WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads?

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<v Speaker 2>Easy?

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<v Speaker 1>Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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<v Speaker 1>get access to a private RSS feed where all the

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<v Speaker 1>shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will get

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<v Speaker 1>you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign

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<v Speaker 1>up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey

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<v Speaker 1>guess what, it's dot net rocks all over again. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Franklin, an amateur camp here for your geeking out

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, all that pleasure. If you're dot NetRocks pleasure,

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you're having a good week.

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<v Speaker 2>We are.

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<v Speaker 1>We're getting ready to head to Orlando for dev Intersection,

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<v Speaker 1>which should be going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, this show will come out, This show will go,

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<v Speaker 2>Will we go? Will be on when we're in Orlando.

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<v Speaker 1>Right right now, we're probably up on the stage giving

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<v Speaker 1>prizes away.

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<v Speaker 2>Or doing something silly, which we are prone to doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, to do well. We've got a lot of interest

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<v Speaker 1>stuff to get through. So let's talk about nineteen seventy one.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the all right you begin friend, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>a big year. It's a big year. So let's see.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to talk about some of the cultural stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like the rock bands formed in nineteen seventy one include

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<v Speaker 1>The Eagles, Queen fog Hat, New York Dolls, and Roxy Music.

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<v Speaker 1>Radio and TV advertisements for cigarettes were banned in the USA.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>At the beginning of that, Rolls Royce went bankrupt again. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the first ever email.

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<v Speaker 2>Was sent up. I got a whole piece on that

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<v Speaker 2>quirty IOP or something like that or test one two three,

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't remember.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The Nastac made its debut on Wall Street. Evil

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<v Speaker 1>Knievel set a world record. I can't remember if he

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<v Speaker 1>actually crashed or not, but he probably did. That was

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<v Speaker 1>his stick. Hey watch this hold my beer boom set

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<v Speaker 1>a record, but I broke every bone in my body.

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<v Speaker 1>Ed Sullivan Show aired its last episode.

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<v Speaker 2>End of an era.

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<v Speaker 1>The New York Times started publishing The Pentagon Papers.

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<v Speaker 2>Jim Morrison died. Yeah. Yeah, Tormented soul, Tormented soul. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Four countries gained independence Bangladesh, Baja Rain, Qatar, and the

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<v Speaker 1>United Arab Emirates. China was admitted the General Assembly at

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<v Speaker 1>the United Nations. M you're going to talk about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's see. Oh, Charles Manson and three of his followers

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<v Speaker 1>were convicted. Starbucks opened their first store. Yeah, I mean

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<v Speaker 1>became president of Uganda. Well, Disney World opened in Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's so many more, but I'm going to pass

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<v Speaker 1>the baton over to you, my friend. What happened in

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<v Speaker 1>science and space? Let's do space First.

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<v Speaker 2>Fourteen and PAULA fifteen are both in nineteen seventy one,

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<v Speaker 2>and paul Of fourteen was the last of the original missions.

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<v Speaker 2>That's Alan Shepard was the commander on it. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>first American into space on Mercury. And of course he

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<v Speaker 2>was a big golfer, so he brought a golf club

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<v Speaker 2>and whacked a ball on the Moon. That ball has

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<v Speaker 2>not been found. That kind of went far. It's been somewhere,

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<v Speaker 2>went somewhere. PAULA fifteen was the first of the extended missions,

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<v Speaker 2>so doubling the time on the Moon, plus when they

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<v Speaker 2>introduced the rover so they were able to travel a

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<v Speaker 2>lot farther on the Soviet side. Having lost the race

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<v Speaker 2>to the Moon, they began on space stations and in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy one lifted off with Salute one, only designed

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<v Speaker 2>to function for six months, so it went up in

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<v Speaker 2>April was deorbity in October. There were only two missions

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<v Speaker 2>to it, so used ten soft docked but couldn't hard dock,

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<v Speaker 2>so ultimately, after a few hours they had to give

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<v Speaker 2>up and re enter, which unforture and the Soyu's eleven

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<v Speaker 2>successfully docked and the crew spent twenty three days on

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<v Speaker 2>the mission doing a bunch of experiments, and unfortunately on

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<v Speaker 2>re entry the capsule depressurized and all three were assixiated,

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<v Speaker 2>the first and only time that we actually had a

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<v Speaker 2>crew die above the Carmen line versus been other astronauts

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<v Speaker 2>lost at other times, but Georgie de belfe Ski, Vladislav Volkov,

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<v Speaker 2>and Victor Patsayev were found dead in the capsule after

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<v Speaker 2>re entry. But I would say that the Salute one

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<v Speaker 2>is the core designed for every space station going forward,

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<v Speaker 2>with the exception of Skylab the Chinese the space station

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<v Speaker 2>is derived from Salute. All the salutes obviously ends and

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<v Speaker 2>mirror and this Vezda module on the ISS. The core,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the core control module for the International Space

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<v Speaker 2>Station also derived from SCOT from Salute. On the computing side,

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<v Speaker 2>Big Year this is the year that Intel ships the

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<v Speaker 2>four thousand and four, the first CPU. It's an eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>pin DIP twenty three hundred transistors on board. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>four bit processor at one hundred and fifty killoer hurtz.

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<v Speaker 2>It'll go on to be in a bunch of calculators,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course they'll go on to go onto the

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<v Speaker 2>eight thousand series and everything you're using right now. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The floppy disc is first developed at IBM by a

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<v Speaker 2>guy named Alan Shugart. Although limittedly he led the project.

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<v Speaker 2>He recognized that name if you remember the Shoeguart drive.

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<v Speaker 2>That original floppy disk is an eight inch format. It's

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<v Speaker 2>called the IBM twenty three FD and it is read

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<v Speaker 2>only oh eighty K of data. There's a separate hardware

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<v Speaker 2>to actually write on the disc. And these were meant

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<v Speaker 2>for updates to the System three seventy, So you would

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<v Speaker 2>get a twenty three FD as part of your System

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<v Speaker 2>three seventy and do updates with eight inch discs. There'll

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<v Speaker 2>be later versions that are rewrite.

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<v Speaker 1>I remember looking through the Radio Shack catalog when I

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<v Speaker 1>was a kid, and there were computers that took the

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<v Speaker 1>eight inch floppies of the model too, took the eight

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<v Speaker 1>inge drive, yeah, and I thought that was like the stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's pretty cool. I just so wanted a

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<v Speaker 1>computer when I was a kid, for sure. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>until I was almost in high school that my father

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<v Speaker 1>bought one.

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<v Speaker 2>But they only got better with time.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's another story, another story to interrupt. When I was eleven,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy eight, there was a huge blizzard in New England,

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<v Speaker 1>Blizzard of seventy eight. We got like four or five

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<v Speaker 1>feet of snow and so there wasn't any school that day,

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<v Speaker 1>and my friends and my brother and I we decided

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<v Speaker 1>to build not just a snowman, but we built a

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<v Speaker 1>space station and called it Skylab.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't that cool? Yeah? I was like, why Skylab? It

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<v Speaker 1>had little shoots and stuff for snowballs running down it

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<v Speaker 1>and it was one of the happiest days of my

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<v Speaker 1>life in school, probably because there was no.

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<v Speaker 2>School, but snow days are always good days without a day. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>last things In nineteen seventy one, the Arpanet stuff so

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<v Speaker 2>went live the year before and now we're starting to

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<v Speaker 2>build products on it. So Ray Tomlinson sends the very

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<v Speaker 2>first email. This guy's from MIT, but he was working

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<v Speaker 2>for BBN by them, which is both Barnic and Newman.

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<v Speaker 2>Most people have a dot heard of BBM, but they

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<v Speaker 2>were essential to the creation of the Internet. That very

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<v Speaker 2>first email has a lot of the stuff you already

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<v Speaker 2>recognize today. Uses the app notation for name and domain.

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<v Speaker 2>It has to send her a subject, date, a body.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an argument Tomlinson doesn't have the email anymore, so

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<v Speaker 2>they asked him, well, what was in it? He says,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know test one, two three or the Cordy

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<v Speaker 2>row like, I don't know something like that. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a test email. Yeah, but over on the Berkeley side,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's east coast. On the West coast side, Mary

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<v Speaker 2>Turnoff of Berkeley, who works for the Office Emergency Preparedness,

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<v Speaker 2>builds a system called the Emergency Management Information System and

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<v Speaker 2>Reference index are IMASARI, which is real time Chat wow,

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<v Speaker 2>and he has ten offices communicating in real time via

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy one.

