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<v Speaker 4>You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking

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<v Speaker 4>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 4>written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK every

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<v Speaker 4>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 4>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 4>host journalist and author.

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<v Speaker 5>Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Butcher of Hanover focuses on the

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<v Speaker 5>serial killer of at least twenty seven young men and

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<v Speaker 5>boys in Germany in the post World War One era.

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<v Speaker 5>At the center of this murder case where Fritz Harmon

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<v Speaker 5>and Hans Grott, who were lovers while committing these murders.

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<v Speaker 5>It wasn't until the skulls and bones start washing ashore

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<v Speaker 5>from the Leon River in Hanover that Germany realized they

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<v Speaker 5>had a cold blooded serial killer in their country. As

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<v Speaker 5>you read the exploration of this case in this book,

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<v Speaker 5>ask yourself, did Harmon murder each victim to keep his

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<v Speaker 5>lover Hans Granz to stay with him? Did Granz decide

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<v Speaker 5>who it was that was to be murdered? The evidence

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<v Speaker 5>on this case will keep you on the edge of

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<v Speaker 5>your seat trying to determine who was really behind these

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<v Speaker 5>gruesome murders. The book they were featuring this evening is

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<v Speaker 5>Butcher of Hanover Fritz Harmon, with my special guest, journalist,

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<v Speaker 5>author and host of House of Mystery, Alan R. Warren.

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<v Speaker 5>Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much

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<v Speaker 5>for this interview. Alan R. Warren.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you for having me at the pleasure.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for joining us once again, and

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<v Speaker 5>again you've picked an incredible subject to be able to

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<v Speaker 5>write about in Butcher of Hanover. Let's talk about Fritz Harmon.

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<v Speaker 5>Right in the beginning, you say he was born in Hanover, Germany,

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<v Speaker 5>October twenty fifth, eighteen seventy nine, and his father was

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<v Speaker 5>Alie and his mother Johannah. Tell us a little bit

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<v Speaker 5>about his parents, He had five siblings. Tell us a

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<v Speaker 5>little bit about his early life, what that was like

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<v Speaker 5>in Hanover.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, his early life, the family was middle class. His

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<v Speaker 2>father was a worker, and you know, they didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of money, but they were comfortable. They

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<v Speaker 2>were kind of a middle class, a little upper middle class.

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<v Speaker 2>He was the sixth of the children, the last and

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<v Speaker 2>when it happened, his mother became a little bit ill

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<v Speaker 2>and she was having problems being mobile, so she was

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<v Speaker 2>stuck to her dad a lot more than normal, so

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't get around too much. She had married Olie

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<v Speaker 2>and only was a younger guy and better I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to say better looking, but he was young and

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<v Speaker 2>sort of healthy, and she was a little bit a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit older than him, like seven eight years older,

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<v Speaker 2>and so so that that kind of was a little

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<v Speaker 2>different in their personalities. You know, it's kind of referred

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<v Speaker 2>to that. Why why Allie married her was because she

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<v Speaker 2>had a pretty good dowry, which is what the husband

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<v Speaker 2>would get back in those days when a couple got

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<v Speaker 2>married like this. So he was a playboy. He was

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<v Speaker 2>constantly out with other women, he was carousing, and he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't spend a lot of time at home. So that

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of the start for you how Fritz came

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<v Speaker 2>into the world.

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<v Speaker 5>How did his mother treat Fritz and tell us what

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<v Speaker 5>she liked to do and have him do as a boy.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, that was kind of because she was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuck to her room a lot in her

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<v Speaker 2>bedroom and didn't get out too much. She had him

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<v Speaker 2>placed right in her bedroom with her, and she spent

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<v Speaker 2>all of her time with him, and she was raising

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<v Speaker 2>him as like a little girl. She dressed him in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of his sister's clothing, taught him how to sew,

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<v Speaker 2>he played with dolls. He was growing up very very feminine,

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<v Speaker 2>very much like a little girl had grown up. So

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't really treat him like a boy. And then

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<v Speaker 2>the father being away from home so much and not

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<v Speaker 2>being interested in him or the kids, any of them,

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't really learn how to do sports or anything

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<v Speaker 2>sort of that a boy would be doing in those times,

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<v Speaker 2>and it really hit him hard by the time he

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<v Speaker 2>got into school, because when he got into school, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>all the other boys would tease him and make fun

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<v Speaker 2>of him because he was into dolls and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of girl things, and he didn't like sports, and he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't like doing anything that the boys liked to do.

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<v Speaker 5>You say that he was apparently or supposedly molested by

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<v Speaker 5>a teacher at eight years old, but then you write

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<v Speaker 5>that he became more physically fit and strong as a teenager. Regardless,

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<v Speaker 5>he quit school at fifteen years old and enrolled in

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<v Speaker 5>the military in April eighteen ninety five. You write what

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<v Speaker 5>was his military service like and what happened in that

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<v Speaker 5>eighteen ninety five.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Yeah, he kind of becomes stronger from being constant.

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<v Speaker 2>He picked on and he became pretty athletic. He was

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<v Speaker 2>pretty fit, and so when his father give him permission

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<v Speaker 2>to quit school at fifteen, he joined the military and

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<v Speaker 2>he jumped right in. Now, at the beginning, he was

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<v Speaker 2>considered quite good. He wasn't a bad trainer or trainee,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was doing quite well. But about five months

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<v Speaker 2>or so into the service, he started having memory lapses

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<v Speaker 2>and losing periods of time where he didn't know what happened,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was a thought that he was passing out

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<v Speaker 2>and having short you know, I don't know what, seizures

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<v Speaker 2>of some sort. And it wasn't until I think in

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<v Speaker 2>the fall of that same year, eighteen ninety five, while

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<v Speaker 2>they were on an exercise, he actually collapsed, and so

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<v Speaker 2>they took him to the military hospital and they diagnosed

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<v Speaker 2>him back then with an anxiety neurosis. He sort of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they thought they could treat him, but their

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<v Speaker 2>treatment and even their diagnosis was not really the best

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<v Speaker 2>back then, they didn't really understand what was going on.

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<v Speaker 2>They treated him for about four months and really with

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<v Speaker 2>no successful outcome or no cure. So he actually discharged himself.

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<v Speaker 2>He walked away from the military and they let him

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<v Speaker 2>go not a problem, and that was because he just

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't functioning and they couldn't seem to get him back

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<v Speaker 2>at her at the hospital, so they couldn't cure him

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<v Speaker 2>in their mind.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you write that he returns to Hanover and a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of this psychiatric evaluation they used terms like irreversible

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<v Speaker 5>brain damage, also having epilepsy or early dementia, or as

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<v Speaker 5>you write it was known as schizophrenia, so they were

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<v Speaker 5>it was all considered some form of mental illness, dehabilitating

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<v Speaker 5>mental illness. So he was really he got a pension, however,

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<v Speaker 5>but he returned to Hanover and his dad's cigar factory.

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<v Speaker 5>You write that as early as July eighteen ninety six,

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<v Speaker 5>he committed his first known of many sex offenses. What

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<v Speaker 5>did all these sex offenses involved and what were some

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<v Speaker 5>of the characteristics of his.

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<v Speaker 2>M Well, he would meet other boys really around his age,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe a little younger, maybe even a year or two older.

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<v Speaker 2>He would become friends, and he would lure them back

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<v Speaker 2>to private place and he would have sex with him,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of cases they said he was affaulting them,

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<v Speaker 2>he was forcing them, right, And so that was the

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<v Speaker 2>first thing that he got arrested for was with I

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<v Speaker 2>believe it was a fourteen year old and so yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so of course they sent him to be evaluated again,

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<v Speaker 2>and again he was diagnosed with an incurable incurability ranged

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<v Speaker 2>like they you know, and so this side he would

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<v Speaker 2>be unfit to stand trial. So he never had to

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<v Speaker 2>go to court and jail per se or something like that,

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<v Speaker 2>and the little things like this kept on happening. This

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<v Speaker 2>went on for at least another year.

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<v Speaker 5>You say that he was ordered confined to the institution indefinitely,

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<v Speaker 5>but however, seven months later, what happens and where does

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<v Speaker 5>he go?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was confined there, and it was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>strange because his mother actually came and helped him break

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<v Speaker 2>out in essence, and so he got away and he

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<v Speaker 2>ended up going to I believe Switzerland. I think he

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<v Speaker 2>went right into Zurich, and he ended up staying with

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<v Speaker 2>a friend of his mother's, like a really close friend,

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<v Speaker 2>almost like an uncle. And so that's where he ended up,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was by I think Christmas of eighteen ninety seven,

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<v Speaker 2>which is it's kind of it's kind of stilly. But

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<v Speaker 2>then he just started to work on the shipyards there

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<v Speaker 2>and he was a handyman and he was fairly quiet private.

