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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the

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social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway

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Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're.

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Speaker 4: Joined today by Francie Haiks, host of Best Case, Worst Case,

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and a former state and federal prosecutor. Francie Pink, Thank

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you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

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Speaker 4: Can you start by telling us about your personal and

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professional background? Please?

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Absolutely. I grew up here just outside of Atlanta

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in a small bedroom community of Atlanta called Marietta, and

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I was fortunate to go to the same school system

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my entire life pretty much through first through twelfth grade.

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And then I went to the University of Georgia and

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I graduated from there with a degree in political science.

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And I went on to law school and graduated from

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Ohio Northern University Law School and became a prosecutor and

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became an assistant District Attorney in nineteen ninety six. And

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I worked as an assistant DA for six years and

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a couple of three different offices actually here in Georgia.

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Mostly I specialized in crimes against children, but I did

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a variety of different crime types. And then I got

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a job with the United States Attorney's Office in what's

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called the Northern District of Georgia also known as Atlanta,

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and became a federal prosecutor, which was a huge dream

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of mine. I worked on national security and crimes against

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children cases. I got to do a couple of what

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they call special details to Washington, d C. One where

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I worked on FISA warrants, that's the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance

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Act warrants, doing counter terrorism can counter espionage work with

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all the various agencies of the government in front of

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the fisaccord at the Department of Justice. Then the second

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time I went up to Washington, I was there for

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almost three years doing a couple of specialized details that

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focused on protecting children from child exploitation, and I got

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to do all kinds of it, really exciting, rewarding things.

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I got to brief the White House, I got to

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testify before Congress, I got to testify before the United

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States Sentencing Commission. I traveled all over the world doing

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liaison work. I helped write the first National Strategy for

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Child Exploitation Prevention Interdiction in the World for the United

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States of America, which was published to Congress in twenty ten.

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I left the Department of Justice in twenty twelve, and

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now I work in Hollywood for a production company. I

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still do a little teaching and training. I'm speaking as

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a matter of fact, coming up over in the UK

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in November, I'll be speaking to a male survivor conference.

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So I still do a fair bit of that, But

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mostly I work for a production company called XG Productions,

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and we produce audio documentaries. We produce television like America's

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Most Wanted we produce scripted television and we're working on movies.

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So my career has definitely taken a change, for sure.

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Speaker 2: In full disclosure, x G Productions co produced these series

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on the Colonial Parkway murders, which Oxygen decided to call

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the Lover's Lane Murders a couple of years ago with

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Jimmy Clementy and many of the people that work on

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your team now on the audio and television and film

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projects that you're working on.

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Speaker 5: I remember that I was at the company then when

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that was going on. I wasn't in in particular with

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Lover's Lane Murders, which was not the name that we

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all wanted, just to be right, that was not our idea.

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Speaker 2: We didn't get a vote.

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Speaker 5: And that's what I'm finding out that just like government,

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nothing you do is really yours. And if once you

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sell something to whoever the buyer the network is, they

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really decide everything after that and you just have to

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go along.

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Speaker 2: I found that the folks that write the checks, which

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in this example is NBC Universal and they own Oxygen,

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they're basically in the driver's seat, and the rest of

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us can fight for our perspective and try to make

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sure that the points of view that you wanted to

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get into the program are there. But at the end

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of the day, you're not really in the driver's seat.

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Speaker 5: No, definitely not in the driver's seat. I'm not sure

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you're even in the car.

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Speaker 2: At best. Maybe you're in the back of the bus.

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Speaker 5: No. I feel like you're running along behind the car,

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flailing your arms around, begging them to stop and listen

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to you. But that's just me.

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Speaker 2: I had a similar experience. I would say, So, did

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you always want to be a prosecutor?

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Speaker 5: I did. When I was five years old, my dad

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and I used to watch reruns of Perry Mason, and

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I always wanted to be Hamilton Burger, who was the

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prosecutor on the show, because to me, he was the

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exciting character. He was the one trying to put the

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bad guys in jail. It was really just his misfortune

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that he never ever seemed to have a bad guy

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to put in jail. It seemed he always got the

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wrong person. But when the right person was found by

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Perry Mason, Hamiltonburger always admitted, oh, I guess we got

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the wrong guy. Judge arrest that other person. So, for

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some reason, at five, it really made an impression on me,

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and yeah, I always wanted to be a prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: What would you say is like the most fulfilling or

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the most rewarding aspect of being a prosecutor, Like, at

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the end of the day, what was your I'm going

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back tomorrow and doing this again.

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Speaker 5: Of course, dealing with victims is a very special and

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difficult thing, So I would have to say that dealing

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with victims was I'm not sure you can really call

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that a favorite thing, because they're victims of crime. We've

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been through something terrible, and for some of the victims,

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something really horrifying, and so while that's very difficult, it

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can be very rewarding. Although there's a tremendous amount of pressure,

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at least that's what I put on myself, a tremendous

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amount of pressure to try to find a way to

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see that the person who'd hurt them was brought to justice.

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And just like with Hollywood, it's something that you're not

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really in the driver's seat of because you have to

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convince a jury occasionally a judge, but most of the time,

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you have to convince a jury of something that you

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know in your heart happened and is true. You have

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to convince them though, using the rules of evidence and

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calling witnesses and making arguments. You have to convince twelve people,

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all twelve people to agree that this one event happened.

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And I think that the courtroom was really my happy place.

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That was where I really loved to be. It was

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my office, That's where I felt the most at home.

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I don't know if you guys have ever seen the

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movie it's called from the starring Judd Nelson way back

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in the day. I highly recommend it. It's one of

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my favorite movies of all time. In that movie, jud Nelson,

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he's not a prosecutor, he's a civil attorney, but he

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became a lawyer because he wants to go to court

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and he's at this big law firm and he's like

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a junior associate, and so he never gets in the courtroom.

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And he's giving this speech once to his friends about

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how he just wants to get in the courtroom. He

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wants to pang on the tables, he wants to do

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something exciting, he wants to object, and it's all very dramatic,

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and then he finally gets a chance to do it.

