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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 4: Killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK every
Speaker 4: Week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski Good Evening. Known as
Speaker 4: the Vampire Rapist or Strangler Bill for his distinctive modus operandi,
Speaker 4: Wayne Bowden would rape, strangle, and bite the breast of
Speaker 4: his victims. Rampage would continue in two cities over three years.
Speaker 4: He was only caught by superior evidence gathering and the
Speaker 4: help of an orthodontist. This book asked a question, how
Speaker 4: do we really know people when we don't want to
Speaker 4: ask the questions, not only because we don't want to
Speaker 4: know the answers for what it will tell us about them,
Speaker 4: but because of what it tells about ourselves. True crime
Speaker 4: author Alan R. Warn takes you through the details of
Speaker 4: the case, including the dental impressions used in court to
Speaker 4: convict Boden, a first in Canadian history, as well as
Speaker 4: Boden's escape from a maximum security prison.
Speaker 3: The book that we're featuring this evening is Bloodthirst True
Speaker 3: Story of Wayne Bowden, Vampire Rapists, serial Killer, with my
Speaker 3: special guest, journalist and author and podcaster Alan R.
Speaker 4: Warren.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 3: for a greeted hiss interview. Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. It is always our pleasure. Let's
Speaker 3: get right to this. I won't ask why you got
Speaker 3: involved in this. This is just an incredible story, and
Speaker 3: so get to this incredible story. You opened this book
Speaker 3: with talking about Wayne Boden's early life and where he
Speaker 3: grew up. Which has done this Ontario? So tell our audience,
Speaker 3: our international and American audience, where done this is in
Speaker 3: comparison to say, Toronto and the nearest big city that
Speaker 3: it's located to before we talk about the early life
Speaker 3: of Wayne Boden.
Speaker 2: Well done. This is really just a couple of miles
Speaker 2: from Hamilton, Ontario, and now it's kind of surrounded by Hamilton.
Speaker 2: It's become part of the city. But back when he
Speaker 2: grew up there in the sixties, it was very rural
Speaker 2: and not even really a city. It's more of a
Speaker 2: rural town. Just it's just it's hard to explain. So
Speaker 2: he didn't grow up in a big community. It was
Speaker 2: very small and very everybody kind of knew everybody, and
Speaker 2: it's one of those picturesque communities that you sort of
Speaker 2: see on little house in the prairie type thing. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so nothing, you know, one of those wholesome communities. You know,
Speaker 2: walk six miles school and back. So it's it's kind
Speaker 2: of a nice area to grow up in. And since then,
Speaker 2: of course it's it's kind of the city of Hamilton's
Speaker 2: grown right out and around it and kind of in
Speaker 2: in compass, just taken everything into it. So it's it's
Speaker 2: a different place now than what it was when he
Speaker 2: grew up there in the sixties.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about Wayne's father's named Albert. You said
Speaker 3: he worked in a factory. He died when he was eighteen,
Speaker 3: and his mother was named Laverna, and she was thirty
Speaker 3: four when she had Wayne, and he was an older child.
Speaker 3: So tell us what you did find about his upbringing,
Speaker 3: as much as you could find out about his somewhat
Speaker 3: strange upbringing in this dome was there.
Speaker 2: It was kind of yeah, it was kind of scattered,
Speaker 2: you know. He seems like his father died he was
Speaker 2: still fairly young, and he never really had a connection
Speaker 2: with his father. His parents slept in separate rooms, and
Speaker 2: his mother was quite a bit older, and she didn't
Speaker 2: read and write, but she used Wayne to do a
Speaker 2: lot of the things for him for her in the
Speaker 2: household that she couldn't do because she couldn't read and write.
Speaker 2: She was very strict, authoritative, and it just had things
Speaker 2: that everything had to be done at a certain time,
Speaker 2: everybody ate at the right time. Like it was very
Speaker 2: you know, very planned precise, and she didn't take much
Speaker 2: for any sort of variance. So if he was late
Speaker 2: or if in order he got wrong with the dairy
Speaker 2: man and things like that, he would get in a
Speaker 2: lot of heck for it from her. And there wasn't
Speaker 2: really a loving relationship. There was no no bonding there.
Speaker 2: There was. I don't know if it was the age
Speaker 2: that cost us, the diff difference in age and what
Speaker 2: exactly it was, and having no siblings. He spent a
Speaker 2: lot of his time alone and now at school, he
Speaker 2: played on the football team, but yet was not real popular.
Speaker 2: And the girls liked him because he had a good
Speaker 2: build and he was very quiet, soft spoken, and you know,
Speaker 2: handsome for them. So the girls did like him. But
Speaker 2: he spent his time with teachers, and he was known
Speaker 2: kind of as a teacher's pet. You know, he would
Speaker 2: stay after class, you know, and clean the boards and
Speaker 2: do all the things that you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: people kind of thought of him as a teacher suck,
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of image, and he did get
Speaker 2: himself into a few fights. So he wasn't real close
Speaker 2: to anybody in school and didn't have a lot of
Speaker 2: friends or relationships with people, so it was kind of
Speaker 2: a He spent a lot of time alone, and as
Speaker 2: we learned later, he sort of fantasized a lot and
Speaker 2: had dreams for himself becoming something and someone very popular,
Speaker 2: even though he was very shy.
Speaker 3: You also talk and I think this is very important
Speaker 3: that you didn't really make this obvious, but very very
Speaker 3: interesting psychologically, is that you talked about his mother not
Speaker 3: being able to read or write, and he kind of
Speaker 3: resented that she didn't, and that she was embarrassed. And
Speaker 3: you write in a book that he told his teachers
Speaker 3: at school that she wasn't even alive. That's how embarrassed
Speaker 3: he was. And part of this fantasizing, too, was that
Speaker 3: he really did admire these teachers and felt comfortable around
Speaker 3: almost no one accept these teachers, which, as we'll find
Speaker 3: a little bit later, is quite important teacher.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, he seemed to have a real
Speaker 2: affection for smart woman. It's sort of how I put it,
Speaker 2: because it was it was all about people that were,
Speaker 2: you know, ladies that were able to be assertive and
Speaker 2: smart and you know, in the sixties, but that was
Speaker 2: kind of a new thing, right. It wasn't as common
Speaker 2: as it is now. You know. It just wasn't the
Speaker 2: same feeling about the ladies in society than how it
Speaker 2: is now.
Speaker 3: Now. He had aspirations. He had good looks, you say,
Speaker 3: these muscular played football, but he also thought he might
Speaker 3: have aspirations to model. He tried to be a salesman.
Speaker 3: Told us a little bit about his aspirations and what
Speaker 3: the results were, and what did he attribute any kind
Speaker 3: of failure If he did have any what would he
Speaker 3: attribute that to.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's strange. He sort of had the
Speaker 2: idea he would always have dreams, as he wrote, how
Speaker 2: he would fantasize in his room all night about being
Speaker 2: someone famous, and he would affixed himself to a famous
Speaker 2: celebrity at the time and dreamed that he was that person.
Speaker 2: And he always saw himself on stage, almost like a singer,
Speaker 2: and he always saw himself as people loved him. And
Speaker 2: this never really happened and it never really came to be.
Speaker 2: You know. His reason for moving to larger cities, first
Speaker 2: Hamilton and then Montreal was to get in to be
Speaker 2: a model, you know, because where he was in the
Speaker 2: Dundee Valley, there was no jobs for models. There was
Speaker 2: really no jobs. And his first jump was to go
Speaker 2: to Hamilton, which is kind of the Canadian equivalent of
Speaker 2: Pittsburgh or you know, more of a steel town, more
Speaker 2: of a manufacturing place. So we're not talking a real
Speaker 2: good location for a man to be a model, you know.
Speaker 2: So he didn't stay there long and he skipped right
Speaker 2: into Montreal because Montreal at that time was the really
Speaker 2: the party capital of Canada, and it was known for
Speaker 2: its art and clubs and shopping and atmosphere, food. You know,
Speaker 2: it was really the place to be. So, you know,
Speaker 2: we even had you know, by sixty seven the Expo
Speaker 2: was in Montreal and you had ed sellon broadcasting as
Speaker 2: shows from Montreal. We had Jerry Lewis, we had so
Speaker 2: many celebrities in Montreal at the time. It was the
Speaker 2: place to be. So that's where he had it, and
Speaker 2: he tried unsuccessfully to get different modeling jobs. Now I
Speaker 2: find nowhere in his writings, and nowhere in any information
Speaker 2: did he feel there was a problem with himself and
Speaker 2: that he wasn't getting a job because there was something wrong.
Speaker 2: He thought it just wasn't the timing it would happen.
Speaker 2: So I don't think he ever stopped believing throughout the
Speaker 2: whole Montreal time, because he kept trying, but he would
Speaker 2: only end up with rep jobs or sales jobs where
Speaker 2: he would travel around the city and visit accounts. You know,
Speaker 2: he would be like a sales rep for a beauty
Speaker 2: line or a hairline and he would go into you know,
Speaker 2: different drug stores and he'd be selling to them, you know,
Speaker 2: the product and the sets and stuff and getting a commission.
Speaker 2: And that seemed to be the best he ever got
Speaker 2: as far as getting out there and selling. He was
Speaker 2: really quiet. Remember he was very soft spoken and very
Speaker 2: very shy, and so that doesn't really go well in
Speaker 2: the sales business either, right, So you know, he never
Speaker 2: lasted more than well, I would say he'd did six
Speaker 2: months to a year at a at a certain sales
Speaker 2: job he would have and then it would he would
Speaker 2: end up with getting another one because the numbers weren't
Speaker 2: there and he so he did flip those jobs pretty frequently.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about him moving, and this is in
Speaker 3: the summer of nineteen sixty seven. He was born in
Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight, so we're talking nineteen years always a
Speaker 3: young man. He's living in Montreal and all the heady environment.