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<v Speaker 1>The first time I said, I saw that at a

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<v Speaker 1>friend's house who is connected over a modem to somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>I was just amazed. It's stunning, right, So it's stunning,

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<v Speaker 1>like that's somebody typing in real time. Yeah, on the

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<v Speaker 1>other side of the world, potentially.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I have a question, Richard.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, hey, Egil, speak up.

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<v Speaker 3>Gil yeah, sorry, I'm really holding my breath yet. But no, like,

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<v Speaker 3>did they actually have the at sign back when the

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<v Speaker 3>first email was sent out?

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<v Speaker 2>Apparently? Yeah, they said the acts of what was included

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<v Speaker 2>in the original email structure. So you know, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it's nineteen seventy one, so ASKI exists. It's just a

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<v Speaker 2>question of this is mostly mainframe computers at this point,

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<v Speaker 2>where there using ASCI, where they using embedict, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of IBM. Then, Yeah, so it could have been.

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<v Speaker 3>But it probably wasn't printed on the keyboard, I guess.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to get your head around what

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<v Speaker 2>the hardware looked like back then. But then this was

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<v Speaker 2>mostly universities and military labs on arpedet. Right, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>inner yet, so they're all largely mainframe machines, PDPs and ibms.

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<v Speaker 2>Very cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that's your list, Richard, that's my list. Well

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<v Speaker 1>in that case, it's time for better no of framework.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome rold of music. Man, what do you happen?

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<v Speaker 1>So, as you know, it's my moo to go looking

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<v Speaker 1>for things that are training on GitHub and I found

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<v Speaker 1>this Hardened Windows Security the new threat to malware. Hardened

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<v Speaker 1>Windows Safely securely only with official Microsoft methods, So this

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<v Speaker 1>is essentially training and it's a repository that the features

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<v Speaker 1>have already been implemented by Microsoft and Windows to fine

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<v Speaker 1>tune it towards the highest security and locked down state

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<v Speaker 1>without relying on any third party component or dependency, using

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<v Speaker 1>well documented, supported, recommended, and official methods. So I think

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<v Speaker 1>this is really cool because one of the big problems

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<v Speaker 1>in security, as you guys know, is the chain. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the supply chain, what dependency or are you using and

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<v Speaker 1>what dependencies are they relying on, And if you draw

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<v Speaker 1>graphs sometimes you can see the spokes go out in

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<v Speaker 1>millions of directions and it's impossible to wrap your mind around.

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<v Speaker 1>So I really like this for the fact that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you're not relying on some GitHub repo where somebody could

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<v Speaker 1>come and do a pull request that isn't looked at

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<v Speaker 1>carefully and it's got some malware in it, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's a reality today. So yeah, I'm very much in

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<v Speaker 1>favor of doing what's on the box. You know, what

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<v Speaker 1>can I do that's right here.

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<v Speaker 2>So and to be clear, this is not an app

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<v Speaker 2>in GitHub that you compile or anything. This is just

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<v Speaker 2>a list of information and some scripts Power Show to guidance. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>just guidance to implement features that already exist in Windows

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<v Speaker 2>or perhaps have Microsoft based tools in some cases, to

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<v Speaker 2>just turn up the security level on your machine. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Microsoft tends to default to everything works, it's easy to use, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and then highly secure.

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<v Speaker 1>As we say on our show, security is the enemy

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<v Speaker 1>of convenience and vice versa. And so if it's very convenient,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact of the matter is, it's probably less secure

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<v Speaker 1>than you wanted to. But there are ways to to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, get get as close as you can to

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<v Speaker 1>convenient and be secure at the same time. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's you know, it's a guidance like this that

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<v Speaker 1>helps us with it. But you know, knowing what we know, Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>when you come across people in your daily life who

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<v Speaker 1>are asking you, you know, I got this text message

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<v Speaker 1>or I got this email, what is that? And you

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<v Speaker 1>know your answer is ignoring it and you're rolling your eyes.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like most people out there are so vulnerable and

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<v Speaker 1>susceptible to phishing attacks and yeah, dude, you don't know

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<v Speaker 1>where to start.

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<v Speaker 2>It's worse than that. A friend of mine shows me

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<v Speaker 2>as one of my neighbors shows me the out box

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<v Speaker 2>on the email on his iPhone and it's full of

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<v Speaker 2>spam sent through his account, and I'm like, dude, you

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<v Speaker 2>need to change a password. He's like, oh, no, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't do that. Yeah. Like, why I'm not changing my password.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not hurting me. I'm like, you're sending spam mail.

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<v Speaker 3>Your reputation take a hits.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Nope, not changing the password. Step too far, not

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<v Speaker 2>a thing. Not going to do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let me introduce you to a password manager, my friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Please.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, anyway, that's what I got. Richard, who's talking.

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<v Speaker 2>To us, grabbed a comment off of the show eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty eight when we did with one Eagle Hints and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe you've heard of him talking a little bit about

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<v Speaker 2>the updates around b unit. This is from twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and our friend Joe Finney had a comment on the

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<v Speaker 2>show which I thought was very appropriate. He said, I

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<v Speaker 2>really appreciated how Eagle made the distinction between different kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of open source projects. I think in addition to having

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<v Speaker 2>a licensed file in the REPO, maybe projects should have

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<v Speaker 2>a goals file which states what the owners of the

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<v Speaker 2>project would like to see it become. There's a little

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<v Speaker 2>one off experiment, but a complete end user application looking

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<v Speaker 2>to be improved but not really built upon. Is the

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<v Speaker 2>project more of a framework supported by a business to

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<v Speaker 2>help with integrations and so on? Like, what's the intent?

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<v Speaker 2>I love it that would help consumers of the project

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<v Speaker 2>know what to expect when opening issues. Prs are looking

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<v Speaker 2>for support. As always, Thanks for the great show. It's

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<v Speaker 2>all refreshing to hear smart people discussing hard problems.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, even if the answer is how should we know?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? And we just had Joe on the show too, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it was the previous week, so it's only coincidental that

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<v Speaker 2>I happened to find a comment from them from eagles

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<v Speaker 2>last show, which I thought was very relevant. So Joe,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for your comment in a copy

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<v Speaker 2>of music. Co Buy is on its way to you,

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<v Speaker 2>and ifew'd like a copy of music, go buy right

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<v Speaker 2>a comment on the website at don arogs dot com

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<v Speaker 2>or on the facebooks. We could publish every show there

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<v Speaker 2>and if you come there and everything on the show,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll send you a copy of music to Coba.

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<v Speaker 1>Music code by still going Strong and twenty two tracks.

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<v Speaker 1>You can go to music too coode by dot net

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<v Speaker 1>to purchase the collection in MP three wave or FLACK format.

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<v Speaker 1>Go for it Flack. Okay, well, let's bring back Egil Hanson.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, he is the author and inventor of b

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<v Speaker 1>unit for testing Blazer apps and components. So let me

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<v Speaker 1>read his official bio.

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<v Speaker 2>Egil is a.

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<v Speaker 1>Dane chilling in Iceland. He's a developer at Delegate and

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<v Speaker 1>a Microsoft MVP. He chats globally at conferences about nifty

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<v Speaker 1>developer stuff and is all about that clean maintainable code.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that song. I'm all about that clean maintainable code.

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<v Speaker 1>That clean maintainable code. He's the creator behind b unit,

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<v Speaker 1>as I said, for Blazer tests and angle sharp diffing

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<v Speaker 1>think spot the HTML difference in c sharp. Though he's

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<v Speaker 1>danced too many tech tunes, Eagle's current jam is everything

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<v Speaker 1>dot net and cloud. Check out his repos at GitHub

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<v Speaker 1>dot com slash Egle. Yes, this bio was written by

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<v Speaker 1>chat GBT.

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<v Speaker 3>And it was written what was it three years ago?

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<v Speaker 3>Last time I visited you too?

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah? Yeah? Nice? Uh?

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<v Speaker 3>Still still more today? Yeah? Well, in which you mentioned

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<v Speaker 3>b unit, I have to give a shout out to

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<v Speaker 3>my co maintainer Steve and Giselle who's really pulling a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the weight around that. These days, we are

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<v Speaker 3>working heavily on a V two of that co mollis

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<v Speaker 3>just simplified a PI is you remove some of the

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<v Speaker 3>craft all of that, and especially removing the support for

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<v Speaker 3>the older target frameworks that we have. We have we're

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<v Speaker 3>still support back to free one dot net core days,

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<v Speaker 3>so it will be nice to to clean that out

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<v Speaker 3>a bit. But so try not to do braking changes.

