WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:12.119 Special Operations, Colbert, Oh, SPI and I The Team House 2 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:17.960 with your host Jack Murphy and David Bark. 3 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:26.320 Everybody, Welcome to episode three sixty six of The Teamhouse. 4 00:00:26.440 --> 00:00:27.199 I'm Dave Park. 5 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:33.159 You're with Jack Murphy, and tonight our guest is Dick Thompson, 6 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:36.840 retired Lieutenant Carl who wrote a couple of books on 7 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.119 MacB Soag. The first one is Soag code named Dynamite. 8 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:47.439 The one, Oh, the team Leader's story basically reads like 9 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:50.840 a journal. I'm amazed, Like, I'm amazed at how detailed 10 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.200 it is. It reads like an action novel too. It's 11 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:55.799 a lot of great stuff. And one of the things 12 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:57.840 I really appreciated was like at the end of each 13 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:00.840 chapter you have kind of a less and learned and 14 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:01.439 everything like that. 15 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:03.600 So, thank you so much for joining us to night. 16 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:08.000 Did thank you honored to be here. 17 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:09.400 Yeah. 18 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:14.680 So, you know, like the books on back, the book 19 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:17.319 focused on macbe Sag and you know, obviously that was 20 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:19.159 one of the highlights of your career, but you had 21 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:24.280 a twenty one year career. But before that, when you 22 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:28.760 were knee high little Dickey Toms and running around the neighborhood. 23 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.040 Tell us your origin story, how did you grow up 24 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:32.879 and what led you to the military. 25 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:44.000 I grew up in basically a military family. My mother's 26 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:50.239 five brothers were all deployed to in World War Two 27 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.599 at the same time, and my father was also deployed, 28 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:58.560 so they had everybody over there in World War Two. 29 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.519 After that was over, my father was also called back 30 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.879 in to go to Korea. So I had a lot 31 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:13.039 of exposure as a small kid growing up and hearing 32 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:19.000 the family talk about war, and I became very curious, 33 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:20.400 so I asked a lot of questions. 34 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.280 You know, what is the squad, what is the platoon? 35 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.439 What do they do? How did they work? So I 36 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:31.840 was always asking questions about it. I spent a lot 37 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:36.680 of time living at my grandparents' house on my mother's 38 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:42.680 side while my father was gone, So I grew up 39 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:45.400 kind of on a farm, but you know, a lot 40 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.800 of woods. I had an opportunity to go out and 41 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.680 spend a lot of time, you know, in an environment 42 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:56.479 like that. When my father got back and we moved 43 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.039 to a small farm, and I was spend hours and 44 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:05.840 hours in the woods alone as well. You know, I 45 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:10.479 have a six year old, seven year old kid watching animals, 46 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.159 tracking animals, trying to figure out how can I be invisible? 47 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:17.639 Hey, what's up, guys? I want to thank our sponsor 48 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:21.919 PIA VPN. That's Private Internet Access. You guys, have ever 49 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.560 been at a coffee shop connected to their Wi Fi 50 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.800 and wonder just how secure you are? Turns out you're 51 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:28.960 not very secure at all. It's like sending a private 52 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.120 text message to a group chat. 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That's two dollars 84 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.319 and three cents a month, and there's a thirty day 85 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:10.240 money back guarantee, so there's no risk at all. Protect 86 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.800 your life. And thank you for supporting the show to 87 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.079 all the fans out there, and thank you PIAVPN for 88 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.600 supporting the show as well, thanks, guys, appreciate it. 89 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.600 How can I walk up on a deer? How close 90 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.399 can I get to them? What do their tracks look like? 91 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:29.079 How do they behave? So I was learning the field 92 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:33.879 craft like that. So I got a little older. I 93 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.319 had a cousin, Carl, who would my age, who would 94 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:40.920 come over and we'd go out in the woods and 95 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:45.560 play army camp in the woods at night. Eventually we 96 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.160 got to the point where I had a bb gun. 97 00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:52.519 We would shoot birds, cook them over or fire and 98 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.319 do the kinds of things. Because we've heard about rangers. 99 00:05:57.319 --> 00:05:59.720 We'd do the kinds of things that we thought rangers did. 100 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:11.079 And so I formed a ranger company. And I formed 101 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.680 a ranger company, started out with myself and cousin Carl, 102 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.319 brought in some other cousins, and expanded out beyond that 103 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.360 a little, and then eventually brought in some people who 104 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:27.519 were not related. But you know, I became General Thompson, 105 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.120 uh and we had had our arranger company. I still 106 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:35.319 have that log book today. You know, a lot of 107 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:40.720 the writing has faded, but I had people's names in it. 108 00:06:40.680 --> 00:06:45.800 It had the one court martial that we conducted. I 109 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:49.959 was a non family member, and we had we had 110 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:50.480 to let. 111 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.680 Him go, so we court martialed him and he left. 112 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:58.800 But we saw Darby's Rangers, the movie that got us 113 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:03.120 all fired up even more so. And I used to 114 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:09.319 to hunt and fish. I grew up, you know, firing weapons, 115 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:16.360 so I was pretty good at shooting and hunting, and 116 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:18.759 you know, just kind of got into that. And then 117 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:23.759 when I was thirteen, I was sabotaged by Santa Claus. 118 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:28.519 He brought me a chemistry set and I used to 119 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:34.160 watch Shock Theater and these other monster movies and things. 120 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:39.759 So when I got the chemistry set, I started doing 121 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:44.160 things like trying to swap brains between a bird and 122 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:51.839 a frog. And at that time, if you if your 123 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.240 parents or mother would go with you to the drug 124 00:07:56.279 --> 00:08:00.319 store the pharmacy, it was amazing what they were sell 125 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.160 you know. So I had syringes, I had all kinds 126 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:07.959 of things that I got from the drug store, and 127 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.120 kind of grew up with a laboratory out of the barn. 128 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:17.519 But I hadn't forgotten the Rangers, and I got to 129 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.800 ended up with a scholarship to the University of South Carolina. 130 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:22.800 Take real quick, I want to stop you, because there 131 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:24.839 was something in your book you talked about your very 132 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:29.000 first macbe sag instructor in the in the barn there. 133 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:30.759 Do you do you want to tell us about that? 134 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:36.399 Yeah, when I was you know, I was was you know, 135 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:41.639 about six, I guess or seven, somewhere around that age. 136 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:44.440 And and the way our house was was set up. 137 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.600 There was a road, a dirt road that came from 138 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:52.679 the highway, came right through the middle of our property, 139 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:58.720 uh and separated our house from the barn. And you know, 140 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.480 we didn't have running water, so we got water out 141 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:06.279 of a well. We didn't have indoor toilets or bathrooms. 142 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.360 We had an outhouse, but it was on the other 143 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.120 side of the road where the barn was, and my 144 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:19.799 father bought a big turkey. In fact, when we were 145 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:24.480 standing face to face, we were pretty well looking at 146 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:28.840 each other's eyes, and he was very aggressive. He didn't 147 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:32.279 want anybody on what he called his side of the road. 148 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.440 So when I needed to go to the bathroom, I 149 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.320 had to try to get into the outhouse before he 150 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.519 could attack me. As he would see me, come running 151 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.039 at me, jump up on me, knock me down, and 152 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:53.080 you know, so I complained to my father about that, 153 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.000 and he told me he said, you know, he knows 154 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.360 you're afraid of him. You've got to let him know 155 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.200 you're not afraid. I said, well, I am afraid of 156 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:05.080 the joker. Knocked me down, affected me. And he said, 157 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.039 you got to let him know you on that side 158 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.399 of the road too. And I said, he's bigger and 159 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.320 stronger and faster than me. He said, but you're smarter. 160 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.039 Figure out how to out smarting. So that was kind 161 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.799 of the beginning of my special Operations train. How can 162 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:30.039 I navigate and get to the outhouse and then make 163 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.320 it back across the road without him knocking me down? 164 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:38.519 And I finally decided I could throw rocks at him, 165 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.600 as you know, hold him back with rocks. I ended 166 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.320 up with a sling shot, shoot him with a sling shot, 167 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.600 but all kinds. 168 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.759 Of E and E trying to get him around him. 169 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:57.799 Then pay all finally came at Thanksgiving, he was invited 170 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:01.759 for Thanksgiving dinner. Didn't have to worry about him anymore. 171 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.799 But it really taught me a lot about how do 172 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:08.799 you how do you hide? How do you go from 173 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.840 cover and conceilment from one place to another and you know, 174 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.039 get to the house and then get back. 175 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:22.679 Yeah, a lot so, yeah, thanks, So I'm sorry for 176 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:25.279 interrupting you. So you go to college, and you're going 177 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.519 to college for chemical engineering. 178 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:31.039 Correct, well, for chemistry. 179 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:31.919 Chemistry. 180 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:36.240 Intent was to be a guilt a doctor in chemistry, 181 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:43.879 be a research chemist. And at that time, every day, 182 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:48.960 at five o'clock in the evening, the national news would 183 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.559 come on and there'd always be a segment about what 184 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:57.000 was going on in Vietnam that that day, and you know, 185 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.279 they they kind of made it sound like we were 186 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.360 really winning and it probably wasn't going to last much longer. 187 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:11.440 And I, in my mind, I thought it's going to 188 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.120 end before I have a chance to get there. So 189 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.240 I told my parents I was going to take a 190 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:24.600 break in school, uh, enlist in the army and go 191 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:27.919 in go to Vietnam, come back, and then finish school. 192 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.720 My mother was not happy with that. My father thought 193 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:36.519 it was pretty cool. But so I took a break 194 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:38.320 and enlisted in the army. 195 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:40.840 And you very quick. 196 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:44.559 I'm sorry, but when you so, when you went to 197 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.679 go enlist, you actually went to the You were headed 198 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:47.879 to the marine though right. 199 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.840 The Marine's office, the recruiting office, and army they were 200 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.759 side by side a building there in town but yeah, 201 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.440 because you saw the Marines on TV all the time. 202 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.639 I mean, that's that's all you heard about. The Army 203 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:07.440 was there and they were doing something, you know. But 204 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:12.159 the Marines, it's like every other Marine's got a camera 205 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:17.799 or something, and you know, they publish everything, excuse me. 206 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.240 And so I sounded like they were the ones who 207 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.960 were getting something done. 208 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:28.960 So I thought about them. But after I talked to them, 209 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:30.039 I went in the. 210 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:35.440 Army recruiters and said, you know, what do you got 211 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.600 and they talked me into going into the Army rather 212 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:42.399 than the Marines. 213 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.120 Yeah, and you originally thought that you might be a chemical, 214 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:50.840 especially a chemical. 215 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:56.879 Well, they had said, the Army recruiters had said, you know, 216 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:00.840 you scored really high on all these tests and we 217 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:05.720 can get you in the Army Chemical Corps. And I said, well, 218 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.399 I mean that might be cool to make all these 219 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:12.559 chemical weapons and different things, you know. 220 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.720 So I went into Army and thinking about that. 221 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:22.279 And then my first night I dant at Fort Faxon, 222 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.159 went to sleep in bunk bed and you know, fifty 223 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:32.720 other guys in the air and about three point thirty 224 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:34.879 in the morning, all the lights come on. 225 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:36.320 There's somebody yelling. 226 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.799 Screaming and hollering, get out, get out in front of 227 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:42.840 your bunk. And I guess the people at the other 228 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.120 end of the room we're not moving fast enough. And 229 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.440 I heard the double you know, the bunk beds starting 230 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:52.600 to fall over on the floor because whoever this guy was, 231 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:53.799 he was just turning to. 232 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:55.200 Bunks over the people in him. 233 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.960 I got out and I was sending in front of 234 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.320 mine as he got where we were, and I noticed 235 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.600 he was I mean, he was my size, and I thought, wow, 236 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:11.080 he's not nearly as big as he sounds, but he's 237 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.240 a bad dude. And then I noticed, you know, that 238 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.799 black and gold Ranger tab on his shoulder, and I said, wow, 239 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:19.759 that's a Ranger. 240 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.440 That's what these guys are like. I mean, that's cool. 241 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:24.919 I like that. 242 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.919 And then you know, he took us to the mess 243 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:32.360 hall and we had to double time going over there, 244 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:35.840 and we start with a Jodie call about you know, 245 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:38.000 I want to be an airborne ranger. I want a 246 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:40.639 little life at danger, and I mean I was hooked 247 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.120 by the time I got to the messhall. I said, 248 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.320 I'm only going to be here three years. I might 249 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.919 as well be a ranger for three years. And you know, 250 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.879 turn some blunks over and have some you know, have 251 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.759 a good time. So I started thinking that way. 252 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:01.200 Yeah, so you you your Basic, you do a leadership 253 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:06.519 prep course which is like a like it was. They 254 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.360 don't have it now, but when they identify you as 255 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:13.000 somebody who's going to be a leader at ai T, 256 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:17.200 right the Advanced Infantry Training, you go to a leader 257 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.240 prep course and then you do your Infantry a T. 258 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.360 Now here's my question, because this is this isn't something 259 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:27.799 that happens really anymore. You did Basic and then ai T, 260 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:32.240 and then you rolled right into OCS, the Officer Candidate School. 261 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:33.360 How did that happen? 262 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:40.440 Well, the drill sergeant I had in Basic, you know, 263 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:45.440 he made me a platoon guide fairly quickly because I was, 264 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:51.440 you know, very fit. I learned quickly. And then I 265 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:56.320 discovered and one night that there was actually a manual 266 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:01.360 twenty two days five that had all the commands that 267 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.240 they were using as we marched around. 