WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:05.719 You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast. Guests lit London 2 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:09.800 streets lie shrouded in fog. Eighteen year old Jane alsops 3 00:00:09.800 --> 00:00:12.839 at her father's house when a loud knocking startles her. 4 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:16.160 She goes to the door, and in the darkness, a 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:19.960 cloaked man says urgently, we've called spring Hill Jack here 6 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:23.039 in the lane. Believing he's a policeman, Jane rushes to 7 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:25.920 bring him a candle, but when she hands it to him, 8 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.199 she shocked to see him spit blue fire from his 9 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:33.159 mouth before he begins to claw at her with metallic fingers. 10 00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.520 She screams and struggles to escape as he tears at 11 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.920 her clothing, and finally she's rescued by her sister, who 12 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.240 pulls her back into the house. The cloak strangers seem 13 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.280 to bound off across the field. For this was no policeman. 14 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:52.119 This was spring Hill Jack himself. It's actually quite unlike 15 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:53.600 anything we've ever seen before. 16 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:59.000 A giant, hairy creature in part Ape and Party Match 17 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:03.399 in Luckness, a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake 18 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:04.599 in the Highlands of Scotland. 19 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:32.159 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monster. Welcome 20 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.000 to Monster talk the Science Show about Monsters. I'm Blake 21 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.640 Smith and in this episode, doctor Karen stoles Know and 22 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.200 I will interview Mike Dash about the mysterious figure known 23 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.840 as spring Hill Jack. This is an enduring legend which 24 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.439 has been of interest to paranormal investigators and folklorists, as 25 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:52.519 well as UFO enthusiasts and skeptics. Mike's research is fantastic 26 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.760 and while he is compiling it into a book someday, 27 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.680 be sure to check the show notes for links to 28 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.760 his website. He loves solving mysteries and it shows in 29 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:05.000 his work. More Instrutle, do you want to tell listeners 30 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:08.639 about what your latest projects are like, about what you're 31 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:10.199 working on. What's been going on with you? 32 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:13.639 Oh? Well, I don't know. It feels like it's a 33 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.000 bit premature at this stage. 34 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.560 Still, well, you can talk about Swift articles. 35 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:21.039 Oh okay, I don't know if you checked out the 36 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.879 latest article that I did for Swift. It was a 37 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:29.759 mini investigation into a place called Silver Cliff Cemetery. Can 38 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.319 you hear me? I can, okay, because it's just to 39 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:34.280 me creepy. 40 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:35.719 Because it sounds like you're really close, but I know 41 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:43.680 you're really far away ah, silly mood apologize. 42 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:47.000 Well, no, that that's good, that's apt for the show. 43 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:50.560 But I'll start again. I just did an investigation or 44 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:55.599 a mini investigation for SWIFT for the James Randy Educational Foundation, 45 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.479 and it was into a place called Silver Cliff Cemetery, 46 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.800 and it's one of the most haunted or the most 47 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.879 haunted cemetery in America, or one of the most haunted 48 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.879 cemeteries in America. Because they're all the most haunted. 49 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:12.080 Is it egalitarian to believe that they're all equally haunted? 50 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.439 I think I think it's only the fair thing to say, 51 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:20.599 the only fair thing to say. But this place, it's 52 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.639 a beautiful little cemetery out in the middle of nowhere, 53 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:27.479 and they've only got an occupancy rate of about forty percent, 54 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:32.240 so very just scattered tombstones. But this place has been 55 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:38.280 famous for decades now for dancing blue lights. And actually 56 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.240 the source of all of the claims, or the main source, 57 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.400 contemporary source, seems to be an article that appeared in 58 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.000 National Geographic Magazine back in nineteen sixty nine, and a 59 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:52.319 lot of people or what you'll find online if you 60 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:57.280 go and google Silver Cliff Cemetery, lots of entries about 61 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.520 this original article. People claim that the article was an 62 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.680 investigation or some kind of feature, but really it's just 63 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:11.039 an afterthought. It's almost a PostScript. And the author of 64 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:14.039 the article, I can't remember his name, Edward Linehm. I 65 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.920 think it is just in the last paragraph or two 66 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.879 of the article, and it's a travel journal piece about 67 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:24.120 Colorado and the Rockies. And he just mentions these strange 68 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.920 blue lights that appear in this cemetery, and he goes 69 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.079 and checks them out, and anyway, he describes them as 70 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.160 being this dim glow. Yet over the course of decades 71 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.639 it's become the lights have become very different. Instead, they 72 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:43.680 are bright lights there like a lantern light, round lights 73 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.720 the size of a silver dollar. Sometimes there are one 74 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:51.000 or two lights, other times there just spread across the cemetery. 