WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:03.720 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo. 2 00:00:03.799 --> 00:00:07.400 And Lorenzo in our first episode of the new year. 3 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.160 Twenty twenty five is off to a good start here, 4 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:12.720 and I would like to talk about something that I 5 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:15.919 saw in an article I was reading just this morning, 6 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:18.960 and it kind of prompted me to think about things 7 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:20.760 differently that we've talked about in the past. 8 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:22.480 The article isn't. 9 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.800 Specifically what I want to talk about, but the article 10 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:28.239 is available on the Forbes Leadership Forum. The title of 11 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:30.839 the article is called Quiet Quitters Versus Loud Leaders the 12 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:33.359 New Battle for Workplace Culture, and I'll post a link 13 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.240 to it in the podcast description, but it talks about how, 14 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:43.280 basically that when in the rise of quiet quitting, which is, 15 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:45.479 you know, people just kind of doing just enough work 16 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:49.320 to not get fired, but not really engaging and doing, 17 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:53.280 you know, their best work, the response to that from 18 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.399 a lot of leaders has been to become you know, 19 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:00.679 more engaged with the employees from a stand point of 20 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:05.000 almost micromanaging, you know, so more more interactions, more scheduled meetings, 21 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:08.359 more kind of impromptu tell me about your day kind 22 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:12.000 of stuff, and and it is you know, kind of 23 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:18.079 creating this this culture shock between the two entities, that 24 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.000 that leads to not a solving of the problem, but 25 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:23.519 in actuality, it leads to a worstening of the problem. 26 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:28.439 And I think it's important to talk about because the 27 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:30.439 the what it made me think about when I read 28 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.959 this was how, you know, we've talked about for almost 29 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.560 a few years now, how important it is for leaders 30 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.599 to engage with their people, to spend time with their people, 31 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.319 that that you can't just wait for the squeaky wheel 32 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:48.040 to get the grease and come to you. You need 33 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:50.920 to be actively engaging with your people and having interactions 34 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.359 with them. You know, we talked about the the you know, 35 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.840 even Gallup said the rise of the quality one on 36 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.000 one is like the single biggest thing that impacts whether 37 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:01.760 the leadership is affected or not. So there's so much 38 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.799 data out there and so much advice and so many 39 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:08.319 studies saying that leaders need to engage with their people. 40 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:12.199 And I think what's happening is that leaders are engaging 41 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.400 with their people, they're just not doing it in the 42 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:14.840 right way. 43 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:17.360 Yeah, well, I think that, you know, again, I think 44 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:19.240 that there's a lot of leaders that this is a 45 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:21.639 natural part of who they are and I think that again, 46 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:24.039 so one of those situations where if you are talking 47 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:26.800 about the leaders that would listen to this episode, I 48 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:29.000 think the vast majority of them would fall in the 49 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:32.080 bucket of interacting in the right ways because this is 50 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:34.800 a part of self development and growth that you would do. 51 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:37.960 I think the larger thing here, though, is that not 52 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.479 every leader listens to this podcast. Not every leader is 53 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:44.520 pouring into themselves, not every leader is thinking about what 54 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:46.680 that looks like when it comes to strategies that roll out. 55 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.240 Because to your point, this is bigger than just a 56 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.159 team or a company, an organization and industry. This is 57 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.400 a large kind of thing that's happening I think across 58 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.800 the board right now, and that is this increase in 59 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.240 and if we have a workforce that all the data 60 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:06.599 says is much more disengaged. If we have a workforce 61 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:08.400 and that all the data says there are a lot 62 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.199 of people that are kind of to your point, like quiet, 63 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.000 quitting or just doing the bare minimum. Then the response 64 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:17.879 to that is, let's create programs and strategies that increases 65 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:20.639 the amount of interactions we have with them. Number one, 66 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:22.599 to say, hey, can we step in here and maybe 67 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:25.400 increase some engagement, like, that's the positive way of looking 68 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.479 at it. What's the goal or the right that's the 69 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.639 goal for some. The other goal for some might be 70 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.680 let's get closer and catch them doing things wrong and 71 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.240 get rid of people that don't want to be here, 72 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:37.120 Like that's just let's call it what it is, right, 73 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:37.560 that's true. 74 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.240 Both both of those things can. 75 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.400 Come out of having many more interactions, and that's kind 76 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:45.759 of where I think the strategies will come out from now. 77 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:49.000 To your point, it comes down to the local leaders 78 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.360 to say, Okay, if that's what you're expecting me to 79 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.240 go do. If organizationally we're going to say this is 80 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:57.159 the thing that we're going to go do to build 81 00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:59.479 more engagement or connect with our people. 