Speaker 1: You've created everything.
Speaker 2: Let's put a powerful being you are. You did these things,
Speaker 2: but now you're in a human body, you forget the
Speaker 2: power you have. Welcome to Metamistics, where you don't know
Speaker 2: what you don't know. My name's Jonathan, and today we
Speaker 2: have a very special guest, Eric Osborne.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the show, sir.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you, Jonathan, glad to be here.
Speaker 2: Hey, dude, I am very very inspired and impressed and
Speaker 2: just enamored by your work and everything that you've done
Speaker 2: over the course of the last twenty five plus years.
Speaker 2: It is so amazing what you've been able to do,
Speaker 2: and you've just to fill everybody in here. You basically
Speaker 2: built like a mushroom church, right, Oh that's not that's.
Speaker 1: Part of it. That's a part of it. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: done a lot over the last The church has only
Speaker 1: been what it'll be six years old in May or No,
Speaker 1: it was six years No, it it was five years
Speaker 1: old in May twenty twenty one is when it was
Speaker 1: founded on paper. It actually got going in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: right after we moved back from Jamaica, and then in
Speaker 1: twenty one it was like solidified on paper. And so
Speaker 1: we're five years into that the retreats in Jamaica I
Speaker 1: ran for seven years, and then I had a gourmet
Speaker 1: mushroom farm that I ran for nine years prior to that,
Speaker 1: or seven years prior to that after the math.
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, gourmet mushrooms. So you probably know a lot
Speaker 2: about all the different types of mushrooms and this especially
Speaker 2: the mushrooms that are in restaurants and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean that's how I got my start
Speaker 1: in this whole world. And uh well, I mean kind
Speaker 1: of like you know, Silo Sabin opened opened the door
Speaker 1: to just the world of mushrooms. I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is a whole thing, and so I
Speaker 1: started studying just mushrooms. You know. That was in ninety nine,
Speaker 1: and probably by like two thousand, I was selling wild
Speaker 1: mushrooms to local restaurants and then that just kept like
Speaker 1: growing and growing, and then by two thousand and nine
Speaker 1: I had started officially started a mushroom farm. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I want in terms of edible mushrooms, I'm
Speaker 1: what they call a pot picker, which means you just
Speaker 1: pick what goes in the food pot. I am not
Speaker 1: a taxonomist. I don't want to be a taxonomist. If
Speaker 1: anybody cares about taxonomy, then Alan Rockerfeller is the guy.
Speaker 1: He's like this, especially with Pilo Sybin. If you don't
Speaker 1: know of Alan Rockefeller, he is a fucking mushroom genius.
Speaker 1: So yes, I got his work.
Speaker 2: If you're taxonomy all right, I've always been really curious,
Speaker 2: have you, like, have you noticed a difference between you know,
Speaker 2: the the psilocybin mushrooms that grow in cowshit and the
Speaker 2: ones that are grown in the lab, like the hydroponics,
Speaker 2: And is there any difference whatsoever in experience or effect
Speaker 2: in those or is it best?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean so you know I
Speaker 1: right now, in my life, I pretty much only eat
Speaker 1: wood lovers. There's a species here in Kentucky of whatdiosisidiata
Speaker 1: that we call them ovoids. Those are what I pick
Speaker 1: and eat and mainly what I distribute to members of
Speaker 1: our church and ceremony cubensus. Is your kind of typical
Speaker 1: dung dwelling mushroom. I picked those in the wild. And
Speaker 1: the thing about wild mushrooms psilocybin wild psilocybin, particularly the
Speaker 1: dung lovers, is that they grow in open fields. And
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of UV rays, which can significantly
Speaker 1: limit their potency. Also, they are covered in pooh, so
Speaker 1: there's that. I tend to not eat wild pooh grown mushrooms,
Speaker 1: though I have and you know, I'm not knocking it,
Speaker 1: but if I can, if I can eat something a
Speaker 1: little cleaner than I'm going to the indoor cultivated mushrooms. Well,
Speaker 1: with cubensus, you know, there's been so many developments in
Speaker 1: that cultivar over the years where there's like two my
Speaker 1: last check, there was over two hundred varieties of cubensus strains,
Speaker 1: right like your Golden Teachers, your b Plush, your Hawaiians,
Speaker 1: your Hotlas or blah blah blah, your penis Indie. All
Speaker 1: that is some derivation of cubensus, even enigmas and blobs
Speaker 1: and some of these weird things that don't even look
Speaker 1: like mushrooms. There are actually mutations of cubensus, and there
Speaker 1: can be a significant difference in potency, in characteristics. You know,
Speaker 1: some of them are more visual, some of them are
Speaker 1: more kind of emotional, some of them have more of
Speaker 1: a body load. There's there are significant differences. And then
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know you're set and setting
Speaker 1: have such an impact on the you know, the subjective
Speaker 1: nature of your experience, so it can be a little
Speaker 1: hard to tell what's the mushroom, what's your emotional state,
Speaker 1: what's attributed to the environment. You know, I do generally
Speaker 1: suggest when it comes to convince convinces that people eat
Speaker 1: cultivated mushrooms because of the bacterial situation and wild harvested.
Speaker 1: But you know, I pretty much exclusively eat wild soilicybin
Speaker 1: now myself.
Speaker 3: That are like I said, these woodlovers interesting.
Speaker 2: I always found it pretty fascinating that you know, they
Speaker 2: mainly grow in the morning thanks to like the morning,
Speaker 2: do right, or do they I mean do they pop
Speaker 2: up all throughout the day or is it anything to
Speaker 2: do with it?
Speaker 1: So it definitely does. I mean, mushrooms respond to very
Speaker 1: small changes in the environment, and that means micro climates, right,
Speaker 1: So like, especially when they're in the developmental stage. I mean,
Speaker 1: like you don't see a mushroom until it is already
Speaker 1: you know, some of them, depending on the species, can
Speaker 1: be like five to fourteen days. Like the ovoids that
Speaker 1: we pick, they take quite a while to go from
Speaker 1: pinhead to primordia to fully developed. So like when I'm
Speaker 1: watching patches out there I'll see things that are pinning
Speaker 1: and forming primordia, and I know that they'll be like
Speaker 1: seven to ten days before they're fully developed. It depends
Speaker 1: a lot on temperature. The thing with the morning dew,
Speaker 1: what happens in the morning with the dew is that
Speaker 1: there is this wicking of moisture. So what mushrooms they love,
Speaker 1: most of them really appreciate fluctuating humidity, like they want
Speaker 1: it to be high humidity, like eighty percent to one
Speaker 1: hundred percent humidity. But that fluctuation in humility humidity does
Speaker 1: them a lot of good developmentally. And so you know,
Speaker 1: the morning dew is that initial like that the cool
Speaker 1: mornings with that moisture is what signals the initial growth
Speaker 1: and the pinning of the mushroom. And then as things
Speaker 1: warm up and that moisture starts to evaporate, then the
Speaker 1: fruit body will kind of continue to grow immature. So
Speaker 1: they are developing all day long, but they just seem
Speaker 1: to come up with the do because their initial response,
Speaker 1: their initial fruiting response, is due to that fluctuation in
Speaker 1: temperature and humidity.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1: You know it's a science, you know.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's so much that goes into it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the the mushrooms, I've always been really curious. I know
Speaker 2: that there are other plants that give off certain like
Speaker 2: warnings and like they have like certain survival tactics. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe they give off some some kind of poison, like
Speaker 2: like you know, poison ivy, or maybe have thorns in
Speaker 2: order to protect themselves. Do you think that the mushrooms
Speaker 2: developed like this psychoactive ingredient inside of them to ward
Speaker 2: off other people from eating them or is that something
Speaker 2: that just naturally occurs in them.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's to ward off people, because it
Speaker 1: brings us in. I mean, there is some evidence and
Speaker 1: it's been suggested that one of the evolutionary benefits of
Speaker 1: psilocybin in particular is as an insect propellant. And I
Speaker 1: will say that when I have cultivated psilocybin in the
Speaker 1: wild or outdoors, or even the wild mushrooms that are
Speaker 1: harvest they are there are very few bugs that get
Speaker 1: to them, right, like oyster mushrooms and chicken on the
Speaker 1: woods and all that other stuff. Bugs love them. It's
Speaker 1: not necessarily the case with sil sabin. I also think,
Speaker 1: you know, there's also another vein of thought that says
Speaker 1: that silicebn is antibacterial. I personally think it's both. I
Speaker 1: think that both are true, and I think there's something
Speaker 1: very interesting and worth exploring that this compound is highly
Speaker 1: psychoactive and is structurally almost identical to serotonin. So perhaps
Speaker 1: it is a twofold purpose. Perhaps it is a deterrent
Speaker 1: for bugs in bacteria, and perhaps it is a draw
Speaker 1: for humans. Perhaps it deters bugs and bacteria so that
Speaker 1: it can be preserved for humans. You know, the ovoids
Speaker 1: that I pick, they will literally dry in situ, so
Speaker 1: like very often, if the conditions are right, I can
Speaker 1: go find these mushrooms and they'll be dried out in
Speaker 1: the mulch, and I can st will harvest them, clean them,
Speaker 1: and use them right so for their entire life cycle.
Speaker 1: That's unlike I cannot think of any mushroom that I
Speaker 1: pick in all the dozens of species that I pick,
Speaker 1: that completely resist decay, especially soft bodied mushrooms. There's like
Speaker 1: rashi and some of your harder shelf fungus, turkey tail.
Speaker 1: That kind of stuff will you know, be bug resistant
Speaker 1: for almost its entire life cycle. So let's happen as
Speaker 1: one of the only, if not the only that I
Speaker 1: know of it? Does that?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Man?
Speaker 2: That is it's almost like evolved in a sense to
Speaker 2: be able to survive. Dude, I've heard of some some
Speaker 2: wild theories about you know, was it you know, asteroids
Speaker 2: or aliens or something that brought the mushroom here? Maybe
Speaker 2: it was maybe it's native you know, to Earth, which
Speaker 2: you could suggest that it, you know, probably is most
Speaker 2: likely considering the uh, the underground network and how all
Speaker 2: the plants are able to communicate through the mycelial network.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what are your theories on that.
Speaker 2: Is that just like crazy you know, psychedelic thinking, or
Speaker 2: do you think that it's more natural than anything else?
Speaker 3: Really?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, even if it does come from our space,
Speaker 1: it's still natural. It's kind of how I look at it.
Speaker 1: The question of whether or not it was let's say,
Speaker 1: manufactured or designed is I think a very interesting one.
Speaker 1: I don't have a you know, necessarily a conclusion. But
Speaker 1: you know, form follows function, right, and so if the
Speaker 1: mushroom spores are designed like there, their form survives the
Speaker 1: vacuum of space, their form survives the radiation of space, right,
Speaker 1: then that tells me that's also their function. So If
Speaker 1: these are vanguard species that are moving through interstellar space
Speaker 1: to land on you know, habitable rocks where they can
Speaker 1: germinate and form my soylium and then become the foundation
Speaker 1: of soil and other life, then that's still natural. I
Speaker 1: think it's also as we so, do I need to
Speaker 1: give a precursor or prelude here, I don't. I don't guess. So,
Speaker 1: you know part of what psilocybin also does, and this
Speaker 1: is being evidenced again. It was already very clearly documented
Speaker 1: in the forties and fifties, before you know, the drug
Speaker 1: war burned all of the research. But psilocybin absolutely is
Speaker 1: documented at facilitating extrasensory perception esp. What we're now starting
Speaker 1: to classify in terms of what Steven Greer's thing called
Speaker 1: What's you get the five CE five. They also facilitate
Speaker 1: contact with non human intelligences. And if that is part
Speaker 1: of if that's the form that provides the function, then
Speaker 1: I do want to I do want to at least
Speaker 1: ask the question, what's the intelligent design behind that?
Speaker 2: Oh man, let's go I tell you a lot, dude,
Speaker 2: I have I've had some wild experiences on a lot
Speaker 2: of psychedelics, but my most but like my most wild
Speaker 2: experience was on mushrooms, like one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: I mean, I share it.
Speaker 1: Have you ever shared it here?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, plenty of times. I took like a heroic
Speaker 2: dosage of mushrooms one night, and it was wild.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I feel like I really connected to nature. I understood
Speaker 2: the tree huggers and the hippies, like it was all
Speaker 2: coming so clear to me. And I went to try
Speaker 2: and go lay down to go to sleep. And you
Speaker 2: know how hard it is to go to sleep whenever
Speaker 2: you're tripping balls, especially whenever you take such a high
Speaker 2: dosage that you're not accustomed to, you know, And I'm
Speaker 2: already a lightweight with everything that I do, so a
Speaker 2: heroic dosage is like doubly heroic to me, you know,
Speaker 2: like that's what it feels like. And I was able
Speaker 2: to not that, I was able to the you can
Speaker 2: call it like an alien encounter, a god encounter, an
Speaker 2: angelic encounter, whatever you want to say. But out of nowhere,
Speaker 2: I started hearing the trumpets like you hear about like
Speaker 2: divine trumpets, and you know, trumpets from the angels in
Speaker 2: heaven or what have you. And I didn't grow up
Speaker 2: religious like that is not something that I was ever
Speaker 2: accustomed to. But I heard that there was essentially like
Speaker 2: this voice if a trumpet could talk, That's what it
Speaker 2: felt like. And it was announcing itself as eloheem, but
Speaker 2: it was like elohem eloheim. And it was the craziest
Speaker 2: fucking thing. And I knew that I could like, uh,
Speaker 2: talk back with it, like I could ask it questions
Speaker 2: and all of this. I was curious, like, is this
Speaker 2: happening outside of my Like am I hearing this from somewhere?
Speaker 2: Or is it happening within me? That's such a weird
Speaker 2: thing to think, because you know all the thoughts that
Speaker 2: you ever have, you know that that's coming from inside
Speaker 2: your mind. You're never gonna think that your thought is
Speaker 2: coming from outside, right.
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure about that. I don't know how
Speaker 1: I agree with that anywhere.
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes sometimes, at least early on my journey,
Speaker 2: that's what I always thought anyway, right.
Speaker 1: Right, It's the standard kind of operation, right that, oh,
Speaker 1: we think thoughts. But I've come to think that actually
Speaker 1: maybe we're receiving thoughts.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I mean, look to the lay person who has
Speaker 2: never taken like a like a crazy dosage like that.
Speaker 2: It's a fucking trippy experience, right, It's hard to discern
Speaker 2: where is this coming from?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And so I realized that I was able to ask
Speaker 2: it questions, and I mean the deepest questions ever. Like
Speaker 2: the questions and answers of that conversation were so deep
Speaker 2: that I have a hard time remembering what they were.
Speaker 2: Like it was on such a deep philosophical, spiritual level
Speaker 2: that every single time I asked a question, before I
Speaker 2: was even done asking the question, the answer was already
Speaker 2: coming to me, like I didn't even finish the question.
