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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening presenting the
Speaker 4: most notorious unsolved crimes in Northeast Ohio. Investigative reporter James
Speaker 4: Renner reopens cold cases and delves into dark secrets that
Speaker 4: have baffled Clevelanders for years, including murder. Beverly Jerros, just
Speaker 4: sixteen years old, felt a dark foreboding in the months
Speaker 4: before she was stabbed to death in her quiet Garfield
Speaker 4: Heights home. It all started with an anonymous gift stole
Speaker 4: an identity. Joseph Newton Chandler of East Lake was not
Speaker 4: who he claimed to be. Some think he was a
Speaker 4: Zodiac killer. Others say he was d B. Cooper or
Speaker 4: even Jim Morrison. Suicide or murder. Joseph Kopcik had gambling
Speaker 4: problems from friends and family until he was found at
Speaker 4: the bottom of a nine story parking deck in downtown
Speaker 4: Cleveland with multiple stab wounds heist. In nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 4: Lakewood Bank employee Ted Conrad nabbed two hundred and fifty
Speaker 4: thousand from the vault one day after his twentieth birthday.
Speaker 4: The FBI still shows up at his high school reunions controversy.
Speaker 4: Jeffrey Crotein was thrice tried for the grizzly two thousand
Speaker 4: murder of his wife and ultimately acquitted, to the frustration
Speaker 4: of Cuyahoga County prosecutors, detectives, and even jurors. These stories
Speaker 4: venture into dark alleys and seedy strip clubs, as well
Speaker 4: as comfortable suburbs and cozy small towns where some of
Speaker 4: the region's most horrendous crimes have occurred. The book that
Speaker 4: we're featuring this evening is The Serial Killers Apprentice and
Speaker 4: Other true Stories of Cleveland's most intriguing unsolved Crimes, with
Speaker 4: my special guest, journalist and author James Renner. Welcome back
Speaker 4: to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 4: to this interview.
Speaker 3: James Renner, clar.
Speaker 2: There, thanks for having me on. This is good, this
Speaker 2: is fun.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Always a pleasure to speak to you.
Speaker 3: Let's talk right away with why this book about Cleveland.
Speaker 3: Tell us your connection to all things in Cleveland and
Speaker 3: with east to Ohio. Just tell us briefly how you
Speaker 3: came to want to write this book or how you
Speaker 3: came in a position to write this book.
Speaker 2: Sure, yes, Well, the short story is this book, The
Speaker 2: Serial Killers Apprentice is a collection of a dozen of
Speaker 2: the true crime stories I wrote as a reporter for
Speaker 2: the Cleveland Scene and the Free Times magazines and in
Speaker 2: Cleveland Scene and Free Times, those are kind of like
Speaker 2: the village voice newspapers of Cleveland, and up until about
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, there were two of them, and
Speaker 2: they were going head to head for like twenty years,
Speaker 2: and Free Times was kind of the scrappy underdog during
Speaker 2: my time there, kind of rose rose up, and eventually
Speaker 2: the group behind Free Times merged with Scene, and a
Speaker 2: lot of Free Times folks stayed on. So now there's
Speaker 2: one paper lefted Scene and they kind of rolled the
Speaker 2: roost there and they're doing great journalism again. So it
Speaker 2: was the the most fun I've ever had, the best
Speaker 2: job I've ever had, But it was at a time
Speaker 2: where when I was working there, it was the decline
Speaker 2: of the newspapers. I started in two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: and at the time a cover story like one of
Speaker 2: these stories in the book, a feature story would pay
Speaker 2: twenty five hundred dollars. By the time I left, seven
Speaker 2: years later, that same story paid about two hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty dollars, and we had gone from a staff of
Speaker 2: fifteen to three. But it was while it lasted. It
Speaker 2: was a fun ride, and I became known as the
Speaker 2: true crime guy because I'd write at a lot of
Speaker 2: these crime stories and they build up. And these are
Speaker 2: the twelve best that I've written, and a couple of
Speaker 2: them have been featured in Best American Crime Reporting and
Speaker 2: Best American Nonfiction, you know collections.
Speaker 3: Certainly, let's start with Joseph Kupchik and you call it
Speaker 3: again with suicide with a question mark.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you.
Speaker 3: Said it was suicide, it would be a very unusual
Speaker 3: way to do it. And his family and friends think
Speaker 3: it was murder. And he has a twin brother named John.
Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about Joe Cupchick and his
Speaker 3: brother and his gambling hobby. We'll say, sure.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm really glad we're doing this story because
Speaker 2: it's not as well known as I think it should be.
Speaker 2: And I got to know the family quite well when
Speaker 2: I was reporting on it, and you know, so the
Speaker 2: background of the story is Joe Cupchick was you know this,
Speaker 2: you know, a run of the mill young man living
Speaker 2: in northeast Ohio. And he had graduated and was attending college.
Speaker 2: And he had this twin brother, John, So it was
Speaker 2: Joe and John Cupchick, and they're identical, an identical twin.
Speaker 2: So he was living on you know, kind of the
Speaker 2: west side of Cleveland, and he had a couple of jobs.
Speaker 2: He was working at Wendy's and you know, with this
Speaker 2: group and and it also started working at Steak and Shake,
Speaker 2: which I don't know if that's kind of like a
Speaker 2: national chain, but it's you know, it's it's good. It's
Speaker 2: it's like a chain diner, you know, where you can
Speaker 2: get cheap hot dogs and hamburgers and French fries and
Speaker 2: spaghetti and uh, you know, he was doing that to
Speaker 2: make ends meet. Now, unknown to a lot of his
Speaker 2: friends and family, he was also very involved in online
Speaker 2: gambling and he had uh, you know, sometimes he was up,
Speaker 2: uh and sometimes he was down. And it looked like
Speaker 2: he was at the time that he died. Uh, he
Speaker 2: had lost just lost for his age, a decent sum
Speaker 2: of money. So the particulars of his death. He was
Speaker 2: supposed to work at Stake and Shake that day, and
Speaker 2: this is two thousand and six, and the story goes,
Speaker 2: he showed up for work and they didn't really need him,
Speaker 2: so they sent him home, and instead of going home,
Speaker 2: he drove into downtown Cleveland, about a twenty minute drive,
Speaker 2: and his car ends up in a parking deck that's
Speaker 2: owned by a bank downtown and it's several stories tall,
Speaker 2: and he drives up all the way to the top,
Speaker 2: you know where it's just open to the elements up top,
Speaker 2: and he parks the car flashed forward to the next night,
Speaker 2: you know that. Later that night, his body is found
Speaker 2: on the sidewalk low the parking deck, as if he
Speaker 2: had fallen that entire length, you know that that drop,
Speaker 2: and he's nearly dead when he's found. A guy that
Speaker 2: had come out of a bar comes across. His body.
