WEBVTT

1
00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another episode of The Oath in the Office podcast,

2
00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.039
<v Speaker 1>coming to you live from the United States of America,

3
00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.079
<v Speaker 1>where we lead the world in presidents who hide in

4
00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:21.120
<v Speaker 1>the back of food cards. Some John Fugel sang along

5
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:22.839
<v Speaker 1>with the star of the show, the author of the

6
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:25.039
<v Speaker 1>Oath in the Office and the Presidents and the People.

7
00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.000
<v Speaker 1>If you needed a good reason to go study the

8
00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:32.439
<v Speaker 1>Constitution in Ivy League Universities, it's this man, Corey Brettchneider.

9
00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:33.079
<v Speaker 1>Good to see you, sir.

10
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:36.679
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, John. I'm looking forward to the discussion. It's,

11
00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, depressing stuff that we're talking about, but talking

12
00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:42.520
<v Speaker 2>to you somehow makes it uplifting. At the same time,

13
00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:45.000
<v Speaker 2>we find the hope in all of it. And you know,

14
00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.320
<v Speaker 2>one thing that's been on my mind since we've started

15
00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the podcast is how much of the story is just

16
00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.600
<v Speaker 2>about Trump and how much of it is about him

17
00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:57.200
<v Speaker 2>spreading his corruption more widely. There's an idea in particular

18
00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.320
<v Speaker 2>that a lot of political scientists are interesting it in,

19
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.679
<v Speaker 2>and I'll mention actually the law professor Azi's Hook has

20
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:06.760
<v Speaker 2>been writing about this, trying to look at the ideas

21
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:11.319
<v Speaker 2>of a Nazi era dissident who had an idea called

22
00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the dual state, and the idea of the dual state

23
00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:18.480
<v Speaker 2>was look, Hitler has basically declared himself above the law,

24
00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:21.840
<v Speaker 2>but there still is the apparatus of law operating in

25
00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:24.239
<v Speaker 2>the background for everyone else. And so one of the

26
00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:26.959
<v Speaker 2>questions of our own time is is this something that's

27
00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:29.480
<v Speaker 2>just about Trump or is the corruption going to spread?

28
00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:33.000
<v Speaker 2>And as much as he remains the center of the story,

29
00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I think some of the things that we'll talk about

30
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.640
<v Speaker 2>today are about the corruption spreading beyond him and beyond

31
00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:39.480
<v Speaker 2>even his family.

32
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think, you know, the stories we're going

33
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:44.799
<v Speaker 1>to cover today really speak to me to this subject

34
00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.040
<v Speaker 1>we've covered before. What happens when a president keeps treating

35
00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:52.239
<v Speaker 1>the powers and information of the presidency as his personal

36
00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:55.680
<v Speaker 1>property rather than a public power. And I think the

37
00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.879
<v Speaker 1>first story is the most constitutionally fascinating, and that is

38
00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.920
<v Speaker 1>that Trump's media and technology group is launched this truth Api,

39
00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.319
<v Speaker 1>which is a service that costs about one hundred thousand

40
00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.960
<v Speaker 1>dollars a month for all you MAGA voters out there,

41
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.080
<v Speaker 1>so you can get early access to posts from prominent

42
00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.280
<v Speaker 1>truth social accounts, including trumps Now, the Intercept, and the

43
00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:16.360
<v Speaker 1>Freedom of the Press Foundation.

44
00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:18.439
<v Speaker 3>Professor have sued, and they're.

45
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:22.319
<v Speaker 1>Arguing that this whole setup really monetizes access to presidential

46
00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.120
<v Speaker 1>communications for a privileged view. Reuter says, the plaintiffs are

47
00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.919
<v Speaker 1>contending the service could give paying subscribers an advantage when

48
00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.599
<v Speaker 1>Trump's posts move financial markets, which to me sounds like

49
00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:36.719
<v Speaker 1>they're admitting this is for rich douchebags manipulating the stock market.

50
00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:40.520
<v Speaker 1>But what is your immediate constitutional reaction search to the

51
00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:45.199
<v Speaker 1>idea that sitting president's communications can effectively be put behind

52
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.319
<v Speaker 1>one hundred thousand dollars a month pay Well.

53
00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:49.719
<v Speaker 2>Wow, it is a wild idea that you would charge

54
00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:53.120
<v Speaker 2>journalists for access to the president, something that it says

55
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.879
<v Speaker 2>if you're monetizing the bully pulpit, and then at the

56
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.120
<v Speaker 2>same time use the same technique in order to basically

57
00:02:59.560 --> 00:03:02.080
<v Speaker 2>allow people into the orbit of those who look like

58
00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.719
<v Speaker 2>they've already been engaging in insider trading. We've talked before

59
00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.280
<v Speaker 2>on this show about the fact that there's an account

60
00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.439
<v Speaker 2>that hasn't been identified, but it seems to almost perfectly

61
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.120
<v Speaker 2>match notifications about the news of whether or not there's

62
00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:19.439
<v Speaker 2>a ceasefire in the war in Iran and manipulating and

63
00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.599
<v Speaker 2>betting to short oil markets. In order to benefit from

64
00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:27.479
<v Speaker 2>the seasfire, betting exactly that oil will will again going

65
00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:30.120
<v Speaker 2>down in price when a ceasefire has been declared. That

66
00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:33.159
<v Speaker 2>looks like it's either Trump or his family or somebody

67
00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.080
<v Speaker 2>connected to him who has access to this instant information.

68
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.520
<v Speaker 2>So as the criticism comes, I guess he realized, Wow,

69
00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I could monetize this. I don't just have to limit

70
00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.080
<v Speaker 2>it to my accounts. We could give people early access.

71
00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.240
<v Speaker 2>And it looks like a scheme to basically allow for

72
00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:52.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, paid inside information in order to manipulate the markets.

73
00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.639
<v Speaker 1>And then also, not Donald Trump, professor, not Donald Trump.

74
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, suppose he posts like a twenty five percent

75
00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:05.919
<v Speaker 1>tariff on X tomorrow and then a hedge fund paying

76
00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:08.840
<v Speaker 1>one hundred grand a month gets that information a few

77
00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.599
<v Speaker 1>milliseconds or a few seconds before everybody else does. Is

78
00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:16.879
<v Speaker 1>there a constitutional issue with converting presidential information into a

79
00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.439
<v Speaker 1>private financial advantage for a select few citizens.

80
00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I think we could talk about it

81
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.480
<v Speaker 2>on two levels. One is certainly in terms of when

82
00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:28.040
<v Speaker 2>you think about Article two and the oath of office.

83
00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.680
<v Speaker 2>The point of the podcast, the job is to preserve, protect,

84
00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.240
<v Speaker 2>and defend the constitution of the United States, not to

85
00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:37.959
<v Speaker 2>turn the office into personal profit. And we've talked often

86
00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.519
<v Speaker 2>about the emolument's clauses. The idea that you can't use

87
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the office for profit did twice in the Constitution, a

88
00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:49.000
<v Speaker 2>domestic emoluments clause and an international one. George Washington talked

89
00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.920
<v Speaker 2>about the emolument's clause and pledged to take no emoluments

90
00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:56.199
<v Speaker 2>in his first inaugural address to not profit from the office.

91
00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>This is the extreme. I mean, this is wild idea

92
00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.959
<v Speaker 2>to which this is actually truly monetizing the office, both

93
00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.879
<v Speaker 2>to journalists but again to these insider traders, and I

94
00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:09.560
<v Speaker 2>guess I think too it is trying to create a

95
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of space of people who are above the law,

96
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.480
<v Speaker 2>who really don't pay by the other rules of others,

97
00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:18.959
<v Speaker 2>because the idea is, well, you can trade this information

98
00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:21.639
<v Speaker 2>if you buy access to it. Whether or not it's

99
00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:25.199
<v Speaker 2>illegal or not. It probably isn't because he's giving enough

100
00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.759
<v Speaker 2>access to the information that it isn't truly trading on

101
00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:32.199
<v Speaker 2>private information. So it's not that these people are necessarily

102
00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.680
<v Speaker 2>going to be prosecuted. Trump himself, of course has immunity,

103
00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.879
<v Speaker 2>although it's only supposed to be for official acts, and

104
00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:41.800
<v Speaker 2>this strikes me as the definition of an unofficial act.

105
00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Part of what's incentivizing him to do all this is

106
00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.800
<v Speaker 2>he thinks and believes that he'll never be prosecuted for it.

107
00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.160
<v Speaker 2>And unfortunately that might be right.

108
00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:54.879
<v Speaker 1>I mean, let's point out that in the last ten years,

109
00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:59.759
<v Speaker 1>no Congress and no Justice Department, and not the Biden administration,

110
00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.800
<v Speaker 1>the Trump administrations have ever cared about the Emolument's clause.

111
00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, no one cares, Cory, right, Like, we could

112
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.319
<v Speaker 1>have impeached Trump for this one minute into his first

113
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.079
<v Speaker 1>inaugural address. No one's going to go after him. We've

114
00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:14.759
<v Speaker 1>just decided Nope, he can do it. But to me,

115
00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:18.759
<v Speaker 1>it's like this lawsuit saying that the presidential communications are

116
00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:23.639
<v Speaker 1>getting monetized through a private company where the president himself

117
00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:29.279
<v Speaker 1>owns a substantial stake. So isn't the constitutional problem stronger

118
00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.800
<v Speaker 1>because Trump's not just making money from an ordinary private business,

119
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.120
<v Speaker 1>which would be a violation of the emolument's clause, but

120
00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.920
<v Speaker 1>potentially making money from information generated by the Office of

121
00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.160
<v Speaker 1>the Presidency itself.

122
00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.959
<v Speaker 2>Taste to this, you know, and then also basically spreading

123
00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the corruption throughout this group of people who are going

124
00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.240
<v Speaker 2>to buy in. And so yes, it strikes me as

125
00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:55.120
<v Speaker 2>an extreme of something that should be illegal under laws

126
00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.040
<v Speaker 2>that would operationalize, that would make real the emolument's clause.

127
00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:00.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, let me just say what I mean by that,

128
00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.720
<v Speaker 2>because that's a confusing statement. So we have these two

129
00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:06.079
<v Speaker 2>emolument's clauses, and you might think he can't do that.

130
00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Let's prosecute him. First of all, who's going to prosecute him.

