WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:34.399 Five that day. 2 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:41.280 Hello, and welcome to Minor Compositions. For this week's conversation, 3 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:46.520 we are joined by two comrades who I've known so 4 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.159 long since that I cannot actually remember when I met 5 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:53.159 either of you. But it's been a long time. But 6 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:56.479 maybe fifteen twenty years ago, a while ago, right, at 7 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.600 least something like that. 8 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.679 I think more No, not about that, about twenty years ago, 9 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:03.560 I kind of met you. 10 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:05.040 Yeah, long time. 11 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.280 Yeah. So we're joined here by in. 12 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.159 Fact, in fact, I think it was in Lancaster at 13 00:01:10.239 --> 00:01:15.879 some sort of seminar. Yeah, some sort of like super 14 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:18.280 academic not an academic seminar. 15 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:21.200 Anyway, I think it was at Leicester. 16 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:24.719 It could have been at Leices well, it was an 17 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:27.920 l place and anyways, some l place. But today we're 18 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:33.079 joined by by Kirilburn and Nick Bairu. And I thought 19 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:34.879 it'd be interesting to bring you tube together to have 20 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.760 a chat because you for better, for worse, for your 21 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:46.840 sins have both written books about climate change, ecology, crisis, 22 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:53.599 and varying amounts of hope and or doom. So I 23 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:55.519 thought it'd be interesting to sort of bring you to 24 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:57.480 together and have a chat about that and see what 25 00:01:57.640 --> 00:01:59.680 we could make of that. So thanks for coming along. 26 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:05.400 Yeah, thanks for having us not to pick the timing 27 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:08.520 and to interject with the gratitude. 28 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:11.759 Yeah, yeah, you have to you have the time your gratitude. 29 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:15.919 Otherwise it seems weird, right, I. 30 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.039 Mean, I mean I only don't have gratitude. I just 31 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:17.759 have hateful lists. 32 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:24.000 Well that's even better. Speaking of hateful lists, all shout 33 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:29.080 out to the recently departed basis of L seven who 34 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.120 who who had her own many ship lists to go through. 35 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.639 But yeah, so so we have two books here or 36 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:40.759 something Worse and Radical Abundant, which I think are interesting 37 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:44.639 pairing and maybe a way to start thinking through. There 38 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.479 might be I think one concept that both of you 39 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.240 share and play with in different ways, which is the 40 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:58.840 nature of transition. And I it's interesting because first Nick, 41 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.599 I think you start off by the idea that we're 42 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.319 already in a transition, but it's kind of a crappy 43 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.120 transition and tradition which which isn't going how we want 44 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.520 it to go. And I would think in certain ways 45 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.599 I think here, I think you share some of that 46 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.919 so thedea that we're already in a kind of traditional moment, 47 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:19.639 but it's it's maybe something to be fought over. So 48 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:21.199 can we talk a little bit to start to start 49 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.599 off at about that that idea for transition. 50 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.000 It sounds good. How do you how do you want 51 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.599 to how do you want us to get into it? 52 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.319 You know you have to do some traffic light control. 53 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:32.719 And because there's two of. 54 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:38.360 Us, Oh okay, uh, well you go first, Dick. 55 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.719 Well, it's like it's a good question, and I think 56 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.319 it's it is, at least in my mind, is like 57 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.240 three bits to it in terms of how I main transition. 58 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.199 And I sort of say three bits because I'm not 59 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:56.159 particularly I'm kind of like an x philosopher in the 60 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:57.520 sense of it, I don't really have a lot of 61 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.159 time for the PI the philosophical niceties of the concept 62 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.199 of transition itself. Like I kind of tend to think 63 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:06.479 of it in three ways. And the first is that 64 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.199 we're in the midst of a sort of unraveling of 65 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.039 a particular stable climate state, and it is in a 66 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:19.120 transitional period. We are going through a transitional phase. And 67 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.000 the transition the idea of being in a transition, being 68 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:23.800 in a war of transition, at least for me in 69 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:25.680 the beginning, you have to start with that sort of 70 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:31.319 that sort of ecological reality that things are not stable anymore, 71 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.800 and that throws up a series of must be academic, 72 