Speaker 2: Didn't look like it had been there. Long calls ninety
Speaker 2: one to one. He's rushed to the hospital. He's still
Speaker 2: barely hanging on. He can't really talk at the hospital.
Speaker 2: He dies. And when I saw this case, I remember
Speaker 2: reading about it in the in the playing dealer, and
Speaker 2: the coroner had essentially written it off as a suicide,
Speaker 2: that he was despondent over these gambling losses and he
Speaker 2: jumped off the top of the parking garage and killed himself.
Speaker 2: But it just didn't sit right with me still. You know,
Speaker 2: I waited several months before I dove into it, and
Speaker 2: when I did, you know, it just had this feeling
Speaker 2: that this was going to be one of those pieses
Speaker 2: that was there's a little bit more under the surface
Speaker 2: than you expect. And sure enough. I mean, the first
Speaker 2: thing with this case is Joe has this identical twin
Speaker 2: which you know, picture this, you know, you know what
Speaker 2: the victim looks like, and he's he's six feet under,
Speaker 2: he's dead. But you have to interview this man who
Speaker 2: looks and talks exactly like exactly like it, you know,
Speaker 2: and knows him better than anybody else. So it was
Speaker 2: a very surreal experience for me to sit down with
Speaker 2: this guy that is essentially a you know, a double
Speaker 2: of of this this this young man he died. And
Speaker 2: so the article actually opens up with the dream sequence,
Speaker 2: and it through the mind of John, who to me
Speaker 2: described these nightmares that he was having where Joe was
Speaker 2: still alive and they were playing basketball. I thought that
Speaker 2: was very interesting, you know that there was still a
Speaker 2: part of Joe that that was alive inside his head.
Speaker 2: So you know that you've got that weirdness. And then
Speaker 2: you look at the particulars of you know, the death,
Speaker 2: and there's some weird things. You know, there are these
Speaker 2: like when they went into the car that Joe had
Speaker 2: left behind, you know, things were kind of out of place,
Speaker 2: and they looked at his body and they were like
Speaker 2: what the corner calls tick marks along his like abdomen
Speaker 2: and chest, and you know, the coroner suggested that these
Speaker 2: tick marks were used by a knife and it was
Speaker 2: Joe considering whether or not to stab himself before he
Speaker 2: leapt to his death, which is just it. You know,
Speaker 2: that one of the weirdest explanations I've ever heard, and
Speaker 2: that doesn't sit right with me either. So I went
Speaker 2: and tracked down his coworkers and that's when I discovered
Speaker 2: that when Joe left Stake and Shake that day, he
Speaker 2: didn't leave alone. He gave a ride. The reason he
Speaker 2: went downtown is he was asked to give a ride
Speaker 2: for this coworker named Brian, and Brian asked him to
Speaker 2: take him downtown Cleveland. So Joe was this, you know,
Speaker 2: he was he was kind of callable and extra nice,
Speaker 2: and so he left with this kid, Brian, and uh yeah,
Speaker 2: and then you find out that things are missing from
Speaker 2: from Joe, possibly a bit of money, and also his
Speaker 2: cell phone. His cell phone was never found, like if
Speaker 2: it was a suicide, where's that cell phone, you know?
Speaker 2: And why is it gone? So I'm like, well, I
Speaker 2: got to talk to this Brian kid, because he would
Speaker 2: have been at the very least, he would have been
Speaker 2: the last person to be with and see Joe. And
Speaker 2: then I find out that he's left the state, so
Speaker 2: you know, red flags start going up, and I find
Speaker 2: out that he is also in trouble with the law,
Speaker 2: and he has a warrant for his arrest and all these,
Speaker 2: you know, and it starts adding up. So I eventually
Speaker 2: tracked down Brian out of state and leave a message
Speaker 2: for him, and he's not calling me back. And about
Speaker 2: two o'clock in the morning, I'm sleeping, I'm in bed,
Speaker 2: and I get a call and it's Brian, and I
Speaker 2: answer it and we talked for a little bit and
Speaker 2: I've been reporting long enough where I think I've got
Speaker 2: a pretty good read on people and sense when they're
Speaker 2: conflicted about something, regardless of the fact of that they're
Speaker 2: calling me at two o'clock in the morning. But I
Speaker 2: could tell he had been drinking a little bit and
Speaker 2: there was something weighing on him, and he I think
Speaker 2: he got really close to telling me something very important
Speaker 2: that night, but he couldn't quite get there. And I
Speaker 2: told him, I said, I can hear it in your voice.
Speaker 2: You feel terrible, you know, why don't you just tell
Speaker 2: me what happened? And and he almost did. You know, He's, well,
Speaker 2: you know, I can't get there. I'm not there, So
Speaker 2: you know, it was a weird conversation and it left
Speaker 2: me feeling that at the very least, Brian knows more
Speaker 2: about what happened to Joe that night, and the corner
Speaker 2: had initially ruled it suicide, but because of these questions,
Speaker 2: the corner had to go and re assess the situation,
Speaker 2: and now Joe is technically lifted, as I believe, unknown
Speaker 2: like they don't. They're not saying it's suicide, they're not
Speaker 2: saying it's murder. They just are, you know, And he
Speaker 2: asked the corner, and he's like, well, for the family's sake,
Speaker 2: we're just saying it's not suicide. But there's so many
Speaker 2: questions here. One other little piece of this when I
Speaker 2: went to Stake and I found Joe's old manager and
Speaker 2: she was on duty, and I said, hey, I'm doing
Speaker 2: this story. Do you know anything and she her face
Speaker 2: kind of went white, just like you know, you read
Speaker 2: about it and it really does happen. And her eyes
Speaker 2: get wide and she says, yes, you know, there's something
Speaker 2: that you should know that I've that I've wanted to say,
Speaker 2: there's information that I have that that needs to be
Speaker 2: out there. And I said, well, great, you know, please
Speaker 2: share it with me and she said I can't. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, so why why in the world can't
Speaker 2: you share something about this, this this kid's death. And
Speaker 2: she said, well, if I talk to you, I'm going
Speaker 2: to lose my job. And you know, I look around
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you're working at Stake and shake you know,
Speaker 2: you're you're probably going to be able to get another
Speaker 2: job managing a restaurant. But you know, it was a
Speaker 2: flippant thing to say, but you know, at the time,
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking like when I was writing about
Speaker 2: it was like two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine,
Speaker 2: and the economy was just just at the bottom, especially
Speaker 2: in Cleveland, and everybody was fighting for jobs. So you know,
Speaker 2: in a way, I can't blame her, but in another,
Speaker 2: you know, in another sense, it's you're weighing this job
Speaker 2: at stake and shake against possibly giving closure to some
Speaker 2: kids murder. So it was very frustrating and the case
Speaker 2: is still unsolved, and I do very much believe it's murder.