131
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.959
<v Speaker 2>That's part of the problem. That is all about the

132
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.480
<v Speaker 2>closing prosecutors. But there's a deeper problem, and we've talked

133
00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.519
<v Speaker 2>about this before in the podcast, but here it's really

134
00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.680
<v Speaker 2>becoming salient that those emolument's clauses don't have obvious pieces

135
00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.079
<v Speaker 2>of law legislation passed by Congress that turn them into

136
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:31.040
<v Speaker 2>criminal laws that could be used to prosecute a president.

137
00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:34.879
<v Speaker 2>And that is a failure of the Congress to not

138
00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:39.160
<v Speaker 2>pass emoluments legislation. Now, it's not that, you know, I'm

139
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.600
<v Speaker 2>always trying to lean into optimism at the same time

140
00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.800
<v Speaker 2>that I want to tell the truth about what's going

141
00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.040
<v Speaker 2>on here. And the optimism is that there are bills

142
00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.360
<v Speaker 2>that have been introduced to Congress to do exactly this.

143
00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.759
<v Speaker 2>They haven't been acted on yet, and they won't be

144
00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.199
<v Speaker 2>acted on until we have a Democratic Congress. But I

145
00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:59.439
<v Speaker 2>do believe that if Democrats take the House, these bills

146
00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.279
<v Speaker 2>will move to the floor and we'll get a vote

147
00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.560
<v Speaker 2>on them. And you know, let Republicans vote against the

148
00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:07.399
<v Speaker 2>bill that says you can't profit from the office, against

149
00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.959
<v Speaker 2>the emolument's clause. I'm not sure that once we're at

150
00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:12.519
<v Speaker 2>that point they'll be willing to do that.

151
00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.639
<v Speaker 1>They will the other They know Fox News won't cover it.

152
00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:17.759
<v Speaker 1>They know Fox News won't cover it, so the pokes

153
00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:18.720
<v Speaker 1>at home will never know.

154
00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.959
<v Speaker 2>Corey maybe, But if Democrats control the House, my point

155
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.199
<v Speaker 2>is that they won't need the Republican votes or many

156
00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:25.759
<v Speaker 2>of them. You know, they'll be able to get them

157
00:08:25.800 --> 00:08:28.759
<v Speaker 2>through at least through the House. The Senate. You know, well,

158
00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:30.720
<v Speaker 2>we're waiting to see two. There is a chance that

159
00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Democrats will take the Senate, and if they do, you know,

160
00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.879
<v Speaker 2>we'll have the votes to at least pass it. Now,

161
00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, that becomes interesting politics too when Trump veto's it.

162
00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:42.799
<v Speaker 2>Now we have an override vote. It's very hard to

163
00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.360
<v Speaker 2>override a veto, but it is of course possible, and

164
00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.440
<v Speaker 2>once that override vote happens, maybe there will be the

165
00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:51.799
<v Speaker 2>votes to override, and maybe they'll be weak enough.

166
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.759
<v Speaker 1>That's the only way. I mean, like, I'm stuck on

167
00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.440
<v Speaker 1>this cory. If a president can monetize access to their

168
00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.000
<v Speaker 1>official White House communications, what stops this presidency from just

169
00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.200
<v Speaker 1>becoming a subscription service for oligarchs?

170
00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Right?

171
00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, could a court actually order the president to

172
00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:09.480
<v Speaker 1>change the way he communicates?

173
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:10.200
<v Speaker 3>Could that happen?

174
00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I think you could make it. You know, just

175
00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.480
<v Speaker 2>because something is communication doesn't mean that it's necessarily protected.

176
00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.080
<v Speaker 2>Free speech for protected by a president. So if I

177
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.159
<v Speaker 2>order a I'm not going to do this. Let's take

178
00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:25.679
<v Speaker 2>a hypothetical person orders a murder over the phone that speech,

179
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.519
<v Speaker 2>but it's obviously illegal. Well, you could criminalize certain forms

180
00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.519
<v Speaker 2>of corruption, including selling the office for profit, and that's

181
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.799
<v Speaker 2>what this legislation would do. The other thing I don't

182
00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:38.679
<v Speaker 2>want to lose sight of. And you know, this is

183
00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:42.120
<v Speaker 2>the optimism again. If Democrats take the House, I'll just

184
00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:45.440
<v Speaker 2>remind listeners the way impeachment works. And this would be

185
00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:49.480
<v Speaker 2>the third. We've only had four impeachments voted up by

186
00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the House. We've never removed to president. Two of them

187
00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:55.519
<v Speaker 2>were Donald Trump, one for the Zelenskik demand for dirt

188
00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:59.559
<v Speaker 2>on Joe Biden and his son in exchange for basically

189
00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:02.960
<v Speaker 2>r and funding to Ukraine to Zelenski. That was the first,

190
00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.600
<v Speaker 2>the second January sixth, extremely paradigm. I think of what

191
00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.879
<v Speaker 2>impeachment is supposed to be about, and this would be

192
00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:13.320
<v Speaker 2>the third, and you just need a majority of Democrats

193
00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.360
<v Speaker 2>to do it. And I would put a monument's violations

194
00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.320
<v Speaker 2>exactly these cases and this idea. I love how you

195
00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:22.320
<v Speaker 2>said it, John, I don't want people to miss it.

196
00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.600
<v Speaker 2>A subscription service to the presidents that is almost the

197
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.039
<v Speaker 2>definition of a monument's violation. So you know, legislation, it

198
00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.120
<v Speaker 2>gives us the need when you see the crimes and

199
00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.639
<v Speaker 2>you think this isn't illegal, how could that be? That

200
00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.720
<v Speaker 2>calls out for a vote on this kind of legislation.

201
00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:42.600
<v Speaker 2>And then also absolutely top of the list impeachment for

202
00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.840
<v Speaker 2>molument's violations. And just to be clear too, sorry, sorry

203
00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:46.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting a little long.

204
00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.200
<v Speaker 3>Please please please know, but.

205
00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.799
<v Speaker 2>Just because we don't have criminal laws yet that make

206
00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.279
<v Speaker 2>this illegal doesn't mean it's not a high crime and misdemeanor.

207
00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.559
<v Speaker 2>You don't need a crime in order to have an

208
00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.720
<v Speaker 2>impeachable offense. You need basically action that undermine the office,

209
00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.120
<v Speaker 2>that are an assault on democracy. And this is a

210
00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:05.639
<v Speaker 2>paradigm of what that means.

211
00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:09.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean he's profiting off the office. And let

212
00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:10.759
<v Speaker 1>me just I'll get off this. I just have one

213
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.720
<v Speaker 1>last question on it. Does the Constitution recognize any kind

214
00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:18.120
<v Speaker 1>of real distinction between Donald Trump the corrupt, a moral

215
00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.559
<v Speaker 1>private businessman and Donald Trump the corrupt, a moral president.

216
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.519
<v Speaker 2>You know that we can talk about what should be

217
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:31.200
<v Speaker 2>the case and then what is and increasingly the you know,

218
00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.600
<v Speaker 2>the way that the unitary executive theory has unfolded is

219
00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:38.360
<v Speaker 2>it has you know, I think the people who defend

220
00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:41.600
<v Speaker 2>that theory, any constitutional scholar, will say, of course, the

221
00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:44.600
<v Speaker 2>president has certain obligations. In fact, when you look at

222
00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Article two that creates the presidency, it's filled with duties

223
00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.080
<v Speaker 2>you have to pledge to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution.

224
00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.240
<v Speaker 2>You have the Article two requires a president to take

225
00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:59.120
<v Speaker 2>care that the laws be faithfully executed. And in my mind,

226
00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.320
<v Speaker 2>there would be legislation, criminal laws that say if you

227
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:06.320
<v Speaker 2>violate those duties, or if you attack democracy, you could

228
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.879
<v Speaker 2>be subject to not just impeachment, but to prosecution. But

229
00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.080
<v Speaker 2>this Supreme Court has just done so much to enable

230
00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.759
<v Speaker 2>a president who you know, they claim they're thinking about

231
00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:19.679
<v Speaker 2>Ronald Reagan, but when they're dealing with the president who's

232
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.039
<v Speaker 2>using this powerful office to commit crimes and make money,

233
00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.240
<v Speaker 2>they've just undone so much of what we would need

234
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>to do. And front and center, of course, is that

235
00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:33.279
<v Speaker 2>horrible immunity case that a president can't be prosecuted at

236
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:34.600
<v Speaker 2>least for official duties.

237
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:36.559
<v Speaker 1>They want a King, Corey. They just they want a

238
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.360
<v Speaker 1>king who's not held back by your woke laws. And

239
00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.960
<v Speaker 1>can we weigh deeper until the corrupted professor? Because the

240
00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:46.200
<v Speaker 1>swamp is getting nastier in many ways. It seems to

241
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.039
<v Speaker 1>be like the new corruption is just not going after

242
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:55.919
<v Speaker 1>existing corruption, and the government's willingness to investigate corruption itself

243
00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:59.240
<v Speaker 1>is now on the chopping block. So Donald Trump put

244
00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.240
<v Speaker 1>out an executive order in February of last year that

245
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.919
<v Speaker 1>directed the DOJ to stop any new investigations under the

246
00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.879
<v Speaker 1>Foreign Corrupt Practices Act while the White House was reviewing

247
00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.559
<v Speaker 1>their enforcement policy. I mean, I know, with all the

248
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:17.360
<v Speaker 1>illegal wars and murdering Americans in the streets, this got overlooked.

249
00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.600
<v Speaker 1>But the White House more or less said stop looking

250
00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.960
<v Speaker 1>for corrupt practices from foreign countries. Right now. And they

251
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.879
<v Speaker 1>set it on the grounds that the FCPA enforcement would

252
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:32.399
<v Speaker 1>hurt American economic competitiveness and we would interfere with presidential

253
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:37.080
<v Speaker 1>foreign policy authority by investigating crimes committed by corrupt, a

254
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.519
<v Speaker 1>moral people the president likes more than ninety nine percent

255
00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:42.519
<v Speaker 1>of the population. This story is a little bit complicated,

256
00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.399
<v Speaker 1>which makes it a bit more hard to outrage the

257
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:49.120
<v Speaker 1>American people. But Corey, holy crap. Can a president just

258
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:54.639
<v Speaker 1>tell the DOJ to stop enforcing a federal criminal statute

259
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.120
<v Speaker 1>that Congress enacted? Can a president just say time out

260
00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.919
<v Speaker 1>on enforcing these laws?

