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Every 51 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:29.599 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 52 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 53 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:49.840 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening presenting the 54 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:56.000 most notorious unsolved crimes in Northeast Ohio. Investigative reporter James 55 00:02:56.039 --> 00:03:00.240 Renner reopens cold cases and delves into dark secrets that 56 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:06.800 have baffled Clevelanders for years, including murder. Beverly Jerros, just 57 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.719 sixteen years old, felt a dark foreboding in the months 58 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:13.719 before she was stabbed to death in her quiet Garfield 59 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:18.319 Heights home. It all started with an anonymous gift stole 60 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:22.039 an identity. Joseph Newton Chandler of East Lake was not 61 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.360 who he claimed to be. Some think he was a 62 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:27.719 Zodiac killer. Others say he was d B. Cooper or 63 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:33.479 even Jim Morrison. Suicide or murder. Joseph Kopcik had gambling 64 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.599 problems from friends and family until he was found at 65 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.360 the bottom of a nine story parking deck in downtown 66 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:44.759 Cleveland with multiple stab wounds heist. In nineteen sixty nine, 67 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.479 Lakewood Bank employee Ted Conrad nabbed two hundred and fifty 68 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.319 thousand from the vault one day after his twentieth birthday. 69 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:56.680 The FBI still shows up at his high school reunions controversy. 70 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:01.080 Jeffrey Crotein was thrice tried for the grizzly two thousand 71 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.719 murder of his wife and ultimately acquitted, to the frustration 72 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:10.639 of Cuyahoga County prosecutors, detectives, and even jurors. These stories 73 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.479 venture into dark alleys and seedy strip clubs, as well 74 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:18.279 as comfortable suburbs and cozy small towns where some of 75 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:22.240 the region's most horrendous crimes have occurred. The book that 76 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:25.959 we're featuring this evening is The Serial Killers Apprentice and 77 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.439 Other true Stories of Cleveland's most intriguing unsolved Crimes, with 78 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.480 my special guest, journalist and author James Renner. Welcome back 79 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:36.399 to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing 80 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:37.079 to this interview. 81 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.360 James Renner, clar. 82 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:43.399 There, thanks for having me on. This is good, this 83 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:43.839 is fun. 84 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:48.240 Thank you very much. Always a pleasure to speak to you. 85 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:55.800 Let's talk right away with why this book about Cleveland. 86 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.560 Tell us your connection to all things in Cleveland and 87 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:03.399 with east to Ohio. Just tell us briefly how you 88 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.160 came to want to write this book or how you 89 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:07.720 came in a position to write this book. 90 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:13.759 Sure, yes, Well, the short story is this book, The 91 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.199 Serial Killers Apprentice is a collection of a dozen of 92 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.240 the true crime stories I wrote as a reporter for 93 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:26.279 the Cleveland Scene and the Free Times magazines and in 94 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:29.120 Cleveland Scene and Free Times, those are kind of like 95 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.839 the village voice newspapers of Cleveland, and up until about 96 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.040 two thousand and eight, there were two of them, and 97 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:38.160 they were going head to head for like twenty years, 98 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:41.959 and Free Times was kind of the scrappy underdog during 99 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.759 my time there, kind of rose rose up, and eventually 100 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.959 the group behind Free Times merged with Scene, and a 101 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.000 lot of Free Times folks stayed on. So now there's 102 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.399 one paper lefted Scene and they kind of rolled the 103 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.399 roost there and they're doing great journalism again. So it 104 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.560 was the the most fun I've ever had, the best 105 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.480 job I've ever had, But it was at a time 106 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:09.240 where when I was working there, it was the decline 107 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.279 of the newspapers. I started in two thousand and three, 108 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.279 and at the time a cover story like one of 109 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:20.160 these stories in the book, a feature story would pay 110 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:24.759 twenty five hundred dollars. By the time I left, seven 111 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:28.800 years later, that same story paid about two hundred and 112 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.319 fifty dollars, and we had gone from a staff of 113 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:36.560 fifteen to three. But it was while it lasted. It 114 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.920 was a fun ride, and I became known as the 115 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:41.680 true crime guy because I'd write at a lot of 116 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.120 these crime stories and they build up. And these are 117 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.600 the twelve best that I've written, and a couple of 118 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:52.160 them have been featured in Best American Crime Reporting and 119 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:55.959 Best American Nonfiction, you know collections. 