Speaker 1: Hello, It is Ryan and I was on a flight
Speaker 1: the other day playing one of my favorite social spin
Speaker 1: slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at
Speaker 1: the person sitting next to me, and you know what
Speaker 1: they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence,
Speaker 1: I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa
Speaker 1: Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can
Speaker 1: play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet.
Speaker 1: So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to
Speaker 1: claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com
Speaker 1: and live the Chumba Lane.
Speaker 2: No, we're necessary void where everybody lost in terms of
Speaker 2: conditions of eating.
Speaker 3: Plus with the Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky
Speaker 3: just about anywhere.
Speaker 4: It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the
Speaker 4: weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a
Speaker 4: while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's
Speaker 4: just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest
Speaker 4: you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and
Speaker 4: start getting lucky.
Speaker 3: Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you
Speaker 3: feeling lucky?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 3: Purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. Terms
Speaker 3: and conditions apply. See website for dlop to Canadian.
Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 6: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening. Nearly one hundred years since his death, Bat
Speaker 7: Masterson still holds great influence. Remembered by many for his
Speaker 7: adventures in America's Old West. Buffalo hunter, scout, gunfighter, and
Speaker 7: even lawman as Dodge City sheriff in twentieth century New
Speaker 7: York City, became a sportswriter. However, Masterson left a legacy
Speaker 7: that is much more intricate. Masterson always stood up for
Speaker 7: the underdog, and his real legacy was how he fought
Speaker 7: for them. After the days of the Old West were over,
Speaker 7: he laid down his gun and picked up his pen.
Speaker 7: So great was his writing that he vastly respected. He
Speaker 7: was vastly respected for his opinions on many topics of
Speaker 7: the day, including crime, politics, and war. But bat Masterson
Speaker 7: had a secret, one that he kept well hidden his
Speaker 7: entire life, for if known, he and all those he
Speaker 7: cared about would be ruined, his reputation and all that
Speaker 7: he worked for in his life would be in tatters.
Speaker 7: The book that were featuring this evening is Bat Masterson,
Speaker 7: The First Dreamer, with my special guests, journalist and author
Speaker 7: Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, Read Rosen.
Speaker 5: Dan it is. It is a huge pleasure to be
Speaker 5: here talking to you about this book. It's a huge pleasure.
Speaker 7: Well, thank you how much. Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting you.
Speaker 7: It's an absolute pleasure to have you on and the
Speaker 7: first interview you've done about this book. So I feel
Speaker 7: privileged to have you on talking about this book again.
Speaker 7: As I mentioned before, so many parallels to today's political situation.
Speaker 7: But bat Masterson, you've brought to life. Tell our audience
Speaker 7: read why how important this book bat Masterson is to you?
Speaker 7: How long have you wanted to write this book? Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 5: Oh boy, I knew you were going to ask that,
Speaker 5: and I have wanted to a boy, give me a second.
Speaker 5: I've wanted to write this book for over forty years,
Speaker 5: and gee, I guess I'm dating myself. But what happened
Speaker 5: was when I was when I was a child, I
Speaker 5: watched the TV series and it was the late fifties
Speaker 5: and I was a child, Dan, but I was a
Speaker 5: huge fan of westerns TV westerns, which were very They
Speaker 5: were the most popular genre at that point. This is
Speaker 5: before reality shows. And there was a show called Bat
Speaker 5: Masterson and I got into watching it, and at the
Speaker 5: very end of the show, Dan, there was the final
Speaker 5: title card that said based on the book by Richard O'Connor.
Speaker 5: And I'm a kid, and I'm sitting there and going,
Speaker 5: wait a second, the guy's real. I couldn't believe it,
Speaker 5: you know, And and then and then and then I went, gee,
Speaker 5: that's something. And then in the nineteen seventies, I was
Speaker 5: still interested and I started doing some research and I
Speaker 5: find out the guy comes to New York City and
Speaker 5: becomes a reporter. But even more than that, he he
Speaker 5: what he becomes best known for is a reporter, though
Speaker 5: becomes here as a sports writer. He writes a big
Speaker 5: story about what became known as the First Trial of
Speaker 5: the Century nineteen o six, and this was it was
Speaker 5: a murder case. Murder Yeah, well it depending upon who
Speaker 5: you talk to and where a guy gets gets a
Speaker 5: girl pregnant and then drowns her because he doesn't want
Speaker 5: to have her kid, suppose it, or want her to
Speaker 5: have a kid supposedly. Okay, it becomes the basis of
Speaker 5: Rice is an American tragedy. Uh, the film a place
Speaker 5: in the song of Montgomery Cliff and Liz Taylor. And
Speaker 5: but but the truth gets lost, okay, which is that
Speaker 5: this was the most sensational murder case in the history
Speaker 5: of New York and the guy that covered it for
Speaker 5: his newspaper was Bat Masterson. And he solves it. And
Speaker 5: that's what got me, you know, the fact that he
Speaker 5: solved it. Dan and he and and and and he
Speaker 5: here was a guy that already worked on quite a
Speaker 5: few murdicases.
Speaker 7: Right, take us back as you do, because we're going
Speaker 7: to hold back this secret. But tell us it won't
Speaker 7: be long before that's revealed. But let's let's find out
Speaker 7: about his back crown, about his mother and his father
Speaker 7: and his life growing up. And tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about Thomas and his wife Catherine and their life,
Speaker 7: about where they came from, originally and where they were
Speaker 7: from before they moved to Missouri.
Speaker 5: Tell us about well, I'll tell you about it. But
Speaker 5: I also have to say to everybody listening today that
Speaker 5: I don't you know, I believe in you can call
Speaker 5: it faith, you can call it God. It's no accident
Speaker 5: that you're interviewing me about this because you're a Canadian.
Speaker 5: Well so is bat Masterson. And that was the point.
Speaker 5: Bat Masterson was what today we call a dreamer. He
Speaker 5: came to America from Canada as a child in the
Speaker 5: early eighteen sixties and the he uh in those days, uh,
Speaker 5: it was legal, it was. It really was an open border, Okay,
Speaker 5: but but it all changed. And that was what was
Speaker 5: so fascinating to me. Dan about this from I don't
Speaker 5: even think it. I could. I guess I could say
Speaker 5: a political point of view. But see today in America,
Speaker 5: and I'm sure you know you you got you see
Speaker 5: if you see this, they're always writing about dreamers from
Speaker 5: the southern border, and our president is against them. Well,
Speaker 5: when I was writing this book, I said, you know something,
Speaker 5: I got a choice here, Okay, I can either get
Speaker 5: political or I can report the facts. And I thought
Speaker 5: about you, and I said boys friend. If you don't
Speaker 5: report the facts, Dane will give you a hard time.
Speaker 5: So I I so I did my reporting, and I
Speaker 5: was shocked, Okay, I was shocked to find out how
Speaker 5: many presidents we've had, going back to Miller Fillmore, we're
Speaker 5: looking in eighteen fifties, who who were today? They were nationalists, nativists, Okay,
Speaker 5: And and and Masterson's family his mother was from was
Speaker 5: from Ireland, his father was his father's family came from Ireland,
Speaker 5: but he was a Native Canadian in Quebec Province. I
Speaker 5: gotta be careful how I pronounced it. And uh. And they,
Speaker 5: like many individuals around the world from then until now,
Speaker 5: looked at our country as a place to go and
Speaker 5: find a new life. And so they moved into upstate
Speaker 5: New York. And but for whatever reason, it didn't work
Speaker 5: for them, and they kept they kept tuning. With a
Speaker 5: lot of people did. They went west, and literally west.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, it's pretty far west to go
Speaker 5: from from uh, you know, go from New York to Kansas,
Speaker 5: especially in those days. But they did it. And that's
Speaker 5: of course where Masterson grew up in his reputation was developed.
Speaker 7: You talk about the how they got to this this
Speaker 7: journey to the west into Missouri finally, and you say
Speaker 7: it was a dangerous time as well, and there was
Speaker 7: still games roaming the state supporting one side or the
Speaker 7: other from the Civil War, including Jesse and Frank James.
Speaker 7: They start robbing banks. And in eighteen seventy, you talk
Speaker 7: about the census in eighteen seventy, what did what did
Speaker 7: they have to say to the census takers at that
Speaker 7: time in eighteen seventy We'll see how that changes.
Speaker 5: Well, that's the fact. Okay, That's where it gets very
Speaker 5: interesting when you compare it to what's happening in this
Speaker 5: country today. Okay, what happened was is when is when
Speaker 5: masterson family was his father was questioned about, you know,
Speaker 5: by the census in those days, and I believe this,
Speaker 5: this went up until the nineteen sixties. You got a
Speaker 5: question on the census about where he came from, and
Speaker 5: his father said the truth that they came from Canada.
Speaker 5: Because in those at that point it was not illegal.
Speaker 5: That changed because when I say was not a legal
Speaker 5: to come from Canada, what I mean was they never
Speaker 5: applied for citizenship. They just walked across the word, you.
Speaker 7: Know, mhm.