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<v Speaker 2>He never really got into trouble. He never got out

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<v Speaker 2>into the society into Zurich very much. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>loner and he was I think he was a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit scared too as well.

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<v Speaker 5>By then, in April eighteen ninety nine, he's back. He

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<v Speaker 5>stays sixteen months in Zurich before returning to Hanover. You right,

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<v Speaker 5>And then then eighteen ninety nine he becomes engaged to

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<v Speaker 5>a woman named Erna Lowert and she becomes pregnant shortly after.

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<v Speaker 5>But you talk about October nineteen ninety he gets a notification.

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<v Speaker 5>What's this notification for? And where does he go?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in the early nineteen hundred, France had become a

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<v Speaker 2>threat to Germany military and so they ordered conscription. So

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted all young men to go serve, and so

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<v Speaker 2>he was served a letter it was mandatory you're in

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<v Speaker 2>the military. So when he got that, he had to

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<v Speaker 2>go serve his compulsory time essays say, so that he left,

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<v Speaker 2>he left his girlfriend soon to be wife with her

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<v Speaker 2>soon to have child type thing and father and went

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<v Speaker 2>to the military.

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<v Speaker 5>And what was his service this time characterized by you

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<v Speaker 5>say that he had a comment after this term of service.

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<v Speaker 5>So what was his experience like in the military this time?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know that actually wasn't much different from the

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<v Speaker 2>first one in the sense that he was able to

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<v Speaker 2>perform as do. He started out doing a fairly good job.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a fairly good record, just like in the

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<v Speaker 2>first time. When he was with the military, he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have any problems and all of a sudden, it was

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<v Speaker 2>just it was maybe a year into it, in I

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<v Speaker 2>believe October of one that he found out that his

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<v Speaker 2>mother died and he was very close to her, and

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<v Speaker 2>he got into a terrible depression and he was unable

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<v Speaker 2>to do anything. They could hardly get him up. They

213
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<v Speaker 2>could do anything, he wouldn't do anything. He would eat.

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<v Speaker 2>Then he started coming back with the dizzy spells and

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00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>there was times where he said he couldn't see, he

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't see what his eyes were all gone blurry. And

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00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.600
<v Speaker 2>again during an exercise, same as the first time, he

218
00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.080
<v Speaker 2>collapsed and like the first time he was sent to

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00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:02.240
<v Speaker 2>the hospital, and this time the military had diagnosed him

220
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:07.240
<v Speaker 2>with unable to serve. It wasn't like he pulled himself

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00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.240
<v Speaker 2>out like in the first time. This time they said, sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>we're dismissing you. You cannot serve for us. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>when he actually started getting his pension and then returned

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<v Speaker 2>back to the field and say in Hanover and his

225
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.120
<v Speaker 2>father and that whole scenario. So we returned home and

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<v Speaker 2>picked up where he left off.

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<v Speaker 5>Now you talk about the relationship he has with his

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<v Speaker 5>father after he comes back from the military. Tell us

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<v Speaker 5>about these lawsuits and this discourse or this disenchant over

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<v Speaker 5>each other, father and son.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh yeah, his father didn't like him from the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>There was some sort of issue and there's something behind

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<v Speaker 2>this of his mother keeping him in the bedroom from

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00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:55.600
<v Speaker 2>the beginning. And they were never really they never really

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00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.960
<v Speaker 2>got along. But this time, now that he was older,

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00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:03.039
<v Speaker 2>stronger and was more had more courage, I guess, and

237
00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.559
<v Speaker 2>wasn't scared of his father, they started fighting. They would

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00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.200
<v Speaker 2>fight over all sorts of things, and it was so

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00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:15.720
<v Speaker 2>bad initially that the father decided to give his fiance

240
00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.799
<v Speaker 2>a business like it was a fish laundery, and he

241
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.720
<v Speaker 2>put it all in her name. He refused to put

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<v Speaker 2>any of it in his own son's name. It's his

243
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:30.240
<v Speaker 2>money and what he got from Fritz's mother, and he

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00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.360
<v Speaker 2>gave it to the future you know, daughter in law,

245
00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.840
<v Speaker 2>to the fiance and say this is your business. So

246
00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:38.759
<v Speaker 2>he would have to work there. That was a terrible,

247
00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.960
<v Speaker 2>terrible insult, and so they would fight. He would fight

248
00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.840
<v Speaker 2>with his fiance, he would fight with his father, and

249
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.759
<v Speaker 2>he walked out on his father as because his father

250
00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:52.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to keep working at his cigar shop and he wouldn't.

251
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<v Speaker 2>So the living situation was just awful, and they thought

252
00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:04.039
<v Speaker 2>constantly and eventually Fritz would sue his own father, you know,

253
00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:06.759
<v Speaker 2>he would he would walk off the job and he

254
00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:08.639
<v Speaker 2>sued him. And I think that was again in fall

255
00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen oh two, and he was saying that his

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00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:14.960
<v Speaker 2>father was making his workplace unbearable and he couldn't work

257
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.399
<v Speaker 2>there because of his father, and he couldn't perform his

258
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.399
<v Speaker 2>job and it was hard, and his father knew of

259
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.159
<v Speaker 2>his mental condition, so he really worked that but he lost.

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00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:29.679
<v Speaker 2>That was the case that they didn't hear for very long,

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00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and they kind of they were a little They were

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00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:37.080
<v Speaker 2>a little less caring in a way of people saying

263
00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.639
<v Speaker 2>that they had mental illness. That was not considered anything

264
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:44.320
<v Speaker 2>of sympathy back then, you know, but even with psychologists,

265
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.639
<v Speaker 2>because you know that they called alienists and stuff, and

266
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.480
<v Speaker 2>they didn't really think of him as serious medicine here,

267
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.279
<v Speaker 2>like this is a real condition. This is just all

268
00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>made up. So he ended up losing it, and he

269
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.159
<v Speaker 2>ended up coming back to the other and all that again.

270
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:05.160
<v Speaker 2>But then they got into a huge fight assault. He

271
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.039
<v Speaker 2>assaulted his father and he threatened him and he it

272
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.240
<v Speaker 2>was terrible. The police had to come and take him away,

273
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:16.079
<v Speaker 2>and again he was placed in jail this time, but

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00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:18.480
<v Speaker 2>the father ended up working out a deal where he

275
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.359
<v Speaker 2>would drop the charges, but he wanted Fritz to see

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00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.839
<v Speaker 2>a proper psychologist and he needed help, and so this

277
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.400
<v Speaker 2>was ordered by the judge, and in the following year,

278
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.839
<v Speaker 2>nineteen o three, he did see a doctor by the

279
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:42.240
<v Speaker 2>court and he was ruled mentally unstable and morally inferior

280
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:48.079
<v Speaker 2>whatever that means, and with that in itself, but they

281
00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:51.759
<v Speaker 2>didn't place them in any institute. They let him go.

282
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.359
<v Speaker 2>They said, well, yeah, you have these conditions, but were

283
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.640
<v Speaker 2>not forcing you to get treatment for it. So he

284
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.599
<v Speaker 2>came to back out and there we go. He's back

285
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.599
<v Speaker 2>in the same situation again, and the two of them

286
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:06.759
<v Speaker 2>would continue fighting.

287
00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.920
<v Speaker 5>You talk about a siance who was pregnant. She terminates

288
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.079
<v Speaker 5>their engagement. She's had enough the fish mungery, like you say,

289
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.839
<v Speaker 5>the business was in her name. She told him to leave,

290
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.839
<v Speaker 5>and so you say. For the next decade, Fritz Harmon

291
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.039
<v Speaker 5>lives as a petty thief, burglar, and con artist and

292
00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:32.200
<v Speaker 5>in nineteen oh five served several short jail terms sentences

293
00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:37.799
<v Speaker 5>for larceny, embezzlman and assault, and in nineteen thirteen arrested

294
00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.960
<v Speaker 5>for a series of burglaries, sentenced to five years and

295
00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.519
<v Speaker 5>released in nineteen eighteen and went to Hanover. Tell us

296
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.480
<v Speaker 5>what happens in nineteen eighteen when he goes and rents

297
00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:50.839
<v Speaker 5>his a single room apartment.

298
00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they let him out. He was getting out in

299
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.960
<v Speaker 2>the last year in the daytime because everyone had gone

300
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to the military with the upcoming and with the war

301
00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.680
<v Speaker 2>and everything happening, and so they didn't have enough mail

302
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:12.039
<v Speaker 2>workers in the cities. So from prison he would be

303
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.599
<v Speaker 2>allowed to come out and work, and eventually he got

304
00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.119
<v Speaker 2>out in New York. You're right, he got his own apartment.

