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Speaker 1: And I just turned around and I call ass out

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of there.

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Speaker 2: I was done.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't deal with them. The hypocrisy of the cult

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is one of the things that turned me.

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Speaker 1: Away the quickest.

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Speaker 3: When I turned my head lights on, it turned and

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looked at us. And one of the things I remember

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the most where the eyes were going red. I see

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an orb of light. It is just circling these steps

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like it is waiting for me.

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Speaker 4: And he begins to tell them that he saw UFO.

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They're basically like, what are you talking about. That's seven

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foot up on a tree, peeking around it, and that's

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where I saw the top of the muzzle, noose and

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the eyes. As soon as I made eye contact with

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this thing, it don't like death.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to Tenfoil Tells. I'm your host, Brandon Wright.

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Tonight we're going to be joined by my guest, Darren.

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Darren is the host of The Cooper Vortex, a podcast

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that he does that dives into all of the information

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about dB Cooper, or the lack thereof for information and

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everything that happened with the incident back in nineteen seventy one.

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You're not familiar with the dB Cooper story, then we

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will definitely be diving into that here, but before we

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bring Darren on, If you've ever had an experience and

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you would like to be on an episode of Tenfoil Tells,

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there's a couple things you can do. You can either

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send an email to Tenfoil Tales podcast at gmail dot

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com or you can go to tenfoiltals dot com and

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go to the contact section. Either way it works for me,

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so just make sure to send a message and we

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will get something scheduled for a future episode. If you

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would like to help the podcast out, please continue to

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share it around. Word of mouth is the best way

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of helping the podcast crow. You can also leave a

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five star rating and review wherever you listen to podcast ad.

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Just make sure to click on the little star link

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podcast ads. Just click on that five star rating and

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it does help out the podcast. You can also help

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out by joining the Patreon. There is a free membership

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and a paid membership. The paid membership is only a

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dollar ninety nine a month. With the membership, you get

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early access to all of the episodes that I record,

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so up to two months early, they're all ad free.

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You also get access to Crinical Conspiracies and some of

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the other exclusive content only on the Patreon. For more

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information about that, please check the show notes and make

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sure to follow me around on all of the social media's.

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But I think now we're going to go ahead and

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bring Darren on and dive on into this dB Cooper investigation.

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It's been fifty three years, still no real leads, no

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conclusive evidence, So I'm definitely looking forward to talking with him.

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He's done a lot of research into this and I

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hope you guys enjoy the conversation. So seit back, relax

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and enjoy the show. Like think this time to welcome

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my guest night Darren. Thanks for coming on here and

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talking with me.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Would you like to let the audience know a little

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bit about yourself.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my name is Darren Schaffer. I'm the host of

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the Cooper Vortex podcast. I grew up in Woodland, Washington,

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which would have been the closest city to where dB

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Cooper's proposed drop zone was. It sort of was first

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exposed to that story watching Unsolved Mysteries as a child

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and just being excited that here's this local story and

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I know all the all the cities involved that they

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listed off. It was exciting and I was just sort

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of I thought dB Cooper was a cool thing. It

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was a very local story, not much interest in it.

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And then a bunch of different things in my life

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happened all at the same time that it sent me

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into the coup vortex, as they call it. And my

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wife bought me this book, Skyjack by Jeffrey Gray, and

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it sort of just sat on my bookshelf for a while,

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and I was traveling and brought it with me and

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I started to read this book, and I was like, man,

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I thought I knew about the DV. Cooper story, but

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there's just so much more to this that I don't know.

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And I got through that book and I just I

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was baffled by all the things that I didn't know

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in the case, and I was just amazed that we

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don't know who he is. And that book alluded to

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another book, Into the Blast by Robert Blevins, and Skyjack

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was a few years old when I picked it up,

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so I was like, well, that book has got to

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be out now, So I picked up Into The Blast

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by Robert Blevins, and after I read those two books,

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I was really confident that DV. Cooper was Kenny Christensen.

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And then I unfortunately decided to go onto this website

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that they were referencing in these books, the drop Zone,

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And once I got on there, I started reading and

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I was like, Wow, dB Cooper is not Kenny Christiansen,

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and there's so much more to this. And they were

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talking about this other book, D B. Cooper and the

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FBI by Bruce Smith, So I ordered that book and

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read that one, and I realized how much more there

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was to this. Even still, there was so much more

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to learn and so much farther to go into this.

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And now I'm at this point where I thought I

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thought it was the one guy who I was introduced to,

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Kenny Christiansen, And now I don't think Kenny Christiansen is

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dB Cooper. So where do I go from here? I'm

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totally obsessed with the case. At this point, I had

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just started this job where I work completely alone, so

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I listened to forty to sixty hours a week of

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talk radio and podcasts, and I'm hungry for G. B.

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Cooper content. So I punch into Apple podcasts. This is

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like twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen. I punched dB Cooper

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into Apple podcasts, and there was fifteen or twenty shows

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that had done one episode on dB Cooper. And I

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was like, hell, yeah, I'm gonna burn through all these

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I'm gonna listen to all This is gonna be fun.

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And I quickly discovered they were all exactly the same.

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It was two or three hosts. They basically read the

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Wikipedia page for the dB Cooper case. They would list

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a handful of suspects, give a very brief overview on them,

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and then at the end they would decide which suspect

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they liked the most, and the case was solved. But

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I was so deep into this the dB Cooper case

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by then that I was just so unsatisfied with that

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it got to the point where to burn through all

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those podcasts. I just started fast forwarding over their description

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of the hijacking because I felt like I knew it

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so much better than they did that I didn't care

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what they said about the hijacking. I would just tune

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in for their thoughts and theories on suspects and maybe

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who they thought it was. And so I was like,

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I need I want to hear long form interviews with

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the authors of these books. I want to know why

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they think it's the suspect and how they got to

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that conclusion and why they're even involved in the dB

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Cooper case at all. And so I just decided, all right,

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I'm going to create the show that I want to

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listen to. And so I reached out to a bunch

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of people like, hey, will you be on my show

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that doesn't exist yet, and all of them said, yes, absolutely,

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I would love to be involved in that project. So

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I called up my friend Russell Colbert and we started

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this podcast, The Cooper Vortex. Originally the plan was to

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do about twenty episodes, maybe do it for six months

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to a year as just kind of a fun side project,

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and that I'd be done because how much dB Cooper

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talk is there even?

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Speaker 3: Really?

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Speaker 4: And they called the Vortex because once you get sucked in,

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you can't escape, And that's absolutely true because six years later,

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I'm still doing the exact same show.

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Speaker 3: Do you still have a co host with you?

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Speaker 4: Russell is actually not my co host. He edits and

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produces the show. Okay, I'm hoping to one day get

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him on. He says, once I hit one hundred episodes,

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he'll do it. So I'm trying to meet that goal.

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But I guess but before before we get into anything else,

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I should probably start with who dbe?

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Speaker 3: Cooper was, Yeah, for anyone that's not familiar, that'd probably

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be the best way to go about it.

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Speaker 4: So November twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one, a man in

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a dark brown business suit in a black overcoat or

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trench coat walks into the Portland International Airport. He purchases

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a one way ticket to Seattle. The cost of that

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ticket with tax is twenty dollars. He pays in cash.

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The only identification you needed in nineteen seventy one to

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board a plane. The gate agent asked him his name.

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He gave his name as Cooper, Dan Cooper, and then

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the gate agent writes Dan Cooper on his ticket, that's

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the only identification you needed to board a plane in

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nineteen seventy one. He's wanted the last to board the plane.

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He boards via the aft stairs of the seven twenty seven.

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He sits in the back of the plane shortly before

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or I'm sorry. Shortly after takeoff. At two point fifty

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he hands a stewardess a note. She u, this is

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one of my favorite parts. She automatically assumes it just

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a creepy businessman trying to hit on her, so she

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puts the note in her purse without looking at it.

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Cooper notices this and gets her attention again and says,

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excuse me, miss, you might want to have a look

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at that note. I have a bomb. She sits next

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to him cracks open his briefcase. Inside his briefcase are

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nine red sticks, some wires, and a large lantern style battery.

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Your stereotypical briefcase bomb. He's now hijacking the plane. He

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wants two hundred thousand dollars and two sets of parachutes,

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two manes and two reserves, or two backs and two

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fronts to be ready by the time they land in Seattle.

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Once his demands are met, he will let the passengers

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off the plane. The airline agrees to his demands. The

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pilots inform the passengers that there is some mechanical issue

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on the aircraft and the flight is going to circle

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the airport and settle burn some fuel. None of the

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packengers aboard the plane knew the plane was being hijacked.

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Until they got off the plane in Seattle. The plane

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lands in Seattle, Cooper's parachutes and money are brought on board.

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He releases the passengers, and now he's got some new plans.

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He wants to be flown to Mexico City. But more

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important than where to fly, he instructs the pilots how

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to fly the plane. He wants the plane to fly

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no higher than ten thousand feet. He wants the plane

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to fly no faster than two hundred miles an hour.

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He wants the landing gear to remain deployed, the cabin

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to remain unpressurized. He wants the flaps set at fifteen degrees,

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and most importantly, he wants the plane to take off

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with the aft stairs. And if you aren't familiar what

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aft stairs are, early in commercial aviation, you had a

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handful of planes with an aft staircase, meaning a staircase

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that would come off the ass end of the plane,

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so that if that smaller airport didn't have a ramp

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truck or didn't have a gate, that the plane could

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pull right up to the passengers could board and exit

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the aircraft via those aft stairs. So, with those demands,

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the pilots are not even sure that the aircraft can

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fly with the aft stairs down nevertheless take off. So

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they call into air traffic Control and ask air Traffic

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Control they're probably flipping through manuals in different schematics of

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this aircraft and they have no idea. So they reach

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out to Boeing and call Boeing, Hey, can a seven

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twenty seven fly with the aft stairs down? And Boeing says, yes,

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We've tested that that plane can fly with the aft

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stairs down. Now, the pilots still disagree with the idea

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of taking off with the stairs down. They told Cooper

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was unsafe to do that with a plane full of fuel. Interestingly,

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Cooper disagrees with their assessment, but says, you know what,

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forget it will take off with the stairs up. I'll

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lower the stairs in the air the plane takes or

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before the plane takes off, the pilot's like, well, in

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this configuration you've asked for, we don't have enough fuel

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to make it to Mexico City. So they discuss a

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couple of refueling stops. They agree on a refueling stop

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in Reno, Nevada. The plane takes off from Seattle around

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seven forty five pm for Reno, Nevada. Cooper asks for

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one stewardess to remain on board to be a go

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between between him and the flight crew and the cockpit.

