 I think you've probably got a better resp on the 91 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,560 vocabulary than we do. I don't know what you'd like 92 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,240 to call it, but I've just been calling it scam posters. 93 00:04:41,399 --> 00:04:42,839 Why would anybody want to do this? 94 00:04:43,759 --> 00:04:47,399 Speaker 5: So they're definitely scams, and they're super frustrating for the 95 00:04:47,439 --> 00:04:51,240 community because nobody wants to be tricked. And what these 96 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,680 scammers do They create a fake post on social media 97 00:04:54,879 --> 00:04:58,480 and they'll say something like flood your feeds missing child 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,199 or missing scen and it's this cute kid with freckles 99 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:06,160 that looks so wholesome and that they're missing from this 100 00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:09,120 generic community. Like they'll give you a city name, like 101 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,839 maybe Taylor. Contact local police if you hear anything, but 102 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:16,959 there's no phone number, there's nobody to contact. And then 103 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,519 the post gets shared widely, and then within a day 104 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,560 or two, the post changes and it's no longer this 105 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,920 cute missing child or this friendly looking missing senior. 106 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: It's a house. 107 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,759 Speaker 5: That's for sale or rent, or it's a property an 108 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,759 apartment that's available, or it's a cleaning crew that'll come 109 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,879 to your home for a price. So they create the 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,720 fake scammy posts to get it widely shared, and once 111 00:05:44,759 --> 00:05:47,000 it's widely shared, they change it. 112 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: When they make the change to whatever it is they're selling. 113 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,000 How is it that information ends up and all the 114 00:05:55,079 --> 00:05:57,879 other places where it was shared. If you change the 115 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:02,160 original content, does the share content also change? 116 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 5: Yes? And that's how just how posting on Facebook works. 117 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,399 And as a missing person's advocate, I'm grateful for that 118 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:13,160 because when I post someone who's missing, if I find them, 119 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:16,000 I can then go back and edit the post to say, Hey, 120 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,439 good news, we found this person. Right, so all of 121 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,399 the shared posts now reflect the good news that the 122 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:26,399 person was located, but it also can reflect the really 123 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,160 crummy news that they've got a condo for rent. 124 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: I've never heard of this before. I've certainly seen my 125 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,720 share of missing person's notifications, and I have seen found, 126 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,360 which is always happy news hopefully, and then sometimes you 127 00:06:43,399 --> 00:06:46,720 get the very sad news if someone's found deceased. At 128 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,079 the same time, I think it is important to let 129 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,040 people know that someone's been found, even if they are 130 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,759 no longer with us, because people are concerned, and I 131 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:00,000 think to that extent it's important that the Facebook, for example, 132 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:04,360 software works this way. I've never seen anybody more a 133 00:07:04,399 --> 00:07:09,040 missing person's poster into some crappy I've got a condo 134 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:13,360 or I've got a cleaning service scam. But this does happen. 135 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 5: It does, unfortunately, And there were a few photos that 136 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,839 were making the rounds. I actually have them posted in 137 00:07:19,879 --> 00:07:22,439 the Missing in Michigan group. Hey, this is a fake post, 138 00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:26,360 please don't share it, or they'll share a child that 139 00:07:26,439 --> 00:07:28,800 was missing two or three years ago like it's a 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,759 brand new post and it's not. Sharing an old post 141 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,879 of someone that was missing and has been found is 142 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:39,040 actually super invasive. It invades their privacy, It impacts how 143 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,519 they're living their life these days. Especially if it's a child, 144 00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:43,519 they shouldn't have that following them around. 145 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:47,759 Speaker 3: Sure, absolutely So then it sounds like the end goal 146 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,560 for someone who's out there creating these scammy posts is 147 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:55,519 financial gain or is it data mining too, or what 148 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,279 is the end goal behind this? Does it all just 149 00:07:58,319 --> 00:07:59,079 come down to money? 150 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,319 Speaker 5: It all comes down to money, And I think that 151 00:08:02,439 --> 00:08:04,800 a lot of the time, the property that's for rent, 152 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,800 or the cleaning service that's available, or the car detailing 153 00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:09,439 business isn't even real. 154 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,199 Speaker 2: We're both shaking our heads. This whole thing is so maddening. 155 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,360 I wanted to ask Kristen to talk to us a 156 00:08:17,439 --> 00:08:21,959 little bit about the Autumn Cleveland missing person's case, which 157 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,800 is what raised this question and concern for us. 158 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the reason that I reached out to 159 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,240 Nina frantically on Wednesday, was because there is a local 160 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,720 case here and this was a friend of a friend, 161 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,879 so not someone I know directly, but we have several 162 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:42,960 friends in common who had posted on Facebook that her 163 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:47,559 daughter had gone missing while in Maine. She of course 164 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,679 was very distraught, as any parent would be, and wanted 165 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,519 to get the information out there as quickly as possible, 166 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,480 and so she put together first a post, and then 167 00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:00,759 people in the comments were advising her, here, make an 168 00:09:00,799 --> 00:09:04,799 actual poster. Include this number of photos, put in heightweight, 169 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,000 what she was last wearing, what's the making model of 170 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:09,399 her car, all of this stuff. You could see this 171 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:13,000 happening in real time and unfolding, and I was monitoring 172 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,679 the post throughout the day and you could see she 173 00:09:15,799 --> 00:09:18,039 was like, oh, here, I did a poster. Here's the 174 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,360 latest that I have. And then people were advising, here 175 