82 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:02.039 How you go about doing that? 83 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.159 When you do that, your approach to that, the conversations 84 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:09.680 that you're having. Those things matter so much more than 85 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:14.719 just being around or just kind of feeling like you're micromanaging. 86 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.560 Those things are critical if you're looking to actually influence 87 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:22.480 culture and to engage people in the right and positive ways. 88 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:26.519 I think that unfortunately what happens a lot and oftentimes 89 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:29.439 is you have these strategies, you have these things implemented, 90 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.800 they become just checkboxes. They become a task that somebody 91 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.360 has to go do, and then you go around and say, okay, 92 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:38.720 today my task is to go check in. You know, 93 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:40.519 I'm gonna go check in and hang out and talk 94 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.240 to ten or fifteen different people. And that's just going 95 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.839 in and doing nothing. Hey, I did it. Hey Chris, 96 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:48.600 how you doing? How's things going great? How's the family awesome? 97 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.279 Okay? Cool? You any questions? No, great, have a great day? 98 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:52.399 And I would go off. 99 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:56.319 It's inauthentic, it's not connected, it's not real. You're like, 100 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.000 I guess what. Lorenzo's out here doing his rounds again. 101 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:01.519 He's come, say hi to everybody, give you a high five, 102 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.560 and keep it moving. And it becomes this feeling of 103 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:07.800 that's not really what this intention is for. And this 104 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:10.399 is not the idea of how you build uh, you know, 105 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.920 great culture and great community and how you how you 106 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:14.199 increase engagement throughout a team. 107 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:14.439 Right. 108 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.800 I also don't see how that would be effective in 109 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:21.000 just spending more time around somebody so you can catch 110 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.240 them doing something wrong either, right, Like that's that that's 111 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.319 more of you know, if a leader is doing that 112 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.240 example that you gave. I think that you can assume 113 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:33.800 the positive intent at least like that they're they're they're 114 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:37.279 trying to engage more with their people. They just don't 115 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.160 know how to do it. They think that's what you're 116 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.000 supposed to do when you engage with people, and and 117 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:45.120 you're not doing it. I know, when leaders do the 118 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.360 thing that you talked about first, which is, you know, 119 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.879 engaging more with people in order to catch them doing 120 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.040 something because you think that they're not they're they're they've 121 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.759 checked out already, and you want to hasten their departure 122 00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:00.560 from the organization. And that requires far more in engagement 123 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.079 than just that, you know, Lorenzo's doing his rounds kind 124 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.079 of thing that you won't catch anybody doing anything that way. 125 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:08.839 But but you're right, it's it's both. I think when 126 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:13.160 leaders do this in that way, they don't necessarily, you know, 127 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:18.000 don the moniker of micromanager. They just don the badge 128 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.519 of inauthenticity, you know. So it's just you start thinking 129 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.879 that your leader is not authentic because they're not engaging 130 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:28.680 in a way that a normal person would interact with 131 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.800 you if they genuinely wanted to interact with you. You 132 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:34.160 get the impression that they're interacting with you because it's 133 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.680 their job to interact with you, not because they want to. 134 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.800 And you know, from a personal perspective, I can say 135 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.079 that I've had those things happened to me before, where 136 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:50.319 I've judged a leader poorly for interacting with me in 137 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.480 a way that says they're interacting with me because they 138 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.600 have to, not because they want to, when in actuality, 139 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.319 they did have to. That was their job to do it, 140 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.600 and and would we hang out if we want at work? No? 141 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.560 So why hold them to that standard of saying they 142 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:07.959 need to interact with me in a way that a 143 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.800 friend would, you know, someone who would actually want to, 144 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:14.879 you know, hang out with me and have a personal conversation, 145 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.199 know that that is their job to do it. 146 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:19.360 But that doesn't mean it needs. 147 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.399 To be disingenuous or an authentic It just needs to 148 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:27.920 be rooted in an acknowledgment of what the roles are here, 149 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.800 what the expectations are, and a clarity that says, hey, 150 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.399 I'm having this interaction with you. It is my job 151 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.879 to do it, and that's okay, But what I want 152 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:41.079 to make sure you know is that I'm interacting with 153 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.160 you because I want to see you succeed because it's 154 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.839 not that it's my job to hold you accountable. It's 155 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.839 my job to hold you accountable, and it's my job 156 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.720 to get you to succeed. And both are possible together. 