Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen.
Speaker 2: What, What's gonna happen?
Speaker 3: On What?
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, we got a
Speaker 1: bunch of rejects here with us, and we got two
Speaker 1: very very special guests, both returning.
Speaker 2: One we just had on.
Speaker 1: We had I Caker on recently in a while ago
Speaker 1: for the Goatia. We had Jamie poul Lamb on Keep
Speaker 1: It Real. He was one of the few guests that
Speaker 1: actually made me feel completely ignorant on my own show.
Speaker 1: The guy was talking about the Goistia and tying it
Speaker 1: told this stuff, and I was just sitting there like,
Speaker 1: but it was an amazing stuff, and I was really
Speaker 1: happy to get him on again. And I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I gotta get Jamie on again. And
Speaker 1: then I remember, wait, him and ke are actually pretty
Speaker 1: you know, they're close. I was like, I got to
Speaker 1: get them both on maybe.
Speaker 2: And I asked Iiken.
Speaker 1: He was totally down for it, so very very excited
Speaker 1: to have them both here. But before they introduced themselves,
Speaker 1: I'll have a headless let everybody know what's up with
Speaker 1: him and where they can find all his work.
Speaker 4: Well, you're muted this sir, Yeah, muted, how you doing, everybody,
Speaker 4: I'm the Headless Giant. You can find me on Twitter
Speaker 4: and YouTube at the Headless Giant. If you have any
Speaker 4: sort of strange occult experiences, send them to the mail
Speaker 4: bag at Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com and
Speaker 4: we will read those on Thursdays. I also have an
Speaker 4: Alchemy show on Mondays and seven seven seven Alistair Croley's
Speaker 4: Kabala on Tuesdays and on Sundays, I've got the Trialogues
Speaker 4: with Ethan and Ricardo, so check those out.
Speaker 1: Thank you, oh, thank you, sir, and we got gin
Speaker 1: what is going on?
Speaker 5: What is a boss? Mister ninety three? So I'm Jina Ninja.
Speaker 5: I I have a show called Threshold Saints, which I
Speaker 5: call serial Experiments and speculative ontology, so it's about the
Speaker 5: metaphysics of reality obviously. Yes, I use a lot of
Speaker 5: kabala and special special shout out to Ike for hooking
Speaker 5: me up with that contact. I really appreciate that was
Speaker 5: major for me, so thank you so much. Ike, and
Speaker 5: of course Jamie, I've shouted you out many times on
Speaker 5: the show and my show just for kind of blowing
Speaker 5: me away and humbling me in a big way as
Speaker 5: the I often call myself the rising hodelike Prince of Kabala.
Speaker 2: You made me feel.
Speaker 5: Much more a student that I should have probably approached
Speaker 5: it as. So thank you so much for that. And
Speaker 5: if you want to check me out, check me out
Speaker 5: at Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints on I G and X,
Speaker 5: or my personal account at wucom, Reborn to a Uko
Speaker 5: and G Reborn Threshold Saints dot substack dot com, as
Speaker 5: well as the True Gray Lodge dot com. And of
Speaker 5: course Matt Mura is our webmaster for that as well
Speaker 5: as runs our YouTube channel, so that is our group
Speaker 5: show and I'm dropping in an episode with Greg k
Speaker 5: today in the Hour of Saturn, so watch out for that.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, guys, appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you for jumping on. I appreciate it, sir.
Speaker 1: And we got the branch.
Speaker 6: What is going on any guys.
Speaker 7: It's a pleasure to be here. So that Shalom and.
Speaker 8: I do spaces with Jen and Matt usually every Friday
Speaker 8: on x Twitter, So if you guys want to catch
Speaker 8: us on there and interact, that's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 7: We've been doing that for weeks now.
Speaker 8: Matt then uploads a lot of those episodes to YouTube
Speaker 8: to check out The Gray Lodge on YouTube if you
Speaker 8: want to check out our catalog of our spaces, and
Speaker 8: of course Threshold Saints.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 7: It's a great show and there's been some recent releases.
Speaker 8: Like you said, so check it out. I really like
Speaker 8: it too because you can drive while you're listening to Spotify,
Speaker 8: you know. So anyway, thanks for being here with me,
Speaker 8: and I appreciate the invite.
Speaker 1: Of course, no, glad you could make it. And we
Speaker 1: got Matt Moore. What is going on, sir, glad you here.
Speaker 9: Happy to be here again. So Matt Mura you can
Speaker 9: find me always as at Matt Mora nineteen. That's on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, Twitch,
Speaker 9: maybe some other places I don't know. And there's also
Speaker 9: my website that's Cabala dot com k A A B
Speaker 9: A l a h dot com. A lot of cool
Speaker 9: stuff there. I'm doing tart readings now because I'm working
Speaker 9: on a cool little project. So I mean I always
Speaker 9: did them, but now I'm more focused on them. So
Speaker 9: if you're interested being a beta tester, just let me
Speaker 9: know the m me in any of these platforms.
Speaker 6: And yeah, very nice way to start the year.
Speaker 2: Let's go.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, and I guess, and thank you mad
Speaker 1: for jumping on. I know it's where are you right now? Well,
Speaker 1: you're in Brazil at this point, right, yeah, in Brazil
Speaker 1: now as you're starting a cult out there or something
Speaker 1: or what?
Speaker 2: Uh not?
Speaker 6: I mean not saying it publicly? What do you mean.
Speaker 9: If I if I would start one, I wouldn't say
Speaker 9: it publicly?
Speaker 7: Uh?
Speaker 1: All right, I guess as guess wise how I started
Speaker 1: off with the Ike first? Hei, Please sir, let everybody know.
Speaker 1: For the new listeners or people just never didn't hear
Speaker 1: the other episode yet, please let them know who you are.
Speaker 1: What's up?
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me on. This was great. I
Speaker 3: was really excited when you asked me to talk with Jamie.
Speaker 3: It's been a minute and it's always just so much
Speaker 3: fun to chat with both of you. Actually, everybody here.
Speaker 3: I had a really good time last time we were on.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm Ike Baker, I guess first and foremost,
Speaker 3: I would have to say that I've I'm an author.
Speaker 3: I wrote Etheric Magic and a Formless Fire. I have
Speaker 3: a book coming out this year with Inner Traditions called
Speaker 3: Esoteric Mythology. I host the Arcanum podcast and YouTube channel.
Speaker 3: I have scholars, practitioners, lots of people on the pod.
Speaker 3: It just entered its third year, so check me out there.
Speaker 3: I also do a documentary style presentations on esotericism, the occult,
Speaker 3: loss of e, et cetera. And my background is uh
Speaker 3: Masonic historian, temple chief and adept of the Hermetic Order
Speaker 3: of the Golden Dawn under the Ciceros, and Martinism a
Speaker 3: bunch of other fun stuff, but yeah, just a general,
Speaker 3: a general real enthusiasm for occult is a mesotericism primarily magic.
Speaker 1: Very nice, Thank you very much, Sake. I appreciate having
Speaker 1: you back on Andy. Last, but not least, Jamie, please
Speaker 1: let everybody know what your deal is when they can
Speaker 1: find all your amazing work.
Speaker 6: My name is Jamie Paul Lamb. I think I've got
Speaker 6: a delay, Like when I look at my picture, it's
Speaker 6: like I go like this and then it's like five
Speaker 6: minutes or no, it's like a three. I don't know.
Speaker 6: It's just is my voice matching my no?
Speaker 1: But you answered pretty quick, so obviously the audio Oh okay,
Speaker 1: the audio sounds good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, anyway, Jamie Paul Lamb. My website is j A
Speaker 6: I M E. P A U L L A m
Speaker 6: B dot com and I'm an astrologer. I'm a freemason.
Speaker 6: I'm in some other orders and groups of Golden Dawn
Speaker 6: Order and a Rosicrucian Order, and and I just had
Speaker 6: a book come out on inner traditions called the Astrological
Speaker 6: Goesha seventy two Keys to Angelic and Demonic Astrology that
Speaker 6: came out, and I want to say August of twenty five,
Speaker 6: so you can get it now. And yeah, basically, I'd
Speaker 6: like to direct people to my website. I've got all
Speaker 6: sorts of offerings on there and a blog that I
Speaker 6: need to do better about keeping up to date, and
Speaker 6: I plan on writing some more stuff in the future.
Speaker 6: But I want to say it's a pleasure to be bad, Nick,
Speaker 6: thanks so much for asking me. I always a pleasure,
Speaker 6: everybody else. Great to see you again or to meet
Speaker 6: you this time, and uh, really looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 1: No, definitely, it was a blast having you all last time.
Speaker 1: I actually felt so bad. I felt like I really
Speaker 1: didn't have much to say because you blew my mind
Speaker 1: and I really just was like I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to say to this. I think kind of felt like.
Speaker 6: That's what you're saying that and Jin said that, and
Speaker 6: now I'm feeling bad, Like I came on and I
Speaker 6: was like, you know, I had to be a jerk
Speaker 6: or something.
Speaker 2: You did.
Speaker 1: You did exactly what I wish my guests would do more.
Speaker 2: So thank you.
Speaker 5: It just I think it kind of blew our minds, Jamie,
Speaker 5: Like how it's you've You've basically I told this to
Speaker 5: live so it's no surprise to anyone here. But I
Speaker 5: mean you pioneered, like this was great work that you've
Speaker 5: like basically you know, put into the public sphere. So
Speaker 5: it's kind of incredible and is if you're a magician
Speaker 5: or I think you are, you look at it in awe.
Speaker 2: So I think that's what it was.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate that absolutely. I would not have written.
Speaker 3: I would not have written a single word if I
Speaker 3: hadn't read some of your books first.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 3: I mean that's actually what got us in touch, if
Speaker 3: you remember. So I was just so blown, blown, completely
Speaker 3: blown away. But yeah, and your work is getting better
Speaker 3: every day, man, every release is uh, you know, developing
Speaker 3: that style and that that way to communicate stuff like
Speaker 3: a good teacher.
Speaker 6: Oh you're making me blush.
Speaker 1: Well good, you got to do Yeah, you can't tell exactly. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: all right, so Jamie, maybe so you stop blushing, we'll
Speaker 1: put the spotlight on you. When it comes to astrology,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about astrological magic. I guess you know,
Speaker 1: the evolution of astrological magic or astrology. What is that
Speaker 1: even to you? Astrology astrological magic.
Speaker 6: So yeah, let's take each of those terms. Right. Astrology
Speaker 6: you could say, is the well simply, you could say
Speaker 6: the study of meaningful time. Right, that's a good clean
Speaker 6: way to put it. Another thing is to say, you know,
Speaker 6: astrology means a certain thing. When we say astrology, we're
Speaker 6: talking about something particular. It's not like, uh, you can't
Speaker 6: call you know, star stellar omens and things like that
Speaker 6: necessarily astrology. When we talk about astrology proper, I think
Speaker 6: we're talking about uh, planets in science, in houses and
Speaker 6: how they're how they aspect each other.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: So there's some elements of astrology that are that make
Speaker 6: it astrological, right, I mean it's a Hellenistic sort of invention, right,
Speaker 6: and you know, taking bits from Mesopotamian proto astrological omenic. Uh,
Speaker 6: auspices and things like that, and they're electional and their
Speaker 6: mundane sort of proto astrology, and then mixing that with
Speaker 6: the Egyptian inheritance of of you know, time keeping, the
Speaker 6: the calculation or the consideration of the decans on the horizon,
Speaker 6: and the very notion of the ascendant, you know, and
Speaker 6: using that horoscop post to later to cast a figure
Speaker 6: or charter. So yeah, and then the magical part, I think,
Speaker 6: you know, that's something that I was hoping we would
Speaker 6: because it's misty where that where that kind of begins, right,
Speaker 6: the astrological magic, because you could say these sort of
Speaker 6: since we know that in the Acadian through the Babylonian
Speaker 6: Mesopotamian complex of cultures, there at least they were using
Speaker 6: electional astrology when to do things and mundane astrology. So
Speaker 6: if they're electing when to do something, then wouldn't that
Speaker 6: be sort of a magical because you're you're sort of
Speaker 6: you're sort of harnessing the cosmic momentum of a certain
Speaker 6: configuration in the planetarily or you know, zodiatically or otherwise
Speaker 6: and bringing that bringing that down to a terrestrial operation,
Speaker 6: you know, which I think is it's got to be
Speaker 6: astrological magic, even though it's proto astrological, I don't know,
Speaker 6: well a little misty.
Speaker 3: I think I'll just attack on there. I think the
Speaker 3: minute you use any kind of technique two uh you know,
Speaker 3: so divining or ascertaining and delineating uh, the you know,
Speaker 3: fate and fortune so on and so forth. You know,
Speaker 3: the thiros, the the the auspicious timing. That's one that's
Speaker 3: astrology proper, I think in the study of that science.
Speaker 3: But when you when you use a technique to try
Speaker 3: and alter or change or influence that or buttress against
Speaker 3: in fortune or or or misfortune, I think then it
Speaker 3: can for me it's magic at that point.
Speaker 6: M Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. So, yeah, when we
Speaker 6: see things like the making of amulets or talismans or
Speaker 6: things like that, or even you know, setting up apotropaic
Speaker 6: objects that you know, we know they did that on
Speaker 6: you know, thresholds and things like that, and the essentially
Speaker 6: the equivalent of like what would think of as like
Speaker 6: voodoo dolls or something. They had little figures that they
Speaker 6: would create at certain times that would be imbued with
Speaker 6: that sort of stellar influence or planetary influence, which right
Speaker 6: that Yeah.
Speaker 9: If I may mention something as well that I remembered
Speaker 9: there a guy in Brazil that he studied a lot
Speaker 9: of the like let's say folk magic. I'm going to
Speaker 9: use this term guys and how they approach things and
Speaker 9: so on. And what he would do is, because he
Speaker 9: was into kabbala, he would go to the little sessions
Speaker 9: going on and write down everything that was asked for
Speaker 9: the person, like you've got to go through this place,
Speaker 9: like the cross place, and then you've got to you know,
Speaker 9: get those ingredients and so on, and around that time
Speaker 9: do that thing. And then he wrote it down, and
Speaker 9: then afterwards he checked the correspondences and the astrology and
Speaker 9: those would match, like he would be a proper like
Speaker 9: castrological magic. But the person doesn't necessarily new that because
Speaker 9: they were just getting told what to do, you know.
Speaker 9: The the nentity or whatever would come and say like, hey,
Speaker 9: go do this to solve your problem, and then they
Speaker 9: would go and do it. So it's very nice and
Speaker 9: understanding as well that even if you don't necessarily know
Speaker 9: exactly the bits of what you're doing, it still will work.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I you know, I was thinking I was thinking
Speaker 6: about you when this crossed my mind earlier about how
Speaker 6: of course there's you know, in Greek the word magic.
Speaker 6: We know that they parse it out a little better
Speaker 6: than we do in English. You've got thometurgy, you've got
Speaker 6: the urgy, you've got tele steky, you've got uh teletie.
Speaker 6: You know initiation to go is show magic or whatever.
Speaker 6: But what do you what do you think in terms
Speaker 6: of like say, like an astral religion like Mythriism or something,
Speaker 6: or or Hermetism. We know that there's at least that
Speaker 6: pimander like component of an assent anagoge or something would
Speaker 6: it be? And and you know this source Shiro better
Speaker 6: than I do. Do you find anything where it's like
Speaker 6: astrological teletie or you know, or where they would definitely
Speaker 6: you like in the Asclepias the god making stuff, right,
Speaker 6: is that astrological? Or do we just see things like
Speaker 6: like the Discourse on the eighth and ninth with the
Speaker 6: no I mean it clearly says.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's I would say that the from from
Speaker 3: the Hellenistic period forward, right, So for I don't want
Speaker 3: to insult anyone's intelligence, but just in case, like you're
Speaker 3: you're you just got into this stuff. The Hellenistic period
Speaker 3: is right around three thirty two in Egypt when Alexander
Speaker 3: the Great conquered it brought the Greek stuff there. And
Speaker 3: really modern astrology, or let's say, the precursor or the
Speaker 3: template for modern astrology, as as consisting of the planets, signs, houses,
Speaker 3: and aspects, those four parts that first appears. Now similarly,
Speaker 3: you have really the first concrete record of of of
Speaker 3: what we would consider modern theurgic ceremonial UH and the
Speaker 3: you know, the bringing together of all the various colors incenses.