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<v Speaker 3>So we would have to do a V two to

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<v Speaker 3>actually do that. So so that that will happen hopefully

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<v Speaker 3>the end of this year.

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<v Speaker 2>Very good. Nice, we'll need to do another show. Then

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<v Speaker 2>we talked about the new version.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, that would be good to do.

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<v Speaker 1>So what are you thinking about these days?

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<v Speaker 2>So?

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<v Speaker 3>I well, I, as my bio probably indicates, I used

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<v Speaker 3>to be sort of the B unit guy and and

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<v Speaker 3>there are a lot also conference talks on that, and

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<v Speaker 3>I branched out a bit, so now I'm talking more

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<v Speaker 3>about testing in general and have been double clicking a

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<v Speaker 3>lot on what it means to write valuable tests. So

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<v Speaker 3>so so so that that that's something you know that

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<v Speaker 3>I'm really passionate about making sure that.

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<v Speaker 1>That indicates that there are mostly not valuable tests out there.

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<v Speaker 1>Well exactly, so implies.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, no, not necessarily, not necessarily, But I think I've

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<v Speaker 3>seen and I've certainly been guilty about myself at certain

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<v Speaker 3>cyy st tendency too to not think, not not be

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<v Speaker 3>explicit about what the what kind of test you write.

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<v Speaker 3>So so some some types of tests have different benefits

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<v Speaker 3>from others, and there's no silver bullet, so so be

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<v Speaker 3>you know, be open to new ways of writing tests

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<v Speaker 3>or write new styles of tests. So, I think the

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<v Speaker 3>classic thing you really want from the test we is

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<v Speaker 3>you bought the confidence to be able to say, well,

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<v Speaker 3>all my tests passed, so I haven't made a mistake,

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<v Speaker 3>and we can go straight to production or at least

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<v Speaker 3>through a c c D pipeline where the quality gauge

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<v Speaker 3>is the test among other things, and if all are green,

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<v Speaker 3>well then you know it's it's good. And and for me,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's about having tests that really gives you the

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's that's four pillars that I think that

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<v Speaker 3>we're quite elegantly described in a book called I Think

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<v Speaker 3>Unit Testing Principal Patterns and Practices by Vladimir Kolikov, which

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<v Speaker 3>I often reference is his way of testing he describes

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<v Speaker 3>in that book is very much aligned with how I

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<v Speaker 3>do it. But he has four pillars sort of that

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<v Speaker 3>indicates if you have a valuable test suite, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>if you have good protection against regression, if you have

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<v Speaker 3>resistance to refactoring, if you have fast feedback, and your

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<v Speaker 3>tests are maintainable. So this is the top exactly. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>so if we take the three first ones, right, protection

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<v Speaker 3>against regressions, you get a lot of that if you

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<v Speaker 3>write more into interests, because regressions is when something breaks

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<v Speaker 3>that you didn't intend to break, or when you make

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<v Speaker 3>a change. Well yeah, well so unintentional change is probably

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<v Speaker 3>what I would call it. Right, And if you do

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<v Speaker 3>into interesting, you're touching on your nukelet package. You're touching

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<v Speaker 3>on all your external dependencies as well as your business logic. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>so if you have good into Interests, you can also

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<v Speaker 3>just upgrade to the data versions of all your external

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<v Speaker 3>packages that you depend on on use and if your

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<v Speaker 3>tests still go through, well you have probably a good way,

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<v Speaker 3>Like it's probably safe to deploy, right, It's probably okay

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<v Speaker 3>or great. But the downside is so the third third

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<v Speaker 3>pillar was fast feedback and obviously, and to insists they

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<v Speaker 3>runt quite a bit slower maintenance. Why is they also

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<v Speaker 3>somewhat harder to maintain because there's usually way more things

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<v Speaker 3>going on, so that does no you know, depending on

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of application you're writing, you can choose to

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<v Speaker 3>either go to integration testing or into interesting or have

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<v Speaker 3>a mix of all of that, and that is usually

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<v Speaker 3>my default is to start start with integration testing. And

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<v Speaker 3>then if I find I have a lot of business

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<v Speaker 3>logic letters annoying hard to test through the public surface

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<v Speaker 3>of my way, if it's API I'm building, or product

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<v Speaker 3>product on app or something like that, well then you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you peel away the outer layers of your application and

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<v Speaker 3>isolate your components are your units on the test, and

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<v Speaker 3>test them in isolation, so you get both fast feedback.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's there's no super bullet here.

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<v Speaker 1>I can think of a few situations in which refactoring

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<v Speaker 1>can throw tests off. Say you have a method that

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<v Speaker 1>takes I don't know, three parameters or something like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and so therefore it's up to the calling code to

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<v Speaker 1>have those parameters from wherever they come from, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>a user or something. And then instead of that you

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<v Speaker 1>decide to you know, make some configuration and the configuration

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<v Speaker 1>has those name value pairs in it now and they're

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<v Speaker 1>not passed in. So you're like, okay, I'll just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>remove these parameters from this method. We're going to assume

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<v Speaker 1>that these two parameters are coming from configuration and blah

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<v Speaker 1>blah blah. So there that'll break a test because oh well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm calling this still with my parameters, and now I

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<v Speaker 1>have to decide whether I should get those values out

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<v Speaker 1>of the configuration before I pass it in or do

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<v Speaker 1>you know that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, so there's a whole bunch of patterns that you

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<v Speaker 3>can lean into that will give you resistance to refacting,

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<v Speaker 3>which was the second pillar, and really resistance to refacturing

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<v Speaker 3>something that is valiable to aim for, independent of whether

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<v Speaker 3>you're doing into interesting or union interesting. So I think

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<v Speaker 3>the first thing is in general, to keep implementation details

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<v Speaker 3>out of your test if you can. And that's sort

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<v Speaker 3>of a high level. So what does that mean, Well,

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<v Speaker 3>implementation detail is well, actually, okay, that's that's actually something

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<v Speaker 3>I sometimes do when I do this. I do this

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<v Speaker 3>presentation around this, so I ask what are implementation details?

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<v Speaker 3>So an example, if you're building I don't know for

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<v Speaker 3>a consumer phasing applications, so not not building a library,

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<v Speaker 3>but you're building something that users will use. Right, if

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<v Speaker 3>you have a database, would you con see that better

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<v Speaker 3>implementation detail or would you say that that is you

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<v Speaker 3>know something that I think the opposite of the implementation

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<v Speaker 3>details is something that is externally observable. It's something that

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<v Speaker 3>you know changes and that you can then have it's

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<v Speaker 3>okay to have in your tests. So would a database

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<v Speaker 3>be an implementation detail in your mind?

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<v Speaker 1>The database itself, the structure of the database.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah. Could you have something of the database,

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<v Speaker 3>could you have access, could you use could you have

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<v Speaker 3>entity framework in your test, for example, to put some

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<v Speaker 3>data into the database before you run the test, or

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<v Speaker 3>could you acquiring the database and see did my changes

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<v Speaker 3>act to get into the database?

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<v Speaker 2>That smells bad to me?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well you would be right. So implementation details of

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<v Speaker 3>things like that like databases and impliptation details in theory

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<v Speaker 3>in your test or your test shouldn't care about what

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<v Speaker 3>database you're using, because your test should focus on business

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<v Speaker 3>value what you're trying to test.

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<v Speaker 1>You're introducing more complexity.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but when another example could be, well, you have

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<v Speaker 3>an app and it sends out emails whenever users do something. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>you could actually take that, you could take a dependency

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<v Speaker 3>on the email setting functionality in your test because it's

421
00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:09.680
<v Speaker 3>externally observable. It's part of the external contract that you

422
00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:12.720
<v Speaker 3>have with the users. So that's a whole host of

423
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.880
<v Speaker 3>things like this where you have to ask yourselves, is

424
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.440
<v Speaker 3>it actually something that viewed from the outside when they're

425
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.039
<v Speaker 3>looking at my application or looking at if you're building

426
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:24.400
<v Speaker 3>a component live or class library, is it something that

427
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:28.279
<v Speaker 3>is external to the library. And if it's. If it is,

428
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.640
<v Speaker 3>then it's typically okay because if you actually go and

429
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.400
<v Speaker 3>change the myth that you talked about before, change the

430
00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.920
<v Speaker 3>parameters you're passed them in a different way, well, you

431
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.079
<v Speaker 3>actually want your test to break right because you have

432
00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:43.319
<v Speaker 3>changed the public observable behavior of the whatever you were building.