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And that's really for me. Banging on the tables and

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throwing things in court. I guess you could say I

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channeled my inner drama queen pretty much every time I

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ever went into court, and it would be true. But

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I think that was the most rewarding thing, was convincing

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a jury that the guy in the doc deserved to

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go to jail. So that made me happy.

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Speaker 4: I love that.

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Speaker 2: What's the introduction? I know you were a state's attorney

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and then a federal attorney. What's the introduction that you

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say when you first start? Do you say you represent

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the United States of America.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so when you stand up in state court here

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in Georgia, every state, of course, is different, you have

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to tell the court who you are and who you represent.

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And I would say Franci Haggs for the state. But

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when I got to the Federal Prosecutor's office, I was

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thrilled to stand up and say, Franci Haiks for the

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United States. I've never I still get chills when I

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say it. I miss it. I miss it every day.

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I miss being able to say Franci Haggs for the

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United States. But it was definitely a thrill and a

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real privilege to be able to do it for as

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long as I did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll second Kristen's Wow, I can't got the hair

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in the back of my neck stood up. I mean

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that you're representing the country and the people who live here.

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Speaker 5: It's a very sobering thing when it happens. It's thrilling,

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but also you feel the weight of it because there

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is a lot of power. Prosecutors have a lot of power,

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and it's a weighty thing that you have to take

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really seriously.

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Speaker 4: So, Francy, the place where a lot of our listeners

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may best know you from is your podcast Best Case

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Worst Case with my favorite person, Jim Clemente. I know

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sometimes you guys have a little bit of a contention.

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Speaker 5: Jim clash a little occasionally.

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Speaker 4: I adored Jim probably Jim fangirl. It's probably better that

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he doesn't know that much.

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Speaker 5: He's going to know it now.

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Speaker 2: He's going to know it now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, unless Bill takes it out, which I may ask

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him to.

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Speaker 2: That's it. It's in Baby Fantastic.

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Speaker 4: So talk to us a little bit about how you

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formed that partnership with Jim for Best Case, Worst Case.

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And you guys have been on the air for is

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it what four years now?

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Speaker 5: Since twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, so longer than that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, a long time. So when I left the Department

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of Justice, Jim and I had cross paths. We'd been

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at training events together. We'd never worked together, but we've

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been at training events together. And he left the FBI

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and somewhere around I want to say two thousand and

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eight or nine, I think that's right. And I left

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in twenty twelve and it was probably twenty thirteen or

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twenty fourteen when and I reached out to Jim on

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LinkedIn and just said, Hey, what are you up to.

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Here's what I'm doing. Let's get together sometime, because after

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you leave the government, you no longer have all your numbers,

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so the way that you connect with people is LinkedIn.

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He responded and said, Hey, I'm coming through Atlanta next week.

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Let's have dinner. So we did, and he told me

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that he had some work he was doing and he

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wondered if I could help him, and so I started

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reviewing stuff and doing a little bit of expert witness

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work with him, and then things at the production company

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really started picking up, and he said, I'd really like

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you to help me at the production company, but first

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I have an idea for a new podcast, and I said,

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what's a podcast? Had absolutely no idea at that point.

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He had Real Crime Profile. It was already up and

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running and had been up for maybe a year, but

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I still had no idea what a podcast was. So

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he explained to me what a podcast was, and he

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said he had an idea for one called Best Case,

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Worst Case, and he was looking for a co host.

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He thought I'd be perfect. And I was like, you mean,

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we're just going to sit and talk and people are

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going to listen to it. And he said, yes, that's

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exactly what's going to happen kind of sort of, and

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I said, no visuals, nothing, just talking. I just really

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had a hard time with the whole concept of the podcast.

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And so I remember very clearly because it was February

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of twenty when was the first crime Con. Actually at

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my twenty seventeen I think it was February of twenty

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seventeen when Jim said, come out to my house, let's

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record the first let's go put in the bank like

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eight episodes of Best Case, Worst Case and we'll launch

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it at crime Con. And I was going to go

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with them to Crime Con. That was that June of

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twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: So does that so was that the first one in Indianapolis?

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, I remember seeing you in Nashville. I do

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remember that one.

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Speaker 5: That was the second crime That was the second one, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I remember talking to Jim about the fact

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that you guys were going to the first crime Con,

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and of course the question at that time was what's

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crime con too?

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Speaker 5: Exactly?

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Speaker 2: So exactly the podcast and launched at crime Con.

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Speaker 5: We did, In fact, we had we launched the first

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two episodes on the first day of Crime Con, and

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I think it might have been the second day when

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we did a live podcast recording and that ended up

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we dropped it as even though we'd already recorded eight.

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We dropped it as episode three, and it was our

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interview with Bobby chacohone, oh wow, that's right, but Bobby

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Chicon talking about his experience on nine to eleven. So

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our first, our very first episode was one of my

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very first cases as a prosecutor, the Watson case in

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the DA's office in Columbus, a terrible child abuse case.

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Our second podcast was a case of gyms, and then

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our third live recorded live at crime Con with live

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questions and everything was with Bobby Chaconne talking about nine

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to eleven, and we've I think we're over three hundred

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and something episodes.

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Speaker 2: Now, wow, Now what was the atmosphere like? You were

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still moving out your thing, I would imagine with Jim

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by that point, and then you decide to go to

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a live event and have Bobby Chicone join you. Did

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the dynamic feel really different? Was there a live audience?

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Speaker 5: There was a live audience. There were probably one hundred

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and fifty people in the room.

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Speaker 2: I think, wow, what did it feel like doing that

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as opposed to going to Jim's house and knocking out age?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that was a lot different. Listen, I've been speaking

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public speaking my whole career, so public speaking doesn't scare me.

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That doesn't mean I don't get anxious, but it doesn't

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scare me. But it was a weird thing to think

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that we're going to sit on a stage at a

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table with microphones and interview Bobby in front of people.

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And I just could not wrap my mind around why

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are people interested in this? I just don't understand. It

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just seemed really weird. But that first episode of Best Case,

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Worst Case right now has something like one hundred and

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eighty thousand downloads. Wow, we're well over fourteen million total downloads.