Speaker 2: Now I'm not I'm not asking these questions out loud,
Speaker 2: like I'm asking them in my mind.
Speaker 3: So even before they were able to form.
Speaker 2: Themselves as questions in my mind, the answer was coming
Speaker 2: to me like before I could even finish it. And
Speaker 2: it was very profound. And I woke up the next
Speaker 2: day and I was like, what is this? And and
Speaker 2: I remember saying, like, what was that that word that
Speaker 2: I kept on here in last night?
Speaker 3: And it was elohem.
Speaker 2: Now remind you, like I never heard of even the
Speaker 2: word eloheim in my life, Like I never heard of that,
Speaker 2: And honestly, I thought that it was Eloheim, like talking
Speaker 2: about Norse mythology with Hellheim and all the different hymes
Speaker 2: of the you know, the nine realms or whatever, and
Speaker 2: and but no, and so I looked it up and
Speaker 2: Elohem is like, you know, some people say it's angels,
Speaker 2: some people say it's the collection of gods or God.
Speaker 2: And I thought, oh my god, like, how is that possible?
Speaker 2: Like me, like, I've heard of other people experiencing you know,
Speaker 2: like aliens and gods and angels and you know, experiences
Speaker 2: with past loved ones and having near death experiences and
Speaker 2: all this other fun jazz. Never thought that that would
Speaker 2: ever happened to me. Never, right, Like, it's until it
Speaker 2: happens to you. It's almost hard to believe whenever somebody
Speaker 2: else says it, you know, and then it happens, and
Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, Like these people are not crazy,
Speaker 2: you know, not that I ever thought that they were crazy.
Speaker 2: It was just hard to imagine it actually happening, you know.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, dude, that was That was my craziest experience.
Speaker 2: And I mean, I'll never forget it, like it's it
Speaker 2: was just something that imprinted itself upon my consciousness forever.
Speaker 1: That's a good one. That's a good one. It highlights
Speaker 1: a lot, you know. I mean, one of one of
Speaker 1: the biggest transitions that I've had over the years in
Speaker 1: working with mushrooms is moving from the skeptical, rational based
Speaker 1: mindset that this is all some kind of psychological debris
Speaker 1: that's processing in my mind, to the question of are
Speaker 1: there intelligences that are communicating with me? To finally the
Speaker 1: acceptance of yeah, not only that, but there is an
Speaker 1: entire ecosystem of spiritual beings metaphysical beings that are around us,
Speaker 1: probably all the time, probably right now. Probably just by
Speaker 1: talking about them, they become aware and they come and
Speaker 1: they become closer to us, you know. That's and that
Speaker 1: then it forces me to reconsider a lot of what
Speaker 1: I was taught growing up in my religious upbringing, because
Speaker 1: I was brought up Catholic, and you know, there was
Speaker 1: all the baggage that goes with that. But Catholicism and
Speaker 1: every religion, you know, has a mystical branch, right, So
Speaker 1: there's mystical Catholicism, there is mystical Judaism, there is mystical Islam,
Speaker 1: and then there are the dogmatic versions that are just
Speaker 1: like you follow fucking rules or you go to hell.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, right exactly.
Speaker 1: And so it's it's been a bit of a reconcil
Speaker 1: process for me. And really the thing that advanced that
Speaker 1: was when I started doing group work. For a long time,
Speaker 1: all of my psychedelic work was just either me alone
Speaker 1: or me with a buddy. And you know, you have
Speaker 1: these experiences within your own self, and they're very easy
Speaker 1: to dismiss. For one, they're, like you said, they're so
Speaker 1: powerful that they're easy to forget, right, So you're only
Speaker 1: kind of hanging on to glimpses of them. And if
Speaker 1: you're if you're with another person, then maybe things get weird,
Speaker 1: but not not usually is there something that's like, uh,
Speaker 1: we just got off the reality bus, you know, Like
Speaker 1: but when I started doing the group ceremonies in Jamaica,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I specialized in high dose experiences,
Speaker 1: you know, five to fifteen grams of groups of ten
Speaker 1: to twenty people, and you do that up with any
Speaker 1: kind of regularity. We were running, we were doing three
Speaker 1: retreats a week, two weeks a month, and I saw
Speaker 1: paranormal psychic phenomena that just there was no way of
Speaker 1: explaining myself around it, you know. It just this is
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing and other people having these shared experiences,
Speaker 1: and then you corroborate and you're like, Okay, I've gotta
Speaker 1: I've got to like update my map on reality here.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, dude.
Speaker 2: Yeah, reality is constantly shifting the more you like uncover it.
Speaker 2: And I think that that's that's part of the beauty
Speaker 2: of life in general, because it really like like life
Speaker 2: can really be whatever you want it to be, and
Speaker 2: even even even the things you don't want it to be,
Speaker 2: if you believe it to be that then it almost
Speaker 2: is that it's so weird that reality is almost like reality.
Speaker 2: The way that I've began to understand it is that
Speaker 2: reality is essentially a projection from our inner world, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's a bit of a brain fuck because now
Speaker 2: it causes you to, you know, be be more aware
Speaker 2: of the thoughts that you have and be aware of
Speaker 2: the thought processes that you have. Otherwise they will what
Speaker 2: we they'll do what we call manifest in reality. But
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily even manifesting. It's just projecting from your
Speaker 2: inner reality. Is the way that I've begun to understand it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I saw that very clearly with my arrest.
Speaker 1: You know, I spent what was it like twenty twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: I guess is when I started selling mushrooms on the underground,
Speaker 1: and then in twenty fifteen we were arrested. And I mean,
Speaker 1: it's hard to not be paranoid when you're, you know,
Speaker 1: slinging shrooms illegally. And the night that led to our arrest,
Speaker 1: it was like, as I saw all the things unfolding,
Speaker 1: I was like, it was like, this is your inner
Speaker 1: world happening, or right before you eyes, this is all
Speaker 1: the shit that you've been worried about, now here it is.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's one of the most potent
Speaker 1: things that psychedelics do. And we're not yet having that
Speaker 1: conversation much around psychedelics, but there are powerful tools not
Speaker 1: only for this concept of manifestation, but for getting a
Speaker 1: grip on what it is that we're manifesting, understanding why
Speaker 1: your life is so blessed, or why it's a shit show,
Speaker 1: or why it is what it is, because then you
Speaker 1: see like, oh, whoa, this is my inner world that's
Speaker 1: staring back at me, looking like the X of the
Speaker 1: outer world.
Speaker 3: Dude.
Speaker 2: It is such a trip and dude, this is literally
Speaker 2: like what helped inspire this podcast in general was trying
Speaker 2: to understand the deeper mysteries of excus you know, Like
Speaker 2: I think that there's too many people that just take
Speaker 2: somebody else's word for what this reality is without experiencing
Speaker 2: it themselves, and that is such I believe it is
Speaker 2: such a disservice to whatever you want to call it,
Speaker 2: yourself or God or the universe. Like I think that
Speaker 2: in order to understand the world, like people, you know,
Speaker 2: they want to understand history, they want to understand philosophy,
Speaker 2: they want to understand science, they want to understand mathematics
Speaker 2: and all of this other stuff, the best way to
Speaker 2: understand the nature of your reality is to go in.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what the mushrooms will definitely make you do.
Speaker 2: Like there is no escaping that, amen.
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the premise of the book that
Speaker 1: I'm writing right now, I am. I expect to be
Speaker 1: publishing it in September, mid to late September. It's called
Speaker 1: the Psychedlic Reformation, and that is the entire premises that
Speaker 1: we while the science is great, psychedelic therapy is right.
Speaker 1: Ultimately what this work is all about, is your connection
Speaker 1: with the ineffable, the mystery, and that all of that
Speaker 1: external deliberating over what it is and what they do.
Speaker 1: Like that's just fun, but it's kind of mental masturbation.
Speaker 1: Go ahead and like make love with the divine, merge
Speaker 1: with the infinite by going into yourself and exploring and
Speaker 1: coming out with your own answers rather than taking someone
Speaker 1: else's trip report as like your basis for understanding reality.
Speaker 1: And when I say trip report, I mean like the
Speaker 1: science like this has the potential to get criticized. I'm
Speaker 1: not against science. Science is incredible. Like we're here on
Speaker 1: computers talking to each other from across the country on
Speaker 1: microphones and like this is amazing. I love it. I
Speaker 1: fucking love technology. I'm not shitting on AI. I think
Speaker 1: AI is helping me so much every day. And like
Speaker 1: there is a world of mystery that can never be
Speaker 1: understood in a ones and zeros that can never be
Speaker 1: put into words, and that is probably the most important
Speaker 1: aspect of life.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is. The ineffable is exactly right. And science.
Speaker 2: I think that there are people that have almost turned
Speaker 2: science into religion and say, well, there's only scientific proof
Speaker 2: that this is that and almost worshiping it as if
Speaker 2: God has pronounced it right. And it's crazy because science
Speaker 2: typically only dives into Sorry, there's somebody cutting grass right
Speaker 2: outside of my window, so that's lovely. But from what
Speaker 2: I've been able to find is that science deals mainly
Speaker 2: in the material physical world, right, Like it completely almost
Speaker 2: like forgets that there is a whole other part of
Speaker 2: this experience.
Speaker 1: Ignores it. It ignores that there's a whole other part,
Speaker 1: right Like if you can't count it, then it doesn't count.
Speaker 1: Like that's just false premise from the get you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, what you're talking about is what I understand
Speaker 1: as scientism, right This this belief that this these slogans
Speaker 1: trust the science like no science, real science doesn't trust itself.
Speaker 1: That is what science is. Science is not trying to
Speaker 1: prove itself right. It's trying to prove itself wrong. You
Speaker 1: have theories and you test them over and over and over,
Speaker 1: trying to prove your theory wrong. That is the essence
Speaker 1: of good science, which is what we meant we're missing
Speaker 1: out on, you know, Like there's a I have a
Speaker 1: great amount of respect for this individual, and I'm still
Speaker 1: going to criticize because or I'm going to comment on it.
Speaker 1: But Robin Carhart Haris is one of the leading psychedelic
Speaker 1: researchers right is over with the Imperial College London. He's
Speaker 1: been doing fantastic work helping him to bring brain science
Speaker 1: around psychedelics to the public for probably ten or twenty
Speaker 1: years now. He just published a book called How Psychedelics Work. And,
Speaker 1: like the title itself, is like a disservice because we
Speaker 1: don't even know how the brain works, and you're gonna
Speaker 1: tell me that we're gonna talk about how psychedelics work.
Speaker 1: I mean, again, I love the work, but that is
Speaker 1: a perspective of scientism that the current science is the
Speaker 1: be all, end all truth. This is, no, we don't
Speaker 1: know how psychedelics work. We have a very limited understanding
Speaker 1: of the thing that they're working on. We actually beyond that.
Speaker 1: We think that psychedelics are working on the brain, and
Speaker 1: that's just part of what they're working on. We have
Speaker 1: serotonin receptors all over our body. We have this energetic
Speaker 1: field that is more a part of who we are
Speaker 1: than our physical body, and that is being impacted by psychedelics.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I love it and I laugh at it.
Speaker 2: All at the same time, Oh dude, and it's it's wild.
Speaker 2: Like the people who you know, and I used to
Speaker 2: have a real hard bone to pick. I still kind
Speaker 2: of do with the people that I don't even like
Speaker 2: to use the word atheistic because I don't believe in
Speaker 2: God as a separate entity, Like I believe that it's
Speaker 2: all one giant thing and it is itself, is experiencing
Speaker 2: what it's like to be each individual in each blade
Speaker 2: of grass, each mushroom. That's kind of, you know, my
Speaker 2: pantheistic view on the nature of reality. But I feel
Speaker 2: like there are there are people out there that just
Speaker 2: don't like they just completely dismiss everything that is mystical,
Speaker 2: everything that is like magical, you know, they call things
Speaker 2: coincidences instead of synchronicities. They say, oh, well, that was
Speaker 2: just a one off kind of thing, and that wasn't
Speaker 2: really that special, even though a lot of the synchronicities
Speaker 2: that happen typically in your life are damn near mathematically
Speaker 2: impossible to happen, right right, I mean, certain things are
Speaker 2: just there's I mean, I guess in in an infinite universe,
Speaker 2: all things are possible, but it's the timing that really
Speaker 2: makes them special.
Speaker 1: Right, and that the timing and the personal ability, like
Speaker 1: when these things happen, and you know, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: try to rack my brain through different things. There's so
Speaker 1: many things that have happened to me that have been
Speaker 1: hyper specific to me in the circumstance I was in
Speaker 1: the timing of it all. And you can look at
Speaker 1: that and say that it's some kind of pattern recognition
Speaker 1: or that we're seeing we want to what we want
Speaker 1: to see. But when you there, there are numerous instances
Speaker 1: that are just they're so from out of nowhere. I'll
Speaker 1: share one real quick that that is it was one
Speaker 1: of my profound iburban experiences popped in my head. So
Speaker 1: we're sitting in a we did a ceremony in Jamaica.
Speaker 1: We had I don't know, fifteen or twenty people down there,
Speaker 1: and there was a guy there who his brother had
Speaker 1: taken his own life. This guy was probably in his
Speaker 1: late sixties or so. His brother was ten years younger
Speaker 1: than him and had just recently taken his own life
Speaker 1: and he came to Jamaica because he wanted to kind
Speaker 1: of process this trauma, right, And so he gets down
Speaker 1: there and this guy was a staunch materialist who's an atheist.
Speaker 1: No God, no nothing, just ones and zeros. But his
Speaker 1: deceased brother's wife widow was a very spiritual person, and
Speaker 1: she used to tell this guy, we'll call him Jerry.
Speaker 1: I forget his name, little call him Jerry. She told
Speaker 1: Jerry that whenever she saw a hummingbird that she thought
Speaker 1: it was her ex husband or her deceased husband coming
Speaker 1: to visit her. And Jerry was like, aye, bullshit. You know,
Speaker 1: I know she wants that to be the case, but
Speaker 1: it's just like, come on, it's just like you're just
Speaker 1: wishful thinking here. And so he goes into this mushroom,
Speaker 1: his third mushroom ceremony, and he feels like his brother
Speaker 1: is there with him. Okay, he doesn't say this the
Speaker 1: day of. We go back into the integration the next
Speaker 1: day and we're all sitting in this big cabana, twenty
Speaker 1: participants in seven SpaceHolders. There are like twenty seven people
Speaker 1: of us there and this big circular cabana. We're all
Speaker 1: sitting in a circle doing our integration conversation and he's
Speaker 1: talking about how, yeah, you know, yesterday I felt like
Speaker 1: my brother was there for a little bit, and I
Speaker 1: was just like, oh, this is just my memory of him.