433
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:47.000
<v Speaker 3>But if it's if it's just an internal thing, maybe

434
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.319
<v Speaker 3>you took a method or method and split it out,

435
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.039
<v Speaker 3>refractored into an internal class, or you took parts of

436
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:55.119
<v Speaker 3>a class that got too big and refactored it into

437
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.039
<v Speaker 3>a secondary class. Well, in that case, I wouldn't necessarily

438
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.680
<v Speaker 3>create a testsly for that refactor out class. I would

439
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.160
<v Speaker 3>just test it again through the public service. I have

440
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:09.440
<v Speaker 3>of whatever I'm creating, so so so thinking hard about

441
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.440
<v Speaker 3>how to keep implementation details out of test. But it's

442
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 3>also the hardest problem, honestly, incurading good test suite. And

443
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.519
<v Speaker 3>usually when you have to, like if you have whatever

444
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 3>you're testing the class, for example, if it takes a

445
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 3>bunch of parameter as input and all the and you

446
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:31.039
<v Speaker 3>have a whole set of tests, but I actually need

447
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.160
<v Speaker 3>to do the same thing. Do that do that system

448
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.480
<v Speaker 3>montal test up and passing parameters to it. Well, you

449
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:38.559
<v Speaker 3>can refacture that into a small help me method that

450
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.559
<v Speaker 3>syst next to the test, and that instantiates the suster

451
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.720
<v Speaker 3>butter test for you. So when you actually have to

452
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:46.920
<v Speaker 3>change things, you have one place to go. You don't

453
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.119
<v Speaker 3>have to break all the tests.

454
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:49.359
<v Speaker 2>Right.

455
00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:53.680
<v Speaker 3>Or at least when you do break them. I think.

456
00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:59.319
<v Speaker 3>Another thing I have strong feelings about is if you

457
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.680
<v Speaker 3>are using generic marcking framework like EMQ or in substitute

458
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:06.599
<v Speaker 3>in your test. So maybe you decided you have some

459
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.640
<v Speaker 3>business logic and it's maybe talking to an API or

460
00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:11.759
<v Speaker 3>back end, so you don't want to have that part

461
00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:13.400
<v Speaker 3>of your test. You don't want to do intern testing,

462
00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:16.680
<v Speaker 3>and in this scenario. So you have a surface an

463
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:22.279
<v Speaker 3>interface that you put that external communication behind. But if

464
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:28.279
<v Speaker 3>you then use MOQ or in substitute or other marking libraries, well,

465
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.799
<v Speaker 3>the way that you're the code that you are writing

466
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 3>test for is interacting with that external dependency or out

467
00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:38.680
<v Speaker 3>of process dependency, which is typically what you would use

468
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.240
<v Speaker 3>that for. That's an implementation detail most often than not,

469
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.680
<v Speaker 3>especially if it's a database or something that's internal application.

470
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.839
<v Speaker 3>If it's sending an email to an email server, that's

471
00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:49.680
<v Speaker 3>a different story. But in the case where you have

472
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.440
<v Speaker 3>a database or an event top or some other internal

473
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.799
<v Speaker 3>out of process thing you have, if you use a

474
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.880
<v Speaker 3>marking framework, you're likely going to in every test to

475
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.200
<v Speaker 3>have that set up there. You say, well, when this

476
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:03.200
<v Speaker 3>method is called on my interface, I want you to

477
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.200
<v Speaker 3>respond with this, and I want you to do X,

478
00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.759
<v Speaker 3>Y and z, And you might also want to asserte

479
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.079
<v Speaker 3>in your test on the MUG that it received a

480
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.640
<v Speaker 3>certain amount of course with specific input and output. All

481
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:19.400
<v Speaker 3>of that is implementation details. It's implementation details of how

482
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.839
<v Speaker 3>your system under test is using them using the dependency

483
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:28.039
<v Speaker 3>it has. So if you at some point change your

484
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:30.720
<v Speaker 3>logic so that you don't save to the database. Every

485
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:33.519
<v Speaker 3>time it gets a new thing in, it keeps it

486
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 3>around the memory a little bit, and then it's saved

487
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:37.559
<v Speaker 3>maybe to you know, save one. Don't Well, if all

488
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:40.079
<v Speaker 3>your test assume that it's going to save one time

489
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.359
<v Speaker 3>every time it does a thing, now all your tests

490
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.640
<v Speaker 3>are broken, and they shouldn't be breaking because the functionality

491
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.079
<v Speaker 3>is still right, still right. The implementation details have changed,

492
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.119
<v Speaker 3>but not the functionality itself.

493
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 1>So let's talk about interfaces, shall we. As saying you

494
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 1>and me, I'm saying, yeah, you know that's uh. An

495
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.359
<v Speaker 1>abstraction layer is critical when you're doing marking.

496
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.359
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, right, Well you.

497
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Just want to swap one service in for another.

498
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:14.920
<v Speaker 3>So yes, and though well, in general design wise, I

499
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:17.279
<v Speaker 3>want to give a shout out to Mark Sieman as well.

500
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:21.200
<v Speaker 3>He has an actual book book called Code that Fits

501
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.119
<v Speaker 3>in New Head I believe actually did an interview with

502
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:26.960
<v Speaker 3>him on the podcast about that book and he in

503
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.400
<v Speaker 3>there for people who want to double click on this.

504
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 3>He talks a us about, you know, keeping the abstractions

505
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.319
<v Speaker 3>or interfaces at the edge of the system, and especially

506
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.599
<v Speaker 3>at the edge where you maybe have some out of

507
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.759
<v Speaker 3>process communication going on, where you have something that doesn't

508
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 3>that isn't easily h spun up during a test test

509
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.519
<v Speaker 3>unit test for example. So in general I am fine

510
00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:54.759
<v Speaker 3>with introducing interfaces at the itch or if you know,

511
00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:58.880
<v Speaker 3>things starts hurting. I don't introduce interfaces into my code

512
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.640
<v Speaker 3>just so I can not doing testing. Okay, if unless

513
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.519
<v Speaker 3>that is the pain point, I actually prefer the testing

514
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.519
<v Speaker 3>style I believe it's actually called, I think the Chicago

515
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.599
<v Speaker 3>school of testing or our classic school of testing, where

516
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:15.599
<v Speaker 3>you test from the outside in and you if you

517
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.440
<v Speaker 3>touch one to five ors in classes doesn't really matter.

518
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.839
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to test each class in isolation and

519
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:24.640
<v Speaker 3>put interfaces around all like every single class has an

520
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 3>inservace in front of it so I can mark out

521
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.920
<v Speaker 3>it's if it's been used as a dependency somewhere else.

522
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:32.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't really see a lot of value in that.

523
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:33.839
<v Speaker 3>And again it also leads to just a lot of

524
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.559
<v Speaker 3>maintenance and maintainability of your test just goes down.

525
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.279
<v Speaker 1>Mark Semen is one of our favorite and favorite smart people.

526
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 1>He is a great Dane, isn't he he is?

527
00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:46.880
<v Speaker 3>He's frankly, he's he's quite a bit better at explaining

528
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.480
<v Speaker 3>some of these things that I feel I am. I

529
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:50.720
<v Speaker 3>really he's an expliration for sure.

530
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.480
<v Speaker 1>So I have a little story here. I was working

531
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.599
<v Speaker 1>for a company that had some data that they were

532
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:02.000
<v Speaker 1>pulling from Oh let's just say it's stock data, and

533
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.440
<v Speaker 1>it was coming from a real time place, and they

534
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.720
<v Speaker 1>wanted to have this real time update of these tickers

535
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:13.160
<v Speaker 1>and stuff, right okay, But their secret sauce was secret,

536
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.400
<v Speaker 1>and I didn't want to be I didn't want to

537
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:20.240
<v Speaker 1>interface with it because that makes me liable in case

538
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 1>of a data breach or something like that. So I said,

539
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.880
<v Speaker 1>look right up front, We're going to make an interface

540
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.759
<v Speaker 1>at this edge, and I'm going to write a little

541
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.400
<v Speaker 1>number generator with a timer or whatever to send me

542
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.039
<v Speaker 1>my data over and I'll pass that over to you

543
00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:37.039
<v Speaker 1>when I'm done, and then you can wire up your

544
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 1>back end stuff. I don't want anything to do with it.