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Speaker 2: Now and crazy.

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Speaker 5: Still to this day, I have to admit, it's still

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super bizarre to me that people want to listen to

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anything that I say weird times to Yeah, it seems weird,

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it does. It seems it does seem super weird to me.

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It's I'm humbled by it. I'm excited about it. I

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love talking. First, I'm a Southern woman, so of course

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I like talking. But secondly, I'm a born prosecutor, so

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I love talking, and mostly I love talking about crime.

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I love the podcast because I like interviewing people about

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their cases. I think it's interesting. I find crime. Of course,

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it was my whole career and still is to this day.

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So crime to me is fascinating. And humanizing the people

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behind some of these incredible cases was Jim's original goal

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and then of course mine when I joined on, to

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humanize the work of law enforcement who are doing really incredible, difficult,

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terrible things. I tell people, I used to think that

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the hardest thing I would ever have to do would

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be to sit in my office and listen to a

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child tell me about the sex abuse that they had suffered,

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and that was horrible. That was a horrible thing to

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go through time and time again. But it was worse.

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It was far worse when I had to look at

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child pornography as a federal prosecutor, because you're not listening

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to a child tell you what happened, You're watching it happen,

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and it's horrendous and it's just in your head. And

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these images are just horrifying. You see just the things

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that people will do to little children. Just you can't, like,

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you just can't understand it. You can almost understand why

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a drug dealer would shoot another drug dealer over like territory,

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if that makes sense. It's wrong. Clearly, it's evil. I

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don't mean it's not, but it's understandable at least. But

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you look at child sexual abuse and you just think

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to yourself, how is this? How does anyone do this?

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How is this happening? And so that's definitely the hardest

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thing I ever had to do. And I think that

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for me, best case, worst case is a way, and

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every time I speak to people is a way to

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remind the citizens that there are people who are sitting

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behind a desk right now. For every hour, every minute

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of every day doing that work, suffering that secondary trauma

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because they want to put the bad guys in jail.

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Right now, it's not very fashionable to talk about putting

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the bad guys in jail, because it's much more fashionable

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to talk about letting the bad guys out of jail.

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I'm against it. I am just against it. I don't

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think that makes me very politically correct right now, but

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I will always be for the victims and always be

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against the bad guys. And I'm someone who thinks that

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child sex offenders should never get out of jail. There

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is not enough time that you can spend in jail.

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I don't care what happens to you in there, as

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far as oh, you're redeemed, fine, redeem yourself and sit

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in prison. To me, that's just what I believe. But

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so that's an important message that I try to convey.

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Speaker 2: I think are there places in the trajectory of best

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case worst case that are still difficult. In other words,

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I was thinking about even the example you brought up

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a moment ago, Francy. It's you and Jim and Bobby

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Shacone talking about Bobby's experiences on nine to eleven, and

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we interviewed Bobby about nine to eleven, and as a

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former New Yorker who was living in New York on

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nine to eleven, he was such a great storyteller. But

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I found myself drawn into and going through some of

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the same emotion we all felt that day. So the

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topics are very serious. Is it sometimes a struggle to

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talk about these things with people that they lived them,

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they investigated, they prosecuted, they did something. It's very difficult work.

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Is it hard for you and them to revisit?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Sometimes I think it is. Although I think one

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of the things I learned from some of the people

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who do counseling for first responders is that sharing the

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trauma lessons it sharing it makes it just a tiny

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bit better. And I think that's what a lot of

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people find when they come in and talk about their cases.

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So I've talked about some of my cases. General interview

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me about some of my cases occasionally, and you do

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find that you feel emotional when it's appropriate to feel

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emotional because you don't have I think for me, I

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don't really quite have that barrier I used to like

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when I look back and think about what I used

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to do for a living, and how difficult it was

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to look at child pornography and to prosecute these cases

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and have to deal with that kind of just the

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vile dregs of humanity. It's like I feel like it

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steals a little piece of your soul, or maybe I

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feel like it blackens a little piece of your soul

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where you just can't really get that off. It's like

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smut that you can't get rid of because it just

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stains you. It stains you, and I think you have

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a bit of a shield when you're doing the work,

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or you couldn't do the work. And I don't have

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a shield anymore. Sometimes talking to people about it or

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even revisiting my own cases in my own mind are

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much more difficult and much more raw now than they

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were then. So yeah, sometimes Bill, I think they do

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waken that difficult to deal with kind of emotion.

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Speaker 4: You guys have done some amazing work over the last

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couple of years with audible presentations at x G. Everything

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that you guys have done I've listened to multiple times

385
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and I have.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you so much, that's so nice for

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you to say.

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Speaker 4: And I finished listening to Midwest Monster the other day,

389
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which is your newest That was difficult to listen to,

390
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,240
but boy, it is worthwhile to listen to. So for

391
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anybody who may not be familiar with the Kansas College rapist,

392
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which is the case which is the basis for Midwest Monster,

393
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can you just give us a quick thumbnail sketch of

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the Kansas College rapist.

395
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Speaker 5: Of course, I certainly would encourage anyone who wants to

396
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know more about this case to go to audible dot

397
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com and look up Midwest Monster and listen for yourself.

398
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It's about two and a half three hours. It's an

399
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,480
incredible case that started a couple of decades ago when

400
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a young woman on a college campus there in Kansas.

401
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There was Kansas State and University of Kansas, and a

402
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young woman on one of the campuses had her apartment invaded.

403
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She lived just off campus, and she had her apartment

404
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invaded and she was raped. And it was a brutal

405
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attack by a man wearing a mask and gloves and

406
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who had shaved all his body hair. He had a

407
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gun and he set up a video camera. And after

408
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these this rape, he made her go to the bathroom

409
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and brush her teeth and then flush her toothbrush and

410
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then take a shower, and he watched her in the

411
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shower so that she to make sure she had cleaned

412
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all of herself off of any obviously he was. These

413
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were forensic countermeasures before he left. And this serial rapist

414
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continued this pattern for years, and the last known attack

415
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was in twenty fifteen there in Kansas, and there are

416
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,440
a total of fourteen fourteen or fifteen victims, and it's

417
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,000
just a horrendous series. But we have two of the survivors.

