Speaker 1: Welcome back to the deep dive. Ready to dive into
Speaker 1: some seriously fascinating stuff today. Always we're talking security engineering,
Speaker 1: a world that's honestly more relevant now than ever before.
Speaker 2: I can't agree more.
Speaker 1: You know you are amazing. Listeners sent in some excerpts
Speaker 1: from Security Engineering, A Guide to Building Dependable Distributed system Ah.
Speaker 2: Yes, by Ross Anderson.
Speaker 1: Exactly, And let me tell you, this book is dense.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 1: It's packed with so much. It's a foundational.
Speaker 2: Text, absolutely foundational. So our mission, Yeah, what are we
Speaker 2: trying to do today.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to extract the good stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: those valuable nuggets that are going to make you.
Speaker 2: Go aha, I love those moments.
Speaker 1: Right, and connect it to your everyday life, because, believe
Speaker 1: it or not, this stuff it's everywhere.
Speaker 2: It really is. It impacts everyone, even if you don't
Speaker 2: think you're a tech person one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what we're going to do. We're gonna
Speaker 1: make it real for you. So, for example, the book
Speaker 1: talks about how how anonymized data can be surprisingly revealing.
Speaker 1: Like they even talk about how someone could potentially identify
Speaker 1: Tony Blair, a former primit Yeah, from a simple medical
Speaker 1: data Quarry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just basic details like his age and gender and
Speaker 2: date of treatment could be enough to pinpoint him.
Speaker 1: Right. It makes you think twice about how anonymous our
Speaker 1: data truly is.
Speaker 2: It's a good point to consider, for sure.
Speaker 1: Definitely unsettling, but it's important to know. The book also
Speaker 1: talks about home security systems and how vulnerable they can be.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a big one.
Speaker 1: It's not just about picking locks anymore.
Speaker 2: Right, there's software vulnerabilities to think about, physical components that
Speaker 2: can be manipulated.
Speaker 1: And then there's the whole evolution of passwords. Remember when
Speaker 1: we were told to change them every few weeks.
Speaker 2: I do, And now it's all about long passphrases.
Speaker 1: I know what changed? Well.
Speaker 2: The book explains that those frequent changes often made people
Speaker 2: choose weaker passwords or variations of old ones, which made
Speaker 2: them easier to crrack.
Speaker 1: Oh it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, longer unique passphrases are actually much harder to guess.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: Actually, it's all about understanding the psychology behind it as well.
Speaker 1: It always feels like the bad guys are one step ahead,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: It's a constant game of cat and mouse.
Speaker 1: The book even talks about this with keyless entry systems
Speaker 1: for cars.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the back and forth between security researchers and
Speaker 2: car manufacturers the wild. It really highlights how the landscape
Speaker 2: of security threats is constantly evolving.
Speaker 1: And that's actually a perfect segue into our first discussion
Speaker 1: point today, the evolving landscape of security threats.
Speaker 2: Let's dive in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. It seems like the days of
Speaker 1: simple industrial espionage are long gone.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, We've moved way past that.
Speaker 1: Right now. We're dealing with sophisticated cyber attacks like meltdown inspector.
Speaker 2: Those really shook the tech world.
Speaker 1: I know. I mean vulnerabilities that target the very architecture
Speaker 1: of computer processors.
Speaker 2: It's pretty mind blowing when you think about it. The
Speaker 2: way our CPUs execute instructions can be a security risk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. Yeah, and it highlights how security
Speaker 1: isn't just about protecting physical assets or arding against traditional
Speaker 1: spies anymore.
Speaker 2: Right, It's about recognizing that everything we do online, every
Speaker 2: interaction with technology, is a potential security consideration.
Speaker 1: Setting a password, connecting to public Wi Fi. It's all crucial.
Speaker 2: Absolutely everything is connected.
Speaker 1: It's not just high tech gadgets and complex algorithms. It's
Speaker 1: our everyday digital habits too.
Speaker 2: It's about awareness and being mindful of our actions.
Speaker 1: In speaking of evolving threats, the book mentions how agencies
Speaker 1: like GCCHQ and the UK have developed some pretty powerful tools.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, they have capabilities that can redirect Internet traffic,
Speaker 2: break cryptography, even change passwords on certain websites.
Speaker 1: I know, I mean, it's for national security purposes, but
Speaker 1: it really shows how vulnerable our online world can be.
Speaker 2: It's a reminder that there are layers of complexity we
Speaker 2: might not even be aware of.
Speaker 1: It does make you wonder about the balance between security
Speaker 1: and privacy, though.
Speaker 2: That's a whole other discussion for sure.
