WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.040 You see somethings going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What, What's gonna happen? 3 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:15.519 On What? 4 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.399 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, we got a 5 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:30.160 bunch of rejects here with us, and we got two 6 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:33.079 very very special guests, both returning. 7 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:34.840 One we just had on. 8 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:36.880 We had I Caker on recently in a while ago 9 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.039 for the Goatia. We had Jamie poul Lamb on Keep 10 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:41.640 It Real. He was one of the few guests that 11 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.000 actually made me feel completely ignorant on my own show. 12 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:46.600 The guy was talking about the Goistia and tying it 13 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:48.000 told this stuff, and I was just sitting there like, 14 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.200 but it was an amazing stuff, and I was really 15 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.000 happy to get him on again. And I was like, 16 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:56.280 you know what, I gotta get Jamie on again. And 17 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.359 then I remember, wait, him and ke are actually pretty 18 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:00.320 you know, they're close. I was like, I got to 19 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:01.920 get them both on maybe. 20 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:02.719 And I asked Iiken. 21 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.560 He was totally down for it, so very very excited 22 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.560 to have them both here. But before they introduced themselves, 23 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.079 I'll have a headless let everybody know what's up with 24 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:12.439 him and where they can find all his work. 25 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:17.879 Well, you're muted this sir, Yeah, muted, how you doing, everybody, 26 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.879 I'm the Headless Giant. You can find me on Twitter 27 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.200 and YouTube at the Headless Giant. If you have any 28 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.879 sort of strange occult experiences, send them to the mail 29 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.040 bag at Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com and 30 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.799 we will read those on Thursdays. I also have an 31 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:36.319 Alchemy show on Mondays and seven seven seven Alistair Croley's 32 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:41.640 Kabala on Tuesdays and on Sundays, I've got the Trialogues 33 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.400 with Ethan and Ricardo, so check those out. 34 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:47.319 Thank you, oh, thank you, sir, and we got gin 35 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:48.159 what is going on? 36 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.640 What is a boss? Mister ninety three? So I'm Jina Ninja. 37 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.079 I I have a show called Threshold Saints, which I 38 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.239 call serial Experiments and speculative ontology, so it's about the 39 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.920 metaphysics of reality obviously. Yes, I use a lot of 40 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:07.599 kabala and special special shout out to Ike for hooking 41 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:10.039 me up with that contact. I really appreciate that was 42 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:12.719 major for me, so thank you so much. Ike, and 43 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.280 of course Jamie, I've shouted you out many times on 44 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:18.879 the show and my show just for kind of blowing 45 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.400 me away and humbling me in a big way as 46 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:26.080 the I often call myself the rising hodelike Prince of Kabala. 47 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:30.000 You made me feel. 48 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:33.360 Much more a student that I should have probably approached 49 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.840 it as. So thank you so much for that. And 50 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:37.639 if you want to check me out, check me out 51 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.639 at Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints on I G and X, 52 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.280 or my personal account at wucom, Reborn to a Uko 53 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.879 and G Reborn Threshold Saints dot substack dot com, as 54 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.560 well as the True Gray Lodge dot com. And of 55 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:53.479 course Matt Mura is our webmaster for that as well 56 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.039 as runs our YouTube channel, so that is our group 57 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.439 show and I'm dropping in an episode with Greg k 58 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.719 today in the Hour of Saturn, so watch out for that. 59 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.240 Thank you so much, guys, appreciate it. 60 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:09.719 Oh, thank you for jumping on. I appreciate it, sir. 61 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:10.960 And we got the branch. 62 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:13.360 What is going on any guys. 63 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:15.800 It's a pleasure to be here. So that Shalom and. 64 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.919 I do spaces with Jen and Matt usually every Friday 65 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.840 on x Twitter, So if you guys want to catch 66 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.719 us on there and interact, that's been a lot of fun. 67 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.439 We've been doing that for weeks now. 68 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.840 Matt then uploads a lot of those episodes to YouTube 69 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.000 to check out The Gray Lodge on YouTube if you 70 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.280 want to check out our catalog of our spaces, and 71 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:39.879 of course Threshold Saints. 72 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:40.039 Man. 73 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:44.240 It's a great show and there's been some recent releases. 74 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.400 Like you said, so check it out. I really like 75 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:48.840 it too because you can drive while you're listening to Spotify, 76 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.840 you know. So anyway, thanks for being here with me, 77 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.240 and I appreciate the invite. 78 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:56.039 Of course, no, glad you could make it. And we 79 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.759 got Matt Moore. What is going on, sir, glad you here. 80 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.080 Happy to be here again. So Matt Mura you can 81 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:09.120 find me always as at Matt Mora nineteen. That's on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, Twitch, 82 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:12.240 maybe some other places I don't know. And there's also 83 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:15.080 my website that's Cabala dot com k A A B 84 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.000 A l a h dot com. A lot of cool 85 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.920 stuff there. I'm doing tart readings now because I'm working 86 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.759 on a cool little project. So I mean I always 87 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.040 did them, but now I'm more focused on them. So 88 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:30.199 if you're interested being a beta tester, just let me 89 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.160 know the m me in any of these platforms. 90 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:34.879 And yeah, very nice way to start the year. 91 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:35.279 Let's go. 92 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:39.079 Oh yeah, right, and I guess, and thank you mad 93 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:41.040 for jumping on. I know it's where are you right now? Well, 94 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:43.439 you're in Brazil at this point, right, yeah, in Brazil 95 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.120 now as you're starting a cult out there or something 96 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:45.399 or what? 97 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:46.920 Uh not? 98 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:49.959 I mean not saying it publicly? What do you mean. 99 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.120 If I if I would start one, I wouldn't say 100 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:54.639 it publicly? 101 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:57.600 Uh? 102 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.439 All right, I guess as guess wise how I started 103 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.360 off with the Ike first? Hei, Please sir, let everybody know. 104 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:06.120 For the new listeners or people just never didn't hear 105 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:08.199 the other episode yet, please let them know who you are. 106 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:08.839 What's up? 107 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.079 Hey, thanks for having me on. This was great. I 108 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.079 was really excited when you asked me to talk with Jamie. 109 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.319 It's been a minute and it's always just so much 110 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.839 fun to chat with both of you. Actually, everybody here. 111 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:25.759 I had a really good time last time we were on. 112 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:26.279 Hell yeah. 113 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:32.079 But yeah, I'm Ike Baker, I guess first and foremost, 114 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:34.639 I would have to say that I've I'm an author. 115 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.160 I wrote Etheric Magic and a Formless Fire. I have 116 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:42.160 a book coming out this year with Inner Traditions called 117 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.959 Esoteric Mythology. I host the Arcanum podcast and YouTube channel. 118 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.720 I have scholars, practitioners, lots of people on the pod. 119 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.600 It just entered its third year, so check me out there. 120 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:59.920 I also do a documentary style presentations on esotericism, the occult, 121 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:05.399 loss of e, et cetera. And my background is uh 122 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:11.560 Masonic historian, temple chief and adept of the Hermetic Order 123 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:15.800 of the Golden Dawn under the Ciceros, and Martinism a 124 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:20.759 bunch of other fun stuff, but yeah, just a general, 125 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:27.759 a general real enthusiasm for occult is a mesotericism primarily magic. 126 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:31.839 Very nice, Thank you very much, Sake. I appreciate having 127 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:35.720 you back on Andy. Last, but not least, Jamie, please 128 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:37.519 let everybody know what your deal is when they can 129 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:38.560 find all your amazing work. 130 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.600 My name is Jamie Paul Lamb. I think I've got 131 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.240 a delay, Like when I look at my picture, it's 132 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.240 like I go like this and then it's like five 133 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.519 minutes or no, it's like a three. I don't know. 134 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.759 It's just is my voice matching my no? 135 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:56.959 But you answered pretty quick, so obviously the audio Oh okay, 136 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:58.199 the audio sounds good. 137 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.560 Yeah, anyway, Jamie Paul Lamb. My website is j A 138 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:07.319 I M E. P A U L L A m 139 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:15.079 B dot com and I'm an astrologer. I'm a freemason. 140 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.160 I'm in some other orders and groups of Golden Dawn 141 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:25.319 Order and a Rosicrucian Order, and and I just had 142 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.800 a book come out on inner traditions called the Astrological 143 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:34.160 Goesha seventy two Keys to Angelic and Demonic Astrology that 144 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.319 came out, and I want to say August of twenty five, 145 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:43.720 so you can get it now. And yeah, basically, I'd 146 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.079 like to direct people to my website. I've got all 147 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:50.439 sorts of offerings on there and a blog that I 148 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:52.959 need to do better about keeping up to date, and 149 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:56.839 I plan on writing some more stuff in the future. 150 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:00.480 But I want to say it's a pleasure to be bad, Nick, 151 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:04.040 thanks so much for asking me. I always a pleasure, 152 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.120 everybody else. Great to see you again or to meet 153 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.839 you this time, and uh, really looking forward to this conversation. 154 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:14.639 No, definitely, it was a blast having you all last time. 155 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:16.240 I actually felt so bad. I felt like I really 156 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:18.000 didn't have much to say because you blew my mind 157 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:19.879 and I really just was like I didn't know what 158 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.839 to say to this. I think kind of felt like. 159 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.879 That's what you're saying that and Jin said that, and 160 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.959 now I'm feeling bad, Like I came on and I 161 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:35.039 was like, you know, I had to be a jerk 162 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:37.000 or something. 163 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:37.519 You did. 164 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.480 You did exactly what I wish my guests would do more. 165 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:41.080 So thank you. 166 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.120 It just I think it kind of blew our minds, Jamie, 167 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.879 Like how it's you've You've basically I told this to 168 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:51.480 live so it's no surprise to anyone here. But I 169 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:54.759 mean you pioneered, like this was great work that you've 170 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.720 like basically you know, put into the public sphere. So 171 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.480 it's kind of incredible and is if you're a magician 172 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.840 or I think you are, you look at it in awe. 173 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.120 So I think that's what it was. 174 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:10.759 Well, I appreciate that absolutely. I would not have written. 175 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:13.679 I would not have written a single word if I 176 00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:15.480 hadn't read some of your books first. 177 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:15.759 Man. 178 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.600 I mean that's actually what got us in touch, if 179 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.120 you remember. So I was just so blown, blown, completely 180 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:25.120 blown away. But yeah, and your work is getting better 181 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.600 every day, man, every release is uh, you know, developing 182 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.600 that style and that that way to communicate stuff like 183 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:33.480 a good teacher. 184 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:38.159 Oh you're making me blush. 185 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.559 Well good, you got to do Yeah, you can't tell exactly. Yeah, right, 186 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.080 all right, so Jamie, maybe so you stop blushing, we'll 187 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.720 put the spotlight on you. When it comes to astrology, 188 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:51.000 we're gonna be talking about astrological magic. I guess you know, 189 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:55.639 the evolution of astrological magic or astrology. What is that 190 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.399 even to you? Astrology astrological magic. 191 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:04.360 So yeah, let's take each of those terms. Right. Astrology 192 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:08.840 you could say, is the well simply, you could say 193 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.080 the study of meaningful time. Right, that's a good clean 194 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:15.399 way to put it. Another thing is to say, you know, 195 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:19.519 astrology means a certain thing. When we say astrology, we're 196 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:23.320 talking about something particular. It's not like, uh, you can't 197 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:27.360 call you know, star stellar omens and things like that 198 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:31.200 necessarily astrology. When we talk about astrology proper, I think 199 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:36.879 we're talking about uh, planets in science, in houses and 200 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:38.759 how they're how they aspect each other. 201 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:39.240 You know. 202 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.600 So there's some elements of astrology that are that make 203 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.600 it astrological, right, I mean it's a Hellenistic sort of invention, right, 204 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:58.039 and you know, taking bits from Mesopotamian proto astrological omenic. Uh, 205 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.639 auspices and things like that, and they're electional and their 206 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.120 mundane sort of proto astrology, and then mixing that with 207 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:14.159 the Egyptian inheritance of of you know, time keeping, the 208 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:21.679 the calculation or the consideration of the decans on the horizon, 209 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:25.240 and the very notion of the ascendant, you know, and 210 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:30.000 using that horoscop post to later to cast a figure 211 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.879 or charter. So yeah, and then the magical part, I think, 212 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.080 you know, that's something that I was hoping we would 213 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.840 because it's misty where that where that kind of begins, right, 214 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.679 the astrological magic, because you could say these sort of 215 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:49.279 since we know that in the Acadian through the Babylonian 216 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:54.080 Mesopotamian complex of cultures, there at least they were using 217 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:59.840 electional astrology when to do things and mundane astrology. So 218 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:04.679 if they're electing when to do something, then wouldn't that 219 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.039 be sort of a magical because you're you're sort of 220 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:13.279 you're sort of harnessing the cosmic momentum of a certain 221 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.799 configuration in the planetarily or you know, zodiatically or otherwise 222 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:23.799 and bringing that bringing that down to a terrestrial operation, 223 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.519 you know, which I think is it's got to be 224 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.639 astrological magic, even though it's proto astrological, I don't know, 225 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:32.879 well a little misty. 226 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.960 I think I'll just attack on there. I think the 227 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:42.399 minute you use any kind of technique two uh you know, 228 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:47.519 so divining or ascertaining and delineating uh, the you know, 229 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.840 fate and fortune so on and so forth. You know, 230 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:55.759 the thiros, the the the auspicious timing. That's one that's 231 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.639 astrology proper, I think in the study of that science. 232 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:01.360 But when you when you use a technique to try 233 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:07.039 and alter or change or influence that or buttress against 234 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:12.799 in fortune or or or misfortune, I think then it 235 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:15.799 can for me it's magic at that point. 236 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:21.200 M Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. So, yeah, when we 237 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:24.360 see things like the making of amulets or talismans or 238 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:28.840 things like that, or even you know, setting up apotropaic 239 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:32.159 objects that you know, we know they did that on 240 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.759 you know, thresholds and things like that, and the essentially 241 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:39.759 the equivalent of like what would think of as like 242 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.440 voodoo dolls or something. They had little figures that they 243 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:47.039 would create at certain times that would be imbued with 244 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:54.679 that sort of stellar influence or planetary influence, which right 245 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.519 that Yeah. 246 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.159 If I may mention something as well that I remembered 247 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.480 there a guy in Brazil that he studied a lot 248 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:07.320 of the like let's say folk magic. I'm going to 249 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.159 use this term guys and how they approach things and 250 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.320 so on. And what he would do is, because he 251 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:15.799 was into kabbala, he would go to the little sessions 252 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.480 going on and write down everything that was asked for 253 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:21.679 the person, like you've got to go through this place, 254 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:25.279 like the cross place, and then you've got to you know, 255 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.679 get those ingredients and so on, and around that time 256 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:30.320 do that thing. And then he wrote it down, and 257 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.799 then afterwards he checked the correspondences and the astrology and 258 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:36.279 those would match, like he would be a proper like 259 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.679 castrological magic. But the person doesn't necessarily new that because 260 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:42.399 they were just getting told what to do, you know. 261 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.840 The the nentity or whatever would come and say like, hey, 262 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:47.200 go do this to solve your problem, and then they 263 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.159 would go and do it. So it's very nice and 264 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.159 understanding as well that even if you don't necessarily know 265 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.679 exactly the bits of what you're doing, it still will work. 266 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:58.039 Right. 267 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:06.080 Yeah, I you know, I was thinking I was thinking 268 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:09.799 about you when this crossed my mind earlier about how 269 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.519 of course there's you know, in Greek the word magic. 