261
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.639
<v Speaker 2>You know? Increasingly, you know, my answer is going to

262
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.120
<v Speaker 2>be the same. The more that you increase this idea

263
00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>of the unitary executive and say that there aren't independent

264
00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.240
<v Speaker 2>obligations of civil servants to protect a law apart from

265
00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:19.519
<v Speaker 2>whatever president says, yes, the more control the executive branch has.

266
00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.039
<v Speaker 2>And what's amazing about this story and why I'm glad

267
00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:25.759
<v Speaker 2>we're covering it is, you know, as Elizabeth Warren has

268
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.559
<v Speaker 2>pointed out, this is meant to create ways of these

269
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:34.720
<v Speaker 2>aren't public databases. They create ways for the FBI and

270
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>for law enforcement to see who owns what and to

271
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:43.039
<v Speaker 2>look into things like money laundering, and this database that

272
00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.960
<v Speaker 2>has already been collected is of enormous use to law

273
00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.279
<v Speaker 2>enforcement as they investigate these crimes, international financial crimes, which

274
00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.759
<v Speaker 2>are extremely complicated. People are moving money with crypto across borders,

275
00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.519
<v Speaker 2>and at least this was a way of allowing these

276
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.279
<v Speaker 2>things to be tracked. And why is Trump coming in

277
00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.639
<v Speaker 2>now and I'm doing My understanding is it's not just

278
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, future data gathering, it's that they're they're ordering

279
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.799
<v Speaker 2>the erasure of so much of the material that they

280
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.559
<v Speaker 2>already have.

281
00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.600
<v Speaker 1>You mean, you mean corruption and bribes and money laundering

282
00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>won't be able to be prosecuted when Trump leaves office

283
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:21.519
<v Speaker 1>because they've destroyed the evidence. Is that what you're suggesting, sir.

284
00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's part of what's going on. I mean, let's

285
00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.080
<v Speaker 2>get to brass tax because you know Trump and this

286
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.080
<v Speaker 2>is what I was trying to say too, The corruption

287
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:32.559
<v Speaker 2>is spreading, not just Trump and his family, but protecting

288
00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:35.840
<v Speaker 2>all those really who seem to be operating with black

289
00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.600
<v Speaker 2>markets and crypto. And many of his supporters, of course,

290
00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.559
<v Speaker 2>are from the crypto world, and there is a you know,

291
00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.720
<v Speaker 2>not one hundred percent overlap, but there is some overlap

292
00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.399
<v Speaker 2>of black markets and crypto, and the more that you

293
00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:52.360
<v Speaker 2>allow who's involved in various companies, who owns what, transparency

294
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.559
<v Speaker 2>and these databases at least, you know, in issues of

295
00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.759
<v Speaker 2>that allow law enforcement to investigate these very complicated financial

296
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.799
<v Speaker 2>cores across the borders. When you erase all of that,

297
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:04.799
<v Speaker 2>it's just hard to crack down on it. And you know,

298
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.879
<v Speaker 2>the obvious is that this is a president who essentially,

299
00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, sees his constituents as those who support him,

300
00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.480
<v Speaker 2>not just at the polls. I think that's not really

301
00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.519
<v Speaker 2>what he cares about, but support him financially and support

302
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.120
<v Speaker 2>his businesses. And this is a president whose family and

303
00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.720
<v Speaker 2>he have been involved so deeply in crypto that it's

304
00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:28.679
<v Speaker 2>really not a surprise, including you know, pardoning some crypto criminals.

305
00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:31.600
<v Speaker 1>But that's it, right, I mean, there's got to be

306
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:37.240
<v Speaker 1>a constitutional line between prosecutorial discretion and just a president

307
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:40.159
<v Speaker 1>obstructing the law. Can a president just just say I

308
00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.039
<v Speaker 1>don't like this statute, so we're not going to enforce it.

309
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:44.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean, is that a thing?

310
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:47.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I'll say what's supposed to be and

311
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:49.919
<v Speaker 2>then I'll say what we're dealing with here, Because it's

312
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:53.840
<v Speaker 2>wider than just this story I mentioned, you know, Article two.

313
00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.159
<v Speaker 2>Article one creates the Congress and limits it. Article two

314
00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.759
<v Speaker 2>creates the presidency and limits it an Article three of

315
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.120
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution creates the Supreme Court and the possibility of

316
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.480
<v Speaker 2>lower courts. So what is Article two say about this?

317
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.519
<v Speaker 2>It actually answers your question, John directly. It says that

318
00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:13.039
<v Speaker 2>a president is obligated here's the quote, to take care

319
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.599
<v Speaker 2>that the laws be faithfully executed. In other words, no,

320
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.920
<v Speaker 2>you're not supposed to have discretion. You're supposed to take

321
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.119
<v Speaker 2>the laws on the books and enforce them.

322
00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.880
<v Speaker 3>The oath and the officer, the oath and the office.

323
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:26.839
<v Speaker 3>I spared it up that that's the idea.

324
00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but increasingly, you know, that's not how Todd Blanche

325
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:33.000
<v Speaker 2>these things, and that's not how Donald Trump see things.

326
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.279
<v Speaker 2>They they say, well, the president, you know, I should

327
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.359
<v Speaker 2>say too. I don't want to overstate it. You know,

328
00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:39.240
<v Speaker 2>think about it, right, you know, are you going to

329
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.759
<v Speaker 2>enforce every immigration law something that you often heard Article

330
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:46.400
<v Speaker 2>two cited in regard to Biden. Well, obviously there's some

331
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.799
<v Speaker 2>discretion when it comes to the enforcement of laws, but

332
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:52.240
<v Speaker 2>that decision is supposed to be made with the public

333
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.839
<v Speaker 2>good in mind. With thinking about resources, he's thinking about

334
00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.400
<v Speaker 2>something totally different, which is protecting his cronies. And what

335
00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Todd blan Branch, who we've often referred to not just

336
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.039
<v Speaker 2>as the president's personal lawyer, but his personal criminal defense lawyer,

337
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.079
<v Speaker 2>does again and again and said, well, you know, I

338
00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.759
<v Speaker 2>might not agree with this, but yes, as the unitary executive,

339
00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:17.119
<v Speaker 2>you have control over law enforcement and including over what

340
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.200
<v Speaker 2>laws and prosecutions are broad. You know, at the Founding

341
00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.680
<v Speaker 2>I really want to go back to the founding on this,

342
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:28.000
<v Speaker 2>because they're frightening how much this was an issue. The

343
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.000
<v Speaker 2>founders had options on the table. They could have taken

344
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.200
<v Speaker 2>the office of Attorney general, made it independently elected. That's

345
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:36.880
<v Speaker 2>what we do with New York le teacher James is

346
00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:41.039
<v Speaker 2>independently elected. They made the decision to put the president

347
00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.759
<v Speaker 2>and the Attorney general in the same branch, with of

348
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:47.279
<v Speaker 2>course the president at the head, and the defenders of

349
00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:52.599
<v Speaker 2>that said, well we'll have people of virtue in wow.

350
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Anti Federals, those who opposed ratification and opposed this decision

351
00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.880
<v Speaker 2>at the convention, said you know what, like what if

352
00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.000
<v Speaker 2>you have a bad person, what if you have a

353
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.839
<v Speaker 2>criminal in the They predicted this even Their worry was, Wow,

354
00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>the Attorney General is going to get manipulated into defending crime,

355
00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:12.279
<v Speaker 2>and that's what's happening.

356
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.759
<v Speaker 3>All right, So let me get into something else.

357
00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Then.

358
00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:17.759
<v Speaker 1>That sounds incredibly boring until you realize it as enormous implications.

359
00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Please, friends, Although I heard a lot about license plates

360
00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:23.119
<v Speaker 2>from our listeners, they did not find it boring. They

361
00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:23.640
<v Speaker 2>loved it.

362
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.559
<v Speaker 3>It's a great story.

363
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I loved the license plate story everybody listened to the

364
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:28.319
<v Speaker 1>last week's show. But at this one I got to

365
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:29.839
<v Speaker 1>ask you to wait into the swamp with me on

366
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.359
<v Speaker 1>this story because it gets worse. And I tried to

367
00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.279
<v Speaker 1>start this one off light. But the Corporate Transparency Act

368
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:40.079
<v Speaker 1>created these beneficial ownership reporting requirements that were supposed to

369
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:43.079
<v Speaker 1>make it harder for criminals to hide behind shell companies. Right,

370
00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:47.079
<v Speaker 1>So in March of last year, the Treasury exempted US

371
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:52.279
<v Speaker 1>companies and US persons from those reporting requirements. So the

372
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:55.079
<v Speaker 1>Government Accountability Office then found that the exemption applied to

373
00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.799
<v Speaker 1>more than ninety nine percent of entities previously covered, reducing

374
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the universe from roughly thirty two and a half million

375
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:04.359
<v Speaker 1>to about one hundred thousand. So, I mean, this is

376
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:09.400
<v Speaker 1>very hard to understand that why should constitutional lawyers care

377
00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.559
<v Speaker 1>about corporate ownership databases?

378
00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, you look at the purpose behind legislation,

379
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.480
<v Speaker 2>and it was part of what we were talking about

380
00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>before transparency, that these databases give law enforcement a way

381
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:28.440
<v Speaker 2>of recognizing who owns what and doing the very hard work.

382
00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.319
<v Speaker 2>And this is extremely hard work. Think of how easy

383
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:36.359
<v Speaker 2>it is now in the electronic world to mask your transactions.

384
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.880
<v Speaker 2>And I mentioned crypto, that's also part of it. And

385
00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:42.400
<v Speaker 2>so you know, this legislation was meant to try to

386
00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.000
<v Speaker 2>give law enforcement some leverage in finding out, you know,

387
00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:48.720
<v Speaker 2>who owned what and who was doing it. And so

388
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:51.160
<v Speaker 2>now you know there's an attempt to undermine them.

389
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.799
<v Speaker 1>So if Congress says these corporations have to disclose who

390
00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:58.119
<v Speaker 1>owns them, but the president says, we're not going to

391
00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:01.119
<v Speaker 1>require ninety nine percent of them to do that, who

392
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.279
<v Speaker 1>wins the separation of powers dispute there?

393
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, under the current Supreme Court regime, I'd say

394
00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.200
<v Speaker 2>likely the President's going to win a lot of these battles.