Speaker 1: Definitely, But for now, I think this example really emphasizes
Speaker 1: just how complex the systems we're trying to secure are.
Speaker 1: The these days, we've moved way beyond standalone computers, Oh absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's massive interconnected networks, cloud services, distributed databases, each with its.
Speaker 2: Own unique set of vulnerabilities and challenges.
Speaker 1: A whole new world of complexity.
Speaker 2: And that's where security engineering steps in trying to design,
Speaker 2: build and operate these systems in a way that minimizes
Speaker 2: risks and maximizes trust.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've talked about the evolving nature of threats
Speaker 1: and the increasing complexity of the systems. We rely on
Speaker 1: what's next.
Speaker 2: Well, to really see how security engineering works in practice,
Speaker 2: let's look at some real world examples. Yeah, both the
Speaker 2: successes and the failures.
Speaker 1: Ooh love a good story. Yeah, especially when it involves
Speaker 1: high stakes and clever solutions.
Speaker 2: You got it. Our next discussion point, real world examples
Speaker 2: of security successes and failures.
Speaker 1: Bring it on.
Speaker 2: You know those old magnetic strip cards we used to
Speaker 2: use at ATMs. Oh, yeah, they were so easy to skim.
Speaker 1: I remember those. I felt like every other week there
Speaker 1: was a story about a new skimming scam.
Speaker 2: It was a huge problem. The book actually goes into
Speaker 2: the evolution of ATM security. Really it's fascinating. The move
Speaker 2: to those EMV chips, you know, those little gold chips. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was a major step forward, much stronger encryption.
Speaker 1: So they're like little fortresses protecting our money.
Speaker 2: You could say that. But the book also points out
Speaker 2: that even EMV chips aren't foolproof, right. There can still
Speaker 2: be vulnerabilities like weak random number generators.
Speaker 1: Or insecure implementation.
Speaker 2: Exactly, even if the technology itself is good, if it's
Speaker 2: not implemented correctly, there can be weaknesses.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what does that even mean in secure implementations.
Speaker 2: It means that even if the technology itself is sound,
Speaker 2: if it's not implemented correctly, there can still be weaknesses.
Speaker 2: Like the book gives this example of a Scottish sailor
Speaker 2: whose EMV card was used fraudulently because the ATM he
Speaker 2: used had a predictable random number generator. What the attackers
Speaker 2: figured out the pattern and exploited it.
Speaker 1: Wow, So it's not just about the tech chnology itself,
Speaker 1: it's about how it's used and implemented too, exactly.
Speaker 2: That's why security engineering is so important, thinking through all
Speaker 2: those potential weaknesses, not just the obvious one.
Speaker 1: Right, So you got a thing like the bad guys,
Speaker 1: you have to it's like a heist movie where they're
Speaker 1: planning to break into a vault.
Speaker 2: That's a great analogy.
Speaker 1: They have to understand every layer of security and how
Speaker 1: to get around it exactly.
Speaker 2: And that brings us to another point. The book highlights
Speaker 2: the importance of security economics.
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on economics, how does it fit into all
Speaker 1: of this?
Speaker 2: Well, the book argues that economic factors play a much
Speaker 2: bigger role in security decisions than we realize.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: For example, organizations have to balance the cost of security
Speaker 2: measures against the potential cost of a breach.
Speaker 1: Right, it's a risk reward calculation exactly.
Speaker 2: Spend too much on security and you might hurt your
Speaker 2: bottom line.
Speaker 1: But if you scamp and there's a breach, the consequences
Speaker 1: could be.
Speaker 2: Disastrous, precisely. And the book even gets into things like
Speaker 2: the market for lemons and the security chip industry.
Speaker 1: Lemons like the fruit, it's.
Speaker 2: An economics term. It basically means a market where the
Speaker 2: quality of goods is uncertain.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So in this case, it's talking about how there are
Speaker 2: low quality insecure security chips out there, right, and those
Speaker 2: can drive down the price for everyone, even the ones
Speaker 2: making high quality secure chips.
Speaker 1: So it's like a race to the bottom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of. If someone can make a cheaper chip,
Speaker 2: even if it's less secure, they might undercut the competition.
Speaker 2: That makes sense, and that's where regulations and standards.
Speaker 1: Come in, right Exactly, Things like ISO twenty seven thousand
Speaker 1: or A one and PCIDSS.
Speaker 2: They set a baseline level of security.
Speaker 1: Right, They help to level the playing field.
Speaker 2: It's like setting safety standards for building a bridge exactly.
Speaker 1: You can't just cut corners and use substandard materials, even
Speaker 1: if it saves you money.