Speaker 3: We have a very good record of that kind of
Speaker 3: stuff from that period. I would say that from the
Speaker 3: outset UH in that period it's it must be it
Speaker 3: had and there you know, also including the technical harmtica
Speaker 3: and the philosophical harmtica, there's always a planetary component because
Speaker 3: even when you're even when you're doing UH emsycosis right
Speaker 3: in souling an object, even when you're doing that, the
Speaker 3: intermediary the sort of the distance to be spanned the
Speaker 3: let's say, you know, I don't know if it's Aristotelian
Speaker 3: or what, but that that chain of causality, that chain
Speaker 3: of flow always has to through the firmament you know,
Speaker 3: through the through down, through the planets and and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. So I would say there's a very very
Speaker 3: strong emphasis throughout the traditions. Uh, you know, even some
Speaker 3: of the pseudo Aristotelian stuff and pseudo Alexandrian stuff that
Speaker 3: they listed the Pika Trix, right, the Pika Trix says, okay,
Speaker 3: I am I, I collected the work from these guys,
Speaker 3: these ancient Greeks. He's constantly talking about. You know, it
Speaker 3: was it was pseudonymous. It wasn't actually Aristotle talking about
Speaker 3: you know, uh, or at least we don't think it is.
Speaker 3: Scholars don't think it was.
Speaker 4: But what I if I could pop in there real quick.
Speaker 4: So at the oracle at Delphi, the appearance of the
Speaker 4: constellation Lyra would signify the coming or going of Apollo,
Speaker 4: the deity that would speak through the pythia at the
Speaker 4: at the temple. So they they certainly had a connection
Speaker 4: to the times of the year coming through these different
Speaker 4: constellations and the spiritual properties of those constellations. So you know,
Speaker 4: part of the year Apollo would be there, and then
Speaker 4: other gods would come in and start speaking through the pithea,
Speaker 4: like Athena and Poseidon, so yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when Apoula was a big one because especially okay
Speaker 3: Lira right, that means the harp or the lyar, and
Speaker 3: so he it was actually him sitting at his celestial
Speaker 3: celestial throne above the cosmos playing the tune that the
Speaker 3: muses were then singing on the spheres you know that
Speaker 3: that orbited the Earth. So that's yeah, he would have
Speaker 3: a very very big part in that kind of thing
Speaker 3: as well. But yeah, I think I'm I mean, I'm
Speaker 3: convinced that it was even he Amblicus talks about it.
Speaker 3: He talks about it like he will sort of barage.
Speaker 3: And Greg Shaw did an amazing article on this. If
Speaker 3: anybody wants to get a hold of it, I'll send
Speaker 3: it to you. He sort of disparaged the use of
Speaker 3: astrology specifically for sort of telling the future, but he
Speaker 3: did emphasize its necessity in theurgic you know, an agogay assent,
Speaker 3: so he was saying like, yeah, we use it for this,
Speaker 3: not this type of thing. But again, you know, I
Speaker 3: love v Amlicus. I don't think he's the end all
Speaker 3: be all about theorgy, And I think Porfyrey had some incredible,
Speaker 3: incredible insights that had very different brains.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's interesting that whole exchange. Well, you know, letter
Speaker 6: to an ebo and the mystery to mysterious. But yeah,
Speaker 6: so I guess that's part of the thing, is like,
Speaker 6: do we call it astrological magic if they're using it
Speaker 6: to ascend through the seven planetary spheres at each of
Speaker 6: which they would you know, maybe take on a virtue,
Speaker 6: give up advice up or down, you know, an and
Speaker 6: a basis, a katabasis, you know it. I guess since
Speaker 6: we're talking about astrological magic, do we want to limit
Speaker 6: that to purely like talisman making or things that you
Speaker 6: actually need to cast a full election for, you know,
Speaker 6: you have to fully cast a chart for that, just
Speaker 6: like natal astrology. Using magic. In natal astrology, which I
Speaker 6: do a lot for people, is you know, i'd get
Speaker 6: maybe the lord of their year, you know, the planetary
Speaker 6: lord of their year, like what perfection they're in, which
Speaker 6: is a time lord technique, and I would get the
Speaker 6: the lord of the house that they're in for that year,
Speaker 6: and then I would maybe set them up with some
Speaker 6: sort of synthemata or you know, the appropriate colored candle
Speaker 6: signatures and tokens in the in the terrestrial sphere, the
Speaker 6: appropriate color candle, the appropriate incense, the appropriate musical mode
Speaker 6: like a church mode, plagal or an authentic mode, and
Speaker 6: you know, the appropriate image maybe to set up and
Speaker 6: setting up a rudimentary little altar for that deity for
Speaker 6: that year, so they could and whether they whether they
Speaker 6: sort of interface through the archangel of the planet, through
Speaker 6: the planet itself sort of, or through the you know,
Speaker 6: Greco Roman entity associated with that planet, or the Mesopotamian
Speaker 6: or Egyptian entity, or however they choose to interact, you know,
Speaker 6: whether from a pagan perspective, Abrahamic perspective. I mean, you
Speaker 6: can kind of work around all of that syncretically, right,
Speaker 6: But yeah, so that's something I definitely call astrological magic.
Speaker 6: But we also, you know, a big thing and I
Speaker 6: think this brings in the Neoplatonic thing, but also the
Speaker 6: Haranian thing much later the Sabians of Herah. Is this
Speaker 6: astral religion which is like you know, which is so teiological.
Speaker 6: It's self effic as has something to do with the
Speaker 6: the condition of the soul and the soul's you know,
Speaker 6: existence beyond death, so and the state of the soul.
Speaker 6: It's cleanliness, it's orderliness, whatever. So do we call that
Speaker 6: astrological magic? That's that to me? I guess in the
Speaker 6: loosest sense we do, because it has to do with
Speaker 6: the celestial sphere and also events on the Earth that
Speaker 6: are tied to that through chains or seer or whatever.
Speaker 6: And you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think I think we well, first I want to
Speaker 3: just mention this and then kind of pivot Chris Warnock,
Speaker 3: who you know, we both know, he has said that
Speaker 3: he has, in his opinion, the Sabians of Iran had
Speaker 3: the most sophisticated and complex techniques for astrological magic. So
Speaker 3: I think that situates them squarely in that tradition. But
Speaker 3: you know, at least to his mind. But I would
Speaker 3: say the main issue, right, okay, So like we defined
Speaker 3: astrology pretty succinctly, so what needs to be said about
Speaker 3: magic is that it's a bracket term that everybody uses differently,
Speaker 3: or I would say almost everybody will have some shade,
Speaker 3: some flavor of difference in their definition. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you ask somebody who just joined I don't know, a
Speaker 3: wick and coven and somebody who's been in the Golden
Speaker 3: Dawn for three weeks, and then you talk to some
Speaker 3: solo practitioner, I don't in the forest in Germany who's
Speaker 3: been like reconstructing PGM spells for thirty years or whatever. Like,
Speaker 3: They're all going to have a different idea of what
Speaker 3: magic is. And so much of it is really in
Speaker 3: the phenomenology. It's in the actual experience of doing the
Speaker 3: ritual and then the way that the universe speaks back
Speaker 3: to you and and you know, you get to test
Speaker 3: and see your results. Uh. But I would say, yeah,
Speaker 3: to Jamie's point, we're talking about magic as distinct, let's
Speaker 3: let's let's you know, I like the Greek sort of
Speaker 3: wealth of terminology, but maybe let's let's let's boil it
Speaker 3: down for the sake of making it manageable in a
Speaker 3: conversation you have. And this comes down to, you know,
Speaker 3: uh what really Skinner was the guy who set this
Speaker 3: in motion, uh with with his techniques of Greco Egyptian magic.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: That was his his doctoral thesis. And he starts saying, yeah, well,
Speaker 3: you can't call everything in here magic because to him,
Speaker 3: religious stuff stuff that we're talking about, the analogic stuff like,
Speaker 3: for instance, for him, the Mythris liturgy, right, and this
Speaker 3: this this kind of vision of assent uh and the
Speaker 3: the sort of taking in of the race of Helios
Speaker 3: that we find in the myth or so that for him,
Speaker 3: for Skinner, it's not that's not magic. Magic for him
Speaker 3: is is different. But I would say that we have
Speaker 3: magic as a technology or a techne. It's a craft.
Speaker 3: Magic is a technology. You can use it for sorcery.
Speaker 3: You can use it for conjuration, you can use it
Speaker 3: to commune with with angelic forces or elemental forces. But
Speaker 3: I would say that on the simplest kind of poll
Speaker 3: you have, let's let's maybe talk about it in in
Speaker 3: like in a Grippin context, you have elemental or natural
Speaker 3: magic that a lot of that is what's going to
Speaker 3: be more familiar to Wickens and two and to people
Speaker 3: that are more I would say, of a nature based
Speaker 3: sort of thing, you have uh, you know, celestial magic,
Speaker 3: which I think goes both works both ways, and then
Speaker 3: you have you know, I would I would include divine
Speaker 3: the divine magic, obviously incorporating the celestial because that's kind of,
Speaker 3: so to speak, analogically, how you get there. That's that's
Speaker 3: theurgic uh in nature, which is you know, for me,
Speaker 3: theogy can be defined as not just God working. But
Speaker 3: let's say a more practical definition could be, And you
Speaker 3: tell me if you agree with this, the technology of
Speaker 3: magic applied to spiritual assent, or let's say, the evolution
Speaker 3: of the soul.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think as differential differentiated from something
Speaker 6: like theoria, which is just contemplative, right, So as opposed
Speaker 6: to being this contemplative philosophical exercise, theogy could, I think
Speaker 6: be considered because of things like synthemta and symbola, which
Speaker 6: are signatures and tokens, and these these correspondences and virtues,
Speaker 6: as a gripple would say, in the in the sub
Speaker 6: lunary sphere where we are the earth and the elements
Speaker 6: and things. But yeah, theorgy making use theogy as a techne,
Speaker 6: making use of these these sort of possibilities through the
Speaker 6: chain of being, you know. And maybe that's something that
Speaker 6: I think's worth talking about is all of these people
Speaker 6: from the ancient Greeks and you know, the hell the
Speaker 6: Hellenistic period, all the way through the medieval Perso Arabic,
Speaker 6: the Renaissance, particularly people like Ficino and Agrippa after him.
Speaker 6: All of these people are making use of a chain
Speaker 6: and ike you were just kind of talking about it
Speaker 6: a few minutes ago. How you know, things sort of
Speaker 6: if we're working with the gods, let's say they're beyond
Speaker 6: the fixed stars in the zodiac. They're beyond the firmament,
Speaker 6: the canopy of the stars. So when we're dealing with them,
Speaker 6: we're trying to theoretically, particularly we're drawing down so we
Speaker 6: have to have sympathetic resonant sort of attractors down here,
Speaker 6: depending on what which chain or series or seer i
Speaker 6: that we're that we're operating with. So typically you go
Speaker 6: through each of the seven visible planets, the ancient's new
Speaker 6: seven planets that were visible, and they called the Luminari's
Speaker 6: planets as well, the luminaries being the Sun and the Moon.
Speaker 6: They're considered planets because their planet there they wander, They
Speaker 6: don't follow the fixed stars in the zodiac. They move
Speaker 6: against that canopy, in fact, in the other direction. So
Speaker 6: that's that's Plato's the different and the same, you know anyway,
Speaker 6: But but you so you figure out what the operation is.
Speaker 6: I think this is definitely worth talking about. This is
Speaker 6: astrological magic one on one. This is bedrock. Here is
Speaker 6: like you figure out what operation you want to do.
Speaker 6: And let's say it's a love you're making a love talisman.
Speaker 6: You want somebody to fall in love with you. Clearly
Speaker 6: you go through Venus, right, Goddess of love, of aphrodity,
Speaker 6: ishtar or whatever, and and you So for me, I
Speaker 6: use the color green, which is a queen scale golden
Speaker 6: dawn thing. I just like the color green for Venus.
Speaker 6: And it's like the the the you know, copper turns
Speaker 6: green when it's exposed to the air or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. So So then you would use the appropriate
Speaker 6: like frank concense is one you can use, in fact,
Speaker 6: the orphic hymns I think for for venuses, frankncense, green candle,
Speaker 6: maybe a green altar cloth. You might use rose. Petals
Speaker 6: are nice for a couple of reasons, because roses are Venusian,
Speaker 6: but also petals themselves are Venusian. They're the Venusian part
Speaker 6: of the plant, you know, whereas the thorns would be
Speaker 6: the marshall part, and if there's any berries they would
Speaker 6: be the Jubiterarian part. The sap would be solar that
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. So so you you stack
Speaker 6: all these symptomata or synthemata, and that attracts that that
Speaker 6: engages that chain, that that golden chain, you know, that
Speaker 6: that connects you're going through Venus to these sort of
Speaker 6: idea of Venus, the form of Venus beyond the fixed
Speaker 6: stars in the zodiac. This any attic sort of for
Speaker 6: this noetic Venus, Right, it's just like Plato's forms are
Speaker 6: up there, they're intellectual sort of entities.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 6: So, and you're using this planet Venus as sort of
Speaker 6: an intermediary. And uh, just as the sun is considered
Speaker 6: like the heart in man, the sun is like in
Speaker 6: between this this noetic sun, this no etic light and
Speaker 6: and man's heart, which is the sun inside of man.
Speaker 6: And you know, so there's this meso cosmic activity that's
Speaker 6: that's planetary. And I think that's important to say, is
Speaker 6: like when you do an astrological magical operation, you're engaging
Speaker 6: whatever chain that is depending on the want or need
Speaker 6: of the magician here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I think an important part in that
Speaker 3: that probably most people don't even need to know. But
Speaker 3: I'd say, if you're if you're working like me in
Speaker 3: in a bit of a little bit more of a
Speaker 3: neo platonic or theogic milieu. Yeah, you the plant, the
Speaker 3: planets themselves, the physical you know, the mundane spheres of
Speaker 3: the planets are technically considered the bodies of the gods.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: This is one of the sticking points that Porphyry has,
Speaker 3: you know, or at least ostensibly he has with with Iamlicus.
Speaker 3: He writes to him and he basically says, you know, okay,
Speaker 3: so spiritual beings aren't supposed to have bodies. Things that
Speaker 3: have bodies are are lower on the totem pole. So,
Speaker 3: I mean a diamond has like an ethereal body. So
Speaker 3: you're telling me that that if if if a god's
Speaker 3: body is the planet, then it's got to be lower
Speaker 3: on that scale than a diamond. And the Anloch just
Speaker 3: kind of collapse back, and he's like, we are tethered,
Speaker 3: our souls are tethered to our bodies. They're not in
Speaker 3: that position. They move their bodies intellectually from afar. So
Speaker 3: it it's yeah, it's very much so like a physical
Speaker 3: and actual mundane grounding point that that that noetic intelligence
Speaker 3: of the god is like at a distance, you know, uh,
Speaker 3: setting to order. And I think that that's that's a
Speaker 3: huge part of talking about this is talking about how,
Speaker 3: you know, the main thing, even even working with something
Speaker 3: in like like the Hermetic text. The main reason why
Speaker 3: there's this preoccupation with astrology in magic is because it's
Speaker 3: it's literally it is the being of the cosmos. It
Speaker 3: is the wheelwork of existence. And you know, I've said
Speaker 3: it before, the ancients didn't have digital clocks, they didn't
Speaker 3: have wall clocks. You know, it was you know, you know,
Speaker 3: all the way all the way back. Let's say in prehistory,
Speaker 3: you'd go outside, what determines like whether or not you
Speaker 3: should stay awake or go to sleep. Where the sun is,
Speaker 3: what determines whether or not you should keep warm or
Speaker 3: take you know, take layers off. Where the sun is,
Speaker 3: you know, what determines whether or not like the tide
Speaker 3: is going to swell and you may drown the moon.
Speaker 3: So all of the apparent causality, it appeared to them
Speaker 3: to be all up there, like so this gigantic machine
Speaker 3: could be viewed in motion and we could see its
Speaker 3: effects here. So that's that's you know, I think that
Speaker 3: that's really really important also for grounding. For grounding, I
Speaker 3: think that the person is trying to wrap their head
Speaker 3: around astrology and magic is getting them into that that
Speaker 3: worldview of understanding, like you know, they were looking at
Speaker 3: they were trying to observe, like why is this stuff changing?
Speaker 3: Why are these patterns existing? And we could go and
Speaker 3: do a whole side tangent about the underlying why, you know,
Speaker 3: But I think I think a better kind of pivot
Speaker 3: would be maybe this I'd like to ask Jamie, like,
Speaker 3: if I have it right, sort of the astrological practice
Speaker 3: really starts with omenik and mundane astrology in ancient Iranian region,
Speaker 3: correct Mesopotamia?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, they had like regal astrology. Basically the astrology
Speaker 6: wasn't for individuals. It was it was for the king
Speaker 6: and for the kingdom. You know, it was a royal
Speaker 6: art that was you know, used specifically for that. It
Speaker 6: didn't become sort of natalized, you know, or individualized until
Speaker 6: the Hellenistic era. In fact, I want to say the
Speaker 6: first chart that we have is like four to ten
Speaker 6: BCE is the first the first nativity that we found,
Speaker 6: a Hellenistic nativity. So you know, one thing though that
Speaker 6: you were you made me think of that. I like
Speaker 6: this idea of the demonstrable causal effects of the planets
Speaker 6: and that being something that clearly that the ancient saw
Speaker 6: and definitely informed some of their early conception of astrology,
Speaker 6: or at least domanic proto astrology. There's also there's also
Speaker 6: this idea of the moon throughout astrology being the distributor.
