Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
Speaker 2: And Lorenzo in our first episode of the new year.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five is off to a good start here,
Speaker 2: and I would like to talk about something that I
Speaker 2: saw in an article I was reading just this morning,
Speaker 2: and it kind of prompted me to think about things
Speaker 2: differently that we've talked about in the past.
Speaker 1: The article isn't.
Speaker 2: Specifically what I want to talk about, but the article
Speaker 2: is available on the Forbes Leadership Forum. The title of
Speaker 2: the article is called Quiet Quitters Versus Loud Leaders the
Speaker 2: New Battle for Workplace Culture, and I'll post a link
Speaker 2: to it in the podcast description, but it talks about how,
Speaker 2: basically that when in the rise of quiet quitting, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, people just kind of doing just enough work
Speaker 2: to not get fired, but not really engaging and doing,
Speaker 2: you know, their best work, the response to that from
Speaker 2: a lot of leaders has been to become you know,
Speaker 2: more engaged with the employees from a stand point of
Speaker 2: almost micromanaging, you know, so more more interactions, more scheduled meetings,
Speaker 2: more kind of impromptu tell me about your day kind
Speaker 2: of stuff, and and it is you know, kind of
Speaker 2: creating this this culture shock between the two entities, that
Speaker 2: that leads to not a solving of the problem, but
Speaker 2: in actuality, it leads to a worstening of the problem.
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to talk about because the
Speaker 2: the what it made me think about when I read
Speaker 2: this was how, you know, we've talked about for almost
Speaker 2: a few years now, how important it is for leaders
Speaker 2: to engage with their people, to spend time with their people,
Speaker 2: that that you can't just wait for the squeaky wheel
Speaker 2: to get the grease and come to you. You need
Speaker 2: to be actively engaging with your people and having interactions
Speaker 2: with them. You know, we talked about the the you know,
Speaker 2: even Gallup said the rise of the quality one on
Speaker 2: one is like the single biggest thing that impacts whether
Speaker 2: the leadership is affected or not. So there's so much
Speaker 2: data out there and so much advice and so many
Speaker 2: studies saying that leaders need to engage with their people.
Speaker 2: And I think what's happening is that leaders are engaging
Speaker 2: with their people, they're just not doing it in the
Speaker 2: right way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think that, you know, again, I think
Speaker 3: that there's a lot of leaders that this is a
Speaker 3: natural part of who they are and I think that again,
Speaker 3: so one of those situations where if you are talking
Speaker 3: about the leaders that would listen to this episode, I
Speaker 3: think the vast majority of them would fall in the
Speaker 3: bucket of interacting in the right ways because this is
Speaker 3: a part of self development and growth that you would do.
Speaker 3: I think the larger thing here, though, is that not
Speaker 3: every leader listens to this podcast. Not every leader is
Speaker 3: pouring into themselves, not every leader is thinking about what
Speaker 3: that looks like when it comes to strategies that roll out.
Speaker 3: Because to your point, this is bigger than just a
Speaker 3: team or a company, an organization and industry. This is
Speaker 3: a large kind of thing that's happening I think across
Speaker 3: the board right now, and that is this increase in
Speaker 3: and if we have a workforce that all the data
Speaker 3: says is much more disengaged. If we have a workforce
Speaker 3: and that all the data says there are a lot
Speaker 3: of people that are kind of to your point, like quiet,
Speaker 3: quitting or just doing the bare minimum. Then the response
Speaker 3: to that is, let's create programs and strategies that increases
Speaker 3: the amount of interactions we have with them. Number one,
Speaker 3: to say, hey, can we step in here and maybe
Speaker 3: increase some engagement, like, that's the positive way of looking
Speaker 3: at it. What's the goal or the right that's the
Speaker 3: goal for some. The other goal for some might be
Speaker 3: let's get closer and catch them doing things wrong and
Speaker 3: get rid of people that don't want to be here,
Speaker 3: Like that's just let's call it what it is, right,
Speaker 3: that's true.
Speaker 1: Both both of those things can.
Speaker 3: Come out of having many more interactions, and that's kind
Speaker 3: of where I think the strategies will come out from now.
Speaker 3: To your point, it comes down to the local leaders
Speaker 3: to say, Okay, if that's what you're expecting me to
Speaker 3: go do. If organizationally we're going to say this is
Speaker 3: the thing that we're going to go do to build
Speaker 3: more engagement or connect with our people.
Speaker 1: How you go about doing that?
Speaker 3: When you do that, your approach to that, the conversations
Speaker 3: that you're having. Those things matter so much more than
Speaker 3: just being around or just kind of feeling like you're micromanaging.
