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Are you 23 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:53.880 feeling lucky? 24 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:54.280 No? 25 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:57.960 Purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. Terms 26 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:03.920 and conditions apply. See website for dlop to Canadian. 27 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.439 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.560 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:27.200 written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 30 00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:31.200 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 31 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:35.280 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 32 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:38.799 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 33 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:53.200 Good Evening. Nearly one hundred years since his death, Bat 34 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.760 Masterson still holds great influence. Remembered by many for his 35 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:02.480 adventures in America's Old West. Buffalo hunter, scout, gunfighter, and 36 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:07.079 even lawman as Dodge City sheriff in twentieth century New 37 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:11.840 York City, became a sportswriter. However, Masterson left a legacy 38 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:16.319 that is much more intricate. Masterson always stood up for 39 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.680 the underdog, and his real legacy was how he fought 40 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:22.919 for them. After the days of the Old West were over, 41 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.400 he laid down his gun and picked up his pen. 42 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.159 So great was his writing that he vastly respected. He 43 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.960 was vastly respected for his opinions on many topics of 44 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:37.039 the day, including crime, politics, and war. But bat Masterson 45 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.039 had a secret, one that he kept well hidden his 46 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.439 entire life, for if known, he and all those he 47 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.960 cared about would be ruined, his reputation and all that 48 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:49.680 he worked for in his life would be in tatters. 49 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.479 The book that were featuring this evening is Bat Masterson, 50 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.919 The First Dreamer, with my special guests, journalist and author 51 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:03.159 Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, Read Rosen. 52 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.520 Dan it is. It is a huge pleasure to be 53 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:12.479 here talking to you about this book. It's a huge pleasure. 54 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:20.639 Well, thank you how much. Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting you. 55 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.439 It's an absolute pleasure to have you on and the 56 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.319 first interview you've done about this book. So I feel 57 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.439 privileged to have you on talking about this book again. 58 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:35.759 As I mentioned before, so many parallels to today's political situation. 59 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:42.159 But bat Masterson, you've brought to life. Tell our audience 60 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:47.759 read why how important this book bat Masterson is to you? 61 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.080 How long have you wanted to write this book? Tell 62 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:52.039 us a little bit about that. 63 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:57.280 Oh boy, I knew you were going to ask that, 64 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:06.680 and I have wanted to a boy, give me a second. 65 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:15.400 I've wanted to write this book for over forty years, 66 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:23.319 and gee, I guess I'm dating myself. But what happened 67 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.279 was when I was when I was a child, I 68 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.759 watched the TV series and it was the late fifties 69 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.399 and I was a child, Dan, but I was a 70 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:37.600 huge fan of westerns TV westerns, which were very They 71 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:41.199 were the most popular genre at that point. This is 72 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:46.240 before reality shows. And there was a show called Bat 73 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:49.560 Masterson and I got into watching it, and at the 74 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.480 very end of the show, Dan, there was the final 75 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.600 title card that said based on the book by Richard O'Connor. 76 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.319 And I'm a kid, and I'm sitting there and going, 77 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.759 wait a second, the guy's real. I couldn't believe it, 78 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:09.879 you know, And and then and then and then I went, gee, 79 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:15.199 that's something. And then in the nineteen seventies, I was 80 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.759 still interested and I started doing some research and I 81 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:20.360 find out the guy comes to New York City and 82 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:26.199 becomes a reporter. But even more than that, he he 83 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.800 what he becomes best known for is a reporter, though 84 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:35.879 becomes here as a sports writer. He writes a big 85 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:41.240 story about what became known as the First Trial of 86 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.360 the Century nineteen o six, and this was it was 87 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:51.040 a murder case. Murder Yeah, well it depending upon who 88 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:55.399 you talk to and where a guy gets gets a 89 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.879 girl pregnant and then drowns her because he doesn't want 90 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.519 to have her kid, suppose it, or want her to 91 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.240 have a kid supposedly. Okay, it becomes the basis of 92 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:08.160 Rice is an American tragedy. Uh, the film a place 93 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:12.879 in the song of Montgomery Cliff and Liz Taylor. And 94 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:16.800 but but the truth gets lost, okay, which is that 95 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.240 this was the most sensational murder case in the history 96 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.000 of New York and the guy that covered it for 97 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.959 his newspaper was Bat Masterson. And he solves it. And 98 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:33.480 that's what got me, you know, the fact that he 99 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.560 solved it. Dan and he and and and and he 100 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:40.040 here was a guy that already worked on quite a 101 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:41.199 few murdicases. 