Speaker 1: Special edition of the Fight Preach Unite podcast series.
Speaker 2: I am the somewhat competent.
Speaker 1: Host TJ Reeves. Big Dan's getting repped up for everything
that's going to happen this weekend at Wembley Stadium in
London for Anthony Joshua Daniel Dubois big time contender matchup,
especially with Joshua looming for a massive fight. We obviously
know Dubois recently had a title challenge and was beaten
by Usik. Joshua previously beaten a couple of times by Usick,
but has had several wins since then. We're interested in
all of that, and I want some more insight here
as we rev up to Saturday, from a guy I
love going to this guy.
Speaker 2: It has been far.
Speaker 1: Too long since I have said hello to the boxing
writer David Payne. His website is the Boxing Writer dot
co dot UK. I know no one better to give
me insight and give me nostalgia and perspective on something
with British fights and the heavyweights, in particular my man
David Payne, who's been cracking off the nineteen eighties references.
Before the interview segment began, You're making me very nostalgic
for that fortieth anniversary of Miami Vice. By the way,
recently with Crockett and Tubbs, you gotta love that. Good
to be back with you, my friend.
Speaker 3: It's been a long time, too long, TJ. Nice to
see and us to catch up. Hello to the listeners
that may remember me from back in the day when
this all begun for you. It'd be good to chat
about this fight. As always, heavyweights always get as is
picked up that little bit more, don't they a few
more idballs turn? So it'd be good to go through it.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about buzz.
Speaker 1: I love talking about whether there's interest, whether there's buzz.
Obviously we are seeing over here in the United States
a lot of chatter about the ticket sales and the
fact that they may have ninety thousand or more there again,
after Tyson Fury and Dillian White a couple of years
ago have what ninety four thousands something along those lines.
How much buzz is there for the return of Anthony
Joshua to Wimbley in this scenario fighting Dubois his countryman.
Speaker 3: What would you say, David, I think there's quite a
bit of buzz. As you mentioned, they've managed to extend
the potential attendance to ninety six thousand, which will take
it up to a new record which seems to get
stretched with every passing year. Yes, it's astonishing ticket sales.
We need to pause and just reflect on just how
amazing it is that these guys are selling out these
huge stadiums on a fairly regular basis and here we
are again extending the record. So yeah, the buzz is
definitely out there. It will grow as the week passes
over here in the UK. I guess there's two extra strands.
There's a small degree of there's not a novelty to
the big stadium fight anymore, so it's kind of just
part of the sporting landscape here in the UK. And
the second thing is, of course that we've had these
extended periods where these fights have been from Saudi Arabia,
so there is a On the one hand, the stadium
fights is are quite a regular thing, but it feels
quite fresh to be back talking about Joshua fighting in
London again on such a big stage. So it's an
exciting fight. I think the tickets are all sold and
if there's any spares, I'm sure they vanish and the
interest the water cooler, as you guys say, over there
in the States, in the tear rooms, the canteens and
the paper shops and the pubs and the bars, is
definitely growing ahead of Saturday Night. It'll be a big
event by the time he gets to the end of
the week.
Speaker 1: As I mentioned, Joshua has scored some impressive wins recently.
We know that Dubois got the upset win over Hergovic,
but he had a title challenge last summer, beaten by
Alexander Usak. What kind of realistic shot does Daniel Dubois
have or do you believe he has a realistic shot
with Anthony Joshua come Sary Night.
Speaker 3: I think he has a shot TJ, which may surprise you.
The questions kind of pretty loaded to suggest that he doesn't.
I think he genuinely does have a shot. And like
you have been impressed with some of the performances of
Anthony Joshua, but reflect him back on that record. When
you look back on a PC screen and think, actually,
how much substances they're in the opposition that he's faced,
they were all Taylor made. It started to bring to
mind the kind of manicured or curated experience that Tyson
Mike Tyson had in his thirties about a certain type
of opponent against who he could look like some sort
of fact similarity similarly of his previous self. The two
don't compare Joshua and Tyson, of course, but I think
there's a sense of they were tailor made opponents as
much as they could be at this stage. And he
looked spectacular and aggressive and all those good things. But
it's it's only eighteen months ago. He was kind of
going through the motions with Jermaine Franklin, was way out
of overweight, etcetera. Not a well prepared heavyweight and definitely
a B or C grade kind of guy. So I
was impressed at the time when he knocked out those guys,
dismissing in Ghana fight completely. It was fun as a spectacle,
but as a competitive kind of barometer, I don't think
it told us very much, but.