268 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:07.599 So I need didn't take me long. 269 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:09.119 At all to go through there and see what the 270 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:13.960 commands were, you know, the preparatory commands, the execution command 271 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.799 which put to give them on till the next morning 272 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:21.920 I started correcting the drill sergeants for a short period 273 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.079 of time. Then I did a lot of push outs 274 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:27.720 because I could see when they were doing it wrong. 275 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.759 I mean, if you give me the materials, I can 276 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:32.200 learn it. 277 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:33.400 Yeah. 278 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.920 So anyway, you made me the platoon guide. 279 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.799 And then you know, I had taken all kinds of 280 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.119 tests when I first came in and my drill sergeant 281 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.279 I said, you really need to think about going to OCS, 282 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.440 And so I A'm going to start putting in your 283 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.319 file and pushing you in that direction. And then you 284 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.680 know that followed up when I was at AI T 285 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:03.079 and then I got orders to go to OCS at 286 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:03.640 Fort Benning. 287 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:07.559 Were you happy about that? 288 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.599 Yeah, I mean I was ready yeah by then. And 289 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.279 then when I got o CS and uh, you know, 290 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:20.160 you got exposed to a lot of things there. Airborne 291 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.440 was wine Ranger was one. You know, all this different 292 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.599 stuff you were doing. And you know, the the O 293 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.240 C S company I was in was right next to 294 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.920 the jump towers, you know, so every day I was 295 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.559 watching people come down and parachutes out there. 296 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:37.480 You know. 297 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.640 So I requested to go to jump school, requested to 298 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.240 go to Special Forces, and and I got orders for 299 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.119 both of those. So as soon as I finished OCS, 300 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.559 I went to Jump School. Finished that, I went to 301 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.480 Fort Bragg, went through the Q course up there, you know, 302 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:01.759 became SS qualified and you know, went on a team 303 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.119 was prepping to go on a mission to Africa because 304 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.799 at that time, the Third Group was targeted toward Africa. 305 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.519 And I had also volunteered to go to Ranger School 306 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.559 and Vietnam, so that came through. They sent me the 307 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:27.319 Rangers School. Shortly after that, the orders for Vietnam came 308 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:32.680 down and to Field Special Forces Group and I went 309 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.880 there and yeah, on discovered there was something about special 310 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.240 lots that I really didn't know about. 311 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:41.160 Yeah. 312 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.000 One of the things you talk about, which is something 313 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.519 they used to do but they don't aymore, was the 314 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:48.680 quick kill course. You know, they used to use the 315 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.000 Daisy rifle for sort of the point shooting. Can you 316 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.359 tell us about that? Because that I don't know. That 317 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:57.720 school went away. They don't do it anymore, but it 318 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.480 was a very valuable school, right. 319 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.720 Yes, uh, you know they told us, you know, we're 320 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.000 going to go out and do some training to do 321 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:12.160 about two weeks of focusing on on something that was 322 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.160 called quick cool. So we we went out to the 323 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.960 training site, you know, myself and a group of other 324 00:20:20.599 --> 00:20:25.759 young SF guys, and you know, the instructor came out 325 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:31.680 and he had a BB gun TB rifle and he 326 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:36.400 threw a about a three or four inch aluminum disc 327 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.559 up in the air and he just shot from his 328 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.079 waist with the BB gun and hit it. He said, 329 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.160 you know, you're going to start with a disc like that, 330 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.079 and then we're going to go down to this size, 331 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:50.400 then this size, and he kept getting smaller and smaller, 332 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.640 and he's he's hitting him out of the air every time. Uh, 333 00:20:54.880 --> 00:21:00.039 you know, without aiming hitting that's pretty cool. So we 334 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.559 all got our BB guns and started shooting at the disc. 335 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:06.759 Then they changed. 336 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.240 This over with two by fours that had a little 337 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:13.200 three inch silhouettes on it, and you know, you would 338 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.000 shoot at the little silhouettes like that, and we got 339 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.599 good at that. And then we changed over to M 340 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:24.920 sixteen and we'd actually go through a go down a 341 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.920 trail on the range, that target would pop up and 342 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:35.759 you would use a quick kill. Sometimes people now still 343 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:40.359 talk about it as point shooting. It's you know, you're 344 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.480 not coming all the way up here, you're shooting from 345 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.920 down at the waist or chest level at the most. 346 00:21:46.279 --> 00:21:50.000 Yeah, but it's very fast. 347 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:54.400 If you're within twenty twenty five meters of a target, 348 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:55.400 you're not going to miss it. 349 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.279 Yeah, it didn't take you long at all. 350 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:04.000 And I mean I still put on demonstrations now with 351 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.920 you swat teams law enforcement. I still go back to 352 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:13.599 Bragg and Campbell, the special obscurus, and as home, I 353 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:17.200 can still hit from there. In fact, if you're carrying 354 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.160 at downport like most people do, with the stock leaning 355 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:24.680 up there, I said, I'll hit you three times before 356 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:27.039 you can even start to move your weapon up. Yeah, 357 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:32.079 too slow the way you're carrying your weapon. You pick 358 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:33.920 a door open and go in a room and there's 359 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:35.720 a guy they are already polling a weapon. 360 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:35.880 Eight. 361 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:36.799 You can die. 362 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:39.839 You know, he will get you if you're not ready 363 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:41.480 to pull the trigger and hit the target. 364 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:45.440 How hard, I'm sorry. How hard was it to transition 365 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.119 from BB gun to the M sixteen. 366 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.880 It really wasn't hard in terms of hitting the target. 367 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:54.880 I mean we had shot the six I mean, we'd 368 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.480 done work with the M sixteen, just we hadn't tried 369 00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:03.079 to do the quick kill and you know, and to 370 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:08.759 jump way ahead. One of the things that happens with 371 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:13.880 it all the services is with your marksmanship training. You know, 372 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:19.079 whether it's a pistol or rifle, you spend all kinds 373 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.839 of time on side alignment, getting the right site picture 374 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:28.880 and all of that. And that's great until your target 375 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.880 starts shooting back at you, and then your stress level 376 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:35.720 of skyrockets. And when it does, one of the changes 377 00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:39.519 that happens is your vision changes. You can't see the 378 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:44.079 sites anymore. So you're you're looking trying to aim, but 379 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:48.599 the sites are just blurred because your your vision changes, 380 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.920 So you can't really focus on anything until it's out 381 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.960 beyond where your weapon is, you know. But with the 382 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.839 point shooting, you don't have to worry about that, Yeah, 383 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:01.839 because your point, you know, you're not using a site 384 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:02.559 picture like that. 385 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.319 Yeah. 386 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:09.279 So you get assigned a third group, you're prep for Africa. 387 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:11.920 You're disappointed because you want to go to Vietnam. You 388 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:13.680 go to ranger school, you get back and you find 389 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:15.279 out that you are going to Vietnam. 390 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:16.160 Right. 391 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:21.519 What when you get to Vietnam? What was your first impression. 392 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.079 I had? 393 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:32.039 I had grown up in a world here in the US, 394 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.440 and we have laws and rules and rules of engagement 395 00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.759 and things that you can do. And you know, I 396 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:43.440 get on a plane and twenty and twenty five hours later, 397 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:48.640 I step off the plane in Vietnam, and as soon 398 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.279 as I exit the plane, the smell hits me. 399 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:53.880 Yeah it is. 400 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:57.039 I mean, the smell is just very different. And I 401 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.960 rollize I'm in a different world. Yeah, a very different world. 402 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:04.400 All the noise, the chaos, vehicles running around, planes landing, 403 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:11.559 taking off. And I also noticed that the people, the Vietnamese, 404 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.960 were people where I could actually see the tops of 405 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:21.160 their heads. You know, I'm not very tall. I don't 406 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.720 see the top of somebody's head very often talking to them. Yeah, 407 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.559 but I could see theirs, and I thought, well, this 408 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.480 is pretty cool. You know, I am at least as 409 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:35.880 tall or taller than they are. A lot of activity 410 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.519 going on, just a real adjustment. And the pilot had 411 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:45.680 told us as we were getting close to landing, and 412 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.759 he said, this is this is what's going to happen. 413 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.640 I don't want to scare you, but when we get 414 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.680 close to the airfil I'm going to put us into 415 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.880 a nose dive and we're going to dive down toward 416 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.759 the air airfield. I'm going to pull us out at 417 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:06.160 the last minute, flare out, will land, and when we 418 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.119 hit the ground, don't unfasten your seatbelt because I'm going 419 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:14.079 to taxi really fast around to the area where we're 420 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:17.279 going to unload. You need to be fastened until we 421 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:20.759 get there. And then when we say go, we want 422 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.640 you to get up and you guys move out the 423 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.440 front exit doors because the guys who are leaving are 424 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.640 going to be coming in through the rear doors. So 425 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.880 you're going out the front. They're coming in the rear 426 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:35.440 because we're not going to be on the ground but 427 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:39.119 just a few minutes, because we are a prime target 428 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:42.799 when we were setting there for rockets and mortars to 429 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:48.000 come in on us. So just the landing and take 430 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:51.599 offs were really different than what I was used to. 431 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:57.279 So you get there and you get some really solid advice, right, 432 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.759 somebody tells you they give you good advice. 433 00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:02.079 And what was that advice? 434 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:11.960 A friend of mine, I had left for Vietnam about 435 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:16.640 a month before I did, so he had been near 436 00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:20.599 He's already a signil mic force, but he got word 437 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.680 that I was coming and he linked up with me. 438 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.440 We went to a bar and you know, he was 439 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.119 telling me all about what's going on and how things 440 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.400 work there, and he said, you know, tomorrow you have 441 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.960 to go in and filled out all kinds of paperwork 442 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.400 and forms and things like that, and at the end 443 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:44.880 of the day they're going to take you into a 444 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:49.279 room and they're going to ask you if you want 445 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:57.000 to volunteer for sock. And he said, whatever you do, 446 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.640 do not volunteer for sock. I don't even know what 447 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.680 it is. Why would I not volunteer? He said, if 448 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.920 you volunteer, you're going to die. Just hear what I'm saying. 449 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:08.559 You're going to die. 450 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.519 If you don't die, you're going to get the crap 451 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.759 shot out of you and you're going to go back 452 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:15.279 to the States as a nutcase. 453 00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:20.160 That's what they find your body. Do not volunteer for salt. 454 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.079 Yeah, any we hung out there for a while and 455 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:25.480 he said, I'll see you back here. 456 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:25.880 It's more. 457 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:32.880 And so when I came walking in, he looked at 458 00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:34.799 me and he said, you. 459 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.880 Did it, didn't you. I can't tell what I look 460 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:37.480 on your face. 461 00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:38.160 You did it. 462 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.000 I mean, you are a dead man walking. 463 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.079 So when you when you go into that room, how 464 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:47.680 do they pitch? 465 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.279 How did they pitch you like, what was their big uh? 466 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:55.680 Did they show you like a motivational video with guys 467 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:56.799 coming out of the water. 468 00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.359 Now I'm I'm twenty one years old. 469 00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:02.200 Yeah. 470 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:07.519 And you know, back at that time, we used to 471 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:12.920 think that the front part of your brain, the preformal 472 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.839 cortex up here, that its primary function in life was 473 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.000 to hold your cranium up so that the front of 474 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:23.039 your head didn't cave in. We found out later that 475 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:27.039 this is really where risk assessment, decision making, all of 476 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.680 those kinds of things take place. This is where the 477 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:35.759 CEO of your brain lives. So when he looked at 478 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.200 my folder and he's flipping to it, and he said, 479 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:42.680 you know, you've volunteered to join the Army. You volunteered 480 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:50.680 for Airborne School, you volunteered for you know, Special Forces, 481 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.279 you volunteered for Ranger, you volunteered to go to Vietnam. 482 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.839 I'm about to give you an opportunity to volunteer for 483 00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:03.960 the most important thing you will ever volunteer for. I said, 484 00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.519 you're about to ask me if I want to volunteer 485 00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:13.279 for SOG. He said, yes, said I like what I 486 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.799 see here with you. You're perfect for this job. And 487 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:17.680 I said, what do they do? 488 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.240 And he said, I. 489 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:18.759 Can't tell you. 490 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.160 The only way you can find out what they do 491 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:23.759 is you have to go there. But I can tell 492 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:29.000 you this that if you volunteer for SOG, you're volunteering 493 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:35.920 to go anywhere, anytime, do anything, and not talk about 494 00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:39.920 it for twenty years. I'm twenty one years old. My 495 00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:43.720 prefunnel cortex has not developed yet. I mean he might 496 00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:47.720 as well be holding up a recruiting poster. Go anywhere, 497 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:50.400 do anything, and not tell anybody for twenty I can 498 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.119 do that. I don't know what it is you want 499 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:55.200 me to do, but I think I can handle that. 500 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:56.519 I volunteered for it. 501 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.480 Hey, guys, are show is sponsored by ghost Bad Check 502 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.519 them out. Please to make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome betting. 503 00:31:05.079 --> 00:31:09.240 Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award winning mattresses 504 00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.319 crafted in the US and Canada. Did you know that 505 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.960 sixty percent of US adults report being too hot when 506 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.160 they're trying to sleep? 