305
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just a one bedroom in the downtown. And it's

306
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:28.559
<v Speaker 2>really important to understand that Germany was in a terrible depression,

307
00:19:29.559 --> 00:19:33.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, awful poverty. There was just no money, no

308
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.440
<v Speaker 2>jobs for a lot of people were were just wondering,

309
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, place to place, looking for money or anything

310
00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:47.720
<v Speaker 2>like that. And so what he would do was he

311
00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.160
<v Speaker 2>went right back into the life of crime that he

312
00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>had left when he went into prison. He went right

313
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:57.119
<v Speaker 2>back into you know, sieving and stealing and doing whatever

314
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.279
<v Speaker 2>he had to to get by. And he had a

315
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.880
<v Speaker 2>good amount of it experience. He was getting really good

316
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:06.960
<v Speaker 2>at stealing people's properties and getting what he needed to

317
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.599
<v Speaker 2>get food and to get his rent paid and stuff

318
00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:14.000
<v Speaker 2>like that. He kind of rose to the top of

319
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.920
<v Speaker 2>the criminal breed. On the streets, you might say. One

320
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:20.640
<v Speaker 2>of the biggest hangouts was, of course the stations, the

321
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.559
<v Speaker 2>train station, like Hanover station, where a lot of the

322
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:28.279
<v Speaker 2>homeless kids, our kids were going station to station and

323
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.519
<v Speaker 2>hang it out and they would get what they could

324
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.880
<v Speaker 2>for food, some of them would. It was just it

325
00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:37.200
<v Speaker 2>was a really really bad time for things like that.

326
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:42.839
<v Speaker 2>And so he started hanging out there and he could

327
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:47.039
<v Speaker 2>work with some criminals and some others. He would offer

328
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:51.839
<v Speaker 2>them a place to stay or he started getting really integrated.

329
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:57.279
<v Speaker 2>He was really in with that whole criminal you know,

330
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:01.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of element back then, and he become very successful

331
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.240
<v Speaker 2>at this life of crime, and he started to make

332
00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.359
<v Speaker 2>a good amount of money. And at the same time,

333
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:09.079
<v Speaker 2>you have to look at the with all of the

334
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:13.200
<v Speaker 2>men gone to the war, Like the police station in Hannover,

335
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:16.359
<v Speaker 2>I think they had twelve officers left to run the

336
00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.839
<v Speaker 2>whole town, the whole city, all the crime, so they

337
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:24.240
<v Speaker 2>were really overrun. They were very short on support, and

338
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:26.799
<v Speaker 2>a lot of crimes they were just kind of letting

339
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.920
<v Speaker 2>go by because they just didn't they didn't have the time,

340
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:32.799
<v Speaker 2>they didn't have a lot of these guys were working

341
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:34.880
<v Speaker 2>six seven days a week and they could not keep

342
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.839
<v Speaker 2>up with it. So they were trying to keep the

343
00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:41.759
<v Speaker 2>most popular or probably the most serious crimes in order.

344
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:47.480
<v Speaker 2>And eventually Harmon worked his way in with the police

345
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.880
<v Speaker 2>where he ended up being a kind of an informant.

346
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.759
<v Speaker 2>Was he became very close and they would rely on

347
00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.640
<v Speaker 2>anybody like that because they needed all the help could get.

348
00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:08.160
<v Speaker 5>Right now. In September nineteen, nineteen eighteen, Harmon, who's thirty

349
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.599
<v Speaker 5>nine years old at that time. He meets a young

350
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:16.720
<v Speaker 5>man at seventeen Freedo or Oath, in a coffee in

351
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:20.960
<v Speaker 5>a coffee shop, and Roath is a runaway and needs

352
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.920
<v Speaker 5>a place to sleep. Tell us about what happens. He

353
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:30.960
<v Speaker 5>also introduces to Harmon his classmate Fred. Tell us what

354
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:37.000
<v Speaker 5>happens here and how this leads to the meeting of Hans.

355
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.160
<v Speaker 5>His meeting with Hans Groans.

356
00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:43.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was his typical he's meeting guys and he

357
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.799
<v Speaker 2>would often them place to stay of food, and that's

358
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:51.240
<v Speaker 2>how he got with Ross and then Roth himself and

359
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:53.480
<v Speaker 2>his friend, like Fred you were saying, they would all

360
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:56.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of hang out and he would end up having

361
00:22:56.599 --> 00:22:59.559
<v Speaker 2>sex with them, that you know, sex for food and

362
00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>her or for money and a place to stay and

363
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:05.079
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. And that's kind of how what the

364
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:08.400
<v Speaker 2>three of them had. But the main thing is that

365
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Fritz Harmon was really he liked Roth and that was

366
00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of so he was kind of trying to keep

367
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.799
<v Speaker 2>him around and be more of a let's go for dinner,

368
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.720
<v Speaker 2>let's do something, and he tried to use him a

369
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:26.160
<v Speaker 2>little bit more. And Ross claimed, I guess at the

370
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>time and from what we hear that he wasn't homosexual,

371
00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:33.000
<v Speaker 2>but he only did it for money and for food.

372
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:36.279
<v Speaker 2>He would only have sex with men. That is, so

373
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't really in that. And eventually, back at the apartment,

374
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:47.079
<v Speaker 2>Fritz's apartment, he made advances to Roll. He didn't want

375
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.240
<v Speaker 2>to do this, so he attacked him. He ended up

376
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:54.119
<v Speaker 2>killing him, raping him and killing him. And that was

377
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:57.920
<v Speaker 2>the very first time that we know or there's any

378
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:03.039
<v Speaker 2>record of him actually uh biting the app Adam's apple,

379
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.000
<v Speaker 2>but biting that part of the neck while they're engaged

380
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.599
<v Speaker 2>in sex, and he would rip it off with his

381
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.160
<v Speaker 2>teeth and this caused a lot of blood and it

382
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.680
<v Speaker 2>also caused a kind of a paralyzation with the arms.

383
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 2>So and that that that was kind of the story

384
00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.079
<v Speaker 2>and how it came out as the vampire Hanover because

385
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:25.559
<v Speaker 2>of the blood and the neck. And that's kind of

386
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.720
<v Speaker 2>where one of his names that he was tagged with

387
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.039
<v Speaker 2>eventually came from, because he did this quite often with

388
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:34.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of his victims.

389
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.440
<v Speaker 5>Mm hm. You write that that he later says that

390
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.039
<v Speaker 5>this murder or this pardon me, this rape away awakened

391
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.079
<v Speaker 5>the murderous urge in him never felt before and he

392
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.519
<v Speaker 5>and he goes on. You get this information via him

393
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.319
<v Speaker 5>that he was butchered and beheaded before breaking up the bones,

394
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.119
<v Speaker 5>and he took after he took several overnight trips to

395
00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:06.440
<v Speaker 5>the cemetery over the next few weeks and put the

396
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 5>body in a suitcase to be able to do that,

397
00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:12.920
<v Speaker 5>but he kept some human remains behind the stove. You

398
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:18.839
<v Speaker 5>write in the apartment, what happens with this Roth's friends

399
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.440
<v Speaker 5>they report him missing. Tell us a little bit about

400
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.200
<v Speaker 5>their behavior and their initiative.

401
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when he went missing, he just didn't show off.

402
00:25:29.279 --> 00:25:33.880
<v Speaker 2>He was no longer around. Of course, I believe they

403
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.240
<v Speaker 2>told his mother originally and she went to the police,

404
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.519
<v Speaker 2>but nothing was really happening. The police, like I said,

405
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:43.640
<v Speaker 2>they were overrun. They had tons of runaway reports people

406
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, all over the streets. It was not a

407
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.880
<v Speaker 2>high priority, and they didn't have the resources to go

408
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.400
<v Speaker 2>looking for this runaway kid who was prostituting himself at

409
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the train station going missing because there were several of them,

410
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.759
<v Speaker 2>there wasn't just one. So they didn't really pursue it

411
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:06.759
<v Speaker 2>very much. And so eventually the friends looked around and

412
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>they tracked down Harmon and where he lived, and they

413
00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:14.400
<v Speaker 2>knew it was him, and because they weren't, you know,

414
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.000
<v Speaker 2>there was nothing being done. So they went and pushed

415
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.599
<v Speaker 2>the police even harder, and they even got both of

416
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:24.599
<v Speaker 2>Roth's parents to come to the police station and also

417
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:29.519
<v Speaker 2>pushed this thing. And so it was just it was

418
00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.960
<v Speaker 2>a really tough go for them. This took a little

419
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:36.720
<v Speaker 2>while and it was only after a fair bit of time.