Speaker 5: And and that old but that all changed and and
Speaker 5: and and that. Again, it was so shocking to me
Speaker 5: because you know, one of you know, you're finding out
Speaker 5: stuff they didn't teach in high school, you know. But
Speaker 5: I got to tell you, thank god I had. I
Speaker 5: had seven murders to work, seven murder uh well that
Speaker 5: not murder. Yeah, seven momicides that Matterson was involved in,
Speaker 5: including four that he was responsible for. And that was
Speaker 5: fascinating to be able to do, to go in beach with,
Speaker 5: you know, like, you're right, I'm writing about what's happening politically,
Speaker 5: et cetera, for for for people. But and then at
Speaker 5: that point, you know, you know, he's involved in a
Speaker 5: murder case, you know. And that's what really got to me,
Speaker 5: which is I had no way, you know, because again
Speaker 5: this is the real guy, not the guy from TV,
Speaker 5: you know, and that's very important. Even though though this
Speaker 5: show was based on a book, they fictionalized most of that,
Speaker 5: you know. The only thing they didn't fictionalize was the portrayal.
Speaker 5: Betrayal was extremely accurate.
Speaker 7: Now you write that June sixth, eighteen seventy one, Thomas
Speaker 7: Masterson bought an eighty acre farm in Sedgwick County, Kansas.
Speaker 7: And this is about fourteen miles northeast of Wichita, and
Speaker 7: that was a burgeoning Kansas cattle town at that time.
Speaker 7: Bartholomew or bat was eighteen at that time, you say,
Speaker 7: it was about five to nine, muscular, good looking guy.
Speaker 7: How did he acquire his education? This is what I
Speaker 7: thought was fascinating. Where did he get educated through?
Speaker 5: As you write, well, again, that's what's so that's one
Speaker 5: that's really fascinating. He essentially was self educated. Now that
Speaker 5: is wherever whenever his parents were traveling, you know, earlier
Speaker 5: than that, you know, when he when he was let's
Speaker 5: say ten twelve, whatever, you know, you would you would
Speaker 5: expect that they would and there's no record of this,
Speaker 5: but you would expect that they would enroll in a
Speaker 5: local school, whether they were living in Missouri or Illinois,
Speaker 5: because they lived in all these places. But what happened was,
Speaker 5: in some way, this guy uh decided to really educate
Speaker 5: himself and he became a vociferous reader. And and again
Speaker 5: it's it's it's incredible. The guy wound up having an
Speaker 5: incredible talent as a writer. And I'm not just saying that.
Speaker 5: I mean, I gotta tell you one I went down
Speaker 5: to the I had to go down to the New
Speaker 5: York Public Library on forty second Street in Manhattan to
Speaker 5: find his columns. Dan, you know, because you know, I
Speaker 5: find a guy's columns and I'm reading and this is
Speaker 5: the first time I've been able to read his columns.
Speaker 5: Blew me away. I couldn't believe how talented he was
Speaker 5: as a writer. And also the fact that when he
Speaker 5: reported on Jack Johnson, who was the first African he
Speaker 5: was first black heavyweight champ of the world, well everybody
Speaker 5: else was wrote nay, nasty things about him, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean, you know, racial epithets. Not that Masterson.
Speaker 5: He would describe Jack Johnson as Johnson or the Negro
Speaker 5: one of the two. That was it. And so I
Speaker 5: was that blew me way. And then when you start
Speaker 5: going a little bit further you find out how he
Speaker 5: stood up for people. You know, that part of it
Speaker 5: is really something. You know, how he stood up for people.
Speaker 7: Let's get back to his beginnings though, when you talk
Speaker 7: about he's eighteen years old, and this is again super
Speaker 7: interesting in terms of this guy's buried background, what he
Speaker 7: ends up doing in his entire life. You say he
Speaker 7: ends up being a sports writer. It seems unlikely when
Speaker 7: you talk about this kind of beginning. You talk about
Speaker 7: he was a terrific shot. So what was a job
Speaker 7: that he and his brothers found that they could do
Speaker 7: and do well?
Speaker 5: Well, what happened was the boy you're right, and yeah,
Speaker 5: what happened was in those days you have yet heard
Speaker 5: of buffalo growing across flames at the United States, And
Speaker 5: they decided to become buffle hunter. And uh, there was
Speaker 5: nothing unusual about that in those days, especially considering that
Speaker 5: they were uh immigrants, because you know, there's there's not
Speaker 5: much much much difference between then and now, you know,
Speaker 5: a lot, you know, in terms of immigrants taking jobs
Speaker 5: that a lot of people don't want to take, you know,
Speaker 5: who've been here for a while, you know, So that
Speaker 5: they became he became a buffalo hunter. He had to
Speaker 5: skin the animals, and he did all this, all this
Speaker 5: work with his brother, mostly with his brother Ed, sometimes
Speaker 5: his brother Jim as well. But what happened was.
Speaker 1: It is Ryan here, and I have a question for you.
Speaker 1: What do you do when you win? Like are you
Speaker 1: a fist pumper, a wooer, a handclap or a high fiver?
Speaker 1: I kind of like the High five. But if you
Speaker 1: want to hone in on those winning moves, check out
Speaker 1: Chumback Casino. At chumbacasino dot com. Choose from hundreds of
Speaker 1: social casino style games for yours to redeem serious cash prizes.
Speaker 1: There are new game releases weekly, plus free daily bonuses,
Speaker 1: So don't wait. Start having the most fun ever At
Speaker 1: Shumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 2: Noever necessary dalpod where every if I lost et terms
Speaker 2: conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 4: gotten lucky?
Speaker 5: Lucky?
Speaker 3: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
Speaker 3: dentist's office more than months.
Speaker 5: Actually do I have to say? Yes?
Speaker 4: You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? Really yes,
Speaker 1: excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: I never win?
Speaker 6: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 1: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot
Speaker 1: com play for free right now?
Speaker 4: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 2: We just necessary foid where my long eighteen plus terms
Speaker 2: and conditions of plus you say details.
Speaker 5: It was a terrific shot. He again, it was just
Speaker 5: the talent and so that as a result of that,
Speaker 5: he actually that's how he gets his nickname. Okay, this
Speaker 5: is real, as you said, his real name is William Bartholomew.
Speaker 5: But what happens is there had been a famous punter
Speaker 5: who his name was Old Bat. And what happened was
Speaker 5: Masterson has such a tremendous eye a hunter of people
Speaker 5: started calling him back, and from that point onward he
Speaker 5: used and he used the name. And of course he
Speaker 5: did the other thing, which is he changed his middle
Speaker 5: name from uh Bartholomew to Barclay and and so now
Speaker 5: he's he's William Barclay Bat Masters, which again is like
Speaker 5: a what a lot of immigrants do, they reinvent themselves.
Speaker 5: That's exactly what he did. Mm hmm.
Speaker 7: You say at the time he was he'd been shooting
Speaker 7: buffalo for a few years. But Masterson became a lifelong
Speaker 7: friend of a horse thief who would escaped jail and
Speaker 7: then on west to establish a new identity. This is
Speaker 7: a central figure in this incredible story of Bat Masterson,
Speaker 7: who is this lifelong friend It becomes established as a
Speaker 7: new identity.
Speaker 5: Wyatter, it with Wider. He becomes friends with Wyatter, beneats
Speaker 5: him as a Buffalo, and again I was very surprised,
Speaker 5: you know. I you know, again, like most people, I believe,
Speaker 5: you know, like the TV series. We had a TV
Speaker 5: series called The Life and Legend of Wyat and I
Speaker 5: believed it. And of course, uh, not too long ago.
Speaker 5: Oh you know, in the middle nineties, Kurt Russell did
Speaker 5: a Tombstone and while a lot of that will Tombstone
Speaker 5: was fairly accurate, okay in terms of what happened, uh,
Speaker 5: and also very accurate in terms of Earth's personality because
Speaker 5: he's a killer in that thing. But that's not the
Speaker 5: way that people have accepted Wyatt. They look at him
Speaker 5: as being the same as Masterson, a law officer, et cetera,
Speaker 5: et cetera. But it's a different story. But yeah, he
Speaker 5: was his good buddy, you know. And that was what's
Speaker 5: so interesting also about it. It is like because of
Speaker 5: this this dotch City place, it's like everybody wound up
Speaker 5: there one way or the other. You know, you mentioned
Speaker 5: two of the other guys that wound up there, Frank
Speaker 5: and Jesse James. I mean, I cracked up when I
Speaker 5: was writing. It's a small scene, but I cracked up
Speaker 5: when Masterson has to confront ranked in Jesse. James, Oh,
Speaker 5: I just laughed at that. You know, it's just that
Speaker 5: it's all of these people. You know that he knew
Speaker 5: and he knew everybody. That's the other thing, you know,
Speaker 5: because of his celebrity status. Man, that guy knew Masterson
Speaker 5: knew it.
Speaker 7: You write in the book, which I find fascinating too,
Speaker 7: is that all of these things are interconnected. This buffalo
Speaker 7: hunt and we're talking about incredible numbers of buffalo killed
Speaker 7: every day and skinned and their carcasses left on the prairie.