Speaker 6: And I love this idea and it's something that I
Speaker 6: think even astrological magicians sometimes, you know, definitely at their
Speaker 6: peril avoid you know, is the importance of the moon
Speaker 6: in a chart, whether like let's say, like my example,
Speaker 6: before you're working on a venus talisman or something. If
Speaker 6: that moon is waning, then the love is waning. You know,
Speaker 6: the position of the moon and the condition of the
Speaker 6: moon is really important. And simply because bringing Aristotle back
Speaker 6: into it and told of me uh through him. But
Speaker 6: how when when that effluence and I never use the
Speaker 6: word energy here because it's metaphysical, it's not physical. We're
Speaker 6: talking about metaphysics here, not physics, when that effluence is
Speaker 6: coming down through the seven planetary sphere and taking on
Speaker 6: its coloration at each of those or it's it's accretions,
Speaker 6: just like a human soul does when it comes down
Speaker 6: through the spheres. Uh. See the myth of her Or
Speaker 6: et cetera. At the at the sphere of the moon,
Speaker 6: the sub lunary sphere, the moon herself, she's the nurse
Speaker 6: of the Earth. She's the distributor, she's the dispenser of fortune.
Speaker 6: Down here, she's she's the you know, fastest moving planet
Speaker 6: air quotes uh and and she distributes. So it's very
Speaker 6: important that no matter what what the operation is, whether
Speaker 6: it's a wealth jubiterarian thing, whether it's a mite Mars thing,
Speaker 6: aggression or some you know, war bellicost sort of operation,
Speaker 6: whether it's transportation, communication, mercurial, whatever it is, you want
Speaker 6: the moon to be. You want the moon to reflect
Speaker 6: that operation symbolically. You know, if you're giving up smoking,
Speaker 6: you want a waning moon. You know, like tobacco is
Speaker 6: ruled by Mars. So if you have Mars in a
Speaker 6: bad you know, a bad placement for Mars and you
Speaker 6: have a have a waning moon, that might help you,
Speaker 6: you know if along with other factors, that might help
Speaker 6: you to create a talisman for non smoking. Just off
Speaker 6: the top of my head, something like that. But that's
Speaker 6: the basic nuts and bolts, Jamie.
Speaker 4: A good example is the orphic hymns you could find
Speaker 4: in there they're talking about blessing these rights. So in
Speaker 4: a lot of ways you could see the orphic hymns
Speaker 4: gig a part of this sort of magic, and they
Speaker 4: describe exactly what you're talking about with the different gods, goddesses,
Speaker 4: planets all together sort of being sug about in a
Speaker 4: way that is supposed to be a blessing of the
Speaker 4: rights that they're performing.
Speaker 6: So for sure, yeah, yeah, I use them all the
Speaker 6: time that Thomas Taylor once all the pretty mu which
Speaker 6: every operation I do, I use those.
Speaker 3: And and the thing is too, you know, in the
Speaker 3: according to that the ancient rationale, the sub lunary sphere
Speaker 3: is the only thing that can change, you know. So
Speaker 3: it's it's that's everything else is is entirely ordered and unerring.
Speaker 3: Even though they have you know, retrograde motion and it's erratic,
Speaker 3: it's still predictable. But but everything under the from the
Speaker 3: moon down is what is acted upon. But yeah, you
Speaker 3: look at you look at like uh Lily, you look
Speaker 3: at Lily's uh you know, I think Book two of
Speaker 3: Christian Astrologies, all his horrory stuff. Uh, he's got this
Speaker 3: thing that we used in the Golden Dawn. We use
Speaker 3: Lily's considerations before judgment when you look at a horror
Speaker 3: and the main thing that he's driving home is like,
Speaker 3: you know, Nick and I swear, oh yeah, don't do
Speaker 3: any don't read this chart. If the moon is fucked,
Speaker 3: you know, like like it's like if you're if you're
Speaker 3: trying to do electional or horrory. And and he's got
Speaker 3: the via combusta. I think the general thing is like,
Speaker 3: if the moon or or if the moon or or
Speaker 3: the you know, the planet the lord of the significator
Speaker 3: is between fifteen degrees of scorpio and libra, don't do anything.
Speaker 3: But really the main emphasis in his considerations is, uh,
Speaker 3: is the moon. And I've always found that interesting. Uh
Speaker 3: two kind of tack I guess, tack on a little
Speaker 3: bit to what HG.
Speaker 6: HG.
Speaker 3: Wells up there as was saying, was, uh, you know, they,
Speaker 3: particularly in theogy, they looked at they looked at Hakate
Speaker 3: as the goddess, the triform goddess of magic, of magic,
Speaker 3: and she was a central central she was the main
Speaker 3: god god or the deity for the you know, the
Speaker 3: the the particularly the late antique theogists al Gai Susdavini's
Speaker 3: he talks about that quite a bit, and they corresponded
Speaker 3: to her. They corresponded her to the moon, like the
Speaker 3: you know, the not just the dark moon, but the
Speaker 3: moon in all of her aspect, because she's triformed, so
Speaker 3: that that's always been God. There's always been an interesting
Speaker 3: interface for the Moon for me.
Speaker 6: I have a quick sorry, I yeah, she's in the oracle,
Speaker 6: the Albean oracles, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, she's the formless fire actually that they talk about.
Speaker 5: Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt there. I have a question,
Speaker 5: I guess for both Jamie and Ike if you can
Speaker 5: feel that however you want. It's a bit normy question
Speaker 5: because obviously I look from Asia, like obviously Tondraic Buddhism
Speaker 5: and Taoism, and like East Asian sort of ontology is
Speaker 5: much more concretely than anything. Then I'm not really familiar
Speaker 5: with the Greek stuff, as I've told like many times. So,
Speaker 5: but you know, how do Jamie, how do they reconcile
Speaker 5: the later sort of mogalized Persian texts that include the
Speaker 5: Nine Luminaries of like the Artarviodas, like including Rahu Katu.
Speaker 5: How is there a way to reconcile that like with
Speaker 5: Western magic or without necessarily including the the outer three,
Speaker 5: or I'm very comfortable using the outer three, like I
Speaker 5: like Uranus for Rahu and Katu is obviously Neptunian in
Speaker 5: a way, and so I'm comfortable doing that, but some
Speaker 5: people are not. Is there like a way that either
Speaker 5: of you sort of reconcile those cosmologies? And I think
Speaker 5: it also ties in with the moon of course, because
Speaker 5: you know, so many of the systems use that nine
Speaker 5: planetary model or at least the kind of idea, and
Speaker 5: like I brought up the sub luninary like changing that world, well,
Speaker 5: definitely the ysoda or the moon is definitely the place
Speaker 5: for reconciliation, rectification and like bringing things together, you know,
Speaker 5: come off the sun.
Speaker 2: You could say.
Speaker 3: Yes, go on, no, please go Well I was was
Speaker 3: gonna say, I don't, I don't if we're talking like
Speaker 3: Rahu ketu type of thing that now we're I feel like,
Speaker 3: correct me if I'm wrong? Are we getting into uh
Speaker 3: the Vedic terminology for that stuff.
Speaker 5: So I I practice contric astrology, so it's very different.
Speaker 5: It's much closer to like suffer yes ora, Like it's
Speaker 5: more you're the planetary bodies or the Grahas, the Graspers,
Speaker 5: they're really in a cosmological position of like minor arcons,
Speaker 5: is how we would understand it. So there are ways
Speaker 5: to appease them, or in some cases, like the more
Speaker 5: deeper into tentre that you go, whether Indian or Buddhist,
Speaker 5: there are ways to completely clear negative planetary charts, as
Speaker 5: I've heard I talk about in the more Hellenistic terms before.
Speaker 5: So yes, it is the North and South, not to
Speaker 5: the moon. But they actually are considered like luminaries, like
Speaker 5: they're considered to be in the physical sky. They're just
Speaker 5: shadow planets, and so I think you can liken them
Speaker 5: also to the outer thro the two of the outer
Speaker 5: three that I mentioned. But I also you have to
Speaker 5: kind of understand like how they work with certain deities,
Speaker 5: because only certain there's very few deities that can clear
Speaker 5: Rahu Katu. Rahu particularly loves to be both Venus and
Speaker 5: Shawnee or Saturn, like he loves to pretend to be
Speaker 5: those two things, because those are very densifying kinds of planets,
Speaker 5: like to bring things into material reality, and Katu loves
Speaker 5: to be both. Ioway think of it as like Hessaid
Speaker 5: and Va, but Mars and Jupiter because Mars is like
Speaker 5: the annihilating flame, right, so he likes to bring people
Speaker 5: there so they kind of annihilate, because that's what KATU's
Speaker 5: real desire is to get out of the form.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't I would say this. I don't work
Speaker 3: with the the Vedic or the Joe Tisch model. I'm
Speaker 3: not familiar with. It's it's not I've I've found that.
Speaker 3: I I have found what I need in in the
Speaker 3: the Western model of seven planetary spheres or seven planets,
Speaker 3: eight eight spheres, nine depending and the the I would
Speaker 3: say predominantly Western model of ascent. What you're talking about
Speaker 3: sounds very fascinating, But I'm interested to know if Jamie's
Speaker 3: got a little bit more footing in that world.
Speaker 6: Well, I know Rahu and Kattu as far as I know.
Speaker 6: I'm no expert on j Otis or Vedic astrology, but
Speaker 6: I recognize them as the lunar nodes, and I don't
Speaker 6: know them any other way. But the lunar nodes in
Speaker 6: you know, Hellenistic astrology, in traditional astrology, let's say, all
Speaker 6: the way through to the Elizabethan Hero with lily Is,
Speaker 6: the lunar nodes are essentially you might say the north
Speaker 6: lunar node turns up the volume. It's sort of a
Speaker 6: not a predominator, but it kind of it increases. It
Speaker 6: tends to increase, whereas the south lunar node tends to decrease.
Speaker 6: So if you have a planet conjunct the the Jupiter,
Speaker 6: let's say, Jupiter conjunct the North node, it's going to
Speaker 6: turn up the Jupiter vibes a little bit, you know,
Speaker 6: to put it colloquially, whereas the South note is going
Speaker 6: to turn down the volume on that planet's expression. Now,
Speaker 6: of course that's tempered by other things. If you get
Speaker 6: Jupiter in cancer where he's exalted, then you know, and
Speaker 6: you got the and he's conjunct the north lunar node,
Speaker 6: you're going to get Jupiter to the max pretty much,
Speaker 6: you know. So it's like there's other factors. And then
Speaker 6: you got aspects to look at, you know, and you
Speaker 6: got his despositor to look at, and is he you know,
Speaker 6: in aspect to his despositor. There's just a million things.
Speaker 6: You could literally drive yourself crazy, and you know, so
Speaker 6: that's one thing, but then there's and you could drive
Speaker 6: yourself crazy with elections, like I want to elect a
Speaker 6: good time to brush my teeth. You know, I got
Speaker 6: to elect a good time to leave the house, or
Speaker 6: I'm fucked. Everything's my whole life is ruined, you know,
Speaker 6: Like you know, I could see if it's a wedding
Speaker 6: or a job interview, but some people get into the
Speaker 6: weeds where it's like, you don't need to elect for that, man,
Speaker 6: I mean, you're gonna be okay.
Speaker 9: And even sometimes if you do elect, things will happen
Speaker 9: and then you have to reschedule, like let's say, for
Speaker 9: a job interview or something you elected, and then it
Speaker 9: gets to the time the guys have to reschedule for
Speaker 9: whatever reason.
Speaker 3: So you should be able to see that in the
Speaker 3: chart though, yeah, yeah, yeah you should. I've done a
Speaker 3: bunch of election all over the last couple of years,
Speaker 3: and you do drive yourself nuts. But here's the comforting thing,
Speaker 3: and this is how I look at the the Also,
Speaker 3: this is how a lot of like somebody like Jamie
Speaker 3: who does astrology professionally full you know, uh to for
Speaker 3: what I would consider to be like full time for
Speaker 3: somebody who's now retired. But they're gonna approach it way
Speaker 3: differently than me. I know, because I've driven myself nuts
Speaker 3: so many times, like you, limitations are actually good. Limitations
Speaker 3: are good because what they do is they subordinate this
Speaker 3: kind of lust that we have for You know, if
Speaker 3: you're trying to do a magic ritual and elect elect
Speaker 3: for something, you you obviously have a lot of skin
Speaker 3: in the game, You've got a lot, You're in it.
Speaker 3: You know, you're invested, You're you're doing a ritual for it.
Speaker 3: But that those those sort of impediments and those those
Speaker 3: uh inhibitions to you getting exactly what you want, I
Speaker 3: think are actually a good thing. They leave right because
Speaker 3: part of magic is learning how free will and determinism
Speaker 3: uh intersect, and I think that they can really really
Speaker 3: benefit each other free will without any any four walls
Speaker 3: around it. We know what that turns into, you know,
Speaker 3: so I think that's really important. That's why the moon
Speaker 3: is really I look at the moon, the lord of
Speaker 3: the ascendant, the lunar and or the the north and
Speaker 3: south nodes will normally tell me something to do with
Speaker 3: a lot of times in this horrory thing, the beginning
Speaker 3: and the end of the matter, uh, and and how
Speaker 3: it's going to start, you know, that kind of meme,
Speaker 3: how it started and how it's going type of thing
Speaker 3: along with the symphony of other information. So there are
Speaker 3: also like really really major detractors from from being able
Speaker 3: to you know, if I have you know, a significator
Speaker 3: who's whose uh you know, rulership is or whose lord
Speaker 3: is is Jupiter and he's afflicted, I'm gonna wait, uh
Speaker 3: and and and again. Sometimes that can be a good thing.
Speaker 3: So I would, you know, I would encourage people that
Speaker 3: are interested in particularly like electional and horrory, like you know,
Speaker 3: you gotta be okay with with getting what you can get,
Speaker 3: you know, and making the best out of that.
Speaker 2: Well, I agree, I feel go on, go ahead, Jim.
Speaker 6: I feel like we kind of left jin the Restigen's
Speaker 6: question unanswered, which was, uh, what that had to do
Speaker 6: with maybe the lunar mansions? Then Chatras was set.
Speaker 2: Appreciate it.
Speaker 6: Yes, you see, pretty Yeah, there's there's heavy use of
Speaker 6: those in the Picka tricks. You've seen the lunar mansions.
Speaker 6: They're they're really big in the Perso Arabic tradition. Now,
Speaker 6: a lot of I don't know if you know this,
Speaker 6: but a lot of the Coots and the Veda Christrology
Speaker 6: comes from a document called the yavana Jadica. Have you
Speaker 6: heard of that?
Speaker 5: I have that this is the strong part of my
Speaker 5: knowledge basis rather than anything Hellenistic or even like the
Speaker 5: Hellenistic astrology at all.
Speaker 2: So that's sort of why I like, yes, I agree
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 6: What I was going to say was was you know
Speaker 6: more Hellenistic Christrology than you think, because the Avantajadica is
Speaker 6: the is to say, it's the basically the nativities of
Speaker 6: the Greeks is what the word means. So it's they
Speaker 6: when they learned how to navigate the Red Sea, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, for trade, and they went to the Indian subcontinent,
Speaker 6: they brought a document called the Avana Jadica, which was
Speaker 6: Hellenistic astrology at that time, and that that sort of
Speaker 6: informed there the existing lunar mansion based NOx Chatra proto astrology.
Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden, you know, vedach astrology
Speaker 6: has the angles, the the ascendant and descend it the
Speaker 6: m C and the ic the kentron, you know, so
Speaker 6: there's if you look when they talk about the deccans
Speaker 6: and the angles and stuff like that, these are essentially
Speaker 6: Indianized transliterations of of Hellenistic astrological Greek terms you know
Speaker 6: that that it's very like whatether they call the deccans again,
Speaker 6: it's like decnas or Dreknas or something like that. It's
Speaker 6: it's basically the deccans and the and the kentrons, which
Speaker 6: are the steaks. The angles are called like kendra or
Speaker 6: something like that. So it's so it's you. I'm just
Speaker 6: saying this to tell you, you know more Hellenistic astrology.
Speaker 6: Then you think if you know giotitischer rada christrology, because
Speaker 6: it's really an importation of Hellenistic Christrology. I mean, other
Speaker 6: than they're no chatras, they're lunar mansions, which who knows
Speaker 6: how they shared those with the Persians the person Arabic tradition.