395
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>But they speak to this wider issue I mentioned to

396
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:17.799
<v Speaker 2>take care clause, the obligation of the president to take

397
00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:20.559
<v Speaker 2>care that the laws were faithfully executed. The last time

398
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.200
<v Speaker 2>that we really saw a significant debate about this was

399
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:28.000
<v Speaker 2>talking about impeachment was during the Nixon administration. This is

400
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.319
<v Speaker 2>not the same issue, but you see how it's related.

401
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.119
<v Speaker 2>Nixon refused to spend funds that were allocated by Congress.

402
00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.440
<v Speaker 2>He just said, well, I have the discretion as president

403
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.880
<v Speaker 2>to spend or not spend, and Congress said, what about

404
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:41.880
<v Speaker 2>to take care clause? So when it came to the

405
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>articles of impeachment, some of them really focused on this

406
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:51.200
<v Speaker 2>idea that these impoundment of funds were violation of the

407
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.559
<v Speaker 2>obligation of the president to take care that the laws

408
00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:57.640
<v Speaker 2>are faithfully executed. Now, you know, Trump has done similar

409
00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.079
<v Speaker 2>things with DOJE and trying to basically undue agencies created

410
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:05.640
<v Speaker 2>by Congress, refusing to spend money allocated to those agencies.

411
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.559
<v Speaker 2>And here I think he's doing a similar thing. Or

412
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:12.000
<v Speaker 2>it's not that he's gotten the legislation repealed. You know,

413
00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:13.759
<v Speaker 2>he could do that and he could sign a law

414
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.599
<v Speaker 2>that repealed it. He's just trying to not enforce them,

415
00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.480
<v Speaker 2>and so that that kind of take care clause, you know,

416
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.200
<v Speaker 2>claws out of by the wayside. The problem is that

417
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:26.359
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court has increased presidential power. So you know,

418
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:30.000
<v Speaker 2>what's the penalty here? There's not a criminal penalty. Would

419
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.640
<v Speaker 2>there be learn impeachment? Might? I don't even know that

420
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.920
<v Speaker 2>that would be something that would capture the mind of

421
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.640
<v Speaker 2>the American people, I would hope. So it's complicated, and

422
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.799
<v Speaker 2>that's why he's going to get away with it. I think,

423
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:40.920
<v Speaker 2>all right.

424
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.759
<v Speaker 3>Can I ask a couple more dumb questions about this.

425
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:47.839
<v Speaker 1>Congress makes the laws, the president executes the laws. Right,

426
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.960
<v Speaker 1>So can the president effectively rewrite the scope of a

427
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.799
<v Speaker 1>congressional law through his own regulation? I mean, at what

428
00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.480
<v Speaker 1>point does a presidential interpretation be a presidential repeal of law?

429
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.160
<v Speaker 3>Right?

430
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:03.319
<v Speaker 1>Like what happens when the executive branch thinks that these

431
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.960
<v Speaker 1>roles are interchangeable and we can make the laws and

432
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:07.079
<v Speaker 1>execute them.

433
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, if you look at the founding idea

434
00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.079
<v Speaker 2>of what take care that the laws be faithfully executed?

435
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Men and men? I think to the framers what we

436
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.799
<v Speaker 2>all learned in grade school about the three branches of government,

437
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.119
<v Speaker 2>which is that Congress passes the laws and the president

438
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.240
<v Speaker 2>carries them out or executes them. Now here's the problem.

439
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Here's the theory of the unitary executive. It says that

440
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:34.240
<v Speaker 2>the executive power is vested in a president, and that

441
00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:38.440
<v Speaker 2>includes powers that go beyond just executing the laws. They

442
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 2>include the discretion to enforce laws or not. And who

443
00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:45.799
<v Speaker 2>is a court to say that a president's interpretation of

444
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.720
<v Speaker 2>what laws he wants to enforce, or here's another way

445
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.880
<v Speaker 2>of putting it, how he reads the obligation that Congress

446
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.200
<v Speaker 2>gave him and enforce these laws. That they start to

447
00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:01.200
<v Speaker 2>emphasize the idea of presidential interpretation. And there is an

448
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.839
<v Speaker 2>idea that goes back to Jefferson called departmentalism that says, look,

449
00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.440
<v Speaker 2>there are reasonable disagreements between what Congress thinks and what

450
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.119
<v Speaker 2>a president thinks, and what a president thinks might matter,

451
00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:13.640
<v Speaker 2>but that's not what's going on here. What's going on

452
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:15.960
<v Speaker 2>is there's a clear meaning of these laws, and then

453
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.279
<v Speaker 2>there's a president who's saying, well, I have the executive

454
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.799
<v Speaker 2>power to undermine them. And that's how out of control

455
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:24.279
<v Speaker 2>things have gone. It's one thing to opine on what

456
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:26.240
<v Speaker 2>you think a law is or to give it, but

457
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.079
<v Speaker 2>to really refuse to carry them out that is really

458
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, this was a very elaborate explanation of what

459
00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:35.920
<v Speaker 2>you just said, which is if the president's execution of

460
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the law's power includes the ability to just ignore them. Well, then,

461
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.880
<v Speaker 2>when what sense do we live in a democracy? We

462
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.319
<v Speaker 2>are allowing the executive president swallow up congressional power.

463
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:47.559
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let me go a step deeper into this corruption,

464
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:49.680
<v Speaker 1>then we'll get our commercial break, I promise, Wendy. Like

465
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.640
<v Speaker 1>the General Accounting Office has said, these opaque corporate structures

466
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.119
<v Speaker 1>are there to conceal identities, right, and to facilitate money

467
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.279
<v Speaker 1>laundering and other illegal activity. So the only reas and

468
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:04.559
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump is doing this is to protect corrupt foreign actors,

469
00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.400
<v Speaker 1>be they Russian or Saudi or god knows what if

470
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:12.279
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement is not allowed to identify the people behind

471
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.839
<v Speaker 1>shell companies, Corey, what happened to the government's ability to

472
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:21.039
<v Speaker 1>investigate organized crime? It's literally a waiver for lawbreakers.

473
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, he is really, you know, not just has the

474
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:27.920
<v Speaker 2>ambition he's doing it. He has the ambition of undermining

475
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:31.359
<v Speaker 2>what he thinks of as the deep state prosecutors bringing

476
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.440
<v Speaker 2>normal cases based on the fact that laws were broken.

477
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.720
<v Speaker 2>That's not what he wants. He wants control over what

478
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:40.519
<v Speaker 2>this department is used for and his priority we know,

479
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.480
<v Speaker 2>aside from the ballroom, which is evidently taking up a

480
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:48.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of his mental space prosecution prosecution of his enemies,

481
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:50.920
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I have to say something. There are

482
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:54.400
<v Speaker 2>rules about this, but I attended a meeting of a

483
00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:59.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of former public officials from both Democratic and Republican administrations,

484
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:02.640
<v Speaker 2>and it did include members of the Department of Justice.

485
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm allowed to say that much. But there was a

486
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.079
<v Speaker 2>real interesting discussion and debate there about whether or not

487
00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:12.119
<v Speaker 2>the whole DOJ is corrupted. And this is part of

488
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:14.799
<v Speaker 2>what I'm talking about with this dual state idea, or

489
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.720
<v Speaker 2>whether or not it was just a sort of small

490
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.039
<v Speaker 2>part in which he was exerting inappropriate control, but the

491
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.160
<v Speaker 2>rest of it remained fairly normal. And I think what

492
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.039
<v Speaker 2>this story shows is, no, it's not an isolated thing.

493
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.480
<v Speaker 2>He's infecting and trying to undermine the normal law enforcement

494
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.799
<v Speaker 2>function of the Department of Justice of the federal government

495
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.599
<v Speaker 2>and the normal laws that they would use in order

496
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.759
<v Speaker 2>to go about bringing cases based on well crime is

497
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:43.200
<v Speaker 2>being committed. That's what I think he's trying to at

498
00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:46.359
<v Speaker 2>the same time that he reduces that enlarge his use

499
00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.599
<v Speaker 2>of the Department to do things like go after his

500
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:54.160
<v Speaker 2>enemies and search for election fraud and to use the

501
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.000
<v Speaker 2>resources of this department in a way he couldn't in

502
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:01.000
<v Speaker 2>Trump wan to really control it and to under any

503
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.440
<v Speaker 2>semblance of the rule of law. If the question is,

504
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, does Trump coexist with the rule of law,

505
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.079
<v Speaker 2>the answer to me this story helps bring it out

506
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.839
<v Speaker 2>is clearly no, because he's really infecting the entire department.

507
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.599
<v Speaker 3>All Right, we got to take a break.

508
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 1>I just don't understand how like the government is making

509
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:24.240
<v Speaker 1>its own institutions deliberately less transparent to protect foreign criminals. Right,

510
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.720
<v Speaker 1>there's no opinion there that's exactly what's happening. How can

511
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:32.119
<v Speaker 1>citizens meaningly hold this government accountable? Professor, if the government

512
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 1>systematically destroys the data necessary to know what's going on.

513
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I'll sound a few notes of hope. One is, as

514
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.160
<v Speaker 2>we've often talked about, you know, the more we get

515
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 2>these stories that they are hard to explain. You know,

516
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:48.039
<v Speaker 2>that's one thing. This story isn't being covered in the

517
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:50.720
<v Speaker 2>way that it should be. But the more you understand

518
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that he's not just going after his opponents, but he's

519
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 2>trying to actually undermine law enforcement, the more that we

520
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.599
<v Speaker 2>could get that message out, the more it's clear that, well,

521
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:04.240
<v Speaker 2>we need laws that not just create ways of prosecuting criminals,

522
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:07.680
<v Speaker 2>but that also make it a crime to undermine those laws.

523
00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:09.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think that, you know, that's one thing that

524
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.880
<v Speaker 2>we should start thinking about which ties all these stories together.

525
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Certainly with the emoluments legislation that I've talked about that

526
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:18.440
<v Speaker 2>would do it. But I also think to try to

527
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.119
<v Speaker 2>use the office in order to get you know, let's

528
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 2>assume that some of this is going on to try

529
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.240
<v Speaker 2>to help your friends who are potentially going to be

530
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.960
<v Speaker 2>or your allies who are going to be prosecuted. We

531
00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:32.039
<v Speaker 2>have to start to think about how to prohibit that,

532
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.839
<v Speaker 2>how to have judicial intervention to keep it from happening.

