WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:05.519 Ask not what your country can do for you, ask 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:09.279 what you can do for your country. Mister Gerba show 3 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:15.039 Tear down this Wall. It's the Ricochet Podcast with Peter 4 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:16.679 Robinson and Charles C. W. 5 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:17.000 Cook. 6 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:19.280 I'm James Alex and today we talked to Christine Rosen 7 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:21.920 about the extinction of experience. I know it sounds horrible, 8 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.039 but she's talking about being human in a disembodied world. 9 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:26.679 So let's tell us that's a podcast. 10 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:30.800 My fellow New york Is it is now my belief 11 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:35.000 that the federal government intends to charge me with crimes. 12 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:42.200 If so, these charges will be entirely false based on lives. 13 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:47.200 I always knew that if I stood my ground all of. 14 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:51.039 You, that I would be a topic. Well, hi there, 15 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:53.200 this is the Ricochet Podcast. And if you're wondering how 16 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:59.039 many we've done, we've done seven hundred and ten. What up, No, 17 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:01.560 we've done seven hundred to nine. When this is thank you, 18 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:05.239 we will have done seven and there are protesting times. 19 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:06.120 Winger Cheriot is. 20 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.599 Peter Robinson with us again, Thank Evans and Charles A 21 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:12.760 Cook in Florida. And before we get to the news 22 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:14.959 of the day, well it is the news of the day. Frankly, 23 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.799 how are you faring in the latest onslaught of Mother Nature? 24 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:19.400 Charlie. 25 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:20.560 We're good, We're good. 26 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:23.480 We're not in the same position as those who are hit. 27 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.959 It really does look very bad, so thoughts to them. 28 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:30.159 But we did have a lot of rain and wind, 29 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:34.319 and furniture went into the pool, and the doors were 30 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:36.560 slamming all night, and the lightning alarm was going off 31 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:38.799 and the kids kept waking up, so we were aware 32 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.760 of it. But fortunately, as far as I can see, 33 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:42.680 there's no damage. 34 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:45.519 How far are you from the beach, Very. 35 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.519 Close to the beach, but on the east coast. 36 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.120 If I may ask the lightning detector. 37 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:56.560 Yeah, so there are lightning alarms in the town and 38 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:57.719 they go off. 39 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:01.359 To tell you that, to tell you there has been lightning. 40 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.680 Wow, to tell you there's lightning within five miles in 41 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.000 case you're playing golf or tennis, or you're outside holding 42 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:10.039 that I'm made of steel. 43 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:12.439 There's something completely unknown to those of us here who 44 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:14.759 just simply enjoy the arc across the sky and give 45 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:16.560 it no more thought. But we have tennis, and we 46 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:18.639 have golf and the rest of it. A lightning alarm 47 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.360 that's fascinating. We'll glad you're say, yes, you are on 48 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:23.400 the east coast. You know, I always tell my wife 49 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:24.719 that I want to move to the west. I want 50 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.960 to be near palm trees and warm breezes and the sea. 51 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:30.879 And then she's looking at this and cooking and crocking 52 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.199 an eyebrow, cocking an eyebrow at Well, if we followed 53 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:36.840 your advice, of course we would be either a out 54 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.360 of a house or you know, be paying Usurus insurance rates, 55 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.479 which I understand is part of a problem. Ah difficult 56 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:45.360 to ensure houses down there, and you can sort of 57 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:46.240 kind of see why. 58 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:49.840 But yes, may I pile in on that very moment, 59 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:52.319 at every point, I want to see what Charlie does 60 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:56.159 to slap me down on this one. Hurricane season in 61 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.360 Florida raises each year the only imperfection that I can 62 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:04.120 find in Florida political culture, and it is this people 63 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:08.919 who are eleven months a year stout conservative supporters of 64 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:12.319 Rond descentis wishing in every regard to roll back the 65 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.039 government and get it out of our lives. In hurricane month, 66 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.639 say oh, yes, but of course the government must subsidize 67 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:24.400 all our insurance. Charlie, would you care to defend your 68 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:25.840 fellow Floridians. 