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I love ghost Sped. 548 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:25.960 Thanks guys. 549 00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:31.759 Now, can you give us, you know, a rundown on? 550 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.160 You know all these guys were coming from SF or 551 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:39.480 they're all SF, they're all Special Forces. Why is the 552 00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:43.400 studies an observation group. Why is that different than the 553 00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.200 guys in the A camps and and things like that, 554 00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:47.400 like what's different? 555 00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:51.319 What do they do or what did they do? 556 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:57.200 Yeah, one big difference is big difference is that. 557 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:04.279 Our targets in our area of operation, they were in 558 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:05.480 different countries. 559 00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:07.839 I mean, for the. 560 00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:13.719 Most part, Vietnam. South Vietnam was just a training site 561 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.679 for US. We could go out and rehearse missions. We 562 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:22.360 could go get some you know, Vietcong and North Vietnamese 563 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:26.119 soldiers to come out and train with us and shoot 564 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.519 at us, you know, so we could get used to 565 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:32.199 being shot at and we could shoot some people. But 566 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.320 when when you went across the border you went Sterle, 567 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:43.559 first of all, nothing said us. No dog tags, no 568 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.400 ID card, nothing that said that you were from from 569 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:55.320 the US. It provided plausible deniability for the President since 570 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:59.280 he was on TV on a regular basis saying we're 571 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.760 not in any other countries, We're just in South Vietnam. 572 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:09.239 But all of our SAG missions where Laos, Cambodia, North Vietnam, 573 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:14.480 the DMZ, Thailand, places like that where we were not 574 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:20.400 supposed to be. So if we were caught, then we 575 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.159 could be executed on the spot. 576 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:22.800 As a spy. 577 00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:28.159 We were not covered by the Geneva Convention, you know, 578 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:33.639 so it was different for us. And then the number 579 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:39.000 of enemy that you would be engaged with was pretty 580 00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:43.320 much insane. I mean, when they tell you, I want 581 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.920 you to take six guys and go out and find 582 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:53.960 this battalion of North Vietnamese and attacker. Okay, they should 583 00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:57.320 be easy to find. That's a lot of people. I'm 584 00:35:57.320 --> 00:35:59.440 not sure how to get away from them, but I 585 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.679 thought it'd be pretty cool to learn. 586 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:02.400 Yeah. 587 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:09.280 So so you you get assigned to RT Alabama right 588 00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:10.199 and Fubai. 589 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:12.800 Yes. 590 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:19.360 So when I you went to d NAG first, and 591 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.119 that's where you found out what SAG was found out. 592 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.519 Everything was top secret. 593 00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:27.719 You couldn't say anything after you walked out of that room. 594 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:30.480 And when they were there were three camps like the 595 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.440 one that d NAG and then there were some smaller ones. 596 00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:40.199 You got a code name so that you know you 597 00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:43.599 if you were captured, you could kind of prove or 598 00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:47.800 let the US know it was you and where you 599 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.960 And then you know, I was sent up to Fubai, 600 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:58.119 uh that had some of the teams up there. I 601 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.639 put a closer uh uh to the Lallish and border 602 00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:07.639 in North Vietnam. So they were about five or six 603 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:09.639 of us that went up there at the same time, 604 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.440 and everybody's name was called off by the sergeant major 605 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.360 except mine, and they were told that they were going 606 00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:22.800 to go to a two week course to teach them 607 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:29.440 how to be team leaders and sold And. 608 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:29.840 So I said, you know what about me? 609 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:33.480 You didn't call my name and he said, hey, your 610 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.599 Ranger Special Forces. You got all this extra training, I'm 611 00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:40.199 putting you to work. You're going to be assigned to 612 00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:43.679 a team tomorrow, uh, and we're going to get you 613 00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:49.400 out doing your thing. I thought, well, that's cool. Get 614 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:50.480 started pretty fast. 615 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.039 And so you get to your team And what was 616 00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:56.440 that like when you first got there? 617 00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:03.880 When I got were to your team? Well, on a 618 00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:10.320 SOG team, it doesn't matter what your rank is. So 619 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:14.880 I came into the team as an officer, and you know, 620 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.039 I was the only officer on the team. But I 621 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:23.039 had to go out with the team uh several times 622 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:28.280 and prove you know, my ability to lead in combat 623 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:31.239 and work with the SOG teams and learn all the 624 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.880 little special techniques that they use before I could have 625 00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:38.239 my own teams. I went out as a second in 626 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:44.480 command with a with an E seven, and you know, 627 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:48.039 he was teaching me, you know, some of the things 628 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:51.719 about being a leadership of being a leader. He was 629 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:56.000 also evaluating me and vetting me to be able to 630 00:38:56.039 --> 00:39:00.360 be a leader. So with Alabama, I went out you know, 631 00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.280 four times with them. Yeah, then I was clear to 632 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:06.000 be a leader. 633 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.599 So you know, you're you have this kind of like 634 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:17.960 SAGA had a wide range of operations and like your 635 00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:22.719 first mission was wire tapping, right, So so do they 636 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.800 like do they have courses for you guys back at 637 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:28.559 the camp, Like how do you you know if you're 638 00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:31.880 doing a pipeline hit or wire tapping or a rendition 639 00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:34.880 or you know, a snatch and grab, Like, how do 640 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.400 you know, learn these these different skills. 641 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:43.599 For the most part from operators who have done it 642 00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:48.679 before and know it. And sometimes if it's something really special, 643 00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.920 they may be bringing in a CIA GA or somebody 644 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:59.480 else who has the expertise. But the RT Alabama and 645 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:04.159 then while the wire taps before, so they knew how 646 00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:06.679 to do it, and I learned, you know, as we 647 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:11.320 went out and did it. It's not that complex once 648 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:16.199 you see how it's done. The execution, you know, actually 649 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:22.679 getting it done without getting caught is the issue. And 650 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:30.559 you know, in that particular case, first mission, we went 651 00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:36.639 out and we were also testing is it better to 652 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:40.280 go in at last light just before it gets dark, 653 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:42.719 so once you get on to the helicopters and get 654 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:44.079 into the jungle, that. 655 00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.400 Be very difficult to track you. 656 00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:49.880 Or do you go in first light so you have 657 00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:54.199 daylight to try to, you know, get some space between 658 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:56.480 you and where you go in. But we're going in 659 00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:03.960 at last light, and we're gonna go down until a 660 00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:07.079 bomb crater. They dropped a very large bomb and blew 661 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:11.000 a hole into jungle canopy, just barely big enough for 662 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:15.119 the helicopter to set down in. So we're approaching it 663 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.440 and you know, the skids are almost dragging on the 664 00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:23.400 top of the canopy. The team leaders over on one 665 00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.679 side with a couple of people. They're standing on the 666 00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:30.679 skid of the helicopter there. I'm on the other side 667 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.480 with another American and a couple of indig and we're 668 00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:40.519 standing out and we're just barely moving. And I was thinking, 669 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.440 if the NBA is down there, he could take a 670 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:47.840 rock and knock me off the skid. I mean, we're 671 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:53.639 wide open and we're just barely moving. So we get 672 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.559 to them to the hole in the canopy, and the 673 00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:03.000 helicopter starts to settle down in toward the crater, and 674 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.559 we get about we're probably still six feet from the 675 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:11.920 ground and he can't get any lower. And I'm wearing 676 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.719 seventy five maybe eighty pounds of gear and thinking if 677 00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:21.119 when I jump off the skid and go down six 678 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:24.440 feet and hit, I'm probably going to break both legs. 679 00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:29.719 But you know that's what sog people do. So I 680 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:30.440 get ready. 681 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:36.079 I bent my knees to jump in, and just as 682 00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:41.159 I got ready to jump, I saw some movement on 683 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:45.800 my right. About ten fifteen feet away was a NVA 684 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.400 soldier with AK forty seven pointed up at me, and 685 00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:53.239 I thought, well, man, So instead of jumping into the crater, 686 00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:56.000 I jumped back up on the edge of the floor 687 00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:59.559 of the helicopter. Just as he pulled the trigger, stream 688 00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:03.800 around came by. They missed me because I had jumped back, 689 00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:06.639 but they hit the American next to me, took his 690 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:10.800 legs out from under him, so I grabbed him by 691 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.280 the back of the harness as he was falling I 692 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:17.039 managed to pull him up, and you know, I took 693 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:20.960 my right hand and hose down the guy that had 694 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:22.920 just shot at us. I'll put about a half a 695 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.679 magazine into him, got the other guy up. 696 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:28.239 Blood's going everywhere. 697 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:34.400 Now everybody's shooting, and the whole bomb crater comes alive 698 00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.000 because they had an ambush set up around it. So 699 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:42.519 there's a tracers criss crossing inside the cargo compartment, somehow 700 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:46.559 missing us. And you know, I was just amazed that 701 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:49.679 that many bullets could come be coming and not be 702 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:53.920 getting hit. I went ahead and emptied the rest of 703 00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:56.559 the magazine into a tree in front of me where 704 00:43:56.559 --> 00:43:59.920 I could see muscle flashers and saw a guy fall out. 705 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.880 But when I reached to get another magazine to reload, 706 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.800 I had you know, my hand was just covered in 707 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:12.280 blood and that made it slick. The magazines were really 708 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:18.559 packed tight into the the. 709 00:44:16.960 --> 00:44:18.559 Canteen cover that I was using. 710 00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:22.400 I couldn't get the magazine out, And eventually I did 711 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:29.000 get it out, but then my fine muscle control had 712 00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:31.079 deteriorated so much from the stress. 713 00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:33.159 I couldn't get it in the magazine. 714 00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.480 Well, you know, bullets are coming at me and I'm 715 00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:39.159 trying to get the magazine in. Finally got it in 716 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:43.480 so I could start returning fire. After I got the 717 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.599 first one out of the pals and I could get 718 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.320 the others without any problem. But you know, I had 719 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:54.800 just never experienced that level of fear. I had tried 720 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.119 to imagine, you know, what it would be like to 721 00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:01.679 have a bunch of people shooting at you, and you 722 00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:07.000 know they're they're fifteen twenty meters away at most. Yeah, 723 00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.760 nothing but air between me and them, and you know it's. 724 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:11.199 Coming at us. 725 00:45:11.239 --> 00:45:14.199 You can hear hear the rounds hitting in the helicopter, 726 00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:19.880 and you know, the the door gunners right next to me. 727 00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:23.679 He's got the sixty going. Two of my little guys 728 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.239 are behind me, one on each side of my head. 729 00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:29.519 With the car fifteen firing on automatic. I can feel, 730 00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:32.440 you know, the powder burns hitting my face. You know, 731 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.719 it's all that's going on. I'm trying to shoot. 732 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:37.039 And it was. 733 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:44.920 Probably lasted two or three minutes. It seemed like, you know, all. 734 00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:45.480 Day, but. 735 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.599 Because stuff was hitting everywhere. 736 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:53.079 Anyway, we got it out of that and eventually we've 737 00:45:53.159 --> 00:45:56.480 got back. And on the way back, I looked over 738 00:45:56.639 --> 00:45:59.039 at the team leader sitting on the other side of 739 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.199 the helicopter and he looked around at me, and when 740 00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:05.079 he saw me, I mean, he grinned like a horse 741 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.880 eat and saw bryar and started giving me the thumbs up, 742 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.320 and I thought he thought that was cool. 743 00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.000 Really in George, what we just did. 744 00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:17.760 I don't know if I'm going to get to that 745 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:20.719 point or not based on how I felt back there, 746 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.599 but he's pretty excited about this. Then when we got 747 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:26.880 back and we got off the helicopter and he came 748 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:31.960 over to me and he said, I'm going to tell 749 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:37.320 you something, lutt If you don't learn to change magazines 750 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:40.119 baster when people are shooting at. 751 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:44.639 You, you're going to die. And I said copy that. 752 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:49.639 I was pretty fast, but I didn't realize the impact 753 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:53.119 of someone shooting at me how much slower it. 754 00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:56.039 Was going to be. Yeah, I will start practicing. 755 00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.079 So one of the things I tried to do with 756 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:03.239 the books is I wanted to show the reader this 757 00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:07.360 is what I saw. You're looking through my eyes. You're 758 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:12.000 figuring my fear, You're seeing what I'm seeing. You see 759 00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.960 the mistakes that I make, You see the changes that 760 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:19.119 I start making Across time, as I learned more and 761 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.400 more how I'm changing the tactics that I'm using with 762 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.000 the team, teaching them how to do things differently. And 763 00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:29.920 you can see a big change as you go across 764 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:34.960 those two books in terms of how I led teams 765 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:36.320 and how we fall. 766 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:41.000 For people who are familiar with SOG and I've watched 767 00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:44.280 our shows or other shows, you probably know why there 768 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.760 was an ambush set up. But for people who don't know, 769 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:54.440 SG was top secret for everybody except for the North Vietnamese, who, 770 00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.400 due to the political climate in Vietnam, the South fields 771 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:03.440 had to be informed of everything that you guys did, 772 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.519 and that basically was sent up to the North Vietnamese, 773 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.840 so there was always, you know, at least a company 774 00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:13.599 of not a battalion waiting. 