533
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.640
<v Speaker 2>And one other way to do it, which did come

534
00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:40.960
<v Speaker 2>up in this meeting of former DLJ officials, would be

535
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:44.880
<v Speaker 2>to create even better protections for people from being fired,

536
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:47.640
<v Speaker 2>because if they knew they couldn't be fired for doing

537
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 2>these things, I think you would have a lot more

538
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:53.960
<v Speaker 2>people bringing cases, standing up refusing to do the president's bidding.

539
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:56.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know, of course, the main thing that we

540
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.519
<v Speaker 2>need to do is to get transparency about what's going

541
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.920
<v Speaker 2>on behind these stories, who is trying to protect. Impeachment

542
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.559
<v Speaker 2>would be yet again, a really important way of doing this.

543
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>If we have a democratic house, all these stories are

544
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.279
<v Speaker 2>on the table for thinking about impeachment.

545
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.839
<v Speaker 1>I agree these moderate saying you can't impeach him again.

546
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 1>He's not going to get convicted. That's not the point.

547
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.200
<v Speaker 1>The point is when you are impeaching him and he

548
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:20.000
<v Speaker 1>is defending himself, he is on the defense, and it

549
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:22.240
<v Speaker 1>makes it harder for them to commit more crimes.

550
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:24.240
<v Speaker 2>And we have to get these you know, you and

551
00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I can do our show, and there are shows like it.

552
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:28.960
<v Speaker 2>It's not getting the kind of coverage that you would

553
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.559
<v Speaker 2>like to see in the mainstream media now. The second

554
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:34.240
<v Speaker 2>it becomes the subject of impeachment, and these stories that

555
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.480
<v Speaker 2>we've been talking about are on the front burner, including

556
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:40.759
<v Speaker 2>the use of truth social in order to sell access

557
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.799
<v Speaker 2>to information, the legislation about you know, the undermining of

558
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:48.920
<v Speaker 2>legislation that's used for normal criminal law enforcement. The more

559
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.319
<v Speaker 2>that we see all of that through impeachment, the more

560
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 2>people will care about it, and the more of course

561
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.680
<v Speaker 2>mainstream media, not just shows like ours, will pick it up.

562
00:29:57.039 --> 00:29:59.160
<v Speaker 1>And I'm sure Barry Weise can't wait to cover this

563
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.920
<v Speaker 1>heavily on the New Six Minutes, especially after she hires

564
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Scott Bayo to be the anchor. Okay, we got to

565
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:06.759
<v Speaker 1>take a break back in just a moment. Let's talk

566
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.279
<v Speaker 1>about some shock gloves too. This is the Oath in

567
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:18.759
<v Speaker 1>the Office. Welcome back to the Oath in the Office podcast.

568
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:22.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm John Fugel sang along with Professor Corey Bretschneider. Corey,

569
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:26.440
<v Speaker 1>Let's move to perhaps the most constitutionally consequential item in

570
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.279
<v Speaker 1>today's show. This White House has now asked the Supreme

571
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.039
<v Speaker 1>Court to intervene after a second lower court ruling blocked

572
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.880
<v Speaker 1>their illegal plan for the US Postal Service to impose

573
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.039
<v Speaker 1>new nationwide conditions on mail voting ahead of the midterm elections.

574
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Because you got to make it a little harder to

575
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.480
<v Speaker 1>exercise her right here, make it a little harder to

576
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.920
<v Speaker 1>exercise or right there. They're not fans of democracy, So

577
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.599
<v Speaker 1>how much authority does a president actually have over the

578
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:53.240
<v Speaker 1>mechanics of federal elections?

579
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:54.880
<v Speaker 3>Because damn, this man is trying.

580
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:58.799
<v Speaker 2>Wow, this is a frightening story. I mean, you have

581
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:02.359
<v Speaker 2>two lenses here, and you know, I can tell you

582
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:04.759
<v Speaker 2>what I think is right, but I also think that

583
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:06.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure what the Supreme Court is going to

584
00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:09.039
<v Speaker 2>say is right. Is the same thing I'm going to say.

585
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:12.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, one lens, which is a lens I wish

586
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.559
<v Speaker 2>I could say, is the obvious right answer that, of

587
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:18.920
<v Speaker 2>course the Supreme Court will enforced. It's not, unfortunately, is

588
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.680
<v Speaker 2>that elections are controlled by the states and by local government.

589
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:27.440
<v Speaker 2>They thank you, federal authority to you know, simply deny

590
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>the ability of people to vote in an election because

591
00:31:31.240 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Trump has decided that they're not eligible. And in particular,

592
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:38.440
<v Speaker 2>what he's done is he's got a slate of voters

593
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:41.359
<v Speaker 2>he thinks are ineligible. And my understanding is that many

594
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.359
<v Speaker 2>of them are citizens. It's just that they're naturalized citizens.

595
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:48.000
<v Speaker 2>So you would think, like, okay, he can't do that,

596
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and Trump won before he took office,

597
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.319
<v Speaker 2>and even in his first term, I would have said,

598
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:57.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, this isn't going to go anywhere. It's just

599
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:00.480
<v Speaker 2>his fantasy. But he's got a way of doing it,

600
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.759
<v Speaker 2>which is he's not really trying to go to the

601
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:05.119
<v Speaker 2>officials at the polls, for instance, which he couldn't do

602
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:08.559
<v Speaker 2>and say don't admit these people to vote. That would

603
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:10.440
<v Speaker 2>never work for the reasons that I'm saying.

604
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.160
<v Speaker 1>Instead, No, that's why they want to send ice there

605
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.079
<v Speaker 1>to intimidate people so they won't try to vote.

606
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:16.119
<v Speaker 2>But to do that, you know, that's another way that

607
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:18.279
<v Speaker 2>he might try. But here's his run around. This is

608
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:22.440
<v Speaker 2>what's scary. He's realized that mail in ballots, of course

609
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.759
<v Speaker 2>come through the post office, and he's claiming that as president,

610
00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:29.559
<v Speaker 2>he has the discretion to order the post office, which

611
00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.279
<v Speaker 2>is part of the executive branch. And actually, there's a

612
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 2>famous case about control of the post office called Myers

613
00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:40.119
<v Speaker 2>versus Nebraska, one of the early cases of the unitary executive.

614
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>People love because it talks about the idea that, yes,

615
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>even though a law tried to prohibit Woodrow Wilson actually

616
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.680
<v Speaker 2>from a political firing, that Article two's executive power means

617
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.720
<v Speaker 2>he can fire the high level official in the post office. Well,

618
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:57.000
<v Speaker 2>that same logic is at play here. I mean, that's

619
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.079
<v Speaker 2>the case that dates back to Woodrow Wilson. But they're

620
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.079
<v Speaker 2>using it. All the president is doing is making an

621
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:08.359
<v Speaker 2>administrative request order to his subordinates to look out for fraud,

622
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:11.160
<v Speaker 2>and he's allowed to do that. You know that it's

623
00:33:11.160 --> 00:33:14.960
<v Speaker 2>not interfering with state election processes. It's just looking at

624
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.119
<v Speaker 2>the mail and trying to prevent mail fraud. That's the

625
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:21.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of argument that they're playing with and developing. And

626
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.839
<v Speaker 2>if you think about it, right, if that lens is

627
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.039
<v Speaker 2>very different than the idea of the state's control elections.

628
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.359
<v Speaker 2>It's the lens right, the federal government, president's control over

629
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.519
<v Speaker 2>his own agencies. And that's where it gets really scary.

630
00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.079
<v Speaker 1>Right, But so are we saying that a president can

631
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.200
<v Speaker 1>use control over a federal agency like the Post Office

632
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:44.920
<v Speaker 1>to essentially change election rules on his own. I mean,

633
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.920
<v Speaker 1>if Congress hasn't authorized a president to impose a particular

634
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:52.559
<v Speaker 1>election requirement, where does that president get the power?

635
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Cory, Well, you know, thankfully, there's a danger here. But

636
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.559
<v Speaker 2>what the lower court said here, the Court of Appeals,

637
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:02.599
<v Speaker 2>was no, he can't do this, and there's actually an

638
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.359
<v Speaker 2>injunction in place that prohibits him from implementing his plan

639
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.280
<v Speaker 2>to get the Post Office to refuse to deliver these ballots.

640
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:13.800
<v Speaker 2>And they're citing not just the Constitution but also federal

641
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:17.360
<v Speaker 2>law that says essentially that that's the argument. So that's

642
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:20.000
<v Speaker 2>what I'm hoping will prevail. But of course, what the

643
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Solicitor General is doing here is trying to go to

644
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.280
<v Speaker 2>the top court in the land in the United States,

645
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:28.159
<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court of the United States, and he's petitioning

646
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:33.039
<v Speaker 2>them to override the Court of Appeals and to use

647
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.960
<v Speaker 2>this more unitary theory. It's just an administrative relationship between

648
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:39.960
<v Speaker 2>the president and the Post Office. And if I told you, well,

649
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.199
<v Speaker 2>they would never do that. The Supreme Court's not going

650
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>to expand the theory of the unitary executive to undermine

651
00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:48.800
<v Speaker 2>statute and the Constitution. Well, you know, good luck to us,

652
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.960
<v Speaker 2>because that's exactly what they've done again and again. This

653
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:54.239
<v Speaker 2>is the same court that, by the way, there used

654
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:57.159
<v Speaker 2>to be at least a tention in constitutional law, the

655
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Meyer's case about control over the Post Office, which I mentioned,

656
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.559
<v Speaker 2>and the counterbalance was the Federal Trade Commission case Humphrey's

657
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Executor that said Congress can create all sorts of laws

658
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.679
<v Speaker 2>that limit the president's ability to hire and fire kind

659
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:15.360
<v Speaker 2>of independent agencies. Well, the Supreme Court this past term

660
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:22.639
<v Speaker 2>just overturned Humphrey's executor. They know the Meyer's idea of control, control, control, control,

661
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:24.880
<v Speaker 2>So that's why on this one, I wish I could

662
00:35:24.920 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 2>say I'm not worried. No, I'm plenty worried about this one.

663
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:29.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, me too.