75 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:54.839 The original lights were blue, and the lights nowadays can 76 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.079 be red or green or pink, any color that you like. 77 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:03.519 And so the claims have increased over the years, but 78 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:05.759 they really have taken on a life of their own. 79 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:10.319 And so I went and checked out the cemetery. It 80 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.519 was actually in the course of going and visiting a 81 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:18.680 fundamentalist Mormon compound. But that's another story. Altogether, And so 82 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.600 I checked out the cemetery and I didn't actually see 83 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:26.120 those particular lights myself, but came up with a couple 84 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:28.839 of possible explanations for the lights most people. There was 85 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.160 an investigation done a short article by Skeptical Inquiry magazine 86 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:37.480 going back about twenty years ago, and the authors claimed 87 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:41.720 that the lights are reflections from the town from passing traffic, 88 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.000 and that's a possibility. I think that there are lots 89 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.800 of explanations, not just one explanation. 90 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.480 Yeah, if you go to a cemetery at night and 91 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:53.240 the claim is there are lights, then any light would 92 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:54.160 seem to be a hit. 93 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.920 Right, that's right, And there are lots of natural and 94 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.839 human made sources for lights. There are stars, there's the moon, 95 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:03.519 but people claim that the best time to see these 96 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.639 lights is on a very dark night when there isn't 97 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:10.319 any when it's overcast and there's no moon, and so 98 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.480 there are just outside of that. I thought one of 99 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:16.439 the main things that came to mind were phosphenes, the 100 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.839 possibility that someone could be sitting out in this dark 101 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:23.439 cemetery with no light for hours trying to see something, 102 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.319 and you know, when you rub your eyes or when 103 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:29.360 you sneeze and you see stars, those little lights that 104 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.319 appear in your eyes when there isn't actually a light source. 105 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.199 I thought that that could be one potential source for 106 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.360 these lights in the cemetery, or another could be this 107 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:43.560 new receptor that's been found that only sees the color blue, 108 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.319 only picks up that color. So I think that could 109 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.519 account for maybe those original sightings of this dim blue glow. 110 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:51.399 But if people want to go and check out the 111 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.920 article on Swift anyway, and there's more information there, and 112 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.680 go and google it yourself to and see some of 113 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:58.680 the other claims that are. 114 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:01.399 Out there, put a link to that in the show notes. 115 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.839 Sounds good, thank you. So yeah, that was a fun 116 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:06.920 little diversion looking into that. 117 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.160 But I think one of the first collaborative skeptical investigations 118 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:14.639 every day was with Kylie Surgis for the Pinjara Cemetery. 119 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:18.240 That's right, that was in Perth somewhere. 120 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.199 Yeah, well wherever Pinjari. That was more her, you know, 121 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:23.600 she drove a long way to go out there and 122 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:26.279 help me, you know, test the hypothesis. It turned out 123 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:28.120 to be correct, and in that case, it was a 124 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:34.639 passing car had illuminated a stationary tombstone, and on video 125 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:37.240 it looked like something just came to life and flew 126 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:39.079 across the screen. But I was able to stabilize it 127 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.439 and show that No, what was actually happening was the 128 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:45.279 illumination was passing over the tombstone, but because the camera 129 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:48.759 was moving, it created this weird illusion. So kind of 130 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:49.720 a funn Yeah. 131 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:51.319 Once again, I think that's accounting for a lot of 132 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:55.160 the claims in Silver Cliff Cemetery. Though these very shiny marble. 