Speaker 7: As you say, and again what you mentioned was that
Speaker 7: it was the immigrant. It wasn't a great job. These
Speaker 7: people were called stinkers because they stunk from doing this job.
Speaker 7: The idea that also politically, there was a reason for
Speaker 7: this buffalo hunt and these buffalo hunters. What was the
Speaker 7: reason behind this incredible decimation of the buffalo on the plaines?
Speaker 5: Oh boy, well, I'll explain it. Our government had decided
Speaker 5: that they wanted to get rid of the Indians, and
Speaker 5: the way they were going to get rid of the
Speaker 5: Indians was to destroy their source of food and clothing,
Speaker 5: which is the buffalo. So the idea is kill the buffalo,
Speaker 5: and eventually the Indians will will you know, will they'll
Speaker 5: leave or whatever. I don't know what they thought they
Speaker 5: were gonna do, you know, I don't know what they
Speaker 5: thought they were gonna do. But they figured that that
Speaker 5: would get rid of them in one way or the other.
Speaker 5: Maybe they thought they started at that. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 5: they probably were thinking about that. I mean, they were
Speaker 5: really The cruelty is incredible, the cruelty that our government
Speaker 5: engaged in. But again, this is just you know, say,
Speaker 5: it's so part of history, I guess, right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about Dodge City and the again the
Speaker 7: talk about the reservation system as well. I don't know,
Speaker 7: I mean, maybe a lot of people know this, but
Speaker 7: I mean what's always fascinating is these policies and what
Speaker 7: they did with the the tribes that were around this
Speaker 7: Dodge City, for example. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: the government's efforts to be able to rain these people
Speaker 7: in on reserves and what was the alternative if they
Speaker 7: left the reserve?
Speaker 5: Oh well, oh boy, oh boy? Uh yeah, well, what
Speaker 5: if the if the Indians left the reservation for any reason,
Speaker 5: they were considered federal fugitives and they would they would
Speaker 5: be tracked down and either captured or shot. That's the
Speaker 5: way that that was the that our government was treating
Speaker 5: the indigenous people of this nation.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 5: And where it gets interesting for Masterson is that not
Speaker 5: only does he wind up as a buffalo hunter, of course,
Speaker 5: but later on becomes what they called an Indian fighter.
Speaker 7: He's also what's considered a good scout as well, and
Speaker 7: also they understand his prowess with a rifle. He later
Speaker 7: says though that he doesn't actually believe I got we're
Speaker 7: getting ahead of ourselves, but he doesn't actually believe he
Speaker 7: he shot any Indians whatsoever.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was funny at one point where he was
Speaker 5: asked fat hunter oath in a simple case in New
Speaker 5: York City, and he said he was being at how
Speaker 5: many Indians he shot? And he went, well, I don't
Speaker 5: know that, don't don't don't blame me if I didn't
Speaker 5: shoot any That's basically what the guy said, you know,
Speaker 5: because he was in a situation where he was being
Speaker 5: attacked and he was with buffalo hunters and they opened firing,
Speaker 5: and sure it was hard to tell what happened. A
Speaker 5: good point, actually, it's a very good point.
Speaker 7: How does bat get to this situation where he is
Speaker 7: recognized as a potential lawman and tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit more about Dodge City and also about his other cohorts.
Speaker 7: These famous legends of the West also seem to transform
Speaker 7: themselves into lawman. Tell us about this process that does
Speaker 7: this well and the new job for bat Masterson.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good really, that's a good question.
Speaker 5: What happens is he he has by the time he
Speaker 5: gets to Dodge City. And again we're talking about a
Speaker 5: very young man in his early twenties. He's already been
Speaker 5: an Indian fighter and a buffalo hunter, which means he's
Speaker 5: used to using a gun, but he's never shot a man.
Speaker 5: Well that's actually, that's not quite true. He did. He
Speaker 5: shot his first man in uh when he when he
Speaker 5: was a buffalo hunter who was trying to who's he
Speaker 5: shot his first man who was uh shot who shot
Speaker 5: him and left him with with with a limp, which
Speaker 5: is where the game comes in. But when he comes
Speaker 5: to Dodge City, he's able to change. And I believe
Speaker 5: it's because he's able. He's able to change his career path.
Speaker 5: And I think he's able to change it because of
Speaker 5: the fact that he has a very strong set of
Speaker 5: values and he decides to get into a law enforcement
Speaker 5: His friend erp helps him do it, and eventually he
Speaker 5: becomes a politician and runs through office. You know, people
Speaker 5: don't necessarily think of it that way, but when you
Speaker 5: run for sheriff, you're a politician. You know you're running
Speaker 5: for office. And while he was a trific sheriff, he
Speaker 5: was a lousy politician. He was very bad at politician.
Speaker 7: You write about bat meeting Mollie, Oh gosh, he's twenty
Speaker 7: two at the time, she's younger, and this is January
Speaker 7: eighteen seventy six. They're unlikely couple. But tell us where
Speaker 7: they meet and what happens with the relationship, and before
Speaker 7: we introduce this corporal case.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, when they what happened. You know what happens
Speaker 5: is Masterson gets involved with it's a it's a it's
Speaker 5: a it's a new settlement called high Town, and he
Speaker 5: gets when he's when he's there, he winds up at
Speaker 5: the gaming tables, you know, just like in the movies, folks,
Speaker 5: and he's a gambler and there's a girl there. And
Speaker 5: it's unclear whether Molly was a prostitute or not, but
Speaker 5: she was a quote unquote dance hole girl. She worked
Speaker 5: in a local dance hole. And but they they they
Speaker 5: fall in love. That part is is is very clear.
Speaker 5: And uh they wind up going into this dance hole,
Speaker 5: and uh, should I get the King?
Speaker 7: Sure a little bit?
Speaker 5: Sure, Well okay, well what happens is this is man,
Speaker 5: it's really something they knt gets drunk. King King is
Speaker 5: playing poker with Masterson doesn't like him for whatever reason. Uh,
Speaker 5: and and and he sees he's friendly with with with
Speaker 5: this woman, and he follows them into the dance hole,
Speaker 5: takes out his gun and goes bang. Masterson goes down
Speaker 5: with a bullet through uh the intestines and that's the one. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's intestines and that's the one that leaves him with
Speaker 5: the limp. But anyway, second time the guy's Masterson, he
Speaker 5: doesn't get a chance to shoot yet. He's on the
Speaker 5: floor and the guy decides to shoot again, and Molly
Speaker 5: throws herself in front of the bullet. I mean, it's
Speaker 5: a movie image. And that's when Masterson is able to
Speaker 5: get his gun hand free and he shoots this guy
Speaker 5: Sergeant Melvin A King and will eventually die. And the
Speaker 5: guy was an army gun, so it was but it was.
Speaker 5: It was a very It was the first time Masterson
Speaker 5: shoots another human being. And I think what's interesting about it,
Speaker 5: Dan is we're talking, is as opposed to later in
Speaker 5: his career, he doesn't shoot the guy that quickly. And
Speaker 5: I think the reason he didn't is because he never
Speaker 5: shot a man. It's a completely different situation shooting a
Speaker 5: human being from shooting an animal. But he always always
Speaker 5: got that. He always got that, and he always valued
Speaker 5: human lives.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you right too. What's interesting is that at the
Speaker 7: time there was so much fear of once they had
Speaker 7: surgery there there was no hygiene employed whatsoever, so people
Speaker 7: died as a result of the operation. Rather than saving
Speaker 7: their lives. In this particular case, they couldn't operate on him.
Speaker 7: And you say that saved his life even though he
Speaker 7: was seriously wounded. He all he ended up with was
Speaker 7: this obvious limp that he had forever and used a
Speaker 7: cane occasionally, which came to andy, right.
Speaker 5: And and of course when I was writing about, you know,
Speaker 5: the lack of sepsis at that point, I reminded me
Speaker 5: of Garfield, who I you know, my Garfield book which
Speaker 5: I spoke to you about, because the same situation, the
Speaker 5: same situation. It's it's earlier, but it's it's the same situation.
Speaker 5: I mean, in those days, if somebody you know, operating
Speaker 5: on you, would you had a pretty good chance of
Speaker 5: dying from the guy he's operating on you because they
Speaker 5: didn't wash their hands. So he was he was very
Speaker 5: very very very lucky that But yeah, I mean, you know, now,
Speaker 5: as she's saying it, I'm thinking, wow, he really lucked out.
Speaker 7: A year before this happens, a year before bart Bat
Speaker 7: meets Mollie, before she dies, there's the Payeact. So we're
Speaker 7: going back a little bit. This is the first time
Speaker 7: you write this is President Ulysses Grant. This is the
Speaker 7: first immigration law to prohibit specific groups of immigrants the
Speaker 7: government claimed as undesirables. Who were those most people? And
Speaker 7: we will talk about the further immigration acts that are
Speaker 7: past and their impact and what that has to say
Speaker 7: about it, and what does he do? Who did they
Speaker 7: ban first?
Speaker 5: The Chinese?