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And the last thing, Tina Mucklow, the lone stewardess aboard

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the aircraft, saw it was dB Cooper putting on his parachute,

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and he asked her to go into the cockpit. She

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was also scared of like being sucked out of the

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plane when the aft stairs were deployed, so he instructs

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her to go to the cockpit. The last thing she sees,

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like I said, is him putting his parachute on, and

242
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she commented it had looked like he had done that

243
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many times before. The plane lands in Reno, the aft

244
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stairs are down and Cooper is not on board. He

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took his briefcase bomb with him. He asked for his

246
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notes back, and the only thing he left on the

247
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plane was a black clip on tie. He has not

248
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been seen or heard from since now.

249
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Speaker 3: Back then, how much was two hundred, he says, two

250
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hundred thousand, and he was asking.

251
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Speaker 4: For He asked for and got two hundred thousand dollars,

252
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which would be about one point three million dollars today.

253
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Another interesting thing about that money is Sea First Bank

254
00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:51,399
in Seattle had two hundred and fifty thousand dollars stashed

255
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away for just such an emergency, whether it be a

256
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ransom or a hostage situation, or even if that bank

257
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was robbed. They had two hundred and fifty thousand dollars

258
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set aside where they knew and had recorded all of

259
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those serial numbers. So the bills he got were not marked.

260
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They weren't bad in any way. It was legal tender

261
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us currency, but they knew the serial numbers of all

262
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of those bills.

263
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Speaker 3: He had to have known a bit about flying, too,

264
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just because of the demands he had for the altitude,

265
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than the winning the stairs, basically hanging out and everything else.

266
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To me, it seems like for just some random person,

267
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he has a lot of information about how to go

268
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about things that the average person shouldn't know.

269
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Speaker 4: Forget about the average person, Brandon, he knew more about

270
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that plane than the pilots did. He knew that that

271
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plane had capabilities that the pilots didn't know that plane

272
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could do. And it's an interesting set of knowledge because

273
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he actually had to have that. Stewart is Tina Mucklow

274
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show him how to lower those aft stairs. So why

275
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is it that you have a guy who seemingly knew

276
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the exact flight configuration for the plane to be jumped

277
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from that it could be jumped, but he didn't know

278
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,600
himself how to lower that aft staircase.

279
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Speaker 3: Mm hm. The other thing I was thinking if he

280
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was most people don't ever. I don't know how they

281
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:32,879
do it back then, but like jumping out of an

282
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airplane with parachutes and everything else, like you would have

283
00:16:35,679 --> 00:16:37,799
to have some sort of experience. I would think, like

284
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if he's just risking it all on his first try,

285
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Like I don't know if I could get up there

286
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and just jump out of an airplane. So he's either

287
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,799
had some sort of experience with that or he just

288
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didn't care.

289
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Speaker 4: I totally agree with you. I've brought this up before.

290
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I'll give a wild example, like, you know, how much

291
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,960
experience do you have driving F one cars? I assume

292
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,919
it's none. No, So would you brandon plan a crime

293
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where your only escape is in an F one car? No,

294
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,920
you wouldn't because you don't even know how to drive that.

295
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,400
So would you plan a crime where your only escape

296
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,839
is a nighttime parachute jump into unknown terrain if you've never.

297
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:27,440
Speaker 3: Parachuted, especially never parachuting or even really knowing where you're.

298
00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:31,559
Speaker 4: At exactly, and who does that? Who would be willing

299
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to do a night jump into unknown terrain?

300
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, to me, the whole the whole thing I've always

301
00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:40,079
thought was very strange. That's why I wanted to talk

302
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,279
with you because even as a kid, I was fascinated

303
00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:47,720
by it because I remember, I think probably the same

304
00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:50,799
Unsolved Mysteries episodes or whatever. I remember like they were

305
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:52,839
always who is dB Cooper? And I've watched shows that

306
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,400
they tried to figure out who dB Cooper is, and

307
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,440
there is a lot of weird theories that are tossed

308
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,359
around there and everything else. And for me, it's like,

309
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,759
I don't know if it'll ever be one hundred percent,

310
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,480
like unless someone come out and could prove that they

311
00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:14,599
were dB Cooper. But at this point I don't see

312
00:18:14,599 --> 00:18:19,480
that happening. But it's like one of those mysteries and

313
00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:20,880
I don't want to say it's like one of the

314
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,319
greatest crime mysteries or whatever, but it kind of is

315
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,519
in the sense that like no one knows what happened

316
00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:30,880
to the guy who he is, what it was about

317
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,559
like the whole thing to me just is almost like

318
00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,960
the perfect crime. It's weird as that sounds.

319
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,559
Speaker 4: Well, it definitely seems that way. We're going on fifty

320
00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:43,119
three years will be uh a Cooper con This year

321
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,839
will be the fifty three year anniversary of this happening,

322
00:18:46,839 --> 00:18:49,039
So it pretty much seems like he got away with

323
00:18:49,079 --> 00:18:55,880
it at this point in time, and even a satisfactory

324
00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:00,400
could this case be solved. One of the one of

325
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,680
the things about this case that's so wild is we

326
00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:08,599
have a confession. We have a deathbed confession. And not

327
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,000
only do we have one deathbed confession, we have thirty

328
00:19:12,039 --> 00:19:16,160
six of them, and we have hundreds more other confessions.

329
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,720
So if you would compared this to like the Zodiac

330
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:23,920
or something unsolved like that, this is a weird one

331
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,119
in that we do have so many very serious confessions.

332
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:32,200
Duyne Weber made a deathbed confession to his wife. Kenny

333
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:37,079
Christiansen made sort of a half confession to his brother

334
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,720
Walter RecA Is. You can listen to his taped confession

335
00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:45,160
to his friend Carl Lauren that he didn't want released

336
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,160
until after he died. Wolfgang Gossip confessed to both of

337
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,279
his sons on their eighteenth birthday, and two different lawyers

338
00:19:53,319 --> 00:19:57,599
in two different states. I spoke to one of the

339
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,440
lead agents on the case in the two thousands, Larry Carr.

340
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,079
He was on My show, and one of the things

341
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,960
I thought was so wild about talking to him was

342
00:20:08,519 --> 00:20:11,079
he told me when he was a lead case agent,

343
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:16,119
this is thirty five years after the skyjacking. During his tenure,

344
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,519
a handful of people went into FBI offices to confess

345
00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:25,440
to this crime. Now, dB Cooper didn't hurt anyone. Physically

346
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,279
threatening people with the bomb is not a really nice

347
00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:33,519
thing to do, but no one was physically harmed. And

348
00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:36,400
you have him in the back of the plane in sunglasses,

349
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,200
drinking the bourbon and soda, with a hot young stewardess

350
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,559
sliding the cigarettes. It's a very James Bond thing. And

351
00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:47,440
confessing to this is cool. If me and you were

352
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,440
at a bar Brandon and I was like, hey, man,

353
00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:51,880
you know that dB Cooper thing that happened a few

354
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,799
years ago, that was me. Man, I'm so cool. Can

355
00:20:54,839 --> 00:20:58,880
you believe it? I get that confession one thousand percent.

356
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,000
I don't understand you going into an FBI office to

357
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,319
confess to a crime. You know you did not commit

358
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,519
that part. I don't get even the deathbed confessions. I

359
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:18,319
struggle to understand it. I mean, maybe you lived this

360
00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:21,960
life where you didn't think you had a great story,

361
00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:25,880
or you weren't successful, or you didn't accomplish what you

362
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,000
wanted to get done, so you want your name to

363
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,720
be attached with something cool. I guess I don't know,

364
00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:37,880
but I've talked to many, many people whose father or

365
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:43,559
grandfather or uncle confess to this crime or husband, and

366
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,519
those people spend the rest of their lives trying to

367
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,240
prove the confession of their loved one. Which is why

368
00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:55,559
one hundred percent I'm going to tell my kids some

369
00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:58,519
real wild shit on my deathbed, just so I know

370
00:21:58,599 --> 00:21:59,720
what they're going to be up to the rest of

371
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,240
their life.

372
00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 3: That's a that's an idea for me to pull off. Now,

373
00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:11,240
if someone were to confess and it's been so long ago,

374
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,400
can they still be charged for it as it passed

375
00:22:14,519 --> 00:22:17,720
the I forget what the term is, but I thought

376
00:22:17,839 --> 00:22:19,880
there were so many years before they could actually charge

377
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,759
someone for the crime. If it's already been so many

378
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:22,640
years past.

379
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 4: Great question. So there's a couple different charges involved. You have,

380
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,440
you know, pretty much like extortion and kidnapping and a

381
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,519
bunch of different charges. They ended up charging John Doe

382
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:42,200
with air piracy in lieu of a name, so to

383
00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:45,359
sort of get around the statute of limitations, which we

384
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,480
could argue on whether or not there would be a

385
00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:51,680
statute of limitations on this. But about seven years after

386
00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:56,279
the hijacking, the FBI charged John Doe with air piracy

387
00:22:56,319 --> 00:22:59,440
of flight three h five, so that if they ever

388
00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:04,359
did figure it out, he's already been charged. Which I've

389
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,759
tried to look that up and see how common that is,

390
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:12,000
and it's a pretty rare thing to do, and so

391
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,079
you have that. But I've also had a couple of

392
00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:20,839
different lawyers on the show, and dB Cooper smoked seven

393
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,200
cigarettes on that plane. I said the only thing he

394
00:23:24,279 --> 00:23:26,480
left behind was a black clip on tie, but that

395
00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:28,960
was a lie. It was two things, a black clip

396
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,279
on tie and seven cigarette butts. And so the FBI

397
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,200
collected those seven cigarette butts out of the ash tray

398
00:23:37,559 --> 00:23:40,160
and then they sent them into the forensic lab. And

399
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,519
the FBI files on the Cooper case are out now

400
00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:46,400
and you can read them. There's like hundreds of thousands

401
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,880
of files. So if you really want to read them.

402
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,400
They're all there for you. But lucky for me, I

403
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:55,640
know a bunch of people who are sifting through them,

404
00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:58,480
and you can read the FBI file on the cigarette butts.

405
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,920
They sent them into a lab and the messages, hey,

406
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:06,519
these are dB Cooper's cigarette butts. Examine them and see

407
00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:08,359
if you can get any fingerprints on them, and if

408
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,480
you can't, then just throw them away. So those cigarette butts,

409
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,839
which we could potentially pull DNA from today, were destroyed.

