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Every week, 58 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.479 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 59 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.560 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 60 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:37.479 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 61 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.120 Good Evening. When Veterans Hospital patients on the road to 62 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:55.479 recovery suddenly die in increasing numbers, it's up to VA 63 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.560 Special Agent in Charge Bruce Sackman to find out why. 64 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.039 His shocking discovery rips open the hidden world of what 65 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.400 goes on behind the bedside curtains when a killer doctor 66 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.719 or nurse decides a patient must die behind the murder curtain. 67 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.680 Is the true story of Bruce Sackman, Special Agent in 68 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:16.319 Charge of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of Inspector General. 69 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.080 Sackman's main responsibilities had been investigating white collar crimes such 70 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:25.199 as embezzlement. When he is drawn into the macabre world 71 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.599 of doctors and nurses who murder their patients, Sackman evolves 72 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.280 from an investigator of routine cases to the world's leading 73 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:38.360 expert on medical serial killers msks, doctors and nurses who 74 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.719 fly their evil trade hidden behind the privacy curtain at 75 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:46.240 a patient's bedside. Behind the Murder Curtain tells how this 76 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:51.240 dedicated investigator brought down four msks in veterans' hospitals while 77 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:55.360 developing the Red Flag's Protocol, which is now taught to 78 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:59.479 investigators in forensic nurses throughout the world as a tool 79 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.000 for stop an MSK. The book that we were featuring 80 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:07.360 this evening is Behind the Murder Curtain. Special Agent Bruce 81 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:11.879 Sackman hunts doctors and nurses who kill our veterans with 82 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:18.160 my special guest, special agent and journalist and author Bruce Sackman. 83 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:18.920 Welcome to the. 84 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:21.279 Program, and thank you very much for this interview. 85 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.480 Bruce Sackman, and thank you very much for inviting me. 86 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.000 I'm looking forward to having an important discussion about this 87 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:31.439 very interesting topic. 88 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.839 Absolutely, absolutely congratulations on this book. It's as I said 89 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.759 before the program, it really takes the reader along on 90 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:46.240 this journey to put away some of the most terrible 91 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:51.519 serial killers in history. Here the medical serial killers really 92 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:55.959 praying on the most vulnerable of all. Let's first talk 93 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.519 about we mentioned special Agent in charge of Veterans Administration 94 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:04.639 off of an Inspector general. That's a multiful VA OLA 95 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.399 OLG parton me, and you said it in your book. 96 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:12.040 You're responsible for an area ranging from West Virginia to Maine, 97 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:18.199 including two hundred and fifty thousand Veterans Administration employees. Tell 98 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:20.600 us just a little bit about what the special Agent 99 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.319 in charge and we talked about it in the beginning 100 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:28.639 of what you were typically employed to do. Tell us 101 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.199 a little bit about your background. 102 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:34.360 Sure, well, in I think it was around nineteen seventy eight, 103 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.600 Congress actually created Offices of Inspector Generals and just about 104 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:45.120 every major federal agency. And the purpose of oigs, as 105 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.319 they now in Office of Inspector Generals is to ferret 106 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.800 out fraud, waste, and abuse in the programs of that 107 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.560 particular agency. So before I came to the VA, I 108 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.639 did similar work in the Department of Defense, and then 109 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:02.319 in nine eighty I came over to the VA as 110 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:05.720 a special agent and eventually rose to the position of 111 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.759 Special Agent in Charge, and in that capacity I was 112 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:16.000 responsible for all major criminal investigations for all the VA. 113 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:21.920 Hospitals and regional offices outpatient clinics from West Virginia to Maine. 114 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:30.639 But normally, my normal investigative inventory was white collar crime cases, 115 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:36.319 you know, embezzlement's, frauds, bribery, theft. It wasn't until I 116 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.839 got a call one day from the chief of psychiatry 117 00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:45.360 at the Northport, VA Hospital sort of changed my life. 118 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.639 That's when she called me up and she said, Bruce, 119 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.800 you're not going to believe this, but we actually have 120 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.800 a doctor working here and there's a news story about 121 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:59.680 him where he was imprisoned for poisoning his co workers 122 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.839 and now he's working here as a doctor. How could 123 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:06.759 that be? It was a great question, and that's what 124 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:11.160 started me on this journey that took me really now 125 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:13.439 all over the world doing these kind of cases. 