Speaker 1: I think I interjected it did tell us one thing.
He took it a lot more seriously than Tyson. Fury
took it, and.
Speaker 3: That was difficult though that's true, good.
Speaker 1: Line, but he and he learned from what Fury didn't
do and how he could capitalize and he eradicated.
Speaker 2: I love that word.
Speaker 1: In Ghanu in short order, and I think some people
sat up and took notice of that on the heels
of his I'm also blasting Auto Valin recently as well.
Who again he could say B level or C level fighter,
but he got him out of there, So that's that's interesting.
Speaker 2: So I love to couch it this way too.
Speaker 1: If it's going to go well for Dubois, what are
you looking for in terms of an ingredient or two?
Speaker 3: I think I think kind of on the boxing level,
I think the body shots from Dubois will being porn.
I think Dubai has got to be aggressive. He's going
to have to move his head a little bit more
than he did against Herkovic. Whilst the result and the
outcome were very entertaining, it was thrilling to watch and
I loved watching that fight. It really got me on
the edge of the seat because I love to see
Dubois come through such a tough test and I love
to see the arrogance of Herkovic on foot, you know,
doused with cold water. But he got hit a lot
in those early rounds, and if he gets hit as
much as that from Joshua. You'd have to imagine that
Joshua is going to put him away. As you allude to,
he's been a good finisher over the last few fights,
so Dubois can't afford to give him that many opportunities
up his best chances to come forward and be aggressive
and throw lots of punches in combinations. He can't afford
to stand at mid distance with Joshua. You would imagine
who's got the better long distance arsenal. I think I
think Boy is better a little closer. But the body
shots will be a fact that we saw, and I
know our colleague Dan has got a very clear view
of the seek body shot, but I think it showed
the power that he had to the body borderline or otherwise,
and he showed that as well versus Herkovic, and he
was willing to perhaps bend the rules with the head
all that kind of thing to upset Hergovic. And maybe
you may need to do some of that again here.
He's obviously an outsider. Joshua has the pedigree as the
experience as can match him physically, etcetera. And he's probably
the purer puncher of the two. But I definitely think
Boys has a chance here, and I think more on
the mental side, which is always we kind of joke
about being the sofa psychologist TJ. But both of them
still come into this with some questions about their their desire,
their appetite, their willingness to take shorts, et cetera. Joshua
for different reasons because he's at the other side of
perhaps his peak, and Duboi because he's still proved trying
to prove those critics wrong. How would Dubois fair when
Joshua hits him flush and things get difficult, And does
Joshua have the appetite for it if things get difficult
for him at this stage, because we've we've seen evidence
of doubt in both in their careers. So physically great matchup,
I think it could. It could be very entertaining, whether
it's long or shorts.
Speaker 2: We love the inside of this man.
Speaker 1: He's the boxing writer David Payne joining us on a
special edition of the Fight Freaks Unit podcast in advance
of Joshua and Dubois. We remind you to order it
through our friends at PPV dot com. They sponsor us
here on the pod. You need no long term subscription.
You buy what you want order the pay per view.
It's reasonably priced right through PPV dot com. Obviously it's
orderable through other outlets and other entities in Europe and
the UK and elsewhere. But we just make mention of that,
all right. While I have you here, this kind of
ties in. We mentioned Tyson Fury and a looming rematch
with Alexander Usik. Now it occurs to me that I
haven't really gotten you're on the record reaction to what
Usik almost did with a knockout in that fight and
eventually won the decision. So I guess let's start right there.
How surprised or not? I know, it's after the fact.
Were you that Usik came that close maybe to a
ko and eventually got the win. What was your thought
on fight one of the undisputed heavyweight clash.
Speaker 3: I was surprised TJ that he came that close to
knocking him out. And I think if it had not
been a fight of that magnitude, if Fury had not
had his record of being able to come through such
difficult moments, well have been stopped in another scenario with
different fighters with those kind of things going on. So
I was very surprised, as you know, I've been a
big Fury fan boxing wise for a long time. There
was definitely signs of decay in his performance, But equally,
I thought I personally had it closer than a lot
of people did on the kind of scull the unofficial
scorecard that I was keeping, and I don't think it
would take massive adjustments for Fury to do much much
better in the rematch. It's probably an unpopular opinion these days.