418
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I'll call them Abby and Beth because those are the

419
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:03,720
names that we used and the project. Those are not

420
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:07,880
their real names. There are so incredibly brave. I'm still

421
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in touch with them today. We text, and they were

422
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,799
so brave to come forward and tell their stories in

423
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detail what happened to them. They have not just survived,

424
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but thrived in the two decades really since then. They

425
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are incredible young women, Abby and Beth, and I admire

426
00:21:25,279 --> 00:21:28,480
them tremendously. And the reason that they agreed to sit

427
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in and be interviewed for Midwest Monster was in the

428
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hopes that what something they say, something any of the

429
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other people that we interview say might trigger a memory

430
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,279
or flag something for someone into recognizing who this offender

431
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is because he is still uncaught. He's not just uncaught,

432
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he's unidentified Kristin, and that, to me was the biggest

433
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reason we wanted to bring this forward. And we had

434
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to do some I had to do, in particular, some

435
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,359
really fancy dancing to the police departments there to get

436
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,680
them to talk to us, because it's an unsold case

437
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,599
for twenty years, and they feel responsible for that. They

438
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,480
feel horrible that it hasn't been solved yet, and I

439
00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:12,440
think they were afraid that we were going to be

440
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,279
pointing fingers at them and passing a bad judgment. But

441
00:22:16,839 --> 00:22:20,799
it's just a fact that this guy was very forensically sophisticated,

442
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,119
and they have done just yeoman's work in trying to

443
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,920
figure out who this person is. They've done thousands of interviews,

444
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,319
they've developed literally over a thousand different suspects, and it's

445
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,839
just not happened yet. They've just not been able to

446
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:38,880
solve the case. And so our hope is that the

447
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more people that listen to Midwest Monster, the more people

448
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,079
will hear profiler doctor Mike Burham, the survivors themselves, and

449
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,519
the other police officers talking about this offender, who he is,

450
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,400
who he likely is in his life, what he was

451
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,640
doing at these various times that might trigger partner, a wife, child,

452
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and aunt a parent to remember something unusual about this offender.

453
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So I hope that this project can help identify the

454
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,000
Midwest Monster.

455
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Speaker 2: The law enforcement people are usually incredibly reluctant to get

456
00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:20,200
into any kind of lengthy discussion about an unsolved case.

457
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,039
How did you really? I know you said you did

458
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,720
some fancy dancing, but usually the answer to questions like that,

459
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,640
will you do an interview with us is just a

460
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,440
flat out no. It's an open case. What do you

461
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,279
think was different about it? Was it the team or

462
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:38,359
your approach that allowed them to open up more?

463
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Speaker 5: I think, Bill, you're asking me to give away my secrets?

464
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Speaker 2: Oh, the trade secrets.

465
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Speaker 4: No.

466
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Speaker 5: I think that's a great question. Did they did tell me? No?

467
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,119
I figured, I just I don't take no. That's not

468
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,200
really just ask my dad or my husband. It's not

469
00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:00,160
really a word I liked here, and so I I

470
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,519
just didn't let it stop me, and I kept asking them.

471
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:05,039
I think the truth of the matter is that I

472
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,880
tried very hard my entire career to be a good prosecutor.

473
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,000
And I think I like to think anyways sort of

474
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,000
self congratulatory, but I like to think that I built

475
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,240
a very solid reputation as a pro law enforcement prosecutor,

476
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:22,319
and I'm still a very pro law enforcement and I

477
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,759
always will be a person. That doesn't mean I won't

478
00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:27,160
call out bad conduct, because I do, but I'm very

479
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,519
pro law enforcement as a person, and I think that reputation.

480
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,599
I have to say the US Marshals were tremendously helpful.

481
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,119
Doctor Mike Berg is a personal friend of mine and

482
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,440
he worked on the case, and so he was able

483
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,000
to vouch for me with them and make sure that

484
00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:44,799
the police understood that our perspective was not anti cop,

485
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,960
that we weren't there to point fingers, that we honestly

486
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:51,519
and truly wanted to present something to the public that

487
00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:55,640
might help solve the case. And ultimately it's not about me.

488
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,720
It's to their credit because they really want to solve

489
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:02,640
the case. They've tried everything, canines, every scientific test you

490
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,000
can think of, profiling multiple times of course, a million

491
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:08,920
man hours of interviews, impounding the pavement, and I think

492
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,319
they just in the end decided that getting a lot

493
00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:15,200
more people to listen to the case might help them

494
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,680
find a clue that can eventually solve it. They just

495
00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:19,119
really want to solve the case.

496
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:23,519
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back

497
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:33,960
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

498
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:34,960
mindover Murder.

499
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 4: So you assigned on Paget Brewster, who most people will

500
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,000
know is from Criminal Minds. She's my favorite character.

501
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,839
Speaker 5: She plays Emily Prentiss.

502
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,559
Speaker 4: Love her to death. Why was it important to you

503
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,920
that she be the storyteller for this piece?

504
00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 5: I love her. I think that Paget is a one First,

505
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,039
she's a great actress, of course, but most importantly, she

506
00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:02,039
is a lovely human being. And it was a real

507
00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:04,279
thrill to me. I got to meet her when Jim

508
00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:07,039
and I we had her on Best Case, Worst Case.

509
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:09,480
We interviewed her on one of our episodes of Best Case,

510
00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:11,519
Worst Case, and we went to our house to do it,

511
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,599
and so I actually got to meet her in person.

512
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,599
I've got a photograph with her. And by the way,

513
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,079
nobody wants to take a picture next to a Hollywood actress.

514
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,319
It's not good. Talk about humbling. No matter how good

515
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,640
you think you look, you're standing next to an actress

516
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,920
and you look crappy. That's a judging moment for me.

