Speaker 1: Tonight, we're gonna be speaking with doctor Michael Heiser. Tonight's
Speaker 1: show is entitled The Divine Counsel of the Elohem, dealing
Speaker 1: with the scriptures and dealing with a lot of ancient
Speaker 1: Holy books. We hear the word elohean tossed to and fro.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have different interpretations about what that means. Tonight,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go straight to the scriptures and straight to
Speaker 1: the text. Doctor Michael Heiser is a He has a
Speaker 1: pH d in ancient Semitic languages, and we're gonna be
Speaker 1: uncovering some truths tonight because many people have a lot
Speaker 1: of different things to say. There's a lot of half
Speaker 1: truths in this field. There's a lot of partial truths,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think tonight we're gonna be getting
Speaker 1: into some deep information and a lot of people are listening.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have questions, so we're gonna be
Speaker 1: taking calls a little bit later. If you have any
Speaker 1: questions or comments for doctor Michael Heiser, Tonight is your
Speaker 1: chance to ask those questions. If you're listening via YouTube.
Speaker 1: I appreciate everybody holding me down over there and the
Speaker 1: show and everybody's sharing it on Facebook. It means so much.
Speaker 1: You guys motivate me to keep doing this without further ado.
Speaker 1: We're gonna welcome onto the show doctor Michael Heizer.
Speaker 2: Are you there, I'm here, Thank you.
Speaker 1: How's it going, brother?
Speaker 2: Very good? Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1: Pleasure Man. Been looking to speak with you for some
Speaker 1: time now. I've been following your work for the last
Speaker 1: couple of years and pretty amazed, pretty impressed with a
Speaker 1: lot of you work with breaking down the languages. You know,
Speaker 1: I can admit some of it. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: deep for me. Some of it is a little bit
Speaker 1: over my head, but I do understand the concepts, and
Speaker 1: tonight we want to kind of take some of the
Speaker 1: deep understandings and kind of break those down in a
Speaker 1: layman's term where someone who is just hearing these terms
Speaker 1: that we can just have a discussion where everybody can
Speaker 1: understand that. Is that fine tonight?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'll try not to be boring. I'll
Speaker 2: do my best.
Speaker 1: Do you get that a lot or is that just me?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, some of this stuff is it's tedious,
Speaker 2: you know, it's detailed. Yeah, but it's encouraging to hear
Speaker 2: you say that. The concepts are graspable, and that's that's
Speaker 2: what we shoot for. So we'll shoot for that tonight.
Speaker 1: I think when it comes to the Bible and it
Speaker 1: comes to you know, mainstream Christianity today, some of the
Speaker 1: work that you bring to the table, it's somewhat revolutionary
Speaker 1: to the mindset of Christianity. What types of feedback have
Speaker 1: you been getting from the mainstream church? I mean, do
Speaker 1: they look at you sideways? Do they look at you
Speaker 1: as the heretic? What's some of the feedback you've been
Speaker 1: getting by presenting some of your work.
Speaker 2: Well, I actually get that whole spectrum. It's a good question.
Speaker 2: I mean probably h you know, the first time people
Speaker 2: hear this sort of thing, they look at you like
Speaker 2: you got two heads. So I'm used to that. But
Speaker 2: there will also be you know, people that are patient
Speaker 2: and they'll follow you know, they they won't just sort
Speaker 2: of write you off after the first ten minutes, you know,
Speaker 2: and then they'll follow along, and then you know, it
Speaker 2: becomes a lot clearer and they can see, you know,
Speaker 2: why it's important to be you know, precise in your
Speaker 2: terminology and what's at stake, and and you know, really
Speaker 2: how it's sort of in a lot of ways. It
Speaker 2: doesn't change uh familiar doctrine, but uh it it really
Speaker 2: makes it a lot richer. There, there's it brings a
Speaker 2: cohesion to not only both Testaments, but things that are
Speaker 2: sort of scattered around the Old Testament that are kind
Speaker 2: of odd. But you know, it helps marry some of
Speaker 2: those things together in a coherent way. But you know,
Speaker 2: there there are some people out there that think I'm
Speaker 2: a heretic too, so we you know, we have to
Speaker 2: give them, give them some kudos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're going to give you. Not if yeah,
Speaker 1: if not on the show, they're going to get it
Speaker 1: on the message boards and the blogs and the YouTube
Speaker 1: comments and they're out.
Speaker 2: They're out. I mean, they're defending the faith as they
Speaker 2: understand it, and so I'm sympathetic to that. But you know,
Speaker 2: they need to realize that, you know, you need to
Speaker 2: get your you need to get your theology not from
Speaker 2: the English Bible. You need to be able to penetrate
Speaker 2: that and look at scripture for what it says and
Speaker 2: what it is and realize that the Bible wasn't given
Speaker 2: to us in English and there's something behind what they're
Speaker 2: looking at in the text, and it can be really
Speaker 2: helpful if we just resist thinking of the context of
Speaker 2: the Bible as the twenty first century. You know, it's
Speaker 2: not unless you're going back to the context of the
Speaker 2: people who wrote it. Any context you bring to it,
Speaker 2: whether it's the Reformation or the Catholic Church, or Evangelicalism
Speaker 2: or Protestantism, those are all alien contexts to the Bible.
Speaker 2: They are not the Biblical context. And that's the hurdle,
Speaker 2: the first hurdle that people sort of have to get over.
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the hardest ones too, is
Speaker 1: to it is, you know, is to actually read the
Speaker 1: scriptures and think that it's you know, speaking about you
Speaker 1: or written for you, and not understand that this was
Speaker 1: written to a people and four people who lived a
Speaker 1: very long time ago, as far as the prophecies and
Speaker 1: things like that. So that's what I want to get
Speaker 1: into tonight. I guess the first place we can start
Speaker 1: off is kind of a place where a lot of
Speaker 1: people start off in this subject is dealing with the
Speaker 1: word God in the Book of Genesis. What is that word?
Speaker 1: Because we hear that the word God is the word elohem,
Speaker 1: and it's actually plural and means more than one can
Speaker 1: you give us a breakdown on your understanding on that
Speaker 1: which you found?
Speaker 2: Sure. Eloheim is a very common word in the Hebrew Bible.
Speaker 2: It's a common noun. You know, it means God, divine
Speaker 2: being generally, but it's used as a proper name a
Speaker 2: lot by the Biblical writers, and so it becomes a
Speaker 2: specific name for the deity, the divine being, the God
Speaker 2: of Israel. But Eloheim is kind of like the word well,
Speaker 2: let me, let me just back up a second. Eloheim
Speaker 2: is spelled is shaped plural. The fancy word for that
Speaker 2: is morphology. Words have shapes. They there as a way
Speaker 2: that they are formed. If I take the word form
Speaker 2: fo r m and I add an S to it,
Speaker 2: I have changed its shape. I have changed its morphology.
Speaker 2: And depending on the context the word fo r ms,
Speaker 2: is that a noun like you're out on a job
Speaker 2: site pouring concrete into forms or filling out forms. Is
Speaker 2: it a noun or is it a verb? You know,
Speaker 2: this forms that you don't know until you put those
Speaker 2: letters that make up that word, until you put that
Speaker 2: word in a sentence. You have to give it some context.
Speaker 2: And eloheim is like that. So even though it's shaped plural,
Speaker 2: it can mean, and often does, and most often does
Speaker 2: it actually speaks of a singular entity. It's kind of
Speaker 2: like the word deer d e e r in English.
Speaker 2: You know, if I just looked at you, Derek and
Speaker 2: said deer, and I said, you know, followed that with
Speaker 2: a question, am I talking about one or more than one?
Speaker 2: But we have no way to answer the question because
Speaker 2: it's just d e e r. I'd have to put
Speaker 2: it in a sentence for you. And then you know,
Speaker 2: if I if I said, you know, the deer is
Speaker 2: in the field, you know that d e e r
Speaker 2: is speaking of only one because of the verb is
Speaker 2: yeah Eloheme's kind of like the word deer. I mean,
Speaker 2: you have to put it into a sentence for you
Speaker 2: to know what it means. And so even though it's
Speaker 2: spelled plural, it can mean singular and frankly, most of
Speaker 2: the time that it's used in the Hebrew Bible it
Speaker 2: refers to the singular God of Israel. Just in case
Speaker 2: people doubt that. And if your listeners, if they go
Speaker 2: to my website, it's just dr MSH dot com and
Speaker 2: then at the top they click on the link for
Speaker 2: Zechariah Sitchin. That's my sition is wrong dot com site,
Speaker 2: and once they're there, if they go to the Elohem tab,
Speaker 2: I actually have PDF files of the places where elohem
Speaker 2: is matched with a singular verb for example, or a
Speaker 2: plural verb to show how it's distinguished. So it's not
Speaker 2: very exciting, but you know, I want people to know
Speaker 2: I'm not making it up either.
Speaker 1: If anybody pulls out they're strongs accordance, that actually will
Speaker 1: tell you as well in there, I think I guess
Speaker 1: what we can move on now to is the fact
Speaker 1: that once we understand that the word eloheim is a
Speaker 1: plural term or can be a plural term and a
Speaker 1: name as well, But where does that fit into the Bible?
Speaker 1: Where does that fit into the context there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, every occurrence of Eloheim you have to look at
Speaker 2: its context, you know what it tells you. And in
Speaker 2: Genesis one one, for example, you know we have Eloheim,
Speaker 2: you know, creating the heavens and the earth. You know,
Speaker 2: bear Ashet barra Elohem, and then so on and so forth. Well,
Speaker 2: the verb that it goes with Barrah to create is
Speaker 2: grammatically singular for people who know Hebrew, it's just a
Speaker 2: cal form that's third masculine singular. That tells you right
Speaker 2: away that I need to take the word eloheim in
Speaker 2: terms of a singular meaning. So that's so that I
Speaker 2: have subject verb agreement. I mean, that's that's just the
Speaker 2: way a language works. That's with my illustration with deer,
Speaker 2: it's an illustration of subject verb agreement. The deer is
Speaker 2: in the field. The deer are in the field, and
Speaker 2: the grammar that's the context, the linguistic context. The grammatical
Speaker 2: context tells you how to understand the word. And so
Speaker 2: in the Hebrew Bible, this isn't difficult. You know, there
Speaker 2: are very few places where there could be ambiguity. You
Speaker 2: could probably count them on one hand with respect to
Speaker 2: the word elohem. So most of the time it just
Speaker 2: point blank tells you if you can get to the grammar,
Speaker 2: and people can get to the grammar if they know Hebrew,
Speaker 2: and if they have something like the company I work for,
Speaker 2: Logos creates called a reverse in or linear or good
Speaker 2: a good website that has morphological grammatical information attached to
Speaker 2: each word. You'll be able to tell whether in this
Speaker 2: case the verb is singular or not, and then you
Speaker 2: know you know how to take lohem. It just takes
Speaker 2: a little work. You have to kind of know what
Speaker 2: you're looking for.
Speaker 1: So we have Genesis chapter one, verse twenty six. This
Speaker 1: is kind of a popular one, and it reads, and
Speaker 1: God said, let us make man in our image after
Speaker 1: our likeness. Okay, so like what you were saying, and
Speaker 1: let us this this is actually meaning more than one.
Speaker 1: I know. The Christian doctrine says that this is the
Speaker 1: Father's Son in the Holy Spirit speaking. That's what they
Speaker 1: try to say. According to your findings, Is this a
Speaker 1: you know, a council of angels who are overcreating mankind
Speaker 1: or or is this the Supreme God speaking alone to
Speaker 1: the Father's son in the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2: Well, I would I would offer actually something different. Okay,
Speaker 2: aside from let's let's just walk through the verses here
Speaker 2: and if somebody again is on a website where they
Speaker 2: can get to the word level information, they can follow
Speaker 2: along here. But verse twenty six we have Eloheim said, well,
Speaker 2: let's look at the words said. Is it grammatically singular
Speaker 2: or plural? It's singular biomer against third masculine singular. So
Speaker 2: we have the singular God saying, and then here's what
Speaker 2: he says, let us make humankind in our image so
Speaker 2: we have a singular speaker. That's the God of the Bible,
Speaker 2: the God of Israel, singular speaker announcing to a group, Hey,
Speaker 2: let's do something. Let us make humankind in our image.
Speaker 2: So he's speaking to a group, and the question is, well,
Speaker 2: who's in the group, And you're right, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of Christians will take this as a reference to
Speaker 2: the Trinity, as though God is having a conversation with
Speaker 2: himself or the members of the Trinity. That could that
Speaker 2: could be workable here. But the problem with it is
Speaker 2: is if you take other scenes in the Bible where
Speaker 2: God is, you know, in his heavenly throne or in
Speaker 2: some other his divine abode in heaven, and he's speaking
Speaker 2: to a group of Elohim, for instance Psalm eighty two,
Speaker 2: you can't have the Trinity there because he's castigating the
Speaker 2: members of the heavenly host. The Divine council is the
Speaker 2: language that Psalmaty two uses. He's you know, reaming them
Speaker 2: out for being corrupt. Well, you know, obviously that can't
Speaker 2: be a Trinitarian context unless you want really terrible Christian
Speaker 2: theology there, you know, where you have the other members
Speaker 2: of the Trinity being sentenced to death. You're going to
Speaker 2: die like men. You're corrupt. You can't have that. And
Speaker 2: so you know you have this tension already. I think
Speaker 2: it's a lot easier, and frankly, it's in complete agreement
Speaker 2: with other parallels, other parallel texts to have. In Genesis
Speaker 2: one twenty six, God announcing to his heavenly host that hey,
Speaker 2: we're going to do this. We're going to create humankind
Speaker 2: in our image. And we can talk about the image
Speaker 2: if you want to. The image is not an attribute
Speaker 2: that we have. The image is really a status or
Speaker 2: a role that we have. And we have a role
Speaker 2: in God's planet and the divine beings of the heavenly host,
Speaker 2: the quote unquote angelic beings, they have a role to
Speaker 2: play in their sphere of authority. That's why it's plural there.