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 5: I mean it was basically what you see happening is racism,
Speaker 5: you know, racism, and but also what was interesting about
Speaker 5: it was the why of it, the why of it
Speaker 5: that I didn't realize that there are a lot of
Speaker 5: Chinese immigrants that were taking jobs from people on the
Speaker 5: West Coast. So the West Coasters didn't want those people here,
Speaker 5: you know, they want they didn't want him here, So
Speaker 5: it was to be a lot easier to just ban him.
Speaker 5: But but yeah, yeah, and you know, by the way,
Speaker 5: were earlier when we were talking about the Mansterstons and
Speaker 5: where it came from, and the fact that they were
Speaker 5: Irish Catholics. Well, Catholic school also had a hard time
Speaker 5: in the United States for a lot of years. You know,
Speaker 5: we we unfortunately, we have this history.
Speaker 6: Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
Speaker 4: I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.
Speaker 6: With family, canolis and spins mean everything.
Speaker 2: Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.
Speaker 4: Introducing the Godfather at Champa Casino dot com. Test your
Speaker 4: luck in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot.
Speaker 2: Someday I will call upon you to do a service
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 6: Play the Godfather now at Champa Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the.
Speaker 2: Family vdW group. Now pech is necessary. I believe we're
Speaker 2: prebited by loss. He terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 1: Hello, it is Ryan and We could all use an
Speaker 1: extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to
Speaker 1: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 1: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 1: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 1: Chumpback Casino has all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 1: that you can play for free, anytime anywhere, with daily bonuses.
Speaker 1: That's your brighten your day, Lowe, actually a lot, so
Speaker 1: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 1: Casino dot com.
Speaker 2: Necessary I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 7: You talk about the wild Bill Hiccock again, another legend,
Speaker 7: and and the poker game where we get the idea
Speaker 7: of the dead man's hand. What happens? Tell us about
Speaker 7: this little story about wild Bill.
Speaker 5: That's the last thing I expected you to ask me,
Speaker 5: But that's cool. What happens is this, This is dead
Speaker 5: his Deadwood, South Dakota, and wild Bill Hitcock is a
Speaker 5: former Pony Express writer. He's a former scout also like Masterson,
Speaker 5: and he becomes a gambler and which is what a
Speaker 5: lot of these guys did. And and he's sitting at
Speaker 5: a table with a guy whose name was Broken Nose
Speaker 5: Jack McColl. And he says something to McColl that McCole
Speaker 5: doesn't like. And what happens is McCole gets up, leaves
Speaker 5: and but Hitcock. Unlike in the movies, he's not sitting
Speaker 5: with his back to the wall. He's like, you know,
Speaker 5: in the middle of the room. And this guy, this
Speaker 5: guy McColl comes up to him and shoots him and
Speaker 5: and and Hitcock falls over and it's poker hand comes
Speaker 5: out and it's a pokerhand of aces and eights. The
Speaker 5: dead Man San that's why, that's how it became known
Speaker 5: as the dead Man. Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it. You know,
Speaker 5: these things happen, and you know, here we're talking about
Speaker 5: something you know in the eighteen I guess sixties, you know,
Speaker 5: and here we are today talking about it.
Speaker 7: You right, that shortly after Hickock's murder, Wyatt and his
Speaker 7: brothers left Dodge City for Deadwood to make some money. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and they stopped off at Sydney, Nebraska. This is a
Speaker 7: September eighteen seventy six, and Wyatt ran into his old
Speaker 7: friend Bat and Wyatt was an assistant city Marshal of
Speaker 7: Dodge City, talk about a reinventing yourself, Ford County, Kansas,
Speaker 7: and he said, he said to Bat, it pays a
Speaker 7: lot better than buffalo hunting. And there weren't really many
Speaker 7: buffalo left anyway. So so tell us about this what
Speaker 7: he makes him a deputy and so what are some
Speaker 7: of the things that happened shortly after in their duty
Speaker 7: in Dodge City.
Speaker 5: Well, what happens is, Yeah, what happens is Masterson goes
Speaker 5: to Dodge City and he still has his cane. At
Speaker 5: that point, he's still using the cane, and he becomes
Speaker 5: known for using the cane to stop up strepperous bad
Speaker 5: uh bad, you know, bad guys. There's a thing called buffaloing,
Speaker 5: which is when somebody takes a six gun and puts
Speaker 5: it on your head, and that became very good at
Speaker 5: that as opposed to shooting the person, Masterson preferred using
Speaker 5: the cane. But while while he's in Dodge City, Uh,
Speaker 5: he and are getting Wow, they involved in quite a
Speaker 5: few situations where they've got to take their gun out
Speaker 5: and they've got to track down bad guys and stuff
Speaker 5: like that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about his brothers too. Masterson's brothers, Ed
Speaker 7: and Jim, and they follow him into law enforcement as well.
Speaker 5: Yes, oh boy, yes. And it's interesting because Jim is younger.
Speaker 5: Ed is the oldest brother, and they follow him into
Speaker 5: law enforcement. And Ed has a different kind of personality
Speaker 5: from Masterson. Ed is a much more of a oh,
Speaker 5: I don't know if the gregarious sort.
Speaker 7: He he he.
Speaker 5: Doesn't have the same level of oh, you know, the
Speaker 5: he doesn't seem as serious about it being being being
Speaker 5: a cop as Bad and that actually proves to be
Speaker 5: a problem. And go on, Well, what happens is Ed
Speaker 5: tries to stop Ed is one of Bad's deputies, and
Speaker 5: he tries to stop some guys who are drunk. They
Speaker 5: have to have a lawn in Dodge City, which is
Speaker 5: you're not allowed to carry a handgun beyond a certain point.
Speaker 5: And what happens is these two guys who are drovers
Speaker 5: from Texas, they get drunk, which US never goes with guns.
Speaker 5: Not thinkers changed that way. And what happens is it
Speaker 5: tries to disarm these two, these these guys, and instead
Speaker 5: one of them turns the gun on him and shoots
Speaker 5: him and sets his shirt on fire from the muzzle blast,
Speaker 5: and it just and it happens purely by coincidence that
Speaker 5: Masterson at that point is approaching the saloon with his
Speaker 5: occurag and so he actually sees his brother go down,
Speaker 5: and he takes out his gun and he shoots Stead
Speaker 5: the two guys that had shot his brother. And I mean,
Speaker 5: it's well, what's again, What's what's fascinating about it is
Speaker 5: there were a couple of other individuals that hung out
Speaker 5: with the two bad guys, the two pillars of Ed Masterson,
Speaker 5: and later on Mascisson arrests them, and he's in a
Speaker 5: situation where he could easily have shot these guys. And
Speaker 5: people would have said, that's fine because his brother Ed
Speaker 5: was very well liked, and so is Masterson. But he
Speaker 5: didn't do it. He did the right thing. You let
Speaker 5: him go because there was no evidence they were involved.
Speaker 5: That's pretty interesting, you know, I can tell you right away,
Speaker 5: wide up would never do that.
Speaker 7: You talk about that becoming interested in writing letters to
Speaker 7: the editor, and I guess getting responses. So he thinks,
Speaker 7: why not, why don't I start a newspaper, the Vox
Speaker 7: POPULARI yet in Dodge City eighteen eighty four. Tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about this paper, what it consisted of,
Speaker 7: and what kind of success it enjoyed.
Speaker 5: Well, he does. It's essentially one issue. Okay, so it's
Speaker 5: not successful. But what he learns is he writes. He
Speaker 5: writes a newspaper that rails. Basically, it's editorialized, and it
Speaker 5: rails against various politicians, rails against the local editor that
Speaker 5: doesn't like him. But it really gives me what Masterson
Speaker 5: a background injury. He learns a little bit, not a
Speaker 5: little bit, he learns a lot. And I suppose the
Speaker 5: most important thing not I suppose the most important thing
Speaker 5: is he learns he's a writer. And that's pretty interesting
Speaker 5: because I had the same experience. I didn't know I
Speaker 5: was a writer until I was twenty three. I thought
Speaker 5: everybody could put words on page the way I. You
Speaker 5: need some experience to change it, or you need somebody
Speaker 5: to encourage you. So in the answer says case, he
Speaker 5: starts a newspaper and he finds he really enjoys writing.
Speaker 5: He enjoys writing, and he enjoys it a heck of
Speaker 5: a lot more than being a wallman.
Speaker 7: You talk about the other you write about the other
Speaker 7: things that interest this fascinating guy, bat Masterson is that
Speaker 7: in he heads to Denver and he's interested in gambling.
Speaker 7: There's no gambling in New York State, it's illegal. But
Speaker 7: he's in gambling parlors and we're talking about twenty five
Speaker 7: dealers and up to two hundred players in this Denver's
Speaker 7: Palace theater and gambling parlor. This is where he meets
Speaker 7: Emma Moulton. She was performing there. Tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about this relationship and what happens as a result
Speaker 7: of these two people.
Speaker 5: Well, this, it's that's what's interesting. This is the third No,
Speaker 5: this is the Yeah, this is the this is the
Speaker 5: second big relationship in his life with Emma Moulton and
Speaker 5: Emma Emma, it was a uh, she she juggled Indian clubs.