420
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:38.839
<v Speaker 2>I think it was like October or something. It was

421
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.920
<v Speaker 2>like probably a good month later that they finally decided

422
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.839
<v Speaker 2>they would go question Harmon at this apartment. You remember

423
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.759
<v Speaker 2>that they also considered Harmon to be an informer and

424
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.599
<v Speaker 2>someone that they that kind of trusted and was kind

425
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 2>of one of the boys so to speak. You know,

426
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.319
<v Speaker 2>he was part of their team, so they weren't really

427
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:02.240
<v Speaker 2>looking to do like maybe they didn't believe it. The

428
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:06.160
<v Speaker 2>hard thing is they kind of knew he was homosexual,

429
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.920
<v Speaker 2>which was a big deal then that was like a crime,

430
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.359
<v Speaker 2>but they didn't want to believe it. But anyway, eventually

431
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:17.799
<v Speaker 2>two of the officers came and when they went to

432
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the door and they got no answer, and they and

433
00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:23.920
<v Speaker 2>they broke in through the door and they eventually found

434
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:28.039
<v Speaker 2>they found Harmon there with a young boy who was.

435
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 2>I believe he was thirteen, and he was in bed

436
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.519
<v Speaker 2>with Harmon who was naked and the boy was almost naked.

437
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 2>So they arrested him and they charged him with the

438
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:44.119
<v Speaker 2>sexual assault of a miner and he was taken to jail.

439
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:48.079
<v Speaker 2>And so that's how it happened with Roth. That's what

440
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.440
<v Speaker 2>that's what came out of it. And when you mentioned

441
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 2>the body part, yeah, he had. He had cut up

442
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the body and disposed of everything except for the head

443
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and he had that rap in a lot of newspaper

444
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:06.440
<v Speaker 2>and little sack sort of thing that he had, and

445
00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:08.960
<v Speaker 2>that was kind of in a cupboard where they normally

446
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:12.440
<v Speaker 2>kept wood and stuff that was behind the stove. So

447
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.400
<v Speaker 2>that was in the house. Now, they didn't have an

448
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>arrest warrant, and again they were sort of not really

449
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.920
<v Speaker 2>all that into searching the house or anything like that

450
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:24.279
<v Speaker 2>because they still didn't believe that he killed anybody. He

451
00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:27.880
<v Speaker 2>was just a homosexual. So he ended up serving I

452
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.079
<v Speaker 2>believe nine months. I think he got a year or

453
00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.440
<v Speaker 2>something and he served nine months in prison to that.

454
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:36.519
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you talk about during his time that he's trying

455
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:41.480
<v Speaker 5>to avoid that sentence, and so by doing that, he's

456
00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:44.960
<v Speaker 5>for a year he's changing addresses. But during this time,

457
00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 5>you say, this is when he met an eighteen year

458
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.799
<v Speaker 5>old man on the run that was living on the

459
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:57.400
<v Speaker 5>streets selling clothing and things. Hans Groans And apparently Hans

460
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:04.160
<v Speaker 5>knew of Fritz Harmon. He knew who he was. Tell

461
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.559
<v Speaker 5>us a little bit more about this important meeting.

462
00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a lot of a lot of the younger guys

463
00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 2>knew who Fritz was. Fritz was he had a little

464
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.720
<v Speaker 2>pass that he had from the police, and he was

465
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.519
<v Speaker 2>at the train stations all the time, and he would

466
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:26.400
<v Speaker 2>go waiting room to waiting room, and he would ask

467
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:31.480
<v Speaker 2>people for papers, and he was constantly involved with all

468
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>the street kids and all the gangsters and so to

469
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:38.000
<v Speaker 2>speak and stuff. So, yeah, Hans knew who he was.

470
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:41.759
<v Speaker 2>Hans was a runaway and he knew that the rumor

471
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.559
<v Speaker 2>was that he was homosexual. And if you, you know,

472
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>put out for him, you would get food or a

473
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.400
<v Speaker 2>place to stay. He would treat you really nice. Sometimes

474
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:53.440
<v Speaker 2>he'd give you money or you know whatever, stuff like that.

475
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.599
<v Speaker 2>So that was in Hans's mind when they first met,

476
00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:03.599
<v Speaker 2>and that was kind of what Hans quite often declared

477
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:07.480
<v Speaker 2>that he was not gay, he was a straight man.

478
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:10.799
<v Speaker 2>And he had several girlfriends and and this is true,

479
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.079
<v Speaker 2>he did have quite a string of girlfriends throughout the

480
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.960
<v Speaker 2>whole time, so that is believable. But he had no

481
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.279
<v Speaker 2>problem staying with Fritz and having sex with him and

482
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 2>being part of the Fritz sort of thing. And and

483
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>with with with Fritz, he was immediately attracted. Hans was

484
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.400
<v Speaker 2>a you know, kind of a nice looking, well well dressed,

485
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.559
<v Speaker 2>very very handsome man, and he really was attracted to

486
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.160
<v Speaker 2>him and you know, charming. It's just he just had

487
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.559
<v Speaker 2>it all. So it was it was kind of like

488
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:53.440
<v Speaker 2>the perfect combination at the time.

489
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.720
<v Speaker 5>Let's he says. As an opportunity to stop for a

490
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:02.599
<v Speaker 5>second for these messages from our sponsor, which Quip. Good

491
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.640
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492
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.880
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493
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494
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495
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496
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497
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498
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499
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500
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501
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502
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503
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504
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505
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507
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508
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509
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510
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511
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:28.440
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512
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:38.440
<v Speaker 5>quip dot com slash shocking Quip the Good Habits Company. Now, Alan,

513
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.960
<v Speaker 5>we were just talking about this very faithful meeting of

514
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:50.000
<v Speaker 5>Hans Granz and Fritz Harmon, and they both have a interest.

515
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.039
<v Speaker 5>They both have an interest in each other for different reasons.

516
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.599
<v Speaker 5>You write that in nineteen nineteen they moved into a

517
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:00.240
<v Speaker 5>house together. They only stayed about six months. They kept moving,

518
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:06.559
<v Speaker 5>but eventually they moved to an apartment near the Leanne River.

519
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.319
<v Speaker 5>Tell us what happens at this apartment and then there's

520
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.519
<v Speaker 5>another address as well. There's three addresses in total that

521
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.599
<v Speaker 5>are important. Tell us about some of their time behavior.

522
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:25.200
<v Speaker 5>What was it characterized by and when does this partnership

523
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:27.640
<v Speaker 5>turn into something much different?

524
00:33:29.319 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was. It was kind of an interesting relationship

525
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:38.160
<v Speaker 2>because for Hans, it was just a you know, a

526
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:40.519
<v Speaker 2>one night stand where he could get some money or

527
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:43.119
<v Speaker 2>food or something. He wasn't looking at it anymore than that.

528
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 2>But Fritz was totally, you know, enamored with him. He's

529
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:51.400
<v Speaker 2>totally in love with with him. So he eventually got

530
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.720
<v Speaker 2>him to come stay with him at first, and you know,

531
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.559
<v Speaker 2>and they ended up having a lot of fights, a

532
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:05.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of art arguments between the two. Hans was kind

533
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:08.320
<v Speaker 2>of on the lazy side. He wanted to sleep in

534
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:11.719
<v Speaker 2>and he just wanted to smoke, you know, drink, hang

535
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.920
<v Speaker 2>out and not really he didn't really have any I

536
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:19.920
<v Speaker 2>don't know, any initiative or anything. So it's that sort

537
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.039
<v Speaker 2>of bothered Fritz. So they had a lot of fights

538
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:27.159
<v Speaker 2>over this sort of situation. Fritz was sometimes more violent.

539
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 2>He would slap Hans. They would have a huge breakup.

540
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.079
<v Speaker 2>He would leave and then Harmon would go out and

541
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>find him, apologize and bring him back home. So they

542
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:41.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of had that type of relationship. It was up

543
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:46.480
<v Speaker 2>and down and happy and angry all at the same time.

544
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 2>So when they've moved into that apartment I believe in

545
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:56.960
<v Speaker 2>December of nineteen, within six months, he had to serve

546
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that sentence for his as salt you know of that

547
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.440
<v Speaker 2>thirteen year old boy just a few maybe it was

548
00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:08.920
<v Speaker 2>two years earlier. So they actually sent him away. So

549
00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>he gave up the apartment and then that's where he

550
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.000
<v Speaker 2>went to jail, and Hans had to go live at

551
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 2>the train station again. When he got out in nineteen twenty,

552
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.880
<v Speaker 2>he went to a hotel and then he went into

553
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:26.360
<v Speaker 2>this first apartment, which was really kind of a dark,

554
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:29.119
<v Speaker 2>one room. It was like a basement floor apartment with

555
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.400
<v Speaker 2>just it was just one room. Everything was all in

556
00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:35.960
<v Speaker 2>one room. It wasn't that was a new strab and

557
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:40.360
<v Speaker 2>so that's where they started getting back together again. And

558
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.559
<v Speaker 2>that's the two of them moved in I believe July

559
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:48.360
<v Speaker 2>of twenty one, and so that's kind of where it

560
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.960
<v Speaker 2>started from there, and that's where things started getting he

561
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:56.800
<v Speaker 2>might say, to the dark side of what happened with

562
00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.880
<v Speaker 2>the couple, You.

