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<v Speaker 1>Imagine the place where you can escape for a day,

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<v Speaker 1>get immersed in a world of rooms, inspiration, and expertise,

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<v Speaker 1>where you can lay in luxury accommodation, had kids cam

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<v Speaker 1>fees from ninety five sets. Tickets are free to everyone

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<v Speaker 1>and include all the attractions you've just imagined. A day

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<v Speaker 1>out at the Kia, the Kia, the Wonderful every Day.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh hey, it's your uncle's army buddy who makes superb

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<v Speaker 2>banana bread. Ali Ward back with another episode of Ologies.

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<v Speaker 2>First off, I know you you're either like a fuck

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<v Speaker 2>with a hagfish or you're like, ah, yes, hagfish, but

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<v Speaker 2>an hour of hagfish. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Here's a

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<v Speaker 2>secret you need to know. We are all hagfish. We're

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<v Speaker 2>shy sometimes, but we have friends, we have preferences, we

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<v Speaker 2>can make do we have hidden talents. Sometimes people underestimate

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<v Speaker 2>us until they realize our superpowers and then they stand

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<v Speaker 2>back and they marvel. And by marvel, I mean listen

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<v Speaker 2>to a whole episode about hagfish. But before we dive

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<v Speaker 2>into the deep sea of this slimy hour, let's first

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<v Speaker 2>buy tradition. Thank all the folks on patreon dot com

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<v Speaker 2>slash Ologies who make these episodes possible. We'll hear some

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<v Speaker 2>of their hagfish queries later. And to all the folks

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<v Speaker 2>buying ologies merch at the link in the show notes

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<v Speaker 2>and sporting it, and of course to all of you

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<v Speaker 2>kind souls who have rated and subscribed to the pod

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<v Speaker 2>and also left your reviews for Old Dad Word, which

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<v Speaker 2>I read by lantern light with a tear in my eye,

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<v Speaker 2>such as this week. Jen Bagels just wrote, Ali, I

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<v Speaker 2>hope you really do read every review because I want

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<v Speaker 2>you to know that the world is a better place

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<v Speaker 2>because you're in it. I don't deserve that. That's too nice.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't make me cry. Kseup HD, which I guess I'm

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<v Speaker 2>realizing just now is ksu PhD So sorry says here.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a tip. Don't cherry pick the episodes you think

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<v Speaker 2>you'll be interested in just Bingjamal. They're all delightful, thanks,

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<v Speaker 2>case Uphd. Okay, hagfish hagfish Okay. First off, you're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>have to wait to hear how hagfish got its name. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a common Patreon question. We're gonna address it later.

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<v Speaker 2>This is as clickbaity as I get. Secondly, yes, the

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<v Speaker 2>term hagfishology has been used before. I did not make

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<v Speaker 2>it up. A twenty thirteen biology graduate student seminar schedule

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<v Speaker 2>included the talk quote Adventures in Hagfishology, Sulfate Transport and

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<v Speaker 2>extra Brinkial Mechanisms of ion regulation in Pacific Hagfish by

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<v Speaker 2>Alex Clifford, so Hagfishology, the titles legit Haters. So this

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<v Speaker 2>episode exists because science journalist Ed Yong wrote an article

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<v Speaker 2>for The Atlantic in January with the headline no one

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<v Speaker 2>is prepared for hagfish slime, and he was so right.

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<v Speaker 2>It included photos from a twenty seventeen traffic accident in

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<v Speaker 2>Oregon in which seventy five hundred pounds of hagfish tipped

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<v Speaker 2>over on a windy, foresty highway and slicked the roads

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<v Speaker 2>and the cars in incomprehensible amounts of slime. I immediately

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<v Speaker 2>started googling hagfish scientists. I had a few on the list,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was thrilled to see that they were based

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<v Speaker 2>in southern California. They were on my spreadsheet. A few

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<v Speaker 2>weeks ago. My friend wildlife educator Mallory Lindsey, who was amazing,

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<v Speaker 2>went to the same lab and I messaged her and

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, I've been wanting to do an episode

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<v Speaker 2>on this. How are they? The next day my phone rang.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a hagfish ologist, just using the phone like

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<v Speaker 2>it was nineteen ninety seven. It's so charming. So we

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<v Speaker 2>met a few days later on a street corner near

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<v Speaker 2>Chapman Campus in Orange County, and he has a bright smile,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of surfer esque golden hair and a ruddy beard.

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<v Speaker 2>And we drove around looking for parking, because again this

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<v Speaker 2>is southern California. And then we hit the lab and

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<v Speaker 2>he showed me gurgling chili saltwater tanks filled with a

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<v Speaker 2>few dozen soft, pinkish, purplish gray floppy hot dogs with mouths,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he let me create a one in my

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<v Speaker 2>open palm, and it felt like a very floppy hot dog,

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<v Speaker 2>like if God put a face on an intestine and

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<v Speaker 2>just stopped. There were these specimens, slimy, not really, until

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<v Speaker 2>this ologist urged me to annoy one, give it a

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<v Speaker 2>little pinch, he coaxed. Milliseconds later, it seemed my hand

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<v Speaker 2>was drenched in a thick veil of elephant snot I

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<v Speaker 2>was transfixed. So hagfish are disgusting and they deserve our respect.

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<v Speaker 2>So this ologist, as you will hear from the dulcet

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<v Speaker 2>tones of his Canadian accent, hails from the North and

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<v Speaker 2>he got his bachelor's and masters studying zoology at the

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<v Speaker 2>University of Guelph. Whilst there he happened to take an

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<v Speaker 2>invertebrate zoology class with hagfish master doctor Douglas Fudge, with

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<v Speaker 2>whom he now works as a research associate at Chapman.

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<v Speaker 2>So prepare to hear about swift escapes, outlasting extinction events,

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<v Speaker 2>the mysteries of the deep. Why you, I guess, don't

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<v Speaker 2>always need a spine eating your way out of a

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<v Speaker 2>dead thing, disappearing without a trace, and like a slippery

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<v Speaker 2>messiah converting water into slime with human delight. And professional

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<v Speaker 2>hagfishologist Tim Weingart. And now I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 2>know this, but you are technically a hagfish ologist. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>If I've ever heard it put that way, but I've

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<v Speaker 3>probably won a few.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I looked it up to see if there was

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<v Speaker 2>a like a more Latin sounding name. Yeah. And the

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<v Speaker 2>term that's been used the most to describe what you

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<v Speaker 2>study is literally hagfish ologists. Like there are people have

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<v Speaker 2>used that word before, So yeah, it's a thing hagfishlge

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<v Speaker 2>or run with it? What is a hagfish for someone

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<v Speaker 2>who's never seen or touched one?

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<v Speaker 3>So I guess the best way to describe them is

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<v Speaker 3>they're a benthic deep sea dweller. Right, So essentially all

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<v Speaker 3>hagfish share that in common. They all live along the

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<v Speaker 3>bottom substrate of the oceans, and the majority of them

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<v Speaker 3>below one hundred meters in depth or about three hundred

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<v Speaker 3>feet right.

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<v Speaker 2>So side note this allog just jumps between metric and

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<v Speaker 2>us y are we still not metric measurements, so I

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<v Speaker 2>don't have to convert it, thank freaking God.

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<v Speaker 3>So what they are is a jawless, primitive eel like creature. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm hesitant to call them a fish, even though it's

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<v Speaker 3>in their name, because they aren't necessarily a traditional fish, right.

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<v Speaker 3>They they lack scales, they lack jaws, they lack eyes,

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<v Speaker 3>they lack what we would traditionally referred to as fins.

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<v Speaker 3>So they're in many ways a very primitive version of

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<v Speaker 3>a modern day fish.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>They're thought to have diverged at around the same time

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<v Speaker 3>that vertebrates popped up on the evolutionary spectrum.

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<v Speaker 2>So these augers are old old.

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<v Speaker 1>My god, you're so old.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? How many millions of years do you think?

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<v Speaker 3>So there's fossil evidence up to three hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 3>million years, but they're likely over five hundred million years old. Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>So among some of the first like really highly organized, cephalized,

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<v Speaker 3>which means essentially like head focused creatures. So hagfish for

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<v Speaker 3>a long time were defined as crane its, which means

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<v Speaker 3>that they have a cranium surrounding their but they have

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<v Speaker 3>no calcification of anything in their body, so it's all cartilage. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>So they do have a notochord. They have many of

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<v Speaker 3>these features that are very vertebrate in a way, but

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<v Speaker 3>lacking calcification, lacking gills, lacking jaws, all these other features

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<v Speaker 3>place them in a much more and not even hesitate

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<v Speaker 3>to say primitive, but I guess they are primitive features.

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<v Speaker 3>Even though hagfish themselves are obviously as ancient as they are,

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<v Speaker 3>they're also very modern, right, like the hagfish we see today,

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<v Speaker 3>we really don't know how much they relate to the

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<v Speaker 3>hagfish of the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. PS. If you're like notochord, I got you. So

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<v Speaker 2>a notochord is by definition, a cartilaginous skeletal rod supporting

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<v Speaker 2>the body. You had one, You had one as a

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<v Speaker 2>tinted tiny embryo. So it's like a backbone in that

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<v Speaker 2>it gives support and structure, but it's not a backbone

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<v Speaker 2>in that it's not bony segmented vertebrae. Oh, and the

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<v Speaker 2>hagfish has a brain case. It isn't a skull. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like a cartilage rib cage around their brain lump. And

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<v Speaker 2>in the hagfish world there has been decades of heated

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<v Speaker 2>dramatic That's how I like to imagine it. Debate on

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<v Speaker 2>whether hagfish never developed a backbone or if they had

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<v Speaker 2>one and then just devolved the other way, gradually get

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<v Speaker 2>rid of the sucker. Oh and their eyes in the skull,

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<v Speaker 2>so kind of like a handsome, lanky drifter who's also

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<v Speaker 2>slimy and eats corpses. Their backstory is still a mystery.

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<v Speaker 3>Through fossil evidence, of which there's only two. It makes

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<v Speaker 3>it a bit of a limited jump in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>what you can say.

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<v Speaker 2>There's two fossils of hagfish.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, soft bodied creatures don't fossilize well, right, So when

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<v Speaker 3>they do die and end up in the bottom sediment.

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<v Speaker 3>Their tissues are so similar to everything else around them

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<v Speaker 3>that they don't end up distinct like other animals with

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<v Speaker 3>calcium or real bones in their body do.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's got those two fossils? Where are they? That's a

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<v Speaker 2>good question.

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<v Speaker 3>One of them was just discovered and published by a

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<v Speaker 3>group in Alberta. And then the other one, that's a

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<v Speaker 3>good question. It's been quite a while since I read

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<v Speaker 3>the paper, but they would be there, they'd.

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<v Speaker 2>Be in museums, right. There's only two of them known. Well.

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<v Speaker 2>I spent so long trying to find out where these

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<v Speaker 2>two fossils are, and I can tell you that one

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<v Speaker 2>was discovered in Mason Creek, Illinois, I think around nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety one, and the other is from Lebanon and was

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<v Speaker 2>acquired in twenty thirteen by a private fossil collecting company.

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<v Speaker 2>But I earnestly just spent probably two hours trying to

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<v Speaker 2>figure out if I could just go on a road

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<v Speaker 2>trip and see a hagfish fossil in person, And the

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<v Speaker 2>lack of information on their whereabouts has led me to

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<v Speaker 2>believe that they're both kept in a Subtrannean vault with

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<v Speaker 2>the Holy Grail, or they're just like k in it

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<v Speaker 2>like ballers in a timeshare with Bigfoot.

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<v Speaker 3>So precious, Yeah, super precious, and like I was saying,

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<v Speaker 3>very rare, right, But as we uncover more fossil beds,

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<v Speaker 3>there are particular fossilization conditions that lend themselves preserving soft

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<v Speaker 3>bodied animals better. I think there was just a big

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<v Speaker 3>deposit found in China actually in the last couple of

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<v Speaker 3>weeks that has a lot of soft bodied creatures, but

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's more in the Yeah, it could be

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<v Speaker 3>right in that three hundred and fifty million, four hundred

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<v Speaker 3>and fifty million year range.