Speaker 5: She was known as the Queen of clubs. Okay, and
Speaker 5: but she's a she's so she's a performer and they
Speaker 5: meet it and they really do fall in love. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's it's it's it's but she's married. She's married to
Speaker 5: a guy, and so it's going to take a while
Speaker 5: for that to to fade, you know, where she's going
Speaker 5: to divorce the guy. And but while in Denver with
Speaker 5: Emma and doing this, that's really where Masterson gets into
Speaker 5: boxing and I had no idea that these old West lawmen.
Speaker 5: And it wasn't just Masterson. Erp was involved in boxing too.
Speaker 5: They got involved in professional boxing for various reasons. But
Speaker 5: it's and so Denver is the place that he gets
Speaker 5: involved with Emma and he gets involved in boxing, and
Speaker 5: he gets another opportunity to try a column for a
Speaker 5: local paper, which he really digs about boxing.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about it. Almost at the same time
Speaker 7: or in eighteen ninety four, big things happen in government.
Speaker 7: There's the William Henry Harrison president. He favors tariffs, and
Speaker 7: of course his opponent doesn't, but he got Congress to
Speaker 7: pass uh so, and the cleveland was that the person
Speaker 7: that he was versus and didn't I didn't agree with
Speaker 7: the tariffs. Also with the tariffs. Interestingly comes new immigration
Speaker 7: law and you write that this is the first time
Speaker 7: that there are mass deportations in US history. Yes, tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 5: Well, this is what this is. That's that's the part.
Speaker 5: That's just so, you know, it was so fascinating to
Speaker 5: me because of what's happening today and what which What
Speaker 5: I learned was that whatever you know, they always they
Speaker 5: always have a different name for the Immigration Bureau, whatever
Speaker 5: you want to call it, but let's just say the
Speaker 5: immigration Bureau, okay. And what they did was they kept
Speaker 5: tightening up the the uh immigration regulations. Uh. You know what, Dan,
Speaker 5: it's it's ex fact. I was just I'm glat to
Speaker 5: mention that because I mean, I have a friend whose
Speaker 5: daughter is uh is epileptic, and Emma Masterson was epileptic. Well,
Speaker 5: guess what our government decided to ban anybody who had
Speaker 5: epilepsy from coming to this country.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: They did all kinds of stuff like this. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, it's like I'm sitting here, I'm shaking my head.
Speaker 5: It's like, who are these people? You know? You know,
Speaker 5: and you know, I'll tell you something. What's really interesting
Speaker 5: is when when I looked at all these presidents and
Speaker 5: you mentioned Cleveland and so forth. In Masterson's time, of course,
Speaker 5: the guy that stands out is Abraham Lincoln. I mean,
Speaker 5: he spoke out against these people, and I always say,
Speaker 5: the same thing, where are these people today?
Speaker 7: You know?
Speaker 5: But you know, seriously, it's just what our government was
Speaker 5: doing was just awful. I mean just awful. I mean,
Speaker 5: and you know, it's just wow.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about Batt working at New York in
Speaker 7: New York that the Morning Telegraph. Oh and then in
Speaker 7: nineteen oh one, this is another fascinating things. He's good
Speaker 7: friends with. He becomes good friends with Teddy Roosevelt, the
Speaker 7: President of the United States, the youngest president at forty
Speaker 7: three years old. Yes, and he's working with he's working
Speaker 7: with the publisher Alfred Henry Lewis, and who had written
Speaker 7: a lot of books about and articles about the Old
Speaker 7: West himself, particularly the gunfighter legend. So then he wants
Speaker 7: to put a good word in. Tell us about this
Speaker 7: good word Teddy Roosevelt. And the offer that's offered Bat Masterson.
Speaker 5: Wow, oh boy, Okay, Well, what happens is there's an
Speaker 5: opening in the federal government for a the the mark
Speaker 5: to be the marshall of the state of Oklahoma. Well,
Speaker 5: this guy Lewis talks to his buddy tr Teddy Roosevelt says, listen,
Speaker 5: why don't you ask my buddy Masterson to do it.
Speaker 5: He's cool, he'll do it, he's great. And so he
Speaker 5: had so tr asks Masterson to do this, and Masterson
Speaker 5: turns it down. And when I had his turn down,
Speaker 5: I mean the guy turns down the President of the
Speaker 5: United States and he turns it down and I'm reading
Speaker 5: this and I'm going, what's this about? And then somebody, somebody,
Speaker 5: a friend mindset to me, Fred, why don't you check
Speaker 5: and see if the federal marshal has to be confirmed
Speaker 5: by the Senate. Well, that's the case. Masterson knew he
Speaker 5: could never get through the Senate because they find out
Speaker 5: he was an illegal alien, and so he turns TR down,
Speaker 5: at which point tr TR decides to appoint Masterson Deputy
Speaker 5: Federal Marshal of the Southern District of New York. Folks,
Speaker 5: wherever you're listening, I know Barry Collins is in Scotland.
Speaker 5: Wherever you're listening, I got to tell you something. Okay,
Speaker 5: what we're saying here is bat Masterson, who was the
Speaker 5: sheriff of Dodge City Fort Towny, Kansas, which included Dodge.
Speaker 5: We're saying he was the he was a deputy Federal
Speaker 5: Marshal of New York City, of New York City, and
Speaker 5: people knew who he was. And he's doing this at
Speaker 5: the same time as he's being a reporter, which means
Speaker 5: we got ourselves a reporter walking around with a gun.
Speaker 7: The interesting thing is why he accepted that and why
Speaker 7: it worked out. You don't explain really why, but you
Speaker 7: know bat knew very well why he denied the first
Speaker 7: job offer, but this came with no confirmation process, so
Speaker 7: he was able to take that easily. So he has
Speaker 7: a prestigious job, important job, but most important, nobody knows
Speaker 7: the secret. Let's get to this murder at Big Goose Lake,
Speaker 7: because this is the thing that's the most fascinating part
Speaker 7: of his story. He does all kinds of other reporting.
Speaker 7: Of course, the sports reporting is fascinating because it's analysis
Speaker 7: he finds and discovers, of course as a good reporter,
Speaker 7: that some of these fights are fixed. So that's another
Speaker 7: fascinating aspect of his career. But this really defines so
Speaker 7: much about him is his murder at Big Moose Lake.
Speaker 7: Give us the background about this Chester Gillett and Miss
Speaker 7: Grace Brown.
Speaker 5: Okay, this is what would become known as the first
Speaker 5: trial of the twentieth century, long before OJ Okay, And
Speaker 5: what happens here is this This this fellow named Chester Gillette,
Speaker 5: who comes from a fairly well well family, but he's
Speaker 5: on the wrong side and he's working at a managing
Speaker 5: a factory for his uncle in Herkimer in New York. Well, no,
Speaker 5: it wasn't Herkimer. He's nearby Herkimer, but but Herkimer is
Speaker 5: the county. Okay. The point is he meets a girl
Speaker 5: named Grace Brown, and whether or not they fell in
Speaker 5: love is anybody's guess. What isn't well, yeah, what isn't
Speaker 5: is that she gets pregnant with his child and he
Speaker 5: uh he and she's really upset because she wants to
Speaker 5: get married, you know, because in those days that's you know,
Speaker 5: it's a different situation. Well, I don't know how much
Speaker 5: has things changed whatever. Anyway, So what happens is he
Speaker 5: decides Chester Ji left. Oh boy, and I was thinking
Speaker 5: about you, Dan when I went to Herkimer. What happened
Speaker 5: is he decided he's going to take uh Grace on
Speaker 5: a lake, Big Moose Lake. They're going to go voting.
Speaker 5: Now here's the thing. The I've gone to Herkimer where
Speaker 5: where Chester's let would later be tried, and it would.
Speaker 5: But Big Moose Lake is about seventy miles north in
Speaker 5: the Appalachian Mountains. And I'm talking. I've been in almost
Speaker 5: every state, Dan, and quite a few of the quite
Speaker 5: a few of the provinces. This was the most isolated
Speaker 5: place I've ever been to in my life. It would
Speaker 5: be no question if you want it. But but I
Speaker 5: but before I went there, when I, when I've been
Speaker 5: the place where he subsequently was tried, I said to
Speaker 5: my I said to myself, wait a second. I got
Speaker 5: to drive seventy miles north into no into the No
Speaker 5: Place in order to find, you know, find this place.
Speaker 5: But if I'm going to write about the murder, I
Speaker 5: got to find out where the heck this happened, so
Speaker 5: that I, you know, I can. I've got some authority.
Speaker 5: So I drove up there, okay, and I looked around,
Speaker 5: took pictures, and and then I I in a certain way,
Speaker 5: I sort of compared what happened to I certainly compared
Speaker 5: it to the book that was written about it, an
Speaker 5: American tragedy by Dreiser in the movie A Place in
Speaker 5: the Sun with Liz Taylor monty Cliff. But what got
Speaker 5: me was the fact that bat Masterson covered the case.
Speaker 5: His editor assigned him to go up to the trials.