270 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.960 We know that they parse it out a little better 271 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.759 than we do in English. You've got thometurgy, you've got 272 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:21.519 the urgy, you've got tele steky, you've got uh teletie. 273 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.039 You know initiation to go is show magic or whatever. 274 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.720 But what do you what do you think in terms 275 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:32.919 of like say, like an astral religion like Mythriism or something, 276 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.919 or or Hermetism. We know that there's at least that 277 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:43.440 pimander like component of an assent anagoge or something would 278 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.799 it be? And and you know this source Shiro better 279 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.360 than I do. Do you find anything where it's like 280 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.480 astrological teletie or you know, or where they would definitely 281 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.320 you like in the Asclepias the god making stuff, right, 282 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.519 is that astrological? Or do we just see things like 283 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.000 like the Discourse on the eighth and ninth with the 284 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.320 no I mean it clearly says. 285 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:19.200 Yeah, it's it's I would say that the from from 286 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:25.720 the Hellenistic period forward, right, So for I don't want 287 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.240 to insult anyone's intelligence, but just in case, like you're 288 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.720 you're you just got into this stuff. The Hellenistic period 289 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:37.919 is right around three thirty two in Egypt when Alexander 290 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.720 the Great conquered it brought the Greek stuff there. And 291 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:46.080 really modern astrology, or let's say, the precursor or the 292 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:53.240 template for modern astrology, as as consisting of the planets, signs, houses, 293 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.759 and aspects, those four parts that first appears. Now similarly, 294 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:05.599 you have really the first concrete record of of of 295 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:10.480 what we would consider modern theurgic ceremonial UH and the 296 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:16.039 you know, the bringing together of all the various colors incenses. 297 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.160 We have a very good record of that kind of 298 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.000 stuff from that period. I would say that from the 299 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:27.480 outset UH in that period it's it must be it 300 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.720 had and there you know, also including the technical harmtica 301 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:35.400 and the philosophical harmtica, there's always a planetary component because 302 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:41.640 even when you're even when you're doing UH emsycosis right 303 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:47.599 in souling an object, even when you're doing that, the 304 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:51.519 intermediary the sort of the distance to be spanned the 305 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.119 let's say, you know, I don't know if it's Aristotelian 306 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.000 or what, but that that chain of causality, that chain 307 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:01.920 of flow always has to through the firmament you know, 308 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:04.799 through the through down, through the planets and and stuff 309 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:09.160 like that. So I would say there's a very very 310 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:16.240 strong emphasis throughout the traditions. Uh, you know, even some 311 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:23.599 of the pseudo Aristotelian stuff and pseudo Alexandrian stuff that 312 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.599 they listed the Pika Trix, right, the Pika Trix says, okay, 313 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.119 I am I, I collected the work from these guys, 314 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.559 these ancient Greeks. He's constantly talking about. You know, it 315 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.960 was it was pseudonymous. It wasn't actually Aristotle talking about 316 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.799 you know, uh, or at least we don't think it is. 317 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:41.279 Scholars don't think it was. 318 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.559 But what I if I could pop in there real quick. 319 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.880 So at the oracle at Delphi, the appearance of the 320 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.319 constellation Lyra would signify the coming or going of Apollo, 321 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.160 the deity that would speak through the pythia at the 322 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:01.440 at the temple. So they they certainly had a connection 323 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.759 to the times of the year coming through these different 324 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:09.079 constellations and the spiritual properties of those constellations. So you know, 325 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:11.839 part of the year Apollo would be there, and then 326 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.880 other gods would come in and start speaking through the pithea, 327 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.920 like Athena and Poseidon, so yeah. 328 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.960 Yeah, when Apoula was a big one because especially okay 329 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.799 Lira right, that means the harp or the lyar, and 330 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:28.119 so he it was actually him sitting at his celestial 331 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:33.480 celestial throne above the cosmos playing the tune that the 332 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:40.000 muses were then singing on the spheres you know that 333 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.400 that orbited the Earth. So that's yeah, he would have 334 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.440 a very very big part in that kind of thing 335 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.440 as well. But yeah, I think I'm I mean, I'm 336 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:55.240 convinced that it was even he Amblicus talks about it. 337 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:00.599 He talks about it like he will sort of barage. 338 00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:04.640 And Greg Shaw did an amazing article on this. If 339 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:06.359 anybody wants to get a hold of it, I'll send 340 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.839 it to you. He sort of disparaged the use of 341 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.359 astrology specifically for sort of telling the future, but he 342 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:20.039 did emphasize its necessity in theurgic you know, an agogay assent, 343 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.119 so he was saying like, yeah, we use it for this, 344 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.680 not this type of thing. But again, you know, I 345 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.000 love v Amlicus. I don't think he's the end all 346 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.680 be all about theorgy, And I think Porfyrey had some incredible, 347 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.599 incredible insights that had very different brains. 348 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:37.000 You know. 349 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:44.920 Yeah, that's interesting that whole exchange. Well, you know, letter 350 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:50.160 to an ebo and the mystery to mysterious. But yeah, 351 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.680 so I guess that's part of the thing, is like, 352 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.839 do we call it astrological magic if they're using it 353 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.119 to ascend through the seven planetary spheres at each of 354 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.720 which they would you know, maybe take on a virtue, 355 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.680 give up advice up or down, you know, an and 356 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:12.200 a basis, a katabasis, you know it. I guess since 357 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.640 we're talking about astrological magic, do we want to limit 358 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:22.240 that to purely like talisman making or things that you 359 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.599 actually need to cast a full election for, you know, 360 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.240 you have to fully cast a chart for that, just 361 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.480 like natal astrology. Using magic. In natal astrology, which I 362 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.640 do a lot for people, is you know, i'd get 363 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.599 maybe the lord of their year, you know, the planetary 364 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:42.240 lord of their year, like what perfection they're in, which 365 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.519 is a time lord technique, and I would get the 366 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.079 the lord of the house that they're in for that year, 367 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.240 and then I would maybe set them up with some 368 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:56.440 sort of synthemata or you know, the appropriate colored candle 369 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.079 signatures and tokens in the in the terrestrial sphere, the 370 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.599 appropriate color candle, the appropriate incense, the appropriate musical mode 371 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.119 like a church mode, plagal or an authentic mode, and 372 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.720 you know, the appropriate image maybe to set up and 373 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.960 setting up a rudimentary little altar for that deity for 374 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:19.039 that year, so they could and whether they whether they 375 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:23.440 sort of interface through the archangel of the planet, through 376 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.640 the planet itself sort of, or through the you know, 377 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.559 Greco Roman entity associated with that planet, or the Mesopotamian 378 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:35.319 or Egyptian entity, or however they choose to interact, you know, 379 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:42.599 whether from a pagan perspective, Abrahamic perspective. I mean, you 380 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.119 can kind of work around all of that syncretically, right, 381 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:51.119 But yeah, so that's something I definitely call astrological magic. 382 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.839 But we also, you know, a big thing and I 383 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.200 think this brings in the Neoplatonic thing, but also the 384 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.599 Haranian thing much later the Sabians of Herah. Is this 385 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:09.319 astral religion which is like you know, which is so teiological. 386 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.519 It's self effic as has something to do with the 387 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:18.279 the condition of the soul and the soul's you know, 388 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:23.200 existence beyond death, so and the state of the soul. 389 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:28.160 It's cleanliness, it's orderliness, whatever. So do we call that 390 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.839 astrological magic? That's that to me? I guess in the 391 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.799 loosest sense we do, because it has to do with 392 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.960 the celestial sphere and also events on the Earth that 393 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:42.599 are tied to that through chains or seer or whatever. 394 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.079 And you know, I don't know. 395 00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.839 I think I think we well, first I want to 396 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.680 just mention this and then kind of pivot Chris Warnock, 397 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.279 who you know, we both know, he has said that 398 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.680 he has, in his opinion, the Sabians of Iran had 399 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:04.680 the most sophisticated and complex techniques for astrological magic. So 400 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.279 I think that situates them squarely in that tradition. But 401 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:12.200 you know, at least to his mind. But I would 402 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.519 say the main issue, right, okay, So like we defined 403 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:21.759 astrology pretty succinctly, so what needs to be said about 404 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:26.000 magic is that it's a bracket term that everybody uses differently, 405 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:30.400 or I would say almost everybody will have some shade, 406 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.599 some flavor of difference in their definition. I mean, if 407 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.440 you ask somebody who just joined I don't know, a 408 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.720 wick and coven and somebody who's been in the Golden 409 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.359 Dawn for three weeks, and then you talk to some 410 00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.720 solo practitioner, I don't in the forest in Germany who's 411 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.839 been like reconstructing PGM spells for thirty years or whatever. Like, 412 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:55.000 They're all going to have a different idea of what 413 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.960 magic is. And so much of it is really in 414 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.519 the phenomenology. It's in the actual experience of doing the 415 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.119 ritual and then the way that the universe speaks back 416 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.160 to you and and you know, you get to test 417 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.279 and see your results. Uh. But I would say, yeah, 418 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.279 to Jamie's point, we're talking about magic as distinct, let's 419 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.640 let's let's you know, I like the Greek sort of 420 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.759 wealth of terminology, but maybe let's let's let's boil it 421 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:23.319 down for the sake of making it manageable in a 422 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.680 conversation you have. And this comes down to, you know, 423 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.240 uh what really Skinner was the guy who set this 424 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.319 in motion, uh with with his techniques of Greco Egyptian magic. 425 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:35.640 Uh. 426 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:40.240 That was his his doctoral thesis. And he starts saying, yeah, well, 427 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:45.240 you can't call everything in here magic because to him, 428 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.359 religious stuff stuff that we're talking about, the analogic stuff like, 429 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.359 for instance, for him, the Mythris liturgy, right, and this 430 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.400 this this kind of vision of assent uh and the 431 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:00.880 the sort of taking in of the race of Helios 432 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:04.160 that we find in the myth or so that for him, 433 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.400 for Skinner, it's not that's not magic. Magic for him 434 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:12.920 is is different. But I would say that we have 435 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:17.799 magic as a technology or a techne. It's a craft. 436 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.599 Magic is a technology. You can use it for sorcery. 437 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:24.400 You can use it for conjuration, you can use it 438 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:29.240 to commune with with angelic forces or elemental forces. But 439 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.359 I would say that on the simplest kind of poll 440 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.319 you have, let's let's maybe talk about it in in 441 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.680 like in a Grippin context, you have elemental or natural 442 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.680 magic that a lot of that is what's going to 443 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.079 be more familiar to Wickens and two and to people 444 00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:49.119 that are more I would say, of a nature based 445 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.599 sort of thing, you have uh, you know, celestial magic, 446 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.920 which I think goes both works both ways, and then 447 00:26:55.960 --> 00:27:00.160 you have you know, I would I would include divine 448 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.200 the divine magic, obviously incorporating the celestial because that's kind of, 449 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.200 so to speak, analogically, how you get there. That's that's 450 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.920 theurgic uh in nature, which is you know, for me, 451 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.920 theogy can be defined as not just God working. But 452 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.839 let's say a more practical definition could be, And you 453 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:23.680 tell me if you agree with this, the technology of 454 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:28.920 magic applied to spiritual assent, or let's say, the evolution 455 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:29.559 of the soul. 456 00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:37.839 Yeah, I mean I think as differential differentiated from something 457 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.680 like theoria, which is just contemplative, right, So as opposed 458 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:46.920 to being this contemplative philosophical exercise, theogy could, I think 459 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:51.200 be considered because of things like synthemta and symbola, which 460 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:56.400 are signatures and tokens, and these these correspondences and virtues, 461 00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:58.400 as a gripple would say, in the in the sub 462 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.079 lunary sphere where we are the earth and the elements 463 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:06.640 and things. But yeah, theorgy making use theogy as a techne, 464 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:13.640 making use of these these sort of possibilities through the 465 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.039 chain of being, you know. And maybe that's something that 466 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:20.000 I think's worth talking about is all of these people 467 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:24.559 from the ancient Greeks and you know, the hell the 468 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:28.720 Hellenistic period, all the way through the medieval Perso Arabic, 469 00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:34.200 the Renaissance, particularly people like Ficino and Agrippa after him. 470 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.440 All of these people are making use of a chain 471 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:40.039 and ike you were just kind of talking about it 472 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:43.200 a few minutes ago. How you know, things sort of 473 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.759 if we're working with the gods, let's say they're beyond 474 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.839 the fixed stars in the zodiac. They're beyond the firmament, 475 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.960 the canopy of the stars. So when we're dealing with them, 476 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:59.119 we're trying to theoretically, particularly we're drawing down so we 477 00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:05.799 have to have sympathetic resonant sort of attractors down here, 478 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.160 depending on what which chain or series or seer i 479 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.359 that we're that we're operating with. So typically you go 480 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.240 through each of the seven visible planets, the ancient's new 481 00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.599 seven planets that were visible, and they called the Luminari's 482 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.319 planets as well, the luminaries being the Sun and the Moon. 483 00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:27.279 They're considered planets because their planet there they wander, They 484 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:29.720 don't follow the fixed stars in the zodiac. They move 485 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:33.960 against that canopy, in fact, in the other direction. So 486 00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:39.000 that's that's Plato's the different and the same, you know anyway, 487 00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:43.480 But but you so you figure out what the operation is. 488 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:45.920 I think this is definitely worth talking about. This is 489 00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.440 astrological magic one on one. This is bedrock. Here is 490 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:51.559 like you figure out what operation you want to do. 491 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:54.920 And let's say it's a love you're making a love talisman. 492 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.720 You want somebody to fall in love with you. Clearly 493 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.759 you go through Venus, right, Goddess of love, of aphrodity, 494 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:05.599 ishtar or whatever, and and you So for me, I 495 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.799 use the color green, which is a queen scale golden 496 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.039 dawn thing. I just like the color green for Venus. 497 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.039 And it's like the the the you know, copper turns 498 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.319 green when it's exposed to the air or whatever. 499 00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:19.640 Yeah, so. 500 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:25.640 Yeah, exactly. So So then you would use the appropriate 501 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.039 like frank concense is one you can use, in fact, 502 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:34.799 the orphic hymns I think for for venuses, frankncense, green candle, 503 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:40.440 maybe a green altar cloth. You might use rose. Petals 504 00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:44.519 are nice for a couple of reasons, because roses are Venusian, 505 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.319 but also petals themselves are Venusian. They're the Venusian part 506 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:51.400 of the plant, you know, whereas the thorns would be 507 00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:55.039 the marshall part, and if there's any berries they would 508 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.400 be the Jubiterarian part. The sap would be solar that 509 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:02.759 you know what I mean. So so you you stack 510 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.839 all these symptomata or synthemata, and that attracts that that 511 00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:13.079 engages that chain, that that golden chain, you know, that 512 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:17.200 that connects you're going through Venus to these sort of 513 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.880 idea of Venus, the form of Venus beyond the fixed 514 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.119 stars in the zodiac. This any attic sort of for 515 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.599 this noetic Venus, Right, it's just like Plato's forms are 516 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.599 up there, they're intellectual sort of entities. 517 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:33.799 Right. 518 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.720 So, and you're using this planet Venus as sort of 519 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:42.519 an intermediary. And uh, just as the sun is considered 520 00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:47.880 like the heart in man, the sun is like in 521 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.680 between this this noetic sun, this no etic light and 522 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.359 and man's heart, which is the sun inside of man. 523 00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.960 And you know, so there's this meso cosmic activity that's 524 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.960 that's planetary. And I think that's important to say, is 525 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:11.359 like when you do an astrological magical operation, you're engaging 526 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.839 whatever chain that is depending on the want or need 527 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:17.559 of the magician here. 528 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:21.400 Yeah, yeah, And I think an important part in that 529 00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.640 that probably most people don't even need to know. But 530 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:26.519 I'd say, if you're if you're working like me in 531 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:27.960 in a bit of a little bit more of a 532 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:34.680 neo platonic or theogic milieu. Yeah, you the plant, the 533 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:40.039 planets themselves, the physical you know, the mundane spheres of 534 00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:45.519 the planets are technically considered the bodies of the gods. 535 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:46.359 Uh. 536 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.160 This is one of the sticking points that Porphyry has, 537 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.559 you know, or at least ostensibly he has with with Iamlicus. 