410
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,480
They also found a hair on the seat that he

411
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:25,400
was sitting in that they believe could be from him. Now,

412
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,400
it is an airplane and a bunch of people went

413
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,480
through there, so you can't be one hundred percent, but

414
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,480
they thought it could be dB Cooper's hair. So they

415
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,200
had this hair on a slide. And so you would think,

416
00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:39,759
now I can look back at the FBI files and

417
00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:43,240
see how they handled this, And you would think that, Hey,

418
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:46,039
I'm calling into the Seattle Field Office and I'm like, hey,

419
00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,319
I'm investigating this dB Cooper suspect, and I know you

420
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,039
have a slide of hair. I got some hair off

421
00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:55,519
my suspect. Do you want to compare it? You would

422
00:24:55,519 --> 00:24:59,319
think the Seattle Field Office would say, okay, mail me

423
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,359
your hair, but that's not how they did it. The

424
00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:06,119
Seattle office mailed the slide out to other places for

425
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,039
them to compare it, and at some point that hair

426
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,000
slide got lost. Also looking into that, because we could

427
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:21,640
identify them with DNA through that hair, but unfortunately the

428
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,279
glue that they used to affix the hair to the

429
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:28,680
slide in nineteen seventy one more than likely at this

430
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,640
point in time that glue has degraded any chance of

431
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,039
us getting DNA. Even if we found the slide.

432
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: I think, doesn't DNA for so many years, like it

433
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,160
starts to deteriorate anyways, after so many years, I believe so. Yeah,

434
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,200
I was thinking that tune you're talking about the cigarette buds, like, man,

435
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,680
if they had those, they could pull DNA. But I

436
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:50,440
was like, I don't know how long the DNA is

437
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:54,480
viable for after so many years. I don't know.

438
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 4: I think that they could get real, real close, even

439
00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:01,480
after fifty years. But the problem, especially with the hair

440
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:05,480
slide that may or may not exist anymore, is looking

441
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,119
into it, and then the glue that they used to

442
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,400
affix those slides back then over time would degrade the

443
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,319
DNA much faster than time itself.

444
00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:19,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, back then they weren't going to uh be able

445
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,400
to do DNA that that was just nothing they've ever

446
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,920
done before. So I understand it wasn't even an idea. Yeah,

447
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,039
so I understand why that wasn't like one of the

448
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:32,160
precautions or whatever. But to me, it's looking back at

449
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,079
it now, they're like, man, we had evidence that we

450
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,279
could have used, but back then it was no fingerprints,

451
00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:42,039
no point keeping it. It is weird though they kind

452
00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:43,839
of destroyed that they didn't try and keep them. But

453
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:44,880
I don't know.

454
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:47,039
Speaker 4: I don't know. I've thought about that too, and I

455
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:49,799
guess my logic behind it is, if I'm running an

456
00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:55,119
evidence locker, do I want cigarette butts sitting around? Probably not,

457
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,200
because even I mean, even if you put cigarette butts

458
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,759
in a plastic bag, it's gonna stink.

459
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:07,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the one thing that I'm I'm not a smoker,

460
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:09,599
but I do notice it a lot. I think it's

461
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,279
because I'm not one, so I do notice that smell.

462
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,839
So it's the one thing that I would agree with

463
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,839
that if you kept it and there, you'd smell it.

464
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,640
For some reason, my nose is very sensitive to cigarette smoke.

465
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,799
It's kind of strange book.

466
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: But also in nineteen seventy one, there's a good chance

467
00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:28,119
the guy running the evidence locker was smoking cigarettes.

468
00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 3: True. Back in those days, I felt like everyone could

469
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,680
smoke everywhere. It didn't matter what you did, and everyone

470
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:41,960
was walking around into restaurants, buildings. That was all un place.

471
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 4: Imagine being in a plane with eighty five people and

472
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,359
seventy of them are smoking.

473
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: I remember watching movies where people were smoking on airplanes.

474
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,880
They like smoking. It's still strange. They again different times,

475
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,160
but just from where I'm at today, Like, there's certain

476
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,960
places you can't go into, like my state, anything that

477
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,440
you have smoking in you have to be at least

478
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:10,960
twenty one to get in. There is considered a bar.

479
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,240
You can't smoke anywhere unless it's outside. But I actually

480
00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:17,440
think they made this Aside bars, everything else is smoke free.

481
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:19,920
I don't know how it is in other states, but

482
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,599
I just know here in Indiana that's how it is.

483
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, there's a handful of bars in some states

484
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,039
that still out smoking, but I mean most of the states,

485
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,279
especially west of the Mississippi, you can't even smoke in

486
00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:32,599
a bar.

487
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's weird, but Again, for me, I grew up

488
00:28:39,559 --> 00:28:41,200
in this area where we didn't have it, so to me,

489
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,960
it's not any different. But I do remember as a

490
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:50,240
kid people were smoking and burgering that they're little smoking sections.

491
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,440
But bar is the where the case goes and everything.

492
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 4: I know.

493
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: There's a lot of weird stuff that happened, and we

494
00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:03,440
talked to little bit about how there was beliefs that

495
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,599
the CIA may have been involved in some other things.

496
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,240
If you want to talk about a little bit about

497
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:09,559
some of that.

498
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, just you know Cooper, he only exists for

499
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,039
about five hours. He boards the plane at two point

500
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:23,000
fifty and then his proposed jump time is just a

501
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,440
little bit after eight. And there is no story before that,

502
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:29,640
and there is no story after that. So in this case,

503
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,720
when you are able to find a suspect, you're sort

504
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,039
of filling in all these details. But if you want

505
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,839
a good CIA connection and suspect, I get into some

506
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,640
pretty deep conspiracy theory stuff here. So there's a gentleman

507
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,440
named Najeeb Hallibe, and off the top of my head,

508
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,440
I'm gonna mess up his uh, his positions, but he

509
00:29:54,599 --> 00:29:58,200
was like head of the FAA and president of United Airlines,

510
00:29:58,279 --> 00:30:04,279
and a very very big d in commercial aviation. November

511
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:08,160
twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one, the day of the hijacking,

512
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,759
he's meeting with Richard Nixon to discuss airline safety. Now,

513
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:18,559
that is an incredible coincidence if I've ever heard one.

514
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,640
And then to tie in Nixon again, E Howard Hunt,

515
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,200
who is one of Nixon's plumbers who you may remember

516
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,119
from the Watergate trials. He's sitting there with sunglasses on. Now,

517
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:39,359
Cooper famously don sunglasses during his hijacking, and E Howard

518
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,759
Hunt always sort of imagined himself this James Bond character.

519
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:47,440
He wrote spy novels. You know, he got real close

520
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,400
to being a James Bond type character as one of

521
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,839
Nixon's plumbers. And so he's a guy that would have

522
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,440
had the ability to plan something like this and more

523
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,440
than likely would have had the ability to execute something

524
00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:08,880
like this. Now, does he do this with approval from

525
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,319
Nixon's CIA, some sort of a shady government thing, or

526
00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:17,920
does he do it? Does he go rogue and do

527
00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:21,440
it himself, knowing that if he got caught, he could

528
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,640
say he was doing it for the benefit of airline security,

529
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,799
which I don't know how true, either one of those are,

530
00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:33,240
but he's the right age. He sort of fits the

531
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,599
physical description. I really really love that we have an

532
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,279
example of him wearing sunglasses and doors, which Cooper did

533
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:48,240
to hide his identity. If you want another crazy CIA

534
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,480
tied suspect, one of the better suspects in this case

535
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,079
is a gentleman by the name of Ted Braiden. And

536
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:02,200
Ted Braden, at like six teen years old, uses like

537
00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:05,240
a fake ID so he can sign up for the

538
00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:09,400
military and go serve in World War two. Continues his

539
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,480
military career as just like this crazy do all badass.

540
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,920
He's in Vietnam on this team called macv SAG, which

541
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,319
is just like this secret special ops badass force. And

542
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:30,519
while on that, he goes a wall and is discovered

543
00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:35,400
working as a mercenary in the Congo and he's arrested

544
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,480
and sent back to Fort Dix where he's going to

545
00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:42,599
stand trial for a wall and desertion and it's not

546
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:46,160
going to be awesome. And now I spoke to one

547
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,400
of the guards at Fort Dix that observed Ted Braden

548
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,559
there and he said the first time he walked by

549
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:59,440
Ted Braiden sell Ted Braden was in full uniform with

550
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:03,559
a belt buckle and poulish shoes. He was smoking a

551
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:08,720
wood tipped cigar and watching a television and he told me, Darren,

552
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,440
none of those things I just mentioned were allowed at all.

553
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:15,839
So I knew right away whatever is going on with

554
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,039
the guy in the cell, it's well above my pay grade.

555
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,920
And when the day came for Braiden to stand trial,

556
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,359
instead of standing trial, he was released from the prison

557
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:33,519
with a note that said there wasn't enough staff to

558
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,680
do the trial that day, which is it doesn't make

559
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,359
any sense and obviously it's a lie. Ted Braden had

560
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,200
a very close friend named Jack Synglob who worked for

561
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,839
the CIA, who could have been looking out for him. Also,

562
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,799
Ted Braiden would would have done some things for the

563
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:59,960
government that potentially they didn't want those to get out.

564
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,079
But even arguing against that, if they already have him

565
00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:07,319
in custody, what's the risk of that getting out. Wouldn't

566
00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:10,440
it just be easier for him to be locked in

567
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,400
a military prison for the rest of his life or

568
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,639
they could just kill him, So why does he get out? Also,

569
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,239
I have a couple of friends in the Stebe Cooper

570
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,079
community that have let's just say more access to background

571
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:31,519
checks than the average person. And if you look up

572
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:37,000
Ted Braiden, there's no information. And I'm not talking about

573
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:40,440
like there isn't much, there's nothing when there should be

574
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,920
all of these records that every human being in the

575
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,480
United States has. And again I'm not talking about that

576
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:51,559
you could just google someone and pull up records. These

577
00:34:51,559 --> 00:34:54,440
are systems that you pay for that have limited access

578
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:58,519
where you can get records for things, and there's nothing

579
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:01,960
on Ted Braiden. Drew Beeson good friend of mine. He

580
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:07,400
wrote this great book on Ted Braden, the Paratrooper of Fortune.

581
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:10,840
In talking to family and friends and just poring over

582
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,840
this guy Ted Braiden's life, he found this great story

583
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,840
where Ted Braiden gets arrested for duy in his seventies

584
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,519
and he had no license, played on the car, no registration,

585
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:29,639
no insurance, no license, no identification, and refused to identify

586
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:34,039
himself to the police officer. That's pretty weird for a

587
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:38,119
guy in his seventies who already has a storied, shady past.