Speaker 5: No, I appreciate that, Jamie. I know there's a lot
Speaker 5: of borrowing. There's a lot of syncretism. I mean, TNTRA
Speaker 5: is all about syncretism. Now I don't practice, Joe Tisha.
Speaker 5: I didn't mean to like misarticulate that if that's like
Speaker 5: I implied that I only tantric astrology, I understand, and
Speaker 5: I always say that what is that? So it's found
Speaker 5: in it's basically in all the higher yoga texts. They
Speaker 5: all have their own sort of cosmological ordering, cosmological understanding
Speaker 5: and cosmological.
Speaker 6: Magic and so like tree Luke de Soir, like you
Speaker 6: can look at the.
Speaker 5: Shre vigitechts or the color chakra is a very famous
Speaker 5: one from Burson Archive, and he taught they have a
Speaker 5: whole section on how it has its own section on
Speaker 5: cosmological magic, the or not culture not sorry, chakra Samvara
Speaker 5: Guya garba guya Samaja. All of these basically, like all
Speaker 5: contract texts, basically have their own sort of cosmological and
Speaker 5: then ontological solutions for those cosmogical problems.
Speaker 6: Well, that's interesting. Email me some stuff, would you sure?
Speaker 2: I'd love to cool. Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask. It's kind of
Speaker 1: a very basic question, but I even just bringing it
Speaker 1: up for even some of the listeners that really don't
Speaker 1: know what goes along with like ritual magic as well,
Speaker 1: when you're talking about I mean, I guess as we
Speaker 1: go along with astrological magic.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Probably also the same thing for me from my experience
Speaker 1: with planetary or elemental we were talking about the moon
Speaker 1: a lot before. For me, depending if it was waxing
Speaker 1: and waning would also determine what I'm doing it because
Speaker 1: of the invoking of banishing. Would you also apply that
Speaker 1: type of idea to the way you guys would normally
Speaker 1: do your work with the stuff?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would do. I do invo invo any
Speaker 3: vocations in the waxing period the only time I will
Speaker 3: use the dark moon for something like that. Uh. And
Speaker 3: I use the full too, I know, I know a
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of like the solomonic stuff says
Speaker 3: in the Waxing and you see it in the PGM
Speaker 3: two in the wax thing, I used the full. I
Speaker 3: find it. There's there's nothing wrong with the Full. But
Speaker 3: in the dark the only and the only sort of
Speaker 3: interface that I'll work with in the darkest hit Kata
Speaker 3: because it's just a different aspect of for you know,
Speaker 3: the morethonic. She's not, She's not entirely sonic. I think
Speaker 3: people get get the wrong idea about k Kata being
Speaker 3: a an exclusively cothnic goddess. She oscillates, she encompasses all
Speaker 3: of them. But but for the most part, I will
Speaker 3: I'll only do avocational or invocational ceremonial in the waxing period.
Speaker 2: I not to derail You're like.
Speaker 5: About Hecate, but I think that you might actually find
Speaker 5: this interesting. There's a grouping of Nitya goddesses. So these
Speaker 5: are the sixteen or sometimes they're fifteen, sometimes they're seventeen,
Speaker 5: depending on whether it's a what text it is. But
Speaker 5: they're a grouping of Dikini goddesses from Central India. But
Speaker 5: they're also found in obviously Newari and to Ven Buddhism,
Speaker 5: and they represent the phases of the lunar cycle specifically,
Speaker 5: like they it's different forms. It's not just like one goddess,
Speaker 5: it's like all the number of the they're called the Daughters,
Speaker 5: but they're related to obviously the grouping of Matracas, which
Speaker 5: are sometimes said to be the Pleiades, but sometimes they're
Speaker 5: also said to be the Big Dipper or the Little Dipper,
Speaker 5: again depending on the texts.
Speaker 3: Cool. I like the.
Speaker 6: I think in speaking of the pleats, there's I think
Speaker 6: in Chinese astrology they're called the seven Chicken Sisters. If
Speaker 6: I'm which I always thought was super cool. I wonder
Speaker 6: what that story is.
Speaker 5: You know, I only know the Buddhist story, Ja Jamie,
Speaker 5: but I well, I will definitely research it after you
Speaker 5: bring it up.
Speaker 2: Now that you've said it, Yeah, I do have one.
Speaker 6: I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 3: Wait can I can I just derail the conversation for saying.
Speaker 2: I was?
Speaker 3: I just I don't know. I feel like I want
Speaker 3: to share this with our audience because it's a really
Speaker 3: important piece of information. I recently found out that in
Speaker 3: the ebers Papyrus, which is an Egyptian medical papyrus, that
Speaker 3: right the a proctologist was the the the translation for
Speaker 3: the title they gave a proctologist was guardian of the Anus.
Speaker 3: And I just think everyone should know that. I just
Speaker 3: wanted to I wanted everybody to have that and use it,
Speaker 3: you know, use it in your magic.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 6: That's that's actually super interesting, and it's timely for me
Speaker 6: because I had a visit recently. Really, you know, I'm
Speaker 6: getting to be of that age now. I don't want
Speaker 6: to get into detail, but I was a little worried
Speaker 6: at the visit because the practologists had both of his
Speaker 6: hands on my shoulders. Oh, I was like and I
Speaker 6: was like, I was like, what is that your your
Speaker 6: wedding ring? And it's like, no, it's my watch. He said,
Speaker 6: I love you.
Speaker 3: I love you, I love doing anything with you.
Speaker 9: Watch you know, this made me think of an actual
Speaker 9: question now about like how to how do you guys
Speaker 9: use the strugley in the medical sense of let's say,
Speaker 9: applying the connections between the house sign and planets whatever
Speaker 9: to the parts of the body or to elect like
Speaker 9: if I'm electing a surgery or whatever medical operation, because
Speaker 9: I'm pretty sure they used the lot before, but like
Speaker 9: nowadays in the West, it's completely disregarded. Right, but uh, Christian,
Speaker 9: if you guys ever worked.
Speaker 3: With this kind of thing or research, Jimmy, you want
Speaker 3: to take a stab at that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So melothesia, right, Melothesia is an ancient doctrine.
Speaker 6: It's actually pre Hellenistic. This is a Mesopotamian doctrine that
Speaker 6: it's called the zodiacal man and basically aries is the
Speaker 6: top of the head. Uh, Taurus is the Arias is
Speaker 6: the whole head. The neck sort of area is Taurus,
Speaker 6: and then you know, Gemini are the arms, and cancer
Speaker 6: is the sort of chest and basically all the way
Speaker 6: down to the feet which are Pisces the two fish.
Speaker 6: You know, So the the zodiac just goes down the
Speaker 6: body and then the the planets are actually they're like
Speaker 6: organs in the body. So for the planets, I think
Speaker 6: Venus is the liver or no Venus is the kidneys
Speaker 6: and the basically genitalia. Mars is the gall bladder and intestines.
Speaker 6: I think, Uh, Saturn is like the skin and bones
Speaker 6: and spleen. Uh. Jupiter is the liver and the blood
Speaker 6: because he's sanguine. I don't quite remember all of them,
Speaker 6: but you see where I'm going with that. So the
Speaker 6: so the planets are the organs and the zodiac. The
Speaker 6: belt of the zodiac is the length of the human
Speaker 6: body from areas at the head to pisces at the feet.
Speaker 6: And you when you're looking at a figure or a chart,
Speaker 6: you would look at maybe the sixth house to see
Speaker 6: for health and wellness and illness and things. I would
Speaker 6: look first at the sixth house, maybe the condition of
Speaker 6: the lord of the sixth house. If the sixth house were,
Speaker 6: you know, on the zodiac sign of say of say Scorpio,
Speaker 6: it would be the privates area, you know. And if
Speaker 6: you had, say Mars in Scorpio where he's the ruler
Speaker 6: of Scorpio, you could say that you have well, you
Speaker 6: could say that you have swelling or redness in the
Speaker 6: generals or something like that or heat, you know, so
Speaker 6: it's a yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty and
Speaker 6: plus that moves around with perfections too, which is my
Speaker 6: favorite time lord system, So where each each year of
Speaker 6: life is a different house, you know, and basically you
Speaker 6: just go around the wheel your whole life. You know,
Speaker 6: it's different each time. And and and that that also
Speaker 6: moves your sixth house, you know what I mean, because
Speaker 6: if you're treating your perfected house as your first house
Speaker 6: that year, you know, that moves your sixth house into
Speaker 6: different regions of the body. And then when you have
Speaker 6: planets there, those are the organs you know, and how
Speaker 6: how they're Oh, somebody who's asking about the hermetic lots
Speaker 6: part of spirit spirit as an accurate representation for the yes,
Speaker 6: I could see the part of spirit just to answer
Speaker 6: aeros up real quick as people have associated that with
Speaker 6: the personal dimone. But I like, look into Ibn Sina
Speaker 6: and no, I'm sorry. Ibn Ezra and Masha La. Ibn
Speaker 6: Ezra and Masha La have the most rigorous technique of
Speaker 6: finding the the personal Dimone. It's really involved, though. You
Speaker 6: got to put each of the planets in the five
Speaker 6: highlegal places it's too technical for this, but it's it's
Speaker 6: really cool and I think it's the most decisive method
Speaker 6: of finding the personal diamond. Sorry for that digression.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean my my my background in in that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff actually is in Chinese medicine.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: So the way that I will apply it, I actually
Speaker 3: have a very i'd say a rich or a full
Speaker 3: practice uh applying sort of astrological herbalism, uh in the
Speaker 3: form of tinctures or or topicals, things of this nature, tease,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Working much more in a homeopathic which like
Speaker 3: cures like type of type of model. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: I'm always looking at I'm a little bit of a hypochondria.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure I've sent Jamie like charts about questions
Speaker 3: of my health and stuff before. But I'm always looking
Speaker 3: at like six House transits and stuff like that to
Speaker 3: see what's going on and even you know, Lord of
Speaker 3: the Sixth, like, what's going on there, How's how's that
Speaker 3: planet being aspected? What's going on there, what's applying there,
Speaker 3: what's separating there. But astrological herbalism has been I would say,
Speaker 3: like the last maybe like year has been really really
Speaker 3: big for me. We're putting together. My fiance and I
Speaker 3: are are co author in a book called The Astrological
Speaker 3: Gardener's Companion, and that's uh, that's gonna come out probably
Speaker 3: at the end, I don't maybe the beginning of twenty
Speaker 3: twenty seven. Maybe I don't know, but yeah, it's that.
Speaker 3: That's usually how more so how I will approach it.
Speaker 3: And then there's also certain uh preperations, like phylactory preparations,
Speaker 3: were like, I'll this is more of a PGM technique,
Speaker 3: but I will use the I would say a more
Speaker 3: uh uh, I use the sun for healing. Okay, so
Speaker 3: I'm looking at what's going on solar solar wise, but
Speaker 3: I will consecrate a What I'll do is I make
Speaker 3: an ink. I have a recipe for making ink out
Speaker 3: of myrrh and gum Arabic and uh natural colorations. I
Speaker 3: will write out like a healing either something from the
Speaker 3: Psalms or something or from the Gospels, and I'll write
Speaker 3: that in at the peak of that uh that election
Speaker 3: in that in that time period, and I will roll
Speaker 3: it up and I keep it in these little you
Speaker 3: can get them for like eight dollars on Amazon. They're
Speaker 3: like these little screw top uh, sorts of I'll see
Speaker 3: if I can grab one and show it to you
Speaker 3: in a minute. But it's just this little screw top
Speaker 3: container and they come in these really some of them
Speaker 3: come in really cool designs, like a mine's got a
Speaker 3: uh like that Greek kind of like tessellated that that
Speaker 3: border design on it, and you just slipped that in
Speaker 3: there when you're feeling ill, you know, with this consecrated talismanic.
Speaker 3: You know, you've prepared the ink, You've written it out
Speaker 3: and sort of I sing it out as I write
Speaker 3: it over and over like a mantra, and then I'll
Speaker 3: hang it around my neck until I feel better.
Speaker 6: Nice, very cool, that's good stuff. Yeah. I love the
Speaker 6: tincture making process. In fact, I've got a venus tincture
Speaker 6: going right now in it's in the it's been in
Speaker 6: my broiler, the salts after the uh the U. I
Speaker 6: extracted the the sulfur in the mercury, so the issue
Speaker 6: and the alcohol fisheric.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I have the I have a.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I have the salts in the broiler right now.
Speaker 6: They've been under there so every time I cook something,
Speaker 6: because it's so hard to get them white. It's so
Speaker 6: hard to get white salts without a torch. I don't
Speaker 6: have a torch. Yeah, I got them.
Speaker 3: I've got the burner that gets up to two hundred
Speaker 3: thousand BTUs. It's like the only way to do it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I gotta get I gotta get better gear.
Speaker 2: What so what what?
Speaker 3: What's what's your plant material that you're using, damiana or I.
Speaker 6: Used rose petals for this venus one beautiful Yeah, and
Speaker 6: I used I used universal vegetable mercury, i e. Grain alcohol,
Speaker 6: because how much alcohol are you going to get out
Speaker 6: of you know, probably forty rose petals, not a ton.
Speaker 6: But uh so you have to use I mean it's
Speaker 6: still same kingdom, same mercury.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So I think it's perfectly back to a lot of
Speaker 6: alchemists would have used. They would have used brandy long ago.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's just just yeah, but uh but yeah, that's
Speaker 6: all I mean. Paracelsis using that for using astrology for
Speaker 6: his his spajarch making. I think it's a yeah, and
Speaker 6: then using that in the in the medical astrolog yatro
Speaker 6: mathematics in the medical context, I think is uh. I
Speaker 6: think it's really great. I mean, of course, as a
Speaker 6: professional astrologer, though you got to be careful because you
Speaker 6: tell people, oh, just don't worry about it, go take
Speaker 6: this tincture, you know, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: you know, somebody's somebody's heart falls out their ass, and
Speaker 6: and then you're you're on the on the hook or somehow,
Speaker 6: you know, their mom's like, their mom's like, uh, you've
Speaker 6: made my son's heart fall off his ass.
Speaker 3: That is not guardian of Vianus stuff. Okay, that's not
Speaker 3: being a guardian of the as If hearts are falling
Speaker 3: out of it, then we're in trouble.
Speaker 1: Well, oh, just real quick, I just want to be
Speaker 1: a shameless plug here. You guys might actually be interested
Speaker 1: in it. But next Friday, I do have something I
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting. I cover like, you know, magical herbs,
Speaker 1: you know, the stuff that we would normally think, you know,
Speaker 1: that we use in witchcraft or ceremony magic, and I
Speaker 1: have the effects of them on our cranial nerves. Some
Speaker 1: actual real interesting stuff with that, to tell you the truth,
Speaker 1: some of them are like nerve. Well, some of them
Speaker 1: it's like what it's kind of known to do magically.
Speaker 1: It's almost like all right, it's actually kind of recreating
Speaker 1: that in your body with in inhaling it it's hard
Speaker 1: to explain, but some of them we kind of see like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, all right, it's interesting for sure.
Speaker 3: It doesn't sound that hard to explain. I've inhaled marijuana before, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: So Errosid I have a show on Mondays where we're
Speaker 4: talking about spajerics and making them whatnot. But it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 4: She was talking about a Venus love spell I guess
Speaker 4: Jupiter over our heart and relying on her finger related
Speaker 4: to Leo and the Night House of Venus or something.
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2: One question.
Speaker 1: I also say, oh, sorry, yeah, we just asked this
Speaker 1: question too real quick, and I'm pretty sure that I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get like, probably not the best idea, but from
Speaker 1: like my experience, and I didn't do too much esological magic,
Speaker 1: but when I did, I like kind of use the
Speaker 1: hexagram ritual. I'm assuming you guys probably don't even I mean,
Speaker 1: would that be something you'd still use now for that
Speaker 1: type of work or is there like bigger things that
Speaker 1: you've moved on to, like other rituals that would be
Speaker 1: better for that.
Speaker 3: I I like the hexagram, but I won't I don't
Speaker 3: think it's you gotta first of all, you got to
Speaker 3: use the hexagram, do a full at the very least,
Speaker 3: do a like work with every planet, like three or
Speaker 3: four times with the hexagram.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then you got to see its effects because it's
Speaker 3: it's got a it's got a very it has a
Speaker 3: very like a general kind of thing. If you're just
Speaker 3: if unless you have a really really specific thing that
Speaker 3: you're doing, it will it's kind of like this three
Speaker 3: For me anyway, it's this three sixty effect where like
Speaker 3: I didn't necessarily intend for this to happen, but it's
Speaker 3: it's related and et cetera, so on and so forth.