Speaker 3: Those things are critical if you're looking to actually influence
Speaker 3: culture and to engage people in the right and positive ways.
Speaker 3: I think that unfortunately what happens a lot and oftentimes
Speaker 3: is you have these strategies, you have these things implemented,
Speaker 3: they become just checkboxes. They become a task that somebody
Speaker 3: has to go do, and then you go around and say, okay,
Speaker 3: today my task is to go check in. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go check in and hang out and talk
Speaker 3: to ten or fifteen different people. And that's just going
Speaker 3: in and doing nothing. Hey, I did it. Hey Chris,
Speaker 3: how you doing? How's things going great? How's the family awesome?
Speaker 1: Okay? Cool? You any questions? No, great, have a great day?
Speaker 1: And I would go off.
Speaker 3: It's inauthentic, it's not connected, it's not real. You're like,
Speaker 3: I guess what. Lorenzo's out here doing his rounds again.
Speaker 3: He's come, say hi to everybody, give you a high five,
Speaker 3: and keep it moving. And it becomes this feeling of
Speaker 3: that's not really what this intention is for. And this
Speaker 3: is not the idea of how you build uh, you know,
Speaker 3: great culture and great community and how you how you
Speaker 3: increase engagement throughout a team.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I also don't see how that would be effective in
Speaker 2: just spending more time around somebody so you can catch
Speaker 2: them doing something wrong either, right, Like that's that that's
Speaker 2: more of you know, if a leader is doing that
Speaker 2: example that you gave. I think that you can assume
Speaker 2: the positive intent at least like that they're they're they're
Speaker 2: trying to engage more with their people. They just don't
Speaker 2: know how to do it. They think that's what you're
Speaker 2: supposed to do when you engage with people, and and
Speaker 2: you're not doing it. I know, when leaders do the
Speaker 2: thing that you talked about first, which is, you know,
Speaker 2: engaging more with people in order to catch them doing
Speaker 2: something because you think that they're not they're they're they've
Speaker 2: checked out already, and you want to hasten their departure
Speaker 2: from the organization. And that requires far more in engagement
Speaker 2: than just that, you know, Lorenzo's doing his rounds kind
Speaker 2: of thing that you won't catch anybody doing anything that way.
Speaker 2: But but you're right, it's it's both. I think when
Speaker 2: leaders do this in that way, they don't necessarily, you know,
Speaker 2: don the moniker of micromanager. They just don the badge
Speaker 2: of inauthenticity, you know. So it's just you start thinking
Speaker 2: that your leader is not authentic because they're not engaging
Speaker 2: in a way that a normal person would interact with
Speaker 2: you if they genuinely wanted to interact with you. You
Speaker 2: get the impression that they're interacting with you because it's
Speaker 2: their job to interact with you, not because they want to.
Speaker 2: And you know, from a personal perspective, I can say
Speaker 2: that I've had those things happened to me before, where
Speaker 2: I've judged a leader poorly for interacting with me in
Speaker 2: a way that says they're interacting with me because they
Speaker 2: have to, not because they want to, when in actuality,
Speaker 2: they did have to. That was their job to do it,
Speaker 2: and and would we hang out if we want at work? No?
Speaker 2: So why hold them to that standard of saying they
Speaker 2: need to interact with me in a way that a
Speaker 2: friend would, you know, someone who would actually want to,
Speaker 2: you know, hang out with me and have a personal conversation,
Speaker 2: know that that is their job to do it.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean it needs.
Speaker 2: To be disingenuous or an authentic It just needs to
Speaker 2: be rooted in an acknowledgment of what the roles are here,
Speaker 2: what the expectations are, and a clarity that says, hey,
Speaker 2: I'm having this interaction with you. It is my job
Speaker 2: to do it, and that's okay, But what I want
Speaker 2: to make sure you know is that I'm interacting with
Speaker 2: you because I want to see you succeed because it's
Speaker 2: not that it's my job to hold you accountable. It's
Speaker 2: my job to hold you accountable, and it's my job
Speaker 2: to get you to succeed. And both are possible together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think as you were talking, I was
Speaker 3: thinking through the leaders that have the natural tenen see
Speaker 3: to have the connection in this case, right, like the
Speaker 3: ones that that that lean into that side of things,
Speaker 3: really good at connecting, really good at engaging, really good
Speaker 3: at interacting, they're less of I think the concern here,
Speaker 3: right because again like greed like that that they're spending
Speaker 3: the time already, they're they're invested in that, they're prioritizing
Speaker 3: that they're doing the things to make sure they feel
Speaker 3: well and connected with their teams. And I think that
Speaker 3: that gets a lot of grace in a lot of spaces,
Speaker 3: including when there becomes a new strategy or something that's
Speaker 3: happening where it's like, hey, increase these interactions, go connect
Speaker 3: with people.