775 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:17.519 For you guys. Right. Yeah. 776 00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:23.519 I see a lot of people practicing jiu jitsu, and 777 00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:28.000 the way people do that is that you and I 778 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.960 are going going to have a match, So we get 779 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:34.840 down on the floor. I get my best hole around you, 780 00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:37.480 you get your best hold on me, and then they 781 00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.880 say go and you know, then we start rolling around 782 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:44.880 fighting when I was trying to beat the other. And 783 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:49.000 that's that's like a SOG mission. You get a whole bunch, 784 00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:54.280 you know, five hundred thousand, uh, and you put him 785 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.840 out there in the jungle. Then you take this little 786 00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.800 six or eight man SOG team and you set them 787 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:04.519 right in the middle of them. And once they're in there, 788 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:08.760 and then somebody says go. So now you've got to 789 00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.960 try to, you know, accomplish the mission that you went 790 00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:13.320 there for. 791 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:16.119 And then you have to try to get out. 792 00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:20.320 And the most difficult thing of the whole process is 793 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:23.920 getting out because now they all know where you are. Yeah, 794 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:27.559 and you know, I used to liking it too. It's 795 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.840 like kicking the top off of an ant hill. They 796 00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.480 just swarm out of the ant hill. Once they find 797 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.440 out where you are, they just swarm on you. 798 00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:38.960 Yeah. Yeah. 799 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.800 You know you talked about how this book was through 800 00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.599 your eyes and the opening, the opening of the book 801 00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:48.519 has a really. 802 00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:56.079 Intense scene with you grappling with North. Do you want 803 00:49:56.119 --> 00:49:58.639 to tell us that story? 804 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:05.800 The on on one of the missions, And I'm going to. 805 00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:08.159 Go ahead and add a lot, add a little bit 806 00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:12.880 more to what's in the front. The helicopter I was 807 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:17.079 in was shot down, so we crashed on the l Z. 808 00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:23.159 They broke my back, practured my spine, some vertebrae, some 809 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:25.000 ribs and. 810 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:25.679 Things like that. 811 00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.559 You know, when we crashed, one of my guys had 812 00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:33.679 gotten shot through the thigh as the helicopter was coming 813 00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:38.280 down anyway, where the three of us were all thrown out. 814 00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.960 My interpreter was with me. 815 00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:44.000 We were thrown out onto the ground and all three 816 00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:50.079 knocked out. When I came to, I wasn't sure if 817 00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:53.320 I was dead or alive. But as I my hearing 818 00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.880 started to come back, I could hear the rounds cracking 819 00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.639 bines and digging up the ground. So I figured I 820 00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:02.000 must be alive because they're trying to kill me. So 821 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:09.440 I started moving, and because there was a small bomb 822 00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:13.760 crater there, I started moving toward that. And then my 823 00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:16.599 guy that was shot in the leg, he couldn't go anywhere, 824 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:18.039 so I had to go back and I had to 825 00:51:18.039 --> 00:51:22.039 get him, drag him to the bomb crater, thank his 826 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:24.440 rucksack hall push him into the crater. I had to 827 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:28.079 go back and get my interpreter, drag him to the 828 00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:32.199 bomb crater, push him in, and you know, there's steadily 829 00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:38.000 just coming after us and shooting. But the three of 830 00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:44.519 us got in the bomb crater and then uh what 831 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:47.199 we call the cubby writer. The guy's in the plane 832 00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:53.440 up above us, he called the helicopter was sitting there 833 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.960 kind of leaning sideways. The blade was almost hitting the 834 00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:59.960 ground when it would turn. The wheels were flattened down. 835 00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:05.280 But he talked to the pilot and told him he 836 00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:09.000 wanted him and the co pilot to get out and 837 00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:14.079 let me get him in the bomb crater. The pilot said, no, uh, 838 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:19.880 we fix and and this is a very famous Vietnamese 839 00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:24.519 you know, saw the helicopter pilot. I mean he was 840 00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:27.000 shot down four times. I think this was the third 841 00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:31.119 time he was shot down. But the king he used 842 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:36.599 to get out. So uh so we had we were 843 00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.599 in the bomb crater, and they're coming across this little 844 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:42.440 grassy area trying to get us or get close enough 845 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.400 to throw a hand garnade, and we're stacking them up 846 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:48.280 like cord you know, like cord wood, all around the 847 00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:49.639 bomb crater. 848 00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:51.079 And I don't know. 849 00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:56.039 At one point, the idea popped into my head that 850 00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:58.320 what I should do is crawl out there and the 851 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:01.199 grass with them, because they're all through the grass trying 852 00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:03.679 to get to us. I should just go out there 853 00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.760 with him and snatch one of them up and drag 854 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:12.320 him back into the bomb crater, and again my prefhone 855 00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:17.079 quartex wasn't working very well. It sounded like a good idea. 856 00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:18.960 I mean, I've just got a broken back, it's not 857 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:22.719 a big deal. But I crawled out there and I 858 00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:26.280 could hear one crawling kind of toward me. I reached out, 859 00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:29.360 I grabbed him by the shoulder, scared him half to death. 860 00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:34.320 But he had an AK, so he tries to shoot me. 861 00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:41.440 I got his ak, and then he got the muzzle 862 00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:45.039 of my car fifteen and we're fighting and rolling around. 863 00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:48.440 I eventually shot him in the shoulder, but he was 864 00:53:48.519 --> 00:53:49.280 overpowering me. 865 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.079 I just didn't have any strength left. 866 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:56.800 And then for some reason, he turned loose the barrel 867 00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:00.960 of my car fifteen and just hit me as hard 868 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:01.920 as he could. 869 00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:02.440 Right in the nose. 870 00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:08.199 Just flattened my nose out, blood went everywhere. My ball 871 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:12.079 was spinning around. But when he turned loose to the 872 00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:17.599 car fifteen, that gave me a second or so to 873 00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:22.800 reorient it. And then he realized. I could see the 874 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:25.559 look in his eyes that he knew he was dead 875 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:31.559 because the muzzle of the car fifteen was maybe six 876 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:36.559 inches away from his cheek and he just closed his 877 00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:38.800 eyes because he knew it was over, and I put 878 00:54:38.800 --> 00:54:41.599 a five or six round burst into his head and 879 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:47.280 it just exploded. So I went went back to the 880 00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:51.039 bomb crater, decided I tried to get a prisoner a 881 00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:52.639 different day. 882 00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:55.559 Yeah, that's so well. 883 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:58.679 And then how do they you know, you have multiple 884 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:02.599 wounded around it, how do they extract you guys? 885 00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:05.360 Well, eventually. 886 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:10.519 Using tactical air support and got the fire suppressed enough 887 00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:18.159 that they came in and dropped ropes from the helicopter 888 00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.559 that we fastened on, and they pulled us out. Captain 889 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:27.280 on in the helicopter, we were sitting on a pretty 890 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:31.320 steep ridge. He got up enough rotor speed to pick 891 00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.480 it up about a foot or so off the ground 892 00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:37.159 and just went over the side of the ridge and 893 00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:39.320 right on down to the bottom of the ridge and 894 00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:43.320 hit down there, and another aircraft came in and picked 895 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:49.039 him and his co pilowed up down there. But yeah, 896 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.360 it was We came out a lot of times hanging 897 00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:53.000 on ropes. 898 00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:57.320 Yeah. Yeah. Those those Vietnamese pilots for something, weren't they. 899 00:55:57.679 --> 00:56:00.400 Oh yeah, I mean they were they were fearless and 900 00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:01.360 they were good. 901 00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:06.639 Yeah, they were flying the you know, h thirty four helicopters, 902 00:56:06.679 --> 00:56:08.400 the big, big fat ones. 903 00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:11.079 Yeah, they're very powerful. 904 00:56:11.599 --> 00:56:15.320 Now, when you got to RT Alabama, you also were 905 00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:16.360 put on a hatchet for us. 906 00:56:16.400 --> 00:56:17.360 Can you tell us about that? 907 00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:22.880 Yeah, they assigned me so I had the double assignment there. 908 00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:26.559 They assigned me to you know, a hatchet platoon. So 909 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:30.199 I had fifty guys and you know, so I was 910 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.039 the platoon leader. 911 00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:34.440 For the Hatchet Force. 912 00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:38.800 But it ended up the only thing I did with 913 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:42.000 him was trained. I never got to take them on 914 00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:45.000 a mission because they kept kept me so busy with 915 00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:50.679 the teams going out. So Alabama kept kept me busy, 916 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:55.239 and then they shut food By down and sent teams 917 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:55.679 all over. 918 00:56:56.559 --> 00:56:59.079 I was sent down to Danang. 919 00:56:58.920 --> 00:57:04.679 To c CN and that's where I picked up RT Michigan. 920 00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.159 What what what was the mission of the Hatchet Force. 921 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:11.360 It was to have. 922 00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:17.000 It's kind of kind of like a Ranger force, kinetic, 923 00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:22.719 you know, hard hitting impact to go in and you know, 924 00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:26.039 really you know, kick some booty with. 925 00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:28.760 The with the enemy. 926 00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.320 I mean you you had patams, but you had companies too, 927 00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.199 so you could put a whole company in there. 928 00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:37.480 And that was a lot of firepower. 929 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:44.119 So so they shut down Subai, so you had to 930 00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:50.400 fop forward RT Michigan And then, uh, can you tell 931 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:52.039 us about a couple of the ops there. Some of 932 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:54.079 them were, I mean all of them, I'm sure are 933 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:57.079 standouts and they're in the book, but can some of 934 00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:58.400 the couple that stand. 935 00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:02.039 Out in your memory? Yeah. When I when I first 936 00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:08.320 got there, the previous team leader one zero had been 937 00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:13.079 wounded badly and so he was he was, you know, 938 00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:18.599 meta BacT So I took over as a as the 939 00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:23.679 team leader. And there was one other American there, specialist 940 00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:33.880 fourth class, by the name of Bargewell, and. 941 00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:33.079 He was a sharp guy. 942 00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:37.119 I thought, Wow, I mean this this kid is really sharp. 943 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:40.719 And I'm saying kid, you know, I was three months 944 00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:47.000 older than him. But anyway, he had been with the 945 00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:51.079 team for a while, a lot of combat experience, really good. 946 00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.119 He and I got along really well. 947 00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:56.239 We had. 948 00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:00.639 Had a mission to go in and actually port a 949 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:04.719 hatchet force that was being put on the ground. We 950 00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:06.280 were going to be on the other side of the 951 00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.880 highway to make sure no one came from that side 952 00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:14.280 and attack the hatchet force. But we were going to 953 00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:16.519 do it in a unique way. The one hundred and 954 00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:19.760 first had a company right on the border. 955 00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:22.960 With Loos Oh. 956 00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:28.199 The plan was we were going to fly in with 957 00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:32.239 the resupplies for the one hundred first for that company. 958 00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:36.400 Drafts like one hundred and first guys get off the 959 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:40.960 helicopter that way, and then the next morning we would 960 00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:44.679 go down with the water team down to the river. 961 00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:47.679 To bring water back. 962 00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:50.519 Except when we got there, all of our clothes and 963 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:54.480 things is going duffel bags. They would bring our clothes back, 964 00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.880 we would move off across the river, go into loos 965 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:04.000 Were over to where we needed to be. So that 966 01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:09.039 was a fairly unique way at that point to do 967 01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:14.559 an insertion. We also had artillery support. Only time I 968 01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:19.519 had artillery support because one hundred first was close to 969 01:00:19.559 --> 01:00:24.159 the water, they could reach us. So I planned all 970 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:28.719 these artillery targets and things out there, and we went 971 01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:31.840 in eventually made some contact. 972 01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:35.199 And got in some big battles. 973 01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:42.840 And that's when I I realized that if you stop 974 01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.679 when they when they're coming after you, if you stop, 975 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:48.800 what they tend to do. 976 01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:49.840 The NBA. 977 01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:53.159 What they tend to do is they're just like an 978 01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:58.800 amiba and your dinner, and they just kind of move 979 01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:04.360 out and us enveloped. You all around you. Now you're 980 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:07.039 you're in the center and they just come in and 981 01:01:07.079 --> 01:01:12.239 get you. So because they were chasing us, we got 982 01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:14.800 into a rocky area and I thought, this is a 983 01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:19.000 this is an area not only has some concealment, but 984 01:01:19.079 --> 01:01:25.440 it has cover. And we stopped and they just salted 985 01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:29.840 and salted. Eventually we were we were pulled out by 986 01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:36.400 you know, ropes. I sent barswell and the other American 987 01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:38.480 that was with us and a couple of team members 988 01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:41.559 they went out, sent them out first. I stayed with 989 01:01:42.280 --> 01:01:45.519 uh the other three team members that we had, and 990 01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:49.639 we came out last. Both of them were wounded coming out. 991 01:01:49.840 --> 01:01:50.199 I was. 992 01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:52.239 I was hit in the back with. 993 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:57.760 It in the the radio, and I was also hit 994 01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:59.880 with a big piece of shrapnel. 995 01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:01.679 That hit. 996 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.880 My survival radio. 997 01:02:07.320 --> 01:02:09.519 I know, if you're listening to this on the podcast, 998 01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:15.320 you can't see it, but the survival radio was mounted 999 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:18.920 right here my pocket, right over my heart. So huge 1000 01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:23.599 piece of strapnel buried itself into the radio that stopped 1001 01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.599 it from bearing itself into my heart. 1002 01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:29.199 Got out and all of a sudden, we're. 1003 01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:33.360 Hanging at seven thousand feet on the end of a rope, 1004 01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:36.960 flying at one hundred plus miles an hour, freezing to death, 1005 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:39.679 you know, because we're soaking wet from all the sweat 1006 01:02:39.719 --> 01:02:42.960 and now we're seven thousand feet up and you know, 1007 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:44.760 it's cold. 1008 01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:46.519 And my ropes rubbing back and. 1009 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.159 Forth on the edge of the floor of the helicopter 1010 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.679 and I can see it starting to pray, and my 1011 01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:53.559 radio is dead. 1012 01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:58.280 Yeah, radio is dead. I can't radio the pilot and 1013 01:02:58.280 --> 01:02:59.599 say it. 1014 01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:01.960 I a said if we could sit down somewhere pretty 1015 01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:04.760 soon because my rope's about gone. 1016 01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:07.159 But we made it back anyway. 1017 01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:10.719 So this is a very nerdy question, but I have 1018 01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:11.159 to ask. 1019 01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:17.000 You're part of this, you know, uh covert unit doing 1020 01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:18.800 things that our country denies. 1021 01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:21.199 You go to a conventional. 