Speaker 3: So in July and and tell us about again this
Speaker 3: is you explain, this is a very very awkward person,
Speaker 3: is very uncomfortable with people, it seems, and yet he
Speaker 3: was did not speak French as well. But what did
Speaker 3: he see? Did he enjoy Montreal? And did he come
Speaker 3: out of his shell somewhat or more so in Montreal?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in some cases it would appear that
Speaker 2: he did come out and did come out more, but
Speaker 2: I think he was in a transition then, you know,
Speaker 2: and I think he had periods of time where he
Speaker 2: was himself and being alone, and then times where he
Speaker 2: would go out and become aggressive. But you know, little
Speaker 2: things started happening. You know, when he would he would
Speaker 2: walk down Saint Catharine's which is a really major street
Speaker 2: in Montreal, big shopping district, and he would stand in
Speaker 2: the middle of the road and put his arms out,
Speaker 2: close his eyes and put his head up. And he
Speaker 2: would find himself getting excited having the crowds of people
Speaker 2: touching his hands as they were walking by. You know,
Speaker 2: you get a picture. This is a very busy, busy
Speaker 2: street and you know, I don't want to say it
Speaker 2: this way, but I guess people were used to kind
Speaker 2: of weird people in the big cities. You know, you're
Speaker 2: walking down the main drag and there's you know, there's
Speaker 2: some people that are not normal. So they would just
Speaker 2: brush by and look at him and not really give
Speaker 2: them you know, second thought type thing. Just thought, well,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of a nut because here's this guy
Speaker 2: standing in the middle of the road with his arms
Speaker 2: out and his eyes closed and hands it. You know,
Speaker 2: it just sort of seems strange. But he was finding
Speaker 2: himself getting a little bit thrilled by the unknown people
Speaker 2: walking by and touching him and moving him and brushing
Speaker 2: him almost in a way, being pushed by people and
Speaker 2: being called names. In a sense, he sort of enjoyed that.
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I never did figure out what
Speaker 2: about that particularly that he liked. Maybe he felt in
Speaker 2: control and yet lost in such a large crowd. You know,
Speaker 2: that's just me guessing there was some thing about that.
Speaker 2: He started looking forward to going out and walking around
Speaker 2: doing that, so this became a common thing. Later we
Speaker 2: find out he wasn't really liking Montreal very much. He
Speaker 2: had a tough time driving there. He had a tough
Speaker 2: time because it's not a city like Calgary, where he
Speaker 2: moved later and some others were. It's really open, a
Speaker 2: lot less people and easier to get around. You can
Speaker 2: get out in the car and drive and you know,
Speaker 2: within a half hour forty five minutes you'd be out
Speaker 2: of the city. So he missed that freedom that he
Speaker 2: probably had back in the Dundee Valley when he was
Speaker 2: growing up.
Speaker 3: Now you talk. In nineteen sixty seven, in July, near
Speaker 3: the end of July, a woman named Norma Valancourt from
Speaker 3: a little small town, twenty one years old, is taking
Speaker 3: some course. He has to come to Montreal to finished
Speaker 3: some courses to become a school teacher. But she's enjoying Montreal,
Speaker 3: being from a small town. Montreal's great, and she's dating
Speaker 3: and she has some friends there. So tell us about
Speaker 3: this Norma Valancourt, this school teacher, aspiring school teacher. What
Speaker 3: was she like and when did her friends? What did
Speaker 3: she tell her friends when she came home from shopping
Speaker 3: one night July twenty third, nineteen sixty seven.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Norma, she was fairly young, you know, twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one, and like a lot of people, were attracted
Speaker 2: to Montreal. So she came from a small town, like
Speaker 2: you said, and she was looking, you know, because they
Speaker 2: offered courses she could become the teacher she wanted, and
Speaker 2: she was kind of an independent person. And again this
Speaker 2: was kind of like the time of you know, Mary
Speaker 2: Tyler Moore, you know, and I hate to use that,
Speaker 2: but it kind of gives you the idea that that
Speaker 2: become a very popular symbol for single ladies. They wanted
Speaker 2: to empower and become independent and have their own apartment,
Speaker 2: which was you know, I want people to realize in
Speaker 2: sixty seven that was not normal. This was kind of
Speaker 2: a breaking a new trend, if you will. The independency,
Speaker 2: having a job, being a single woman, and having your
Speaker 2: own apartment in the city was not like it is now.
Speaker 2: It was not a common thing, and some people didn't
Speaker 2: like it. Some people would say bad things about it.
Speaker 2: But in her case, she was totally excited. She you know,
Speaker 2: she loved it. She gained lots of friends, and this
Speaker 2: was what she was looking for in life, and she
Speaker 2: was she couldn't she couldn't say enough whenever she went
Speaker 2: home or talked to her mother about how good this was,
Speaker 2: and and she was meeting guys and this was an
Speaker 2: exciting time. She would be able to go out and
Speaker 2: have dates, go have good restaurants, go for a drink,
Speaker 2: and so she was excited. And then I know that
Speaker 2: the time you were talking about is when she was
Speaker 2: shopping and she she had told her friends that she
Speaker 2: had to go home early and not stay out late,
Speaker 2: as she you know, was planning an early day the
Speaker 2: next day and she had to go to bed. But
Speaker 2: in truth, she was actually set up a date with
Speaker 2: a man and she had met him at a club
Speaker 2: a few nights earlier, and they hit it off instantly.
Speaker 2: He was very handsome, well spoken, lots of manners, you know,
Speaker 2: to hold the doors, the chairs, everything. So she was
Speaker 2: really taken by him. And so as soon as she
Speaker 2: got home from her shopping she had to put on
Speaker 2: a new outfit and get her makeup done and be
Speaker 2: all ready and she wanted to tidy up the place.
Speaker 2: And then her date came and the next day she
Speaker 2: just never showed up for work, and her friends started
Speaker 2: getting worried. I think about four point thirty five.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: Soon after that somebody phoned the police and they were
Speaker 2: an anonymous phone call and said that a young woman
Speaker 2: had fallen ill and needed police assistance, and they didn't
Speaker 2: identify themselves, and before you know it, the police showed
Speaker 2: up and the apartment door was slightly open and they
Speaker 2: went in and no answer, and before you know it,
Speaker 2: in her bedroom they found her and she was laid
Speaker 2: out on the bed and she was dead, and there
Speaker 2: was no immediate obvious signs of why she had died.
Speaker 2: They just there was nothing that really gave it away.
Speaker 2: There was a two drops of blood on one of
Speaker 2: the bed sheets, so they thought this could be fel play,
Speaker 2: and so they brought in uh Commander Cheap and he
Speaker 2: did the search and and talked to the neighbors and
Speaker 2: and then the photograph and you know, they took photographs
Speaker 2: and and you know, they they after a while they
Speaker 2: realized that the blood had came from her nipples and
Speaker 2: her I believe her right neck neck. I think it
Speaker 2: was the right neck that he had did on the
Speaker 2: bite marks, and so that was it, center to the corner.
Speaker 2: And it just was one of those real shocking things
Speaker 2: because she was very popular and everybody seemed to love her.
Speaker 2: And back then you've got to realize the technology was,
Speaker 2: you know, not the best in the sixties, so it
Speaker 2: was just one of those unknown things at the time.
Speaker 3: So there was that information about the breast being bitten
Speaker 3: and blood being drawn. Was hold back information held back
Speaker 3: by the police.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, at the time, they didn't give it
Speaker 2: out to the media. Canada has never been really I
Speaker 2: don't know to say, they've never been really good at
Speaker 2: putting out all this information. They might talk about a murder,
Speaker 2: but it's not like they would market it so to speak.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like they would give it out. I think
Speaker 2: they were trying to keep it back then, just there's
Speaker 2: just a little bit secret as well, kind of hide
Speaker 2: a few things, not only from the public or media,
Speaker 2: but just in case they come up with suspects.
Speaker 3: You know, now the person too, you mentioned the commander
Speaker 3: detective or the lead detective, and this will be important
Speaker 3: later as you know, the ties to this case is
Speaker 3: Andre Bouchard. So we'll just right for those listening, we'll
Speaker 3: remember that name, that lead detective, Andre Bouchard, will be
Speaker 3: re born. Later they realized that this person was known
Speaker 3: to this woman at least they didn't know how long. So,
Speaker 3: like you say, the technology was all technology was in
Speaker 3: his infancy at that time. There's no more leads. They
Speaker 3: followed up with a canvas of the neighborhood and things
Speaker 3: and maybe if anybody thought she had it, but she
Speaker 3: didn't have a steady boyfriend. No, So this case goes cold,
Speaker 3: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes cold pretty quick because they didn't you know,
Speaker 2: they checked around with people she was in school with
Speaker 2: and her neighbors, and talked to her family and what
Speaker 2: friends they could find. And she was a fairly I
Speaker 2: don't know, she was very very outgoing and she spent
Speaker 2: a lot of time going out shopping and going to bars,
Speaker 2: and she was really taking advantage of the city of Montreal.
Speaker 2: So it was really hard to pinpoint anybody, especially with
Speaker 2: her at this time, because there was really nobody. They
Speaker 2: talked to a lot of people, but there was nothing
Speaker 2: that led them to any suspects.