538 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:57.839 He writes to him and he basically says, you know, okay, 539 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.279 so spiritual beings aren't supposed to have bodies. Things that 540 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:05.880 have bodies are are lower on the totem pole. So, 541 00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.240 I mean a diamond has like an ethereal body. So 542 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.000 you're telling me that that if if if a god's 543 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.039 body is the planet, then it's got to be lower 544 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:18.960 on that scale than a diamond. And the Anloch just 545 00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:23.839 kind of collapse back, and he's like, we are tethered, 546 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.279 our souls are tethered to our bodies. They're not in 547 00:33:28.359 --> 00:33:34.119 that position. They move their bodies intellectually from afar. So 548 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.880 it it's yeah, it's very much so like a physical 549 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:43.119 and actual mundane grounding point that that that noetic intelligence 550 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:48.240 of the god is like at a distance, you know, uh, 551 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.839 setting to order. And I think that that's that's a 552 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:56.279 huge part of talking about this is talking about how, 553 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:03.000 you know, the main thing, even even working with something 554 00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:07.279 in like like the Hermetic text. The main reason why 555 00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:13.000 there's this preoccupation with astrology in magic is because it's 556 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.840 it's literally it is the being of the cosmos. It 557 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:20.079 is the wheelwork of existence. And you know, I've said 558 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.800 it before, the ancients didn't have digital clocks, they didn't 559 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.679 have wall clocks. You know, it was you know, you know, 560 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:30.840 all the way all the way back. Let's say in prehistory, 561 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:35.840 you'd go outside, what determines like whether or not you 562 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:38.960 should stay awake or go to sleep. Where the sun is, 563 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.719 what determines whether or not you should keep warm or 564 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.719 take you know, take layers off. Where the sun is, 565 00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:49.400 you know, what determines whether or not like the tide 566 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:52.280 is going to swell and you may drown the moon. 567 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:58.239 So all of the apparent causality, it appeared to them 568 00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.400 to be all up there, like so this gigantic machine 569 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:05.960 could be viewed in motion and we could see its 570 00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:09.239 effects here. So that's that's you know, I think that 571 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:14.840 that's really really important also for grounding. For grounding, I 572 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.719 think that the person is trying to wrap their head 573 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:21.239 around astrology and magic is getting them into that that 574 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:26.599 worldview of understanding, like you know, they were looking at 575 00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:31.039 they were trying to observe, like why is this stuff changing? 576 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:34.280 Why are these patterns existing? And we could go and 577 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.880 do a whole side tangent about the underlying why, you know, 578 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:42.400 But I think I think a better kind of pivot 579 00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.800 would be maybe this I'd like to ask Jamie, like, 580 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.320 if I have it right, sort of the astrological practice 581 00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:57.000 really starts with omenik and mundane astrology in ancient Iranian region, 582 00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:58.719 correct Mesopotamia? 583 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.119 Yeah, yeah, they had like regal astrology. Basically the astrology 584 00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.760 wasn't for individuals. It was it was for the king 585 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.039 and for the kingdom. You know, it was a royal 586 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:15.679 art that was you know, used specifically for that. It 587 00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:21.719 didn't become sort of natalized, you know, or individualized until 588 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:24.760 the Hellenistic era. In fact, I want to say the 589 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:27.800 first chart that we have is like four to ten 590 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:33.719 BCE is the first the first nativity that we found, 591 00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:38.360 a Hellenistic nativity. So you know, one thing though that 592 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.639 you were you made me think of that. I like 593 00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:46.599 this idea of the demonstrable causal effects of the planets 594 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.559 and that being something that clearly that the ancient saw 595 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:56.039 and definitely informed some of their early conception of astrology, 596 00:36:56.599 --> 00:37:02.760 or at least domanic proto astrology. There's also there's also 597 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.000 this idea of the moon throughout astrology being the distributor. 598 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.760 And I love this idea and it's something that I 599 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.480 think even astrological magicians sometimes, you know, definitely at their 600 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:19.679 peril avoid you know, is the importance of the moon 601 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:23.360 in a chart, whether like let's say, like my example, 602 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:26.440 before you're working on a venus talisman or something. If 603 00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:29.880 that moon is waning, then the love is waning. You know, 604 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:33.280 the position of the moon and the condition of the 605 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:39.199 moon is really important. And simply because bringing Aristotle back 606 00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:43.079 into it and told of me uh through him. But 607 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:49.000 how when when that effluence and I never use the 608 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.480 word energy here because it's metaphysical, it's not physical. We're 609 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.719 talking about metaphysics here, not physics, when that effluence is 610 00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.119 coming down through the seven planetary sphere and taking on 611 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.280 its coloration at each of those or it's it's accretions, 612 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.119 just like a human soul does when it comes down 613 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:11.199 through the spheres. Uh. See the myth of her Or 614 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:16.320 et cetera. At the at the sphere of the moon, 615 00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:19.960 the sub lunary sphere, the moon herself, she's the nurse 616 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:24.320 of the Earth. She's the distributor, she's the dispenser of fortune. 617 00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:30.199 Down here, she's she's the you know, fastest moving planet 618 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:37.039 air quotes uh and and she distributes. So it's very 619 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:40.800 important that no matter what what the operation is, whether 620 00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:46.000 it's a wealth jubiterarian thing, whether it's a mite Mars thing, 621 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:50.519 aggression or some you know, war bellicost sort of operation, 622 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:56.239 whether it's transportation, communication, mercurial, whatever it is, you want 623 00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:59.880 the moon to be. You want the moon to reflect 624 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.639 that operation symbolically. You know, if you're giving up smoking, 625 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.679 you want a waning moon. You know, like tobacco is 626 00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:11.760 ruled by Mars. So if you have Mars in a 627 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:15.679 bad you know, a bad placement for Mars and you 628 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:19.360 have a have a waning moon, that might help you, 629 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.519 you know if along with other factors, that might help 630 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.440 you to create a talisman for non smoking. Just off 631 00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:27.480 the top of my head, something like that. But that's 632 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.239 the basic nuts and bolts, Jamie. 633 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:32.840 A good example is the orphic hymns you could find 634 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:36.320 in there they're talking about blessing these rights. So in 635 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.519 a lot of ways you could see the orphic hymns 636 00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:40.920 gig a part of this sort of magic, and they 637 00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.800 describe exactly what you're talking about with the different gods, goddesses, 638 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.920 planets all together sort of being sug about in a 639 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:51.679 way that is supposed to be a blessing of the 640 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.519 rights that they're performing. 641 00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:56.280 So for sure, yeah, yeah, I use them all the 642 00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:00.159 time that Thomas Taylor once all the pretty mu which 643 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:01.760 every operation I do, I use those. 644 00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:04.360 And and the thing is too, you know, in the 645 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:09.400 according to that the ancient rationale, the sub lunary sphere 646 00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.639 is the only thing that can change, you know. So 647 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:18.000 it's it's that's everything else is is entirely ordered and unerring. 648 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.559 Even though they have you know, retrograde motion and it's erratic, 649 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:26.079 it's still predictable. But but everything under the from the 650 00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:30.639 moon down is what is acted upon. But yeah, you 651 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:35.440 look at you look at like uh Lily, you look 652 00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:37.519 at Lily's uh you know, I think Book two of 653 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:41.800 Christian Astrologies, all his horrory stuff. Uh, he's got this 654 00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:44.599 thing that we used in the Golden Dawn. We use 655 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:47.920 Lily's considerations before judgment when you look at a horror 656 00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:50.320 and the main thing that he's driving home is like, 657 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:56.920 you know, Nick and I swear, oh yeah, don't do 658 00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.800 any don't read this chart. If the moon is fucked, 659 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:02.639 you know, like like it's like if you're if you're 660 00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:05.760 trying to do electional or horrory. And and he's got 661 00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:09.719 the via combusta. I think the general thing is like, 662 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:11.800 if the moon or or if the moon or or 663 00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:15.079 the you know, the planet the lord of the significator 664 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.840 is between fifteen degrees of scorpio and libra, don't do anything. 665 00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:24.199 But really the main emphasis in his considerations is, uh, 666 00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.760 is the moon. And I've always found that interesting. Uh 667 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.239 two kind of tack I guess, tack on a little 668 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.039 bit to what HG. 669 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:32.840 HG. 670 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:37.000 Wells up there as was saying, was, uh, you know, they, 671 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:42.760 particularly in theogy, they looked at they looked at Hakate 672 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:48.280 as the goddess, the triform goddess of magic, of magic, 673 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.079 and she was a central central she was the main 674 00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:55.159 god god or the deity for the you know, the 675 00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:59.960 the the particularly the late antique theogists al Gai Susdavini's 676 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:03.599 he talks about that quite a bit, and they corresponded 677 00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:05.960 to her. They corresponded her to the moon, like the 678 00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:10.039 you know, the not just the dark moon, but the 679 00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:14.519 moon in all of her aspect, because she's triformed, so 680 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:17.880 that that's always been God. There's always been an interesting 681 00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:19.480 interface for the Moon for me. 682 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.159 I have a quick sorry, I yeah, she's in the oracle, 683 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:25.679 the Albean oracles, right. 684 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.079 Yes, yeah, she's the formless fire actually that they talk about. 685 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.760 Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt there. I have a question, 686 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.440 I guess for both Jamie and Ike if you can 687 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:42.760 feel that however you want. It's a bit normy question 688 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:46.760 because obviously I look from Asia, like obviously Tondraic Buddhism 689 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:51.119 and Taoism, and like East Asian sort of ontology is 690 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.679 much more concretely than anything. Then I'm not really familiar 691 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:57.679 with the Greek stuff, as I've told like many times. So, 692 00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:02.480 but you know, how do Jamie, how do they reconcile 693 00:43:03.159 --> 00:43:08.079 the later sort of mogalized Persian texts that include the 694 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:13.199 Nine Luminaries of like the Artarviodas, like including Rahu Katu. 695 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.280 How is there a way to reconcile that like with 696 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:22.639 Western magic or without necessarily including the the outer three, 697 00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:25.880 or I'm very comfortable using the outer three, like I 698 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:30.400 like Uranus for Rahu and Katu is obviously Neptunian in 699 00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.239 a way, and so I'm comfortable doing that, but some 700 00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:35.840 people are not. Is there like a way that either 701 00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:39.519 of you sort of reconcile those cosmologies? And I think 702 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:41.599 it also ties in with the moon of course, because 703 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.199 you know, so many of the systems use that nine 704 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.360 planetary model or at least the kind of idea, and 705 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.880 like I brought up the sub luninary like changing that world, well, 706 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.800 definitely the ysoda or the moon is definitely the place 707 00:43:55.840 --> 00:44:00.599 for reconciliation, rectification and like bringing things together, you know, 708 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:01.800 come off the sun. 709 00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:02.519 You could say. 710 00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:09.400 Yes, go on, no, please go Well I was was 711 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.960 gonna say, I don't, I don't if we're talking like 712 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:18.079 Rahu ketu type of thing that now we're I feel like, 713 00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.679 correct me if I'm wrong? Are we getting into uh 714 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:23.559 the Vedic terminology for that stuff. 715 00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:29.559 So I I practice contric astrology, so it's very different. 716 00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:32.960 It's much closer to like suffer yes ora, Like it's 717 00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:38.199 more you're the planetary bodies or the Grahas, the Graspers, 718 00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:42.480 they're really in a cosmological position of like minor arcons, 719 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:45.599 is how we would understand it. So there are ways 720 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:48.800 to appease them, or in some cases, like the more 721 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:51.920 deeper into tentre that you go, whether Indian or Buddhist, 722 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:56.480 there are ways to completely clear negative planetary charts, as 723 00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.760 I've heard I talk about in the more Hellenistic terms before. 724 00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:03.920 So yes, it is the North and South, not to 725 00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:08.039 the moon. But they actually are considered like luminaries, like 726 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:10.840 they're considered to be in the physical sky. They're just 727 00:45:10.920 --> 00:45:14.320 shadow planets, and so I think you can liken them 728 00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:17.719 also to the outer thro the two of the outer 729 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:20.599 three that I mentioned. But I also you have to 730 00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:23.480 kind of understand like how they work with certain deities, 731 00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:26.760 because only certain there's very few deities that can clear 732 00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:31.480 Rahu Katu. Rahu particularly loves to be both Venus and 733 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:34.519 Shawnee or Saturn, like he loves to pretend to be 734 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.480 those two things, because those are very densifying kinds of planets, 735 00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:41.760 like to bring things into material reality, and Katu loves 736 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.519 to be both. Ioway think of it as like Hessaid 737 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:49.800 and Va, but Mars and Jupiter because Mars is like 738 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:53.760 the annihilating flame, right, so he likes to bring people 739 00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.320 there so they kind of annihilate, because that's what KATU's 740 00:45:57.320 --> 00:45:59.559 real desire is to get out of the form. 741 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.519 Well, I don't I would say this. I don't work 742 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:08.079 with the the Vedic or the Joe Tisch model. I'm 743 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.400 not familiar with. It's it's not I've I've found that. 744 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:13.000 I I have found what I need in in the 745 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:18.239 the Western model of seven planetary spheres or seven planets, 746 00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:23.159 eight eight spheres, nine depending and the the I would 747 00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:28.119 say predominantly Western model of ascent. What you're talking about 748 00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:31.400 sounds very fascinating, But I'm interested to know if Jamie's 749 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:33.119 got a little bit more footing in that world. 750 00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.760 Well, I know Rahu and Kattu as far as I know. 751 00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.719 I'm no expert on j Otis or Vedic astrology, but 752 00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:46.599 I recognize them as the lunar nodes, and I don't 753 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:50.400 know them any other way. But the lunar nodes in 754 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:55.760 you know, Hellenistic astrology, in traditional astrology, let's say, all 755 00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:00.159 the way through to the Elizabethan Hero with lily Is, 756 00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:05.320 the lunar nodes are essentially you might say the north 757 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:08.320 lunar node turns up the volume. It's sort of a 758 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.360 not a predominator, but it kind of it increases. It 759 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:16.719 tends to increase, whereas the south lunar node tends to decrease. 760 00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:23.400 So if you have a planet conjunct the the Jupiter, 761 00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:26.400 let's say, Jupiter conjunct the North node, it's going to 762 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.920 turn up the Jupiter vibes a little bit, you know, 763 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:33.199 to put it colloquially, whereas the South note is going 764 00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:37.239 to turn down the volume on that planet's expression. Now, 765 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.000 of course that's tempered by other things. If you get 766 00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:43.559 Jupiter in cancer where he's exalted, then you know, and 767 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.320 you got the and he's conjunct the north lunar node, 768 00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:48.519 you're going to get Jupiter to the max pretty much, 769 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.840 you know. So it's like there's other factors. And then 770 00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.039 you got aspects to look at, you know, and you 771 00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:57.000 got his despositor to look at, and is he you know, 772 00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.719 in aspect to his despositor. There's just a million things. 773 00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.360 You could literally drive yourself crazy, and you know, so 774 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.119 that's one thing, but then there's and you could drive 775 00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:10.840 yourself crazy with elections, like I want to elect a 776 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.519 good time to brush my teeth. You know, I got 777 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.199 to elect a good time to leave the house, or 778 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:18.480 I'm fucked. Everything's my whole life is ruined, you know, 779 00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.960 Like you know, I could see if it's a wedding 780 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.639 or a job interview, but some people get into the 781 00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.679 weeds where it's like, you don't need to elect for that, man, 782 00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:30.039 I mean, you're gonna be okay. 783 00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:33.559 And even sometimes if you do elect, things will happen 784 00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.199 and then you have to reschedule, like let's say, for 785 00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:38.920 a job interview or something you elected, and then it 786 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:40.920 gets to the time the guys have to reschedule for 787 00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:41.800 whatever reason. 