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<v Speaker 2>And going back a little bit less far than that.

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<v Speaker 2>Your history when you were just a tiny tot Canadia,

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<v Speaker 2>did you always love poking around lakes and forests? What

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<v Speaker 2>was going on?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure. My mom always used to say that

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<v Speaker 3>she needed to distract me. She just said, she just

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<v Speaker 3>says she saw something in that puddle, and I'd be

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<v Speaker 3>pretty consumed for quite a while. Honestly, I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>there's a time when I didn't like science in some way, right,

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<v Speaker 3>Like I wanted microscopes when I was six, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>brought home every creepy crawley I could find and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>actually I collected butterflies.

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<v Speaker 2>My original plan as a child was to be an entomologist.

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<v Speaker 3>Really yeah, yeah, so I collected, you know, large numbers

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<v Speaker 3>of butterflies.

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<v Speaker 2>From all over the world wherever we went. And then

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<v Speaker 2>where did you flutter away from them and into hagfish tank?

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<v Speaker 3>That would have been yeah, in university, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I guess the opportunities to study tropical butterflies were limited

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<v Speaker 3>in Canada. So yeah, that's sort of what happened. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it was right around two thousand and seven. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>through meeting Doug and getting introduced to hagfish and then

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<v Speaker 3>started being brought into the fold as it was, into

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<v Speaker 3>the into the world a hagfish, there's sort of no

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<v Speaker 3>end of amazement. That's what's kept me here. That almost

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<v Speaker 3>any question you can ask about hagfish there likely isn't

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<v Speaker 3>a concrete answer.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when Doug said, hey, come on back study

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<v Speaker 2>some hagfish with me, what was your response to that? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it took a bit of prodding.

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<v Speaker 3>I think because I really did enjoy the Wildlife Research

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<v Speaker 3>station and living out in the woods there. But you know,

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<v Speaker 3>obviously we're sitting here in beautiful sunny southern California, which

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<v Speaker 3>didn't hurt.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you ever heard a more Canadian sentence. I really did.

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<v Speaker 3>Enjoy the Wildlife Research station and living out in the

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<v Speaker 3>woods there.

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<v Speaker 2>And Tim says he loves doing applied research on these critters,

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<v Speaker 2>figuring out how to use the slime to inform human

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<v Speaker 2>made alternatives. And his master's work was looking at how

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<v Speaker 2>we can use these fifteen centimeter long threads that spring

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<v Speaker 2>forth from the hagfish as a fiber source and get

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<v Speaker 2>away from petrochemical base fibers like acrylic and nylon and polyester.

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<v Speaker 2>So although he misses the wilderness, trading his parka for

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<v Speaker 2>board shorts wasn't all that tough.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think that my heart's always been into hagfish,

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<v Speaker 3>so in some ways it maybe didn't take too much.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, I think that the right projects, the right

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<v Speaker 3>people all sort of lend themselves to a good time

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<v Speaker 3>in science.

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<v Speaker 2>And so explain to me what the life of a

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<v Speaker 2>hagfish is like, where are they living, what are they eating,

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<v Speaker 2>who are they hanging out with? What's going on down there? Oh?

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<v Speaker 3>I think we all wish we knew. So what we

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<v Speaker 3>do know is that they're very sensitive to temperature and light. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>So they're a deep sea specialist. They seek out cold water.

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<v Speaker 3>There is maybe only one species that's found inside of

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<v Speaker 3>one hundred meters of depth, so there is called the

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<v Speaker 3>inshore hagfish, which is found in Japan. But other than that,

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<v Speaker 3>they're all very deep sea. They feed on a variety

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<v Speaker 3>of not only small tube worms and other invertebrates, but

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<v Speaker 3>also scavenge large windfalls of whales and seals and sea

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<v Speaker 3>lions and big fish that fall down into the ocean.

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<v Speaker 4>Deep.

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<v Speaker 2>That's deep, so sigde note remember the Toothology episode with

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah McNulty about marine snow that's soft, steady underwater dusting

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<v Speaker 2>of pooh and flesh chunks. While a dead whale is

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<v Speaker 2>like a marine blizzard, and hagfish love a snow day.

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<v Speaker 3>We know where, at least we think that they play

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<v Speaker 3>an important role in that bottom composition turnover. Right, So

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<v Speaker 3>when things do fall into the deep there's low oxygen,

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<v Speaker 3>there are conditions that can lend themselves, preserving something.

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<v Speaker 2>Like a whale for years.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, low temperatures, low oxygen, So maybe the bacterial decos

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<v Speaker 3>composition is not as prevalent like there would be bacterial decomposition,

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<v Speaker 3>But I think there's a place for hagfish and actually

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<v Speaker 3>cleaning up the bottom in that way and then spreading

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<v Speaker 3>the nutrients around right, so as they feed, they'll obviously

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<v Speaker 3>leave go back to their burrows or go back to

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<v Speaker 3>where they're living and bring nutrients with them and essentially

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<v Speaker 3>help spread nutrients in an otherwise very very desert like

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<v Speaker 3>deep sea environment.

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<v Speaker 2>Smell it, find it, munch it, poop it, spread it.

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<v Speaker 2>We were looking in the tank and some of them

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<v Speaker 2>are all coiled up. Some of them are just hanging

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<v Speaker 2>out in a tube. What's their day to day life

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<v Speaker 2>like in terms of what we know about where they live.

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<v Speaker 3>Some have a tendency to be in more muddy sandy bottoms.

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<v Speaker 3>Those ones, those species are typical burrowers. They'll actually live

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<v Speaker 3>in burrows in the mud and typically sit there with

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<v Speaker 3>just their nostril sticking out catching, you know, looking for

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<v Speaker 3>whiffs of whale or seals. But the other ones do

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<v Speaker 3>spend time on rocky bottoms, and I think those are

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<v Speaker 3>the species that tend to coil up a bit more

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<v Speaker 3>because they're just spending a lot more time on the

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<v Speaker 3>surface as opposed to within the substrate. But Yeah, there's

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<v Speaker 3>been interesting work as well showing that there's handedness that

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<v Speaker 3>hagfish have handedness. They have a tendency to coil either

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<v Speaker 3>right or left more than the other way right, so

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<v Speaker 3>they have a preference I think in captivity. There's probably

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<v Speaker 3>only maybe five or six common species for people to

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<v Speaker 3>have in captivity. There are a number of species that

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<v Speaker 3>do not do well at all, so they're really hard

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<v Speaker 3>to keep in artificial environments essentially, I think partially because

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<v Speaker 3>it's really hard to replicate the pressure that they're used

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<v Speaker 3>to living in. We can replicate temperature and salinity and

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<v Speaker 3>pH and all these other environmental parameters, but it's really

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<v Speaker 3>hard to recreate being a mile below the surface of

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<v Speaker 3>the ocean. And how are they making baby hagfish? Nobody knows. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>so nobody has ever witnessed hagfish breeding.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>And nobody has ever had hagfish successfully breed in captivity,

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<v Speaker 3>even unseen to produce fertile eggs. So we have hagfish

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<v Speaker 3>laying eggs in captivity all the time, but they're presumably

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<v Speaker 3>unfertilized because they never develop.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, So this is something that I'm really interested in

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<v Speaker 3>as well, is that is their seasonality in the deep sea,

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<v Speaker 3>even though it's dark and cold all year. Are they

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<v Speaker 3>more attuned to those deep sea conditions And maybe since

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<v Speaker 3>the difference in lunar phases, do they have a migration?

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<v Speaker 3>Are they always in the same place all the time?

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that they are moving throughout the season,

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<v Speaker 3>But it's just not a lot is known about it

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<v Speaker 3>because it's so hard to follow these things into the deep.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of the technology that's used for tracking fish

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00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.599
<v Speaker 3>and other stuff isn't at either the size scale that

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00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:22.039
<v Speaker 3>could be used in hagfish, or is just the fish

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<v Speaker 3>need to come to the surface to get data pings

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<v Speaker 3>and hagfish.

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<v Speaker 2>Never will, right.

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<v Speaker 3>So, yeah, they're really tough to follow, and we've got

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<v Speaker 3>a new underwater video rig that we're going to use

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<v Speaker 3>to try and at least peer into their lives a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>Would do you think that they would be following the

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<v Speaker 2>whales in case a whale does bite the dust and

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<v Speaker 2>falls down.

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<v Speaker 3>I think whales are typically undergoing such large migrations that

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<v Speaker 3>hagfish wouldn't be, say, following the herd type thing. I

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<v Speaker 3>think their low metabolism it suits them well to possibly

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<v Speaker 3>go a year or more without feed even in captivity,

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<v Speaker 3>we typically only feed them every three to six months.

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<v Speaker 4>What.

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00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yeah, they eat a lot when they eat, but

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00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:12.039
<v Speaker 3>they don't eat frequently.

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00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Wow. What do you feed them in captivity? They get

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a mixture.

339
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<v Speaker 3>There's shrimp and squid and beef and sometimes other random

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<v Speaker 3>large fish that we come across in our work. I

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<v Speaker 3>think we fed them in Opa, which is a very

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<v Speaker 3>interesting interesting fish.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so quick aside researching Opa. Opah got a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of hits on Oprah. It's a different thing. And Opa

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00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.359
<v Speaker 2>is a big, silvery round fish. It's also called a

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<v Speaker 2>moonfish looks like a moon and an Opa are one

347
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<v Speaker 2>of the rare endothermic fishes, which means, like oprah, it

348
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<v Speaker 2>has a warm heart.

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<v Speaker 3>We feed them a diversity of stuff, hopefully trying to

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<v Speaker 3>get them the right nutritional requirements they But again it's

351
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<v Speaker 3>something that is not really well understood and something that

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<v Speaker 3>we're looking to do more on is gathering gut contents

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<v Speaker 3>from hagfish. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you just drop like a pot roast in the

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<v Speaker 2>tank and they go nuts on it? Essentially? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>What does that look like like it's a bit of

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00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.640
<v Speaker 3>a feeding frenzy. Yeah, that they're all going at it.

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<v Speaker 3>It's really interesting as well though, because they lack appendages

359
00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.640
<v Speaker 3>and they don't have a jaw. The way if it

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00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.119
<v Speaker 3>is to actually, like say, a big pot roast, they

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00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.440
<v Speaker 3>actually tie themselves into knots that they slide against the

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<v Speaker 3>pot roast to actually tug on it.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. Yeah, so they tie the same knots

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00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>to rid themselves of slime. But they have a very.

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00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.119
<v Speaker 3>Unique way of actually latching onto something without jaws, right,

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<v Speaker 3>so they.

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<v Speaker 2>Can pull at it exactly and get like some resistance.

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<v Speaker 2>Have you ever seen a hagfish eating in a whale?

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<v Speaker 3>Only in film? I've never seen it in real life.

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<v Speaker 3>I would love to do.

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<v Speaker 2>They go into the whale and then burrow out.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they are definitely spending a lot of time inside

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<v Speaker 3>the whale. A recent study was published actually showing that

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<v Speaker 3>they can absorb amino acids across their skin, right, so

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<v Speaker 3>they you know, part of their low metabolism, their ability

376
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<v Speaker 3>to deal with low oxygen. All of these unique adaptations

377
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.680
<v Speaker 3>really allow them to live that lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not a lifestyle choice, beella.

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<v Speaker 3>And to go into a whale in which oxygen concentrations

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<v Speaker 3>could be quite low. Bacterial levels high all this other stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>They're perfectly at home, may feed there for months on.