00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:23,919 are some various groups that you could probably post in, 176 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,120 and they were tagging various groups and things like that. 177 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,639 It all looked like this is what you would do 178 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,080 if you were a parent with a missing kid. The 179 00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:34,559 problem came a little bit later in the day when 180 00:09:34,639 --> 00:09:37,720 I had shared the post and people started writing back 181 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:40,639 to me, I think this is fake, Like why would 182 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:43,000 you be sharing this? Do you know this person? This 183 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,879 doesn't look real? And I'm sitting there going why would 184 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:49,080 you think it's fake? Of course it's real. And I 185 00:09:49,159 --> 00:09:51,519 finally had a number of people like actually private message 186 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:53,679 me and go, I think you posted a scam or 187 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:55,720 a fake and I'm like, no, no, I didn't, and 188 00:09:55,759 --> 00:09:58,480 I'm trying to explain here's how I know that it's 189 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:00,759 not fake. And it really just ended up being a 190 00:10:00,799 --> 00:10:04,399 whirlwind for me trying to figure out why do so 191 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,960 many people think that this is a scam? And that 192 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,440 just confounded me. And it did turn out later, unfortunately, 193 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,440 that Autumn was found in Maine. When she was located, 194 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,320 she was already gone, So it did turn out that 195 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:23,120 this was real, which I knew that it was, but 196 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,200 of course lots of people out across the Internet did 197 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:26,960 not know that it was real. But I was really 198 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,240 just baffled by this idea of people making scam posts, 199 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:34,039 and I was very curious about number one, why do 200 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,399 people do this? And also number two, what are the 201 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:40,480 red flags that would alert to someone, hey. 202 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:43,639 Speaker 6: This is a scam post. So I definitely want you 203 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,679 to talk about that next, Nina. So, first of all, 204 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,679 I'm sorry about your friend's friend. That's very sad. That's 205 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,600 never the outcome that we want, no, not ever. Unfortunately, 206 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,240 running the Missing and Michigan group, where we put very 207 00:10:56,279 --> 00:10:57,919 prominently in the rules, you. 208 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,799 Speaker 5: Agree to when you join the group that we vet all. 209 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,480 You have no idea how many calls I make to 210 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,080 law enforcement agencies to go, hey, you got a missing person. 211 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,919 I just want to confirm. And people still come into 212 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,120 our group and oh, it's a scam, it's fake, And 213 00:11:10,159 --> 00:11:16,519 I'm like, no, We've got name, age, description, location, last scene, 214 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,879 and police contact information. 215 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 3: And that's the biggie. 216 00:11:20,279 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 5: If you see a post that has a police department 217 00:11:22,879 --> 00:11:26,519 phone number in it, it's real or I'm ninety five 218 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,399 percent sure it's real. The other thing comes from Kansas, 219 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:34,840 what way was it now, Garden City Police Department in Kansas, 220 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:37,759 and they put out this great little meme that said 221 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,039 missing person's flyers do not originate in yard sale groups. 222 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,480 When your person goes missing, you don't go to the 223 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,240 yard sale group and post it. You post in a 224 00:11:47,279 --> 00:11:50,639 community group, you post in a neighborhood group, but you 225 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,799 don't post any yard sale group unless you're trying to 226 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:54,440 sell something. 227 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very interesting point. You were telling us 228 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:05,679 that these posts morph and turn into something else. I 229 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:09,519 was baffled. We obviously have listeners all over the country 230 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,320 and even all over the world. I noticed our Australian 231 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:14,080 numbers keep growing for some reason. 232 00:12:14,879 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: Excellent. 233 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 2: But you know, because we've covered the Colonial Parkway murders 234 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:23,000 from the day we started. We have a heavy listenership 235 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:27,279 in Virginia, and we appreciate that Autumn, who was the 236 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,960 missing person, was a twenty something from Virginia. But there 237 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,919 was something about the fact that Autumn had traveled to Maimee, 238 00:12:36,159 --> 00:12:40,039 which she had done, that somehow threw people off, and 239 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,080 Kristin and I were was looking at each other going 240 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,919 people do travel, and actually sometimes when people go missing, 241 00:12:47,399 --> 00:12:51,919 they are en route from one place to another. Some 242 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,799 of it may be escaping their troubles or whatever, or 243 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,440 they could just be on vacation. There's a million reasons 244 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,799 for somebody to hit the road. But something about travel 245 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,960 from her home base of Virginia to Maine, where she 246 00:13:04,039 --> 00:13:07,440 was ultimately found that somehow threw people off. 247 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,279 Speaker 5: Which I find strange because the most well known missing 248 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,080 person's case of the last few years is Gabby Patito 249 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:15,879 and what was she doing when she went missing. 250 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 2: She was traveling, traveling with her boyfriend fiance. 