788 00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:43.599 So you should be able to see that in the 789 00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:48.760 chart though, yeah, yeah, yeah you should. I've done a 790 00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:50.920 bunch of election all over the last couple of years, 791 00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.280 and you do drive yourself nuts. But here's the comforting thing, 792 00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:57.519 and this is how I look at the the Also, 793 00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:00.960 this is how a lot of like somebody like Jamie 794 00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:05.639 who does astrology professionally full you know, uh to for 795 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.639 what I would consider to be like full time for 796 00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:12.559 somebody who's now retired. But they're gonna approach it way 797 00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:16.920 differently than me. I know, because I've driven myself nuts 798 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:24.159 so many times, like you, limitations are actually good. Limitations 799 00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:28.239 are good because what they do is they subordinate this 800 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:32.480 kind of lust that we have for You know, if 801 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.679 you're trying to do a magic ritual and elect elect 802 00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.719 for something, you you obviously have a lot of skin 803 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.360 in the game, You've got a lot, You're in it. 804 00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:44.360 You know, you're invested, You're you're doing a ritual for it. 805 00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:50.079 But that those those sort of impediments and those those 806 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.400 uh inhibitions to you getting exactly what you want, I 807 00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.440 think are actually a good thing. They leave right because 808 00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:03.599 part of magic is learning how free will and determinism 809 00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:08.880 uh intersect, and I think that they can really really 810 00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:12.599 benefit each other free will without any any four walls 811 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.760 around it. We know what that turns into, you know, 812 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.719 so I think that's really important. That's why the moon 813 00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.679 is really I look at the moon, the lord of 814 00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:24.320 the ascendant, the lunar and or the the north and 815 00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:29.320 south nodes will normally tell me something to do with 816 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:32.800 a lot of times in this horrory thing, the beginning 817 00:50:32.840 --> 00:50:35.880 and the end of the matter, uh, and and how 818 00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:37.599 it's going to start, you know, that kind of meme, 819 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.800 how it started and how it's going type of thing 820 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:45.920 along with the symphony of other information. So there are 821 00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:50.639 also like really really major detractors from from being able 822 00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.239 to you know, if I have you know, a significator 823 00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:58.880 who's whose uh you know, rulership is or whose lord 824 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:04.280 is is Jupiter and he's afflicted, I'm gonna wait, uh 825 00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:07.360 and and and again. Sometimes that can be a good thing. 826 00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:10.559 So I would, you know, I would encourage people that 827 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:14.639 are interested in particularly like electional and horrory, like you know, 828 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:19.079 you gotta be okay with with getting what you can get, 829 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:21.559 you know, and making the best out of that. 830 00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.119 Well, I agree, I feel go on, go ahead, Jim. 831 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:32.599 I feel like we kind of left jin the Restigen's 832 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:37.079 question unanswered, which was, uh, what that had to do 833 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:41.840 with maybe the lunar mansions? Then Chatras was set. 834 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:44.519 Appreciate it. 835 00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:49.760 Yes, you see, pretty Yeah, there's there's heavy use of 836 00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:52.920 those in the Picka tricks. You've seen the lunar mansions. 837 00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:58.480 They're they're really big in the Perso Arabic tradition. Now, 838 00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:00.280 a lot of I don't know if you know this, 839 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:03.440 but a lot of the Coots and the Veda Christrology 840 00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:07.400 comes from a document called the yavana Jadica. Have you 841 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:07.800 heard of that? 842 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.840 I have that this is the strong part of my 843 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:17.480 knowledge basis rather than anything Hellenistic or even like the 844 00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:19.079 Hellenistic astrology at all. 845 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.840 So that's sort of why I like, yes, I agree 846 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:24.000 with you. 847 00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:27.559 What I was going to say was was you know 848 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:31.920 more Hellenistic Christrology than you think, because the Avantajadica is 849 00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:36.320 the is to say, it's the basically the nativities of 850 00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:40.119 the Greeks is what the word means. So it's they 851 00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:43.440 when they learned how to navigate the Red Sea, uh, 852 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:48.760 you know, for trade, and they went to the Indian subcontinent, 853 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.400 they brought a document called the Avana Jadica, which was 854 00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:57.480 Hellenistic astrology at that time, and that that sort of 855 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:04.280 informed there the existing lunar mansion based NOx Chatra proto astrology. 856 00:53:05.039 --> 00:53:09.960 And then all of a sudden, you know, vedach astrology 857 00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:14.400 has the angles, the the ascendant and descend it the 858 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:19.679 m C and the ic the kentron, you know, so 859 00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:22.440 there's if you look when they talk about the deccans 860 00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:26.239 and the angles and stuff like that, these are essentially 861 00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:36.679 Indianized transliterations of of Hellenistic astrological Greek terms you know 862 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:41.199 that that it's very like whatether they call the deccans again, 863 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:45.000 it's like decnas or Dreknas or something like that. It's 864 00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.360 it's basically the deccans and the and the kentrons, which 865 00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:52.880 are the steaks. The angles are called like kendra or 866 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:56.760 something like that. So it's so it's you. I'm just 867 00:53:56.840 --> 00:54:00.639 saying this to tell you, you know more Hellenistic astrology. 868 00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:04.960 Then you think if you know giotitischer rada christrology, because 869 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:11.039 it's really an importation of Hellenistic Christrology. I mean, other 870 00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:14.920 than they're no chatras, they're lunar mansions, which who knows 871 00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:18.639 how they shared those with the Persians the person Arabic tradition. 872 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:24.440 No, I appreciate that, Jamie. I know there's a lot 873 00:54:24.519 --> 00:54:27.559 of borrowing. There's a lot of syncretism. I mean, TNTRA 874 00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:30.559 is all about syncretism. Now I don't practice, Joe Tisha. 875 00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:35.559 I didn't mean to like misarticulate that if that's like 876 00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:39.480 I implied that I only tantric astrology, I understand, and 877 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:43.159 I always say that what is that? So it's found 878 00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:46.079 in it's basically in all the higher yoga texts. They 879 00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:50.119 all have their own sort of cosmological ordering, cosmological understanding 880 00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:51.559 and cosmological. 881 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:55.760 Magic and so like tree Luke de Soir, like you 882 00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:56.320 can look at the. 883 00:54:56.280 --> 00:54:59.599 Shre vigitechts or the color chakra is a very famous 884 00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:02.360 one from Burson Archive, and he taught they have a 885 00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:05.599 whole section on how it has its own section on 886 00:55:05.679 --> 00:55:09.719 cosmological magic, the or not culture not sorry, chakra Samvara 887 00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:15.440 Guya garba guya Samaja. All of these basically, like all 888 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:20.039 contract texts, basically have their own sort of cosmological and 889 00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:22.880 then ontological solutions for those cosmogical problems. 890 00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:27.039 Well, that's interesting. Email me some stuff, would you sure? 891 00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:29.719 I'd love to cool. Thank you. Thanks. 892 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:32.119 One thing I did want to ask. It's kind of 893 00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:35.400 a very basic question, but I even just bringing it 894 00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:37.360 up for even some of the listeners that really don't 895 00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:39.639 know what goes along with like ritual magic as well, 896 00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:42.599 when you're talking about I mean, I guess as we 897 00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:44.400 go along with astrological magic. 898 00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:44.920 Uh. 899 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.039 Probably also the same thing for me from my experience 900 00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:51.559 with planetary or elemental we were talking about the moon 901 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:55.119 a lot before. For me, depending if it was waxing 902 00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.719 and waning would also determine what I'm doing it because 903 00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:01.800 of the invoking of banishing. Would you also apply that 904 00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.559 type of idea to the way you guys would normally 905 00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:06.719 do your work with the stuff? 906 00:56:08.599 --> 00:56:11.679 Yeah, yeah, I would do. I do invo invo any 907 00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:15.880 vocations in the waxing period the only time I will 908 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:20.599 use the dark moon for something like that. Uh. And 909 00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.000 I use the full too, I know, I know a 910 00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.840 lot of a lot of like the solomonic stuff says 911 00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:28.480 in the Waxing and you see it in the PGM 912 00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:30.000 two in the wax thing, I used the full. I 913 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:31.880 find it. There's there's nothing wrong with the Full. But 914 00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:35.880 in the dark the only and the only sort of 915 00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:38.639 interface that I'll work with in the darkest hit Kata 916 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:43.920 because it's just a different aspect of for you know, 917 00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:49.559 the morethonic. She's not, She's not entirely sonic. I think 918 00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:53.039 people get get the wrong idea about k Kata being 919 00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:58.280 a an exclusively cothnic goddess. She oscillates, she encompasses all 920 00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:01.199 of them. But but for the most part, I will 921 00:57:01.320 --> 00:57:07.199 I'll only do avocational or invocational ceremonial in the waxing period. 922 00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:13.119 I not to derail You're like. 923 00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:16.039 About Hecate, but I think that you might actually find 924 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.280 this interesting. There's a grouping of Nitya goddesses. So these 925 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:23.280 are the sixteen or sometimes they're fifteen, sometimes they're seventeen, 926 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:26.519 depending on whether it's a what text it is. But 927 00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:31.400 they're a grouping of Dikini goddesses from Central India. But 928 00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:35.199 they're also found in obviously Newari and to Ven Buddhism, 929 00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:41.480 and they represent the phases of the lunar cycle specifically, 930 00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:45.159 like they it's different forms. It's not just like one goddess, 931 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.039 it's like all the number of the they're called the Daughters, 932 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:53.039 but they're related to obviously the grouping of Matracas, which 933 00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:55.639 are sometimes said to be the Pleiades, but sometimes they're 934 00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:58.440 also said to be the Big Dipper or the Little Dipper, 935 00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:00.599 again depending on the texts. 936 00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:04.800 Cool. I like the. 937 00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:10.199 I think in speaking of the pleats, there's I think 938 00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:15.159 in Chinese astrology they're called the seven Chicken Sisters. If 939 00:58:15.199 --> 00:58:17.599 I'm which I always thought was super cool. I wonder 940 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:19.159 what that story is. 941 00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:22.519 You know, I only know the Buddhist story, Ja Jamie, 942 00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.559 but I well, I will definitely research it after you 943 00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:26.159 bring it up. 944 00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:29.320 Now that you've said it, Yeah, I do have one. 945 00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:30.400 I thought it was interesting. 946 00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:33.960 Wait can I can I just derail the conversation for saying. 947 00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:35.519 I was? 948 00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:37.199 I just I don't know. I feel like I want 949 00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:39.159 to share this with our audience because it's a really 950 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:44.119 important piece of information. I recently found out that in 951 00:58:44.199 --> 00:58:49.519 the ebers Papyrus, which is an Egyptian medical papyrus, that 952 00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:57.320 right the a proctologist was the the the translation for 953 00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:02.119 the title they gave a proctologist was guardian of the Anus. 954 00:59:02.920 --> 00:59:07.239 And I just think everyone should know that. I just 955 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:11.480 wanted to I wanted everybody to have that and use it, 956 00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:12.760 you know, use it in your magic. 957 00:59:12.840 --> 00:59:13.159 I don't know. 958 00:59:13.360 --> 00:59:17.360 That's that's actually super interesting, and it's timely for me 959 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:20.960 because I had a visit recently. Really, you know, I'm 960 00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.760 getting to be of that age now. I don't want 961 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.239 to get into detail, but I was a little worried 962 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:29.039 at the visit because the practologists had both of his 963 00:59:29.159 --> 00:59:33.079 hands on my shoulders. Oh, I was like and I 964 00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:35.719 was like, I was like, what is that your your 965 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:41.159 wedding ring? And it's like, no, it's my watch. He said, 966 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:42.960 I love you. 967 00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:46.280 I love you, I love doing anything with you. 968 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:52.559 Watch you know, this made me think of an actual 969 00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:55.559 question now about like how to how do you guys 970 00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:58.599 use the strugley in the medical sense of let's say, 971 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:04.159 applying the connections between the house sign and planets whatever 972 01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:07.719 to the parts of the body or to elect like 973 01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:11.559 if I'm electing a surgery or whatever medical operation, because 974 01:00:11.840 --> 01:00:15.239 I'm pretty sure they used the lot before, but like 975 01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.440 nowadays in the West, it's completely disregarded. Right, but uh, Christian, 976 01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:21.760 if you guys ever worked. 977 01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:28.920 With this kind of thing or research, Jimmy, you want 978 01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:29.920 to take a stab at that. 979 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:35.679 Yeah, yeah, So melothesia, right, Melothesia is an ancient doctrine. 980 01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:39.599 It's actually pre Hellenistic. This is a Mesopotamian doctrine that 981 01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:43.880 it's called the zodiacal man and basically aries is the 982 01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:47.239 top of the head. Uh, Taurus is the Arias is 983 01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:50.400 the whole head. The neck sort of area is Taurus, 984 01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:54.480 and then you know, Gemini are the arms, and cancer 985 01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:58.960 is the sort of chest and basically all the way 986 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:01.360 down to the feet which are Pisces the two fish. 987 01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:06.320 You know, So the the zodiac just goes down the 988 01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:12.800 body and then the the planets are actually they're like 989 01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:16.800 organs in the body. So for the planets, I think 990 01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:20.679 Venus is the liver or no Venus is the kidneys 991 01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:28.239 and the basically genitalia. Mars is the gall bladder and intestines. 992 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:34.880 I think, Uh, Saturn is like the skin and bones 993 01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:41.159 and spleen. Uh. Jupiter is the liver and the blood 994 01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:46.159 because he's sanguine. I don't quite remember all of them, 995 01:01:46.199 --> 01:01:47.760 but you see where I'm going with that. So the 996 01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:51.440 so the planets are the organs and the zodiac. The 997 01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:54.320 belt of the zodiac is the length of the human 998 01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:58.199 body from areas at the head to pisces at the feet. 999 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:02.440 And you when you're looking at a figure or a chart, 1000 01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:05.559 you would look at maybe the sixth house to see 1001 01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:10.119 for health and wellness and illness and things. I would 1002 01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:12.719 look first at the sixth house, maybe the condition of 1003 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.639 the lord of the sixth house. If the sixth house were, 1004 01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:24.039 you know, on the zodiac sign of say of say Scorpio, 1005 01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:28.079 it would be the privates area, you know. And if 1006 01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:34.000 you had, say Mars in Scorpio where he's the ruler 1007 01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:38.639 of Scorpio, you could say that you have well, you 1008 01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:40.800 could say that you have swelling or redness in the 1009 01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:45.599 generals or something like that or heat, you know, so 1010 01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:49.199 it's a yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty and 1011 01:02:49.360 --> 01:02:52.239 plus that moves around with perfections too, which is my 1012 01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:56.440 favorite time lord system, So where each each year of 1013 01:02:56.559 --> 01:03:00.679 life is a different house, you know, and basically you 1014 01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:02.679 just go around the wheel your whole life. You know, 1015 01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:07.440 it's different each time. And and and that that also 1016 01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:09.519 moves your sixth house, you know what I mean, because 1017 01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:12.559 if you're treating your perfected house as your first house 1018 01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:16.519 that year, you know, that moves your sixth house into 1019 01:03:16.599 --> 01:03:18.599 different regions of the body. And then when you have 1020 01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:21.480 planets there, those are the organs you know, and how 1021 01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.440 how they're Oh, somebody who's asking about the hermetic lots 1022 01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:31.480 part of spirit spirit as an accurate representation for the yes, 1023 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:33.760 I could see the part of spirit just to answer 1024 01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:39.280 aeros up real quick as people have associated that with 1025 01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:43.159 the personal dimone. But I like, look into Ibn Sina 1026 01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:51.199 and no, I'm sorry. Ibn Ezra and Masha La. Ibn 1027 01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:54.280 Ezra and Masha La have the most rigorous technique of 1028 01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:59.639 finding the the personal Dimone. It's really involved, though. You 1029 01:03:59.719 --> 01:04:01.840 got to put each of the planets in the five 1030 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:06.079 highlegal places it's too technical for this, but it's it's 1031 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:09.880 really cool and I think it's the most decisive method 1032 01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:12.440 of finding the personal diamond. Sorry for that digression. 1033 01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:17.360 Yeah, I mean my my my background in in that 1034 01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:19.559 kind of stuff actually is in Chinese medicine. 1035 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:20.239 Uh. 1036 01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.880 So the way that I will apply it, I actually 1037 01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:26.960 have a very i'd say a rich or a full 1038 01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:36.199 practice uh applying sort of astrological herbalism, uh in the 1039 01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:42.280 form of tinctures or or topicals, things of this nature, tease, 1040 01:04:42.519 --> 01:04:48.159 et cetera. Working much more in a homeopathic which like 1041 01:04:48.360 --> 01:04:53.039 cures like type of type of model. But yeah, I 1042 01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:57.159 I'm always looking at I'm a little bit of a hypochondria. 