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<v Speaker 2>End, for months just gorging, and then be like am

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<v Speaker 2>I and then go hang out for a year.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

385
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's so efficient. I have to say that's good

386
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.000
<v Speaker 2>for them. That it's like take on a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>cargo and then just kick it for a bit.

388
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<v Speaker 3>And I think we see that with anything that's withstood

389
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.680
<v Speaker 3>the test of one hundreds of millions of years, right,

390
00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:06.680
<v Speaker 3>that they're typically generalists right there. You know, something like

391
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.119
<v Speaker 3>a crocodile, right can eat anything, can go months and

392
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.960
<v Speaker 3>months without eating, like they just there's certain life history

393
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:21.519
<v Speaker 3>characteristics that lend themselves to withstanding mass extinctions and all

394
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:26.680
<v Speaker 3>of the climatic changes that impact very niche specific species.

395
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<v Speaker 2>Right. So, after this interview, Tim and I went and

396
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:34.440
<v Speaker 2>we ate tacos, and I realized later that despite flinging

397
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<v Speaker 2>around wet loaves of hagfish mucus in the lab earlier,

398
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:40.680
<v Speaker 2>neither one of us washed our hands. But we also

399
00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:44.960
<v Speaker 2>had a spirited discussion about the importance of a diverse microbiome,

400
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:46.599
<v Speaker 2>So I think we're on the same like so wet

401
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.279
<v Speaker 2>page there. Also at lunch, he mentioned that the hagfish

402
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:54.480
<v Speaker 2>traps are like buckets with a few conical ports that

403
00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:57.079
<v Speaker 2>funnel the hagfish in so they can't get out. But

404
00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:59.440
<v Speaker 2>what do they use to lure them into the bucket?

405
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.759
<v Speaker 2>Turns out hagfish love the smell of big mammal bones

406
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.839
<v Speaker 2>and fat, So they toss a fleshy beef bone in there,

407
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.279
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, do they get to eat it?

408
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.480
<v Speaker 2>And He's like, nah, that would mess up their gut

409
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.240
<v Speaker 2>content data. So the beef bones are in a mesh bag,

410
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:20.519
<v Speaker 2>meaning that the hagfish smell it, find it, but can't

411
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.119
<v Speaker 2>munch it, poop it, or spread it. The hagfish have

412
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 2>been catfished, and they tend to eat the bigger things,

413
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.799
<v Speaker 2>Like if a whale sea lion is that kind of

414
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.119
<v Speaker 2>what their bread and butter is is. Oh man, there's

415
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:39.319
<v Speaker 2>a big whale. It's big and dead floating down here. Thanksgiving.

416
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:41.319
<v Speaker 2>What's happening? Yeah? I think.

417
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.759
<v Speaker 3>That's the real train of thought that we're on is

418
00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:49.759
<v Speaker 3>essentially that a lot of their features, a lot of

419
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:54.319
<v Speaker 3>their adaptations, would lend themselves to really capitalizing on those

420
00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:59.759
<v Speaker 3>big whale falls or big mammal falls. They have very

421
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.079
<v Speaker 3>low metabolisms. If you compared them to a vertebrate, they'd

422
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:07.319
<v Speaker 3>have one of the lowest metabolisms of any vertebrate really, right,

423
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, they they live slow. So there's that, right,

424
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:19.480
<v Speaker 3>there's you know, we've observed them absolutely gorging at these.

425
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.039
<v Speaker 2>Deep sea sites, right, so they just you know, they.

426
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.160
<v Speaker 3>Fill their guts to the point that there may be

427
00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:28.960
<v Speaker 3>many times their original mass. Well, I was hungry, So

428
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:31.920
<v Speaker 3>to be able to do that as well makes you

429
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.920
<v Speaker 3>think that this is that's the predominantly what they're doing.

430
00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.240
<v Speaker 3>But we also see that they do feed on some

431
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.119
<v Speaker 3>sort of tube worms and these other invertebrates that are

432
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.400
<v Speaker 3>found in the sediment in which the haggfish live.

433
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.920
<v Speaker 2>So, and can you run me through some body parts

434
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 2>of a hag fish?

435
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I guess if you're to have a hagfish

436
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.440
<v Speaker 3>out on the table. They they do have a head, right,

437
00:25:56.599 --> 00:25:59.279
<v Speaker 3>So they have barbles at the end of the head,

438
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:05.799
<v Speaker 3>which are essential they're chemical sensing devices, right they have

439
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.839
<v Speaker 3>the catfish, Yeah, catfish have barbles as well, right, So yeah,

440
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:13.599
<v Speaker 3>they'd be packed with what we call chemosensory cells that

441
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:17.759
<v Speaker 3>would be picking up things like the sense of dead

442
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.079
<v Speaker 3>or decaying fish, right or a whale. So they start

443
00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.960
<v Speaker 3>with those. They have a very large intake aperture for

444
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:26.519
<v Speaker 3>their gill system.

445
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:32.079
<v Speaker 2>So seawater gets snorgled through their face snoop, and then

446
00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:36.359
<v Speaker 2>that water is expelled through these breathing holes on the side,

447
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.759
<v Speaker 2>so they're kind of like a slimy water flute that

448
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.960
<v Speaker 2>someone sewed from a dee boned baby. Anyway, they smell

449
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:44.960
<v Speaker 2>like champs.

450
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.359
<v Speaker 3>It also feeds into a sack right very close to

451
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:54.039
<v Speaker 3>their brain, so they have probably an incredible ability to

452
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:58.119
<v Speaker 3>detect very saint or very faint smells, which makes sense,

453
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.039
<v Speaker 3>right if they're potentially hundreds of meters from something that fell,

454
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:06.480
<v Speaker 3>or maybe even further right, So, they have very primitive eyes.

455
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.799
<v Speaker 3>If you look at a lot of the hagfish, they

456
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:11.440
<v Speaker 3>don't have the type of eyes that we would normally

457
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:16.039
<v Speaker 3>associate with a fish. Theirs actually don't even protrude through

458
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.599
<v Speaker 3>the skin, So there's a transparent layer of skin that

459
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:24.759
<v Speaker 3>covers a very rudimentary eye that was likely more developed

460
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:28.279
<v Speaker 3>at one time but was just not selected for and

461
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:30.960
<v Speaker 3>they essentially lost its full functionality.

462
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:36.160
<v Speaker 2>So eyes we're off that had them lost them baller, Now,

463
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.160
<v Speaker 2>what is happening with that mouth? First of all, it

464
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:45.039
<v Speaker 2>has these whisky flesh dangles that look kind of like

465
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:49.079
<v Speaker 2>a tiny handlebar mustache made out of little dix. But

466
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:51.720
<v Speaker 2>don't go looking for jaws here, no, no, sir. They

467
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.880
<v Speaker 2>have what Tim calls a muscular appendage inside their mouth,

468
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.440
<v Speaker 2>and it juts out this little paddle of hard, jagged spikes,

469
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of like a snail's tongue. So imagine if your

470
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.759
<v Speaker 2>tongue had rows and rows of those things in parking

471
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.039
<v Speaker 2>lots that'll pop your tires if you drive the wrong

472
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:13.039
<v Speaker 2>way on them. So, yeah, hagfish, they deserve our respect.

473
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:17.720
<v Speaker 3>So essentially there are these caratinous teeth or the same

474
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, the same material that makes up our fingernails

475
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:24.279
<v Speaker 3>makes up their their rasp, which they use to actually

476
00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:30.119
<v Speaker 3>essentially sand tissue off of a carcass or to slurp

477
00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 3>up a little worm that they're after. But then when

478
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.079
<v Speaker 3>you look at the rest of them, they vary a

479
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 3>little bit in terms of their gill apertures that water

480
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:42.839
<v Speaker 3>flows out of. The more burrowing specialist hagfish will have

481
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.920
<v Speaker 3>reduced numbers of gill openings in which the water flows out.

482
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Of again water flute. Now, all of this is just

483
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the tater skins, the jalapeno poppers appetizers before we get

484
00:28:55.440 --> 00:29:00.119
<v Speaker 2>to the main course, because here here's where things get slimy. Now,

485
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:04.440
<v Speaker 2>if you've listened to previous episodes of Ologies or the

486
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.920
<v Speaker 2>first twelve seconds of this one, you know I don't

487
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:12.039
<v Speaker 2>censor language. The fuck is a hagfish. Most science podcasts

488
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>bleep out questionable swear words, but I embrace raw emotion

489
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.759
<v Speaker 2>and freedom of adult expression in science communication in this podcast,

490
00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 2>at least with the exception of the word mucus it's

491
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.519
<v Speaker 2>too gross. It comes up between ten to fifteen times

492
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.359
<v Speaker 2>and the remainder of this episode, So when you hear

493
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>a faint chime, please know it's just replacing the word mucus.

494
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Please feel free take a glug of your beverage in

495
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:43.880
<v Speaker 2>front of you, do a tiny, imperceptible butt dance to

496
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:45.680
<v Speaker 2>celebrate the absence of this word.

497
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.000
<v Speaker 3>And then as you move into the rest of the body,

498
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.359
<v Speaker 3>you'll notice along the ventral side that they have about

499
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.799
<v Speaker 3>one hundred to one hundred and fifty slime gland openings right,

500
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.839
<v Speaker 3>so they're literally covered head to tail with these glands

501
00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:02.640
<v Speaker 3>that produce their defa slime. So whether they're bit on

502
00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:04.880
<v Speaker 3>the head or on the tail. They can in a

503
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.319
<v Speaker 3>fraction of a second, like less than one hundred milliseconds,

504
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:13.640
<v Speaker 3>produce copious quantities of this fiber reinforced slime.

505
00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Which is astounding. It's astounding like for something that is

506
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:25.440
<v Speaker 2>maybe not as advanced as some other vertebrates. This is

507
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:29.480
<v Speaker 2>a defense system that is still very much mysterious in

508
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:31.440
<v Speaker 2>terms of how it works, right.

509
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:36.599
<v Speaker 3>I think, yeah, So if everything else about the hagfish

510
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:41.119
<v Speaker 3>we would call primitive, this is highly derived, right. This

511
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:46.079
<v Speaker 3>is unlike anything else found in nature. We know of

512
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:48.359
<v Speaker 3>a lot of mucuses, we know of a lot of

513
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:53.359
<v Speaker 3>natural fiber sources like silkworm silks or spider silks, But

514
00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.519
<v Speaker 3>hagfish threads that are found in their slime are not

515
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.519
<v Speaker 3>only comparative to spider silks and in terms of their

516
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:05.480
<v Speaker 3>mechanical properties that they're incredibly tough, but they produce this

517
00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:07.839
<v Speaker 3>stuff in prodigious quantities.

518
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.759
<v Speaker 2>This cannot be overstated.

519
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.480
<v Speaker 3>Like an individual hagfish may have twenty thousand kilometers of

520
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.960
<v Speaker 3>fiber in its body at any one time. And what's

521
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:23.519
<v Speaker 3>so unique about these fibers is that they're packaged into

522
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:28.480
<v Speaker 3>fifteen centimeter fiber lengths, but that's coiled into one hundred

523
00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:32.160
<v Speaker 3>and fifty micron cell, so like a little bit more

524
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:36.559
<v Speaker 3>than a tenth of a millimeter. They pack fifteen centimeters

525
00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:37.759
<v Speaker 3>of thread into.

526
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.039
<v Speaker 2>So to put that in perspective, the threads that make

527
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.599
<v Speaker 2>up this water trapping slime network are ten million times

528
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:50.279
<v Speaker 2>longer than they are wide, and they are somehow neatly

529
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 2>coiled like a skin of yarn into a tiny cell capsule,

530
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:59.000
<v Speaker 2>ready to be ejected and unfurled. Now, more on how

531
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that works in a minute. But ad minute, you love hagfish?

532
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>How are they coiling this? What is their gooey witchcraft?

533
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>You're intrigued?

534
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.559
<v Speaker 3>So that process in and of itself has been something

535
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 3>that has really intrigued us for quite some time.

