WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.640 One of the biggest hot button issues throughout the course 2 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:06.040 of the twenty twenty four election, and it's become the 3 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:08.839 biggest issue, perhaps the biggest issue. One of the biggest 4 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:11.880 issues in the first days of the new Trump administration 5 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:17.359 is that of immigration, immigration enforcement, and there have been 6 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:20.960 questions and concerns about some of the ethical issues involved 7 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:26.600 surrounding the enforcement of immigration law. Joining me to discuss 8 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:29.640 those issues for the first half of the show is 9 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:32.640 the Bishop of the Roman Catholicics of Fresno, Bishop Joseph Brennan. 10 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.119 Bishop Brennan, Welcome to the John Girardi Show. 11 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:36.920 John, good to see you again. Thank you. 12 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:39.159 Yeah, well, it's always good to have you on. 13 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:46.560 You made a few headlines just about three weeks or 14 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.359 so ago when you had an opbed that was published 15 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.159 by the Fresno b and a couple of other local 16 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:55.840 news outlets, and it was with regards to some immigration 17 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:00.439 enforcement efforts that were taking place in the San Joaquin Valley, 18 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:04.719 and you had some concerns about wanting to, you know, 19 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:09.239 safeguard the legitimate rights of immigrants who are here in 20 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:16.000 the valley. Since then, a lot of immigration law and 21 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:19.560 immigration enforcement water has flown flowed under the bridge. I 22 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:24.920 mean that was that was pre Trump inauguration. So basically 23 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.400 I wanted I thought it would be an interesting thing 24 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:29.879 for the show to have you on to discuss sort 25 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.280 of your view as a pastor who has you know, 26 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:38.200 members of your congregation who are directly caught up in 27 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:43.640 immigration issues, and sort of to talk about the are 28 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:48.200 specifically Catholic, but I guess the broader Christian traditions surrounding 29 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:53.719 thoughts on migration and immigration and the limits of these 30 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:57.640 this right that people have to migrate, and and sort 31 00:01:57.640 --> 00:01:59.120 of talking about the American context. 32 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.280 So I thought, maybe first. 33 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.799 Just to kind of give you the floor of kind 34 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:08.840 of general Catholic teaching about immigration. 35 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:11.319 Sure, just just the just to give us the. 36 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.560 Ground level of what we think, because I think on 37 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:18.360 the right especially, there's some caricature that you know, the 38 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.080 bishops are just completely in favor of open borders, and 39 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:25.199 I want you to kind of I'll give you space, 40 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.000 I'll stop youy ammering and give you space to kind 41 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.479 of lay out sort of the basic principles that of 42 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.120 Catholic teaching with regard to immigration. 43 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.240 Wonderful, Thank you, John. Actually, there may indeed be some 44 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.319 bishops who are in favor of open borders. 45 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:37.599 But that's not the that's. 46 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:41.000 Not the stance of the Roman Catholic Church that I belong. 47 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:44.080 To, right well, and that might be something we'll discuss 48 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:47.000 later on, but anyway, go ahead. 49 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:50.240 Well, yes, you mentioned the rights of immigrants or the 50 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:54.919 rights of people to migrate for various reasons, and the 51 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:58.319 Church has promoted that and sustained that. But the language 52 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:03.400 is specific and I think and instructive for our time, 53 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:07.919 in our day and age right now. The language is 54 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:11.639 to people have the right to sustain their life. So 55 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.919 it's not like the right to a better life or 56 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.680 the right to the American dream. We've heard about that, sure, 57 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:23.319 people seeking that, so, John, the language is interesting in specific. 58 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.240 It talks about the right to sustain one's life or 59 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:31.639 the life of one's family. So it's about basic human 60 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:36.360 rights for literally in a sense, preserving your life and 61 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.919 protecting the lives of yourself and your children. And if 62 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:46.000 to do that a person deems it necessary to migrate 63 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.240 from one place to another, that's kind of the right 64 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:53.919 that's being talked about in the Catholic social teaching. But 65 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.439 we've had an open border for a really long time 66 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.800 pretty open border like a sieve, and that has created 67 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.759 some incredible difficulties and problems for our people. And the 68 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.000 recent developments in our country and here in the state 69 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:12.520 of California, I have just simply brought that to the 70 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:17.920 forefront in ways that you know, we might have been anticipated, 71 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.839 but have kind of in a sense overwhelmed a lot 72 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:21.439 of our people. 