1043 01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:00.639 I'm pretty sure I've sent Jamie like charts about questions 1044 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:04.440 of my health and stuff before. But I'm always looking 1045 01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:07.639 at like six House transits and stuff like that to 1046 01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:12.519 see what's going on and even you know, Lord of 1047 01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:14.880 the Sixth, like, what's going on there, How's how's that 1048 01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:19.559 planet being aspected? What's going on there, what's applying there, 1049 01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:26.960 what's separating there. But astrological herbalism has been I would say, 1050 01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:30.920 like the last maybe like year has been really really 1051 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:35.000 big for me. We're putting together. My fiance and I 1052 01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:38.960 are are co author in a book called The Astrological 1053 01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:42.360 Gardener's Companion, and that's uh, that's gonna come out probably 1054 01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:44.920 at the end, I don't maybe the beginning of twenty 1055 01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:50.159 twenty seven. Maybe I don't know, but yeah, it's that. 1056 01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:53.920 That's usually how more so how I will approach it. 1057 01:05:54.039 --> 01:06:02.360 And then there's also certain uh preperations, like phylactory preparations, 1058 01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:05.639 were like, I'll this is more of a PGM technique, 1059 01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:10.159 but I will use the I would say a more 1060 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:14.800 uh uh, I use the sun for healing. Okay, so 1061 01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:20.400 I'm looking at what's going on solar solar wise, but 1062 01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:23.440 I will consecrate a What I'll do is I make 1063 01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:26.039 an ink. I have a recipe for making ink out 1064 01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:34.760 of myrrh and gum Arabic and uh natural colorations. I 1065 01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:38.239 will write out like a healing either something from the 1066 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:43.159 Psalms or something or from the Gospels, and I'll write 1067 01:06:43.239 --> 01:06:48.960 that in at the peak of that uh that election 1068 01:06:49.400 --> 01:06:54.400 in that in that time period, and I will roll 1069 01:06:54.440 --> 01:06:57.480 it up and I keep it in these little you 1070 01:06:57.519 --> 01:06:59.920 can get them for like eight dollars on Amazon. They're 1071 01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:06.239 like these little screw top uh, sorts of I'll see 1072 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:07.599 if I can grab one and show it to you 1073 01:07:07.639 --> 01:07:09.920 in a minute. But it's just this little screw top 1074 01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:12.360 container and they come in these really some of them 1075 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.239 come in really cool designs, like a mine's got a 1076 01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:18.239 uh like that Greek kind of like tessellated that that 1077 01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:21.199 border design on it, and you just slipped that in 1078 01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:26.079 there when you're feeling ill, you know, with this consecrated talismanic. 1079 01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:28.800 You know, you've prepared the ink, You've written it out 1080 01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:31.440 and sort of I sing it out as I write 1081 01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:35.400 it over and over like a mantra, and then I'll 1082 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:37.599 hang it around my neck until I feel better. 1083 01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:43.320 Nice, very cool, that's good stuff. Yeah. I love the 1084 01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:47.719 tincture making process. In fact, I've got a venus tincture 1085 01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:51.239 going right now in it's in the it's been in 1086 01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:55.559 my broiler, the salts after the uh the U. I 1087 01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:59.639 extracted the the sulfur in the mercury, so the issue 1088 01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:02.679 and the alcohol fisheric. 1089 01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:05.199 Yeah, yeah, so I have the I have a. 1090 01:08:06.800 --> 01:08:08.840 Yeah, I have the salts in the broiler right now. 1091 01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:10.880 They've been under there so every time I cook something, 1092 01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:13.119 because it's so hard to get them white. It's so 1093 01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:15.440 hard to get white salts without a torch. I don't 1094 01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:18.079 have a torch. Yeah, I got them. 1095 01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:21.119 I've got the burner that gets up to two hundred 1096 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:23.119 thousand BTUs. It's like the only way to do it. 1097 01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:26.920 Yeah, yeah, I gotta get I gotta get better gear. 1098 01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:28.359 What so what what? 1099 01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:33.000 What's what's your plant material that you're using, damiana or I. 1100 01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:36.800 Used rose petals for this venus one beautiful Yeah, and 1101 01:08:36.920 --> 01:08:41.880 I used I used universal vegetable mercury, i e. Grain alcohol, 1102 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:44.159 because how much alcohol are you going to get out 1103 01:08:44.199 --> 01:08:48.159 of you know, probably forty rose petals, not a ton. 1104 01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:52.199 But uh so you have to use I mean it's 1105 01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:53.840 still same kingdom, same mercury. 1106 01:08:54.239 --> 01:08:54.439 Yeah. 1107 01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:58.279 So I think it's perfectly back to a lot of 1108 01:08:58.319 --> 01:09:02.560 alchemists would have used. They would have used brandy long ago. 1109 01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:03.000 You know. 1110 01:09:03.680 --> 01:09:08.720 Yeah, it's just just yeah, but uh but yeah, that's 1111 01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:12.720 all I mean. Paracelsis using that for using astrology for 1112 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:18.479 his his spajarch making. I think it's a yeah, and 1113 01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:23.520 then using that in the in the medical astrolog yatro 1114 01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:28.640 mathematics in the medical context, I think is uh. I 1115 01:09:28.720 --> 01:09:31.479 think it's really great. I mean, of course, as a 1116 01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:34.640 professional astrologer, though you got to be careful because you 1117 01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:36.840 tell people, oh, just don't worry about it, go take 1118 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:39.520 this tincture, you know, and then all of a sudden, 1119 01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:42.800 you know, somebody's somebody's heart falls out their ass, and 1120 01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:49.039 and then you're you're on the on the hook or somehow, 1121 01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:52.600 you know, their mom's like, their mom's like, uh, you've 1122 01:09:52.640 --> 01:09:54.439 made my son's heart fall off his ass. 1123 01:09:56.199 --> 01:09:59.239 That is not guardian of Vianus stuff. Okay, that's not 1124 01:09:59.399 --> 01:10:01.760 being a guardian of the as If hearts are falling 1125 01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:03.199 out of it, then we're in trouble. 1126 01:10:05.479 --> 01:10:07.720 Well, oh, just real quick, I just want to be 1127 01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:10.880 a shameless plug here. You guys might actually be interested 1128 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:14.039 in it. But next Friday, I do have something I 1129 01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:16.800 thought was really interesting. I cover like, you know, magical herbs, 1130 01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:18.439 you know, the stuff that we would normally think, you know, 1131 01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:21.199 that we use in witchcraft or ceremony magic, and I 1132 01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:25.199 have the effects of them on our cranial nerves. Some 1133 01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:27.960 actual real interesting stuff with that, to tell you the truth, 1134 01:10:28.359 --> 01:10:31.159 some of them are like nerve. Well, some of them 1135 01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:34.479 it's like what it's kind of known to do magically. 1136 01:10:34.520 --> 01:10:36.880 It's almost like all right, it's actually kind of recreating 1137 01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:40.800 that in your body with in inhaling it it's hard 1138 01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:42.439 to explain, but some of them we kind of see like, 1139 01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:45.439 oh wow, all right, it's interesting for sure. 1140 01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:53.920 It doesn't sound that hard to explain. I've inhaled marijuana before, Yeah, exactly. 1141 01:10:53.960 --> 01:10:57.560 So Errosid I have a show on Mondays where we're 1142 01:10:57.720 --> 01:11:01.720 talking about spajerics and making them whatnot. But it's pretty interesting. 1143 01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:05.880 She was talking about a Venus love spell I guess 1144 01:11:06.279 --> 01:11:09.479 Jupiter over our heart and relying on her finger related 1145 01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:12.119 to Leo and the Night House of Venus or something. 1146 01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:13.399 Mm hmmm. 1147 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:15.439 One question. 1148 01:11:15.479 --> 01:11:18.079 I also say, oh, sorry, yeah, we just asked this 1149 01:11:18.359 --> 01:11:21.159 question too real quick, and I'm pretty sure that I'm 1150 01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:24.319 gonna get like, probably not the best idea, but from 1151 01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:27.640 like my experience, and I didn't do too much esological magic, 1152 01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:30.720 but when I did, I like kind of use the 1153 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:33.960 hexagram ritual. I'm assuming you guys probably don't even I mean, 1154 01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:37.319 would that be something you'd still use now for that 1155 01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:40.319 type of work or is there like bigger things that 1156 01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:42.319 you've moved on to, like other rituals that would be 1157 01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:42.720 better for that. 1158 01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:47.720 I I like the hexagram, but I won't I don't 1159 01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:51.600 think it's you gotta first of all, you got to 1160 01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:55.960 use the hexagram, do a full at the very least, 1161 01:11:56.119 --> 01:12:00.399 do a like work with every planet, like three or 1162 01:12:00.439 --> 01:12:02.399 four times with the hexagram. 1163 01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:03.199 Uh. 1164 01:12:04.760 --> 01:12:08.479 And then you got to see its effects because it's 1165 01:12:08.560 --> 01:12:12.119 it's got a it's got a very it has a 1166 01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:14.920 very like a general kind of thing. If you're just 1167 01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:17.560 if unless you have a really really specific thing that 1168 01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:19.800 you're doing, it will it's kind of like this three 1169 01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:22.920 For me anyway, it's this three sixty effect where like 1170 01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:26.439 I didn't necessarily intend for this to happen, but it's 1171 01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:28.840 it's related and et cetera, so on and so forth. 1172 01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:33.399 I would say it's situationally appropriate. I like, I I'm 1173 01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:37.199 not for something like that. I'm I'm pulling from the PGM, 1174 01:12:37.319 --> 01:12:40.560 even though I have I have kind of blended both 1175 01:12:40.600 --> 01:12:43.399 of them before. I just don't find that it's necessary 1176 01:12:43.560 --> 01:12:46.800 to use the hexagram for for stuff like that. I 1177 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:50.920 think it can also interfere. I I like it when 1178 01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:57.399 I'm making traditional talismans out of a specific material with 1179 01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:01.000 the squares and the you know, the sigils and stuff 1180 01:13:01.159 --> 01:13:03.479 straight out of Agrippa and all that kind of stuff. 1181 01:13:03.520 --> 01:13:06.800 That's when I'll I'll use the hexagram. I find that 1182 01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:09.680 that combination is really well. That's how I learned how 1183 01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:12.880 to consecrate talents exactly, the hexagram. 1184 01:13:13.520 --> 01:13:14.880 Yeah, same thing. 1185 01:13:16.039 --> 01:13:16.199 Yeah. 1186 01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:19.000 No, I thought like, it's kind of like I can 1187 01:13:19.039 --> 01:13:20.199 think getting into depth as. 1188 01:13:20.159 --> 01:13:20.640 You guys are. 1189 01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:22.680 I don't even know if i'd suggest the hexagram, I 1190 01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:25.680 just feel like that would I don't know this would 1191 01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:26.800 be the best. I don't know. 1192 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:31.399 It's like, what are you trying to what are you 1193 01:13:31.439 --> 01:13:32.359 trying to make me do? Quit? 1194 01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:36.800 It's so like involved, yeah. 1195 01:13:38.439 --> 01:13:38.840 Exactly. 1196 01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:42.600 Uh yeah, I'm sorry now I interrupted somebody for that, 1197 01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:43.439 so go ahead. 1198 01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:44.000 Was that branch? 1199 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:47.399 No, I just wanted to say that astroerbalism. At least 1200 01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:50.319 you guys are speaking, I can understand that language. 1201 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:50.760 At least. 1202 01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:53.800 I think that's really interesting. I feel like there's a 1203 01:13:53.840 --> 01:13:57.760 lot of first principle experimentation that people can do with 1204 01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:01.439 herbs to understand planetary natures, because obviously there's a direct 1205 01:14:02.079 --> 01:14:04.000 one to one relationship as long as you know the 1206 01:14:04.159 --> 01:14:09.479 planetary metal content of whatever herb you want to reduce 1207 01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:11.960 or make into incense. Incense is a good one for 1208 01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:15.560 normies rather than go full on sporagic. I think I 1209 01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:17.800 don't know if you guys have any idea thoughts on 1210 01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:19.640 that or commentary. 1211 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:24.119 What are you using Culpepper or like cunningham sterble. 1212 01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:26.760 I'm very familiar with both. 1213 01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.640 I'm also familiar with a lot of the Chinese sort 1214 01:14:30.680 --> 01:14:34.640 of like tax on, like the planetary natures as it 1215 01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:38.600 relates to TCM Herbs. I also speak Mandarin, so that 1216 01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:42.119 obviously helps me a little bit in that endeavor. And 1217 01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:45.920 then I'm familiar with like the Garuda Piranha, which listen 1218 01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:49.079 in ara Vedic context with the Grajas and also the 1219 01:14:49.279 --> 01:14:53.560 Tarviadas in themselves lay out a kind of like astromedicalism. 1220 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:54.720 It's very rudimentary. 1221 01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:57.359 I'm sure Jamie you'd probably find it like very Oh 1222 01:14:57.439 --> 01:14:59.279 you'd be like, oh, this is just derived from like 1223 01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.479 the you know, Mughal ice Arabic text, but you know 1224 01:15:02.600 --> 01:15:03.640 it's a it's something. 1225 01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:10.760 Yeah. I mean I wrote a book uh Etheric magic 1226 01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:15.039 on Llewellen and uh, I think there are a lot 1227 01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:17.880 of those principles, like in terms of the energy work 1228 01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:22.960 and stuff like that. Is is any of that pertinent 1229 01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:25.600 to what we're talking about here? 1230 01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:30.479 I mean, I mean, yeah, there's there's there are there's 1231 01:15:30.560 --> 01:15:34.560 like A I gotta well go ahead. 1232 01:15:34.600 --> 01:15:38.520 Sorry, I was gonna say, only because you know, I'm 1233 01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:41.640 I don't know anything about any of that. 1234 01:15:42.479 --> 01:15:44.840 I would say that, like, so, there's there's tons of 1235 01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:48.720 work on what they call like plant energetics and planetary orbology. 1236 01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:52.840 I you know, I do have a little bit of 1237 01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:56.000 an issue with right. I had to I had to 1238 01:15:56.119 --> 01:15:58.920 call it etheric energy or you know, I had to 1239 01:15:59.000 --> 01:16:01.680 talk about energy work. This is the only thing I 1240 01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:05.159 have recourse to in order to be able to explain 1241 01:16:05.840 --> 01:16:07.880 this stuff and to be able to make it a 1242 01:16:07.920 --> 01:16:11.199 little bit more tangible. I'm not certain that it is. 1243 01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:14.279 I like I and I say this in the book. 1244 01:16:14.359 --> 01:16:17.600 I say it when I give presentations. I'm using energy 1245 01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:20.720 almost as like a it's just a place place marker. 1246 01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:25.199 I would say, we don't really know entirely what it is, 1247 01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:28.560 but we do know. I really liked the term that 1248 01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:29.840 you used, effluence. 1249 01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:32.239 I really like that. 1250 01:16:33.039 --> 01:16:37.560 But I would say that the the way that I 1251 01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:41.000 think a Western kind of ceremonialist, let's say, somebody that 1252 01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:45.039 came through the Golden Dawn or derivative traditions, the way 1253 01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:47.880 that they're really gonna be able to understand a lot 1254 01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:51.920 of that stuff is in is in the cataalistic tree 1255 01:16:51.960 --> 01:16:54.840 of life. Like I had to rely on that as 1256 01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:58.800 well because it maps onto the body as a microcosm, 1257 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:04.359 and so you can I also find like I started 1258 01:17:04.439 --> 01:17:09.319 off in jaiz En meditation and certain Vedic practices that 1259 01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:13.279 are kind of similar to Kundalini, and just working with 1260 01:17:14.119 --> 01:17:20.000 with the midline. It's it's good, I think in terms 1261 01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:25.399 of purifying and sort of condensing this energy and et cetera, 1262 01:17:25.439 --> 01:17:28.000 and so on and so forth. But once you break 1263 01:17:28.079 --> 01:17:30.600 it out into those three pillars of the tree of life, 1264 01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:33.800 or really once you get to like further levels, you're 1265 01:17:33.880 --> 01:17:38.880 you're working with five pillars right in the microcosm one, two, three, 1266 01:17:39.079 --> 01:17:42.880 four five. That's at a certain point in Golden Dawn work, 1267 01:17:42.920 --> 01:17:45.359 you're working with five pillars in the sphere of sensation. 1268 01:17:46.039 --> 01:17:49.159 It broadens it up for magic because every one of 1269 01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:53.399 those things is corresponded to a planet, you know, a 1270 01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:58.920 zodiacal constellation and element every part of that tree. So 1271 01:17:59.039 --> 01:18:02.079 it really broad it up for me in terms of 1272 01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:06.960 a magical scheme. Man, you could you could totally work 1273 01:18:07.119 --> 01:18:13.640 that kind of planetary uh you know, I guess energetic system, 1274 01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:16.560 but you you know, you're gonna need to like memorize 1275 01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:18.920 a bunch of correspondences. I don't know how many people 1276 01:18:19.119 --> 01:18:21.079 want to do that, but I know if you, if 1277 01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:24.960 you come through that sort of trajectory and that training 1278 01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:26.880 like you, you probably already have it. 1279 01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:30.960 Yeah, one thing I may say, and then I'll have 1280 01:18:31.079 --> 01:18:35.359 to jump out. It's pretty amazing to see when, for example, 1281 01:18:35.399 --> 01:18:38.159 I did work with other people on some energetic like 1282 01:18:38.279 --> 01:18:41.039 pathworking or like going out their tree and whatever, like 1283 01:18:41.159 --> 01:18:43.960 if I was studying and helping them go and feel 1284 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:47.920 for themselves, and when they describe what they're seeing or 1285 01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:52.479 feeling and so on, and it matches completely like the correspondences. 1286 01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:55.960 So even if they don't know that, it matches just 1287 01:18:56.039 --> 01:18:58.079 because you know they're feeling and they're trying to explain 1288 01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:00.960 with their own words. Somebody that does understand can do 1289 01:19:01.079 --> 01:19:04.720 the the match in. It's so so nice and reaffirms 1290 01:19:04.800 --> 01:19:09.640 the how that works. Right, So it's pretty fain cool, Yice, 1291 01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:13.000 Thanks about for the chat, Thanks about everyone that watches 1292 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:15.239 them from here and uh you in the next one. 1293 01:19:15.720 --> 01:19:22.079 Thank you, Thanks General branch Hell did you want to it's. 1294 01:19:22.039 --> 01:19:28.319 Gonna I do have a question that Jin's welcome to 1295 01:19:28.359 --> 01:19:29.600 go ahead of me if he likes. 1296 01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:34.279 Thank you, Josh, you're being so nice to me and deferential. 1297 01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:36.960 We're all equals in the Great Lodge. Just for the record, 1298 01:19:37.000 --> 01:19:39.479 I'm not the boss, but you know he's he's maybe 1299 01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:42.960 he's doing a bed. I don't know, Jamie, I have 1300 01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:45.920 I have a quick question for you. You sort of 1301 01:19:46.039 --> 01:19:48.399 discussed this last time, and it's directly related to your 1302 01:19:48.439 --> 01:19:53.920 astrocoetic book. So when you uh started doing like because 1303 01:19:53.960 --> 01:19:56.439 you mentioned that you use the tarot for like part 1304 01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:58.800 of that working, So you explained like how you would 1305 01:19:58.880 --> 01:20:02.720 use certain tarot cards to represent Obviously, certain astrological conditions 1306 01:20:02.720 --> 01:20:08.520 are couplistic sort of associations for getting into taro, Like 1307 01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:11.680 I understand the tree in my own way, in my 1308 01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:15.039 own ton tric way, and I am a big diagnosed this. 1309 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:17.720 I'm a big fan of dcs David hym Smith Heimsmith 1310 01:20:17.800 --> 01:20:20.960 excuse me, sorry, and so I've read all his books, 1311 01:20:21.439 --> 01:20:23.600 and I've also read like Romic and stuff, But I 1312 01:20:23.720 --> 01:20:26.920 don't come at it from like a necessarily hermetic perspective. 1313 01:20:27.439 --> 01:20:32.479 So when I'm now trying to learn a little taro, 1314 01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:36.000 at least in its application to the tree, So what 1315 01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:39.840 would you recommend for me or maybe someone who's less 1316 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:43.600 familiar with the tree to get into Taro met like, 1317 01:20:43.720 --> 01:20:47.000 do you like tom Berg or is there something like it? 1318 01:20:47.520 --> 01:20:48.079 Whatever you like? 1319 01:20:48.159 --> 01:20:50.640 I just want to I'm curious. I would like to 1320 01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:54.920 learn whatever you do, because obviously I respect it highly. 1321 01:20:56.239 --> 01:20:59.720 If we're I mean, for for me, I can't think 1322 01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:02.000 of a book like a Terot book that it was 1323 01:21:02.119 --> 01:21:05.119 like a one great book. And I've told people this 1324 01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:09.199 over the years, and I stand by this. It's like 1325 01:21:09.319 --> 01:21:12.000 there is no just nobody could just sit there and 1326 01:21:12.279 --> 01:21:14.479 write it out in a book and get I mean, 1327 01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:19.159 I think it's how you approach that symbol set. It's 1328 01:21:19.279 --> 01:21:22.000 what you It's the other things in your life, you know. 1329 01:21:22.119 --> 01:21:25.359 It's are you familiar with how the divine liturgy works? 1330 01:21:25.399 --> 01:21:27.760 Are you familiar with a Catholic Mass? Are you familiar 1331 01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:32.640 with rudimentary Kabbalah? Do you know are you good with mythology? 1332 01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:39.319 Do you know Renaissance history? Do you know courtly heraldic symbolism? 1333 01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:42.800 Do you know you know a little bit of alchemy? 