120 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.639 Certainly, let's start with Joseph Kupchik and you call it 121 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.040 again with suicide with a question mark. 122 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:08.439 Yeah, but if you. 123 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:11.079 Said it was suicide, it would be a very unusual 124 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.959 way to do it. And his family and friends think 125 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.639 it was murder. And he has a twin brother named John. 126 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.879 Tell us a little bit about Joe Cupchick and his 127 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:27.000 brother and his gambling hobby. We'll say, sure. 128 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.079 You know, I'm really glad we're doing this story because 129 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.360 it's not as well known as I think it should be. 130 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.600 And I got to know the family quite well when 131 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:39.000 I was reporting on it, and you know, so the 132 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.720 background of the story is Joe Cupchick was you know this, 133 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.800 you know, a run of the mill young man living 134 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:52.360 in northeast Ohio. And he had graduated and was attending college. 135 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.560 And he had this twin brother, John, So it was 136 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:01.120 Joe and John Cupchick, and they're identical, an identical twin. 137 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:06.439 So he was living on you know, kind of the 138 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.319 west side of Cleveland, and he had a couple of jobs. 139 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.040 He was working at Wendy's and you know, with this 140 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:17.279 group and and it also started working at Steak and Shake, 141 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:20.399 which I don't know if that's kind of like a 142 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.160 national chain, but it's you know, it's it's good. It's 143 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.120 it's like a chain diner, you know, where you can 144 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.439 get cheap hot dogs and hamburgers and French fries and 145 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:32.320 spaghetti and uh, you know, he was doing that to 146 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.639 make ends meet. Now, unknown to a lot of his 147 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:40.480 friends and family, he was also very involved in online 148 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:45.919 gambling and he had uh, you know, sometimes he was up, 149 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.080 uh and sometimes he was down. And it looked like 150 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:55.039 he was at the time that he died. Uh, he 151 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:59.879 had lost just lost for his age, a decent sum 152 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:06.879 of money. So the particulars of his death. He was 153 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:10.840 supposed to work at Stake and Shake that day, and 154 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:16.200 this is two thousand and six, and the story goes, 155 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.480 he showed up for work and they didn't really need him, 156 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:22.679 so they sent him home, and instead of going home, 157 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.679 he drove into downtown Cleveland, about a twenty minute drive, 158 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:32.519 and his car ends up in a parking deck that's 159 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:37.879 owned by a bank downtown and it's several stories tall, 160 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.440 and he drives up all the way to the top, 161 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.960 you know where it's just open to the elements up top, 162 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:51.799 and he parks the car flashed forward to the next night, 163 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:57.080 you know that. Later that night, his body is found 164 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:02.080 on the sidewalk low the parking deck, as if he 165 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:07.360 had fallen that entire length, you know that that drop, 166 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:12.559 and he's nearly dead when he's found. A guy that 167 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.679 had come out of a bar comes across. His body. 168 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.279 Didn't look like it had been there. Long calls ninety 169 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:20.399 one to one. He's rushed to the hospital. He's still 170 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:25.480 barely hanging on. He can't really talk at the hospital. 171 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:31.399 He dies. And when I saw this case, I remember 172 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.000 reading about it in the in the playing dealer, and 173 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:38.840 the coroner had essentially written it off as a suicide, 174 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:44.440 that he was despondent over these gambling losses and he 175 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.159 jumped off the top of the parking garage and killed himself. 176 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:55.679 But it just didn't sit right with me still. You know, 177 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.799 I waited several months before I dove into it, and 178 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:02.440 when I did, you know, it just had this feeling 179 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.039 that this was going to be one of those pieses 180 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.360 that was there's a little bit more under the surface 181 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.559 than you expect. And sure enough. I mean, the first 182 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.360 thing with this case is Joe has this identical twin 183 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:16.440 which you know, picture this, you know, you know what 184 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.120 the victim looks like, and he's he's six feet under, 185 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:25.000 he's dead. But you have to interview this man who 186 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:30.879 looks and talks exactly like exactly like it, you know, 187 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.480 and knows him better than anybody else. So it was 188 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.240 a very surreal experience for me to sit down with 189 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:40.399 this guy that is essentially a you know, a double 190 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.639 