Speaker 2: But you keep going through the verse when you get
Speaker 2: to the creation part, you know, let us create human
Speaker 2: kind in our image after our likeness, so on and
Speaker 2: so forth. When you get to verse twenty seven, it
Speaker 2: says and God eloheim created human kind. Well, there's another
Speaker 2: verb created. Is it plural or singular? Again, it's a singular,
Speaker 2: So you only have one being the creator Okay, you
Speaker 2: only have one creator in Genesis one, twenty six and
Speaker 2: twenty seven, and that is the singular God of the Bible.
Speaker 2: And if you even go further in verse twenty seven,
Speaker 2: so God created humankind in his image there it singular
Speaker 2: or as his image and as his likeness. In his likeness,
Speaker 2: God created again Eloheim's singular verb Brah created him male
Speaker 2: and female, so on and so forth. So you have
Speaker 2: really both things going on, and you have more or
Speaker 2: less have to pick your way through the two verses
Speaker 2: to get the picture. God's announcing his intent, but he's
Speaker 2: the only one that's carrying out his own intent. It's
Speaker 2: like it'd be like if I said, U illustration a lot.
Speaker 2: If I if I'm at work and I walk into
Speaker 2: a room and I say, hey, let's get pizza. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm the singular speaker. There's only one of me. I'm
Speaker 2: announcing it to a group, and then we all get
Speaker 2: in the car. We go down to the pizza place.
Speaker 2: But I order the pizza and I pay for it. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm this single actor. But then the crowd with me,
Speaker 2: you know, get some benefit out of that. They participate,
Speaker 2: but only in sort of a peripheral secondary way. They're
Speaker 2: they're observing. In that case, they're eating with me. But
Speaker 2: you have the same thing going on in Genesis one
Speaker 2: twenty six and twenty seven.
Speaker 1: So at this point guenness is one twenty six we
Speaker 1: see God the Creator singular. He spoke, he said, let
Speaker 1: us make man in our image. So who is the
Speaker 1: us and who is the hour is? Though? Are those
Speaker 1: what we call the elohem? Are those the the other
Speaker 1: gods that he set up to rule as well and
Speaker 1: to help?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would say there they are the
Speaker 2: other members of the heavenly entourage or the heavenly host.
Speaker 2: This this actually really requires us to get to get
Speaker 2: into the term itself elohem so that people can can
Speaker 2: kind of parse this. All right, I want I want
Speaker 2: your your listeners to think about this, the word elohem.
Speaker 2: And again, if if they go up to either my
Speaker 2: site w w W the Divine Council d I V
Speaker 2: I N E Council c O U N C I
Speaker 2: L dot com, or they can go to d R
Speaker 2: M s H dot com and just find the link there.
Speaker 2: If they go up there, they'll what I'm gonna say,
Speaker 2: they can read. So if anybody taken notes or can't follow,
Speaker 2: just don't panic. So eloheim is actually used of four
Speaker 2: or five different things in the Bible. That's just that's
Speaker 2: that's important. Point number one. The Biblical writer uses the
Speaker 2: word elohem to describe five different entities, five different things.
Speaker 2: One is the God of Israel, that's the obvious one.
Speaker 2: Then there are the heavenly hosts, the members of the
Speaker 2: spiritual world like in Psalmity two, the plural eloheim, other
Speaker 2: divine beings that are in you know, God's presence with him.
Speaker 2: Then you have in Deuteronomy thirty two seventeen, you have
Speaker 2: the shadeem and that's usually translated demons. It actually it's
Speaker 2: probably closer to guardian spirits or something like that. You
Speaker 2: have them called Elohim in that verse Deuteronomy thirty two seventeen.
Speaker 2: Depending on how you understand Genesis thirty two the first
Speaker 2: couple verses and what event that refers back to, you
Speaker 2: could have angels referred to as Elohim. And then, lastly,
Speaker 2: in First Samuel twenty eight thirteen, when the medium at
Speaker 2: end or you know, is asked by Saul to bring
Speaker 2: Samuel up and lo and behold it actually works, she
Speaker 2: panics and says, I see an Elohim coming up out
Speaker 2: of the earth. And then Saul asks, well, what does
Speaker 2: he So he's only referring to one being, what does
Speaker 2: he look like? And then she describes him, Oh, yep,
Speaker 2: that's Samuel. Then they have a conversation and Samuel basically
Speaker 2: gives him a message from God that more or less says,
Speaker 2: your dynasty's done with your toast. So you have five
Speaker 2: different things referred to as Elohem. Now here's the question.
Speaker 2: Would the biblical writer understand that those five different things
Speaker 2: are not equal in attributes? In other words, would the
Speaker 2: biblical writer think that the spirit of a deceased person
Speaker 2: is on the same level in terms of attributes as
Speaker 2: the God of Israel, or that angels are on the
Speaker 2: same level, or that shadeem or on the same level
Speaker 2: as the God of Israel. Well, it's kind of obviously no,
Speaker 2: because everywhere else in the Bible there's a clear distinction.
Speaker 2: There are things that only the only God can do,
Speaker 2: and there are things that God is that no other
Speaker 2: entity is. So that tells you that to the biblical mind,
Speaker 2: the biblical writer Elohem did not refer to a unique
Speaker 2: set of attributes. But that's the problem because that's exactly
Speaker 2: the way we use good when we look at look,
Speaker 2: or write or say G O. D. We are so
Speaker 2: used to thinking of Good as a unique, singular being
Speaker 2: with attributes that no other being has, and so it's
Speaker 2: hard for it would be hard for us to use
Speaker 2: God of five different things and feel good about it
Speaker 2: because we attach attributes significance to the term. But that
Speaker 2: is not the way the biblical writer the Hebrew Bible
Speaker 2: uses elohem. It does not refer to a set of attributes.
Speaker 2: What it does refer to the reason that you have
Speaker 2: five these things you know spoken of with the same
Speaker 2: term with eloheim is eloheim is what I like to
Speaker 2: call a place of residence termed. It doesn't tell you
Speaker 2: what a thing is. It tells you where a thing belongs,
Speaker 2: or where a thing is from where it lives. So
Speaker 2: to speak, elohem are beings that by nature are disembodied,
Speaker 2: and they inhabit this thing we call the spiritual world.
Speaker 2: That's all it means. If I want to describe a
Speaker 2: being that it does not, you know, belong to the
Speaker 2: human realm. It's not enfleshed, and it's by nature disembodied.
Speaker 2: It's not human, Okay, it's none of these things that
Speaker 2: we are. If I want to use a word to
Speaker 2: describe any being that fits that address, I would use Alohem.
Speaker 2: That's what it is. Now when you're in the spiritual world,
Speaker 2: you know, if we can imagine ourselves over there on
Speaker 2: the other side, so to speak, in that world, there
Speaker 2: is rank, there is hierarchy, there is differentiation and attributes.
Speaker 2: That's why I like to say in the things that
Speaker 2: I've written that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is an Alohem,
Speaker 2: but no other Elohem is him. He is unique, he
Speaker 2: is species unique among the aloheim. Think about our world.
Speaker 2: We're all humans. But yet in the human world, while
Speaker 2: we are all humans, there's lots of differences between us,
Speaker 2: you know, there's differences in attributes, in skill sets, you know,
Speaker 2: in really physical ability. We have differences all over the
Speaker 2: place within the human population. But nevertheless, we are still
Speaker 2: all human. That term defines the realm to which we belong,
Speaker 2: the species to which we belong, and Alohem works that way.
Speaker 2: But again, the problem is is we're so used to
Speaker 2: thinking of Elohim and the way we think of as geo,
Speaker 2: the way we think of good. You know, we assign
Speaker 2: a set of attributes to it, and then people freak out,
Speaker 2: you know, when I'm you know, in a church or
Speaker 2: something or on the on the web or whatever, and say, look,
Speaker 2: you know, you've got to do something with this. The
Speaker 2: Biblical writers using loheem of four or five other things,
Speaker 2: you know, and they're not all the same level of
Speaker 2: the God of Israel, but they're all alohem. So you know,
Speaker 2: if they're patient again to hear out the explanation of
Speaker 2: what the term actually means, how the biblical writer actually
Speaker 2: uses it, it's comprehensible. But as soon as you even
Speaker 2: get to that point, it's, oh, you're a polytheist. You know,
Speaker 2: you're a heretic, and blah blah, blah blah blah. You know,
Speaker 2: and I'm again, I'm just used to it now, and
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm just I'm tired of protecting people
Speaker 2: from their Bible.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm just not going to do it anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think it's pretty I think it's pretty
Speaker 1: plain from what you've shown just those couple of scriptures.
Speaker 1: I mean, we see Eloheim as a divine father. We
Speaker 1: see the word used when mentioning demonic spirits in a
Speaker 1: sense devils, and we see the word used when you
Speaker 1: when it's talking about spirits, and we see it when
Speaker 1: it's talking about angels. So just there, from what you've shared,
Speaker 1: I think could be you know, pretty simple for anybody
Speaker 1: to grasp the context and not grasp the tradition and
Speaker 1: find out what it's talking about and seeing that there's
Speaker 1: a little bit more to it than just God it.
Speaker 1: You know, the word God is the supreme, most high
Speaker 1: in every case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't well, I don't want to. I don't
Speaker 2: want to sound too too harsh here, but you know,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who just if if
Speaker 2: they if I didn't hear this from my pastor, I
Speaker 2: didn't hear this from my pastor's pastor my parents past
Speaker 2: or my parents or whatever, I never heard this before,
Speaker 2: therefore ergo, uh, it must be wrong. I mean, you
Speaker 2: have a lot of people that that really don't want
Speaker 2: to They don't want to abandon what this sense of
Speaker 2: security they have associated with tradition. And I understand that,
Speaker 2: but I think you know, we as as believers, we
Speaker 2: need to get to the point and there is a
Speaker 2: price to pay for it. I can tell you first hand,
Speaker 2: But you need to get to the point where you
Speaker 2: value the scripture more than your tradition, and that that
Speaker 2: is a difficult thing to do because it will put
Speaker 2: you at risk of, you know, being judged or maligned
Speaker 2: or misunderstood or at best tolerated. You know, and you
Speaker 2: don't want your relationships to just be tolerated. I mean,
Speaker 2: you want to want people to trust you. You want
Speaker 2: to have good friendships and things like that. And but
Speaker 2: you know, when push comes to shove, where are your
Speaker 2: loyalties are they? Are they with the text or are
Speaker 2: they with what people say about the text? And it's
Speaker 2: not like those are always in disagreement. They're not, but
Speaker 2: there are times when there's a disconnect and you've got
Speaker 2: to make these choices.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it does also leave you know, the seeker
Speaker 1: open to actually have to admit that he was wrong.
Speaker 1: Whenever you're seeking something, or whenever you have this doctrine
Speaker 1: that you you know, you may have been teaching for years,
Speaker 1: you may have taught many people, and then you have to,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to humble yourself and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I taught many people this doctrine, but I was wrong.
Speaker 1: And whenever you're you know, in this this seat of authority,
Speaker 1: especially when dealing with, you know, people's eternal salvation. It's
Speaker 1: a really touchy subject for you to say, hey, I
Speaker 1: was wrong, you know, for you to actually have to
Speaker 1: renounce what you was teaching. So you have to be humbling,
Speaker 1: you have to be a real student of the world.
Speaker 1: And not many people are willing to do that because
Speaker 1: I guess for the most part, it's going to show
Speaker 1: that you're human in it and that you do make mistakes.
Speaker 2: But when pastors are mortals. Look, look what a lesson.
Speaker 2: Pastors are mortals. You know. I would hope that that
Speaker 2: people who are in positions of authority that they're people,
Speaker 2: understand that that the pastors on on the journey too.
Speaker 2: He might be farther down the road in some respects,
Speaker 2: but again, they're they're just they're just people. But the
Speaker 2: problem is that if you've been teaching your people to
Speaker 2: put you on a pedestal, well, then then then you've
Speaker 2: got more invested than then let's let's just do let's
Speaker 2: just back up here a little bit and correct ourselves
Speaker 2: and then we'll move on. I mean, so it's it's
Speaker 2: kind of a vicious circle that you get into. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've had to, you know, tell people, Hey, you know
Speaker 2: I was wrong about this, that and anything. That's not
Speaker 2: a unique experience because I wasn't. I wasn't born talking
Speaker 2: about the Divine Council. You know, when I became a
Speaker 2: believer as a teenager, I don't know anything about anything.
Speaker 2: I mean, I I was strung with who Adam and
Speaker 2: Eve were.
Speaker 3: You know it just yeah, I didn't know anything, and
Speaker 3: you just you kind of you go along. And again
Speaker 3: I for some reason, I can't pinpoint to some great
Speaker 3: decision I made or you know, some some mountaintop experience here,
Speaker 3: but at some point it just became more important to
Speaker 3: me to affirm this thing that we that we say
Speaker 3: we believe is from God inspired more than what people
Speaker 3: say about it. That just clicked in my head one
Speaker 3: day and I again, I can't point to a time
Speaker 3: or place, but it it was that sense was just
Speaker 3: there and I figured, Hey, when when the dust clears,
Speaker 3: you know, God will still be standing and so the
Speaker 3: word and I might get beat up a little bit,
Speaker 3: but you.