545
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm a UI guy at this point, right. So that

546
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:44.480
<v Speaker 1>was I wasn't using any mocking framework or anything. We

547
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.759
<v Speaker 1>just created an interface and it was their interface, and

548
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.839
<v Speaker 1>I said, all right, here's the data that I'm going

549
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:52.559
<v Speaker 1>to give you, here's the method that i'm going to

550
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:56.000
<v Speaker 1>call when I have new data, and then and Bob's

551
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 1>your uncle. So in that case, it was the it

552
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:04.440
<v Speaker 1>was the business agreement and that dictated that we use

553
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:05.200
<v Speaker 1>that method.

554
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:08.640
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think so. I think that's a completely fair

555
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.319
<v Speaker 3>use of interfaces. So, if you have something that is

556
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:15.000
<v Speaker 3>external to your application, put an interface in front of that,

557
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.759
<v Speaker 3>or in domator and design we call that an inter

558
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.240
<v Speaker 3>corruption layer. You create a facade but sits in front

559
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:24.640
<v Speaker 3>of some external thing that you have to talk to

560
00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.039
<v Speaker 3>or that talks to you. And and that is so

561
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:32.200
<v Speaker 3>that if they change whatever they're doing, it doesn't affect

562
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.119
<v Speaker 3>your cover. You have a facade.

563
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 1>So that and more importantly, I don't know the implementation

564
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.559
<v Speaker 1>details on the back end, and then that's a good thing.

565
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:44.319
<v Speaker 3>They're not important to you exactly. And I'm so in

566
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.799
<v Speaker 3>general like those kinds of thing, and even when I'm

567
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:50.200
<v Speaker 3>using mocking framework, that's fine. My go to actually is

568
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.039
<v Speaker 3>if I have something out of process that is also

569
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:58.039
<v Speaker 3>externally observable, I would just handcode, you know, a custom

570
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:03.680
<v Speaker 3>mock or fake for that interface, because it's gonna instead

571
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.680
<v Speaker 3>of having repeated in every single test the setup code

572
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.880
<v Speaker 3>for my whatever what needs to do, I just have

573
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.759
<v Speaker 3>a generic fake implementation of the interface if it's repository

574
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.920
<v Speaker 3>or sending an email or something, and it will be

575
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.119
<v Speaker 3>using my domain language instead of the generic Marcking set

576
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.799
<v Speaker 3>up language, which is well, you learn to read it,

577
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.400
<v Speaker 3>but it's it's not the same language that the rest

578
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.160
<v Speaker 3>of your program is. It's the custom API, right, So

579
00:31:31.160 --> 00:31:35.279
<v Speaker 3>I find that that is valuable and if you can,

580
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.880
<v Speaker 3>probably you can more often can you can reuse those

581
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:41.440
<v Speaker 3>handwritten marks of face throughout the different tests because you

582
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.920
<v Speaker 3>tend to make them just like they just immurate the

583
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:47.559
<v Speaker 3>behavior of whatever you're interfacing with. So the fake of

584
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:50.599
<v Speaker 3>the mark itself, the handwritten one, will also be a

585
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:54.960
<v Speaker 3>documentation for how you expect the the third party to behave.

586
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:57.640
<v Speaker 3>So if that changes, you go and update the fake,

587
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.920
<v Speaker 3>and then all the tests don't change because they still

588
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.519
<v Speaker 3>have the same surface and likely on this there's actually

589
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:09.359
<v Speaker 3>new behavior. Well the tests actually have to change. The

590
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.200
<v Speaker 3>test will still keep running, so you have a secret

591
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:13.319
<v Speaker 3>place you have to update instead of having you know,

592
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.640
<v Speaker 3>you change them something in one interface, and then all

593
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.039
<v Speaker 3>the tests break because all the bogs are now wrong

594
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.240
<v Speaker 3>and you need to do update the configurations all the

595
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.000
<v Speaker 3>tests that use the same interface or lock that interface out.

596
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:26.400
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, it's about spending a little bit of extra

597
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.240
<v Speaker 3>effort initially to create the fake versus just using the

598
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:33.319
<v Speaker 3>generic marcking library, and it will save a lot of

599
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.480
<v Speaker 3>time in the long run. I think in my experience.

600
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.079
<v Speaker 1>That's very cool and it feels like a good place

601
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:40.200
<v Speaker 1>to take breaks. So we'll be right back after these

602
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:46.200
<v Speaker 1>very important messages stick around. Did you know you can

603
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.519
<v Speaker 1>lift and shift your dot net framework apps to virtual

604
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.839
<v Speaker 1>machines in the cloud. Use the elastic bean stock service

605
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.839
<v Speaker 1>to easily migrate to Amazon EC too with little or

606
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:02.319
<v Speaker 1>no changes. Find out more at aws dot Amazon dot

607
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 1>com slash elastic beanstock.

608
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. It's dot net rocks amateur Capbell. Let's

609
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:13.960
<v Speaker 2>call Franklin Yo. Yeah, I can do our friend Eagle

610
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Henson a bit about you know, making really valuable tests too.

611
00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.200
<v Speaker 2>Recently we did a show with w O'Brien talking about

612
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:24.759
<v Speaker 2>the MCP for playwright Wonderful, and it made me start

613
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:28.759
<v Speaker 2>thinking about how we make more resilient tests by not

614
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 2>writing the tests at all, but by writing prompts to

615
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.720
<v Speaker 2>generate tests so that we would be able to regenerate

616
00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.039
<v Speaker 2>tests pretty quickly with those kinds of tools, Like how

617
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.359
<v Speaker 2>important is it to handwrite this test code versus using

618
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:45.480
<v Speaker 2>these generative tools for writing that kind of code. You

619
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:47.480
<v Speaker 2>knew we were going to get to add sooner or later.

620
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well we have to check that box. I think

621
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:55.000
<v Speaker 3>it's an excellent question, and I am using I'm playing

622
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.519
<v Speaker 3>around both of Claude and with all the OMII tools

623
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:06.759
<v Speaker 3>from GitHub as well. I think, you know, back to

624
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.079
<v Speaker 3>my original point, is a good test suite is something

625
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:14.000
<v Speaker 3>gives you confidence. I have tried to was it a

626
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:17.159
<v Speaker 3>vibe code or just have an agent code, you know,

627
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:20.679
<v Speaker 3>a library for me, something I needed for production app,

628
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.360
<v Speaker 3>something you know, a bit more complex, not just a

629
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:29.039
<v Speaker 3>simple thing. And it was a general a good experience,

630
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.679
<v Speaker 3>like we would go through all the things, and I

631
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.840
<v Speaker 3>told it to go in a very strict TDD fashion.

632
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:38.639
<v Speaker 3>So we brought brought down to this was carawed. I said,

633
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:41.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, we're going to do GDD and just break

634
00:34:41.320 --> 00:34:43.840
<v Speaker 3>down and take the most simple thing we can build

635
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:45.920
<v Speaker 3>first and write a test for that, then write code

636
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.199
<v Speaker 3>and some back and forth. But at the end of

637
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.679
<v Speaker 3>you know, a long day of experimenting with that, that

638
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 3>was quote and all the code passed or all the

639
00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:58.039
<v Speaker 3>tests passed, and the production code was there. I wasn't

640
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:03.639
<v Speaker 3>sure if but honestly I didn't trust it because for me.

641
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.480
<v Speaker 3>The key part when I'm actually writing a test or

642
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:12.000
<v Speaker 3>writing production code is I am I'm thinking about like

643
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:14.840
<v Speaker 3>all the turns that I don't take during writing test,

644
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.039
<v Speaker 3>like thinking about, well can I do this? No, that

645
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:18.960
<v Speaker 3>doesn't work because X, Y and C. And then I

646
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:21.079
<v Speaker 3>discover something else I need to think about as well

647
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 3>when I sort of problem solve go through it. I

648
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.039
<v Speaker 3>haven't found a way with AI agency yet to get

649
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:29.360
<v Speaker 3>that same experience where I know I've been through all

650
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:32.000
<v Speaker 3>the educases and I've thought about that because I know,

651
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:32.599
<v Speaker 3>go for one.

652
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.920
<v Speaker 2>But you only see those educases by writing the primary

653
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:39.480
<v Speaker 2>case and bumping into them. So it's the thought exercise.

654
00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:43.119
<v Speaker 2>It is, Yeah, that happens right right, the code that

655
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 2>actually helps you find those edges.