Speaker 1: You're like, I.
Speaker 3: Already do that, so it's easier, right, Like it's it
Speaker 3: doesn't feel inauthentic because you're doing it when it wasn't required, Right,
Speaker 3: It's that it's the other leaders. And again, when you
Speaker 3: are not just a leader yourself, but when you're a
Speaker 3: leader of leaders, when you're when you're leading people that
Speaker 3: also lead people. This is where you really have to
Speaker 3: think about this. You can assume that just because you
Speaker 3: are great at connect you're authentic, you're doing this level
Speaker 3: of work. You're role modeling for your leaders how they
Speaker 3: should be having these conversations, how to make them authentically
Speaker 3: like all these types of things that you're doing. This
Speaker 3: is where you now really have to validate that that
Speaker 3: what they're doing with their people is the same thing,
Speaker 3: and that it's not just your you're pouring into your
Speaker 3: leaders in the belief that they're going to go ahead
Speaker 3: and take this and do it the right way. Right,
Speaker 3: You're going to have to trust but verify in these situations,
Speaker 3: and you're gonna have to spend more time kind of
Speaker 3: in you know, like those skip level types of conversations
Speaker 3: or connections where you're making sure that your leaders are
Speaker 3: having the same impact, the same effectiveness, the same you know,
Speaker 3: the same authenticity with their team.
Speaker 1: Otherwise, this is where it really causes issues.
Speaker 3: And I think this is where it starts to happen
Speaker 3: kind of as you cascade through the hierarchy of leadership roles.
Speaker 3: You know, it always gets stuck somewhere where you have
Speaker 3: a leader who doesn't have the skill sometimes will to
Speaker 3: be able to go and actually, you know, take a strategy,
Speaker 3: implement it effectively, and do it authentically. Like that's when
Speaker 3: you start to have the breakdown where you could be like,
Speaker 3: I don't understand why this is happening.
Speaker 1: So again, if you're a leader of leaders.
Speaker 3: This is a space where you cannot just assume that
Speaker 3: the message is landing and that the work is being done.
Speaker 3: How you are role modeling the work right, right?
Speaker 2: So you know, I used to work with a leader
Speaker 2: who used to say that they could This was a
Speaker 2: vice president for a company in charge of, you know,
Speaker 2: several hundred retail stores, and he used to say that
Speaker 2: he could go into any store and have conversations with
Speaker 2: people for ten or fifteen minutes and know whether or
Speaker 2: not the general manager of the store was a good
Speaker 2: general manager. And I thought, that's that's an interesting claim,
Speaker 2: and it was, but it was rooted in hundreds of
Speaker 2: instances of this of doing it over and over and
Speaker 2: over again and having the data play out, and so
Speaker 2: he wasn't wrong, and I think it, you know, it's
Speaker 2: it can be an assumption by leaders of leaders that
Speaker 2: that role modeling the behavior is all it takes for
Speaker 2: people to then effectively take the mantle and pay it
Speaker 2: forward to their people. And I'm not saying that role
Speaker 2: modeling the behavior isn't important. It's necessary if you if
Speaker 2: you're not role modeling it yourself, no matter what you
Speaker 2: tell them to do, they're not gonna do it. You know,
Speaker 2: you need to role model it, but you also need
Speaker 2: to train it. You also need to teach it. There
Speaker 2: needs to be this assumption that it's not just about
Speaker 2: showing them how it's done, because there are things that
Speaker 2: great and engaged leaders do in those interactions that aren't
Speaker 2: necessarily on the surface. They're not seen in a way
Speaker 2: that can be taken and run with almost like you know,
Speaker 2: we've talked many times on the show how you can't
Speaker 2: just take a tool that was used by by one
Speaker 2: place that created great culture and use that tool to
Speaker 2: create great culture in another place, because it was the
Speaker 2: culture that created the tool, not the tool that created
Speaker 2: the culture. And I think it's really along the same
Speaker 2: lines here. There are things that truly engaged and caring
Speaker 2: and committed leaders do during those interactions that you can't
Speaker 2: necessarily take and run with by watching it. You can't
Speaker 2: be a fly on the wall watch a video interaction
Speaker 2: of this happening and go, oh great, I know how
Speaker 2: to have a great interaction. Now, there's more that happened
Speaker 2: behind the scenes in the cultivation of the relationship that
Speaker 2: that person had with you that allowed that interaction to
Speaker 2: be good. And if you don't have that cultivated relationship,
Speaker 2: then trying to implement the same type of engagement or
Speaker 2: one on one strategy with that employee is going to
Speaker 2: fail because it will come across as disingenuous because you
Speaker 2: don't have the relationship that that person.