133 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:56.879 Yes, they're very reflective. 134 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:59.959 Yeah, and people think, oh, the town's too far away. 135 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:01.959 It's really only about half a mile away. And there 136 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:04.759 are two towns there right next to each other, so 137 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.079 there are a lot of light sources. 138 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:10.519 Well, it's always it's always bugged me that people would 139 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:15.519 expect cemeteries and graveyards to be haunted, like the people 140 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.279 who die have no ties to those places. 141 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.000 Well, yeah, I think there are two theories. I think 142 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:23.839 there's one theory that, of course cemeteries must be haunted 143 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:26.279 because there are so many people buried there. And then 144 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.600 there's another claim that people when they do come back 145 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.000 and they do haunt, they will haunt the places that 146 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.320 they visited during their lifetime. They're not going to be 147 00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:38.519 in a place where they're just the body is buried. 148 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:42.120 Right, Like, I can imagine really easily some sort of 149 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:47.039 hypothesis that you're tethered to your physical body even after 150 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.399 you die, but you know, it seems like cremation would 151 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.799 cure that, or you know, and eventually your body rides away. 152 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:58.519 I don't know. I don't think there's much plausibility to that. 153 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.080 There are both theories there, and I think if you believe, 154 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.080 then you're going to come up with any any interesting 155 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:11.320 theory to explain any any qualms you've got. 156 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:14.799 Yeah, And the thing is, though you're probably the same way. 157 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:18.440 But I love cemeteries and and people I think forget 158 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.000 that cemeteries are generally built for the living. You know, 159 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.200 they're for you to go and reminisce and think about 160 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:27.759 the people who've died and spend time. 161 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:32.240 That's right. But the memorial parks, so yeah, people in 162 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:36.840 previous times would go for strolls through cemeteries and have lunch, 163 00:09:36.919 --> 00:09:39.440 and they were social places they were. 164 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:43.159 And what really bugs me is modern cemeteries. They're so lazy. 165 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:46.080 They build like the flat tombstone so they can mow easier, 166 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:49.080 and it's like, really, that's what's so great about that. 167 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:51.399 It's terrible, Like we want the fancy or nature. 168 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:53.960 I do. I love. I love the ones with statues 169 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.759 and little mausoleums. 170 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:00.960 And oh me too. The ones in Lanion's are fantastic. 171 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:03.720 Oh yeah, those are really cool. I just there's some 172 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.720 really nice ones in Atlanta and Savannah. Yeah, gorgeous ones. 173 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:12.159 So yeah, I went to the Bonaventure. Yeah cemetery that's 174 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.879 in Savannah, isn't it. It is the famous one. But 175 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.919 what's that book in the Garden of Good and Evil? 176 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:22.279 Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil? 177 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.279 Right with the little crying girl. They've taken her out 178 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.440 of the cemetery because people get messing with their statue. 179 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:29.919 Yeah, that's on display. I think at a local museum instead. 180 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:33.200 But I'd love to get to Resurrection Cemetery in Chicago 181 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.320 sometime and check out the stories about Resurrection Mary. 182 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:38.759 Yeah. Well, and don't forget a lot of the voters 183 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:41.159 come out of there at election time, so that's a great, 184 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:43.080 great time to see ghosts. 185 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:44.000 There you go. 186 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:53.240 Today, we're talking with Mike dash who is a paranorl investigator, historian, author, 187 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:57.399 and former editor of fortyen Times. He's written numerous articles 188 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:01.159 in several books, most recently The First Family, Terror, Extortion, 189 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.720 and the Birth of the American Mafia. He also writes 190 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.879 the Past and Perfect blog for Smithsonian dot com. Welcome Mike, 191 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:12.919 Thank you, Hey Mike. I just just kind of just 192 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.799 not related to monsters at all, but really enjoyed your 193 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:20.360 article about the family in Siberia. That was such a 194 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:21.200 cool article. 195 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.000 Yeah, it's been remarkably successful. I've never quite experienced anything 196 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.240 like it. Actually, it's had something like two million page views. 