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:43.560 it's a novel events and novel sort of contextual and 73 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:46.560 political economic challenges to the whole thing. So the first 74 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.639 thing is we're in the middle of a climate transition, 75 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.959 and that's a really big atmospheric sense, and there's also 76 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.759 the rest of the global environment unraveling as well. But 77 00:04:57.800 --> 00:04:59.800 that's kind of the first one. The second one is 78 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.560 and I think this is maybe one of the ones 79 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.120 whereas more contentious is that actually, honestly, like I understand, 80 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.680 there's lots of the traditional sort of environmentalist sort of 81 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.000 line that there is no transition happening and we have 82 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.839 to decry the lack of action, and then there's no 83 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.519 movement and emissions went up last year and et cetera, 84 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.240 et cetera. But I think if you take a like 85 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:25.399 a like a sort of a sober reading of the economics, 86 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:31.079 the legislative frameworks, political frameworks, ideas, that sort of whole ensemble, 87 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:39.959 there is an actual change in the regime of capital underway, 88 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:41.800 and like I kind of in the book, I call 89 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.519 it the transition economy because it's kind of it's not 90 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.399 a final state, but it is one that's being built 91 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:52.560 out with state support in the ruins smoking ruins of neoliberalism. 92 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.600 So I kind of mean both an ecological sense and 93 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:01.839 in a yeah, there's an actual change in capitalist organization 94 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.800 and regulation underway. And I think the third one, and 95 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.000 I think this is maybe like a really just because 96 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.079 I'm not a very good philosopher, like a really bad 97 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.079 reading of bram scheme, Like there actually is a war 98 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.959 of there's not just position in maneuver, there's actually something else. 99 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.879 So what do you do when everything else is in flux, 100 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:19.560 everything else is changing, when everything else is sort of 101 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.120 in the process of disorganization. I think a period of 102 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.680 transition is one where everything becomes immediately political and sometimes 103 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:29.240 very random things become very political, very rapidly. So there's 104 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:35.360 a breakdown in that stable ordering of spheres of culture, economics, politics, 105 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.959 because everything, like the most random things can become immediately 106 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.399 contestable and political that might take on it. 107 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.000 So that was like when people say that there is 108 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.160 no transition is happening tradition there is understood as being 109 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.680 a deliberate, intended plan movement towards to something else. Rather 110 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.000 than a thing which is just happening. 111 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:57.839 Yeah, I mean we can get into it later on. 112 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.399 Like I think people have misunderstood what the transition climate 113 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:03.600 change is just a means to an end for businesses. 114 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.079 It's the objective is to a still economic growth after 115 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.000 a really long period of economic stagnation. Like that's the objective, 116 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.040 and then like we chip over ourselves to like is 117 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.519 it real? Is it not real? Is it really reducing commissions? 118 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:18.759 Is it not? Well, that's not that's not the point. 119 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.360 That's kind of like that's it's one of the aims. 120 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.959 That's kind of like a secondary aim like it's but 121 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.560 it's kind of it's subordinate to the principal aim, which 122 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.800 is to drive innovation, investment, the renewal of industries, the 123 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.480 development of new contracts, some new kinds of green rent herism. 124 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:40.360 It's like it's it's that's the main bit of it. 125 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.079 So in that, I mean, tradition is really actually a 126 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.079 process that is attempting to reinitiate a process of capital 127 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.439 accumulation or capital valorization. Would that would that connect to 128 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.199 what you talk about as bullshit abundance? 