Speaker 3: The family thought it was murder as well. And you
Speaker 3: talk of the the effort, the incredible effort by the father, George,
Speaker 3: to hire a private eye and to look into some
Speaker 3: of these things, and you do talk about that through
Speaker 3: their private investigations they found some the icing material and
Speaker 3: a container. Tell us a little bit about again that
Speaker 3: very promising lead once somebody looked at you know, the
Speaker 3: proximity of where he worked and also where this parking
Speaker 3: garage was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they found a number of odd of odd items.
Speaker 2: You know, I think the father at one time, you know,
Speaker 2: he was very adamant about you know, pushing this this theory,
Speaker 2: which I believe is true, that you know, that he
Speaker 2: was murdered. You know he he at one time submitted
Speaker 2: this list of questions and entitled Questions and Facts about
Speaker 2: Joseph kupchik Uh and on there. You know, top is
Speaker 2: is where is Joe's phone? Joe's cell phone? Why did
Speaker 2: he not call off work if he didn't want to
Speaker 2: arouse suspicion around his suicide? So you know, if he
Speaker 2: committed suicide, you know why if that was his plan,
Speaker 2: why go into work at all? You know, with there's
Speaker 2: some other other pieces here. If you know, Joe was
Speaker 2: found covered in blood, his body was, but there's no
Speaker 2: blood on the railing where he would have had to
Speaker 2: boost himself up. He placed an online bat that night
Speaker 2: four hundred and fifty dollars on Georgetown to win the
Speaker 2: NCAA tournament. And this knife that was found in the
Speaker 2: car that that supposedly was making tick marks. You know,
Speaker 2: where did that come from? Because it wasn't from It
Speaker 2: didn't match any of the knives at Stake and Shake.
Speaker 2: It wasn't his, you know, so the question is was
Speaker 2: it Bryan's? Uh? I'm sorry, I got I got a
Speaker 2: little off track, but you were asking about this de
Speaker 2: icing material that uh, that has to do with this
Speaker 2: idea that Joe's body might have been stored in age.
Speaker 2: His body might have been stored in a big box.
Speaker 2: So up in the parking deck you've got these giant
Speaker 2: blue boxes of like salt, like essentially de icing material
Speaker 2: that they would use in the winter to remove the
Speaker 2: ice and snow from the parking deck. And on Joe's
Speaker 2: close there was this compound that matched the de icing material.
Speaker 2: So the theory that the father put forth was that
Speaker 2: Joe was actually murdered when he drove up to Cleveland
Speaker 2: with Brian early that day, and then his body was
Speaker 2: stored in this box of the icing material until nighttime,
Speaker 2: and then whoever killed him brought him out of the
Speaker 2: box and tossed his body over the side to make
Speaker 2: it look like a suicide.
Speaker 3: With everything that you've looked at this, what is your
Speaker 3: theory other than he was murdered?
Speaker 2: You know? The all I can say is I think
Speaker 2: that Brian and his coworkers know a little more about
Speaker 2: what's going on, but they're you know, like a lot
Speaker 2: of these cases, when you really start looking at there
Speaker 2: a number of suspects that that you know, that had
Speaker 2: motive to kill Joe, believe it or not that The
Speaker 2: other thing we have gotten into is he had this
Speaker 2: manager at State at Wendy's where he worked before Stake
Speaker 2: and Shake, and this manager had gotten in trouble for
Speaker 2: embezzling a lot of money at a prior job. And
Speaker 2: it's possible that Joe had found out about this and
Speaker 2: maybe was was going to alert other people at the restaurant,
Speaker 2: and so, you know, this was he had some knowledge
Speaker 2: of this guy's criminal behavior. And when I went to
Speaker 2: question him, this guy's really squirrely and just an odd character,
Speaker 2: and he had been known to talk to Joe outside
Speaker 2: of work too. My hunch is that Joe met up
Speaker 2: with the wrong person downtown Cleveland, either he gave a
Speaker 2: ride to this person or met up with him there.
Speaker 2: And yes, I believe kind of what the father believed
Speaker 2: is that he was probably killed or you know, he
Speaker 2: didn't die until the hospital later on, but he was
Speaker 2: probably beat up pretty bad and during the day and
Speaker 2: either left in the car beside the car or left
Speaker 2: in this box of the icing material. And then the
Speaker 2: killer thought after he got home, he's like, well, you know,
Speaker 2: how can I cover this up more? And it makes sense,
Speaker 2: you know, let's toss his body over the side. So
Speaker 2: they went back under the cover of night and and
Speaker 2: tossed it over. And you would think, well, so let's
Speaker 2: get the security footage right of this parking deck, and
Speaker 2: the parking decks owned by.
Speaker 3: A bank.
Speaker 2: It's a big bank in Cleveland, and they end up
Speaker 2: destroying the tape before anybody can really see it. Mm hmm. Yes,
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a it's an unfortunate case. You know,
Speaker 2: there are a number of ways that it could have
Speaker 2: been solved. But since the corner ruled it suicide at first,
Speaker 2: the cops weren't really interested in it at all, until
Speaker 2: you know, until after my article came out, until after
Speaker 2: the family.
Speaker 3: Pushed Yeah that you got to say that some you
Speaker 3: can only conclude it was an incredible effort to have
Speaker 3: justice done in here at all that did even was
Speaker 3: an investigation of murder in this case.
Speaker 2: And when people hear about it, you know, sometimes their
Speaker 2: wheels get turning, and you know, they jump to this
Speaker 2: idea of maybe, well, it has to be a conspiracy,
Speaker 2: right because the bank destroyed the tape in the corner
Speaker 2: world at suicide when it's obviously a murder and all
Speaker 2: these people are involved. But you know, I've come what
Speaker 2: I've come to learn as a true crime reporter is that,
Speaker 2: you know, don't ever ascribe to conspiracy. What can be
Speaker 2: explained through laziness. And unfortunately, I think that's what happened
Speaker 2: here is you know, the corner, the police, the bank,
Speaker 2: everybody just wanted it to go away and didn't want
Speaker 2: to work work and look into it. And you know
Speaker 2: they were able to push it off their desk and
Speaker 2: now they don't have that case to work on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about what you call time is death itself,
Speaker 3: the unsolved murder of Beverly jar Ros sixteen years old.