Speaker 2: Know, we'll we'll get over that hump. And you know,
Speaker 2: if God can't you know, fix the situation, whatever the
Speaker 2: situation I'm in. And that doesn't say too much for
Speaker 2: his ability, does it? You know, you just have to
Speaker 2: have to trust him with that. And but there's there
Speaker 2: is a price to pay, you know, And but it's
Speaker 2: it's wonderful to not have anybody own your mind, you know,
Speaker 2: just just to not be owned in that way and
Speaker 2: be able to be honest with people, whether they agree
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: When we talk about the Psalm eighty eighty two, verse one,
Speaker 1: God standeth in the congregation of the Mighty. He judges
Speaker 1: among the gods. Whenever we read that, who are these gods?
Speaker 1: What did they do? Because I've heard many different things
Speaker 1: and and you know that's why I wanted to get
Speaker 1: you on a show. Are these the principalities that we're
Speaker 1: reading about that are over certain areas? Who sinned? Or
Speaker 1: you know, who are these gods that he's speaking of here?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that I think we get a clue
Speaker 2: in the last verse of this psalm where the Psalm says,
Speaker 2: rise up, Oh Elohim, Rise up, o God, and you know,
Speaker 2: judge the earth, you know, for you you know, this
Speaker 2: is your inheritance. I mean, you're inheriting over all the nations.
Speaker 2: The nations are your possession. And that language about again
Speaker 2: this inheritance of the nations, and all that sort of
Speaker 2: thing gives us a clue as to what is going on,
Speaker 2: because that language draws on Deuteronomy thirty two, eight and nine,
Speaker 2: Verses eight and nine. And if your audience, people in
Speaker 2: your audience, have never seen this verse, this is one
Speaker 2: of the key verses for understanding really the whole worldview
Speaker 2: of the Old Testament. And I would say also a
Speaker 2: lot of what's going on in the New Testament too.
Speaker 2: And verse eight in Deuteronomy thirty two says, I'm reading
Speaker 2: from the ESV in case anybody wants to know when
Speaker 2: the Most High, we know that that is, gave the
Speaker 2: nations their inheritance when he divided humankind. Now you know
Speaker 2: when when did that happen? When did God divide up
Speaker 2: the nations? Well, that was the Tower of Babble. We
Speaker 2: know the story. When he did that, he fixed the
Speaker 2: borders of the peoples according to the number of the
Speaker 2: sons of God. Now, a lot of English translations here
Speaker 2: will read according to the number of the sons of Israel.
Speaker 2: So there's a very clear difference here. Now, the ESV
Speaker 2: is one of the few translations. The New RSV is
Speaker 2: another one. The NLT. I think the latest version has
Speaker 2: this as well. The ESV reading comes from the Dead
Speaker 2: Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls here read the beneja
Speaker 2: Elohim the Sons of God, So it is the most
Speaker 2: textually up to date reading. Now you don't have to
Speaker 2: be a text critic though, to know that this is
Speaker 2: the correct reading, if you just think about what the
Speaker 2: verse said as when the most I gave the nations
Speaker 2: their inheritance, he divides up human humankind. He fixes the
Speaker 2: borders of the people according to the number of the
Speaker 2: Sons of God. Why isn't it the sons of Israel
Speaker 2: because Israel didn't exist as a nation. Back at the
Speaker 2: Tower of Babel event there was no Israel. So again
Speaker 2: I don't want to really drift. We can go into
Speaker 2: all the text critical reasons why you know, in terms
Speaker 2: of manuscript studies, why Sons of God is the best reading.
Speaker 2: But I think if you just used common sense here
Speaker 2: in a biblical sense, it can't be sons of Israel
Speaker 2: because Israel didn't exist. If you go back to the
Speaker 2: Table of Nations in Genesis ten, you know which leads
Speaker 2: up to the Tower of Babel event when the nations
Speaker 2: are listed. Israel does not occur in the Table of Nations.
Speaker 2: Why because it doesn't exist yet. What this is describing
Speaker 2: is the Tower of Babel event, when when you know
Speaker 2: God has given this commission, here we are. We came
Speaker 2: out of the flood, God says before fill of multiply
Speaker 2: spread over the earth and all this stuff. And so
Speaker 2: what do they do. Well, let's let's go build a tower.
Speaker 2: You know, there'll be some gathering point and give ourselves
Speaker 2: a great reputation. And they don't do what they're supposed
Speaker 2: to do. And so God says, okay, you know, if
Speaker 2: we let this go again, speaking in the plural, you know,
Speaker 2: to to the council again in Genesis eleven, let us
Speaker 2: go down and take a look. But then when you
Speaker 2: actually see who goes down, it's it's Yahweh. It's the
Speaker 2: God of Israel. It's a singular entity. Looking at this,
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, they're not going to obey. So here's
Speaker 2: what we're gonna do. We're gonna split them up. We're
Speaker 2: gonna confuse the languages, divide up the nations. I refer
Speaker 2: to this as the Romans One event of the Old Testament,
Speaker 2: where God says look, you don't want to obey me,
Speaker 2: you don't want me to be your God. Fine, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna scatter you. And what I'm gonna do is I'm
Speaker 2: gonna assign each nation to another divine being, to one
Speaker 2: of the sons of God. And if you go to
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy four, Deuteronomy four nineteen and twenty is the parallel
Speaker 2: passage to this. If you look at the language there,
Speaker 2: it's actually sort of the flip side of the coin.
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy four says, beware lest you raise your eyes to
Speaker 2: heaven when you see the sun, moon, and stars, all
Speaker 2: the host of heaven, and you be drawn away and
Speaker 2: bowed down to them. He's telling, you know, Moses, through Moses,
Speaker 2: all of Israel, don't you know, don't do this, you know,
Speaker 2: don't get distracted and bowed down to the sun, moon
Speaker 2: and stars. Because verse nineteen, these are the things that
Speaker 2: the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples
Speaker 2: under the whole heaven. But the Lord has taken you
Speaker 2: and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt.
Speaker 2: So it's the same language as Deuteronomy thirty two. You
Speaker 2: go back to Deuteronomy thirty two eight, God divides the nations.
Speaker 2: In verse eight and verse nine, he says, yeah, I
Speaker 2: just split everybody up a corner of the number of
Speaker 2: the sons of God. But the Lord's my portion is
Speaker 2: his people, Jacob, his allotted heritage. So this episode again
Speaker 2: what we think of as the Tower Babble. This episode
Speaker 2: is a watershed event in the Old Testament and in
Speaker 2: Biblical theology where God disinherits the nations, the peoples of
Speaker 2: the earth, and says, Okay, you don't want me to
Speaker 2: be your God, I'm gonna put you under lesser authorities.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna relate to you personally. What I'm gonna
Speaker 2: do is, I'm gonna go over to Orr and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna call this guy called Abraham or Abram, and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna start over. I'm gonna start with one guy, and
Speaker 2: I'm gonna raise up for myself a new people. And
Speaker 2: to make it even more spectacular, this guy's old and
Speaker 2: so is his wife. So I'm gonna do something supernatural,
Speaker 2: something spectacular. I'm gonna literally start with nothing, and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna make my own people. And the rest of the
Speaker 2: Old Testament is the story of that people, Israel against
Speaker 2: the other nations and Israel's God, Yeahweh against the other gods.
Speaker 2: What happens and what he's referring to in Psalmity too,
Speaker 2: when God appoints the other nations to the sons of
Speaker 2: God and he points the sons of God to the
Speaker 2: other nations, against both sides of the same coin. He
Speaker 2: is still the creator, He is still the lawgiver, He
Speaker 2: is still the Lord of justice. He expects that his underlings,
Speaker 2: even though they're divine beings, even though they're Elohim, they're
Speaker 2: lesser Eloheim. He expects them to rule righteously according to
Speaker 2: the way their creator rules because they share his image.
Speaker 2: Let us create humankind in our image. They're supposed to
Speaker 2: do what he says in their realm of authority. And
Speaker 2: from Psalmity too, it's very plain that they become corrupt,
Speaker 2: they do something, they mismanage, they abuse the situation, you know, personally,
Speaker 2: I think, and elsewhere in the Old Testament we have
Speaker 2: an indication that one of the things that that was
Speaker 2: offensive was the idea that they would accept worship, you know,
Speaker 2: from these other peoples as in the place of Yahweh.
Speaker 2: I mean, all these different things. And and Israel was
Speaker 2: supposed to be, you know, the kingdom of priests idea,
Speaker 2: that's sort of the conduit, the you know, the the
Speaker 2: light out there in the wilderness that would alert people,
Speaker 2: would would would would be some sort of teaching mechanism
Speaker 2: as to who the true God was, and then you know,
Speaker 2: a path back to him through the nation of Israel,
Speaker 2: ultimately of course, through the Messiah. But all of this
Speaker 2: just gets just gets messed up, and the nations that
Speaker 2: were given over to lesser administrators get farther away from
Speaker 2: God as time goes on, both because of their own,
Speaker 2: you know, feudal minds, as Paul says, and also because
Speaker 2: again they're they're manipulated by other divine beings. So take
Speaker 2: all that and the answer to your question is, I
Speaker 2: do think that what we have in the New Testament language.
Speaker 2: Think about some of the terms you use principalities and powers.
Speaker 2: You also have dominions, you have thrones, you have rulers,
Speaker 2: you have authorities.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: The other another term is stoy ka, the the elemental principles,
Speaker 2: the elements. It's that one's a little more abstract. But
Speaker 2: these terms are rulership terms, they are authority terms. They
Speaker 2: refer in some way to to some sort of dominion
Speaker 2: over some government like like a yeah, like a governing
Speaker 2: bureaucracy structure something or other.
Speaker 4: You know that.
Speaker 2: It's kind of a mystery in terms of New Testament
Speaker 2: theology whether you can sort of create a coherent hierarchy
Speaker 2: out of the New Testament terms. There's actually a lot
Speaker 2: of debate on that, And personally I don't I don't
Speaker 2: think you can clearly do that. I think you can
Speaker 2: get some that are more you know, above others, but
Speaker 2: I don't think you can get a whole hierarchy out
Speaker 2: of it. But I think Paul's point in using language
Speaker 2: like that is to you know, stick a bug in
Speaker 2: our ear for this whole sort of setup in the
Speaker 2: Old Testament where the nations, those who are not believers,
Speaker 2: those who are not Yahweh's people are under the dominion
Speaker 2: of something else. That is the story of the Old Testament.
Speaker 2: God gives them up, but he doesn't give them up permanently.
Speaker 2: He hasn't just abandoned them forever. Even the Abrahamic Covenant
Speaker 2: Genesis twelve, when God does go to Abraham, he says, look,
Speaker 2: I'm going to make you a great nation. And you know,
Speaker 2: multiply you blah blah blah blah blah. And he says,
Speaker 2: you know, those who bless you, I will bless those
Speaker 2: who curse you. I will curse through you all nations,
Speaker 2: all families of the earth will be blessed. Caman. He
Speaker 2: doesn't completely write them off. But the key to all
Speaker 2: this again is to is to come back through Israel,
Speaker 2: to relate to God the way he wants to be
Speaker 2: related to, to become part of the people of God.
Speaker 2: To you know, you look at what Paul does, Like
Speaker 2: in Galatians. Paul says in Galatians three, you know, he
Speaker 2: really really goes after the Galatians for this. He says, Oh,
Speaker 2: foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? It was before your
Speaker 2: eyes that Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified, and he's
Speaker 2: having begun the spirit, and you're now perfected by the flesh,
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. He goes, Look, what
Speaker 2: are you doing? How in the world can you believe
Speaker 2: the Gospel and then want to go back, okay, and
Speaker 2: put yourself under the dominion of the things that you
Speaker 2: just broke a relationship with. Again, Paul uses all this
Speaker 2: this sort of dominion relational language when he talks about
Speaker 2: the gospel, because the fundamental issue is which God are
Speaker 2: you loyal to? Where is your faith? Who do you follow?
Speaker 2: Where is your allegiance? You know, we can talk about
Speaker 2: nitty gritty theological questions, and I'm concerned about those, Paul says,
Speaker 2: but here's the fundamental issue. Who are you an allegiance to?
Speaker 2: And that's very old Testament in its thought processes because
Speaker 2: of this whole event, you know, with Deuteronomy thirty two,
Speaker 2: Fallo eighty two, all this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, before we go any further, I want to
Speaker 1: address the scripture just a little bit deeper so we
Speaker 1: can kind of paint a picture before we move a
Speaker 1: little bit further about these principalities and some of the
Speaker 1: things that they've done and some of the things that
Speaker 1: they're doing even to this day. First of all, I
Speaker 1: want to say, I guess basically thank you because the
Speaker 1: way you broke that down was just so simple, precise
Speaker 1: where anybody can understand that. And if you're lost at
Speaker 1: this point, you know, I encourage you to rewind the
Speaker 1: episode and listen to it again, because if you follow
Speaker 1: it along with the scriptures, you will see the picture
Speaker 1: that he's painting is right there in front of you.