Speaker 1: Had with you.
Speaker 2: And so it's a both strategy. If you're a leader
Speaker 2: of leaders, you need to be role modeling it, of course,
Speaker 2: but you also need to be talking with your people
Speaker 2: about why these things are effective in this way and
Speaker 2: what makes them ineffective. And one of the primary causes
Speaker 2: of that lack of effectiveness is a lack of authenticity
Speaker 2: and just kind of cookie cuttering, you know, like, here's
Speaker 2: here are the ten best interactions we've seen from leaders
Speaker 2: to people. We're gonna send these videos out to all
Speaker 2: the other leaders so that they can do with them.
Speaker 2: In that way, it's like you've already failed, right, Like
Speaker 2: the relationship that exists between the people matters, and the
Speaker 2: ten best interactions are gonna have some similarities, but they're
Speaker 2: gonna have some big differences between them, which means there
Speaker 2: isn't one way to do it, but it requires.
Speaker 3: Authenticity absolutely, and with that it markes us in this
Speaker 3: episodes one minute Hack.
Speaker 1: But first a few words from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: All right, for this episode of A Minute Hack, here's
Speaker 2: what wants you to think about. If you have several
Speaker 2: members on your team and you interact with them at
Speaker 2: the same interval, you know, you know, three times a
Speaker 2: week or once a week or three times a quarter
Speaker 2: or whatever that is.
Speaker 1: You could have two people on.
Speaker 2: This same team where one of them views that level
Speaker 2: of engagement as micromanaging while another views it as not
Speaker 2: feeling supported. And it's important to know that each person
Speaker 2: on your team gets to define that for themselves, and
Speaker 2: so having conversations with each of them to figure out
Speaker 2: what level of engagement they're looking for from you, and
Speaker 2: to know that that doesn't mean that you can't hold
Speaker 2: them accountable. It doesn't mean you can't you talk with
Speaker 2: them more if there's a pressing matter that needs to
Speaker 2: be discussed. But the number of times that a person
Speaker 2: gets checked in with from a standpoint of, hey, how
Speaker 2: can we help improve your skills, how can we help
Speaker 2: accomplish your goals? How can we help support your growth?
Speaker 2: Those types of conversations need to happen on an interval
Speaker 2: that is agreed upon between you and the employee, and
Speaker 2: the employee needs to know that they can change that
Speaker 2: interval if that feels more comfortable to them, Like they
Speaker 2: can think, Okay, I think this is what I want
Speaker 2: and then after a month or two decide, you know what,
Speaker 2: that wasn't really what I I thought. It's what I wanted, but.
Speaker 1: I'd like to change that.
Speaker 2: And you need to be open to changing that at
Speaker 2: any time to meet the employee where they are. And
Speaker 2: again this is not for like if they do something wrong,
Speaker 2: you got to wait till you're monthly check in to
Speaker 2: talk to them. It just means that when you have
Speaker 2: conversations that relate to supporting the employee in their growth
Speaker 2: and their goals and you know, helping them engage more
Speaker 2: in their work, or if you feel like they're disengaged.
Speaker 2: Those conversations need to happen on an interval that makes
Speaker 2: the employee feel supported and not like you're engaging inauthentically,
Speaker 2: and so talk with the employees individually, figure out what
Speaker 2: that looks like for each of them, and ask questions
Speaker 2: in those interactions, like what can we do to make
Speaker 2: your work feel more meaningful? Or how can I support
Speaker 2: you better? But just be prepared to do the things
Speaker 2: that they ask for, Because asking the question and having
Speaker 2: no intention of following up and actually doing those things,
Speaker 2: it would have been better to not ask them to
Speaker 2: begin with than to ask in a way that leads
Speaker 2: the employee to believe that those changes will happen when
Speaker 2: you don't actually want to make those changes.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's a great, great advice, and I
Speaker 3: would add as well that I think sometimes, as I
Speaker 3: mentioned this earlier, you get in situations where there's a
Speaker 3: expectation from the organization that you work with that there
Speaker 3: is a structure, there is an exit. You know, there's
Speaker 3: an idea of when you should be having the frequency
Speaker 3: of these conversations. There may be be days of the
Speaker 3: week or weeks of the month, that are required for
Speaker 3: you to go and have these one on ones or
Speaker 3: these touch bases, or these connections or whatever they might be.
Speaker 3: Like a lot of times there can be this element
Speaker 3: of structure that's added to make sure that it's happening.