588
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:47,159
Speaker 3: I was gonna ask after the whole incident, did they

589
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,840
change anything far as like requirements for airlines, like for

590
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,079
people to get on there for passengers.

591
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,599
Speaker 4: Well, there was a huge debate. Like I said to

592
00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:00,280
Jeeb Halliby was meeting with Nixon about airport security day

593
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,639
of the hijacking. This wasn't the first airline hijacking by

594
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,639
any means. There was a lot going on at that time,

595
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,000
but none of those hijackings were people jumping out of

596
00:36:11,039 --> 00:36:15,760
the airplane. They were almost all of them politically motivated,

597
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,679
take me to Cuba, that kind of a thing. And

598
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,239
so this was a novel crime. The one thing that

599
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,400
we can completely attribute as a security change by dB

600
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:33,280
Cooper was I'm not sure if it was Boeing, but

601
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:40,079
one of the airplane manufacturers develop what they nicknamed the

602
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:44,079
Cooper vane. And what that would do is when the

603
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:47,400
plane was flying, there would be enough wind against this

604
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,119
little flap or a wind vane, and it would push

605
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,360
that to the side and lock that aft staircase, so

606
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,239
then the staircase could not be lowered or even lifted

607
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,840
up when the plane was in motion. But security was

608
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,000
already a big deal at the time. The problem was

609
00:37:07,559 --> 00:37:13,079
everyone knew we needed airport security, but no one wanted

610
00:37:13,079 --> 00:37:16,280
to be the one to do it. The airport was

611
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,880
saying that the government should be responsible for the security

612
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,199
at airports. The government was saying that the airlines should

613
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,760
be responsible for their own security, and the airlines were

614
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,360
saying the airport should be in charge of security. So

615
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,719
they all knew that it needed to be done, but

616
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,039
they were all waiting for someone else to do it.

617
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,400
I wish I could tell you that Cooper was the

618
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,679
one that changed all that, but it was a slow

619
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,639
process over years before we had metal detectors and drug

620
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:53,400
dogs and airports and training on visual screenings and who

621
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,719
to look out for, and then we didn't see the

622
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,760
security we deal with today until after nine to eleven.

623
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I know nine to eleven changed a lot

624
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,519
of things, but I wasn't sure how it used to

625
00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:09,840
be before that. I've never been on a plane up

626
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,880
until the early two thousands, so I wasn't exactly sure

627
00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:19,119
what kind of protocols came into place after the whole

628
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:22,480
dB Cooper thing. If the CIA is involved and is

629
00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:27,039
politically agendaed or something like that, I could see them

630
00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:32,719
doing something to cause the effect of what they're wanting,

631
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,519
like pushing that narrative.

632
00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:38,199
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, it wasn't even until years after

633
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,239
GB Cooper where you had the bare minimum of metal

634
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:48,239
detectors and somebody needs to see your identification.

635
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: Which is strange in today's concepts to think about that.

636
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,199
You could just ord an airplane and they didn't have

637
00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:55,960
to have any sort of information about you.

638
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 4: There's a really good book about the airline industry and

639
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,480
sort of this skyjacking craze of the late sixties early

640
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:08,639
seventies called The Skies Belong to Us by Brendan Kerner,

641
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,519
And one of my favorite parts about that book is

642
00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:16,039
he talks about how easy it was to get on

643
00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:19,639
a plane. Back then. There were planes where you could

644
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:23,719
go to the airport, walk to the plane, board the

645
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,360
plane with no ticket, and then the stewardess would walk

646
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,159
down the aisle in the air to check your ticket,

647
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:33,320
and if you didn't have a ticket, she would say,

648
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,239
all right, Brandon, you're flying to Cleveland today. That'll be

649
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,360
forty seven dollars and you paid in the air.

650
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: Weird times, wild times. Yeah, I could see we're back

651
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,559
in those days. If people did commit like some kind

652
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:54,239
of a crime, it'd be easy to get away, you

653
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,239
would think, just because they could go and just tell

654
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,639
us someone that they're whoever they want to be, and

655
00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:02,960
then they just they're off and they're gone.

656
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're trying to hunt this guy down. We have

657
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,719
no photos of him, we have no videos of him.

658
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:14,840
We don't have an audio recording of him. We we

659
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,119
don't have his real name.

660
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 3: They don't even know exactly where he jumped from, do they.

661
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,119
They didn't have any like, did anyone actually see him

662
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:26,320
leave the plane and to kind of get an idea

663
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,079
of what parts that he actually jumped from.

664
00:40:29,639 --> 00:40:32,599
Speaker 4: No one saw him leave the plane. They had too

665
00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:36,960
I'm gonna call him F one oh six is that's

666
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:42,440
probably wildly wrong. But they had these two planes I

667
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,960
believe that were from the Air National Guard that followed

668
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,199
that that seven twenty seven, to see if they could

669
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:55,079
see Cooper jump from the plane or maybe even worst

670
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:57,840
case scenario, if Cooper was going to blow that bomb,

671
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,079
maybe maybe they would do something else. But because it

672
00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:05,760
was night and because Cooper got them to fly that

673
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,679
plane at about two hundred miles an hour, two hundred

674
00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:11,000
miles an hour was just below the stall speed of

675
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,000
those chase planes, so they were speeding up and slowing

676
00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:18,679
down and making turns to just kind of stay behind

677
00:41:18,679 --> 00:41:22,199
the plane. So they never even really had a chance

678
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,039
to see a body drop out the ass end of

679
00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:29,960
that plane at night from a distance, and Tina Mucklow,

680
00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:32,960
he had her go up into the cab or into

681
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,360
the cockpit. I'm sorry, but the idea of where Cooper landed,

682
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:45,920
we don't get that until thirty six hours after he

683
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,840
jumps from the plane. So during that flight to Reno,

684
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:54,400
the cockpit is in constant communication with air traffic control,

685
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,079
and sitting beside air traffic control are the police and

686
00:41:58,119 --> 00:42:02,239
the FBI. They're also tracking this plane with what's called

687
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,960
the Sage radar system, which was brand new at the time,

688
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,199
and we had installed or the Air Force had installed

689
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,760
that as this fancy radar system, so they could see

690
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,800
if there were any Russians coming to get us. So

691
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,679
they used that to track this plane as well. And

692
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,039
so in between eight eleven and eight fourteen, depending on

693
00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:28,440
if you think it's the oscillations or the pressure bump,

694
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:33,679
which that goes real deep, but the pilots basically experienced

695
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,320
the aircraft moving a little bit enough that required correction

696
00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:44,239
in their controls, and they also experienced what they described

697
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,920
as a pressure bump, like they felt the pressure increase

698
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,480
in the cabin for a second. And so They theorized

699
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:54,840
that that was from when dB Cooper was standing on

700
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,800
those backstairs and jumps, and then after he jumps, the

701
00:43:00,119 --> 00:43:03,440
end pushes that back staircase up. It sort of bounces

702
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:08,079
back into place and causes that pressure bump. Now, to

703
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:12,639
test that theory, they took the exact same aircraft, not

704
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,440
the same make and model, the exact one that dB

705
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:19,000
Cooper hijacked, and they flew it out over the Pacific

706
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,159
Ocean and pushed a two hundred pounds sled off to

707
00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:26,320
the aft stairs to see if it would recreate the

708
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,519
pressure bump that the pilots felt, and they believed that

709
00:43:29,599 --> 00:43:32,760
it did, so then they use that as a marker

710
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,320
to win Cooper jumps. Now, the plane is traveling at

711
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,320
two hundred miles an hour and you have some eastbound

712
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,360
wind at the time. You also have to think when

713
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,119
Cooper jumped, does he open his shoot right away or

714
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:48,440
did he free fall for a little bit, Because if

715
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,360
he opens his shoot right away, then he's going to

716
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,239
drift much farther east. If he free falls for a bit,

717
00:43:54,679 --> 00:44:00,000
it's going to shorten that drift considerably. So they basically

718
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:02,800
made this map of this is where Cooper's proposed drop

719
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,760
zone might be. They did a real brief search of

720
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,480
that area at that time, and in that area it's

721
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:14,159
probably just starting to snow. You'll probably get sustained snow

722
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,039
on the ground for a little while. There's parts of

723
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:21,079
that that are some seriously thick brush, So with snow,

724
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:23,440
it's not really something you're going to be able to

725
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:26,880
march through the woods with. So there were a couple

726
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,119
of quick searches, but there wasn't a real big ground

727
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:35,639
search of his proposed drop zone until four or five

728
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,159
months later, I want to say it was March or April.

729
00:44:39,599 --> 00:44:42,599
By the time they had they had like three hundred

730
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:46,000
people stomped through the brush to see if they could

731
00:44:46,039 --> 00:44:50,840
find anything. It was National Guard, County sheriffs, volunteers, there

732
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:55,480
were boy scouts that were part of that group. The

733
00:44:55,519 --> 00:45:01,519
next day after the skyjacking, they flew the It wasn't

734
00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:05,079
the next day, but real close. So the next morning

735
00:45:05,119 --> 00:45:08,960
they had small aircraft and other chase planes fly that

736
00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:11,199
route from Seattle to Reno to see if we could

737
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,599
find you a parachute stuck in a tree or obviously

738
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:17,800
this is where he landed, see if you could see anything.

739
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,280
And they also had the SR seventy one blackbird fly

740
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,559
that flight path and use its fancy camera to document

741
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:30,800
that whole thing. It's the Pacific Northwest. So the first

742
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,239
time they do that, there was too much cloud cover

743
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:36,159
and it made it basically useless. So they had to

744
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:39,480
do it a second time, which neither one of those

745
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,599
produced any results.

746
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: What was the weather like the night that he'd jump.

747
00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:46,119
Was it clear or is the cloud ear?

748
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 4: It was cloudy, typical Pacific north weather, Pacific Northwest weather.

749
00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:54,519
It would have been overcast with a light rain about

750
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:56,559
forty five degrees on the ground.

751
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm thinking like it'd be weird in the sense

752
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:06,800
of everyone's talking about it for so long, But what

753
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,960
if you didn't survive the jump, but you still They

754
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,880
never found the body. They never found a shoe. But like,

755
00:46:13,039 --> 00:46:15,679
if a guy jumps from a plane at dark, it's cloudy,

756
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,519
it's a little windy, could be drizzling. What if something

757
00:46:20,559 --> 00:46:23,280
goes wrong the shoot doesn't he gets stuck in tree.