Speaker 1: And so he started talking about it and dismissing it.
Speaker 1: As he was talking about it. As he was talking
Speaker 1: about it, a hummingbird flew under the cabana, flew right
Speaker 1: up to his face. And I've never seen this in
Speaker 1: my entire life, and I'll probably never see it again.
Speaker 1: This hummingbird flew the entire circle, face to face with
Speaker 1: every fucking person there until it got back to him,
Speaker 1: and then it flew off. What Yeah, And he was
Speaker 1: that And it wasn't until then that he told us, gosh,
Speaker 1: I got chills now. It wasn't until then after that
Speaker 1: happened that he said, Wow, my sister you know, has
Speaker 1: said that she thinks that when she sees hummingbirds it's her.
Speaker 1: And everybody's like Jerry, He's like, oh well, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, dude, how much does it? How much
Speaker 1: more can it smack you in the face?
Speaker 3: Rightly?
Speaker 1: And then like literally? And the thing that to me
Speaker 1: that is really profound about that about these things, these synchronicities,
Speaker 1: when they happen, it's that, yes, in that immediate time
Speaker 1: and space, the things like everything came together at the
Speaker 1: right time. But to even consider for a moment. All
Speaker 1: of the things that had to line up for the
Speaker 1: past two days, two weeks, two twenty years, two hundred
Speaker 1: all the things throughout history that have lined up for
Speaker 1: that exact moment to happen when it did, is a
Speaker 1: little overwhelming at times to think about. So like, we
Speaker 1: live in this incredible mystery that we will never get
Speaker 1: to fully understand, but we can so fully experience if
Speaker 1: we will just give ourselves over to it and stop
Speaker 1: that doubt. That is the core of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Oh man, what a fascinating story. I love whenever stuff
Speaker 2: like that happens, especially to people that think it's all
Speaker 2: you know, gayzy, it's not real, right, and then they
Speaker 2: experience it and it literally causes a entire rewire of
Speaker 2: their thought process, Like, all right, that was really strange
Speaker 2: that that happened, and it was too personal just to
Speaker 2: write it off and say that it was just a
Speaker 2: random thing to happen because hummingbirds going around in a circle, Like,
Speaker 2: what are the odds of that ever happening? Especially when
Speaker 2: we said at that moment, that is insane.
Speaker 1: Like we all sat there just like is this really happening,
Speaker 1: looking at each other, just like what, Yeah, And I've
Speaker 1: seen so many things like that. I mean, mushrooms just
Speaker 1: absolutely what's this is why I understand them as a
Speaker 1: sacrament at this point, because they open us up to
Speaker 1: this other world. There is another world, There are other
Speaker 1: worlds that are interfacing with ours, and this gift of
Speaker 1: nature or gift of the gods or however it got
Speaker 1: to be here is actually an interface for us.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's so weird too because it's it It doesn't
Speaker 2: even seem foreign. It seems like something that you know,
Speaker 2: we remember, but we don't know how or why we
Speaker 2: remember it, you know. And that's that's the thing that
Speaker 2: really will get you. You know, like if it is
Speaker 2: something that has never happened and you've never experienced it,
Speaker 2: whether here or you know, on the astral plane or
Speaker 2: as a spirit or whatever. If it's something that you've
Speaker 2: literally never experienced, then why does it feel that it
Speaker 2: resonates at such a deep level and that it causes
Speaker 2: you to unfold and you know, open up your mind
Speaker 2: in such a deeper way to in order to help
Speaker 2: you like understand everything else that's going on around here.
Speaker 2: Like it causes you some wild some wild thought processes.
Speaker 2: And I'll give you an example. So this wasn't on
Speaker 2: psychedelics or anything like that. But I used to have
Speaker 2: a conspiracy podcast and I did it for five years.
Speaker 3: It was called It's Still Going.
Speaker 2: It's called the Cult of Conspiracy Podcast, and we talked
Speaker 2: about a bevy of conspiracies.
Speaker 3: It was always wild.
Speaker 2: But my co host is like basically a fundamentalist Christian, right,
Speaker 2: and so it was always interesting to have that back
Speaker 2: and forth, you know, kind of like the mystical mind
Speaker 2: versus the Christian you know, dogmatic mind.
Speaker 3: And I don't hate on them for it.
Speaker 2: You know, we would have our battles back and forth,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times anytime I started talking about
Speaker 2: anything spiritual or anything extra dimensional or anything like that,
Speaker 2: it was just it would either go in one ear
Speaker 2: and out the other, or it would cause some kind
Speaker 2: of disturbance and then I would be called crazy, right,
Speaker 2: And so I I really I always tried to prove
Speaker 2: to him that, like, there is another layer that is
Speaker 2: stacked up on top of reality. And some people call
Speaker 2: them spirits, some people call them ancestors, some people call
Speaker 2: them gods, some people call them aliens.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's all. Maybe it's everything.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just another realm of consciousness that hasn't descended
Speaker 2: into the physical plane, right, it could be something like that.
Speaker 3: And and he.
Speaker 2: Was just like, I don't know, dude, I don't know.
Speaker 2: And so there was one time and he had to go.
Speaker 2: So he does the night fighting, like you know, dressing
Speaker 2: up and like knight armor and you know, swords and
Speaker 2: they're blunted.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and but it's like real battering, like it's not
Speaker 2: you know, the fake stuff, and dude, it's wild. It's
Speaker 2: I mean, the swords aren't allowed to be sharp. It's
Speaker 2: more just for the battering, right, and like like if
Speaker 2: you fall down then you're out. It's one of those
Speaker 2: things to where if you fall down to your knees
Speaker 2: then you're done. So all right, dude, it's fucking insane.
Speaker 2: It is insane. And I love going to those. They're awesome,
Speaker 2: especially whenever they got like the the I don't know
Speaker 2: what they're called. Basically like big groups will get into
Speaker 2: this ring together, right, and and it's like teams, so
Speaker 2: you're going after the other team and you're just trying
Speaker 2: to batter them and beat the ever living ship out
Speaker 2: of them, like with with axes and pots and pans
Speaker 2: and swords and literally, I mean, and you're wearing armor,
Speaker 2: but you're still feeling the shock of that, like you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's something more to it. But so anyway, we
Speaker 2: were going up to one of his events, and I
Speaker 2: think that it was up in like like South Carolina,
Speaker 2: I want to say, somewhere northern. We're well, not that,
Speaker 2: not South Carolina's northern, but it's north from us. We're
Speaker 2: from Louisiana. So we are we're getting ready to go
Speaker 2: up to this event. And the event is gonna be
Speaker 2: held later on in the day, like around five or
Speaker 2: seven or something like that. And so since it was
Speaker 2: gonna be a long drive, we decided to leave at
Speaker 2: like three or four in the morning to make that
Speaker 2: drive up to South Carolina. And and so there's nobody
Speaker 2: on the road like around three or four in the morning,
Speaker 2: you know, on like on really any night, you know,
Speaker 2: And so we decided we were gonna leave around that time.
Speaker 2: And so we stopped over at this Circle K gas station,
Speaker 2: and we hadn't gone to sleep. We were just gonna
Speaker 2: pull an all night or drink some energy drinks and
Speaker 2: fucking hustle it out right and and we went into
Speaker 2: this this circle K gas station, circle K seven to
Speaker 2: eleven something like that, and I was telling him. I
Speaker 2: was like, dude, I'm telling you, there's this one number
Speaker 2: that just follows me everywhere, like everywhere I look. It
Speaker 2: is the craziest thing. And I've always been, you know,
Speaker 2: real curious about what the meaning of it was, you know,
Speaker 2: because you know, could it just be some kind of
Speaker 2: paradolia or my mind remembering patterns and it causes some
Speaker 2: kind of trigger psychologically or whatever. I've always been able to, like,
Speaker 2: I've always tried to understand what all that means. And
Speaker 2: it's literally followed me around since I was like fourteen
Speaker 2: years old, Like it's crazy, and that number is nine
Speaker 2: twenty two, right, and I've always tried to figure out
Speaker 2: what the hell that means. And so anyway, I'm telling
Speaker 2: him about this, and he's like, oh, yeah, whatever. You know,
Speaker 2: he don't believe in any of that numerology or any
Speaker 2: of that you know, spiritual kind of nonsense as he
Speaker 2: would call it. And so I'm telling him about this
Speaker 2: in this gas station as we're getting ready to get
Speaker 2: back out on the road, and and I'm like, dude,
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, it's fucking following me everywhere. And I'll
Speaker 2: tell you. I was like, I told him, I was like,
Speaker 2: I guarantee you, we will see that number on a
Speaker 2: license plate, on a billboard something like that on this trip.
Speaker 2: I guarantee you, and we'll probably see it multiple times.
Speaker 3: I told him that.
Speaker 2: He was like, Okay, well whatever. He was kind of
Speaker 2: just dismissing it. And so we get on the road
Speaker 2: and you know, at three or four in the morning,
Speaker 2: there's hardly any cars on the road, but there was
Speaker 2: one car on the road, one car on the road
Speaker 2: as soon as we got on the interstate, and the
Speaker 2: license plate said nine to twenty two. The first car,
Speaker 2: the only car on the entire interstate was nine to
Speaker 2: twenty two. And I told him, I was like, dude,
Speaker 2: wasn't I just telling you? I literally just told him
Speaker 2: this five minutes ago, and here it is. And so,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it opened him up, but
Speaker 2: he probably just saw it as a weird coincidence or
Speaker 2: a weird one off. But I'm like, man, how many
Speaker 2: mystical you know, mathematically damn near impossible things need to
Speaker 2: happen to you in order for you to wake up
Speaker 2: that there's some other like weird spiritual layer that is
Speaker 2: laid on top of us.
Speaker 3: You know, It's it's strange.
Speaker 2: Whenever it's like how much needs to happen in order
Speaker 2: people to wake up.
Speaker 1: It's ironic that he would be a religious person and
Speaker 1: not able to see that, right, Like, similar to scientism,
Speaker 1: religion can prevent us from actually seeing the spirit world
Speaker 1: the dogma of religion. So I think that's very interesting,
Speaker 1: and I have I have a number of friends that
Speaker 1: are similar. You know, it's like, I don't know, Bud,
Speaker 1: I can't If you can't see it, I sure as
Speaker 1: hell can show you at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And so I've I've actually gotten to this
Speaker 2: place where I'm not even necessarily trying to argue or
Speaker 2: battle or do anything like that anymore. With the people
Speaker 2: who are dogmatic, it's like, look, I mean, you probably
Speaker 2: chose this this life in the first place.
Speaker 3: Maybe you needed to learn it's hard less. Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, well it's all in God's plan or whatever. Okay,
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, in my favorite one of my
Speaker 2: favorite quotes is my Carl Jung, and he said, uh,
Speaker 2: until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your
Speaker 2: life and you'll call it fate, right, And I believe
Speaker 2: that that so many people are living by that and
Speaker 2: allowing life to happen to them, or not even necessarily
Speaker 2: allowing it, but almost to their own detriment, at the
Speaker 2: will of God or at the will of life. And
Speaker 2: they don't understand that you can work with it, that
Speaker 2: it's it's something, that it is a it is a
Speaker 2: team effort.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It feels like yes, I mean that's.
Speaker 1: It's all buried in the in their Bible as well,
Speaker 1: you know, like this whole like when Moses meets the
Speaker 1: burning Bush, which you know, the d mt Acacia, But
Speaker 1: you know he says, I am that I am like
Speaker 1: your I am is the most powerful co creative consciousness.
Speaker 1: Whatever we say I am to is what we are becoming.
Speaker 1: It's and it's all right there. So you know, I've
Speaker 1: recently been studying Kabbalah because it is this mystical interpretation
Speaker 1: of the Bible, which for a long time I just
Speaker 1: completely abandoned the Bible. I studied it deeply for many years,
Speaker 1: and then I just completely left it behind. And now
Speaker 1: I've been revisiting it through this lens, and there's an
Speaker 1: incredible amount of mysticism that is like hidden in plain
Speaker 1: sight within popular religion. So it's fascinating to me how
Speaker 1: it's h how many people can like go to church
Speaker 1: and show up and go through the motions, like even
Speaker 1: like like if Jesus, if the story of Jesus isn't
Speaker 1: a story of mystical, otherworldly interdimensional stuff that I you
Speaker 1: know what else is Like this dude comes back from
Speaker 1: the dead and you can put your fingers in his
Speaker 1: hands or whatever, like he turned you know, three fish
Speaker 1: into a thousand and all this like and so like
Speaker 1: and then he even says, like the things that I
Speaker 1: can do, you can do even greater.
Speaker 3: And then yeah, so anyway, well that's not what he meant.
Speaker 3: He was just being nice.
Speaker 1: It was a metaphor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2: I always I always love whenever people say that, well
Speaker 2: that's a metaphor. But like the building of the arc
Speaker 2: and two of every animal, isn't you know. It's like
Speaker 2: the craziest things.
Speaker 1: Though, that they're they're showing this boat in Mount uh
Speaker 1: error Rat. There's this they've they have found this shell
Speaker 1: of a boat on the mountain. That's like they've done
Speaker 1: the the scans of it where you can see like
Speaker 1: rooms and everything in it and even that, Like, so
Speaker 1: the deal with that, It's like that story did not
Speaker 1: start in the Bible. That story goes back to the
Speaker 1: epic of Gilgamish and back into the Sumerian tales. So
Speaker 1: like this idea that the Bible is the be the
Speaker 1: beginning of our story, when it is, we can see
Speaker 1: with documented that these stories were lifted from a culture
Speaker 1: long before the Bible existed.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the Bible is definitely an amalgamation of so
Speaker 2: many different you know, religious and spiritual histories. And dude,
Speaker 2: even you were talking about the you know, the burning
Speaker 2: bush with the acacia and stuff like that. I mean
Speaker 2: to go along with that, how about the Arc of
Speaker 2: the Covenant. Arc of Arc of the Covenant is built
Speaker 2: entirely of acacia.
Speaker 1: Wood, acacia would and there's mushrooms inside of it. You
Speaker 1: know that the story, So the story of the Arc
Speaker 1: of the Cone. So you know, I got really deeply
Speaker 1: involved in Rosta. That's how I actually got to Jamaica
Speaker 1: as I was when I left Catholic Church. I got
Speaker 1: got deep into Rosta.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw your dreads due that was awesome.