656
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.400
<v Speaker 3>It helps. So one thing I have done is I

657
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 3>have either tried to write the production code, the code

658
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:55.480
<v Speaker 3>that needs to some testing at some point, write that

659
00:35:55.559 --> 00:36:01.199
<v Speaker 3>by hand without tests first, and then tell, you know,

660
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.039
<v Speaker 3>a AI agent of choice to go look at the

661
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.800
<v Speaker 3>changes I have here and write tests that test these things. Right,

662
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:11.159
<v Speaker 3>and if I have existing tests already, you know, look

663
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.679
<v Speaker 3>at the existing tests, see how they're structured. Maybe I

664
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:15.719
<v Speaker 3>write one or two tests myself because I want it

665
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.679
<v Speaker 3>to be done in a specific way, and then it

666
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:22.400
<v Speaker 3>can typically iterate over it and figure out well, these

667
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:24.559
<v Speaker 3>are all the it's cases, these are all the branching

668
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:26.440
<v Speaker 3>got things we need to test for, and it will

669
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.000
<v Speaker 3>bid out a whole bunch of tests. But I've also

670
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:31.119
<v Speaker 3>seen when I looked at some of the code that

671
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 3>has been generated sometimes that will be a test where

672
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.440
<v Speaker 3>that is a source just doesn't make sense. So I

673
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:43.440
<v Speaker 3>don't think it's a silver bullet. You definitely need to

674
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.639
<v Speaker 3>do a ferral review like you would with if you

675
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:49.159
<v Speaker 3>have an open source and you get a pro request

676
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 3>in from somebody you don't know, you really have to

677
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.800
<v Speaker 3>read food very carefully, and at that point if it's

678
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:59.400
<v Speaker 3>something very deeply technical. I my experience is that the

679
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.000
<v Speaker 3>amountlets time it really takes to do a very ferl

680
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:06.559
<v Speaker 3>review of the code you have received from somewhere like

681
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.960
<v Speaker 3>it's almost as you could have just written it yourself.

682
00:37:09.079 --> 00:37:10.159
<v Speaker 3>Like at that point, if you.

683
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.239
<v Speaker 2>The energy to do that, reviews same energy as to

684
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:13.639
<v Speaker 2>write it.

685
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:17.039
<v Speaker 3>So what I do like with alarms is that they

686
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.599
<v Speaker 3>are really really good at reviewing things though, so you

687
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:26.320
<v Speaker 3>so using them using them with githob assigning copilots as

688
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:30.719
<v Speaker 3>a reviewer, they usually always find something. Sometimes it's just nitpicking,

689
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:33.119
<v Speaker 3>like you spell this word wrong, or but sometimes that

690
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.400
<v Speaker 3>is actually think so elerms. I think much more valuable,

691
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:40.880
<v Speaker 3>at least in my workflows right now, in reviewing what

692
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.960
<v Speaker 3>I've done and giving me feedback or having that back

693
00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.320
<v Speaker 3>and forth. Whether we are just iterating on ideas, sparring

694
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:49.360
<v Speaker 3>and what didn't I think about here? And there would

695
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.599
<v Speaker 3>be something? So that add lots.

696
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:57.480
<v Speaker 1>So we're getting into using models to generate tests, and

697
00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:02.320
<v Speaker 1>then using models another model perhaps to value and validate

698
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.320
<v Speaker 1>it and review it.

699
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:05.480
<v Speaker 2>And software arguing with software.

700
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Maybe maybe this is our future, you know, and we

701
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.440
<v Speaker 1>are layers of models.

702
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:13.760
<v Speaker 2>But it speaks to and I know you're working on

703
00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:15.480
<v Speaker 2>a B in a two point Oh, it's like, should

704
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:18.400
<v Speaker 2>there be an MCP for B unit just so that

705
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:23.800
<v Speaker 2>those features are easily exposed to a prompting system.

706
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.800
<v Speaker 3>So I think it could be. I think our MCP.

707
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 3>So what would be, you know, quite extensive documentation with

708
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 3>examples so that say go and look at the documentation

709
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:37.519
<v Speaker 3>and figure out how to make this test work. I

710
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.480
<v Speaker 3>think that that is I think a difference with playwright

711
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:42.480
<v Speaker 3>and the MGP. So what they have is because you're

712
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.719
<v Speaker 3>actually running a browser that has words of API. So

713
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.719
<v Speaker 3>so it's it's a slightly different scenario.

714
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 2>I think one thing necessary abstraction, Yes.

715
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:58.320
<v Speaker 3>And again. So now you can also say, well, if

716
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:02.039
<v Speaker 3>you have a generally a whole bunch of test cases

717
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:06.880
<v Speaker 3>for whatever you're building, well those are either another ELM

718
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:09.840
<v Speaker 3>or yourself that has to maintain those going forward. So

719
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.519
<v Speaker 3>there is a point to having, you know, slipping that

720
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.599
<v Speaker 3>down or at least looking critically at them and saying this,

721
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:19.599
<v Speaker 3>this is actually a valuable test. Does that actually test

722
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.639
<v Speaker 3>something that other tasts aren't testing already? Right? I did try,

723
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.760
<v Speaker 3>which is something I want to experiment more with. Have

724
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.599
<v Speaker 3>you heard about striker dot net it's a mutation testing

725
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.800
<v Speaker 3>framework from my yourself, Well, it's it's from different platforms.

726
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 3>So is so with mutation testing? What it does? It

727
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 3>takes your test suite and then it says your production code,

728
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:43.199
<v Speaker 3>and then find conditionals in your production code, and then

729
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:46.719
<v Speaker 3>and it flips flips that conditional at at a very

730
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:49.239
<v Speaker 3>basic level, and then it runs all your tests. If

731
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:53.000
<v Speaker 3>it all your tests pass with that flip conditional, well

732
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.159
<v Speaker 3>then you have they call it a mutant that survived

733
00:39:56.440 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 3>it's you know, from the x N universe, and and

734
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.000
<v Speaker 3>it will you said it loose on your code base.

735
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:04.440
<v Speaker 3>You need to have everything building and compiling. I'm always

736
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 3>just passing before you do that. But it will then

737
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.400
<v Speaker 3>spend ten minutes, fifteen minutes as long as you wanted

738
00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 3>to go, just going through all your production cont finding

739
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:14.159
<v Speaker 3>bits to flip. And it will do that, and it

740
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:16.760
<v Speaker 3>will run all your tests and if some tests, if

741
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:20.239
<v Speaker 3>that's test that doesn't fail, well then it reported back

742
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:23.719
<v Speaker 3>to you in a in a in a report you

743
00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.239
<v Speaker 3>get after the run that tells you, well, I flipped

744
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.920
<v Speaker 3>these conditionals and there were no tests that broke when

745
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.400
<v Speaker 3>I did that. So I find that to be a

746
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:33.840
<v Speaker 3>much better metric for whether or not I have good

747
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.400
<v Speaker 3>code covers or not, because just going crossing over a

748
00:40:37.480 --> 00:40:40.159
<v Speaker 3>line during a test doesn't mean you actually, you know,

749
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:44.239
<v Speaker 3>I'm sitting here on video doing the you know.

750
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:47.239
<v Speaker 2>Podcast That doesn't work.

751
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.719
<v Speaker 3>So I actually asked Claude to say go down too, Striker,

752
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.119
<v Speaker 3>because it claimed that it is done, it had done

753
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:58.000
<v Speaker 3>all what to do for that library, low level libry building,

754
00:40:58.039 --> 00:40:59.920
<v Speaker 3>and then run this against it, and then it's spent

755
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.559
<v Speaker 3>two hours more just running Striker look at the report

756
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:07.400
<v Speaker 3>than adding more tests. So that is you know a

757
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.119
<v Speaker 3>way to go forward and find find the test that

758
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.119
<v Speaker 3>you haven't written yet.

759
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:15.199
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Yeah, because we're presuming all mutations are bad. You

760
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:16.519
<v Speaker 2>know that's this very x men.

761
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:20.840
<v Speaker 3>Well no, so yeah, if you go this website striper

762
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:22.519
<v Speaker 3>dot net. But if you go and look there, you

763
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:26.159
<v Speaker 3>will see there will be mutations where you can see that.

764
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.159
<v Speaker 3>It's never it's like it's on reasonable code. As soon

765
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:30.199
<v Speaker 3>as they flip that bit.

766
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:34.440
<v Speaker 2>You shared striker dot net, isn't it striker mutator dot io.

767
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:36.519
<v Speaker 3>Maybe they changed the U own.

768
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because it's that that's the site with JavaScript, n C,

769
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:40.280
<v Speaker 2>sharp end Scala.

770
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:43.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh yeah, you're right, Striker.

771
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Mutata including the show notes for folks who want it

772
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:48.559
<v Speaker 2>helps you find the code that has leaked out of

773
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:49.039
<v Speaker 2>your head.