129 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.879 It would do. Yeah, But let's stick to transition for 130 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.319 That's what I'd say, is because I agree when when 131 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.680 it raised the idea that like that there's a couple 132 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.319 of crises going on at the same time basically, and 133 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:16.040 so accelerating sort of ecological crisis is one of those two. 134 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:18.680 The other one it's probably more actually, but like the 135 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.959 other one would be economic stagnation. I think like that 136 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.439 is like this, there's an overlap between those two. You know, 137 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.560 obviously they compound each other to one degree or another, 138 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.759 because like one of the effects of climate change in 139 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.960 particular is just like increasing costs of everything basically just 140 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.399 like building, do you know what I mean, which obviously 141 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.919 you know, acts as as a form of exacerbates sort 142 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.440 of the economic stagnation would perhaps we put it put 143 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:52.000 it that way, basically, I'd probably add something else. So 144 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:55.759 I probably think i'd add like a demographic crisis or something, 145 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:58.559 which is also at the same time. It's not caused 146 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.799 by those two, it sort of interacts of them basically, 147 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:02.919 which is like an aging population. It's like a real 148 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.080 big problem. And that goes back to that previous book 149 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.919 Generation Left. You know, the the future looks different to 150 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.080 you depending on how much how long you think you've 151 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.480 got of that future yourself basically, and also just because 152 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.759 of like you know, the way that the structure contemporarytructure 153 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.080 of capitalism means that you know, wealth and assets are 154 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.639 you know, generationally dispersed to some degree, which adds a 155 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.360 such certain political block, which adds inertia basically to any 156 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.840 attempt to try to try to change things in a 157 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.759 direction that we'd like them to go in. We'd probably 158 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.799 put it something like like that basically, But if we 159 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:41.840 think about economic stagnation and like climate change, they can 160 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.120 bound each other. But like you know, and at least 161 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.360 at least if the the sort of like raw way 162 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:48.960 you might think of it is that the solutions to 163 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.120 those are intentions they sort of put in different directions. 164 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.000 What's the what's the solution to economic stagnation, It's increased 165 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:58.679 economic growth. So you can, you know, if you can 166 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.559 do a climate an energy source transition, you can try 167 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:04.240 to solve those two things. We seem to have given 168 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.440 up on that one basically, and you know, we're just 169 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.480 based well, these factions are capital are just going into 170 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:14.559 an accelerationist sort of like you know, let's let's what 171 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:17.240 you have to give up basically when you if you 172 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:20.799 just embrace increased climate change, what you have to give 173 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.960 up are like universe, any any potentials that universalists sort 174 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:27.720 of solutions to this, you have like particular exclusionary positions. 175 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.960 Basically you have fascism. Basically, that's one of the links 176 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.639 to it, to this, I think. But I think that 177 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:39.960 like the failed of the unpleasant capitalist transitions we've got 178 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.679 going on, don't exhaust the possibility of what transition can 179 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:50.000 be basically because one of the things, like the transition 180 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.919 opens up, it opens up, you know, it opens up 181 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.960 a temporal dimension to politics, which means that you can 182 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.960 escape from the present basically the eternal present of capitalist 183 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.519 and put it something like that. Particularly like it opens 184 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:07.080 up a temporal dimension to like the strategy. Right, So 185 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:08.919 it's like at the minute, we're caught in like a 186 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.240 politics which is I have a firefighting I you know, 187 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:14.759 we rush from one crisis to the other with the 188 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:17.440 attempt that we might ameliorate them more likely on the left. 189 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.200 Now that leads itself to just like a moralistic politics 190 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.720 where you basically just sort of bear witness to each 191 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:27.000 crisis whatever and say, well, I object. And that's because 192 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.720 you know the space of possibility in the space of 193 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.600 possibility of like you know, social economic and political possibility 194 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:38.720 is always constrained under any particular configuration, but like at 195 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.200 the minute, it's incredibly constrained, especially if you want to 196 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:43.879 act on the left, which leads you to fire fighting 197 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:45.919 or moralistic politics, do you know what I mean? And 198 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.000 the idea of transition opens up this idea that you 199 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.960 can act now within a constrained sense of possibility in 200 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.200 order to increase the space of political possibility in the future. 