Speaker 1: But for some reason over the years, you know, it's
Speaker 1: just been kind of hidden from people because I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's the Church has certain doctrines that they
Speaker 1: want to keep away from people or what. But it's
Speaker 1: right there, So it's very beautiful. But Deuteronomy chapter thirty two,
Speaker 1: verse nine, as we move a little bit further, because
Speaker 1: I've heard the terms in the past and I've done
Speaker 1: some research on it, I guess I want to ask
Speaker 1: your validity on this. We see here in verse eight
Speaker 1: Deuteronomy thirty two eight, when the Most High divide it
Speaker 1: to the nations, we see the most High and this
Speaker 1: same terminology as mentioned in Genesis chapter one. And then
Speaker 1: we go to Deuteronomy thirty two nine for the Lord's portion, lords, capital.
Speaker 1: Are these separate entities when we're speaking of Lord, God, God,
Speaker 1: Most High? Are these different gods that we'll speaking you know?
Speaker 1: Or is just different titles for the One True God?
Speaker 2: Well, the most High is Hebrew el yone that that
Speaker 2: does not occur in the Creation passage, that's Eloheme. In fact,
Speaker 2: the earliest reference to el Yon is in Genesis fourteen
Speaker 2: when Abraham is with Melchizedek priest you knows, priest of
Speaker 2: the Most High God, the same terminology there at el yone. Yeah.
Speaker 2: In academic scholarship, there's a there's a big debate, you know,
Speaker 2: over is this language indicative of of there's a most
Speaker 2: High deity el Yon and then sort of Yahweh is
Speaker 2: is sort of an inferior or sub sub deity, where
Speaker 2: it's el Yon dividing up the nations, and then Yahweh
Speaker 2: gets a peace along with the other sons of God.
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy thirty two eight on. On the surface can sound
Speaker 2: like that. Okay, if you view it in isolation, you
Speaker 2: could argue that position. The problem is is when you
Speaker 2: go over to Deuteronomy four again the parallel passage, you
Speaker 2: don't have el Yon again dispensing the nations to the
Speaker 2: sons of God, one of whom is Yahweh. You only
Speaker 2: have Yahweh there. And specifically, if you go back to
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy four nineteen, he says, these are the things that Yahweh,
Speaker 2: your God, Yahweh Elohim, the Lord, your God, has allotted
Speaker 2: to all the peoples. There you have Yahweh doing the
Speaker 2: dispensing and in verse twenty, the Lord Yahweh has taken
Speaker 2: you and brought you out of the iron. In other words,
Speaker 2: the clear actor, the clear dispenser in the passage in
Speaker 2: Deuteronomy four is the God of Israel is Yahweh, the
Speaker 2: God of Israel. So Deuteronomy thirty two you could, again,
Speaker 2: if you just isolate it, you could think, well that
Speaker 2: you know, we have a Yahweh as sort of an
Speaker 2: inferior there among others. You can't get that in Deuteronomy
Speaker 2: four at all. So let's go back to Deuteronomy thirty two.
Speaker 2: Then this gets a little hairy again for the sake
Speaker 2: of the audience. But in Semitic scholarship, if you go
Speaker 2: to the two prior verses Deuteronomy thirty two, six and seven,
Speaker 2: you have some phrases there used of the Canaanite high
Speaker 2: god okay l is the high God of Canaan, that
Speaker 2: are used of Yahweh. And so there are other scholars
Speaker 2: who would say, no, we don't have two separate deities here,
Speaker 2: one that's most high, that occupies the top position, and
Speaker 2: then Yahweh is underneath him, because if you go back
Speaker 2: to verses six and seven, Yahweh is used in verse six,
Speaker 2: and then he's described in ways that the Canaanite High
Speaker 2: God is, and so that would argue that Yahweh is
Speaker 2: viewed here in Deuteronomy thirty two as the high God,
Speaker 2: and so most High is just a title for Yahweh
Speaker 2: in these verses.
Speaker 1: If you keep.
Speaker 2: Going in Deuteronomy thirty two, you don't have any reference
Speaker 2: to again, the Most High. You have consistent references to Yahweh.
Speaker 2: So it's getting a little esoteric. But you know your audience,
Speaker 2: you know, should know that this discussion does occur among scholars.
Speaker 2: I don't believe that we have two distinct, separate deities
Speaker 2: here or in Psalmaty two, because some will try to
Speaker 2: take this argument from Deuteronomy thirty two and then import
Speaker 2: it into Psalm eighty two. If you have somebody out
Speaker 2: in your audience that really is into this and wants
Speaker 2: to really get into the details of it. Again, if
Speaker 2: people go up to my website just dr MSH dot
Speaker 2: com and then click on the link to my biblical
Speaker 2: studies blog, it's called the Naked Bible, or you could
Speaker 2: go to Naked bibleblog dot com. When you're on that
Speaker 2: the Naked Bible site, I have a link on that
Speaker 2: site to this discussion. It'll just say something like Divine
Speaker 2: Council or Psalmity too. Let me just take a quick
Speaker 2: look at it, so I don't want to mislead anybody here.
Speaker 2: You go to Naked Bible, there's a tab that says
Speaker 2: Divine Council, and if you click on that, there's a
Speaker 2: whole list of posts that I've done on this, and
Speaker 2: also some papers that I've given at academic conferences that
Speaker 2: go into excruciating detail. It'll probably be overkill for a
Speaker 2: lot of people, but just in case there's that one
Speaker 2: person out there that just loves the gory details, that's
Speaker 2: where you'll get them.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of different aspects that we can
Speaker 1: approach this from, and I think you've painted an awesome picture.
Speaker 1: When we get back to Psalmity two God stands in
Speaker 1: a congregation of the mighty. He judges among the gods. Okay,
Speaker 1: then we go down and we see we can go
Speaker 1: to are six. It says I have said, ye are gods,
Speaker 1: and all of you are children of the most High God.
Speaker 1: But ye shall die like men and fall like one
Speaker 1: of the princes. Can you give us a little bit
Speaker 1: of you know, detail on that is just talk. I
Speaker 1: guess when it mentions princess, is just talking about some
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some former principalities or just talking about men.
Speaker 2: That's really that's really an interesting term. You know, verse six,
Speaker 2: you know you are Elohim, you plural against a plural
Speaker 2: pronoun or eloheim, So that harkens back to verse one.
Speaker 2: The plural eloheim in the count sons of the Most
Speaker 2: High again picks up, you know, hearkens back to the
Speaker 2: ear of Deuteronomy thirty two, just like the end of
Speaker 2: the verse does, so that the context is clear there's
Speaker 2: a link here between the two. And then you get
Speaker 2: to this nevertheless, like Adam you shall die again. There's
Speaker 2: a number number of ways as you can go with that.
Speaker 2: You can say it refers to humankind generally, some would
Speaker 2: would wonder does it refer to Adam because both of
Speaker 2: those though, would speak to humanity either way. And then
Speaker 2: you get this fall like any prince, and the prince
Speaker 2: is the more interesting term here. We have it's a
Speaker 2: generic term sar. It's plural here sarem prince, and it's
Speaker 2: used widely through the Hebrew Bible for human princes, and
Speaker 2: that would make sense because if we're looking at it
Speaker 2: in terms of catch the term, if we're looking at
Speaker 2: the two lines of verse seven as being in synonymous parallelism,
Speaker 2: that the first line says one thing and the second
Speaker 2: line says the same thing in a slightly different way,
Speaker 2: then you would say, oh, well, the princes are human here.
Speaker 2: But sar is also used, like in Daniel ten of
Speaker 2: the again using a New Testament term here, that the principalities,
Speaker 2: the divine beings that are set over the nations now.
Speaker 2: And that makes it a little interesting because then you
Speaker 2: would have sort of an antithesis between the two lines.
Speaker 2: The other thing is and again this gets a little
Speaker 2: nitty gritty here the term itself, we assume it's from
Speaker 2: the noun sar, and then we have a plural saaream.
Speaker 2: It might be the case that instead of the noun
Speaker 2: sar here we actually have a different route that means
Speaker 2: in certain Canaanite dialects to shine, And you could actually
Speaker 2: have here fall like the shining ones or something like that.
Speaker 2: Again that would speak, you know, again to divine beings.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's it's clear. What I do think
Speaker 2: is clear, though, is is that the elohem, the plural
Speaker 2: plural elohem here are put under the sentence of losing
Speaker 2: their immortality. Uh, they have contingent immortality, just like human beings,
Speaker 2: you know, the the our human spirits, if you want
Speaker 2: to use that terminology. You know, we we have contingent immortality.
Speaker 2: And what that means is that we will you know,
Speaker 2: live forever for forever, excuse me, unless God decides otherwise.
Speaker 2: In other words, we don't we don't have that attribute
Speaker 2: in and of ourselves. It's not ours to control. It's
Speaker 2: contingent on the the goodness and the will of God.
Speaker 2: If God decides that I'm doing away with that and
Speaker 2: with you, then well then that that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: So the elohem here, there's going to come a point
Speaker 2: where their immortality is stripped from them. I take this
Speaker 2: as a reference to a time future. I take this
Speaker 2: as es scatological because the final reinheritance or the reclamation
Speaker 2: of the nations is only going to happen at the
Speaker 2: day of the Lord again at the time future. So
Speaker 2: I think they're connected here. But I will say that
Speaker 2: you could argue for divine beings here. I'm probably sixty
Speaker 2: forty in favor of the human interpretation, but there's enough
Speaker 2: that makes me wonder whether there might be something else
Speaker 2: going on, or we might have a case of double
Speaker 2: enton here, because that does happen in the Bible like
Speaker 2: any other literature.
Speaker 1: Okay, So if we look at this in a proper
Speaker 1: biblical timeline, and the term you just mentioned the day
Speaker 1: of the Lord, that's referring to the second coming of Christ,
Speaker 1: when he comes back to set up his dominion and
Speaker 1: to inherit all the nations, then we have But I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: gods and sad you are all children of the most High,
Speaker 1: but you shall die like men. This is an event
Speaker 1: that's going to take place when Christ comes back, when
Speaker 1: he comes to this to you know, destroy these guys
Speaker 1: and basically knock them off their pedestal and set up
Speaker 1: his kingdom so that these other guys aren't getting worship anymore.
Speaker 1: This isn't something that already happened, correct, This is something
Speaker 1: that's coming when Christ comes back. Is that correct?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would I would say that's correct, and that
Speaker 2: that really feeds into New Testament theology because there are
Speaker 2: a number of things that that Jesus does, and he
Speaker 2: says and and even more importantly, where he's at when
Speaker 2: he does or says them that harken back to what's
Speaker 2: going on here. Let me let me just give you
Speaker 2: one example, and you know, Luke, the first time that
Speaker 2: Jesus sends out disciples, now he's you know, he's he's
Speaker 2: sort of operated anonymously. And then there are a few
Speaker 2: events that that change that where he begins uh sort
Speaker 2: of the public acclamation that the Kingdom of God is here,
Speaker 2: and the kingdom only does not only refer to a
Speaker 2: future earthly kingdom, there is a spiritual kingdom as well.
Speaker 2: That they both operate. They're both just as real as
Speaker 2: the other one, and they operate in tandem, so that
Speaker 2: the Kingdom of God is inaugurated. It's begun at jesus
Speaker 2: first coming, his first advent, and when he starts announcing
Speaker 2: that it's in conjunction with believe it or not exorcisms, okay,
Speaker 2: to conversations and defeats of demonic entities. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that he does the first time he sends
Speaker 2: out disciples, how many does he send out? He sends
Speaker 2: out seventy okay, and seventy or seventy two. You have
Speaker 2: and I don't want to get too far into why
Speaker 2: there's an issue there, but seventy or seventy two. It's
Speaker 2: tied to the way you would count the nations back
Speaker 2: in Genesis tenth. The nations there you have seventy. And
Speaker 2: so when Jesus says, look, I'm going to give you
Speaker 2: power over these spiritual beings. You're going to be able
Speaker 2: to cast them out, You're going to be able to
Speaker 2: exert power over them. And I'm going to send you
Speaker 2: out two by two and there are seventy of you.
Speaker 2: That telegraphs that the time to reclaim the nations the world,
Speaker 2: every nation, you know, out of every nation, you know,
Speaker 2: God wants to own every nation, out of every nation.
Speaker 2: There's going to be people of God, you know, jew
Speaker 2: and gentile distinction is going to be erased real shortli
Speaker 2: here after the crucifixion. But he sends out seventy and
Speaker 2: so it's a signal for those who are sort of
Speaker 2: in tune in terms of biblical theology that this is
Speaker 2: the beginning of reclaiming, reinheriting the nations. And it's linked
Speaker 2: to the person of Christ, it's linked to what he's
Speaker 2: here to do. And so again that it starts there,
Speaker 2: but it's going to have its ultimate s scatological fulfillment
Speaker 2: when the Lord does return. And as the Book of
Speaker 2: Revelation says, you know, speaking to believers, he that overcomes,
Speaker 2: I will put over the nations. Okay, believers, we can
Speaker 2: go so many places with this conversation here.
Speaker 1: Yes, So it's so, it's so, you know, like you said,
Speaker 1: it's it's esoteric, it's complex, it's beautiful, it's so much
Speaker 1: more than what we've been taught. You know, Well why
Speaker 1: do we Why? I know?