1022 01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:23.519 Outpost where the hundred and first is how do you 1023 01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:28.199 coordinate fires with them and tell they're already people. Hey, 1024 01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:33.440 you can't ask who we are, but we might call 1025 01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:36.400 you and we want you to fire into laus. 1026 01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:43.000 Yeah, well, you have the same You have the same 1027 01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:50.920 issue with the helicopter crews. Okay, the pilots get briefed 1028 01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:54.480 on the mission. They know they're going to cross the river. 1029 01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:57.519 But the crew, you know, the gunner crew to you 1030 01:03:57.599 --> 01:04:01.280 from the gunner that know. But you can see the 1031 01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:04.000 expression on their face when they see that river coming 1032 01:04:04.079 --> 01:04:07.679 up and they're still flying toward it, and you know, 1033 01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:12.320 and and they're looking down and thinking, oh, geez, we 1034 01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:16.000 just crossed into Laos or Cambodie or wherever it is. 1035 01:04:16.679 --> 01:04:19.239 And then then they get all their briefings. They can't 1036 01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:23.079 say anything about it. But with the artillery, you know, 1037 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:27.559 they they're they're there, and I'm briefing them and saying, 1038 01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:30.920 I'm plotting these targets on the other side of the river, 1039 01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:34.360 but you won't be able to talk about this. 1040 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:36.800 I used them. 1041 01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:40.239 And then when we had to get pulled out, you know, 1042 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:43.559 I sent Bar aswell, and and you know, the other 1043 01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:46.480 half of the team out first, and they flew back 1044 01:04:46.519 --> 01:04:50.920 to the fire support base. So those guys are out 1045 01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:55.719 there seeing this helicopter come from way over on the 1046 01:04:55.760 --> 01:04:59.039 other side of the border flying right toward them, right and. 1047 01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:01.559 There. 1048 01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:03.960 So they got pretty excited and they all came out 1049 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:07.800 to see what was going on. And then my helicopter's coming, 1050 01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:11.719 you know, with myself and two of my guys hanging 1051 01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:15.119 under it, and we're flying to it. So they knew 1052 01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:20.280 now there's somebody else coming from over there too. 1053 01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:20.800 And they set us down. 1054 01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:26.000 The medics did a quick fix on my two guys 1055 01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:29.400 and put us in a helicopter, and we were just 1056 01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:32.800 getting ready to lift off. I sawid guy running towards 1057 01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:35.639 the helicopter. This guy's hand went up in the air 1058 01:05:37.239 --> 01:05:39.760 and he's got something in his hand, and we're lifting 1059 01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:42.000 off the ground. Just as he gets Timmy, you know, 1060 01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:45.639 reached down and I took what he had in his hand, 1061 01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:51.199 and then I realized it was a picture. Polaroid had 1062 01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:55.440 just come out with this small version of the Polaroid camera, 1063 01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:59.519 and this guy bought one just before he came to Vietnam. 1064 01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:03.320 He saw the first helicopter come in, and he ran 1065 01:06:04.039 --> 01:06:06.400 ran back to his bunker and he got his camera 1066 01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:09.360 and came back out. So he was ready when mine 1067 01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.360 came in. So I got the actual picture that he 1068 01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:17.599 took of coming in hanging under the helicopter. 1069 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:20.159 There no clue he was. 1070 01:06:20.199 --> 01:06:23.920 Picture handy, by the by any chance, I'm sorry, do 1071 01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:25.679 you have that picture handy? 1072 01:06:25.679 --> 01:06:26.239 Is it still? 1073 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:34.280 It's it's in the book, Oh is it? Yeah? 1074 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:36.840 Uh? I don't remember. 1075 01:06:37.320 --> 01:06:40.440 That's okay, hey, no, it gives people one more reason 1076 01:06:40.519 --> 01:06:41.679 to uh to buy the book. 1077 01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:45.400 I mean, the book is loaded with pictures. 1078 01:06:45.519 --> 01:06:47.639 Yeah, and I know you're going to ask me that 1079 01:06:47.719 --> 01:06:51.719 same question if these were all classified, how did you 1080 01:06:51.800 --> 01:06:53.760 get those pictures? 1081 01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:55.960 Well, oh, I wasn't going to ask that. There are 1082 01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.320 always pictures on classified missions these days. 1083 01:07:01.880 --> 01:07:05.920 Yeah, I'm just gonna look right here for just a second. 1084 01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:07.719 I might be able to give you a page number. 1085 01:07:15.639 --> 01:07:17.760 Yeah, I'm just curious how the talk. 1086 01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:23.239 Goes on page I'm just curious how the discussion goes 1087 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:27.239 with like the base commander and the fire support officer saying, hey, 1088 01:07:27.400 --> 01:07:29.639 we want you to turn your guns around. 1089 01:07:31.000 --> 01:07:35.599 Uh, and and we're like, we're we're authorizing you to 1090 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:36.960 fire and a louse if we call you. 1091 01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:43.719 I wasn't privileged to what they were told time. I 1092 01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:47.119 know the company commander kind of freaked out when I 1093 01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:48.280 told him what we were going. 1094 01:07:48.239 --> 01:07:49.280 To do the next morning. 1095 01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:54.920 Yeah, the fire support lieutenant that he had there freaked 1096 01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:58.039 out when you said, you're you're plotting targets on the 1097 01:07:58.119 --> 01:07:59.920 other side of the river, on the other side of 1098 01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:00.440 the order. 1099 01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:04.079 I said, you're right, because. 1100 01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:08.679 When when I need you to fire on those targets, 1101 01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:12.400 I need you to have already computed everything. 1102 01:08:12.480 --> 01:08:13.079 Yeah, when I. 1103 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:19.199 You know, you know, fire target Monday, you know, write 1104 01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:23.000 two hundred, drop three hundred. I need grounds coming in 1105 01:08:23.039 --> 01:08:25.479 on the target right then because we're in big trouble. 1106 01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:26.239 Yeah. 1107 01:08:26.319 --> 01:08:30.800 So yeah, they just they just thought, wow, this is 1108 01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:34.960 we've never seen anybody at all these targets and name 1109 01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:37.600 them like days of the week so they all make sense, 1110 01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:40.760 and line them up ahead of time. 1111 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:43.079 I mean that's what rangers did, you know. 1112 01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:47.119 I mean, yeah, I did that all the time, you know, 1113 01:08:47.159 --> 01:08:51.439 when the training and stuff. So and used them once 1114 01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:54.000 we got out there because it could come in quick 1115 01:08:54.760 --> 01:08:55.119 like that. 1116 01:08:56.720 --> 01:08:56.880 You know. 1117 01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:59.720 We talked about sort of the expanse of operations that 1118 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.279 actually start did and like and then you know, like 1119 01:09:03.520 --> 01:09:05.800 you had your wire taps or search and destroy all 1120 01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:08.960 this son. Even though this was Alabama, all this son 1121 01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:11.319 was a very interesting project, right. 1122 01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:12.239 You want to talk. 1123 01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:15.960 About one of the one of the psyops kinds of 1124 01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:22.640 things that we did Black ops is we would go 1125 01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:32.960 into North Vietnamese ammunition cache is and add some additional 1126 01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:37.199 ammunition to it. So we would we would go in 1127 01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:41.279 and put uh, you know the seven six two rounds 1128 01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:45.359 for the aks, we'd put to you know, fifty one 1129 01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:50.680 calibers for the machine guns. We'd put Watar rounds, but 1130 01:09:50.920 --> 01:09:57.399 these rounds would explode. So in a you know, if 1131 01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:00.720 we might put out a Maga AK magazine, we have 1132 01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:05.800 contact and we run, and we leave an AK forty 1133 01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:09.479 seven magazine lay in there, fully loaded. But one of 1134 01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:12.079 those rounds when it gets to it, and the guy 1135 01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:15.560 shoots the whole weapon and his head's going to go away. 1136 01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:19.840 So if I see that happen to you, now I'm 1137 01:10:19.880 --> 01:10:24.560 afraid to fire my weapon, right, And they would only 1138 01:10:24.560 --> 01:10:28.039 be one in there. So even if you find what's 1139 01:10:28.119 --> 01:10:30.720 left of the magazine and start pulling the bullets out 1140 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:34.159 and checking them, the rest of the bullets are all fine, Right, 1141 01:10:34.199 --> 01:10:38.640 it's just one that exploded. Yeah, but that has a. 1142 01:10:38.319 --> 01:10:40.600 Big impact on whether or not you want to pull 1143 01:10:40.600 --> 01:10:41.079 the trigger. 1144 01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:44.760 Yeah, yeah, we were told that. Well, I mean Jack 1145 01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:47.279 has some first ten experience with that. But we're told 1146 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:50.760 that they rebooted that for the Global War on Terror 1147 01:10:50.800 --> 01:10:55.920 only since it's a kinder, gentler military, or that they 1148 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:59.640 only fused the weapons, didn't you. 1149 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:02.159 Yeah there, I mean there were also programs like in 1150 01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:06.279 Afghanistan where the tag, track and locate stuff became like 1151 01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:07.239 a really big deal. 1152 01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.359 But yeah, the ammunition wasn't designed to explode anymore, but 1153 01:11:11.520 --> 01:11:14.199 just to fuse the barrel because we didn't want to 1154 01:11:14.279 --> 01:11:14.960 hurt the enemy. 1155 01:11:15.640 --> 01:11:15.880 Yeah. 1156 01:11:16.039 --> 01:11:23.279 And you know, if you think even more recently with 1157 01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:29.640 with what what happened, you know with the Israelis and 1158 01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:35.880 all of a sudden, cell phones are exploding, pagers, pagers exploding, 1159 01:11:36.520 --> 01:11:37.720 it's the same kind of stuff. 1160 01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:38.279 You rig it. 1161 01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:41.640 So man, nobody wants to touch one of those pages 1162 01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:45.880 after they explode. Set Now they were afraid of cell phones. 1163 01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:49.079 They don't want to touch a cellphone. And you know 1164 01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:53.319 they planned and and put those things out there way 1165 01:11:53.359 --> 01:11:55.920 in advance and when you know they were going to 1166 01:11:56.039 --> 01:12:00.520 use them. But it has a major psychological impact on 1167 01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:04.159 something like that blows your buddy's head on. 1168 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:04.880 Yeah. 1169 01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:10.239 And then you had like uh, prisoner war snatches. 1170 01:12:12.439 --> 01:12:17.439 We'd go in prisoner snatches and statch up a prisoner 1171 01:12:17.479 --> 01:12:23.119 to bring out, so you had those, you had the 1172 01:12:23.159 --> 01:12:27.039 ambushes we have. We'd go watch like the whole ho 1173 01:12:27.199 --> 01:12:30.800 Chi Minh trail, uh set up where we could observe that. 1174 01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:34.760 And when the trucks would start down the trail, you know, 1175 01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:38.119 we could call the L four's to come in and 1176 01:12:38.199 --> 01:12:43.119 bomb them. So we do those kinds of missions. Sometimes 1177 01:12:43.159 --> 01:12:45.119 it was a raid. We'd go in and rate a 1178 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:52.359 particular place. I went into a training site on the 1179 01:12:52.399 --> 01:12:55.840 mission and we crawled up on top on top of 1180 01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:59.960 the mountain and hall it in because they're not gonna chance. 1181 01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:03.359 It's putting that stuff, so holting that stuff. 1182 01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:08.560 So they were teaching them, you know, how to come 1183 01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:09.960 after us, how to find us. 1184 01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:11.159 Yeah. 1185 01:13:11.640 --> 01:13:15.680 When when when you guys, would you like ep w 1186 01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:19.560 r uh like snatches? Were those justly targeted for a 1187 01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:24.239 specific personality or was it just hey, go get somebody 1188 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:26.840 the highest ranked person you can find. 1189 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:27.880 Uh? 1190 01:13:28.800 --> 01:13:31.840 Sometimes it was, you know, to get a high ranking person. 1191 01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:35.920 Most of the time it just get somebody, get somebody, so. 1192 01:13:37.279 --> 01:13:37.640 You know what. 1193 01:13:37.960 --> 01:13:40.319 In fact, one of the one of the missions with. 1194 01:13:41.960 --> 01:13:49.640 Michigan, I set up an ambush, uh, and I I used. 1195 01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:51.720 C four right in the middle of it. 1196 01:13:53.800 --> 01:13:56.760 So we had to claymores and interlocking fire and everything 1197 01:13:56.840 --> 01:14:00.399 everywhere except for this one hole where maybe two people 1198 01:14:00.479 --> 01:14:04.399 could be in and what they would get is just 1199 01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:08.000 a concussion coming from the C four to stun them. 1200 01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:11.840 We kill everybody else and then jump out on the 1201 01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:16.199 trail and grab those two guys up handcuff them, bag them, 1202 01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:21.560 you know, and drag them off. But you know, they 1203 01:14:22.399 --> 01:14:27.279 psychologically they had been told, you know that if Americans 1204 01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:31.239 catch you, they're going to mutilate you. They're going to 1205 01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:33.399 kill you, but they're going to mutilate you first and 1206 01:14:33.479 --> 01:14:36.319 torture you and do all this stuff. And they were 1207 01:14:36.359 --> 01:14:42.000 so afraid of being caught they killed themselves sometimes or 1208 01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:47.399 their buddies would kill them, Like the one mission there 1209 01:14:47.439 --> 01:14:53.920 with with Michigan. I mean, we had a guy that 1210 01:14:56.479 --> 01:15:01.199 he's he's bagged, hands handcuffed behind him, and he got 1211 01:15:01.239 --> 01:15:06.119 loose in the helicopter twenty six hundred feet he went 1212 01:15:06.199 --> 01:15:10.359 head first out of the helicopter and when last scene, 1213 01:15:11.359 --> 01:15:13.760 you know, he's traveling about one hundred and eighty miles 1214 01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:17.560 headfirst into the jungle. Yeah, so he'd go out of 1215 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:21.479 the helicopter, killed himself rather than let us take him 1216 01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:25.319 back yeah where you know, you wouldn't have been torture 1217 01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:31.039 or anything. Yeah, but based on what he'd been told 1218 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:32.720 was he was not going back. 1219 01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:37.880 With So you know, you cover about not I don't know, 1220 01:15:37.920 --> 01:15:41.479 eight nine missions, and I don't want to talk about 1221 01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:43.640 all of them because people should buy this book, they 1222 01:15:43.680 --> 01:15:46.159 should read the book. And then what's the second book 1223 01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:47.920 called which you said is more intense. 1224 01:15:48.119 --> 01:15:50.039 It's this book too, okay, book two. 1225 01:15:50.359 --> 01:15:55.159 So the book is a SOG code named Dynamite Link 1226 01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:57.239 is going to be in the description below, but buy 1227 01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:02.239 it at your favorite bookseller. It's a fantastic, fantastic like book. 1228 01:16:02.279 --> 01:16:06.880 I mean, it's very, very detailed. But you know, you 1229 01:16:07.920 --> 01:16:10.279 I'm sure was one of the highlights of your career, 1230 01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:14.159 but you also you had a very stellar career. Is 1231 01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.079 there anything from SOG that you want to talk about 1232 01:16:16.079 --> 01:16:18.199 that we missed, because I'd like to talk a little 1233 01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:19.800 bit about your career after that too. 1234 01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:24.720 I would just say that, I mean, at the time, 1235 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:31.520 SAG was that was the tier one, most elite, you know, 1236 01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:38.479 organization out there, and sometimes people read about those missions. 1237 01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:41.960 Hear about the missions now and they just say, you 1238 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:45.960 can't do that. In fact, my father in law watched 1239 01:16:45.960 --> 01:16:49.560 the podcast that I was along with Jocko Willick, and 1240 01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:53.920 he watched it and when he's. 1241 01:16:53.840 --> 01:16:58.119 A iPad, he's very sharp World War two guy. 1242 01:16:58.840 --> 01:17:03.319 And my wife said, well, so what do you think 1243 01:17:03.960 --> 01:17:07.000 and he said, he didn't do that. If you'd done 1244 01:17:07.039 --> 01:17:09.720 all that stuff, he'd be dead. There's no way he 1245 01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:13.800 did that. And you know when you read those stories 1246 01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:17.560 and you hear what the hot guys did, that's the 1247 01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:22.520 typical reaction is you can't do that. Yeah, And I 1248 01:17:22.560 --> 01:17:26.239 have people tell me you couldn't carry that much weight. 1249 01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:29.920 Well we did. I used to carry. 1250 01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:38.560 Fifty magazine fifty twenty round magazines. And I had somebody 1251 01:17:38.720 --> 01:17:43.880 just recently say there's no way you couldn't carry that 1252 01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:48.039 much weight and ammunition, much less all the other stuff 1253 01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:49.600 you put with it, said, well we do. 1254 01:17:50.039 --> 01:17:51.039 Yeah. 1255 01:17:51.319 --> 01:17:54.119 I mean, there was nobody coming to bring you a resupply. 1256 01:17:55.359 --> 01:17:59.479 You had to survive. And in one of the missions 1257 01:17:59.520 --> 01:18:03.760 and books, who there? I mean it we were in contact, 1258 01:18:03.880 --> 01:18:08.199 was helping like twenty twenty one hours, twenty two hours 1259 01:18:08.399 --> 01:18:11.760 before we got out. And you've got to have a 1260 01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:14.880 lot of ammunition, and in a lot of cases you 1261 01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:17.760 end up having to go out and take AK forty 1262 01:18:17.800 --> 01:18:21.319 seven's off of dead bodies and use their weapons and 1263 01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:25.359 ammunition against them because you've already used up all. 1264 01:18:26.039 --> 01:18:26.279 Yeah. 1265 01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:30.399 You know, for kind of the nerds out there who 1266 01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:32.560 want to know this kind of stuff, what was your 1267 01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:34.800 standard like weapon load out? And I'm sure it depended 1268 01:18:34.840 --> 01:18:38.119 on the operation, But you guys were carrying cars, did 1269 01:18:38.199 --> 01:18:40.560 everybody carry a car generally, I mean, do you guys 1270 01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:41.479 have shotguns? 1271 01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:42.960 Were there any like? 1272 01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:47.479 For the for the most part, well in the beginning 1273 01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:52.000 of SOG because you couldn't have anything it said US. 1274 01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:56.800 Usually it was a stun, a stand gun or sweetish 1275 01:18:56.840 --> 01:19:01.600 kad you know, was a non American weapon. And you know, 1276 01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:06.920 by the by the mid sixties, in the late sixties, 1277 01:19:08.119 --> 01:19:12.600 US weapons were so ubiquitous all over that part of 1278 01:19:12.720 --> 01:19:15.800 the world. You know, to have a weapon that had 1279 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:19.159 US stamped on it somewhere, it wasn't that big of 1280 01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:23.159 a deal. So I started carrying car fifteens, you know, 1281 01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:26.319 so they were relatively short. They have the sliding stock 1282 01:19:28.760 --> 01:19:32.600 and you know, twenty round magazines to start with. But 1283 01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:36.079 you know, the Northfield to me, he's had thirty round magazines. 