517
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,559
But anyway, she's was just lovely and friendly and you know,

518
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,720
thank me for my service for goodness sakes. And so

519
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,319
when the time came to figure out who we wanted

520
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:38,119
to narrate on my list was one person and it

521
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,880
was Paget. And of course she and Jim are longtime friends.

522
00:26:42,079 --> 00:26:45,039
And Jim told her about the project and said that

523
00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:47,480
I was executive producing and writing it and would she

524
00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:50,519
consider And she didn't even think twice about it. Wow,

525
00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:54,599
she said absolutely yes. Cool And so she was just

526
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,279
the sweetest thing. And I got to direct her to

527
00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:01,039
do the narration and it was a love experience. She

528
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,720
is so professional and so good at what she does,

529
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,440
not to mention, just has a great voice. And I

530
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:09,200
was thrilled that she agreed to do it.

531
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,279
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself saying I'm sorry, Paget, that just

532
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,960
wasn't good enough? Could you go? Could you take that

533
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:15,759
one more time?

534
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 5: Even though I'm a bit of a bull in a

535
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,880
china shop, Bill, I do have a bit of a

536
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,799
filter as well when necessary. No, you never tell them

537
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,799
you don't like it. All you say is could you

538
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:29,240
do that one more time? And this time, let's try

539
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,960
with the emphasis on the end.

540
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,079
Speaker 1: There we go.

541
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 5: That's how you do it.

542
00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:36,559
Speaker 2: Duly noted, Hey, she rarely.

543
00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:39,559
Speaker 5: I'd admit, she doesn't really need very much direction. She

544
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:42,440
does a ton, She's won awards, she does a ton

545
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,319
of voiceover work already, So she was telling me what

546
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,240
the best thing was.

547
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,039
Speaker 2: On a more serious note, one of the things I

548
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:53,119
think is most chilling about the Kansas College rapist case

549
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:57,440
are the forensic countermeasures. And you use that expression, which

550
00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:01,759
always just chills my bones. What did you make of

551
00:28:01,799 --> 00:28:04,759
that when you were looking through the details of the case.

552
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,319
How is this rapist understanding all of the steps that

553
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,119
he might need to take to try to minimize his exposure.

554
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,720
From a scientific person, that's.

555
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 5: A really interesting question, Bill. I have to go back

556
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,640
to as a prosecutor away back in the day when

557
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,400
the television show CSI first came out, Remember was set

558
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,920
in Vegas, the first crime show that really went in

559
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:31,720
depth into the world of the crime scene technicians crime

560
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,119
scene investigators as they called it. There was nothing about

561
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,720
that show that it was realistic. It was entertaining, but

562
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:42,200
it was complete fiction, just utter bunk. And as a prosecutor,

563
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,279
I literally hated it because they would say things on

564
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:50,000
the show like I can always find DNA, and I'm

565
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,440
thinking to myself, I can't. We can't really why in

566
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:56,839
Georgia we can't always find DNA and what we do

567
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,519
we can't test at all, So stop say things like

568
00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:03,000
that to be or there's always a fingerprint, No there's not. No,

569
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,680
there's not always a fingerprint. So those kind of generalizations

570
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:13,519
made the consumer who sits on juries simply absurdly demanding

571
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,160
because they wanted things that did not exist. But the

572
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,119
other thing that those shows did, I think is teach

573
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:26,880
They taught offenders how to evade, because they made them

574
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,559
see realistically or unrealistically, what forensics really was and what

575
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,160
it was capable of. And now listen, they rarely had

576
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,400
anything on there that was completely out of the realm

577
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,759
of anything you know that is high tech currently available.

578
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,240
But those things I remember one time, this was a

579
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,079
long time ago, I remember seeing a scene where they

580
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,920
tented it separate that super glue stuff. Nobody had that

581
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,599
that was in like one lab in the country, and

582
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,359
it cost an outrageous amount of money and unless you

583
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,759
have the multiple murders, you couldn't do it. Because they

584
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:05,160
were so in demand. You couldn't get it, your crime

585
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,880
lab couldn't afford it. He just was ridiculous. But they

586
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,680
were constantly doing that, and so that glue tent and

587
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,759
everything made I think offenders think that the forensics was

588
00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:16,880
going to get them, and so I think people like

589
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:23,640
this Kansas college rapist understands that forensics would be his downfall,

590
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:28,319
and so he was taking these terribly sophisticated steps to

591
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,359
make sure that he left no forensics behind. And that's

592
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:35,359
just a shock, I think, to people to think that

593
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,640
a violent rapist could leave no forensic evidence behind, no DNA,

594
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:44,359
no trace, no prints. But that seems to be the case.

595
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,279
Speaker 4: One of the things that Midwest Monster got into, actually

596
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:50,920
the two major problems that they got into, is the

597
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,160
discussion of reporting rape and then prosecuting rape in America.

598
00:30:55,759 --> 00:30:57,359
One of the things that I took away from it

599
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,920
is the fact that it is the most massively underreported

600
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,119
is crime. I knew it, but I hated hearing it again.

601
00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:05,400
And you spend a lot of time talking about the

602
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,240
major problem prosecuting it can be due to this concept

603
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,640
called statute of limitations that maybe not everybody is familiar

604
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,720
with so can you give a brief rindown of what

605
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:16,640
statutes of limitation are and that what does that mean

606
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,519
for people who want to hold rapeist accountable for their crimes.

607
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, rape and child sexual abuse are the most underreported

608
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,680
crimes in the country, and the estimates of underreporting for

609
00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:29,519
rape are around as much as fifty percent, So that

610
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:33,480
means we're only getting about fifty percent of reports of

611
00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,200
women who are being raped. Men and women, but mostly

612
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,480
women who are being raped. Unfortunately, unlike murder, rape was

613
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,720
a crime for a long time that had what's called

614
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,640
a statuteal limitation. Most cases have what's called a statutal limitation,

615
00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:51,920
and that means there is a limit on the time

616
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,680
in which a prosecutor is allowed to bring a case.

617
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,359
So if in the year two thousand a crime is committed,

618
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,480
say it's a bank robbery, a crime is committed and

619
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:04,960
nobody finds the offender, they don't solve the case for

620
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,079
twenty years. In the state of Georgia, that's just too late.