102 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:49.800 Right, take us back as you do, because we're going 103 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:56.199 to hold back this secret. But tell us it won't 104 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.040 be long before that's revealed. But let's let's find out 105 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.600 about his back crown, about his mother and his father 106 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.439 and his life growing up. And tell us a little 107 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:11.319 bit about Thomas and his wife Catherine and their life, 108 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:15.480 about where they came from, originally and where they were 109 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.600 from before they moved to Missouri. 110 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.519 Tell us about well, I'll tell you about it. But 111 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.240 I also have to say to everybody listening today that 112 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.639 I don't you know, I believe in you can call 113 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.600 it faith, you can call it God. It's no accident 114 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:37.360 that you're interviewing me about this because you're a Canadian. 115 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:42.600 Well so is bat Masterson. And that was the point. 116 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:49.040 Bat Masterson was what today we call a dreamer. He 117 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:55.079 came to America from Canada as a child in the 118 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:05.000 early eighteen sixties and the he uh in those days, uh, 119 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:11.000 it was legal, it was. It really was an open border, Okay, 120 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:15.680 but but it all changed. And that was what was 121 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:20.879 so fascinating to me. Dan about this from I don't 122 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.199 even think it. I could. I guess I could say 123 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:27.560 a political point of view. But see today in America, 124 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:31.240 and I'm sure you know you you got you see 125 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.399 if you see this, they're always writing about dreamers from 126 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:40.679 the southern border, and our president is against them. Well, 127 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:46.159 when I was writing this book, I said, you know something, 128 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.080 I got a choice here, Okay, I can either get 129 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.799 political or I can report the facts. And I thought 130 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:55.960 about you, and I said boys friend. If you don't 131 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.919 report the facts, Dane will give you a hard time. 132 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.080 So I I so I did my reporting, and I 133 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:08.480 was shocked, Okay, I was shocked to find out how 134 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:14.399 many presidents we've had, going back to Miller Fillmore, we're 135 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:23.559 looking in eighteen fifties, who who were today? They were nationalists, nativists, Okay, 136 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:28.799 And and and Masterson's family his mother was from was 137 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.399 from Ireland, his father was his father's family came from Ireland, 138 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.879 but he was a Native Canadian in Quebec Province. I 139 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:44.120 gotta be careful how I pronounced it. And uh. And they, 140 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:50.519 like many individuals around the world from then until now, 141 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:57.480 looked at our country as a place to go and 142 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:03.039 find a new life. And so they moved into upstate 143 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:09.519 New York. And but for whatever reason, it didn't work 144 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:11.399 for them, and they kept they kept tuning. With a 145 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.679 lot of people did. They went west, and literally west. 146 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.799 I mean, you know, it's pretty far west to go 147 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.279 from from uh, you know, go from New York to Kansas, 148 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.039 especially in those days. But they did it. And that's 149 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:32.000 of course where Masterson grew up in his reputation was developed. 150 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:41.679 You talk about the how they got to this this 151 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:46.320 journey to the west into Missouri finally, and you say 152 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.039 it was a dangerous time as well, and there was 153 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.440 still games roaming the state supporting one side or the 154 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:57.399 other from the Civil War, including Jesse and Frank James. 155 00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:05.039 They start robbing banks. And in eighteen seventy, you talk 156 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:11.960 about the census in eighteen seventy, what did what did 157 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:14.000 they have to say to the census takers at that 158 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.200 time in eighteen seventy We'll see how that changes. 