251 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,879 Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, So I don't know why people would be 252 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,720 put off by the information, Like it's not hard to 253 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,159 figure out she went missing. This Virginia native went missing 254 00:13:30,399 --> 00:13:34,960 while visiting Maine. Straightforward, No, it doesn't. It doesn't seem 255 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,879 you would need to think all that hard about it. 256 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:41,440 But throughout the day I had people sending me messages 257 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,320 friends of mine or friends of friends who were like, Hey, 258 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:47,399 this post over at this I'm not going to call 259 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,840 out a group name here, okay, but there's a post 260 00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:54,159 over at this prominent Facebook group about a county in 261 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,039 our area. And there's somebody over there stating this looks 262 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,000 like a scampost because she's from here, but they're posting in. 263 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:03,399 Speaker 3: I was like, where do you get that from? I 264 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,399 don't understand what do you mean. Also later that day, 265 00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:09,279 in the same group, there was one of those posting 266 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,519 from a yard sale group. Here's two pictures of a 267 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,240 random missing kid and a message saying kid was found 268 00:14:17,759 --> 00:14:21,360 at this local police office, please share everywhere. And it 269 00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:23,519 was like, that's a scam, Like how are you not 270 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,240 recognizing that's a scam? And the actual missing person's poster 271 00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:31,519 with information, like you said, from a police department and 272 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:34,000 all this other information. How were people not getting the 273 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,240 difference between these two And it looked like there were 274 00:14:36,279 --> 00:14:37,600 some people who weren't. 275 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,919 Speaker 5: The other popular scam post is there'll be two pictures 276 00:14:42,039 --> 00:14:45,720 of a purebred dog, maybe it's an Irish Setter, maybe 277 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,480 it's a husky, and it'll say, oh, we found this dog. 278 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,879 They were sick and dehydrated. Does anyone know the owner? 279 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:57,080 Hashtag city name? And that's another very popular scam post 280 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,679 because the missing person's posts are getting noticed as being fake, 281 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:03,200 so now they've switched to dogs. 282 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:09,039 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, nothing like tugging at the heartstrings exactly. Can't 283 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:11,519 be missing people or missing kids. It's going to be 284 00:15:12,399 --> 00:15:16,279 missing cute dogs or fat or found cute dogs. 285 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:20,759 Speaker 3: Right, So then what are some strategies for reading and 286 00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:24,279 interpreting these posts to determine whether or not they're real 287 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,080 or fake? Because obviously people were taken in by they 288 00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:31,159 sat for a while and thought that maybe autumn stuff 289 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:34,039 was fake. And then I also saw on the very 290 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,200 obvious scam post there were still plenty of people clicking, sharing, liking, commenting, 291 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,399 and it's like, what kind of primer do we have 292 00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:43,360 to help people understand? Here's how you can tell if 293 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:44,679 a post is fake or if it's real. 294 00:15:45,159 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 5: We talked about the yard sale groups, so one of 295 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,759 the things to look at is where does the post originate. 296 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,720 Does it come from a missing person's group like Missing 297 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:57,200 in Michigan or the Aware Foundation, or a police department 298 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,240 or an organization like crimes Stoppers. Those are legitimate sources 299 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:08,000 of information on missing persons. Then look at the information 300 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,960 included in the post. And as someone who works with 301 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:14,960 families of newly missing every day, when people are making 302 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,200 posts about a missing child or a missing parent or 303 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,399 a missing loved one, they're upset. They're not thinking clearly. 304 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,960 So we sometimes get posts that say Janie Jones missing 305 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,039 from Clarkston. Call pull nine one one if you see her, 306 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,679 and it's honey, that Clarkston. What where is Clarkston? 307 00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: There's a lot of Clarkston's. 308 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,279 Speaker 5: If I call nine one one. If this person goes 309 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,039 missing from Dunwoodie, Georgia, and I see them in the 310 00:16:40,039 --> 00:16:43,240 city of Atlanta and call nine one one, Atlanta City 311 00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:45,960 police are going to go what who You need to 312 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,399 call the other police department, So you want to have 313 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:54,240 that proper police number to contact in the post. Always 314 00:16:54,879 --> 00:16:59,639 never ever put a personal contact information. So many of 315 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,440 my famamilies end up with extortion attempts. And I apologize. 316 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,279 I'm getting a little preachy. I just see this all 317 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,960 the time and it makes me so frustrated. But people 318 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,240 don't know. They put their personal phone number in there, 319 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:12,799 and then they get a call saying, I'll tell you 320 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:14,599 where she is if you send me two hundred dollars. 321 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 322 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it happens all the time. 323 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: Just and these are before are legitimately looking for someone 324 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,920 who's missing, be an adult or child. 325 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 5: Yes, they are legitimately looking for a missing loved one, 326 00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:31,279 and they hopefully put their They're very hopeful, and they 327 00:17:31,279 --> 00:17:33,200 put their phone number in the post that someone's going 328 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,839 to call and go, oh, I've got them right here. 329 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:35,839 Speaker 3: They're at the dairy. 330 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,759 Speaker 5: Queen and it ends up being a scammer that's calling them. 331 00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:44,519 Speaker 2: And what we've found, and we consider ourselves part of 332 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:48,400 a larger true crime community. I feel like people in 333 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,240 the true crime community want to help. Yeah, and they 334 00:17:53,519 --> 00:17:57,880 absolutely any of us can be taken in by fake 335 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,839 news if you will. Someone saying that there's a missing 336 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,119 person is something that tugs at the heartstrings and you 337 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,359 want to help without some sort of, as you said, 338 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,519 some vetting so that we know that this is real. 339 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:16,720 Do you find that with the families that really are 340 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:20,960 missing someone, are they open to the coaching that you 341 00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:25,400 and other advocates can provide to walk them through here's 342 00:18:25,519 --> 00:18:28,160 how you do get the word out about your missing 343 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:28,839 loved one. 344 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 3: By and large, yes they are. 345 00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 5: I do run into families where the missing person might 346 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,720 be unhoused, or maybe struggling with addiction issues, or may 347 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:44,000 have a criminal record, then they're less likely to want 348 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:46,920 to include law enforcement because they're worried their person is 349 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,799 going to end up behind bars. They're worried that they're 350 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:52,759 going to be hurt again by law enforcement not taking 351 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:56,680 it seriously. They're worried that law enforcement is not going 352 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,400 to respect them when they reach out and looking for support. 