1334 01:21:43.199 --> 01:21:47.439 You know, it's when you start to know these when 1335 01:21:47.479 --> 01:21:50.279 you start to develop those modes of interpretation, when you 1336 01:21:50.399 --> 01:21:54.319 start to develop a hermeneutic toolkit is when is when 1337 01:21:54.439 --> 01:21:56.640 I think when you could really act it. Do you 1338 01:21:56.720 --> 01:22:00.399 know Pythagorean numerology for example, you know when you think 1339 01:22:00.439 --> 01:22:01.720 of one, is it the monad? 1340 01:22:01.920 --> 01:22:02.600 Is it you know? 1341 01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:06.840 Is it the tohn or you know? And is the 1342 01:22:06.960 --> 01:22:11.800 diad evil to you? Is it this you know, indefinite diad? 1343 01:22:11.920 --> 01:22:12.079 You know. 1344 01:22:12.479 --> 01:22:17.359 So there's there's all these all these I think tangential 1345 01:22:17.520 --> 01:22:22.319 things that inform I guess the more you know, the 1346 01:22:22.439 --> 01:22:28.359 more you can sort of get out of the taro. 1347 01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:30.560 I don't know if that makes a whole lot of sense, 1348 01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:33.399 but reading a book on Tara like Tomberg. I've read 1349 01:22:33.479 --> 01:22:38.039 tom Berg, and you know, I'm uncomfortable with continental correspondences 1350 01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:42.199 like he uses like Levy. I'm I'm just better with 1351 01:22:42.600 --> 01:22:46.000 Golden Dawn correspondences. I think they're neater. I think they're tighter. 1352 01:22:46.520 --> 01:22:49.680 And yes, there's a couple of transpositions there, but uh, 1353 01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:53.359 it's nothing I'm you know, worried about. And it's and 1354 01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:56.039 it's the language that we speak. So there's the other 1355 01:22:56.119 --> 01:22:58.840 thing when we talk about and I know you're a cobbylist, 1356 01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:01.800 when we talk about the gras tree or this tree 1357 01:23:01.920 --> 01:23:05.039 or that tree, I think we all agree pretty much 1358 01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:07.680 on the kurture tree, and I think we all pretty 1359 01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:10.800 much agree on the Queen color scale, just if we're 1360 01:23:10.840 --> 01:23:14.359 talking generally about this stuff. So, and we all pretty 1361 01:23:14.439 --> 01:23:16.720 much agree on the attribution of the tarot to the 1362 01:23:16.840 --> 01:23:20.920 netivot or the paths. So I think it's just courtesy 1363 01:23:21.359 --> 01:23:25.359 amongst occultists to talk in the language that everybody knows, 1364 01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:28.800 you know, and to use gammetric values that everybody kind 1365 01:23:28.840 --> 01:23:32.359 of agrees with as opposed to some ordinal things, some 1366 01:23:32.560 --> 01:23:39.399 other creative interpretation. But yeah, it's just something. Yeah, you 1367 01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:41.560 could specialize on your own, but when you and I 1368 01:23:41.720 --> 01:23:44.119 are talking, I'm going to use the language that we 1369 01:23:44.640 --> 01:23:47.920 know absolutely have in common. I don't know if that 1370 01:23:48.279 --> 01:23:52.560 kind of veered too much from your question, but yes, 1371 01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:57.199 about about Taro, I think I think it's more the 1372 01:23:57.319 --> 01:24:01.239 things that are around, the things that you learn around 1373 01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:04.000 Taro that informant ike. 1374 01:24:04.199 --> 01:24:07.039 So sorry about that, Jimmy apologize. 1375 01:24:07.439 --> 01:24:11.560 Yeah, No, I it's kind of like music. You're developing this, 1376 01:24:11.880 --> 01:24:16.319 uh you know, uh jenisagui this this kind of taste 1377 01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:22.199 almost but uh, it's it's sort of this foundational backdrop 1378 01:24:22.319 --> 01:24:25.439 to being able to interpret this stuff because the taro. 1379 01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:30.239 I have seen the taro work just as well for 1380 01:24:30.439 --> 01:24:35.840 hardcore like militant Golden Dawn correspondent correspondence people as I 1381 01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:37.880 do for people who treat the taro like it's an 1382 01:24:37.920 --> 01:24:40.319 oracle deck or something like that. You know, I've seen 1383 01:24:40.399 --> 01:24:46.479 it work fine in both situations. I think consistency in 1384 01:24:46.560 --> 01:24:52.279 your own method is important. But I also think, uh, 1385 01:24:52.560 --> 01:24:56.520 you know, this is gonna sound cheesy and new agey, 1386 01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:59.239 but I mean Taro was the first, it's still is 1387 01:24:59.319 --> 01:25:03.079 my preferred to a nation method. But you got to 1388 01:25:03.119 --> 01:25:06.319 develop a relationship with the cards. They speak to you 1389 01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:09.439 like a person. You know, a lot of times they 1390 01:25:09.479 --> 01:25:12.520 speak to you like a counselor it's not it's not 1391 01:25:12.720 --> 01:25:15.680 that you I feel like one of the things about 1392 01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:18.279 the Golden Dawn system is that I think it's better 1393 01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:22.960 for Tarot card pathworkings or things like you're using where 1394 01:25:22.960 --> 01:25:24.920 you're doing this sort of you know, using the tarot 1395 01:25:24.920 --> 01:25:30.479 as like associations for particular planetary whatever it is. But 1396 01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:34.479 I think ultimately to develop a really serious Tarot practice, 1397 01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:37.880 you got to just develop a relationship and be consistent 1398 01:25:37.960 --> 01:25:42.319 with your methodology. And I agree with you, I Taro 1399 01:25:42.560 --> 01:25:45.479 is it's always been like my number one thing was 1400 01:25:45.520 --> 01:25:48.960 the first like occult tool that I ever purchased and 1401 01:25:49.119 --> 01:25:52.199 worked with. But I've I can count on one hand 1402 01:25:52.239 --> 01:25:54.880 how many tarot books I've read. It kind of it 1403 01:25:55.800 --> 01:25:58.479 because like the first third through everything I've tried to read, 1404 01:25:58.520 --> 01:26:00.239 I've been like, this is this gets more more in 1405 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:01.680 the way than helping me. 1406 01:26:03.000 --> 01:26:05.800 Yeah, exactly, I feel the same way. And you know, 1407 01:26:05.880 --> 01:26:10.359 there's another interesting thing about developing that theoretical sort of 1408 01:26:10.640 --> 01:26:14.119 lens on the tarot is like as opposed to And 1409 01:26:14.199 --> 01:26:17.159 it's my first divination technique as well. And I came 1410 01:26:17.199 --> 01:26:20.720 at it completely intuitively, you know, in fact, almost in 1411 01:26:20.840 --> 01:26:25.720 the psychological sort of sense, you know, because I, like 1412 01:26:25.840 --> 01:26:28.399 all of us, you know, growing up in the modern West, 1413 01:26:28.600 --> 01:26:36.159 we're disenchanted beings. We're just hardwired for atheistic materialism and nihilism. 1414 01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:40.079 I mean, it's just we It's in our commercials, it's 1415 01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:42.520 in our cars, it's in our food. It's just what 1416 01:26:42.760 --> 01:26:46.159 we take. You know, everything's weights and measures. The planets 1417 01:26:46.199 --> 01:26:49.960 are meaningless, just dead matter held together by some natural 1418 01:26:50.119 --> 01:26:53.079 force or other, you know. But I don't want to 1419 01:26:53.119 --> 01:26:58.119 go down that path right now. But I will say 1420 01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:03.119 that regarding the Tarot, starting from that intuitive place and 1421 01:27:03.199 --> 01:27:05.520 then learning all this theory and all you know, all 1422 01:27:05.560 --> 01:27:09.520 the GD correspondences and all the mythology and all these 1423 01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:13.600 different ways of looking at it, then coming back hopefully 1424 01:27:14.119 --> 01:27:18.079 to where the intuitive and the intellectual kind of meat, 1425 01:27:18.479 --> 01:27:22.199 and you don't have to think about those correspondences anymore. 1426 01:27:23.399 --> 01:27:27.760 It's it's become something where these symbols, you know, especially 1427 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:32.439 I use Tero de Marseille and Merseille. These are these 1428 01:27:32.479 --> 01:27:36.640 are nice, like wood cutty looking, strong, austere images. 1429 01:27:37.159 --> 01:27:37.720 You know, I don't. 1430 01:27:38.159 --> 01:27:41.359 I started on rider way like most people, but I 1431 01:27:41.479 --> 01:27:44.399 switched to these pretty early on, and I just find 1432 01:27:44.479 --> 01:27:47.399 them to be more penetrative, you know, Like when I 1433 01:27:47.560 --> 01:27:51.520 look at a Tero de marsell card, it's just like 1434 01:27:51.720 --> 01:27:54.920 it can bypass my intellect, you know, or it could 1435 01:27:55.640 --> 01:27:58.119 before I get in there and start interpreting it. Just 1436 01:27:58.239 --> 01:28:01.199 like dream interpretation. And Danny told me this. He got 1437 01:28:01.239 --> 01:28:03.760 it from Freud or Young or somebody, but he said, 1438 01:28:04.439 --> 01:28:07.359 the first thing in dream interpretation that you should think 1439 01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:09.600 is how does it feel? Not what does it mean? 1440 01:28:09.920 --> 01:28:11.640 You know, when you have this crazy dream you wake 1441 01:28:11.720 --> 01:28:12.880 up in the morning, what does it mean? 1442 01:28:13.199 --> 01:28:13.359 You know? 1443 01:28:13.560 --> 01:28:16.600 My dog has esp with me and we were eating 1444 01:28:16.640 --> 01:28:21.119 cereal or whatever. But don't look at like what it means, 1445 01:28:21.560 --> 01:28:25.920 look at try and feel those feelings you know around that. 1446 01:28:26.199 --> 01:28:30.520 So I think I think the really integrative part of 1447 01:28:30.680 --> 01:28:34.039 tarot is when the theory and the practice and the 1448 01:28:34.239 --> 01:28:39.760 intuition and the intellect I guess kind of become one 1449 01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:43.720 one thing and you really just absorb the symbols for 1450 01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:46.680 what they are and maybe you're able to articulate those 1451 01:28:46.720 --> 01:28:47.439 to somebody else. 1452 01:28:50.039 --> 01:28:51.840 Thank you both appreciate that greatly. 1453 01:28:53.239 --> 01:28:53.439 Sure. 1454 01:28:56.520 --> 01:28:59.720 Do you think at some point it's this type of 1455 01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:04.680 magic it was more open in the public or or 1456 01:29:04.760 --> 01:29:07.600 more well accepted, like I think like during the Renaissance, 1457 01:29:07.640 --> 01:29:10.560 do you think maybe it was usual considered more. 1458 01:29:11.640 --> 01:29:12.560 The Roman Empire. 1459 01:29:13.279 --> 01:29:16.920 Yeah, every everyone was was an astrologer back then. 1460 01:29:17.840 --> 01:29:21.439 Yeah, thrastle us, Uh, I mean it was, it was 1461 01:29:21.520 --> 01:29:24.359 part of it was part of the legislature. 1462 01:29:24.880 --> 01:29:25.000 Mm. 1463 01:29:25.399 --> 01:29:28.239 Yeah, it's like a it's like a civic art. 1464 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:35.960 Yeah, absolutely, I uh. It just it all has to 1465 01:29:36.079 --> 01:29:38.479 do I think exactly with what you were saying, Jamie. 1466 01:29:38.560 --> 01:29:42.920 Is that that that you know atheistic materialism and it's 1467 01:29:43.319 --> 01:29:47.920 it's it's unconscious because it is it just surrounds us completely. 1468 01:29:48.680 --> 01:29:53.239 Uh that, you know, just it relegates it to this, 1469 01:29:53.640 --> 01:29:56.720 you know, the bin of Wu. You know, it's like, 1470 01:29:57.479 --> 01:30:02.640 uh so it's yeah, it's been that way probably since. 1471 01:30:04.319 --> 01:30:08.880 You know, the Ptolemaic model literally Ptolemy's sort of model 1472 01:30:08.960 --> 01:30:15.159 of the spheres was kind of like disproven. But I 1473 01:30:15.239 --> 01:30:17.880 think the broader project of what we call right the 1474 01:30:18.039 --> 01:30:23.680 Enlightenment really was was this prolonged effort to sort of 1475 01:30:23.920 --> 01:30:28.199 sort of de enchante you know, disenchant everything uh by. 1476 01:30:28.479 --> 01:30:31.399 But it didn't it didn't successfully do that. I think. 1477 01:30:33.119 --> 01:30:34.680 You know, I. 1478 01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:39.039 Somebody asked me a question recently or they posted up 1479 01:30:39.079 --> 01:30:40.640 on my wall and I haven't gotten to it yet 1480 01:30:40.680 --> 01:30:42.520 to answer it. They said, Okay, if this stuff was 1481 01:30:42.560 --> 01:30:46.239 so powerful, why was why did modern science? Why did 1482 01:30:46.239 --> 01:30:49.319 the why was the Enlightenment able to overcome it and 1483 01:30:49.479 --> 01:30:53.640 destroy it? The first thing is it didn't destroy it. Okay, 1484 01:30:53.760 --> 01:30:56.119 we like, we're all sitting here, we all do this shit. 1485 01:30:57.039 --> 01:30:59.920 It did not destroy it, first of all. Second of 1486 01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:07.800 it was it really was a shift in in predominantly 1487 01:31:07.920 --> 01:31:11.920 the Protestant and Walter Honograph has done great research on this. 1488 01:31:12.319 --> 01:31:16.800 The Protestant universities wanted to strip out this sort of 1489 01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:21.720 platonizing version of Christianity, And little did they know that 1490 01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:25.000 that project, once begun, would eventually just come back it 1491 01:31:25.119 --> 01:31:27.359 to bite them in the ass and eat them alive 1492 01:31:27.800 --> 01:31:31.880 in terms of you know, the academic institutions. But it's 1493 01:31:31.960 --> 01:31:36.560 a I think that's what rendered it controversial. But even 1494 01:31:37.880 --> 01:31:41.439 even still there were people in the fifteenth and sixteenth 1495 01:31:41.520 --> 01:31:44.560 century still using this stuff. You know, there were still 1496 01:31:44.680 --> 01:31:48.760 some doctors that that you know, it's even still well known, 1497 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:54.119 like you don't you don't draw blood, you don't do 1498 01:31:54.319 --> 01:31:56.560 surgery in the full of the moon. That's still like 1499 01:31:56.680 --> 01:31:58.920 a modern thing, you know, because why because it's like 1500 01:31:58.960 --> 01:32:02.039 you're gonna you're gonna have a heart time controlling blood loss. 1501 01:32:03.119 --> 01:32:07.119 So even even back then it's it was I think 1502 01:32:07.279 --> 01:32:09.840 something that was quietly done. 1503 01:32:12.079 --> 01:32:15.680 Yeah, I know, like just even recently maybe just coincidental 1504 01:32:16.039 --> 01:32:19.800 people have covered on the show, like I think Tycho 1505 01:32:19.880 --> 01:32:23.199 Brahe and Kepler and I be honest, like they old 1506 01:32:23.199 --> 01:32:25.760 I think at some point got paid by like you know, 1507 01:32:25.960 --> 01:32:28.199 kings are powerful people just to do hard like to 1508 01:32:28.319 --> 01:32:28.880 do charts. 1509 01:32:29.600 --> 01:32:29.760 You know. 1510 01:32:29.840 --> 01:32:32.199 It's like almost the way that they they pedal that 1511 01:32:32.279 --> 01:32:34.640 ship like as a way of like making money in between, 1512 01:32:34.680 --> 01:32:35.520 I guess doing things. 1513 01:32:36.199 --> 01:32:36.319 You know. 1514 01:32:36.359 --> 01:32:38.079 It's like kind of side almost. 1515 01:32:40.680 --> 01:32:44.399 Yeah, and the Habsburgs, I think they both worked for them. 1516 01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:48.880 Tycho Brahi had two castles that he built specifically for 1517 01:32:49.239 --> 01:32:52.920 the observations, and the entire things were engineered for that purpose. 1518 01:32:53.720 --> 01:32:57.520 So this was major operations going on back then with 1519 01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:00.640 just normal I mean, I don't think he even had 1520 01:33:00.680 --> 01:33:04.720 the telescope e there, so this was just standard observation 1521 01:33:04.800 --> 01:33:05.279 with the start. 1522 01:33:06.119 --> 01:33:08.039 Yeah, him and his drunk drunken milk. 1523 01:33:10.199 --> 01:33:13.840 Yeah yeah, yeah, you know. 1524 01:33:13.880 --> 01:33:15.760 It was another interesting thing about him too. 1525 01:33:16.520 --> 01:33:18.920 They do speculate that they think his flower gardens are 1526 01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:23.359 even planted planet and like planetary uh like everything that 1527 01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:24.880 would go along I guess with Mars would be in 1528 01:33:24.920 --> 01:33:27.239 the same area, or Jupiter would be in the same area, 1529 01:33:27.279 --> 01:33:29.439 like he planted all those things like separately to go 1530 01:33:29.560 --> 01:33:32.600 along with each other. I was like, that's what I 1531 01:33:32.800 --> 01:33:35.479 That's what I came across when I was covering him. Yeah, yeah, 1532 01:33:35.560 --> 01:33:37.640 he was, and he was really big into the Chinction ship. 1533 01:33:38.039 --> 01:33:40.159 He provided health for everybody on that fucking island. 1534 01:33:41.359 --> 01:33:41.560 Yeah. 1535 01:33:42.960 --> 01:33:45.640 Yeah. I like his cosmology. I mean I think he 1536 01:33:45.800 --> 01:33:48.840 really did an improvement on the ptolemaic thing by making 1537 01:33:49.560 --> 01:33:52.399 Venus and mercury go around the Sun, you know, because 1538 01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:57.960 they have you know that that's a better explanation of 1539 01:33:58.199 --> 01:34:02.600 than than uh, you know, the epicircles and deference and 1540 01:34:02.720 --> 01:34:05.279 things like that. That told me we had to explain 1541 01:34:05.399 --> 01:34:09.359 those those inferior planets and their retrogradations and stuff like that. 1542 01:34:10.039 --> 01:34:15.600 But yeah, I love the ticonic cosmology. And Ike and 1543 01:34:15.680 --> 01:34:18.920 I have talked about this a ton, and it's you know, 1544 01:34:19.079 --> 01:34:26.119 it's a charge that many anti astrologers level at astrology 1545 01:34:26.239 --> 01:34:30.079 is that it's geocentric. They say it's geocentric, so it's 1546 01:34:30.119 --> 01:34:36.920 an outmoded cosmology, it's you know, but that's astrology. We 1547 01:34:37.079 --> 01:34:40.960 use the word georeferential. It's georeferential because the Earth is 1548 01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:45.119 the reference point from which human beings survey the cosmos. 1549 01:34:45.520 --> 01:34:49.640 The Earth is the locus of human consciousness. It's astrology 1550 01:34:49.760 --> 01:34:52.840 is an earthly art that we apply to the cosmos. 1551 01:34:52.920 --> 01:34:56.399 So we live on the Earth. It's our perspective, and 1552 01:34:57.720 --> 01:35:03.000 you know, it makes sense to think of the Earth 1553 01:35:03.039 --> 01:35:06.720 as being this stationary central object. So one little thought, 1554 01:35:08.479 --> 01:35:12.560 kind of thought exercise for this would be, imagine you're 1555 01:35:12.600 --> 01:35:16.039 looking at our Solar system from celestial north. You're out 1556 01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:18.399 in space and you're looking down at our Sun and 1557 01:35:18.520 --> 01:35:22.119 all the planets are orbiting it. Right, take the pin 1558 01:35:22.439 --> 01:35:25.199 out of the Sun, stick it in the Earth, and 1559 01:35:25.319 --> 01:35:29.000 leave all the movements exactly the same, and you're totally fine, 1560 01:35:29.319 --> 01:35:30.920 you know what I mean. That's all you need. You 1561 01:35:31.000 --> 01:35:34.119 don't need to believe something ridiculous to be an astrologer. 1562 01:35:34.399 --> 01:35:38.600 You don't need to believe in geocentrism. You need to 1563 01:35:38.680 --> 01:35:42.319 believe that the Earth is your locus of observation, and 1564 01:35:42.479 --> 01:35:46.119 you need to consider that both the Earth and the 1565 01:35:46.199 --> 01:35:49.840 Sun are careening through space at some ungodly miles per hour, right, 1566 01:35:50.279 --> 01:35:53.800 doesn't matter which one's rotating around which, you know, Just 1567 01:35:53.840 --> 01:35:58.199 stick the pin in the Earth, leave everything exactly the same, 1568 01:35:58.880 --> 01:36:02.039 and you're fine. You have tychos you have typos cosmology 1569 01:36:02.119 --> 01:36:02.479 right there. 1570 01:36:02.960 --> 01:36:08.640 Yeah, And it's it's virtually useless, in my opinion, it's 1571 01:36:08.760 --> 01:36:13.800 virtually useless to adopt any other perspective when you are 1572 01:36:13.920 --> 01:36:17.560 doing any kind of magic, right, because magic is all 1573 01:36:17.600 --> 01:36:22.319 about the phenomenology, and so it's like, as as a magician, 1574 01:36:23.159 --> 01:36:25.920 you need to be in the driver's seat when you're 1575 01:36:26.079 --> 01:36:30.119 outsourcing sort of the you know, whatever it is, the 1576 01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:33.319 locus of gravity or whatever, whatever you think it is. 1577 01:36:34.439 --> 01:36:36.640 You know, I think the main thing was is this 1578 01:36:36.840 --> 01:36:41.840 idea that when we reallocate the quote unquote center to 1579 01:36:42.000 --> 01:36:45.960 the sun, it kind of you know, it detracts from 1580 01:36:46.000 --> 01:36:50.640 the specialness of human beings. It's like, I think, again, 1581 01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:55.800 that's another modern or postmodern misconception. I think it's a 1582 01:36:55.920 --> 01:37:00.079 corruption of our thinking that is a product of this 1583 01:37:00.279 --> 01:37:06.880 everywhere we look, atheistic, reductionist materialism. It doesn't matter if 1584 01:37:06.960 --> 01:37:10.560 the center of the center of gravity is the sun. 1585 01:37:11.359 --> 01:37:15.520 Your experience is in your fucking body, in the room 1586 01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:17.680 you're in, in the town you're in, in the state 1587 01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:20.840 you're in, the fucking planet you're on. So that does 1588 01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:24.680 not negate any of that stuff. And again, you know, 1589 01:37:24.760 --> 01:37:27.800 like like Jamie saying, you don't need to say either or. 1590 01:37:28.600 --> 01:37:31.680 You got to have two things that have their own 1591 01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:35.960 domain of authority, right the let's say this, the the 1592 01:37:36.119 --> 01:37:41.560 phenomenological and the the the the scientific or empirical or 1593 01:37:41.640 --> 01:37:45.000 the subjective and the objective, respectively. They got to have 1594 01:37:45.079 --> 01:37:47.039 their own domains of authority if you're going to do 1595 01:37:47.119 --> 01:37:50.159 this shit, and they have to be in communication with 1596 01:37:50.279 --> 01:37:53.159 each other. But one shouldn't be trying to stamp the 1597 01:37:53.239 --> 01:37:58.560 other one out. But particularly when you're when you're working magic, 1598 01:37:58.760 --> 01:38:03.119 it is useless. Yes, uh, to not adopt a you 1599 01:38:03.199 --> 01:38:09.960 know that that geocentric drivers or georeferential driver's seat view 1600 01:38:10.039 --> 01:38:12.920 of the cosmos, because both are true, they're just different 1601 01:38:13.039 --> 01:38:13.960 kinds of truths. 1602 01:38:16.880 --> 01:38:19.680 Yeah, I agree with one percent. I also agree that 1603 01:38:21.920 --> 01:38:28.159 if you're if you're doing Hellenistic, Medieval Renaissance, Elizabethan, whatever, 1604 01:38:28.199 --> 01:38:31.319 if you're doing any traditional astrology or magic, you at 1605 01:38:31.399 --> 01:38:34.680 least have to know that cosmological model. You have to 1606 01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:40.159 know the Aristotelian uh ptolemaic kind of situation of the cosmos. 1607 01:38:40.520 --> 01:38:42.239 You have to know that the elements are in their 1608 01:38:42.359 --> 01:38:46.520 natural place in the sublunary sphere, meaning it's pre gravitational, right. 1609 01:38:46.560 --> 01:38:49.039 They didn't know about gravity. So they had the Earth 1610 01:38:49.119 --> 01:38:51.359 in the center. They had water on top of the earth. 1611 01:38:51.600 --> 01:38:53.800 They had air on top of water. They had fire 1612 01:38:54.199 --> 01:38:56.359 lighter than air. You could see when you drop a 1613 01:38:56.399 --> 01:38:59.119 pebble into water that the earth sinks. You could see 1614 01:38:59.159 --> 01:39:02.199 that when you put air in the water, the bubbles rise. 1615 01:39:02.640 --> 01:39:05.760 You could see that that air is that fire is 1616 01:39:05.840 --> 01:39:08.800 lighter than air. I mean, that's just the way the 1617 01:39:08.920 --> 01:39:14.600 elements stratify, or the really the the states of matter, 1618 01:39:14.920 --> 01:39:19.760 because earth is just solid, water is liquid or you know, uh, 1619 01:39:20.560 --> 01:39:24.439 air is gaseous, fire is plasmic. That's all so, and 1620 01:39:24.520 --> 01:39:29.199 then you get the etheric spheres, like I was talking about, incorruptible, 1621 01:39:29.359 --> 01:39:34.640 unchangeable above the sphere, the sublunary sphere of generation and corruption, 1622 01:39:35.439 --> 01:39:38.079 and then beyond that you know the odo ad, the 1623 01:39:38.159 --> 01:39:43.239 any et cetera, these angelic spheres, these noetic sphere, whatever 1624 01:39:43.439 --> 01:39:48.279 model you're working with metaphysically, because you're beyond the physics 1625 01:39:48.319 --> 01:39:48.840 at that point. 1626 01:39:50.119 --> 01:39:53.760 Yeah, And I one thing that I made a note 1627 01:39:53.840 --> 01:39:55.960 that I wanted to like right before we started talking, 1628 01:39:56.039 --> 01:39:58.159 that I wanted to kind of offer to anybody that's 1629 01:39:58.880 --> 01:40:03.960 trying to understand astrological stuff, because I really feel for 1630 01:40:04.079 --> 01:40:08.720 the person I did magic for years and I couldn't 1631 01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:11.159 wrap my head around astrology. I feel for people who 1632 01:40:11.239 --> 01:40:16.199 can't understand it because specifically because I'm trying to scienceify it, 1633 01:40:17.920 --> 01:40:22.960 or I was, but this helped me. I don't know 1634 01:40:23.079 --> 01:40:26.359 how much it'll help everyone, but I'm sure there are 1635 01:40:26.560 --> 01:40:29.800 some people out there that will be interested in understanding 1636 01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:38.520 this the basic premise of astrology, like Jamie saying, is 1637 01:40:38.640 --> 01:40:42.880 not necessarily that there are these astral rays again a 1638 01:40:43.000 --> 01:40:50.039 substance of sorts. It's more so that everything is interconnected 1639 01:40:50.640 --> 01:40:54.199 on the level of the blueprint, the level of the metaphysic. 1640 01:40:54.760 --> 01:40:57.800 And for those of you that need a little bit 1641 01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:01.800 more of a philosophical or sophistic way of thinking about it, 1642 01:41:03.920 --> 01:41:06.359 we talk about it in Agrippa, you talk about it 1643 01:41:06.439 --> 01:41:11.680 in Iamicus. Any kind of of drawing down effluence has 1644 01:41:11.760 --> 01:41:15.800 to do with this chain of flow, okay, from the divine, 1645 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:23.199 through the celestial to the material. Now that implies like proximity, 1646 01:41:23.760 --> 01:41:25.960 which again there's a truth to that, but there's also 1647 01:41:26.079 --> 01:41:29.439 this other truth and the other truth which was really 1648 01:41:29.720 --> 01:41:33.520 elaborated by the Stoics. But I think Platinus, the quote 1649 01:41:33.600 --> 01:41:37.520 unquote father of neo Platonism, really now that this idea 1650 01:41:37.600 --> 01:41:42.960 of sympatheia sympathy Okay, what he said, and if you're 1651 01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:45.239 familiar with the tree of life you'll understand this, the 1652 01:41:45.359 --> 01:41:49.319 cabalistic tree of life. But he said is that like sympatheia, 1653 01:41:50.039 --> 01:41:54.239 doesn't the fact that everything is I guess the word 1654 01:41:54.279 --> 01:41:59.560 he used was emanations, right, pro odos a moving outward 1655 01:41:59.800 --> 01:42:07.119 and emanation, but he said Platinus specifies because of sympatheia 1656 01:42:08.239 --> 01:42:15.960 that emanation of the spheres doesn't necessarily happen sequentially. It's 1657 01:42:16.159 --> 01:42:20.399 just a hierarchical relationship. It's a series of relationships that 1658 01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:23.239 is happening at the same time. It's the same thing 1659 01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:26.399 with the lightning flash on the tree of life. Kether 1660 01:42:26.640 --> 01:42:29.840 and Malkuth are happening at the same time. They just 1661 01:42:29.920 --> 01:42:36.119 have a hierarchical relationship and this stratification of relationships between them. 1662 01:42:36.319 --> 01:42:38.359 So I don't know how much that helped. It certainly 1663 01:42:38.439 --> 01:42:42.600 helped me to kind of not get caught up in like, Okay, 1664 01:42:42.680 --> 01:42:48.399 I've got this on the one hand, reductive quote unquote 1665 01:42:48.439 --> 01:42:50.640 empirical model of the way that the cosmos works, and 1666 01:42:50.680 --> 01:42:52.359 then on the other hand, I've got this like I 1667 01:42:52.399 --> 01:42:55.720 don't know, German fairy tale. I don't want to have 1668 01:42:56.000 --> 01:42:58.960 either of those. What was much more satisfying to me 1669 01:42:59.159 --> 01:43:03.880 and lined up with my phenomenology. The experience of practicing 1670 01:43:03.920 --> 01:43:09.000 astrological magic is to view everything as having this sympathea 1671 01:43:09.159 --> 01:43:13.880 right where it's there is relationship to each other, but 1672 01:43:13.960 --> 01:43:20.640 it's not necessarily that you know, everything is sequential or linear, 1673 01:43:20.760 --> 01:43:24.560 let's say, right, because then that's how metaphysical causality happens, 1674 01:43:24.680 --> 01:43:25.960 is that it's not linear. 