758
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,960
There's so many things that could have went wrong in

759
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,679
the whole situation, and he may have died on before

760
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:34,079
he ever made it to the ground. So it's it's

761
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:37,119
one of those things. Is like it's it's still I've

762
00:46:37,199 --> 00:46:39,480
questioned it too. I was like, how did the guy

763
00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:42,400
survive at all? Especially like, even if you land there

764
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,400
in the middle of nowhere, you have to track out

765
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,480
of there in order to get to where you're going,

766
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:51,960
like you still have to go through wilderness.

767
00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 4: I will say there is no evidence that he survived

768
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:02,039
the jump. Also, there is no evidence that he died

769
00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:06,840
in the jump, And people say a lack of evidence

770
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,960
is not evidence of something else. In this case, I'm

771
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:15,840
kind of leaning that other way. I think the lack

772
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,039
of evidence that he died in the jump is sort

773
00:47:18,079 --> 00:47:21,320
of evidence that he survived. So you have a couple

774
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,000
things to consider about this. There's this great book by

775
00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:29,199
Martin Androde Finding dB Cooper, Chasing the Last Lead, and

776
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,719
a lot of that book is about the survivability of

777
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,239
that jump. Is it doable, what are the odds? How

778
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,079
can it be done? The parachute that he used, And

779
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:42,960
one of my favorite parts about that is he compares

780
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:49,559
World War II ejections over Europe and their survivability. So

781
00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:53,039
you're talking about planes with mechanical failure maybe, but most

782
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:57,440
likely planes that have been shot and are damaged to

783
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,599
beyond the point of saving it, and now the crew

784
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,119
or the pilot or whoever we got a bail, and

785
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,679
he found something like a ninety seven percent survival rate

786
00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:14,880
for those men, and the vast majority of them would

787
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:20,960
have had one practice jump or only classroom training on

788
00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:24,119
how to use a parachute, and they're jumping out in

789
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,639
the worst conditions. Cooper's conditions are not awesome, but the

790
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:32,760
planes not spiraling out of control to the ground. He

791
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,559
also found that if you dig in those numbers a

792
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:37,880
little deeper, it could be as much as two percent

793
00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:41,719
were dead before they hit the ground anyway, so the

794
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,880
parachute helping them survive doesn't matter at all, or if

795
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:52,400
they were a no pull. So parachutes work, they work,

796
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,119
they will get you to the ground safely. So if

797
00:48:56,159 --> 00:48:59,800
Cooper doesn't survive his jump, there are two ways this happens.

798
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:05,119
One is he pulls his ripcord, the parachute deploys or

799
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,440
half deploys. Maybe some failure he ends up in a

800
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,000
tree or a super hard impact on the ground, breaks

801
00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:18,480
his legs, or even dies on impact. If he pulled

802
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,920
that ripcord and it deployed at all, he has found

803
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,000
as soon as the sun comes up there's no doubt

804
00:49:26,039 --> 00:49:32,559
about that. That did not happen. The other way Cooper

805
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:34,960
dies in the jump from my point of view, is

806
00:49:35,159 --> 00:49:38,920
a no pull where he just doesn't pull the ripcord.

807
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,079
And Cooper's jump is not ideal, but it's not it's

808
00:49:45,159 --> 00:49:47,920
not bad enough where he wouldn't have pulled the ripcord.

809
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,960
And back to my point earlier about you driving F

810
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:54,360
one cars, Are you gonna plan this when you don't

811
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,599
even know how to pull a ripcord? No, So, at

812
00:49:59,599 --> 00:50:02,559
the very least, I think he has some jump experience,

813
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:08,000
which would mean he pulls the ripcord. There is People

814
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:12,280
like to talk about him landing in water. What I

815
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,320
would have to say to that is, what are the

816
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,400
odds he lands in water. Let's draw a line from

817
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,840
Seattle to Reno. How much water is in between Seattle

818
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,320
and Reno, and then let's compare that to how much

819
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,440
land is in between Seattle and Reno, And those are

820
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,920
the odds that he lands in water. Now, if he

821
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,800
pulls his ripcord and the parachute deploys and he lands

822
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,239
in water again, he's found really quickly. You can look

823
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:45,360
at a handful of other parachute landing scenarios. There is

824
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,480
a scenario where maybe he gets tangled up in the

825
00:50:47,559 --> 00:50:51,159
chute and the whole thing goes down, But even in

826
00:50:51,199 --> 00:50:54,960
that scenario, he's sort of gonna emerge towards the top

827
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,360
of the water again, in that tangled bundle of human

828
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:03,159
and parachute would be found, which it has not been

829
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:11,840
so myself and I would say ninety nine percent of

830
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,480
the other people that have spent hundreds of hours researching

831
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:18,079
this case and thinking about it would be on the

832
00:51:18,119 --> 00:51:22,920
side that he survived the jump. To defend my point

833
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,000
of him surviving the jump, Cooper spawned a handful of copycats.

834
00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:33,440
Cooper's copycats ranged in parachuting ability, from green berets who

835
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:38,119
parachuted for the military and then were recreational skydivers to

836
00:51:38,199 --> 00:51:40,320
a gentleman that didn't know how to use a parachute

837
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,920
and asked for instructions. All of those people were successfully

838
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,960
able to use their parachute and get to the ground,

839
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,280
even Mart McNally. That's an interesting one because the pilots

840
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:57,239
were like this guy, he's a fool. He doesn't know

841
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,719
the difference between two hundred miles an hour and four

842
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,039
h miles an hour. From the sky, let's kill him

843
00:52:03,039 --> 00:52:06,199
with speed. So the pilots pushed the plane up to

844
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,960
well over three hundred miles an hour and McNally jumps

845
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,559
and is knocked unconscious by the wind, regains consciousness in

846
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:16,400
the air, pulls the rip cord, and gets to the ground.

847
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:20,679
He loses the money and is arrested shortly after that,

848
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,760
but he still gets to the ground.

849
00:52:28,159 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 3: My thing with all of that, the speed and everything, like,

850
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,360
even at two hundred miles an hour, to me, seems

851
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,599
ridiculously fast. Obviously in an airplane, it's not as fast

852
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:45,360
as you would think, but at two hundred miles an

853
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:49,639
hour and you jumped from the plane, I feel like

854
00:52:49,679 --> 00:52:51,920
he had to have some sort of experience. Like you said,

855
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,119
you don't just do that just to do it. You

856
00:52:55,199 --> 00:52:58,599
have to have some sort of familiarity with it. So

857
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:00,559
it kind of makes me think maybe he'd have some

858
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:03,400
sort of training, so he could have been military. What

859
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,840
did the other passengers say, Did anyone else like give

860
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,559
a description of him, of like age, wives, of where

861
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:11,679
he could how old he could have possibly have been,

862
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,039
other than just like the stewardess.

863
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,679
Speaker 4: There is one passenger that takes a good look at

864
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,239
him and it's for a hilarious reason. So, like I

865
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,960
mentioned the stewardess that sat next to him, Tina Mucklow,

866
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,800
she was a beautiful young woman. She's twenty two years

867
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:35,519
old and just a total smoke show. And so, like

868
00:53:35,559 --> 00:53:38,599
I mentioned earlier, Cooper's one of the last to board

869
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,960
via the aft staircase and sits in the back. So

870
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:43,679
if I told you I sat in the back of

871
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,199
the plane, you're picturing me walking past every row of

872
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,440
people to sit in the back. In this plane, they

873
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,000
boarded from the back, so he didn't walk past anyone,

874
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,199
He just sat right down in the back row. Across

875
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,719
the aisle from him was a college student heading home

876
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:08,000
for Thanksgiving named Bill Mitchell. And Bill Mitchell saw this

877
00:54:08,119 --> 00:54:14,400
smoke show stewardess and his thought was, why is that

878
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,760
is a quote from him, I've spoken to him. Why

879
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,039
is that geeky old guy getting all the attention from her?

880
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:26,320
Why not me? Like, why isn't she talking to me?

881
00:54:27,519 --> 00:54:30,400
And I just I love that line of thinking because

882
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,679
I could picture myself as a twenty two year old

883
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:35,559
or a twenty year old guy like thinking the exact

884
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:39,039
same thing. Why is she talking to that geeky old guy,

885
00:54:40,679 --> 00:54:43,000
and he's really the only guy that got a good

886
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,639
look Tina Mucklow. She sits next to him for about

887
00:54:45,639 --> 00:54:49,760
three hours. She lit his cigarettes for him, they had

888
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,199
some conversation. Not a lot of people got a good look.

889
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:59,360
But the age that Cooper's penda is mid to late forties.

890
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,400
The descriptions from a couple other passengers, which I'm not

891
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,239
even super confident in. It's one of those things where

892
00:55:07,119 --> 00:55:08,559
you know, let's say you and I are at the

893
00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:12,719
bar having a drink, and then the police run in

894
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,440
and arrest this guy and run out, and then they

895
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,599
ask us to give a description of that guy. We

896
00:55:17,679 --> 00:55:21,000
didn't pay attention to him, we weren't looking at him.

897
00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:23,599
But now because they're interested, now both of us have

898
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:26,440
something to say. Oh like, oh yeah, I remember he

899
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:28,960
was wearing this jean jacket, blah blah blah. And some

900
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,519
of those details might not even be accurate, but you

901
00:55:31,559 --> 00:55:35,400
and I both want to say something to the police,

902
00:55:35,519 --> 00:55:37,159
and I think there's a little bit of that going on.

903
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,880
But he's the youngest description of him I want to

904
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,559
say is like thirty five, and the oldest is fifty five.

905
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:49,199
But it's generally believed mid to late forties. And that's

906
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,119
something that I think about a lot. In this case,

907
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:56,199
if I just told you, hey, you won't believe this. Brandon.

908
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,519
There was this hijacking that happened yesterday and he ended

909
00:55:58,559 --> 00:56:00,440
up jumping out of the plane and it was wild.

910
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:05,559
Guess how old this guy was. You'd probably say twenty three,

911
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:11,679
twenty four. You wouldn't say forty seven, because by the

912
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,719
time you're forty seven, your life's kind of already in place,

913
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,440
and more than likely you can't afford to go to jail.

914
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,360
You don't want to go to jail. You're not committing

915
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,679
these types of crazy crimes. And also, you know, like

916
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,639
I mentioned, the passengers didn't know the plane was being hijacked.

917
00:56:31,079 --> 00:56:36,000
Cooper was in complete control of the situation and he

918
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,280
was calm, cool, and collected the entire time. Tina mucklow

919
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,880
is in a press conference immediately after the hijacking and

920
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:50,679
reno and comments that he was polite, he was never unkind.