Speaker 2: Right, safety first, And these standards also address the issue
Speaker 2: of security externalities.
Speaker 1: Yes, have you heard of that term before?
Speaker 2: Security externalities? Not really.
Speaker 1: Basically, it means that the consequences of a security failure
Speaker 1: often extend beyond the immediate victim.
Speaker 2: Okay, I see it.
Speaker 1: Like, think about a big data breach at a company.
Speaker 1: The company obviously suffers, but so do the customers whose
Speaker 1: data was compromised.
Speaker 2: And they might not even have a direct relationship with.
Speaker 1: The company exactly, So it creates this ripple effect.
Speaker 2: That impacts way more than just the initial target exactly.
Speaker 1: And the book argues that these externalities can lead to
Speaker 1: underinvestment in security because companies might not account for the
Speaker 1: broader societal costs of a breach. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: So regulations and standards are like guardrails.
Speaker 2: You could say that.
Speaker 1: They make sure everyone is at least taking some basic.
Speaker 2: Precautions to prevent those ripple effects from getting out of control.
Speaker 1: But even with regulations, breaches still happen. Right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, compliance doesn't equal perfect security. We need to constantly
Speaker 2: be thinking about new threats, new ways to mitigate risk.
Speaker 1: I'm starting to see how all of this connects, you know, technology, economics,
Speaker 1: and even human behavior all interconnected. And that leads us
Speaker 1: to our next point, which is where things get really interesting.
Speaker 1: The convergence of physical and digital security.
Speaker 2: This is a fascinating area.
Speaker 1: Convergence. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2: It means the lines are blurring between the physical world
Speaker 2: and the digital world.
Speaker 1: Okay, so like our smart homes and all those devices.
Speaker 2: Exactly, smart meters, vehicle monitoring systems, even biometric identification.
Speaker 1: Right, It's like the real world and the digital world are.
Speaker 2: Merging into this hybrid space.
Speaker 1: Is exciting but also kind of scary. Yeah, how does
Speaker 1: this impact security?
Speaker 2: Well, it means that attax can come from unexpected directions.
Speaker 2: The book gives an example of how master keying systems
Speaker 2: can be exploited.
Speaker 1: Master keying systems, you mean, like the ones that can
Speaker 1: open multiple locks in the building exactly, so someone could
Speaker 1: figure out the master.
Speaker 2: Key potentially, and with three D printing it becomes even
Speaker 2: easier to create custom keys.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a little unsettling, and.
Speaker 2: The implications for privacy are huge. The book talks about
Speaker 2: how vehicle monitoring systems in the UK have raised concerns
Speaker 2: about surveillance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does make you think about those dystopian sci
Speaker 1: fi movies where everyone's being tracked.
Speaker 2: And these concerns are only going to grow with things
Speaker 2: like autonomous vehicles and the Internet of Things.
Speaker 1: Where everything is connected and communicating exact Okay, so convergence
Speaker 1: creates a whole new set of challenges. Yeah, but what
Speaker 1: about securing communications themselves, you know, emails, texts, phone calls.
Speaker 2: That's a great question and it leads us to our
Speaker 2: next point, the challenges of securing communications.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about it, because it seems like we're
Speaker 1: always hearing about data breaches and cyber attacks these days.
Speaker 2: It's a constant concern. The book actually covers a wide
Speaker 2: range of ways those communications can be compromised, from traditional
Speaker 2: wiretapping and code breaking to things like BGP hijacking and malware.
Speaker 1: BGP hijacking I've never even heard of that.
Speaker 2: Think of it like redirecting traffic on the Internet. Someone
Speaker 2: can manipulate the system that routes traffic between.
Speaker 1: Networks so they could send my data somewhere else.
Speaker 2: Potentially or spy on your communications.
Speaker 1: That's scary.
Speaker 2: The book also talks about the limitations of anonymity tools Tour.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Tour. That's supposed to make you anonymous online, right.
Speaker 2: Right, But it's not foolproof.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: If users aren't careful, their identity and location can still
Speaker 2: be revealed.
Speaker 1: So even with tor, you need to be vigilant always.
Speaker 2: And then there's malware, which is a huge problem.
Speaker 1: I know, I hear about that all the time. What
Speaker 1: exactly is it?
Speaker 2: It's malicious software that can infect your computer, steal your data,
Speaker 2: spy on June you even take control of your system.
Speaker 1: It's like a digital virus.
Speaker 2: That's a great analogy, and it's constantly evolving. The book
Speaker 2: talks about how banking malware in particular, is a prime
Speaker 2: example of this cat and.