Speaker 3: And you say that we didn't allude it into any introduction,
Speaker 3: that she knew death wanted her and she did everything
Speaker 3: to prepare for it. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: You talk about poems and but let's take us back
Speaker 3: to this summer of sixty four when she receives an
Speaker 3: anonymous present door of her family home. What is this
Speaker 3: tell us about Beverly Jarrow's and that day?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Beverly Jarros is I mean, she's sixteen years
Speaker 2: old and you know she's just this bright eyed, very smart,
Speaker 2: artistic beautiful young woman. And this is also the oldest
Speaker 2: case I've ever looked into. Most of the cases I
Speaker 2: write about her are very contemporary, but this was sixty four.
Speaker 2: It's still to this day such a big case in
Speaker 2: the Cleveland area. And when I'd go to libraries and
Speaker 2: talk about Amy Mahlivik or Joe Kopchik and all these
Speaker 2: other cases, at the end of these talks, people would
Speaker 2: always come up to me and they'd say, Hey, have
Speaker 2: you ever looked into Beverly Jarros? That's my case, That's
Speaker 2: that's the case I grew up with. So eventually I
Speaker 2: had to just just look into this. And so things
Speaker 2: started to get a little hinky, a little strange for
Speaker 2: Beverly Jarros in the summer of sixty four, and she
Speaker 2: realized that she had a secret admirer. And this person
Speaker 2: left this gift wrath box from Higbee's, which was this
Speaker 2: you know, ritzy department store downtown Cleveland, tied up with
Speaker 2: the blue ribbon, and you know, they had written to
Speaker 2: BEV on the box, and inside she found a silver
Speaker 2: bracelet and ring. So this this really creeped and she
Speaker 2: knew she was being admired, but she didn't know who
Speaker 2: it was. So she one of the things she did
Speaker 2: was she got a letter opener and she kept it
Speaker 2: by her bed for protection. And she told people that
Speaker 2: she just had this this feeling that that death was
Speaker 2: catching up with her, that something was catching up with her.
Speaker 2: She had this ex boyfriend, Schultzy, Dan Schultzi, who was
Speaker 2: kind of like this wild guy in the neighborhood, you know,
Speaker 2: this this like playboy, you know, greaser type, and she
Speaker 2: had broken up with him and he took it really poorly,
Speaker 2: and she was now dating a very clean cut, like
Speaker 2: the opposite of Dan, this this guy Roger, and you know,
Speaker 2: he was he was so conservative even at I think
Speaker 2: he was probably nineteen eighteen, nineteen years old because he
Speaker 2: was in college, a little bit older than her. But
Speaker 2: he was so conservative that he was one of the
Speaker 2: people that was trying to bring back the old Vatican,
Speaker 2: you know, because they had just moved to Vatican too,
Speaker 2: which you know, so they took the old Latin out
Speaker 2: of the Sunday services so you know, so people could
Speaker 2: understand what was being said, you know. Here, so kind
Speaker 2: of you know, weirdly conservative for a kid, and very
Speaker 2: you know, he had this this hot temper, and you know,
Speaker 2: so she had these boys, but she felt that this
Speaker 2: admirer was somebody else and it really freaked her out.
Speaker 2: So she took precautions. You know, she didn't she wasn't
Speaker 2: alone much and she had this this letter opener. Well,
Speaker 2: flash forward to you know, just after Christmas, December twenty eighth,
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four. She is supposed to meet up with
Speaker 2: a friend. She's doing some errands that day with her sister.
Speaker 2: She ends up getting a ride back to her house
Speaker 2: dropped off, and she goes inside the house and she's alone.
Speaker 2: And this for this window of like ten minutes between
Speaker 2: being dropped off and before her friend shows up to
Speaker 2: pick her up and they were going to go out,
Speaker 2: and sometime in those ten minutes, somebody gets into her
Speaker 2: house and Beverly is found stabbed multiple times. But the
Speaker 2: stabbings are not what killed her. What killed her was
Speaker 2: that she was strangled to death by a piece of clothesline.
Speaker 2: And which which is odd too, because most killers they
Speaker 2: pick one method of killing. You know, this guy had too.
Speaker 2: You know, why was he Why was she stabbed and
Speaker 2: joked to death? Why not one or the other. So
Speaker 2: it's it's a weird m My thought was always, did
Speaker 2: she did this person surprise her when she went up
Speaker 2: to her room to change and and you know, put
Speaker 2: this noose around her neck, and she had something waiting
Speaker 2: to defend herself, and this person got so angry that
Speaker 2: he snatched it from her and stabbed her with it.
Speaker 2: That would explain why there's two methods of murder there.
Speaker 2: And my first thought was the letter opener, but the
Speaker 2: sister swears that the better opener was eventually found and
Speaker 2: was not the murder weapon. So whatever she was stabbed
Speaker 2: with was never never found. So those are the particulars
Speaker 2: of what happens at her and then you know, the
Speaker 2: story after that is you know who did this? And
Speaker 2: that's that's why we're still wondering to this day now.
Speaker 3: At that time, they questioned various men and there was
Speaker 3: a gentleman named Bruce Biddock I believe her Billick, these
Speaker 3: twenty one year old college student who lived directly behind
Speaker 3: Bev's house, and the detectives had discovered a note Bev
Speaker 3: had written to her friend Margie.
Speaker 2: What was that?