921
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:54,039
He got annoyed at one point when refueling the plane

922
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:57,880
took too long, but he was never cruel or unfriendly

923
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:04,239
to me. Those are her exaus act words. So, who

924
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:09,039
would be this guy that has this crazy knowledge about

925
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:15,760
the aircraft. Who's older, who couldn't control this situation like this,

926
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:19,639
someone who could plan and execute this, Like I mentioned,

927
00:57:19,639 --> 00:57:22,360
one of the copycats was a Green Beret. That's a

928
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,199
guy who has been involved in the planning and execution

929
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,559
of quite a few operations. And his hijacking is very

930
00:57:30,559 --> 00:57:34,199
well planned. I think he even made some improvements on Cooper's,

931
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,159
but his execution is very poor. He drew attention to

932
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:44,159
himself right away. He made goofy mistakes. People noticed that

933
00:57:44,239 --> 00:57:47,400
he was wearing makeup, People noticed that he was wearing

934
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,199
a wig, people noticed that he was acting funny. Tina

935
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,239
Mucklow sits next to Cooper for three hours and says

936
00:57:55,239 --> 00:57:57,880
he wasn't wearing any makeup or any sort of disguise.

937
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:03,599
He puts sunglasses on, and when people try to tell me, oh,

938
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,880
my suspect he had he put huddy behind his ears

939
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,400
to hold him back, or he was wearing makeup, or

940
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:18,199
he put Hoddy on his chin to remove his dimpled chin. Bullshit,

941
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,440
absolute bullshit. A twenty two year old woman has worn makeup?

942
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,800
How many times by this point in her life? Hundreds

943
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:33,199
of times? How many times have I worn makeup? I

944
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:38,800
don't know twenty and nineteen of those were Halloween. I

945
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:43,360
don't know anything about makeup, But would a twenty two

946
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,159
year old woman who is wearing makeup and puts makeup

947
00:58:46,199 --> 00:58:49,360
on and buys makeup, would she notice that the guy

948
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:55,000
sitting directly next to her has makeup on? Absolutely and

949
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:56,159
she says no makeup.

950
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:01,599
Speaker 3: Seems strange to me. That and just in general, like

951
00:59:01,639 --> 00:59:04,519
the copycat thing, I don't understand why people would. I

952
00:59:04,519 --> 00:59:06,559
guess because he got away, they all think they could

953
00:59:06,599 --> 00:59:08,880
do that. But again, it goes back to what I

954
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,199
said earlier, like it's almost like the perfect crime because

955
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:16,519
there's nothing. He didn't exist and he's never existed since

956
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:18,320
he was only would you what do you say? It

957
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:19,239
was five hours?

958
00:59:19,239 --> 00:59:20,599
Speaker 4: Only existed for five hours.

959
00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:27,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's crazy to me because again, two hundred thousand

960
00:59:27,239 --> 00:59:30,719
dollars today it's it's good money, but it's not the

961
00:59:30,719 --> 00:59:33,199
same equivalent of what it was back then. But even

962
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:37,719
a million dollars today, if I heard someone did all

963
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,599
this for a million dollars, it does almost doesn't seem

964
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:44,039
worth it, you know what I mean, Like in today's standards,

965
00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:45,880
like a million dollars, Yeah, it's a million dollars but

966
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,119
like going through the trouble of hijacking a plane, which

967
00:59:49,159 --> 00:59:53,159
today is almost impossible to kind of do, especially the

968
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:58,239
way he did it, but the risk and everything else

969
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,039
for such a minimal amount of game, having to survive

970
01:00:02,119 --> 01:00:06,639
the jump, having to somehow make it out of the wilderness,

971
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,000
and to get back to civilization and be undetective for

972
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:13,920
the rest of your life. Like the whole thing to

973
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,960
me is like I said, it is always fascinating to

974
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,480
me in the sense of it's just strange of how

975
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,800
there's no trace of this guy ever and then never

976
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:24,400
again exactly.

977
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,519
Speaker 4: It's what's so baffling about this. I've used this analogy before,

978
01:00:28,599 --> 01:00:32,760
but the dB Cooper case is like the most interesting

979
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,760
and exciting book I've ever read. But somebody ripped out

980
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,400
the first four chapters and the last five chapters, and

981
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:46,760
now I'm just desperately searching for those beginning an end

982
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:47,719
to this story.

983
01:00:48,199 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 3: I've read some stuff and I don't know. I go

984
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,920
down rabbit holes. I read the dB Cooper didn't even exist.

985
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:01,119
The whole thing was like made up, which I don't

986
01:01:01,159 --> 01:01:04,320
see all these people being involved in I'm making up story,

987
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,679
but that we are ten Foil tells here, so we

988
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,760
got to cover the out there theories.

989
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 4: But Brandon, are you trying to piss me off?

990
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:14,639
Speaker 3: No?

991
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 4: But okay, I have to address this. There are two

992
01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:26,239
theories that if you're new to the case, you will

993
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,400
have one of these two theories come to your mind.

994
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,320
I'm not exactly sure why that is, but it is

995
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:40,280
always the case. Those two theories are dB Cooper never

996
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,280
existed and the flight crew was either in on it

997
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,639
or completely cooked him up. The other theory is that

998
01:01:50,119 --> 01:01:53,079
dB Cooper never jumped from the plane. He hit on

999
01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:58,519
the plane, and then magically, when the all the law

1000
01:01:58,599 --> 01:02:02,440
enforcement walked away turned their back, he casually walks off

1001
01:02:02,519 --> 01:02:07,639
the plane. I'll address that first one first. So the

1002
01:02:07,679 --> 01:02:12,119
idea that Cooper doesn't exist is just not true. He

1003
01:02:12,199 --> 01:02:14,760
was seen by the gate agent, he was seen by

1004
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,320
the passenger Bill Mitchell. I'm excluding the flight crew that

1005
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,440
saw him. He was seen by a couple of other

1006
01:02:20,559 --> 01:02:23,840
passengers on that plane. He was seen by people in

1007
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,400
the airport. They observed him standing looking out the window.

1008
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:31,000
Now at an airport, that's not unusual. Lots of people

1009
01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:33,719
stand by the window and look at planes, look at

1010
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,679
the weather. But I mean, obviously he's sort of doing

1011
01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:39,760
that so that nobody gets a good look at his face.

1012
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,679
If this is well planned, as I think it is,

1013
01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:48,480
so Cooper existed. Now it's a possibility. I guess that

1014
01:02:49,519 --> 01:02:52,239
Cooper is a friend of one of the flight crew,

1015
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,719
or he's in on it with the flight crew. I

1016
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,079
have spoken to many, many people that worked for the

1017
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:08,239
airlines in the sixties and seventies, stewardesses, highlots, baggage handlers, everyone,

1018
01:03:09,079 --> 01:03:14,440
and especially the pilots and stewardess's the flight crew. That

1019
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:18,400
was a very glamorous job. That was a desirable job.

1020
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:20,800
It was a job that paid well, It was a

1021
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,920
job that had prestige. It was a job where you

1022
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,320
could be a twenty two year old woman and travel

1023
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:32,840
the world in a glamorous way. And everyone I've talked

1024
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,000
to that worked for the airlines in the sixties and

1025
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,800
seventies says the same thing. They loved their job and

1026
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,960
it was fun and it was glamorous. So now we're

1027
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,679
going to take depending on how many people in the

1028
01:03:47,679 --> 01:03:51,440
flight crew could be involved anywhere between let's say, at

1029
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:55,320
a minimum four at most seven are going to be

1030
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,719
involved in this. Now, if you know anything about flight crews,

1031
01:03:58,719 --> 01:04:01,480
there's a good possibility that that crew didn't know they

1032
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,280
were working together until that morning or maybe even earlier

1033
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,039
that week. And then even then, crews change a little bit.

1034
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,880
So the idea that you're going to plan this with

1035
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,880
a flight crew that may or may not be working

1036
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:16,559
together doesn't work. And now you're going to whack up

1037
01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:22,840
two hundred thousand dollars five ways, seven ways, and not

1038
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:27,079
only risk your career but your liberty to do this.

1039
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,960
It doesn't make any sense. And also, there is zero

1040
01:04:33,039 --> 01:04:37,480
evidence that I've seen, and I've I'm deep in this

1041
01:04:38,519 --> 01:04:41,639
to support the idea that any of the flight crew

1042
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,880
was in on this at all. Doesn't make sense. There's

1043
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,440
no evidence for it, and logically doesn't make sense. The

1044
01:04:49,519 --> 01:04:52,000
second theory that people come to that he didn't jump.

1045
01:04:54,599 --> 01:04:57,639
If you've ever been on an airplane, you know they're

1046
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:01,800
using every inch of that aircraft. If there was an

1047
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,559
extra space that they could fit a body in, they

1048
01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:08,159
would put a seat there and charge you for it.

1049
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:14,199
There is no secret cabinet that a man can fit inside. Also,

1050
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:18,119
when the plane lands at Reno, the FBI did not

1051
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,280
believe that Cooper was going to jump from that plane,

1052
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:25,039
so they were ready on the ground in Reno. One

1053
01:05:25,079 --> 01:05:27,840
of the flight crew opens that back door and hollers

1054
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:32,039
out if Cooper's there, doesn't receive an answer, walks to

1055
01:05:32,079 --> 01:05:35,320
the back, sees that Cooper's not there, walks out the

1056
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:38,800
aft stairs, and then immediately the plane is boarded by

1057
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:44,079
law enforcement and the plane is searched with dogs. One

1058
01:05:44,079 --> 01:05:47,199
of the other hilarious things about this skyjacking is that

1059
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,760
back to Cooper being polite when he was on the

1060
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:58,760
ground in Seattle. Somehow, I'm not sure how he knew

1061
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,039
that that was going to be the last stop for

1062
01:06:01,119 --> 01:06:04,199
that flight crew. I want to say they went from

1063
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,760
like Missoula to Spokane to Portland to Seattle was their

1064
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,639
shift that day. Don't quote me on that exactly, but

1065
01:06:11,719 --> 01:06:16,480
I am positive of the last two steps. And so

1066
01:06:16,559 --> 01:06:19,559
when they land in Seattle, Cooper asks, as part of

1067
01:06:19,599 --> 01:06:22,679
his demands for meals for the flight crew to be

1068
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:27,199
brought on board, so he cared enough about them that

1069
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,480
he didn't want them to be hungry even but when

1070
01:06:30,519 --> 01:06:33,320
the plane is searched with dogs, the flight crew did

1071
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,679
not eat those meals. The dogs did.

1072
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:39,599
Speaker 3: I don't know where, Like I said, the whole aspect

1073
01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:42,039
of saying he didn't exist, like where they're saying they

1074
01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:43,800
were involved in it or anything like that. It was

1075
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:45,840
more or less just saying that they didn't believe that DV.