69 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:33.280 No, I'm not greatly in favor of subsidies. I think 70 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:37.719 it's probably a little more complicated because there are already subsidies. 71 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:43.199 So we're talking about requests within a system that already 72 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.120 objers the free market. But no, I thought you were 73 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.360 going to say that when the hurricanes come, people say 74 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:50.080 the government must save us, and I was going to say, 75 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:52.719 ish it. That is what we have a government for, yes, 76 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:56.759 going out and saving people in natural disasters. But now 77 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:02.560 I think that the free market instinct should be universal, 78 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:05.479 and there's no reason others should pay to ensure my 79 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:07.039 house because I want to live near the beach. So 80 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:07.759 I'm with you. 81 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.080 Well, right, all right, Sorry, James, that went nowhere. That 82 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.520 was a conversational non starter. I thought I could get 83 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:15.039 a rise. 84 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:15.159 Out of it. 85 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.399 Well, he is unflappable in English. There are some I 86 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.399 mean in his origin story. He's an America now as 87 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:23.160 much as any of us. 88 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:24.959 But so maybe like Batman. 89 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:29.560 Well, speaking of Gotham City, the mayor Eric Adams has 90 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.680 been first mayor and one hundred and ten or something. 91 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.560 To be slapped with a bunch of charges. 92 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:38.319 And people are saying, well, he's saying that the reason 93 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:40.920 they're coming after him is because he has criticized the 94 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.399 immigration policies of the administration. I don't think that's it. 95 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.639 I think it might have to do something with taking 96 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:52.560 money from a foreign government, specifically Turkey. 97 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:53.560 Peter. 98 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.959 I know that, you know, it may not seem like 99 00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.519 a big deal to the rest of the country, because 100 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.040 no mayor from New York is, aside from Giuliani who failed, 101 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.439 has had much of a national political impact. But if 102 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.959 he does go down, there is a man standing behind 103 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.519 him who will take the job, who is of the 104 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:15.759 most radical bent you can imagine, and might further Well, 105 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.800 let me put it this way, is New York almost 106 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.199 impervious to the death blow? Is there just something in there? 107 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.680 It's raw, that's the spirit that will keep it going 108 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.160 so that it matter know what, it doesn't matter what 109 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.079 sort of idiot gets in, It will still continue to 110 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:31.920 burn bright and throw off a bunch of money. Or 111 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:35.240 is the problem that plays a lot of American city's 112 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.000 about to get worse for New York And I'm sorry, 113 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.480 New York does matter. It matters a lot to the 114 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.920 sense of this country, to its national identity, to its 115 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.319 conception of itself. It is the Empire State Building. It 116 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.319 is the brawny city of the forties that we saw, 117 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.319 that you've see in the old newsreels, the glory of 118 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:51.720 I mean, I love New York. 119 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:53.720 Can't stay there more than three days, but I love 120 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:55.199 New York. So what's your thought on this? 121 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:58.519 Yeah, well, Charlie will chime in on this because as 122 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:01.959 a National reviewman, he knows New York well. Has figured 123 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.959 out very happily a way not to have to live there, 124 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:07.399 but he knows New York well. So I grew up 125 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:10.639 in upstate New York, and for me, the city was 126 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.639 the great and glittering Oz. It was where I got 127 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.759 to go on a field trip with a theater club, 128 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:19.920 where we would go see two or three Broadway shows 129 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.319 matinees which were cheap tickets, and where my parents a 130 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:25.439 couple of times they did well on report cards, and 131 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.279 my reward was a weekend family trip down. 132 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:28.759 To the city. 133 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.879 So for me, it is just fixed as a kind 134 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:34.079 of mythical It's where the action was, It's where all 135 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:38.240 the sophistication was. Okay, those were the days when New 136 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:43.000 York as a state functioned pretty well, when upstate towns 137 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:47.959 the mid sized towns, the sort of American answer to Bavaria, Binghamton, 138 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:53.199 outside of which I grew up, Utica, Rochester, Schenectady. All 139 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:57.600 of these towns were still functioning relatively healthy. Schenectady was 140 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:02.759 General Electric, Rochester was eastman Kodak Binghamton, and Johnson City, 141 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:03.399 where I grew. 142 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:04.920 Up was IBM. 143 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.600 That part of the state has essentially collapsed, and the 144 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:14.360 city itself has about the same population today that it 145 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:16.600 had when I was a kid. So what does that 146 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.120 mean that it hasn't grown with the rest of the country. 