73 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.680 But yes, you know, like and because this is kind 74 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:28.560 of an interesting way to think about this in the 75 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.279 context of I mean, one of the big changes that 76 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:35.759 happened under the Biden administration was I think the abuse 77 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.959 of the asylum system within American law. So the asylum 78 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:42.480 system which is kind of designed for you know, I'm 79 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.920 fleeing Cuba on a raft. I don't have time for 80 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:50.319 a legal migrant immigration process. I wash ashore and they 81 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.040 assessed my asylum claim. It seems clear that basically a 82 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.360 lot of immigrants coming through Latin America, many of them 83 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.000 not some of them not Latin American, from China or 84 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.680 from all over the world, realize well, this is a 85 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:07.040 way kind of to cut the line that I can 86 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:08.920 just show up at the border make a claim of 87 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:13.480 asylum when really what I'm seeking is an economic I'm 88 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.800 wanting to come to America for the economics, yes, but 89 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.160 I'm going to make this asylum claim to almost get 90 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:19.639 me to the front of the line. And then with 91 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.639 the Biden administration basically changing from the remain in Mexico 92 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.279 policy of the Trump first Trump administration. Two, Okay, well 93 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:32.800 you can come into the United States. We'll give you 94 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.680 sort of we'll let you in and then just show 95 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.920 up for your court date in five years. That's been 96 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.399 I think that that's been a huge motivator of this 97 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.879 huge influx. And as you're saying, it's sort of the 98 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:51.079 right to migrate isn't just a right to necessarily American 99 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:52.680 economic opportunity. 100 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.519 It's just a right to help sustain yourself exactly. 101 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.279 And yeah, you mentioned asylum seekers and in a sense 102 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.639 refugees as well, and those that need to be honored, respected, 103 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.519 but identified and vetted too. And that's been a huge 104 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.879 problem in this whole mess. And it is a mess. 105 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:15.399 And the Church does recognize, you know, the rights for 106 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:20.199 states to preserve borders, to secure borders, to maintain them, 107 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:26.319 supervise them in a sense, the right to form immigration 108 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.319 policies that are fair and just. And you mentioned people 109 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.639 who are in line, and we need to honor them too. 110 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:39.120 And the question of justice pertains to the folks who are, 111 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:41.639 in a sense trying to do it the right way, 112 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.000 and the Church is certainly not opposed to that. But 113 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:48.920 you know, back in December, in fact, on the very 114 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:51.439 special feast day in our Catholic Church, the Feast of 115 00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:55.160 our Lady of Guadalupe, the Catholic Bishops issued a statement 116 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.160 kind of anticipating some of the things we're going through 117 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:02.040 now in regards to immigration. I wanted to just read 118 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:06.079 one very short paragraph from that that kind of captures 119 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.879 the certainly the spirit and the intent of my fellow 120 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.160 bishops here in the state of California, but I think 121 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:16.319 any group of bishops in the country dealing with this, 122 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:21.519 because this is the rationale behind our care and support 123 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.519 of everyone involved in this, but especially those immigrants who 124 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.519 might be at risk or suffering. So rooted in the 125 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:33.079 Gospel of Jesus Christ and the sacred dignity of every person, 126 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:37.319 we commit to accompanying and walking in solidarity with you 127 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:41.680 are migrant brothers, sisters, and families through this uncertain time. 128 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.120 And here's a key sentence. I love this. We will shepherd, 129 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:50.240 you spiritually gather information and resources and continue to advocate 130 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:53.519 for your dignity and family unity. 