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<v Speaker 1>What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In

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<v Speaker 1>this episode, we're spinning back up to Moscow and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to dive right back into the transcripts from the

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<v Speaker 1>IgG hearing. The court. You can call your next witness,

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Taylor, Matthew Gamet the clerk. Do you solemnly swear

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<v Speaker 1>or affirm that the testimony you're about to give now

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<v Speaker 1>before the court will be the truth, the whole truth,

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<v Speaker 1>and nothing but the truth. Gamet? I do, Matthew Gamet,

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<v Speaker 1>having been duly sworn testified as follows direct examination, and

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<v Speaker 1>once again it's Ann Taylor asking the questions which will

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<v Speaker 1>be questioned, and the answer will be given by Matthew Gamet,

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<v Speaker 1>and that'll be when I say answer. Question, good morning, answer,

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<v Speaker 1>good morning. Question. Will you please state your name? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>my name is Matthew Gamet. Question how are you employed? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm employed with the Idaho State Police Forensic Services and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a laboratory system director. Question what what does that

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<v Speaker 1>mean to be the laboratory system director? Answer? I oversee

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<v Speaker 1>operations of the laboratory system. I oversee anything from purchasing, procurement, contracts,

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<v Speaker 1>human resources type issues, and hiring terminations. I also oversee

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<v Speaker 1>things like just how the laboratory operates day to day.

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<v Speaker 1>Question how long have you held that role? Answer? I've

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<v Speaker 1>been with the Idaho State Police Forensic Service for just

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<v Speaker 1>about sixteen years, and I believe I've held this current

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<v Speaker 1>role for about ten. Question do you have prior experience

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<v Speaker 1>in a similar line of work? Answer? I do. Prior

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<v Speaker 1>to working for Idaho State Police, I work for Washington

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<v Speaker 1>State Patrol as a DNA analysis and also a crime

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<v Speaker 1>scene responder. Question how are you educated? Answer? I have

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<v Speaker 1>a bachelor's degree from Bring Them Young University. I also

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<v Speaker 1>have a master's degree from Bring Them Young University, and

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<v Speaker 1>then I have a continuing certificate from both West Virginia

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<v Speaker 1>University and UC Davis. Question are you involved in the

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<v Speaker 1>collaborative group NTIC? Answer? I am? Question what is that group? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>So that's the National Technology Implementation Collaborative. So currently my

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<v Speaker 1>role there is to share the group. Question as it

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<v Speaker 1>relates to forensic investigative genetic genealogy. What's the group's role

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<v Speaker 1>with that field? Answer? So currently we're working on we

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<v Speaker 1>have several different subcommittees in our Forensic Investigative Genetic Genealogy Group.

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<v Speaker 1>What that group is focused on, is anything from policies, procedures, contracts,

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<v Speaker 1>things of that nature, looking at the implementation of that

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<v Speaker 1>technology into public forensic science laboratories. Question why is that important? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Why is the work of the group important? Question? Let

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<v Speaker 1>me ask the question better, why is it important to

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<v Speaker 1>have policies and procedures? Answer? In any public forensic science laboratory,

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<v Speaker 1>we want to make sure we implement technology well, that

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<v Speaker 1>we implement it in a robust way, that it can

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<v Speaker 1>be relied upon for things such as courts, and so

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<v Speaker 1>we always want to make sure that when we're implementing

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<v Speaker 1>a technology that we take a look at how that

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<v Speaker 1>technology is being used and that we apply it well

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<v Speaker 1>in public laboratory space. Question is that important for public trust? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I believe so. Yes. Question are there other organizations that

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<v Speaker 1>you're involved in in the course of your work? Answer yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm involved with several other forensic science organizations. Question how

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<v Speaker 1>about ASCLD? Answer yes? Question what is that one? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>ASCLD the American Society of Crime Lab Directors. Question what's

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<v Speaker 1>the purpose of that group? Answer? So that's the group

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<v Speaker 1>of laboratory directors. It could be laboratory managers, quality managers,

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<v Speaker 1>laboratory leaders in essence are members of that organization. Question

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<v Speaker 1>what is your role with that group? Answer? Currently I am.