Speaker 3: I would say it's situationally appropriate. I like, I I'm
Speaker 3: not for something like that. I'm I'm pulling from the PGM,
Speaker 3: even though I have I have kind of blended both
Speaker 3: of them before. I just don't find that it's necessary
Speaker 3: to use the hexagram for for stuff like that. I
Speaker 3: think it can also interfere. I I like it when
Speaker 3: I'm making traditional talismans out of a specific material with
Speaker 3: the squares and the you know, the sigils and stuff
Speaker 3: straight out of Agrippa and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: That's when I'll I'll use the hexagram. I find that
Speaker 3: that combination is really well. That's how I learned how
Speaker 3: to consecrate talents exactly, the hexagram.
Speaker 1: Yeah, same thing.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, I thought like, it's kind of like I can
Speaker 1: think getting into depth as.
Speaker 2: You guys are.
Speaker 1: I don't even know if i'd suggest the hexagram, I
Speaker 1: just feel like that would I don't know this would
Speaker 1: be the best. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's like, what are you trying to what are you
Speaker 3: trying to make me do? Quit?
Speaker 6: It's so like involved, yeah.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I'm sorry now I interrupted somebody for that,
Speaker 1: so go ahead.
Speaker 2: Was that branch?
Speaker 5: No, I just wanted to say that astroerbalism. At least
Speaker 5: you guys are speaking, I can understand that language.
Speaker 2: At least.
Speaker 5: I think that's really interesting. I feel like there's a
Speaker 5: lot of first principle experimentation that people can do with
Speaker 5: herbs to understand planetary natures, because obviously there's a direct
Speaker 5: one to one relationship as long as you know the
Speaker 5: planetary metal content of whatever herb you want to reduce
Speaker 5: or make into incense. Incense is a good one for
Speaker 5: normies rather than go full on sporagic. I think I
Speaker 5: don't know if you guys have any idea thoughts on
Speaker 5: that or commentary.
Speaker 6: What are you using Culpepper or like cunningham sterble.
Speaker 2: I'm very familiar with both.
Speaker 5: I'm also familiar with a lot of the Chinese sort
Speaker 5: of like tax on, like the planetary natures as it
Speaker 5: relates to TCM Herbs. I also speak Mandarin, so that
Speaker 5: obviously helps me a little bit in that endeavor. And
Speaker 5: then I'm familiar with like the Garuda Piranha, which listen
Speaker 5: in ara Vedic context with the Grajas and also the
Speaker 5: Tarviadas in themselves lay out a kind of like astromedicalism.
Speaker 2: It's very rudimentary.
Speaker 5: I'm sure Jamie you'd probably find it like very Oh
Speaker 5: you'd be like, oh, this is just derived from like
Speaker 5: the you know, Mughal ice Arabic text, but you know
Speaker 5: it's a it's something.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean I wrote a book uh Etheric magic
Speaker 6: on Llewellen and uh, I think there are a lot
Speaker 6: of those principles, like in terms of the energy work
Speaker 6: and stuff like that. Is is any of that pertinent
Speaker 6: to what we're talking about here?
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, yeah, there's there's there are there's
Speaker 3: like A I gotta well go ahead.
Speaker 6: Sorry, I was gonna say, only because you know, I'm
Speaker 6: I don't know anything about any of that.
Speaker 3: I would say that, like, so, there's there's tons of
Speaker 3: work on what they call like plant energetics and planetary orbology.
Speaker 3: I you know, I do have a little bit of
Speaker 3: an issue with right. I had to I had to
Speaker 3: call it etheric energy or you know, I had to
Speaker 3: talk about energy work. This is the only thing I
Speaker 3: have recourse to in order to be able to explain
Speaker 3: this stuff and to be able to make it a
Speaker 3: little bit more tangible. I'm not certain that it is.
Speaker 3: I like I and I say this in the book.
Speaker 3: I say it when I give presentations. I'm using energy
Speaker 3: almost as like a it's just a place place marker.
Speaker 3: I would say, we don't really know entirely what it is,
Speaker 3: but we do know. I really liked the term that
Speaker 3: you used, effluence.
Speaker 2: I really like that.
Speaker 3: But I would say that the the way that I
Speaker 3: think a Western kind of ceremonialist, let's say, somebody that
Speaker 3: came through the Golden Dawn or derivative traditions, the way
Speaker 3: that they're really gonna be able to understand a lot
Speaker 3: of that stuff is in is in the cataalistic tree
Speaker 3: of life. Like I had to rely on that as
Speaker 3: well because it maps onto the body as a microcosm,
Speaker 3: and so you can I also find like I started
Speaker 3: off in jaiz En meditation and certain Vedic practices that
Speaker 3: are kind of similar to Kundalini, and just working with
Speaker 3: with the midline. It's it's good, I think in terms
Speaker 3: of purifying and sort of condensing this energy and et cetera,
Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. But once you break
Speaker 3: it out into those three pillars of the tree of life,
Speaker 3: or really once you get to like further levels, you're
Speaker 3: you're working with five pillars right in the microcosm one, two, three,
Speaker 3: four five. That's at a certain point in Golden Dawn work,
Speaker 3: you're working with five pillars in the sphere of sensation.
Speaker 3: It broadens it up for magic because every one of
Speaker 3: those things is corresponded to a planet, you know, a
Speaker 3: zodiacal constellation and element every part of that tree. So
Speaker 3: it really broad it up for me in terms of
Speaker 3: a magical scheme. Man, you could you could totally work
Speaker 3: that kind of planetary uh you know, I guess energetic system,
Speaker 3: but you you know, you're gonna need to like memorize
Speaker 3: a bunch of correspondences. I don't know how many people
Speaker 3: want to do that, but I know if you, if
Speaker 3: you come through that sort of trajectory and that training
Speaker 3: like you, you probably already have it.
Speaker 9: Yeah, one thing I may say, and then I'll have
Speaker 9: to jump out. It's pretty amazing to see when, for example,
Speaker 9: I did work with other people on some energetic like
Speaker 9: pathworking or like going out their tree and whatever, like
Speaker 9: if I was studying and helping them go and feel
Speaker 9: for themselves, and when they describe what they're seeing or
Speaker 9: feeling and so on, and it matches completely like the correspondences.
Speaker 9: So even if they don't know that, it matches just
Speaker 9: because you know they're feeling and they're trying to explain
Speaker 9: with their own words. Somebody that does understand can do
Speaker 9: the the match in. It's so so nice and reaffirms
Speaker 9: the how that works. Right, So it's pretty fain cool, Yice,
Speaker 9: Thanks about for the chat, Thanks about everyone that watches
Speaker 9: them from here and uh you in the next one.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks General branch Hell did you want to it's.
Speaker 7: Gonna I do have a question that Jin's welcome to
Speaker 7: go ahead of me if he likes.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Josh, you're being so nice to me and deferential.
Speaker 5: We're all equals in the Great Lodge. Just for the record,
Speaker 5: I'm not the boss, but you know he's he's maybe
Speaker 5: he's doing a bed. I don't know, Jamie, I have
Speaker 5: I have a quick question for you. You sort of
Speaker 5: discussed this last time, and it's directly related to your
Speaker 5: astrocoetic book. So when you uh started doing like because
Speaker 5: you mentioned that you use the tarot for like part
Speaker 5: of that working, So you explained like how you would
Speaker 5: use certain tarot cards to represent Obviously, certain astrological conditions
Speaker 5: are couplistic sort of associations for getting into taro, Like
Speaker 5: I understand the tree in my own way, in my
Speaker 5: own ton tric way, and I am a big diagnosed this.
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan of dcs David hym Smith Heimsmith
Speaker 5: excuse me, sorry, and so I've read all his books,
Speaker 5: and I've also read like Romic and stuff, But I
Speaker 5: don't come at it from like a necessarily hermetic perspective.
Speaker 5: So when I'm now trying to learn a little taro,
Speaker 5: at least in its application to the tree, So what
Speaker 5: would you recommend for me or maybe someone who's less
Speaker 5: familiar with the tree to get into Taro met like,
Speaker 5: do you like tom Berg or is there something like it?
Speaker 2: Whatever you like?
Speaker 5: I just want to I'm curious. I would like to
Speaker 5: learn whatever you do, because obviously I respect it highly.
Speaker 6: If we're I mean, for for me, I can't think
Speaker 6: of a book like a Terot book that it was
Speaker 6: like a one great book. And I've told people this
Speaker 6: over the years, and I stand by this. It's like
Speaker 6: there is no just nobody could just sit there and
Speaker 6: write it out in a book and get I mean,
Speaker 6: I think it's how you approach that symbol set. It's
Speaker 6: what you It's the other things in your life, you know.
Speaker 6: It's are you familiar with how the divine liturgy works?
Speaker 6: Are you familiar with a Catholic Mass? Are you familiar
Speaker 6: with rudimentary Kabbalah? Do you know are you good with mythology?
Speaker 6: Do you know Renaissance history? Do you know courtly heraldic symbolism?
Speaker 6: Do you know you know a little bit of alchemy?
Speaker 6: You know, it's when you start to know these when
Speaker 6: you start to develop those modes of interpretation, when you
Speaker 6: start to develop a hermeneutic toolkit is when is when
Speaker 6: I think when you could really act it. Do you
Speaker 6: know Pythagorean numerology for example, you know when you think
Speaker 6: of one, is it the monad?
Speaker 2: Is it you know?
Speaker 6: Is it the tohn or you know? And is the
Speaker 6: diad evil to you? Is it this you know, indefinite diad?
Speaker 9: You know.
Speaker 6: So there's there's all these all these I think tangential
Speaker 6: things that inform I guess the more you know, the
Speaker 6: more you can sort of get out of the taro.
Speaker 6: I don't know if that makes a whole lot of sense,
Speaker 6: but reading a book on Tara like Tomberg. I've read
Speaker 6: tom Berg, and you know, I'm uncomfortable with continental correspondences
Speaker 6: like he uses like Levy. I'm I'm just better with
Speaker 6: Golden Dawn correspondences. I think they're neater. I think they're tighter.
Speaker 6: And yes, there's a couple of transpositions there, but uh,
Speaker 6: it's nothing I'm you know, worried about. And it's and
Speaker 6: it's the language that we speak. So there's the other
Speaker 6: thing when we talk about and I know you're a cobbylist,
Speaker 6: when we talk about the gras tree or this tree
Speaker 6: or that tree, I think we all agree pretty much
Speaker 6: on the kurture tree, and I think we all pretty
Speaker 6: much agree on the Queen color scale, just if we're
Speaker 6: talking generally about this stuff. So, and we all pretty
Speaker 6: much agree on the attribution of the tarot to the
Speaker 6: netivot or the paths. So I think it's just courtesy
Speaker 6: amongst occultists to talk in the language that everybody knows,
Speaker 6: you know, and to use gammetric values that everybody kind
Speaker 6: of agrees with as opposed to some ordinal things, some
Speaker 6: other creative interpretation. But yeah, it's just something. Yeah, you
Speaker 6: could specialize on your own, but when you and I
Speaker 6: are talking, I'm going to use the language that we
Speaker 6: know absolutely have in common. I don't know if that
Speaker 6: kind of veered too much from your question, but yes,
Speaker 6: about about Taro, I think I think it's more the
Speaker 6: things that are around, the things that you learn around
Speaker 6: Taro that informant ike.
Speaker 2: So sorry about that, Jimmy apologize.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I it's kind of like music. You're developing this,
Speaker 3: uh you know, uh jenisagui this this kind of taste
Speaker 3: almost but uh, it's it's sort of this foundational backdrop
Speaker 3: to being able to interpret this stuff because the taro.
Speaker 3: I have seen the taro work just as well for
Speaker 3: hardcore like militant Golden Dawn correspondent correspondence people as I
Speaker 3: do for people who treat the taro like it's an
Speaker 3: oracle deck or something like that. You know, I've seen
Speaker 3: it work fine in both situations. I think consistency in
Speaker 3: your own method is important. But I also think, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, this is gonna sound cheesy and new agey,
Speaker 3: but I mean Taro was the first, it's still is
Speaker 3: my preferred to a nation method. But you got to
Speaker 3: develop a relationship with the cards. They speak to you
Speaker 3: like a person. You know, a lot of times they
Speaker 3: speak to you like a counselor it's not it's not
Speaker 3: that you I feel like one of the things about
Speaker 3: the Golden Dawn system is that I think it's better
Speaker 3: for Tarot card pathworkings or things like you're using where
Speaker 3: you're doing this sort of you know, using the tarot
Speaker 3: as like associations for particular planetary whatever it is. But
Speaker 3: I think ultimately to develop a really serious Tarot practice,
Speaker 3: you got to just develop a relationship and be consistent
Speaker 3: with your methodology. And I agree with you, I Taro
Speaker 3: is it's always been like my number one thing was
Speaker 3: the first like occult tool that I ever purchased and
Speaker 3: worked with. But I've I can count on one hand
Speaker 3: how many tarot books I've read. It kind of it
Speaker 3: because like the first third through everything I've tried to read,
Speaker 3: I've been like, this is this gets more more in
Speaker 3: the way than helping me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, I feel the same way. And you know,
Speaker 6: there's another interesting thing about developing that theoretical sort of
Speaker 6: lens on the tarot is like as opposed to And
Speaker 6: it's my first divination technique as well. And I came
Speaker 6: at it completely intuitively, you know, in fact, almost in
Speaker 6: the psychological sort of sense, you know, because I, like
Speaker 6: all of us, you know, growing up in the modern West,
Speaker 6: we're disenchanted beings. We're just hardwired for atheistic materialism and nihilism.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just we It's in our commercials, it's
Speaker 6: in our cars, it's in our food. It's just what
Speaker 6: we take. You know, everything's weights and measures. The planets
Speaker 6: are meaningless, just dead matter held together by some natural
Speaker 6: force or other, you know. But I don't want to
Speaker 6: go down that path right now. But I will say
Speaker 6: that regarding the Tarot, starting from that intuitive place and
Speaker 6: then learning all this theory and all you know, all
Speaker 6: the GD correspondences and all the mythology and all these
Speaker 6: different ways of looking at it, then coming back hopefully
Speaker 6: to where the intuitive and the intellectual kind of meat,
Speaker 6: and you don't have to think about those correspondences anymore.
Speaker 6: It's it's become something where these symbols, you know, especially
Speaker 6: I use Tero de Marseille and Merseille. These are these
Speaker 6: are nice, like wood cutty looking, strong, austere images.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't.
Speaker 6: I started on rider way like most people, but I
Speaker 6: switched to these pretty early on, and I just find
Speaker 6: them to be more penetrative, you know, Like when I
Speaker 6: look at a Tero de marsell card, it's just like
Speaker 6: it can bypass my intellect, you know, or it could
Speaker 6: before I get in there and start interpreting it. Just
Speaker 6: like dream interpretation. And Danny told me this. He got
Speaker 6: it from Freud or Young or somebody, but he said,
Speaker 6: the first thing in dream interpretation that you should think
Speaker 6: is how does it feel? Not what does it mean?
Speaker 6: You know, when you have this crazy dream you wake
Speaker 6: up in the morning, what does it mean?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 6: My dog has esp with me and we were eating
Speaker 6: cereal or whatever. But don't look at like what it means,
Speaker 6: look at try and feel those feelings you know around that.
Speaker 6: So I think I think the really integrative part of
Speaker 6: tarot is when the theory and the practice and the
Speaker 6: intuition and the intellect I guess kind of become one
Speaker 6: one thing and you really just absorb the symbols for
Speaker 6: what they are and maybe you're able to articulate those
Speaker 6: to somebody else.
Speaker 2: Thank you both appreciate that greatly.
Speaker 6: Sure.
Speaker 1: Do you think at some point it's this type of
Speaker 1: magic it was more open in the public or or
Speaker 1: more well accepted, like I think like during the Renaissance,
Speaker 1: do you think maybe it was usual considered more.
Speaker 6: The Roman Empire.
Speaker 3: Yeah, every everyone was was an astrologer back then.
Speaker 6: Yeah, thrastle us, Uh, I mean it was, it was
Speaker 6: part of it was part of the legislature.
Speaker 4: Mm.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's like a it's like a civic art.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I uh. It just it all has to
Speaker 3: do I think exactly with what you were saying, Jamie.
Speaker 3: Is that that that you know atheistic materialism and it's
Speaker 3: it's it's unconscious because it is it just surrounds us completely.
Speaker 3: Uh that, you know, just it relegates it to this,
Speaker 3: you know, the bin of Wu. You know, it's like,
Speaker 3: uh so it's yeah, it's been that way probably since.
Speaker 3: You know, the Ptolemaic model literally Ptolemy's sort of model
Speaker 3: of the spheres was kind of like disproven. But I
Speaker 3: think the broader project of what we call right the
Speaker 3: Enlightenment really was was this prolonged effort to sort of
Speaker 3: sort of de enchante you know, disenchant everything uh by.