353 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:02,759 My belief and the belief of most of the law 354 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:06,079 enforcement agencies that I deal with, is that everybody deserves 355 00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:10,000 to be safe. Everybody deserves to be located. We'll worry 356 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,480 about the bench warrant later. Let's make sure that there's 357 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:13,359 someplace safe. 358 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 3: If a family has a missing loved one, what information 359 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,400 You've covered some of this, but I just want to 360 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,680 make sure we've got all of it. What information should 361 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,160 they make sure is on that poster so that people 362 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,039 so that people will look at it and go, oh, okay, 363 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,519 this is really this is legit. You had mentioned a 364 00:19:31,559 --> 00:19:35,599 contact information number for a local police department. What else 365 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:36,839 should they be putting on there. 366 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 5: The first thing they should do when someone goes missing 367 00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:42,759 is call law enforcement. You do not have to wait 368 00:19:42,799 --> 00:19:45,680 twenty four or forty eight hours. That is a myth. 369 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was very prevalent that urban myth. 370 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,839 Speaker 3: Yes, and people still believe it that you don't, especially 371 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,680 if it's a missing child or a senior that has 372 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,599 maybe some medical issues, you can report right away. So 373 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,680 you want to have that law enforcement contact information in 374 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,160 the post. That's super important. It adds an air of 375 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,200 legitimacy to a post. Immediately. You want the person's name. 376 00:20:09,839 --> 00:20:12,079 You want what they were wearing, if you know what 377 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,880 they were wearing, You want what they were driving, if 378 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,839 you know if they left in a vehicle, what vehicle 379 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,880 can I look for? Those are all important things to 380 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,519 include in a missing person's post. A lot like an 381 00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:28,559 organization like the Aware Foundation, Yes or Missing in Michigan, 382 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,039 We will make a flyer for you. 383 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 2: You've got the format ready to go. 384 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,799 Speaker 5: Yep, or maybe you know someone who can use CANVA 385 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,200 and whip up a quick flyer for you. The flyers 386 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,799 tend to be shared and respected more than just the 387 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:44,799 photo with a little description on it. We make do 388 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,000 when all we have is the photo and the little description. 389 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:49,319 We get that shared, we get that circulating, we get 390 00:20:49,319 --> 00:20:52,319 that out in the public eye. The flyers tend to 391 00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:55,640 go a little further, something a little more. I guess 392 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,759 what we'd think of is traditionally legitimate is way Yes 393 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,480 helps make people go, okay, this is real, not a fake. 394 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 3: Yes. 395 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 5: If the post looks polished, people tend to believe it. 396 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: Professional presentation on some level doesn't have to be super slick, 397 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,279 but that some good clear photographs and good descriptions. The 398 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,920 vehicle thing is incredibly important. Obviously, a young kid's not 399 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,079 going to be driving a car, but lots of other 400 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,160 people leave in a known vehicle. 401 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 5: Yes, or unfortunately, we have a lot of teenagers that 402 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,200 slip out of the house and are spotted getting into 403 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,119 a car on our ring doorbell, so then we know 404 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,440 that they got into a silver Honda. Or we may 405 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,119 not have a great description, but maybe one of the 406 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,680 kid's friends knows someone who drives that silver Honda, which 407 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,000 helps the parents get closer to locating their child. 408 00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,559 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back 409 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:57,480 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 410 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:01,240 mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 411 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:03,720 wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme 412 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,559 effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to 413 00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:11,039 help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder 414 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,319 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 415 00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:19,079 We'd love it if you could support us in any 416 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,079 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 417 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,119 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 418 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,079 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 419 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,839 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 420 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,440 your support. Now back to mind over Murder. 421 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: The other thing that comes up, and I'm getting slightly 422 00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:44,359 off topic here, so bear with me. Is there a runaway? 423 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is awfully dismissive. It is of a kid 424 00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:54,200 or a young person with maybe legitimate concern. 