Speaker 2: John says, behold, but matter of love, the Father has
Speaker 2: bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons
Speaker 2: of God. And then he adds, and that's what we
Speaker 2: are in first John three. Why does Paul use adoption
Speaker 2: language adopting us into the family of God? Why does
Speaker 2: he why does he refer to us as sons and
Speaker 2: daughters of God? Why does he use family language? I mean,
Speaker 2: all this stuff going on. Why is it that John
Speaker 2: in Revelation says, look to him that overcomes, I will
Speaker 2: put you over the nations. It's because we believers, the
Speaker 2: people of God, the sons of God. We when we
Speaker 2: are glorified and exalted, we are going to displace and
Speaker 2: replace the fallen, the corrupt beings that are currently over
Speaker 2: the nations. We are the reconstituted Council of God. You
Speaker 2: go to Hebrews too, Jesus, you know this is this
Speaker 2: is one of the you know, there there are some
Speaker 2: passages that you know, I personally just get emotional about,
Speaker 2: and this is one of them. In Hebrews too, where
Speaker 2: where they're in the throne. Jesus is in the throne
Speaker 2: of God and he's announcing, you know, he he's he's
Speaker 2: telling the congregation, the council. You know, these are my brothers.
Speaker 2: He's referring to believers as his brothers in front of
Speaker 2: the Divine Council, in front of the congregation. They are mine,
Speaker 2: I am, I'm their brother. There were fan Emily. Okay,
Speaker 2: all this language, you know, Hebrews one and two. To
Speaker 2: which of the angels did God say all this wonderful stuff? Well,
Speaker 2: the answer is he didn't say it to any of them.
Speaker 2: He said it about Jesus and he said it about us.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I mean, you just go through the New Testament with
Speaker 2: the Old Testament in your head, and it's just so
Speaker 2: dramatic in places. What is being said, if it if
Speaker 2: it just has a context. And again, our problem is,
Speaker 2: you know, we're living two thousand years after the fact
Speaker 2: or or you know, how many times do you hear
Speaker 2: the Old Testament preached? You know, we just don't get
Speaker 2: a lot of this in our heads to sort of
Speaker 2: filter the New Testament through the old. You know, we're
Speaker 2: filtering the New Testament through something else.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean that's amazing, man. So that's you know,
Speaker 1: being transformed into twinkling of an eye and becoming as
Speaker 1: the angels. That's when Christ comes back, We're gonna take
Speaker 1: their place, and we're gonna you know, we're gonna dethron them.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 1: That's you've heard it priests in church or you heard
Speaker 1: it mentioned in church, but they actually have the breakdown
Speaker 1: and go through and say, this isn't just a little
Speaker 1: piece of it. This is what the whole Old Testament
Speaker 1: is founding on these ancient gods who you know, were
Speaker 1: set up and have taken the praise and taken the
Speaker 1: worship unto themselves and got haughty. And how they're still
Speaker 1: there there, still want the worship, they still are receiving
Speaker 1: it from people, and they still want to deceive. But
Speaker 1: there's coming to time where we're gonna overthrow them those
Speaker 1: who were in Christ.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, I mean you again Hebrews too. You know
Speaker 2: that the whole line about we see Jesus, who has
Speaker 2: made a little lower than the angels, the Hebrew text
Speaker 2: has actually has a little lower than the yellow hem
Speaker 2: and psalm Aid is now crowned with glory because he
Speaker 2: suffered death, you know, the crucifixion, you know, so that
Speaker 2: by God's grace he would experience definitely behalf and everybody. Then,
Speaker 2: you know, you get a few verses later. It's all
Speaker 2: about bringing many sons to glory. You know, I will
Speaker 2: proclaim your name to my brothers in the midst of
Speaker 2: the assembly, midst of the council, in midst of the congregation,
Speaker 2: I will praise you. I mean, just all this stuff.
Speaker 2: Jesus says, here I am with the children God has
Speaker 2: given me. This is what it's about. I don't know
Speaker 2: how else you just say it. I mean, the Old
Speaker 2: Testament is an epic drama. There's a lot that's on
Speaker 2: the periphery about we sort of get sidebars like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of laws about how the people of
Speaker 2: God should live and there's this episode with the monarchy
Speaker 2: over here, but the core idea is this conflict between
Speaker 2: Yahweh and the other gods, and Yahweh's people and those
Speaker 2: who are owned, those who were disinherited and need to
Speaker 2: come back again to the true God. It's an epic
Speaker 2: drama that gets played out all the way up to
Speaker 2: and through the crucifixion.
Speaker 1: MM. And these are the gods the way that they're worshiped.
Speaker 1: They're usually not worshiped, you know what I'm saying directly,
Speaker 1: They're usually worshiped through something tangible on the earth, whether
Speaker 1: it's an idol or rock or you know, a you know,
Speaker 1: some type of wooding cross or something like that, some
Speaker 1: type of imagery that they portray through. You know, they
Speaker 1: usually don't go through and see people, you know, actually
Speaker 1: bowing down to bail, but they're actually bowing out to
Speaker 1: the images and the stars and the things that represent
Speaker 1: these gods.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a certain logic that goes with idolatry that
Speaker 2: is really telling in relation again to the contrast between
Speaker 2: other Elohim and the God of Israel. The logic of
Speaker 2: idolatry was, again ancient people are not idiots. They know
Speaker 2: that that Okay, I'm going to make this thing. I'm
Speaker 2: going to make this statue. They know that that is
Speaker 2: not a deity. It's not a divine being who created
Speaker 2: them or any of this kind of thing. They like
Speaker 2: if they if they knocked it over and it broke,
Speaker 2: they don't think their god died. They would just go
Speaker 2: make another one.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: So we actually have texts like this, and you know
Speaker 2: in the ancient world where a deity, a god, an
Speaker 2: idol is destroyed in battle, so they just go home
Speaker 2: and make another one. They're not idiots. What was an
Speaker 2: idol for an idol was you would fashion this thing
Speaker 2: and then you would go through a ritual to make
Speaker 2: it habitable or to animate it, to make it a thing,
Speaker 2: a place where the deity would come and inhabit it.
Speaker 2: And so why would you do that. You are trying
Speaker 2: to localize the deity. You are trying to bring it
Speaker 2: to you so that you can you can relate to
Speaker 2: it in some way, You can bargain with it, you
Speaker 2: can cajole it. Oh, look at all these nice offerings
Speaker 2: we're giving you. By the way, can you do this,
Speaker 2: that or the other thing for us? And you curse
Speaker 2: our enemies and all this kind of stuff. You localize
Speaker 2: the deity so that you can have some sort of
Speaker 2: relationship and in some sense hope to butter it up
Speaker 2: so that it works for you or that you get
Speaker 2: knowledge from it from the other side. This is part
Speaker 2: of the reason why in Biblical theology and Israelite thinking,
Speaker 2: you do not make a graven image of Yahweh. Not
Speaker 2: only was he completely other than anything you could make
Speaker 2: an image of, but Yahweh will not be localized. You
Speaker 2: will not bring him to yourself. He does not obey
Speaker 2: your beck and call. He cannot be tamed. It's a
Speaker 2: completely different logic, you know, than what's going on in
Speaker 2: the idolatry world. And it it again to me, it's
Speaker 2: just really telling uh again, it's a it's a it's
Speaker 2: a theological statement, you know. This resistance to images is
Speaker 2: a theological statement in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: It's a lot to deal with.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 1: It's like I said, I you know, I guess I'm
Speaker 1: at a loss of words because it's so amazing, and
Speaker 1: I hope everybody will start reading the scriptures like this.
Speaker 1: I would just say, just typing in the word gods
Speaker 1: and they search on a Bible search software and actually
Speaker 1: seeing how much you know it actually pops up, and
Speaker 1: it's a lot. It's not just these you know, these
Speaker 1: couple of scriptures that we dealt with that that you
Speaker 1: know that mention these guys. Now, these guys are mentioned
Speaker 1: throughout the all of the scriptures and they were battling
Speaker 1: back and forth and a lot of things that they
Speaker 1: were coming down, and I mean there was a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff going on. It makes it that much more interesting.
Speaker 1: So when a lot of people try to downplay the
Speaker 1: scriptures or try to downplay the Bible and say it's
Speaker 1: not interesting, is born this right here? It doesn't make
Speaker 1: someone question their face. I wouldn't think I would think
Speaker 1: it would make It would make someone, you know, be
Speaker 1: more interested in getting to the bottom of it, because
Speaker 1: there's way more there, and it makes it a lot
Speaker 1: more interesting, like there is something you know that that's
Speaker 1: you know, been hidden for a very long time. I guess.
Speaker 1: With that being said, I want to open up the
Speaker 1: phone lines because we have a few callers who who
Speaker 1: have questions. But before I do that, I just want
Speaker 1: to get your your take on the Book of Enoch.
Speaker 1: Where does that fit and all this? Do you reference
Speaker 1: it or is it? What's your take on that book?
Speaker 2: Sure, I don't consider the Book of Enoch canonical, but
Speaker 2: I have to confess that I don't even care about
Speaker 2: the questions. Yeah what I What I mean by that
Speaker 2: is the Book of Enoch is quoted a couple times,
Speaker 2: fairly directly in the New Testament. It's also alluded to
Speaker 2: a few dozen of others times, so that the New Testament
Speaker 2: writers knew Enoch and they felt very free to use
Speaker 2: material from Enoch to make their point, including theological points.
Speaker 2: Now what that tells me is that they assign value
Speaker 2: to it. I mean they they It's a book that
Speaker 2: if the New Testament writer assigned value to it, then
Speaker 2: I think it's worth being familiar with. It's worth reading. Again.
Speaker 2: It needs to be part of you, of your pool,
Speaker 2: your knowledge pool, to help you think like the writer thought,
Speaker 2: in other words, to help you frame what is being
Speaker 2: said in the New Testament. Because they were very willing
Speaker 2: again to use that and other things too. So you
Speaker 2: don't have to consider it canonical to do that. And
Speaker 2: so in one sense to me that the question, you know,
Speaker 2: should it be in the Canador? Shouldn't it? It really
Speaker 2: doesn't matter you should just read it. You should know,
Speaker 2: you should be familiar with it. In the in there
Speaker 2: there were in the Jewish community. The people who lived
Speaker 2: at Kumaran apparently did consider it canonical because they quote
Speaker 2: they quote it like they quote canonical books.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: There there's formulaic language like thus says the Lord, or
Speaker 2: as it is written or something like that. They'll and
Speaker 2: they'll they'll quote Enoch in that way, and a few
Speaker 2: other books too. In the early Church, Enoch had a
Speaker 2: couple supporters. Tertullian supported it for a while as being
Speaker 2: a sacred inspired book, and Origin did. And it's kind
Speaker 2: of interesting if I have a book called The Christianity's
Speaker 2: Apocalyptic Heritage. It's a scholarly book by Jim Vandercam, and
Speaker 2: there's an interesting anecdote in there. He's talking about Origin's
Speaker 2: view of Enoch, and there's actually a passage where Origin
Speaker 2: is writing about this where he I'm going to paraphrase him,
Speaker 2: he said, as well, you know, I'm kind of old
Speaker 2: now and I'm the only one still out here defending
Speaker 2: this thing. Yeah, so I guess I have to. I
Speaker 2: have to defer to the spirit. I have to assume
Speaker 2: that the spirit has led, you know, the church to
Speaker 2: not recognize it, and so I'm going to bail on it.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not gonna worry about it. I still
Speaker 2: like it, but I'm not going to fight about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not going to be your main battle. I
Speaker 1: hear you, right.
Speaker 2: I think Origin's attitude there is commendable.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I again I say I don't really care about the
Speaker 2: question because I think we should be familiar with it
Speaker 2: and read it, if for no other reason to help
Speaker 2: us think like they were thinking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a great book.
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 1: We're going to open up the phone lines. Everybody who's
Speaker 1: on the line, We're going to go down the list.
Speaker 1: There's quite a few there, so if we can make
Speaker 1: it quick, we'll get through these and you guys can
Speaker 1: ask Michael or your questions. We got a God's Warrior princess.
Speaker 1: Who are we speaking with? How are you doing great?
Speaker 5: I don't have any questions. My name is Rachel. I'm
Speaker 5: just listening in enjoying the show.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, you don't have any You don't have
Speaker 1: any questions?
Speaker 5: WNE, what's your take on on the higher cells? Or or.
Speaker 6: We all have guardians specifically for each.
Speaker 7: One of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually do think the uh, the idea of
Speaker 2: guardian angels, that sort of thing, uh is biblical. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's the obvious reference in at the end of Hebrews
Speaker 2: chapter one about angels being ministering spirits again to to
Speaker 2: serve those who inherit salvation, you know, believers, and again
Speaker 2: the passage in Matthew. So I, yeah, I tend to
Speaker 2: think that that is a a biblical concept that we
Speaker 2: we have, you know, guardians. There there are there are
Speaker 2: beings assigned to to uh, look out, you know, for
Speaker 2: us in life and perhaps influence us, and you know
Speaker 2: in this direction of that direction. So yeah, I'm not
Speaker 2: a I'm not a skeptic when it comes to that.
Speaker 1: Awesome Next we have Lobido you there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 1: I'm just I don't really have a question right now.
Speaker 4: I'm just doing the show as well.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, if you if something comes up, just
Speaker 1: leave me a comment in the chat room and I'll
Speaker 1: bring you right in. Okay, okay, all right, brother Archaic,
Speaker 1: he'd break what's going on? How's it going?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 5: Good, good, doing good.
Speaker 1: I know you have a question, Yeah I do, Doctor
Speaker 1: Heizer that's like you, are you an.