Speaker 1: And so anyway, there's like at the same time when
Speaker 1: I was getting into Rasta and studying the Bible, was
Speaker 1: also in ninety nine two thousand and when I was
Speaker 1: getting deep into mushrooms, and I remember reading about like
Speaker 1: all these different herbs and things that were mentioned in
Speaker 1: the Bible. And I asked this biblical scholar one time
Speaker 1: because I was so deep in mushrooms, it's like, so
Speaker 1: if if all these plants are in the Bible, and
Speaker 1: mushrooms are obviously really important, like they're an important food source,
Speaker 1: they're psychedelic there, medicinal, like there's I said, we're mushrooms
Speaker 1: in the Bible, and this person laughed at me, and
Speaker 1: then so like, I don't know, it's right around the
Speaker 1: same time, it's all talking about synchronicity, all having very
Speaker 1: much in close succession where I was reading the story
Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy of the Israelites lost in the wilderness, right,
Speaker 1: and so they're out in the wilderness and you even
Speaker 1: already kind of give a prelude to this. It says
Speaker 1: that when they were in the wilderness and they're you know,
Speaker 1: giving Moses grief for taking them out in the wilderness,
Speaker 1: and you know, Moses had come from this Egyptian high
Speaker 1: priest culture. The Egyptian high priests, we know, had knowledge
Speaker 1: of mushrooms. There's higher gloves. It's all you know. It's
Speaker 1: depicted there. And so Moses out in the wilderness with him,
Speaker 1: and he says, you know, y'all, hill out tomorrow there
Speaker 1: will be bread for you to eat. Tonight they'll be quail.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow it'll be bread. So apparently the story says the
Speaker 1: quail came down that night, and the next morning they
Speaker 1: woke up and there were white loaves all around the ground, right,
Speaker 1: And it says that these white loaves came with the
Speaker 1: dew when they withered in the sun, and they were
Speaker 1: instructed to collect no more than they could eat for
Speaker 1: the day, except for on the eve of the sabbath.
Speaker 1: They could collect enough to consume on the sabbath. But
Speaker 1: in order to store them they had to slice them
Speaker 1: and dry them or parboil them. And if they did
Speaker 1: not do that, then they bread worms and stank. These
Speaker 1: these loaves of bread bread worms and stink. Okay, So
Speaker 1: they came with the dew they withered in the sun,
Speaker 1: got if they sliced them and dried them, were parboiled them,
Speaker 1: then they were safe to eat, but if they didn't
Speaker 1: then they would erupt in maggots. At the same time,
Speaker 1: I just started getting into wild mushroom hunting, and you
Speaker 1: know rostas, so I smoke them out of weed. And
Speaker 1: so I go out one day and I pick a
Speaker 1: bunch of mushrooms. I put them on my table. I
Speaker 1: got like puffball mushrooms and all kinds of mushrooms, leave
Speaker 1: them on the table, smoke a big joint, fall asleep
Speaker 1: on my couch. Wake up the next morning and these
Speaker 1: mushrooms on my table had erupted in maggots. Win I
Speaker 1: was like, oh shit. They bread worms and stink. There
Speaker 1: are fly eggs inside the mushrooms and if you don't
Speaker 1: dry them, if you leave them sitting out at room temperature,
Speaker 1: they will irrupt in maggots. And so come to find
Speaker 1: out like puffball mushrooms. You know puffball mushrooms, the little
Speaker 1: round they look like a fucking loaf of bread. They
Speaker 1: just look like a white loaf of yeast bread. They
Speaker 1: actually grow in that area. There is a variety of
Speaker 1: mushroom called the desert truffle that's actually a puffball that
Speaker 1: grows in the Sinai region and it's sold in markets
Speaker 1: over there, and so mana the word. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of there's some controversy around this, but from the Bible
Speaker 1: says they called it mana because they didn't know what
Speaker 1: it was, right. I thought all along that that meant
Speaker 1: mana meant we don't know what it is, like supposedly
Speaker 1: kangaroo in Aborigine means we don't know what to fuck
Speaker 1: this thing is, right, and so, but from what I've
Speaker 1: come to understand that the true interpretation is that the
Speaker 1: word mana is a borrowed word from Syria and culture
Speaker 1: that means mushroom or fungus. Okay, So they sliced, they
Speaker 1: were instructed to put parts of dried pieces of manna
Speaker 1: in the arc of the Covenant to remember when they
Speaker 1: were saved from the wilderness. Right. The only other place
Speaker 1: where manna is mentioned in the Bible is in Revelation.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's other places where it's mentioned, but it's
Speaker 1: always mentioned in reference to that original story, and it
Speaker 1: says in those reference points, and it says that God
Speaker 1: gave them the food of angels to eat, right, Mana
Speaker 1: being the food of angels all around the world before
Speaker 1: any any colonialism happened. Mushrooms were called the food of spirits,
Speaker 1: the food of angels, the food of gods. Even in
Speaker 1: Jamaica they called mushrooms duppy food, which means spirit food. Okay.
Speaker 1: So there's always been this tradition that mushrooms are food
Speaker 1: for spirit beings, okay, And so they called this thing Mana.
Speaker 1: And then later so then it goes talk about this
Speaker 1: this whole like references food to the angels in Revelation,
Speaker 1: it comes back and says that basically in the end
Speaker 1: times that or you know what, we that whole interpretation
Speaker 1: is fucked up. I don't believe anywhere that we're like,
Speaker 1: the revelation means the end of the world, right, revelation
Speaker 1: means the revealing.
Speaker 3: It revealed.
Speaker 1: The apocalypse means the revealing, right, which is what we're
Speaker 1: witnessing right now. And it says in there that at
Speaker 1: this time that when the King of Kings comes, that
Speaker 1: he will reveal the hidden Manna. Okay. And there's this
Speaker 1: whole whole thing about that. As I'm studying Rasta and
Speaker 1: I'm seeing this, I don't know what you know about Rosta,
Speaker 1: but like the foundation of Rosta is that there is
Speaker 1: this Ethiopian Emperor highly Selassie, which is where the Ark
Speaker 1: of the Covenants are reported to be stored. Graham Hancock
Speaker 1: did this whole thing on it. You can go check
Speaker 1: it out. It's amazing. There's this temple out in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, Ethiopia that had been tried to They've
Speaker 1: tried to invade it. The Italians tried to invade it
Speaker 1: in World War Two and could get into it. But
Speaker 1: it's supposedly where the original arc of the Covenant is
Speaker 1: and the Kings of Ethiopia who are descendants of Solomon,
Speaker 1: right there was a lineage two hundred and twenty five
Speaker 1: generations from King Solomon where him and the Queen of Ethiopia,
Speaker 1: Sheba at that time, supposedly had a child, and the
Speaker 1: Ark of the Covenant went from Solomon to Ethiopia. From
Speaker 1: that time, the kings of Ethiopia have been called the
Speaker 1: King of Kings, all the titles that the Book of
Speaker 1: Revelation talks about, and nobody really knew that until in
Speaker 1: the thirties when Hyley Selassie became King of Ethiopia and
Speaker 1: there was this kind of like the world's attention was
Speaker 1: brought to Ethiopia is a place, and so that's when
Speaker 1: we started to see in large scale that there was
Speaker 1: this tradition of a Solemnic dynasty, a dividic dynasty, in
Speaker 1: carrying the titles King of Kings, Lord of Lords, conquering
Speaker 1: the line of Judah, all the stuff that's said in
Speaker 1: the Bible. Right, Hayla Selassie is crowned Emperor of Ethiopia.
Speaker 1: He was the last emperor of Ethiopia. He is on
Speaker 1: the cover of Life magazine, of Time magazine. He's on
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine in nineteen thirty when he
Speaker 1: was crowned emperor. It's a headshot of this African emperor
Speaker 1: on Time magazine. He is called in like on the
Speaker 1: cover of the magazine it says man of the year,
Speaker 1: King of King's Lord of Lords. You can go look
Speaker 1: this picture up. It still exists, right, Wow, So nobody
Speaker 1: really talks about this, even though like that's what everybody's
Speaker 1: talking about, is like, where's the king of kings? Right
Speaker 1: within twenty years, Maria Sabina, who we were talking about
Speaker 1: before we started recording, reveals this hidden manna to the world.
Speaker 1: And now we see this revelation of knowledge that is
Speaker 1: occurring because we have access to these sacred mushrooms that
Speaker 1: were hidden for millennia.
Speaker 2: Now there is yeah, there it is. It says a
Speaker 2: right there, the King of Kings, right down there at
Speaker 2: the bottom.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: Nineteen thirty November three.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's a very interesting history. It's one
Speaker 1: that changed my entire ontology because I was brought up
Speaker 1: in a and I'm not saying I'm not saying anything
Speaker 1: other than these are the historical facts, right. But I
Speaker 1: was brought up in a eschatological Catholicism that was always
Speaker 1: waiting for the end of the world. Jesus is coming,
Speaker 1: Pack your bags, get your shit ready, It's about to
Speaker 1: go down. And like, I was raised in fear, and
Speaker 1: so when I started to see this, I was like,
Speaker 1: what the fuck a King of Kings like? And then
Speaker 1: you like, go and trace the bloodline, and then you
Speaker 1: go and read the stories of his life and how
Speaker 1: Ethiopia defended Mussoline and Rome, and you know, Rome tried
Speaker 1: to overtake Ethiopia. It's a fascinating mystical story that you
Speaker 1: brought dark of the Covenant. I couldn't help them make
Speaker 1: the connection because the mushrooms. Maria Sabina and interestingly enough,
Speaker 1: I find this interesting anyway. Maria Sabina's birthday is July
Speaker 1: twenty second, which is when we're having this Global Dose day.
Speaker 1: Hyla Selassie's birthday is July twenty third, so they're both
Speaker 1: they're both featured on global magazines. King of King's Hidden
Speaker 1: Manner revealed they both have birthdays back to back. It's
Speaker 1: it's pretty wild. It's an interesting coincidence if nothing else.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And in preparation for the show, I did a little
Speaker 2: bit of research on Maria Sabina and man, what a
Speaker 2: fascinating life that she lived. I mean it was, it
Speaker 2: was crazy. And I guess she she was no as
Speaker 2: essentially like a wise woman and or a medicine woman
Speaker 2: or a shaman, however you want to put it. But
Speaker 2: she I guess word got out because of these two
Speaker 2: dudes that went to go and they were like the
Speaker 2: first white people to go and have a ceremony with her.
Speaker 2: And supposedly it was just in that part of is
Speaker 2: it called Oxacana or something like that.
Speaker 1: Ohaka Hakka is the general region and hotl Inez is
Speaker 1: the believe the specific region where they were at the.
Speaker 3: Location got you.
Speaker 2: So he or she ended up, you know, having this
Speaker 2: ceremony with them, and then the I can't remember Gordon something,
Speaker 2: Gordon Wasson. Yeah, So Gordon Wasson went on to write
Speaker 2: like several books about her and where she lived and
Speaker 2: all this stuff and basically like out at her as
Speaker 2: far as you know, all of the ceremonies and stuff, which.
Speaker 1: She gave permission. You know, she gave him permission to
Speaker 1: document the whole thing. Now, he lied to her about
Speaker 1: his motivation for having the the ceremony, or the beleta
Speaker 1: as it was called. He told her because the cultures
Speaker 1: that worked with these, the mas Tech, are the only
Speaker 1: surviving indigenous culture that has a long standing documented practice
Speaker 1: with sacred mushrooms. There are there are kind of hints
Speaker 1: of sacred mushroom practices in Africa and around the world
Speaker 1: in pockets, but the Mastech had a very long tradition
Speaker 1: that descended from the Maya. Right. They they sheltered in
Speaker 1: Catholicism when the conky stores came in and they said,
Speaker 1: you know, these mushroom meters were talking to demons, and
Speaker 1: they you know, did everything they could to eradicate it.
Speaker 1: Some folks took that and you know buried their traditions
Speaker 1: inside the Catholic Church, which you know it fits really well.
Speaker 1: Both have the flesh of God, even even the Mayan
Speaker 1: when the conky stores came in, the Mayan were calling
Speaker 1: the mush from his tail on a coddle, which means
Speaker 1: the flesh of the of God.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So is that do you think that that is
Speaker 2: that they're that they're basically kind of connected whenever Jesus
Speaker 2: says to eat of my foot.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think, I think one hundred percent. I think
Speaker 1: all all this uh speculation that early Christianity was a
Speaker 1: mushroom fertility cult, I think there is truth in that.
Speaker 1: The I've had too many mushroom experiences that were like
Speaker 1: a carbon copy of the death and resurrection theme. So
Speaker 1: I do think that there was historical human being. My
Speaker 1: from my studies, the historical Jesus that we've been given
Speaker 1: is actually a combination of two different individuals. There were
Speaker 1: two prominent leaders during that time, one from the scenes
Speaker 1: and one from a more kind of cosmopolitan version of
Speaker 1: couplistic Judaism at that time, and that those two people
Speaker 1: have been because we have we have some very different
Speaker 1: pictures of Jesus in the New Testament as far as
Speaker 1: his personality and how he engaged and so anyway that aside,
Speaker 1: to me, it's a no brainer that the mushroom is
Speaker 1: the original communion, that it is what the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: was kind of like pointing to without pointing to, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's it is the original flesh of God. It's
Speaker 1: just it makes total sense. There's tons of historical evidence.
Speaker 1: It's been called the food of Gods, the flesh of
Speaker 1: Gods in multiple cultures around the world. And then like
Speaker 1: when you start to see there's there's even that there
Speaker 1: are in Central America, there are tabernacles where the I
Speaker 1: don't know if you know, like Catholic tabernacles will have
Speaker 1: this I figure what it's called. But this is this
Speaker 1: stand where they put a piece of the Eucharist or
Speaker 1: the Communion, right, and in this one church in Central America,
Speaker 1: there's actually a mushroom in the center of it. And
Speaker 1: so to me, it's just a no brainer that this
Speaker 1: is actually what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I one hundred percent believe that. Yeah, it makes
Speaker 2: way too much sense. What do you make just out
Speaker 2: of curiosity? So the arc of the Covenant if you
Speaker 2: read some of the biblical stories that allegedly, you know
Speaker 2: they had to put it. Whenever they put it into
Speaker 2: a temple or into a room or something like that,
Speaker 2: the priests had to wear like bells or something like that,
Speaker 2: because they're still the traditional dead.
Speaker 1: So in Ethiopia where the Ark of the Covenant is kept,
Speaker 1: and this is a document. Graham Hancock talks about this
Speaker 1: very publicly in his book and in various podcasts. It's
Speaker 1: a publicized and docum minted history of the Ethiopian Church
Speaker 1: in this temple in Ox of Ethiopia. It's a one
Speaker 1: room temple that supposedly houses the ark, the original arc
Speaker 1: of the Covenant. The monk that guards the Ark of
Speaker 1: the Covenant, he wears bells on his robes because if
Speaker 1: you hear the bell he wears bells in a rope.
Speaker 1: If you hear the bells stop, then you're supposed to
Speaker 1: pull the rope out because he's dead. Right. That monk
Speaker 1: is chosen when he was seven years old, and his
Speaker 1: life mission is to live in that room with the
Speaker 1: Ark of the Covenant. People deliver it that his food
Speaker 1: is delivered through a little slot and like it's wild
Speaker 1: and so when he dies another seven year old boy.