425 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,759 Speaker 3: Yes, And you know what, runaways end up in unsafe situations, 426 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,400 and then it's an endangered missing advisory and we're really worried, 427 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:07,480 so don't I'm asking listeners to not be dismissive or judgmental. 428 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,400 If a child is a runaway, they don't know better. 429 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,079 They deserve to be safe. 430 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,519 Speaker 2: And we know a number of situations in cases that 431 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:19,480 we've worked on and others where sometimes people were characterized 432 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:22,559 as runaways, and maybe they did run away. There can 433 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:26,680 be a million reasons for why they would be fleeing 434 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:30,000 their home or the place that they live, which could 435 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,279 extend up to them not feeling safe there. Whether that 436 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,839 makes sense or not, that needs to be sorted out later. 437 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,839 But let's at least find out where they are and 438 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,000 make sure they're safe. 439 00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,279 Speaker 5: And I very infrequently come across cases where the child 440 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,440 is unsafe at home and that's why they left. They 441 00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:50,480 usually leave because mom said, no, you can't hang out 442 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,720 with that twenty year old, No you can't hang out 443 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,759 with that much older person, and parents set a boundary 444 00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,039 and the kids I know better, I'm going to hang 445 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:00,200 out anyway. 446 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 2: And I'm fourteen and this person is twenty five. 447 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,039 Speaker 5: Yes, and we want those kids to be safe. 448 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,519 Speaker 3: If a family has a missing loved one, what are 449 00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:13,720 the best groups to post to in order to get 450 00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:17,400 awareness out. You've mentioned the Aware Foundation already, what else 451 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:19,880 like on a sort of national level. 452 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 5: You would ask law enforcement to involve nick MEC National 453 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,000 Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and they put out posts. 454 00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:29,759 My only very minor criticism of nick Mack is they're 455 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:32,160 not always as quick to take them down. But again, 456 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,160 they're a wonderful resource for families with a missing child. 457 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,200 Strongly advise nick mac. Also, when you do file a 458 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,920 police report, ask to sign a media release so that 459 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,559 the law enforcement agency can immediately release information to the 460 00:24:46,599 --> 00:24:50,519 six o'clock news, the local newspaper. They'll get it out 461 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,240 on social media. Also, it's another layer of awareness. 462 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 3: You'd already mentioned what I think is a great piece 463 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,759 of advice, which is do not post to yard sale groups. 464 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,680 What are other types of groups that people with legitimate 465 00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:08,799 missing family members should maybe steer clearer from. There are 466 00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:11,720 some people I could see deciding Okay, maybe I will 467 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240 post to every single Facebook group out there in the 468 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:18,880 state where my loved one was going because coverage is good, 469 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,640 without maybe thinking, Okay, maybe I shouldn't be posting to 470 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,839 the yard cell group because it will be perceived as 471 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:25,319 a scam or something like that. 472 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 5: I think it's more important to look for the legitimate 473 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,640 groups like being from Metro Detroit. There's Metro Detroit Crime 474 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,519 and Homicide. There's Crime and the d there's the Macombe 475 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:38,599 County Scanner, there's Flint Police Operations. There's a really good 476 00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:42,319 Monroe County news group. Those are the groups to look for. 477 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,480 I don't advise sharing to the larger generic true crime groups. 478 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: M M. 479 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,039 Speaker 5: I know one of the true crime groups I'm in. 480 00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:53,880 They're regularly posting missing persons from Australia, which is fine, 481 00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:56,599 but I'm not the eyes you need to get it 482 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,319 in front of. You need to be in an Australia 483 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,359 centric a province, they're not called provinces in Australia. Doesn't matter. 484 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,799 In Australia centric group is where it needs to be posted, 485 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,480 not in a generic crime group. 486 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: And unless we know, for instance, if that person from 487 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,599 Australia has left the country, then let's try to stay 488 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:18,519 focused on where it can do the most good. Got it? 489 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 3: Just curious? And you don't have to You don't have 490 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,240 to admit this, youn't want too, but I am curious. 491 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:27,119 Has there ever been, like, is there ever a time 492 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,359 when you were taken in by something that someone had 493 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,200 posted when it really looked to you like it, Okay, 494 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,759 this really could legitimately be a missing person, and then 495 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,480 it switched to condo car service, purebread dog or whatever. 496 00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:40,920 Have you ever been taken in by one? 497 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 5: I have not, because our group is run by law enforcement, 498 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:48,000 so I have to have law enforcement contact. 499 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:48,559 Speaker 3: In the post. 500 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,279 Speaker 5: I can't post something in our group, and I can't 501 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,160 approve a post in our group unless there is police 502 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,519 contact information. So as soon as I see something like that, 503 00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:00,200 I go and look at the originator of the post, 504 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:01,920 And every single time, I'm. 505 00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: Like, oh, this person's had a Facebook for six days. 506 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: A bad sign. 507 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,039 Speaker 3: Bad sign. 508 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, you click on the originator and it says product 509 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,119 or advertisement or cleaning service. 