201 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:58.679 And in fact, that you could think of that that 202 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:02.039 as another way of thinking of transition, basically adding a 203 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.159 temporal dimension to to politics. And if we thought about 204 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.240 transitioning that in that way, we thought about the current 205 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.879 conjuncture in that way of like, what are the temple 206 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.120 dimensions to this? Like, I think that opens up another 207 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:21.360 way of understanding what the current conjuncture or the current 208 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:26.279 iteration of capitalism is basically and why and why, like 209 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:30.279 you know, any sort of like change towards even decalbonization 210 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:34.759 seems to be so stalled and so difficult. And if 211 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.320 we think about like that, the key sort of instruments 212 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.559 of contemporary capitalism, apart from data centers, it would be 213 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.799 things like you know, like debts, like assetization. By that, 214 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.679 I mean like, you know, the tenancy even capitalism, like 215 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.159 Thomas Picketty points out, et cetera, towards sweating existing assets 216 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.440 rather than creating new assets. But you could also add 217 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.639 like like financialized capitalization of new assets, so data centers, 218 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.879 et cetera. That all of those are like claims on 219 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.080 the future. There are claims on future earnings. And when 220 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.759 you claim in those future earnings, you also use structuring 221 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.799 the future or you're encumbering the future, as that new 222 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:15.519 Timothy Mitchell book puts it basically, And so that that's 223 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.399 that's the ward of transition for me. It's like who 224 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.840 the transition is? Who can who can control the future basically, 225 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.360 And so like in the in our book, all of 226 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.559 that leads us to say, like, you know, the key 227 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.840 battleground is over the is over the control over the 228 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:32.720 investment function. What who decides what gets invested in? What 229 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.879 of the imperatives that do that, and like what are 230 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:38.480 the forms of like capitalization, et cetera, which allow that 231 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:45.240 which which investment decisions then fulfill, et cetera. Feel that 232 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:45.759 makes sense. 233 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.960 One of the things I've been really struck by over 234 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.039 the past few months or maybe past year, and maybe 235 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.720 it shouldn't be surprised at all, but it has been 236 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.720 the speed and the thoroughness which the UK Libor Party 237 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.399 seems to have a better any sort of pretense to 238 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.240 caring about about sustainability or collogy at all, and and 239 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.360 it seems to have been basically all net zero targets 240 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.759 almost immediately. But it sim the reason maybe maybe I've 241 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.159 understand this incorrectly, but since to be part of the 242 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:19.639 reason why that's happened is but how effectively certain right 243 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:25.200 wing forces have frame issues around zero as being almost 244 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.639 an involuntary austerity of like, oh, yeah, you're not gonna 245 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.919 have Hamburgers or cars, and you want Hamburgers and cars, 246 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.519 don't you, So like how could we have net zero? 247 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:38.799 And it seems to be that there's interesting ways in 248 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:43.639 which questions around transition are framed around almost exclusively in 249 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.159 these kind of ractory cultural politics, around questions around what 250 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.519 you would have to give up in a material sense 251 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:54.600 in order to achieve the world not becoming an uninhabitable healthscape. 252 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.919 I mean, I'm just jumping because like so one of 253 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.279 the things, one of the promises I made myself and 254 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.000 I wrote when I finished the book. Is because like 255 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.159 when you write a book, it's like you do like 256 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.759 it's years of work and writing and research, and then 257 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:13.200 the actual writing of the book takes like a absolute 258 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.919 shed ton of time. I'm restraining my inner Australian to 259 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.679 just lash out into curse words in endless stream, which 260 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.600 is just familiar and comfortable to me. But I'm going 261 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:27.480 to accept it up my comfort zone and not be 262 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.639 dis really crass. But like, it takes a lot of time, 263 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:32.799 but there's a temptation to park it and put on 264 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:35.039 the shelf. But one of the things I've been trying 265 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.440 to do is to continue the research work of the book, 266 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:39.799 and I sort of sort of set up a sub 267 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.039 stack where I kept I'm going through little aspects