147 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:23.399 The imperviousness, and it does seem to be impervious, is 148 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:27.680 all now narrowed down to financial services, where there are 149 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.160 I don't know what one hundred thousand, two hundred thousand 150 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.439 people in Manhattan who receive annual incomes every single year 151 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.480 of well in excessive a million dollars and keep that 152 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:41.160 whole town going. But for the as a place that 153 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.720 was open to the middle class, as a place where 154 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.279 when I was a kid, when we went to college 155 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.839 in those days, the Ivy League was quite regional. It 156 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.759 was an East Coast institution, and if like me, you 157 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:55.680 were interested in journalism, you dreamed of going to New York. 158 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.839 There were still publishing houses in New York where the published. 159 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:02.879 I visit did Scribner's Scripner's wonderful building on Fifth Avenue, 160 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:06.639 which I think now is a is a Sephora makeup 161 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.160 shop or something of that nature. Charles Scribner the third 162 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.639 sat at a desk and chatted with me and pulled 163 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.839 out a manuscript that he had discovered stuffed way in 164 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:18.920 the back of the desk that Max, who was the 165 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:19.720 great editor. 166 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.839 It was a It was a Max Perkins. 167 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.000 Max Perkins exactly. Max Perkins had sat at that desk 168 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.600 and had begun marking up a Hemingway manuscript and gone 169 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:32.200 out for a Boloney sandwich at lunch or something like that, 170 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:34.679 and shoved them and it had gotten jammed in the 171 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:37.120 drawer at the back of the desk, and Charlie Scribner 172 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.039 had discovered it. Okay, all of that was the mythical 173 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:43.519 New York that seems to be gone. Now you're Bill 174 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:46.159 Ackman and a billionaire, and the many people at or 175 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.480 Ken Griffin and Citadel, and you're hiring extremely braake kids, 176 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:53.960 and that little cone of finance does extremely well, and 177 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.720 everything else is half what it was. Moving elsewhere. So 178 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:03.120 there is a kind of very narrow sphere of activity 179 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.039 that is impervious, but the rest of the city it 180 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:07.000 doesn't feel that way to me. 181 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:10.320 Charlie correct me, Well. 182 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:12.399 I don't disagree with all that you said. I just 183 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:16.360 still think that it's a truly great city. We were 184 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.159 just having this conversation on the Editor's podcast as to 185 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.000 whether or not New York is the greatest city in 186 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.559 the world, and I said that, although it's not my 187 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:26.559 favorite city in the world, I think it is the 188 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:28.600 greatest city in the world in the same way as 189 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:30.679 London was the greatest city in the world one hundred 190 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.360 and fifty years ago. Whether or not people preferred it 191 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.480 to Paris or Berlin or what you will, New York 192 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.679 just seems to me to be the center of the universe, 193 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.399 the capital of the West, and it makes it more 194 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.720 baffling than I can describe that. Having worked out what 195 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:55.960 it needs to do to run itself, well, it's declined 196 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:01.279 to do that for now thirteen fourteen years. I mean, 197 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.639 we know what to do to make New York run. 198 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:09.679 What you need is a centrist or center right social 199 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:12.440 liberal who does not agree with National Review on most 200 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:15.879 things except crime right, and who make sure that the 201 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:21.000 city doesn't plunge itself into unmanageable debt, and that deploys 202 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:25.519 police around in the places that they're needed, and cleans 203 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:29.039 up homeless encampments, and then New York works. I was 204 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.919 lucky I moved to New York in twenty eleven. My 205 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:34.519 parents back in England still had a conception of New 206 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.240 York as it was in the nineteen eighties and early 207 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:39.600 nineteen nineties. It's a very dangerous place, and they kept 208 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:40.879 saying to me be careful. 