157 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.240 Yeah, And I think as you were talking, I was 158 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:00.199 thinking through the leaders that have the natural tenen see 159 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.040 to have the connection in this case, right, like the 160 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:07.279 ones that that that lean into that side of things, 161 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.920 really good at connecting, really good at engaging, really good 162 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:15.439 at interacting, they're less of I think the concern here, 163 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.920 right because again like greed like that that they're spending 164 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.160 the time already, they're they're invested in that, they're prioritizing 165 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.639 that they're doing the things to make sure they feel 166 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:26.319 well and connected with their teams. And I think that 167 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.199 that gets a lot of grace in a lot of spaces, 168 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.759 including when there becomes a new strategy or something that's 169 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.159 happening where it's like, hey, increase these interactions, go connect 170 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:35.480 with people. 171 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:36.000 You're like, I. 172 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.399 Already do that, so it's easier, right, Like it's it 173 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.720 doesn't feel inauthentic because you're doing it when it wasn't required, Right, 174 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:45.879 It's that it's the other leaders. And again, when you 175 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.960 are not just a leader yourself, but when you're a 176 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:52.000 leader of leaders, when you're when you're leading people that 177 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.960 also lead people. This is where you really have to 178 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.840 think about this. You can assume that just because you 179 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.240 are great at connect you're authentic, you're doing this level 180 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:06.519 of work. You're role modeling for your leaders how they 181 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.759 should be having these conversations, how to make them authentically 182 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:12.039 like all these types of things that you're doing. This 183 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:15.000 is where you now really have to validate that that 184 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.200 what they're doing with their people is the same thing, 185 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.679 and that it's not just your you're pouring into your 186 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:23.399 leaders in the belief that they're going to go ahead 187 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:24.919 and take this and do it the right way. Right, 188 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:29.039 You're going to have to trust but verify in these situations, 189 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:31.919 and you're gonna have to spend more time kind of 190 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.080 in you know, like those skip level types of conversations 191 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:39.320 or connections where you're making sure that your leaders are 192 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:42.600 having the same impact, the same effectiveness, the same you know, 193 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.080 the same authenticity with their team. 194 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:47.879 Otherwise, this is where it really causes issues. 195 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:49.360 And I think this is where it starts to happen 196 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.679 kind of as you cascade through the hierarchy of leadership roles. 197 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.120 You know, it always gets stuck somewhere where you have 198 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.039 a leader who doesn't have the skill sometimes will to 199 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:04.679 be able to go and actually, you know, take a strategy, 200 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:08.399 implement it effectively, and do it authentically. Like that's when 201 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:10.679 you start to have the breakdown where you could be like, 202 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:12.080 I don't understand why this is happening. 203 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.000 So again, if you're a leader of leaders. 204 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:16.679 This is a space where you cannot just assume that 205 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.960 the message is landing and that the work is being done. 206 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.279 How you are role modeling the work right, right? 207 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:24.039 So you know, I used to work with a leader 208 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.759 who used to say that they could This was a 209 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.960 vice president for a company in charge of, you know, 210 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.960 several hundred retail stores, and he used to say that 211 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.120 he could go into any store and have conversations with 212 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.919 people for ten or fifteen minutes and know whether or 213 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:44.679 not the general manager of the store was a good 214 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.320 general manager. And I thought, that's that's an interesting claim, 215 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.759 and it was, but it was rooted in hundreds of 216 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:54.200 instances of this of doing it over and over and 217 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:56.440 over again and having the data play out, and so 218 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:01.120 he wasn't wrong, and I think it, you know, it's 219 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:06.360 it can be an assumption by leaders of leaders that 220 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:10.480 that role modeling the behavior is all it takes for 221 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.240 people to then effectively take the mantle and pay it 222 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.039 forward to their people. And I'm not saying that role 223 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:19.720 modeling the behavior isn't important. It's necessary if you if 224 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:21.600 you're not role modeling it yourself, no matter what you 225 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.679 tell them to do, they're not gonna do it. You know, 226 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.200 you need to role model it, but you also need 227 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.879 to train it. You also need to teach it. There 228 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:34.720 needs to be this assumption that it's not just about 229 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:39.200 showing them how it's done, because there are things that 230 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.159 great and engaged leaders do in those interactions that aren't 231 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.960 necessarily on the surface. They're not seen in a way 232 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.960 that can be taken and run with almost like you know, 233 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.600 we've talked many times on the show how you can't 234 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.200 just take a tool that was used by by one 235 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.919 place that created great culture and use that tool to 236 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.519 create great culture in another place, because it was the 237 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.639 culture that created the tool, not the tool that created 238 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:09.559 the culture. And I think it's really along the same 239 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.559 lines here. There are things that truly engaged and caring 240 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:17.759 and committed leaders do during those interactions that you can't 241 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.120 necessarily take and run with by watching it. You can't 242 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.559 be a fly on the wall watch a video interaction 243 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:24.360 of this happening and go, oh great, I know how 244 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.679 to have a great interaction. Now, there's more that happened 245 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.679 behind the scenes in the cultivation of the relationship that 246 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:37.039 that person had with you that allowed that interaction to 247 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:40.919 be good. And if you don't have that cultivated relationship, 248 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.000 then trying to implement the same type of engagement or 249 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.360 one on one strategy with that employee is going to 250 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.759 fail because it will come across as disingenuous because you 251 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:52.399 don't have the relationship that that person. 