774
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:55.440
<v Speaker 3>So it's it's a very It will also report things

775
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:57.559
<v Speaker 3>and obviously it can flip a bit and then the

776
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.480
<v Speaker 3>compiler doesn't it doesn't compile anymore, and that is also

777
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.280
<v Speaker 3>counted as you know, that's just stetic tybing.

778
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.920
<v Speaker 2>That's easy to do. I do that all the time, exactly.

779
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 2>But I love this idea that you it makes changes

780
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.039
<v Speaker 2>to code. It still pass. But still the question is

781
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:15.599
<v Speaker 2>is the code now incorrect?

782
00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:20.239
<v Speaker 3>Well, the point is it's about checking if your test

783
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 3>tweet is giving your protection against your questions. Because if

784
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.599
<v Speaker 3>I can go and flip the bits and no, none

785
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.000
<v Speaker 3>of my test of breaking, I might it might just

786
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:28.639
<v Speaker 3>not be a nothing, but it might also be that

787
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:31.440
<v Speaker 3>I've broken the behavior of my application. Absolutely, So you

788
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:34.840
<v Speaker 3>want your test weite to capture or to catch those

789
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:39.159
<v Speaker 3>things if it's important. So, yeah, Typically when I run

790
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:43.320
<v Speaker 3>Striker on my code, that is quite a large list,

791
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:45.480
<v Speaker 3>and some of them you just say, well, that's not

792
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:46.039
<v Speaker 3>an issue.

793
00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:48.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to do that. Yeah, Gail, do you

794
00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 2>hate nells as much as I do?

795
00:42:50.280 --> 00:42:53.920
<v Speaker 1>For testing? Aren't they like the worst? Do you like

796
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:57.000
<v Speaker 1>when you create a test, should you automatically should your

797
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:02.119
<v Speaker 1>framework automatically check for nolls before I actually add more tasks?

798
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:07.159
<v Speaker 3>Well? I think we are. Well, we're talking dot Net.

799
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.119
<v Speaker 3>We have we have a compiler that will do that

800
00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:11.920
<v Speaker 3>for us, so I will I.

801
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Will use If they change it run time and you're

802
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:18.320
<v Speaker 1>not doing any null checking, there's a runtime error that

803
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.239
<v Speaker 1>can occur and often does.

804
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:24.880
<v Speaker 3>So I think that's that's the things between what kind

805
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:27.880
<v Speaker 3>of things. You're if you're building a component, well at

806
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:31.400
<v Speaker 3>a reusable library that you probabish as a NUCAD, you

807
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:35.639
<v Speaker 3>would want even if you have noables enabled in your library.

808
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.199
<v Speaker 3>When you're building it out and you use all the

809
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:42.159
<v Speaker 3>right attributes, your in user, which is not in the

810
00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:46.320
<v Speaker 3>same compile space as you are, can passing. Yeah, they could.

811
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.199
<v Speaker 3>They can pass in a all because they might have

812
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.000
<v Speaker 3>turned Dollible off in their compiler.

813
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Right.

814
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.280
<v Speaker 3>So on the so, if you're building a library, definitely

815
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:58.000
<v Speaker 3>on all your public GAPI surfaces, I add indult checks

816
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:02.000
<v Speaker 3>or in general, you know, just use the various arguments

817
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.280
<v Speaker 3>out of range and all of that checks. Because you

818
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:07.039
<v Speaker 3>can't will do that and bid units. You can't trust

819
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:09.719
<v Speaker 3>your users to do the right thing, or they might

820
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:12.639
<v Speaker 3>just have apology of not using nollible in their code base.

821
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.920
<v Speaker 3>If I'm building a line of business application or internal

822
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 3>applications where everything that gets compilers compiled by my compiler,

823
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.440
<v Speaker 3>how I compuget it. I am much more inclient to

824
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 3>just trust that. You know, if we've said that this

825
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.719
<v Speaker 3>object here can not when you pass it into this method,

826
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.320
<v Speaker 3>well the compiler will tell me if I'm trying to

827
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:36.840
<v Speaker 3>pass in an object. I think it's especially the later

828
00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:39.559
<v Speaker 3>version of c Shop has gotten very good at basically

829
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:42.239
<v Speaker 3>understanding how objects flow and capture that.

830
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, it has, but when we turn nullible on now

831
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:49.880
<v Speaker 1>we see a lot of squiggles from the compiler and

832
00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:54.440
<v Speaker 1>visual studio. Yes, and I think of them sometimes as

833
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:58.199
<v Speaker 1>noise because it's everywhere, and I know that could be

834
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:00.559
<v Speaker 1>no but it's not because I'm clearly looking at the

835
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.360
<v Speaker 1>code and so I'm probably not alone in that. A

836
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:09.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of developers so that out you know, I hear you.

837
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:14.559
<v Speaker 3>I would strongly recommend that to really work well with

838
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 3>notable enabled, you have to enable it. And then I

839
00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 3>also always enable three warnings as errors, at least in

840
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:25.159
<v Speaker 3>my release belts. And then we simply don't like I

841
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:27.400
<v Speaker 3>would if you have, for example, if you know you're

842
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.679
<v Speaker 3>talking to external things like it's not part of your

843
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:33.280
<v Speaker 3>internal business logic domain, where sometimes you can have an

844
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:35.559
<v Speaker 3>all come in or the library will tell you that

845
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:38.000
<v Speaker 3>this may be not even though you know in all

846
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:40.079
<v Speaker 3>my use cases it's never going to be all right. Well,

847
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:43.079
<v Speaker 3>I just put a guard in at the itches so

848
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:47.840
<v Speaker 3>I know that within my code everything is not knowable,

849
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:50.760
<v Speaker 3>and it's a bit annoying. Sometimes you have to add

850
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.639
<v Speaker 3>an additional check just because, right you can.

851
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:55.199
<v Speaker 2>But but I do that all the time.

852
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm it's in my DNA to put those centuries in

853
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:00.239
<v Speaker 1>place at the edge.

854
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:05.440
<v Speaker 3>So but if you force yourself into not not accepting

855
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:09.239
<v Speaker 3>any normal warnings squigglies and simply deal with them at

856
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.320
<v Speaker 3>the ages where you are, then you are much less

857
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.840
<v Speaker 3>likely to have problems, at least in my experience.

858
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 1>But that's you know, except now you're going to spend

859
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:21.599
<v Speaker 1>an extra hour getting rid of those squiggles.

860
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:23.440
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure co Pilot can help you with that.

861
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure exactly.

862
00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.280
<v Speaker 1>That's a good use for a Hey, get rid of

863
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.119
<v Speaker 1>all them spriggs.

864
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:32.039
<v Speaker 3>They are actually quite good at figuring something like that out.

865
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:34.920
<v Speaker 3>And obviously you have to do a bit of monitoring

866
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:39.519
<v Speaker 3>on on things as well afterwards, reviewing the changes.

867
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Right.

868
00:46:40.639 --> 00:46:46.159
<v Speaker 3>Actually, speaking of Mark Semen, I wanted to call out

869
00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:50.440
<v Speaker 3>something else which I find is right quite interesting, is

870
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:55.519
<v Speaker 3>naming of tests. So I want so because there's no

871
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.960
<v Speaker 3>right or wrong here. But he had a good blog

872
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 3>post a while back, so let me let's me test

873
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:05.280
<v Speaker 3>out the scenario on YouTube. So imagine we have I

874
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:08.519
<v Speaker 3>don't know, a podcast met Ninja class and and we

875
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:10.440
<v Speaker 3>want to write it has a feature where you can

876
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:12.480
<v Speaker 3>upload a new podcast and it maybe have to go

877
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:16.119
<v Speaker 3>life time in the future, So we want to write

878
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:20.599
<v Speaker 3>a unit test for that feature. So just off the

879
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:22.960
<v Speaker 3>top of the head, what would you name that test?

880
00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:27.119
<v Speaker 3>Like the test where we're just uploading a file call

881
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:30.400
<v Speaker 3>the surface of the API and say, oh, here's his

882
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:32.480
<v Speaker 3>new podcast and has a good life date and you

883
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.000
<v Speaker 3>know something, you know, some assertions should happen as well,

884
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.280
<v Speaker 3>what what what name would you give that test?

885
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, if I worked for Microsoft, I'd call it uh

886
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:50.440
<v Speaker 1>foundation framework for testing podcast uploading and checking to see

887
00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:52.480
<v Speaker 1>if it's valid.

888
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, something like that.