Speaker 2: Opious No, I don't. I don't like. I don't think
Speaker 2: henotheism is an adequate term, just like I don't think
Speaker 2: monotheism is an addequate term or monolatry. I think, for example, henotheism,
Speaker 2: the way it's it's been used in scholarship implies, and
Speaker 2: in many cases does more than imply that the deity
Speaker 2: who's considered superior can be changed, can be defeated and
Speaker 2: displaced and replaced. I don't think an Israelite would think
Speaker 2: that at all. So I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't like any of the terms because they're modern terms.
Speaker 2: I think I think we're better off describing what a
Speaker 2: un orthodox Israelite biblical writer would believe, rather than trying
Speaker 2: to stick a word on it. Right now, how would
Speaker 2: you describe their view, because.
Speaker 1: I mean, again, like with a hanapism, And I know
Speaker 1: you don't like that obviously, but they believed in other
Speaker 1: divine beings, which, by what I've read from your from
Speaker 1: your website and stuff like.
Speaker 4: That, you really kind of support that that view.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm righted with you. I don't think, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think the recognition that there
Speaker 2: are multiple Loheims supports heno theism or polytheism, because those terms,
Speaker 2: again are modern and there they were coined by people
Speaker 2: who assign attribute significance to the term elohem. I do not,
Speaker 2: so I don't. I don't think they apply at all.
Speaker 2: What I would Here's how I would describe it. Uh,
Speaker 2: an Israelite, a biblical writer anyway, and you know, an
Speaker 2: orthodox Yahweh worshiper would say that that there are many
Speaker 2: eloheim because that's what the Hebrew Bible says. There are
Speaker 2: many eloheim but among those Elohim Yahweh is unique. Yahweh
Speaker 2: is an Eloheim, but no other Eloheim is Yahweh. And
Speaker 2: you say, well, what what differentiates Yahweh? What what makes
Speaker 2: him species? Is unique?
Speaker 1: So to speak?
Speaker 2: And in the in the Hebrew Bible, there are things
Speaker 2: like uh, he is the only one that's described as
Speaker 2: the creator of all things visible and invisible. He's the
Speaker 2: only one who is described as sovereign. And you just
Speaker 2: have you have think he's only one described his pre
Speaker 2: existence before me. There was no other, you know, that
Speaker 2: kind of thing, So that there are there are four
Speaker 2: or five ways that in Israelite a biblical writer would
Speaker 2: talk about Yahweh, that particular Elohim that make his that
Speaker 2: that telegraph the idea that I think that this Elohim
Speaker 2: is is unique among all other Elohim. So that's that's
Speaker 2: how I would describe that. Okay, well, yeah, thanks for
Speaker 2: answer my question.
Speaker 1: Sure, are you good?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's pretty much all I can think
Speaker 2: of right now.
Speaker 1: It'sout my head. I I well, I've put your on
Speaker 1: mute and saying to you, man, you got anything else,
Speaker 1: you know, just just shut me up and bring it
Speaker 1: back in. All right, thank you?
Speaker 4: All right, brother.
Speaker 1: We have a caller from Georgia on the line. You're there, yeah,
Speaker 1: he Hey Darren, Hey, what's up? Man?
Speaker 4: Hey, not not much man. Uh. A couple of questions
Speaker 4: there there. This is for you after after the show.
Speaker 4: Could you call me? Uh? Yeah, could you could you
Speaker 4: call me after the show? I want to ask you? Okay, Hi, Hi, sir, Hi, sir.
Speaker 4: I I'm I'm I'm listening to I'm listening into. But
Speaker 4: I did I did have a question about uh, the
Speaker 4: Second Coming of Christ. I've been I've been doing, I've
Speaker 4: been doing a lot of uh research, and you know,
Speaker 4: I looked into US poology and things, and I even
Speaker 4: I even took some notes, and I was, I was,
Speaker 4: I was watching this thing. How how somebody used biblical
Speaker 4: texts and and and and logic. He wasn't, he wasn't
Speaker 4: an atheist, but he was. He was one of those.
Speaker 4: I guess you could call. I guess you could say, uh,
Speaker 4: African Christians. I guess I guess Pan Pan African. I
Speaker 4: don't know.
Speaker 2: Af Afrocentric.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. He he I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't remember all the I don't remember all the
Speaker 4: notes I wrote down, but I do remember Matthew twenty
Speaker 4: four when uh when he when he was saying that,
Speaker 4: when he when he was saying that Jesus said that
Speaker 4: many many, uh well, will will go around saying that
Speaker 4: I am Christ and and just and deceive many right
Speaker 4: so so so what so what was elaborated to me
Speaker 4: was that you know, people, people will go around saying
Speaker 4: that Jesus is but Christ. When when it when it
Speaker 4: was saying that he didn't, he didn't say that he was.
Speaker 7: He was.
Speaker 4: He was saying that he was the son of man.
Speaker 2: Right, well, son of son of Man is an old
Speaker 2: is an Old Testament term. Uh. In most places in
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, and also in most places in the
Speaker 2: New Testament, the term means human, okay. Like, for instance,
Speaker 2: Ezekiel is called the son of Man a lot in
Speaker 2: the Book of Ezekiel, and we know Ezekiel was just
Speaker 2: a human being. However, in Daniel chapter seven, there is
Speaker 2: a really important reference to the Son of Man in
Speaker 2: that chapter, and that's the scene where we have, you know,
Speaker 2: Daniel describes a vision he sees he's you know, in heaven,
Speaker 2: and he sees the Ancient of Days sitting on his
Speaker 2: throne and he's sitting there with the council. It's a
Speaker 2: divine council scene. And we know that it's a divine
Speaker 2: council scene, not only because the word, you know, council
Speaker 2: is used congregation, court, that kind of thing, but also
Speaker 2: because there are plural thrones, okay. So it's it's like
Speaker 2: a boardroom meeting, divine boardroom meeting. And the Ancient of Days,
Speaker 2: which is God, is described with the white hair. The
Speaker 2: whole bit is there, and he sees Daniel sees one
Speaker 2: like a son of Man coming upon the clouds to
Speaker 2: the Ancient of Days. Now the interesting thing here is
Speaker 2: that that description the one who comes upon the clouds
Speaker 2: or the cloud rioter who rides on the clouds, that
Speaker 2: kind of thing is actually a rare phrase in the
Speaker 2: Old Testament. It's only just four or five times. It
Speaker 2: was a title, a known title in the wider ancient
Speaker 2: Near Eastern world, specifically of Bail, and Bail was a deity.
Speaker 2: So what's going on here is that the biblical writer
Speaker 2: uses a familiar title of deity. So he's not an angel,
Speaker 2: he's not sort of one of these intermediate beings, nothing
Speaker 2: like that. This is a deity title. The biblical writer
Speaker 2: uses it four times. Of Yahweh in the Old Testament
Speaker 2: refers to Yahweh as the one who rides the clouds,
Speaker 2: the master of the heavens. In Biblical theology, Bail it's Yahweh,
Speaker 2: So that makes sense. The only time it's not is
Speaker 2: that passage in Daniel seven. So you have a deity
Speaker 2: title used of a second person besides the God of Israel,
Speaker 2: because they're both in the same scene. Now, this passage
Speaker 2: is the passage Jesus quotes when he is on trial
Speaker 2: in front of Caiaphas, the high priest, when Caiaphas says,
Speaker 2: you know, quit fooling around with us. Tell us who
Speaker 2: you are, and Jesus says, hereafter you will see the
Speaker 2: son of Man coming upon the clouds with great glory,
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. He quotes Daniel seven. Basically,
Speaker 2: he's saying, look, I'm the son of man that's in
Speaker 2: that chapter. And we know that that is what Jesus
Speaker 2: was saying because of what Caiaphas does right after he
Speaker 2: says it. He tears his clothes, which was a sign
Speaker 2: of you know, somebody's committed blasphemy, and he says, this
Speaker 2: is blasphemy. We have no more need of witnesses, you know,
Speaker 2: get rid of this guy and go kill him. He
Speaker 2: knew that Jesus, through the title one who rides on
Speaker 2: the clouds, who is the son of man, he was
Speaker 2: claiming to be deity. Now let's take that back to
Speaker 2: your question. The fact that Jesus references himself as the
Speaker 2: son of man does not rule out that he is divine,
Speaker 2: a divine being, does not rule out that he's God incarnate.
Speaker 2: So if whoever you were listening to there is using
Speaker 2: that as an evidence that Jesus was not the son
Speaker 2: of God is just not right. He's just not correct.
Speaker 2: So that I think we needed. It's another good example
Speaker 2: of where you need an Old Testament context to figure
Speaker 2: out what in the world these guys are saying.
Speaker 4: Right, right, right, because because like you know, a lot
Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of a lot of people,
Speaker 4: a lot of people, a lot of people keep, uh,
Speaker 4: they keep talking about like the rapture and and and
Speaker 4: and everything, and it's and it's, it's it's it's kind
Speaker 4: of it's kind of this the seeeding, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean. I'm not I'm not. I'm not. I'm not
Speaker 4: saying I don't believe it. I just I just believe
Speaker 4: it in a different way, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Because something some you basically here's what I think you're saying.
Speaker 2: I think you're saying you believe in a second coming,
Speaker 2: but not a rapture. What.
Speaker 4: Well, well, well, I'm not I'm not. I'm not saying
Speaker 4: I don't I don't believe in the rapture. I'm saying
Speaker 4: I don't believe it the way Hollywood would portray in
Speaker 4: Christian movies like like this, like this big thunderstorm and
Speaker 4: and people and and and God is striking us down,
Speaker 4: trying to take us up and things. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 4: I look at the rapture a little bit differently because
Speaker 4: the the Bible says that, you know, people, people have
Speaker 4: to die in order to uh a sin.
Speaker 2: Oh as far as as far as being glorified and
Speaker 2: joining joining the Lord.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I follow what you're saying.
Speaker 2: I can't understand what I understand how you're looking at it.
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, okay, thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, hey Devin, thanks for the call, man, and uh
Speaker 1: so the show's over. I'll definitely give you a call.
Speaker 1: All right, we got another call. But I want to
Speaker 1: ask you this, Michael, the whole you know uthology thing.
Speaker 1: How did you get involved with uthology? Because we see
Speaker 1: your name, you know, in there a lot and you're
Speaker 1: actually teaching on biblical principles biblical text. How does the
Speaker 1: uthology part get in here? Like, you know, how was
Speaker 1: you introduced to that that field? Was that just a
Speaker 1: field that was taking some of the terms and things
Speaker 1: and you just happened to be there or what?
Speaker 2: Well? There There are a number of ways I could
Speaker 2: I could answer that question. I think probably the quickest
Speaker 2: way to get there is It's something I've always been
Speaker 2: interested in casually, and then you know, as I as
Speaker 2: I you know, went down the path voccasionally of being
Speaker 2: a biblical scholar and theologian and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: The UFO thing, to me is important because people who
Speaker 2: are into that are are very predisposed to thinking about
Speaker 2: big picture questions. And what I mean by that is
Speaker 2: you go to a UFO conference and people are very
Speaker 2: willing to talk about is there a God? You know,
Speaker 2: if there's a God, how do we understand him, how
Speaker 2: do we relate to him? What? Who are we? Who
Speaker 2: made us? Who put us here? Why are we here?
Speaker 2: What's our purpose? What's this stuff about the image? What
Speaker 2: does that mean? I mean, they're actually really really ready
Speaker 2: to discuss things that are important theologically, you know, and
Speaker 2: I've you know, this is sort of half serious and
Speaker 2: half not serious, but I think I think you'd get
Speaker 2: into better discussions in a lot of ways with people
Speaker 2: at a UFO conference than you do after church. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just you know, because people are just they're they're
Speaker 2: there and they're thinking about this stuff, and so that
Speaker 2: makes it important to me. And then you know, once
Speaker 2: you know, I started sort of commenting on this, and
Speaker 2: a lot of this has to do with with my
Speaker 2: novel as well, the facade that sort of you know,
Speaker 2: put me on the map in those circles. And once
Speaker 2: that happened, then you know, I felt the need, you know,
Speaker 2: to address some of this stuff about well, how look
Speaker 2: at what people who are into UFO stuff, they're they're
Speaker 2: they're just really using that to redefine theism, to redefine Christianity,
Speaker 2: to redefine the faith, or to attack it. So, you know,
Speaker 2: I felt some obligation, you know, to get involved in
Speaker 2: the discussion with respect to that, both in terms of
Speaker 2: if you had X, y Z experience, how do you
Speaker 2: really parse this? I mean, yeah, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to give you some ways, some things you might want
Speaker 2: to think about before you conclude that Jesus is an alien.
Speaker 2: You might want to think about these five or six
Speaker 2: other things over here. And so I sort of view
Speaker 2: that as my role in it, and that's you know
Speaker 2: why I think it's important.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people as well, this gets you know,
Speaker 1: thrown out there as well, and I know you've dealt
Speaker 1: with it. The whole Lucifer thing is Lucifer a title
Speaker 1: somewhat like Eloheim can be a title. Is Lucifer not
Speaker 1: the devil? Is not Satan? Who does Isaiah chapter fourteen
Speaker 1: speak about according to your research, Well.
Speaker 7: If you go to Isaiah fourteen, you you know, Lucifer
Speaker 7: actually is the is an English word created from a
Speaker 7: Latin word.
Speaker 4: That's used to.
Speaker 7: Translate uh, a phrase in Isaiah fourteen twelve, which in
Speaker 7: Hebrew is a helll than Chakar, the shining one, the
Speaker 7: son of the dawn, So shining one there, you know,
Speaker 7: in Latin is you know, it gets translated with Lucifer,
Speaker 7: and that's where we get that that term that means
Speaker 7: in that chapter he's not actually referred to as you know, Satan,
Speaker 7: and the devil, of course is not a hambri term.