Speaker 3: Right now, you fast forward to the summer of nineteen
Speaker 3: sixty nine and a woman that's twenty years old named
Speaker 3: Shirley Audette, and she had moved to a Montreal and
Speaker 3: she had lived in the suburbs you say, least of
Speaker 3: the city, and she wasn't a school teacher. So tell
Speaker 3: us a little bit about Shirley Audette and what she's
Speaker 3: doing in Montreal and about her boyfriend and her living
Speaker 3: conditions before we talk about what happened in that summer.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she was a little bit. She was different
Speaker 2: than the other girls what we get to in even Noorma,
Speaker 2: because yeah, she wasn't really an aspiring teacher, and she
Speaker 2: wasn't really an aspiring anything. And she had been in
Speaker 2: and out of mental hospitals and had lots of treatments,
Speaker 2: was on several drugs at the time for anxiety and
Speaker 2: stress and highs and lows she was kind of an unusual,
Speaker 2: shaky person, and she lived. She moved in with a guy,
Speaker 2: and she moved into the Dorchester and an apartment building
Speaker 2: in Montreal downtown. And she was only twenty, but she
Speaker 2: was pregnant. Now it's kind of hard to determine whether
Speaker 2: it was her boyfriends or not. And I only say
Speaker 2: that because she was known to her boyfriend as well
Speaker 2: as her friends that she had to be very promiscuous.
Speaker 2: She had an open relationship with her boyfriend, and she
Speaker 2: had several men over and she was also into I
Speaker 2: guess we would call it S and M. She was
Speaker 2: into a little bit of the rough stuff. And she
Speaker 2: would quite often have encounters with people she had met
Speaker 2: through a S and M group in the sixties, and
Speaker 2: a lot of them she wouldn't really know them. She
Speaker 2: would kind of know who they were, met them once
Speaker 2: and then would have an encounter with them. And it
Speaker 2: seemed to be okay. With the boyfriend, I you know,
Speaker 2: I can't explain exactly the details of their relationship other
Speaker 2: than he admitted that that's the type of relationship they
Speaker 2: had and that that is what she liked. So the
Speaker 2: best I can say is she she never really worked,
Speaker 2: and she was on some sort of medication and had,
Speaker 2: you know, real panicky issues, real real psychological issues going
Speaker 2: on for a young girl in the city.
Speaker 3: How is it that she may come in contact with
Speaker 3: her killer and she's living in this apartment building. So
Speaker 3: tell us about her behavior that leads to her demise.
Speaker 2: Well, she would quite often her boyfriend worked in shifts,
Speaker 2: and when he worked at night, she hate it being alone.
Speaker 2: She was always scared, and so quite often she would
Speaker 2: sit out the front of her building on the stairs
Speaker 2: and would just talk to people. And so I'm trying
Speaker 2: to give you the type of picture who she was.
Speaker 2: She was like only one hundred and thirty five pounds,
Speaker 2: five foot two, She's a small girl, and she so
Speaker 2: she wasn't threatening and she was very friendly, and so
Speaker 2: she would stand out there and talk to people and
Speaker 2: people would sit beside her on the stairs. She was
Speaker 2: very but she would do this all night. She would
Speaker 2: be like three in the morning, four in the morning
Speaker 2: because she didn't want to be alone in her apartment.
Speaker 2: And then when she did go back, she would quite
Speaker 2: often call her friends at two three in the morning
Speaker 2: and even call her boyfriend at work. And she did
Speaker 2: this all the time. So she was really nervous, is
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. It's the best word. I don't want
Speaker 2: to call her anxious, but very nervous, and that I
Speaker 2: don't really know why. It's not like she had been
Speaker 2: attacked or any of this sort of stuff before. And now,
Speaker 2: as far as we can understand, and that's from Wayne later,
Speaker 2: it's they had met on the front stairs when he
Speaker 2: was coming home from one of his jobs at night,
Speaker 2: and that particular night, her boyfriend was at work and
Speaker 2: they had met on the stairs, got along quite well,
Speaker 2: and she had invited them in. So, you know, early
Speaker 2: on in the book, I don't really go through what
Speaker 2: happened in her case because we didn't know until later
Speaker 2: after finding out what Wayne Bone said, and so we
Speaker 2: only go by what he said, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Because all of a sudden, you know, the boyfriend comes
Speaker 2: home the next morning after work, and I think her
Speaker 2: shoes were found out front. She wasn't there, and in
Speaker 2: the back was where she was found, laying up against
Speaker 2: one of the fire escape stairways, and she had fully closed,
Speaker 2: you know, except for her shoes, and she had been
Speaker 2: strangled and someone again had been rough with her and
Speaker 2: bit and there was blood as well, So I'm not
Speaker 2: sure if you want me to go further into that,
Speaker 2: I said Wain's point of view of what happened, because at.
Speaker 3: That well, let's talk about let's talk about the similarities
Speaker 3: in terms of the blood letting. Was there the breast
Speaker 3: mutilation like and was there blood letting? Was there blood drawn?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was much the same blood on the neck,
Speaker 2: but on hers it was both sides of the neck
Speaker 2: and both breasts, but the left breast was is chewed
Speaker 2: on or mutilate it a lot more so it seemed
Speaker 2: like it was the same formula. And also both girls
Speaker 2: had been strangled, so it's sort of the same thing.
Speaker 2: It's sort of the same concept as and the person
Speaker 2: that was doing it was interested in tasting the blood
Speaker 2: and drawing the blood out, strangling them and raping them
Speaker 2: and with her. The only difference was she was found
Speaker 2: outside and she was fully closed, whereas the norm of
Speaker 2: the one before and actually the ones after were not.
Speaker 2: They were found all in their apartment, So it's sort
Speaker 2: of a different sat up in that way.
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Speaker 3: Is very interesting that obviously they clear the boyfriend of
Speaker 3: any possibility of being a good suspect. But they also
Speaker 3: again continue.
Speaker 2: To not.
Speaker 3: Reveal that that there was that breast mutilation or blood
Speaker 3: being drawn or any vampire mention. However, tell us what
Speaker 3: the police behind the scenes are saying and what are
Speaker 3: they talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, the police, of course had a different opinion
Speaker 2: about what was going on, a different one than what
Speaker 2: they were letting out. And the other thing that we
Speaker 2: have to think of back then, and when I talk
Speaker 2: to the different people that the police that are still
Speaker 2: alive and still part of this case, every one of
Speaker 2: them had to mention about how bad the police were
Speaker 2: being treated at the time. And I only bring this
Speaker 2: out and I specifically wrote a chapter because they made
Speaker 2: it a point to me, almost like excuse because we
Speaker 2: go through a couple of more murders in Montreal and
Speaker 2: really nobody's caught, and really it takes an accident for
Speaker 2: it to come out in the public what was going on.
Speaker 2: It wasn't something that they put out immediately, and a
Speaker 2: lot of it comes from they were you know, in
Speaker 2: sixty seven, there was the expo, there was a separationists
Speaker 2: group in Montreal. Charles de Gaul from France was there
Speaker 2: Viva in the Quebec, and they wanted this separation and
Speaker 2: it would become a political party. And the police were
Speaker 2: dealing with, you know, one hundred bombings a year in
Speaker 2: the city, plus lots of other stress, and they felt
Speaker 2: they were totally underpaid and they were over pressured for
Speaker 2: what the work they were doing. And they all had
Speaker 2: to make it a point to me that I understood that.
Speaker 2: And I hate to say this, but it's almost became
Speaker 2: an excuse of why they didn't really, I don't want
Speaker 2: to say investigate, but they they seemed to not put
Speaker 2: a lot of ties in together, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: And so even though in their mind they knew there
Speaker 2: was something going on that they knew there was a vampire,
Speaker 2: and they knew there was this rapist killer going around,
Speaker 2: that wasn't really what the police that I talked to
Speaker 2: lat Oshimbo and some of them were, their focus was
Speaker 2: not on that. Their focus was on the city. And
Speaker 2: you know, in the night that they went on strike
Speaker 2: and then the fires and a police officer was killed
Speaker 2: and banks were robbed, so it sounds like it was
Speaker 2: a real turmoil. And even when they decided to go
Speaker 2: back to work. They were not happy to go back
Speaker 2: to work, they felt like because they were forced to
Speaker 2: go back by the government. So it's still very big
Speaker 2: in the minds of the police of Montreal from that time.
Speaker 2: And so that's still the biggest thing they mentioned when
Speaker 2: you talk to them about crimes from the late sixties.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that helps, but it sort of
Speaker 2: sets the stage of how and why the police were
Speaker 2: kind of maybe acting the way they were.
Speaker 3: Right now, do the police, you say, the police obviously
Speaker 3: make a connection, at least unofficially, that these two murders
Speaker 3: are by the same person.
Speaker 2: There's no leads.
Speaker 3: When is it that? And what are the conditions that
Speaker 3: Wayne Bowden decides to move to Calgary.
Speaker 2: Well, he doesn't move until a little bit later, and
Speaker 2: there's I believe, two more murders in Montreal, the same
Speaker 2: sort of patterns and so closer. You know, in the
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy early seventy he decides that he's going to
Speaker 2: head west and he ends up moving to Calgary. And
Speaker 2: it seemed to be, you know, was it that he
Speaker 2: wanted to get away? You know, he committed these crimes
Speaker 2: and who knows, you know. In his writing, his opinion
Speaker 2: that he didn't remember any of these murders. You know,
Speaker 2: at the time, he in his mind, he was thinking
Speaker 2: he was dating these girls and then they broke up
Speaker 2: and he never saw them again. And it wasn't until
Speaker 2: he's in Calgary that he starts having flashbacks and memories
Speaker 2: of the rapes and the killings and it sort of
Speaker 2: scares him and even he didn't want a date. And
Speaker 2: he was probably in Calgary a whole year before he
Speaker 2: first sought into to meeting someone and then where he
Speaker 2: eventually attacked and killed her. So in his mind, according
Speaker 2: to him, he's saying that he was avoiding dating girls
Speaker 2: because he was starting to remember. But in Montreal he
Speaker 2: didn't leave or run because he didn't remember hurting anybody.