of of this this this young man he died. And 191 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.639 so the article actually opens up with the dream sequence, 192 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:53.559 and it through the mind of John, who to me 193 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.879 described these nightmares that he was having where Joe was 194 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.360 still alive and they were playing basketball. I thought that 195 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.320 was very interesting, you know that there was still a 196 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:06.000 part of Joe that that was alive inside his head. 197 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.679 So you know that you've got that weirdness. And then 198 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:14.639 you look at the particulars of you know, the death, 199 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:18.000 and there's some weird things. You know, there are these 200 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.039 like when they went into the car that Joe had 201 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:27.039 left behind, you know, things were kind of out of place, 202 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:29.720 and they looked at his body and they were like 203 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.399 what the corner calls tick marks along his like abdomen 204 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:40.720 and chest, and you know, the coroner suggested that these 205 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.879 tick marks were used by a knife and it was 206 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:48.399 Joe considering whether or not to stab himself before he 207 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:52.519 leapt to his death, which is just it. You know, 208 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.000 that one of the weirdest explanations I've ever heard, and 209 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:59.159 that doesn't sit right with me either. So I went 210 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:04.600 and tracked down his coworkers and that's when I discovered 211 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.759 that when Joe left Stake and Shake that day, he 212 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.399 didn't leave alone. He gave a ride. The reason he 213 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.159 went downtown is he was asked to give a ride 214 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:19.360 for this coworker named Brian, and Brian asked him to 215 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:22.080 take him downtown Cleveland. So Joe was this, you know, 216 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.799 he was he was kind of callable and extra nice, 217 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:30.120 and so he left with this kid, Brian, and uh yeah, 218 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.320 and then you find out that things are missing from 219 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:38.279 from Joe, possibly a bit of money, and also his 220 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:41.279 cell phone. His cell phone was never found, like if 221 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.840 it was a suicide, where's that cell phone, you know? 222 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:50.960 And why is it gone? So I'm like, well, I 223 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.399 got to talk to this Brian kid, because he would 224 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.720 have been at the very least, he would have been 225 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.639 the last person to be with and see Joe. And 226 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.759 then I find out that he's left the state, so 227 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.600 you know, red flags start going up, and I find 228 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.919 out that he is also in trouble with the law, 229 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:13.240 and he has a warrant for his arrest and all these, 230 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.159 you know, and it starts adding up. So I eventually 231 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:19.720 tracked down Brian out of state and leave a message 232 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:24.799 for him, and he's not calling me back. And about 233 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.440 two o'clock in the morning, I'm sleeping, I'm in bed, 234 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.279 and I get a call and it's Brian, and I 235 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:35.000 answer it and we talked for a little bit and 236 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.159 I've been reporting long enough where I think I've got 237 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:44.480 a pretty good read on people and sense when they're 238 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.759 conflicted about something, regardless of the fact of that they're 239 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:51.039 calling me at two o'clock in the morning. But I 240 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.360 could tell he had been drinking a little bit and 241 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.480 there was something weighing on him, and he I think 242 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:01.039 he got really close to telling me something very important 243 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.519 that night, but he couldn't quite get there. And I 244 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.240 told him, I said, I can hear it in your voice. 245 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:10.519 You feel terrible, you know, why don't you just tell 246 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:15.519 me what happened? And and he almost did. You know, He's, well, 247 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:20.279 you know, I can't get there. I'm not there, So 248 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.759 you know, it was a weird conversation and it left 249 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:26.360 me feeling that at the very least, Brian knows more 250 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.399 about what happened to Joe that night, and the corner 251 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.000 had initially ruled it suicide, but because of these questions, 252 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.799 the corner had to go and re assess the situation, 253 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:43.240 and now Joe is technically lifted, as I believe, unknown 254 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.240 like they don't. They're not saying it's suicide, they're not 255 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.240 saying it's murder. They just are, you know, And he 256 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.320 asked the corner, and he's like, well, for the family's sake, 257 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.960 we're just saying it's not suicide. But there's so many 258 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.120 questions here. One other little piece of this when I 259 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.919 went to Stake and I found Joe's old manager and 260 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:05.759 