Speaker 3: But it didn't it didn't successfully do that. I think.
Speaker 9: You know, I.
Speaker 3: Somebody asked me a question recently or they posted up
Speaker 3: on my wall and I haven't gotten to it yet
Speaker 3: to answer it. They said, Okay, if this stuff was
Speaker 3: so powerful, why was why did modern science? Why did
Speaker 3: the why was the Enlightenment able to overcome it and
Speaker 3: destroy it? The first thing is it didn't destroy it. Okay,
Speaker 3: we like, we're all sitting here, we all do this shit.
Speaker 3: It did not destroy it, first of all. Second of
Speaker 3: it was it really was a shift in in predominantly
Speaker 3: the Protestant and Walter Honograph has done great research on this.
Speaker 3: The Protestant universities wanted to strip out this sort of
Speaker 3: platonizing version of Christianity, And little did they know that
Speaker 3: that project, once begun, would eventually just come back it
Speaker 3: to bite them in the ass and eat them alive
Speaker 3: in terms of you know, the academic institutions. But it's
Speaker 3: a I think that's what rendered it controversial. But even
Speaker 3: even still there were people in the fifteenth and sixteenth
Speaker 3: century still using this stuff. You know, there were still
Speaker 3: some doctors that that you know, it's even still well known,
Speaker 3: like you don't you don't draw blood, you don't do
Speaker 3: surgery in the full of the moon. That's still like
Speaker 3: a modern thing, you know, because why because it's like
Speaker 3: you're gonna you're gonna have a heart time controlling blood loss.
Speaker 3: So even even back then it's it was I think
Speaker 3: something that was quietly done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, like just even recently maybe just coincidental
Speaker 1: people have covered on the show, like I think Tycho
Speaker 1: Brahe and Kepler and I be honest, like they old
Speaker 1: I think at some point got paid by like you know,
Speaker 1: kings are powerful people just to do hard like to
Speaker 1: do charts.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like almost the way that they they pedal that
Speaker 1: ship like as a way of like making money in between,
Speaker 1: I guess doing things.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like kind of side almost.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and the Habsburgs, I think they both worked for them.
Speaker 4: Tycho Brahi had two castles that he built specifically for
Speaker 4: the observations, and the entire things were engineered for that purpose.
Speaker 4: So this was major operations going on back then with
Speaker 4: just normal I mean, I don't think he even had
Speaker 4: the telescope e there, so this was just standard observation
Speaker 4: with the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, him and his drunk drunken milk.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: It was another interesting thing about him too.
Speaker 1: They do speculate that they think his flower gardens are
Speaker 1: even planted planet and like planetary uh like everything that
Speaker 1: would go along I guess with Mars would be in
Speaker 1: the same area, or Jupiter would be in the same area,
Speaker 1: like he planted all those things like separately to go
Speaker 1: along with each other. I was like, that's what I
Speaker 1: That's what I came across when I was covering him. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was, and he was really big into the Chinction ship.
Speaker 1: He provided health for everybody on that fucking island.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I like his cosmology. I mean I think he
Speaker 6: really did an improvement on the ptolemaic thing by making
Speaker 6: Venus and mercury go around the Sun, you know, because
Speaker 6: they have you know that that's a better explanation of
Speaker 6: than than uh, you know, the epicircles and deference and
Speaker 6: things like that. That told me we had to explain
Speaker 6: those those inferior planets and their retrogradations and stuff like that.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I love the ticonic cosmology. And Ike and
Speaker 6: I have talked about this a ton, and it's you know,
Speaker 6: it's a charge that many anti astrologers level at astrology
Speaker 6: is that it's geocentric. They say it's geocentric, so it's
Speaker 6: an outmoded cosmology, it's you know, but that's astrology. We
Speaker 6: use the word georeferential. It's georeferential because the Earth is
Speaker 6: the reference point from which human beings survey the cosmos.
Speaker 6: The Earth is the locus of human consciousness. It's astrology
Speaker 6: is an earthly art that we apply to the cosmos.
Speaker 6: So we live on the Earth. It's our perspective, and
Speaker 6: you know, it makes sense to think of the Earth
Speaker 6: as being this stationary central object. So one little thought,
Speaker 6: kind of thought exercise for this would be, imagine you're
Speaker 6: looking at our Solar system from celestial north. You're out
Speaker 6: in space and you're looking down at our Sun and
Speaker 6: all the planets are orbiting it. Right, take the pin
Speaker 6: out of the Sun, stick it in the Earth, and
Speaker 6: leave all the movements exactly the same, and you're totally fine,
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. That's all you need. You
Speaker 6: don't need to believe something ridiculous to be an astrologer.
Speaker 6: You don't need to believe in geocentrism. You need to
Speaker 6: believe that the Earth is your locus of observation, and
Speaker 6: you need to consider that both the Earth and the
Speaker 6: Sun are careening through space at some ungodly miles per hour, right,
Speaker 6: doesn't matter which one's rotating around which, you know, Just
Speaker 6: stick the pin in the Earth, leave everything exactly the same,
Speaker 6: and you're fine. You have tychos you have typos cosmology
Speaker 6: right there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's it's virtually useless, in my opinion, it's
Speaker 3: virtually useless to adopt any other perspective when you are
Speaker 3: doing any kind of magic, right, because magic is all
Speaker 3: about the phenomenology, and so it's like, as as a magician,
Speaker 3: you need to be in the driver's seat when you're
Speaker 3: outsourcing sort of the you know, whatever it is, the
Speaker 3: locus of gravity or whatever, whatever you think it is.
Speaker 3: You know, I think the main thing was is this
Speaker 3: idea that when we reallocate the quote unquote center to
Speaker 3: the sun, it kind of you know, it detracts from
Speaker 3: the specialness of human beings. It's like, I think, again,
Speaker 3: that's another modern or postmodern misconception. I think it's a
Speaker 3: corruption of our thinking that is a product of this
Speaker 3: everywhere we look, atheistic, reductionist materialism. It doesn't matter if
Speaker 3: the center of the center of gravity is the sun.
Speaker 3: Your experience is in your fucking body, in the room
Speaker 3: you're in, in the town you're in, in the state
Speaker 3: you're in, the fucking planet you're on. So that does
Speaker 3: not negate any of that stuff. And again, you know,
Speaker 3: like like Jamie saying, you don't need to say either or.
Speaker 3: You got to have two things that have their own
Speaker 3: domain of authority, right the let's say this, the the
Speaker 3: phenomenological and the the the the scientific or empirical or
Speaker 3: the subjective and the objective, respectively. They got to have
Speaker 3: their own domains of authority if you're going to do
Speaker 3: this shit, and they have to be in communication with
Speaker 3: each other. But one shouldn't be trying to stamp the
Speaker 3: other one out. But particularly when you're when you're working magic,
Speaker 3: it is useless. Yes, uh, to not adopt a you
Speaker 3: know that that geocentric drivers or georeferential driver's seat view
Speaker 3: of the cosmos, because both are true, they're just different
Speaker 3: kinds of truths.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I agree with one percent. I also agree that
Speaker 6: if you're if you're doing Hellenistic, Medieval Renaissance, Elizabethan, whatever,
Speaker 6: if you're doing any traditional astrology or magic, you at
Speaker 6: least have to know that cosmological model. You have to
Speaker 6: know the Aristotelian uh ptolemaic kind of situation of the cosmos.
Speaker 6: You have to know that the elements are in their
Speaker 6: natural place in the sublunary sphere, meaning it's pre gravitational, right.
Speaker 6: They didn't know about gravity. So they had the Earth
Speaker 6: in the center. They had water on top of the earth.
Speaker 6: They had air on top of water. They had fire
Speaker 6: lighter than air. You could see when you drop a
Speaker 6: pebble into water that the earth sinks. You could see
Speaker 6: that when you put air in the water, the bubbles rise.
Speaker 6: You could see that that air is that fire is
Speaker 6: lighter than air. I mean, that's just the way the
Speaker 6: elements stratify, or the really the the states of matter,
Speaker 6: because earth is just solid, water is liquid or you know, uh,
Speaker 6: air is gaseous, fire is plasmic. That's all so, and
Speaker 6: then you get the etheric spheres, like I was talking about, incorruptible,
Speaker 6: unchangeable above the sphere, the sublunary sphere of generation and corruption,
Speaker 6: and then beyond that you know the odo ad, the
Speaker 6: any et cetera, these angelic spheres, these noetic sphere, whatever
Speaker 6: model you're working with metaphysically, because you're beyond the physics
Speaker 6: at that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I one thing that I made a note
Speaker 3: that I wanted to like right before we started talking,
Speaker 3: that I wanted to kind of offer to anybody that's
Speaker 3: trying to understand astrological stuff, because I really feel for
Speaker 3: the person I did magic for years and I couldn't
Speaker 3: wrap my head around astrology. I feel for people who
Speaker 3: can't understand it because specifically because I'm trying to scienceify it,
Speaker 3: or I was, but this helped me. I don't know
Speaker 3: how much it'll help everyone, but I'm sure there are
Speaker 3: some people out there that will be interested in understanding
Speaker 3: this the basic premise of astrology, like Jamie saying, is
Speaker 3: not necessarily that there are these astral rays again a
Speaker 3: substance of sorts. It's more so that everything is interconnected
Speaker 3: on the level of the blueprint, the level of the metaphysic.
Speaker 3: And for those of you that need a little bit
Speaker 3: more of a philosophical or sophistic way of thinking about it,
Speaker 3: we talk about it in Agrippa, you talk about it
Speaker 3: in Iamicus. Any kind of of drawing down effluence has
Speaker 3: to do with this chain of flow, okay, from the divine,
Speaker 3: through the celestial to the material. Now that implies like proximity,
Speaker 3: which again there's a truth to that, but there's also
Speaker 3: this other truth and the other truth which was really
Speaker 3: elaborated by the Stoics. But I think Platinus, the quote
Speaker 3: unquote father of neo Platonism, really now that this idea
Speaker 3: of sympatheia sympathy Okay, what he said, and if you're
Speaker 3: familiar with the tree of life you'll understand this, the
Speaker 3: cabalistic tree of life. But he said is that like sympatheia,
Speaker 3: doesn't the fact that everything is I guess the word
Speaker 3: he used was emanations, right, pro odos a moving outward
Speaker 3: and emanation, but he said Platinus specifies because of sympatheia
Speaker 3: that emanation of the spheres doesn't necessarily happen sequentially. It's
Speaker 3: just a hierarchical relationship. It's a series of relationships that
Speaker 3: is happening at the same time. It's the same thing
Speaker 3: with the lightning flash on the tree of life. Kether
Speaker 3: and Malkuth are happening at the same time. They just
Speaker 3: have a hierarchical relationship and this stratification of relationships between them.
Speaker 3: So I don't know how much that helped. It certainly
Speaker 3: helped me to kind of not get caught up in like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I've got this on the one hand, reductive quote unquote
Speaker 3: empirical model of the way that the cosmos works, and
Speaker 3: then on the other hand, I've got this like I
Speaker 3: don't know, German fairy tale. I don't want to have
Speaker 3: either of those. What was much more satisfying to me
Speaker 3: and lined up with my phenomenology. The experience of practicing
Speaker 3: astrological magic is to view everything as having this sympathea
Speaker 3: right where it's there is relationship to each other, but
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily that you know, everything is sequential or linear,
Speaker 3: let's say, right, because then that's how metaphysical causality happens,
Speaker 3: is that it's not linear.
Speaker 6: Right exactly. Felix for Tuna Rex is asking king of
Speaker 6: happy fortune is asking Modern astrology compared to ancient astrology,
Speaker 6: modern using the outer planets or just the original five
Speaker 6: plus the two luminaries. I think that's worth talking about
Speaker 6: for a second, just for just on the basic astrological level,
Speaker 6: Traditional astrology just uses the visible planet Uranus Neptune and Pluto.
Speaker 6: Urinus was discovered I want to say seventeen eighty one
Speaker 6: by Herschel, and then later for the I think it
Speaker 6: was like nineteen thirty or something when they discovered Pluto.
Speaker 6: But those being invisible planets, the ancients knew nothing of
Speaker 6: them until telescopes, of course, but because and if you
Speaker 6: do use them, I never use them. But I don't
Speaker 6: do a lot of mundane astrology. If I did mundane
Speaker 6: or worldly astrology talking about current events and things like that,
Speaker 6: I would absolutely look at the outer planets, the trans
Speaker 6: Attorneian planets, because they're generational. They have to do more
Speaker 6: with groups of people and civilizations and stuff. Because they
Speaker 6: it takes I want to say, two hundred and eighty
Speaker 6: four years or something like that for Pluto to make
Speaker 6: a complete orbital cycle. So if you're doing natal astrology
Speaker 6: or electional astrology or stuff like that, I wouldn't even
Speaker 6: bother with them they're doing, unless maybe you we have
Speaker 6: a very partile conjunction, you know, like you're like, you're
Speaker 6: your Pluto is right on the very degree of your Mars.
Speaker 6: You might consider it a little bit, and that's just
Speaker 6: stacking your that's just Mars a little you know, a
Speaker 6: little like swoll or whatever.
Speaker 4: Jamie, I gotta know what about the asteroids. So we've
Speaker 4: had people on talking about the significance of the asteroids
Speaker 4: in their own personal readings and how how accurate the
Speaker 4: asteroids are when combining them with the other two forms,
Speaker 4: which then creates sort of like a three locking mechanism, right,
Speaker 4: So like three terms would be you know, you've got
Speaker 4: the zodiac on the outside, the planets on the inside,
Speaker 4: and then a further significator would be the asteroids, which
Speaker 4: would bring more meaning to the situation. What are you
Speaker 4: guys' thoughts on that?
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, that could fine tune some things I
Speaker 6: don't I personally don't work with them. I do some
Speaker 6: fixed star work, you know, I'd like to consider the
Speaker 6: fixed stars, but asteroids, I just you know, I just
Speaker 6: haven't gotten into them. It's not enough, not enough time
Speaker 6: in the day. I guess.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: It's funny all of them, all of them are named
Speaker 4: by the Vatican, right the Vatican are the ones choosing
Speaker 4: these names for these asteroids that it all comes from
Speaker 4: really significant Greek myths. So they're not naming this stuff
Speaker 4: after any of these saints or any of these popes
Speaker 4: or anything. It's it's really strange if you.
Speaker 2: Think about it.
Speaker 4: But yeah, they're accurate equivocations of these different planets, and
Speaker 4: their significance in these charts is amazing because you can
Speaker 4: just plug this stuff right in and start to figure
Speaker 4: out what did she call it? With some form of
Speaker 4: like crime astrology, Like that's where the main focus was.
Speaker 4: I forgot her name, but she was using the asteroids that, yeah,
Speaker 4: she was getting really really tight predictions on you know,
Speaker 4: crime astrology. Forensic astrology, that's.
Speaker 1: What you called it.
Speaker 6: I could see that.
Speaker 1: Uh, when you had mentioned something before about like I guess, uh,
Speaker 1: you have mentioned earlier about like ways of bringing things
Speaker 1: down into form. I know what you were saying talking
Speaker 1: about earlier is pre dates the yad Vade formula probably,
Speaker 1: but would you look at that as like another you know,
Speaker 1: way of doing that.
Speaker 3: Uh, and you go to hey Vave formula in terms of.
Speaker 1: Like actually using that to bring something down into like
Speaker 1: you're working or.
Speaker 3: Personally. I uh so this is something that you're probably
Speaker 3: you're probably referring to the four worlds method of of
Speaker 3: of of drawing down through the letters of the tetragrammaton.
Speaker 3: I I gotta be honest with you, I think that.
Speaker 3: So there's there's two main things that I've learned about
Speaker 3: astrological practice. You have to it has to take place
Speaker 3: at a good time, at an appropriate time, kind of
Speaker 3: like what Matt was saying earlier. But then the other
Speaker 3: the other piece is and the Pika Trick talks about
Speaker 3: this right out of the gate, right out of the gate,
Speaker 3: right this this eleventh century astrological magical book Can talismancy
Speaker 3: et cetera. It opens up with the really opens up
Speaker 3: with the first practical pieces in like chapter four or
Speaker 3: something with the the uh the mentions of the moon.
Speaker 3: But it mentions multiple times you could do this stuff
Speaker 3: if you don't believe it. If there's any doubt, it
Speaker 3: won't work. It won't like the Pika trick says that
Speaker 3: not me, and but I have found that to be
Speaker 3: very true, so that those are my requirements really for
Speaker 3: drawing things down. The other you know, I wouldn't use
Speaker 3: like a Yodhey vave formula. Just I'm getting disenchanted with
Speaker 3: with I don't even know if I should say this,
Speaker 3: but I'm getting disenchanted with kabalistic magic. I'm really reverting
Speaker 3: much more to nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong
Speaker 3: with it, seriously, it's a very good system. But I'm
Speaker 3: much more interested in in the Hellenic and Hellenistic. I
Speaker 3: think it's because my Greek is a lot better than
Speaker 3: my Hebrew, right, I mean, my my father's from Greece.