1284 01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:40.840 I mean, that's a big difference. When you engage another 1285 01:19:41.079 --> 01:19:44.560 another group and they've got ten more rounds in their 1286 01:19:44.600 --> 01:19:48.079 magazines than you do, right, I mean, very quickly, you know, 1287 01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:52.359 they can gain fire superiority of you because you've got 1288 01:19:52.399 --> 01:19:54.239 to change out magazines at some point. 1289 01:19:54.560 --> 01:19:55.800 Right. 1290 01:19:55.920 --> 01:20:02.680 So with my team, once I I took over Michigan, 1291 01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:08.680 pretty much the standard load out for fragmentation grenades was 1292 01:20:08.680 --> 01:20:12.640 was five per person. She carried those in a canteen 1293 01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:15.600 pouch or maybe a couple hanging on you. So five 1294 01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:21.119 fragmentation grenades. I changed it to ten. So if I 1295 01:20:21.159 --> 01:20:24.640 took a seven man team out, we had a total 1296 01:20:24.640 --> 01:20:26.399 of seventy frag grenades. 1297 01:20:27.399 --> 01:20:29.239 You know, but you can go through. 1298 01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:32.600 Seventy frag grenades fairly quickly when there's that many people 1299 01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:39.039 coming after you. Most most teams carried thirty five magazines. 1300 01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:43.920 I carried fifty. And one reason for that is. 1301 01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:48.600 I don't like to get shot at, so if you 1302 01:20:48.640 --> 01:20:51.840 shoot at me, I'm going to shoot back, right, you know. 1303 01:20:52.279 --> 01:20:55.640 So I probably shot a little more than the average 1304 01:20:56.199 --> 01:20:59.680 team leader. Plus you know, it gave me some rounds 1305 01:20:59.680 --> 01:21:03.439 I could. I could distribute some magazines if I needed to, 1306 01:21:04.880 --> 01:21:09.479 if the other guys had run out. So we had 1307 01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:13.960 you had that, you'd have a knife of some type. 1308 01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:19.840 I usually carried my kebar. And again if you listen 1309 01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:21.960 to the audio, you don't see what I had. This 1310 01:21:22.159 --> 01:21:27.600 is my actual original k bar that I carried on missions. 1311 01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:31.880 And there are places in there where you will where 1312 01:21:31.920 --> 01:21:34.880 I talk about using this and how I used it, 1313 01:21:35.560 --> 01:21:38.840 and this is the one actually one I was I'm 1314 01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:43.560 talking about in the book. So you had a knife 1315 01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:47.479 you and most people carrid a pistol or some type. 1316 01:21:48.399 --> 01:21:50.720 I got to the point where I carried a high 1317 01:21:50.800 --> 01:21:57.239 standard twenty two long rifle pistol with an integrated silencer 1318 01:21:58.079 --> 01:22:02.079 so I could take out dogs, out trackers and people 1319 01:22:02.159 --> 01:22:04.159 without making too much noise. 1320 01:22:06.399 --> 01:22:10.199 But my load bearing equipment, you know. 1321 01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:17.039 Averaged about thirty five pounds plus my rucksack because I 1322 01:22:17.119 --> 01:22:21.279 also carried the radio because I wanted to be able 1323 01:22:21.279 --> 01:22:27.159 to talk. You know, my rucksack was like seventy pounds 1324 01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:27.680 or more. 1325 01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:30.479 How much water were you taken in there? Because I 1326 01:22:30.479 --> 01:22:31.279 mean some of those. 1327 01:22:31.239 --> 01:22:35.520 Visions usually we started out with if it was a rainy, 1328 01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:38.800 rainy season season, you didn't have to take as much, but. 1329 01:22:40.279 --> 01:22:44.439 Average was like four quarts. Wow, the water you know 1330 01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:47.520 on your load beering gear, you. 1331 01:22:47.560 --> 01:22:53.000 Know, compass map, the survival radio I talked about. I mean, 1332 01:22:53.039 --> 01:22:57.159 this thing's almost five pounds. Yeah, just the radio. Well 1333 01:22:57.199 --> 01:22:59.239 the water alone, isn't it. What is two and a 1334 01:22:59.279 --> 01:23:01.640 half five pounds per quart? I can't er down something 1335 01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:02.000 like that. 1336 01:23:02.159 --> 01:23:08.319 Yeah, yeah, it adds up very quickly. The book Geer. 1337 01:23:08.760 --> 01:23:12.399 In book one, there's a table in there where I've 1338 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:16.359 got listed. I broke gear down into the three levels. 1339 01:23:17.199 --> 01:23:21.600 You know, your survival level that you had to lance resort, 1340 01:23:21.680 --> 01:23:26.199 I've got to have this, and then the tactical level, 1341 01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:31.680 mostly your ammunition and stuff like that, and then you 1342 01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:34.880 mission stuff in the rucksack where you might have. 1343 01:23:35.279 --> 01:23:36.960 The wire tap or. 1344 01:23:39.119 --> 01:23:44.159 Long range camera lenses or you know, special equipment if 1345 01:23:44.199 --> 01:23:46.079 you're going to blow something up, you have a lot 1346 01:23:46.119 --> 01:23:49.720 of extra C four and stuff. But I had it 1347 01:23:49.760 --> 01:23:53.159 so I could drop your rucksack. I could still fight 1348 01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:57.520 if I lost my load bearing gear. I could still 1349 01:23:57.520 --> 01:24:01.359 survive because I had a knife, I had extra I 1350 01:24:01.399 --> 01:24:05.199 have a banditlier around my waist of the magazines that 1351 01:24:05.279 --> 01:24:07.840 would still go with me if I dropped everything out 1352 01:24:09.119 --> 01:24:12.640 Compass it was all me, so map was all in 1353 01:24:12.720 --> 01:24:16.279 my pocket. So I had these different levels and it's 1354 01:24:16.279 --> 01:24:19.039 all broken out in there. And it also talks about 1355 01:24:19.319 --> 01:24:22.560 I might say way yes to give you some idea. 1356 01:24:22.920 --> 01:24:24.039 Yeah, now, I. 1357 01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.680 You know, you had this twenty one year career, and 1358 01:24:27.720 --> 01:24:30.479 I want to ask you. You know you're in this 1359 01:24:31.279 --> 01:24:36.880 very secret program that's you know, people are in secret 1360 01:24:36.920 --> 01:24:40.239 programs now, but you know, because of social media, because 1361 01:24:40.359 --> 01:24:43.000 things like that, people are more aware of what's out 1362 01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:47.359 there these days that you have this career, do they 1363 01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:51.920 give you a cover story of Like, people obviously know 1364 01:24:52.000 --> 01:24:55.399 you're in Vietnam, and you're up until nineteen eighty eight, 1365 01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:58.520 so you're there when a lot of people there are 1366 01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:01.920 very few I assume Vietnam vets left in the military 1367 01:25:02.479 --> 01:25:07.239 near the end of your career. What like when people say, 1368 01:25:07.239 --> 01:25:09.560 what did you do in Vietnam? What can you say? 1369 01:25:11.239 --> 01:25:15.920 Well, I when I when I left SAG and I 1370 01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:19.720 came back to the States, I went to I'm excuse me, 1371 01:25:19.760 --> 01:25:20.680 I went to the Rangers. 1372 01:25:21.159 --> 01:25:21.359 You know. 1373 01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:27.319 So I had forty other instructors that I was with 1374 01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:33.279 that all had combat experience, that's all been Vietnam, and 1375 01:25:33.319 --> 01:25:36.119 that helped us support each other. But when they would 1376 01:25:36.119 --> 01:25:39.760 ask me, you know, I was I went to Vietnam 1377 01:25:39.800 --> 01:25:41.079 and I was in the. 1378 01:25:41.239 --> 01:25:44.439 Special Forces Group, you know, Okay, I had. 1379 01:25:44.279 --> 01:25:48.000 An SF combat patch on, and I just I was 1380 01:25:48.039 --> 01:25:52.079 in Special Forces. And yeah, we did a lot of raids, 1381 01:25:52.159 --> 01:25:57.560 ambushes and different things. But you couldn't mention the word soog. 1382 01:25:57.680 --> 01:26:01.760 You couldn't say we did those things over in other countries. 1383 01:26:02.439 --> 01:26:07.319 And you know, after a while, people were just you know, 1384 01:26:07.520 --> 01:26:10.119 stop asking you things like that they just see a 1385 01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:13.800 combat patch and assume you know, you were just in 1386 01:26:13.880 --> 01:26:15.399 a self group. 1387 01:26:16.199 --> 01:26:20.239 Now did did the army ever like tell you, okay, 1388 01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:23.640 this is officially declassified and give you an official like 1389 01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:26.159 read off and roll back or did you just kind 1390 01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:28.720 of have to figure it out when you could actually 1391 01:26:28.720 --> 01:26:29.560 start talking. 1392 01:26:29.319 --> 01:26:31.960 About it mostly kind of figure it out? 1393 01:26:32.159 --> 01:26:36.159 I mean I had to sign a non disclosure agreement, 1394 01:26:36.319 --> 01:26:43.119 you know when when I volunteered or SAG I had. 1395 01:26:43.359 --> 01:26:47.279 I had to sign a volunteer statement that I was 1396 01:26:47.399 --> 01:26:53.439 volunteering to go anywhere do anything for six months or 1397 01:26:53.479 --> 01:26:57.159 six missions, whichever came first, and then I had to 1398 01:26:57.199 --> 01:27:01.720 sign a separate agreement, a non disclosure agreement that I 1399 01:27:01.800 --> 01:27:06.560 wouldn't say anything about SOG, anything about going into other 1400 01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:13.039 countries or you know, anything with SOG for twenty years. 1401 01:27:13.319 --> 01:27:13.760 Yeah. 1402 01:27:14.159 --> 01:27:21.000 So you know, once SOG shut down, it was twenty 1403 01:27:21.079 --> 01:27:23.920 years before you're supposed to be able to say anything 1404 01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:24.399 about it. 1405 01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:24.920 Yeah. 1406 01:27:25.520 --> 01:27:29.680 Yeah, So, like you said, after you leave Vietnam, you 1407 01:27:29.720 --> 01:27:35.119 go to Ranger School to Jolanaga, right, And what was 1408 01:27:35.119 --> 01:27:35.880 that like for you? 1409 01:27:35.880 --> 01:27:37.760 And I'm sure Ranger School was very different back then 1410 01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:38.760 than it is now. 1411 01:27:41.319 --> 01:27:49.800 Yeah. Back then, we only had to feed you one 1412 01:27:49.840 --> 01:27:54.920 meal a day. Yeah, and that's if when you were 1413 01:27:55.199 --> 01:27:58.720 out on patrol, if whoever the patrol leader was when 1414 01:27:58.720 --> 01:28:03.880 we requested recent lie, if he remembered to request food. 1415 01:28:05.720 --> 01:28:10.119 So if he got carried away on ammunition and smoke 1416 01:28:10.199 --> 01:28:12.560 and all that kind of stuff and forgot to ask 1417 01:28:12.600 --> 01:28:16.560 for food, there wouldn't be any food, even the resupply. 1418 01:28:16.119 --> 01:28:18.680 That day or when the. 1419 01:28:20.159 --> 01:28:24.079 Team went down to pick up the supplies from the 1420 01:28:24.119 --> 01:28:28.279 friendly partisan, if they forgot to ask for the food, 1421 01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:33.960 because it would always be separate from the ammunition, you know, 1422 01:28:34.119 --> 01:28:37.760 so they would very quickly hand you all this ammunition 1423 01:28:37.880 --> 01:28:41.840 to carry back to the to the patrol. But if 1424 01:28:41.880 --> 01:28:45.640 you didn't ask for food, they didn't take oh it's 1425 01:28:45.680 --> 01:28:49.239 over here, so you would go back to the patrol 1426 01:28:49.319 --> 01:28:52.720 and with no food, so you didn't get anything to 1427 01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:53.399 eat that day. 1428 01:28:53.800 --> 01:28:56.920 I can't imagine that their pure evaluations were that good. 1429 01:29:00.159 --> 01:29:03.119 But it was also like you know, now it's it's 1430 01:29:03.159 --> 01:29:06.359 a leadership school, it's under trade OC, but back then 1431 01:29:06.439 --> 01:29:09.720 it was still very like combat focused, right. 1432 01:29:09.920 --> 01:29:14.279 Very preparing combat and the leadership. But one of the 1433 01:29:14.279 --> 01:29:20.199 things back then, you know, they wanted you to be 1434 01:29:20.239 --> 01:29:23.520 an E five or or hire you know, to come. 1435 01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:25.600 They wanted you to have a certain amount of time 1436 01:29:25.640 --> 01:29:28.880 in the military before you came to Rangers School. They 1437 01:29:28.920 --> 01:29:32.359 wanted you they wanted you basically to show up there 1438 01:29:32.840 --> 01:29:35.840 and demonstrate that you could do all this stuff and 1439 01:29:35.880 --> 01:29:39.880 that you could tough it out and make it through everything. 1440 01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:42.600 And then. 1441 01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:49.560 They started backing away on you know, at least when 1442 01:29:49.560 --> 01:29:53.640 you were not out in the woods on patrol, they 1443 01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:57.279 had to give you three meals a day, couldn't drop 1444 01:29:57.319 --> 01:29:59.520 you for more than fifty push ups at the time, 1445 01:30:00.439 --> 01:30:03.800 It couldn't make you low crawl from the classroom down 1446 01:30:03.840 --> 01:30:08.359 to the mess hall, down the asphalt as a company. 1447 01:30:09.119 --> 01:30:11.359 I mean, there are a lot of you know, things 1448 01:30:11.439 --> 01:30:15.199 like that that were just hardship things that they started 1449 01:30:15.239 --> 01:30:15.800 taking out. 1450 01:30:17.039 --> 01:30:21.399 And you know, it was still still tough to go out. 1451 01:30:21.199 --> 01:30:25.920 There for that long sure, And now now you go 1452 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:30.800 you actually go through a pre ranger course before you 1453 01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:34.359 go to Ranger School, and if you're in the seventy fifth, 1454 01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:41.399 you know, you you have to go through the selection 1455 01:30:41.520 --> 01:30:45.840 thing to get into the seventy fifth and then once 1456 01:30:45.880 --> 01:30:49.359 you're in, you you know, have an opportunity to volunteer 1457 01:30:49.359 --> 01:30:50.680 to go to a Ranger school. 1458 01:30:52.680 --> 01:30:56.399 Yeah, and back then also one of the things you 1459 01:30:56.479 --> 01:30:59.880 mentioned was that all the instructors had to be combat that. 1460 01:31:00.399 --> 01:31:02.760 Right, everybody was a combat vet. 1461 01:31:05.359 --> 01:31:09.600 And you know when when I was when I went 1462 01:31:09.720 --> 01:31:18.600 up there, and actually the Delanaga is now is now 1463 01:31:18.680 --> 01:31:27.880 the fifth Ranger Battalion, right right, So when I went 1464 01:31:27.960 --> 01:31:37.359 up the here, I created and stood up the Halo Team, trained, 1465 01:31:37.359 --> 01:31:41.720 the Halo team, led the Halo Team. I did demonstrations 1466 01:31:42.399 --> 01:31:50.800 all around you know Halo. I actually started the parachute 1467 01:31:50.920 --> 01:31:55.119 club at the North Georgia what was then North Georgia 1468 01:31:55.159 --> 01:31:59.560 Military College that's there in Delanaga, started their parachute club 1469 01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:04.920 back up train the students, threw them out in a way, 1470 01:32:05.760 --> 01:32:10.600 I put in, you know, Halo missions into the not 1471 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:14.279 the training that the students got to do, but that 1472 01:32:15.159 --> 01:32:17.920 they would be out and get a message. They had 1473 01:32:17.920 --> 01:32:20.920 to pick up a pilot that had been shot down, 1474 01:32:21.600 --> 01:32:25.800 and I would parachute in. They'd see my parachute coming down, 1475 01:32:26.159 --> 01:32:27.439 they'd have to come find me. 1476 01:32:29.279 --> 01:32:30.800 So we did a lot of things like that. 1477 01:32:30.880 --> 01:32:36.600 We worked on tactical use of Halo and more advanced 1478 01:32:36.920 --> 01:32:43.079 tactical procedures and techniques like we used in Saga just 1479 01:32:43.119 --> 01:32:46.920 didn't say that's where it came from. We actually went 1480 01:32:46.960 --> 01:32:50.800 out and set up desert training train the eighty second 1481 01:32:50.960 --> 01:32:55.520 and some other units in desert warfare before they made 1482 01:32:55.560 --> 01:32:58.720 their first trip to the Middle East. 1483 01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:05.079 We set up I wrote a lot of the. 1484 01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:09.880 Training and things for the desert phase of ranger school. 1485 01:33:10.079 --> 01:33:13.159 So for a period of time there was a fourth 1486 01:33:13.199 --> 01:33:17.720 phase of ranger training that was actually in the desert, 1487 01:33:18.439 --> 01:33:22.560 and it was desert training, and they eventually took that out, but. 1488 01:33:24.039 --> 01:33:25.239 That was in there for a while. 1489 01:33:25.279 --> 01:33:29.000 So I did a lot of things there in addition 1490 01:33:29.159 --> 01:33:32.239 to just you know, train the rangers. 1491 01:33:33.560 --> 01:33:36.600 And then when you left, when you left there, you 1492 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:37.319 went to. 1493 01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:43.880 The second idea in Korea, and they didn't have a 1494 01:33:43.960 --> 01:33:47.159 ranger company there at the time, so that was kind 1495 01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:47.920 of your initiative. 1496 01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:50.760 Kicked that off, right, I had. 1497 01:33:51.439 --> 01:33:57.640 I talked to General Emerson, the second Division Commander, before 1498 01:33:58.279 --> 01:34:02.840 I went in route to Korea. I went through the 1499 01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:08.199 Inmstry Officers Advanced Course at Fort Benning, and so when 1500 01:34:08.199 --> 01:34:12.560 I got the orders going to Korea, I sent him 1501 01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:15.359 a letter and said, you know, here's my background, this 1502 01:34:15.399 --> 01:34:17.199 is what I want to do. When I get there. 1503 01:34:17.640 --> 01:34:22.760 I can give you a ranger company of your own 1504 01:34:23.119 --> 01:34:25.560 that you can use, that can do anything that a 1505 01:34:25.680 --> 01:34:30.680 ranger company can do. He was Special Forces. He got 1506 01:34:30.720 --> 01:34:33.680 all excited about it, so gave me a company. When 1507 01:34:33.760 --> 01:34:40.960 I first got there, I started training them everything from 1508 01:34:41.000 --> 01:34:46.079 being picked up on ropes, you know, helicopter assaults, things 1509 01:34:46.159 --> 01:34:55.560 like that. And also, you know, we became the quick 1510 01:34:55.640 --> 01:35:02.800 reaction force for the nuclear sites. Any any threat developed 1511 01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:07.520 around the nuclear site we were. There were periods of 1512 01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.760 time when we were on a thirty minute alert to 1513 01:35:10.920 --> 01:35:12.000 launch and go there. 1514 01:35:12.199 --> 01:35:14.079 But when I first went down to. 1515 01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:20.479 Where our launch site was, when I saw the foot 1516 01:35:20.520 --> 01:35:26.199 lockers that had the live AMMO story in it, I 1517 01:35:26.239 --> 01:35:28.079 told my first arts and I said, you know, I 1518 01:35:29.079 --> 01:35:33.319 don't feel good about our ammunition at all. I'm looking 1519 01:35:33.359 --> 01:35:36.319 at those foot lockers. It looks to me like based 1520 01:35:36.359 --> 01:35:38.560 on those steel bands that are around them and how 1521 01:35:38.640 --> 01:35:43.119 rusty they are, no one's looked at those magazines in 1522 01:35:43.159 --> 01:35:47.840 there in a long time. You know, get get some cutters, 1523 01:35:48.720 --> 01:35:52.520 open one up and the court martials. You're going to 1524 01:35:52.520 --> 01:35:54.399 get court martial if you open one of those lights. 1525 01:35:54.399 --> 01:35:58.279 You can't get get the cutters. Yeah, I'm going to 1526 01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:01.560 open these. I'll open one. We'll see what that one 1527 01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:04.840 looks like, and based on that, we'll decide about the others. 1528 01:36:05.720 --> 01:36:09.640 The magazines were so corroded. I mean you could barely 1529 01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:12.439 get the rounds out of the magazines with like a 1530 01:36:12.479 --> 01:36:14.000 screwdriver and prime out. 1531 01:36:14.640 --> 01:36:19.159 I mean we couldn't. Nobody's weapon would have powered. 1532 01:36:20.319 --> 01:36:23.640 I mean we'd have been standing near, you know, with 1533 01:36:23.720 --> 01:36:26.600 the blades turning waiting on us, you know, on the helicopters, 1534 01:36:26.640 --> 01:36:28.279 with no ammunition to go. 1535 01:36:29.279 --> 01:36:30.560 So anyway, I got that. 1536 01:36:30.479 --> 01:36:34.359 Resolved, and then, uh, you know, based on my training, 1537 01:36:34.479 --> 01:36:36.920 it was you got to rehearse, you got to practice. 1538 01:36:36.960 --> 01:36:44.079 So really go out and make an assault into you know, 1539 01:36:44.439 --> 01:36:49.199 one of the sights and see how that goes. It 1540 01:36:49.239 --> 01:36:51.159 didn't go well at all because when we got to 1541 01:36:51.199 --> 01:36:56.199 the landing zone, it was trees. For twenty years, they 1542 01:36:56.239 --> 01:36:58.479 hadn't done anything till the landings off. Trees had grown 1543 01:36:58.560 --> 01:37:01.520 up and so we couldn't land and all the sites 1544 01:37:01.560 --> 01:37:03.319 so like that so. 1545 01:37:05.560 --> 01:37:10.159 Created pretty big mess. I mean, it wasn't my fault. 1546 01:37:10.239 --> 01:37:12.640 I just happened to be the one that said I 1547 01:37:12.680 --> 01:37:14.039 want to test this stuff out. 1548 01:37:15.720 --> 01:37:18.439 But yeah, I had a good time in Korea. 1549 01:37:18.479 --> 01:37:21.720 It was I mean there were all kinds of competitions. 1550 01:37:21.760 --> 01:37:22.880 There are something that. 1551 01:37:24.279 --> 01:37:31.399 The division commander had put together called Combat Football Ferocious Game, 1552 01:37:32.119 --> 01:37:35.680 and my company won it both times. 1553 01:37:35.880 --> 01:37:36.720 While we were there. 1554 01:37:37.319 --> 01:37:43.159 We won the division championship, we won the taekwondo you 1555 01:37:43.199 --> 01:37:48.960 know championship, we won the Infantry platoons and stuff championships. 