Speaker 3: What was contained in a note? And why were police
Speaker 3: suspicious and what did they do as a result?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, she's she's an average sixteen year
Speaker 2: old who had encounters with with these these boys. I mean,
Speaker 2: she was she was a very attractive young woman, and
Speaker 2: she got a lot of attention, and some of the
Speaker 2: attention came from this twenty one year old, you know,
Speaker 2: Bruce Buyolot, who lived nearby, and the police discovered a
Speaker 2: note that Bev had written to a friend. In what
Speaker 2: she says, Bruce came over to see what I looked
Speaker 2: like when I'm not dressed. I have my blue rob
Speaker 2: on and my hair is still in curlers. So you know,
Speaker 2: it's a little provocative, and obviously Bruce was hindo her.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he was one of the people that they
Speaker 2: really set their sights on. And eventually, you know, they
Speaker 2: really honed in on three particular individuals. They're the ex
Speaker 2: boyfriend Dan Cholti, the current boyfriend Roger, and a third
Speaker 2: individual named John Pallian, who at the time of the
Speaker 2: murder was a young man who was out of school
Speaker 2: and living just a couple of doors down from Bev,
Speaker 2: and he had admitted to spying on her and watching
Speaker 2: her sunbathe and all this creepy stuff. And he doesn't
Speaker 2: really have an alibi for the murder. So at the
Speaker 2: time that I wrote the article, those were kind of
Speaker 2: like the three top suspects. But I have to tell
Speaker 2: you that I recently talked to the detective involved in
Speaker 2: this case because we just hit I believe the fiftieth
Speaker 2: or were coming up on the fiftieth anniversary of this murder,
Speaker 2: and he tells me that the boyfriend Roger and John
Speaker 2: Pallian have all but been ruled out. They think it
Speaker 2: seems as though they have part partial DNA of Beverly's killer,
Speaker 2: so there's a good chance that eventually this case will
Speaker 2: be solved. Still, even though it's so old, so they're
Speaker 2: still interested in Dan Shultzy. One of the reasons they're
Speaker 2: so interested is he no longer lives in the country
Speaker 2: and he sawere is he Well he's he's in Israel.
Speaker 2: What's interesting about Israel. Well, they don't extradite, so they're
Speaker 2: still very much interested in them. But I also hear
Speaker 2: that they have two new suspects, which after all these
Speaker 2: years kind of blows my mind. And these are two
Speaker 2: guys that may not even be in my In my story, you.
Speaker 3: Talk about at the time when they looked at Dan
Speaker 3: Schulty and Roger McNamara and the other neighbor. That's part
Speaker 3: of their arsenal for as a tool and they believe,
Speaker 3: you know, quite a bit in this technology was the
Speaker 3: polygraph itself. So what do they do with these did
Speaker 3: these gentlemen pass the polygraph or fail? What's the results
Speaker 3: and what do they do when they with these results
Speaker 3: of these polygraph tests and these three suspects.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, polygraphs are a funny thing. It's polygraphs are
Speaker 2: technically a you know, they don't really work like we
Speaker 2: see them in CSI and then the TV shows they're
Speaker 2: they're essentially only as good as the as the person
Speaker 2: who reads them, and they're considered just another tool of investigation.
Speaker 2: So however, it's it's shaking out when they're asking tough
Speaker 2: questions like have you been with with Beverly Jarras or
Speaker 2: were you there that they have for murdered. Whenever the
Speaker 2: is squiggling away at the the police officer, the detective
Speaker 2: is free to lean in and say, follow this doesn't
Speaker 2: look good for you. This this uh, I don't like
Speaker 2: this reaction when you know, essentially they could just it
Speaker 2: might as well be reading tea leaves, So I wouldn't
Speaker 2: read too much into these polygraphs. And even if they
Speaker 2: even if they said back then that some were ruled
Speaker 2: out or some were inconclusive. You know, there's a reason
Speaker 2: why polygraphs aren't aren't allowed in court. But they certainly
Speaker 2: used them to intimidate some of the suspects. And uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the papers always love it when they find
Speaker 2: out that, you know, somebody has been polygraphed, whether or
Speaker 2: not they they feel they've they've passed or failed. So
Speaker 2: I always get a little anxious when the subject of
Speaker 2: polygraphs come out because there's not much. There's not much
Speaker 2: to them. Did you when reading it?
Speaker 3: Did it?
Speaker 2: I don't know what did you make of What did
Speaker 2: you make of that?
Speaker 3: Well, I just I brought it up because in countless
Speaker 3: stories the polygraph is taken to eliminate suspects. They're pretty
Speaker 3: certain that they can eliminate the suspect based on the polygraph,
Speaker 3: and many of these stories that's proven to be quite foolish. So,
Speaker 3: I mean, they don't have any validity in court. And
Speaker 3: so as we see now, they they're not used the
Speaker 3: same way as a tool because they can send the
Speaker 3: investigation in completely wrong direction, so right, and obviously with
Speaker 3: this there's not They're not getting any any verification or
Speaker 3: clarification or any indication from these polygraphs of any value,
Speaker 3: it seems obviously.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, you know, I I think that what's
Speaker 2: going to close this case. The only thing that can
Speaker 2: close it after all this time is DNA. And it
Speaker 2: sounds like they do have a killer's DNA, but again,
Speaker 2: it's not like CSI where you feed it into a
Speaker 2: computer and it goes through everybody's image and you know,
Speaker 2: spits out the killer Sometimes what you have is degraded DNA,
Speaker 2: which is probably what they have in this case, where
Speaker 2: you know, they have a snippet of you know, these
Speaker 2: these genes and you have to find a potential suspects
Speaker 2: DNA and then actually physically sit there and try and
Speaker 2: match them up on you know, like see through paper
Speaker 2: to see if it matches to a sequence of you know,
Speaker 2: the suspects DNA. So it might not even be a
Speaker 2: full strand. And what what I was told is is,
Speaker 2: you know, they're waiting for technology to catch up and
Speaker 2: maybe there'll be advancements in DNA in the future that
Speaker 2: can give them a full strand of DNA or or
Speaker 2: match it more completely to a specific suspect. But they
Speaker 2: have used the DNA to rule out some suspects and
Speaker 2: I believe that that's why John Tallian and the boyfriend
Speaker 2: Roger are rolled out. At this point.
Speaker 3: You talk about that she was not sexually assaulted, which
Speaker 3: is very very interesting in this as well. Once they
Speaker 3: found that out, Yeah, and also that that that they
Speaker 3: assumed that it was someone that Bev knew. They said
Speaker 3: there was no struggle downstairs, only upstairs.
Speaker 2: Yes, it had to be somebody that Bev knew, because
Speaker 2: that house was kept locked at all times. And remember
Speaker 2: she's also very suspicious at this point when she thinks
Speaker 2: somebody is going to possibly attack her. So when they
Speaker 2: when they eventually got there, they found I believe, but
Speaker 2: the back door and the side door unlocked, so it
Speaker 2: appears as as though Bev let somebody in the side
Speaker 2: door and she don't let somebody in if she knew them.
Speaker 2: And then there was a struggle. They ended up upstairs
Speaker 2: where she was murdered in this kind of tiny bedroom
Speaker 2: that she shared with their sister. And then the killer
Speaker 2: ran out the back door and her friend Barb comes
Speaker 2: over to pick her up and when she gets there,
Speaker 2: she knocks on the door, assuming it's the side door,
Speaker 2: assuming it's locked, and she can hear loud music inside.