I think that there seems to be the consensus that
in rematches, the winning fight attempts to do it again,
but perhaps more easily. And we do have to question
how much desire, appetite, and peak tyson Fury has left
with given the way that he's abused his body at
various times through the last ten or fifteen years. You
sink he's perhaps the fresher of the two, despite being
the year older. But I still believe you or he
could do it in the rematch.
Speaker 1: And it's give me something, same same kind of question.
Give me something that fundamentally has to be better if
he's going to win the rematch, Give me something that
has to be better in your mind.
Speaker 3: I think his tactical discipline has to be a little
bit better. I think there were times when he was
having success and then seemed to be, for whatever reason, distraction,
trying to be the showman, trying to make it seem
easier than it actually was, seemed to get distracted, and
whilst it wasn't defining factor in the fight, I think
there were moments where he lost momentum when he didn't
need to. That he could have if he remained focused
and remained continuing to use his physical advantages, he could
have He could have kept the momentum, kept more ownership
of the of those middle rounds, and he seemed to
see that whilst under no real pressure, and then just
lost all lost his way completely and as we know,
got into huge trouble in the later round. So I
think you will physically, you would hope will be at
least on par, if not slightly better. And I think
tactically needs to be a bit more disciplined, uses physical
advantages to greater effect.
Speaker 1: A couple more minutes here, love kicking this around. Now
you are a nostalgic one like I am. By the way,
we said coming off the weekend that this is this
week the forty third anniversary of Leonard hearns one. I
have not gone back and watched that. I was a
little TJ when that was going on. You're a little
younger than me. I got to go back and rewatch
that one. But we both love the nostalgia of all
these great fights. But in terms of nostalgia as it
relates to the heavyweights, where do Joshua and Fury belong?
With the previous kind of biggest named heavyweights, which would
be Lennox Lewis, who maybe belongs above all British heavyweights
as the former undisputed champion.
Speaker 2: Hall of Famer.
Speaker 1: Frank Bruno is also in the category of the eighties
in particular as a world champion. Where where do Joshua
and Fury belong? Kind of in the whole conversation of
the last let's say thirty five years or so of
British heavyweight champs, with the understanding that Lewis is in
the Hall of Fame, I get that, But what do
you make of that?
Speaker 3: Well, I think almost unequivocally you would place Thanks Lewis
at the top of any list of British heavyweights, and
he featured pretty high, I think on most discerning viewers'
list of heavyweight's all time period, any nationality, etc. I
think Joshua from a commercial standpoint, has probably surpassed him
in some ways. He's been an absolute box office phenomena.
You could argue he has been more popular, more broadly accepted,
more popular even than Lewis. In that respect, you could
argue that he's a better household name, household name and
beyond sports fans. But the obvious impossible measure is how
would they fare against each other? We will never know,
but I think most of the consensus would be that
Lewis would would triumph if such a fantasy matchup could
be made. So I think he's got the better record.
He would win in a fight between the two. But
it's impossible to argue with the impact that Joshua has
had on the sport here in the UK and the
heavyweight division internationally. I think he's completely livened it up
again after a few dour years of the Clitch Goes
and Fury. Similarly, he's changed the landscape. His record can
be debated and argued over, but he's done some remarkable
things both commercially. He's done some remarkable things in the
ring that we will talk about in one hundred years,
we may not be here to talk about them, but
the generations to follow will talk about him getting off
the canvas versus Wilder in the same way that someone
of the other great things in the past has been
talked about, the great Homes fights and the early fights,
and Joe Lewis that Fury Wilder fight will be talked
about for forever. So he's got that and that can
never be taken away from him. And he worried to
win a USIC rematch, then obviously he can begin to
rebuild his case that he deserves mentioned alongside Lennox Lewis
in that pantheon of great British heavyweights. They're certainly probably
the top three, with due respect to those that have
gone before. You did talk about the last thirty or
forty years, So I won't be offending any of our
truly older vintage listeners who might be tearing at the
radio talking about Tommy Fahr and Henry Cooper and Bruce
Woodcock and all the other guys Bud Fret Simmons and others,
other guys from a million years ago.
Speaker 1: You did an interview with me previously with a Henry
Cooper shirt on by the way, the British heavyweight that
fought Mhammad Ali and Kali down actually, so I remember that.
I recall that as well. All right, So just one
more here, which this is rather obvious. If Joshua is successful,
especially emphatically, then what's looming in a Fury rematch win
is you know this, you know where I'm going is
a Fury Joshua matchup that we haven't seen, because obviously
the argument can be made here that if Usik beats
Fury in the rematch, what else is there really for
Usik in the present. If he's beaten Joshua twice, he's
beaten Fury twice, He's got a massive amount of money.