197 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:33.120 Quite wow generated. Yeah, I mean it's interesting, isn't it 198 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.039 what gels would be. I've been writing stories I've tried 199 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:38.320 to get two million page revies on for years, and 200 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.080 this is the one that's kind of caught far. It's 201 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:42.639 interesting to see what it is that makes people sort 202 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:44.840 of trigger those sorts of responses. 203 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.480 Actually, yeah, and I have no idea because I've read 204 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.240 a lot of your articles and this was of similar quality, 205 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:55.799 which was great, But I know, wow, that's fantastic. Congrats. 206 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:57.759 Yeah, I mean I think there's obviously an element of 207 00:11:57.799 --> 00:11:59.639 you know, what would I do in those situations? How 208 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.320 would I hope which if you know we'll touch on this, 209 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:03.840 not one noteut, I mean there's an element of this 210 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:06.000 in why spring Hill Jack is such a memorable figure 211 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.799 and has survived in people's recollections a lot longer than 212 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:11.279 similar bogeymen. 213 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.200 Well, I tell you one thing it taught me, for 214 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.000 sure is that before you retreat into the wilderness, makes 215 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.879 sure you have some basic ceramic skills. 216 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:21.600 Yes, that's the one thing they didn't seem to have 217 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:24.320 with them. Maybe they couldn't find any clay, but yeah, 218 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:25.200 that people. 219 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:25.720 Commented on that one. 220 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:28.399 Actually all right, But I don't think we're judgement too 221 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:29.559 harsh to you, or I would have been dead a 222 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.039 long time before they were. 223 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:32.559 I think I believe you're correct. 224 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:35.960 Can we link this one to the show? Notes? 225 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.559 I get through that the show, that's for sure. Apparently 226 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.799 it's a great thing to link to. Can you give 227 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:45.159 us an overview of the spring Hill Jack's story, the phenomena, 228 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.279 and why you think he's such an enduring figure? 229 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:53.879 Yes, Well, the Springhiel Jack's story, as it is usually told, 230 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.600 relates to a hideous, demonic bogeyman, as we would say 231 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.919 in Britain, or boogieman you might prefer to say, who 232 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:05.399 turned up in London at the very beginning of Queen 233 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.279 Victoria's reign. We're talking about eighteen thirty seven thirty eight 234 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:13.480 in the winter, then first of all in villages around 235 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:17.600 the outskirts of the town, and later on inside London itself. 236 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.759 What was remarkable about these stories was well, I mean, 237 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:23.440 there were a couple of things. Firstly, they were extremely ubiquitous. 238 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.559 A lot of people had apparently witnessed this strange. 239 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.320 And terrifying creature. 240 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.960 Secondly, and perhaps more intriguingly, spring Hill Deck himself was 241 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:36.480 some sort of shapeshifter. In the very first sightings referred 242 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.799 to him in a wide variety of guises, everything from 243 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.159 a ghost. 244 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:41.720 A bear, a devil, a figure. 245 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:45.759 Clad in armor, a figure who was a gigantic baboon, 246 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.639 even in one case. And it's only over a period 247 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:53.039 of time period of some weeks that he slowly metamorphosed 248 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.360 into the figure that we now know from the sort 249 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:58.120 of forty and secondary literature, which is very much a 250 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.159 devil figure. Essentially, he was a tall, thin gentlemanly had 251 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:06.960 blazing red eyes, and his sort of signature move essentially 252 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.559 was that he shot blue and white balls of fire 253 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.399 out of his mouth when he attacked his victims, who 254 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:13.759 are usually helpless young girls. 255 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.519 I like the descriptions that he usually are vomited blue flames. 256 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:19.639 That's correct. 257 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.039 Yes, well, this is one of the things that's most 258 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:24.159 commonly associated with him, although of course, in fact, when 259 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.600 you go back to the original sources, you discovered that 260 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.679 it wasn't quite as commonplace as one might be led 261 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:31.679 to believe. That there are certainly two or three cases 262 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.080 of eyewitnesses describing this happening. And one of the things 263 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:38.000 I've looked into over the years is to what extent 264 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.480 one could potentially duplicate this effect in a normal way. 265 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.039 But the majority of cases certainly later, somealy after eighteen 266 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.600 thirty eight, the later versions of spring hil Jack for 267 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:50.919 one of a better word. We'll go into this later. 