Speaker 2: And it's believed by the police that the killers actually
Speaker 2: inside at that time was using the music to mask
Speaker 2: the assault and may have even escaped out the back
Speaker 2: door while Barb was sitting on the front stoop.
Speaker 3: You also say too, that the media demanded an arrest.
Speaker 3: In January eleventh, a seventeen year old boy committed suicide.
Speaker 3: And then from there, what did people assume?
Speaker 2: Yeah, people think the media today is out of control.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you that the media fifty years ago,
Speaker 2: when Cleveland had three daily papers competing with each other,
Speaker 2: it was I mean, it was like tabloid fodder when
Speaker 2: something like this would happen. And you know, so they
Speaker 2: have this beautiful Catholic schoolgirl, you know, brutally murdered. I
Speaker 2: mean that ran and sold so many papers back then,
Speaker 2: and they were trying to outdo themselves with details, and
Speaker 2: so they'd latch onto things like this that probably had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with anything. You know, this poor kid's suicide,
Speaker 2: but he happened to do it within proximity of where
Speaker 2: she lived, so Oh my gosh. You know, let's you know,
Speaker 2: he must be involved in this, and you know the
Speaker 2: the there was a lot harder back then to sue,
Speaker 2: you know, for defamation, you know, the loss protecting you know,
Speaker 2: people that weren't you know, celebrities didn't come around until later.
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Speaker 3: to cook. We just spoke about the ongoing search for
Speaker 3: the killer of Beverly Jarros, and you talk about the
Speaker 3: media being brutal. And when people talk about comparing the
Speaker 3: media today to the media in the past, who just
Speaker 3: did some stories of over one hundred years ago, that
Speaker 3: even worse. Let's talk about the unsolved murder of Andrea Flinnery.
Speaker 3: Yeah you talk about.
Speaker 2: Andrea Andrea Flinori. Yeah, she's got kind of a different name. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is, you know, talking about the role of the media.
Speaker 2: When I wrote the story at a time when I
Speaker 2: was starting to get a reputation in Cleveland as a
Speaker 2: true crime guy, and I'd written a lot of stories
Speaker 2: about missing or murdered white people, right, you know, Beverly Jaros.
Speaker 2: You know, the reason her case is so popular is that,
Speaker 2: you know, missing white girls syndrome or the murdered white
Speaker 2: girl syndrome. You know, she was beautiful and popular, and so,
Speaker 2: you know, I took some of the critiques that would
Speaker 2: come in by readers seriously where they said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: why are you not paying attention to these murdered women
Speaker 2: of color on the East Side.
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to find the case that that
Speaker 2: that could work that way, and I picked Andrea Flanori.
Speaker 2: Now the tricky part with this is that Andrea she
Speaker 2: worked as At the time of her murder, she was
Speaker 2: working as a stripper, and she would supplement that with activity.
Speaker 2: She was also working as a prostitute. So when the
Speaker 2: story came out, I got a ton of just ugly
Speaker 2: emails and letters from people saying, you know, why would
Speaker 2: you waste any sort of time investigating a prostitute's murder
Speaker 2: or investigating this young, you know, African American woman's murder.
Speaker 2: So Yeah, it revealed this this ugly racial tension in
Speaker 2: Cleveland that I had really not seen before. So I'm
Speaker 2: very proud of of this story because, you know, shee
Speaker 2: What I wanted to show was that Andrea, she was
Speaker 2: still somebody's daughter, and she had still come she still
Speaker 2: had her own history, and she came from in fact,
Speaker 2: a small town outside of Youngtown. And in high school
Speaker 2: she was very popular. He was a cheerleader, she was
Speaker 2: a nice kid. And after high school she fell on
Speaker 2: some really hard times through circumstance, through choices of her own,
Speaker 2: and she ended up in the wrong part of Akron,
Speaker 2: living with an abusive some say an abusive boyfriend, and
Speaker 2: he knew what she was doing, that she was stripping
Speaker 2: that and he would come to the strip club sometimes
Speaker 2: and cause problems, and he knew she was she was prostituting.
Speaker 2: So she worked at the strip club at Arlington in Exchange,
Speaker 2: which anybody from Akron and I know that's not that's
Speaker 2: not a large population of your listeners, I'm sure, but
Speaker 2: it is. It's the red light district, you know, it's
Speaker 2: the sedious part of that's the epicenter of all trouble
Speaker 2: in Akron and there's a strip club there called Lisa's Cabaret,
Speaker 2: which has now been shuttered, and that's where she worked,
Speaker 2: and she could show up anytime she wanted. She was
Speaker 2: very popular down there. Sometimes after work she would walk
Speaker 2: down to the corner and stand there until somebody wanted
Speaker 2: to pick her up. And allegedly that's what she did
Speaker 2: the night of her murder, and she was found by
Speaker 2: fishermen the next morning. Her body was wrapped in chains
Speaker 2: and she had been dumped in a little tributary of
Speaker 2: a river in a small community called Coventry, which is
Speaker 2: how I came to learn about it to begin with,
Speaker 2: because my wife is a teacher at the high school there,
Speaker 2: and you from the high school, you can see where
Speaker 2: with this girl's body was found. So nobody was covering it,
Speaker 2: and so I jumped in and looked into it and
Speaker 2: worked with the detectives, and we quickly came to discover that, oh,
Speaker 2: there are two other women that fit the motive here
Speaker 2: that were found either wrapped in chains or wrapped in
Speaker 2: something and put in rivers, but further south, like around Canton.
Speaker 2: So there was a serial killer working around town at
Speaker 2: that time and the murders and he was picking, you know,
Speaker 2: just like the Green River killer. He was picking a
Speaker 2: subset of people who might not be missed or might
Speaker 2: not be reported on. And there are at least three
Speaker 2: that seemed to be linked. And this guy is as
Speaker 2: we know, it's never been caught, or maybe he's sitting
Speaker 2: in prison for an unrelated crime and that's why they
Speaker 2: stopped or he moved. But yeah, Andrea met up with
Speaker 2: She got a ride with the wrong person that night,
Speaker 2: and we haven't been able to find him yet.
Speaker 3: What's interesting is when you look at the obvious, at
Speaker 3: least the way police look at it, the obvious suspects potentially,
Speaker 3: and they talk about a man that was ten years
Speaker 3: her senior, that she met years before, named Jason Conrad,
Speaker 3: and you talk about that's the boyfriend. But there is
Speaker 3: also this January two thousand and four, This is August
Speaker 3: two thousand and five, when she's found. What are the
Speaker 3: charges against him according to the police reports that are
Speaker 3: very interesting in terms of him being a suspect.