889
00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:00.639
<v Speaker 3>So something about something with the whatever you using, then

890
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:06.519
<v Speaker 3>maybe the action and then some expected outcome assertion. Right, yeah,

891
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:12.360
<v Speaker 3>and I so Mark had a really great point. Whenever, well,

892
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:14.239
<v Speaker 3>at least for my sake, I guess for Marks as well,

893
00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:16.320
<v Speaker 3>whenever I read a test, when I come into a

894
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.599
<v Speaker 3>test I haven't seen before somebody else has written bad,

895
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:21.400
<v Speaker 3>I actually usually just skip over the name of the

896
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.840
<v Speaker 3>test and start reading the code because my experience is

897
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:28.480
<v Speaker 3>that you can't you can't fit all the details in

898
00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:33.239
<v Speaker 3>the name anyway. So we'll just end up reading the test.

899
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:36.400
<v Speaker 3>And then the name is more of a mandatory comment

900
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:41.199
<v Speaker 3>because methods have to have a name in cl but

901
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:43.760
<v Speaker 3>but they can also contend to go stale like the name.

902
00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:46.280
<v Speaker 3>Like I so many times I've seen a unit test

903
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:50.239
<v Speaker 3>where the name said that it included, for example, bessertion

904
00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:53.519
<v Speaker 3>or expected outcome in the name, but the outcome changed

905
00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:56.639
<v Speaker 3>because business requirements changed, right, but they forgot to update

906
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:57.960
<v Speaker 3>the name of the test. So now you have it.

907
00:48:58.039 --> 00:48:59.760
<v Speaker 3>You're reading the code when you're looking at a test

908
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.079
<v Speaker 3>name and they don't match up, and you're going back

909
00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:03.519
<v Speaker 3>and forth, what is the right thing here?

910
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.480
<v Speaker 1>So usually they start with If I wasn't being flipped,

911
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.079
<v Speaker 1>I would say it's start with should.

912
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:11.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because that's another good word that explains exactly you know,

913
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.760
<v Speaker 3>filler words as well, well, that's another pet peeple. So

914
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:17.199
<v Speaker 3>I think were my recommendation, and what I learned from

915
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:22.760
<v Speaker 3>Mark as well, was to just use the business scenario

916
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:24.880
<v Speaker 3>in the description. So in this case, it might be

917
00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:29.880
<v Speaker 3>something like uploading new podcast with future date future release date,

918
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:32.800
<v Speaker 3>So that is the scenario, that scenario. As long as

919
00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:34.239
<v Speaker 3>you have that feature, it's not going to change. So

920
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.400
<v Speaker 3>the neighbor of test is not going to change, but

921
00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 3>then you fill out the breadth of the test method anyway.

922
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.719
<v Speaker 3>So again that makes it so that you have an easier,

923
00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:47.239
<v Speaker 3>juddiestable test when you get back to it half a

924
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:50.280
<v Speaker 3>year later and figuring out why it's broken or it

925
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.639
<v Speaker 3>just won't to understand what's going on.

926
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Very good.

927
00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:54.760
<v Speaker 3>Small details like that are important.

928
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I think we tend to name the test to the

929
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:02.000
<v Speaker 2>class that you're testing and ending it with tests, so

930
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:03.840
<v Speaker 2>you can sort out the test if you want to,

931
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:06.039
<v Speaker 2>like I kind of want to. I guess I'm always

932
00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.199
<v Speaker 2>thinking from a search perspective, like why am I going

933
00:50:08.239 --> 00:50:10.639
<v Speaker 2>to find this where? You know? Where is this going

934
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:12.360
<v Speaker 2>to live? What is it related to?

935
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:14.840
<v Speaker 3>Well, so I think in dot Net, or at least

936
00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:18.079
<v Speaker 3>in my code, we have all the tests sit in

937
00:50:18.079 --> 00:50:23.840
<v Speaker 3>the separate project test project, and I tend to have

938
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:26.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't tend to have a test class per class

939
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:29.960
<v Speaker 3>I have in my production code, but if it's like

940
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:33.239
<v Speaker 3>the if it's a public surface a p I, I

941
00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.599
<v Speaker 3>will have a you know class named you know product

942
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:41.000
<v Speaker 3>or podcast upload manager tests and that is where all

943
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:45.719
<v Speaker 3>the tests belonging to that sits. That's one approach. You

944
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.199
<v Speaker 3>can also go full b d D and and and

945
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:52.360
<v Speaker 3>girking and all of that, and and have just different

946
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:55.679
<v Speaker 3>sets of tests, or if you are in a different

947
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:58.360
<v Speaker 3>coding environment where you can actually have test code sitting

948
00:50:58.440 --> 00:51:01.159
<v Speaker 3>right next to the coded tests over classes just mixed

949
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:04.719
<v Speaker 3>to it, or whatever terminology they have for their you know,

950
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:10.239
<v Speaker 3>test code and production code, that that's also quite valuable.

951
00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:13.039
<v Speaker 3>It's a bit leaning into the feature foldos concept where

952
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 3>everything that that does belong together is sitting in the

953
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:19.119
<v Speaker 3>same area on disc so you can easily find everything

954
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:23.039
<v Speaker 3>that that that does something together. But I don't think

955
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:25.360
<v Speaker 3>that's a good option in the dot Ninity system at least.

956
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:29.440
<v Speaker 1>So what's next for you? I know you said you're

957
00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:33.360
<v Speaker 1>working on b UNIT two, yes, and is that taking

958
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:35.320
<v Speaker 1>all your time or I mean you're doing a lot

959
00:51:35.320 --> 00:51:37.679
<v Speaker 1>of conference speaking and that kind of stuff.

960
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, so b unit is taking a little bit of

961
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.719
<v Speaker 3>my free time. No writing books for me. I I've

962
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:46.920
<v Speaker 3>heard from from better folks than me that it's not

963
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:50.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's it's not a good idea to get

964
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:53.320
<v Speaker 3>into that too much. But no, Yeah, I have a

965
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:56.639
<v Speaker 3>conference coming up. I think Richard will also be there

966
00:51:56.679 --> 00:52:04.079
<v Speaker 3>in Stavanna. Hello Stavana in Norway. And and hell was Yeah,

967
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:08.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm using the Norwegian pronunciation perhaps uh and but most

968
00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:12.000
<v Speaker 3>of my days to day job, it's it's it's a

969
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:15.480
<v Speaker 3>full time in a little bit. So open source isn't

970
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:17.599
<v Speaker 3>getting a lot of attention these days, but we are

971
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.079
<v Speaker 3>trying to sneak in a few hours every week, me

972
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.480
<v Speaker 3>and Steven to just jump on a scream or jump

973
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.400
<v Speaker 3>on a call and get some work done. So so yeah,

974
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:28.480
<v Speaker 3>that that is. That is, you know, going back to

975
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:32.360
<v Speaker 3>the original comment that you read Richard in the start

976
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:39.159
<v Speaker 3>of the podcast from I forget the name, but yeah,

977
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.679
<v Speaker 3>open sources you know, the work that you do when

978
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:45.480
<v Speaker 3>you don't have work and you don't have family time.

979
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:49.360
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, so it's it's a big bit on the

980
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:51.480
<v Speaker 3>back burner. But I'm waiting for EA agents to come

981
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:53.239
<v Speaker 3>and take my open source job for me, and so

982
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:55.800
<v Speaker 3>I give it instructions and it will do all the

983
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:58.519
<v Speaker 3>right things. It happened, hasn't happened yet, but we might

984
00:52:58.559 --> 00:52:59.719
<v Speaker 3>be lucky when.

985
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, fantastic Ego Hanson, it's been pleasure talking to you

986
00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.039
<v Speaker 1>this hour, and it's always interesting when we sit down

987
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.599
<v Speaker 1>and talk likewise, and we'll talk to you next time

988
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:12.320
<v Speaker 1>on dot net Bronx.

989
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Dot Net.

990
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced

991
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.599
<v Speaker 1>by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post

992
00:53:39.679 --> 00:53:43.840
<v Speaker 1>production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of

993
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:48.800
<v Speaker 1>course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit

994
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:50.960
<v Speaker 1>our website at d O T N E t R

995
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.920
<v Speaker 1>O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

996
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:58.760
<v Speaker 1>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

997
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:02.039
<v Speaker 1>back to show number one, recorded in September two.

998
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Thousand and two.

999
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:05.440
<v Speaker 1>And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep

1000
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:08.719
<v Speaker 1>us in business. Now go write some code. See you

1001
00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:09.159
<v Speaker 1>next time.

1002
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:12.440
<v Speaker 3>You got JAD Middle Vans the

1003
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:18.119
<v Speaker 2>Home