Speaker 3: I can speak the language decently, so I'm much more
Speaker 3: interested in what's going on there having sort of an
Speaker 3: ethnic connection to it, I guess a blood connection. But
Speaker 3: the other thing that I think is important for once
Speaker 3: you've drawn the thing down, how to how to test
Speaker 3: if it's actually happened. I think that that's a really
Speaker 3: important thing as well, developing those methods or having a
Speaker 3: teacher show you some of those methods to be able
Speaker 3: to test your work. But those are the three main
Speaker 3: components for me. It's got to happen at the right time.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: You got to have the right materials too, Although Warnock
Speaker 3: he gives some really really great examples of paper talismans,
Speaker 3: and I mean the the Daoist magical tradition of talismancy
Speaker 3: and sigil craft also utilized paper. So but for the
Speaker 3: most part, I like to have the right materials. The
Speaker 3: timing is indispensable. Belief assurance, confidence needs to be true,
Speaker 3: belief needs to be there, and then being able to
Speaker 3: test my methods. So I don't know that. I guess
Speaker 3: that doesn't really answer your question, but I wouldn't. I
Speaker 3: don't really use that method. The only method I've used
Speaker 3: capitalistically has been you know, the hexagram and Arorita formula
Speaker 3: to bring things down. But you know, you're you're going
Speaker 3: through the entire hierarchy. You know, you're when you're when
Speaker 3: you're doing the hexagram, or you open up the you
Speaker 3: do lesser hexagram and kind of create the area. Then
Speaker 3: you you have the targeted greater hexagram, which is facing
Speaker 3: the constellation or the planet wherever the quarter of the
Speaker 3: heavens where this planetary you know, effluence is its body
Speaker 3: is located. And then you you you call in the hierarchy,
Speaker 3: so you start at the highest divine name and work
Speaker 3: your way down that's associated with the planetary sphere, all
Speaker 3: the way down to the spirit. And then it just
Speaker 3: depends like what what are you trying to do? You know,
Speaker 3: are you doing the talisman? Do you just want to
Speaker 3: bathe in the ambiance of the planet. That's the thing too.
Speaker 3: People do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that now just probably make myself so stupid.
Speaker 1: But if you talk about the hexagram, that would be
Speaker 1: more of like the lv X actually than right, or
Speaker 1: is that the same if you look at them? Yeah, no, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean that that because like that I feel it
Speaker 1: kind of gives you the idea that if you're invoking
Speaker 1: you or pulling something down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we call it the chef a in in kabalistic magic.
Speaker 3: When you're doing you know, the the vibration of the
Speaker 3: names and then you drop your arms at the side,
Speaker 3: the chefa is supposed to enter. The one reason I
Speaker 3: don't recommend the LVX to people is because it's the
Speaker 3: adept formula of the Golden Dawn it's not the adept
Speaker 3: formula of the Crolean stuff because he changes, he takes
Speaker 3: out or moves the position of the crucified and resurrected God.
Speaker 3: That's not the prime, primary thing. And the Golden Dawn
Speaker 3: Osiris is the primary thing, the resurrecting God. And the
Speaker 3: reason why I say that is because it's LVX is
Speaker 3: a magical formula. So if you are, if you are
Speaker 3: invoking that formula consistently, what you're not understanding is that
Speaker 3: it's a formula of death. It's and that's I don't
Speaker 3: know how much anybody knows about the five equals six
Speaker 3: of the Golden Dawn. I won't put any spoilers has
Speaker 3: very much to do with this idea of death and rebirth,
Speaker 3: and that you know, that initiatory current that you're invoking
Speaker 3: will will you're asking, you know, put me to death,
Speaker 3: put you know, lowercase m me to death.
Speaker 1: I use that ship for about four years straight.
Speaker 3: Exactly so so I do. But you know, and it
Speaker 3: can create a lot of in my experience and in
Speaker 3: the experience of other Golden Dawn practitioners that I've worked with,
Speaker 3: it can create a lot of unwanted or or you know,
Speaker 3: just intense stuff. So again it's another reason why I like,
Speaker 3: I don't like to really I don't often recommend, even
Speaker 3: in the private classes I give, I don't often recommend
Speaker 3: that people pull rituals out of like the Golden Dawn
Speaker 3: whole cloth. And if you're not working that system, it's.
Speaker 1: A good uh, it's good advice.
Speaker 3: Maybe, you know. I'm sure there's some people that are like,
Speaker 3: fuck this guy, I did the LVX, I got a car.
Speaker 1: You didn't know that one?
Speaker 2: What the fuck is I doing wrong? Yes? Is there
Speaker 2: any other questions in the chat that maybe I just
Speaker 2: wanted to say.
Speaker 5: I appreciated what I said, everything you said about colosting
Speaker 5: magic and uh correspondences and like utilizing the system of
Speaker 5: I mean, because I don't have cultural My cultural familiarity
Speaker 5: with certain things is you know, I don't have like
Speaker 5: a mix. So it's like for me, it's like I
Speaker 5: just draw from like what I know, but it's not
Speaker 5: necessarily because I have like a deep rooted, like blood
Speaker 5: memory of it.
Speaker 2: But I yeah, I try and I try and do that.
Speaker 2: But I appreciate what you said.
Speaker 5: Everything that you said, I think it was important to hear.
Speaker 5: And even the thing about the five and the six
Speaker 5: is very interesting because there's a the Vodrosova tantra that
Speaker 5: just talks about He says, like in the tontra, the
Speaker 5: five or the six arises in the five, but then
Speaker 5: the six also has to descend back into the five
Speaker 5: to like do something with it.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, the kind of reminds me of
Speaker 2: that dialogical relationship.
Speaker 4: Well, go ahead, I was, I was, I was just
Speaker 4: leaving forward, so I was gonna ask. I was going
Speaker 4: to ask about origin. So I think a lot of
Speaker 4: this goes into actual celebration of the birthday itself as
Speaker 4: being an astrologically significant event, because I see that origin.
Speaker 4: One of the early Church fathers said that no saints
Speaker 4: or righteous individuals in the scripture celebrated their birthdays, asserting
Speaker 4: that such festivities were associated with sinners and pagan practices
Speaker 4: rather than faithful followers of God.
Speaker 2: So the idea of.
Speaker 4: Having a birthday itself doesn't seem to be rooted in
Speaker 4: sort of the Abrahamic traditions at all. It's it's like
Speaker 4: a carryover even after they try to get rid of
Speaker 4: most of these pagan practices. People didn't want to get
Speaker 4: rid of their own birthdays and these celebrations having to
Speaker 4: do with you know, the ancient gods. We've we've sort
Speaker 4: of left all of those conceptions of the birthday out
Speaker 4: and just sort of stuck with the date.
Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, if if you're you're talking, well it's because
Speaker 3: you know, and some people will just attribute this to
Speaker 3: the Gnostics. But growing up Catholic and in the Orthodox Church,
Speaker 3: like Greek Orthodox Church, I can tell you, like all
Speaker 3: forms of older Christianity are are they're not world affirming, Okay,
Speaker 3: they so they don't the incarnation. The only incarnation that
Speaker 3: really mattered was was was the birth of Christ and
Speaker 3: and it's it's it's not necessarily as as as like
Speaker 3: world denying as some of the Gnostic sects, particularly the Sethianans, right,
Speaker 3: the Valentinians were not that world denying. They they didn't
Speaker 3: really think the demiurge was evil. Uh, it's just said
Speaker 3: that people just we have this bracket term called Gnoscissism
Speaker 3: that we just throw all this bullshit into and so
Speaker 3: you can't you don't really get a really good picture
Speaker 3: of what that was early Christianities we're talking about. But
Speaker 3: even on the right So here's it's a good example. Platinus,
Speaker 3: father of Neoplatonism, he wrote a tract, you know, against
Speaker 3: the Gnostics. The thing is, if you he's he's only
Speaker 3: arguing with them theologically, How could you think the demiurge
Speaker 3: is evil? How could you think that but he's not
Speaker 3: arguing with them. The fact that like, oh yeah, but
Speaker 3: don't you know, don't indulge anything. I mean, porphyry starts
Speaker 3: the life of Pythagoras, getting of his biography goes or
Speaker 3: the life of Platinus, says Platinus seemed to be ashamed
Speaker 3: to be in a body. I mean, so even even
Speaker 3: in the pagan practices that we're trying to have this
Speaker 3: anagogic ascent through various means, we're not. They didn't look
Speaker 3: very well on at at worldliness. Now that's that's where
Speaker 3: you get Eamlicus, who says, hey, guys, it's not all
Speaker 3: about transcendence. There's imminence too, And yeah, there has to
Speaker 3: be imminence otherwise there's no order and magic doesn't work
Speaker 3: and nothing works at that point. So I in that sense,
Speaker 3: I I I it's a very especially for theoretic magician there,
Speaker 3: it's a very nuanced uh sort of line that you
Speaker 3: have to that you have to walk. What do you
Speaker 3: think about that, Jamie, I'm interested.
Speaker 6: I like uh Gregory Palamis's uh uh sort of solution
Speaker 6: to that. Well, it wasn't totally his, but he did
Speaker 6: the best sort of articulation of it. I think is
Speaker 6: uh lusia and energeia, that the essence of God is
Speaker 6: uh apathetic, it's you know, ineffable, et cetera. We can't
Speaker 6: know anything about it. You know, we can't define it
Speaker 6: in any meaningful sense. It's just completely escapes our mentation entirely.
Speaker 6: But we could know it's or his energies in the world.
Speaker 6: It's activities in the world. So I think I forget
Speaker 6: where this started in the in this conversation, but that's
Speaker 6: where I when when you were talking. That's kind of
Speaker 6: what I was thinking about near the end, there is
Speaker 6: uh That's that's one way oh about about going back.
Speaker 6: So theosis, at least in uh some orthodox circles, theosis
Speaker 6: is made possible by energeia, by activities in the world.
Speaker 6: So just let and you know, it sounds very close
Speaker 6: to the synthemata that are sewn into reality, you know.
Speaker 6: And uh in fact, a lot of that, you know,
Speaker 6: as it passes through Pseudodionysius and and others. You know,
Speaker 6: Amplotonis who was you know, not to mention origin and
Speaker 6: Clement of Alexandria. How a lot of this makes it
Speaker 6: into the early Church fathers and and a lot of this, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, late Platonic, theogical stuff, these ideas, you know,
Speaker 6: and if you look at icons, for example, they're they're
Speaker 6: not just you know, icon of carvers. They're they're not
Speaker 6: just making a painting. These are windows to the noetic realm,
Speaker 6: you know. These are like these are like real portals
Speaker 6: sort of you know, metaphysically, So there's there's an intact,
Speaker 6: you know. I think late Platonism is sort of alive
Speaker 6: and well, uh and it's it's as hidden as uh
Speaker 6: as pollomoombay or whatever is in Santa Ria or Catholicism,
Speaker 6: you know how you know, these uh urubin magical initiatic
Speaker 6: traditions were hidden under the veneer a finn veneer of
Speaker 6: Catholic Saints and stuff like that, just so they can
Speaker 6: you know. I think I think there's a similar sort
Speaker 6: of mechanism and earlier and similar mechanism with some late
Speaker 6: Platonic ideas and Christianity, how they're there's sort of Orthodoxy
Speaker 6: as a aproaching horse for some of that stuff, let's say.
Speaker 6: And I don't know if that has anything to do
Speaker 6: with what we were talking about, but I feel like
Speaker 6: I feel like Energies and Essences was a place we
Speaker 6: were going.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: That could be like a really good title for a
Speaker 3: new age he like a new age music album. Energies
Speaker 3: and Essences. It's somebody playing a Tibetan bowl for four hours.
Speaker 1: Exactly, anybody, it's already two hours. I mean, I hate
Speaker 1: to wrap it up. I guess we have to stop
Speaker 1: at some point. Did anybody have any questions or anything before?
Speaker 8: Well, I did have a question to go for it,
Speaker 8: get it off, okay, one moment here I have it
Speaker 8: written down, So I guess, just whatever you know you
Speaker 8: want to respond to out of this. But I had
Speaker 8: several kind of points here I wanted to ask about.
Speaker 8: And I'm glad I waited because I did hear you
Speaker 8: mentioned the Porphyry tree, and my understanding is that may
Speaker 8: have been you know, how we ended up with like
Speaker 8: the Tree of life suffaro kind of model today with
Speaker 8: the paths. It seems like it does begin, is that,
Speaker 8: And then I was going to mention Kersher, who then
Speaker 8: added the letters to the paths, and then you guys
Speaker 8: ended up saying it. So that's why I like to
Speaker 8: wait a lot of times, so it makes more sense
Speaker 8: when I actually talk about it, I guess.
Speaker 7: But anyway, my question was kind of like.
Speaker 8: Referencing these letters on the paths, and so when we're
Speaker 8: dealing with the path between Malcouth and Yasode, are we
Speaker 8: kind of dealing with like the firmament there and these
Speaker 8: letters that are on those paths there. I was looking
Speaker 8: at them, and it seems to me that it's like
Speaker 8: Lamed mem Nunn and Dalette and you guys were talking
Speaker 8: about windows and doors just a moment ago, even speculatively,
Speaker 8: But it makes me think of the door in heaven
Speaker 8: or the portals in heaven through which God would send
Speaker 8: the waters to flood the earth, or he sends his
Speaker 8: seed Christ or his prophets, or where you know, our
Speaker 8: birthdays are kind of celebrated as when we passed through
Speaker 8: the door of heaven right, and his shepherds like his
Speaker 8: profits right. So I just was curious if maybe that's
Speaker 8: what the lunar mansions are all about is maybe it's
Speaker 8: the door to the mansion, so to speak. And maybe
Speaker 8: that's why these times are important, because doing something at
Speaker 8: the wrong time would be like trying to get through
Speaker 8: the wall of the mansion rather than the door, so
Speaker 8: to speak. Right, And it makes me think of references
Speaker 8: christ even made to about how like the way is narrow,
Speaker 8: you know, so maybe there are importances to take note of.
Speaker 6: Here.
Speaker 7: And then let me see here.
Speaker 8: Oh, I think I mentioned earlier how only the sub
Speaker 8: loonar can be changed, and so I guess I kind
Speaker 8: of had a question about whether or not the pip
Speaker 8: cards is that do they only rest in the domain
Speaker 8: of Malcouth where they where change can occur, representing the
Speaker 8: four elements, Yet they don't seem to be important above that,
Speaker 8: you know?
Speaker 2: So uh?
Speaker 8: And do they represent this four seasons that occur on
Speaker 8: Malcouth perhaps? So anyway, sorry, I tried to do a
Speaker 8: good job of threading together my question, thank you.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't know if Jamie wants to tackle the first
Speaker 3: part of that, but I have ideas about the pips
Speaker 3: well in the.
Speaker 8: How the porphyry tree. Maybe is that a good diagram
Speaker 8: of the chain that you guys have talked.
Speaker 3: About Porphyry poor for the thing. I think the thing
Speaker 3: that people get wrong about Porphyry's tree is that it
Speaker 3: wasn't It wasn't really Porphyry. It was so Porphyry wrote
Speaker 3: this introduction because one of his like students or some
Speaker 3: one of his friends was having a really hard time.
Speaker 3: Actually it was a Roman like politician having a really
Speaker 3: hard time understanding Aristotle's categories. Aristotle wrote it that way.
Speaker 3: So you know, there's that like fabled transaction or that
Speaker 3: letter between Alexander and Aristotle where he goes, you know,
Speaker 3: Alexander's expressing disapproval about Aristotle publishing his teachings, and Aristotle goes, I, yes,
Speaker 3: I have published it, but I also haven't. So it
Speaker 3: was supposed to be very very rigorous, esoteric. So Porphyry
Speaker 3: writes this thing called the Isago Gay, the introduction very
Speaker 3: very I just finished reading it for the second time,
Speaker 3: like two days ago, and he's showing how Aristotle, you know,
Speaker 3: uses what is essentially a platonic technique that has developed
Speaker 3: in the Sophist platonic dialogue. The sofis showing how Aristotle
Speaker 3: breaks everything down into genus species, different particularity and accident.
Speaker 3: And so that's why we get the Porphyris tree. It's
Speaker 3: really Porphyry's kind of pedagogical model of teaching Aristotle. So
Speaker 3: I'm ultimately the idea is platonic. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 3: what the other Yeah, I don't know what what you
Speaker 3: maybe you want to repeat the part about like the firmament.
Speaker 3: I didn't know.