Speaker 2: So that's another show you have got it, you know,
Speaker 2: and it comes from him, so and I'm not saying
Speaker 2: he's lying, but at the same time, I don't know
Speaker 2: how much of that's reality and how much it's that
Speaker 2: sort of his defense.
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, now you talk about the two other murders,
Speaker 3: so let's not skip over that. In January nineteen seventy
Speaker 3: you talk about a gene Way and this woman's like
Speaker 3: four foot eleven hundred and ten pounds. So I'm twenty
Speaker 3: four years old and she's in Montreal, and she had
Speaker 3: moved from a very rural area in Newfoundland from the
Speaker 3: East Coast and was working for a bank. So tell
Speaker 3: us about Jeane and how she comes to the web
Speaker 3: of Wayne Bowden.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, she was, like you were saying, you had
Speaker 2: a pretty good description of her. Now. In her neighborhood,
Speaker 2: she was a little bit outside of the downtown core
Speaker 2: and she was more in a kind of an upper
Speaker 2: middle class neighborhood. So it was considered a very safe neighborhood,
Speaker 2: very very comfortable neighborhood, a place that you could walk
Speaker 2: around and pretty much everybody you know, had jobs and
Speaker 2: everything was pretty you know, nothing really much happened. And
Speaker 2: she was dating a young man, Brian Caulfield, and he
Speaker 2: was twenty two years old, and they had met because
Speaker 2: he was working at a broker's and she was at
Speaker 2: a bank. And they had met when she was doing
Speaker 2: some sort of transaction or run for the bank to
Speaker 2: the broker and apparently they hit it off right away
Speaker 2: and become quite quite close and quite happy. And uh so,
Speaker 2: in in January, she was out shopping and she was
Speaker 2: looking for kind of new furnishings and she was trying
Speaker 2: to upgrade some She had different ideas about what she
Speaker 2: was going to do. And I think that what had
Speaker 2: happened was originally she started, you know, walking and looking around,
Speaker 2: and she started noticing a guy. Everywhere that she went,
Speaker 2: and every store that she was in she noticed the
Speaker 2: same guy, and it wasn't long before she realized he
Speaker 2: was following her, and she felt kind of scared, you know,
Speaker 2: a little bit nervous, and so eventually she ran into
Speaker 2: a photo studio and said to the clerk, you know,
Speaker 2: there's this guy following me, and I don't feel very comfortable.
Speaker 2: And she was scared. And he went out, looked around
Speaker 2: and he didn't see anything. Didn't see anybody, and he
Speaker 2: even said that, so he said, well, if you're really upset,
Speaker 2: I'll let you go out the employee entrance in the back.
Speaker 2: So he took her around to the back and let
Speaker 2: her go out, and she went along her way and
Speaker 2: he didn't see anybody following her, and he watched till
Speaker 2: she kind of went down the road and he came
Speaker 2: back out and thought everything was fine. So eventually she
Speaker 2: goes home and you figure, you know, everything's fine and so,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't. She again, she was the next murderer,
Speaker 2: and she was found dead. Actually, her boyfriend had come over.
Speaker 2: And you see, and that's a unique, unique thing because
Speaker 2: the boyfriend had come over after work, knocked on the door,
Speaker 2: no answer, So he went to a local pub like
Speaker 2: a tavern, had a few drinks, comes back, knocks, still
Speaker 2: no answer, and he thought that's kind of weird because
Speaker 2: at first he thought, well, maybe she's late. Then he
Speaker 2: tried the door, opened up and she's on the bed
Speaker 2: dead and she's been tied up. Goes to the police
Speaker 2: and lets them know. They come. But when we later
Speaker 2: here in Wayne Bowden's version, he was probably still in
Speaker 2: the apartment with her when the boyfriend first came. In fact,
Speaker 2: the first knock on the door, he was there with
Speaker 2: her and she was tied up and he was killing her.
Speaker 2: So it was kind of one of those you know.
Speaker 2: Of course, none of us knew this at the time,
Speaker 2: but according to Wayne's writings, this is what happened because
Speaker 2: he was in there when the boyfriend came, and so
Speaker 2: it was kind of a you know, kind of a
Speaker 2: one of those makes you kind of the hair stand
Speaker 2: up when you hear things like that. And again breasts
Speaker 2: were were chewed, and in fact, this one was pretty severe.
Speaker 2: He had really drank a lot of her blood and
Speaker 2: really kind of chewed her up. It really went aggressive
Speaker 2: on her. And why he never said why she was
Speaker 2: particularly he followed her and why he latched onto her,
Speaker 2: we don't really know exactly what it was because he
Speaker 2: had always looked for certain types of girls and I
Speaker 2: don't know what about her because she worked at a bank,
Speaker 2: But what about that scenario drew him there? So that
Speaker 2: was a kind of an interesting scenario. And then the boyfriend,
Speaker 2: of course was that first thought of as the person
Speaker 2: that was doing it, of course, because that's what they do.
Speaker 2: And they cleared him shortly after. So again that was
Speaker 2: another victim and really no leads.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about Wayne moving, the will jump ahead
Speaker 3: to nineteen seventy, Wayne decides to move to Calgary. You
Speaker 3: talk about Calgary being much different city. Four hundred thousand
Speaker 3: now it's one point one million by that time, before
Speaker 3: the big oil boom, before everybody from everywhere in can
Speaker 3: that came to Calgary was four hundred thousand people. And
Speaker 3: one of those people knew people moving to Calgary was
Speaker 3: Wayne Bowden, So tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 3: he was doing in Calgary in terms of work and
Speaker 3: why he decided to move to Calgary.
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of one of those again, you know.
Speaker 2: Later the police assumed that he was running from Montreal,
Speaker 2: running from the victims there, and I don't know if
Speaker 2: I believe that. I'm not sure because in his mind,
Speaker 2: he really didn't do any of these crimes, you know,
Speaker 2: he didn't. He just went out with girls, broke up
Speaker 2: with him and nothing happened. But he was he was
Speaker 2: thrilled that it was so open that he could drive
Speaker 2: around and there was no ceiling. You know, it's the
Speaker 2: big sky country. He felt very open. Plus, it also
Speaker 2: had the small town feel that his original home had,
Speaker 2: so it wasn't so congested like Montreal was. You know,
Speaker 2: you weren't having millions of people all in one short area,
Speaker 2: and he felt very spread out. There wasn't a lot
Speaker 2: of high rises, it didn't feel that way. Had a
Speaker 2: very country setting as well, and there were a lot
Speaker 2: of cowboys, you know. It was that it was really
Speaker 2: more cowboy country at that time than Oil. I mean,
Speaker 2: it was about to change and it was starting to change,
Speaker 2: but it was really kind of cowtown and he seemed
Speaker 2: to be retracted to that. He found people friendlier, he
Speaker 2: didn't have to know French. It was much cheaper. It
Speaker 2: was like half the price. He didn't have to pay
Speaker 2: for parking. You know. It was just a totally different atmosphere.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, he had lots of opportunity
Speaker 2: because it was starting to boom. There was tons of jobs.
Speaker 2: Sales jobs were really easy to get, and he started
Speaker 2: working again right away, and he started selling cowboy equipment
Speaker 2: though he knew nothing about it, and he seemed to
Speaker 2: jump right in, fit right in, and he sort of
Speaker 2: really loved the job, and he really loved what he
Speaker 2: was doing, and it was like starting new maybe or
Speaker 2: who knows, but this is where he said he started
Speaker 2: to have his nightmares and he started having flashbacks and
Speaker 2: memories of these girls being killed in his dreams in
Speaker 2: his mind, that these girls that he had dated or
Speaker 2: been out with, and he didn't remember doing it at
Speaker 2: the time, but he remembers it now. So he was
Speaker 2: kind of going through a weird time. And that's the
Speaker 2: best we can assume. We can only tell you what
Speaker 2: he said. And then kind of what the police believed,
Speaker 2: but I think it's somewhere in between. I think it's
Speaker 2: a combination of the two. And so he moved and
Speaker 2: seemed quite happy and would drive around a lot, and
Speaker 2: his course's territory went all the way to baf Banff
Speaker 2: is a real I mean, most people should know what
Speaker 2: Benv is now. It's a pretty terroisty ski town and
Speaker 2: it's a popular place to go, and so he would
Speaker 2: go out to there all the time, and that's where
Speaker 2: he met. His next victim was when he was in
Speaker 2: Bev on a trip.
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Speaker 3: we spoke about Wayne Bowden finally being in Calgary. He's
Speaker 3: more comfortable. He doesn't believe he has anything to worry about.
Speaker 3: But as you say, according to him, things are changing
Speaker 3: for him. So tell us about this next murder, tell.
Speaker 2: Us about this. Yeah. Yeah, he went to Banff and
Speaker 2: was doing some work, sales work, and he had saw
Speaker 2: a sticker, a Hamilton sticker on the back of a
Speaker 2: car and he saw a lady come out of it.
Speaker 2: And what it was was it was Elizabeth Portius. Now
Speaker 2: she was a school teacher in Calgary, and she was
Speaker 2: thirty eight and she had come out there with another
Speaker 2: teacher and they were shopping and they were going to
Speaker 2: meet for dinner, and so she was just waiting at
Speaker 2: the hotel bar for her friend, and that's when he
Speaker 2: spotted the car sticker, and so he ended up to
Speaker 2: her and said, Hey, I'm from Hamilton, and they hit
Speaker 2: it off. They had a couple of drinks, exchange phone
Speaker 2: numbers and had a really good time. So Ford. About
Speaker 2: a month later, back in Calgary, they had set up
Speaker 2: a date somehow, you know, he must have phoned her
Speaker 2: and they decided, well, let's kind of go out and
Speaker 2: do something. Now, I have to say, Elizabeth Portius now
Speaker 2: was a thirty eight year old teacher, but she was
Speaker 2: still single, and she had really been hoping to meet someone.