Speaker 3: My advice in that space to not come across and
Speaker 3: authentic is to be transparent about that, right right, Like
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like tell them that, like
Speaker 3: say say, hey, you know, Chris, I know that we
Speaker 3: have had our you know, connections, you know, formally informally.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate our dialogue talking about your development.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I think that we've got a great plan in place,
Speaker 3: things that we've talked through. I know that, you know,
Speaker 3: you can come to me whenever you need to come
Speaker 3: in with any questions. I know that I can, you know,
Speaker 3: swing by and talk to you if I have some
Speaker 3: immediate you know, feedback or want to give you some
Speaker 3: immediate recognition. I do want to be clear though, it's
Speaker 3: a part of my role in the job. The organization
Speaker 3: wants me to have these formal connections this time or
Speaker 3: these dates or in this pattern this frequency, So like
Speaker 3: I want to make sure that I'm doing that. But
Speaker 3: what I also want to make sure is that I'm
Speaker 3: not coming across as in authentic or that I have
Speaker 3: to have these conversations because the company says that I
Speaker 3: have to have them. Like what I what I What
Speaker 3: I value most to me is the dialogue that we have,
Speaker 3: regardless of when or how the strategy says I must
Speaker 3: get them done. How you feel walking out of those
Speaker 3: is the most important thing to me. So I want
Speaker 3: to make sure that if it ever feels like it's
Speaker 3: too structured or too often, you could share that with me,
Speaker 3: but just know that we'll make sure that we have
Speaker 3: what we need so that we are also meeting the
Speaker 3: expectations of the organization. Like, that's what you got to
Speaker 3: go do. If you feel like there's just too much
Speaker 3: structure and and and clarity around what you have to do,
Speaker 3: tell the team exactly what's going on and make sure
Speaker 3: they understand so they don't get caught up in just
Speaker 3: thinking that, oh wow, now the RRENS wants to talk
Speaker 3: to me every other week, this is weird. What's going
Speaker 3: on here? Like tell them that.
Speaker 2: Right, No, I think that's spot on it. It's great
Speaker 2: advice because, you know, let's be honest, the structure that
Speaker 2: is put in place by organizations is rooted in a
Speaker 2: lack of good leadership interactions to begin with. Right, So
Speaker 2: you start out with you know, less rules and less structure,
Speaker 2: and then you see where the chips fall, and then
Speaker 2: you see pockets of maybe where things are going well,
Speaker 2: but you also see a lot of areas where you
Speaker 2: know they're really there isn't great leadership, and so you
Speaker 2: have to put a structure in place to hold leaders accountable. Right,
Speaker 2: the leaders have to be held accountable to doing their job.
Speaker 2: And if you have disengagement or poor performance, and you
Speaker 2: have leadership that is not interacting with their people on
Speaker 2: an interval, you need to put that structure in place.
Speaker 2: They have to interact on an interval, and so you
Speaker 2: have to hold those people accountable. And where that where
Speaker 2: that can cause problems is in places where the interactions
Speaker 2: are already great and the engagement is already great. Because
Speaker 2: it adds a level of structure coming from an organizational level,
Speaker 2: is it can lead to a feeling of inauthenticity in
Speaker 2: the interactions because you've taken something that happened organically and
Speaker 2: put structure around it. But again, if you're honest and
Speaker 2: upfront with this is why it's happening. Inauthenticity doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it can't be structured or planned, or that you're
Speaker 2: doing it because somebody else told you to it because
Speaker 2: it's your job. Inauthenticity happens when that's going on, and
Speaker 2: yet you're still trying to convince the employee that you're
Speaker 2: here because you really want to be here. You know
Speaker 2: that that's inauthenticity. It is absolutely authentic to have an
Speaker 2: interaction with an employee rooted around a company structure. You
Speaker 2: have to do if you tell them, this is why
Speaker 2: we are doing this, But it doesn't mean that you're
Speaker 2: that the effectiveness of the conversation or that how you
Speaker 2: feel about us and our relationship and the job isn't important.
Speaker 2: Just means that they have it has to happen on
Speaker 2: this kind of interval, And so yeah, I guess I
Speaker 2: think it's great advice. Be upfront with it, be transparent,
Speaker 2: tell them why you're here, but but don't let that
Speaker 2: change the way that you interact with them and the
Speaker 2: authenticity of what what grew the relationship to a positive
Speaker 2: place to begin.
Speaker 3: With, absolutely and with that it brings us at the
Speaker 3: end of this episode, this is Acting Leadership.
Speaker 1: I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you
Speaker 1: all next time.