131 00:07:54.040 --> 00:08:01.199 So all right, well, and that all makes perfect sense 132 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.360 that I understand like being concerned. What were some of 133 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:13.120 the specific things? I guess there are some there's some 134 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:17.199 pushback that probably you yourself have gotten and probably the 135 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:21.920 California Bishops have gotten for some of the comments and 136 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:26.639 statements made well made since over the course of December 137 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.240 into January with immigration enforcement stuff to say, well, you know, 138 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:36.120 why is why are we this concerned if people did 139 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:40.639 actually you know, who is being made to be fearful 140 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:45.960 right now by it, you know, stepped up immigration enforcement efforts, 141 00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:50.639 you know, if people did in fact come into the 142 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:55.759 country illegally or have over stayed visas. And you know, 143 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:58.960 I understand the bishops wanting to be close to people 144 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.240 who are fearful, but at the same time, like if 145 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:07.559 you're fearful because you entered the country illegally or you've 146 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:13.960 overstayed your visa, those seem to me to be relatively fair, 147 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:19.639 you know, ground rules for immigration efforts. So are there 148 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:23.879 things you've seen as far as enforcement measures that are 149 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:25.399 specifically unjust? 150 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:25.679 Now? 151 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:30.759 And I think certain aspects certain changes that the Trump 152 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.279 administration has announced I'm not crazy about, like changing the 153 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.639 rules about enforcement on the grounds of churches or things 154 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:42.000 like that that I understand. But are are there certain 155 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.879 things that you've seen that you think are sort of 156 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:50.559 unfair or that have caused illegitimate or undue fears within 157 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:51.559 the immigrant community. 158 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:56.360 So John, I wouldn't say that there are illegitimate or 159 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:00.240 unjust would It would be akin to someone drive being 160 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.600 on a suspended license or without any license at all, 161 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:08.440 and being nervous and on edge at old times because 162 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:13.159 they're worried about a police officer, you know, pulling them 163 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:17.080 over for you know, a broken headlight or something right exactly, 164 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:21.360 and then it starts a whole cascade of real problems 165 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.399 for them. So our people are living under that kind 166 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:29.879 of fear who are undocumented and have had pastors and 167 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:34.279 religious education directors and others report directly to me about 168 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:38.200 families not showing up, families not sending their children to 169 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:43.320 even our Catholic schools, and or to religious education problems. 170 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:44.840 Programs, sorry, programs. 171 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:52.759 We sometimes I have major religious education problems, yes, and 172 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:58.240 even not coming to Sunday liturgy Sunday matter. So those 173 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:05.120 problems are real, unjust no, unfair, No, we all acknowledge that. Yes, 174 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.039 the technicality, if you can even call it, that is, 175 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.360 when you cross the border without documents, you have broken 176 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.679 the law. Yeah, However, the numbers are staggering, and I 177 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:20.559 don't know how we handle that, you know, fairly and 178 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:28.120 justly and and without instilling real, you know, anxiety and 179 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:29.360 fear in our community. 180 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:33.639 Well, yeah, and I guess that's the that's sort of 181 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.720 the double edged sort of this. I mean, on the 182 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.879 one hand, like, yes, I think family separation in any 183 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.240 context is awful and horrible. 184 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:46.679 At the same time, I guess I'm finding it hard to. 185 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:51.759 Well, I guess the one way in which I'm I 186 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:54.559 think there's a real legitimate thing to say on behalf 187 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.559 of immigrants who are in these situations is if you've 188 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:02.519 the whiplash back and forth of American policy over the 189 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.679 last ten years, let's say, going from Trump forty five 190 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:11.679 like don't come in the borders more or less secure 191 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:18.120 remain in Mexico policies in place heavy discouragement, which I 192 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.799 think had a deterrent effect on even just the number 193 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.919 of encounters like that the border patrol was getting like 194 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.159 people realized that the word got out, don't try it. Yes, 195 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:31.200 then the whiplash the other way of green light come 196 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.080 on in, And now you've got some Now you've got 197 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.679 like an immigrant family who got in under either over 198 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.840 state of visa or came in unlawfully or whatever the 199 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:46.440 situation is, who are now like, Okay, well what the heck? 200 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.840 Like I had this green light basically to come in 201 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.480 for four years. Now, all of a sudden, you're telling 202 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:56.919 me we're doing a mass deportation, ultimate crackdown, Like there's 203 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.919 that is I guess to me, that's like understandable to me, 204 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.480 Like this is ridiculous. Yes, And I guess you know, 205 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.720 I don't know. I don't know if there's much good 206 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:11.679 in assigning the blame there to whatever extent I would. 