664
00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:33.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, how can this not be stopped by so

665
00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:36.880
<v Speaker 1>many lawsuits scry. If a president changes the voting procedures,

666
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:41.000
<v Speaker 1>like just months before an election, I would imagine that

667
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:44.000
<v Speaker 1>courts would want to apply a heightened level of scrutiny

668
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.039
<v Speaker 1>because there's such a danger of confusing voters or disrupting

669
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the whole election administration. I mean, everyone knows he's doing

670
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:53.840
<v Speaker 1>this to cheat. Everyone knows there's no problem with elections

671
00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:56.079
<v Speaker 1>when Barack Obama and Joe Biden are in office. But

672
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 1>when he's in office, shit's got to get rearranged, right,

673
00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:02.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I would imagine that this would just get

674
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:04.480
<v Speaker 1>shut down by lawsuits immediately.

675
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, that's what we're in the middle of.

676
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.920
<v Speaker 2>There were successful lawsuits to stop him from doing that.

677
00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:13.800
<v Speaker 2>That's why there's a order to keep him from implementing

678
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:17.280
<v Speaker 2>this plan as of now. But you know, the people

679
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.360
<v Speaker 2>listeners will know the duck rabbit. Right, there's a picture

680
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:22.480
<v Speaker 2>and if I look closely, it looks like a duck.

681
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:23.840
<v Speaker 2>And then if I look at it, it looks like

682
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:24.400
<v Speaker 2>a rabbit.

683
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:25.320
<v Speaker 3>No, it's a duck.

684
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>No, it's a rabbit. Well, the duck part of it,

685
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:31.719
<v Speaker 2>the part that I see says, you know, I don't

686
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 2>think so it's everything that you just said. He's trying

687
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.719
<v Speaker 2>to basically undermine the ability of states to control their

688
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.239
<v Speaker 2>own elections. And his purpose isn't fraud or the common good.

689
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.079
<v Speaker 2>It's to win at all costs. See's the same guy

690
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.320
<v Speaker 2>that specified to the Georgia Secretary of State the number

691
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:48.800
<v Speaker 2>of votes that he needed to win, and that he

692
00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:52.400
<v Speaker 2>wanted to find those votes. So you know that's the

693
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 2>duck part. Now, the Supreme Court is in a different world.

694
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:58.320
<v Speaker 2>They see the rabbit and what the rabbit says. Possibly

695
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:01.079
<v Speaker 2>they haven't said this yet, but what they're solicitor general

696
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:03.920
<v Speaker 2>is saying this. The Solicitor General is a person defends

697
00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:06.920
<v Speaker 2>the United States before the Supreme Court, and what he

698
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 2>sees is is just a president talking to his staff.

699
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:12.639
<v Speaker 2>And who are you to come in and tell him

700
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:14.599
<v Speaker 2>what he can tell the Post Office, which is part

701
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:18.039
<v Speaker 2>of his branch, what to say or how to laws

702
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:18.719
<v Speaker 2>about fraud.

703
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, but I've learned about from you about the Percel principle. Right,

704
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:27.519
<v Speaker 1>isn't that the Supreme Court's concerned about courts changing election

705
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.360
<v Speaker 1>rules close to an election? I mean, couldn't the court say,

706
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:32.679
<v Speaker 1>even if we agree with these changes and they're legal

707
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 1>in the abstract, it's too late to impose them before

708
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:38.440
<v Speaker 1>an election. I mean, wouldn't that seem realistic?

709
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I really hope so, John, They want to have it.

710
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Both ways, mister Trump, But we care about our own reputations.

711
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:46.760
<v Speaker 1>That's the John Roberts way.

712
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, if I think about one of the most

713
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:54.400
<v Speaker 2>what impactful moments in American history in which the Supreme

714
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Court made a decision that impacted presidential election, this is

715
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the midterms, this president, it's Bush vy Gore, And you

716
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.719
<v Speaker 2>know what's the rationale for it? They actually said, you know,

717
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.320
<v Speaker 2>in Bush v. Gore in the court said, this is

718
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.159
<v Speaker 2>not a precedent. It's a one time thing. Every time

719
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.519
<v Speaker 2>a court makes a decision, it's a precedent. That's why

720
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.800
<v Speaker 2>it's a court of law, because it's making apining supposedly

721
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.559
<v Speaker 2>based on independent principles of law, not based on politics.

722
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.119
<v Speaker 2>But yet in that decision they seem to say, well,

723
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.679
<v Speaker 2>we're just deciding. And then they had a mismash of

724
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>explanations that really made no sense. Some were about states

725
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.599
<v Speaker 2>rights on the notical too. Some are about equal protection.

726
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:37.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if I've ever talked about this

727
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:40.760
<v Speaker 2>on the podcast, but I had in my life. One

728
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.760
<v Speaker 2>of the most bizarre but interesting moments. When I was

729
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.519
<v Speaker 2>a graduate student, Justice Scalia came to speak and he

730
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.639
<v Speaker 2>said that he wanted to meet with a few students.

731
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 2>It was right after Bush v. Gore, and I said

732
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.800
<v Speaker 2>to him exactly what I'm saying to you all. I said,

733
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, this decision Bush v. Gore doesn't make any

734
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.760
<v Speaker 2>sense because on the one hand, there's this argument about

735
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.639
<v Speaker 2>Article two and the importance of respecting state legislatures and

736
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:11.239
<v Speaker 2>why it is that the state courts in Florida disrespected

737
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:15.519
<v Speaker 2>the state legislature under the electoral college. And on the

738
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.000
<v Speaker 2>other hand, there's this argument about national equal protection and

739
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 2>why we have to count all votes nationally the same way.

740
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.679
<v Speaker 2>And we've never said that second thing. And you, Justicelei,

741
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 2>this is what I said to him, have never said

742
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:31.039
<v Speaker 2>anything like that, so you know what's going on. And

743
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the first thing he was like, famous, you know, for

744
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 2>being pugnacious and making sure we first thing he says

745
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.719
<v Speaker 2>is well, liberals like you seem to love the equal

746
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.440
<v Speaker 2>protection clause. And finally I used it, so you know,

747
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:44.880
<v Speaker 2>and I said, you know, come on, this isn't your

748
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:47.960
<v Speaker 2>jurispru It's not what you believe in, and he basically

749
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.440
<v Speaker 2>was like, you know, sometimes you just need to make

750
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:54.440
<v Speaker 2>a decision basically. Yet it's political, it's pragmatic. You're not

751
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:57.599
<v Speaker 2>really seeing the reasoning. And you know that's the reality

752
00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:01.679
<v Speaker 2>kid of how it works. At least you know. That's

753
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:05.159
<v Speaker 2>what scares me that in that huge case, it wasn't

754
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.039
<v Speaker 2>decided as a matter of law, it was really politics.

755
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Ralph Nader, when I spoke to him, once called it

756
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:13.360
<v Speaker 2>a judicial coup, and I think that was an interesting

757
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.639
<v Speaker 2>way to put it. And here we are again.

758
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 1>Wow, you were right, Corey. This is a depressing episode.

759
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:20.920
<v Speaker 1>I really, I just I'm trying so hard here. I

760
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.000
<v Speaker 1>do want to say at least Scalia died doing what

761
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:26.920
<v Speaker 1>he loved, taking expensive free gifts from rich scumbacks. But

762
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.079
<v Speaker 1>it just seems like this is the cycle now, like

763
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:31.000
<v Speaker 1>we have to teach kids civics in a whole new way.

764
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:32.039
<v Speaker 3>This is what this is.

765
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:36.159
<v Speaker 1>It the president does something that's illegal, lower court blocks it,

766
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:40.280
<v Speaker 1>the administration appeals and appeals until the Supreme Court always

767
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 1>gets asked to intervene. I mean, isn't the Supreme Court

768
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:47.760
<v Speaker 1>becoming like the de facto administrative veto point in American government.

769
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, SNL did a skit about trying to rewrite

770
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:54.760
<v Speaker 2>how a bill becomes a law the Schoolhouse rock song.

771
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:57.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm just a bill sitting on Capitol Hill,

772
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.559
<v Speaker 2>and it was a video of I mean, is Keenan

773
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Thompson pushing He's an executive order and he pushes the

774
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:06.960
<v Speaker 2>bill down the stairs, and the executive order is sort

775
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.840
<v Speaker 2>of taking over. That's part of it. But I think

776
00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:12.239
<v Speaker 2>what they're missing and what you're adding to it is

777
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.400
<v Speaker 2>it's really the Supreme Court is wrangling all of it

778
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:19.840
<v Speaker 2>together in its own image, and it's not the idea

779
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that it's using law. You know, I wish, having taught

780
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:26.159
<v Speaker 2>constitutional law for more than two decades, that I could

781
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.000
<v Speaker 2>just say, well, you know, let me explain it. I

782
00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 2>used to say things like that, let me explain it.

783
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:33.440
<v Speaker 2>It's more complicated. It's not more complicated. The Supreme Court

784
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:37.320
<v Speaker 2>might interfere with our election because of this theory that

785
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, election fraud is the business of the president.

786
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh that's not the reason why that interfere with our election.

787
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Because they were aristocrats, and this is how the systems

788
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.679
<v Speaker 1>always protected itself since the founders decided only white males

789
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.199
<v Speaker 1>who own land should be allowed to vote. It's a

790
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:52.920
<v Speaker 1>big club and we're not in it, right. I mean,

791
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:54.639
<v Speaker 1>we got to take a break. But let me just

792
00:41:54.679 --> 00:41:56.800
<v Speaker 1>ask you, I mean, ten years from now, looking back

793
00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:59.199
<v Speaker 1>on this, isn't it just going to look like the

794
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:03.519
<v Speaker 1>entire of this administration was to just commit crimes long

795
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.400
<v Speaker 1>enough until the Supreme Court stops them.

796
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:06.719
<v Speaker 3>That's it, right.

797
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:10.639
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump's you know, whole strategy as a litigant is

798
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 2>always delayed, delayed, delay, and he did this incredibly successful

799
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:18.199
<v Speaker 2>in the cases against him in Florida, the Document's case

800
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:21.159
<v Speaker 2>and in the January sixth case that were brought by

801
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:25.199
<v Speaker 2>Jack Smith. He delayed, delayed, delayed. He used this immunity decision,

802
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:27.880
<v Speaker 2>which didn't They never decided that he had immunity, that

803
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.800
<v Speaker 2>these were public acts, and in fact they might not have.

804
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.000
<v Speaker 2>But he became president, and once he became president, the

805
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:36.480
<v Speaker 2>Department of Justice was under his control. They weren't going

806
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.880
<v Speaker 2>to prosecute him, and they also have a policy against

807
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.480
<v Speaker 2>prosecuting sitting president. So delay, delayed, delay, you know that

808
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:45.679
<v Speaker 2>that's part of the story. But it's more than that too.