He's a former undisputed This is me saying this former
undisputed champion, a cruiserweight, former gold medalist, locks certain hall
of fame. I don't know what else there is. He
doesn't need to fight Joshua third time for any reason.
But if Fury wins that fight, then we got intrigue
on Fury Joshua. Yes, just follow up that here in
our remaining moments.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, as you say, they never tend to retire
at the top. We've mentioned Lewis, he managed it, and
he always said there's always one more fighter, there's always
another fire. So for you Seek, one could hope that
if he did win this match, he would retire as
the king of the Hill, having achieved everything. From Furious
point of view, yes, obviously, if he triumphs here and
we can go into twenty twenty five with the very
real prospect of Joshua versus Fury, that does seem a
certain neatness to that. The amount of money is gargantuan.
The two profiles couldn't be more polar opposite. It really
would be the culmination of a decade long story, really,
which is as at times looked like it was impossible,
it could never happen. It was wishful thinking it best,
and obviously in the various losses along the way too,
it's looked like it's gone a long way away. But yes,
we're two wins away from it being possible. I don't
think Anthony Joshua de rise a fog on conclusion, and
obviously Fury getting through you seek the second time of
asking is also a huge if. But we'll see, we'll see.
I no longer have a dog in the race as
they said a dog in the fight, be quite happy
with either victor in either fight. But the idea of
a Joshua Fury fight, if that needs them both to win,
and that's probably the best outcome because that really would
be amazing for.
Speaker 1: And they've been trying, they were wanting to have that
happen back a few years ago. It didn't happen, and
it may never happen. And then again, it's boxing. Just
when you think something's not going to happen, it happens.
Speaker 3: So it would be the perfect finale for both, wouldn't it.
Let's be honest, whatever happened beyond it, it would be
the perfect.
Speaker 2: And I stress, I stress this all the time.
Speaker 1: These are massive, massive sports stars in the UK and
over there. We don't appreciate it the same way. Fury
more so than Joshua because frankly, Joshua's only fight fought
here one time and Andy Ruiz knocked him out and
dumped him. But Fury fought here several times and demolished
Deontay Wilder in their last two fights. So there's obviously
more run, more credibility, if you will, for Fury, I
think with American fight fans. But we do not appreciate
nearly as much what Fury and Joshua would mean there
in the UK where you are, So stay tuned and
we'll see if we get there. All right, So you've
done a great job helping me preview this. Are we
ready to go to see whatever's going to happen on Saturday.
I don't know in any of our conversations that I
was ever a bigger advocate for what Anthony Joshua might
do than David Payne was, But in this case, I'm
a bigger advocate that I think Joshua is going to
have a fairly easy night. Maybe I'm wrong and is
going to get it done and maybe even emphatically and early.
We'll see, but that's my read on this. Just one
more time and we're getting excited as the middle of
this week becomes this weekend to see whatever is going
to happen with this British main event.
Speaker 2: Final thought, please yeah?
Speaker 3: My final thought is I tend never to underestimate the
difference that Don Charles could make to a heavyweight and
training Donia Dubois, we've seen a massive improvement in him
in his last two or three performances. Don Charles is
a great tactician, but he's also very good at eliciting
performances from troubled heavyweights. Did a lot with Derrich Zura,
and that's a huge factor in me having a little
bit more faith that Dubois could be the real threat
on Saturday. But you may well be right. Joshua can
be destructive at his best.
Speaker 1: This guy, by the way, is my favor for so
many reasons. Whether we are discussing the Dukes of Hazzard
off the year as we were, we didn't get around
to the A team. I love it when a great
plan comes together. In some other eighties shows, he also
has a phenomenal painting behind him every time I talk
to him. On the video of Rocky Marciano's massive right up,
right hand bomb knockout of Jersey Joe Walcott back in
the day, YouTube it up from the nineteen fifties. Love
that moment, says why we love the boxing writer at
his site boxing Writer dot co dot uk, David Payne,
thank you, thank you, thank you. I enjoy catching up
with you, and let's see what happens Saturday Night with
Joshua Dublan. The main event that's coming from Wimbley Stadium.
Thank you as always, my friend. Great to see you,
great to chat with you, and you Tjack Cresswell Chogginson.
Great stuff here on this special edition of the Fight
Preach Unite podcast.
Speaker 2: More coming up
Speaker 1: As we build towards the weekend here on this podcast
beat bye for now