126 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.759 Now you talk about. This was October ninety five, and 127 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:21.720 as you mentioned, you got a call from doctor thomasin 128 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.319 if I mispronounced her name, at the psychiatrist at Northport. 129 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.199 And you introduce your you introduce your partner, which is 130 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:31.759 a little bit different than you, and you describe both 131 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:35.360 your characters, but you guys are a dynamic partnership. Tell 132 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.920 us a little bit about this agent Tom Valerie. 133 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.480 Yeah, well, agent Tom Valerie and I were, you know, 134 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:45.279 the sort of polar opposites in a lot of respects. 135 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:50.439 Tom was really a rough and tough you know. He 136 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:54.160 was a volunteer fireman. He was incredible. He would fight 137 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:56.480 a fire all night and then change his clothes and 138 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.199 come to work the next day. He's actually the kind 139 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:00.959 of guy that you'd want to have if you were 140 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.959 in a fox hole. And me, I'm a little different. 141 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.160 I'm more of your white collar crime Brooks Brothers dress 142 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:12.399 type of investigator, you know, more of a scientific approach 143 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.680 than He's more of a dirty Harry and I was 144 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:16.920 more of a Colombo I think would be the easiest 145 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:18.319 way to describe it. 146 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:23.360 Yeah, Now, you guys had he had mentioned to you 147 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.360 and you had missed this program. But we talked about 148 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.920 this program that was on twenty twenty, I believe. But 149 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.519 they talked about that this double O Swango license to 150 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.799 Kill doctor Death, and they were talking about killing patients 151 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.919 at this hospital, and they mentioned about the poisoning of 152 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:46.120 paramedics previously. Now with that, you said your duty was 153 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:50.600 to get the bottom of the Swango story. What's the 154 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:52.799 first thing you did? You talk about meeting up with 155 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:57.360 the VA police chief. Tell us what you did first 156 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.799 in this duty to get to the bottom of the 157 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:01.679 swangle story. 158 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.159 Well, the first thing I did I grabbed harm and 159 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.000 I said, well, let's hop in the car. We were 160 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.720 in Manhattan. Let's hop in the car and go out 161 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:14.600 and meet this guy. So we go to his dorm room, 162 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:20.919 and I'll tell you something. He was an incredibly handsome, charming, 163 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:26.679 personable sociopath. You know, if I didn't know better, i'd 164 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.200 want to introduce him to my own daughter. He was 165 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:33.440 a handsome x marine doctor. Seemed like a perfect catch, 166 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.679 you know, And so we started asking him, was saying, 167 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:40.919 you know, we heard, we got information that you were actually, 168 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.519 you know, in prison for poisoning people. And he starts 169 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:47.279 going this routine Oh no, no, no, no, you know, 170 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.679 that's just media hype. It's not true. I was actually 171 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.159 in jail. 172 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:52.399 You know. 173 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.600 I was a tough ex marine, and I got in 174 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.679 the bar and brawl. But the governor of the state 175 00:09:57.799 --> 00:10:02.080 actually restored my civil rights. And he was so cool 176 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.320 and so charming. He was actually a little too cool 177 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:08.200 and too charming. And Tom and I are looking at 178 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:11.519 each other and we're going this is something not right here. 179 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:15.679 This guy is just too cool and too charming. So 180 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:19.080 we left because we didn't have any evidence that he 181 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:23.000 actually harmed anybody at the VA hospital, and we try 182 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.360 to get a search warrant, but the US attorney at 183 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.039 the time said, well, well, you know, Bruce, you don't have 184 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.440 any evidence that anybody was harmed in Northport. Well, the 185 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.960 next thing, you know, Swango leaves. We don't know where 186 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.360 he went. Turned up in Africa, turned up in Zimbabwe, Africa. 