she was on duty, and I said, hey, I'm doing 261 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.720 this story. Do you know anything and she her face 262 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.759 kind of went white, just like you know, you read 263 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:14.279 about it and it really does happen. And her eyes 264 00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.679 get wide and she says, yes, you know, there's something 265 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:19.679 that you should know that I've that I've wanted to say, 266 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.559 there's information that I have that that needs to be 267 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.600 out there. And I said, well, great, you know, please 268 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.519 share it with me and she said I can't. And 269 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.600 I said, well, so why why in the world can't 270 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:34.720 you share something about this, this this kid's death. And 271 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.759 she said, well, if I talk to you, I'm going 272 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.279 to lose my job. And you know, I look around 273 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.240 and I'm like, you're working at Stake and shake you know, 274 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.480 you're you're probably going to be able to get another 275 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.039 job managing a restaurant. But you know, it was a 276 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.320 flippant thing to say, but you know, at the time, 277 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.879 you know, we're talking like when I was writing about 278 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:00.879 it was like two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, 279 00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:06.519 and the economy was just just at the bottom, especially 280 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.559 in Cleveland, and everybody was fighting for jobs. So you know, 281 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.240 in a way, I can't blame her, but in another, 282 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.559 you know, in another sense, it's you're weighing this job 283 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.319 at stake and shake against possibly giving closure to some 284 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:24.279 kids murder. So it was very frustrating and the case 285 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:28.359 is still unsolved, and I do very much believe it's murder. 286 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:32.920 The family thought it was murder as well. And you 287 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.839 talk of the the effort, the incredible effort by the father, George, 288 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.319 to hire a private eye and to look into some 289 00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:44.400 of these things, and you do talk about that through 290 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:51.240 their private investigations they found some the icing material and 291 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.480 a container. Tell us a little bit about again that 292 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.279 very promising lead once somebody looked at you know, the 293 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:03.039 proximity of where he worked and also where this parking 294 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:03.680 garage was. 295 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:15.160 Yeah, they found a number of odd of odd items. 296 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:17.960 You know, I think the father at one time, you know, 297 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:23.920 he was very adamant about you know, pushing this this theory, 298 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:29.039 which I believe is true, that you know, that he 299 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.599 was murdered. You know he he at one time submitted 300 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.880 this list of questions and entitled Questions and Facts about 301 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.319 Joseph kupchik Uh and on there. You know, top is 302 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.759 is where is Joe's phone? Joe's cell phone? Why did 303 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:46.960 he not call off work if he didn't want to 304 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.799 arouse suspicion around his suicide? So you know, if he 305 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.960 committed suicide, you know why if that was his plan, 306 00:18:55.039 --> 00:19:00.720 why go into work at all? You know, with there's 307 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:05.200 some other other pieces here. If you know, Joe was 308 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.400 found covered in blood, his body was, but there's no 309 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.359 blood on the railing where he would have had to 310 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:15.160 boost himself up. He placed an online bat that night 311 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:18.720 four hundred and fifty dollars on Georgetown to win the 312 00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:24.880 NCAA tournament. And this knife that was found in the 313 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.880 car that that supposedly was making tick marks. You know, 314 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.480 where did that come from? Because it wasn't from It 315 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:34.400 didn't match any of the knives at Stake and Shake. 316 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:36.759 It wasn't his, you know, so the question is was 317 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.200 it Bryan's? Uh? I'm sorry, I got I got a 318 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:46.799 little off track, but you were asking about this de 319 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:54.599 icing material that uh, that has to do with this 320 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:01.400 idea that Joe's body might have been stored in age. 321 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.799 His body might have been stored in a big box. 322 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.319 So up in the parking deck you've got these giant 323 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:16.000 blue boxes of like salt, like essentially de icing material 324 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.119 that they would use in the winter to remove the 325 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:22.079 ice and snow from the parking deck. And on Joe's 326 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.359 close there was this compound that matched the de icing material. 