536
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.680
<v Speaker 2>And is it hard for them to make more of it?

537
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>If they slime someone and they're like bye bye, Laida,

538
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.440
<v Speaker 2>do they have to go sit and produce more? Is

539
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:28.440
<v Speaker 2>it energy expensive for them? Yeah?

540
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.119
<v Speaker 3>The fibers are made up of protein, which in general

541
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 3>is quite expensive to make. But one of the unique

542
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.599
<v Speaker 3>things that the hagfish does by having so many slime

543
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.319
<v Speaker 3>glands is that it never deploys them all at once, right,

544
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:47.119
<v Speaker 3>So they do have some sight specificity. Right, If you

545
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:50.160
<v Speaker 3>bite it on the tail, it may only release exitate,

546
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.400
<v Speaker 3>is what we call the condensed slime. Essentially, it may

547
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:56.640
<v Speaker 3>only release a few glands worth, like two or three

548
00:32:56.680 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 3>glands on either side of its body, which is enough

549
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:04.200
<v Speaker 3>to preduce use a gallon of form slime. So like,

550
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:08.960
<v Speaker 3>they would never be caught without slime. Ever, they just

551
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 3>have so much on board, And there's some indication as

552
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:15.519
<v Speaker 3>well that they can't actually release all of the slime

553
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:18.960
<v Speaker 3>from a single gland because they likely retain the immature

554
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.960
<v Speaker 3>cell components which would otherwise maybe be released but not

555
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 3>function as they should.

556
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what happens when these fibers hit water?

557
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:33.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that's something that's really interesting to us. So

558
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.319
<v Speaker 3>it's a two component slime. It's released by what's called

559
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:43.000
<v Speaker 3>holocrimes secretion, which means that the cells are actually having

560
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:46.480
<v Speaker 3>their membrane stripped off of them as they pass through

561
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.240
<v Speaker 3>the pore of the slime gland.

562
00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

563
00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:53.279
<v Speaker 3>Right, So it narrows down to a tiny opening that

564
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:56.720
<v Speaker 3>strips the cells of their membranes. So when they're released

565
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:01.359
<v Speaker 3>to seawater, they're exposed to an entirely new environment. Right, water,

566
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:07.599
<v Speaker 3>there's an interaction with the seawater. There's essentially the solubilization

567
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:12.039
<v Speaker 3>of proteins that help maintain these fibers in their coiled

568
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:16.480
<v Speaker 3>up state. But what happens is that the seawater very

569
00:34:16.599 --> 00:34:21.320
<v Speaker 3>rapidly bursts the vesicles that are released. They shear out

570
00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 3>into these long strands, which essentially transmit forces of mixing

571
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.360
<v Speaker 3>down to the thread bundles.

572
00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:32.360
<v Speaker 2>So instant replay. The hagfish takes the offense defense ejects

573
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.960
<v Speaker 2>tiny coiled balls of the exitit, getting their little membrane

574
00:34:35.960 --> 00:34:38.719
<v Speaker 2>covers stripped. As a exit, the threads hit the water

575
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.719
<v Speaker 2>at xpand trapping more water in a net of microfiber

576
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 2>threads expanding ten thousand times its size. Slime predator offense

577
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:52.760
<v Speaker 2>retreats down for the count. Hagfish remains the champion of

578
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.199
<v Speaker 2>the deep or in timswords.

579
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:59.599
<v Speaker 3>To simplify what I just said, I guess the mix

580
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:05.079
<v Speaker 3>least really vigorous mixing that's created by either the hagfish

581
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.559
<v Speaker 3>trying to escape or the predator trying to eat. The

582
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:13.000
<v Speaker 3>hagfish further expands this network of fiber until it forms

583
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:17.880
<v Speaker 3>this fully formed slime ball, which is capable of fully

584
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.639
<v Speaker 3>clogging the gills of a ten foot shark. Right We've

585
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:26.840
<v Speaker 3>never seen a successful predation on a hagfish by any

586
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:28.159
<v Speaker 3>gill breathing predator.

587
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 2>So we see sea.

588
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:36.079
<v Speaker 3>Lions, birds, porpoises, all successful hagfish predators because they're breathing

589
00:35:36.199 --> 00:35:41.920
<v Speaker 3>mechanisms are separated from their eating mechanism essentially just like us,

590
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.320
<v Speaker 3>right like we can breathe and eat at the same time,

591
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 3>whereas most gill breathing fish can't. They're breathing all the time,

592
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.159
<v Speaker 3>and that is what exposes them to the slime.

593
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:54.599
<v Speaker 2>So you got gills, you get screwed, and so that

594
00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:59.400
<v Speaker 2>slime will just clog their actual respiration exactly like I'm.

595
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:03.360
<v Speaker 3>Out, the water flow from going across their gills. And

596
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:07.239
<v Speaker 3>we actually don't know what happens to them, because all

597
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.960
<v Speaker 3>of the video work that's been done has happened with wild,

598
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:14.719
<v Speaker 3>free living animals. When the sharks or the fish get slimed,

599
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:18.519
<v Speaker 3>they quickly leave the video frame, and we actually don't

600
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:21.920
<v Speaker 3>know whether they actually die or whether any of these

601
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.360
<v Speaker 3>animals can get the slime off their gills. It just

602
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.760
<v Speaker 3>gets wrapped around everything. With the thousands of you know,

603
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.519
<v Speaker 3>with miles and miles of fiber, it's very easy for

604
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.400
<v Speaker 3>it to just get wrapped around things and stay there man.

605
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:40.159
<v Speaker 2>And so how much of this slime is actually water

606
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:41.880
<v Speaker 2>and how much is the fiber protein.

607
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.400
<v Speaker 3>So when the exit it's released into seawater and fully

608
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:52.000
<v Speaker 3>sets up, it's over ninety nine percent seawater. So essentially,

609
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.960
<v Speaker 3>hagfish slime can be formed in any container. It'll conform

610
00:36:56.079 --> 00:37:00.440
<v Speaker 3>to the shape of almost anything. We did at that

611
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.440
<v Speaker 3>showed that it's actually one of the softest materials known

612
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.800
<v Speaker 3>to man. It's very deformable.

613
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:10.039
<v Speaker 2>So side note. This study was Concentration independent Mechanics and

614
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:13.320
<v Speaker 2>Structure of hagfish Slime, and one of the paper's authors,

615
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.320
<v Speaker 2>Randy Ilwalt, told the Atlantics at Yong that hagfish slime

616
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:21.800
<v Speaker 2>is one of the softest materials ever measured, and quote,

617
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:25.880
<v Speaker 2>jello is between ten thousand and one hundred thousand times

618
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.199
<v Speaker 2>stiffer than hagfish slime. I have touched it and it

619
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:33.719
<v Speaker 2>is some soft, silky business. And then I went and

620
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:38.800
<v Speaker 2>touched nachos because I'm ten thousand times tougher than purel apparently.

621
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:43.960
<v Speaker 2>But when it's put into elongational flow or stretched, that's

622
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:48.000
<v Speaker 2>when the fibers and their reinforcement properties start to be felt,

623
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:52.920
<v Speaker 2>because they're actually incredibly strong when you stretch them. What

624
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:58.039
<v Speaker 2>do you think are some applications of hagfish slime? Are

625
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:02.840
<v Speaker 2>people looking at this being like? I think so it's

626
00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:07.239
<v Speaker 2>such a unique mechanism. I think, first of all, this.

627
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.760
<v Speaker 3>Speed with which this slime sets up interests people because

628
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 3>whatever is happening, and we've been trying to figure this

629
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 3>out for years, happens so quickly that it's likely one

630
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:25.239
<v Speaker 3>of the fastest reactions that we know of. It's so

631
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:30.039
<v Speaker 3>incredibly fast that I think how we could learn how

632
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.679
<v Speaker 3>to not only maybe bundle things, but unbundle or uncoil things,

633
00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:40.320
<v Speaker 3>and also how we develop rapidly expanding gel networks would

634
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:42.440
<v Speaker 3>be an interesting application.

635
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Right.

636
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 3>The fibers themselves, I've always been interested in actually using

637
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:52.880
<v Speaker 3>for textile Right, They're very, very fine. They're a micron

638
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:56.719
<v Speaker 3>in diameter. So even when you think of microfiber clothing,

639
00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.559
<v Speaker 3>which is so soft, that stuff's like thirty to fifty

640
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.280
<v Speaker 3>micrones in diameter, so it's much finer.

641
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.480
<v Speaker 2>So let's get some scale for microns real quick. A

642
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.119
<v Speaker 2>micron is one millionth of a meter, and a human

643
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.599
<v Speaker 2>hair is around fifty to one hundred microns in diameter.

644
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.320
<v Speaker 2>A red blood cell is five microns across. The human

645
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.599
<v Speaker 2>eye can't see much smaller than around forty microns, So yes,

646
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:25.039
<v Speaker 2>hagfish silk would be luxurious as hell. It'd probably make

647
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:29.360
<v Speaker 2>the softest T shirt. Well, would you have to do

648
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.639
<v Speaker 2>to get it from a like a puddle of two

649
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:35.880
<v Speaker 2>like a loom? Would you have to dry it out?

650
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:39.159
<v Speaker 3>I think that you'd probably want to isolate the thread

651
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:42.039
<v Speaker 3>bundles and then work with them on their own. But

652
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:46.599
<v Speaker 3>I think the biggest challenge right now is that it

653
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:50.920
<v Speaker 3>is such a narrow fiber that any of the equipment

654
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:55.079
<v Speaker 3>that's used right now to spin textiles is not built

655
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:56.719
<v Speaker 3>at a scale that could handle it.

656
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:01.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and now there's a PI shirt that went around

657
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>the internet that made everyone question what the deal was

658
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.559
<v Speaker 2>with hagfish. This photo of a car that got into

659
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:11.639
<v Speaker 2>an accident and it was carrying a ton of hagfish

660
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.519
<v Speaker 2>and there was slime everywhere. Yeah, it is all around us.

661
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Can you give me any backstory or any any thoughts

662
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:19.639
<v Speaker 2>on that.

663
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:26.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, there is a commercial hagfish fishery, So hagfish are

664
00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:29.679
<v Speaker 3>used as food products in places like Korea. They're eaten,

665
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.519
<v Speaker 3>but also for quite a few years their skin was

666
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.599
<v Speaker 3>used to make eel skin leather products, so if anybody

667
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 3>has something that's called eel skin leather, it's actually probably hagfish.

668
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:43.880
<v Speaker 2>So they made.

669
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.599
<v Speaker 3>Belts and wallets and handbags and still do to this day.

670
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.920
<v Speaker 3>So it's likely that that transport had a bunch of

671
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:55.519
<v Speaker 3>hagfish that were going to market and when it got

672
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.000
<v Speaker 3>into the accident, it stressed the hagfish out and they

673
00:40:59.039 --> 00:40:59.880
<v Speaker 3>started producing.

674
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:03.880
<v Speaker 2>So this happened on the coast of Oregon near Depot Bay,

675
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.719
<v Speaker 2>and the photos are bananas. It looks like these giant

676
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:12.320
<v Speaker 2>earthworms covered in silvery ectoplasm on a two lane highway,

677
00:41:12.599 --> 00:41:16.199
<v Speaker 2>covering the whole thing. They're slithering toward the gutter. A

678
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.400
<v Speaker 2>four car pile up looks like a giant sneezed on it.

679
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:25.199
<v Speaker 2>There are bulldozers scooping up slime eels as they're called

680
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:28.639
<v Speaker 2>by the hundreds. They're hosing off the road with apparently

681
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:32.519
<v Speaker 2>five thousand gallons of water and then just letting them

682
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:36.440
<v Speaker 2>die there on the shoulder. And hagfish, quite frankly, deserve

683
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:40.519
<v Speaker 2>more respect. The local CBS affiliate was on the scene,

684
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.360
<v Speaker 2>could have no choice for to get out, and I

685
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:43.880
<v Speaker 2>was walking in it.