Speaker 1: Mask game between the good guys and the bad guys.
Speaker 2: Exactly, always trying to stay one step ahead.
Speaker 1: And it highlights another challenge attributing attacks.
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about that?
Speaker 1: Attributing attacks? Not really.
Speaker 2: It means figuring out who's behind the attack. Oh, in
Speaker 2: the physical world, if someone robs a bank, you can
Speaker 2: usually identify them, but in the digital world, it can
Speaker 2: be really hard to trace the attack back to its source.
Speaker 1: I could see how that would be a chain.
Speaker 2: It creates all sorts of issues for law enforcement and
Speaker 2: intelligence agencies.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got evolving threats, complex systems, economic considerations,
Speaker 1: the blurring of physical and digital, and the challenges of
Speaker 1: securing communications. Where do we go from here?
Speaker 2: Well, all of this leads us to a very important question,
Speaker 2: the future of security engineering.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm ready for the future. What does it hold
Speaker 1: for security in this crazy complex world? All right, we're
Speaker 1: back for the final part of our deep dive into
Speaker 1: security engineering, and I'm really curious to see what the
Speaker 1: future holds for this field.
Speaker 2: Well, the book actually paints a pretty fascinating picture of
Speaker 2: what's to come.
Speaker 1: Okay, lay it on me. Does it give us any
Speaker 1: concrete solutions to all these complex challenges.
Speaker 2: It doesn't offer a magic bullet. No, But it emphasizes adaptability.
Speaker 1: That makes sense, especially in the tech world. Things change
Speaker 1: so rapidly.
Speaker 2: Continuous learning, collaboration, that's what we need.
Speaker 1: So we can't just build a fortress and hope for
Speaker 1: the best. We have to be more proactive.
Speaker 2: Exactly. It's about constant adaptation, monitoring, responding quickly, and you know,
Speaker 2: learning from our mistakes.
Speaker 1: Learning from mistakes, that's crucial, And the book mentions learning
Speaker 1: systems what are those?
Speaker 2: Ah, Yes, that's one of the most promising avenues.
Speaker 1: The book highlights. Okay, so is that like AI learning
Speaker 1: from past breaches predicting future ones.
Speaker 2: You're on the right track, analyzing tons of data, identifying patterns,
Speaker 2: using that knowledge to prevent future impacts.
Speaker 1: Wow. So it's like AI that can help us stay
Speaker 1: ahead of the curve, constantly learning and adapting.
Speaker 2: Think of it as a super intelligent security guard. It's
Speaker 2: evolving its strategies based on the latest threats.
Speaker 1: But wouldn't those learning systems themselves be vulnerable? Couldn't hackers
Speaker 1: manipulate them?
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and it's a challenge. Researchers are
Speaker 2: working on how to build systems that are robust, resistant
Speaker 2: to manipulation.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a digital arms race.
Speaker 2: Then, you could say that, but the human elements.
Speaker 1: Still key, right, We've talked about economic factors human error exactly.
Speaker 2: The book stresses a holistic approach technology, economics, and human
Speaker 2: behavior all intertwined.
Speaker 1: So we need a more well rounded understanding of how
Speaker 1: security operates in the real.
Speaker 2: World precisely and fostering a culture of security awareness. Everyone
Speaker 2: from developers to everyday users needs to be involved.
Speaker 1: It's not just about firewalls encode anymore. It's a shift
Speaker 1: in how we think about security.
Speaker 2: Fundamentally, you got it, and that requires collaboration. Engineers, psychologists, economists, policymakers.
Speaker 2: Everyone has a role to play.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the future security needs people from all
Speaker 1: sorts of backgrounds.
Speaker 2: Absolutely interdisciplinary, with a wide range of perspectives and expertise.
Speaker 1: This has been an incredible deep dive. I feel like
Speaker 1: I have a whole new understanding of this field.
Speaker 2: It's been my pleasure. I hope our listeners have found
Speaker 2: it insightful too.
Speaker 1: To our listeners, what steps can you take to protect
Speaker 1: yourselves in this interconnected world? Your data, your privacy?
Speaker 2: It's important remember security is not just for the experts.
Speaker 2: We all have a role to play.
Speaker 1: So as we wrap up, one final thought from the book,
Speaker 1: the future of security is about building systems that are
Speaker 1: not only secure, but resilient, adaptable, and aligned with our values.
Speaker 2: Great point as you navigate the digital world, stay informed,
Speaker 2: ask questions, be an act of participant in shaping a
Speaker 2: more secure future.
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on this deep dive into
Speaker 1: security engineering. We'll see you next time on the Deep
Speaker 1: Dive