of 268 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.639 the book itself over time, and one of the ones 269 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:47.200 that came up one of the things that's come up 270 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:50.200 a lot in the continual research because I live out 271 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.440 in Suffolk in the countryside. For listeners who don't know 272 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.639 where Suffolk is, Suffolk is imagine nowhere and then go 273 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.960 further out somewhere else towards more or nowhere, and it's 274 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.039 pretty much there and on the eastern bit, the bumpy, 275 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.159 little bumpy bit of the island that's England, the we 276 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.759 England's part of the island. And one of the things 277 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.360 that's happened here is is it's this is a real 278 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.120 sort of battleground, but not a normal battleground. It's it's 279 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.039 it used to be a real conservative heartland, but it's 280 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.960 now a battleground between the Green Party. It's like, on 281 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.200 one hand, who are obsensibly the most left wing party 282 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.399 in the UK, sorry, in in England. I'm not going 283 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.120 to go speak for the rest of the countries in 284 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:38.120 the our glorious Kingdom and reform on the right. And 285 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:39.799 one of the reasons this a bit of a long 286 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:44.120 winded winding is because they've been trying and I emphasized, 287 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:47.840 trying to use net zero here to generate a new 288 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.519 kind of constituency and they're trying to do it in 289 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.960 the same they're trying to replicate their playbook around migration, 290 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.960 and I get to it in a secondment, it's not 291 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.480 working for them. And we saw that last set of 292 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.639 local elections and May they had to start rolling back 293 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.759 some of their e reetric and that's coming apart at 294 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:07.720 a local level, and there's two parts to it. And perversely, 295 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.720 I don't think I like I would have a year 296 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.799 ago if you'd said me, why I reformed talk about 297 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:14.440 in net zero? I would have said exactly the same thing. 298 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.000 It's about because they want to try to make it 299 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.960 turn into a kind of austerity. But when we look 300 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.680 at what they're doing, it actually comes down to two things. 301 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.720 There's two bits to it. One is is actually how 302 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:30.680 the transition of heavy industry in places like England and 303 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.680 Scotland is in the US is playing out. Which is 304 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.799 it came with a series of promises. Like we're talking 305 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.000 before about it's a change of political economy, it came 306 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.640 with a series of promises. It was a series of 307 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:47.400 promises to two men by men about manly industries, about 308 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.599 restoring It was essentially as a story of like this 309 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.039 is this green trend, this this inflation Reduction Act which 310 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.640 is called the IRA, which I love. It's like this 311 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.519 all this net zero stuff, it's going to be like 312 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.200 we're going to have hard hats and manliness and like 313 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:06.519 banging things and they'll we steal and like belching thrusting 314 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.200 machines and they'll be awesome and they'll be jobs, and 315 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.240 it was just bullshit. And there's lots of technical reasons 316 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:19.279 why it's bullshit. From electrification more often than not leading 317 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:24.079 to much simpler work processes, saturated global markets, like a 318 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.359 lot of the industries across Europe in particular were export orientated, 319 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.759 and without you know, if you lose market share in 320 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.160 China and India, you don't have any more growth. There's 321 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.319 a huge No, there's a lot of factors, but that 322 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.599 all of them in the end package don't mean that 323 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:42.599 those promises of net zero became associated with betrayed promises. 324 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.279 If you look at the last two elections, the local 325 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.480 and the national one, the number one reason people who 326 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.880 used to vote for the Labor Party switched to reform 327 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:55.240 was betrayal. So I think it's actually, at least for 328 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.279 lots of workers. The selling point is that net zero 329 00:18:59.359 --> 00:18:59.960 is a betrayal. 330 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.799 So could that be so simple as like you promise 331 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.359 green steel, but green steel came with less people working 332 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:08.440 in the factory. 