563
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:05.320
<v Speaker 5>Right, though, that skulls are not our Skulls are found

564
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:12.880
<v Speaker 5>in nineteen twenty four by some young people, and they've

565
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:16.159
<v Speaker 5>determined that the ages of these people eighteen to twenty.

566
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.639
<v Speaker 5>Another skull is found. Tell us about the newspaper reports

567
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:23.000
<v Speaker 5>and these skulls being found and what it stirs up

568
00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:24.519
<v Speaker 5>in Germany.

569
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was pretty scary for a lot of people.

570
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.000
<v Speaker 2>There was just a couple of kids that were hanging out.

571
00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:34.679
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people hung along the river and there

572
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:38.480
<v Speaker 2>was nothing to do, so they would hang out and

573
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:42.760
<v Speaker 2>they skull washed up and they told I believe the

574
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>mother who told the police. And then two weeks later

575
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:52.000
<v Speaker 2>another skull came up. It started becoming a real panic

576
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:56.760
<v Speaker 2>in the area. So the police would end up eventually

577
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:00.760
<v Speaker 2>dragging the river and where they would have I believe

578
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 2>it was well over four hundred bones and body parts

579
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:08.320
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, you know, centered around that skulls and things

580
00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:14.039
<v Speaker 2>like that. So kind of a real fear started taking

581
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:18.360
<v Speaker 2>over the community because like who was like what was

582
00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:22.159
<v Speaker 2>all this? And so everyone got scared and there was

583
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:26.159
<v Speaker 2>kind of this terror in the in the city, and

584
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:30.199
<v Speaker 2>that's kind of where it all started falling apart too.

585
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.280
<v Speaker 5>You write about that, You say that Hans is a

586
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:41.519
<v Speaker 5>heterosexual and as such he has a girlfriend named Dorchin Maturgic,

587
00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:46.679
<v Speaker 5>and she has a friend and she's also you write

588
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.119
<v Speaker 5>that she's a prostitute as well, and also cleans up

589
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.880
<v Speaker 5>a housekeeper. But she has a friend named Ellie Schultz,

590
00:37:54.079 --> 00:38:01.199
<v Speaker 5>and they are at the apartment of Fritz Harmon. And

591
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:04.719
<v Speaker 5>fitz Harmon, there's another person that's a seventeen year old

592
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.679
<v Speaker 5>piano player, a young man tell us about this incredible

593
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:12.119
<v Speaker 5>scene that they find out much later, but you have

594
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:17.039
<v Speaker 5>via this information this extraordinary, horrific scene.

595
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the seventeen year old he was a piano player.

596
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:25.360
<v Speaker 2>I think he was from Berlin, about seventeen at the time,

597
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:29.320
<v Speaker 2>and he was traveling around playing for just money and food.

598
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.119
<v Speaker 2>He wasn't getting a whole lot of money, but he was.

599
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:38.760
<v Speaker 2>He was surviving, and of course they spotted him. And

600
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.280
<v Speaker 2>the story is slightly different on each case, but basically

601
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:47.199
<v Speaker 2>they spot him and they ended up partying with him,

602
00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:51.920
<v Speaker 2>drinking and bringing them back home. Now, the two girls

603
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.760
<v Speaker 2>and Hans Grons and Fritz were all back at the apartment,

604
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.639
<v Speaker 2>so with this piano player, and that's how it was.

605
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:04.280
<v Speaker 2>When the ladies and Gron's left. When they come back,

606
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:13.400
<v Speaker 2>apparently have the say, so they come back and they

607
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:15.920
<v Speaker 2>were going to clean his apartment, because they cleaned every

608
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:19.079
<v Speaker 2>apartment in that building. He kept on telling them, well,

609
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:21.199
<v Speaker 2>you can have to come back later, I'm busy and

610
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:25.280
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that, and so they didn't really know what

611
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:27.800
<v Speaker 2>was going on. And then of course Hans when he

612
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.480
<v Speaker 2>came in, saw the seventeen year old laying in the bed,

613
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.119
<v Speaker 2>but at the time didn't know he was dead, or

614
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:39.440
<v Speaker 2>claimed he didn't know. And then later the house papers

615
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:44.199
<v Speaker 2>come back and they're cleaning, and of course they're very snoopy,

616
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:48.800
<v Speaker 2>and they ended up going through a cupboard and finding

617
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:56.320
<v Speaker 2>what they considered to be meat that had hair on it,

618
00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:00.760
<v Speaker 2>and they believed it was part of the boy, and

619
00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:02.920
<v Speaker 2>so they wrote a letter and they actually went to

620
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:06.039
<v Speaker 2>the police and they wrote an actual complaint to the

621
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.280
<v Speaker 2>police saying that because because he would give them meat

622
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>sometimes in payment, he would give a lot of people meat.

623
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, meat was a really tough thing to come

624
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:19.440
<v Speaker 2>by at that time, and it was very expensive and

625
00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.199
<v Speaker 2>some people couldn't even get it, so this was a

626
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.599
<v Speaker 2>big deal. And I guess there was some hair on it.

627
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.840
<v Speaker 2>And then when they found that little apart, they complained

628
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:33.079
<v Speaker 2>to the police that in their mind they thought that

629
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Fritz had killed this boy and cut him up and

630
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.719
<v Speaker 2>was using his meat to sell and give to people. Now,

631
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.039
<v Speaker 2>in this particular case, I don't think there's really any

632
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:51.280
<v Speaker 2>truth to it. And later when they tested it, it was,

633
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:56.039
<v Speaker 2>in fact port it wasn't human. So we know that

634
00:40:56.119 --> 00:41:00.199
<v Speaker 2>the meat that they the housekeepers had brought forward to

635
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:03.599
<v Speaker 2>say it was human wasn't right.

636
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:06.800
<v Speaker 5>You also write, though, that what would lead them to

637
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.960
<v Speaker 5>believe that possibly this would be meat too is the

638
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 5>odd behavior when they came to clean, they said later

639
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:15.480
<v Speaker 5>in the afternoon. When they came, the door was locked.

640
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:18.960
<v Speaker 5>He said, I'm busy, come back later. And then when

641
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.599
<v Speaker 5>they came in the place was spotless, like it had

642
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 5>been cleaned, and then he asked questions like does it

643
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:32.880
<v Speaker 5>smell in here? So their suspicion was warranted, I would

644
00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:34.079
<v Speaker 5>say certainly.

645
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:38.199
<v Speaker 2>So, oh yeah, for sure. It was suspicious behavior, for sure.

646
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.800
<v Speaker 2>But you know whether how far he would go with

647
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the meat and cutting and butchering and giving to them

648
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and it was human or was he just having sex

649
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.840
<v Speaker 2>with the boys because he was known as a homosexual,

650
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:56.320
<v Speaker 2>which they all knew. What made them jump to he's

651
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.320
<v Speaker 2>actually not only having sex with these boys, but he's

652
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 2>killing them than using their meat. I don't know what

653
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:04.480
<v Speaker 2>the jump was. I don't know what made them do that,

654
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.480
<v Speaker 2>because you know, it's hard to say, you know what

655
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:11.639
<v Speaker 2>their relationship was, So I don't know why they suspected that.

656
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well he was a seller of contraband meat, you say,

657
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:19.320
<v Speaker 5>And then you say the contra band meat as well,

658
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:24.639
<v Speaker 5>was was boneless and diced very much like ground meat.

659
00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.960
<v Speaker 5>And so anybody reading that and anybody knowing that would,

660
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:32.639
<v Speaker 5>I would imagine, would be suspicious as well, because you say,

661
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.440
<v Speaker 5>some neighbors wrote that. Some neighbors testified as well that

662
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:40.320
<v Speaker 5>it seemed like he came he left the home with

663
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 5>big bags looking like it was meat packaged. But he

664
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:48.320
<v Speaker 5>didn't come into the home with very many parcels of

665
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.000
<v Speaker 5>meat packed you know, So there was reports later when

666
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:56.960
<v Speaker 5>jumping ahead, But so let's talk about what leads to

667
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.440
<v Speaker 5>his arrest and then what happens.