Speaker 2: But it was strange that she had chose Calgary as
Speaker 2: the place to live because she really didn't like ranchers
Speaker 2: or cowboys. She didn't really like the western thing. So
Speaker 2: I couldn't really find out in any direction from anybody
Speaker 2: why she would choose Calgary then, like that seemed to
Speaker 2: be the last place she would go if you don't
Speaker 2: like cowboys and ranchers, you know, especially back then. But
Speaker 2: that's where she was and she was still single and
Speaker 2: thirty eight. She did want to have children and she
Speaker 2: did want to be a wife, but she was very independent,
Speaker 2: so it had to be a particular type of guy.
Speaker 2: So it seemed like he was the perfect guy, and
Speaker 2: she was pretty excited. She told all the other teachers
Speaker 2: and friends that she was going to go on a
Speaker 2: date with this guy. And she was pretty excited because
Speaker 2: he was, you know, good looking, and worked and wasn't
Speaker 2: a cowboy, you know, he wasn't into all that stuff.
Speaker 2: And he liked smart women. He liked women that were
Speaker 2: teaching and being independent and equal to men. So they
Speaker 2: hit it off, and so they started to date. Now,
Speaker 2: of course, the same thing sort of happened to her.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, she turns up dead, he doesn't
Speaker 2: show up for her work. School sends people out and
Speaker 2: they find her and she was lying on the floor
Speaker 2: in the front of the center room, so in her
Speaker 2: front room, almost her greeting room. It's kind of them
Speaker 2: I nude, and and she had been she'd been a
Speaker 2: little bit more beaten than some of the other bodies.
Speaker 2: It looked like she had been into a scuffle, more
Speaker 2: of a fight. So it wasn't long before. Of course,
Speaker 2: the police were showed up in the forensic photographs and
Speaker 2: all that was done. And in this case we had
Speaker 2: Detective Rick Talbo who's still with Calgary Police Department, and
Speaker 2: so he did a lot of the investigations and what
Speaker 2: they had found on in her particular cases, she was
Speaker 2: wearing kind of a top of blouse and whoever had
Speaker 2: attacked the shirt open and all the buttons came off.
Speaker 2: But someone had taken a button from her. So why,
Speaker 2: you know, who knows, but they had because none of
Speaker 2: the other bodies in Montreal this was done to. So
Speaker 2: he chose to take one of her buttons home and
Speaker 2: so that was it. And so now the police started investigating,
Speaker 2: and of course they went to her work. And there
Speaker 2: was another male teacher that was with his wife the
Speaker 2: same night the night before when she was out on
Speaker 2: the date with Wayne Bowden, and he had seen them
Speaker 2: on I think it was Fourth Avenue which is one
Speaker 2: of the main streets, at a light. Now he saw
Speaker 2: them talking getting along really well in the car and
Speaker 2: didn't bother them, but he was able to give a
Speaker 2: description of the car. And also there was a particular
Speaker 2: kind of a bauble head kind of a lion or
Speaker 2: tagger that would shake, and it was in the back dash.
Speaker 2: Gribed all this. The police did a typical search and
Speaker 2: they found a couple of Mercedes that were the same color,
Speaker 2: and they kind of they waited outside and they spot
Speaker 2: at this one. They saw the head moving, so they
Speaker 2: went in and knocked on Wayne's door, and he was
Speaker 2: very polite. Police questioned him, brought him in, and that's
Speaker 2: kind of what was the beginning of the end for Wayne.
Speaker 3: You also talk about and just to show his cool
Speaker 3: nature under questioning. They had found a cuff link that
Speaker 3: was sort of embedded in her or on top of
Speaker 3: her Yeah, which yeah, police found and we'll talk about that.
Speaker 3: What they do with that information? Now they have the car,
Speaker 3: They bring him in for a question. He's not arrested.
Speaker 3: Tell us what proceeds from there, Why, what do they
Speaker 3: believe at that time and what call do they make?
Speaker 3: What do they find out about Montreal at that same
Speaker 3: time or shortly after? Tell us how this turn of
Speaker 3: events happens.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the officers brought him in and then
Speaker 2: when Taba was starting to talk to him and even
Speaker 2: you know, and this is a comment of Tabo himself,
Speaker 2: the detective. He said that what was he was a
Speaker 2: very nice and this is this is how charming he was.
Speaker 2: That cop actually said he was the Wayne Bone was
Speaker 2: the type of guy that he would be proud to
Speaker 2: be dating his own daughter. So even the detective liked
Speaker 2: him that much, you know. And so so he had
Speaker 2: a real charisma about him that was people liked. And
Speaker 2: so they sat down and talked, and at first I
Speaker 2: don't think they really thought this was the guy, because
Speaker 2: because that's what the cop was feeling about him, that's
Speaker 2: interviewing him. This guy's really nice, you know, he isn't
Speaker 2: the guy. And the thing that gave it away was
Speaker 2: the cuff link. Like you mentioned, the cuff link was
Speaker 2: found folded in the body of Portius, and so they
Speaker 2: brought it out in a bag and took a chance
Speaker 2: and showed it to him, and he said, yeah, that's mine.
Speaker 2: It was a particular one that was given to him
Speaker 2: from his kind of I think it was a grandmother
Speaker 2: gift to him. So it was unique. It wasn't just
Speaker 2: a store bought commercial thing. It was very unique. So
Speaker 2: he identified that and right away that kind of put
Speaker 2: their you know, the radar came up, you know, that
Speaker 2: kind of and then but the thing is, he was,
Speaker 2: like you said, very calm, and he was almost like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was mine. Actually I must have dropped it. Yeah
Speaker 2: I was with her. We dated and we went out,
Speaker 2: and he wasn't He didn't show the nervousness or you know,
Speaker 2: anything that would would make you think that he was
Speaker 2: the murderer. He just seemed so calm, and it was
Speaker 2: it was kind of an unusual thing. I think the
Speaker 2: police were kind of mixed into that. And yeah, when
Speaker 2: they find out about his history, like where you came from,
Speaker 2: and he's like, why vood from Montreal? And then they
Speaker 2: called back in Montreal and that's when they out about
Speaker 2: there was four different girls in Montreal that had been
Speaker 2: found with as much the same you know, strangled, raped,
Speaker 2: breasts and neck had been bitten, and blood had been
Speaker 2: taken and had much the same sort of scenario. So
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it sort of it e raised
Speaker 2: another flag, you know. And eventually another piece of evidence
Speaker 2: was when they searched his apartment, they found that button
Speaker 2: that had been collected from Elizabeth Partia's shirt her blouse.
Speaker 2: So you had three kind of substantial pieces of evidence
Speaker 2: that were kind of leaning towards he was with her
Speaker 2: when that blouse was ripped off, you know, becauseaid, why
Speaker 2: would he have her button?
Speaker 3: Now you talk also about again we talked about this
Speaker 3: incredible police work. It just happens to be a detective
Speaker 3: Madson just happened to be reading about the British police
Speaker 3: involved in a case where bitite marks had been identified
Speaker 3: and clearly established the identity of the person responsible for
Speaker 3: the crime. So and this evidence had been used in
Speaker 3: court before. So Masden tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: this initiative which is leads to this history making decision
Speaker 3: here or this evidence gathering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean when had happened is once they
Speaker 2: presented the three pieces of evidence to Wayne Bowden, he admits, okay,
Speaker 2: I did it to the girl Elizabeth Portius and Calgary,
Speaker 2: but not the Montreal girls. So that's kind of what
Speaker 2: they were thinking. Okay, you know, you know, so they
Speaker 2: called Montreal detectives from Montreal come out to talk to him,
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden he recants. When the
Speaker 2: Montreal detectives come and they say he also says, no,
Speaker 2: I didn't do it, you know. So they were all
Speaker 2: sitting there in Madison said well, we've got to have
Speaker 2: something more. We don't have enough. And he had been
Speaker 2: reading in like you were saying in British because they
Speaker 2: had solved about twenty murders now with bitemark technology, so
Speaker 2: they were actually imprinting and they had twenty nine points
Speaker 2: of teeth established in their little sort of formula of
Speaker 2: convicting someone from bite marks. And so at first they
Speaker 2: contacted the FBI, and the FBI said, no, we have
Speaker 2: never done this before. So they actually had to send
Speaker 2: to London and that's when they hired an orthodontist and
Speaker 2: they came out. And so even after Bowden says, yeah,
Speaker 2: I did it, and then he says, no, I didn't
Speaker 2: do it, they say, we'd like to take a dental impression.
Speaker 2: They said, yeah, okay, sure, So they let him take
Speaker 2: a dental impression of his mouth and he had no
Speaker 2: idea because you know, in the sixties, no one ever
Speaker 2: heard of this, and they I guess he wasn't scared
Speaker 2: at all. And with the dental impression, and the orthodotist
Speaker 2: was actually what convicted him. That was kind of the
Speaker 2: the thing that did it, because twenty seven of the
Speaker 2: twenty nine points matched perfectly on actually four of the
Speaker 2: five bodies, so they convicted him only four times over.
Speaker 3: Now with this as well, we've have to explain for
Speaker 3: our international audience that at the time and until recently
Speaker 3: not too many years ago, there was no concurrent sentencing,
Speaker 3: even for life sentences for any crime, including murder. So
Speaker 3: if you were to receive a life sentence in this
Speaker 3: particular case, you would have up to twenty five or
Speaker 3: twenty five years to life for first degree murder in
Speaker 3: this particular case, those other murders would be he would
Speaker 3: be given a life sentence, but concurrent sentencing, which means
Speaker 3: that they don't count. It's only the one life sentence,
Speaker 3: right correct.