Speaker 1: They're always preparing children to be the next guardian, and
Speaker 1: so you can go look all this up. It's really fascinating.
Speaker 1: I think the real interesting question is like, what's really
Speaker 1: in there, what's really happening with that. So the tradition
Speaker 1: in Ethiopia, I I see this last king of Ethiopia.
Speaker 1: He is the one who ordered the building of the
Speaker 1: most recent or the current temple that the arc is in.
Speaker 1: And the reason why is supposedly it was in the
Speaker 1: basement of Saint Mary's Church, which the story is that
Speaker 1: the church itself was starting to the foundation was starting
Speaker 1: to crack because of the heat from the Ark of
Speaker 1: the Covenant, and so they had to move it into
Speaker 1: its own space because it was going to like the
Speaker 1: church was going to fall down. Between Jerusalem and Ethiopia,
Speaker 1: there is there are a number of temporary arc shelters
Speaker 1: that were built when the Ark was being carried from
Speaker 1: Jerusalem to Ethiopia. There's a whole amazing tradition of so
Speaker 1: King Solomon. The story is the King Solomon had Queen
Speaker 1: Sheba come up from Ethiopia, and when she did, he
Speaker 1: seduced her. He had this whole trick. He's like, if
Speaker 1: you take anything from my house without my permission, then
Speaker 1: I get to give you a I get to impregnate you.
Speaker 1: And she's like, of course, why would I steal any
Speaker 1: from you. I'm a queen. And so at night, when
Speaker 1: she's asleep, he goes and puts a or he feeds
Speaker 1: her a bunch of spicy food, right, and then he
Speaker 1: puts a glass of water on her bedside table while
Speaker 1: she's asleep, and she wakes up dry mouth from the
Speaker 1: spicy food and takes a drink of the water, and
Speaker 1: he's like, gotcha, And she's like, ah, damn, you're right,
Speaker 1: And so he knocks her up, and he gives her
Speaker 1: a baby, and he says to her, this is the story.
Speaker 1: It's in the keyboard of Gost. He says to her,
Speaker 1: if if you have a child from our union, then
Speaker 1: give him this ring, and when he is a grown man,
Speaker 1: send him back to me so I can know that
Speaker 1: I have a son, right, and then I'll have our
Speaker 1: kingdom will grow and so whatever. How many years later,
Speaker 1: supposedly the story goes is his son goes back up
Speaker 1: to Jerusalem wearing this ring and looking just like his dad.
Speaker 1: And when he gets there, his dad's like, oh my gosh, okay,
Speaker 1: I got a son. And while he is there in Jerusalem,
Speaker 1: the high priests of the Ark of the Covenant have
Speaker 1: a dream that the Arc is to move to Ethiopia,
Speaker 1: and so they steal it at night, they take it
Speaker 1: to Ethiopia. As whole tradition. There are temporary temples that
Speaker 1: were built between Jerusalem and Ethiopia that actually illustrate that
Speaker 1: there was some movement of something that is purported to
Speaker 1: be the Ark of the Covenant. And then now you know,
Speaker 1: you have an Ethiopia. This chapel and there were discovered
Speaker 1: in the like the early nineteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: it was discovered that there was this isolated black Jewish
Speaker 1: community there that everybody's like, how in the heck did
Speaker 1: Jews get an Ethiopia? Right, they got like the Star
Speaker 1: of David on everything, and they're very Jewish and uh.
Speaker 1: And that's the whole story, is that they were descendants
Speaker 1: of this Solomon and Sheba thing. So I don't you know,
Speaker 1: it's fascinating is that what he is actually going on there.
Speaker 3: I don't know is that the Hebrew Israelites is.
Speaker 1: That the Hebrew Israelites.
Speaker 2: I the videos of people saying that we're the original
Speaker 2: Hebrew Israel.
Speaker 1: That that was from a supposedly a split from what
Speaker 1: I understand now, I'm like, I'm not a scholar on
Speaker 1: this perform I understand that was from the split between
Speaker 1: Judea and Israel somewhere at a different point in time.
Speaker 1: These Ethiopian Jews were called the Palashes. If you look
Speaker 1: that word up f A l A s h A
Speaker 1: you'll come across like like people were just like, how
Speaker 1: did this happen? And then they started they found this
Speaker 1: book that's in the Ethiopian Bible called the Cubrant. It's
Speaker 1: not the Bible, it's a separate book that's in the
Speaker 1: Ethiopian tradition called the Kuburan the Gost, which means the
Speaker 1: Glory of the Kings, and it is their story of
Speaker 1: how Ethiopia got Jewish people and became in possession of
Speaker 1: the Arc of the Covenant.
Speaker 3: Yeah, here you go, the secret Jews of Ethiopia. How
Speaker 3: about that? Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Star David and Yeah, everybody's.
Speaker 2: Like, what that's wild? Oh my god, dude, there's just
Speaker 2: so much history we just don't know. I've never heard
Speaker 2: that before so much, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what is like? What is if? If that
Speaker 1: thing is so powerful? Why what is actually Because I
Speaker 1: don't like as much as many you know, I'll say miracles.
Speaker 1: I've seen things that I can't explain. I've seen healing,
Speaker 1: I've seen whatever. I've seen all kinds of stuff. But
Speaker 1: there's all I believe that there's always some kind of
Speaker 1: grounded explanation like we may not, we may not get
Speaker 1: to that understanding, but there is something there. And so
Speaker 1: like I have, I have sat with that a lot.
Speaker 1: What is it that is actually the power in that thing?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean if you've ever looked into, uh, like
Speaker 2: the Lesser Keys of Solomon and so that's I think
Speaker 2: that there's probably something to do with that that maybe
Speaker 2: there was some kind of a solomonic seal or some
Speaker 2: kind of some kind of like spell that maybe could
Speaker 2: be if you touch this thing, then you'll die. I
Speaker 2: don't know, I have no idea, but it is interesting
Speaker 2: because it's said that you know, it's like it's it's
Speaker 2: fully built out of acacia wood, but then it's coded
Speaker 2: in gold, and you're saying that there's you know, a
Speaker 2: mushroom or mushrooms inside it. I don't see how touching
Speaker 2: any of that would cause death.
Speaker 1: No, you know, there's the disposally there are there is
Speaker 1: a piece of some pieces of the manna that they
Speaker 1: ate in the wilderness. There is the there was a
Speaker 1: staff that apparently David was given and it was a
Speaker 1: staff that that flowered, and that's how they knew he
Speaker 1: was supposed to be the king. And there was something
Speaker 1: else I think that was in it, supposedly in the
Speaker 1: ark of the the mode, the the tink commandments. Right,
Speaker 1: those are the three things, to my understanding, that were
Speaker 1: supposedly physical objects stored inside of it. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that the whole uh you know, notion of spellbinding
Speaker 1: or imputing some kind of power within the physical object
Speaker 1: is you know, the story. What they say is that
Speaker 1: it's the throne of God on earth. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to even think about that, because
Speaker 1: it's just like I don't I don't perceive God as
Speaker 1: having a throne, you know, And then like how so anyway,
Speaker 1: there are some things that will just remain a mystery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm okay with leaving it up to mystery.
Speaker 2: I try not to be so shre were about everything
Speaker 2: or anything for that matter, you know, because whenever you
Speaker 2: see whatever, you're sure about something, you're saying that it's
Speaker 2: definitely not this. And I'm like, all right, I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna say I don't know.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like one of the smartest things you can say
Speaker 2: is I don't know, you know, but but yeah, as
Speaker 2: far as you know. Just to get back on Maria Sabina,
Speaker 2: I thought that, you know, it was so interesting. I
Speaker 2: heard a poem by her, and her like most famous poem.
Speaker 2: I got it typed out right here, but she said,
Speaker 2: Cure yourself with the light of the sun and the
Speaker 2: rays of the moon, with the sound of the river
Speaker 2: and the waterfall, with the swaying of the sea and
Speaker 2: the fluttering of birds. Heal yourself with mint, with nme
Speaker 2: and eucalyptus. Sweeten yourself with lavender, rosemary and camamill. Hug
Speaker 2: yourself with the cocoa bean in a touch of cinnamon.
Speaker 2: Put love and tea instead of sugar, and take it
Speaker 2: looking at the stars. Heal yourself with the kisses that
Speaker 2: the wind gives you in the hugs of the rain.
Speaker 2: Gets strong with bare feet on the ground, and with
Speaker 2: everything that is born from it. Get smarter every day
Speaker 2: by listening to your intuition, looking at the world with
Speaker 2: the eye of your forehead, jump, dance, sing, so that
Speaker 2: you live happier, heal yourself with beautiful love, and always
Speaker 2: remember you are the medicine. I was like, ah, ude,
Speaker 2: that's awesome.
Speaker 1: That's that's the message we need right now when we're
Speaker 1: trying to like dope up on vaccines and thinking that
Speaker 1: AI is going to save us. Man, that's the message
Speaker 1: this world needs.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, Yes, there's no doubt about it. And
Speaker 2: that's what you know. That's that's what a mushroom experience.
Speaker 2: It'll lend you like this kind of light shining on
Speaker 2: your own intuition that helps you remember things and know things.
Speaker 2: And this to me is like if she would have
Speaker 2: never taken the mushroom, Like I feel like a poem
Speaker 2: like this would probably be pretty hard to just come
Speaker 2: up with. But it it's it's magic, dude, It's it's
Speaker 2: totally magic. And I hate whenever people are just like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's just psychedelics, it's just hallucinations. It's like you can
Speaker 2: probably say that just about every religion and every you know, uh,
Speaker 2: spirituality was built off of some form of psychedelic, right.
Speaker 1: And state of nothing else but probably psychedelics.
Speaker 2: And it could be your your own, your own d MT, right,
Speaker 2: it could just be that simple and so. But a
Speaker 2: lot of these these things are tapped into because of
Speaker 2: like by going into a trance state, which it is
Speaker 2: pretty interesting because I I was looking up a little bit,
Speaker 2: where was it?
Speaker 3: I forgot where it was? Now, oh, here we go.
Speaker 2: So serotonin in general is a pretty fascinating chemical that
Speaker 2: everybody has anyway, right, But it's a it says, it's
Speaker 2: a vital monoamine, neurotransmitter and hormone, and it's primarily primarily
Speaker 2: synthesized in the gut about ninety five percent and the
Speaker 2: brain in the brain from the amino acid trypta fin.
Speaker 2: It acts as a chemical messenger throughout the body, regulating mood, sleep, appetite, digestion,
Speaker 2: and bone health. Like you can't live without serotonin, Like
Speaker 2: it's extremely vital, right, And what the mushrooms and a
Speaker 2: lot of psychedelics do is that they go right to that, like,
Speaker 2: isn't it because of the site, Like the psychedelic the
Speaker 2: way it interacts with us is by going and interacting
Speaker 2: with our serotonin receptors, Is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? True psychedelics, Yeah, you're true. Like LSD, psilocybin, mescaline,
Speaker 1: DMT are all serotonin analogs, So yeah, they that alone
Speaker 1: is it's profound to think about, you know, especially DMT.
Speaker 1: DMT is in so much it's in so many different plants.
Speaker 1: It's it's in our own bodies, right, And so that
Speaker 1: there are neurochemicals, there are consciousness molecules is how like
Speaker 1: molecules of consciousness in the mushroom in plants? Why consciousness
Speaker 1: is primary? Consciousness is exploring itself through itself. I think
Speaker 1: it's beautiful and it's beautiful, and I think that poem.
Speaker 1: I love that you read that poem. That's why we're
Speaker 1: doing this Global Dose Day. We want to just bring
Speaker 1: awareness to the origin of where this work came from.
Speaker 1: There is so much potential right now for it to
Speaker 1: be subsumed by medical models. And like, there's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with medical application of psilocybin. There's nothing wrong with therapeutic application.
Speaker 1: I've seen enormous healing come about, and that is the
Speaker 1: lowest hanging fruit of the tree. Of course. Like I
Speaker 1: got worked with a physician one time he got out
Speaker 1: of his mushroom session he set up after like six hours.
Speaker 1: He's like, of course these things cured depression. I just
Speaker 1: talked to God for six hours. That's what we're talking
Speaker 1: about here, right, So, Maria Sabina's message has really been lost.
Speaker 1: It's really been lost. And I know that there are
Speaker 1: people who criticize me as being this white guy that's
Speaker 1: trying to do a you know, a global holiday for
Speaker 1: Maria Sabina. And I got people online saying, well, what
Speaker 1: do you think Maria Sabina would say? I don't really
Speaker 1: know what Maria saban would say, but what I say
Speaker 1: is that we need to give her some awareness. We
Speaker 1: need to remember that this is where this work comes from.
Speaker 1: It doesn't come from a laboratory. It doesn't come from
Speaker 1: compass pathways. It doesn't come from Paul Stammets, it doesn't
Speaker 1: come from Eric Osborne, it doesn't even come from Maria Sabina, right,
Speaker 1: it comes from the mystery of creation. On some of
Speaker 1: the oldest cave paintings depict psilocybin mushrooms like this is
Speaker 1: who we are, This is who we are. So I
Speaker 1: have people all the time, like, you know, giving me
Speaker 1: some grief about psychedelics being a shortcut, or you don't
Speaker 1: need psychedelics to get their good life. Okay, good luck.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can go sit in an aschrom er in
Speaker 1: a cave for fifteen years and have moments of insight.
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful that I can have a devoted practice
Speaker 1: that's really actually fucking hard. Like I've been working with
Speaker 1: these mushrooms for twenty seven years and they've kicked my
Speaker 1: ass innumerable times. It has required intense personal development and
Speaker 1: integration work. So in on of the things that this
Speaker 1: is a shortcut has no idea what this work is
Speaker 1: really about.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent, dude.
Speaker 2: I mean anything that you got going on in your life,
Speaker 2: Like if you are having a bad day where you
Speaker 2: are keeping things in the dark, you're you're not wanting
Speaker 2: to come face to face with the things that you
Speaker 2: know you need to face, but you're kind of just
Speaker 2: putting off, dude. And all the different mushrooms are very
Speaker 2: different in how they're going to interact with your you know,
Speaker 2: your brain chemistry and your consciousness in general. But like,
Speaker 2: good luck running away from that on a mushroom trip,
Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to like because the mushroom.
Speaker 2: I mean they are the teacher like they they literally
Speaker 2: they're they're one of the if not the best teacher.
Speaker 2: You can get way more. I've learned so much more
Speaker 2: from the mushroom than I ever have from any mystic,
Speaker 2: pre shaman teacher anything like that. And the beautiful part
Speaker 2: is is that you're not being told anything from anybody else.