209 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:41.240 Now. 210 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:43.000 I didn't in any way resent that, but I did 211 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.600 have to update them and say, did you know that 212 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:47.559 it is more dangerous to live in London than it 213 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.799 is to live in Manhattan? Right now, Well, that's no 214 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:53.240 longer true. Unfortunately, it's not as bad as Seapple or 215 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:56.799 San Francisco, but it's no longer true. When I lived 216 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:00.519 there from twenty eleven to twenty fourteen, I worked there 217 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:04.360 from twenty eleven to twenty seventeen, it was paradise and 218 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:05.840 you could walk her out in the middle of the 219 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.759 night and you could have shouted, I've got lots of 220 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.120 valuables in my bag. At one o'clock in the morning, 221 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.600 and no one would have touched you. The subway was 222 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.480 clean and safe. It was great. 223 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:21.320 Actually, you make an extremely important point. New York attracts 224 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.039 so much talent and so much capital that all the 225 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.039 government of the city needs to do is two things, 226 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:32.879 only two. Give the city safe streets and make sure 227 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:36.559 as the subways run correct. That's all, that's all. And 228 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:40.159 they those two things. You do, those two things, and 229 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.159 you do have the capital of the world. 230 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:42.600 Right. 231 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.159 The last time I was in New York City, I 232 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:47.399 was awakened early, early, early in the morning by the 233 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.200 symphony of jackhammers going on outside across the street, where 234 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:52.519 they were building a sixty story tower called the Flame, 235 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:54.399 which will have a roller coaster at the top of it. 236 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.200 I made my way down a creaking, shuddering elevator from 237 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:59.559 the nineteen twenties into the lobby of the Paramount Hotel, 238 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:02.360 which has been updated since it was redone in the nineties. 239 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:04.120 It looks like there should be a copy of Madonna's 240 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.480 sex books sitting in the lobby somewhere outside. 241 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:07.200 Take a left. 242 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.320 You instantly are hit by the sounds of the cacaphony, 243 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.360 the noise of everything. You jostle against people as you walk. 244 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:15.639 When you get to Times Square, a couple of blocks later, 245 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.200 you pass the Kababs, you pass the place the roama 246 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.960 has come flowing up, the Sabarett's hot dogs, and then 247 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.159 as you wend your way through Times Square, you feel 248 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:25.240 the rumble of the subways beneath you as you pass 249 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.159 a grate, and you can sense the whole arteries that 250 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:30.000 stretch through the entire city. I moved about ten blocks 251 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:31.759 to the north and made my way to Central Park, 252 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:34.440 and then I was in a green and verdant paradise. 253 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.919 It was a delight to the eyes and smelled beautiful 254 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.120 and fresh and crisp, and the rest of it from 255 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:42.960 there to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, where I beheld 256 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:45.600 with my own eyes, thanks to the light bouncing off 257 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:48.360 them and going into my retinas, the sights of art 258 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.279 of which I had never seen, and all of it 259 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:53.080 was the soundtrack of the noise of the people enjoying 260 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:55.440 and the hundreds of people in the lobby and the 261 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.960 rest of it. It was a completely and utterly human experience. 262 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.720 It was what it meant to be human. And if 263 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.159 you want to feel embodied, there is no better place 264 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:04.440 to go. 265 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.279 Than New York City, which. 266 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:08.799 Brings us to our guest, Christine rot Rosen, has written 267 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:13.840 the extinction of experience being human in a disembodied world. 268 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:18.799 It's a very simple concept. It's a very complex concept. 269 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:19.519 Christine. 270 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.399 Welcome, Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. 