268 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.159 Noteubt didn't exhibit this particular ability. This was unique to 269 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:55.919 the spring Hill Jack of London at the beginning of 270 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.039 Queen Victoria's reign. 271 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:00.759 I wish there'd been some evidence of that captured on 272 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:01.559 film or something. 273 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:05.840 Well, it appeared just at the very beginning of photography. 274 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.720 I mean, in eighteen thirty seven, photographs have just been invented. 275 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.799 But you needed an exposure of ten to twelve hours, 276 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.759 so you weren't going to capture something as fleet of 277 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.759 foot Jack on an early plate, sadly enough, And he'cently. 278 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:20.559 Been appearing even in recent years, hasn't he There have. 279 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:23.240 Been some Yeah, absolutely, I mean, and this, of course 280 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.200 is one of the fascinating things about him and one 281 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:27.879 of the things that's kept me researching for very I mean, 282 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.200 I've never had a research project that's gone on as 283 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.279 long as my spring Hill Jack project. I began work 284 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.559 on this in the autumn of nineteen eighty two and 285 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.000 I'm just about ready to publish my results now. And 286 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:39.600 one of the reasons it's taken me so long is 287 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.320 that he's a figure who crops up in all sorts 288 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.799 of strange places and times, and even relatively recently, we've 289 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.879 had very very cases. It was very similar to spring 290 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.480 Heel Jack in places like Argentina, Somalia, and it's a 291 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.720 figure which has some sort of hold I think over 292 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.600 people minds and memories, and I can testify to this person. 293 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.600 I mean, my own interest in the subject really began 294 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.000 in the early nineteen seventies when I was a kid 295 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.759 and I used to get a magazine called World of Wonder, 296 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.440 which is published in Britain and was sort of an 297 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:13.519 educational magazine, but it had a feature in it called 298 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.840 Strange Stories, and one week the strange story was about 299 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:19.000 spring Hill Jack, and it was illustrated by a rather 300 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.120 dramatic picture of him sort of leaping out of the 301 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.039 page towards you with his sort of balls of fire 302 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.840 I was shooting out of his mouth and it completely 303 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:27.679 terrified me, and I was about eleven at the time. 304 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.600 And the thing that was scary about him, I think 305 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.600 was the way in which two things. Firstly, he was 306 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.240 described as essentially ageless, I mean, and this goes back 307 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:39.159 again to the spring Hill Jack legend. As it's usually 308 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.519 told he turns up in eighteen thirty seven, but he's 309 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.679 last seen in his original British Guys at least in Everton, 310 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.000 which is a suburb of Liverpool, in nineteen oh four, 311 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.159 which immediately says to you, well, it can't be a 312 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.480 human being. If this is the same person and he's 313 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.159 lived that long and he's still agile and still apparently unchanging, 314 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.399 then there must be something supernatural about him. And the 315 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.759 second thing, I think, which is particularly terrify fining and 316 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.759 gets the imagination going about spring Hill Jack, certainly an 317 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:07.680 eleven year old boys. Is the agility that's associated with him, 318 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.200 the fact that he has this name and can leap 319 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:11.759 over houses and so on. Of course, of what that 320 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:13.559 really means if you're eleven years old, is there's no 321 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:15.880 reason he can't appear on your windows cell that night, 322 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:17.279 in the middle of the night when your parents are 323 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:19.279 estaped tapping on the window to be let in. And 324 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:21.279 I think that's essentially what got me going about him, 325 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.680 and what's that terror? Essentially is what's motivated me over 326 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.599 the years. I'm sort of trying to defuse that eleven 327 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:29.960 year old boy's fear of the of the dark, of 328 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.200 the unknown, and of course of of devils and demons 329 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:34.119 as well. And it's kept me going for you know, 330 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.200 thirty odd years, this particular project as a result. 331 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:39.680 Wow, that is so similar to my background. 