Speaker 2: It is a conversation you are having with yourself in
Speaker 2: order to heal yourself and figure things out about yourself
Speaker 2: and remember things about yourself.
Speaker 3: And it's a it's dude, it's a.
Speaker 2: Communion, like if full on is you communing with call
Speaker 2: it the Almighty, call it God, call it Source, call
Speaker 2: it whatever the fuck that is. Like there, it is
Speaker 2: one of the most magical things. Yeah, I've heard people
Speaker 2: say that, you know that it's just a shortcut. And
Speaker 2: you'll even hear like Guru's like sad, Guru, He's like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I don't miss with any of the psychedelics.
Speaker 3: It's just a shortcut to get to it.
Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, like, I'm sorry, But at least over
Speaker 2: in the Western world, we don't have all of this
Speaker 2: time to sit in meditation for nine hours a day.
Speaker 2: Like we live very fast paced lives. That's just the
Speaker 2: way of the world in which we live. But in
Speaker 2: order I will say, like, there are definitely certain things
Speaker 2: that maybe some might not be ready for on a
Speaker 2: deeply heroic, you know, mushroom journey. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it was wrong for you to try it. If anything,
Speaker 2: I think that it points you in the direction of
Speaker 2: things that you need to work on, and it causes
Speaker 2: much more inter reflection in general.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Hey, absolutely, I mean you know, so here we go,
Speaker 1: all right, Hinduism rich psychedelic history, right, Like we already
Speaker 1: know that the rig veda soma was a psychedelic drink.
Speaker 1: Most people think it was a mushroom mixture of some sort. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: there are countless instances of psychedelics as a sacrament in Hinduism. Okay,
Speaker 1: So like even someone coming out of that tradition and
Speaker 1: then going to criticize, you know, the use is not
Speaker 1: fully aware of the origin of their own tradition. And
Speaker 1: when we talk about privilege, Yeah, what a privilege it
Speaker 1: is to be born in a situation where you can
Speaker 1: meditate for nine hours a day and like that becomes
Speaker 1: your life. Now, what you brought up that I wanted
Speaker 1: to be sure in touch on is two things, all right.
Speaker 1: The first is one of the real dangers in the
Speaker 1: psychedelic community right now as it stands, is that because
Speaker 1: there is no real, I mean real depth of history
Speaker 1: historical experience within our culture. You got the sixties and
Speaker 1: seventies that just like became a shit show and then
Speaker 1: it was illegal. And now we've got, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: ten years under our belt where there's some level of acceptance. Right,
Speaker 1: these tools take decades to learn to understand. The mushroom
Speaker 1: has been my teacher as well, and I didn't even
Speaker 1: start to understand it until I was in a ten
Speaker 1: year deep practice with it. Then I started to really
Speaker 1: understand that I don't understand just like you said earlier, right,
Speaker 1: And most people that are coming up in psychedelics right
Speaker 1: now are having a handful of experiences and they think
Speaker 1: they understand how psychedelics work. Well, this is what it is.
Speaker 1: And now I'm a guru, now I'm a psychedelic leader. Right.
Speaker 1: That is there is a real danger there because they
Speaker 1: require a depth of practice. They require that. And then
Speaker 1: what you spoke to in terms of you know, I say,
Speaker 1: going too far too fast, right, like being exposed to
Speaker 1: deep information that maybe we haven't grounded ourselves and oven
Speaker 1: prepared ourselves not for. And that's really something to consider.
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately why we started sanctuary, because we need
Speaker 1: community since there is no real tradition. Everybody wants to
Speaker 1: talk about, how oh do you come from a lineage?
Speaker 1: Like thank you? I am? I am the lineage. In
Speaker 1: my own experience, I didn't have anybody to learn from.
Speaker 1: The mushrooms called to me. I didn't have anybody to
Speaker 1: teach me. So I continue to go back to the mushroom.
Speaker 1: And so when we have the opportunity to build communities
Speaker 1: of people who are humbly working to try to understand
Speaker 1: what it is that we're even working with, that is
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say necessarily, it's like it is a safeguard.
Speaker 1: It doesn't prevent exposure to material that is too deep.
Speaker 1: But when you're exposed to material that's too deep and
Speaker 1: you don't have a grounded community or you know practice
Speaker 1: that you can go back to that will help you
Speaker 1: integrate and really like embody even if you can't remember it.
Speaker 1: Those things, I mean, that's that's the biggest learned lesson
Speaker 1: that I learned from these retreats in Jamaica. I feel
Speaker 1: a certain amount of remorse about it. Is that we
Speaker 1: would have people come down for a week, we'd give them,
Speaker 1: you know, three doses, escalating in intensity usually, and then
Speaker 1: they would go back to their cubicle in Chicago or
Speaker 1: whatever it was. And like there was a ton of
Speaker 1: healing and goodness that came out of that, and a
Speaker 1: lot of those people went back to communities and families
Speaker 1: who they couldn't even talk about their experiences and there
Speaker 1: is that's a problem. That's a problem. So you know,
Speaker 1: that's why we build sanctuary, because we want people to
Speaker 1: have a eventually worldwide but right now, you know, a
Speaker 1: US based national community where people from all around the
Speaker 1: country can come together and share other experiences, ask questions
Speaker 1: like see how much we don't know together, and explore
Speaker 1: this landscape that is frankly very new to us.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 2: It is a whole new frontier, you know, and I
Speaker 2: think that it's causing us to like it causes us
Speaker 2: to really reframe our framework around what reality actually is.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the real foundational like shattering is that
Speaker 2: you know, we before we have any of these kind
Speaker 2: of mystical experiences via meditation or psychedelic or what have you. Like,
Speaker 2: we we come to like build this reality and become
Speaker 2: familiar with it, and we know how it works and
Speaker 2: we know how it doesn't work, and you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, we understand relationships at a certain level. But
Speaker 2: then you partake of the Holy sacrament and it completely
Speaker 2: shatters that and it causes some people to freak fuck out,
Speaker 2: Like it is something that is scary, Like if you've
Speaker 2: ever done, you know, like a heroic dosage of mushrooms
Speaker 2: or took too much DMT or something like that, it'll
Speaker 2: leave you like in some form of spiritual fucking psychosis
Speaker 2: because it's too much information all at one time, and
Speaker 2: it shatters your belief around everything else. And some people
Speaker 2: start to fucking downward spiral with all of that. And
Speaker 2: I'm I feel like I'm a prime example of that
Speaker 2: as well, dude, Like I've I've had experiences on psychedelics
Speaker 2: to where I'm like, I don't know what's real anymore,
Speaker 2: Like I have no idea what the fuck is real?
Speaker 3: I like, I feel like, am I crazy?
Speaker 2: Because then you'll start to talk about it to your
Speaker 2: peers and to your family members and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and they'll be like, ah, dude, you know, I think
Speaker 2: that you just took too many mushrooms one time. I'm like, dude,
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, like, these experiences are more real than reality,
Speaker 2: like more real than reality. And you know, it's not
Speaker 2: like a euphemism saying that, like it's a literal there
Speaker 2: is another world in which we're completely unaware of if
Speaker 2: you're basing your truth about the nature of reality and fundamentalism,
Speaker 2: like it is so far removed. And I think that
Speaker 2: that is a great teacher because it will cause you,
Speaker 2: like at a at a very quick pace and to
Speaker 2: rethink everything. And it can really, like I said, it
Speaker 2: can really you know, shake the foundation of which you
Speaker 2: built your reality and your senses and everything else on.
Speaker 2: But it can be a lot. And that's why the
Speaker 2: integration process, I believe, like is the most important part.
Speaker 2: Like the psychedelic you know, going on the journey and
Speaker 2: everything like that, it is, it's amazing, but it's the
Speaker 2: integration about what you do with that information after that trip, right, Like,
Speaker 2: And that's why, dude, I haven't tripped since October or
Speaker 2: November or something like that. It's been a while because
Speaker 2: my last one was like crazy, like it really fucking
Speaker 2: like it broke me, dude. But it's because and I'm
Speaker 2: not like scared to try it for a while. I
Speaker 2: was really scared to try another psychedelic or anything like
Speaker 2: that for a while. But I'm not scared of it
Speaker 2: anymore because I've I've taken the time to integrate the
Speaker 2: quote unquote bad trip, right and the bad trips. You know,
Speaker 2: they say that those are the better teachers. You're gonna
Speaker 2: learn way more from a bad trip than you're ever
Speaker 2: gonna learn from a good trip. A good trip will
Speaker 2: cause you to be curious, you know, a bad trip
Speaker 2: will cause you to become extremely introspective.
Speaker 3: In my in my experience anyway, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm on bad trips with the best teachers on. So
Speaker 1: that's an adage for me for sure. And I just
Speaker 1: you know, I think sometimes I forget how privileged I've
Speaker 1: been to be able to help so many people feel
Speaker 1: feel normal, feel okay in their experiences. You know, help
Speaker 1: you will take those difficult, bad experiences and turn them
Speaker 1: into something good. I just I've been I've been so
Speaker 1: privileged with this work. I'm so grateful for it, and
Speaker 1: so like when I hear that, it really like there's
Speaker 1: like this pain in my heart that there are so
Speaker 1: many people that are having these experiences and don't have
Speaker 1: a community, They don't have a place where they can
Speaker 1: be heard and feel okay, because that is that's the
Speaker 1: first step in turning a bad trip good is like
Speaker 1: is just being heard and hearing like, no, your experience
Speaker 1: was valid, it was real. It means something, and like,
Speaker 1: let's take some time to explore that together.
Speaker 2: Oh dude, and now you being somebody who's helped administer
Speaker 2: over four thousand plus doses of psilocybin professionally, like that
Speaker 2: has got to be one of the craziest things. Like
Speaker 2: shamans in general, do you consider yourself a shaman?
Speaker 1: I think that word been really been misappropriated. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that we will eventually understand through you know,
Speaker 1: quantum sciences, that we're all quote unquote shamans, that we're
Speaker 1: all manifesting all the time, you know, I do. I
Speaker 1: do have a an experiential belief that these the awareness
Speaker 1: that is brought on by these tools can help us
Speaker 1: understand how to use our faculties in different ways. Chigong
Speaker 1: is a a practice that has taught that to me.
Speaker 1: If you ever look up chigong healing, there are people
Speaker 1: who use their electromagnetic field to balance and modify the
Speaker 1: electromagnetic field of others. And I think we'll eventually find
Speaker 1: that that's ultimately and like that's one of the things
Speaker 1: that quote shaman we're doing there is I I do
Speaker 1: like I have had, you know, lots of communications with
Speaker 1: other beings, so I do consider myself, you know, an
Speaker 1: access point. I guess at times I can be, but
Speaker 1: I struggle with the titles that get adopted and and
Speaker 1: and denote some level of authority. I'm just I'm just
Speaker 1: a guy that like has eaten a lot of mushrooms
Speaker 1: and helps other people work through their mushroom experiences.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, dude, I appreciate your humbleness on that as well,
Speaker 2: because I do think that that that does get thrown
Speaker 2: around and maybe it's not even fully understood. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, as somebody who has gone on it as
Speaker 2: many trips as you had and helped administer you know,
Speaker 2: even more, is fascinating to me, Like before we get
Speaker 2: to the beings, because I definitely want to get to
Speaker 2: that part, but like whenever you're so you're essentially like
Speaker 2: are you whenever you say that you're administering all these doses,
Speaker 2: like are you are you also partaking in the mushroom?
Speaker 2: Because I've heard that before that you know, like there
Speaker 2: are certain shamans will say that, you know, whenever you
Speaker 2: go into South America or whatever and you want to
Speaker 2: partake in ayahuasca, that there will be shamans or medicine
Speaker 2: men that will like that, will drink it with you,
Speaker 2: and so that they're essentially tripping with you, and they're
Speaker 2: kind of seeing what you're seeing and experiencing what you're
Speaker 2: seeing experiencing, and they're walking with you through that is
Speaker 2: And I don't even know if I fully understand that,
Speaker 2: Like I could be misunderstanding how that works, but like, no.
Speaker 1: That's true. I mean, you know, there there are also
Speaker 1: instances where the the healer or the facility know whatever
Speaker 1: you want call those people are the only ones who
Speaker 1: take the psychedelic like where they take the mushroom, the
Speaker 1: person that they're helping doesn't, and then they diagnose the
Speaker 1: person's illness and help. And so, like I said, there's
Speaker 1: already been plenty of documentation about psychedelics being able to
Speaker 1: facilitate extrasensory perception and clarable wants and whatnot. I've seen.
Speaker 1: I have seen hundreds of profound instances of clarable lands,
Speaker 1: where people under the mushroom state become fully clarable end
Speaker 1: of someone else's life and can tell them everything. And
Speaker 1: you know, of course, like how could I, How could
Speaker 1: I work in this space and not eventually encounter that
Speaker 1: within myself? I do. It's been a while most of
Speaker 1: the time now, because here's here's what happens. When you
Speaker 1: start to develop a certain level of skill and people
Speaker 1: see that and they perceive it as something special, then
Speaker 1: they start to put you on a pedestal. They start
Speaker 1: to think that you're special. And I'm not special. I'm
Speaker 1: just so if there are if there are individuals who
Speaker 1: legitimately would benefit from my support in that way, then
Speaker 1: I will do that. But moreover, most people are fully
Speaker 1: capable of caring for themselves, and what I really try
Speaker 1: to do is just be a mentor to help people
Speaker 1: learn how to work with the sacrament so that they
Speaker 1: can use it as a tool for themselves. You know,
Speaker 1: the highest dose I've ever facilitated on was fifteen grams
Speaker 1: I did. That was a dose where I was the spaceholder,
Speaker 1: but I have done hundreds of dose is where I've
Speaker 1: consumed alongside the people, and it's been really, really valuable.
Speaker 1: It's been really helpful. There's one person right now that
Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, somewhere in the next few months,
Speaker 1: probably going to do a dose together because he's got
Speaker 1: some stuff that he could benefit from some insight on,
Speaker 1: and based on what he shared, I think that I
Speaker 1: might be able to provide some insight for him on that.
Speaker 1: But I do that very selectively these days. It's really challenging.
Speaker 1: It's really challenging work. I did a lot in Jamaica
Speaker 1: and it did two things. It almost ripped me apart
Speaker 1: because I was constantly living in the psychic world and
Speaker 1: people started to put me on a pestol and thought
Speaker 1: that I was some kind of shaman and just a
Speaker 1: guy that's figuring it out with you. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: been my approach with it.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And even just going back to what you were
Speaker 2: saying earlier as far as like, you know, if you
Speaker 2: were going to I don't know if the term is
Speaker 2: trips it or you know, just help hold space but like,
Speaker 2: essentially the administer will take the psychedelic while trying to
Speaker 2: you know, heal or find out how to heal the
Speaker 2: other person that they're working with. And Maria Sabina is
Speaker 2: like a prime example of that, you know, whenever.