271 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:27.080 So here's the deal. We've sort of made this bargain 272 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.600 with technology that all of these things that our little 273 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:32.799 glowing rectangles are portable. 274 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:33.879 Supercomputers are going to be able to do. 275 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.360 Was provide all of these adjuncts and add ons and 276 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:40.879 improvements to life in which our physical selves would dissolve 277 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.080 almost in a rapturous sense, with this metaverse of possibilities. 278 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:50.919 And how's that working out for us? Let's just start there. 279 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:53.720 Well, not so well. 280 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.960 I'm sure your listeners have all seen the sort of 281 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:00.600 dramatic stories about teen mental health crises and you know, 282 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:06.039 particularly depression, anxiety. Those are all big concerns, as is 283 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:08.879 what social media has done to our politics. But I 284 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:13.080 actually was looking at more of a baseline individual level, 285 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:17.440 at how it's changed our daily interactions and our daily behavior, 286 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:20.080 because I think that often gets overlooked because you can 287 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:22.960 easily dismiss the extreme stories and say, oh, well, that's 288 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:24.879 up to parents to figure that out, or oh, it's 289 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.159 not as bad as people say. And everyone always is 290 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.080 worried about new technology, but I think it's actually really 291 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:33.120 interposed itself on the way we treat each other in 292 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.639 daily life. And I mean the strangers in public space 293 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.360 we come into contact with, I mean our most intimate 294 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.240 relations with our family members and our loved ones. And 295 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.759 I worry that we've allowed certain behaviors to become habits 296 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:49.240 and habits of mind and ways of thinking about the 297 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.120 world without really pausing to consider if that's the direction 298 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.480 we want to go. We've had these technologies for a 299 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.679 while now we think we've adapted to them, but I 300 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.200 think in some ways we're becoming machine like rather than 301 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.840 making the machines more human. 302 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:07.080 So, Christine, I can think of one example, and it's 303 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.919 too trivial for you to have written a book about it, 304 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.039 but I'll give you the example, and then you give 305 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.840 me something more meaningful. I just got back from a 306 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:21.000 trip to Europe and we took friends. We didn't know 307 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.360 these people, but the friends of friends, and we went 308 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:27.480 to dinner with some europe some Europeans, and I thought 309 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.919 that in Europe, of all places, there would still be 310 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:36.919 some sense of protocol, of the protocols of courtesy, and 311 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.240 then at dinner we would all talk to each other 312 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:44.919 and lo and behold. Even Europeans felt totally free and 313 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:47.799 un self conscious about plucking out their phones in the 314 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.919 middle of conversation and just dropping out of the conversation 315 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.159 until they had answered their emails. Okay, so that's one 316 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.559 thing I don't twenty years ago that would have been 317 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:03.200 unthink any place in America or Europe. I have the 318 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.559 feeling that it has become common place. Certainly here in 319 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.759 Silicon Valley it's commonplace. But okay, but that's not enough 320 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:10.639 to write a book about. 321 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:16.240 No, although I could write many rants about just that practice. 322 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:21.159 But that is one example among many of the way 323 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.039 this technology and our use of it has come between 324 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.840 us and some basic human pleasures. So I do have 325 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.679 a chapter about human pleasures, whether that's food, hanging out 326 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.039 with friends, going to life, music, going to a museum, travel. 