510 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: No, this is not legitimate. 511 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,599 Speaker 5: So fortunately I and it's only because I have so 512 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,559 much experience. I'm not denigrating anyone who's been tricked. Do 513 00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:26,400 you see a missing kid, you see a missing senior? 514 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:29,079 Of course your first reaction is what can I do 515 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,599 to help. 516 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,039 Speaker 2: One of the things we were talking about off air 517 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,559 a few minutes ago, Nina, that I wanted to revisit 518 00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:37,960 was I was saying how I felt like law enforcement 519 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,119 wasn't very good in situations where someone is found, whether 520 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,599 they're dead or alive, they're not very good about explaining 521 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,240 later cause of death or what the outcome was. And 522 00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:53,599 you were reminding me that we may all be curious people, 523 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,160 but we don't have a right to that information. Can 524 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,319 you elaborate a little bit sure? 525 00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:00,799 Speaker 5: In the missing in Michigan grew we use the term 526 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,720 found as an angel, and that covers someone being found 527 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,000 de ceased, whether they were inflicted self harm, or if 528 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,599 someone brought harm to them, or if they were perhaps 529 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,720 using illegal substances that led to their death. They were 530 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,359 found as an angel because we support the families and 531 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,079 we try not to focus on the really negative. It's 532 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,160 a terrible outcome. It's never the outcome we want, it's 533 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,880 never the outcome we expect. But we use the term 534 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,000 found as an angel just to be gentle with the 535 00:28:30,039 --> 00:28:33,519 families and friends that are in the group. Now, I 536 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,039 often know how a person was found in the circumstances 537 00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:40,599 surrounding them being recovered, but it's not for public consumption. 538 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,599 That that's private. And well, I'm as curious as the 539 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,359 next person. I have learned that I just don't I 540 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,079 don't deserve to know. We had that we talked off 541 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:54,079 air about the baseball player whose daughter went missing, and 542 00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:55,039 people were like, Oh. 543 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 3: I can't wait to get the scoop on this. Sorry, 544 00:28:57,799 --> 00:29:01,079 it's not your business. It's more than likely a medical issue, 545 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,799 and that's personal in private. And while we do get invested, 546 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,799 I one hundred percent get invested in these cases that 547 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:09,640 I work on, and I would love to know the 548 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,480 details of how somebody was recovered when they're found alive. 549 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 5: It's not my business. My business is to help them 550 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,359 make it home, whatever that looks like. 551 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 3: I think as people who consume a lot of Internet content, 552 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,039 people start getting this idea that they are entitled to 553 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,279 information because they are invested in it. And I think 554 00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,799 it's a great reminder that you just gave us, Nina, 555 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680 that yes, maybe you're interested and it's out of the 556 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,119 goodness of your heart, but you're not entitled to know 557 00:29:39,359 --> 00:29:43,279 these things. And there's nothing wrong with being curious. I understand. 558 00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 5: I think it's natural to want to know the resolution 559 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,160 to the story, but we also have to respect the 560 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,359 boundaries of the family the missing person and just understand 561 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:54,279 that we're not going to know. 562 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:55,519 Speaker 3: I want to. 563 00:29:55,519 --> 00:29:59,359 Speaker 5: Change gears slightly on this. I just read an article. 564 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,640 There's a movement in Canada that when a person goes missing, 565 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,000 they're not going to use their last name. They're going 566 00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:07,799 to use a photo and their first name so that 567 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,559 when they are recovered, it does not follow them. 568 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I'm not pushing back, but does the lack 569 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,039 of a last name does that handicap someone that might 570 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,960 be encountering this person. We're just going to call them 571 00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:26,759 Jane for example, and not Jane Smith or whatever. 572 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, my friend Kelly, she's a missing person's advocate. Her 573 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,799 cousin Richie went missing in nineteen ninety. Kelly worked as 574 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,720 a bus driver in the Kalamazoo area and stopped at 575 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,359 a light and looked and spotted a missing girl and 576 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,880 she got out of it. She stopped the bus and 577 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,039 got out and went, your mother is looking for you, 578 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:50,000 and literally picked up called the police and put one 579 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,039 hand on her and called the police and found her. 580 00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:56,200 Kelly couldn't remember her name, but she just seen her face. 581 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:00,160 So I feel like you either know the person or 582 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,119 will spot the person, and you don't necessarily need to 583 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,279 know that. Jane Lewandowski of Ottawa, Ontario, went missing in 584 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,920 September of twenty twenty four. Because those news stories are 585 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,920 going to follow Jane Lewandowski for the rest of her life. 586 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it, and I know we've touched on 587 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,079 this a little bit. Sometimes in these situations, these are 588 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:27,319 people that will need ongoing assistance help, whether it's dealing 589 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,039 with the mental health issue, whatever it is, and that's 590 00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:34,759 going to be challenging enough without this Internet browser history 591 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,039 of following them for the rest of their lives. 