668
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, you know that sort of lifestyle kept He

669
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:08.079
<v Speaker 2>kept on doing this even though at the time, and

670
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.079
<v Speaker 2>I tried to put that in here. How while things

671
00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 2>were going on, like they were finding a skull, then

672
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:19.440
<v Speaker 2>another pile of bones, and they were doing all these things,

673
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.559
<v Speaker 2>and the terror was still kind of you know, people

674
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 2>were talking and it was becoming a fearful thing about

675
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:30.679
<v Speaker 2>all this. He continued to start picking out bringing boys home,

676
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:36.440
<v Speaker 2>and things kept on happening and they would go missing,

677
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:40.519
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he continued doing this, having sex with

678
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:46.280
<v Speaker 2>young men and killing them basically, and he started quite

679
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:50.639
<v Speaker 2>often they would not only were they suspected of taking

680
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:55.239
<v Speaker 2>them the body for meat, but he would also take

681
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the clothing and he would use it,

682
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:04.320
<v Speaker 2>sell it and re sownew buttons on it, and he

683
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:08.119
<v Speaker 2>would make slight changes to it. But if he wanted

684
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.000
<v Speaker 2>something that someone was wearing, he would take it for himself.

685
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.679
<v Speaker 2>Hans Gron's was really big on this, and that seemed

686
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:19.000
<v Speaker 2>to be a lot of the reports tended to lead

687
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.440
<v Speaker 2>that Hans would see someone at a train station that

688
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:24.920
<v Speaker 2>was dressed really well in a suit and he wanted

689
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.159
<v Speaker 2>that suit, and he would tell Fritz, oh, I want that,

690
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:31.599
<v Speaker 2>You've got to get that, mommy, and suggest to Fritz

691
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:34.719
<v Speaker 2>to take that boy home kill him so that he

692
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.719
<v Speaker 2>could get his suit or clothing or whatever he wanted.

693
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.360
<v Speaker 2>So that was behind a lot of this behavior as well,

694
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:46.360
<v Speaker 2>and so he continued to do this. And I've kind

695
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:53.079
<v Speaker 2>of gone through the twenty seven victims that he was

696
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.039
<v Speaker 2>convicted of or charged with killing, and there's also some

697
00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:01.639
<v Speaker 2>other ones that you know, but there was no proof

698
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.039
<v Speaker 2>of it or there wasn't enough to convict him or Hans.

699
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.800
<v Speaker 2>So that's kind of what the next group and I

700
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:12.039
<v Speaker 2>did the best I could in finding out who the

701
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.519
<v Speaker 2>victim was, anything about their parents, their family, what they did,

702
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:19.119
<v Speaker 2>how they ended up on the street, or how they

703
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.679
<v Speaker 2>ended up meeting him, and we put together the best

704
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:26.280
<v Speaker 2>that I could. It was a lot of research because

705
00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:28.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these documents and a lot of the

706
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.119
<v Speaker 2>papers are all in German, and so I had to

707
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:35.039
<v Speaker 2>go through a whole translation period and go through everything

708
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.719
<v Speaker 2>took that took a really long time to get through,

709
00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.639
<v Speaker 2>and it seems kind of light on some of the victims,

710
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:45.599
<v Speaker 2>but it's only because there was very little information on

711
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the victims. So that kept on going. He didn't seem

712
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.000
<v Speaker 2>to be he didn't seem to be in fear of

713
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:57.719
<v Speaker 2>being caught. While he went through all this stuff. He

714
00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:02.719
<v Speaker 2>just continued, Now I believe it.

715
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.719
<v Speaker 5>Sorry, let's just an opportunity to stop for a second

716
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:06.519
<v Speaker 5>for these messages.

717
00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Round two.

718
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:16.280
<v Speaker 4>Name something that's not boring, laundry, a book club, computer solitaire.

719
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:21.199
<v Speaker 3>Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck casino.

720
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Chum.

721
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:26.360
<v Speaker 3>That's right, Chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino

722
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.719
<v Speaker 3>style games joined today and play for free for your

723
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:35.599
<v Speaker 3>chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chum, Chumbucasino dot comaty

724
00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:37.480
<v Speaker 3>plus start the consion of the Blue whats retails.

725
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.639
<v Speaker 5>Sorry, Allen, you were saying about this opportunity.

726
00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh so he yeah, he kept on doing it, and

727
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:51.880
<v Speaker 2>then it moved up, and then it was It wasn't

728
00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:57.159
<v Speaker 2>until June of twenty four that the kind of the

729
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:00.880
<v Speaker 2>beginning of the end started for him, with the missing

730
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:03.199
<v Speaker 2>children and all of the things going on.

731
00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:10.039
<v Speaker 5>So you write that when the police decide to arrest

732
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.599
<v Speaker 5>Harmon and bring him to the police station, several relatives

733
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 5>of the missing boys and men uh waited outside the

734
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.079
<v Speaker 5>interview room. Tell us a little bit about this. This

735
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:26.360
<v Speaker 5>is another incredible scene.

736
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when when when they arrested him, they kind of

737
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 2>paraded him through the street and it was a big,

738
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.840
<v Speaker 2>big deal, like everyone was just waiting for this to happen.

739
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:41.079
<v Speaker 2>So there's just crowded, and it's amazing because there was

740
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:45.280
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of reports and it was even

741
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:48.280
<v Speaker 2>brought to the court and the and the judge had

742
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:52.480
<v Speaker 2>to give heck to some of the policemen because they

743
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:57.800
<v Speaker 2>apparently stripped him and they beat him, hung him and

744
00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.360
<v Speaker 2>caused a lot of damage to his to his body

745
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:03.599
<v Speaker 2>during the interrogations, and a lot of people listened to

746
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.239
<v Speaker 2>it outside the door. Some claimed that they saw through

747
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:09.719
<v Speaker 2>the keyhole and stuff, and they saw that he had

748
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:12.800
<v Speaker 2>his pants down and that they were doing these things

749
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:17.079
<v Speaker 2>to him and trying to make him confess and stuff.

750
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:19.960
<v Speaker 2>And so I was a pretty big scandal at this time,

751
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:24.239
<v Speaker 2>not so much like it would be today, because it

752
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:29.039
<v Speaker 2>wasn't unusual for the police to use physical means to

753
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:32.159
<v Speaker 2>try and get you, you know, slap you and punch

754
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.960
<v Speaker 2>you and stuff. That was not an unusual behavior for

755
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:38.000
<v Speaker 2>that time. But they seemed like they went they went

756
00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:42.000
<v Speaker 2>much further than they expected and it became a real frenzy,

757
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:46.800
<v Speaker 2>and of course everyone that was really upset about what

758
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.119
<v Speaker 2>he had done to all of these loved ones, all

759
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:53.800
<v Speaker 2>these kids, these boys. It caused a big controversy. And

760
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:57.960
<v Speaker 2>with that, when they raided his apartment and they a

761
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of the neighbors and people, they had four or

762
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:07.719
<v Speaker 2>five hundred pieces of clothing and like satchels and shoes

763
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:11.880
<v Speaker 2>and all sorts of things that they had confiscated, and

764
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:16.039
<v Speaker 2>they decided to put it all in a place and

765
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:21.079
<v Speaker 2>anybody that had any young family member missing, they invited

766
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:23.440
<v Speaker 2>them to come down and see if they could identify

767
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:27.960
<v Speaker 2>any of the clothing or items that they found, books

768
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.559
<v Speaker 2>or papers or anything, and so they did, and that's

769
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of how they started putting together who it was

770
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:39.360
<v Speaker 2>that was murdered, and who different things belonged to and

771
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:42.599
<v Speaker 2>who disappeared and put together the story. And that's sort

772
00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.800
<v Speaker 2>of why it was really difficult, because you have runaways

773
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.440
<v Speaker 2>with very little information out there and living on the

774
00:49:50.440 --> 00:49:56.559
<v Speaker 2>streets and going missing. And if their jacket and bicycle

775
00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:00.480
<v Speaker 2>showed up at their place, does that mean told them?

776
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.760
<v Speaker 2>And I think that was kind of the more than

777
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:08.320
<v Speaker 2>likely that he did so, But it wasn't easy for

778
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.079
<v Speaker 2>them to put this all together. And that's sort of

779
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:11.840
<v Speaker 2>how they did it.

780
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:17.159
<v Speaker 5>You say he was arrested and charged for the twenty

781
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:22.119
<v Speaker 5>seven use and the crimes being committed between nineteen eighteen

782
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:29.760
<v Speaker 5>and nineteen twenty four, and Hans Grans is charged as

783
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:35.440
<v Speaker 5>an accomplice as well. What is his behavior, Prince Harmon's

784
00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:42.280
<v Speaker 5>behavior in regarding his guilt and any kind of details

785
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:47.760
<v Speaker 5>regarding the murders themselves and the difference with Hans Gruns

786
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.719
<v Speaker 5>and his attitude towards his innocence.