Speaker 5: In other words, what happens is I should explained that
Speaker 5: the woman dies. She she allegedly is thrown overboard by
Speaker 5: Chester Gillette Grace Brown. But there's there's very little physical
Speaker 5: evidence to show that it's just a supposition. And Grace
Speaker 5: had actually written quite a few notes that where she
Speaker 5: talked about suicide. So Masterson goes to cover the trial
Speaker 5: in herker, New York. I can't tell you what it
Speaker 5: was like walking the same davement that my idol dick.
Speaker 5: It was incredible. And I got into the same courtroom
Speaker 5: where the trial took place where Chester Gillette was tried
Speaker 5: for killing Grace Brown and was convicted and sentenced to
Speaker 5: the electric chair. And what happens uh during the during
Speaker 5: the the the juries being out considering the verdict, Dan
Speaker 5: the mock forms a mob, and there's Bat Masterson. Holy moly,
Speaker 5: I mean Bat Masterson and and and what happens is
Speaker 5: Masterson then writes an article about it where he's he
Speaker 5: calls the headline is new style lynch law in upstate
Speaker 5: New York, which gets him in a lot of trouble
Speaker 5: with with the with the court.
Speaker 7: Mm hmm, I mean he felt.
Speaker 5: Good.
Speaker 7: He felt that that the threat of the mob lynching
Speaker 7: Gillette affected the verdict completely. He said in print, he
Speaker 7: said there would have been no other verdict other than
Speaker 7: this verdict because of the effect of that lynch mob
Speaker 7: on the case.
Speaker 5: Boy, you're right, I mean, yes, I'm glad you pointed
Speaker 5: that out. That's exactly what happened. So he felt he
Speaker 5: felt it was it was a it was he felt
Speaker 5: it was the wrong verb for that for a lot
Speaker 5: of reasons. But that was the main reason these people
Speaker 5: were the fury was intimidated into convicting the guy.
Speaker 7: You say, there was a couple other irregularities and also
Speaker 7: in the trial that that Baton noticed and noted. Now,
Speaker 7: as a result of this criticism, what happened to his
Speaker 7: publisher and himself This is another incredible part of this
Speaker 7: What what happened?
Speaker 5: Well, what happened. What happened was I'm not sure if
Speaker 5: it was the first but the judge who turned out
Speaker 5: wanted to run for higher office. He didn't like the
Speaker 5: fact that the master standing, who was a big celebrity,
Speaker 5: was criticizing him in the New York paper. So he
Speaker 5: thought Masterson and his publisher in contempt of court. Now,
Speaker 5: obviously that wouldn't hold up in the Supreme Court because
Speaker 5: of the First Amendment. But rather than but but what
Speaker 5: happens is the the the the the judge sense of
Speaker 5: the sheriff from Herkimer County down to New York to
Speaker 5: arrest Masterson and his publisher and take him back up
Speaker 5: to a hearing in front of him and Herkimer. And
Speaker 5: and that's exactly what happens. And rather but rather than
Speaker 5: take the case to the Supreme Court, which of course
Speaker 5: would have cost a lot of money, they just decided
Speaker 5: to pay a fifty dollar fine and and that and
Speaker 5: that's what happens. But well, I'll tell you what was
Speaker 5: so fascinating about it was not just the fact that
Speaker 5: the judge tried this. All the newspapers covered it. It
Speaker 5: wasn't just in Masterson's Morning Telegraph. I mean the New
Speaker 5: York Times, thank god for the New York Times. You know,
Speaker 5: you can read about this. And it's in the book,
Speaker 5: you know, where I write about this, and that the
Speaker 5: all these papers covered the fact that Masterson was and
Speaker 5: you know, was found you know, in contempt of court whatever,
Speaker 5: you know, whatever the heck the guy called it.
Speaker 7: It didn't you say, you write that it didn't hurt
Speaker 7: him his journalistic reputation. But what's even more fascinating too,
Speaker 7: is that how the you know, talk about trial by press.
Speaker 7: These guys in in uh in sync with the recently
Speaker 7: released novel Dracula, a bestseller in eighteen ninety nine. How
Speaker 7: do they depict this, this Chester Gillette and this crime.
Speaker 5: Well, Chester Gillette was depicted as as a as a vampire.
Speaker 5: It was very interesting. He was basically depicted that way
Speaker 5: by the press across the United States. I can tell
Speaker 5: you that it started with the local press there in Herkimer,
Speaker 5: New York. And he he was just depicted as being,
Speaker 5: you know, Dracula. He was depicted as being Dracula. And
Speaker 5: this is before Bella looked Goosie but the move but
Speaker 5: the book was out and uh geez, come to think,
Speaker 5: I guess Frentstein wouldn't work. But he certainly was like Dracula,
Speaker 5: no question.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Was what I found interesting in this is did
Speaker 7: bat Masterson as a journalist. He didn't come out and
Speaker 7: say guilt one way or another. He just as a
Speaker 7: proper journalist, had issues with with a defense team that
Speaker 7: was breaking the rules of disclosure or at some of
Speaker 7: the again irregularities that were allowed by the judge Devonport.
Speaker 5: Oh the pro accution was, oh man, they did something
Speaker 5: to give an idea about an irregularity. I've never seen this.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 5: As we said earlier, Grace Brown was pregnant. What did
Speaker 5: they do? Yeah, they took the fetus from her body
Speaker 5: and put it into finale the hide and brought it
Speaker 5: into into court as evidence. Excuse me, you know that
Speaker 5: that that has no probative value appropriati excuse me. But
Speaker 5: but but there were those kinds of irregularities.
Speaker 7: And uh, how about the body? How about the body
Speaker 7: in the corner? They sidestepped that process.
Speaker 5: Oh boy, the body, Oh boy, they they Oh boy,
Speaker 5: they sent the body. Boy, the body was embombed before
Speaker 5: the carner got ahold of it. And even in those days,
Speaker 5: they knew that could destroy evidence. Mm hmm, they didn't.
Speaker 5: You know, this is this is the kind of case
Speaker 5: that today would never hold up. Boom, it's it's it's
Speaker 5: it be out. You know, it would never hold up.
Speaker 5: But they got away with it. They got away with
Speaker 5: it because there was so much press against Jillette. That's
Speaker 5: the reason they got away with it. People wanted this
Speaker 5: guy to die.
Speaker 7: Bat though, did think that he was not a killer.
Speaker 7: So what did bat Masterson suppose happened that day with
Speaker 7: this woman that was distraught she had been separated from
Speaker 7: this her manager, boss, her lover, and had written these
Speaker 7: letters that were foremost in the in the trial, all
Speaker 7: these hearts felt letters. But she also said many times
Speaker 7: in those letters that she wanted to die? Could she die?
Speaker 7: Talking about obviously suicidal thoughts. So what did bat Masterson
Speaker 7: think happen? Because you he talks about that his attorney,
Speaker 7: Chester's attorney had said that he was a coward, moral coward.
Speaker 7: So what do you think bat Masterson thought had happened?
Speaker 7: Rather than the official line.
Speaker 5: I think that what that thought happened was that when
Speaker 5: they went out on the boat, Grace Brown was clearly
Speaker 5: very upset, and he thought that she had gone overboard
Speaker 5: on her own. She just had gotten up and went in.
Speaker 5: And it's funny actually because when I watched that scene
Speaker 5: in the film and Place in the Sun nineteen fifty
Speaker 5: two to Even's film, that's basically the way they do it,
Speaker 5: which is interesting. They actually got that right, which it
Speaker 5: so so in other words, in other words, what we're
Speaker 5: saying here is there's no direct evidence of murder. They
Speaker 5: tried to the prosecution tried to say that some of
Speaker 5: her hair that was found at the bottom of the
Speaker 5: boat occurred because he knocked her down or something. Oh yeah,
Speaker 5: that was the other thing she almost forgot. I feel
Speaker 5: like Colombo, uh I almost forgot. He the prosecution's theory
Speaker 5: about how did he how did Chester to let kill her?
Speaker 5: He hit her with his tennis racket? I mean, and
Speaker 5: which which Again, when I read that, I just went,
Speaker 5: this is ridiculous. Who killed somebody with a tennis racket?
Speaker 5: It's ridiculous, you know. And they they weren't able to
Speaker 5: prove that any bruises on her were from a tennis
Speaker 5: record or anything else, but that's what they piled the jury,
Speaker 5: and the jury bought it well apparently board it.
Speaker 7: Well. Like I say, after that he was sued. They
Speaker 7: gave him a small fine. It was fifty dollars. It
Speaker 7: was the pragmatic thing to do for bat even though
Speaker 7: he hated to admit anything, to say he was guilty
Speaker 7: of anything that he certainly wasn't. You talk about other
Speaker 7: relationships like Damien running that's essential in his in his legacy.
Speaker 7: But you talk about Teddy Roosevelt, and he had backed
Speaker 7: William Howard taft h taft one and Teddy Roosevelt had
Speaker 7: this last reception and he invited bat Masters to come
Speaker 7: because their friends and they mean a lot to each other.
Speaker 7: What does that do?