592 00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:38,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. 593 00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 5: Or maybe she was fleeing an abusive relationship and went 594 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:44,119 into hiding and couldn't tell anyone where she went. I've 595 00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:47,119 actually had that happen, so it's an interesting discussion. Do 596 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,079 I think we need to implement it across the board? 597 00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 3: I don't know. 598 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,519 Speaker 5: If it's a missing young kid, maybe we do need 599 00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:54,640 to know their last name. Maybe they were kidnapped by 600 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,559 a parent or a relative and it would be helpful 601 00:31:56,599 --> 00:31:58,839 to know the last name. But if it's a missing 602 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,799 adult and you've got a nice clear picture of their face, 603 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,960 maybe you don't. And I'm not sold either way. I 604 00:32:05,039 --> 00:32:08,440 just thought it was an interesting idea and something to consider. 605 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: I have this romantic viewpoint of Canada. I've traveled to 606 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,119 Canada a few times, but I'm not an expert by 607 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,440 any means, I somehow have a romanticized vision of Canada 608 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,440 as being like like the United States, but with nicer people. Yeah, 609 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:31,079 and Putine. And I think to myself and Tim Horton's 610 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,480 that maybe that practice of just the first name would 611 00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:37,400 work in a wonderful place like Canada. Forgive me if 612 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,400 I sound cynical when I'm speaking about the United States 613 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,440 of America, where I happen to live. 614 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:47,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and people would feel entitled to that last name. 615 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. I feel like when we talk about 616 00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:54,440 all of the upsides of the Internet and helping to 617 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,720 get information out about missing people, we are also just 618 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:03,359 faced with a massive amount of problems that get compounded, 619 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,079 such as that sense of entitlement. Everybody wants that story. 620 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,680 It's the same impulse that will lead people to send 621 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,279 Bill an email and say, I'd like to see your 622 00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:16,319 sister's crime scene photos. You're not entitled to that, No, 623 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,160 it's so disrespectful. 624 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: Or I'd like an object that your sister Kathy owned 625 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,279 that we want to put in our museum of serial killers. 626 00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:30,680 And I'm like, I'm not easily offended. I'm thinking to myself, what, 627 00:33:31,279 --> 00:33:35,039 why do you think I would be interested in your 628 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,440 That's Museum of serial Killers. 629 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: People feel a sense of entitlement to the stories that 630 00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:43,720 they're invested in and the people that they're invested in, 631 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,200 and in one sense, I think that's what keeps all 632 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,960 three of us in business. Here are you with the 633 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,079 podcast and everything. So I guess I can't really get 634 00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:57,119 down on it too much. But we were talking of 635 00:33:57,839 --> 00:33:59,960 Aaron Nina, and I think you really said the best cure. 636 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,839 Curiosity is one thing, because we're all curious. That is 637 00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,440 why we are interested in this sort of thing. The 638 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:08,960 sense that you, as a member of the public, are 639 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,960 entitled to know all aspects of something you're not. 640 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 5: No, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. It's curiosity is natural. 641 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,519 You get infested in a story, you want to know 642 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,039 the outcome. But we're not always entitled to the outcome. 643 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:26,519 And oftentimes the kinder thing to do if you really 644 00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:28,239 want to help is leave them. 645 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,679 Speaker 2: Be right, pitch in, help them be found. But yes, 646 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,880 after that, when they're back in a place that's safe, 647 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:37,320 we all need to step back and give them some 648 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,760 space and some time. And yes, we can't really contribute 649 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,679 to their well being. I think beyond that point, it's 650 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,960 going to be up to the families or social services 651 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:50,159 or whoever's involved. 652 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, and no, Shade, I want to know too. I'm nosy, 653 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,599 but it's the right thing to do is to just 654 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:56,039 let it be. 655 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 3: We were talking to one of the family members in 656 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,840 the Colonial Parkway murders case yesterday who learned the truth 657 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,320 about who murdered her sister this past January, and I was, 658 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,559 quite frankly, I was surprised when she said the media 659 00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:14,760 had largely left them alone after that news was revealed, 660 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,960 because I honestly thought that they weren't going to I 661 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,519 would have assumed right she would have been hounded by 662 00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:25,000 the media because everybody here locally knows the story, wants 663 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:28,719 the story, and feels entitled to more information about the story. 