187 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.159 And when he's in Zabwe in Zimbabwe, he killed women 188 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:51.559 and children and pregnant women. Really everybody was sort of 189 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.639 just the target of opportunity for him. And then we 190 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.519 started to do his whole background investigation, So who is 191 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.720 this guy and how did he get to us after 192 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:06.320 spending time in jail for poisoning people. I couldn't believe 193 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.919 it that we could actually hire a doctor who spent 194 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:12.480 years in prison for poisoning his coworkers. It seems like 195 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.960 an impossible story that nobody would believe. But when you 196 00:11:16.039 --> 00:11:19.600 start to look in the background of Michael Swango, it's 197 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.360 very very scary. You know, it actually starts when he 198 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:27.600 was in a medical school in Southern Illinois University School 199 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:32.159 of Medicine, and he would visit patients and the patients 200 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:37.720 would just die unexpectedly. Nobody really made a big stink 201 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:41.320 of it. He just refused to believe that he was 202 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.120 actually responsible for patients coding well. He didn't really do 203 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.720 his homework too well, and they kept him in medical 204 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.679 school for a year longer. But you know, his fellow 205 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.000 students wrote a letter to the dean and they said, 206 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:59.240 you know, Dean, we don't think Swango should be a doctor. 207 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.759 Don't trust this guy. And Adan said, I don't care 208 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.960 what you think. You're only students. I'm the dean. We'll 209 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:08.080 keep this guy a little longer and we'll make him 210 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.480 a deal. We'll make him a doctor. So he becomes 211 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.240 a doctor. Next thing, you know, he does his internship 212 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:21.759 at Ohio State University and once again, patients start dying unexpectedly. 213 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.080 Now there was one particular patient. It's a very moving story. 214 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.879 Her name was Cynthia McGee. Cynthia McGhee was a young gymnast. 215 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.879 She actually got in a car accident. She was hit 216 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:38.080 by another student. She's improving until she gets a visit 217 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:41.320 from you know who, doctor Swango. Next thing. You know, 218 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:47.000 she dies unexpectedly. So the police go out and they 219 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.000 charge this other student who hit her in the car 220 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:56.000 with vehiculo homicide. But he didn't kill Cynthia McGhee. It 221 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:00.559 was actually Swangle that killed Cynthia McGhee. Well, the Ohio 222 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.200 state people started to look at some of the cases 223 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.840 that Swango was doing, but they couldn't develop enough evidence 224 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:12.559 to charge him with anything. So Swango leaves. He becomes 225 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.080 a paramedic. He goes back to his hometown of Quincy, Illinois. 226 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.080 He becomes a paramedic, and one day he invites the 227 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:25.080 paramedics in for donuts. You know, they worked hard at night, 228 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.600 they wanted to have donuts. So what he does is 229 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:33.039 he sprinkles arsenic on the donuts and leaves. Then they 230 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:36.120 all get sick, and he starts calling up each one 231 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.120 of them. He wants to know all the details of 232 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.600 their sudden illness, Well, exactly what happened, and you know, 233 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:45.720 and then did you throw up, did you have stomach pains? 234 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.440 Did you have this? Did you have that? He was 235 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:53.240 actually sort of reliving the thrill of the experience of 236 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:57.120 these people getting sick. Well, these people were pretty smart 237 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.159 and they called the police, and the police did a 238 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.840 search warrant of his home and they found arsenic and 239 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.440 they found books on poisoning. So he got sentenced to 240 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.080 five years in jail. And you would say, well, that's 241 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.840 the last we're gonna have a hear of this guy. 242 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:16.559 Well not true, not true, because he came out of prison, 243 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:20.480 fooled around with some name changing there for a while, 244 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.879 and came up with this story, you know, being an 245 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:26.759 ex marine and he was in a barroom fight and 246 00:14:26.799 --> 00:14:29.240 he brings out this piece of paper showing that the 247 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:33.200 governor of the state of Virginia has restored his civil rights. 248 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.840 Everything was totally bogus. But back then, you know, pre 249 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:43.279 internet days especially, you know, physician credentialing was not like 250 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.000 it is today. And they said, okay, great, come on board. 251 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.840 We need doctors, we need doctors. And the next thing 252 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.759 you know, he's at a hospital out Wes and he's 253 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:56.519 doing great. He's doing great. He meets a young lady, 254 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.120 they get engaged. He actually makes the mistake of reapplying 255 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.320 for membership in the AMA, and the AMA discovers his 256 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.720 background and the next thing you know, everybody in the 257 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:13.559 town is talking about him. The radio shows talking about him. 258 00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:16.559 So it's time for him to leave again. And this 259 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:23.279 really affects his fiance. So his fiance leaves him, goes home, 260 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.759 goes back to mom and dad and said, you know, 261 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.679 I really love this Michael Swango. I feel so terrible. 