Speaker 7: So that's sort of off the table. But you know,
Speaker 7: I'm of the view, and this is a minority view,
Speaker 7: that Isaiah fourteen and Ezekiel twenty eight and Genesis three
Speaker 7: are sort of all drawing on the same story, you know,
Speaker 7: this sort of a story of cosmic rebellion. And so
Speaker 7: even though you don't have the terms specific term you
Speaker 7: know for Satan occur in these passages, I think you
Speaker 7: do have a reference to again a cosmic rebellion idea,
Speaker 7: and so conceptually, I think there is good reason, you know,
Speaker 7: to look at these passages together and not separately. I
Speaker 7: will say that that Satan in Hebrew, in the Old
Speaker 7: Testament is not a proper name. It becomes a proper
Speaker 7: name in in the period between the testaments, the Old
Speaker 7: New Testament, and then of course.
Speaker 1: In the New Testament.
Speaker 7: So that's a means.
Speaker 1: That's almost like a title as well, right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, Thus Satan's not a person technically, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: we see, yeah, we see Peter as acting as Satan
Speaker 7: as well, acting as an adversary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as one who hadn't you know, mind the things
Speaker 1: of man and not the things of God.
Speaker 7: Well, the Angel of the Lord acts as God's Satan,
Speaker 7: God's Satan in the Book of Numbers twenty two that
Speaker 7: the Philum story. M hm, he's the angel that that opposes.
Speaker 7: That's it's the ton what's the toon mean to oppose
Speaker 7: or be in an adversarial stance towards he opposes, you know,
Speaker 7: the donkey impedes progress, wants to stop bailing. So that
Speaker 7: the term itself is just it's actually pretty generic, you know,
Speaker 7: just a some opposition point or person. But when it
Speaker 7: you know, when it when it gets set in opposition
Speaker 7: to God, you know, you have this sort of sense
Speaker 7: of cosmic rebellion.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Well, we got another caller. I don't want
Speaker 1: to forget about them. Coller in Texas? Are you there? Yes,
Speaker 1: as you tell.
Speaker 5: I see myself twice in here, I don't now I
Speaker 5: was Texas.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, how's it going?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm good, I'm good. My name's Anna here.
Speaker 7: Hello.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, whichy'all were talking about earlier? Are two
Speaker 5: questions that I had already written down, you know, the
Speaker 5: one about Genesis one, six and twenty seven God referring
Speaker 5: you know, to us and who use was referring to?
Speaker 5: That's one of the questions that I had. So y'all,
Speaker 5: I talk about what was the first one work in
Speaker 5: Genesis one, twenty six and twenty seven versus twenty th
Speaker 5: and twenty Yeah, you already went ye'ah went over that,
Speaker 5: So I I just wanted to get I guess I'll
Speaker 5: look more on the website as to the documents that
Speaker 5: you have, and I look those over to get more information.
Speaker 5: I guess about it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess I was gonna say, if you go
Speaker 7: to the website again d R M s H dot com.
Speaker 7: There I have three blogs. Okay, the third blog, the
Speaker 7: one I haven't mentioned yet tonight, is UFO Religions. So
Speaker 7: if you click on that at the top of my
Speaker 7: homepage dr MSH dot com and then click on UFO
Speaker 7: Religions two or three I think it's two or three,
Speaker 7: maybe four posts ago, I actually put a a handout,
Speaker 7: like a PDF file of a pretty lengthy article that
Speaker 7: I wrote on the image of God. And in that
Speaker 7: there's a little bit of a discussion of the plurality.
Speaker 7: So if if you got that document, that might help
Speaker 7: you as well.
Speaker 5: Okay, yes, I have both pulled ups all I'll get
Speaker 5: those and look more into it.
Speaker 4: Good.
Speaker 5: And another question was about also in some two I
Speaker 5: had a pastor before that basically I think taught about
Speaker 5: that verse, but he was saying more about we ourselves
Speaker 5: are our God.
Speaker 7: Well, my wife could testify that I am not a deity.
Speaker 7: I'll start off by saying that I will disown my
Speaker 7: own divinity there in that sense, because she would certainly
Speaker 7: help me with that.
Speaker 5: But that's a.
Speaker 7: Common view that the elohem there are human beings The problem,
Speaker 7: of course, that you have is if you go over
Speaker 7: to if you read Psalm eighty two, you know the
Speaker 7: talk about, you know, with the Counsel of All, the
Speaker 7: Council of the Mighty, and so on and so forth,
Speaker 7: the Sons of God the Most High, and all this
Speaker 7: kind of stuff. If you take that and you go
Speaker 7: over to Psalm eighty nine, you'll notice right away in
Speaker 7: the first five six seven verses that the descriptions are
Speaker 7: the same with one significant difference. Psalmenty nine very clearly
Speaker 7: has the council in the heaven in the clouds, so
Speaker 7: that the council idea clearly refers to a spiritual, heavenly
Speaker 7: council that does not concern humans. The other problem with
Speaker 7: that is, I would ask you know whoever said that
Speaker 7: to you, at what point in Old Testament history, in
Speaker 7: Old Testament theology do the Israelites, do the Jewish elders
Speaker 7: any human beings? At what point do they have control
Speaker 7: of all the nations so that God would rebuke them
Speaker 7: the way he rebukes the Sons of the Most High
Speaker 7: in Psalm eighty two, but being corrupt in their administration
Speaker 7: over the nations, the Jews, the Israelites never had jurisdiction
Speaker 7: over all the nations of the world. It's a view
Speaker 7: that's common, but frankly, it just doesn't work, you know
Speaker 7: when you start thinking about it closely and looking at
Speaker 7: other passages.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this too. I'm under the
Speaker 1: assumption that the US spoken of in Genesis one, the
Speaker 1: US spoken of at the scripture of the Tower of Babel,
Speaker 1: and the I'm actually under the assumption that that's not Father,
Speaker 1: Son and Holy Spirit, obviously. And then we get to
Speaker 1: Genesis chapter eighteen, where the Lord appeared a capital L
Speaker 1: O R D appeared with three men beside him. As
Speaker 1: far as context is concerned, this Us that was coming down,
Speaker 1: this us, let us come down, Let us do this,
Speaker 1: let us do this. And then we see in Genesis
Speaker 1: chapter eighteen that these us came down. Am I right
Speaker 1: to assume that?
Speaker 7: Well? In in in Genesis eighteen and you don't you
Speaker 7: don't really have any any sort of specific description as
Speaker 7: to you know, where they came from or you know,
Speaker 7: coming down or anything like that. Is that's a good
Speaker 7: assumption because we find out, you know, in the story,
Speaker 7: that one of them is is Jahweh and the other
Speaker 7: two are of course not human. So yeah, I mean again,
Speaker 7: my view of this is gonna sound really kind of dumb.
Speaker 7: That my view of this is simple. That is, you
Speaker 7: have you have, you have God, and you have a
Speaker 7: heavenly host, you know, a whole bunch of divine beings,
Speaker 7: and occasionally some of them come along, you know, you
Speaker 7: don't you know, I'm not locked into this triune language.
Speaker 7: And I think you're. I think your thought is really
Speaker 7: good there, you're The use of that passage, you know,
Speaker 7: would certainly suggest that you know, this is sort of normative,
Speaker 7: you know, for for biblical language in the biblical worldview.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: So that capital L O r D there that U
Speaker 1: if I put it up, that translates to Yahovah. That's
Speaker 1: the same as yahweh or.
Speaker 7: Well in English. In English Bibles. The way you can
Speaker 7: tell this is the publishing convention printing typeface convention is
Speaker 7: if L O R D is in all caps, you know,
Speaker 7: like small caps, all caps, that represents the divine name,
Speaker 7: you know, y h w h. The only time that
Speaker 7: you'll see a departure from this is when you have
Speaker 7: the phrase Lord God and then God is in all caps.
Speaker 7: But what that is is is it's the combined divine name.
Speaker 7: It's it's Yahweh Elohim. So that doesn't occur that often.
Speaker 7: So most of the time, whenever you see the all
Speaker 7: caps with the Lord, that is Yahweh. If you don't
Speaker 7: see all caps, like let's just say it's a capital
Speaker 7: L and then the O R D is in the
Speaker 7: lower case, then it's the word the Hebrew word out
Speaker 7: of eye, which is a different term which may or
Speaker 7: may not be used of God. You just have to
Speaker 7: tell by the context.
Speaker 1: Okay, I guess another question. I guess to go along
Speaker 1: with that. Well, hold on, someone, someone has a question
Speaker 1: in the chat. They want me to ask you. This
Speaker 1: is kind of left field, doctor Heizer, what are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on spiritual evolution awakening? How do you read God
Speaker 1: with your beliefs? Obviously the religious system is bad.
Speaker 7: Well, I don't know that. I have to know what
Speaker 7: you mean by the religious system to know whether i'd
Speaker 7: call it bad or not. I would certainly call it flawed,
Speaker 7: from anywhere from incomplete to flawed.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Uh, you know, there'll be a wide range of terms
Speaker 7: I think I would use there. But I think that
Speaker 7: that Hebrews eleven here is a people you know where
Speaker 7: you know, we read that's about faith. It is impossible
Speaker 7: to police him. And he comes to God and must
Speaker 7: believe that he is and he's a rewarder of those
Speaker 7: who diligently seek him. So the idea of development, the
Speaker 7: sort of being drawn you know along, in terms of
Speaker 7: you know, a spiritual journey, that kind of thing. I think,
Speaker 7: you know, the Scripture does teach at least if you're moving,
Speaker 7: you know, in the right direction. You know, God does
Speaker 7: draw people behind a process. He's behind the relationships we
Speaker 7: have to move us down the road, all that sort
Speaker 7: of thing. That's a long way I'm saying. Yeah, I
Speaker 7: think God is active rather than passive in these sorts
Speaker 7: of things.
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 1: Okay. Another question that I personally have. We see this
Speaker 1: this entity, this being, this angel, this God appearing throughout
Speaker 1: the scripture on several occasions, and it's a title being used.
Speaker 1: Who pops up to do a certain thing, the title
Speaker 1: the Angel of the Lord. Is this a separate entity,
Speaker 1: this Angel of the Lord, that's that's called this every time?
Speaker 7: Yeah, this is a this is a really complex question.
Speaker 7: There are times when the Angel of the Lord, the
Speaker 7: malacatto and I the Malak. Yahweh is distinguished from Yahweh,
Speaker 7: and there are other times when he is identified with Yahweh,
Speaker 7: sort of fused with Yahweh, so you actually see both.
Speaker 7: This is actually part of my dissertation full issue. I
Speaker 7: think that our concept is the Christian concept of the godhead.
Speaker 7: Uh you know we we we use the word trinitarian,
Speaker 7: even taking a step back from that, even a Vianetarian.
Speaker 7: You two persons. I think that whole concept is part
Speaker 7: of the Old Testament theology. I think that the best
Speaker 7: way to illustrate usion of the two is in Genesis
Speaker 7: forty eight, where Jacob is blessing his children and he's
Speaker 7: about ready to die, and he's blessing the sons of
Speaker 7: Jenesip and he says, I think his blessing, may the
Speaker 7: God who you know preserved my life in all my
Speaker 7: life long, you know, made the God who did this,
Speaker 7: that and the other thing for me. He is elohem twice.
Speaker 7: And then the third line is may the Angel who
Speaker 7: has again preserved the blessed these boys. And the verb
Speaker 7: blessed is singular, it's not plural. So basically you have
Speaker 7: two different entities. God and this Angel had a stealer verb,
Speaker 7: which has let me bless these boys, and they're just
Speaker 7: virtually indistinguishable that passage, because the writer could have used
Speaker 7: a plural to distinguish them, but he doesn't, so you
Speaker 7: have sort of diffusion going on. So I actually think
Speaker 7: the Angel of the Lord is the invisible Yahweh in
Speaker 7: the Old Testament that he is. I have this crazy
Speaker 7: view of there being two yahwehs in the Old Testament.
Speaker 7: One is visible and the other is visible. And I
Speaker 7: think that forerunner of God had thinking in the New Testament.
Speaker 7: It's the backdrop to how a Jew could embrace the
Speaker 7: worship of the God of Israel to also worship Jesus
Speaker 7: not think he was doing anything wrong, because Jesus is
Speaker 7: the visible manifestation of God the Father. And I think
Speaker 7: we have that Old Testament system. We have that system
Speaker 7: described in the Old Testament, an invisible and invisible Yahweh,
Speaker 7: and the two are the same, but yet they're different
Speaker 7: kind of the way we talk about Jesus. You know,
Speaker 7: Jesus is God, but he's not the Father, but he's
Speaker 7: still God in the sense that God is in all
Speaker 7: this language we use. You can say the same thing
Speaker 7: in the Old Testament in different passages mm hmm, because
Speaker 7: we see them forty eight. Because it's it's just so
Speaker 7: if there's ever an opportunity for the biblical writer to say, hey,
Speaker 7: I don't want anybody to be confused. I want you,
Speaker 7: I want you to completely separate these two. That's the
Speaker 7: passage where he could have done it, but he gets
Speaker 7: the opposite.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, because we see that time used a lot,
Speaker 1: and you know, we hear a lot as far as
Speaker 1: dealing with the different types of angels and the different
Speaker 1: type of gods and things like that. In your studies,
Speaker 1: who have you seen the watchers to be? What?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 1: You know, what are their roles?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 7: Watcher is uh is primarily a second term that changed
Speaker 7: you know, the Book of Enoch and some other books
Speaker 7: for you know, any place of the God again, just
Speaker 7: divine beings. I mean it's used in Daniel too. Now
Speaker 7: parallel to the word holy one. Why take watcher to
Speaker 7: be sort of a descriptive term. It refers to a
Speaker 7: divine being, but it's a word that would have gives
Speaker 7: you a little glimpse into you know, what what they
Speaker 7: do or what what an attribute is? It literally means
Speaker 7: the one who watches. In other words, sleep you know
Speaker 7: that it's it's cover, watch will always you know what's
Speaker 7: what's going on, and that sort of thing. So, but
Speaker 7: the way it's used in Jish literature predominantly outside of
Speaker 7: Daniel uh turning to the Genesis six episode.