621
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,759
You needed to solve the crime earlier, and there's a

622
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:13,960
reason for that. It's not a random thing. The reason

623
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,400
is because if you hauled the defendant into court right now,

624
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,960
today in twenty twenty two for a bank robbery that

625
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,759
you allege he committed in the year two thousand. What

626
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,839
is his defense if it's say, oh, I was out

627
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:29,599
of town that day. I couldn't have robbed this bank

628
00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:33,839
in downtown Atlanta. I was in Florida on business. It's

629
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,880
twenty two years ago. Who has records still and he

630
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,440
prove it? Does anyone even remember? Does he even remember

631
00:32:40,799 --> 00:32:44,599
where he was twenty two years ago on a specific night.

632
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,200
And so the idea of the statute of limitations is

633
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:52,680
really all about fundamental fairness, because our system is designed

634
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,000
to be fair to the accused, because the government has

635
00:32:56,039 --> 00:32:58,759
a lot of power, and so the accused needs to

636
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:03,200
be given sir rights so that he can fight the

637
00:33:03,319 --> 00:33:09,519
charges meaningfully. And that includes a time limit because witnesses die,

638
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,960
paper gets lost, evidence is too old, witnesses memories are

639
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,759
no longer good. And so for all those reasons, we

640
00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:21,599
have statutes of limitations for most crimes. It's not we

641
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,960
don't have it for murder in any state. And slowly

642
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,880
the states are starting to understand that sexual crimes like

643
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,480
rape and child abuse should be in that category. One

644
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:35,799
of the things we found out on Midwest Monster. In

645
00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:38,799
the state of Kansas, for example, was that for many

646
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,960
years until very recently, their statute of limitations for rape

647
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,839
was five years. So an offender had to be identified

648
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,799
and brought into court within five years of the offense.

649
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,759
So it's not within five years of you discovering some

650
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,480
new technology or new evidence. No, No, within five years

651
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,440
of the crime, and so that caused all sorts of problems.

652
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,799
Now they've ex end of their statute of limitations now

653
00:34:01,839 --> 00:34:05,119
in Kansas, but many other states. I think Hawaii was

654
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,480
an example that I looked up when we were getting

655
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:11,440
this whole Midwest Monster into production. Hawaii had a five

656
00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:14,440
or seven year statute of limitations, and so there are

657
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,559
still states in this country with relatively short statutes of

658
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,079
limitations for raven I just think it's terrible because if

659
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:24,039
the offender is like like this one in Midwest Monster,

660
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,679
if he can stay away long enough, if he can

661
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,239
avoid capture long enough, he'll never be held accountable for

662
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,119
what he did. And I think that's horrifying.

663
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: It seems to take the air out of the excitement

664
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,000
that many of us feel. We're seeing forensic genetic genealogy

665
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:44,519
being used to solve so many serious sexual assaults, murders

666
00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:49,119
and so on. But if the statute of limitations has expired,

667
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,559
then we're out of luck. And now obviously for a

668
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,920
murder case, as you said, it doesn't apply. But it's

669
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,360
so disheartening to find out that we've finally identified a perpetrator,

670
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,760
an offender in a terrible series of sexual assaults in

671
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,920
this example. It's so heartbreaking to find out that some

672
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:15,679
states haven't found a way to create a longer appropriate.

673
00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:17,559
Speaker 5: Period of It's so difficult, Bill, because you've got this

674
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,199
balance right. There has to be balanced in the system.

675
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,480
You've got to be fair to offenders or too accused anyway.

676
00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:25,639
I guess they're not an offender, so they're convicted, but

677
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,440
we have to be fair to the accused. It's why

678
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,519
we It's one of the reasons we left King George

679
00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:33,440
and England way back in the day, because trials were

680
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,199
not fair. People were being thrown in prison without knowing

681
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,039
the evidence against them or hearing witnesses. They didn't have

682
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:42,840
any right to attorneys and all that stuff. You also

683
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,480
have to be fair to victims, but there's no question

684
00:35:46,039 --> 00:35:48,719
that in this sort of triad, if you will, the

685
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,920
triad between the government, the accused, and the victim. The

686
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000
victim just gets completely disregarded in almost every way. Look

687
00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:00,000
at the Jeffrey Epstein case for example, the federal government,

688
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,920
my own brethren, in the US Attorney's office down in

689
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,760
South Florida, they had the case and they made a

690
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,719
deal with Epstein. They signed a non prosecution agreement without

691
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,840
ever telling the victims. Now, that was completely and one

692
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,079
hundred percent in violation of the Crime Victim's Rights Act,

693
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,159
which gives them the right to meaningful consultation with the prosecutor,

694
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,679
to notice of anything that's going to dismiss the charges

695
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,679
or result of a plea or a trial. But they

696
00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:33,079
were completely disregarded. And what is the remedy right? So

697
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:36,880
they have these rights, but the rights don't have any teeth,

698
00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:42,079
because without teeth, prosecutors, to my shame, can just disregard them.

699
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:44,559
And so victims can be given very short trift in

700
00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:47,760
our system because it's not victims whose freedom is going

701
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,199
to be taken away, it's the accused. And so they

702
00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:52,000
have to have rights to fight. They have rights to

703
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,039
an attorney and rights all the evidence, and you can't

704
00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:57,719
do trial by ambush. But what about the victim. What

705
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,400
right does the victim have? They have rights listed in statute.

706
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,719
I'm working on something right now out of California. And

707
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,960
there was a serious case of child abuse that went

708
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,199
on at a daycare center and the offender gets arrested

709
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,480
and the child's parents, a child was only four years old,

710
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:17,000
and the child's parents were never even contacted and told

711
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:19,119
that the offender is getting out of jail, that he

712
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:20,639
was only held for a couple of days, and then

713
00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:22,840
gets out and there they see him, he's wandering around

714
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,480
in the community.

715
00:37:23,559 --> 00:37:25,159
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

716
00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:27,599
Speaker 5: And in California, they have a right to know, they

717
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:29,679
have a right to meaningful consultation, they have a right

718
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,079
to know specifically that someone is going to make a

719
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:34,320
bond or someone is going to be released from jail.