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<v Speaker 1>I report to the Board of Directors as the CFSO,

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<v Speaker 1>the Consortium of Forensic Science Organizations liaison for the organization

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<v Speaker 1>for as CLD. Question did you have a role in

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<v Speaker 1>deciding that Authrum Labs should contract with Idaho State Police

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<v Speaker 1>Forensic Labs. Answer I did have a role, yes. Question

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<v Speaker 1>what was your role? Answer? My role would have been

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<v Speaker 1>as Laboratory Systems director making a decision on contracts that

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<v Speaker 1>would be awarded. Question did you decide that Authorum should

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<v Speaker 1>receive the contract? Answer? I did not. Question did you

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<v Speaker 1>work on the contract with Authorum? Answer? I need to

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<v Speaker 1>answer that question in a little bit different way than

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<v Speaker 1>you asked it, if you'll give me some leeway. Question sure, Answer,

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<v Speaker 1>I did not work specifically on the contract with Authrum. However,

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<v Speaker 1>I worked on the specifications that led to a contract

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<v Speaker 1>being awarded to Authorm. Question the specifications you worked on?

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<v Speaker 1>Did those end up becoming part of the contract with Authorum? Answer? Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Question what were those specifications? Answer? So, there were a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of specifications within the scope of work that we

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<v Speaker 1>developed to send out for the general bid process. As

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<v Speaker 1>we bid as a state agency. As we bid for

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<v Speaker 1>a contract, we send out specifications that anyone has to

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<v Speaker 1>comply with. As they give us their documents and responses

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<v Speaker 1>back on those things, then we have the ability to

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<v Speaker 1>look at and make sure that they are compliant with

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<v Speaker 1>those specifications that we sent out. Question what were the

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<v Speaker 1>specifications for authroom? Answer? There were a lot of specifications

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<v Speaker 1>sent out on the request for proposals intend to bid.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a lot of different specifications that were sent out. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>I have recollection of some of them. I don't have

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<v Speaker 1>a full memory of all of them. Question will you

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<v Speaker 1>share with us what you do recall? Answer? So things

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<v Speaker 1>in that contract would specify that they use the interim policy.

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<v Speaker 1>We also would put things in there about them following

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<v Speaker 1>environmental protection type provisions the federal government requires us to abide. Buy.

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<v Speaker 1>It would also have other things like reporting requirements back

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<v Speaker 1>to US building procedures. A lot of different conditions we

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<v Speaker 1>put in that to specify how they are going to

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<v Speaker 1>work with us. Question when you say interim policy, are

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<v Speaker 1>you referring to the Department of Justice interim policy? Answer? Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Question did you care if there were an accredited lab.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer so, at this time, as we're looking for a

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<v Speaker 1>forensic investigative, genetic genealogy vendor or a company to provide

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<v Speaker 1>these types of services for us, we were not aware

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<v Speaker 1>of any companies at that time that were accredited. Question

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<v Speaker 1>Since that time, though, are you aware that companies do

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<v Speaker 1>become accredited? Answer? Absolutely, Currently, there are definitely companies that

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<v Speaker 1>are accredited in these services. At the time that this

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<v Speaker 1>contract was bid, there were none to my knowledge. Question

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<v Speaker 1>did you look at the procedures and protocols of AUTHRM

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<v Speaker 1>before you decided? Yo? Look, just interject real quick. AUTHORAM

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<v Speaker 1>is like the standard when it comes to DNA. This

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<v Speaker 1>right here should show you and tell you everything you

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<v Speaker 1>need to know about Brian Colberger's defense. Answer, so, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't recall specifically myself reviewing those criteria. I know that

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<v Speaker 1>there were a manual protocols that were provided back to

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<v Speaker 1>us as part of the bid. Generally, I would provide

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<v Speaker 1>those to others within our laboratory that were more qualified

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<v Speaker 1>than I was looking at the specific technology, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not qualified in fig analysis. Question do you recall if

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<v Speaker 1>their instruments were validated? Answer? I do not recall. Question

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<v Speaker 1>would that be important? To have their instruments validated. Answer.