1076
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:47,119
Cooper was a real person.

1077
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, And I'm just I'm giving you a little

1078
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,800
bit of shift for it, But it is, it is

1079
01:06:53,079 --> 01:06:57,920
very popular. I've heard that hundreds of times, and I

1080
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:02,760
think it truly is like you watch one thing on

1081
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:07,159
Cooper and you're like, well, okay, they didn't figure it out,

1082
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:11,880
but what if it's this? And I understand thinking that

1083
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,519
because I've been in this so long where I'm like, well,

1084
01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:16,639
what if it's this, or what if it's this? But

1085
01:07:16,719 --> 01:07:22,960
then you realize, like that ground has been treadover dozens

1086
01:07:23,119 --> 01:07:27,880
hundred thousands of times. It's really tough in this now

1087
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:33,440
to come up with new and novel ideas because we

1088
01:07:33,559 --> 01:07:38,280
have so little to go on that we've been floating

1089
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,199
crazy ideas now for fifty three years.

1090
01:07:43,119 --> 01:07:46,599
Speaker 3: It kind of goes back into even what I do

1091
01:07:46,679 --> 01:07:51,239
here when I talk to people that have even we'll

1092
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,320
just throw it into the completely off topic. But like

1093
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:59,519
people have been debating the Patterson Gimlin Bigfoot film, which

1094
01:07:59,519 --> 01:08:02,119
I'm sure you probably are familiar with it because everyone knows,

1095
01:08:02,159 --> 01:08:04,760
like the story of Bigfoot, like the guys were out

1096
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,360
filming in the nineteen sixties and that's the infamous Bigfoot footage.

1097
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,719
Everyone today still debates if that was a man in

1098
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:14,880
a suit or if it was real, when.

1099
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,199
Speaker 4: Even the name of the footage suggests it wasn't.

1100
01:08:18,119 --> 01:08:21,359
Speaker 3: And to me, it's like, you're never going to know

1101
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:27,680
because the guy died and people come out and claim

1102
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:29,960
they've made a suit, and everyone that's made the suit

1103
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:34,039
claims they're in that suit. The suit looks nothing like

1104
01:08:34,079 --> 01:08:39,840
the video they've had. People from Hollywood suit makers claim

1105
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,239
that that was not a possibility to make a suit

1106
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:46,279
like that back in the nineteen sixties, but it sure

1107
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:49,600
as hell looks like a man in a suit. So

1108
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:54,680
it's like back in those days the technology they had,

1109
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,279
like these people were going out to find said thing

1110
01:08:58,399 --> 01:09:01,199
and they found said thing. To me, it sounds very fishy,

1111
01:09:02,199 --> 01:09:05,800
like two cowboys went out there and found a mysterious

1112
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,960
monkey man. Okay, But at the same time, it's like,

1113
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,439
but dB Cooper, this guy doesn't have any record of

1114
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:18,800
him anything, shows up on a plane five hours later,

1115
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,319
he's gone, never no trace of him again. And now

1116
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,479
the people are saying, well, he didn't exist. It was

1117
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,439
all a big fake thing. And it all goes back

1118
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:31,560
to the same type of the mindset of because people

1119
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,800
don't have evidence to prove it one way or the other,

1120
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:35,399
then they have to start making things up.

1121
01:09:37,319 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 4: Would you like me to connect Bigfoot to dB Cooper

1122
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:40,119
for you?

1123
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:42,119
Speaker 3: If you can, I would love to hear it.

1124
01:09:43,039 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 4: Well, they're both Pacific Northwest, they're both in the right area.

1125
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,840
The area dB Cooper jumps from is an absolutely an

1126
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:52,159
area you could see Bigfoot. I believe there is a

1127
01:09:52,199 --> 01:09:59,880
Bigfoot museum in that drop zone. But there is a

1128
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:04,359
I'm not even sure what genre movie. There's a movie

1129
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:10,600
called Bigfoot Versus dB Cooper, and it is very light

1130
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,119
on Bigfoot content, and it is very light on dB Cooper,

1131
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:20,079
but it is full of homo erotic shots of shirtless

1132
01:10:20,119 --> 01:10:24,439
guys working out. If you've never seen it, I would

1133
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:28,600
highly recommend it. But it doesn't make a lot of sense.

1134
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:34,600
It's mostly just shirtless guys working out. It's apparently this

1135
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:38,760
one director makes these movies where the storyline of the

1136
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:40,960
movie has nothing to do with what the movie actually is.

1137
01:10:41,039 --> 01:10:44,520
So it's like Bigfoot Versus dB Cooper and the next

1138
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:50,399
one could be Space Reptiles Invade Earth, but neither one

1139
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,880
is about what the title is. It's just shots of hot, young,

1140
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:55,079
shirtless guys.

1141
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 3: That's a very weird marketing ploy, but I guess if

1142
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:03,000
it works. Now, I bring up the big Foot thing

1143
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,920
because you mentioned it too. It's literally that happened in

1144
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,960
the same somewhat region, like it's not exactly the same spot,

1145
01:11:10,039 --> 01:11:13,479
but it all happened up in that region of north

1146
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,159
like the North Pacific, and the timeframe is fairly close.

1147
01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:24,760
I believe the one was nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight

1148
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,079
sixty nine, somewhere around there in Dbrisa is seventy one.

1149
01:11:28,279 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 4: I think Patterson Gimlin's Northern California.

1150
01:11:31,039 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was Northern California. And I've been on the

1151
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,119
fence with that one since i've been a child, Like

1152
01:11:40,039 --> 01:11:43,319
I always I wanted to believe. But everyone's like, oh,

1153
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:47,199
it's just a man in a suit. Today's technology. They've

1154
01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:50,479
enhanced it and they claim, oh, you can see muscles moving.

1155
01:11:51,239 --> 01:11:53,920
They've got four K resolution on Oh, it has breast,

1156
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:58,640
so it's actually a female. This is what I found strange.

1157
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:02,880
Back in the nineteen sixties, if two cowboys are going

1158
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,680
to make up some story about filming something, the fact

1159
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:08,880
that they made it female is a very clever thing.

1160
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:12,039
Like I don't know if a lot of people ever

1161
01:12:12,039 --> 01:12:13,920
think about in that aspect, but like when you see

1162
01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:16,000
suits made, you don't really ever think of them as

1163
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,920
being male or female. But they had enough gumption, I

1164
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:22,920
guess to make it a female that way. In the

1165
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:25,800
next fifty something years, when technology can enhance the video

1166
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,560
that you can actually see that it had boobs, it's

1167
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:31,159
now there.

1168
01:12:33,119 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe they knew there was going to be a

1169
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,880
really really desperate pornographic market for that too.

1170
01:12:39,159 --> 01:12:44,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure they're actually sadly probably is.

1171
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:51,239
Speaker 4: There's I know, there's a series of like bigfoot erotica

1172
01:12:51,319 --> 01:12:52,760
books for women.

1173
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 3: That would explain the recent trend of people like women

1174
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:02,159
and bears in the woods. Don't I don't don't. I

1175
01:13:02,159 --> 01:13:05,079
don't fully understand that either. I just keep saying a

1176
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:07,039
lot of people, a lot of women, saying they'd rather

1177
01:13:07,079 --> 01:13:08,520
be out in the worlds with the bear than a man.

1178
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,840
It was like, okay, well whatever, I don't I don't

1179
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:17,279
quite understand it myself, but hey teach their own. But

1180
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:19,800
now far as getting back with dB Cooper and everything.

1181
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,279
Try and wrap this one up. If you had to

1182
01:13:23,359 --> 01:13:28,520
pinpoint one direction, one person, whatever, Who do you honestly

1183
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,840
think about all the suspects that you've looked into, who

1184
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,600
do you think the one that would be the most logical.

1185
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:40,359
Speaker 4: Most logical. There's probably three suspects. We talked about Ted

1186
01:13:40,399 --> 01:13:44,039
Braden m H. I think it's a fantastic suspect. There's

1187
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:48,920
a numerous suspect with a JFK assassination connection. It's not

1188
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:51,880
even a connection if you're deep in JFK. I'm sure

1189
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:56,520
you've heard the name Lauren Hall or Skip Hall directly

1190
01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,479
involved and was part of those public hearings, or may

1191
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:02,640
not have even been one of the people to pull

1192
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:08,399
a trigger in the JFK assassination. But man, is he

1193
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:12,760
a good dB Cooper suspect as well? The other one

1194
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,399
I really like. I go back and forth on this

1195
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:22,039
a little bit, but Wolfgang Gossip, who he confessed to

1196
01:14:22,079 --> 01:14:26,399
both of his sons on their eighteenth birthday and confessed

1197
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,840
to two different lawyers in two different states. And I

1198
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:35,399
interviewed one of his sons, Greg and I sought Greg out.

1199
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:39,560
Greg didn't come to me, and when I reached out

1200
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,079
to him. He was like, yeah, I think I'd be

1201
01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:45,279
willing to do that, but I don't know you. So

1202
01:14:45,399 --> 01:14:48,439
I would like to have dinner first, because I drove

1203
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:51,840
out to where he was to do that episode, and

1204
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,840
I really don't like doing that because on my show,

1205
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:58,159
I want us to talk like for the first time,

1206
01:14:58,279 --> 01:15:01,880
and so I'm honestly surprised by your answer, and I

1207
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,039
want to know this. I want to know that. I

1208
01:15:04,079 --> 01:15:06,079
don't want to do that thing where I ask you

1209
01:15:06,119 --> 01:15:09,520
the question and I already know the answer. I really

1210
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:13,279
don't enjoy that that much. But because I was desperate

1211
01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:15,239
to talk to this guy Greg, I was like, yeah,

1212
01:15:15,239 --> 01:15:18,319
we can go to dinner first, that's no problem. And

1213
01:15:18,399 --> 01:15:22,239
so we go to dinner. And what I got from

1214
01:15:22,279 --> 01:15:25,960
that was he just wanted to know that I wasn't

1215
01:15:26,119 --> 01:15:31,199
going to manipulate his answers. He wanted to know from

1216
01:15:31,239 --> 01:15:33,920
me that I didn't have like this agenda that I

1217
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:38,119
was trying to put him in this place so he

1218
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:41,840
could participate in my solve of the case or anything.

1219
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:46,319
I really just wanted to know what he had to say.