664 00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:32,559 And so when Jeanette said yesterday the media had left 665 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:35,599 them alone, I had a moment of shock, but good shock, 666 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,239 when it was like, oh, wow, they did. Because when 667 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,079 you get invested in any case, there is an audience 668 00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:43,840 out there that wants to be fed and they want 669 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,480 that information. They feel they're entitled to learn more about it. Yeah, 670 00:35:47,559 --> 00:35:47,880 they do. 671 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 2: That was an interesting dynamic because in Robin's case, her 672 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,400 sister's case, there's a still strong possibility that may tie 673 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,199 into the other Colonial Parkway murders, and so we are 674 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,239 are still probing and looking for more information and quite 675 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,599 frankly pushing law enforcement to keep putting resources into this 676 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,440 case and things we ask them to do. When they 677 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:14,159 finally did them, he said, through gritted teeth, wouldn't you 678 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,320 know it led directly to the identification of an offender 679 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,960 who is deceased himself. It had a good outcome, And 680 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,599 the truth is, even Jeannette said this when we spoke 681 00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:29,000 to her, she's fine with us continuing to talk about 682 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:31,480 it because she continues to hope that good things will 683 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,239 come out of these first steps in terms of identifying 684 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,760 what happened to her sister and her friend. But that's 685 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,800 not a typical situation where you have an individual who 686 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:48,159 has gone missing and then is found. Typically, I think 687 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,119 for us as members of the public, that ends our involvement. Yes, 688 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,880 with that individual. Hopefully they're able to get the care 689 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:56,440 they need. 690 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,159 Speaker 5: Yes, But in your case, it's still an open investigation 691 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,760 and we're still looking for answers, so we still need 692 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,519 to keep probing. 693 00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 3: Any final pieces of advice for families who are dealing 694 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,519 with missing loved ones and who are trying to navigate 695 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,440 the at times treacherous world of both the internet media 696 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,920 other forms of publicity. What would be like your best 697 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,400 three pieces of advice? 698 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,199 Speaker 5: If a loved one goes missing, please contact law enforcement. 699 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,920 You don't have to wait twenty four to forty eight hours. 700 00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:32,719 If your local agency says no, move up to the 701 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,000 sheriff's department or the state police. You don't have to 702 00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:39,679 take that no for an answer. Be careful on social 703 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,039 media the information that you put out there. Please don't 704 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:44,880 share your phone number. It puts you at risk. It 705 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,960 makes a stressful situation even worse. 706 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,519 Speaker 2: Or your personal email address as well. I've tracked I 707 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:52,920 see that a lot. And remember any of us can 708 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:59,000 set up, if we're just getting started, another alternate email address. Yes, 709 00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:01,679 if you have to. You don't have to put up 710 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,760 the one that you use on everything. 711 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,519 Speaker 5: You can create a free Gmail account to support your 712 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:10,159 missing loved one or your unsolved case and keep your 713 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,920 private email private, which is also good for your mental health. 714 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,400 It gives you a break so that you're not inundated 715 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,079 when you go in to check your email and pay bills. 716 00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:21,920 There's not that creepy email sitting there from someone who 717 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,199 may or may not be helpful, and that. 718 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 2: Just causes me such pain too. When you hear about 719 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,000 people who are desperately trying to find their missing loved ones, 720 00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,679 and then they're hearing from sleeve balls that are looking 721 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,599 to capitalize on them or LOOKI loose other advice that 722 00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:41,920 you would have for those individuals. 723 00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 3: Yes, take care of yourself. 724 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,079 Speaker 2: You can. 725 00:38:44,199 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 5: It's a cliche that you can't pour from an empty cup, 726 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,880 but I see people when they're a loved one goes 727 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,840 missing that first twenty four hours. They're not eating, they're 728 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,519 not sleeping, they're not hydrated. They're going to make themselves sick. 729 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,159 So I generally check in with families and be like, hey, 730 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:02,360 how are you this morning? Did you eat anything? Do 731 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,400 you need some tail and all? Have you had a 732 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,840 glass of water? It's because they forget. They're so stressed 733 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,679 that I can't get anything down, and I'm like, have 734 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,519 a glass of water. You have to stay hydrated. If 735 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:16,800 you make yourself sick, you can't look for your loved one. 736 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,360 So practicing self care short term and long term cases, 737 00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:24,360 it's incredibly important because it's exhausting work. 738 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 3: Excellent advice, Nina. Thank you so much for joining us. 739 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,920 We really appreciate you taking the time. Oh, thank you 740 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:32,920 for having me that is going to do it for 741 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,280 this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much 742 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,119 for listening. We'll see you next time. 743 00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:50,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 744 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:51,679 Another Dog Productions. 745 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,559 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 746 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,320 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 747 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,039 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 748 00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 749 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,559 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 750 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:12,199 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 751 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,079 Murders on Facebook. 752 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 753 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,559 Bill Thomas five six. 754 00:40:19,039 --> 00:40:22,119 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.