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<v Speaker 1>Validation is up to each laboratory and how they accomplish that.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't speak to the working practices of authroom laboratories.

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<v Speaker 1>Question does Idaho State Police Forensic Lab validate their equipment? Answer? Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>we do. Question is that important to you? Answer to

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<v Speaker 1>us as an accredited laboratory, Yes, that is an important part.

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<v Speaker 1>Question How about retention of data or the ability to

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<v Speaker 1>go back and rebuild the work or look at the

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<v Speaker 1>work that was done. Answer, so we retain in our cases,

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<v Speaker 1>we retain our electronic data. We retain any other notes

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<v Speaker 1>and things that we make as part of our case records,

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<v Speaker 1>part of our case file. We provide those to the

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<v Speaker 1>investigators and to the court as normal business practice. Question

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<v Speaker 1>did authorm do that? Answer in this case, I believe

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<v Speaker 1>they gave us a report or what was identified as

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<v Speaker 1>a preliminary report. The contract specifies that they would keep

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<v Speaker 1>any data or other things associated with that for our purposes.

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<v Speaker 1>We were most concerned that the data or anything else

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<v Speaker 1>not be released to any other parties. So our concern

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<v Speaker 1>was more about data security, data privacy, and so in

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<v Speaker 1>this case, I don't know if they have other data

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<v Speaker 1>or other records that they have kept that they have retained.

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<v Speaker 1>We had asked them, as part of the termination in

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<v Speaker 1>this case of our work, that they would preserve those

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<v Speaker 1>things or they would communicate with both Prosecutor's Office and

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<v Speaker 1>with Moscow Police Department if any of that information was

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<v Speaker 1>to be disposed or whatnot? Question, Okay, keep it or

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<v Speaker 1>tell somebody before you get rid of it. Am I

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<v Speaker 1>understanding that answer? Our specification was that it stopped our

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<v Speaker 1>process with them, that we were no longer in a

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<v Speaker 1>contractual obligation with them on this case. Essentially, we were

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<v Speaker 1>transferring ownership of anything on this case between them and

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<v Speaker 1>Moscow Police Department and the Prosecutor's Office. Question the report

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<v Speaker 1>that you ended up receiving from them, are you aware

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<v Speaker 1>that that report doesn't provide details of how they did

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<v Speaker 1>their work? Answer? I have seen the report. Yes, I

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<v Speaker 1>seen what was in the report. Question would you agree

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<v Speaker 1>that what's in the report is far different from what

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<v Speaker 1>the Idaho State Police Forensic Lab produces by way of

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<v Speaker 1>notes and photographs in connection with its work. Answer? We

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<v Speaker 1>were not provided with analytical notes, We were not provided

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<v Speaker 1>with data. To my knowledge, we were provided with what

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<v Speaker 1>was identified to me as a preliminary report, which contained

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<v Speaker 1>some of their genealogical work on the case and other

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<v Speaker 1>things such as potential nationalities. Question is that different than

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<v Speaker 1>what you produce when you produce a report at your lab.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer It's hard for me to answer that question because

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<v Speaker 1>it's a different report, it's a different type of analysis,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I can't make a qualification there. I can

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<v Speaker 1>tell you in our DNA reports, we release the report,

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<v Speaker 1>we release the analyst notes. As a general practice, we

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<v Speaker 1>have the electronic data and other things available for disclosure,

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<v Speaker 1>but that's our general practice. I can't speak to the

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<v Speaker 1>practice or process as authroom labs and what they disclose,

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<v Speaker 1>nor can I speak to what is normal for release

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<v Speaker 1>in a big case. Question are you familiar with how