686
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:47.000
<v Speaker 3>It was ugly and Aaron Butler had a near miss

687
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.719
<v Speaker 3>with all that fish.

688
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:49.679
<v Speaker 4>On the ground.

689
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:52.480
<v Speaker 3>It was still moving, I mean it was there was

690
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:53.719
<v Speaker 3>liquid eels.

691
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:57.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hagfish. Yeah. Can you imagine if we did that

692
00:41:57.079 --> 00:41:58.840
<v Speaker 2>when we were just stressed out, like I'm having a

693
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:06.039
<v Speaker 2>day guys, Yeah, just covered. Is there a difference between slime, Well,

694
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a good question.

695
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:13.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure how much slime is maybe a technical term, right,

696
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:18.679
<v Speaker 3>I think that maybe all slimes have you know, but

697
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:21.920
<v Speaker 3>maybe not all their slimes.

698
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

699
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:28.760
<v Speaker 3>No, yeah, like with hagfish slime, maybe we call it

700
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:34.199
<v Speaker 3>a slime because it's a two part system, whereas.

701
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Something like a snail.

702
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:41.360
<v Speaker 3>That leaves a trail it's really just okay, maybe that's

703
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:41.679
<v Speaker 3>what it is.

704
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:43.760
<v Speaker 2>But I guess you call it snail slime too. Yeah,

705
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna look at it. I'm going to figure that out. Yeah, sure, okay.

706
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I looked into this distinction, and the M word is

707
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.320
<v Speaker 2>made by membranes and slime is derived from the root

708
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:59.199
<v Speaker 2>word for sticky mud or marsh. But it now also

709
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 2>means thing, you know what I mean, So different routes,

710
00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:07.320
<v Speaker 2>but technically now interchangeable terms. So just in case you

711
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.519
<v Speaker 2>need that information in your everyday life, your day to

712
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:12.599
<v Speaker 2>day work with hagfish. What does it involve? What are

713
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you looking at? What's the process?

714
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:18.559
<v Speaker 3>Well, my work right now is looking at whether or

715
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:25.760
<v Speaker 3>not hagfish slime can be used to essentially block the

716
00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 3>flow of water around different objects, right, so, you know,

717
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.840
<v Speaker 3>a boat propeller or a great system, or how we

718
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:41.800
<v Speaker 3>can use its natural tendency to clog and reduce water

719
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:46.480
<v Speaker 3>flow in ways that we can essentially harness it as

720
00:43:46.519 --> 00:43:49.440
<v Speaker 3>a useful thing for people. One idea might be that

721
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.320
<v Speaker 3>maybe you can mix it into an oil slick and

722
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 3>bind the water and the oil into it and then

723
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.599
<v Speaker 3>remove it that way, right, Like, that's not something we're

724
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:01.400
<v Speaker 3>currently working on, but I always had that interest and

725
00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:05.159
<v Speaker 3>that it mops up water so well that I'd be

726
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Speaker 3>interested to see what it could do, you know, with

727
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.639
<v Speaker 3>potential contamination and waterways and other things.

728
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. How do you think hagfish are portrayed in the media.

729
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 3>I think people love to hate them, I think, yeah,

730
00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:23.519
<v Speaker 3>which is sort of sad to me as well. I

731
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:27.719
<v Speaker 3>think that, like anything in the ocean, it's not on

732
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:31.920
<v Speaker 3>our radar a lot, right, So once we move off

733
00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:36.400
<v Speaker 3>of land into the sea, it's quite literally another world,

734
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.039
<v Speaker 3>and when you move from the shallow seas into the

735
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:45.039
<v Speaker 3>deep sea, it's like outer space, right. So I think

736
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:48.519
<v Speaker 3>that you know, as humans, we tend to look at

737
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:51.920
<v Speaker 3>things that have features that are similar to ours, Right,

738
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.519
<v Speaker 3>If they have big eyes, they're cute, you know, we

739
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:58.239
<v Speaker 3>look for those features, and I think hagfish pretty much

740
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:03.800
<v Speaker 3>lack everything that we can associate with, so that probably

741
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.280
<v Speaker 3>lends it to like, you know, seeming like an ugly

742
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:11.519
<v Speaker 3>worm like eel like creature. But I'd say that the

743
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.639
<v Speaker 3>more you work with them, the cuter they become, and

744
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:16.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, your respect level definitely goes up.

745
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Do you have favorite hagfish in the tank? Are you like,

746
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:19.400
<v Speaker 2>what's up, buddy?

747
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 3>I think so, yeah, Like they do have They do

748
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:25.599
<v Speaker 3>have different skin features just like we do, that you

749
00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.239
<v Speaker 3>can use to identify individuals. And I also think that

750
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:33.320
<v Speaker 3>they have personality, right that some are naturally more relaxed

751
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.760
<v Speaker 3>than others, and depending on what you're wanting to do

752
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.320
<v Speaker 3>with them, you know, a relaxed tagfish can be a

753
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:40.880
<v Speaker 3>good hagfish.

754
00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.119
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if the other hagfish, You're like, why does

755
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:45.320
<v Speaker 2>he always get picked? And He's like, I don't know, man,

756
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm just cool. To cool to kick it. Just an update.

757
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.920
<v Speaker 2>My new life motto is a relaxed tagfish can be

758
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:56.440
<v Speaker 2>a good hagfish. Also, Tim says hagfish do have a

759
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:01.599
<v Speaker 2>reason to be uptight. Scientists aren't sure what effect overfishing

760
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:06.480
<v Speaker 2>or rising ocean temperatures will have on their populations. Plastic is,

761
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:10.000
<v Speaker 2>of course another issue. Tim says, we all know it's

762
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.840
<v Speaker 2>on the surfaces of the ocean, but he wonders where

763
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:14.639
<v Speaker 2>it's ending up in the deep sea as well, and

764
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:18.039
<v Speaker 2>what organisms are ingesting it and what that'll mean for

765
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.719
<v Speaker 2>the future of the hagfish. And he's about to embark

766
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:24.519
<v Speaker 2>on an expedition to the Galapagos. He's great at trapping

767
00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:29.000
<v Speaker 2>and is tinkering with new observation cameras to deploy. Folks

768
00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:32.320
<v Speaker 2>on his research team referred to him as the hagfish Wrangler.

769
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:35.000
<v Speaker 2>How deep are you able to do research?

770
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:40.800
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of the limitations are because you have,

771
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.920
<v Speaker 3>like say, if we're dropping traps, you typically will have

772
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.360
<v Speaker 3>a rope that has to go the whole depth, right,

773
00:46:47.440 --> 00:46:51.599
<v Speaker 3>So if you're in four thousand feet, you need such

774
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.960
<v Speaker 3>a huge amount of rope to get down there that

775
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:57.679
<v Speaker 3>it limits say how many traps you can have down

776
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:04.360
<v Speaker 3>at once. So we're experimenting with some lineless trapping methods

777
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:08.679
<v Speaker 3>that actually use corrosible links that are made of magnesium

778
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.320
<v Speaker 3>that corode and seawater at a known rate, so that

779
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:16.760
<v Speaker 3>you can drop traps and end our camera equipment into say,

780
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:20.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, like six thousand feet of water and have

781
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.119
<v Speaker 3>them float back to the surface once the link corrodes.

782
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

783
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:28.119
<v Speaker 3>So there are some really unique deep sea technologies that

784
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.920
<v Speaker 3>are making this stuff possible now that maybe wasn't you know,

785
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:33.159
<v Speaker 3>ten twenty years ago.

786
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is all start. It's just ramping up. Yeah,

787
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.960
<v Speaker 2>such an exciting field of research. I feel like so

788
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:42.840
<v Speaker 2>many eyes are on hagfish to be like, what is

789
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.880
<v Speaker 2>happening with hagfish? Where is the slime coming from? How

790
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:48.480
<v Speaker 2>have they lived for so long? So quick check in.

791
00:47:48.639 --> 00:47:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I searched hagfish myths and I did see the Google

792
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:55.440
<v Speaker 2>auto filled with the most frequent questions asked, which included

793
00:47:55.639 --> 00:48:00.440
<v Speaker 2>are hagfish poisonous? What? No? Can a hagfish bite a human? No,

794
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.159
<v Speaker 2>they don't even have a jaw. However, if you wound

795
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.840
<v Speaker 2>up on the ocean floor not alive, it might smell you,

796
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:10.079
<v Speaker 2>find you munch you poop you spread you but at

797
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:14.079
<v Speaker 2>that point you would have way bigger problems than the hagfish. Now.

798
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I kept searching for more flimflam, and I found that

799
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:21.320
<v Speaker 2>in Korea, hagfish is an afrodisiac and a fertility food.

800
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Its shape might have something to do with that. I

801
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:28.679
<v Speaker 2>also came upon a Smithsonian article that said, according to

802
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:33.400
<v Speaker 2>common hagfish mythology, they can fill a five gallon bucket

803
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:37.199
<v Speaker 2>with the stuff in mere minutes. And that is a

804
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:40.480
<v Speaker 2>myth because people it takes seconds and it could fill

805
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:44.639
<v Speaker 2>a barrel. Is there any flim flam about hagfish that

806
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:46.800
<v Speaker 2>you would want to debunk? Any myths that you feel

807
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.239
<v Speaker 2>like need to, Oh, hagfish myths you should throw in

808
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.280
<v Speaker 2>my way? What have you heard? What are they up to? Oh?

809
00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:57.599
<v Speaker 2>I haven't heard. I haven't heard a lot of faulty

810
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.800
<v Speaker 2>gossip about a hagfish. Yeah, maybe that they're I mean,

811
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.920
<v Speaker 2>they're opportunists, but that's the beauty of them. But do

812
00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.519
<v Speaker 2>you think anyone do you think people are grossed out

813
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:11.039
<v Speaker 2>by them because of the factor.

814
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:13.400
<v Speaker 3>Or oh I think so okay, Yeah, I would say

815
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.599
<v Speaker 3>that really grosses people out. But the reality is, like

816
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:22.559
<v Speaker 3>in the slime itself. It's not sticky, it's not toxic,

817
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:26.199
<v Speaker 3>it's you know, like it's actually really fun to play

818
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:29.239
<v Speaker 3>with it is. I would say that, you know, and

819
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:33.239
<v Speaker 3>I would I would challenge anyone to meet a hagfish

820
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:37.079
<v Speaker 3>and to see their slime and not be as intrigued

821
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:41.079
<v Speaker 3>as I am. Right, it's you literally are sometimes left

822
00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:43.599
<v Speaker 3>speechless and and in wonder.

823
00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, have you ever seen any hagfish in a movie

824
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:47.199
<v Speaker 2>or TV show?

825
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:50.400
<v Speaker 3>I think there have been some hagfish cartoons. There was

826
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:54.400
<v Speaker 3>a band called Hagfish. Really, it's like a punk punk

827
00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:55.880
<v Speaker 3>band called Hagfish.

828
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:58.280
<v Speaker 2>What did you think of them? I've never listened to them.

829
00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I should. You're gonna come up on their Google alert.

830
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:04.360
<v Speaker 2>It's gonna be like, oh man, that's about the fish again. Yeah.

831
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:08.639
<v Speaker 2>The band Hagfish emerged in nineteen ninety one, broke up

832
00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.559
<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and one, and had an energetic neopunk

833
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:15.800
<v Speaker 2>style descended from the Descendants Now. One of their most

834
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:20.280
<v Speaker 2>revered studio albums is called Rocks Your Lame Ass, and,

835
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:24.519
<v Speaker 2>according to music journalist Tricksy Delight, their name itself means

836
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:27.719
<v Speaker 2>nothing to the band personally. It was simply chosen randomly

837
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:35.280
<v Speaker 2>from a Dictionary. Here's what they sound like. PS. They

838
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 2>wore suits and had sideburns and opened for the Reverend

839
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Horton Heat and made a few other albums. So hagfish

840
00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:43.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of made it big. But how big can hagfish

841
00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:44.159
<v Speaker 2>make it?