Speaker 5: Bet decided not to go, and it's that was I
Speaker 5: was trying to figure that one out. And I make
Speaker 5: a supposition in the book that because he was friends
Speaker 5: with the guy, but it's but what I noticed is
Speaker 5: that Masterson stayed away from situations where he was in
Speaker 5: crowds where people would question him about things because he
Speaker 5: had something to hide. You know, he had something to hide.
Speaker 5: I mean, one of the things I tried, you know,
Speaker 5: I looked at very closely is whether or not he
Speaker 5: might have told the tr that he was an alien.
Speaker 5: But I realized very quickly that if he'd done that,
Speaker 5: TR would have reported him.
Speaker 4: So it.
Speaker 5: So when he decided not to go to to to
Speaker 5: Teddy Roosevelt's last lunch, and I think it was more
Speaker 5: because he just didn't want to socialize with people. He
Speaker 5: was afraid that you know, you just I guess you
Speaker 5: just never't know. I mean, to me, the guy seems
Speaker 5: Masterston seems like he was very cautious personally, and he
Speaker 5: was very cautious personally and in his relationships with people.
Speaker 5: You know, one of the.
Speaker 7: Go ahead go ahead, you'll go ahead.
Speaker 5: No, I was just gonna say. I was just gonna say.
Speaker 5: One of the things I found interesting was that later
Speaker 5: in his life he doesn't have anything to do with Wyatter,
Speaker 5: who's still alive. I found that really interesting that it
Speaker 5: was a diversion, not a diversion. A there's a dichotomy
Speaker 5: between these people because they're always put together. But in
Speaker 5: his life there was certain one or two points where
Speaker 5: he could have used their Helpie didn't you know layer On,
Speaker 5: He didn't call them. And when I say call them,
Speaker 5: I mean call them. You know, we had phones.
Speaker 7: Then there's so much that historically that happens in these
Speaker 7: short few years that bat Masterson is an integral part
Speaker 7: of American history, include the Man Act of nineteen ten,
Speaker 7: and also it's it's demonstrated by a particular event in
Speaker 7: boxing that that Masterson is involved with and comments on
Speaker 7: and finds it important obviously because of this historical importance.
Speaker 7: And this is this, Uh, Jack Johnson and accused by
Speaker 7: a woman of kidnapping her daughter and bringing her across
Speaker 7: state lines. Woodrow Wilson is the president at the time.
Speaker 7: You call him a racist president? Uh, tell us about
Speaker 7: this frame up of Johnson and what massol and rights
Speaker 7: and concludes, Well, the thing is.
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, it's a lot, boy, that's that's that's a lot.
Speaker 5: What happens is, uh, the Man Act is is a
Speaker 5: federal law still in effect as far as I know,
Speaker 5: that prevents a person, a guy, well, a person from
Speaker 5: taking another person, of course, across state line purpose of sex.
Speaker 5: So Johnson goes across state lines with this woman who
Speaker 5: I think he later marries her. Okay, but the government
Speaker 5: goes after him. Wilson goes after him, and Wilson's Justice
Speaker 5: department goes after him, find and finds him guilty. And
Speaker 5: at this point he's a heavyweight champ of the world.
Speaker 5: Finds him guilty of violating the Man Act. And what
Speaker 5: happens He's got to leave the country and and so
Speaker 5: he leaves the country and he winds up, winds up
Speaker 5: finally fighting jess Willard in Cuba of all places, and
Speaker 5: that covers the trial. And what's really really interesting about
Speaker 5: it is that it's written the way it's written down
Speaker 5: in history is that Willard knocks out Johnson. Okay, Well,
Speaker 5: what really happens is at some point Jackson's on on
Speaker 5: the on the I was gonna say payment on on
Speaker 5: the canvas. He looks up at the sun because this
Speaker 5: is outside, and he shields his eyes. But meanwhile he's
Speaker 5: talking back and forth with his wife who's sitting ringside, okay,
Speaker 5: and Masterson notices this, And basically what Masterson notices is
Speaker 5: and Jack Jack Johnson will later confess that he threw
Speaker 5: the fight that he'd pay off, and Masterson was basically
Speaker 5: noticing how this went down. That's what I find so
Speaker 5: interesting about the guy As a journalist, Dan, he really
Speaker 5: paid attention, unlike a lot of journalists today.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he also write that it was fascinating too that
Speaker 7: at that point when he looked up to block the sun,
Speaker 7: he was supposed to be incapacitated on on the mat,
Speaker 7: but he had been waiting for his wife to signal
Speaker 7: him because he wouldn't throw that fight till he knew
Speaker 7: his wife had that money. And I think they shirked
Speaker 7: them on the money anyway, But or if they didn't,
Speaker 7: they waited to the twenty six unbelievable, the twenty sixth round,
Speaker 7: and by all accounts, he was winning this fight easily.
Speaker 7: Was just wasn't even obviously wasn't trying too hard. But
Speaker 7: he was ahead technically until this moment where he was
Speaker 7: knocked out apparently.
Speaker 5: And you know what, the best is the best. I'm
Speaker 5: sorry to interrupted, but the best is uh, there's he
Speaker 5: can put this in a book. But there's video of it,
Speaker 5: this video. You can watch the video. You can see it.
Speaker 5: I mean you can see it. And then of course
Speaker 5: the other point is that john as we say, as
Speaker 5: you mentioned, Johnson's found guilty of the Man Act, he
Speaker 5: wasn't cleared until twenty eighteen when President Trump what do
Speaker 5: you call it, overturned the conviction. Yeah, and that happened
Speaker 5: in in fact, that happened in twenty eighteen as I
Speaker 5: was upstate, doing well, upstate New York doing the research.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean it's something.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you write that in nineteen nineteen Woodrow Wilson, he's
Speaker 7: they're looking at Canadians illegally in the US. He wants
Speaker 7: to defend the northern northern US in case Canadians invade.
Speaker 7: So that's how much we didn't go through all of
Speaker 7: the changes in the Immigration Act. But now there's more
Speaker 7: and more people that are added to the list, added
Speaker 7: to the categories that are considered undesirables and not allowed
Speaker 7: in the US.
Speaker 6: It's not true.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, but I I Dan when I read that,
Speaker 5: I was thinking about you. I was feeling, does Dan
Speaker 5: know that that that that they wanted to repel a Canadian?
Speaker 5: And I've never heard of anything as stupid in my life,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. It's just incredibly stupid. And
Speaker 5: again it proved it's not Pruve's. It shows how foolish
Speaker 5: our presidents can be.
Speaker 7: Certainly, certainly we talked about Damon Runyon and they met
Speaker 7: and he was that was an idol of his journalistically,
Speaker 7: you right, yes, and so as a result, and there
Speaker 7: was another person named Stuart Lake was also influenced by
Speaker 7: that as well. What does this amount to later in
Speaker 7: terms of Runyan's reporting on the Old West, his writing,
Speaker 7: I'm not reporting writing about the Old West?
Speaker 5: Well, well, Ryan, what Runyan does? He decides to use
Speaker 5: Masterson as a character and and and and and a
Speaker 5: short story that he writes which becomes Guys and Dolls,
Speaker 5: the famous word Way musical, and the character in the
Speaker 5: show in the short story and then later in the
Speaker 5: show is called Sky Masterson. Gee, you think there's a
Speaker 5: similarity there. So that's that's the first. That's the first thing.
Speaker 5: The other thing is that you mentioned Stuart Lake, that
Speaker 5: oil boy Stuart Lake was was a newspaper or a
Speaker 5: colleague of Masterson's. He worked on another paper, and later
Speaker 5: on he goes to Hollyweird and becomes uh good friends
Speaker 5: with Wyatt Irb and writes IRB's biography, which is fictionalized.
Speaker 7: Sure see that.
Speaker 5: That's the point, which is that the twentieth century and
Speaker 5: twenty first consent, twentieth and twenty first century conception of
Speaker 5: wired Earp is from a fictionalized biography. And I'll just
Speaker 5: say also that I was just shocked when I found
Speaker 5: out Lake was still alive in the late fifties when
Speaker 5: they did the TV series The Life and Legend of
Speaker 5: Wire Up and he was technical advisor, which means there
Speaker 5: I am sitting at home watching this thing and it's
Speaker 5: full fiction, you know, I mean, it's it's interesting again
Speaker 5: because of how these people were. You know, there's an
Speaker 5: overlapping that people don't understand in history, people's lives overlap. Sure,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. I mean, it's it's I mean,
Speaker 5: the book is my book is being published tomorrow quickly.
Speaker 5: But that's October twenty fifth, and that's the ninety eighth
Speaker 5: anniversary of Masterson's death.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely, I was going to say in nineteen twenty
Speaker 7: one what we did skip was just one important fact.
Speaker 7: When they were trying to malign Bat Masterson and his
Speaker 7: career and his contributions, they said they had a I
Speaker 7: guess a well mentioned rumor of how many people they
Speaker 7: said we killed, And do have this dramatic part in
Speaker 7: court where he has to say he has to ask
Speaker 7: the question when somebody asked him how many people he's killed,
Speaker 7: tell us the truth versus this rumor. And Bat's interesting
Speaker 7: responses at court.