Speaker 2: Right, right, Yeah, And that's sort of you know where
Speaker 2: it comes from. I don't know, like why they decided
Speaker 2: to do that, you know why that was so possibilities
Speaker 2: of parole come up on these cases, whereas if you know,
Speaker 2: you get put away twenty five years to life with
Speaker 2: possibility of parole in ten even though you've got four
Speaker 2: of them, you still can come up in ten years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So it's kind of you know, I think it doesn't
Speaker 2: it's it doesn't make sense, and it's not I don't
Speaker 2: think it's a you know, personally, I'm not behind that
Speaker 2: sort of thing. You know, if you'd get four life
Speaker 2: sentence or four to twenty five year sentences, that should
Speaker 2: be one hundred years.
Speaker 3: Sure, right, And I got to say too, the correction
Speaker 3: has been just a few years ago. You can now
Speaker 3: receiving Canada three consecutive twenty five year sentences, so in effect,
Speaker 3: you can get up to seventy five years before eligibility
Speaker 3: of parole.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So now let's talk about Wayne Bowden, because this is separate.
Speaker 3: Once you're going into an institution, it really doesn't matter
Speaker 3: that you bit one woman seventy seven times in her
Speaker 3: breast and drew blood. It really makes no difference. He's
Speaker 3: a model prisoner. So tell us about this model prisoner.
Speaker 3: Where he did time and what happens after ten years?
Speaker 3: As you write in your book, well, you.
Speaker 2: Know, he starts in Montreal and ends up in Toronto,
Speaker 2: like in Ontario. He's so he was in two different prisons.
Speaker 2: But he was a model prisoner. You know, he did
Speaker 2: all the right things, never caused a problem. He was trusted,
Speaker 2: you know, member trust it. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: a person behind bars and now Canada for some reason,
Speaker 2: in this time period of the seventies, decided that sexual
Speaker 2: predators such as him, people that had had attacked and
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted and killed someone or treat it worse by
Speaker 2: lifelong inmates. And because of that, we decided that we
Speaker 2: should have some compassion for these people and help with rehabilitation.
Speaker 2: So we would give them day passes. So in his
Speaker 2: particular case, they would take him to an art museum,
Speaker 2: because that was his desire, you know, So they thought
Speaker 2: that would be part of the rehabilitation, taking him out
Speaker 2: with an art professor and three guards, and they would
Speaker 2: spend the day with the professor explaining art and taking
Speaker 2: him on a tour. I guess as you will, and
Speaker 2: as well as they would take him for lunch at
Speaker 2: a hotel. And so you know, and I will say,
Speaker 2: he wasn't the only criminal that this went for. There
Speaker 2: wasn't like he was the only one. It was any
Speaker 2: model prisoners like himself that we're in for that kind
Speaker 2: of crime.
Speaker 3: Now, you say that he asked to use the washroom,
Speaker 3: and like protocol, you would think that one of the
Speaker 3: guards would go with him. But again, model prisoner, what
Speaker 3: happens and also tell us this very interesting point about
Speaker 3: because it's very important. As you draw this fantastic picture
Speaker 3: of the date from hell later a little bit later
Speaker 3: in the books, So tell us about what he achieves
Speaker 3: behind bars remarkably, Well, yeah it was.
Speaker 2: And you know, he went on this first day pass
Speaker 2: and nothing happened. Everything was great. He was he was
Speaker 2: a good prisoner, if you will. He went on the
Speaker 2: day path, did everything he was supposed to, came back,
Speaker 2: never caused trouble. Now, the second time they took him
Speaker 2: out at lunchtime, he needed to use the bathroom and
Speaker 2: they were in the hotel, and so what the guards
Speaker 2: did was because they were eating, all three of them
Speaker 2: said yeah, okay, go ahead, and they never accompanied him
Speaker 2: into the bathroom. He never came back. So he goes
Speaker 2: about his day. Now the top is off. When he
Speaker 2: was in prison, he applied for an American Express card
Speaker 2: and he got it, and he's in prison. Now, how
Speaker 2: a criminal in prison can get an American Express card? Now,
Speaker 2: I want to bring your attention to this. Is this,
Speaker 2: you know, the seventies, eighties, this whole period of time,
Speaker 2: an American Express card was a hard card to get
Speaker 2: at the time. Back then it was a special card.
Speaker 2: Remember it was one of those with no limits that
Speaker 2: you had to pay off every month. So it was
Speaker 2: kind of someone that's usually prestigious and had a lot
Speaker 2: of mone or a business or something that would happen.
Speaker 2: So how he got it, and he had it for
Speaker 2: seven years in prison and kept it so not only
Speaker 2: did when he escaped and the guards didn't follow him
Speaker 2: into the bathroom, but he had that card on him,
Speaker 2: so they didn't search him properly either. So he took
Speaker 2: that card. He bought new clothes, he rented a hotel,
Speaker 2: and then he started going out and eating and he
Speaker 2: was hanging out on the bars. So keep it blind.
Speaker 2: He didn't try to leave, He didn't try to escape.
Speaker 2: He didn't buy a plane ticket, he didn't buy a car,
Speaker 2: he didn't do anything weird. He just got a hotel,
Speaker 2: clothes and said, well, I'm going to have a good
Speaker 2: time and he went out to bars and that's when
Speaker 2: he met two ladies and at the first time, at
Speaker 2: a nighttime at a bar, had a really good time.
Speaker 2: They were really impressed with him because he was good
Speaker 2: looking or nice new clothes and had an American Express
Speaker 2: card and bought them rinks and then they had to
Speaker 2: go to work, so they didn't stay with them all night.
Speaker 2: And the next day one of the girls decides she's
Speaker 2: going to go on a date with him, and she
Speaker 2: was really smitten with him. She really thought he was
Speaker 2: the man. And so they're on their second date, kind
Speaker 2: of a lunch date in a pub and getting along great.
Speaker 2: And that's when the police did catch up with him.
Speaker 2: So that was the date from hell because when they
Speaker 2: just raid at the bar, and of course took him
Speaker 2: down and took her down too, because at the time
Speaker 2: they didn't know who's what you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: they just took him down. They booked her and him,
Speaker 2: threw her in one of the cars in cuffs and
Speaker 2: took her away, and she was in one of the
Speaker 2: interrogation rooms, had no idea what had happened. It was
Speaker 2: totally like, oh my god, it's like what's going on.
Speaker 2: And then they had to come in and tell her
Speaker 2: that who she was out with was the known vampire killer.
Speaker 3: Now I wanted to do this because sorry, I wanted
Speaker 3: to ask this. When he escaped, we didn't talk about
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously the police are more than embarrassed, it's
Speaker 3: beyond embarrassment, but how big a story was the escape
Speaker 3: of the Vampire Killer.
Speaker 2: It was almost nothing. It was almost nothing, And I
Speaker 2: attribute that to the time and the way Bedia was
Speaker 2: back then. I mean, it's not like we just now.
Speaker 2: Plus being in Canada, things were more limited and what
Speaker 2: information comes out escaped prisoner and that's it. It's not
Speaker 2: like they went on it. And our media didn't jump
Speaker 2: on this until after he was caught. So if there
Speaker 2: wasn't like a huge panic, but there was some, I
Speaker 2: don't know if that was sure.
Speaker 3: Very interesting is that. One of the most profound moments
Speaker 3: in this book is when do you have this woman again?
Speaker 3: They both meet Wayne Boden, but she is smitten. She's
Speaker 3: very excited about this date. Then she thinks, wow, what
Speaker 3: a gentleman. He asked me if I want to continue
Speaker 3: to date. I said no, But then I made another
Speaker 3: date for him, the lunch date, And she says, as
Speaker 3: you say in the book. According to her, she thought
Speaker 3: it was very gentlemanly like. But if he would have
Speaker 3: asked her to have a rendezvous that afternoon, she said
Speaker 3: she would have went for it. She was hook line
Speaker 3: and Sinker, very very interested in Wayne Bolden, wasn't she?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she told her friend that night, you know,
Speaker 2: the night before when they were all out for Drakes,
Speaker 2: that if she didn't have to work, she would have
Speaker 2: went home with him that night. She was so taken
Speaker 2: by him. Everything about him looks just everything, you know.
Speaker 2: So he had a charisma or charm that the police
Speaker 2: detectediked him. You know, he had a way about him.
Speaker 2: And I can't explain what it is because I don't know,
Speaker 2: you know, and then and at the time, you know,
Speaker 2: and the pictures that of him, you know, he had
Speaker 2: the sideburns, he had the right look for the time,
Speaker 2: so I guess he was the right looking guy in
Speaker 2: the right time period. It was just crazy and maybe
Speaker 2: being so soft spoken at the same time as being
Speaker 2: good looking just did it. I'm not sure. I'm not
Speaker 2: sure what the thing was, you know. But even when
Speaker 2: your detectives are saying, God, I'd like him to be
Speaker 2: dating my daughter, I mean, wow, wow, that's something. Now.
Speaker 2: An American Express, I will say, has done an internal
Speaker 2: investigation to find out why. We don't really know the results,
Speaker 2: and those three guards were reprimanded for the you know,
Speaker 2: not doing their job as we would say, you know,
Speaker 2: so there was proper follow up, according to authorities, but
Speaker 2: it's just another strange thing in crime that happens when
Speaker 2: we get into the policing and the jailing of people.
Speaker 3: It was interesting too, is the two women, Gloria Newsome
Speaker 3: and her friend Rita.
Speaker 2: They both.