1675 01:43:28.560 --> 01:43:35.960 Right exactly. Felix for Tuna Rex is asking king of 1676 01:43:36.079 --> 01:43:41.960 happy fortune is asking Modern astrology compared to ancient astrology, 1677 01:43:42.399 --> 01:43:45.960 modern using the outer planets or just the original five 1678 01:43:46.079 --> 01:43:50.880 plus the two luminaries. I think that's worth talking about 1679 01:43:50.920 --> 01:43:55.159 for a second, just for just on the basic astrological level, 1680 01:43:55.800 --> 01:44:02.880 Traditional astrology just uses the visible planet Uranus Neptune and Pluto. 1681 01:44:04.119 --> 01:44:06.560 Urinus was discovered I want to say seventeen eighty one 1682 01:44:06.680 --> 01:44:09.600 by Herschel, and then later for the I think it 1683 01:44:09.720 --> 01:44:12.880 was like nineteen thirty or something when they discovered Pluto. 1684 01:44:13.319 --> 01:44:17.119 But those being invisible planets, the ancients knew nothing of 1685 01:44:17.239 --> 01:44:21.119 them until telescopes, of course, but because and if you 1686 01:44:21.239 --> 01:44:24.319 do use them, I never use them. But I don't 1687 01:44:24.359 --> 01:44:27.079 do a lot of mundane astrology. If I did mundane 1688 01:44:27.239 --> 01:44:30.279 or worldly astrology talking about current events and things like that, 1689 01:44:30.399 --> 01:44:33.920 I would absolutely look at the outer planets, the trans 1690 01:44:34.039 --> 01:44:37.720 Attorneian planets, because they're generational. They have to do more 1691 01:44:37.800 --> 01:44:41.840 with groups of people and civilizations and stuff. Because they 1692 01:44:42.840 --> 01:44:44.760 it takes I want to say, two hundred and eighty 1693 01:44:44.840 --> 01:44:48.239 four years or something like that for Pluto to make 1694 01:44:48.319 --> 01:44:54.319 a complete orbital cycle. So if you're doing natal astrology 1695 01:44:54.439 --> 01:44:56.880 or electional astrology or stuff like that, I wouldn't even 1696 01:44:56.920 --> 01:45:00.159 bother with them they're doing, unless maybe you we have 1697 01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:04.520 a very partile conjunction, you know, like you're like, you're 1698 01:45:05.079 --> 01:45:09.319 your Pluto is right on the very degree of your Mars. 1699 01:45:09.439 --> 01:45:11.720 You might consider it a little bit, and that's just 1700 01:45:11.840 --> 01:45:15.359 stacking your that's just Mars a little you know, a 1701 01:45:15.399 --> 01:45:17.840 little like swoll or whatever. 1702 01:45:19.039 --> 01:45:22.159 Jamie, I gotta know what about the asteroids. So we've 1703 01:45:22.239 --> 01:45:27.119 had people on talking about the significance of the asteroids 1704 01:45:27.159 --> 01:45:31.399 in their own personal readings and how how accurate the 1705 01:45:31.600 --> 01:45:35.159 asteroids are when combining them with the other two forms, 1706 01:45:35.560 --> 01:45:38.840 which then creates sort of like a three locking mechanism, right, 1707 01:45:38.960 --> 01:45:41.960 So like three terms would be you know, you've got 1708 01:45:42.000 --> 01:45:45.079 the zodiac on the outside, the planets on the inside, 1709 01:45:45.119 --> 01:45:48.960 and then a further significator would be the asteroids, which 1710 01:45:49.000 --> 01:45:52.920 would bring more meaning to the situation. What are you 1711 01:45:53.000 --> 01:45:53.880 guys' thoughts on that? 1712 01:45:56.439 --> 01:45:59.600 I think, yeah, that could fine tune some things I 1713 01:45:59.680 --> 01:46:02.720 don't I personally don't work with them. I do some 1714 01:46:02.840 --> 01:46:07.279 fixed star work, you know, I'd like to consider the 1715 01:46:07.359 --> 01:46:11.520 fixed stars, but asteroids, I just you know, I just 1716 01:46:11.640 --> 01:46:15.279 haven't gotten into them. It's not enough, not enough time 1717 01:46:15.359 --> 01:46:16.119 in the day. I guess. 1718 01:46:16.159 --> 01:46:16.520 I don't know. 1719 01:46:17.960 --> 01:46:21.439 It's funny all of them, all of them are named 1720 01:46:21.479 --> 01:46:24.239 by the Vatican, right the Vatican are the ones choosing 1721 01:46:24.319 --> 01:46:26.600 these names for these asteroids that it all comes from 1722 01:46:27.439 --> 01:46:30.960 really significant Greek myths. So they're not naming this stuff 1723 01:46:31.000 --> 01:46:33.119 after any of these saints or any of these popes 1724 01:46:33.199 --> 01:46:35.239 or anything. It's it's really strange if you. 1725 01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:35.720 Think about it. 1726 01:46:36.079 --> 01:46:41.359 But yeah, they're accurate equivocations of these different planets, and 1727 01:46:41.359 --> 01:46:44.239 their significance in these charts is amazing because you can 1728 01:46:44.319 --> 01:46:46.720 just plug this stuff right in and start to figure 1729 01:46:46.760 --> 01:46:50.439 out what did she call it? With some form of 1730 01:46:50.720 --> 01:46:54.720 like crime astrology, Like that's where the main focus was. 1731 01:46:55.199 --> 01:46:58.239 I forgot her name, but she was using the asteroids that, yeah, 1732 01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:02.920 she was getting really really tight predictions on you know, 1733 01:47:03.039 --> 01:47:06.279 crime astrology. Forensic astrology, that's. 1734 01:47:06.199 --> 01:47:06.640 What you called it. 1735 01:47:08.640 --> 01:47:09.159 I could see that. 1736 01:47:11.960 --> 01:47:15.319 Uh, when you had mentioned something before about like I guess, uh, 1737 01:47:15.960 --> 01:47:18.319 you have mentioned earlier about like ways of bringing things 1738 01:47:18.359 --> 01:47:22.079 down into form. I know what you were saying talking 1739 01:47:22.079 --> 01:47:25.760 about earlier is pre dates the yad Vade formula probably, 1740 01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:27.399 but would you look at that as like another you know, 1741 01:47:27.880 --> 01:47:28.560 way of doing that. 1742 01:47:32.520 --> 01:47:35.479 Uh, and you go to hey Vave formula in terms of. 1743 01:47:35.920 --> 01:47:38.039 Like actually using that to bring something down into like 1744 01:47:38.119 --> 01:47:38.720 you're working or. 1745 01:47:41.439 --> 01:47:45.840 Personally. I uh so this is something that you're probably 1746 01:47:45.880 --> 01:47:48.960 you're probably referring to the four worlds method of of 1747 01:47:49.279 --> 01:47:52.000 of of drawing down through the letters of the tetragrammaton. 1748 01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:56.920 I I gotta be honest with you, I think that. 1749 01:47:59.039 --> 01:48:01.720 So there's there's two main things that I've learned about 1750 01:48:01.760 --> 01:48:07.960 astrological practice. You have to it has to take place 1751 01:48:08.119 --> 01:48:12.920 at a good time, at an appropriate time, kind of 1752 01:48:12.960 --> 01:48:16.720 like what Matt was saying earlier. But then the other 1753 01:48:16.880 --> 01:48:19.399 the other piece is and the Pika Trick talks about 1754 01:48:19.439 --> 01:48:21.760 this right out of the gate, right out of the gate, 1755 01:48:21.840 --> 01:48:28.560 right this this eleventh century astrological magical book Can talismancy 1756 01:48:28.640 --> 01:48:33.880 et cetera. It opens up with the really opens up 1757 01:48:33.920 --> 01:48:37.000 with the first practical pieces in like chapter four or 1758 01:48:37.079 --> 01:48:40.960 something with the the uh the mentions of the moon. 1759 01:48:41.920 --> 01:48:45.720 But it mentions multiple times you could do this stuff 1760 01:48:45.760 --> 01:48:49.479 if you don't believe it. If there's any doubt, it 1761 01:48:49.960 --> 01:48:53.119 won't work. It won't like the Pika trick says that 1762 01:48:53.359 --> 01:48:56.680 not me, and but I have found that to be 1763 01:48:56.880 --> 01:48:59.840 very true, so that those are my requirements really for 1764 01:49:00.079 --> 01:49:05.560 drawing things down. The other you know, I wouldn't use 1765 01:49:05.720 --> 01:49:09.800 like a Yodhey vave formula. Just I'm getting disenchanted with 1766 01:49:10.119 --> 01:49:12.680 with I don't even know if I should say this, 1767 01:49:12.760 --> 01:49:17.119 but I'm getting disenchanted with kabalistic magic. I'm really reverting 1768 01:49:17.279 --> 01:49:20.800 much more to nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong 1769 01:49:20.840 --> 01:49:25.920 with it, seriously, it's a very good system. But I'm 1770 01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:30.279 much more interested in in the Hellenic and Hellenistic. I 1771 01:49:30.359 --> 01:49:32.640 think it's because my Greek is a lot better than 1772 01:49:32.720 --> 01:49:37.079 my Hebrew, right, I mean, my my father's from Greece. 1773 01:49:37.239 --> 01:49:42.239 I can speak the language decently, so I'm much more 1774 01:49:42.319 --> 01:49:44.800 interested in what's going on there having sort of an 1775 01:49:44.800 --> 01:49:47.960 ethnic connection to it, I guess a blood connection. But 1776 01:49:49.560 --> 01:49:52.399 the other thing that I think is important for once 1777 01:49:52.479 --> 01:49:55.439 you've drawn the thing down, how to how to test 1778 01:49:55.520 --> 01:49:58.880 if it's actually happened. I think that that's a really 1779 01:49:58.960 --> 01:50:01.960 important thing as well, developing those methods or having a 1780 01:50:02.039 --> 01:50:05.560 teacher show you some of those methods to be able 1781 01:50:05.600 --> 01:50:08.000 to test your work. But those are the three main 1782 01:50:08.079 --> 01:50:10.479 components for me. It's got to happen at the right time. 1783 01:50:11.479 --> 01:50:11.640 You know. 1784 01:50:11.680 --> 01:50:14.199 You got to have the right materials too, Although Warnock 1785 01:50:15.079 --> 01:50:18.920 he gives some really really great examples of paper talismans, 1786 01:50:19.880 --> 01:50:26.680 and I mean the the Daoist magical tradition of talismancy 1787 01:50:26.840 --> 01:50:31.560 and sigil craft also utilized paper. So but for the 1788 01:50:31.640 --> 01:50:34.399 most part, I like to have the right materials. The 1789 01:50:34.520 --> 01:50:41.520 timing is indispensable. Belief assurance, confidence needs to be true, 1790 01:50:41.560 --> 01:50:44.640 belief needs to be there, and then being able to 1791 01:50:44.720 --> 01:50:47.520 test my methods. So I don't know that. I guess 1792 01:50:47.560 --> 01:50:50.560 that doesn't really answer your question, but I wouldn't. I 1793 01:50:50.600 --> 01:50:54.000 don't really use that method. The only method I've used 1794 01:50:54.079 --> 01:50:59.960 capitalistically has been you know, the hexagram and Arorita formula 1795 01:51:00.119 --> 01:51:03.560 to bring things down. But you know, you're you're going 1796 01:51:03.760 --> 01:51:07.000 through the entire hierarchy. You know, you're when you're when 1797 01:51:07.039 --> 01:51:08.920 you're doing the hexagram, or you open up the you 1798 01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:12.560 do lesser hexagram and kind of create the area. Then 1799 01:51:12.600 --> 01:51:15.880 you you have the targeted greater hexagram, which is facing 1800 01:51:15.960 --> 01:51:19.119 the constellation or the planet wherever the quarter of the 1801 01:51:19.199 --> 01:51:23.359 heavens where this planetary you know, effluence is its body 1802 01:51:23.479 --> 01:51:28.399 is located. And then you you you call in the hierarchy, 1803 01:51:28.479 --> 01:51:31.319 so you start at the highest divine name and work 1804 01:51:31.439 --> 01:51:34.119 your way down that's associated with the planetary sphere, all 1805 01:51:34.159 --> 01:51:36.600 the way down to the spirit. And then it just 1806 01:51:36.640 --> 01:51:38.720 depends like what what are you trying to do? You know, 1807 01:51:38.800 --> 01:51:41.079 are you doing the talisman? Do you just want to 1808 01:51:41.279 --> 01:51:44.239 bathe in the ambiance of the planet. That's the thing too. 1809 01:51:44.319 --> 01:51:44.920 People do that. 1810 01:51:46.399 --> 01:51:49.439 Yeah, well that now just probably make myself so stupid. 1811 01:51:49.479 --> 01:51:51.640 But if you talk about the hexagram, that would be 1812 01:51:51.680 --> 01:51:53.920 more of like the lv X actually than right, or 1813 01:51:54.039 --> 01:51:56.920 is that the same if you look at them? Yeah, no, absolutely, 1814 01:51:57.079 --> 01:52:00.119 I mean that that because like that I feel it 1815 01:52:00.279 --> 01:52:02.399 kind of gives you the idea that if you're invoking 1816 01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:03.760 you or pulling something down. 1817 01:52:04.840 --> 01:52:08.880 Yeah, we call it the chef a in in kabalistic magic. 1818 01:52:09.239 --> 01:52:11.920 When you're doing you know, the the vibration of the 1819 01:52:12.039 --> 01:52:13.920 names and then you drop your arms at the side, 1820 01:52:14.159 --> 01:52:17.079 the chefa is supposed to enter. The one reason I 1821 01:52:17.159 --> 01:52:20.319 don't recommend the LVX to people is because it's the 1822 01:52:20.439 --> 01:52:25.399 adept formula of the Golden Dawn it's not the adept 1823 01:52:25.479 --> 01:52:30.960 formula of the Crolean stuff because he changes, he takes 1824 01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:35.760 out or moves the position of the crucified and resurrected God. 1825 01:52:35.800 --> 01:52:38.479 That's not the prime, primary thing. And the Golden Dawn 1826 01:52:38.520 --> 01:52:43.159 Osiris is the primary thing, the resurrecting God. And the 1827 01:52:43.239 --> 01:52:45.560 reason why I say that is because it's LVX is 1828 01:52:45.600 --> 01:52:48.880 a magical formula. So if you are, if you are 1829 01:52:48.960 --> 01:52:52.159 invoking that formula consistently, what you're not understanding is that 1830 01:52:52.239 --> 01:52:57.119 it's a formula of death. It's and that's I don't 1831 01:52:57.159 --> 01:52:59.199 know how much anybody knows about the five equals six 1832 01:52:59.279 --> 01:53:02.319 of the Golden Dawn. I won't put any spoilers has 1833 01:53:02.600 --> 01:53:05.880 very much to do with this idea of death and rebirth, 1834 01:53:06.399 --> 01:53:11.479 and that you know, that initiatory current that you're invoking 1835 01:53:12.039 --> 01:53:16.000 will will you're asking, you know, put me to death, 1836 01:53:16.600 --> 01:53:19.479 put you know, lowercase m me to death. 1837 01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:21.760 I use that ship for about four years straight. 1838 01:53:22.039 --> 01:53:25.640 Exactly so so I do. But you know, and it 1839 01:53:25.720 --> 01:53:28.840 can create a lot of in my experience and in 1840 01:53:28.920 --> 01:53:32.800 the experience of other Golden Dawn practitioners that I've worked with, 1841 01:53:33.199 --> 01:53:37.479 it can create a lot of unwanted or or you know, 1842 01:53:37.840 --> 01:53:41.319 just intense stuff. So again it's another reason why I like, 1843 01:53:41.439 --> 01:53:45.359 I don't like to really I don't often recommend, even 1844 01:53:45.399 --> 01:53:48.439 in the private classes I give, I don't often recommend 1845 01:53:48.600 --> 01:53:51.760 that people pull rituals out of like the Golden Dawn 1846 01:53:53.079 --> 01:53:57.560 whole cloth. And if you're not working that system, it's. 1847 01:53:57.439 --> 01:53:59.800 A good uh, it's good advice. 1848 01:54:01.119 --> 01:54:03.960 Maybe, you know. I'm sure there's some people that are like, 1849 01:54:04.119 --> 01:54:06.199 fuck this guy, I did the LVX, I got a car. 1850 01:54:07.119 --> 01:54:11.720 You didn't know that one? 1851 01:54:13.000 --> 01:54:19.359 What the fuck is I doing wrong? Yes? Is there 1852 01:54:19.399 --> 01:54:22.279 any other questions in the chat that maybe I just 1853 01:54:22.319 --> 01:54:22.800 wanted to say. 1854 01:54:23.039 --> 01:54:25.720 I appreciated what I said, everything you said about colosting 1855 01:54:25.840 --> 01:54:30.199 magic and uh correspondences and like utilizing the system of 1856 01:54:31.600 --> 01:54:36.600 I mean, because I don't have cultural My cultural familiarity 1857 01:54:36.680 --> 01:54:41.239 with certain things is you know, I don't have like 1858 01:54:41.319 --> 01:54:43.199 a mix. So it's like for me, it's like I 1859 01:54:43.399 --> 01:54:45.920 just draw from like what I know, but it's not 1860 01:54:46.079 --> 01:54:49.840 necessarily because I have like a deep rooted, like blood 1861 01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:50.359 memory of it. 1862 01:54:50.479 --> 01:54:52.199 But I yeah, I try and I try and do that. 1863 01:54:52.239 --> 01:54:53.279 But I appreciate what you said. 1864 01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:55.560 Everything that you said, I think it was important to hear. 1865 01:54:55.640 --> 01:54:57.720 And even the thing about the five and the six 1866 01:54:57.880 --> 01:55:01.560 is very interesting because there's a the Vodrosova tantra that 1867 01:55:01.800 --> 01:55:04.359 just talks about He says, like in the tontra, the 1868 01:55:04.880 --> 01:55:07.399 five or the six arises in the five, but then 1869 01:55:07.760 --> 01:55:11.199 the six also has to descend back into the five 1870 01:55:11.800 --> 01:55:13.000 to like do something with it. 1871 01:55:13.199 --> 01:55:15.199 So I don't know, the kind of reminds me of 1872 01:55:15.640 --> 01:55:17.680 that dialogical relationship. 1873 01:55:20.359 --> 01:55:26.239 Well, go ahead, I was, I was, I was just 1874 01:55:26.359 --> 01:55:32.800 leaving forward, so I was gonna ask. I was going 1875 01:55:32.880 --> 01:55:35.840 to ask about origin. So I think a lot of 1876 01:55:35.880 --> 01:55:40.479 this goes into actual celebration of the birthday itself as 1877 01:55:40.600 --> 01:55:45.239 being an astrologically significant event, because I see that origin. 1878 01:55:45.319 --> 01:55:47.920 One of the early Church fathers said that no saints 1879 01:55:48.039 --> 01:55:52.079 or righteous individuals in the scripture celebrated their birthdays, asserting 1880 01:55:52.159 --> 01:55:56.479 that such festivities were associated with sinners and pagan practices 1881 01:55:56.640 --> 01:55:58.479 rather than faithful followers of God. 1882 01:55:58.680 --> 01:56:00.920 So the idea of. 1883 01:56:01.199 --> 01:56:04.239 Having a birthday itself doesn't seem to be rooted in 1884 01:56:04.960 --> 01:56:07.399 sort of the Abrahamic traditions at all. It's it's like 1885 01:56:07.479 --> 01:56:10.680 a carryover even after they try to get rid of 1886 01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:12.840 most of these pagan practices. People didn't want to get 1887 01:56:12.920 --> 01:56:16.319 rid of their own birthdays and these celebrations having to 1888 01:56:16.439 --> 01:56:19.560 do with you know, the ancient gods. We've we've sort 1889 01:56:19.600 --> 01:56:22.800 of left all of those conceptions of the birthday out 1890 01:56:23.239 --> 01:56:24.960 and just sort of stuck with the date. 1891 01:56:25.720 --> 01:56:30.239 It's kind of interesting, you know. 1892 01:56:30.319 --> 01:56:33.399 I mean, if if you're you're talking, well it's because 1893 01:56:34.880 --> 01:56:37.560 you know, and some people will just attribute this to 1894 01:56:37.600 --> 01:56:40.880 the Gnostics. But growing up Catholic and in the Orthodox Church, 1895 01:56:41.159 --> 01:56:46.039 like Greek Orthodox Church, I can tell you, like all 1896 01:56:46.199 --> 01:56:51.760 forms of older Christianity are are they're not world affirming, Okay, 1897 01:56:51.920 --> 01:56:55.600 they so they don't the incarnation. The only incarnation that 1898 01:56:55.720 --> 01:56:58.479 really mattered was was was the birth of Christ and 1899 01:56:59.359 --> 01:57:04.359 and it's it's it's not necessarily as as as like 1900 01:57:04.760 --> 01:57:09.640 world denying as some of the Gnostic sects, particularly the Sethianans, right, 1901 01:57:09.720 --> 01:57:12.239 the Valentinians were not that world denying. They they didn't 1902 01:57:12.239 --> 01:57:15.760 really think the demiurge was evil. Uh, it's just said 1903 01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:19.039 that people just we have this bracket term called Gnoscissism 1904 01:57:19.119 --> 01:57:21.680 that we just throw all this bullshit into and so 1905 01:57:22.960 --> 01:57:25.279 you can't you don't really get a really good picture 1906 01:57:25.359 --> 01:57:29.479 of what that was early Christianities we're talking about. But 1907 01:57:30.079 --> 01:57:35.279 even on the right So here's it's a good example. Platinus, 1908 01:57:36.079 --> 01:57:40.279 father of Neoplatonism, he wrote a tract, you know, against 1909 01:57:40.359 --> 01:57:43.439 the Gnostics. The thing is, if you he's he's only 1910 01:57:43.680 --> 01:57:48.319 arguing with them theologically, How could you think the demiurge 1911 01:57:48.439 --> 01:57:51.199 is evil? How could you think that but he's not 1912 01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:54.279 arguing with them. The fact that like, oh yeah, but 1913 01:57:54.399 --> 01:57:58.039 don't you know, don't indulge anything. I mean, porphyry starts 1914 01:57:58.119 --> 01:58:02.760 the life of Pythagoras, getting of his biography goes or 1915 01:58:02.840 --> 01:58:09.960 the life of Platinus, says Platinus seemed to be ashamed 1916 01:58:10.279 --> 01:58:13.119 to be in a body. I mean, so even even 1917 01:58:13.159 --> 01:58:16.840 in the pagan practices that we're trying to have this 1918 01:58:17.079 --> 01:58:22.319 anagogic ascent through various means, we're not. They didn't look 1919 01:58:22.600 --> 01:58:26.960 very well on at at worldliness. Now that's that's where 1920 01:58:27.039 --> 01:58:30.199 you get Eamlicus, who says, hey, guys, it's not all 1921 01:58:30.239 --> 01:58:34.680 about transcendence. There's imminence too, And yeah, there has to 1922 01:58:34.760 --> 01:58:37.920 be imminence otherwise there's no order and magic doesn't work 1923 01:58:37.960 --> 01:58:41.359 and nothing works at that point. So I in that sense, 1924 01:58:41.399 --> 01:58:47.880 I I I it's a very especially for theoretic magician there, 1925 01:58:48.199 --> 01:58:53.520 it's a very nuanced uh sort of line that you 1926 01:58:53.720 --> 01:58:56.359 have to that you have to walk. What do you 1927 01:58:56.399 --> 01:58:57.840 think about that, Jamie, I'm interested. 1928 01:58:59.520 --> 01:59:05.560 I like uh Gregory Palamis's uh uh sort of solution 1929 01:59:05.760 --> 01:59:08.560 to that. Well, it wasn't totally his, but he did 1930 01:59:08.640 --> 01:59:10.920 the best sort of articulation of it. I think is 1931 01:59:11.079 --> 01:59:15.840 uh lusia and energeia, that the essence of God is 1932 01:59:16.119 --> 01:59:22.479 uh apathetic, it's you know, ineffable, et cetera. We can't 1933 01:59:22.920 --> 01:59:26.279 know anything about it. You know, we can't define it 1934 01:59:26.399 --> 01:59:32.640 in any meaningful sense. It's just completely escapes our mentation entirely. 1935 01:59:33.840 --> 01:59:41.479 But we could know it's or his energies in the world. 1936 01:59:41.600 --> 01:59:47.319 It's activities in the world. So I think I forget 1937 01:59:47.399 --> 01:59:51.800 where this started in the in this conversation, but that's 1938 01:59:51.880 --> 01:59:55.000 where I when when you were talking. That's kind of 1939 01:59:55.039 --> 01:59:57.000 what I was thinking about near the end, there is 1940 01:59:57.199 --> 02:00:02.199 uh That's that's one way oh about about going back. 1941 02:00:02.640 --> 02:00:10.840 So theosis, at least in uh some orthodox circles, theosis 1942 02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:16.840 is made possible by energeia, by activities in the world. 1943 02:00:17.359 --> 02:00:20.479 So just let and you know, it sounds very close 1944 02:00:20.960 --> 02:00:25.560 to the synthemata that are sewn into reality, you know. 1945 02:00:26.520 --> 02:00:29.279 And uh in fact, a lot of that, you know, 1946 02:00:29.800 --> 02:00:35.119 as it passes through Pseudodionysius and and others. You know, 1947 02:00:35.399 --> 02:00:39.319 Amplotonis who was you know, not to mention origin and 1948 02:00:40.600 --> 02:00:44.960 Clement of Alexandria. How a lot of this makes it 1949 02:00:45.039 --> 02:00:50.319 into the early Church fathers and and a lot of this, uh, 1950 02:00:51.239 --> 02:00:57.000 you know, late Platonic, theogical stuff, these ideas, you know, 1951 02:00:57.199 --> 02:00:59.680 and if you look at icons, for example, they're they're 1952 02:00:59.800 --> 02:01:03.000 not just you know, icon of carvers. They're they're not 1953 02:01:03.199 --> 02:01:08.279 just making a painting. These are windows to the noetic realm, 1954 02:01:08.359 --> 02:01:12.439 you know. These are like these are like real portals 1955 02:01:12.880 --> 02:01:18.279 sort of you know, metaphysically, So there's there's an intact, 1956 02:01:19.039 --> 02:01:21.800 you know. I think late Platonism is sort of alive 1957 02:01:21.880 --> 02:01:25.560 and well, uh and it's it's as hidden as uh 1958 02:01:26.239 --> 02:01:32.600 as pollomoombay or whatever is in Santa Ria or Catholicism, 1959 02:01:32.800 --> 02:01:38.079 you know how you know, these uh urubin magical initiatic 1960 02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:42.720 traditions were hidden under the veneer a finn veneer of 1961 02:01:43.039 --> 02:01:45.319 Catholic Saints and stuff like that, just so they can 1962 02:01:45.800 --> 02:01:48.239 you know. I think I think there's a similar sort 1963 02:01:48.279 --> 02:01:55.000 of mechanism and earlier and similar mechanism with some late 1964 02:01:55.039 --> 02:01:59.600 Platonic ideas and Christianity, how they're there's sort of Orthodoxy 1965 02:01:59.640 --> 02:02:02.880 as a aproaching horse for some of that stuff, let's say. 1966 02:02:06.840 --> 02:02:08.560 And I don't know if that has anything to do 1967 02:02:08.680 --> 02:02:11.159 with what we were talking about, but I feel like 1968 02:02:11.720 --> 02:02:14.640 I feel like Energies and Essences was a place we 1969 02:02:14.720 --> 02:02:15.119 were going. 1970 02:02:15.439 --> 02:02:15.880 Is that right? 1971 02:02:17.000 --> 02:02:17.199 Yeah? 1972 02:02:17.239 --> 02:02:19.199 That could be like a really good title for a 1973 02:02:19.279 --> 02:02:22.640 new age he like a new age music album. Energies 1974 02:02:22.720 --> 02:02:30.119 and Essences. It's somebody playing a Tibetan bowl for four hours. 1975 02:02:31.479 --> 02:02:38.000 Exactly, anybody, it's already two hours. I mean, I hate 1976 02:02:38.000 --> 02:02:39.279 to wrap it up. I guess we have to stop 1977 02:02:39.319 --> 02:02:42.039 at some point. Did anybody have any questions or anything before? 1978 02:02:42.640 --> 02:02:44.119 Well, I did have a question to go for it, 1979 02:02:44.880 --> 02:02:47.840 get it off, okay, one moment here I have it 1980 02:02:47.920 --> 02:02:53.560 written down, So I guess, just whatever you know you 1981 02:02:53.640 --> 02:02:55.520 want to respond to out of this. But I had 1982 02:02:55.600 --> 02:02:57.960 several kind of points here I wanted to ask about. 1983 02:02:58.600 --> 02:03:00.760 And I'm glad I waited because I did hear you 1984 02:03:00.920 --> 02:03:04.479 mentioned the Porphyry tree, and my understanding is that may 1985 02:03:04.600 --> 02:03:07.159 have been you know, how we ended up with like 1986 02:03:07.239 --> 02:03:11.119 the Tree of life suffaro kind of model today with 1987 02:03:11.199 --> 02:03:14.720 the paths. It seems like it does begin, is that, 1988 02:03:15.279 --> 02:03:18.079 And then I was going to mention Kersher, who then 1989 02:03:18.760 --> 02:03:22.399 added the letters to the paths, and then you guys 1990 02:03:22.479 --> 02:03:24.399 ended up saying it. So that's why I like to 1991 02:03:24.479 --> 02:03:27.479 wait a lot of times, so it makes more sense 1992 02:03:27.520 --> 02:03:29.000 when I actually talk about it, I guess. 