207 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:12.919 I guess I would put it at the feet of 208 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:17.120 the Biden administration. But is that a thing that you're 209 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.120 sort of seeing? Oh? 210 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:21.480 Absolutely, And it's that yo yo of going back and forth. 211 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:24.480 That's just maddening for all of us, and maddening and 212 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:29.879 frustrating for the the undocumented people who have crossed those boards, 213 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.240 who were allowed to cross those borders in gigantic numbers. 214 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:38.360 But even before that, you know, President Barack Obama deported 215 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.080 more people than any president in the history of the state. Yeah, well, 216 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.840 and nobody complained about that. 217 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:44.519 Yeah, it's true. 218 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:48.840 He gets a weird sort of pr pass for some reason, 219 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:50.840 even though he was the deporter in chief. 220 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:56.759 Yes, so, And I've heard the numbers anywhere from eight 221 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:04.000 million to twenty million, right, that are here illegally, And 222 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.039 I like you were kind of getting that. I think 223 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.799 they're here and in a sense they were allowed to 224 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.720 be here. The border was allowed to be in total 225 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:20.080 disarray and personally, and I believe my fellow bishops would 226 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.879 agree with this as well. You know, we acknowledge the 227 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:26.879 chaos and disarray the border and that that needs to 228 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:30.240 be addressed and needs to be fixed. As I said earlier, 229 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.200 countries have the right, in fact the obligation under Catholic 230 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:40.360 teaching to maintain and secure their borders and to establish 231 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.480 the fair and just immigration policies. So yeah, we're not 232 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.320 against that, and we need to restore this sense of 233 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:52.600 security and peace for our citizens in our nation, and 234 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.200 we acknowledge that, justly or unjustly, for the past several years, 235 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.799 people have been freely let into our country. Many of them, yes, 236 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:03.879 seeking a better life in the American dream, but some 237 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:09.840 also legitimate asylum seekers. They haven't been vetted in a 238 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.399 good or proper or even organized way. 239 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.879 We're talking with the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Dices 240 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.159 of Fresno, Bishop Joseph Brennan, and we will be back 241 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.559 with more on the John Girardi Show. We're talking with 242 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.639 the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Dices of Fresno, Bishop 243 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:29.799 Joseph Brennan, and Bishop Brennan. We're talking about all these 244 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:33.720 different immigration issues. I think one thing I wanted to 245 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.320 sort of clarify for local Catholics in Fresno. There's been 246 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:44.879 a lot of discussion about the role that Catholic institutions 247 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:50.039 have played in the context of immigration. Catholic Charities on 248 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.799 a national level has participated in federal government programs for 249 00:15:53.919 --> 00:16:00.879 refugee resettlement, and there's been some accusations on the right, 250 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:07.720 some fair, some less fair, some some pretty fair. But 251 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:13.399 it involves individual, specific local Catholic charities organizations, which you know, 252 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.840 they don't all answer to one single umbrella. Fresno Catholic 253 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:21.039 Charities is a completely different thing from Milwaukee Catholic Charities 254 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.320 or San Antonio Catholic Charities or whatever about these refugee 255 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.480 resettlement programs and whether they're actually facilitating people arriving unlawfully 256 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:36.759 or not, just as a clarification about what our local 257 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:41.840 Fresno Catholic Charities and our local dioceses is or isn't 258 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.559 doing with regards to those kinds of programs. 259 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:45.759 So we're we're not. 260 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.759 There's no participation in the Diocese of Fresno specifically with 261 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.600 these refugee resettlement. 