1556 01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:55.359 So we were selected to put on the demonstration when 1557 01:37:55.359 --> 01:38:01.520 the President came over, we put on the Ranger capabilities demonstration, 1558 01:38:02.119 --> 01:38:06.000 you know, for him that you know, it was pretty 1559 01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:09.359 impressive and he really liked so we did a lot 1560 01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:13.680 of things. I had a great time with it, and 1561 01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:17.039 then I came from there back to Fort Bragg and 1562 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:22.319 ended up in G three and eventually withou the Emergency 1563 01:38:22.359 --> 01:38:28.439 Rette and its department team where we would test out 1564 01:38:29.640 --> 01:38:35.199 the Ranger battalions and the Special Forces battalions. We would 1565 01:38:35.199 --> 01:38:37.800 go in and to them at one o'clock in the morning, 1566 01:38:37.880 --> 01:38:40.720 hand them a set of orders. You are now activated, 1567 01:38:40.920 --> 01:38:44.319 you know, two hours of wheels up. We'll give you 1568 01:38:44.359 --> 01:38:49.399 the briefing on you know, on the plane, is what 1569 01:38:49.399 --> 01:38:53.560 your mission is, where you're going, and then evaluate their 1570 01:38:53.720 --> 01:38:57.079 capability to actually do it. 1571 01:38:57.960 --> 01:38:59.159 And how was that for you? 1572 01:39:00.079 --> 01:39:00.199 Oh? 1573 01:39:00.199 --> 01:39:00.680 I love it? 1574 01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:04.439 Yeah, I mean because I was back, you know, and 1575 01:39:05.279 --> 01:39:10.520 the way I felt I was back when my my people, right, rangers, 1576 01:39:11.119 --> 01:39:14.560 those are my people. Yeah, I got a chance to 1577 01:39:14.600 --> 01:39:17.840 be willing to go out on these All of these 1578 01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:21.119 things were classified, you know, when they were going to happen, 1579 01:39:21.199 --> 01:39:24.239 where it was going to take place, and and what 1580 01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:26.880 happened when you got there and that we went to 1581 01:39:26.960 --> 01:39:31.119 some cool places and you know, and I enjoyed that. 1582 01:39:32.319 --> 01:39:38.079 And then in seventy nine you, uh wait, am I 1583 01:39:38.119 --> 01:39:43.479 getting ahead here? You you you became a teacher and 1584 01:39:43.520 --> 01:39:48.159 assistant professor, right and and uh r o TC no. 1585 01:39:49.159 --> 01:39:51.079 Well sort of yes, Okay. 1586 01:39:53.840 --> 01:39:57.640 My assignments officer called while I was at BRAG and said, 1587 01:39:58.920 --> 01:40:04.920 how would you like to you go to degree completion 1588 01:40:05.439 --> 01:40:11.479 to complete a master's degree? Said, well, that sounds pretty cool. 1589 01:40:13.439 --> 01:40:16.159 So as I thought about that, I decided, if I 1590 01:40:16.279 --> 01:40:20.520 was going to go to school and work on a master's. 1591 01:40:20.439 --> 01:40:22.720 Why not just get a doctorate? 1592 01:40:23.439 --> 01:40:27.359 If I could find the right school that would give 1593 01:40:27.399 --> 01:40:31.359 me credit for residency time while I was working on 1594 01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:35.319 the masters And it was a school that had an 1595 01:40:35.399 --> 01:40:39.640 ROTC department that I could you know, when I finished 1596 01:40:39.640 --> 01:40:43.279 the master's degree, i'd be assigned to the ROALTC department. 1597 01:40:44.319 --> 01:40:47.239 That would give me enough time to finish the doctorate? 1598 01:40:47.319 --> 01:40:47.840 What was it? 1599 01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:53.319 So I did that at the University of Georgia. Oh, 1600 01:40:53.359 --> 01:40:58.359 I got the master's degree, started working for the ROALTC department, 1601 01:40:58.720 --> 01:41:02.600 finished my doctorate, you know, while I was there, and 1602 01:41:02.720 --> 01:41:11.640 started working on some special op step what happens if 1603 01:41:11.680 --> 01:41:13.680 you have to go for a long period of time 1604 01:41:14.119 --> 01:41:14.960 without sleep. 1605 01:41:16.199 --> 01:41:20.199 So that then they sent me to. 1606 01:41:22.159 --> 01:41:27.199 The Commanding General Staff College out at Leavenworth, and from 1607 01:41:27.239 --> 01:41:32.039 there they assigned me to the Airline Battle two thousand team, 1608 01:41:32.279 --> 01:41:35.399 which was figuring out how we're going to fight war 1609 01:41:36.600 --> 01:41:40.039 in the twenty first century. So I had done a 1610 01:41:40.039 --> 01:41:46.520 lot of research on sleep and high performing leadership, so 1611 01:41:46.560 --> 01:41:50.279 they put me on that and eventually I started going 1612 01:41:50.319 --> 01:41:56.600 around briefing the NATO countries on this is how we're 1613 01:41:56.600 --> 01:42:01.920 going to do special ops in twenty first century and 1614 01:42:01.960 --> 01:42:03.560 so that you know, that was fun. 1615 01:42:04.279 --> 01:42:06.960 Can can I ask you what was it like? Because 1616 01:42:07.000 --> 01:42:12.640 this is seventy nine, so the I'm assuming like morale 1617 01:42:12.720 --> 01:42:14.880 is getting a little bit better post Vietnam, but it's 1618 01:42:14.920 --> 01:42:16.079 still not super high. 1619 01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:18.439 So what is it like being part of an r 1620 01:42:18.479 --> 01:42:20.039 OTC at that time? 1621 01:42:22.199 --> 01:42:27.880 At that time particularly University of Georgia. I mean it 1622 01:42:27.960 --> 01:42:33.399 was it was fine. Yeah, people people liked the military there. 1623 01:42:33.600 --> 01:42:36.960 The I mean Georgia was a land grant college. So 1624 01:42:37.199 --> 01:42:40.479 I mean, at one point in its history, if you 1625 01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:42.760 if you were a male and you went to Georgia, 1626 01:42:42.840 --> 01:42:46.640 you had to be in ROTC. The first two years, 1627 01:42:46.880 --> 01:42:50.760 oh interesting, but that went away, you know a number 1628 01:42:50.800 --> 01:42:55.000 of years back. But so it was volunteer you could join, 1629 01:42:55.359 --> 01:42:59.560 had a strong, strong program. We had a ranger company 1630 01:43:00.479 --> 01:43:05.439 within the program there, and I was the advisor trainer 1631 01:43:05.560 --> 01:43:11.079 for the ranger company, and you know, we got along 1632 01:43:11.119 --> 01:43:14.359 well with people on campus, with the exception of the 1633 01:43:14.399 --> 01:43:19.800 Air Force r lt C. I had a little friction there. 1634 01:43:19.840 --> 01:43:21.800 I had to be careful because my guys would get 1635 01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:24.640 so fired up they'd want to go over and steal 1636 01:43:24.720 --> 01:43:30.359 their little airplanes and things and you know, create an issue. 1637 01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:36.039 But uh, that was that was good. 1638 01:43:36.079 --> 01:43:40.760 And then you know, I went to Leavenworth and worked 1639 01:43:40.800 --> 01:43:45.239 out there, and then eventually I got a call from 1640 01:43:45.239 --> 01:43:49.000 an assignments officer again and said, how would you like 1641 01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:52.439 to go back to Georgia and be you know, we 1642 01:43:52.479 --> 01:43:56.319 called we call these RLTC departments battalions now, so you 1643 01:43:56.359 --> 01:44:01.800 would go back there and be the battalion commander. And 1644 01:44:01.880 --> 01:44:04.479 I said, you know why why, I mean, why do 1645 01:44:04.560 --> 01:44:09.560 you offer me this? I said, well, it's always been 1646 01:44:09.640 --> 01:44:14.560 an six position, but the Army's changed it to now 1647 01:44:14.600 --> 01:44:18.720 it's an O five position. And Georgia says they're not 1648 01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:20.000 going to accept. 1649 01:44:19.600 --> 01:44:20.279 An O five. 1650 01:44:22.199 --> 01:44:25.359 And every O five's name that we sent down there 1651 01:44:26.079 --> 01:44:33.039 gets rejected for some reason. And then we remembered you, uh, 1652 01:44:33.600 --> 01:44:36.920 you already been there once for an assignment. You got 1653 01:44:36.920 --> 01:44:41.079 a master's and a pH d from their university. You 1654 01:44:41.159 --> 01:44:46.680 meet all the education you know requirements, the experience requirements. 1655 01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:51.920 They can't say no to you. I said, try it 1656 01:44:51.920 --> 01:44:56.640 and see. So they took me and I ended up 1657 01:44:56.840 --> 01:45:00.399 having that as my uh, you know, final assignment in 1658 01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:01.079 the military. 1659 01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:05.560 That's great, I mean it's kind of a nice way 1660 01:45:05.560 --> 01:45:07.760 to ease out, right, yeah. 1661 01:45:07.960 --> 01:45:08.640 Yeah. 1662 01:45:08.760 --> 01:45:11.439 And then post military, like what did you do twenty 1663 01:45:11.479 --> 01:45:16.640 one years? And then you're out and then go fishing 1664 01:45:16.880 --> 01:45:18.479 or like what did you do after that? 1665 01:45:19.439 --> 01:45:24.439 Well, I'd always thought the training and things that we 1666 01:45:24.479 --> 01:45:29.279 did in the military were pretty cool. Before I got out, 1667 01:45:29.439 --> 01:45:36.560 I started using some leave and going to some civilian 1668 01:45:36.720 --> 01:45:40.760 corporate type organizations and saying, you know, let me come 1669 01:45:40.800 --> 01:45:45.600 in and do some leadership training, team building, whatever. And 1670 01:45:46.520 --> 01:45:48.680 you know, so I was doing a little bit of 1671 01:45:48.720 --> 01:45:52.800 that before I actually got out, and the you know, 1672 01:45:53.039 --> 01:45:54.159 the civilians loved it. 1673 01:45:54.680 --> 01:45:55.039 Yeah. 1674 01:45:56.159 --> 01:46:00.720 I started a company, my Performing Systems, where it was 1675 01:46:00.920 --> 01:46:07.239 executive leadership and strategic planning and all that kind of stuff. 1676 01:46:07.279 --> 01:46:15.840 Team building, and in the nineties, outdoor training was big. 1677 01:46:16.720 --> 01:46:19.520 You know, you take a corporate group out into the 1678 01:46:19.520 --> 01:46:25.079 woods and you have them move across ropes, bridges and stuff, 1679 01:46:25.119 --> 01:46:28.800 and the treetops, you have them rerepeled off a cliff whatever. 1680 01:46:29.800 --> 01:46:34.199 I mean, what better job could I have given my background. 1681 01:46:34.880 --> 01:46:37.359 So they would take them out and but we would 1682 01:46:37.600 --> 01:46:39.000 they would have that kind of training. 1683 01:46:39.079 --> 01:46:41.199 But then I would. 1684 01:46:40.960 --> 01:46:46.359 Pick obstacles, design obstacles that mirrored some problem they were 1685 01:46:46.399 --> 01:46:51.319 having with their team, and so they'd have to take 1686 01:46:51.319 --> 01:46:54.319 them out. They'd have to engage you know, that obstacle. 1687 01:46:54.640 --> 01:46:57.960 And at some point somebody would say, you know, we're 1688 01:46:58.000 --> 01:47:01.880 doing the same thing, the same issues that we have 1689 01:47:02.119 --> 01:47:06.399 every day at work, and we just we we overcame 1690 01:47:06.439 --> 01:47:10.560 it here and we got through this obstacle. Why can't 1691 01:47:10.560 --> 01:47:14.600 we do that at work? So then you know, I 1692 01:47:14.760 --> 01:47:16.960 work with them all, Okay, this is how you do that. 1693 01:47:18.479 --> 01:47:22.560 And in the process of doing all that, we would 1694 01:47:22.640 --> 01:47:26.960 be putting their strategic plan together or building their executive 1695 01:47:27.000 --> 01:47:30.399 team or you know, things like that. And they loved it. 1696 01:47:30.560 --> 01:47:33.720 But you know, by the time, you know, the two 1697 01:47:33.800 --> 01:47:38.119 thousands came along, everybody said, you know, been there, done that, 1698 01:47:38.239 --> 01:47:40.640 got the T shirt? What else you got? I don't 1699 01:47:40.640 --> 01:47:43.640 want to, you know, jump off a cliff or whatever, 1700 01:47:43.800 --> 01:47:47.960 but right, you know, then more of my work became 1701 01:47:48.079 --> 01:47:54.840 focused around stress, decision making under stress. So working with 1702 01:47:55.079 --> 01:47:58.520 law enforcement, working with continuing to work with you know, 1703 01:47:58.880 --> 01:48:06.279 special ops, working with nuclear facilities. It's very stressful in 1704 01:48:06.319 --> 01:48:10.079 the control room and those guys in there need to 1705 01:48:10.399 --> 01:48:14.760 need training and doing a lot more with vets because 1706 01:48:14.880 --> 01:48:19.159 vets need some help. You know, you need somebody you 1707 01:48:19.199 --> 01:48:23.640 can talk to, uh that that knows what you're talking about, 1708 01:48:24.600 --> 01:48:27.239 you because I vets tell me all the time. You 1709 01:48:27.279 --> 01:48:29.760 know what, I'm there in the VA. I go talk 1710 01:48:29.800 --> 01:48:34.039 to doctor whatever his or her name is, And when 1711 01:48:34.039 --> 01:48:37.600 I'm trying to explain to them what I'm experiencing, I 1712 01:48:37.640 --> 01:48:40.479 can see it's going right over their head. They no 1713 01:48:40.880 --> 01:48:44.279 clue what I'm talking about. They've read some stuff in 1714 01:48:44.319 --> 01:48:46.800 a book. They've never experienced it, so they don't know 1715 01:48:46.840 --> 01:48:50.880 what I'm talking about. So, you know, I do a 1716 01:48:51.039 --> 01:48:57.560 lot of counseling and stuff with vets, do different programs 1717 01:48:57.600 --> 01:49:01.439 for them. So it's been a big part of our 1718 01:49:01.560 --> 01:49:03.239 organization over the years too. 1719 01:49:03.600 --> 01:49:06.039 You know, one of the things that's really been highlighted 1720 01:49:06.640 --> 01:49:10.279 after the Global War on Terror is you know, veteran issues, 1721 01:49:10.319 --> 01:49:14.520 post traumatic stress, things like that. After Vietnam, there was 1722 01:49:14.560 --> 01:49:17.319 this big public scare about post traumatic stress, right the 1723 01:49:17.359 --> 01:49:20.279 movie that you know, made for TV movies about a 1724 01:49:20.399 --> 01:49:23.840 VET like having flashbacks and killing people in the office, 1725 01:49:23.840 --> 01:49:28.680 stuff like that. What kind of like resources were there. 1726 01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:31.840 Resources for you guys back then? How were guys dealing 1727 01:49:31.880 --> 01:49:32.279 with it? 1728 01:49:33.039 --> 01:49:35.279 I mean, you know, obviously it's become a lot more 1729 01:49:35.319 --> 01:49:37.439 acceptable to talk about now, things like that. 1730 01:49:38.880 --> 01:49:43.640 Yeah, it was difficult. I mean if you wanted to 1731 01:49:43.760 --> 01:49:47.840 end your career, you know, get diagnosed as I am 1732 01:49:47.880 --> 01:49:52.159 in PTSD, huh, particularly if you want to be in 1733 01:49:52.199 --> 01:49:57.159 special ops. I mean special ops. I mean you have 1734 01:49:57.279 --> 01:50:03.039 to be physically feel across the board. So like hearing, 1735 01:50:03.279 --> 01:50:09.880 for example, if you have significant hearing loss, and back 1736 01:50:10.640 --> 01:50:16.720 in those days, we didn't have the headsets. You didn't 1737 01:50:16.800 --> 01:50:22.920 have anything except hair, so trying to maintain you know, 1738 01:50:23.199 --> 01:50:28.279 excellent hearing it was very difficult because car fifteens are 1739 01:50:28.359 --> 01:50:33.840 very loud, frag grenades are very loud, explosions, all that 1740 01:50:33.880 --> 01:50:40.039 kind of stuff. But if you were diagnosed with hearing loss, 1741 01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:45.279 you couldn't be in Halo anymore, you couldn't jump, you 1742 01:50:45.359 --> 01:50:48.680 couldn't be special lots. So there were all kinds of 1743 01:50:48.720 --> 01:50:53.079 things like that is not even PTSD. You know, I 1744 01:50:53.159 --> 01:50:57.840 used to pull shrapnel out if I could get it out. 1745 01:50:58.000 --> 01:51:01.560 I didn't say anything about it, and a lot of 1746 01:51:01.560 --> 01:51:05.640 people did that because you don't you don't want to 1747 01:51:05.680 --> 01:51:10.720 have to go and not be special ops anymore. And 1748 01:51:10.760 --> 01:51:13.359 then we kind of moved to a phase where we've 1749 01:51:13.439 --> 01:51:18.720 talked about PTSD, but it was still you know, once 1750 01:51:18.760 --> 01:51:23.279 it got on your record, you know, regardless of what 1751 01:51:23.359 --> 01:51:26.600 they were telling you, you were kind of at the 1752 01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:30.399 end of the road. They trying to do a better 1753 01:51:30.520 --> 01:51:38.359 job now, But I don't think the people who are 1754 01:51:38.520 --> 01:51:46.199 working with the military quite understand we all have a limit. 1755 01:51:47.720 --> 01:51:51.119 And I mentioned to you earlier that when you signed 1756 01:51:51.199 --> 01:51:54.039 up for a SOOG, you signed a statement that said 1757 01:51:54.279 --> 01:51:58.479 six missions or six months whichever comes first. So there 1758 01:51:58.560 --> 01:52:01.920 was a recognition that these things are going to be 1759 01:52:02.039 --> 01:52:05.880 very stressful. But in reality, you could go out on 1760 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:10.600 the first mission and come back and say, I can't 1761 01:52:10.680 --> 01:52:13.920 do that anymore. I had no clue that's what I 1762 01:52:14.039 --> 01:52:17.319 was going to be like. And you could get off 1763 01:52:17.319 --> 01:52:20.920 the team and get on a get another job within 1764 01:52:21.079 --> 01:52:25.840 SOG where you are not an operator anymore, and still 1765 01:52:26.880 --> 01:52:29.600 you know, can continue to work. You just went going 1766 01:52:29.640 --> 01:52:32.680 outside the wire and doing things or across the border. 1767 01:52:35.600 --> 01:52:39.159 So you know, I do, like I said, do things 1768 01:52:39.439 --> 01:52:46.199 with groups of vets. I created an assessment that I 1769 01:52:46.279 --> 01:52:51.000 call the Arsenal seven Best Backed Practices of Stress Resilience. 1770 01:52:51.920 --> 01:52:58.520 And nowhere, nowhere in that questionnaire does it ask you 1771 01:52:59.239 --> 01:53:02.439 have you cons that are arming yourself in the last 1772 01:53:02.520 --> 01:53:06.279 two weeks? Have you considered arming someone else in the 1773 01:53:06.359 --> 01:53:09.640 last two weeks? I mean, if you go to VA 1774 01:53:10.720 --> 01:53:12.800 and you take a question here, it's going to ask 1775 01:53:12.840 --> 01:53:17.920 you that you know what Arsenal goes through. And you 1776 01:53:18.079 --> 01:53:21.520 never see that kind of question in there, but it 1777 01:53:21.600 --> 01:53:24.000 can still give you an indication of where you are, 1778 01:53:24.399 --> 01:53:26.479 give you a snapshot of this is where you are 1779 01:53:26.600 --> 01:53:30.279 right now, and here's a list of things you need 1780 01:53:30.359 --> 01:53:33.560 to go do that's specific to you based on how 1781 01:53:33.600 --> 01:53:34.760 you answered the questions. 1782 01:53:35.880 --> 01:53:40.079 And the Navy is using it more and more. I 1783 01:53:40.279 --> 01:53:43.319 just had a Marine group. 1784 01:53:45.520 --> 01:53:50.319 Order a bunch bunch of them this past week and 1785 01:53:50.359 --> 01:53:55.720 it's spreading because they see it's a way to let 1786 01:53:55.760 --> 01:54:01.640 people help themselves and get them help without them restoring 1787 01:54:01.680 --> 01:54:02.279 their career. 1788 01:54:02.920 --> 01:54:05.319 Where can people find that if they're interested. 1789 01:54:04.960 --> 01:54:12.239 In It's on my website, but I can what's your website? 1790 01:54:14.159 --> 01:54:17.840 We'll send Okay, we'll have it. We'll have your website 1791 01:54:17.880 --> 01:54:19.920 in link below. But for the people who are listening, 1792 01:54:20.359 --> 01:54:22.239 do you want to give them your website? 1793 01:54:23.319 --> 01:54:27.479 Yeah, it's just the h P s y S dot 1794 01:54:27.520 --> 01:54:31.960 com w w W h P s y s dot 1795 01:54:32.000 --> 01:54:37.560 com Hotel Poppy. You'll see the arsenal or how you 1796 01:54:37.600 --> 01:54:45.600 can get to the arsenal. But yeah, we can put fantastic. Yeah. 1797 01:54:45.960 --> 01:54:49.359 Before we get to question, is is there anything. 1798 01:54:49.159 --> 01:54:53.159 That we've left out tonight and anything that we didn't 1799 01:54:53.199 --> 01:54:55.960 cover that you feel like we should have. 1800 01:54:58.840 --> 01:55:01.159 I mean, we're getting into some things now that you know. 1801 01:55:01.199 --> 01:55:03.039 I have a lot of passion around I have a 1802 01:55:03.079 --> 01:55:08.079 lot of passion around special ot stuff, but also around uh, 1803 01:55:08.520 --> 01:55:11.800 the operators who you have to go out and do 1804 01:55:11.880 --> 01:55:15.680 that and then live with it afterwards. I mean, it 1805 01:55:15.840 --> 01:55:20.000 sounds cool to go out and do it, but you know, 1806 01:55:20.079 --> 01:55:22.840 you pay a price short more times you go out there. 1807 01:55:22.960 --> 01:55:26.000 You guys, you guys know it. You can only kick 1808 01:55:26.039 --> 01:55:27.399 so many doors down. 1809 01:55:27.960 --> 01:55:29.039 Uh. 1810 01:55:29.119 --> 01:55:32.960 You know, before you uh you get blown away, or 1811 01:55:33.000 --> 01:55:36.680 before you mentally uh you know can't do it or 1812 01:55:37.159 --> 01:55:40.079 or have difficulty going forward. 1813 01:55:41.039 --> 01:55:42.760 But there are ways to approached that. 1814 01:55:42.840 --> 01:55:45.920 There are ways that you and I can work together 1815 01:55:46.039 --> 01:55:52.000 when we're working with uh, with other groups, we put 1816 01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:56.000 a lot of emphasis on buddies. You know, in ranger school, 1817 01:55:56.039 --> 01:55:58.520 you have a ranger buddy, and you and your ranger 1818 01:55:58.520 --> 01:56:01.520 buddy have to take care of these other I watch you, 1819 01:56:01.520 --> 01:56:05.079 you watch me, and I take care of you, and 1820 01:56:05.239 --> 01:56:07.880 you take care of me, and I do the same things. 1821 01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:11.640 Even in corporate America, I put them in buddy teams. 1822 01:56:12.520 --> 01:56:15.439 Every day when you come into work, you check out 1823 01:56:15.439 --> 01:56:19.279 your buddy. And if you're you're having an issue, like 1824 01:56:20.159 --> 01:56:23.159 you stayed up watching the football game last night and 1825 01:56:24.159 --> 01:56:27.399 maybe you drink a lot of beer and you're not 1826 01:56:27.520 --> 01:56:30.800 at the top of your game this morning, you tell 1827 01:56:30.840 --> 01:56:32.039 you what you tell your buddy. 1828 01:56:32.359 --> 01:56:32.960 Keep an eye on. 1829 01:56:34.039 --> 01:56:36.479 You know, there's some decisions and things I have to 1830 01:56:36.800 --> 01:56:40.840 make today kind of you know, watch me if you 1831 01:56:40.920 --> 01:56:45.239 see see me, you know, getting a little whacky or whatever. 1832 01:56:45.960 --> 01:56:48.119 You know, take me on to the side. Let's talk. 1833 01:56:48.720 --> 01:56:52.239 Are there are there things that you would say and 1834 01:56:52.600 --> 01:56:56.760 you know that are basic or common knowledge in the 1835 01:56:56.800 --> 01:57:00.239 military and military leadership that the civilian world just straight 1836 01:57:00.319 --> 01:57:00.880 up misses. 1837 01:57:03.880 --> 01:57:08.680 When when I got out of the army and started 1838 01:57:08.680 --> 01:57:12.239 doing the corporate work, I never said I was in 1839 01:57:12.239 --> 01:57:19.119 the military. Because if you said you were in the 1840 01:57:19.159 --> 01:57:24.079 military and you recently retired, all of a sudden in 1841 01:57:24.279 --> 01:57:29.359 corporate America, that meant you had your Your philosophy of 1842 01:57:29.439 --> 01:57:31.239 leadership was to be a dictator. 1843 01:57:32.279 --> 01:57:34.479 You boss people around, you jerk them around. 1844 01:57:34.560 --> 01:57:37.039 When I tell you to do something, you say, if 1845 01:57:37.119 --> 01:57:41.119 I tell you to jump, you say how high? And 1846 01:57:41.239 --> 01:57:45.680 that was people general view of what the military was 1847 01:57:45.840 --> 01:57:49.800 like and what military leadership was like. So I didn't 1848 01:57:49.840 --> 01:57:55.159 mention military until nine to eleven. Once not eleven happened 1849 01:57:55.520 --> 01:57:58.039 all of a sudden, If you were you were a 1850 01:57:58.039 --> 01:58:02.760 military person, that was great. I think you appreciate your service. 1851 01:58:02.800 --> 01:58:10.920 But but before that, they just had a different philosophy 1852 01:58:11.279 --> 01:58:14.640 and you know later there'd be times when people would 1853 01:58:14.680 --> 01:58:18.279 find out that I'd been in the military, and then 1854 01:58:18.279 --> 01:58:21.520 they'd say, wow, you're just You're not what I expect. 1855 01:58:21.640 --> 01:58:24.159 I'm just surprised that you were in the military because 1856 01:58:25.039 --> 01:58:27.000 your leadership style is so different. 1857 01:58:27.640 --> 01:58:30.840 They probably see full metal jacket and think every day 1858 01:58:30.920 --> 01:58:33.479 is basically like boot camp or whatever. 1859 01:58:33.600 --> 01:58:36.159 Yeah, but but are there But would. 1860 01:58:36.000 --> 01:58:38.159 You say that there are things that the military does 1861 01:58:38.239 --> 01:58:43.439 well that civilians, you know, like a civilian organization when 1862 01:58:43.479 --> 01:58:47.239 it comes to like leadership and team building just often does. 1863 01:58:47.479 --> 01:58:52.800 Don't get that, like you're applying very simple principles. Principles 1864 01:58:52.800 --> 01:58:57.520 are very simple to you, that seemed magical to them. 1865 01:58:57.840 --> 01:59:04.239 Yeah, I think in the military we understand about teams 1866 01:59:04.560 --> 01:59:08.720 and teamwork and working together, particularly as you move you know, 1867 01:59:08.760 --> 01:59:12.840 towards special ops, but not just special ops, in other 1868 01:59:12.880 --> 01:59:16.960 parts of the military too, But understanding we function as 1869 01:59:16.960 --> 01:59:23.399 a team, and we can do things quickly. Just think 1870 01:59:23.439 --> 01:59:27.680 about you know, we in the army, we can pick 1871 01:59:27.800 --> 01:59:31.960 up a brigade sized unit, take them to the other 1872 01:59:32.039 --> 01:59:36.600 side of the world and have them operating, you know, 1873 01:59:37.039 --> 01:59:41.279 within a few days. I mean, it's unbelievable the size 1874 01:59:41.399 --> 01:59:44.199 unit we can move in such a short period of 1875 01:59:44.239 --> 01:59:48.039 time and they hit the ground running, and you talk 1876 01:59:48.159 --> 01:59:54.399 to to a corporate group about moving that much stuff. 