Speaker 1: She also said, when this is what I have found
Speaker 1: to be true is that eventually you learn to speak
Speaker 1: the language of the mushroom without having to eat the mushroom,
Speaker 1: and so you can tune into that frequency. Like if
Speaker 1: people are tripping around me, then I'm kind of tripping.
Speaker 1: There was this one time I was at a conference,
Speaker 1: this psychedelic conference in Jamaica, and we're all sitting at
Speaker 1: a table eating dinner and everything's cool, and then this
Speaker 1: couple walks over and they're like really quiet and they
Speaker 1: sit down and all of a sudden, I'm just like,
Speaker 1: I am fucking tripping balls. What is going on here?
Speaker 1: And then I'm looking at them and they're just kind
Speaker 1: of like gigging on each other. Did you'll get mushrooms?
Speaker 1: And they're like wow. I was like, because now I'm tripping.
Speaker 1: This is not fair. You got to let me know.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know that tuning fork that we
Speaker 1: find resonance with and that's I have seen. I've seen
Speaker 1: people go into psychosis who didn't consume mushrooms just from
Speaker 1: being around people who are. So I've seen three people
Speaker 1: who were who were primed for schizophrenia, one had one
Speaker 1: of that, two of them had already had a schizophrenic break,
Speaker 1: and one had a family history of schizophrenia. And all
Speaker 1: three of these people just by being around people in
Speaker 1: ceremony who were on mushrooms into the pabinet of schizophrenic break.
Speaker 1: One of them was the most fucking insane, Like it
Speaker 1: would take me thirty minutes to tell this story, but
Speaker 1: it was the most insane karmic retribution that I have
Speaker 1: ever witnessed. That was like decades in the making, and
Speaker 1: it was the outcome of this person having a schizophrenic
Speaker 1: break just from by just by being on site with
Speaker 1: people who were eating mushrooms.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's I did not know that that was a thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it does make sense as far as the resonance goes.
Speaker 2: You know, Damn, there's just so much we don't know
Speaker 2: about this stuff, but it's definitely worth being explored, you know.
Speaker 3: And I think that the idea that it was.
Speaker 2: Ever illegal in the first place, is stupid, like it's
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think this is a big
Speaker 1: part of why it was they were illegal, right, There's
Speaker 1: there is knowledge, there is historical, even government knowledge. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons that they Gordon Wauson when
Speaker 1: he went to Mariasvina's the second or third time, he
Speaker 1: did not know it, apparently, but there was a CI
Speaker 1: undercover CIA agent who went down with him in the
Speaker 1: hopes of understanding how these mushrooms were used for mind reading, prophecy, claravoyance,
Speaker 1: et cetera.
Speaker 2: Oh, that does make sense, okay, Yeah, And it does
Speaker 2: seem that they're for sure has been government you know,
Speaker 2: poking and prodding in order to try and take advantage
Speaker 2: of it and stuff like that. That was really the
Speaker 2: whole idea around the you know, the the psychedelic revolution
Speaker 2: back in the sixties and seventies with LSD and.
Speaker 3: Stuff like that, which is pretty interesting, which I do.
Speaker 2: One thing pertaining to that which I thought was pretty
Speaker 2: wild is that the if it wasn't and I could
Speaker 2: be wrong, but if it wasn't for Maria Sabina and
Speaker 2: the what is the name of the guy, Gordon Wawson
Speaker 2: and the other guy. Then maybe Albert Hoffman would have
Speaker 2: never been able to create the the LSD element.
Speaker 1: So they brought back samples of psilocybin to Hoffman. Now
Speaker 1: ELSD had been formulated prior to any knowledge of psilocybin.
Speaker 1: LSD's So LSD is a really interesting history books somewhere
Speaker 1: called it's it called acid Trip. It's a really good
Speaker 1: book about the history of LSD. But LSD was created,
Speaker 1: I don't know, ten or fifteen years before it was
Speaker 1: even sampled by Hoffman. He created it as a part
Speaker 1: of trying to understand like there was some I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was migraine medicine, I forget what it was.
Speaker 1: They were trying to create some kind of a typical medicine.
Speaker 1: And they had something like twenty or twenty five different
Speaker 1: varieties of LSD right right, and whichever one became the LSD.
Speaker 1: Hoffman said that, you know, fifteen years or ten years
Speaker 1: after originally making it, that it was calling to him
Speaker 1: from the from the shelf, from the drawer where it
Speaker 1: was kept, and he just had his intuition to go
Speaker 1: back to plosc twenty five. He had this intuition to
Speaker 1: go back and check it out, and that's when, well,
Speaker 1: was it forty one when the bicycle day, the original
Speaker 1: bicycle day, I was like forty or forty one something
Speaker 1: like that, And Maria Sabina wasn't until the fifties. So
Speaker 1: ELSD came first, and then Hoffmann, who had this pharmacological
Speaker 1: experience with psychedelics, was brought in to synthesize Psiloiceba.
Speaker 2: Wow, you know, I've always been pretty scared to try LSD, Like.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't wait for my next LSD trip, Like,
Speaker 1: when's it coming, It's time, It's time. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: maybe the fall I'm thinking to give one.
Speaker 2: In what's the difference in your experience between the experience
Speaker 2: of the of psilocybin and the experience of LSD.
Speaker 1: ELSD is Well, sil seven is much more otherworldly and spiritual,
Speaker 1: and yeah, ELSD, I have never I've had some interesting experiences,
Speaker 1: but never anything that is truly otherworldly. I've never. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like psilocybin. LSD is like when I want to turn
Speaker 1: into a Ferrari, I take LSD and then I become
Speaker 1: a Ferrari for twelve hours and then I sleep for
Speaker 1: ten Wow, more like a Turner Ferrari for sixteen hours. Yeah, eld.
Speaker 1: The only thing about LSD is it doesn't last long enough.
Speaker 3: Oh you feel that way, I.
Speaker 1: Definitely go that way. I don't want it to end.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, please don't go, Please don't go.
Speaker 1: I love it so much.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I've said for years that my career was built on psilicybin.
Speaker 1: My retirement is going to be LSD.
Speaker 2: Wow. You know, I've heard some wild stories about LSD.
Speaker 2: My my uncle he used to be the lead singer
Speaker 2: in a rock band back in Pittsburgh in the in
Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties. He actually got pretty big, Like
Speaker 2: he was being played on radio stations and he was
Speaker 2: selling out concerts sponsored by Corp's Light and so he
Speaker 2: got to be pretty big. And so obviously as a
Speaker 2: rock star, you're like, you're going to be trying all
Speaker 2: the drugs, you know what I mean, especially, and that's
Speaker 2: was ultimately his downfall because he couldn't keep it at psychedelics.
Speaker 2: He got into a bunch of the harder shit. But
Speaker 2: he I remember him telling me stories about his experiences.
Speaker 2: One of his experiences on LSD that he went to
Speaker 2: a party after taking some acid and whenever he got
Speaker 2: there after it started to kick in. He goes, man,
Speaker 2: it was so strange because like I could hear wah
Speaker 2: wah wah approaching me, and I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2: He said that it sounded like it was coming from
Speaker 2: far away, and that it was like coming up to him.
Speaker 2: And he said, out of nowhere, fucking missus pac Man
Speaker 2: appeared and it was like trying to trying to eat
Speaker 2: him and stuff like that, and so and he said,
Speaker 2: he said, every time she would get close to me,
Speaker 2: I would just punt the ever living fuck out of
Speaker 2: her and she would fly all the way down the street.
Speaker 2: And he goes, she was relentless. She just kept on
Speaker 2: coming back. So everybody kept on asking what are you
Speaker 2: kicking for? What is all this about?
Speaker 3: He said, Missus pac Man is trying to kill me.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a good time. Come on. There's wrong
Speaker 1: with that, you know, I mean, like, I don't know's
Speaker 1: there's so much to get me said there. It's not
Speaker 1: to say that there aren't risks. There certainly are. But
Speaker 1: one of the things that I find with psychedelics is
Speaker 1: like they're a training ground for consciousness. And so the
Speaker 1: most important thing for me, and we can we can
Speaker 1: use this kind of bridge into the entities. And just
Speaker 1: as I am going to need to bounce here at three,
Speaker 1: I realize I got some things I got to take
Speaker 1: care of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's going man.
Speaker 1: This is an awesome conversation though. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I have found about psychedelics and just like existence
Speaker 1: being because I have I have now come to understand.
Speaker 1: All right, So there's another world that's interfaced with this one.
Speaker 1: There are entities I get as an As an entity,
Speaker 1: I get to claim my sovereignty as well. I get
Speaker 1: to claim this is my space. You don't come in it, right,
Speaker 1: And that is an important lesson that can and should
Speaker 1: be learned through psychedelic work. Right. It's like that Gandalf
Speaker 1: and you shall not pass. We have that authority. There
Speaker 1: was a time when it first really started working with
Speaker 1: my head years ago. I had this I had this
Speaker 1: female do you know what you know? The chrome, the
Speaker 1: archetype of the chron like the witch yield. I had this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had this chron that would come into me and
Speaker 1: this other old guy used to trip with this old
Speaker 1: guy he looked like Gandalf. Gandolf in my head. He
Speaker 1: would tell me a couple of times, like, man, I've
Speaker 1: seen you turn into this woman. And I was like, really,
Speaker 1: because I felt like I turned into a old woman.
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, dude, you turned into this old woman.
Speaker 1: That's kind of creepy. And I was like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: felt kind of creepy. That's weird. And so it happened,
Speaker 1: and it happened, and it didn't always happen, but it
Speaker 1: would happen sometimes, and then one time it started, it happened.
Speaker 1: It was happening, and I had already decided like, I'm
Speaker 1: not cool with this there. If there is a disincarnate
Speaker 1: entity that's like doesn't have a body, I'm not cool
Speaker 1: with it using mine. I'm just not I don't know you,
Speaker 1: I'm not cool with that. And so I had just
Speaker 1: thought like it was just like this like psychological expression,
Speaker 1: that it was not something that was invading my space
Speaker 1: until he started saying, dude, I saw you, and he
Speaker 1: was a super visual tripper. It's like, I'm seeing you
Speaker 1: turn into this old lady and it's fucking weird. And
Speaker 1: so then this one time it started happening, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I felt like this my personality start to shift,
Speaker 1: and right like as it got to like moving, it
Speaker 1: would like move across my being, and right as it
Speaker 1: got to like almost at the center point, I was like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't get to and it just immediately was gone.
Speaker 1: And I never had that happen again, and that taught
Speaker 1: me a really important lesson about my personal sovereignty. And
Speaker 1: so over the years in working in these spaces, that
Speaker 1: has allowed me to encounter these beings. I wouldn't say
Speaker 1: without fear, because there's been some definitely been some dark
Speaker 1: things that encountered, some things that I didn't know whether
Speaker 1: or not they were dark or what they were. But
Speaker 1: this is also you know, a standard teaching and esoteric
Speaker 1: magic that we all are sovereign commanders, like you were
Speaker 1: saying earlier, like co creators of our world. So that
Speaker 1: is a very important part of my practice. I don't channel,
Speaker 1: I don't allow anything to use my body or my being.
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily against it. I know people the channel,
Speaker 1: and I've had some experiences of people channing channeling in
Speaker 1: the mushroom space with me, but it's not something that
Speaker 1: I am here to do. I'm here to be a
Speaker 1: sovereign being, and I am that is just how I
Speaker 1: outperate in the space. So yeah, if you want to
Speaker 1: use that to bridge into some of the entity talk
Speaker 1: I thought I found very interesting. I've had tons of
Speaker 1: wild experiences that have just really questioned had me questioned reality?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I can imagine, dude. I mean, and outside
Speaker 2: of my Loheem experience on psychedelics, I was able to.
Speaker 2: I say I was able to, but I experienced like
Speaker 2: this this cat person, you know, and it was like
Speaker 2: laying up against me. I could feel it purring, and
Speaker 2: it was a wild experience. But whenever people say that
Speaker 2: they have it, you know, encounters, and you know, maybe
Speaker 2: you call them aliens or maybe you call them, you know,
Speaker 2: mythological creatures or certain archetypes or or gods or what
Speaker 2: have you. But there is another presence or more presences
Speaker 2: that are around you whenever you become more open, and
Speaker 2: usually through psychedelics or some kind of trance state or
Speaker 2: meditational state, that that light is now shed on to
Speaker 2: whatever else is around you or maybe attached to you,
Speaker 2: or however you want to look at it. It's like
Speaker 2: it's a weird thing. And even with like I've been
Speaker 2: putting like a lot of thought into all of this
Speaker 2: the you know, the alien disclosure, like and I'm I'm
Speaker 2: I'm a believer that there are definitely, like other consciousnesses
Speaker 2: that are absolutely out there, like without a doubt, right yes,
Speaker 2: And we don't have the perception or the senses to
Speaker 2: be able to really you know, hone in on what
Speaker 2: that is or where it's coming from or or stuff
Speaker 2: like that. Just being a human we have, you know,
Speaker 2: limited capabilities. But the more I really dive into consciousness,
Speaker 2: the more I begin to understand that there is no
Speaker 2: such thing as alien. It's just different consciousnesses, you know.
Speaker 2: And and maybe those different consciousnesses will jump into an
Speaker 2: interesting looking vehicle that we're not familiar with, but ultimately
Speaker 2: they're inward like that, whatever they are, we're made of
Speaker 2: the same thing.
Speaker 3: Like do you feel that as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's why we have the ability to
Speaker 1: our have our sovereign space, Like you can't this is mine,
Speaker 1: you can't take it over, Like I get to command me,
Speaker 1: and that's and you get to command you. You know.
Speaker 1: Let's let's but we we all all beings have this
Speaker 1: inherent sovereignty. It's when we're not aware of that that
Speaker 1: would become subject to being influenced or being invaded by others,
Speaker 1: you know, And I think that, like, I love what
Speaker 1: you're saying about there is no alien because that, to me,
Speaker 1: that is an artifact of uh, colonial otherism. Like it's
Speaker 1: there's not there's not an other, There's just all of us.
Speaker 1: There's just it experiencing itself in different forms, you know.
Speaker 1: So that disarms a lot of the fear that comes around.
Speaker 1: It's not to say that there aren't dark and scary
Speaker 1: and potentially even dangerous entities out there, but ultimately they
Speaker 1: are also of the creator as well, right, so there
Speaker 1: is a way to understand them as teachers, and there
Speaker 1: is a way to disarm them through that understanding.
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, exactly how you would treat somebody in your
Speaker 2: real life, Like, you know, you got to send boundaries.