787
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they were quite different people, There is no doubt.

788
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:04.679
<v Speaker 2>And Fittz, how do you he actually had no problem admitting.

789
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:09.519
<v Speaker 2>He seemed to be much more open about things. But

790
00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:13.519
<v Speaker 2>he also he cried a lot, He broke down a lot.

791
00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.239
<v Speaker 2>He had to have a sister in with him during

792
00:51:16.280 --> 00:51:22.440
<v Speaker 2>the detective interviews, and and he had a lot of problems.

793
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.599
<v Speaker 2>But and some some suggest it was the sister that

794
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.400
<v Speaker 2>got him to do the confessions. But I don't think

795
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:33.599
<v Speaker 2>he had a huge problem admitting. But he wanted to

796
00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:37.599
<v Speaker 2>make sure that they understood that he never premeditated anything,

797
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:42.119
<v Speaker 2>that it just happened that his intention was never to

798
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:46.599
<v Speaker 2>murder anyone. He would have to, he would have them

799
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:49.559
<v Speaker 2>home and if they got into some sort of you know,

800
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:54.599
<v Speaker 2>sexual thing. Something took over and and he couldn't stop

801
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:58.280
<v Speaker 2>from from killing them, like biting their neck, you know,

802
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.400
<v Speaker 2>and and doing the whole procedure. And then once he

803
00:52:01.480 --> 00:52:03.880
<v Speaker 2>had that done, he had to get rid of the victim.

804
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:08.480
<v Speaker 2>And so he wanted people, he wanted the court to

805
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:12.880
<v Speaker 2>understand that. But he had no problem cutting up a body.

806
00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:15.880
<v Speaker 2>But then he also said that he would be sick

807
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:17.920
<v Speaker 2>for two or three days after he cut up a

808
00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:21.840
<v Speaker 2>body like it. Really it made him physically ill. So

809
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:26.360
<v Speaker 2>there seemed to be this thing about he wanted he

810
00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 2>wanted them to know that he uh it caused a

811
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of stress and terror for him. It was not

812
00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.760
<v Speaker 2>an easy thing, and he was he was as much

813
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:38.840
<v Speaker 2>a victim of some sort of possessing uh that that

814
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.639
<v Speaker 2>made him do this. So so that was kind of

815
00:52:42.639 --> 00:52:45.039
<v Speaker 2>and he wrote his confession that way, and I've included

816
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:49.039
<v Speaker 2>his confession now. Hans Gron's, of course, was more of

817
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the I don't know how to describe him, but he

818
00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:57.639
<v Speaker 2>sort of he wasn't taking responsibility for anything. He put

819
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:01.039
<v Speaker 2>everything on on Fritz and he had nothing to do

820
00:53:01.119 --> 00:53:04.320
<v Speaker 2>with any of it. But during the trial you heard

821
00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:08.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot about these different cases Fritz was pretty convincing

822
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:10.320
<v Speaker 2>at saying, well, I had nothing to do with that,

823
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything about that, or I don't know

824
00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:16.320
<v Speaker 2>that person. I killed him because I was asked to.

825
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:21.159
<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of as you go through each one

826
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:23.559
<v Speaker 2>and the victims, she started to realize that there was

827
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:27.280
<v Speaker 2>definitely the economy here, there was something going on between

828
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:31.519
<v Speaker 2>these two that would create these murders. It was much

829
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:33.440
<v Speaker 2>more than we could see on the surface.

830
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:40.840
<v Speaker 5>You're right that he wasn't arrested right away, Hans, but

831
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 5>Fritz said immediately that some of the murders were at

832
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:51.079
<v Speaker 5>the insistence of Hans. And so a week later after

833
00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:55.719
<v Speaker 5>Fritz was arrested and start talking that Hans was arrested.

834
00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:01.679
<v Speaker 5>Now both of these people are set for trial, and

835
00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:05.440
<v Speaker 5>you talk about the trial in December nineteen twenty four,

836
00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:12.199
<v Speaker 5>and Harmon insists on defending himself at this trial. Tell

837
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.800
<v Speaker 5>us a little bit more about this trial with Fritz

838
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:17.480
<v Speaker 5>Harmon and Hans ground.

839
00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're right, And at the end of the day,

840
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Harmon admitted to killing fourteen of the young men, and

841
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:31.239
<v Speaker 2>so that was kind of his kind of thing. And

842
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.639
<v Speaker 2>of course the prosecution would show all of the evidence

843
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.960
<v Speaker 2>of the clothing that was found, and Fritz would come

844
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:41.880
<v Speaker 2>back and say, well, okay, maybe I did kill him,

845
00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:47.360
<v Speaker 2>like it was so nonchalant. He didn't really There were

846
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:51.239
<v Speaker 2>some victims he really recognized, and some that he would

847
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:53.920
<v Speaker 2>step up and say, yeah, I did this or did that,

848
00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:57.760
<v Speaker 2>but others he wouldn't. And then he had no problem

849
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:05.000
<v Speaker 2>talking about how how he would cut up the bodies

850
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:08.719
<v Speaker 2>and how he would, you know, use a rolling pin

851
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:11.360
<v Speaker 2>or a potail masher. He would have descriptions and stuff.

852
00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:16.280
<v Speaker 2>So he was he was intimately involved in it, but

853
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:20.880
<v Speaker 2>yet he wasn't premeditated, according to him, So it was

854
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of weird, and a lot of the lot of

855
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.480
<v Speaker 2>the people that were involved as well, like his landlady

856
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:31.760
<v Speaker 2>at the time and and other people around him and stuff.

857
00:55:32.119 --> 00:55:35.280
<v Speaker 2>It was it was pretty obvious what he was involved in.

858
00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:38.280
<v Speaker 2>The worst thing was the two of them kind of

859
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.559
<v Speaker 2>trying to pin on who was responsible for the murder,

860
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:44.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, and if he didn't do a premeditator, which

861
00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:46.920
<v Speaker 2>was kind of a counterproductive because he says it was

862
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:50.280
<v Speaker 2>just an accident, an urge that took over he was possessed.

863
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:53.280
<v Speaker 2>If Fritz in fact had said to him, oh, kill

864
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:55.840
<v Speaker 2>that guy, or get that guy because I want his jacket,

865
00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:58.760
<v Speaker 2>and then if he takes him home, he knows he's

866
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:02.760
<v Speaker 2>going to kill him. So that premeditation, right, Sure, it

867
00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:06.079
<v Speaker 2>wasn't right. So that was a big, big problem with

868
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:09.960
<v Speaker 2>that case. And yeah, and he was not a lawyer,

869
00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:16.760
<v Speaker 2>so I think that it was a mistake. But I

870
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:19.360
<v Speaker 2>don't know where do you go from there? It was

871
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:20.840
<v Speaker 2>bound to be convicted.

872
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:28.280
<v Speaker 5>Yes, you're right. The incredible detail and of course the gruesome,

873
00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:32.119
<v Speaker 5>almost unparalleled crimes that this guy did. At this time,

874
00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:35.480
<v Speaker 5>he said, I had no intention of killing the young

875
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:38.559
<v Speaker 5>people that happened. The boys kept coming back, and I

876
00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:40.800
<v Speaker 5>wanted to protect them from myself. I knew when I

877
00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:45.000
<v Speaker 5>had my tour again, something would happen. Just don't make

878
00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:48.239
<v Speaker 5>me wild all the time. And so he talks about

879
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:51.400
<v Speaker 5>I opened the abdominal cavity with two cuts and put

880
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.559
<v Speaker 5>the intestines in a bucket. Now I could grab the heart,

881
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:57.079
<v Speaker 5>lungs Kidney's cut them up and put them in the bucket,

882
00:56:58.039 --> 00:56:59.920
<v Speaker 5>broke up the skull, the brain went in the buck

883
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:02.800
<v Speaker 5>getting the chopped bones in the LeAnn River. It's so

884
00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:08.840
<v Speaker 5>it's unprecedented, the kinds of things he's testifying to in court,

885
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:12.800
<v Speaker 5>there would be public reaction other than that, the court

886
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:14.880
<v Speaker 5>is filled with people wanting to get in and hear

887
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:18.000
<v Speaker 5>the testimony. What's the public reaction at this time and

888
00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:20.000
<v Speaker 5>tell us what happens the verdict?

889
00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:23.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, of course there are you know, people, there's every

890
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:29.280
<v Speaker 2>type of reaction. They're devastated, there's people that are upset

891
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and stressed, and people that are happy that he's done.

892
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:36.719
<v Speaker 2>It was just amazing. It was kind of the trial

893
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:38.920
<v Speaker 2>of cediary. Really. I guess we hear that a lot,

894
00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:42.159
<v Speaker 2>but for that time period, it was it was amazing.