159 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:21.120 Well, that's the fact. Okay, That's where it gets very 160 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.279 interesting when you compare it to what's happening in this 161 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.720 country today. Okay, what happened was is when is when 162 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.720 masterson family was his father was questioned about, you know, 163 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.799 by the census in those days, and I believe this, 164 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.200 this went up until the nineteen sixties. You got a 165 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:45.480 question on the census about where he came from, and 166 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:52.200 his father said the truth that they came from Canada. 167 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.440 Because in those at that point it was not illegal. 168 00:11:55.679 --> 00:12:00.919 That changed because when I say was not a legal 169 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:03.320 to come from Canada, what I mean was they never 170 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.879 applied for citizenship. They just walked across the word, you. 171 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:07.840 Know, mhm. 172 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:13.159 And and that old but that all changed and and 173 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.200 and and that. Again, it was so shocking to me 174 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.200 because you know, one of you know, you're finding out 175 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.480 stuff they didn't teach in high school, you know. But 176 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:29.480 I got to tell you, thank god I had. I 177 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:33.320 had seven murders to work, seven murder uh well that 178 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:38.840 not murder. Yeah, seven momicides that Matterson was involved in, 179 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:42.279 including four that he was responsible for. And that was 180 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.240 fascinating to be able to do, to go in beach with, 181 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:49.320 you know, like, you're right, I'm writing about what's happening politically, 182 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.919 et cetera, for for for people. But and then at 183 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.320 that point, you know, you know, he's involved in a 184 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:59.320 murder case, you know. And that's what really got to me, 185 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:03.519 which is I had no way, you know, because again 186 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.039 this is the real guy, not the guy from TV, 187 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.639 you know, and that's very important. Even though though this 188 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:14.320 show was based on a book, they fictionalized most of that, 189 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:18.000 you know. The only thing they didn't fictionalize was the portrayal. 190 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:20.360 Betrayal was extremely accurate. 191 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.279 Now you write that June sixth, eighteen seventy one, Thomas 192 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:32.720 Masterson bought an eighty acre farm in Sedgwick County, Kansas. 193 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.679 And this is about fourteen miles northeast of Wichita, and 194 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.360 that was a burgeoning Kansas cattle town at that time. 195 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:45.720 Bartholomew or bat was eighteen at that time, you say, 196 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.440 it was about five to nine, muscular, good looking guy. 197 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.679 How did he acquire his education? This is what I 198 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:55.360 thought was fascinating. Where did he get educated through? 199 00:13:55.639 --> 00:14:00.960 As you write, well, again, that's what's so that's one 200 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:07.120 that's really fascinating. He essentially was self educated. Now that 201 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.480 is wherever whenever his parents were traveling, you know, earlier 202 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.159 than that, you know, when he when he was let's 203 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:18.399 say ten twelve, whatever, you know, you would you would 204 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.120 expect that they would and there's no record of this, 205 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.039 but you would expect that they would enroll in a 206 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.519 local school, whether they were living in Missouri or Illinois, 207 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:31.480 because they lived in all these places. But what happened was, 208 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:39.279 in some way, this guy uh decided to really educate 209 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:47.960 himself and he became a vociferous reader. And and again 210 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:53.759 it's it's it's incredible. The guy wound up having an 211 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:59.200 incredible talent as a writer. And I'm not just saying that. 212 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.440 I mean, I gotta tell you one I went down 213 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.039 to the I had to go down to the New 214 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.480 York Public Library on forty second Street in Manhattan to 215 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:14.200 find his columns. Dan, you know, because you know, I 216 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.120 find a guy's columns and I'm reading and this is 217 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:21.320 the first time I've been able to read his columns. 218 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.799 Blew me away. I couldn't believe how talented he was 219 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:29.919 as a writer. And also the fact that when he 220 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:36.639 reported on Jack Johnson, who was the first African he 221 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.200 was first black heavyweight champ of the world, well everybody 222 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.840 else was wrote nay, nasty things about him, you know 223 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:47.720 what I mean, you know, racial epithets. Not that Masterson. 224 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:53.320 He would describe Jack Johnson as Johnson or the Negro 225 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:57.720 one of the two. That was it. And so I 226 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.559 was that blew me way. And then when you start 227 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:04.399 going a little bit further you find out how he 228 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.279 stood up for people. You know, that part of it 229 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.720 is really something. You know, how he stood up for people. 