Speaker 8: Well, I just found how like on that particular model,
Speaker 8: how it's evolved from that tree, you know, become what
Speaker 8: it is now. We kind of have like the sun
Speaker 8: and the moon and the stars kind of there resonating
Speaker 8: with the lower paths, you know. And then there's also
Speaker 8: these letters, And I was wondering if maybe just any
Speaker 8: insights that maybe came from that, maybe doors and portals
Speaker 8: into heaven, et cetera. And if the pip cards kind
Speaker 8: of represented the seasons, the four seasons on Malcouth, you know,
Speaker 8: like because they don't seem to occur up above it.
Speaker 8: You said like sub lunar was where all the change occurred,
Speaker 8: you know. So I was wondering if maybe the pit
Speaker 8: cards kind of made sense down there on Malcouth.
Speaker 6: Only Well there's there's definitely the arrangement, this standard Golden
Speaker 6: Dawn arrangement, but there's also uh, you know, I tend
Speaker 6: to look at Taro sort of cosmically, where you know,
Speaker 6: you get you get oliph Mam and Sheen, you know,
Speaker 6: the fool, the hanged Man and judgment right where they're
Speaker 6: down there elemental, right, so they would be sort of
Speaker 6: at the bottom. Uh. And then with maybe the uh
Speaker 6: the operator representing the Earth element because obviously ol of
Speaker 6: Man machine that's that's air, fire, air, water and fire,
Speaker 6: so you wouldn't have an Earth there, so maybe the
Speaker 6: operator is Earth, I think some people sometimes say. But
Speaker 6: then there's the seven double letter cards. Are the planets
Speaker 6: the planetary spheres above that from the Moon up to Saturn,
Speaker 6: and then you're at beina there cobble of you know,
Speaker 6: in terms of sepharotically, let's say, and then the firmament
Speaker 6: would be the eighth sphere, which would be Hokma, right,
Speaker 6: So Hokma I think most people understand to be the firmament.
Speaker 6: And then beyond that, you know, you'd have kether the crown,
Speaker 6: which is sort of any attic or no etic I mean,
Speaker 6: that's how I kind of look at Oh, and then
Speaker 6: the pip cards. I see them as decans, you know.
Speaker 6: So you've got like two, three, four, Well, there's a
Speaker 6: way to lay them out, you know. And there's thirty
Speaker 6: six of them if you take the aces out, so
Speaker 6: there's a way to make those. You can make a
Speaker 6: really nice circle. Uh. With all of this, it's actually
Speaker 6: a neat little exercise where you use all the cards
Speaker 6: and uh and you make this cosmic model that emanates
Speaker 6: from the Earth and the center out to the beyond
Speaker 6: the any add or up to the any add or
Speaker 6: the no edic sphere. But but yeah, there's I mean
Speaker 6: there's tons of stuff you could do with the taro.
Speaker 6: I mean it's it's really a portable temple. You know,
Speaker 6: you can orient yourself and and sort of create kind
Speaker 6: of an axis moon to you. I mean I've used
Speaker 6: I've used taro in that that sort of capacity before.
Speaker 6: It's it's really a neat uh, a neat way to
Speaker 6: sort of cosmologically ground yourself. It's a you can essentially
Speaker 6: create a magical circle and do all kinds of uh operate.
Speaker 6: Like if you look in uh solemonic magic, there's always
Speaker 6: this circle. Sometimes there's a triangle of art and that
Speaker 6: moves across the perimeter depending on what direction the demon's
Speaker 6: coming from, et cetera. But it's all cosmological stuff. It's
Speaker 6: all you know, orientation. So I think the best thing
Speaker 6: if you're interested in this stuff again, I wouldn't go
Speaker 6: to Dionfortune or anybody like that. I'd go to Mitch Eliotta,
Speaker 6: you know, and read something like The Sacred and the Profane,
Speaker 6: because that's going to straighten you out and cosmologically that's
Speaker 6: going to give you That's that's the real stuff, you know.
Speaker 6: Me Eliotta E L I A d that book. I
Speaker 6: mean top five for me, top five in my life. Yeah,
Speaker 6: Sacred in the Profane.
Speaker 3: It's up there for me. He gave me words for
Speaker 3: stuff I didn't I didn't have words for. Yeah. I
Speaker 3: would just add that the way that I the way
Speaker 3: that I read the Pips is actually very close to
Speaker 3: what Jamie was talking about earlier. I I used the
Speaker 3: taro I I always have, and I didn't realize it
Speaker 3: till maybe five years ago, but I used the taro
Speaker 3: very in a very sort of Pythagorean or neo Pythagorean
Speaker 3: sort of thing. So the PIPS for me, break down
Speaker 3: into elemental sort of decads like tetractys and uh, you
Speaker 3: know four of of of these of the suits representing
Speaker 3: the elements, and they they really if you wanted to
Speaker 3: group them kabalistically, you could group them as as elemental trees.
Speaker 3: But a lot of times they're just put into the
Speaker 3: various cefirot. So if if you wanted to find a
Speaker 3: place where on the tree of life where all these
Speaker 3: things go, maybe you're working with the tree of Asaiah.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 3: If you have that four worlds model of that kind
Speaker 3: of Jacob's ladder where the four interconnected really five interconnected trees,
Speaker 3: you have the bottom world Asaiya. And this is kind
Speaker 3: of what Nick was talking about with the jodey Vave formula.
Speaker 3: Asaiah would have would have its own tree. It's it's
Speaker 3: kind of like this fractalizing microcost some macrocosm tree. That's
Speaker 3: the usefulness of the cabalistic system is that you can
Speaker 3: do this kind of play with it, And so you'd
Speaker 3: have a tree of life in Asiah. And then in
Speaker 3: each one of those sphere at right, Ketter's one, aces
Speaker 3: Kulkma's two, you know two, Pip ben Us three, three,
Speaker 3: Pip that's the way, at least I learned it through
Speaker 3: the Golden Dawn. But it is very pythea agree and
Speaker 3: and it's one system is not you know right, it's
Speaker 3: it's if it's right for you, if it's better for
Speaker 3: you for what you are doing personally. I love the
Speaker 3: idea of taking those in assigning them to the to
Speaker 3: the deck ends. I think that's that's brilliant.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, and what I wanted to mention one other thing.
Speaker 8: I also like that you assign kedder to the ace
Speaker 8: because oftentimes you see the crown appearing there with the suit,
Speaker 8: but also a yode or a hand kind of gifting
Speaker 8: out gift giving.
Speaker 7: The element as well, like in a boon kind of way.
Speaker 7: So I think that's very fitting.
Speaker 6: Thank you guys both. I appreciate that. I think arrows
Speaker 6: Up had an interesting questions here. Why did Porphyry go
Speaker 6: against whole sign houses? And what do we think about that?
Speaker 6: So whole sign houses, in case you don't know, it's
Speaker 6: the house system, so domains of terrestrial action. It's like,
Speaker 6: you know, one house might be your body, your physique,
Speaker 6: your physique, et cetera. The second house would be like
Speaker 6: your belongings, your movable goods. The third house would be
Speaker 6: like siblings and short trips, et cetera, all the way
Speaker 6: around the wheel. The houses are the domains of life
Speaker 6: in which the zodiacally conditioned planetary sort of essences play out.
Speaker 6: So she's asking about why did Porfyry go against whole
Speaker 6: signs because there are the first quadrant house system was
Speaker 6: Porphyry houses. So whole signs meant that the signs shared
Speaker 6: cusps with the houses. That the that the cusps of
Speaker 6: the signs were the same as the cusps of the houses.
Speaker 6: So that's a lot of people say that's the first
Speaker 6: house system, that's the old Hellenistic house system. Some people
Speaker 6: have argued that point, like I forget her name right now,
Speaker 6: Hodges Hedges, I forget her name, but uh, but Porphyry
Speaker 6: houses uses the angles, the ascendant, descendant axis, and the
Speaker 6: mcic axis. I know this is technical stuff, but I'm
Speaker 6: just trying to answer her question. So and then Porfyry
Speaker 6: equally divided the angles. He trisected them. So I think
Speaker 6: he went against that because unless you have angular houses,
Speaker 6: quadrant houses is what they call them when they're not
Speaker 6: whole sign Unless you have quadrant houses, that recognize the
Speaker 6: angles as cusps, then you have no micro macro because
Speaker 6: the micro is the is how that's projected on the
Speaker 6: sphere of the earth. So I think it's that's why
Speaker 6: a number of years ago I switched from whole sign
Speaker 6: to Portfyry Houses because I like to have the projection
Speaker 6: of the angles on the earth. I think it finishes
Speaker 6: the picture actually, instead of just using whole sign where
Speaker 6: it's like kind of loosey goosey.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 6: But there's Deborah Holding, That's who made an argument about this.
Speaker 6: I would read Deborah Holding's Houses and Mansions in the
Speaker 6: Sky or something that's called Houses and the Castles and
Speaker 6: the Sky or something like that. It's her house system book.
Speaker 6: But if you're interested in that, Debra Holding with a
Speaker 6: U H O U L D I n G. And
Speaker 6: that's the only question I see remaining in here.
Speaker 2: So thank you.
Speaker 1: That was awesome. Appreciate you answering that, Jamie. Yeah, uh
Speaker 1: all right, yeah, I think we'll wrap it up. Help
Speaker 1: you guys hostage looking enough. No, that was an amazing
Speaker 1: and amazing discussion. I really appreciate it you. I think
Speaker 1: you really helped also, like for some of my audience,
Speaker 1: people listening who don't know how detailed this stuff is.
Speaker 1: I just think you really helped them realize, like, this
Speaker 1: stuff isn't just spinning around with a crystal on your hand,
Speaker 1: throwing levender over your shoulder.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 1: It was a little bit more too that.
Speaker 9: So I do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do that the shadow, but uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it was a lot of stuff in
Speaker 1: that that was probably a complete different language to a
Speaker 1: lot of people listening on an audio Open the Trumps.
Speaker 1: But yeah, before we wrap it up, people that are
Speaker 1: remaining headless, would you like to let everybody know what's
Speaker 1: up with you? And when they can find you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to immute yourself.
Speaker 2: So there we go preemptively.
Speaker 4: Yeahy, so yeah, you can find me at the Headless
Speaker 4: Giant on x and on YouTube and on Rumble now,
Speaker 4: so check me out there.
Speaker 1: Thank you, well, yeah, thank you very much. In the
Speaker 1: bridge going on, sir.
Speaker 8: It's always a pleasure. Thank you guys so much for
Speaker 8: joining us. You're being very generous with your time, and
Speaker 8: I took a lot of notes. I do appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Rich and Jin the Ninja, thank
Speaker 2: you so much, boss.
Speaker 5: And I was like, really huge thank you to Jamie,
Speaker 5: and of course it's always a huge honor to speak
Speaker 5: to both of you, and I really appreciate it that
Speaker 5: you feel my questions. It comes from a place of
Speaker 5: unknowing of the other the Western traditions, and so I
Speaker 5: may sometimes misarticulated, but I am just looking for comparables
Speaker 5: or like you know, parallels currents.
Speaker 2: So thank you both so much. I appreciate that.
Speaker 5: Also shout out to Matt of course, Matt Murra, Joshua
Speaker 5: the Branch.
Speaker 2: You did great. I was so proud of you. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, he's really been studying.
Speaker 5: And of course my co host for Threshold Saints Solar
Speaker 5: and also the Grey Lodge and yeah, you can just
Speaker 5: find me a Threshold Saints just dropped an episode with
Speaker 5: Greg k Theology Theologia Poetica, so episode eighty one and
Speaker 5: Spotify and Apple, thank you guys so much, appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Amazing honor.
Speaker 1: Nice, thank you for coming on and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And Jamie, please let everybody know what they can find
Speaker 1: all your stuff, whatever you like.
Speaker 6: To promote Jamie Paul Lamb at Jamie Paul Lamb dot com.
Speaker 6: Here I can put it in the chat, but.
Speaker 2: Well no I can't in the private chat.
Speaker 6: I can post it in j A I M A
Speaker 6: P A U L l A m B dot com
Speaker 6: and uh, I do astrology. I have some books and
Speaker 6: and hit me up for Oh. One thing I did
Speaker 6: want to bring up is I have a service that
Speaker 6: uh that I think is under you. Oh no, that's wrong,
Speaker 6: he ai me j A, I emmy like it's like himI.
Speaker 6: But I have a service where I do the sound
Speaker 6: of your natal chart in a harmonium improvisation like a
Speaker 6: five minute MP three. I make a five minute MP
Speaker 6: three of the sound of your natal chart played on
Speaker 6: a on a Bellows operated read organ. It's really kind
Speaker 6: of a cool service that I'm surprised more people don't
Speaker 6: hit me up about that. It's you hear like through
Speaker 6: and I use medieval and Renaissance and some antique correspondences
Speaker 6: to uh two yeah nder that you know, like like
Speaker 6: the church modes and the planets to notes and the
Speaker 6: the the signs and stuff like that. So anyway, thanks
Speaker 6: so much for having me on Nick and head listen
Speaker 6: everybody and Chin and the branch and ike. Always a
Speaker 6: pleasure to see you and talk to you, and thanks
Speaker 6: for everybody who tuned in.
Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you, so I really appreciate you coming
Speaker 1: on to token with that.
Speaker 2: So good.
Speaker 1: And I Ike, please let everybody know what's over with
Speaker 1: you where they can fight all your basic work.
Speaker 3: Sure, Ike Baker dot com I K E B A
Speaker 3: K E R. You've got everything up there, from my
Speaker 3: podcast episodes to some of the YouTube documentary style presentations
Speaker 3: that I put up. Also, when you go to my page,
Speaker 3: you can you can sign up for my I do
Speaker 3: a newsletter every week every Thursday, more or less every Thursday.
Speaker 3: It's completely free. If you want, you just go and
Speaker 3: sign up for it. Throw your email in the uh
Speaker 3: in in the subscription box there. Also on the right
Speaker 3: the bottom right hand corner of my sort of like
Speaker 3: I guess homepage. Uh, there's a little chat widget. Then
Speaker 3: anything you write in there will come directly to my inbox. Again,
Speaker 3: you know, I always say, please be nice. Now Jamie's
Speaker 3: gonna be sending men me send me weird questions like
Speaker 3: three in the morning. I shouldn't I should have waited
Speaker 3: until he left. But uh yeah, So if you're interested
Speaker 3: in in uh, I give private instruction and all sorts
Speaker 3: of things uh you know, magic, alchemy, philosophy, pachology. I'm
Speaker 3: a guardian of the Anus and I do group courses too.
Speaker 3: Right now, I've got one called Music as Magic. We're
Speaker 3: like dead Center in the middle of it. Uh so,
Speaker 3: but you can still join if you want to sign up.
Speaker 3: I did. My last class was called Hermetic Kabala for
Speaker 3: practitioners and initiates, and the next one is going to
Speaker 3: be starting in March. It's actually it's called Techniques of
Speaker 3: Greco Egyptian Theorgy. So I'm taking all the stuff that
Speaker 3: I did in Egypt a couple of months ago with
Speaker 3: a group of twenty sort of participants and bringing that
Speaker 3: practical and theoretical stuff. For anybody that's interested, just hit
Speaker 3: me up on my web page. You guys are awesome.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having us on. Thanks for inviting me on too.
Speaker 3: I really it was a real treat to be able
Speaker 3: to sit and talk with you guys, and Jamie of course,
Speaker 3: it just hats off man. You are a brilliant dude,
Speaker 3: and I love you.
Speaker 1: Love you likewise, no, thank both of youse man. And
Speaker 1: that was some really great stuff. Like I said before,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff talked about on here
Speaker 1: that yeah, a lot of I'm sure I went over
Speaker 1: a lot of people's heads, but I think it really
Speaker 1: helped prove a point, like, you know what this shit
Speaker 1: is kind of you know, it's not It's not as
Speaker 1: easy or simple as people think it is. I don't
Speaker 1: think you can be a fucking idiot if you know
Speaker 1: what you're doing, you know. So again, thank you, gentlemen.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Everybody in the chat. That's what's up.
Speaker 1: We got Freda rc Is in there. We got him
Speaker 1: coming on next Wednesday as well. We got Giorgina Rose
Speaker 1: coming on at six o'clock and then he got him
Speaker 1: coming on at nine o'clock for Nochian Magic. So Wednesday's
Speaker 1: gonna be popping off next week. Uh yeah, So if
Speaker 1: you guys are listening, take a look out for that.
Speaker 1: And again, everybody in the chat, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people in there. Arrows, thank you for all the questions.
Speaker 1: It was like you were on the show anyway. I mean,
Speaker 1: she was one of the members. It was like she
Speaker 1: was here, but not so thanks. Uh yeah, and until
Speaker 1: the next one, everybody be well Later