333 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.279 Even worse, and this connects to the second. It it's 334 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.599 even worse in that the classic example when I was 335 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.440 finishing the book was Tata Steel in Port Talbot up 336 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.160 in Wales, it was going to close, it was losing 337 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.160 a million, It was losing like a lot of money, 338 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.440 like millions, like every day. It was just churning through money. 339 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.559 And the Tata Steel the owner went to the UK 340 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.200 government said well, if you give us some money to 341 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.599 help us change from coal fired blast furnaces to electric 342 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.000 arc furnaces. Yeah, we use recycled steel. Steel is the 343 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.880 most recycled material on earth. Like, we've got plenty of 344 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.000 We've got more scrap steel in the UK than we 345 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.400 need for raw material. We'll go green and we'll protect jobs. 346 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.240 It will just cost you half a billion quid a 347 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.640 third of the cost. And the UK government starma political 348 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.000 genius was like, yeah, fucking sold. There's gonna be weird. 349 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.359 They're gonna get green steel. Port Talbot was one point 350 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.559 five percent of all the UK's emissions carbon emissions, so 351 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:11.759 you know, green win, job win, Like, get in there, fellers. 352 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:15.359 They're now still giving them half a billion quid. Next 353 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.200 day they sacked half the workforce. You just don't need 354 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.920 as many people. So it's even worse because the betrayal 355 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.680 comes not just from jobs not turning up, but because 356 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.880 the government's paid for you to lose your job, and 357 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:34.279 now the government technically did protect half the jobs. But 358 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.599 that's part of reforms sell, that's part of the is 359 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.119 the betrayals of the promises of the green transition. The 360 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.960 second bit, in some ways is is more insidious since 361 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.359 a hangover from neoliberalism. Like at a local level the earth, 362 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:51.559 there are others sell reforms, others cell around here is 363 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.960 that you know you're posing a wind farm, you're posing 364 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.799 a solar farm. Net serea is gonna cost you money. 365 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:59.039 There's gonna be load traffic zones, like, there's all the 366 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.640 all the lockdown crazy is like climate lockdown is going 367 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.200 to trap you in your neighborhood. There's just all this. 368 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.160 There was this. There's lots of grassroots campaigns, some of 369 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.160 them anti developments, some of them just whack you, but 370 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.720 reformers trying to bring them in. They're trying to bring 371 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:18.480 these two constituents together. And the way it works for 372 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.880 local campaigners is that there's lots of disquiet. I don't 373 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.680 want my field paved over, I don't want pylons, I 374 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.000 don't want lots of trucks. Yeah dah, yeah yeah. But 375 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.440 it all gets couched if you look at all the 376 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.559 leaflets and the websites and the Facebook groups. It's all 377 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.799 using that household budget myth that's underpinned the last like 378 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.119 thirty years of government. There's only so much money. Governments 379 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:40.920 have to balance their books, just like you have to 380 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.440 balance your account book, Like if we spend money on 381 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.960 that zero And look, they gave half a billion to 382 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.240 that steel company to scrow over the workers. If you 383 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:50.839 if you didn't give them that money, we wouldn't need 384 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:52.519 to do this thing over here. We could fix the 385 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:54.559 potholes in the road, which is the number one reason 386 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.599 people vote for reformers potholes and declining high streets. If 387 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.440 we didn't spend this money on pylons, we could fix you. 388 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.200 We could make sure there was a bank in the 389 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.559 village or a post office that would be open. And 390 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:09.480 they've tried to use that neoliberal logic, and it's helped 391 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.680 that the government constantly talks about how much money it's 392 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.279 spending on green things, thinking this will make greenies happy, 393 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.279 environmental it's happy, and it's used trying to use that 394 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.519 against zero. So it's a kind of a long winded way, 395 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.880 but they're the two things that are operative for reform now. 396 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.880 It's important to note that it's not working because half 397 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.319 these these you know, these campaigns against wind farms. It's 398 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.200 full of Green Party members, local conservation groups and Friends 399 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.839 of the Earth members. It's like it's a bunch of 400 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.160 people who don't want if you ask them, that we 401 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.720