Speaker 2: And I personally, I don't like whenever people are trying
Speaker 2: to touch me or be next to me, I'm like
Speaker 2: the fuck right here, you know, like give me, let
Speaker 2: me have my space here, you know. But but yeah, so,
Speaker 2: what what are some of your experiences with do I
Speaker 2: even need to say other worldly entities or just entities
Speaker 2: in general?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've had, you know, shared UFO encounters
Speaker 1: with craft I've had three of those, only two were shared.
Speaker 1: One was a private experience that I had last year.
Speaker 1: I have had I won't get into the story because
Speaker 1: it goes too long, but I have had physical objects
Speaker 1: gifted me and gifted to me through beings that that's
Speaker 1: some of the most Well, okay, all right, I gotta
Speaker 1: sit with this.
Speaker 3: Holy shit, yeah it's.
Speaker 1: It's there's something interesting there. One of the most initially
Speaker 1: a rattling and it took me several years to understand.
Speaker 1: There was an individual who over his three doses, and
Speaker 1: I do with this because I needed to understand what
Speaker 1: was going on as best I could because it was
Speaker 1: intimidating for everybody. The first dose, I didn't dose, and
Speaker 1: then after that I was like, yeah, I need needs
Speaker 1: some mushrooms. What's going on here? And this guy would
Speaker 1: like do He would go back and forth in his experience,
Speaker 1: like flip flop, flip flop, turning from like this crotchety
Speaker 1: old man to this growling snarl bear. And every time
Speaker 1: he would dose, he came to me because he said
Speaker 1: that he would talk at WATSCA retreated. This thing happened
Speaker 1: and the people were like, yeah, we can't deal with
Speaker 1: you bro, and I was like, I'll try, I'll see
Speaker 1: what's up. And so he comes down and this first
Speaker 1: experience happens on three grams and it's like, Okay, that's weird.
Speaker 1: I need needs mushrooms and sit with this too. So
Speaker 1: the next time we ate mushrooms and it got weirder,
Speaker 1: and this beare thing started to get verbal, like very
Speaker 1: slowly started to get words. And then it like on
Speaker 1: the third dose, it was freaking everybody out. It was
Speaker 1: poor and rain, so we were all under this little
Speaker 1: cabana tripping together and he was like rowllying and saying
Speaker 1: all this stuff and it was like really freaking people out,
Speaker 1: and I could I could feel that there was something
Speaker 1: like he was saying, I am a god who has
Speaker 1: returned to Earth to bring healing and to bring balance
Speaker 1: and protect the feminine and all this stuff, and I
Speaker 1: was just like, what is this? But it was like
Speaker 1: freaking other people out. And so he would do all
Speaker 1: this stuff with his eyes closed the whole time. He
Speaker 1: do his eye clothes and like when I'm holding space,
Speaker 1: I'm always walking barefoot so I could be silent. And
Speaker 1: so there was one point I was walking by him
Speaker 1: when he was in the bear mode and he just
Speaker 1: like sits up. It's like the peak of it. I'm
Speaker 1: tripping balls. I'm just like, fucking is so intense, and
Speaker 1: everybody is just like fucking bother. They like what is
Speaker 1: going on? And I'm just like, cool, We're all good.
Speaker 1: We're all good. And I'm walking kind of pacing around him,
Speaker 1: trying to keep like a boundary from people so they
Speaker 1: feel protected or whatever. And he like sits up and
Speaker 1: he turns with his eyes closed and he faces me,
Speaker 1: like I'm to his left, and he turns and faces me.
Speaker 1: I was like, yes, he goes, you are no here,
Speaker 1: and I was just like, you know, you hang around
Speaker 1: long enough, you're bound to make a few friends, and
Speaker 1: and then that was it. But like that to me,
Speaker 1: I was like, when that happened, I was like, the fuck,
Speaker 1: there are beings that are watching me. I have a
Speaker 1: reputation in the spirit world. Is that what this means?
Speaker 1: And so later, years later, I never knew what to
Speaker 1: make of it. I mean, I understood it to be
Speaker 1: benevolent eventually, and I just actually had a ceremony recently
Speaker 1: that helped to integrate this. But years later I was
Speaker 1: home back here in the States, and I was watching
Speaker 1: this YouTube channel this father and son who were poltergeist experts,
Speaker 1: and like the CIA, FBI, whenever there's like poltergeists, they
Speaker 1: called them in to come help assess the case whatnot.
Speaker 1: They'd had like some wild stories, and he was telling
Speaker 1: this story of was They were asking like, well, do
Speaker 1: you ever encounter like could beings or whatever. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, one time we encountered this this person who
Speaker 1: seemed to be possessed by it called itself a bear god,
Speaker 1: and it said it was like here to bring healing
Speaker 1: and restore balance and protect the feminine. And I was
Speaker 1: like what, it's exactly that describes exactly what I was
Speaker 1: experiencing there, right. And then about two months ago, we
Speaker 1: were in ceremony and this woman has this statue of
Speaker 1: a bear standing behind a woman and I was like,
Speaker 1: what is that bear? And she's like, oh, that's uh,
Speaker 1: that's the Norse I think its Norse God. I forgot
Speaker 1: it's not Artemis, it's something like that, but it's it
Speaker 1: is this spirit that is a bear god that protects
Speaker 1: the feminine. And when I saw that, I was like,
Speaker 1: that's I think that's what I encountered I think that's what.
Speaker 1: And I have also had the most compelling and the
Speaker 1: thing that I feel most compelled to talk about anymore
Speaker 1: these days around this is the first time it happened.
Speaker 1: I was in my basement grinding up honeur I used
Speaker 1: to grow convinces on field collective orsepreneur that I would sterilize.
Speaker 1: And I was in my basement grinding who and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden there was like I couldn't see it,
Speaker 1: but there was a woman beside me, and she was
Speaker 1: like just radiating love. She was behind me, and I
Speaker 1: just was like overwhelmed and just started crying. And I
Speaker 1: just felt like all this deep, deep love was just
Speaker 1: overwhelmed with love, and like just okay, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: I was just like it was so sacred and so
Speaker 1: so intense and just sat there with it and sobbed
Speaker 1: and felt her love. And then that night I had
Speaker 1: already planned a mushroom ceremony that night by myself, and
Speaker 1: so I thought like, wow, this is gonna be a
Speaker 1: good one. So I go any mushrooms and six grams
Speaker 1: lay there by myself. Nothing happens, nothing happens. It's like, well, yes,
Speaker 1: it's not happened. So I just gave up and laid
Speaker 1: down by the fire, and when I did closed my eyes,
Speaker 1: she like appeared before me in my eyes and I
Speaker 1: was like, ah, sweet hair goes. And then she like
Speaker 1: stepped aside, and I was pummeled with every negative thing
Speaker 1: that I had ever done to women in my life, everys,
Speaker 1: every girlfriend, everything that I'd ever done. It was shitty
Speaker 1: to woman. And so I went through that for several hours.
Speaker 1: Well fast forward many many years later. This was one
Speaker 1: of the most profound thing that's ever happened to me.
Speaker 1: And I don't share it in any way like feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not special. All this is accessible to all
Speaker 1: of us. She is here for all of us. But
Speaker 1: the last retreat in Jamaica before COVID, there was a
Speaker 1: lady well rwind little bit there was in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: I did a solo nose here in my home where
Speaker 1: I went through this series of initiations and I was
Speaker 1: brought into this circle of female like Maria Sabina's clan
Speaker 1: is what it felt like, the heaters, you know, and
Speaker 1: they were like, good, you passed the test, all right,
Speaker 1: come into our circle. So I had this experience, well,
Speaker 1: fast forward to twenty twenty. It was twenty seventeen, and
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, this woman came to our retreats and
Speaker 1: she is of Mexican origin. On the first dose, I
Speaker 1: could feel her like kind of like psychically calling to me,
Speaker 1: and I just like, don't just run to people. I'm
Speaker 1: just like, all right, well, we got to beat together,
Speaker 1: we'll figure this out. Like I'm just gonna let that be.
Speaker 1: And I'm not. I'm not like you. I'm not your boy.
Speaker 1: You know. People kind of had this idea like, oh,
Speaker 1: Eric's the guy, and I'm like that just so I
Speaker 1: left it. And so the next dose we did, we
Speaker 1: my dosed with them, and the same woman she walks
Speaker 1: over to me about an hour in She's like, Eric,
Speaker 1: can ask a question. I was like, yeah, sick, how
Speaker 1: come you don't recognize me? And immediately I was taken
Speaker 1: back to that circle of Maza tech healer women and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, oh my god. All right,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, and she like stormed
Speaker 1: off and she went and sat in her spot. I
Speaker 1: gave her about an hour. I walked over there and
Speaker 1: asked if I could sit down since sure, so I
Speaker 1: sat down and over the next three hours or so,
Speaker 1: she channeled this divine mother and told me my past,
Speaker 1: told me. She didn't directly tell me about sanctuary then,
Speaker 1: but she alluded to this work that we're doing now.
Speaker 1: That was the last trip before it was the last
Speaker 1: ceremony before COVID when our retreats shut down and we
Speaker 1: ended up coming back to the States very shortly after.
Speaker 1: And the next day, the guy there was so much
Speaker 1: she spent like two hours, three hours just like telling
Speaker 1: me my life and telling me all this stuff about
Speaker 1: how I could just like be joyful that we were
Speaker 1: all watched over. The mother was always with us and
Speaker 1: knew stuff about me that the woman could have never known,
Speaker 1: you know, the individual who was doing the champl ever known.
Speaker 1: And then that woman the next day, he told me
Speaker 1: after breakfast, She's like, yeah, I got to talk to you.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, what's up. She's like, you know,
Speaker 1: since I was eight years old, I've been dreaming about
Speaker 1: a man that I thought was supposed to be my husband.
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm fifty now I'm married. I've been dreaming
Speaker 1: about him almost every week since I was a kid.
Speaker 1: And when I got off the bus, I saw you
Speaker 1: and I realized this is the person I've been dreaming of.
Speaker 1: And she's like, I'm not telling you that because I
Speaker 1: think you're supposed to my husband. I'm telling you that
Speaker 1: because I think you're supposed to know that that message
Speaker 1: from yesterday was really important. And since I've been reading
Speaker 1: Chris Bloodsoe stuff and some of the I've been studying
Speaker 1: kind of the I've had some experiences with what I
Speaker 1: would classify as Egyptian deities, and Hawthor being one of them,
Speaker 1: which Chris Bloodsoe talks about the lady being Authoror. I
Speaker 1: have had multiple encounters at this point up to recently.
Speaker 1: I believe that she was the inspiration for this Global
Speaker 1: Dose day to Hono Maria Sabina where it just came
Speaker 1: to me that this is I was like praying to
Speaker 1: the goddess the night and it was like, this is
Speaker 1: what you're doing next, Okay, So you know, all that
Speaker 1: is just to say that there is another world. There
Speaker 1: are beings that we can talk with that are looking
Speaker 1: out for us, that are on our side, and one
Speaker 1: of them that is being made prominently known now is
Speaker 1: this divine mother, This this goddess uh and so I've
Speaker 1: been beginning. I've been beginning to share that a little
Speaker 1: bit more freely because it feels really important, and I
Speaker 1: am starting to understand that it is she is, in
Speaker 1: large part what is ultimately behind the work that I'm doing.
Speaker 2: Wow, what an incredible story. I'd love to be able
Speaker 2: to add on to that, but I know you got
Speaker 2: to bounce here soon.
Speaker 3: But that is amazing.
Speaker 2: I definitely want to be able to have you back on,
Speaker 2: and I want to go as deep as we possibly
Speaker 2: can on many more of these stories and lessons and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I love the work that you're doing.
Speaker 2: I think that it is highly beneficial to humanity and
Speaker 2: consciousness all together.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 2: But before I let you go, we always do a
Speaker 2: tarot reading at the end of every show. WHOA Okay,
Speaker 2: And I pulled a card while you were talking right there,
Speaker 2: and I usually try, and you know, I try and
Speaker 2: have the energy of the conversation flow into the cards
Speaker 2: and then the rite one pop out is how is
Speaker 2: how I go about it? And I usually only have
Speaker 2: one card. And the card we got today is the
Speaker 2: Page of Wands, as you can see right there. And
Speaker 2: I like to read from this book, but it says
Speaker 2: the messenger of fire brings exciting news. Be open to
Speaker 2: adventurous opportunities. The page of Wands is full of youthful
Speaker 2: energy and may represent a child or younger person, or
Speaker 2: even a message from your own inner child, urging you
Speaker 2: to be more playful and adventurous. The young page stands
Speaker 2: still gazing at his wand as if he is imagining
Speaker 2: its endless uses. It is unusual to see him in
Speaker 2: motionless contemplation, a posture that reveals his connection to the
Speaker 2: earth element. He is both grounded and curious, a combination
Speaker 2: that allows him to play without getting hurt, as noted
Speaker 2: on his tunic by the salamanders creatures with fireproof skin.
Speaker 2: That is so cool, dude, because I feel like it
Speaker 2: really takes an excited, almost childlike, adventurous type of mentality
Speaker 2: to even go into the mysteries of what we're talking
Speaker 2: about right here, like without a shadow of a doubt.
Speaker 2: Don't take it too serious, but you know, like don't
Speaker 2: get wrapped up and I'm the one, or you know,
Speaker 2: I'm the most important figure. Here's the thing, Like we
Speaker 2: are the one and we're also the zero, Like I
Speaker 2: think like we're both at the same time, right, So
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Was her main message to me was you can play.
Speaker 1: You are safe to play. Now go and play and
Speaker 1: spread this message, and that's what I've been trying to
Speaker 1: do so perfect.
Speaker 3: Awesome, man.
Speaker 2: Well, look, if anybody wants to be able to learn
Speaker 2: more about you or be able to reach out to
Speaker 2: you find all of your stuff, where would they go
Speaker 2: to do so?
Speaker 1: On social I'm mainly active on TikTok right now of
Speaker 1: the Facebook because we're doing this Global Dose Day that
Speaker 1: I have a Facebook page for that, so you can
Speaker 1: check out the Global Dose Day there or my personal
Speaker 1: page Eric Osborne TikTok, Eric is Osborne YouTube. I've got
Speaker 1: a podcast where I'm just kind of doing like some
Speaker 1: talking here type stuff these days. I've got a lot
Speaker 1: of content from over the years. I've done so many
Speaker 1: different podcasts and that's Eric is Osborne. And yeah, man,
Speaker 1: it's good to start Sanctuary. If you're interested in the
Speaker 1: church that we have Sanctuary dot of Orbit Sanctuary with
Speaker 1: a p you check that out on all the socials
Speaker 1: along the website.
Speaker 2: Awesome, thanks so much, And I'll have all those links
Speaker 2: down in the show notes below for people to be
Speaker 2: able to get there with the quickness. But look, with
Speaker 2: that being said, if Eric Osborne came here and he
Speaker 2: taught you at anything, it's that you don't know what
Speaker 2: you don't know, So don't just get weird.