252 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:52.600 Had with you. 253 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.840 And so it's a both strategy. If you're a leader 254 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:58.600 of leaders, you need to be role modeling it, of course, 255 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:01.039 but you also need to be talking with your people 256 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.840 about why these things are effective in this way and 257 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.919 what makes them ineffective. And one of the primary causes 258 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.639 of that lack of effectiveness is a lack of authenticity 259 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:17.200 and just kind of cookie cuttering, you know, like, here's 260 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:19.600 here are the ten best interactions we've seen from leaders 261 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.440 to people. We're gonna send these videos out to all 262 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:24.159 the other leaders so that they can do with them. 263 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.519 In that way, it's like you've already failed, right, Like 264 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:32.039 the relationship that exists between the people matters, and the 265 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.399 ten best interactions are gonna have some similarities, but they're 266 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.840 gonna have some big differences between them, which means there 267 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.679 isn't one way to do it, but it requires. 268 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.720 Authenticity absolutely, and with that it markes us in this 269 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:43.799 episodes one minute Hack. 270 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:45.720 But first a few words from our sponsors. 271 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:48.120 All right, for this episode of A Minute Hack, here's 272 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:49.919 what wants you to think about. If you have several 273 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.679 members on your team and you interact with them at 274 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.720 the same interval, you know, you know, three times a 275 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:57.679 week or once a week or three times a quarter 276 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:58.399 or whatever that is. 277 00:13:58.919 --> 00:13:59.840 You could have two people on. 278 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.960 This same team where one of them views that level 279 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:07.039 of engagement as micromanaging while another views it as not 280 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:10.559 feeling supported. And it's important to know that each person 281 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.679 on your team gets to define that for themselves, and 282 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.960 so having conversations with each of them to figure out 283 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.399 what level of engagement they're looking for from you, and 284 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:22.039 to know that that doesn't mean that you can't hold 285 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.879 them accountable. It doesn't mean you can't you talk with 286 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:27.840 them more if there's a pressing matter that needs to 287 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.080 be discussed. But the number of times that a person 288 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:35.320 gets checked in with from a standpoint of, hey, how 289 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.279 can we help improve your skills, how can we help 290 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.320 accomplish your goals? How can we help support your growth? 291 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.480 Those types of conversations need to happen on an interval 292 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:48.279 that is agreed upon between you and the employee, and 293 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.679 the employee needs to know that they can change that 294 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.000 interval if that feels more comfortable to them, Like they 295 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:56.879 can think, Okay, I think this is what I want 296 00:14:57.159 --> 00:14:59.000 and then after a month or two decide, you know what, 297 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.440 that wasn't really what I I thought. It's what I wanted, but. 298 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:02.240 I'd like to change that. 299 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:04.120 And you need to be open to changing that at 300 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:06.960 any time to meet the employee where they are. And 301 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.879 again this is not for like if they do something wrong, 302 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:11.679 you got to wait till you're monthly check in to 303 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:13.639 talk to them. It just means that when you have 304 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:18.159 conversations that relate to supporting the employee in their growth 305 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:21.559 and their goals and you know, helping them engage more 306 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:23.919 in their work, or if you feel like they're disengaged. 307 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.360 Those conversations need to happen on an interval that makes 308 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:31.039 the employee feel supported and not like you're engaging inauthentically, 309 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.279 and so talk with the employees individually, figure out what 310 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.039 that looks like for each of them, and ask questions 311 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:40.200 in those interactions, like what can we do to make 312 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.679 your work feel more meaningful? Or how can I support 313 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.840 you better? But just be prepared to do the things 314 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:49.320 that they ask for, Because asking the question and having 315 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.639 no intention of following up and actually doing those things, 316 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:54.559 it would have been better to not ask them to 317 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.200 begin with than to ask in a way that leads 318 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.279 the employee to believe that those changes will happen when 319 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:01.720 you don't actually want to make those changes. 