Speaker 2: As a result, refresh my memory here, it's actually been
Speaker 2: a while since I've thought about this case. Is Conrad?
Speaker 2: Is Conrad the boyfriend that she met up with.
Speaker 3: He's he's the guy that in two thousand and four
Speaker 3: he beat her then held a knife to her face.
Speaker 3: They were both the rest of her domestic assault, but
Speaker 3: she said he had grabbed her by the neck.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you know there's this. You know again, it's this,
Speaker 2: you know, allegations of it. Definitely seems as though it
Speaker 2: was a very troubled relationship and he would definitely cause
Speaker 2: problems in her life. You know, not a decent guy.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, when he found out about
Speaker 2: Andrea's murder, you know, he just he broke down and
Speaker 2: it was a really emotional, very honest response to her murder.
Speaker 2: I mean, he you know, he's one of these guys
Speaker 2: that treats that treats his his girlfriend terribly, but at
Speaker 2: the same time, you know, she's also the best thing
Speaker 2: in his life. What was interesting to me is, uh,
Speaker 2: some of the other places that Andrea had been known
Speaker 2: to work at. She was working at Lisa's, but she'd
Speaker 2: also worked at this place called Flash Dance, and that
Speaker 2: place stood out to me right away because Flash Dance
Speaker 2: was like one of the last places that this this
Speaker 2: young man named Stephen Spade had been seen. And there's
Speaker 2: this bartender named Lisa Pennix, who attended bar at flash Dance,
Speaker 2: and she and a couple of her matheatic friends lured
Speaker 2: Stephen back to him and and killed him. He ended
Speaker 2: up decapitated and they drove his body out of town
Speaker 2: set on fire. I mean, it was just a mess.
Speaker 2: And there's this group of really depraved individuals that did
Speaker 2: to Lisa that Andrea. I'm sorry that Andrea would have
Speaker 2: known that we know for sure are capable of murder,
Speaker 2: but doesn't really fit them o of you know, being
Speaker 2: wrapped in chains and put in a river like these
Speaker 2: other women from camp.
Speaker 3: And also a detective Noll. He said they determined or
Speaker 3: he believed anyway, that there was no connection between the cases.
Speaker 2: Is that correct? Yes, But I I you know, again,
Speaker 2: when the detective says that they've ruled something out or
Speaker 2: determined that there's no connection. As a reporter, I never
Speaker 2: I never take that with one hundred percent faith. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe there was something they missed or or or looked
Speaker 2: at wrong. You know, there have been many other cases
Speaker 2: where somebody has been ruled out, only two, only for
Speaker 2: the police to realize later that they were a little
Speaker 2: more clever than they expected.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and with the family did not want to speak
Speaker 3: to the media whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can't and you can't blame them, you know,
Speaker 2: because of you know, I think there's this stigma, you know,
Speaker 2: and this this shame around you know, what Andrew was
Speaker 2: doing for a living and how she was making ends meet,
Speaker 2: and there'd been a falling out with the family too,
Speaker 2: And I think they wanted to remember the girl that
Speaker 2: lived in the small town outside of Youngstown, that was
Speaker 2: a teer reader at or High school. And this this
Speaker 2: sunny girl, not the not the person that she had
Speaker 2: that she had become. Unfortunately.
Speaker 3: Another sad point is that she was they discovered she
Speaker 3: was six weeks, six weeks away from being pregnant. Yeah,
Speaker 3: six weeks pregnant, and the father was her boyfriend.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, So let's talk about you know, some
Speaker 2: some people would look at that as motive, but I
Speaker 2: think that that explains why the boyfriend broke down and
Speaker 2: less so sad when he learned that that that she
Speaker 2: was dead.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the unsolved murder of Tony Daniels. You say,
Speaker 3: a Mexican landscaper is cutting grass, finds a skull in
Speaker 3: the woods, and uh, a detective Arcurry Westlake Police Station.
Speaker 3: What do they determine just with this skull? How does
Speaker 3: this investigation proceed from there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is another story that it was hard to
Speaker 2: report on that that the mainstream media hadn't really done
Speaker 2: because you know, Tommy Daniels was Vietnamese and you know,
Speaker 2: he was this you know, part of the culture that
Speaker 2: that doesn't end up in the papers a lot. You know,
Speaker 2: he was, you know, not the typical story. And this
Speaker 2: landscape paper is in uh, you know, over on the
Speaker 2: West Side, and you know he's he's working behind an
Speaker 2: office building and you know, mowing the grass and he
Speaker 2: decides to step into the woods to take a leak.
Speaker 2: And when he does, he looks down and there's this
Speaker 2: human skull. And that's how they they are able to
Speaker 2: find this, uh Tony Daniels, who had been missing for
Speaker 2: a while. And you got to hand it to Arcurie,
Speaker 2: who was a detective at the time. And I believe
Speaker 2: now he believe he's the chief of police up there.
Speaker 2: Now he's he's he's moved up in the world, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, he jumped on this and was avid about
Speaker 2: trying to find out who who killed Tony Daniels. And
Speaker 2: his real name, by the way, is he Hugh My
Speaker 2: And uh so he he jumped into this, was able
Speaker 2: to figure out who it was based on you know,
Speaker 2: dental records, and wanted to try and figure out what happened.
Speaker 2: And just like Andrea Filanori, you know, Tony was he
Speaker 2: was with the wrong crowd, you know. He he was
Speaker 2: with you know, surrounded by you know, criminal types, and
Speaker 2: you know, I believe he was involved or dating a
Speaker 2: woman who was who was known to be a prostitute.
Speaker 2: His friend had you know, been you know, has a
Speaker 2: criminal history as well. So yeah, he had his work
Speaker 2: cut out for him trying to figure out what happened
Speaker 2: to Tony.
Speaker 3: It's interesting how they come to find who this is
Speaker 3: and not through the you know, fingerprint search or anything.
Speaker 3: Talk about how they come to identify this young man.