327 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:31.799 So the theory that the father put forth was that 328 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:37.000 Joe was actually murdered when he drove up to Cleveland 329 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.759 with Brian early that day, and then his body was 330 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:46.599 stored in this box of the icing material until nighttime, 331 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.279 and then whoever killed him brought him out of the 332 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.400 box and tossed his body over the side to make 333 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:53.599 it look like a suicide. 334 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.240 With everything that you've looked at this, what is your 335 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.960 theory other than he was murdered? 336 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.440 You know? The all I can say is I think 337 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.880 that Brian and his coworkers know a little more about 338 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.759 what's going on, but they're you know, like a lot 339 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.240 of these cases, when you really start looking at there 340 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:25.680 a number of suspects that that you know, that had 341 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:31.480 motive to kill Joe, believe it or not that The 342 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:33.519 other thing we have gotten into is he had this 343 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:38.200 manager at State at Wendy's where he worked before Stake 344 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.640 and Shake, and this manager had gotten in trouble for 345 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.359 embezzling a lot of money at a prior job. And 346 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.440 it's possible that Joe had found out about this and 347 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.359 maybe was was going to alert other people at the restaurant, 348 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:04.200 and so, you know, this was he had some knowledge 349 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:08.720 of this guy's criminal behavior. And when I went to 350 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:13.519 question him, this guy's really squirrely and just an odd character, 351 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.720 and he had been known to talk to Joe outside 352 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:21.200 of work too. My hunch is that Joe met up 353 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:23.599 with the wrong person downtown Cleveland, either he gave a 354 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.279 ride to this person or met up with him there. 355 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.559 And yes, I believe kind of what the father believed 356 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.599 is that he was probably killed or you know, he 357 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.160 didn't die until the hospital later on, but he was 358 00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:43.759 probably beat up pretty bad and during the day and 359 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.359 either left in the car beside the car or left 360 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:50.359 in this box of the icing material. And then the 361 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.240 killer thought after he got home, he's like, well, you know, 362 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.240 how can I cover this up more? And it makes sense, 363 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.240 you know, let's toss his body over the side. So 364 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:02.720 they went back under the cover of night and and 365 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:05.720 tossed it over. And you would think, well, so let's 366 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:09.960 get the security footage right of this parking deck, and 367 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:12.200 the parking decks owned by. 368 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:14.079 A bank. 369 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:18.599 It's a big bank in Cleveland, and they end up 370 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:27.240 destroying the tape before anybody can really see it. Mm hmm. Yes, 371 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:31.000 So it's a it's a it's an unfortunate case. You know, 372 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:32.559 there are a number of ways that it could have 373 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.960 been solved. But since the corner ruled it suicide at first, 374 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:39.720 the cops weren't really interested in it at all, until 375 00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:42.599 you know, until after my article came out, until after 376 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:43.359 the family. 377 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:48.359 Pushed Yeah that you got to say that some you 378 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.200 can only conclude it was an incredible effort to have 379 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:54.559 justice done in here at all that did even was 380 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.119 an investigation of murder in this case. 381 00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:02.960 And when people hear about it, you know, sometimes their 382 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.359 wheels get turning, and you know, they jump to this 383 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:09.559 idea of maybe, well, it has to be a conspiracy, 384 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.319 right because the bank destroyed the tape in the corner 385 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.960 world at suicide when it's obviously a murder and all 386 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:17.920 these people are involved. But you know, I've come what 387 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.400 I've come to learn as a true crime reporter is that, 388 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.720 you know, don't ever ascribe to conspiracy. What can be 389 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:31.640 explained through laziness. And unfortunately, I think that's what happened 390 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.759 here is you know, the corner, the police, the bank, 391 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:40.319 everybody just wanted it to go away and didn't want 392 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.240 to work work and look into it. And you know 393 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:46.920 they were able to push it off their desk and 394 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:48.960 now they don't have that case to work on. 395 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:55.599 Yeah, let's talk about what you call time is death itself, 396 00:24:56.279 --> 00:25:00.920 the unsolved murder of Beverly jar Ros sixteen years old. 397 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.920 And you say that we didn't allude it into any introduction, 398 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:08.640 that she knew death wanted her and she did everything 399 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:12.160 to prepare for it. What do you mean by that? 400 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.599 You talk about poems and but let's take us back 401 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:20.279