Speaker 1: Okay, the Genesis six and also mentioned in Enoch, which
Speaker 1: is as most likely a detailed look at Genesis six
Speaker 1: and some other things, and actually talking about the watchers
Speaker 1: being a type of angel who watches and records everything
Speaker 1: and reports it back to the most high is that
Speaker 1: a accurate station.
Speaker 7: In academic terminology, Enoch is put in the genre known
Speaker 7: as the rewritten Bible. What that means is basically, it's
Speaker 7: an amplified version. You know, there's a biblical story and
Speaker 7: lots of details get added to it. If anybody's read Enoch,
Speaker 7: you know that's exactly what it is. Oh, yeah, that
Speaker 7: that is the way those de hominology is used. There
Speaker 7: not not only an Edoch, I mean there are other
Speaker 7: there are other texts. You believe thinks bad when you
Speaker 7: have uh, the term watch reviews. But biblically it's biblically used.
Speaker 7: It's clearly refer to a divine being, you know, someone
Speaker 7: from from the habits.
Speaker 1: Uh huh, all right, we have another call. I'll go
Speaker 1: ahead and take this call. This is an ancient lady.
Speaker 1: How you doing?
Speaker 5: Hey?
Speaker 6: Pretty good?
Speaker 1: Have you got a question?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 6: This is Connie from uh into the Light?
Speaker 1: Hey, how are you pretty good?
Speaker 5: Hey?
Speaker 6: Doctor Isser? I just had a couple of questions for you.
Speaker 6: One I had said that he had asked a couple
Speaker 6: of things. That my computer crash right then, so I
Speaker 6: didn't hear anything.
Speaker 2: For one.
Speaker 6: I one just wanted to know, like just your personal
Speaker 6: outlook based on all of your study that you've done
Speaker 6: on all the ancient Hebrew belief systems. Are you that
Speaker 6: kind of change how you look at what we term
Speaker 6: like modern Christianity, you know, being everybody being trinitarian and
Speaker 6: you know, and you said that you kind of ruffle
Speaker 6: a few feathers there sometimes and some of the things
Speaker 6: that you speak out about, But like, are you does
Speaker 6: that kind of change your worldview? Like are you a Geocentrist?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 6: Are you anapius? Are you trinitarian?
Speaker 7: I would? I would, I would still hold to trinitarian theology.
Speaker 7: I get there and through quite a different path. You know,
Speaker 7: it's typical, which which bugs people. But I again, I
Speaker 7: can't really divorce this from the Old Testament. The Old Testament,
Speaker 7: it's very easy to demonstrates a two person godheaded and
Speaker 7: once you do that, then you begin to notice that
Speaker 7: some of the trinology used for the second person, and
Speaker 7: it is also used in a few passages of the Spirit.
Speaker 7: And in at least one instance, they are sixty three
Speaker 7: and you have to take that in parallel to parallel
Speaker 7: and Psalm seventy eight and one is all three of
Speaker 7: them actually in the same scene as it were. So
Speaker 7: what I think happens is the New Testament writers use
Speaker 7: that language, use that idea when they talk about Jesus,
Speaker 7: because there are four or five places that Jesus is
Speaker 7: called the Spirit the Lord who is the Spirit that
Speaker 7: sort of language. So just as just as the Angel
Speaker 7: of the Lord is but isn't yahweh, And just as
Speaker 7: Jesus is but is in God, the Spirit is but
Speaker 7: is in Jesus, I mean at this this sort of
Speaker 7: tune that's going on, and then then you bring a
Speaker 7: third one in there and you come out trinitarian. So
Speaker 7: I think it's consistent across the Testaments that the New
Speaker 7: Testament writers are thinking of a very old Testament terms
Speaker 7: and this idea that you can have a deity who
Speaker 7: is more than one person, can be simultaneously present at
Speaker 7: different locations, that is not unique to the Hebrew Bible.
Speaker 7: I mean that you're gonna find that in other religious
Speaker 7: texts that that's not some aberration or something that the
Speaker 7: Israelites are making up. It's unique about them is if
Speaker 7: they're going to isolate the language to Yahweh, he is
Speaker 7: the only one who could be spoken of this way.
Speaker 7: And so again I don't have any any tention in
Speaker 7: that respect with being Tranitarian. But if I walk into
Speaker 7: the church and talking about this sort of stuff, how
Speaker 7: I get there? Yeah, it's gonna freak people out, but hey,
Speaker 7: you know that's that's what.
Speaker 6: It is, right, And what about the other ones like
Speaker 6: centric because I actually just since I'm not in the
Speaker 6: church anymore, I go to a home church. My pastor
Speaker 6: actually got kicked out for his beliefs, for his nine
Speaker 6: to eleven beliefs, okay, and so he decided to well,
Speaker 6: the Lord actually decided that he was going to start
Speaker 6: a home church. So he's all about truth and wanting
Speaker 6: to get you know, stuff out there about the Bible
Speaker 6: and obviously about what's really going on in the world
Speaker 6: and everything. So that being said, I have really researched
Speaker 6: a lot myself. So I was like, okay, let me
Speaker 6: go ahead and bring you up and bring up all
Speaker 6: these other things. And one of it was the cosmology
Speaker 6: to the Hebrew cosmology, and so I ended up, you know,
Speaker 6: giving your I can't remember which one it was, but
Speaker 6: it was some lecture that you did. Was found it
Speaker 6: on YouTube, and I ended up sending it out to
Speaker 6: the other church members and I'm just trying to get
Speaker 6: their take on what the thoughts and so it was
Speaker 6: kind of interesting to hear what they had to say
Speaker 6: about that.
Speaker 7: But her personal view of yeah, I don't. I don't
Speaker 7: hold to a geocentric universe. I don't think that that
Speaker 7: it's the intent of Genesis to teach us, uh the
Speaker 7: science in terms of, well, we're gonna learn physics from Genesis,
Speaker 7: We're gonna learn astrophysics from genisis I don't. I don't
Speaker 7: think that at all. I think it's it's their way.
Speaker 7: It's a very typical ancient Near Eastern cosmology. Uh, that's
Speaker 7: sort of it's a theological statement. You know, it's it's
Speaker 7: the language that's used. You can find in ancient in text,
Speaker 7: you can find a little bit in an Egyptian text,
Speaker 7: you can find a little bit in Canaanite text. And
Speaker 7: the reason for that is the the Biblical writer is
Speaker 7: all these ideas into Genesis and then turning them around
Speaker 7: to sort of slap the other gods around because he's
Speaker 7: he's going to be inserting Yahweh into the texts in
Speaker 7: conjunction with all those ideas to make a theological statement.
Speaker 7: You know, it's it's it's Yahweh who created this this world?
Speaker 7: We know it. So I think it's about theological messaging.
Speaker 7: I don't think it's about articulating any sort of scientific theory.
Speaker 7: But you know, I'm a creationist in that sense. I
Speaker 7: certainly believe in a creator. We have to affirm that,
Speaker 7: so I would be I'd be a duelist in terms
Speaker 7: of creation, firm distinction between a creator and the rest
Speaker 7: of creation. But I'm not a geocentrist. So what about you, Oh,
Speaker 7: Derek asked about that earlier. Should I answer that?
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean we're coming on at the end
Speaker 1: of the show, and but yeah, ancient lady, hey, thanks
Speaker 1: for calling, and uh, definitely stay up with us on
Speaker 1: Facebook and everything. I appreciate you pushing the show as well.
Speaker 1: We're coming up on the end of the show and
Speaker 1: I just really wanted to see you know, final thoughts
Speaker 1: if you had anything to say. Would definitely give out
Speaker 1: your website and everything. And I totally appreciate you coming
Speaker 1: on the show and so much information was given tonight
Speaker 1: and definitely want to have you back on because we
Speaker 1: didn't even really touch the sitch and stuff or you
Speaker 1: know a lot of other stuff we can get into, man,
Speaker 1: but we really did cover a lot with the Divine
Speaker 1: Counsel of the Eloheim and anybody who's a beginner, I
Speaker 1: think you covered it and nailed it on the head
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of more a lot of
Speaker 1: questions are going to rise up, and if anybody has
Speaker 1: any questions, you could definitely get doctor Heiser's email address
Speaker 1: from his website and you can contact him through his website.
Speaker 1: You go to Michael Heiser dot com, Michael H. E.
Speaker 1: E I S E R dot com. And I guess
Speaker 1: with these last few moments, if there's anything that you
Speaker 1: had to say that you wanted to reiterate on you
Speaker 1: know before we ended. I guess now's the chance.
Speaker 7: The homepage is actually Michael ass Heiser. Since can my
Speaker 7: name my last name? I got to redirect. They could
Speaker 7: use www dots d R as in doctor the abbreviation
Speaker 7: r SAH dot com, and it'll take you to that page.
Speaker 7: I think. For our subject tonight, Divine Council stuff, go
Speaker 7: to my home page dr MSH dot com. There's a
Speaker 7: link on the left hand side. There's a link at
Speaker 7: the top and since Divine Council, and you'll be taken
Speaker 7: directly to my's devoted to that subject and you'll find
Speaker 7: a lot of there. I think we'll go a long
Speaker 7: way to answering questions, probably raising other questions too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, it's kind of an introductory.
Speaker 1: I think there's so many more questions that come on things,
Speaker 1: especially with the sitch and stuff, because you tackle a
Speaker 1: lot of half truths there, and we definitely want to
Speaker 1: get into that. I mean, I watched your whole series
Speaker 1: with the Sitching is Wrong stuff, and I've showed a
Speaker 1: lot of people some really interesting stuff there. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of people will definitely admire Sitchen's work, and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, you know, denounce it all. But there's definitely
Speaker 1: some things that he is wrong on and you addressed
Speaker 1: that with the website sitchenswrong dot com.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and if people want to go to UH they
Speaker 7: want to watch, there's a three hour video on YouTube
Speaker 7: called Ancient Aliens Debunks. I'm in that in different parts
Speaker 7: of it, but it's a really good UH documentary. As
Speaker 7: far as the terms of the ancient astronaut Perry, that's
Speaker 7: those ideas. I think it's really well worth watching. It's
Speaker 7: got over a million and a half years already, it's
Speaker 7: only been out since September. I would think it's people
Speaker 7: who are interested in that subject watch documentary. It's free
Speaker 7: hours of it.
Speaker 1: Totally well. Like I said, you know, it's a blessing
Speaker 1: to have you on the show, and we're definitely gonna
Speaker 1: have this show archived on YouTube. You can go there
Speaker 1: and check it out and check out some of the
Speaker 1: past shows that we had some amazing stuff on there.
Speaker 1: Next week we're gonna be talking to UH Gemini of
Speaker 1: the group Conspiratuality talking about conspiracy UH, conspiracy facts, the
Speaker 1: difference between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact truths movement, with
Speaker 1: nine to eleven Truth actually in Canada, so I wanna
Speaker 1: be speaking with him next week. So thanks for calling,
Speaker 1: doctor Heizer, and I definitely wanna have you back on
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to schedule something else. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: coming well.
Speaker 7: I appreciate it just plumbing out.
Speaker 1: All right, brother, thanks so much. And with that being said, man,
Speaker 1: I definitely want to thank all of the callers, everybody
Speaker 1: participating in the chat room. It's you know, it's an honor,
Speaker 1: it's a blessing that you guys tune in and you
Speaker 1: just got a platform here for everybody to ask their
Speaker 1: questions to their you know, favorite researchers. And we feature
Speaker 1: guests every week. Some of them have different belief systems,
Speaker 1: some of them specialize on different topics. We're gonna be
Speaker 1: speaking with Jim and next week after that, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be speaking to John Illuminati Congo. We're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: about sacred breathing. It's gonna be an amazing show because
Speaker 1: he is a deep individual who I mean, you can
Speaker 1: just be lulled asleep by listening to him because all
Speaker 1: the information, I mean, it's it's amazing. And then after
Speaker 1: that we're gonna be speaking with Jordan Maxwell and I
Speaker 1: know nobody's a you know, stranger to his name. And
Speaker 1: if you got questions for these guys, or if you
Speaker 1: have input you want to share, definitely contact me and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, contact us on the show, send me an email,
Speaker 1: send me a comment on the video, if you have
Speaker 1: anybody you think that we should interview, any topics you
Speaker 1: want us to cover, and we're definitely gonna do it.
Speaker 1: This is a show for you guys to call in
Speaker 1: and it's a platform for you. It wouldn't it, wouldn't
Speaker 1: you know, exist without you guys, So thanks so much
Speaker 1: for tuning in, Piece and blessings to everyone listening. Thanks
Speaker 1: so much again from the bottom of my heart, Sloan Piece,