262 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:57.200 No, not, and not on my watch anyway, Okay, if 263 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:02.080 I have anything to say about door to do with it, No, 264 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.359 but continuing the function that Catholic Charities does on a 265 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.759 daily basis anyway, attending to whoever walks through the door, 266 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:13.440 And obviously we don't. We don't ask for about their 267 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:15.640 legal status, you know, any more than we ask about 268 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.480 the legal status of anyone, believe it or not, attending 269 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:24.559 our Catholic schools or or religious ad or walking through 270 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.759 the door of the church on Sunday. No, we're not, 271 00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:32.400 and certainly in my time would never be involved in that. 272 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:37.160 And there are I think some real legal and even 273 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:42.279 maybe ethical issues involved well, you know, one of the 274 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.759 things we've been in a betting is not what I 275 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:45.480 would be into. 276 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:47.519 Yeah, well, well even like one of the things I've 277 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.799 seen was this got shared around a lot online that 278 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:55.039 there was a specific local Catholic Charities entity. I won't 279 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:58.799 say where, but basically it was providing this like how 280 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.839 to video, like if the immigration enforcement comes to your 281 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:03.839 place of work, you know. 282 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:05.960 Don't say this, and do say this. 283 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.960 If they are asked to identify what country you're from, 284 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:11.759 don't say what country you're from. And I was like, Okay, well, 285 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.759 if you're an immigration attorney, I think that's a legitimate 286 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:16.559 thing to do and be. 287 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:18.519 I think it's legitimate to be, you. 288 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.480 Know, defense counsel for in the context of immigration law. 289 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:26.200 But I guess I don't understand the posture of the 290 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:33.480 Catholic Church effectively doing that as defense counsel more or 291 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.640 less like as opposed to providing defense attorney resources for 292 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:44.799 other kinds of violations of the law. But it seems 293 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:50.440 like is there some sort of I don't not wanting you, 294 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:51.599 you know, if you don't want to get into this, 295 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.559 I understand, but it seems like there's some attitudes among 296 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:03.000 Catholic involved some persons involved, whether it's bishops or individuals 297 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.960 or individual local Catholic charity entities, that are a bit 298 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.119 more in favor of a sort of almost open borders approach, 299 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.400 that any kind of immigration enforcement is bad or wrongful 300 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.920 almost you know, yes, prima facie, yes. 301 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:22.400 Well, it's certainly not my approach, and it's not in 302 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.920 a sense of the official approach of the Catholic Church 303 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:31.920 or California bishops either. Maybe individual exceptions to that, although 304 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:36.240 I haven't heard them, at least not yet, not up 305 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.200 to this state. 306 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.599 Sure, yeah, well, all right, I want to move on 307 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.039 then to sort of some macro questions. You know, you 308 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.079 had mentioned, you know, you're I've because you've mentioned this 309 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:50.839 thing about you know, we're not vetting people who come 310 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:52.960 into church. Catholic charity is not vetting people who are 311 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.799 just asking for help. I've sort of experienced this myself 312 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.079 with our sort of the micro problems and the macro 313 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.039 problems with our clinic that we started out a right 314 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.680 to life we've when we first started, we had this 315 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:11.720 problem of you know, some women who were here unlawfully 316 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.720 with their immigration status wasn't regularized. We're afraid of applying 317 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.839 for medical and basically there was limitations on medical eligibility. 318 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.240 Well that got. 319 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.759 Changed in the last few years. Now everyone's eligible for 320 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.640 medical regardless of immigration status. And on the one hand 321 00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:30.920 of the perspective of well, I'm just here to help 322 00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:35.440 I want to help people, like that's good on the 323 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.359 macro level, though, I'm sort of like, well, is. 324 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.400 This necessarily a good policy? 325 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.000 Like do we should we actually be incentivizing people to 326 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.160 come here with generous social wealth, knowing that if you 327 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:50.960 come here, even if you come here legally, you're gonna 328 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.839 have all these generous social welfare programs. 329 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640 And I feel like. 330 00:20:55.039 --> 00:21:00.359 That's a big tension dynamic that maybe the church is 331 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:06.079 recognizing or could be recognizing that here's this individual in 332 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:09.000 front of us in need. We want to help them, 333 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.599 we want and maybe we want the government to help them. 334 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.119 But at the same time, is that having a bad 335 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.400 macro effect? Are there dynamics like that that you've sort 336 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:19.720 of seen or thought about? 