Speaker 3: Remember him talking and see him calling himself Bill. But
Speaker 3: he also said he'd loved female teachers as they were
Speaker 3: always so intelligent and had such wonderful conversations. So it
Speaker 3: really was a big issue right from the very beginning
Speaker 3: that you could see coursing through these crimes and his
Speaker 3: life and his fantasies, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he had something about you know, and
Speaker 2: I sort of that's kind of what I attribute to
Speaker 2: the unusual, like you know, in gene aigh or something,
Speaker 2: someone that's not a teacher. But why was he following
Speaker 2: her and why he was so attracted? It must have
Speaker 2: been something about independence, about strength. So a single woman
Speaker 2: walking in buying furniture, a single woman going and being
Speaker 2: And it sounds silly now because this is something that
Speaker 2: happens all the time in modern times. You know, there's
Speaker 2: an equality and it's not unusual, but back then it
Speaker 2: was unusual. A Mary Tyler Moore image was not normal
Speaker 2: and to have a twenty year old instead of thirty
Speaker 2: five like they tried to portray with Mary was very
Speaker 2: strong and independent and sometimes not appreciated in society, you know,
Speaker 2: and look down upon. And some people were, even the police,
Speaker 2: when you talked and looked at the girls and when
Speaker 2: they were attacked, a lot of their attitude was, you know,
Speaker 2: that's it wasn't she wasn't a proper woman to be
Speaker 2: twenty and living in an apartment and working by herself
Speaker 2: in the city. Like a lot of the thought, you know,
Speaker 2: even the police were like, well, she was obviously not
Speaker 2: a proper woman. You know, what does that mean? You know,
Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine that being said in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well no it might not be said, but well
Speaker 3: it could be thought.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's just not the same, if that
Speaker 2: makes sense. It's not unusual. You gotta remember also when
Speaker 2: these girls were renting apartments and doing things, it was
Speaker 2: quite a challenge for a single woman to get an
Speaker 2: apartment in nineteen sixty seven. Yeah, probably, yeah, and we
Speaker 2: don't really realize the times it's changed that much. So
Speaker 2: it was kind of so they were kind of he
Speaker 2: sought out that independence. It wasn't like he was looking
Speaker 2: for a married woman or anything anything else. He just
Speaker 2: wanted a single, independent person that was able to manage himself.
Speaker 2: Because though he really had an attraction for teachers, he
Speaker 2: would also settle for someone that was, you know, living
Speaker 2: on their own and working at a bank, you know,
Speaker 2: so that there was something about independence and maybe teachers
Speaker 2: represented that for him. That was probably one of the
Speaker 2: first major jobs in the sixties or a female to
Speaker 2: have that was in a kind of an power position,
Speaker 2: you know. I'm you know, and again I can only
Speaker 2: guess because we can't say for sure. You know, why
Speaker 2: was he after a girl in a jewelry store and
Speaker 2: after the other one that was a banker. There was
Speaker 2: something about their independence that he found attractive.
Speaker 3: What did you find out after through the interviews with him,
Speaker 3: when he was more candid, or at least he seemed
Speaker 3: more candid. What did you determine as you wrote, as
Speaker 3: you include in the book, that Wayne Bowden said that differed,
Speaker 3: and what was his justification for this and how much
Speaker 3: did he actually admit to really in the end in
Speaker 3: terms of his responsibility for this.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, and I say that because
Speaker 2: I fluctuate back and forth. It's so hard to know
Speaker 2: what to believe when someone's so convinced of it himself.
Speaker 2: So when a person comes across, like he comes across
Speaker 2: saying that he had no memory of any of this stuff.
Speaker 2: But in the end he seemed to only see he
Speaker 2: would date these independent, strong women, but would never make
Speaker 2: a move on them sexually. And he was trying to
Speaker 2: avoid that because he always seemed to break up with them.
Speaker 2: They always seem to end, and then later he had
Speaker 2: the memories of what he did according to him, so
Speaker 2: in you know, he couldn't get aroused. So like when
Speaker 2: a woman started coming on to him and kissing him,
Speaker 2: he couldn't perform sexually unless he had blood in his mouth.
Speaker 2: He had to have the taste and the warmth of
Speaker 2: the blood, and that was what And so he would
Speaker 2: get involved with him and then he would go too
Speaker 2: far and draw blood by biting them on the neck
Speaker 2: or something. They would fight back, scream, and then that's
Speaker 2: when he would kick in and he would choke them.
Speaker 2: He would kill them, and he was aroused, and then
Speaker 2: he would have sex with them when he had already
Speaker 2: killed them. But that's the part that he said it
Speaker 2: was all blacked out until years later, you know, so
Speaker 2: I kind of fight with what was really going through.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think he really believed that, but I
Speaker 2: don't think it's necessarily true. So that's kind of where
Speaker 2: I fall in between, because I though in his mind
Speaker 2: it might have been what he thought happened, I think
Speaker 2: it was something else.
Speaker 3: Was there any indication that he courted or enjoyed or
Speaker 3: titillated at all by the notoriety that he had gained
Speaker 3: from this vampire killing strangler bill designation?
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't know. I don't know. He
Speaker 2: seemed to use it more of a sickness and more
Speaker 2: of you know, he was the model guy in prison
Speaker 2: for years and didn't cause any trouble and only escaped
Speaker 2: to try and do it again. So again, was that
Speaker 2: a sickness or was it a draw? You know, he
Speaker 2: escaped really with the intent I think to kill another woman.
Speaker 2: He did not try to escape, he didn't try to
Speaker 2: go anywhere. He had a card that he could have
Speaker 2: taken a plane or a trip. And this is back
Speaker 2: when they didn't you know, how hard were they checking
Speaker 2: when you got on planes?
Speaker 3: Mm?
Speaker 2: Hm? You know, he could have busted anywhere he could have.
Speaker 2: He could have done a lot of things. He didn't
Speaker 2: have that in mind at all. He wanted to dress up,
Speaker 2: look good, go out and drink and party with the girls.
Speaker 3: So he also with this last almost murder, it was
Speaker 3: the same modus operandi, and almost it's the same scenario.
Speaker 3: He let them off the hook the day before. He
Speaker 3: didn't force them or act disappointed, and just set up
Speaker 3: another date. He was patient in that regard, but charming
Speaker 3: for hours. They mean they spent hours they did, laughing
Speaker 3: and staying at lunch. So he was determined, but also
Speaker 3: very very very patient and what he wanted to do
Speaker 3: same he was.
Speaker 2: And you have to think that too, because that also
Speaker 2: kind of it kind of backs up his story of
Speaker 2: being He liked being around them, he enjoyed the conversation,
Speaker 2: would spend hours, and tried not to have sex with him.
Speaker 2: In his mind, he said he tried not to because
Speaker 2: by the time Calgary happened, he had remembered so he
Speaker 2: knew that if he would get sexual that it would
Speaker 2: end bad. So he's saying that he tried not to
Speaker 2: go that far. He would never make the move on
Speaker 2: the girl sexually. She would come on to him, so
Speaker 2: he was saying that. You know, it was sort of
Speaker 2: his way of kind of defending himself.
Speaker 3: But in that same sense, he had some idea of
Speaker 3: who what a good girl, wasn't a bad girl, it seemed,
Speaker 3: and again he always kept the high ground and let
Speaker 3: these other people in his mind do something that was
Speaker 3: out of the ordinary or not prudent enough.
Speaker 2: We'll say, oh, totally, I mean I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what I mean. I'm sort of in between. I
Speaker 2: don't know how to judge him because some of his
Speaker 2: actions look one way, but his words look the other,
Speaker 2: you know. And because we only have him left to
Speaker 2: tell you what I mean at the time, left to
Speaker 2: tell us what happened from his point of view, again,
Speaker 2: I have to say what comes from one side. We
Speaker 2: don't have any of the girls here to tell us
Speaker 2: what happened between them, you know, you know, the ones
Speaker 2: that were killed, So we don't know would he have
Speaker 2: killed this last one that he was with at the
Speaker 2: bar when he got arrested, would he have gone through
Speaker 2: with it? He just kept on having fun with them.
Speaker 2: You know, she was kind of had the intent of
Speaker 2: taking him home. Would she have taken him home and
Speaker 2: would he have actually killed her or would he have
Speaker 2: just avoided that, like he said, he wanted to avoid.
Speaker 2: You know, we don't have anybody else, you know, just
Speaker 2: to say, you know, and I'm not defending him, so
Speaker 2: no bad emails. I'm not I'm just trying to understand.
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to understand it. And again, it's one
Speaker 2: of those cases of a serial killer that gets put
Speaker 2: away and we don't really have any anybody that analyzed
Speaker 2: him professionally to give us an you know, any sort
Speaker 2: of you know, it's all after the fact that we
Speaker 2: have people throwing things in at us and I don't know,
Speaker 2: I heard a couple of different stories and I don't know,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't really know. They never got to
Speaker 2: interview him professionals like that to come out with a
Speaker 2: good assessment.
Speaker 3: You talk about changes in day passes, at least when
Speaker 3: it applies to convicted murders, or well maybe that's not
Speaker 3: what it applies to. Tell us what changes, any real
Speaker 3: changes they made after this, You would think that would
Speaker 3: be considered a major bungling.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the way they handled it was and
Speaker 2: you know, it's down to human flaws, like the guards
Speaker 2: and the way it was handled, but not necessarily the pass.
Speaker 2: It's kind of how the corrections have answered that, so
Speaker 2: they're saying that, no, it's not the system. It wasn't
Speaker 2: what we were doing. It was just the particular people
Speaker 2: doing it, the guards at the time that didn't do
Speaker 2: their job correctly. But the system of rehabilitation is a
Speaker 2: good one. So so some things have changed. It's not
Speaker 2: like it is and we're not but we're doing things
Speaker 2: to rehabilitate by having classes now, so we send people
Speaker 2: to classes to learn art rather than take them to
Speaker 2: a museum with a professional instructor. Will actually just send
Speaker 2: twenty people to an instruction or have an instructor in.