1993 02:03:29.600 --> 02:03:32.520 But anyway, my question was kind of like. 1994 02:03:34.039 --> 02:03:38.960 Referencing these letters on the paths, and so when we're 1995 02:03:39.000 --> 02:03:42.880 dealing with the path between Malcouth and Yasode, are we 1996 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:47.399 kind of dealing with like the firmament there and these 1997 02:03:48.199 --> 02:03:51.720 letters that are on those paths there. I was looking 1998 02:03:51.800 --> 02:03:53.840 at them, and it seems to me that it's like 1999 02:03:54.640 --> 02:03:59.960 Lamed mem Nunn and Dalette and you guys were talking 2000 02:04:00.039 --> 02:04:03.520 about windows and doors just a moment ago, even speculatively, 2001 02:04:04.119 --> 02:04:06.159 But it makes me think of the door in heaven 2002 02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:09.359 or the portals in heaven through which God would send 2003 02:04:09.399 --> 02:04:12.840 the waters to flood the earth, or he sends his 2004 02:04:13.039 --> 02:04:17.560 seed Christ or his prophets, or where you know, our 2005 02:04:17.640 --> 02:04:21.279 birthdays are kind of celebrated as when we passed through 2006 02:04:21.279 --> 02:04:25.520 the door of heaven right, and his shepherds like his 2007 02:04:25.680 --> 02:04:31.039 profits right. So I just was curious if maybe that's 2008 02:04:31.119 --> 02:04:33.720 what the lunar mansions are all about is maybe it's 2009 02:04:33.880 --> 02:04:36.960 the door to the mansion, so to speak. And maybe 2010 02:04:37.039 --> 02:04:40.880 that's why these times are important, because doing something at 2011 02:04:40.880 --> 02:04:42.640 the wrong time would be like trying to get through 2012 02:04:42.680 --> 02:04:45.520 the wall of the mansion rather than the door, so 2013 02:04:45.680 --> 02:04:48.439 to speak. Right, And it makes me think of references 2014 02:04:48.960 --> 02:04:51.560 christ even made to about how like the way is narrow, 2015 02:04:51.720 --> 02:04:56.119 you know, so maybe there are importances to take note of. 2016 02:04:58.239 --> 02:04:58.399 Here. 2017 02:04:58.520 --> 02:04:59.680 And then let me see here. 2018 02:05:00.319 --> 02:05:03.680 Oh, I think I mentioned earlier how only the sub 2019 02:05:03.800 --> 02:05:06.600 loonar can be changed, and so I guess I kind 2020 02:05:06.600 --> 02:05:08.720 of had a question about whether or not the pip 2021 02:05:08.840 --> 02:05:13.399 cards is that do they only rest in the domain 2022 02:05:13.439 --> 02:05:17.680 of Malcouth where they where change can occur, representing the 2023 02:05:17.760 --> 02:05:22.720 four elements, Yet they don't seem to be important above that, 2024 02:05:23.319 --> 02:05:23.479 you know? 2025 02:05:23.720 --> 02:05:24.560 So uh? 2026 02:05:24.880 --> 02:05:28.359 And do they represent this four seasons that occur on 2027 02:05:28.479 --> 02:05:32.279 Malcouth perhaps? So anyway, sorry, I tried to do a 2028 02:05:32.319 --> 02:05:35.079 good job of threading together my question, thank you. 2029 02:05:35.840 --> 02:05:36.000 Yeah. 2030 02:05:36.079 --> 02:05:37.880 I don't know if Jamie wants to tackle the first 2031 02:05:37.920 --> 02:05:40.760 part of that, but I have ideas about the pips 2032 02:05:41.520 --> 02:05:42.520 well in the. 2033 02:05:42.640 --> 02:05:45.479 How the porphyry tree. Maybe is that a good diagram 2034 02:05:45.560 --> 02:05:48.000 of the chain that you guys have talked. 2035 02:05:47.760 --> 02:05:51.319 About Porphyry poor for the thing. I think the thing 2036 02:05:51.359 --> 02:05:53.479 that people get wrong about Porphyry's tree is that it 2037 02:05:53.600 --> 02:05:58.479 wasn't It wasn't really Porphyry. It was so Porphyry wrote 2038 02:05:58.600 --> 02:06:02.399 this introduction because one of his like students or some 2039 02:06:02.560 --> 02:06:04.399 one of his friends was having a really hard time. 2040 02:06:04.600 --> 02:06:08.880 Actually it was a Roman like politician having a really 2041 02:06:08.920 --> 02:06:13.359 hard time understanding Aristotle's categories. Aristotle wrote it that way. 2042 02:06:13.560 --> 02:06:17.039 So you know, there's that like fabled transaction or that 2043 02:06:17.159 --> 02:06:20.159 letter between Alexander and Aristotle where he goes, you know, 2044 02:06:20.239 --> 02:06:26.479 Alexander's expressing disapproval about Aristotle publishing his teachings, and Aristotle goes, I, yes, 2045 02:06:26.560 --> 02:06:29.640 I have published it, but I also haven't. So it 2046 02:06:29.720 --> 02:06:33.479 was supposed to be very very rigorous, esoteric. So Porphyry 2047 02:06:33.520 --> 02:06:37.279 writes this thing called the Isago Gay, the introduction very 2048 02:06:37.359 --> 02:06:39.560 very I just finished reading it for the second time, 2049 02:06:39.680 --> 02:06:46.199 like two days ago, and he's showing how Aristotle, you know, 2050 02:06:46.479 --> 02:06:50.159 uses what is essentially a platonic technique that has developed 2051 02:06:50.199 --> 02:06:54.439 in the Sophist platonic dialogue. The sofis showing how Aristotle 2052 02:06:54.560 --> 02:07:03.479 breaks everything down into genus species, different particularity and accident. 2053 02:07:03.880 --> 02:07:06.760 And so that's why we get the Porphyris tree. It's 2054 02:07:06.880 --> 02:07:11.560 really Porphyry's kind of pedagogical model of teaching Aristotle. So 2055 02:07:11.800 --> 02:07:21.359 I'm ultimately the idea is platonic. Yeah, I don't know 2056 02:07:21.399 --> 02:07:23.520 what the other Yeah, I don't know what what you 2057 02:07:23.720 --> 02:07:26.079 maybe you want to repeat the part about like the firmament. 2058 02:07:26.319 --> 02:07:27.239 I didn't know. 2059 02:07:27.520 --> 02:07:30.600 Well, I just found how like on that particular model, 2060 02:07:30.640 --> 02:07:33.239 how it's evolved from that tree, you know, become what 2061 02:07:33.319 --> 02:07:36.720 it is now. We kind of have like the sun 2062 02:07:36.800 --> 02:07:40.520 and the moon and the stars kind of there resonating 2063 02:07:40.600 --> 02:07:43.600 with the lower paths, you know. And then there's also 2064 02:07:43.680 --> 02:07:47.199 these letters, And I was wondering if maybe just any 2065 02:07:47.279 --> 02:07:50.560 insights that maybe came from that, maybe doors and portals 2066 02:07:50.600 --> 02:07:55.159 into heaven, et cetera. And if the pip cards kind 2067 02:07:55.199 --> 02:07:58.399 of represented the seasons, the four seasons on Malcouth, you know, 2068 02:07:58.560 --> 02:08:01.920 like because they don't seem to occur up above it. 2069 02:08:02.159 --> 02:08:04.720 You said like sub lunar was where all the change occurred, 2070 02:08:04.760 --> 02:08:06.560 you know. So I was wondering if maybe the pit 2071 02:08:06.720 --> 02:08:09.560 cards kind of made sense down there on Malcouth. 2072 02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:15.399 Only Well there's there's definitely the arrangement, this standard Golden 2073 02:08:15.479 --> 02:08:18.840 Dawn arrangement, but there's also uh, you know, I tend 2074 02:08:18.920 --> 02:08:22.520 to look at Taro sort of cosmically, where you know, 2075 02:08:22.680 --> 02:08:27.319 you get you get oliph Mam and Sheen, you know, 2076 02:08:28.359 --> 02:08:33.560 the fool, the hanged Man and judgment right where they're 2077 02:08:33.840 --> 02:08:37.000 down there elemental, right, so they would be sort of 2078 02:08:37.079 --> 02:08:41.479 at the bottom. Uh. And then with maybe the uh 2079 02:08:41.840 --> 02:08:45.000 the operator representing the Earth element because obviously ol of 2080 02:08:45.119 --> 02:08:51.319 Man machine that's that's air, fire, air, water and fire, 2081 02:08:51.880 --> 02:08:54.119 so you wouldn't have an Earth there, so maybe the 2082 02:08:54.199 --> 02:08:57.279 operator is Earth, I think some people sometimes say. But 2083 02:08:57.359 --> 02:09:04.119 then there's the seven double letter cards. Are the planets 2084 02:09:04.279 --> 02:09:08.600 the planetary spheres above that from the Moon up to Saturn, 2085 02:09:09.319 --> 02:09:12.560 and then you're at beina there cobble of you know, 2086 02:09:12.680 --> 02:09:17.079 in terms of sepharotically, let's say, and then the firmament 2087 02:09:17.159 --> 02:09:22.000 would be the eighth sphere, which would be Hokma, right, 2088 02:09:22.920 --> 02:09:28.039 So Hokma I think most people understand to be the firmament. 2089 02:09:30.199 --> 02:09:33.520 And then beyond that, you know, you'd have kether the crown, 2090 02:09:33.640 --> 02:09:39.159 which is sort of any attic or no etic I mean, 2091 02:09:39.760 --> 02:09:41.479 that's how I kind of look at Oh, and then 2092 02:09:41.960 --> 02:09:44.800 the pip cards. I see them as decans, you know. 2093 02:09:45.439 --> 02:09:48.720 So you've got like two, three, four, Well, there's a 2094 02:09:48.800 --> 02:09:53.199 way to lay them out, you know. And there's thirty 2095 02:09:53.279 --> 02:09:55.520 six of them if you take the aces out, so 2096 02:09:55.680 --> 02:09:58.880 there's a way to make those. You can make a 2097 02:09:59.039 --> 02:10:03.239 really nice circle. Uh. With all of this, it's actually 2098 02:10:03.279 --> 02:10:06.199 a neat little exercise where you use all the cards 2099 02:10:06.319 --> 02:10:10.159 and uh and you make this cosmic model that emanates 2100 02:10:10.199 --> 02:10:13.520 from the Earth and the center out to the beyond 2101 02:10:13.560 --> 02:10:16.960 the any add or up to the any add or 2102 02:10:17.000 --> 02:10:22.199 the no edic sphere. But but yeah, there's I mean 2103 02:10:22.199 --> 02:10:23.880 there's tons of stuff you could do with the taro. 2104 02:10:24.000 --> 02:10:26.720 I mean it's it's really a portable temple. You know, 2105 02:10:26.880 --> 02:10:31.239 you can orient yourself and and sort of create kind 2106 02:10:31.239 --> 02:10:33.640 of an axis moon to you. I mean I've used 2107 02:10:34.279 --> 02:10:39.079 I've used taro in that that sort of capacity before. 2108 02:10:39.359 --> 02:10:42.800 It's it's really a neat uh, a neat way to 2109 02:10:42.960 --> 02:10:47.439 sort of cosmologically ground yourself. It's a you can essentially 2110 02:10:47.600 --> 02:10:51.640 create a magical circle and do all kinds of uh operate. 2111 02:10:51.760 --> 02:10:55.159 Like if you look in uh solemonic magic, there's always 2112 02:10:55.199 --> 02:10:57.840 this circle. Sometimes there's a triangle of art and that 2113 02:10:58.039 --> 02:11:01.359 moves across the perimeter depending on what direction the demon's 2114 02:11:01.399 --> 02:11:04.640 coming from, et cetera. But it's all cosmological stuff. It's 2115 02:11:04.680 --> 02:11:08.359 all you know, orientation. So I think the best thing 2116 02:11:08.640 --> 02:11:11.239 if you're interested in this stuff again, I wouldn't go 2117 02:11:11.359 --> 02:11:15.039 to Dionfortune or anybody like that. I'd go to Mitch Eliotta, 2118 02:11:15.800 --> 02:11:18.680 you know, and read something like The Sacred and the Profane, 2119 02:11:19.039 --> 02:11:22.560 because that's going to straighten you out and cosmologically that's 2120 02:11:22.560 --> 02:11:25.359 going to give you That's that's the real stuff, you know. 2121 02:11:26.039 --> 02:11:30.439 Me Eliotta E L I A d that book. I 2122 02:11:30.479 --> 02:11:33.920 mean top five for me, top five in my life. Yeah, 2123 02:11:34.079 --> 02:11:35.560 Sacred in the Profane. 2124 02:11:35.560 --> 02:11:38.159 It's up there for me. He gave me words for 2125 02:11:38.279 --> 02:11:43.079 stuff I didn't I didn't have words for. Yeah. I 2126 02:11:43.119 --> 02:11:45.479 would just add that the way that I the way 2127 02:11:45.520 --> 02:11:47.760 that I read the Pips is actually very close to 2128 02:11:47.800 --> 02:11:51.840 what Jamie was talking about earlier. I I used the 2129 02:11:52.000 --> 02:11:55.840 taro I I always have, and I didn't realize it 2130 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:58.039 till maybe five years ago, but I used the taro 2131 02:11:58.279 --> 02:12:01.840 very in a very sort of Pythagorean or neo Pythagorean 2132 02:12:02.319 --> 02:12:04.479 sort of thing. So the PIPS for me, break down 2133 02:12:04.520 --> 02:12:12.479 into elemental sort of decads like tetractys and uh, you 2134 02:12:12.560 --> 02:12:15.680 know four of of of these of the suits representing 2135 02:12:15.720 --> 02:12:20.960 the elements, and they they really if you wanted to 2136 02:12:21.039 --> 02:12:25.880 group them kabalistically, you could group them as as elemental trees. 2137 02:12:26.479 --> 02:12:28.359 But a lot of times they're just put into the 2138 02:12:28.479 --> 02:12:33.079 various cefirot. So if if you wanted to find a 2139 02:12:33.119 --> 02:12:35.479 place where on the tree of life where all these 2140 02:12:35.560 --> 02:12:39.680 things go, maybe you're working with the tree of Asaiah. 2141 02:12:40.239 --> 02:12:40.359 Right. 2142 02:12:40.439 --> 02:12:42.800 If you have that four worlds model of that kind 2143 02:12:42.840 --> 02:12:47.039 of Jacob's ladder where the four interconnected really five interconnected trees, 2144 02:12:47.439 --> 02:12:50.279 you have the bottom world Asaiya. And this is kind 2145 02:12:50.319 --> 02:12:52.760 of what Nick was talking about with the jodey Vave formula. 2146 02:12:53.439 --> 02:12:56.920 Asaiah would have would have its own tree. It's it's 2147 02:12:57.000 --> 02:13:02.279 kind of like this fractalizing microcost some macrocosm tree. That's 2148 02:13:02.319 --> 02:13:05.359 the usefulness of the cabalistic system is that you can 2149 02:13:05.479 --> 02:13:09.760 do this kind of play with it, And so you'd 2150 02:13:09.840 --> 02:13:14.560 have a tree of life in Asiah. And then in 2151 02:13:14.720 --> 02:13:19.840 each one of those sphere at right, Ketter's one, aces 2152 02:13:20.520 --> 02:13:25.039 Kulkma's two, you know two, Pip ben Us three, three, 2153 02:13:25.079 --> 02:13:27.479 Pip that's the way, at least I learned it through 2154 02:13:27.520 --> 02:13:30.760 the Golden Dawn. But it is very pythea agree and 2155 02:13:31.279 --> 02:13:35.560 and it's one system is not you know right, it's 2156 02:13:35.720 --> 02:13:38.079 it's if it's right for you, if it's better for 2157 02:13:38.199 --> 02:13:41.119 you for what you are doing personally. I love the 2158 02:13:41.239 --> 02:13:44.239 idea of taking those in assigning them to the to 2159 02:13:44.359 --> 02:13:46.319 the deck ends. I think that's that's brilliant. 2160 02:13:48.399 --> 02:13:51.840 Well, yeah, and what I wanted to mention one other thing. 2161 02:13:51.840 --> 02:13:54.479 I also like that you assign kedder to the ace 2162 02:13:54.960 --> 02:13:59.119 because oftentimes you see the crown appearing there with the suit, 2163 02:13:59.560 --> 02:14:02.920 but also a yode or a hand kind of gifting 2164 02:14:03.000 --> 02:14:05.359 out gift giving. 2165 02:14:05.279 --> 02:14:08.439 The element as well, like in a boon kind of way. 2166 02:14:08.960 --> 02:14:10.159 So I think that's very fitting. 2167 02:14:10.399 --> 02:14:16.039 Thank you guys both. I appreciate that. I think arrows 2168 02:14:16.119 --> 02:14:20.439 Up had an interesting questions here. Why did Porphyry go 2169 02:14:20.600 --> 02:14:24.520 against whole sign houses? And what do we think about that? 2170 02:14:24.880 --> 02:14:30.279 So whole sign houses, in case you don't know, it's 2171 02:14:30.399 --> 02:14:34.560 the house system, so domains of terrestrial action. It's like, 2172 02:14:35.319 --> 02:14:39.000 you know, one house might be your body, your physique, 2173 02:14:39.199 --> 02:14:42.439 your physique, et cetera. The second house would be like 2174 02:14:42.520 --> 02:14:45.439 your belongings, your movable goods. The third house would be 2175 02:14:45.520 --> 02:14:48.279 like siblings and short trips, et cetera, all the way 2176 02:14:48.279 --> 02:14:51.560 around the wheel. The houses are the domains of life 2177 02:14:51.800 --> 02:14:59.720 in which the zodiacally conditioned planetary sort of essences play out. 2178 02:15:00.960 --> 02:15:06.439 So she's asking about why did Porfyry go against whole 2179 02:15:06.560 --> 02:15:10.479 signs because there are the first quadrant house system was 2180 02:15:10.600 --> 02:15:15.640 Porphyry houses. So whole signs meant that the signs shared 2181 02:15:15.840 --> 02:15:19.520 cusps with the houses. That the that the cusps of 2182 02:15:19.680 --> 02:15:24.479 the signs were the same as the cusps of the houses. 2183 02:15:25.079 --> 02:15:27.399 So that's a lot of people say that's the first 2184 02:15:27.479 --> 02:15:31.079 house system, that's the old Hellenistic house system. Some people 2185 02:15:31.159 --> 02:15:35.119 have argued that point, like I forget her name right now, 2186 02:15:35.600 --> 02:15:41.479 Hodges Hedges, I forget her name, but uh, but Porphyry 2187 02:15:41.520 --> 02:15:46.079 houses uses the angles, the ascendant, descendant axis, and the 2188 02:15:46.279 --> 02:15:49.119 mcic axis. I know this is technical stuff, but I'm 2189 02:15:49.159 --> 02:15:53.399 just trying to answer her question. So and then Porfyry 2190 02:15:53.479 --> 02:16:01.239 equally divided the angles. He trisected them. So I think 2191 02:16:01.319 --> 02:16:08.199 he went against that because unless you have angular houses, 2192 02:16:11.520 --> 02:16:13.920 quadrant houses is what they call them when they're not 2193 02:16:14.159 --> 02:16:18.000 whole sign Unless you have quadrant houses, that recognize the 2194 02:16:18.079 --> 02:16:22.279 angles as cusps, then you have no micro macro because 2195 02:16:22.439 --> 02:16:25.640 the micro is the is how that's projected on the 2196 02:16:25.680 --> 02:16:29.640 sphere of the earth. So I think it's that's why 2197 02:16:30.000 --> 02:16:32.479 a number of years ago I switched from whole sign 2198 02:16:32.639 --> 02:16:37.719 to Portfyry Houses because I like to have the projection 2199 02:16:37.840 --> 02:16:40.120 of the angles on the earth. I think it finishes 2200 02:16:40.200 --> 02:16:43.879 the picture actually, instead of just using whole sign where 2201 02:16:43.920 --> 02:16:46.000 it's like kind of loosey goosey. 2202 02:16:46.360 --> 02:16:46.520 Right. 2203 02:16:47.360 --> 02:16:53.159 But there's Deborah Holding, That's who made an argument about this. 2204 02:16:53.280 --> 02:16:57.120 I would read Deborah Holding's Houses and Mansions in the 2205 02:16:57.159 --> 02:16:59.920 Sky or something that's called Houses and the Castles and 2206 02:17:00.079 --> 02:17:03.040 the Sky or something like that. It's her house system book. 2207 02:17:03.120 --> 02:17:05.719 But if you're interested in that, Debra Holding with a 2208 02:17:05.879 --> 02:17:11.159 U H O U L D I n G. And 2209 02:17:11.280 --> 02:17:15.040 that's the only question I see remaining in here. 2210 02:17:15.239 --> 02:17:16.120 So thank you. 2211 02:17:16.319 --> 02:17:20.600 That was awesome. Appreciate you answering that, Jamie. Yeah, uh 2212 02:17:21.319 --> 02:17:23.280 all right, yeah, I think we'll wrap it up. Help 2213 02:17:23.360 --> 02:17:25.680 you guys hostage looking enough. No, that was an amazing 2214 02:17:25.760 --> 02:17:30.200 and amazing discussion. I really appreciate it you. I think 2215 02:17:30.239 --> 02:17:32.280 you really helped also, like for some of my audience, 2216 02:17:32.639 --> 02:17:35.280 people listening who don't know how detailed this stuff is. 2217 02:17:35.319 --> 02:17:38.079 I just think you really helped them realize, like, this 2218 02:17:38.159 --> 02:17:41.040 stuff isn't just spinning around with a crystal on your hand, 2219 02:17:41.040 --> 02:17:42.280 throwing levender over your shoulder. 2220 02:17:42.879 --> 02:17:43.040 You know. 2221 02:17:43.040 --> 02:17:44.200 It was a little bit more too that. 2222 02:17:45.120 --> 02:17:45.680 So I do that. 2223 02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:52.000 Yeah, I do that the shadow, but uh, you know, 2224 02:17:52.120 --> 02:17:53.799 I really appreciate it was a lot of stuff in 2225 02:17:53.840 --> 02:17:55.680 that that was probably a complete different language to a 2226 02:17:55.719 --> 02:17:58.200 lot of people listening on an audio Open the Trumps. 2227 02:18:00.120 --> 02:18:02.639 But yeah, before we wrap it up, people that are 2228 02:18:02.680 --> 02:18:05.200 remaining headless, would you like to let everybody know what's 2229 02:18:05.239 --> 02:18:06.559 up with you? And when they can find you're gonna 2230 02:18:06.559 --> 02:18:07.559 have to immute yourself. 2231 02:18:07.879 --> 02:18:10.159 So there we go preemptively. 2232 02:18:10.239 --> 02:18:12.399 Yeahy, so yeah, you can find me at the Headless 2233 02:18:12.440 --> 02:18:16.920 Giant on x and on YouTube and on Rumble now, 2234 02:18:17.079 --> 02:18:18.040 so check me out there. 2235 02:18:18.159 --> 02:18:20.520 Thank you, well, yeah, thank you very much. In the 2236 02:18:20.600 --> 02:18:22.280 bridge going on, sir. 2237 02:18:23.239 --> 02:18:25.639 It's always a pleasure. Thank you guys so much for 2238 02:18:25.840 --> 02:18:28.520 joining us. You're being very generous with your time, and 2239 02:18:30.159 --> 02:18:32.639 I took a lot of notes. I do appreciate it. 2240 02:18:32.760 --> 02:18:38.680 Thank you, Thank you, Rich and Jin the Ninja, thank 2241 02:18:38.719 --> 02:18:39.479 you so much, boss. 2242 02:18:39.559 --> 02:18:42.639 And I was like, really huge thank you to Jamie, 2243 02:18:42.719 --> 02:18:46.000 and of course it's always a huge honor to speak 2244 02:18:46.000 --> 02:18:47.799 to both of you, and I really appreciate it that 2245 02:18:47.840 --> 02:18:50.479 you feel my questions. It comes from a place of 2246 02:18:50.680 --> 02:18:54.959 unknowing of the other the Western traditions, and so I 2247 02:18:55.680 --> 02:19:00.680 may sometimes misarticulated, but I am just looking for comparables 2248 02:19:00.799 --> 02:19:03.040 or like you know, parallels currents. 2249 02:19:03.120 --> 02:19:04.879 So thank you both so much. I appreciate that. 2250 02:19:06.159 --> 02:19:10.760 Also shout out to Matt of course, Matt Murra, Joshua 2251 02:19:10.879 --> 02:19:11.239 the Branch. 2252 02:19:11.280 --> 02:19:12.799 You did great. I was so proud of you. I 2253 02:19:12.879 --> 02:19:14.200 was like, oh, he's really been studying. 2254 02:19:14.680 --> 02:19:19.159 And of course my co host for Threshold Saints Solar 2255 02:19:19.280 --> 02:19:22.360 and also the Grey Lodge and yeah, you can just 2256 02:19:22.399 --> 02:19:24.840 find me a Threshold Saints just dropped an episode with 2257 02:19:24.959 --> 02:19:30.879 Greg k Theology Theologia Poetica, so episode eighty one and 2258 02:19:31.600 --> 02:19:33.879 Spotify and Apple, thank you guys so much, appreciate it. 2259 02:19:34.079 --> 02:19:34.760 Amazing honor. 2260 02:19:35.600 --> 02:19:37.440 Nice, thank you for coming on and I really appreciate it. 2261 02:19:38.200 --> 02:19:40.559 And Jamie, please let everybody know what they can find 2262 02:19:40.600 --> 02:19:41.959 all your stuff, whatever you like. 2263 02:19:42.040 --> 02:19:46.600 To promote Jamie Paul Lamb at Jamie Paul Lamb dot com. 2264 02:19:46.920 --> 02:19:49.280 Here I can put it in the chat, but. 2265 02:19:50.920 --> 02:19:53.760 Well no I can't in the private chat. 2266 02:19:53.840 --> 02:19:57.079 I can post it in j A I M A 2267 02:19:57.239 --> 02:19:59.520 P A U L l A m B dot com 2268 02:20:00.079 --> 02:20:03.360 and uh, I do astrology. I have some books and 2269 02:20:04.280 --> 02:20:08.600 and hit me up for Oh. One thing I did 2270 02:20:08.680 --> 02:20:11.040 want to bring up is I have a service that 2271 02:20:11.280 --> 02:20:15.280 uh that I think is under you. Oh no, that's wrong, 2272 02:20:15.840 --> 02:20:22.079 he ai me j A, I emmy like it's like himI. 2273 02:20:24.920 --> 02:20:27.719 But I have a service where I do the sound 2274 02:20:27.879 --> 02:20:34.840 of your natal chart in a harmonium improvisation like a 2275 02:20:34.959 --> 02:20:37.479 five minute MP three. I make a five minute MP 2276 02:20:37.600 --> 02:20:40.159 three of the sound of your natal chart played on 2277 02:20:40.239 --> 02:20:43.879 a on a Bellows operated read organ. It's really kind 2278 02:20:43.920 --> 02:20:46.760 of a cool service that I'm surprised more people don't 2279 02:20:46.840 --> 02:20:51.159 hit me up about that. It's you hear like through 2280 02:20:51.239 --> 02:20:55.680 and I use medieval and Renaissance and some antique correspondences 2281 02:20:55.799 --> 02:21:02.200 to uh two yeah nder that you know, like like 2282 02:21:02.520 --> 02:21:06.959 the church modes and the planets to notes and the 2283 02:21:07.600 --> 02:21:12.479 the the signs and stuff like that. So anyway, thanks 2284 02:21:12.559 --> 02:21:17.440 so much for having me on Nick and head listen 2285 02:21:17.520 --> 02:21:21.200 everybody and Chin and the branch and ike. Always a 2286 02:21:21.239 --> 02:21:23.120 pleasure to see you and talk to you, and thanks 2287 02:21:23.159 --> 02:21:24.239 for everybody who tuned in. 2288 02:21:24.959 --> 02:21:27.040 Oh no, thank you, so I really appreciate you coming 2289 02:21:27.079 --> 02:21:27.719 on to token with that. 2290 02:21:27.840 --> 02:21:28.120 So good. 2291 02:21:28.959 --> 02:21:31.440 And I Ike, please let everybody know what's over with 2292 02:21:31.479 --> 02:21:33.000 you where they can fight all your basic work. 2293 02:21:34.120 --> 02:21:36.920 Sure, Ike Baker dot com I K E B A 2294 02:21:37.239 --> 02:21:42.399 K E R. You've got everything up there, from my 2295 02:21:42.879 --> 02:21:47.959 podcast episodes to some of the YouTube documentary style presentations 2296 02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:51.559 that I put up. Also, when you go to my page, 2297 02:21:51.719 --> 02:21:54.280 you can you can sign up for my I do 2298 02:21:54.440 --> 02:21:59.399 a newsletter every week every Thursday, more or less every Thursday. 2299 02:21:59.399 --> 02:22:02.719 It's completely free. If you want, you just go and 2300 02:22:02.799 --> 02:22:04.959 sign up for it. Throw your email in the uh 2301 02:22:06.000 --> 02:22:09.280 in in the subscription box there. Also on the right 2302 02:22:09.600 --> 02:22:13.040 the bottom right hand corner of my sort of like 2303 02:22:13.120 --> 02:22:16.120 I guess homepage. Uh, there's a little chat widget. Then 2304 02:22:16.159 --> 02:22:20.000 anything you write in there will come directly to my inbox. Again, 2305 02:22:20.159 --> 02:22:23.319 you know, I always say, please be nice. Now Jamie's 2306 02:22:23.360 --> 02:22:26.639 gonna be sending men me send me weird questions like 2307 02:22:26.760 --> 02:22:29.520 three in the morning. I shouldn't I should have waited 2308 02:22:29.600 --> 02:22:34.040 until he left. But uh yeah, So if you're interested 2309 02:22:34.239 --> 02:22:39.200 in in uh, I give private instruction and all sorts 2310 02:22:39.239 --> 02:22:46.159 of things uh you know, magic, alchemy, philosophy, pachology. I'm 2311 02:22:46.200 --> 02:22:51.639 a guardian of the Anus and I do group courses too. 2312 02:22:51.799 --> 02:22:54.840 Right now, I've got one called Music as Magic. We're 2313 02:22:54.959 --> 02:22:58.280 like dead Center in the middle of it. Uh so, 2314 02:22:58.559 --> 02:23:01.520 but you can still join if you want to sign up. 2315 02:23:01.639 --> 02:23:05.000 I did. My last class was called Hermetic Kabala for 2316 02:23:05.200 --> 02:23:08.559 practitioners and initiates, and the next one is going to 2317 02:23:08.600 --> 02:23:12.239 be starting in March. It's actually it's called Techniques of 2318 02:23:12.280 --> 02:23:15.399 Greco Egyptian Theorgy. So I'm taking all the stuff that 2319 02:23:15.440 --> 02:23:17.559 I did in Egypt a couple of months ago with 2320 02:23:17.680 --> 02:23:21.399 a group of twenty sort of participants and bringing that 2321 02:23:21.520 --> 02:23:24.559 practical and theoretical stuff. For anybody that's interested, just hit 2322 02:23:24.639 --> 02:23:27.799 me up on my web page. You guys are awesome. 2323 02:23:28.200 --> 02:23:30.680 Thanks for having us on. Thanks for inviting me on too. 2324 02:23:30.959 --> 02:23:33.200 I really it was a real treat to be able 2325 02:23:33.280 --> 02:23:36.040 to sit and talk with you guys, and Jamie of course, 2326 02:23:38.680 --> 02:23:41.159 it just hats off man. You are a brilliant dude, 2327 02:23:41.280 --> 02:23:41.840 and I love you. 2328 02:23:42.600 --> 02:23:46.159 Love you likewise, no, thank both of youse man. And 2329 02:23:46.239 --> 02:23:48.719 that was some really great stuff. Like I said before, 2330 02:23:48.760 --> 02:23:50.680 there was a lot of stuff talked about on here 2331 02:23:50.760 --> 02:23:53.319 that yeah, a lot of I'm sure I went over 2332 02:23:53.319 --> 02:23:55.479 a lot of people's heads, but I think it really 2333 02:23:55.520 --> 02:23:58.879 helped prove a point, like, you know what this shit 2334 02:23:59.000 --> 02:24:01.280 is kind of you know, it's not It's not as 2335 02:24:01.440 --> 02:24:04.120 easy or simple as people think it is. I don't 2336 02:24:04.120 --> 02:24:05.680 think you can be a fucking idiot if you know 2337 02:24:05.719 --> 02:24:09.440 what you're doing, you know. So again, thank you, gentlemen. 2338 02:24:09.559 --> 02:24:12.559 I really appreciate it. Everybody in the chat. That's what's up. 2339 02:24:12.639 --> 02:24:15.079 We got Freda rc Is in there. We got him 2340 02:24:15.120 --> 02:24:18.280 coming on next Wednesday as well. We got Giorgina Rose 2341 02:24:18.319 --> 02:24:20.000 coming on at six o'clock and then he got him 2342 02:24:20.040 --> 02:24:23.360 coming on at nine o'clock for Nochian Magic. So Wednesday's 2343 02:24:23.360 --> 02:24:26.479 gonna be popping off next week. Uh yeah, So if 2344 02:24:26.479 --> 02:24:28.200 you guys are listening, take a look out for that. 2345 02:24:28.799 --> 02:24:30.719 And again, everybody in the chat, there's a lot of 2346 02:24:30.760 --> 02:24:33.200 people in there. Arrows, thank you for all the questions. 2347 02:24:33.280 --> 02:24:34.719 It was like you were on the show anyway. I mean, 2348 02:24:34.760 --> 02:24:36.040 she was one of the members. It was like she 2349 02:24:36.159 --> 02:24:40.120 was here, but not so thanks. Uh yeah, and until 2350 02:24:40.120 --> 02:24:42.399 the next one, everybody be well Later