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<v Speaker 1>you come up with a SNP with that process where

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<v Speaker 1>you get from a DNA sample to SNP? Answer in general, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm not qualified in fig analysis. Question Okay, I

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<v Speaker 1>won't go too far with that. Are you familiar with

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<v Speaker 1>how you get from a DNA sample to an STR

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<v Speaker 1>sample for the lab's purposes? Answer yes. Question are there

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<v Speaker 1>similarities between the two process from getting places or pieces

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<v Speaker 1>of DNA to an end result profile that you can

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<v Speaker 1>use answer similarities in process as far as extraction and

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<v Speaker 1>quantitation of DNA, but as far as instrumentation, used methods

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<v Speaker 1>and those kinds of things very different process. Question. So

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<v Speaker 1>some of the documents that Idaho State Police Forensic Lab

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<v Speaker 1>produce that show us those results, those would be similar

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<v Speaker 1>to what you would expect to see with an SNP answer.

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<v Speaker 1>I would assume again, I'm not qualified in fig analysis,

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<v Speaker 1>so I can't speak to what documents they may or

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<v Speaker 1>may not produce. Question. Let's move from there. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for that, and let's talk about authoram being involved in

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<v Speaker 1>the case. That winds up being why we're here today.

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<v Speaker 1>What communication did you have with AUTHRUM on the early

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<v Speaker 1>end of that process? Answer? So, to my recollection, our

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<v Speaker 1>early communication on this case was providing them with DNA

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<v Speaker 1>that they would be able to help develop, hopefully and

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<v Speaker 1>investigative lead for us on the case after that sample,

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<v Speaker 1>to my knowledge, had been that we had followed our

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<v Speaker 1>process through and that we had put a sample into CODIS,

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<v Speaker 1>that we had not received any hits off of COTIS,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we would proceed with the next step of testing.

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<v Speaker 1>We did have a contractual relationship with them since early

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<v Speaker 1>in I believe twenty twenty one, and so we did

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<v Speaker 1>have a contract with them in place. Question was this

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<v Speaker 1>the first case that Authorum work pursuant to that contract?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer no, I don't believe so. Question how did they

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<v Speaker 1>get the DNA? Answer the DNA sample itself. That DNA

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<v Speaker 1>sample was delivered by Moscow Police Department in person to

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<v Speaker 1>them at Authorum Labs. Question did you have any role

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<v Speaker 1>in that part? Answer? I did? Question what did you do?

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<v Speaker 1>I accompanied the officer from Boise down to Houston and

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<v Speaker 1>down to the Authoram laboratory. I didn't have possession of

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<v Speaker 1>the sample, but I was with the investigator that did.

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<v Speaker 1>Question after that sample was delivered, did you have communication

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<v Speaker 1>with Authorm further answer yes, Question what were those Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>So I had communications to my memory with them about

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<v Speaker 1>what type of analysis we were asking them to do,

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<v Speaker 1>Also what type of searching. I remember they asked specifically

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<v Speaker 1>for consent to do certain types of searching, we have

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<v Speaker 1>to authorize things through memos and whatnot of them doing

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<v Speaker 1>certain searching. Specifically, I believe it was family tree DNA

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<v Speaker 1>that they needed an authorization for. I remember having significant

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<v Speaker 1>discussions with them about why str testing and if or

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<v Speaker 1>how that could be accomplished. All right, folks, we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>wrap up this episode here and in the next episode

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna pick up where we left off, and that

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<v Speaker 1>is question, why did you want authorm to do? Why

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<v Speaker 1>str testing? If you like to contact me, you can

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<v Speaker 1>do that at Bobby Kopuchi at ProtonMail dot com. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Bobby c apu Cci at ProtonMail dot com, or if

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<v Speaker 1>you prefer, you can find me over on x at

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<v Speaker 1>Bobby Underscore c ap Ucci. All of the links that

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<v Speaker 1>go with this episode can be found in the description box.