720
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,280
And they just didn't get any notification. Nobody cared why,

721
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,679
because there's no teeth in these provisions. There's no remedy

722
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,079
when they're violated. Nobody pays a price. Nobody. There's not

723
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:49,079
a fine, there's not a suspension, there's nothing for violating

724
00:37:49,159 --> 00:37:51,679
victims' rights. We have to do a much better job

725
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,280
in this country than we're doing right now.

726
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 4: I'd say the strongest component of Midwest Monster for me

727
00:37:56,599 --> 00:37:59,440
as a listener is the fact that you have showcased

728
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:01,960
women and you referred to them earlier as Abby and Beth,

729
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:05,400
who are refusing to let being rape victims ruin their lives.

730
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,480
They're discussing how to heal, how to move forward from trauma.

731
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,320
What is the message that you want women who have

732
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,039
been victims of rape and sexual assault to know about

733
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:16,079
healing from trauma.

734
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:19,199
Speaker 5: That's a great question, Chris, and I think that for me,

735
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:23,360
the most important thing to remember is that you're alive.

736
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:29,280
That's the most important thing. You have survived. You've already survived.

737
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,960
To me, what Abby and Bess said is so important.

738
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,480
To live your best life. That is the best revenge.

739
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:41,039
You do not want to spend your life thinking about

740
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:44,239
what happened to you, ruminating on it, marinating in it,

741
00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:45,440
because who wins.

742
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:46,519
Speaker 1: He does.

743
00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 5: He wins if that's your attitude going forward, And that

744
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:55,199
was not their attitude. They went back to school, They

745
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,000
went right back to the same place in spite of

746
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,400
what happened to them there, because they were determined that

747
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:04,960
he not win. And I think that's the best message

748
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:09,280
to survivors is don't let him win. By a focusing

749
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,880
on it the rest of your life. Because you have survived,

750
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,719
you can succeed in whatever you want to do because

751
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,400
you've survived that. And I think too, I want women

752
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,559
to think very long and hard about reporting these sexual assaults.

753
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,320
I know what I'm asking. I've had rape cases, lots

754
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,920
of rape cases, and they're very difficult cases to prosecute,

755
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:32,920
and you get dragged through the mud. We see it

756
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,960
all the time all over the news. Whenever there's an allegation,

757
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,880
especially against a famous person. What's the What's the first

758
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,840
thing they do is they absolutely start throwing darts at

759
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,440
the victim. She's a slut, she wanted it, it was consent,

760
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,119
she likes rough sex, all these different defenses. So yes,

761
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,480
it is not going to be an easy time. But

762
00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:55,800
I've had children that I've put on the witness stand

763
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,079
before that. When they testified and pointed out the offender

764
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,039
in front of the jury and left the courtroom, and

765
00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:04,280
I talked to them later. They looked me in the

766
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,920
eye and they said I saw him, and I pointed

767
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,840
at him. I did good, didn't I? And they took

768
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,599
that little bit of power right back. And I think

769
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,920
that holding that guy to account, and frankly this going

770
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,360
to sound terribly self defeating, but even if he doesn't

771
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,519
get convicted, you have put him through it to have

772
00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:25,559
let him know that you are not going to be quiet,

773
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,440
that he did not win, that he did not silence you,

774
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,920
and you're going to look him in the eye. By God,

775
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,840
whatever those twelve people do, you can't control, but you

776
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:39,320
can control how you react to it, and you can

777
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,639
control that you can face him in the courtroom and

778
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,800
make bye damn sure that jury's going to know your

779
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,599
story and not his.

780
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,519
Speaker 2: Did you ever talk about the possibility that this offender

781
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:57,400
in the Midwest Monster series might actually end up listening

782
00:40:57,519 --> 00:41:01,400
to the show. The show's incredibly popular, it's on Audible,

783
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:04,960
many of your other shows have done incredibly well. He

784
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,360
could be one of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people

785
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,239
listening to the show. Did you ever think to yourself,

786
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,639
he might actually hear this.

787
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,119
Speaker 5: We did. We talked about it, and I talked about

788
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:19,159
that specifically with Mike Burke and with Abby and Beth,

789
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:21,000
because of course that's one of the things they were

790
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:24,079
very concerned about. It's why we used a pseudonym. Those

791
00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:26,199
aren't their real names, because we want to make sure

792
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,360
that they're protected. But Mike Burke thought that there was

793
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,840
a real possibility that the offender would hear, and he

794
00:41:33,079 --> 00:41:37,320
hopes that listening and hearing Abby and Beth and knowing

795
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,920
how much time has passed might inspire this guy to

796
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,440
turn himself in. Mike Burke is a great, great psychologist,

797
00:41:45,639 --> 00:41:48,039
and I just think he's a bit of an optimist.

798
00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:51,000
I don't feel that optimistic about it. I think this

799
00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,119
guy is a violent predator and don't I can't see

800
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:58,599
him ever admitting his guilt, pleading guilty, or turning himself in.

801
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,719
It just doesn't seem that fits to me, with the

802
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,239
kind of person that he obviously is, the kind of

803
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,119
complete and utter scum that he obviously is, So I

804
00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:10,760
can't see that happening, but I certainly wish it would.

805
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,400
I hope, so. I hope he listens and by God

806
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,840
turns himself in. But I think it's much more likely

807
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,199
that someone who knows him will hear that behavior and

808
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,440
what went on in that time frame and in those

809
00:42:22,559 --> 00:42:25,440
time periods, and that where he must have been in

810
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:28,199
order to have access to these young women at these

811
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,039
two college campuses in Kansas, and will call the police.

812
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:34,639
And what I think is really likely is that this

813
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:37,199
guy has some kind of a partner, possibly a mother,

814
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,880
someone that he lives with, and he's got a storage

815
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,800
facility or a locked closet or a drawer that is

816
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,079
full of these videos of these horrific rates.

817
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: Oh I forgot.