1220
01:15:46,359 --> 01:15:49,840
And we became real friendly, real quick, and hung out

1221
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,199
and had a good time and then we actually went

1222
01:15:52,239 --> 01:15:56,920
to his house, I did that interview, and I just

1223
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:03,520
found him so believable because he also he's not going

1224
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:07,239
around pitching this story. He has his own life, he

1225
01:16:07,319 --> 01:16:09,880
has his own income. He's not like looking to get

1226
01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:14,960
rich off dB Cooper. He's his own man. And he

1227
01:16:15,039 --> 01:16:17,079
was very quick to point out to me that his

1228
01:16:17,199 --> 01:16:22,439
father was not a good father, not great at all.

1229
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:27,119
He told me some really just some sad stuff. Not

1230
01:16:27,119 --> 01:16:30,600
not really really terrible as far as like what bad

1231
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:35,079
dads can do, but just like he wasn't a good father.

1232
01:16:37,079 --> 01:16:39,760
And so to have this guy who's not even is

1233
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:43,920
a big fan of his own father. And he told

1234
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:48,800
me he's not even sure himself if he believes that

1235
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:52,239
his dad was Dbe Cooper, but he likes it when

1236
01:16:52,279 --> 01:16:55,479
guys like me look into it because he would like

1237
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:57,840
to see it solved. He's not going to be the

1238
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:00,399
one to do it, but he wants to know if

1239
01:17:00,399 --> 01:17:03,520
his dad was or wasn't Dbi Cooper. And he told me,

1240
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,159
if I found out tomorrow one hundred percent that my

1241
01:17:06,279 --> 01:17:09,760
dad was Dbie Cooper, I would be like, Okay, at

1242
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:11,680
least he was telling the truth about that, and then

1243
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,720
he would move on with his life or the other

1244
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:18,319
way around. He finds out one hundred percent your dad

1245
01:17:18,399 --> 01:17:21,039
was not Dbie Cooper, and he'd be like, Okay, well

1246
01:17:21,039 --> 01:17:23,319
that was just another thing he lied about, and he

1247
01:17:23,319 --> 01:17:26,680
would move on with his life. If you look up

1248
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:31,079
Wolfgang Gossip, there's a really interesting video you can pull

1249
01:17:31,199 --> 01:17:33,920
up on YouTube right now if you just type in

1250
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:38,399
Wolfgang Gossip for he's on the news in Seattle and

1251
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:41,039
not Seattle, I believe it's salt Lake. I'm sorry. He's

1252
01:17:41,079 --> 01:17:45,800
on the local news in Salt Lake for performing an exorcism.

1253
01:17:46,399 --> 01:17:50,439
He also became like a paranormal radio talk show host.

1254
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:51,920
Have you ever heard of Clyde Lewis.

1255
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:54,560
Speaker 3: Yes, I have so.

1256
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:58,600
Speaker 4: Clyde Lewis views Wolfgang Gossip as a mentor.

1257
01:18:00,119 --> 01:18:00,279
Speaker 5: HM.

1258
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:04,720
Speaker 4: So next time you talk to Clyde Lewis, ask him

1259
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:05,840
about Wolfgang Gossip.

1260
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,399
Speaker 3: I have not spoken to Clyde, and he is actually

1261
01:18:09,399 --> 01:18:12,479
someone that I've contemplated on reaching out to, but I

1262
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:16,000
know he's got so much going on. I'm not at

1263
01:18:16,079 --> 01:18:19,560
his level, so I don't thank you to reach back

1264
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:20,000
out to me.

1265
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:24,159
Speaker 4: You know, I hung out with Clyde Lewis at Cooper

1266
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:28,199
Kahn in I think it was twenty nineteen, could have

1267
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:32,920
been twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen. A cool guy, an

1268
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:38,159
interesting guy. He's very intense. He sort of looks you

1269
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:41,399
in the eyes, has opens his eyes real wide, and

1270
01:18:42,079 --> 01:18:45,399
has a big, prominent voice, and you've heard his voice

1271
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:50,960
on the radio. A cool, fun guy. I've tried to

1272
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,920
get him on my show. I've tried to get on

1273
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,800
his show in person. He's always like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1274
01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,640
let's do it, and then I just never get a

1275
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,000
follow up or anything. Obviously, he's a busy guy. He's

1276
01:19:03,039 --> 01:19:03,760
a popular guy.

1277
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 3: But that is how fight.

1278
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:07,119
Speaker 4: If you're listening, hit me up.

1279
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:11,359
Speaker 3: That is how a lot of the big I don't

1280
01:19:11,359 --> 01:19:14,920
want to say big time, but like the larger fan

1281
01:19:15,039 --> 01:19:19,279
based things are, the people that are in charge of

1282
01:19:19,279 --> 01:19:23,119
those typically are too busy to come on smaller activities,

1283
01:19:23,159 --> 01:19:25,279
which I get it. I'm busy a lot on my

1284
01:19:25,359 --> 01:19:28,479
own stuff, and I'm nowhere near as big as any

1285
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:34,760
of those people. But you mentioned Cooper Fest. Would you

1286
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:37,399
like to let the audience know when that is coming up?

1287
01:19:38,760 --> 01:19:42,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, November fifteenth or the seventeenth at the Seattle Museum

1288
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,439
of Flight, which is probably one of the best aviation

1289
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,359
museums in the United States, if not the best thanks

1290
01:19:48,359 --> 01:19:53,560
to its proximity to Boeing. Dbcooper Events dot Com. If

1291
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,039
you are familiar with the dB Cooper case at all,

1292
01:19:56,079 --> 01:19:57,960
there's going to be a bunch of names you're familiar

1293
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:02,920
with authors. I'll be MC that event. Come see us,

1294
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:07,000
Come check it out. Dbcooper Events dot Com. Also, if

1295
01:20:07,039 --> 01:20:10,920
you enjoy listening to podcasts, check my podcast out, The

1296
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,920
Cooper Vortex. Anywhere you get your podcasts.

1297
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:17,239
Speaker 3: I'll make sure to include that in the show notes

1298
01:20:17,239 --> 01:20:19,239
for anyone listening. So just go in there and you

1299
01:20:19,239 --> 01:20:21,119
need to click on and I'll take you right to it.

1300
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:24,560
I think we can wrap this one up. I just

1301
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,880
want to say thank you to Darren. Appreciate you coming

1302
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:30,279
on here and talk with me tonight. This has always

1303
01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:32,439
been something that I found interesting to you as a kid.

1304
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:36,680
Like we probably saw the same Unsolved Mysteries episode that

1305
01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:38,399
got me interested in it.

1306
01:20:39,359 --> 01:20:43,359
Speaker 4: Oh a million percent was Unsolved Mysteries, and then Leonard

1307
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:47,039
Nimoy did that in Search of m HM that featured

1308
01:20:47,119 --> 01:20:49,439
dB Cooper as well, and that was basically the only

1309
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:55,239
dB Cooper content maybe until the two thousands. Whenever, when

1310
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:57,119
without a Paddle came out.

1311
01:20:58,399 --> 01:21:00,600
Speaker 3: I remember that movie. Actually I have that movie. It's

1312
01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:03,600
been so long since I've watched I actually saw something

1313
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:08,600
posted online about it that it's been twenty it's been

1314
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:12,439
out for twenty years now. I think that's alright, and

1315
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:17,319
I get like registered in my memories. I was like,

1316
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:19,279
I have that movie, like I got it when it

1317
01:21:19,319 --> 01:21:20,880
came out. It was like down on my basement with

1318
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:23,840
all the other DVDs because anymore, like everyone got DVDs

1319
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:25,920
and now we got Blu rays, so we don't watch DVDs.

1320
01:21:26,920 --> 01:21:30,319
But I kind of forgot that that had something to

1321
01:21:30,399 --> 01:21:31,279
do with dB Cooper.

1322
01:21:32,399 --> 01:21:34,560
Speaker 4: The whole adventure is them going to find him.

1323
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 3: They want to find the dB Cooper and they Yeah,

1324
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:40,159
like I said, I haven't watched that movie years now,

1325
01:21:40,159 --> 01:21:45,920
i'mn'a have to go watch it. But anyways, again, thanks

1326
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,560
to Darren. Make sure to check out the Cooper Vortex,

1327
01:21:51,359 --> 01:21:54,159
and thanks for listening. But we will find you on

1328
01:21:54,199 --> 01:21:55,520
the next one. So good night.

1329
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:57,479
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on.

1330
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 3: Yep, not a problem, and that's the show everyone. I

1331
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:08,680
really hope you guys enjoyed the conversations. If you would

1332
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,039
like to be a guest on tenfoil Tels. Remember to

1333
01:22:11,079 --> 01:22:13,680
send an email to Tenfoil Tales Podcast at gmail dot

1334
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,239
com or go to the contact section of tenfoiltal dot com.

1335
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:19,319
Just get your message to me. We'll get some schedule

1336
01:22:19,359 --> 01:22:22,359
for a future episode. And just remember the truth lies,

1337
01:22:22,399 --> 01:22:25,000
and the stories we share, the connections we make. Stay

1338
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,720
curiously open minded. Thank you all for joining us on

1339
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,960
this journey, and until next time, keep questioning, keep seeking,

1340
01:22:31,079 --> 01:22:33,800
and keep exploring the unknown. Good night everyone seen on.

1341
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:38,159
Speaker 2: Sounds in the headphones. Yeah, it's turn to rock. Got

1342
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:40,720
a story about a crypty creature. Let's take a walk,

1343
01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:46,119
thigs Foot tug Man. They're out there in the talk,

1344
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:48,359
but the truth is out.

1345
01:22:48,279 --> 01:22:50,199
Speaker 5: There likeingly as fuck.

1346
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:52,119
Speaker 2: Us.

1347
01:22:52,199 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 5: Both signings got the whole.

1348
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 2: Worldsome conspiracies fons, like a story in the book.

1349
01:23:01,359 --> 01:23:06,359
Speaker 5: Control trying to keep us fine. We're all gonna use

1350
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:11,000
the whole mind in history.

1351
01:23:11,239 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 2: They don't want us to know the secrets they hide

1352
01:23:15,840 --> 01:23:20,239
since they want show so they don't society.

1353
01:23:21,079 --> 01:23:27,199
Speaker 1: They keep us in chase, but in Talma's time to

1354
01:23:27,239 --> 01:23:44,520
break the reins.

1355
01:23:48,279 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 5: Control trying to keep us fine. But I'm before gonna

1356
01:23:53,079 --> 01:23:59,079
use a mind in history. They don't want us to

1357
01:23:59,279 --> 01:24:03,720
know the secrets they hide since they will.

1358
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:09,760
Speaker 1: Show THEMDAL Society, thank us and Chase.

1359
01:24:12,359 --> 01:24:15,039
Speaker 5: The sand in talkic sound to break the reins

1360
01:24:18,039 --> 01:24:18,079
Speaker 4: H