895
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:44.760
<v Speaker 2>And you can remember too that most of these people

896
00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:47.280
<v Speaker 2>had to be there and be around the court and

897
00:57:47.320 --> 00:57:49.519
<v Speaker 2>in the streets in order to hear what was going

898
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.719
<v Speaker 2>on because there was no other way. It's not like

899
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:54.719
<v Speaker 2>now you can just turn on the TV and watch

900
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:58.480
<v Speaker 2>the coverage. You know. It's it's quite a bit different. Right,

901
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:02.320
<v Speaker 2>So that was it. Well, yeah, so he got convicted,

902
00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:05.760
<v Speaker 2>of course, of all I believe twenty seven of them.

903
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:10.199
<v Speaker 2>The hans Groans got convicted of just I believe six.

904
00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:14.000
<v Speaker 2>It's been a while now, so's he got convicted of

905
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:18.679
<v Speaker 2>just a few of them. But after this, a letter

906
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:23.039
<v Speaker 2>turned up that was apparently written by Fritz and I

907
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:25.119
<v Speaker 2>believe it was, but it turned up and it was

908
00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:28.239
<v Speaker 2>basically he was saying that Hans Gruns had nothing to

909
00:58:28.280 --> 00:58:32.039
<v Speaker 2>do with anything, that it was all him, and that

910
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:35.400
<v Speaker 2>he just said that he did because he was angry.

911
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 2>And so Gronz ended up getting a whole new trial

912
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:45.119
<v Speaker 2>which would take place just over a year later, and

913
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:48.639
<v Speaker 2>he no longer was facing the death sentence with this,

914
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and he actually thought he was going to just get

915
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:57.400
<v Speaker 2>off Scott three, but he ended up getting sentenced to

916
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:03.000
<v Speaker 2>two twelve year sentences to serve concurrently, which he served

917
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.880
<v Speaker 2>in prison, and then he got out and they actually

918
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.480
<v Speaker 2>ended up in a concentration camp until the end of

919
00:59:10.519 --> 00:59:13.280
<v Speaker 2>the war, and then he was released. He went back

920
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to Hanover and he lived out his life there and

921
00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.000
<v Speaker 2>died in seventy five, I believe.

922
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:24.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, so the letter did really help because he was

923
00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:29.000
<v Speaker 5>slated for execution, so it really did work. So you

924
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:29.920
<v Speaker 5>said that after the.

925
00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Pardon it saved his life.

926
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:38.559
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you write about a letter that after the execution,

927
00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:43.159
<v Speaker 5>another letter surfaced. What was the content of that letter?

928
00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Essentially it was the same sort of it was, It

929
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:51.800
<v Speaker 2>was much the same sort of theme. I think that

930
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:58.519
<v Speaker 2>there was a real there's a real guilt that Harmon

931
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:03.559
<v Speaker 2>had and you can sort of understand the wreck how

932
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:09.119
<v Speaker 2>their relationship was, and so it was kind of the

933
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:12.360
<v Speaker 2>same thing. But he sent that I believe was that

934
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:17.159
<v Speaker 2>that letter was the one who went to Hans Grand's father, Albert. Yes,

935
01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:20.880
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, so that was it was much the same,

936
01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:26.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, I saw. That's the most I can remember

937
01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:31.039
<v Speaker 2>about it. He was really kind of trying to help

938
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Hans out.

939
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:38.599
<v Speaker 5>You right, that when he was asked how many victims

940
01:00:38.599 --> 01:00:41.320
<v Speaker 5>he had, it was more than the twenty four that

941
01:00:41.360 --> 01:00:44.480
<v Speaker 5>he was convicted of the twenty seven. But how many

942
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:48.559
<v Speaker 5>did he say? What did he say regarding victims?

943
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, there was one time he said fifty, the other

944
01:00:51.519 --> 01:00:55.920
<v Speaker 2>time it was seventy. I don't think he really knows,

945
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:59.159
<v Speaker 2>to be honest. I think he just sort of did

946
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:02.119
<v Speaker 2>what he did. And he didn't he didn't keep track

947
01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:05.880
<v Speaker 2>because he didn't care about the victim themselves. It was

948
01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:08.719
<v Speaker 2>about what he was getting out of it, right, And

949
01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:13.119
<v Speaker 2>and they and they kept his head too, right, Yeah,

950
01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:18.639
<v Speaker 2>after the convection and execution, they kept his head, uh,

951
01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:22.760
<v Speaker 2>in order to analyze it scientifically.

952
01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:30.480
<v Speaker 5>Right, and what was the reaction or what what did

953
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:32.760
<v Speaker 5>it create in Germany after this as a result of

954
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:38.119
<v Speaker 5>this trial? What was the attitude towards homosexuality then?

955
01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:41.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it was hard uh and and I and I

956
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:43.679
<v Speaker 2>put that in there, and this is a very particular

957
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:45.719
<v Speaker 2>part of it because at the beginning I talked about

958
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Germany in that in that time period, and kind of

959
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:51.239
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the government, the setting, how it

960
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:54.960
<v Speaker 2>was run, because it wasn't like it is now, and

961
01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and kind of the things that were going on with

962
01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:00.639
<v Speaker 2>the with the gay community, so to speak, and how

963
01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:07.039
<v Speaker 2>with the Sexual Institute in Germany they were giving out

964
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:12.159
<v Speaker 2>day passes for trans people or people that were wearing

965
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.199
<v Speaker 2>opposite clothes for their sexuality and stuff so that it

966
01:02:15.239 --> 01:02:18.119
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be arrested. And it was all it was all

967
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:22.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of okay. And within ten years of that, Berlin

968
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:26.000
<v Speaker 2>became kind of a big cabaret festive. It was by

969
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:29.719
<v Speaker 2>drag shows and all of these things going on. Everybody

970
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:32.679
<v Speaker 2>of any stature wanted to see these gay clubs and

971
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:36.000
<v Speaker 2>these gay shows. It was really trendy, and the police

972
01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:38.760
<v Speaker 2>were in'tterresting and it was sort of it was a

973
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:44.119
<v Speaker 2>totally different atmosphere going on with it. So when this happened.

974
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:50.239
<v Speaker 2>It jumped right back into the well, he's a dirty homosexual,

975
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:54.239
<v Speaker 2>homosexuals kill people, they're bad. It sort of connected that.

976
01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:59.000
<v Speaker 2>So there was a huge amount of controversy and talk

977
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:03.800
<v Speaker 2>and fighting old for the forwarding of homosexuals. A lot

978
01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:06.239
<v Speaker 2>of people had the opinion this because we let them

979
01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:09.480
<v Speaker 2>be free, that they're they're killing and they're probably going

980
01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:11.039
<v Speaker 2>to do all sorts of things. They need to be

981
01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:13.000
<v Speaker 2>put away, they need to be arrested. So it kind

982
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:17.320
<v Speaker 2>of there's a little backlash on the community that led

983
01:03:17.440 --> 01:03:21.920
<v Speaker 2>right into the Nazism, which ended up kind of taking

984
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:25.039
<v Speaker 2>over Germany in the thirties. So it was just it

985
01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:29.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of fed right into the whole change in the atmosphere.

986
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:33.960
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, certainly, certainly. I want to thank you very much,

987
01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:37.320
<v Speaker 5>Alan for coming on and talking about Butcher of Hanover,

988
01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:40.840
<v Speaker 5>of Fritz Harmon. For those people that might want to

989
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.960
<v Speaker 5>take a look at your other several other books that

990
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:47.119
<v Speaker 5>you've written and your House of Mystery, tell us a

991
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.199
<v Speaker 5>little bit about House a Mystery radio program, and where

992
01:03:50.199 --> 01:03:51.880
<v Speaker 5>they might look at other books.

993
01:03:53.119 --> 01:03:57.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, my website Alanrwarren dot com has everything. It has

994
01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:02.199
<v Speaker 2>the show, it has all the books, any information, anything

995
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:05.639
<v Speaker 2>to do with me all my social media house and mystery.

996
01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:08.840
<v Speaker 2>We talked to writers and all sorts of genres, from

997
01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:13.280
<v Speaker 2>true crime to fiction to everything. So it's kind of

998
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:16.719
<v Speaker 2>a if you're a writer, you live in mystery, so

999
01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:20.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of follow that. So you know, just go to that,

1000
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:22.880
<v Speaker 2>and of course you know bookstores, Mamazon, Kerry all the

1001
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:23.679
<v Speaker 2>books as well.

1002
01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:28.559
<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, thank you so much, Alan R. Warren Butcher have

1003
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:32.320
<v Speaker 5>handover Fritz Harmon. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

1004
01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:33.280
<v Speaker 5>You have a great evening.

1005
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:37.079
<v Speaker 2>Good night, thank you, good night.