262 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.960 I feel like my whole life is coming to an end. 263 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.799 So she goes to a park, takes out a gun 264 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:38.679 and blows the brains out right in the park. Well 265 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:41.559 you can't blame Swango for that, can you? Well, yes 266 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.240 you can, because even though the body was cremated, Mom 267 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.200 kept the lock of her hair and we had the 268 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:54.320 hair tested and it was loaded with arsenic. Swango was 269 00:15:54.399 --> 00:16:00.639 even poisoning his own fiance. Everybody for him a target 270 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:05.240 of opportunity. So then eventually he winds up in my hometown, 271 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:10.480 the Northport Via. Now what's really interesting here is at 272 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:15.080 the north Port Via he went for a residency and 273 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.600 gets in Watfield in psychiatry. So what does that mean. 274 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:22.480 That means that you have to go in front of 275 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:26.919 a board of trained psychiatrists and convince them more that 276 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:30.960 you should be in their residency program. And he was 277 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:36.519 such a smooth talker, so calm, so glib that he 278 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:41.519 fooled this entire board of trained psychiatrists and said, yeah, 279 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:44.120 come on the program. We love you. Come on on. 280 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.879 Next thing. He goes to the VA and that's where 281 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:52.639 he meets me. He goes to Africa, he kills people, 282 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:58.559 anybody and everybody he met. I think he either killed 283 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.159 to try to kill in Africa, and then he was 284 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.400 going to go on I think it was the Saudi Arabia, 285 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.680 but he had to get his passport renewed. So he 286 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:12.240 comes back to the United States and we arrested him, 287 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.599 but not for murder because we didn't have any proof 288 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.519 that he had murdered anybody at the VA. But we 289 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.519 had plenty of proof that he lied on his application 290 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:27.680 to the VA about being in prison for poisoning his coworkers. 291 00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:31.759 So he pled guilty to that and he got three 292 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.400 years in jail. Now we had a window of three 293 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.119 years to try to prove that he had killed people 294 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.880 at the VA hospital in Northport, and this became a 295 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.400 federal crime. And the reason why it's a federal crime 296 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:49.680 is because the VA hospital is on the exclusive it's 297 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.680 called the Exclusive Territory of the United States. It's like 298 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.759 a military base. So even though it's on Long Island. 299 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.200 It's a federal case because the VA hospital, but it 300 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.920 was on federal property. So what we did this is 301 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.079 when I first met doctor Michael Boden, Doctor Michael Boddam, 302 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:16.880 one of the world's pre eminent forensic medical examiners. And 303 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.319 I went to him and I said, Dr Bonnen, tell 304 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:23.880 you the truth. I've never done a homicide case. Never. 305 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.559 I'm basically a white collar crime guy. But I know 306 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:31.119 I've got a killer here. Can you help me? And 307 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:32.920 you know I met him up at the New York 308 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.839 State Police and the New York State Police they didn't 309 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.519 want to get involved in the case. But Michael Bonnen said, Bruce, 310 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.519 I'm your man. I'll do it with you and I'll 311 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:46.000 teach you. So I was fortunate enough to have as 312 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.960 my private tutor, you might say, you know, the world's 313 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.079 best forensic medical examiner. And he told me exactly what 314 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.079 to do. He says, Bruce, what we have to do. 315 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.559 We have to look at all the medical records of 316 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.240 all the patients that were at the VA Northboard at 317 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.519 the time that Swangle was there, and we have to 318 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.720 try to make a determination based on a review of 319 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:14.200 the medical records if any of these people died when 320 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.599 they should not have died. In other words, they did 321 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:21.480 not die from their direct disease processes. It was not 322 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.680 a natural death. It was a poisoning. And Michael Bonnan 323 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.559 describes natural death like this. He says, Bruce, natural death, 324 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.680 it's like if you set off a fan and the 325 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.839 blaze just gradually stop. But these people, he says, were 326 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.440 bright like a light bulb, and like you turned off 327 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.119 the light bulb in their dark. So they're bright one 328 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.039 minute and they're dark. And we found a number of 329 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:50.960 patients that were actually improving before they met Swango. The 330 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.200 family would go on vacation. They say, Okay, Dad, I'm 331 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.279 so glad to see you improving. You know, we're going 332 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.519 to Disney World. We'll see you when we come back, 333 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.319 only to get a call from Michael Swango that, you know, 334 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.400 Dad had expired unexpectedly. So what was the murder weapon? 