320 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:03.840 No, I think it's a great, great advice, and I 321 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.919 would add as well that I think sometimes, as I 322 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.559 mentioned this earlier, you get in situations where there's a 323 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.639 expectation from the organization that you work with that there 324 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:17.240 is a structure, there is an exit. You know, there's 325 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.720 an idea of when you should be having the frequency 326 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:23.320 of these conversations. There may be be days of the 327 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.279 week or weeks of the month, that are required for 328 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.440 you to go and have these one on ones or 329 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.679 these touch bases, or these connections or whatever they might be. 330 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.840 Like a lot of times there can be this element 331 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:34.960 of structure that's added to make sure that it's happening. 332 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.000 My advice in that space to not come across and 333 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.080 authentic is to be transparent about that, right right, Like 334 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.039 you know what I mean, Like tell them that, like 335 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.440 say say, hey, you know, Chris, I know that we 336 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.320 have had our you know, connections, you know, formally informally. 337 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.559 I really appreciate our dialogue talking about your development. 338 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:52.759 You know. 339 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.440 I think that we've got a great plan in place, 340 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:57.320 things that we've talked through. I know that, you know, 341 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.159 you can come to me whenever you need to come 342 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.159 in with any questions. I know that I can, you know, 343 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.000 swing by and talk to you if I have some 344 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.559 immediate you know, feedback or want to give you some 345 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.319 immediate recognition. I do want to be clear though, it's 346 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:10.400 a part of my role in the job. The organization 347 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:14.839 wants me to have these formal connections this time or 348 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.039 these dates or in this pattern this frequency, So like 349 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.200 I want to make sure that I'm doing that. But 350 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:21.720 what I also want to make sure is that I'm 351 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:23.680 not coming across as in authentic or that I have 352 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.279 to have these conversations because the company says that I 353 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.279 have to have them. Like what I what I What 354 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.599 I value most to me is the dialogue that we have, 355 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.000 regardless of when or how the strategy says I must 356 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.039 get them done. How you feel walking out of those 357 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.200 is the most important thing to me. So I want 358 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:41.640 to make sure that if it ever feels like it's 359 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.839 too structured or too often, you could share that with me, 360 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:47.000 but just know that we'll make sure that we have 361 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:49.200 what we need so that we are also meeting the 362 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.799 expectations of the organization. Like, that's what you got to 363 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:54.559 go do. If you feel like there's just too much 364 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:59.359 structure and and and clarity around what you have to do, 365 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.160 tell the team exactly what's going on and make sure 366 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.240 they understand so they don't get caught up in just 367 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.519 thinking that, oh wow, now the RRENS wants to talk 368 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.079 to me every other week, this is weird. What's going 369 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:11.720 on here? Like tell them that. 370 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:13.519 Right, No, I think that's spot on it. It's great 371 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:18.000 advice because, you know, let's be honest, the structure that 372 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:22.279 is put in place by organizations is rooted in a 373 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:26.119 lack of good leadership interactions to begin with. Right, So 374 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.279 you start out with you know, less rules and less structure, 375 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:32.880 and then you see where the chips fall, and then 376 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.640 you see pockets of maybe where things are going well, 377 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.960 but you also see a lot of areas where you 378 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.559 know they're really there isn't great leadership, and so you 379 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.799 have to put a structure in place to hold leaders accountable. Right, 380 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.240 the leaders have to be held accountable to doing their job. 381 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:50.799 And if you have disengagement or poor performance, and you 382 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:53.039 have leadership that is not interacting with their people on 383 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.279 an interval, you need to put that structure in place. 384 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:57.519 They have to interact on an interval, and so you 385 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.440 have to hold those people accountable. And where that where 386 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.400 that can cause problems is in places where the interactions 387 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.039 are already great and the engagement is already great. Because 388 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.119 it adds a level of structure coming from an organizational level, 389 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.880 is it can lead to a feeling of inauthenticity in 390 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.759 the interactions because you've taken something that happened organically and 391 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.440 put structure around it. But again, if you're honest and 392 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.920 upfront with this is why it's happening. Inauthenticity doesn't mean 393 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.960 that it can't be structured or planned, or that you're 394 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:31.799 doing it because somebody else told you to it because 395 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:35.880 it's your job. Inauthenticity happens when that's going on, and 396 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.119 yet you're still trying to convince the employee that you're 397 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:39.960 here because you really want to be here. You know 398 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:43.839 that that's inauthenticity. It is absolutely authentic to have an 399 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.880 interaction with an employee rooted around a company structure. You 400 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.119 have to do if you tell them, this is why 401 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.359