230 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.799 Let's get back to his beginnings though, when you talk 231 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.840 about he's eighteen years old, and this is again super 232 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.480 interesting in terms of this guy's buried background, what he 233 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:28.840 ends up doing in his entire life. You say he 234 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.559 ends up being a sports writer. It seems unlikely when 235 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.440 you talk about this kind of beginning. You talk about 236 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:38.639 he was a terrific shot. So what was a job 237 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:42.399 that he and his brothers found that they could do 238 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:43.320 and do well? 239 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:49.000 Well, what happened was the boy you're right, and yeah, 240 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:53.840 what happened was in those days you have yet heard 241 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:58.200 of buffalo growing across flames at the United States, And 242 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:04.240 they decided to become buffle hunter. And uh, there was 243 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:08.079 nothing unusual about that in those days, especially considering that 244 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:14.559 they were uh immigrants, because you know, there's there's not 245 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.279 much much much difference between then and now, you know, 246 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:20.519 a lot, you know, in terms of immigrants taking jobs 247 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.559 that a lot of people don't want to take, you know, 248 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:26.759 who've been here for a while, you know, So that 249 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:31.480 they became he became a buffalo hunter. He had to 250 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:36.759 skin the animals, and he did all this, all this 251 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.440 work with his brother, mostly with his brother Ed, sometimes 252 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.880 his brother Jim as well. 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Okay, this 285 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.319 is real, as you said, his real name is William Bartholomew. 286 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:09.039 But what happens is there had been a famous punter 287 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:14.279 who his name was Old Bat. And what happened was 288 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.319 Masterson has such a tremendous eye a hunter of people 289 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:21.680 started calling him back, and from that point onward he 290 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.039 used and he used the name. And of course he 291 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.839 did the other thing, which is he changed his middle 292 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:36.799 name from uh Bartholomew to Barclay and and so now 293 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.799 he's he's William Barclay Bat Masters, which again is like 294 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.799 a what a lot of immigrants do, they reinvent themselves. 295 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.720 That's exactly what he did. Mm hmm. 296 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.400 You say at the time he was he'd been shooting 297 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.119 buffalo for a few years. But Masterson became a lifelong 298 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.680 friend of a horse thief who would escaped jail and 299 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.839 then on west to establish a new identity. This is 300 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.599 a central figure in this incredible story of Bat Masterson, 301 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:11.279 who is this lifelong friend It becomes established as a 302 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:12.440 new identity. 303 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:19.480 Wyatter, it with Wider. He becomes friends with Wyatter, beneats 304 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.799 him as a Buffalo, and again I was very surprised, 305 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.640 you know. I you know, again, like most people, I believe, 306 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:32.559 you know, like the TV series. We had a TV 307 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.079 series called The Life and Legend of Wyat and I 308 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.759 believed it. And of course, uh, not too long ago. 309 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.759 Oh you know, in the middle nineties, Kurt Russell did 310 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:48.480 a Tombstone and while a lot of that will Tombstone 311 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:53.599 was fairly accurate, okay in terms of what happened, uh, 312 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:59.119 and also very accurate in terms of Earth's personality because 313 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.559 he's a killer in that thing. But that's not the 314 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.920 way that people have accepted Wyatt. They look at him 315 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.799 as being the same as Masterson, a law officer, et cetera, 316 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:16.799 et cetera. But it's a different story. But yeah, he 317 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.319 was his good buddy, you know. And that was what's 318 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:21.759 so interesting also about it. It is like because of 319 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:26.359 this this dotch City place, it's like everybody wound up 320 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.000 there one way or the other. You know, you mentioned 321 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:32.920 two of the other guys that wound up there, Frank 322 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.200 and Jesse James. I mean, I cracked up when I 323 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:39.920 was writing. It's a small scene, but I cracked up 324 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:45.839 when Masterson has to confront ranked in Jesse. James, Oh, 325 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:48.440 I just laughed at that. You know, it's just that 326 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.720 it's all of these people. You know that he knew 327 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.519 and he knew everybody. That's the other thing, you know, 328 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:59.640 because of his celebrity status. Man, that guy knew Masterson 329 00:21:59.680 --> 00:21:59.920 knew it. 330 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.400 You write in the book, which I find fascinating too, 331 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.200 is that all of these things are interconnected. This buffalo 332 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:13.599 hunt and we're talking about incredible numbers of buffalo killed 333 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:16.759 every day and skinned and their carcasses left on the prairie. 