1877 01:59:54.840 --> 01:59:57.399 I mean, it's just beyond their comprehension. 1878 01:59:58.600 --> 02:00:02.119 We know how the organized, we know how to plan, 1879 02:00:02.600 --> 02:00:06.079 we know how to you know, actually carry things out 1880 02:00:06.239 --> 02:00:10.720 and make them happen. And you know, to be honest, 1881 02:00:10.800 --> 02:00:13.720 one of the things when I'm talking to vets on 1882 02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:19.359 counseling and they say, you know, I know how to 1883 02:00:19.399 --> 02:00:24.239 do army stuff, I said, that's right. And what you 1884 02:00:24.279 --> 02:00:30.119 don't realize is you have this tremendous skill set that 1885 02:00:30.159 --> 02:00:32.119 can happen. Well, I know they don't want me to 1886 02:00:32.159 --> 02:00:35.159 go shooting, but I'm not talking about shooting, right. You 1887 02:00:35.199 --> 02:00:37.520 know how to plan, you know how to organize, you 1888 02:00:37.560 --> 02:00:40.920 know how to execute, you know how to lead, you know. 1889 02:00:40.840 --> 02:00:42.039 How to take care of people. 1890 02:00:43.279 --> 02:00:47.199 All of those things are extremely valuable out in the 1891 02:00:47.239 --> 02:00:48.119 civilian world. 1892 02:00:49.039 --> 02:00:50.079 And you have all of that. 1893 02:00:51.119 --> 02:00:54.560 You just have to take off the od uniform and 1894 02:00:55.199 --> 02:00:58.479 and you know, put on your civilian clothes and go 1895 02:00:58.600 --> 02:01:03.399 do that. It works, and that's that skills that you have, 1896 02:01:03.600 --> 02:01:05.840 and you can go out and get a job and 1897 02:01:05.880 --> 02:01:11.479 you you might have to rephrase you know what the 1898 02:01:11.560 --> 02:01:16.600 skill is that you have, so you know, civilians understand 1899 02:01:16.640 --> 02:01:20.520 what you're talking about. But you know, you didn't waste 1900 02:01:20.560 --> 02:01:23.479 all that time in the military. You learned even from 1901 02:01:23.479 --> 02:01:26.640 the things that were stressful to you. You learned how 1902 02:01:26.640 --> 02:01:30.720 to operate under stress, and you also learn things not 1903 02:01:30.760 --> 02:01:33.800 to do. You learned that you know, if you put 1904 02:01:33.840 --> 02:01:36.239 your hand on a hot stove and it burns, you 1905 02:01:36.279 --> 02:01:38.239 don't have to put your hand back on that stove, 1906 02:01:38.319 --> 02:01:41.079 begin to know that it's going to burn. You know, 1907 02:01:41.319 --> 02:01:45.359 you learn fast from things like that, and that's needed 1908 02:01:45.399 --> 02:01:49.399 out in the in the civilian world, particularly now, because 1909 02:01:49.760 --> 02:01:51.079 most people don't want to work. 1910 02:01:51.359 --> 02:01:52.840 They don't even want to go into work. 1911 02:01:53.279 --> 02:01:54.840 They want you to pay them, but they don't want 1912 02:01:54.880 --> 02:01:57.199 to have to go to the office or wherever it 1913 02:01:57.279 --> 02:02:01.359 is that they're supposed to work. That's a real issue, 1914 02:02:01.720 --> 02:02:03.880 particularly for the younger ones. 1915 02:02:05.199 --> 02:02:07.680 Uh, did you say we have some questions? We do? 1916 02:02:13.760 --> 02:02:15.000 Maybe one moment. 1917 02:02:19.560 --> 02:02:23.600 From Matt Gevin. Thanks for sharing your experiences tonight, sir. 1918 02:02:23.840 --> 02:02:27.159 What was the most selfless heroic act you saw. 1919 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:29.760 During your time in the army? Thanks, gentlemen, always a 1920 02:02:29.800 --> 02:02:30.199 good time. 1921 02:02:33.319 --> 02:02:41.119 Yeah, the most selfless act? Well, I think I think 1922 02:02:41.119 --> 02:02:46.840 there were things, particularly in combat. You see it all 1923 02:02:46.880 --> 02:02:54.159 the time. I mean, you know with the assistant team leader. 1924 02:02:54.199 --> 02:02:58.439 I had Bargewell that I mentioned earlier. What I didn't 1925 02:02:58.479 --> 02:03:04.000 mention at the time was Bargewell was respect for when 1926 02:03:04.159 --> 02:03:07.880 he was started working for me. He retired as a 1927 02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:13.640 two star general. He commanded you know, Delta, every special 1928 02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:17.119 ops thing out there. He commanded before he got out. 1929 02:03:17.399 --> 02:03:20.720 And in just the last interview we did with Dave Grange, 1930 02:03:20.840 --> 02:03:25.199 he talked about Bargewell being a squadron commander in Desert Storm, right. 1931 02:03:25.520 --> 02:03:30.239 I mean, he was awesome, but he was fearless and 1932 02:03:30.800 --> 02:03:36.479 smart and everything, but he was selfle I mean, he 1933 02:03:36.640 --> 02:03:42.199 got a Distinguished Service Cross because he didn't like being 1934 02:03:42.239 --> 02:03:46.560 shot at either. And when a group of NVA fired 1935 02:03:46.600 --> 02:03:49.680 a B forty rocket right into the middle of the 1936 02:03:49.760 --> 02:03:54.239 team after I had left, wounded everybody, big piece of 1937 02:03:54.279 --> 02:03:57.960 shrapman went through the cheek on this side, lodged behind 1938 02:03:57.960 --> 02:04:01.239 his eye, on the other side, an artery inside of 1939 02:04:01.239 --> 02:04:05.000 his nose, and then they assaulted. He stood up with 1940 02:04:05.079 --> 02:04:09.039 an RPD machine gun and took out twenty zero and 1941 02:04:09.239 --> 02:04:11.760 just stood there and just hosed them down as they 1942 02:04:11.800 --> 02:04:14.880 tried to assault and then they tried it again, and 1943 02:04:14.920 --> 02:04:19.600 he took out just about that many again to protect 1944 02:04:19.600 --> 02:04:24.359 his team and got the team out. I mean, that's 1945 02:04:24.399 --> 02:04:27.199 the way he was. If you're my team, I'm not 1946 02:04:27.319 --> 02:04:30.279 leaving you behind. I'm going to take care of you. 1947 02:04:32.000 --> 02:04:34.359 And I mean I could go on and on just 1948 02:04:34.399 --> 02:04:36.920 talking about him and things that he did like that, but. 1949 02:04:37.840 --> 02:04:43.520 Just seeing other people. You know, I had people who. 1950 02:04:47.159 --> 02:04:52.399 Violated an order to come in and try to save 1951 02:04:52.479 --> 02:04:55.159 my team. I mean they were told, don't dare go 1952 02:04:55.239 --> 02:04:57.960 over there, there's too many of them, and they came 1953 02:04:58.000 --> 02:05:01.800 in anyway, got shot down, and two of them. 1954 02:05:01.800 --> 02:05:02.840 Still missing in action. 1955 02:05:04.079 --> 02:05:07.399 I mean, just but there were things like that going 1956 02:05:07.439 --> 02:05:11.039 on all over Vietnam every day where people were just 1957 02:05:12.279 --> 02:05:14.920 you know, putting their life out there on the line 1958 02:05:15.000 --> 02:05:20.600 to say people take care of them. So just amazing 1959 02:05:21.720 --> 02:05:24.119 what people do. 1960 02:05:24.119 --> 02:05:27.960 See anything else, We have a few more from Rick Redo. 1961 02:05:28.760 --> 02:05:30.560 It sounds like Dick was there around the time. My 1962 02:05:30.640 --> 02:05:33.640 father was also in McVie sag. Would you happen to 1963 02:05:33.680 --> 02:05:36.640 remember a tall mustache man named Tyra Dou might have 1964 02:05:36.680 --> 02:05:38.159 gone by Tolby at the time. 1965 02:05:41.000 --> 02:05:45.439 I almost remembered the name, but I'm not sure. One 1966 02:05:45.439 --> 02:05:50.199 of the things that happened in SOG is even if 1967 02:05:50.199 --> 02:05:52.479 you were at the same camp like you were at 1968 02:05:52.520 --> 02:05:56.720 the NAG at CCN, the teams were coming and going 1969 02:05:56.800 --> 02:06:02.399 so much, and there's a lot of compartmentalization going on. 1970 02:06:02.800 --> 02:06:04.680 I don't want to know what your team is doing. 1971 02:06:05.159 --> 02:06:07.079 I don't want you to know mine, because if one 1972 02:06:07.079 --> 02:06:09.920 of us gets captured, we don't want to be able 1973 02:06:09.920 --> 02:06:18.760 to compromise the other team. So there there's thirty thirty 1974 02:06:18.760 --> 02:06:25.319 four people who were killed that were I considered friends 1975 02:06:25.399 --> 02:06:30.680 or teammates that I knew during that twelve months, but 1976 02:06:31.880 --> 02:06:35.399 there were seventy something people actually killed. I just didn't 1977 02:06:35.439 --> 02:06:39.279 know the other I just didn't get a chance to 1978 02:06:41.520 --> 02:06:43.760 see him or be around him much. I might have 1979 02:06:45.000 --> 02:06:49.880 seen him in passing, but I'm sorry, I don't remember 1980 02:06:50.039 --> 02:06:51.199 that particular person. 1981 02:06:51.760 --> 02:06:56.840 But if he was at SOD, my feeling is he's 1982 02:06:56.840 --> 02:06:57.720 an American hero. 1983 02:06:59.039 --> 02:07:00.159 Yeah, and just a bit more. 1984 02:07:00.159 --> 02:07:03.399 He added, he was taken from us last last April, 1985 02:07:04.039 --> 02:07:06.079 and he was a wonderful father and man. 1986 02:07:06.239 --> 02:07:07.039 So thanks Rick. 1987 02:07:09.960 --> 02:07:10.600 A couple more. 1988 02:07:12.159 --> 02:07:14.840 Uh, was there any thought at the time that mac 1989 02:07:14.920 --> 02:07:17.960 VISAG would become something bigger or a unit unto itself 1990 02:07:18.039 --> 02:07:21.720 after the war, Any discussions about that. Obviously, no one 1991 02:07:22.079 --> 02:07:25.199 could have foreseen it was a forerunner to Delta and Jaysack, 1992 02:07:25.279 --> 02:07:30.079 et cetera. Just curious if anyone was talking about mac 1993 02:07:30.159 --> 02:07:33.880 visag serving in the theaters besides Vietnam and becoming an 1994 02:07:34.000 --> 02:07:38.359 MS in the army. And that's from Bill Gage. 1995 02:07:39.680 --> 02:07:43.680 They didn't discuss it with me, but I was I 1996 02:07:43.720 --> 02:07:45.680 was a little too low in a total bowl. But 1997 02:07:47.399 --> 02:07:52.560 I wouldn't be surprised if that was discussed. But I 1998 02:07:52.600 --> 02:07:57.439 didn't hear it, and my my focus was just mission, 1999 02:07:58.079 --> 02:08:01.079 go out, do the mission, make sure he came back. 2000 02:08:02.640 --> 02:08:07.560 And but that wouldn't surprise me if at some point 2001 02:08:07.600 --> 02:08:11.119 they were they were talking that way, because you're right they. 2002 02:08:11.760 --> 02:08:16.359 They did did put together, you know, Delta Force. 2003 02:08:16.399 --> 02:08:20.000 When I was at Brag as I mentioned before, when 2004 02:08:20.000 --> 02:08:25.079 I was up there, uh, I had a chance. Dick 2005 02:08:25.199 --> 02:08:29.359 Meadows came he had been my boss and a good friend, 2006 02:08:30.600 --> 02:08:35.119 and he came to me when they wanted me to 2007 02:08:35.399 --> 02:08:39.560 be part of Delta Force. H helped with the selection 2008 02:08:39.760 --> 02:08:43.600 process and be part of the part of Delta. So 2009 02:08:43.680 --> 02:08:46.600 I had an opportunity there. But a lot of the 2010 02:08:46.680 --> 02:08:50.159 you know sad guys ended up over there, and he 2011 02:08:50.399 --> 02:08:51.960 was one of them. 2012 02:08:52.479 --> 02:08:53.159 Uh. 2013 02:08:53.359 --> 02:08:58.319 He also uh contacted me right after I got to 2014 02:08:59.439 --> 02:09:03.000 the lot of the Ranger Department. I told me I 2015 02:09:03.039 --> 02:09:05.319 was getting orders the next day and I'd be gone 2016 02:09:05.399 --> 02:09:11.079 for a while. The orders were canceled because of some 2017 02:09:11.319 --> 02:09:16.119 things that were happening at Fort Benning. And but that 2018 02:09:16.319 --> 02:09:21.760 was I had been chosen to be on the SANTE 2019 02:09:22.159 --> 02:09:26.920 team that didn't get to go because of some flap 2020 02:09:27.000 --> 02:09:30.359 that happened down at Benning, not about me, just because 2021 02:09:30.399 --> 02:09:33.279 there were several of us all of a sudden being 2022 02:09:33.680 --> 02:09:41.880 jerked out with no notice, no reason for why we 2023 02:09:41.880 --> 02:09:43.560 were being pulled out or what we were going to 2024 02:09:43.560 --> 02:09:43.960 go to do. 2025 02:09:44.119 --> 02:09:49.680 So all right, one last one from Corbin. 2026 02:09:49.880 --> 02:09:53.319 Was there any kind of tactical fingerprinting attributed to l 2027 02:09:53.399 --> 02:09:54.399 Z ambushes? 2028 02:10:03.399 --> 02:10:06.199 You could, you could see the change. 2029 02:10:07.359 --> 02:10:11.000 Across time in the knowledge of the NBA. 2030 02:10:12.079 --> 02:10:12.319 Uh. 2031 02:10:13.159 --> 02:10:18.880 They became smart enough fairly soon to recognize that if 2032 02:10:18.880 --> 02:10:23.520 a if a helicopter came out of nowhere and landed 2033 02:10:24.159 --> 02:10:28.399 in a clearing out in Laos or Cambodia or North 2034 02:10:28.479 --> 02:10:32.239 Vietnam and then took off, they probably put a SOG 2035 02:10:32.319 --> 02:10:36.960 team out there. And then they eventually started putting towers 2036 02:10:37.880 --> 02:10:41.279 on mountaintops where they could see a valley and see 2037 02:10:41.319 --> 02:10:45.079 where if a helicopter came and landed, see where it was. 2038 02:10:45.479 --> 02:10:50.520 They started putting people would call trail watchers out in 2039 02:10:50.640 --> 02:10:54.840 different places where they expected that somebody might come in 2040 02:10:56.119 --> 02:11:02.119 to watch. They started doing a lot more efficient work 2041 02:11:03.239 --> 02:11:09.920 with triangulation radio signals to locate where you were to 2042 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:13.680 be able to come. They started doing a lot better 2043 02:11:13.800 --> 02:11:17.960 job of having spies in the camps and getting that 2044 02:11:18.079 --> 02:11:22.760 kind of information sent out to the field. So they 2045 02:11:22.800 --> 02:11:26.279 became more and more sophisticated, and we were trying to 2046 02:11:26.359 --> 02:11:30.840 become more sophisticated. So we might have three LZ's picked, 2047 02:11:32.479 --> 02:11:35.920 and we would go to the first one and set down, 2048 02:11:36.199 --> 02:11:39.359 and we might or might not get off the helicopter 2049 02:11:39.520 --> 02:11:41.880 that one, and we'd go to the other two, but 2050 02:11:41.960 --> 02:11:44.640 one of those three we'd get off. On things like that, 2051 02:11:45.239 --> 02:11:47.079 just to try to confuse them. 2052 02:11:48.079 --> 02:11:49.800 One of the things you mentioned in your book, and 2053 02:11:50.359 --> 02:11:55.039 you know, like so the Americans were totally in the 2054 02:11:55.159 --> 02:11:58.720 dark about MacFee. But you mentioned like when Matt doc 2055 02:11:58.760 --> 02:12:02.000 Schreiber got killed, that there was an announcement in North 2056 02:12:02.079 --> 02:12:04.399 Vietnam that he had been killed, and it was like 2057 02:12:04.560 --> 02:12:08.920 a celebration, Like, how did it you know, he's he's 2058 02:12:08.960 --> 02:12:12.039 somebody who nobody in America knew who he was obviously, 2059 02:12:12.960 --> 02:12:15.279 you know, how did it feel for you guys to 2060 02:12:15.359 --> 02:12:20.279 know that? Like, they knew who he was and you 2061 02:12:20.319 --> 02:12:23.640 know it was public knowledge. 2062 02:12:23.520 --> 02:12:29.479 Yeah, they they knew who most of the one zeros 2063 02:12:29.560 --> 02:12:34.239 the team leaders were, and most of them had most 2064 02:12:34.279 --> 02:12:38.560 of us had a dossier, so they had a lot 2065 02:12:38.600 --> 02:12:42.319 of information. When you get into the book two, I 2066 02:12:42.359 --> 02:12:45.760 don't want to give it away, but there's a place 2067 02:12:45.840 --> 02:12:50.039 in book two that that will give you chills when 2068 02:12:50.039 --> 02:12:53.640 you read it because of what they. 2069 02:12:53.600 --> 02:12:54.359 Knew and. 2070 02:12:57.359 --> 02:13:01.039 Who talked to me, who all me on the radio 2071 02:13:01.159 --> 02:13:05.640 and talk to me? And what they said, Yeah. 2072 02:13:04.800 --> 02:13:07.840 That was that was you Like, I've read that story 2073 02:13:07.880 --> 02:13:12.239 in other books, didn't John tell John? I think John 2074 02:13:12.279 --> 02:13:13.840 Plaster wrote about it in his book. 2075 02:13:14.119 --> 02:13:17.680 John schucker Meyer also mentioned that they would call out 2076 02:13:17.720 --> 02:13:20.039 people's names on the radio at times. 2077 02:13:20.520 --> 02:13:25.359 You know, yeah, they read they read the whole list 2078 02:13:25.399 --> 02:13:29.680 of names. Oh man, Yeah, one name they they should 2079 02:13:29.720 --> 02:13:33.079 not have been able to know and and they knew it. 2080 02:13:33.399 --> 02:13:33.840 Yeah. 2081 02:13:34.760 --> 02:13:39.319 Yeah, Yeah, that's it's it's crazy. 2082 02:13:39.359 --> 02:13:40.520 It's crazy how. 2083 02:13:40.520 --> 02:13:49.720 Absolutely effective you guys were considering the the the intelligence 2084 02:13:49.880 --> 02:13:55.319 you know, the intelligence leak that they had headquarters. Yeah, 2085 02:13:55.640 --> 02:14:01.479 you know, the Partner Nation leak. But well, we'll probably 2086 02:14:01.520 --> 02:14:02.960 have to have you back for book two. 2087 02:14:04.279 --> 02:14:08.039 Okay, yeah, book two. Book two is loaded. 2088 02:14:08.760 --> 02:14:11.640 I got some really powerful stuff, but you need book 2089 02:14:11.680 --> 02:14:16.880 one to set the stage and understand everything so you 2090 02:14:16.920 --> 02:14:22.680 can really see the changes in tactics and techniques and 2091 02:14:22.760 --> 02:14:29.000 things like that. Yeah, a lot more than your own stress. 2092 02:14:29.960 --> 02:14:33.640 And you know, I had started out in chemistry, but 2093 02:14:35.039 --> 02:14:40.680 shortly into SOG I started changing the psychology, trying to 2094 02:14:40.840 --> 02:14:50.279 understand how to lead mercenaries in combat, how to engage 2095 02:14:50.880 --> 02:14:54.119 the North Vietnamese, how do you engage people in general? 2096 02:14:54.880 --> 02:14:56.479 And there's a. 2097 02:14:56.119 --> 02:15:00.239 Section in book two where I talk about the the 2098 02:15:00.359 --> 02:15:04.600 human reaction to combat. They are things that humans do, 2099 02:15:05.800 --> 02:15:13.199 regardless of where you're from, and combat that give you away. 2100 02:15:14.399 --> 02:15:18.000 And once you start to learn what those are, it 2101 02:15:18.079 --> 02:15:20.880 gives you an advantage going against the force. 2102 02:15:21.439 --> 02:15:22.880 You know things they're going to do. 2103 02:15:23.000 --> 02:15:27.000 They it's just instinct and people do it unless you 2104 02:15:27.079 --> 02:15:29.239 spend a lot of time trying to train it out 2105 02:15:29.279 --> 02:15:29.479 of you. 2106 02:15:30.319 --> 02:15:33.840 So that stuff is in there pretty heavy in book too. 2107 02:15:36.000 --> 02:15:39.399 Is that it Ty Dick thank you so much. We 2108 02:15:39.479 --> 02:15:42.079 really appreciate it. Thank you. 2109 02:15:42.199 --> 02:15:48.000 I really appreciate the opportunity just to share some things 2110 02:15:48.079 --> 02:15:50.800 like this, to be able to talk to someone that understands, 2111 02:15:51.319 --> 02:15:55.840 you know, what I'm talking about, and being you know, 2112 02:15:55.880 --> 02:16:02.600 given a platform, people vets can be helped, they can 2113 02:16:02.640 --> 02:16:06.960 do a lot better. And some of the things that 2114 02:16:07.079 --> 02:16:10.680 help you get better or not complex. You just need 2115 02:16:10.720 --> 02:16:15.239 somebody to share it with you and try this. What's 2116 02:16:15.319 --> 02:16:20.439 the here's some things. Keep moving forward, don't stop. 2117 02:16:21.439 --> 02:16:24.880 Yeah, one foot in front of the other, right, that's. 2118 02:16:24.760 --> 02:16:28.560 Right, and keep going and practice. 2119 02:16:29.000 --> 02:16:31.520 You know, there's a whole set of principles in the book, 2120 02:16:32.600 --> 02:16:34.920 and one of them is keep moving forward. One of 2121 02:16:34.959 --> 02:16:38.840 them is practice, practice, practice, Because it didn't matter how 2122 02:16:38.920 --> 02:16:42.280 good your plan is, you're going to have to adapt. 2123 02:16:42.479 --> 02:16:45.840 So you have to adapt and adapt. I used to know. 2124 02:16:46.239 --> 02:16:47.959 I knew when I was standing on the skid of 2125 02:16:48.040 --> 02:16:52.680 the helicopter coming into that landing zone, whether it was 2126 02:16:52.719 --> 02:16:56.920 a hot insertion or not, I knew as soon as 2127 02:16:56.920 --> 02:16:59.639 I stepped off on the ground, the plan was going 2128 02:16:59.719 --> 02:17:01.600 to change, and I was going to have to start 2129 02:17:01.639 --> 02:17:04.600 adapting to where we were going, how we were going 2130 02:17:04.680 --> 02:17:06.120 to do it. Where I was going to put the 2131 02:17:06.159 --> 02:17:12.000 air strikes whatever. So that more you practice and the 2132 02:17:12.120 --> 02:17:16.760 practice adapting and doing it under stress, the easier it 2133 02:17:16.799 --> 02:17:18.680 is to do. When you know, when you get out 2134 02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:23.200 there and trying to get to the point where you 2135 02:17:23.399 --> 02:17:25.840 don't let the bullets become a distraction. 2136 02:17:27.520 --> 02:17:29.280 They're going to hit you. They're not going to hit you. 2137 02:17:29.280 --> 02:17:29.959 You know other thing. 2138 02:17:30.079 --> 02:17:33.040 If you're the leader, I mean you, you just have 2139 02:17:33.120 --> 02:17:35.600 to assume you're going to get hit. If you're doing 2140 02:17:35.639 --> 02:17:38.239 your job, you're going to be exposed and you're probably 2141 02:17:38.319 --> 02:17:41.559 going to get hit, but you got to do it. 2142 02:17:43.239 --> 02:17:47.479 Yeah. Well, thanks again, Thank you everybody. 2143 02:17:48.280 --> 02:17:51.639 For Patreon subscribers, we're going to do a quick uh 2144 02:17:51.799 --> 02:17:55.840 team house after dark after this, so if you're not 2145 02:17:55.920 --> 02:17:58.200 a subscriber on our patreon, you should be. 2146 02:17:58.879 --> 02:17:59.239 You get a. 2147 02:17:59.239 --> 02:18:02.520 Special bonus episodes and you know, some cool stuff. 2148 02:18:03.479 --> 02:18:04.600 Anyway, thank you everybody. 2149 02:18:05.440 --> 02:18:06.479 Hey guys, it's Jack. 2150 02:18:06.559 --> 02:18:07.920 I just want to talk to you for a moment 2151 02:18:07.959 --> 02:18:10.120 about how you can support the show. If you've been 2152 02:18:10.159 --> 02:18:12.639 watching it enjoying it, but you'd like to get a 2153 02:18:12.680 --> 02:18:15.040 little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, 2154 02:18:15.600 --> 02:18:19.120 you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon dot com. 2155 02:18:19.159 --> 02:18:23.000 Slash the Teamhouse, and for five dollars a month you 2156 02:18:23.040 --> 02:18:25.639 can get access to all of these episodes of The 2157 02:18:25.639 --> 02:18:30.239 Teamhouse ad free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast 2158 02:18:30.360 --> 02:18:34.559 Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy that one 2159 02:18:34.639 --> 02:18:37.159 you will also get all of those episodes ad free, 2160 02:18:37.799 --> 02:18:40.959 and you support the channel and the show, and we 2161 02:18:41.079 --> 02:18:45.040 really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has 2162 02:18:45.079 --> 02:18:49.639 helped this company and this small business survive, especially during 2163 02:18:49.680 --> 02:18:52.920 our early years, and you are what continues to help 2164 02:18:52.920 --> 02:18:57.040 this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world 2165 02:18:57.120 --> 02:18:58.360 of YouTube advertising. 2166 02:18:58.639 --> 02:19:00.440 So we really appreciate all of you guys. 2167 02:19:01.319 --> 02:19:02.959 There's going to be a link down in the description 2168 02:19:03.079 --> 02:19:06.559 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 2169 02:19:06.559 --> 02:19:09.399 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 2170 02:19:09.399 --> 02:19:11.760 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise, 2171 02:19:11.840 --> 02:19:15.399 we got stickers and we also have patches, and I 2172 02:19:15.399 --> 02:19:18.360 should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten 2173 02:19:18.399 --> 02:19:19.959 dollars a month, we will mail you this. 2174 02:19:19.959 --> 02:19:23.879 Patch as well, so we really appreciate that. 2175 02:19:24.520 --> 02:19:27.680 But they're also for sale on the merch shop and additionally, 2176 02:19:28.040 --> 02:19:32.159 they got t shirts up there, water bottles, a tote, bag, 2177 02:19:32.520 --> 02:19:36.159 coffee mugs, all that good stuff, so please go and 2178 02:19:36.239 --> 02:19:37.719 check them out and support the show. 2179 02:19:38.280 --> 02:19:40.600 We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you,