335 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.240 That was not an easy thing to determine, all right. 336 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.519 We had to show that the deaths were consistent with 337 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.000 some sort of poisoning. In the case of Michael Swangle, 338 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.359 it was something called suck and choline. In the hospital, 339 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.759 they referred to it as sucks. What it is is 340 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.200 a drug that they give you if they want to 341 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.720 put a tube down you to intubate you. The other 342 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.920 drug is called epinephrine, which is adrenaline which will speed 343 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.240 up the heart. And we made a determination first by 344 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.559 reviewing the medical records that a number of patients, and 345 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:49.279 we narrowed it down to about three or four patients 346 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480 that died when they should have not have died. There 347 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.599 was no reason in the medical records to determine why 348 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.440 the patients died when they did. You know, a lot 349 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:01.000 of times if you have a family one in the hospital, 350 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.799 they're really sick, you know, you know that they're going 351 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.279 to pass. The staff knows that they're going to pass. 352 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.680 It's not unexpected. But these people all died unexpectedly. Well, 353 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:13.920 the next thing we had to do after looking at 354 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.839 the medical records, we had to exhume the bodies. Now, 355 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.880 I had never done anything like this before in my life. Okay, 356 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:28.000 next thing I know, we're ringing the doorbells of other 357 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.400 family members and were saying, you know, and missus Jones, 358 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.880 I'm from the VA. I'd like to have your permission 359 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.359 to exhume your father's body from the cemetery because we 360 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.720 think some foul play has happened. Could you imagine getting 361 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:47.720 a visit like that. You imagine hearing something like that. Incredible. 362 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:50.160 But the people were super nice. They were really nice, 363 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.759 and they said okay, you know, okay, but we had 364 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.319 a court order anyway. So next thing, you know, for 365 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.119 the first time, I found myself in a cemetery and 366 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:02.079 there's a back hole, and the back hole is moving 367 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.440 all the dirt, and then all of a sudden, you know, 368 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.920 there's a crane and it comes in. It picks up 369 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.640 the coffin from the ground. I had never done anything 370 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.720 like this. I'm looking at my partner. I was going, boy, 371 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:17.079 we really started that he had, didn't we. Next thing, 372 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.279 I see Michael Bonden jumps into the ground where the 373 00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:24.440 coffin had been, and he's taking soil samples and I'm saying, 374 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.240 doctor Bondon, what is that for. He says, well, you know, Bruce, 375 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.599 if there's arsenic in the soil and we find arsenic 376 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.680 in the body, they're gonna claim that the arsenic from 377 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.680 the soil kind of seeped into the body and that's 378 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:40.279 why there's arsenic in the body, not because the poisoning. 379 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.359 So we take the body to the local medical examiner, 380 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.160 and I had never been in a morgue before, and 381 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.960 he saw people cut up in various states. And the 382 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.119 next thing you know, we're opening up the coffin and 383 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.240 we pull the body up and Michael Boden and the 384 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:03.200 local medical examining it examiner around on Long Island. His 385 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.440 name was doctor Charles Wetley. And I'm just sitting there 386 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.440 watching and learning, and they're cutting the body open and 387 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:14.559 they're examining parts, and they made a determination that these 388 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:18.279 people did not die from what was on their death certificate, 389 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:23.880 which is almost always the same being myocardial and function 390 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.279 or some sort of heart ailment. And doctor Biden said, 391 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:29.680 there's nothing wrong with this guy's heart. Look at that, 392 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:31.319 and you take it out and you show it to 393 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:34.440 me like I knew what I was looking at. And okay, 394 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.039 do you say that. You know here the first time 395 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.359 anybody handed a heart to me, and he's showing me this, 396 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.640 and then he said, no, look, Bruce, we have to 397 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:48.039 do the toxicology and that's going to take time because 398 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.200 we I'm pretty certain that these people were poisoned and 399 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:55.519 it looks like it's consistent with either an epinephrine or 400 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.279 a suxonal colling. And that's when I met doctor Readers 401 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:05.759