842
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.519
<v Speaker 3>You know, we're already seeing like some of these hagfish

843
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:50.760
<v Speaker 3>are four to six feet long. Others are absolutely tiny, like,

844
00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:54.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, ten centimeters. I'm sorry, I keep jumping between

845
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.039
<v Speaker 3>the two systems.

846
00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Fun and you and we just don't know how old

847
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:01.360
<v Speaker 2>they get, no, because nothing calcifies theer's no to there's

848
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:02.320
<v Speaker 2>such a mystery.

849
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:05.000
<v Speaker 3>And so that's one of those things that a lot

850
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:10.039
<v Speaker 3>of fish are indeterminate growers, right, Like they technically have

851
00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:14.559
<v Speaker 3>the potential to grow forever, right but in the deep sea,

852
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:18.519
<v Speaker 3>especially with such a strong defense mechanism like this line

853
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.159
<v Speaker 3>that they have, you know, yeah, they could they could

854
00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.880
<v Speaker 3>live decades, They could live over one hundred years. Who knows.

855
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:28.199
<v Speaker 2>They're such quiet badasses. Yeah, that's what I love about them.

856
00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:30.679
<v Speaker 2>We're just like, oh, I'm sorry, did you want to

857
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.719
<v Speaker 2>mess with me? Because it's just like, damn hagfitch. Can

858
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I ask you Patreon questions? Yes, for sure? Oh my gosh,

859
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 2>I got a lot of questions from listeners. That's good, Okay,

860
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:44.159
<v Speaker 2>So before we get to Patreon questions, a few words

861
00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:46.559
<v Speaker 2>from sponsors at the show. They make it possible for

862
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.079
<v Speaker 2>me to give a donation each week to a charity

863
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.039
<v Speaker 2>of the ologists choosing, and this week Tim asked that

864
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:55.079
<v Speaker 2>it go to his Canadian woodsy science home away from home,

865
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:59.159
<v Speaker 2>the Wildlife Research Station. And since its inception in nineteen

866
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:01.760
<v Speaker 2>forty four, the wild Life Research Station has been providing

867
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:06.199
<v Speaker 2>access and logistical support for university and government researchers. It's

868
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:10.519
<v Speaker 2>situated on Lake Saskatchewan in the Algonquin Provincial Park and

869
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:14.480
<v Speaker 2>operates as a non for profit organization. It's been instrumental

870
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:19.000
<v Speaker 2>in these really uniquely long running research projects on wildlife

871
00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:23.079
<v Speaker 2>from flies to small mammals and turtles and birds and

872
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:25.440
<v Speaker 2>more so. A link to that nonprofit will be in

873
00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:27.760
<v Speaker 2>the show notes and up at aliwar dot com slash

874
00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:31.000
<v Speaker 2>ologies slash Hagfishology. Okay, some things I.

875
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:34.599
<v Speaker 1>Like imagine the place where you can escape for a day,

876
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.920
<v Speaker 1>get immersed in a world of rooms, inspiration and expertise,

877
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:45.639
<v Speaker 1>where you can lay in luxury accommodations and kids cam

878
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:51.480
<v Speaker 1>fees from ninety five sets. Tickets are free to everyone

879
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:56.679
<v Speaker 1>and include all the attractions you've just imagined a day

880
00:52:56.840 --> 00:53:03.400
<v Speaker 1>out at the Kia Pikia the Wonderful every Day.

881
00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're back now. The first question was also asked

882
00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:10.320
<v Speaker 2>by patron Shaya Gadard. Sydney Brown wants to know where

883
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.840
<v Speaker 2>did hagfish get their name? And what's the biggest hagfish

884
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.159
<v Speaker 2>ever found? Oh, that's a good name. Are a good question.

885
00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:21.039
<v Speaker 3>Sorry. In terms of the word hagfish, I'm not sure,

886
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:24.159
<v Speaker 3>but obviously you know, if I were to take a

887
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:26.639
<v Speaker 3>more of a random gus at it, it has something

888
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:27.559
<v Speaker 3>to do with their looks.

889
00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:28.119
<v Speaker 4>Right.

890
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm just going to go ahead and gas So

891
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:34.960
<v Speaker 2>side note. Patron Carla Kennedy asked, are we sure they

892
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:39.119
<v Speaker 2>were supposed to be named hag and not gagfish? Typos happen?

893
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Shrug emoji? Wow, wow Carla? Where is the respect for

894
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:49.000
<v Speaker 2>a slimy jallous sausage with a tiny dick mustache? And

895
00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:51.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry I made everyone wait this far to hear

896
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the etymology of hagfish. But okay, so the term was

897
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:58.400
<v Speaker 2>first recorded in sixteen eleven and it just comes from

898
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.280
<v Speaker 2>their face because they thought they were not cute. Sometimes

899
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.159
<v Speaker 2>the most obvious answer is insultingly the right one. But

900
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:12.119
<v Speaker 2>though hag means technically now a repulsive old woman, according

901
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.559
<v Speaker 2>to the Dictionary, that word is derived from the word

902
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.719
<v Speaker 2>for which, which, given the magic spell it can cast

903
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.320
<v Speaker 2>in the form of a phlegm. Neet isn't so off base.

904
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:28.000
<v Speaker 2>And the reason why that word meant which that became

905
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:30.480
<v Speaker 2>the word hag is because it came from a term

906
00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:34.679
<v Speaker 2>for a hedge writer, as in a supernatural woman who

907
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:38.280
<v Speaker 2>rode the hedges between the safe, normal village and then

908
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:45.639
<v Speaker 2>the wild outer lands. So hagfish spellbinding, rule breaking, living

909
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:50.000
<v Speaker 2>in the darkness, and making alchemy of a whale carcass

910
00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:54.679
<v Speaker 2>turning it into magic nutrient. Pooh. Now, on the topic

911
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:58.960
<v Speaker 2>of colology and how women are judged by toxic beauty standards,

912
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:02.039
<v Speaker 2>a few people include Amber and Jonathan Mead, as well

913
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:07.760
<v Speaker 2>as Kelsey lebou Frinch, Gina Martinez, Megan Metcalf, Jessica Beard,

914
00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Amanda Blackburn, Hannah Leise, Kimberliefajaro, Katie Kelly Hanken, Dominica Deck,

915
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:17.320
<v Speaker 2>and Trent hop asked this next one, Amber and Jonathan

916
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:19.800
<v Speaker 2>Mead want to know are there any medical or cosmetic

917
00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:21.039
<v Speaker 2>uses for hagfish slime.

918
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:24.800
<v Speaker 3>I think there's definitely an interest in the cosmetic field

919
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:30.039
<v Speaker 3>as well as in the medical field, in the sense

920
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:33.519
<v Speaker 3>that it can maybe be used as a biological filter,

921
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:36.519
<v Speaker 3>right that you know, if it blocks the flow of

922
00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:40.280
<v Speaker 3>water and traps water, you can maybe use as an

923
00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:46.800
<v Speaker 3>actual filter material. There's interest in using it as a

924
00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:49.920
<v Speaker 3>food product as well as like an egg replacement. I've

925
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:54.800
<v Speaker 3>seen hagfish slime itself turn up in recipes really yeah.

926
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So I.

927
00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:59.320
<v Speaker 3>Think that there's people for a long time have been

928
00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:03.039
<v Speaker 3>looking to use it for different things. I think partially

929
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:06.360
<v Speaker 3>what's limited it is the availability of hagfish, like they're

930
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:13.599
<v Speaker 3>just not super common on land, and as well that

931
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:19.760
<v Speaker 3>it's difficult to store the slime, right, so the way

932
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:24.159
<v Speaker 3>that the hagfish stores it inside of their glands is

933
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:28.239
<v Speaker 3>not really well understood. We know the chemicals that are there,

934
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:32.280
<v Speaker 3>we know sort of the environmental conditions inside the gland,

935
00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:35.239
<v Speaker 3>but how they function is not really well known and

936
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.119
<v Speaker 3>we've had a hard time replicating it. So I think

937
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:42.559
<v Speaker 3>that's another one of the challenges to mainstream use of

938
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:46.519
<v Speaker 3>hagfish material is that you need to be able to maintain.

939
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:50.079
<v Speaker 3>It's really charismatic properties over time.

940
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:50.800
<v Speaker 2>You're one of the.

941
00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:53.480
<v Speaker 4>Most charismatic people I've ever met, right, And we see

942
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:59.159
<v Speaker 4>that it's reactivity to see water, it's the rate at

943
00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:02.440
<v Speaker 4>which it responds, and everything changes as we store it.

944
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh so, yeah, what happens if you have a mason

945
00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:05.719
<v Speaker 2>jar forul a hagfish line?

946
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:11.199
<v Speaker 3>It eventually if it's in water, it will collapse. The

947
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:17.800
<v Speaker 3>network does collapse down, and it essentially will somewhat dissolve away.

948
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:22.880
<v Speaker 3>The component is dissolvable. But we've never followed it over

949
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:27.159
<v Speaker 3>really long periods like days or weeks. Typically for most

950
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:29.519
<v Speaker 3>of our work, we're interested in the really really short

951
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.719
<v Speaker 3>timescale stuff. If we were to use hagfish line for

952
00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:36.239
<v Speaker 3>medical purposes or cosmetic or anything, we need to either

953
00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:38.840
<v Speaker 3>figure out how to replicate it or how to store

954
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:40.599
<v Speaker 3>it in really meaningful ways.

955
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:42.719
<v Speaker 2>I feel like if you had a sheet mask that

956
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:47.599
<v Speaker 2>was just hagfish line, that would be hydrating as hell.

957
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine just to just hagfish to lay on

958
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:54.480
<v Speaker 2>your face? Just like I mean, that's essentially what a

959
00:57:54.519 --> 00:57:58.400
<v Speaker 2>sheet mask is. Colin Elijah wants to know where do

960
00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.719
<v Speaker 2>they fall in the food chain? You know, do other

961
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:03.960
<v Speaker 2>animals want to even eat something that slimy? But yeah,

962
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:08.000
<v Speaker 2>but if you're a mammal, a sea mammal, you can

963
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:10.920
<v Speaker 2>chomp on it. Yeah, But where do they fall in

964
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:11.639
<v Speaker 2>the food chain?

965
00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:16.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would say yeah, I wouldn't say that they

966
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:19.880
<v Speaker 3>form the bottom of the food chain, but I wouldn't

967
00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:24.599
<v Speaker 3>say that they're necessarily the top either. You know, there's

968
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:28.280
<v Speaker 3>a lot of really active predators even in the deep,

969
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:32.360
<v Speaker 3>Like there's big active shark species, there's big fish species

970
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:37.639
<v Speaker 3>that would probably be the dominant predator down there. But

971
00:58:38.199 --> 00:58:42.239
<v Speaker 3>I think that because they have such a strong defense mechanism,

972
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:45.280
<v Speaker 3>which could also be viewed as sort of a competitive thing.

973
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:48.519
<v Speaker 3>So as they're feeding at a carcass, they do release

974
00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:51.800
<v Speaker 3>bits of slime, right, And that's sort of one of

975
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:54.519
<v Speaker 3>my ideas too, is whether or not they actually use

976
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.840
<v Speaker 3>it to compete around a carcass. Right, So hagfish can

977
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:01.800
<v Speaker 3>all deal with the slime, but nothing else can, right.

978
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:05.599
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, in terms of where they fall, like they

979
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:08.800
<v Speaker 3>are preyed upon, but they're also a predator, So I

980
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:10.199
<v Speaker 3>think they're going to be somewhere.