Speaker 5: To this innaleegation, Well, he basically goes it involved a
Speaker 5: legal fase, and he's in court and he's been questioned
Speaker 5: by Benjamin kark Those though, who becomes a Supreme justice,
Speaker 5: Supreme Court justice, and he asks him all about the
Speaker 5: people that he killed, and he says he tells the truth.
Speaker 5: He says, there were four people and three people and
Speaker 5: then the fourth died from wound suffered as a result
Speaker 5: of his gunshot. But it contradicts a story that had
Speaker 5: been written about him by a newspaper reporter that said
Speaker 5: he killed like eighteen people, which was all a bunch
Speaker 5: of crap. You know, this is why you know, the
Speaker 5: truth is indeed stranger than fiction here, I mean, the
Speaker 5: fact is Oh and also, you know, when he's asked
Speaker 5: about the Indian fighting, he's so funny, Masterson. He says,
Speaker 5: you can't blame me if I didn't hit any of them.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the guy because he was supposed to be an
Speaker 7: Indian hunter with so many they depicted in the newspaper,
Speaker 7: or at least one newspaper that had it in for
Speaker 7: him to say that he had killed twenty three and
Speaker 7: how many Indians, and he had shot these people in
Speaker 7: the back, so drunken Mexicans and Indians, and he shot
Speaker 7: him in the back. And that really outraged Bat Masterson.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was this this fight manager who he'd exposed
Speaker 5: claiming that he made his reputation shooting Mexicans and Indians
Speaker 5: in the back. And that's when Masterson just said, that's it,
Speaker 5: I'm not you know, And that's when he sued. And again,
Speaker 5: what I loved is the fact that he goes up
Speaker 5: against the future Supreme Court justice and beats them at
Speaker 5: his own game.
Speaker 7: That's pretty good, you righte, That he continued to write
Speaker 7: and continued to have an audience and B six Bestful.
Speaker 7: October twenty fifth, nineteen twenty one, Bat got to the
Speaker 7: Morning Telegraph, went up to his office and sat at
Speaker 7: a desk and to catch up on all the recording.
Speaker 7: He said, he had a cold. So what happened to
Speaker 7: him that day? And tell us as you write in
Speaker 7: this people discovering him at his desk.
Speaker 5: Well, he had a cold, and a guy from the
Speaker 5: next book, as one of his colleagues, came in and
Speaker 5: asked him how he was doing. He said, fine, whatever,
Speaker 5: And then the next thing you know, the guy comes
Speaker 5: back in and there's Matison slumped over his typewriter, dead
Speaker 5: from a heart attack. And at that point his death
Speaker 5: becomes it's certainly national news. I can't say it was international,
Speaker 5: I don't know, but it becomes national news. It's all
Speaker 5: over the place. It's covered by every newspaper. I mean,
Speaker 5: I find when I look at something, you know, when
Speaker 5: you look at the New York Times, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean, it's like whoa you know? And so it
Speaker 5: was front page news, and it was, you know, the
Speaker 5: guy was considered to be He really was a legend
Speaker 5: in his own time.
Speaker 7: You write that there was misinformation right at the end
Speaker 7: that he was writing and what he wrote, because I
Speaker 7: was fascinating to people, this incredibly influential journalist. What was
Speaker 7: he writing when he died right at his desk, And
Speaker 7: so it really wasn't true what he did wrote, right,
Speaker 7: But you include in this book many of the writings
Speaker 7: of that so he can get a feel of his character,
Speaker 7: sense of humor, just the way he wrote.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: But he talks about in this last paragraph and I'll
Speaker 7: just read it. Yet, there are those that argue that
Speaker 7: everything breaks even in this old dump of a world
Speaker 7: of ours. I suppose those ginks that argue that way
Speaker 7: hold that because the rich man gets ice in the
Speaker 7: summer and the poor man gets it into winter, things
Speaker 7: are breaking even for both. Maybe so, But I'll swear
Speaker 7: I can't see it that way.
Speaker 5: Yes, you know that that that got me. He's so
Speaker 5: he's just a good writer. Frankly, you know, I feel
Speaker 5: like I got a lot to live up to here.
Speaker 5: And he writes that, and then he writes but but
Speaker 5: that's not the last thing he writes. He goes on
Speaker 5: to write about some some boxer, and but what's fascinating
Speaker 5: to me, Oh, God, is the fact that it just happened.
Speaker 5: I'll just tell you, Dan, it happened by accident. Oh
Speaker 5: two years ago. It was a hurricane that hit the Houston,
Speaker 5: you know, in the Gulf of Mexico, right, and my
Speaker 5: and my mother, who's ninety nine years old. I'm her caretaker.
Speaker 5: She says to me. One day, she says, h Fred
Speaker 5: bat Masterson's there mentioned in the newspaper. I went what
Speaker 5: she said. He's mentioned newspaper, So I figured my mother
Speaker 5: must be you know, she's going you know, sure enough,
Speaker 5: what happened? What happened? Dan. It turns out there was
Speaker 5: a columnist for the Washington Post who quoted what you
Speaker 5: just said, what Masterson wrote point, the point being that
Speaker 5: the people in Houston were going to that didn't have money,
Speaker 5: were going to get hurt by the hurricane, and so
Speaker 5: things don't break even in the world. And this, you know,
Speaker 5: I just found it so but fascinating to me that
Speaker 5: a reporter for the Washington Post would even know this.
Speaker 5: But it said something about the man's words. They stood
Speaker 5: the test of time. You talk, are you right?
Speaker 7: That when he died, and it was it was very
Speaker 7: positive and in his death, his legend, his his appraisal,
Speaker 7: people's appraisal of him as a journalist and a man. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but they also put that there's place of birth. I
Speaker 7: believe it was in Illinois. Yes, When did it surface
Speaker 7: that he was the first Dreamer?
Speaker 5: Well, what happened was I had been wanting to do
Speaker 5: a book about that Masterson, as I've said for many years,
Speaker 5: and I was going to do something on him in
Speaker 5: twenty and sixteen, and for some reason it didn't sell,
Speaker 5: which turned out to be one of the luckiest things
Speaker 5: that ever happened to me, because I just kept looking, can't.
Speaker 5: I had a feeling that he was holding something back,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean? And I it was just
Speaker 5: a feeling, you know, Dan, you get a feeling as
Speaker 5: a journalist. And so I did some research on his
Speaker 5: background and at that point, again I'm going back two
Speaker 5: to three years, there really wasn't very much written about
Speaker 5: at that point about him coming from Quebec. And I
Speaker 5: found somebody online who'd written something who claimed to be
Speaker 5: a distant relative, and this person claimed that Masterson was illegal. Well,
Speaker 5: I don't have to tell you he reads something online.
Speaker 5: You got to prove it, right. So I was able
Speaker 5: to use the I went online and was able to
Speaker 5: use the Mormon website, which is the best when it
Speaker 5: comes to researching person's background. Next thing, you know, I
Speaker 5: was able to find everything on the Masterson's regarding what
Speaker 5: they what they did, as far as what they said,
Speaker 5: what Masterson said on these these census forms where he
Speaker 5: lied every single time. And I was also able eventually
Speaker 5: to track down his birth certificate in Quebec.
Speaker 7: Incredible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was really something, you know, but but you know,
Speaker 5: but thank god we have these resources and we've got
Speaker 5: people have kept records, you know. But I got to
Speaker 5: tell you something. When I found out that Masterson was
Speaker 5: a dreamer, I was blown away. I'm still blown away, Yes,
Speaker 5: I mean I'm still blown away. I mean it's I'm
Speaker 5: going to assume he's the only dreamer on a well,
Speaker 5: he's the only illegal immigrant on a US stamp.
Speaker 7: I could be wrong, but I'm you know, yeah, Fred,
Speaker 7: I want to thank you and congratulate you on Bat Masterson.
Speaker 7: It's been fascinating. It's an incredible book. You can't put
Speaker 7: it down. It's so fascinating and Bat Masterson is revealed
Speaker 7: to be one of the most fascinating characters in American
Speaker 7: history and a very important one. I want to thank
Speaker 7: you very much for coming on and talking about bat Masterson,
Speaker 7: the First Dreamer. For those people that might want to
Speaker 7: take a look at this book, tell us where this
Speaker 7: they might take a look, who publishes this, and where
Speaker 7: they might go to look at your other.
Speaker 5: Pasture, which is uh, the work is thank you sir
Speaker 5: that the book is being published by R. J. Parker Publishing.
Speaker 5: It's available either at his website or just by going
Speaker 5: to Amazon dot com. It's available in both print and ebook.
Speaker 7: Fantastic and all they have to do is go look
Speaker 7: up Amazon dot com and see other all your other
Speaker 7: fascinating books that we've all covered on True Murder. I
Speaker 7: want to thank you very much, Fred Rosen, It's been
Speaker 7: an absolute pleasure. You have a great evening, Dan.
Speaker 5: I just want to say you have been so helpful
Speaker 5: and so supportive. Thank you sir for having me come
Speaker 5: on and discuss this and all my other books. I
Speaker 5: appreciate it.
Speaker 7: It's been a real privilege Fred. Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: If you have a great event, I hes