Speaker 2: So they speak to this very well known forensic person
Speaker 2: who eventually well, first they reach out to this anthropologist
Speaker 2: at Kin State, this doctor CEO and Lovejoy, who has
Speaker 2: appeared on a numerous you know, true crime shows. He's
Speaker 2: the one they go to when you come up with
Speaker 2: a big question here in Cleveland, and he was you
Speaker 2: know what they went to him to try and figure
Speaker 2: out like the age and race of the victim of this,
Speaker 2: you know, who the skull belonged to. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, you've got Tony's mother, who ever since he's
Speaker 2: gone missing, has been calling the coroner like every day,
Speaker 2: every time somebody, every time a body is found in
Speaker 2: Cuyahoga County. You know, she's on the phone trying to
Speaker 2: find out if it's her missing son. So, you know,
Speaker 2: she kind of collides with with r. Curi and they
Speaker 2: both start wondering if this, in fact is Tony Daniels. Now,
Speaker 2: Tony was mugged a few months before he disappeared, and
Speaker 2: he had been hit in the face with a with
Speaker 2: a gun, ended up in the hospital and that's when
Speaker 2: he got an X ray of his of his head.
Speaker 2: And his mother, you know, she's so so very you know, proactive,
Speaker 2: had kept those x rays. And so Artury finds out
Speaker 2: about this and and calls her up and says, hey,
Speaker 2: you know you got those X rays still, absolutely, So
Speaker 2: Artury picks up the X rays and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: he's he's he's kind of comparing this to the the
Speaker 2: skull and it it's a match in his mind. So
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's the it's the foresight of this
Speaker 2: mother who nobody's really listening to, and and the hunch
Speaker 2: of this detective. And if not for if not for
Speaker 2: that confluence of events, you know, we still might not
Speaker 2: be able to to know who this this skull belonged to.
Speaker 3: Right you talk about Tony's girlfriend was this uh Tara Shores,
Speaker 3: and he lived with her and they ran an escort
Speaker 3: company called TNT. But there was also this Frank Marvey
Speaker 3: he has he's also seeing a woman named Tina Marvey
Speaker 3: with that's a pronunciation tell us about this triangle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think I believe it. I believe it's
Speaker 2: pronounced mave. So you've got Tony and Tara, who are
Speaker 2: running this escort company, and then you've got Frank and
Speaker 2: Tina May. Now Tony was was seeing Tina, you know,
Speaker 2: he's kind of seeing her on the side. Tina was
Speaker 2: working as a prostitute, same as Tara. But you know
Speaker 2: Tina was married to Frank, and Frank's kind of this
Speaker 2: uh this really rough, dude. So the night before Tony disappeared,
Speaker 2: he spent the night at Lakewood Days In with with Tina,
Speaker 2: this married woman. They checked out around noon. Then Tony
Speaker 2: rents this U haul and is spending the afternoon moving
Speaker 2: equipment from his into his new business on Lorraine Avenue
Speaker 2: in that section of Lorrain is not so nice either.
Speaker 2: That's actually not far from where Amanda Barry and Gina
Speaker 2: DeJesus were abducted. So the suggestion is that Frank found
Speaker 2: out this affair and tracked and the timing chure works
Speaker 2: out right, and tracked down Tony and either killed him
Speaker 2: at this this business of his and and covered it up,
Speaker 2: or you know elsewhere.
Speaker 3: They utilize technology and run prints at that time, but
Speaker 3: then again they run prints again. What is the impetus
Speaker 3: for them running prints at a different time and world?
Speaker 3: Will you talk about a suspect that comes up, Well,
Speaker 3: tell us about that how he comes to be a suspect.
Speaker 2: Here. So they find Tony's car after he was missing.
Speaker 2: The car is found abandoned on Sylvia Drive, which is
Speaker 2: not too far from this this friend of his name
Speaker 2: the Sherman Kyle's childhood home, and you know Tony knew
Speaker 2: the Skuy sherman. And they process his car and then
Speaker 2: police find fingerprints on the passenger side and they're fed
Speaker 2: into aphis, which is you know, that's the automated fingerprint
Speaker 2: identification system that the cops used to to try and
Speaker 2: match up fingerprints. And so when Tony went missing in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven, they fed these fingerprints in and it
Speaker 2: didn't get a match. So Arcurry when he finds the
Speaker 2: skull and gets the case. After tony skull is found
Speaker 2: in his jurisdiction, R. Curry runs the Prince again and
Speaker 2: this time there's a hit and the Prince mentch This guy.
Speaker 3: GK.
Speaker 2: Thomas of Boujou, who in in Cleveland is a local
Speaker 2: hip hip hop artist. Now the reason why he came
Speaker 2: to know Tony is Tony had this had had an
Speaker 2: aspiration of becoming a record producer and was working with
Speaker 2: a GK on a rap album. Now Arcurry, so cart
Speaker 2: Arcuri tracks this guy down, this hip hop artists down
Speaker 2: and and he says, yeah, I was in the back
Speaker 2: of Tony Tony's car. And he goes back and says
Speaker 2: he remembers that it was actually Sherman Kyle who was
Speaker 2: driving Tony's car. And remember Tony's car was found right
Speaker 2: near where Sherman Kyle grew up, like right around the
Speaker 2: corner from his childhood home. So this of course is
Speaker 2: starting to raise red flags. So you know, Sherman Kyle
Speaker 2: definitely ends up on Arcurry's radar.
Speaker 3: And what happens as a result from from being on
Speaker 3: that radar, we know it's still on salt.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know when I reported on this case,
Speaker 2: you know, back then it had kind of you know,
Speaker 2: our Curry was very eedamant that he was going to
Speaker 2: solve this case. It is still unfortunately unsolved to this
Speaker 2: day and they haven't been able to. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 2: definitively link anybody, for sure. But you know, I think
Speaker 2: the GK and Sherman and Frank may are you all
Speaker 2: persons of interest in here.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we don't have enough time to go into all
Speaker 3: of the other cases. I've really wanted to talk about.
Speaker 3: The unsolved murder of Ramona protein very very interesting. You
Speaker 3: also feature Cleveland's strangest unsolved bank heist, and in nineteen
Speaker 3: sixty nine. There are other stories that we just didn't
Speaker 3: get to. I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 3: coming on and talking about the Serial Killers, Apprentice and
Speaker 3: other stories of Cleveland's most intriguing unsolved crimes. Do you
Speaker 3: have a website? Or a Facebook page that people might
Speaker 3: go to to see other work and if they want
Speaker 3: to contact you about anything in particular.
Speaker 2: Course, Yeah, you can find all my stuff at James
Speaker 2: Renner dot com. Uh so that's that's easy peasy you
Speaker 2: James Renner R E N N E R.
Speaker 3: Yes. Well, thank you very much James for this interview.
Speaker 3: I hope to talk to you again real soon. You
Speaker 3: have a great night, that'd be great.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, Toby, thank you, good night.
Speaker 2: H