981
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:12.239
<v Speaker 2>In the middle in terms of the you know, the

982
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:16.480
<v Speaker 2>zones of animals out there, Oh, I love that they're

983
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:19.880
<v Speaker 2>like hagfish party only. Okay, So chrisper asked this next one,

984
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:25.000
<v Speaker 2>but so did Jack Aman and Iron, Lannie Bauer, Sonya Karpelovich,

985
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:30.559
<v Speaker 2>Bonnie Joyce, Amelia Blakeman, Kitty Halberson, Von Spedsen, Zoe Jane

986
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Haley Everson, Erica ho Honkah, Danny Q, and Selina. They

987
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:39.559
<v Speaker 2>all ask some form of this hungry question. Chris Burer

988
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.960
<v Speaker 2>wants to know will hagfish sushi ever trend?

989
00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:47.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh? Well, hagfish are eaten in Korea and probably elsewhere

990
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:52.079
<v Speaker 3>in Southeast Asia. They're barbecued typically.

991
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, have you ever eaten it? I have never

992
00:59:55.119 --> 00:59:55.599
<v Speaker 2>eaten it.

993
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:59.440
<v Speaker 3>I think the more time you spend with stuff, the

994
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:03.280
<v Speaker 3>more you sense its distinct smell, and the more that

995
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:05.239
<v Speaker 3>it would probably taste like they smell.

996
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Okay. Eric Bahanca wants to know have you ever tried

997
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:11.440
<v Speaker 2>eating their slime?

998
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:16.400
<v Speaker 3>No? But I know people have and that it is

999
01:00:16.599 --> 01:00:20.559
<v Speaker 3>a part of recipes egg replacement. But again, I don't

1000
01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:22.920
<v Speaker 3>think the slime would taste like much. It probably tastes

1001
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:23.559
<v Speaker 3>like seawater.

1002
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Seawater Does it do the same thing in fresh water

1003
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:28.960
<v Speaker 2>less vigorously? Really?

1004
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:29.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1005
01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:32.159
<v Speaker 2>So what is it about the salinity that activates those threads.

1006
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:34.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's one of the things that we're trying to

1007
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:38.519
<v Speaker 3>figure out, like whether it's active exchanges that go on

1008
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:45.360
<v Speaker 3>with ions associated with the or the threads, whether it's

1009
01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:48.440
<v Speaker 3>a temperature related thing that the slime tends to set

1010
01:00:48.519 --> 01:00:50.880
<v Speaker 3>up better in cold water than warm water.

1011
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.679
<v Speaker 2>So like, it's a fairly it's a fairly complex problem,

1012
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:56.119
<v Speaker 2>I guess.

1013
01:00:56.119 --> 01:00:57.679
<v Speaker 3>So we've been going at it from a lot of

1014
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:01.400
<v Speaker 3>different angles, and you know, we have a fairly good

1015
01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:05.400
<v Speaker 3>idea of the parameters that result in good slime formation,

1016
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:08.599
<v Speaker 3>but the actual chemical.

1017
01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:11.239
<v Speaker 2>Basis for it all is still out there, which is

1018
01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:13.920
<v Speaker 2>so exciting. Is it exciting to be the forefront of

1019
01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:15.800
<v Speaker 2>this research? Super interesting.

1020
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:19.199
<v Speaker 3>That's everything we do day to day, for the most part,

1021
01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:21.920
<v Speaker 3>has never been done, so that gets me excited.

1022
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, heads up, spoiler alert. This next question may deal

1023
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:29.000
<v Speaker 2>with non Newtonian fluids. So I thought i'd drop a

1024
01:01:29.079 --> 01:01:32.599
<v Speaker 2>death here now, and I'm going to read this part

1025
01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:35.719
<v Speaker 2>right off of Wikipedia because I didn't want to get

1026
01:01:35.719 --> 01:01:38.360
<v Speaker 2>it wrong. But a non Newtonian fluid is a fluid

1027
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:42.360
<v Speaker 2>that does not follow Newton's law of viscosity. It says,

1028
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 2>in non Newtonian fluids, viscosity can change when under force

1029
01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:49.400
<v Speaker 2>to be either more liquid or it can be more solid.

1030
01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:53.159
<v Speaker 2>So ketchup, for example, becomes runnier when it's shaken. Thus,

1031
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:55.719
<v Speaker 2>ketchup is a non Newtonian fluid. I just learned that

1032
01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:00.599
<v Speaker 2>right now. It also says custard, honey, toothpaste, paint, blood,

1033
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:04.239
<v Speaker 2>and shampoo are all non Newtonian fluids. It also sounds

1034
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:07.320
<v Speaker 2>like just a delicious smoothie. Just toss them all in

1035
01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:09.840
<v Speaker 2>a blender. Sarah wants to know. Is hagfish slime a

1036
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:12.679
<v Speaker 2>solid or liquid? Is it a non Newtonian fluid?

1037
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:18.880
<v Speaker 3>It is a non Newtonian fluid, really, so yeah, hagfish

1038
01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:25.000
<v Speaker 3>slime is composed. It does have solid components to it.

1039
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:29.599
<v Speaker 3>But because it essentially we call it viscous entrapment, So

1040
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:33.519
<v Speaker 3>hagfish lime doesn't bind to water at all, right, It

1041
01:02:33.639 --> 01:02:38.239
<v Speaker 3>essentially creates channels that are really narrow that work on

1042
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:41.800
<v Speaker 3>the surface tension of water to trap it and slow

1043
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:45.800
<v Speaker 3>its flow. Right, So it essentially slows water flow to

1044
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.760
<v Speaker 3>a point that it creates the slime. But if you

1045
01:02:49.880 --> 01:02:53.239
<v Speaker 3>hold that slime out of water, all that water will

1046
01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:56.239
<v Speaker 3>drip out eventually. Wow, and you'll be laughed with nothing

1047
01:02:56.280 --> 01:02:57.840
<v Speaker 3>but a bit of fiber.

1048
01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. So it's kind of like a really

1049
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:03.440
<v Speaker 2>good net for water exactly right, which is sort of

1050
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:06.559
<v Speaker 2>why earlier I say it'd be interesting to apply it to,

1051
01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:07.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, something like an.

1052
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:11.840
<v Speaker 3>Oil spill and see how it worked at mopping up

1053
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.199
<v Speaker 3>the water with the oil component in it.

1054
01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, that's so fascinating. Lara Taffer wants to

1055
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:22.239
<v Speaker 2>know do hagfish have any close relatives to any land

1056
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 2>animals land animals?

1057
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:29.239
<v Speaker 3>I don't think so. Their closest relative that's still living

1058
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:33.920
<v Speaker 3>is the lamp prey, right, So okay, yeah, so they're

1059
01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:37.519
<v Speaker 3>sort of grouped together with hagfish because they're a jawless

1060
01:03:37.760 --> 01:03:40.840
<v Speaker 3>creature that you know, primitive eel like body.

1061
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:45.079
<v Speaker 2>But I think there's now, you know.

1062
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:49.760
<v Speaker 3>The jury's out about whether or not hagfish actually started

1063
01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:54.039
<v Speaker 3>out much more vertebrate like and then lost those vertebrate

1064
01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:54.840
<v Speaker 3>like features.

1065
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Wow. Right, So that what we're seeing.

1066
01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:02.800
<v Speaker 3>Is essentially something that it was more complex that actually

1067
01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:05.960
<v Speaker 3>somewhat simplified in time, So.

1068
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 2>They may have just gone on back.

1069
01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:10.360
<v Speaker 3>That's fascinating.

1070
01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:15.519
<v Speaker 2>Let's see. Suki Holly wants to know. Since hagfishes are

1071
01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:17.360
<v Speaker 2>creatures in the deep, did they get the bends when

1072
01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:19.519
<v Speaker 2>scientists bring them up to the lab to study.

1073
01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:24.360
<v Speaker 3>It's a super good question. So a lot of hagfish

1074
01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:26.880
<v Speaker 3>or sorry, a lot of fish have what's called an

1075
01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:33.519
<v Speaker 3>air bladder, which actually fills with air to provide buoyancy

1076
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:36.039
<v Speaker 3>for them, so they can fill it and empty it

1077
01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:38.840
<v Speaker 3>to adjust how you know where they are in the

1078
01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:43.480
<v Speaker 3>water column. Hagfish don't have an air bladder, so when

1079
01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:47.000
<v Speaker 3>we bring them up, they're actually totally fine, right, So

1080
01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:50.079
<v Speaker 3>a lot of fish. Yeah, it's a good question because

1081
01:04:50.119 --> 01:04:52.239
<v Speaker 3>most fish that you would bring up from that depth,

1082
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:55.519
<v Speaker 3>they're dead by the time they hit the surface because

1083
01:04:55.559 --> 01:04:59.760
<v Speaker 3>their swim bladder actually ruptures and like causes severe damage

1084
01:04:59.800 --> 01:05:03.760
<v Speaker 3>to fish itself. Hagfish don't have that problem, which is

1085
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:06.880
<v Speaker 3>one of the reasons we can even study them, right,

1086
01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:09.320
<v Speaker 3>because we'd have a really hard time bringing them up.

1087
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:15.360
<v Speaker 3>Hagfish have seemingly no problem coming to you ambient pressure

1088
01:05:15.400 --> 01:05:16.159
<v Speaker 3>at the surface.

1089
01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:21.679
<v Speaker 2>There's such slimy badasses. Yeah, I'm voning for hagfish for president.

1090
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Is that weird? I'm like so in awe of them.

1091
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:29.599
<v Speaker 2>I feel like hagfish is gonna absolutely save the world. Okay,

1092
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna ask one more question from a patron and

1093
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.199
<v Speaker 2>then we'll wrap up. Travis Damella wants to know what

1094
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:36.760
<v Speaker 2>are their social lives, like, do they relate to one another?

1095
01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:40.039
<v Speaker 2>And where do they sleep? I think that's another great question.

1096
01:05:40.280 --> 01:05:44.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think hagfish have a very vibrant social life.

1097
01:05:44.079 --> 01:05:47.760
<v Speaker 3>I got lots. I think that they We see them

1098
01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:51.800
<v Speaker 3>living in burrows together. We don't know about their relationship

1099
01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:56.159
<v Speaker 3>to each other, but they seem to like to pack together.

1100
01:05:56.360 --> 01:06:01.320
<v Speaker 3>They do like to be together in congregations. You know,

1101
01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:06.159
<v Speaker 3>where you find one hagfish, you find more. Right, So

1102
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:08.920
<v Speaker 3>whether or not that has to do with the environment

1103
01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:12.039
<v Speaker 3>being really conducive to hagfish or whether or not they

1104
01:06:12.079 --> 01:06:16.239
<v Speaker 3>actually seek out a social group, we don't know. We're

1105
01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:20.440
<v Speaker 3>actually working on at least filming them in captivity to

1106
01:06:20.519 --> 01:06:24.119
<v Speaker 3>better understand how they interact with each other. You know,

1107
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:28.280
<v Speaker 3>over the days and weeks of you know, circling around

1108
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:31.719
<v Speaker 3>these tanks and with very limited hiding spots. Right, we

1109
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:35.400
<v Speaker 3>provide them with habitat to hide in, but we're interested

1110
01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:39.119
<v Speaker 3>in how they maybe compete for that habitat, Like, are

1111
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:43.880
<v Speaker 3>there dominant hagfish and subordinate hagfish or are they sort

1112
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:46.920
<v Speaker 3>of devoid of that altogether, right, which is also a

1113
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:51.599
<v Speaker 3>possibility that you know, the whole competition that we see

1114
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.159
<v Speaker 3>in a lot of other animals maybe such an energy

1115
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:56.920
<v Speaker 3>waster for a hagfish that they just don't do it.

1116
01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just maybe they don't care. Yeah, maybe he fish,

1117
01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:05.400
<v Speaker 2>you're friendly. So there is there a need for more

1118
01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:06.760
<v Speaker 2>hag phishologists.

1119
01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:11.159
<v Speaker 3>I think there's a need for a lot more people

1120
01:07:11.559 --> 01:07:13.880
<v Speaker 3>to study what's happening in the oceans.