Speaker 2: So they sort of change the way they give these
Speaker 2: compassionate day passes to these prisoners rather than taking them
Speaker 2: on field trips as you would say, maybe you know,
Speaker 2: so it's kind of the way they've done it. And again,
Speaker 2: you know, in Canada, you don't hear about a lot
Speaker 2: of these things because it's not marketed the same way.
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have all these shows on and
Speaker 2: all these you know talking about this is what's going on.
Speaker 2: So a lot of times people don't realize you know,
Speaker 2: until they read a book or do something and they
Speaker 2: kind of go, wow, I didn't know that, you know,
Speaker 2: cause you know what it's like. You live in Canada,
Speaker 2: so you do have an idea of the system, so
Speaker 2: you could probably actually speak to that. Like there's a
Speaker 2: lot of things you find out probably with your show
Speaker 2: that you have no idea went on in Canada because
Speaker 2: it's not like there's the media that does that sort
Speaker 2: of thing.
Speaker 3: No, and it's it's there's we can't even go into
Speaker 3: how many of the reasons for the coverage that it
Speaker 3: seems normal crime coverage and interest in America seems almost
Speaker 3: the opposite in Canada. What I wanted to say, I
Speaker 3: wanted to thank god we can have artists art appreciation
Speaker 3: in prison for people with life sentences.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know.
Speaker 3: It's money well spent right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know that. That Actually what is what drew
Speaker 2: me to this case when r J was looking for
Speaker 2: others for the series was because it, like Russell Williams,
Speaker 2: it has a unique twist to it, like this about
Speaker 2: the justice system itself, not even just the crime. There's
Speaker 2: serial killers, but this was really unique that you know,
Speaker 2: it's another thing I didn't even know we did, you know,
Speaker 2: we're rehabilitating these people like that, you know, in that
Speaker 2: system too, like we're actually paying a professor is day's
Speaker 2: wage to take someone out like that is what really
Speaker 2: kind of threw me, just just.
Speaker 3: Just that twist to it, you know, Yeah, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 2: And I will say, of course, you know. And of
Speaker 2: course he did die in prison or in hospital because
Speaker 2: he had become sick and they took him to the hospital.
Speaker 2: He had skid cancer and he spent the last three
Speaker 2: months in the hospital where he died of cancer because
Speaker 2: it had gone too far so they couldn't save them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was in two thousand and six, right,
Speaker 3: so cosiderable amount of time. Yeah, it's a very interesting
Speaker 3: story too, because of the lack of I'm sure most
Speaker 3: Canadians wouldn't know of this story whatsoever, and of all
Speaker 3: the dynamics of a serial killer, a vampire serial killer
Speaker 3: from a big city Montreal, while category is of a
Speaker 3: big city two relatively and and for this story to
Speaker 3: not be known, I mean, I don't know what kind
Speaker 3: of particulars would interest the media first to be able
Speaker 3: to say, hey, there's a story that people might be
Speaker 3: interested in but regardless of the time, I think that
Speaker 3: still I just have to applaud you for bringing this
Speaker 3: story to light because I know that this is a
Speaker 3: an incredible story. That's and you don't have vampire killers
Speaker 3: as a rule. I mean, they're very rare, as much
Speaker 3: as they may be in the subject of fictional stories,
Speaker 3: it's in true crime circles. Still, the vampire killer, the
Speaker 3: person that's actually drinking blood and killing, is quite rare.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you have to also point out with him
Speaker 2: unlike let's say the American vampire killers as we know them.
Speaker 2: You know right down there, they were eating body parts
Speaker 2: as well, right, So it became this was different. He
Speaker 2: wasn't taking parts of the body and eating and going
Speaker 2: all out like that. He had a different way about him.
Speaker 2: And I have to wonder, you know, that's why a
Speaker 2: lot of these people, I wish we had someone that
Speaker 2: was a professional that actually got to interview him, you know,
Speaker 2: psychologist or something and could learn something.
Speaker 3: Well, again, it's it wouldn't be the first person that
Speaker 3: were to go into prison and try to get the truth.
Speaker 3: But as in my experience anyway, and again there's many
Speaker 3: people more experienced. Most of these guys, I don't know
Speaker 3: if you can trust the truth from them, because you
Speaker 3: can see it's a mix of self angerandizement and exaggeration.
Speaker 3: There's truth certainly in there. I mean, but where does
Speaker 3: the lie begin and how far does it extend? And
Speaker 3: are they downplaying or are they up playing what they're doing.
Speaker 3: So it's hard to say, and I think I think
Speaker 3: people would agree with that and that it's hard to
Speaker 3: say what exactly the truth is. However, we've seen extreme
Speaker 3: cases where again it may be over the top, they
Speaker 3: may be exaggerating, but there is truth in all of this,
Speaker 3: which is again hard for you to say either way,
Speaker 3: again because I understand the truth is hard to ferret
Speaker 3: out completely, but the truth is definitely in there.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's That's sort of why I
Speaker 2: say I'm kind of in between, because I think some
Speaker 2: of his actions fit what he said happened in his mind,
Speaker 2: but all of them I'm not sure, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: was it the girls that were coming on to him,
Speaker 2: like he said, and that's how he reacted. He lost control,
Speaker 2: then he lost his memory. I don't know, but a
Speaker 2: lot of the actions fit that. And it's not a defense,
Speaker 2: it just is what it is like, I'm not saying, oh,
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's why. I'm just saying that maybe
Speaker 2: some of what he said there's some truth to what
Speaker 2: he was trying to tell people about why he did thinks.
Speaker 3: Well, it seems again I wouldn't want to go on
Speaker 3: and analyze this for too long, but it seems that
Speaker 3: there's many reasons to downplay your responsibility in that he
Speaker 3: already admitted that he dearly didn't want to be known
Speaker 3: as a rapist, just for good relations in prison and otherwise.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if you can you can say
Speaker 3: that it isn't again convenient for every person to say, oh,
Speaker 3: blackout and then later I had some recollection, but not
Speaker 3: enough to stop, not enough to turn himself in. And
Speaker 3: so again, as much as they're trying to garner sympathy
Speaker 3: for themselves, this is as far as they go, because
Speaker 3: they also do. I think it's a mix of many things.
Speaker 3: Of course, I think when they are arrested sometimes they
Speaker 3: want to act again, how can you have remorse after
Speaker 3: you've done what some of these people have done. It
Speaker 3: would be a natural response, just as your lawyer instructs
Speaker 3: you at the sentencing day, to show some remorse. Do
Speaker 3: you have anything to say? What you think you're going
Speaker 3: to say? You're going to say. Most people are going
Speaker 3: to say, I'm sorry. So I think that this is
Speaker 3: there's some part of it, and it's very convenient to
Speaker 3: say you blacked out. That being said is a mental
Speaker 3: component to this person. Certainly a psychological component to these
Speaker 3: murders and rapes and strangulations. Obviously.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I just think it's it's dangerous to start, especially in Canada,
Speaker 3: as you know, to start saying, geez, he blacked out
Speaker 3: and he doesn't remember. That's a defense.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. I
Speaker 2: kind of can't. I didn't want to lay it on
Speaker 2: one or the others, so I just put it out there.
Speaker 2: This is what he said, This is his claim, and
Speaker 2: this is kind of what happened. Something's fit, But I
Speaker 2: don't think it all does. I think it's something that
Speaker 2: you know, maybe he believed some of it in his mind.
Speaker 2: Maybe this is what he believed, or maybe this is
Speaker 2: just what he was playing with people. Because someone with
Speaker 2: that much charisma and charm that even the cops were
Speaker 2: impressed with him, there's you know, it's hard to say
Speaker 2: what's real and what's not you know, it's just this
Speaker 2: whole gray area. But people loved him, you know, obviously
Speaker 2: they were very charmed with him. You know, he had
Speaker 2: the right combination of looks and personality and actions he must,
Speaker 2: you know, everybody said how well mannered he was. I
Speaker 2: don't know. It was just the right combination and he
Speaker 2: used that knowingly or not, I don't know, But certainly
Speaker 2: I don't think he should have been innocent. I don't
Speaker 2: think anything. He should have just been put away, period done.
Speaker 2: You know, that's just my opinion. But you know, I'm
Speaker 2: just the writer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to thank you Ellen for coming on
Speaker 3: and talking about But there's the story of Wayne Bowden,
Speaker 3: vampire rapist, serial killer for those people that might want
Speaker 3: to look at other work, like your other work about
Speaker 3: Russell Williams, Colonel Russell Williams above Suspicion. You have a
Speaker 3: Facebook page where a website tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about how people might contact your find out more about
Speaker 3: your work.
Speaker 2: Well, you can find me on Facebook, you know, Allen R. Warren.
Speaker 2: I also have an author page on Facebook, and then
Speaker 2: of course somethingweirdmedia dot com. It's a website that I'm
Speaker 2: part of and my show shows are on there plus
Speaker 2: the books, and that's probably the best, probably one of
Speaker 2: those three right there. And I'm on Twitter of course
Speaker 2: and Instagram and all those things as well.
Speaker 3: And you, along with Kevin, our host of House of Mystery,
Speaker 3: you creators of this fine true crime podcast, tell us
Speaker 3: a little bit about where they can find a House
Speaker 3: of Mystery.
Speaker 2: Well, we're on uh KK and W in Seattle. It's
Speaker 2: eleven fifty am and it runs Fridays four to five
Speaker 2: and Wednesdays from three to four of course, so you
Speaker 2: can go to KK and W and then look up
Speaker 2: House of Mystery or on something weird media site. And
Speaker 2: we have a YouTube page as well, just House of Mystery.
Speaker 3: Well, I wanna thank you again Allan for coming on
Speaker 3: and talking about Bloodthirst. Thank you very much and hope
Speaker 3: to talk to you again soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: Have a great evening you too, Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 3: good night.
Speaker 2: Thanks