332 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:40.599 Is that in mind too? 333 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.279 Yeah, it's the I caught the things that used to 334 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.640 scare the crap out of me as a child. You 335 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:49.559 edits it that it's such a such a driver. 336 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:51.599 Well and for and for good. 337 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:52.880 I mean, you know a lot of good work has 338 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:54.519 come out of it, you know, turning on your part, 339 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.720 Blake and Hopefully my springhil jackwork will be you know, 340 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.559 we'll do some good in terms of sort the week 341 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.200 from the chat essentially, I mean, of all the subjects 342 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.240 I've studied, and there have been a few over the years, 343 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:09.799 I think the spinkle Jacket, the original spinkle Jack, the 344 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:13.680 one in the original sources, differs perhaps most dramatically from 345 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.160 the one who appears in the secondary forty and sources 346 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:19.160 in terms of just how unlike the way in which 347 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.160 is portrayed in the sort of secondary works, the original 348 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:22.160 springhil Jack was. 349 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:25.279 Let's talk about it just a little deeper. He has 350 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.880 these powers. He can leap, he can jump, he can 351 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:35.240 blow blue flames, he has glowing eyes. He's dressed a 352 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.880 little bit oddly. Iron claws, Yeah, yeah, he has iron claws. 353 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.680 I forget about that. And then but somehow in the 354 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:46.880 contemporary accounts, I'm not clear on this. It's not that 355 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.480 he's a rapist. He's kind of a grabbist. Is that 356 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:50.640 his things? 357 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:52.480 I mean, we were today, I suppose to call it 358 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.799 sexual assault. Essentially, he leaps out of you know, sort 359 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.359 of dark corners and grabs young girls, I mean teenage 360 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.240 girls who are walking by, and well, I mean, this 361 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:05.920 is what he did in his two most famous assaults, 362 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.240 and then had these two assaults and not happen. I 363 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.559 think we wouldn't remember from el Jack today. I mean 364 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:12.480 the main reason for this being that the girls in 365 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:14.799 question actually then did report him to the authorities, and 366 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.720 there was a police investigation as a result, and a 367 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:20.359 lot of people, of course naturally assume that, you know, 368 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:22.480 if someone who's been has been attacked and goes to 369 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.000 the authorities and gets the magistrates looking for this person, 370 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:26.960 well there must be something in it. 371 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.680 They're not going to be just lying about something like that. That. 372 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.680 The first of these cases involved a girl called Jane 373 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:37.000 Olsop who lived in a lonely house near Bow, which 374 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.599 is in East London, but it was on the outskirts 375 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.200 of London at this time. It was still a sort 376 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:42.559 of semi rural area, and her house was on a 377 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.880 sort of back pathway that was led past some fields essentially, 378 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.119 and it was several hundred yards at least from the 379 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:51.880 sort of nearest other house. And the story goes and 380 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.640 then this is the sort of that Jane herself told 381 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.480 that on the twenty second of February eighteen thirty eight, 382 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.799 at about nine in the evening, there is a violent 383 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.119 knocking at the gate of this house in Bearbinder Lane 384 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:05.119 in East London, and Jane was in the house with 385 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.240 her elder sister and her two parents, and she went 386 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.559 out to find out what the problem was. And there 387 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:13.640 was a tall, dark figure standing in the shadows. I mean, 388 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:15.920 of course, this was before street lights and everything else 389 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:19.480 was available in the middle of winter, who said, for 390 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.640 God's sake, bring me a light, for we've caught spring 391 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.519 heel jack here in the lane. Jane went back indoors 392 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:26.000 and she went to fetch a candle, which she brought 393 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:28.240 out to this figure standing by the garden gate, and 394 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.200 when she gave it to him, he held it up 395 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.039 underneath his chin, which of course is the sort of 396 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.640 classic Halloween posture which you do with a torture in 397 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.880 telling a scary story Halloween. But when she looked at 398 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.119 his face in that light, she saw it had a 399 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.720 sort of demonic aspect, and the eyes were glowing like 400 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:44.319 red balls of fire, and he then breathed his blue 401 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.640