1121
01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:14.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1122
01:07:14.159 --> 01:07:16.719
<v Speaker 3>I think it's one of the you know, in many

1123
01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:21.480
<v Speaker 3>ways that Antarctica and space or these like crazy frontiers, right,

1124
01:07:21.559 --> 01:07:23.639
<v Speaker 3>I think the deep ocean is one of the last

1125
01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:29.199
<v Speaker 3>unexplored frontiers on the planet almost you know a lot

1126
01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 3>of these missions that have gone down to video and

1127
01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:36.519
<v Speaker 3>find new species. Almost every time they deploy these ROVs

1128
01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:39.960
<v Speaker 3>or deep sea submersibles, they find new species. I know

1129
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:43.400
<v Speaker 3>that we get very excited when undergraduates come into the

1130
01:07:43.480 --> 01:07:45.039
<v Speaker 3>lab and we get to introduce them to.

1131
01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Hagg fision, you know, spread the wonder for sure.

1132
01:07:47.679 --> 01:07:49.719
<v Speaker 3>But I think that it is one of those things

1133
01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:56.840
<v Speaker 3>that most biologists that ever come across them are permanently interested, right,

1134
01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:59.400
<v Speaker 3>they never lose their interests. And like we've seen this

1135
01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:03.000
<v Speaker 3>with people that are now in their nineties that love

1136
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:06.440
<v Speaker 3>talking hagfish because they maybe worked with them for one year,

1137
01:08:07.159 --> 01:08:09.719
<v Speaker 3>you know, decades and decades and decades ago, but it

1138
01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:11.480
<v Speaker 3>was one of the most interesting things they ever did.

1139
01:08:11.719 --> 01:08:14.639
<v Speaker 2>You just get caught in a slimy web of love

1140
01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:17.640
<v Speaker 2>for hagfit. Yeah, all the puns.

1141
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:19.039
<v Speaker 1>Now.

1142
01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:21.479
<v Speaker 2>Is there anything I always asked us at the very end,

1143
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:24.880
<v Speaker 2>is there something about your job that sucks, something that

1144
01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:29.479
<v Speaker 2>frustrates you? What's the worst part about your job or hagfish? Oh?

1145
01:08:29.880 --> 01:08:33.000
<v Speaker 3>I think nothing wrong with the hagfish. But I think

1146
01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:39.000
<v Speaker 3>in terms of science in general, there's a lot of failure, right, Like,

1147
01:08:39.199 --> 01:08:44.159
<v Speaker 3>when you're doing projects, you're doing experiments in science, you

1148
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:47.359
<v Speaker 3>never know what's right. You only ever find out what's

1149
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:52.760
<v Speaker 3>likely wrong. Right, So I think that would be the

1150
01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:56.560
<v Speaker 3>most frustrating thing is that you have to you know,

1151
01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:58.960
<v Speaker 3>have pretty thick skin in a way, I guess to

1152
01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:03.199
<v Speaker 3>deal with, you know, especially going up against questions or

1153
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:08.520
<v Speaker 3>developing experiments and apparatus that have maybe never been used

1154
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:12.680
<v Speaker 3>or designed before. Right, Like, there's no hagfish one oh

1155
01:09:12.680 --> 01:09:15.600
<v Speaker 3>one book that we can really turn to to figure

1156
01:09:15.640 --> 01:09:18.520
<v Speaker 3>some stuff out, right, So you know, there's a good

1157
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:21.319
<v Speaker 3>body of literature on hagfish. We do have what we

1158
01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:24.760
<v Speaker 3>consider the hagfish Bible, right, really what is it? It's

1159
01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:28.079
<v Speaker 3>called the Biology of Hagfish and there's been I think

1160
01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:29.720
<v Speaker 3>three iterations of it.

1161
01:09:29.840 --> 01:09:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Now, Yeah, you have like a copy in your glove compartment. Yeah,

1162
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:35.560
<v Speaker 2>I got one here for you now.

1163
01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:38.680
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

1164
01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:43.159
<v Speaker 2>I texted him later and asked, what was the hagfish Bible,

1165
01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and he said, there are two. There's the Biology of

1166
01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Hagfish and Hagfish Biology. I hope the authors are friends.

1167
01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:53.399
<v Speaker 3>I'd say that's it, but I think that's part of

1168
01:09:53.399 --> 01:09:56.960
<v Speaker 3>the fun too. I'd say that the primary frustration is

1169
01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:58.319
<v Speaker 3>also the primary driver.

1170
01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Is your favorite thing about your job? What's your favoriteing

1171
01:10:01.960 --> 01:10:03.880
<v Speaker 2>about hagfish or your job or what you do? I

1172
01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:05.439
<v Speaker 2>think that's it's discovery.

1173
01:10:05.479 --> 01:10:07.960
<v Speaker 3>I think it's, like you're saying earlier, it's being on

1174
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:09.479
<v Speaker 3>the forefront of something.

1175
01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:13.720
<v Speaker 2>It's being like literally looking into.

1176
01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:17.640
<v Speaker 3>The abyss, like how did natural selection act upon this?

1177
01:10:19.239 --> 01:10:22.319
<v Speaker 3>What does this mean in terms of how hagfish relate

1178
01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:25.199
<v Speaker 3>to each other? How did they relate to vertebrates and

1179
01:10:25.279 --> 01:10:28.640
<v Speaker 3>other fish? And I think that that's something that just

1180
01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:33.920
<v Speaker 3>keeps us endlessly intrigued because you know, there's more unanswered

1181
01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:36.640
<v Speaker 3>questions and answered questions. And I think that's good for

1182
01:10:36.840 --> 01:10:39.960
<v Speaker 3>any scientific field, right, Like you want to think you

1183
01:10:40.039 --> 01:10:42.560
<v Speaker 3>have a good idea of what's going on, but the

1184
01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:43.840
<v Speaker 3>more you know, the more you know.

1185
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:46.000
<v Speaker 2>You don't know. And I think that's a good problem

1186
01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:48.720
<v Speaker 2>that scientists have. M and so that keeps you going

1187
01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:51.199
<v Speaker 2>a lot. Oh yeah, for sure. Oh great, Oh, thank

1188
01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:54.279
<v Speaker 2>you so much for doing this. I'm just so charmed

1189
01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:59.039
<v Speaker 2>by hagfish. It's awesome. So remember to ask smart people,

1190
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:03.239
<v Speaker 2>real stupid and gross questions, because how else in the

1191
01:11:03.239 --> 01:11:07.720
<v Speaker 2>world would you discover that hagfishes are handsome drifters and

1192
01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:11.439
<v Speaker 2>seventeenth century witches who live in a timeshare with Bigfoot

1193
01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:14.479
<v Speaker 2>and the Holy Grail, and they help impotent men have

1194
01:11:14.600 --> 01:11:17.640
<v Speaker 2>long awaited children, and they deserve our respect. Some of

1195
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:20.279
<v Speaker 2>those might not be true, but they are an inspiration

1196
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:24.239
<v Speaker 2>for military defense. They could change the way we use fibers.

1197
01:11:24.399 --> 01:11:28.560
<v Speaker 2>They're pretty chill, and yes, they deserve our respect. Now,

1198
01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:31.840
<v Speaker 2>Tim Wengert is not on social media. God bless this

1199
01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:36.359
<v Speaker 2>Canadian hagfishologist, but you can google the Douglas Fudge Lab

1200
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:39.640
<v Speaker 2>at Chapman University to learn more about what they're researching.

1201
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:44.399
<v Speaker 2>So many great resources. We are ologies on Twitter and Instagram.

1202
01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm Ali Ward with one l on both and more

1203
01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:50.520
<v Speaker 2>links from the show notes and they're up at aliward

1204
01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:55.279
<v Speaker 2>dot com slash ologies slash Hagfishology. You can get merch

1205
01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:58.720
<v Speaker 2>through that site or through ologies merch dot com. Thank

1206
01:11:58.760 --> 01:12:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you Shannon felt This and Bunnie Much for managing all that.

1207
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Thank you Hannah Liippo and Aaron Tlbert for adminting the

1208
01:12:04.760 --> 01:12:08.720
<v Speaker 2>wonderful Facebook group. To interns Harry Kim and Caleb Patten,

1209
01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:13.079
<v Speaker 2>to Jared's Sleeper of Mind Jam Media for assistant editing,

1210
01:12:13.239 --> 01:12:17.039
<v Speaker 2>and of course to the mysterious slime Witch Stephen Ray Morris,

1211
01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:19.880
<v Speaker 2>who edits all the pieces together and also hosts the

1212
01:12:19.960 --> 01:12:23.159
<v Speaker 2>kiddie podcast The per Cast and the dino centric one

1213
01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:26.159
<v Speaker 2>see Jurassic Right and The theme song was written by

1214
01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:29.199
<v Speaker 2>Nick Thorburn of the band Islands. He also did the

1215
01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:32.560
<v Speaker 2>theme song for Serial Fun Trivia also before the Secret,

1216
01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:34.399
<v Speaker 2>I want to say a quick belated happy birthday to

1217
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:37.840
<v Speaker 2>my dear friend Micah. Also happy birthday to Stephen Ray Morris,

1218
01:12:37.960 --> 01:12:41.359
<v Speaker 2>whose birthday is on Wednesday of this week. Happy birthday

1219
01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:44.800
<v Speaker 2>to Catherine Burns who has a birthday this week. Also

1220
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>to my niece Olivia. Happy birthday to boob Haver bra buyer,

1221
01:12:49.119 --> 01:12:51.880
<v Speaker 2>good friend Colleen whose birthday is this week. So many

1222
01:12:51.920 --> 01:12:55.039
<v Speaker 2>April birthdays. I love you all. If you stick around

1223
01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:57.079
<v Speaker 2>until the end of the episode, do you know I

1224
01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>tell you a secret? And this one it's pretty straight forward,

1225
01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:05.399
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty topical. The reason that I took the lab

1226
01:13:05.439 --> 01:13:07.840
<v Speaker 2>tour and you didn't hear it is because there was

1227
01:13:08.479 --> 01:13:12.560
<v Speaker 2>one button that I accidentally pressed on my zoom and

1228
01:13:12.600 --> 01:13:15.800
<v Speaker 2>it switched over the mics so that the onboard mics

1229
01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:19.960
<v Speaker 2>weren't picking anything up, so it was just thirty two

1230
01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:24.800
<v Speaker 2>minutes of static boom. I'm sorry, bummer. Great episode anyway.

1231
01:13:25.439 --> 01:13:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Another secret is that I had a dream that I

1232
01:13:27.520 --> 01:13:32.079
<v Speaker 2>had a live stream and no one showed up to

1233
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:35.960
<v Speaker 2>watch it, and I was wearing like dirty, grease spotted

1234
01:13:36.399 --> 01:13:39.600
<v Speaker 2>leggings that were made by Ferrari and I was like, oh,

1235
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:42.119
<v Speaker 2>these are my good leggings. I really messed these up. Anyway,

1236
01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:44.279
<v Speaker 2>no one watched my live stream and I thought, ward,

1237
01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:47.920
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing? Nobody wants this stuff? Anyway, I

1238
01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:51.960
<v Speaker 2>woke up and was like, well, at least Ferrari doesn't

1239
01:13:52.000 --> 01:14:07.079
<v Speaker 2>make leggings, okay for bye Pacodermatollege, homeology, crypto zoology, lithology, teminology, meteorology, stology, anthology, ceriologyology.

1240
01:14:13.880 --> 01:14:16.359
<v Speaker 2>So these are actually hagfish nicknamed slime Eli get that

1241
01:14:16.439 --> 01:14:18.560
<v Speaker 2>nickname because you can see here they secrete slime whenever

1242
01:14:18.560 --> 01:14:21.079
<v Speaker 2>they runner stress, making the cleanup that much more difficult.