809
00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:50.159
<v Speaker 2>It's a court that routinely has enabled by the way

810
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:53.039
<v Speaker 2>they weren't doing this as an extreme away under Joe

811
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Biden has enabled this president and you know that looks

812
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:00.079
<v Speaker 2>like politics. And I come to the sad conclusion, and

813
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 2>of course it is.

814
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:02.840
<v Speaker 1>We got to take a quick break. But when we

815
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.639
<v Speaker 1>come back, Corey, can we talk about shock gloves? Because

816
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to spoil what I got you for Christmas.

817
00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 1>But we really got to have this conversation back in

818
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:19.239
<v Speaker 1>a moment with the Oath and the Office. Welcome back

819
00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:21.280
<v Speaker 1>to the Oath in the Office podcast. I'm John Fugel

820
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.000
<v Speaker 1>sang along with Professor Corey the mac Bretschneider. Corey, let's

821
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.480
<v Speaker 1>talk about something that sounds like it was invented at

822
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the deepest darkest s and m dungeon that Stephen Miller

823
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Dwells in the Associated Press says that ICE is going

824
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.159
<v Speaker 1>to spend as much as twenty million of our taxpayer

825
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:41.239
<v Speaker 1>dollars to buy gloves that are capable of delivering painful

826
00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:45.199
<v Speaker 1>electric shocks to other people upon direct contact, because these

827
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 1>are Christians who like to hurt people. DHS is saying

828
00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.440
<v Speaker 1>it's a less lethal compliance tool. Tom Holman has defended them.

829
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:54.840
<v Speaker 1>There's another option that's short of deadly.

830
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:55.199
<v Speaker 2>For us.

831
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.639
<v Speaker 1>And when was Tom Holman anything but the most forthright

832
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.440
<v Speaker 1>law abiding man, Corey. But what is the constitutional standard

833
00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:07.679
<v Speaker 1>that governs the use of electrical shocks against somebody by

834
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:09.039
<v Speaker 1>an immigration officer?

835
00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, I have to say, I'm still stuck on

836
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the idea that this is my Christmas gift.

837
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.199
<v Speaker 3>But well, let's see, let's see. Yeah, well you answer

838
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:16.679
<v Speaker 3>this question.

839
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.559
<v Speaker 1>You've got to heard Ito on now I'm feeling I'm

840
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:21.559
<v Speaker 1>not here to King shame Cory. Whatever you're into is

841
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:24.840
<v Speaker 1>fine with me. But but I mean, immigration officers are

842
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 1>allowed to inflict electric shock pain on people?

843
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:30.559
<v Speaker 3>Covers this?

844
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.199
<v Speaker 2>No, And you know, let's talk about what immigration officers

845
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.639
<v Speaker 2>are supposed to be doing. They're supposed to be Yes,

846
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.719
<v Speaker 2>they have the ability to enforce federal immigration law. And

847
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 2>in our system, the federal government has control over immigration

848
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.840
<v Speaker 2>policy and that gives them certain rights to investigate whether

849
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:49.800
<v Speaker 2>or not somebody is in the country lawfully.

850
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.719
<v Speaker 3>But that would this will deport them with no due process.

851
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean the thing but what this department has done

852
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.719
<v Speaker 2>is turned ice into this deportation for us and a

853
00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:02.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of militia and so as protests. You know, this

854
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.599
<v Speaker 2>is what scares me of course that as protesters start

855
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.079
<v Speaker 2>to surround them and to use their First Amendment rights.

856
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Just because there are rights of the federal government to

857
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.000
<v Speaker 2>enforce immigration laws, that doesn't mean that we lose our

858
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:19.360
<v Speaker 2>right to protest. They are massive abuses. And what we've seen,

859
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:24.039
<v Speaker 2>what they've done already with the killings in Minnesota for instance,

860
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.599
<v Speaker 2>what are they going to do with these gloves? You know,

861
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.280
<v Speaker 2>in these confrontations. I just see protesters, you know, being

862
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.400
<v Speaker 2>illegally attacked, and there's no law in the books that

863
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:35.119
<v Speaker 2>allows that.

864
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Let's say, these people are allowed to murder citizens and

865
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.159
<v Speaker 1>not face any kind of accountability.

866
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.000
<v Speaker 2>It's one thing, you know, too, we've talked about the

867
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:47.000
<v Speaker 2>role of the states versus the federal government. There is

868
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:49.800
<v Speaker 2>no way that any US attorney is going to bring

869
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:53.599
<v Speaker 2>cases against ICE agents. I'm just not seeing it, even

870
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:54.760
<v Speaker 2>when they engage in.

871
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:56.280
<v Speaker 3>Not until twenty twenty nine, they won't.

872
00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:59.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right, and let's not forget that just because

873
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>it's not being brought now that the next administration will

874
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.280
<v Speaker 2>have the power to do that. I certainly hope that happens.

875
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:08.159
<v Speaker 2>But you know, there is a role for states in

876
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.079
<v Speaker 2>bringing these prosecutions, and there isn't an explanation, a good

877
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:17.119
<v Speaker 2>explanation of why state prosecutors and local prosecutors haven't brought

878
00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:20.440
<v Speaker 2>these cases they should be. I think there's some worry

879
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.679
<v Speaker 2>about the idea that the federal government is supreme. But

880
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:28.840
<v Speaker 2>if you murder somebody and you're an officer, you're subject

881
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:31.280
<v Speaker 2>to the same criminal laws as everybody else. And yes,

882
00:46:31.320 --> 00:46:34.360
<v Speaker 2>there is a limited kind of immunity for federal officers,

883
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:38.079
<v Speaker 2>but it's not absolute. And so anyway, as we see

884
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:42.000
<v Speaker 2>this department clearly not abandoning its vigilanti ways, you know,

885
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.360
<v Speaker 2>we've got to start pushing local prosecutors, some of them

886
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.159
<v Speaker 2>are elected to bring these cases.

887
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.039
<v Speaker 3>It's just Jesus Christ. How these people hate Jesus Christ.

888
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 3>I got to say.

889
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:53.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, their argument from the government is, well, it's

890
00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.079
<v Speaker 1>non lethal, so it's preferable to killing people. Right, It's

891
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:01.400
<v Speaker 1>not deadly for us, it's non lethal. My understanding is

892
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:06.599
<v Speaker 1>the question under the Fourth Amendment is reasonableness, Professor, Just

893
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:10.480
<v Speaker 1>the fact that a weapon is classified as less lethal

894
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.599
<v Speaker 1>tell us anything about whether its use is still constitutionally

895
00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:16.400
<v Speaker 1>reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

896
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I mean to me, look, there are entitlements of ice

897
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:24.840
<v Speaker 2>officers to what's called qualified immunity. So they have made

898
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>a crime, you know, like assault, it's not as easy

899
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:33.039
<v Speaker 2>to prosecute them, especially if they had the understanding and

900
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.480
<v Speaker 2>were intending to really just enforce the law. But the

901
00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:39.400
<v Speaker 2>idea that it's just a murder that's illegal can be

902
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:42.800
<v Speaker 2>prosecuted and not assault. You know, imagine we can use

903
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.559
<v Speaker 2>a million hypotheticals to think about it. Imagine that an

904
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:50.000
<v Speaker 2>ice officer, you know, gets irritated with a protester and

905
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:54.239
<v Speaker 2>some these shot gloves to attack them. That's assault. You know,

906
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:57.360
<v Speaker 2>who aren't simple and there's no qualified immunity that should

907
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.480
<v Speaker 2>protect them. So no, the fact that it's assault rather

908
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:03.920
<v Speaker 2>than deadly force, I don't see that that has any

909
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:06.239
<v Speaker 2>relevance to the question of whether or not a crime

910
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:08.159
<v Speaker 2>was committed by these officers.

911
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, doesn't matter whether the person is, you know,

912
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.480
<v Speaker 1>attacking the officer or resisting arrest, or trying to run

913
00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:16.559
<v Speaker 1>away or just refusing to comply with a direction. I mean,

914
00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:19.679
<v Speaker 1>if an officer has a device where you can cause

915
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:21.800
<v Speaker 1>pain to a human being at the press of a button,

916
00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.719
<v Speaker 1>it seems like that technology will change the officer's incentives here.

917
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:29.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's it's an interesting point, because look,

918
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:31.880
<v Speaker 2>how do you what you're really asking, which I think

919
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 2>is and we're all just starting to think about this.

920
00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Is it possible to use these gloves at all in

921
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:41.000
<v Speaker 2>a legal way? Okay, so you can restrain somebody in

922
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:45.159
<v Speaker 2>order to detain them in imagine a lawful detaining situation.

923
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Is there any universe in which using these gloves is

924
00:48:48.119 --> 00:48:52.199
<v Speaker 2>just a sort of detention you know technique. You know,

925
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:56.079
<v Speaker 2>imagine somebody that has I'm trying to think of an equivalent, like,

926
00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, shooting bullets out of their vest every time

927
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:01.840
<v Speaker 2>they do and arrest, and they claim that this is

928
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:04.960
<v Speaker 2>just in the or bebes that are meant to maim

929
00:49:05.079 --> 00:49:08.440
<v Speaker 2>somebody rather than cause pain. You know that there are

930
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:10.639
<v Speaker 2>techniques that you can use and then there are techniques

931
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.000
<v Speaker 2>that you can't use in detention. And this strikes me

932
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:16.239
<v Speaker 2>as obviously over the top. So it isn't just the

933
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.280
<v Speaker 2>intent here that matters. The question really is is there

934
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.719
<v Speaker 2>any lawful use of these or is it the whole

935
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:26.079
<v Speaker 2>existence of the gloves just something that strikes us as

936
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:28.599
<v Speaker 2>not in the pursuit of any kind of legitimate duty

937
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:29.559
<v Speaker 2>of these officers.

938
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:33.239
<v Speaker 1>Corey, I'm looking at all these stories today that we've

939
00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:38.000
<v Speaker 1>covered about presidential self enrichment and corporate transparency and election

940
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:42.159
<v Speaker 1>administration and now violence against immigration. I mean, it seems

941
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:45.840
<v Speaker 1>like it's all about who watches the people who exercise

942
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:49.199
<v Speaker 1>government power. Is that the thread that links these stories together.