334 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.319 As you say, and again what you mentioned was that 335 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.920 it was the immigrant. It wasn't a great job. These 336 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.480 people were called stinkers because they stunk from doing this job. 337 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.039 The idea that also politically, there was a reason for 338 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.640 this buffalo hunt and these buffalo hunters. What was the 339 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:40.920 reason behind this incredible decimation of the buffalo on the plaines? 340 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:50.079 Oh boy, well, I'll explain it. Our government had decided 341 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:54.039 that they wanted to get rid of the Indians, and 342 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:55.400 the way they were going to get rid of the 343 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:01.359 Indians was to destroy their source of food and clothing, 344 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:05.519 which is the buffalo. So the idea is kill the buffalo, 345 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:10.880 and eventually the Indians will will you know, will they'll 346 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:12.920 leave or whatever. I don't know what they thought they 347 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.319 were gonna do, you know, I don't know what they 348 00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:19.559 thought they were gonna do. But they figured that that 349 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.720 would get rid of them in one way or the other. 350 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.079 Maybe they thought they started at that. I'm pretty sure 351 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:26.119 they probably were thinking about that. I mean, they were 352 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:32.559 really The cruelty is incredible, the cruelty that our government 353 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.799 engaged in. But again, this is just you know, say, 354 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.039 it's so part of history, I guess, right. 355 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:50.680 Yeah, you talk about Dodge City and the again the 356 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.880 talk about the reservation system as well. I don't know, 357 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:58.799 I mean, maybe a lot of people know this, but 358 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:03.319 I mean what's always fascinating is these policies and what 359 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.240 they did with the the tribes that were around this 360 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:13.039 Dodge City, for example. Tell us a little bit about 361 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:18.079 the government's efforts to be able to rain these people 362 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.400 in on reserves and what was the alternative if they 363 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:21.160 left the reserve? 364 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:31.119 Oh well, oh boy, oh boy? Uh yeah, well, what 365 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:38.039 if the if the Indians left the reservation for any reason, 366 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:44.400 they were considered federal fugitives and they would they would 367 00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:50.200 be tracked down and either captured or shot. That's the 368 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.839 way that that was the that our government was treating 369 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.880 the indigenous people of this nation. 370 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:00.440 Right. 371 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:07.319 And where it gets interesting for Masterson is that not 372 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.279 only does he wind up as a buffalo hunter, of course, 373 00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:18.000 but later on becomes what they called an Indian fighter. 374 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:28.000 He's also what's considered a good scout as well, and 375 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:32.599 also they understand his prowess with a rifle. He later 376 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.640 says though that he doesn't actually believe I got we're 377 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.759 getting ahead of ourselves, but he doesn't actually believe he 378 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.680 he shot any Indians whatsoever. 379 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:47.960 Yeah, he was funny at one point where he was 380 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:51.839 asked fat hunter oath in a simple case in New 381 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.480 York City, and he said he was being at how 382 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:58.839 many Indians he shot? And he went, well, I don't 383 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.759 know that, don't don't don't blame me if I didn't 384 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.279 shoot any That's basically what the guy said, you know, 385 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.559 because he was in a situation where he was being 386 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:16.079 attacked and he was with buffalo hunters and they opened firing, 387 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.480 and sure it was hard to tell what happened. A 388 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:21.240 good point, actually, it's a very good point. 389 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.599 How does bat get to this situation where he is 390 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:33.640 recognized as a potential lawman and tell us a little 391 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.799 bit more about Dodge City and also about his other cohorts. 392 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:44.200 These famous legends of the West also seem to transform 393 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.279 themselves into lawman. Tell us about this process that does 394 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:50.599 this well and the new job for bat Masterson. 395 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:55.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good really, that's a good question. 396 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:02.599 What happens is he he has by the time he 397 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:05.599 gets to Dodge City. And again we're talking about a 398 00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:09.359 very young man in his early twenties. He's already been 399 00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.279 an Indian fighter and a buffalo hunter, which means he's 400 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:17.759 used to using a gun, but he's never shot a man. 401 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.599