337 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.640 Well, I think on the macro level, the societal level 338 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:29.160 and international level, the incentive is there all the time, 339 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.039 and who wouldn't want to come to this great country 340 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:36.559 of ours to improve their life? But then there's the 341 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:39.400 other macro issue, and we've talked a little bit about 342 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:40.039 it already. 343 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.960 Well, basically my thought is it's almost unfair to be 344 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.359 placing at the feet of say the Catholic Church or 345 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:54.920 of charitable organizations like you just want more illegal immigrants here. 346 00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.680 You are just doing all this stuff for immigrants, whether. 347 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:01.000 That's the perception of Catholic charities helping out immigrate, whatever, 348 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:02.640 that's all you care about. 349 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.799 It shouldn't. It's not our fault in a sense that 350 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.559 our work of helping people who are poor is downstream 351 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:16.920 of public policy decisions over which we don't have ultimate responsibilities, 352 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.039 you know. And so we're presented with these problems of 353 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.279 people who are poor who need help, and we're going 354 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:25.240 to help them. And you know, would we prefer a 355 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:28.079 better legal set up, better world, of course, But. 356 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:31.839 I think the Catholic Church is taking a bit more 357 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:34.319 crap over this than it deserves. 358 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:36.440 Well, yes, and it's what do you do with the 359 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.680 Obria clinic? As you just stated a minute ago, there 360 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.160 are these macro concerns that bother us, that tweak our 361 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.640 own sense of justice and what's right and fair. And 362 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.680 then there's the pregnant woman in front of us. That 363 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.240 needs some care, the hungry person that walks through the 364 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.960 doors of Catholic charities and maybe needs some clothing too. 365 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.279 So yeah, yeah, we're attentive to the person in front 366 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.559 of us as the brother and sister in Christ and 367 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:12.200 the one in need, and we we are and we must, 368 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:18.119 all of us, you know, pursue really good immigration policies. 369 00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.839 Yeah, yeah, right, all right, Well, Bishop Brennan, and I 370 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.160 really appreciate having you on the show, and you know, 371 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.839 I appreciate your advocacy always for those in need, whether 372 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:33.039 it's you know, whether it's immigrant communities or the. 373 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.119 Defensive life issue and all those things. So anyway, God blessed, 374 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:37.240 Thank you so much for being on the show. 375 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:37.880 Thank you, John. 376 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:39.720 All Right, we'll be back with more on the John 377 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:40.359 Girardi Show. 378 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:47.079 I want to talk about California's sanctuary state law and 379 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:53.799 more comments by Mayor dire regarding immigration enforcement, immigration raids, 380 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:56.680 et cetera. So I had kind of put Jerry Dyer 381 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:01.359 a little on blast on the show. Dier was talking 382 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.119 about basically how now City of Fresno will absolutely not 383 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.400 cooperate with federal immigration authorities, absolutely not, and that we 384 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:14.039 need to maintain you know, we need to maintain good 385 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.920 relations with the immigrant community, and our law enforcement will 386 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:23.000 have no relation, no relation to a person's immigration status. 387 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.519 And I was trying to figure out why he was 388 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:33.119 being so forceful this way. On the one hand, I mean, 389 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:39.279 there are some limitations under California state law for what 390 00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:45.720 local police can do as far as cooperation with federal 391 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.920 immigration authorities. I recognize that the Fresno PD is not 392 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.000 just a free floating actor. It is subject to California 393 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:57.559 state laws. State laws that are, you know, I think unwise. 394 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:02.359 I don't see why we should have any limitation on 395 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:08.359 local police cooperating with federal immigration authorities. You know, if 396 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:13.200 they've they're arresting someone for crimes and the person's not 397 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.799 in the country lawfully, I think it makes complete sense 398 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.799 for local law enforcement to let ice know, hey, we 399 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:26.680 got one and because you're specifically talking about people that 400 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:34.200 the police are arresting. So I don't understand why Dyer 401 00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:38.640