943
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:53.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yes, And you know, I would kind of divide

944
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.639
<v Speaker 2>in our conversation into two other themes. One is that

945
00:49:55.719 --> 00:49:59.079
<v Speaker 2>the for profit presidency, that this president has really taken

946
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:02.000
<v Speaker 2>this office to be for the public good, and we

947
00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:05.079
<v Speaker 2>see that in the oath itself the name of the podcast,

948
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:08.400
<v Speaker 2>to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. We see that

949
00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in the obligation to take care that the laws are

950
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.760
<v Speaker 2>faithfully executed. And what has he done. He's tried to

951
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:18.880
<v Speaker 2>make money by you know, enriching himself and including you know,

952
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:21.719
<v Speaker 2>giving a chance to buy in to the insider trading

953
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.119
<v Speaker 2>that evidently has gone on in regard to oil futures,

954
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:27.559
<v Speaker 2>and you know other parts of this presidency and the

955
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:31.960
<v Speaker 2>crypto corruption that we've seen. So you know, that's part

956
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.719
<v Speaker 2>of the theme. And then the other thing that I've

957
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:36.360
<v Speaker 2>tried to sketch too is that, you know, throughout all

958
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.920
<v Speaker 2>these stories, I think that we've carved out the way

959
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.960
<v Speaker 2>in which the corruption is spreading. You know, it's not

960
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:44.480
<v Speaker 2>just like this one guy in the corner, you know,

961
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 2>like Spirou Agnew took bribes. Okay, did that infect the

962
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:51.280
<v Speaker 2>whole federal government? No, it was some small time con

963
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:53.840
<v Speaker 2>guy that was like off in a corner taking bags

964
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:54.280
<v Speaker 2>of money.

965
00:50:54.719 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 1>That's even care. That's the difference. People cared when Agnew

966
00:50:57.559 --> 00:50:57.800
<v Speaker 1>did it.

967
00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:01.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he was removed office, and you know there

968
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 2>was a criminal content, Yeah, and you know, resulting of

969
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:08.320
<v Speaker 2>course and Ford taking over. But here what's happening is

970
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.239
<v Speaker 2>so much it's not only that there's no accountability, it's

971
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:14.599
<v Speaker 2>that it's so much bigger that you know, he's selling

972
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:20.440
<v Speaker 2>the office to basically public subscribers who want inside trading information,

973
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and then he's also killing off And this was so

974
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:26.679
<v Speaker 2>much of what we also talked about the ability of

975
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:29.840
<v Speaker 2>everyone else in the government to do their jobs, to

976
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:33.079
<v Speaker 2>take their oades seriously. And that's what I think makes

977
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:36.239
<v Speaker 2>this not just an isolated corruption, but something that really

978
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:40.320
<v Speaker 2>has not an isolated, you know, presidential set of crimes,

979
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:43.480
<v Speaker 2>but really destroying the whole integrity of the country.

980
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:45.400
<v Speaker 1>So, just to wrap up what I got here, is

981
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:49.639
<v Speaker 1>a president is allowed to monetize access to information generated

982
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:53.280
<v Speaker 1>by the presidency. A president's allowed to refuse to enforce

983
00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:56.280
<v Speaker 1>a federal law if he doesn't like the law. A

984
00:51:56.360 --> 00:51:59.760
<v Speaker 1>president can essentially rewrite a federal law through his executive

985
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:04.679
<v Speaker 1>brand orders. A president can impose nationwide election rules without

986
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Congress if he feels like it. And an immigration officer

987
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:12.599
<v Speaker 1>can shock you because he doesn't like you. Today, Am

988
00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:14.639
<v Speaker 1>I getting all this right? This is where we're at now,

989
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:16.480
<v Speaker 1>right in the dystopian America?

990
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know you've taught me many times the first

991
00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:21.920
<v Speaker 2>rule of improvs yes, and so I'm going to say yes,

992
00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:24.880
<v Speaker 2>and that is all happening. That's what we've been talking about.

993
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:27.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, this isn't the way it's supposed to be.

994
00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.239
<v Speaker 2>If you read the Constitution itself, it says the opposite.

995
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:33.119
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't say that a president uses the office for

996
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.599
<v Speaker 2>his own personal profit. It says you can't do that.

997
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.719
<v Speaker 2>And the idea of civil servants taking odes, I mean,

998
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:42.280
<v Speaker 2>they're not supposed to just be beholden to a president

999
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that wants to use them for his own personal gain.

1000
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:48.159
<v Speaker 2>So we've just lost our way as a country in

1001
00:52:48.199 --> 00:52:53.039
<v Speaker 2>such a fundamental way that the Charter has just become

1002
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 2>the opposite of what we're doing. Yeah, we have lost

1003
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:56.360
<v Speaker 2>our way.

1004
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:58.280
<v Speaker 1>I think you're right, But I mean, are we witnessing

1005
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:02.400
<v Speaker 1>the failure of the constitutional guardrails here or are we

1006
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:06.119
<v Speaker 1>actually witnessing No, it sucks, but the system is still functioning.

1007
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.480
<v Speaker 1>The courts, the Congress, journalists, citizens are still pushing back.

1008
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:12.400
<v Speaker 1>We're doing this podcast. I mean, right, like, it seems

1009
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.320
<v Speaker 1>like the system is still functioning in spite of the

1010
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:16.119
<v Speaker 1>naked corruption.

1011
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:19.719
<v Speaker 2>I think that we are fighting back. He hasn't succeeded

1012
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:22.360
<v Speaker 2>in collapsing the system, but we are also seeing the

1013
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:25.079
<v Speaker 2>weaknesses of our system. I don't want to blame it

1014
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:27.039
<v Speaker 2>all on him and say that, you know, all we

1015
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:28.960
<v Speaker 2>need to do is fight back. We need to really

1016
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:33.679
<v Speaker 2>recreate the guardrails of the system. The Constitution itself really

1017
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:36.320
<v Speaker 2>is an outline of the guardrails, but it has to

1018
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:39.519
<v Speaker 2>be filled in with laws that make what he's doing illegal.

1019
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.320
<v Speaker 2>We haven't done that that make it illegal for people

1020
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.480
<v Speaker 2>to participate with a president who wants to involve them

1021
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:48.599
<v Speaker 2>in his own crimes through this kind of insider trading.

1022
00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:51.400
<v Speaker 2>And so I really think that part of the lesson

1023
00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:54.719
<v Speaker 2>of all of this isn't just that we need to

1024
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:58.159
<v Speaker 2>fight back, but that we need to recreate the guardrails

1025
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:00.360
<v Speaker 2>that protect us from this ever happening again.

1026
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.079
<v Speaker 1>Amen, Professor, I'm so grateful for this conversation today. I

1027
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:06.639
<v Speaker 1>know we went really deep, but I got to say,

1028
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to miss Caroline Levitt lying about the price

1029
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:12.199
<v Speaker 1>of eggs, lying about tariffs, lying about Epstein, lying about

1030
00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:16.000
<v Speaker 1>a breakout, Garcia, lying about DEI, lying about the reflecting pool,

1031
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:18.679
<v Speaker 1>lying about signal gates. So it's really comforting to actually

1032
00:54:18.679 --> 00:54:21.840
<v Speaker 1>be here and break it all down, Corey. What's the

1033
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:23.760
<v Speaker 1>best way for our listeners to follow you and keep

1034
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.760
<v Speaker 1>up with your brilliance the other six days of the week.

1035
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I should remind listeners wherever you're listening to us.

1036
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.599
<v Speaker 2>You could listen to us on any audio podcast platform

1037
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:36.360
<v Speaker 2>or watch us on YouTube. Push that subscribe button and

1038
00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:39.239
<v Speaker 2>tell your friends. There is also an oath in the

1039
00:54:39.320 --> 00:54:43.079
<v Speaker 2>office substack where we go deeper with links to these

1040
00:54:43.079 --> 00:54:46.840
<v Speaker 2>stories and with additional insights that we weren't able to

1041
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.559
<v Speaker 2>get to on the show. So check that out. And

1042
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:51.679
<v Speaker 2>what a pleasure it is to do this with you, John.

1043
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:54.599
<v Speaker 2>It is depressing what's happening every week, but I don't

1044
00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:58.559
<v Speaker 2>feel depressed because I'm really emboldened by the great listeners

1045
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.159
<v Speaker 2>that I've heard from who love even things like license

1046
00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:07.159
<v Speaker 2>plate discussions about constitutional law, and really enjoy these discussions

1047
00:55:07.199 --> 00:55:09.599
<v Speaker 2>with you every week. It's given me hope that we

1048
00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:10.440
<v Speaker 2>will get through this.

1049
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:12.360
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank you. I want to thank Wendy

1050
00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 1>and Beowulf and everyone who puts the show together. You

1051
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:17.280
<v Speaker 1>can hear me every afternoon noon to three Eastern time

1052
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:20.119
<v Speaker 1>on sirius XM's Progress channel. If you don't have Progress,

1053
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:22.639
<v Speaker 1>you can hear it as the John People Saying Podcast

1054
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:25.280
<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your fine podcasts. My book is called

1055
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Separation of Church and Hate, and Corey, thank you so much.

1056
00:55:28.039 --> 00:55:30.079
<v Speaker 1>It's really always a pleasure, and as depressing it as

1057
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 1>it is, I feel much more well armed to face

1058
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:36.920
<v Speaker 1>reality and not hide and vape and watch Kardashians.

1059
00:55:36.960 --> 00:55:37.679
<v Speaker 3>So thank you, sir.

1060
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:40.119
<v Speaker 2>And I just add one thing John, which as I

1061
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:43.920
<v Speaker 2>know you're going to be on vacation and hope you

1062
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:46.119
<v Speaker 2>enjoy that while I know you're working on it's a

1063
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:50.039
<v Speaker 2>worker vacation. Yeah, and just tell listeners too to check

1064
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:54.599
<v Speaker 2>out my discussion next week with Representative Chariot Huffman about

1065
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:58.079
<v Speaker 2>his new book. He's thinking, as you've gotten deeply about

1066
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:00.960
<v Speaker 2>religion and religious freedom in this well.

1067
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:02.639
<v Speaker 1>I'll miss you, Corey, but yes I will be in

1068
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:05.960
<v Speaker 1>Sweden because over there I appear tam. Thank you all

1069
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:08.000
<v Speaker 1>so much for listening, and we will see you next

1070
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:11.719
<v Speaker 1>time on the Oath and the Office