327 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.480 In every single realm of our private experience of pleasure, 328 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:40.960 we have allowed technology to interpose itself between us and 329 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.840 the experience. Now, some of that's fine. You want to 330 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.000 take a picture of something you see. But the research 331 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.440 is really interesting on that people take pictures of things, 332 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.120 of experiences, particularly pleasurable experiences, thinking this will help me 333 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.080 remember this experience. But in fact, the way our weird 334 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.279 brains are wired, if you take a picture of something, 335 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.559 you're less likely to remember it because there's some part 336 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.200 of your brain that registers that you've externalized the memory 337 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.519 function there. You've got a picture of it, you don't 338 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.359 have to remember quite as much. So when we go 339 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.480 on vacations, when we go to art museums and we 340 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.240 sit around with friends, if we are putting a screen 341 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.279 between us and that experience, we will have a different 342 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.759 qualitative experience obviously, which is what you're describing, but we'll 343 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.480 also have a different memory of that experience. And I 344 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.079 think again that's one of those things where because our 345 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:27.160 phones are so powerful and they can take these amazing 346 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.559 pictures and it's so easy to do, we think that's 347 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.880 all a positive, that's a net positive for society. But 348 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.200 how many times do people sit down and go through 349 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:37.720 their phones and scroll through it the way people used 350 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:39.640 to sit down and go through a photo album when 351 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.440 photos were harder to take in more precious objects and 352 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:46.559 tangible objects. There's all kind of interesting new research that 353 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.759 shows that some of our memory formation of really deep 354 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.440 important human experiences is being altered by our constant mediation 355 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.759 and use of technology. As for the Europeans, I do 356 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.799 find that shocking, and I have noticed that as well 357 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:02.920 when I was in London and Paris. Is surprising, yes, 358 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.920 but again these are norms that have shifted with time. 359 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:07.839 Some people will look at that and say, oh, that's 360 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.799 just technology, we're adapting to it. But that is technology 361 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.599 in a deeply personal space right where you're sitting down 362 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.160 across the table enjoying a meal with friends. Television people 363 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.000 used to rant about, you know, all kinds of things computers, 364 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.559 even people would rant about. But in this case, again 365 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.119 very private personal moments all being fed through a screen 366 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.160 or allowing a person it's a real power move still 367 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.039 actually to pull out your phone and to remove yourself 368 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.799 from a social situation. But it's accepted, and I'm not 369 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:36.880 sure we should accept that. 370 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.200 So, Christine, you are a person of such good cheer 371 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.440 and such a transparently good heart that you can propose 372 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.640 the most draconian reforms you want to and people will 373 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.079 still say to themselves, well, you know, listening to from 374 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.920 Christine Rosen, I could just about take it. So what 375 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:02.599 how draconian are the reforms or the readjustments to our 376 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:06.039 norms and protocols are What are you suggesting? 377 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.240 Well, these are the kinds of things that you can't 378 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.200 really legislate. I mean, there's some things you can do 379 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.480 to protect kids, and I've written about that, But in the. 380 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.720 Folks, have you done with your own kids? If I may, well, 381 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.960 I listened to enough of the commentary podcast to know 382 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.920 that you're very good and extremely attentive, and, like many 383 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:24.279 of us, a tortured parent. 384 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:27.319 Yes, well, my kids are now both freshmen in college. 385 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.680 But zero to five I was pretty draconian. 386 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.720 Zero to five. They had no screens, no television, no movies, 387 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:33.519 zero computers. 388 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.400 Zero from zero to five because my feeling was that 389 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.920 they needed to learn to read before they were captured 390 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.119 by the image. The image is a much more powerful thing. 391 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.279 It's much more entrancing, especially for kids. So I was 392 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.200 pretty hardcore. I don't think all parents need to do that. 393 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.400 That was just my choice. As they got older, they 394 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:53.400 didn't get a cell phone untill they were in high school. 395 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:54.279 They were a lot. 396 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.680 I think they were the last kids, and again they 397 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.839 complained bitterly about it. Now, however, they of on a 398 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.319 couple of occasions said, you know what, it's easy for 399 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.160 me to put down my phone. It's easy for me 400 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.240 to block Snapchat for a couple of weeks because I'm 401 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:08.000