818
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 5: Someone has got to know that. Yeah, someone has got

819
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:53,800
to know it. Either they've seen it, they've seen him

820
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,000
watching it, or it's there living with someone who has

821
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,320
a hidden room. I had a case once with an

822
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,719
offender who was offending against his or from the time

823
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,159
she was five at the time she was nine, and

824
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,800
he had a locked room that his wife wasn't allowed

825
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,599
to go in, And I thought to myself, what the

826
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,679
hell are you thinking? Why do you think that's okay?

827
00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:18,119
Why aren't you weirded out by the fact that your

828
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:21,280
spouse has a locked room you're not allowed to go in.

829
00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:24,400
It's not like he's a diamond merchant and you're not

830
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,719
allowed to go to where the diamonds are stored. It's crazy.

831
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,400
So I think this guy probably has that same kind

832
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,639
of thing, and someone who listens to Midwest Monster might think,

833
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:36,400
Oh my god, I wonder if that's what he has

834
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,639
in that locked room or that locked row, that storage facility.

835
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,079
I'm not allowed to go to fancy.

836
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 4: This has been an amazing series that you guys have

837
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,360
put together for Audible, but I know it's not the

838
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,559
only thing you're working on. Can you talk about what's

839
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:52,039
next for you in best case, worst case and anything

840
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:53,000
else you're doing with x G.

841
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,519
Speaker 5: Wow, that's a big ass Chris. I really appreciate you

842
00:43:56,519 --> 00:43:58,639
guys asking me to come on, and I really appreciate

843
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:03,840
you highlighting mid Wes Monster. It's such a passion project

844
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,880
for me. It's so important for me. It's almost like

845
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,840
I'm still a prosecutor a little bit. I can still

846
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,599
feel like I'm seeking justice, and that is what we

847
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:15,960
really do it x SHE in a lot of ways

848
00:44:16,159 --> 00:44:19,320
is we highlight these kind of projects and we're seeking justice.

849
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,159
Some of my favorite projects that we've done that are still,

850
00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:25,679
of course available on Audible are Call Me God about

851
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,760
the DC Sniper Case. That's just an incredible end depth

852
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,440
perspective from all the people who work that case that

853
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,199
you've never heard of before. Shoot Out the Battle for

854
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,880
North Hollywood, Now that's an amazing project. We got some

855
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:42,039
incredible interviews of people like the dentists who save the

856
00:44:42,159 --> 00:44:45,199
life of the young rookie police officer who's still a

857
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,159
sergeant today at LAPD. That's an amazing project and we

858
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,280
have a lot coming out that I think people will

859
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,760
be interested. Go to exgproduction dot com and see. So

860
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,000
that's exciting. Of course we're going to continue best case,

861
00:44:57,039 --> 00:44:59,519
worst case. Jim and I have really focused the last

862
00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:03,039
couple of weeks on the Eliza Fletcher kidnapping and murder,

863
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:06,400
which is just horrifying, just a terrible case. And Christen,

864
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,599
you mentioned earlier about rape being underreported, something that I

865
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,320
would really like to highlight, and we've actually tried to

866
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,599
get a variety of different outlets to let us do

867
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:20,760
a show or project about and everyone always says no

868
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,840
about the rape kit backlog. It's just shocking to me

869
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:29,880
that Eliza Fletcher didn't have to die. That offender should

870
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,360
have been behind bars because the woman was raped before

871
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:37,440
Eliza Fletcher was kidnapped, was raped an entire year before that,

872
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:39,840
and it took them almost a year to process that

873
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,519
rape kit and to get a result that came in

874
00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:45,880
a couple of days after Eliza was dead. And it's

875
00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:49,719
how many women have to die? Why do we devalue

876
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,360
this so much it makes me just It infuriates me

877
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,239
that we do this and continue to do it, and

878
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,960
have plenty of money in this country to fix the spot.

879
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,519
We're too busy wasting it on stupid stuff. I would

880
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:05,000
cuss here, but I don't know if you're allowed to

881
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,719
cuss in this podcast, so I'm not going to shut

882
00:46:08,039 --> 00:46:10,440
And so that I think is something that we all

883
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,719
as podcasters can consistently highlight by covering cases like Eliza

884
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:20,079
Fletcher and talking about rape kit backlog, how inexcusable it is,

885
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,960
and how we all should demand to be fixed. We

886
00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:26,440
are the taxpayers, where are the citizens, we're providing the money,

887
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,519
Where is it going? We need to demand that our

888
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,639
politicians prioritize rape kits and DNA like that from every crime,

889
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,199
because there's no excuse for it. There's no excuse for

890
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,519
waiting year to process it, because you are sitting there saying,

891
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,599
here's you're saying to the woman who gets raped in

892
00:46:44,639 --> 00:46:48,559
twenty twenty one, you don't matter exactly. We don't care

893
00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:51,639
if fact guys running around raping other women, which means

894
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,679
women don't matter. It drives me absolutely up the wall.

895
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,920
And so I think as podcasters we can all agree

896
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:01,320
that those sort of issues are why we do what

897
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,320
we do and why it's important to continue to do

898
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,920
what we do and hopefully draw the attention of legislators

899
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,079
and lawmakers and fix this damn problem. Wonderful, Oh I

900
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:12,519
did cuss.

901
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 4: Sorry, You're fine.

902
00:47:14,559 --> 00:47:17,559
Speaker 2: Phenomenal discussion for then, next time we have you on

903
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:19,119
mind over anytime.

904
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: Yes, Fantsy, thank you so much for joining us. It's

905
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:23,800
been a pleasure and we do hope you'll join us

906
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,679
for another episode of mind Over Murder.

907
00:47:26,119 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 5: Absolutely, thanks for having me.

908
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of

909
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,119
mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time.

910
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

911
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,440
Another Dog Productions.

912
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

913
00:47:50,679 --> 00:47:53,079
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

914
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

915
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space.

916
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,159
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

917
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

918
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:08,840
Murders on Facebook.

919
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:11,679
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

920
00:48:11,679 --> 00:48:13,320
Bill Thomas five six.

921
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder