Speaker 1: What is fellasichos. I am Dan Valley coming at you
with another NBA twenty twenty five twenty twenty six season
look ahead. We're onto the Phoenix Suns, which means I
have the distinct pleasure of being joined by the Timeline
podcast Fellas. We have we have Mike V. Hill. I
almost said Sam v Hill. That would have been funny.
Mike V. Hill at protected pick on the socials, spelled
exactly as it sounds, and Sam Cooper at I'm just
gonna say Scooper hoops because it sounds cooler. That's also
spelled exactly as it sounds. Guys, welcome back, Thank you
for coming back. How the heck are you doing?
Speaker 2: Happy to be here, man, Happy to be doing great.
We love doing this every year. Dan and I don't
blame you for mixing up our names because we've been
doing this for so long that we've kind of morphed
into one single personality at this point that oftentimes people
mix us up.
Speaker 3: So that's it's all good.
Speaker 1: Well, I do have inside knowledge that if I ask
you guys about Jonathan Kaminga, that would be a way
to detach the personalities. It's true one another.
Speaker 3: That's true. That's very true.
Speaker 2: I think you would be wasting precious time talking about
Jonathan Kamena this early in the podcast, but we could.
Speaker 3: We could go there if you want. You'd separate us
as being right which is me, and being wrong, which
is Sam. So I appreciate. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I was putting together as outline though, and it was
a little depressing because I don't have like a ton
of a great feel for how this team is gonna play.
And I also find there's too much like Antell early
stuff to talk about. I have to start here, though,
and I'll throw it to you first, Mike, what you
like before getting into the offseason, nitty gritty like, how
are you going to remember this most recent era of
Suns basketball looking basically from them, like pivoting away from
that core that made the finals to what just happened?
Speaker 3: You know, It's a great place to start, and it's
it's kind of fun because I was thinking about this
podcast this morning, preparing to come on with you and
thinking back in the years that we've been on this podcast,
because we've done this every year with you, basically I
think since the year before Chris Paul was traded for
the Suns, if I'm not mistaken, And famously I was
on the podcast with you recording live when the Chris
Paul trade happened. One year, we had to stop the
podcast and restart and added Chris Paul section because Chris
Paul wasn't on the Suns yet. So if you look
back into all of those seasons, there was a season
of the young team sort of putting it all together.
There was the Chris Paul years, they made it to
the NBA Finals, they traded for Kevin Durant, and now
we're here and like, I don't know, like the last
few years two and a half years really with Kevin
Durant on the team I would describe as completely miserable
and not exciting in any way. And it sort of
started with, you know, Matt Ishbia buying the team and
Robert Sarver being gone, which was a very exciting moment.
Robert Sarver famously a terrible owner who did not invest
in the team at all. Matt Ashbia comes here willing
to invest, but the team has gotten worse every year
since he's on the team, and it's hard to look
at anything but that. I really just want them to
be good again while Devin Booker is in his prime.
Speaker 1: I will say Matt Ashbia did have one of the
all time great rebukes of any offseason to where ESPN
had the Sons ranked wherever in there. I don't remember
what the rankings were. It wasn't the future ranks. It
was too early for that. And he responded by saying, well,
they had us like as it being a good team
last year and we were terrible.
Speaker 3: The expert said we'd be good and they were wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty embarrassing. Look, Matt is going to
be a loud owner and he's going to embarrass us
a lot. But he also gave us two dollars hot
dogs and free Sons games on Network TV, so shout
out to him for that.
Speaker 1: How many carbon credits did he purchase, though, I think
is the real question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know that Tias Jones deal. Let's just
take a look at that. Sam.
Speaker 1: When you kind of look back on this, like just
how the Son's got to this point, do you view
any sort of one move or one moment as like
the cardinal sin of what happened? Or is this just
the result of stuff being stockpiled on top of each
other and that exacerbates the situation.
Speaker 4: Cardinal Sin, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I'm tempted to point my finger at
the Bradley Beal acquisition obviously, because i think if there's
anything we've all learned from that in particular, it's that
you just don't trade for a guy with an no
trade clause. You just do not do it unless that
guy is whatever their generational equivalent of Lebron James is right,
like you just you don't do it. And I will
never be in support of anything like that again. But
things were already trending downwards with the Kevin Durant trade
in the first place. They just simply and again it
comes down to Madishbia coming in and James Jones did
not want to give up the entire farm for Kevin Durant,
so to speak. And it's be a leaned his entire
weight on the button and said, no, we're gonna We're
gonna do it. We're gonna give up Michael Bridges and
Cam Johnson and you know, eight first round picks or
four first round picks or whatever. So yeah, it's a
little bit difficult to dissect even with hindsight, though, because
we do understand that, Like, while it was fun that
the Sons were in the finals, we all had a
great time there, they were a ticking time bomb. Chris
Paul was getting older. DeAndre Ayton was, you know, just
largely an oral less, sauceless player who was like, you know,
just bound to regress at some point, and so they
always had to do something. And that's why, you know,
I did not even remotely enjoy the Kevin Durant experience
with the Suns, but I understood the temptation that they
had to do something. The ultimately, the KD trade was
the start of it, and then the Beal trade was
the nail in the coffin.
Speaker 4: They were firmly screwed at that point.
Speaker 1: Actually, this is not on the outline. How did you too,
I don't know how closely you followed the reaction to
Michel Bridges's extension with the Knicks. What did did you
guys have any like, how did you feel about him
getting one hundred and fifty million dollar extension? Oh, it's
not the player that he is now.
Speaker 3: When he was traded off of the Suns for Kevin Durant.
The first thing that Devin Booker said about it was
he'll be a free agent in twenty twenty seven. That's
what Devin Booker said about Michael Bridges, implying that he
could come back to the Phoenix Suns. And that was
actually my first thought about that extension. I was like, well,
I guess not. Which. Of course, good players never reached
free agency anymore. That's just kind of where we're at,
you know, with the way the NBA works. But I don't,
you know, like I think he was. I think he
was pretty good for the Knicks last year. It is
sort of the thing when I think about Michel Bridges
and the reaction that he gets from Knicks fans, I
think that I understand why Devin Booker wants to stay
with one team his entire career, because the team that
you're drafting that no team will ever love you like
the team that you're drafted to, and like because you
are compared to what you were traded for on teams
that you're on. So like Knicks fans, no matter how
good he's going to be on that team, they're going
to think, what about all those picks that we gave
up for him? How good would those mystery box players be?
And I think that's kind of the reaction that they're
going to get, you know, for the next keeping that
team together in this the way that this Eastern Conference
is worth it. And you know, I think even even
on that huge extension he got, he's still going to
be a tradable contract. If they do decide to go
a different way, I'm happy for him. The only NBA
player that follows me on Twitter is Michail Bridges, so
I'm happy for him.
Speaker 1: I was surprised. I think Knicks fans are generally positive
about it. I was surprised at a lot of the
national response because he's currently projected to be the fifty
first highest paid player in the NBA when that extension
kicks in, and I just think that's fine. I wasn't
it feels impressed with right, I wasn't impressed with his
defense last year, and if you were like, but he
did turn it on at some point, And also if
you were expecting him to ever be like a tried
and true number two option, like you were asking him
to be something that he's not supposed to be either.
So I was just surprised that it seemed like so
many people nationally thought it was just bad business, and
I was like, I think that's fine. Even if it's
not a bargain, it feels like it's fine. I guess
we can continue talking about the Suns. Sam, how did
you feel about the Kevin Durant trade, And just to
be clear, the one where he was sent to the Rockets,
not the Suns.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, look, we all wanted a little bit more,
but you understand where the market was. I think that
was the initial reaction. Like when I was reading back,
you know, Jaylen, what was it, Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks.
Obviously the pick that became Kaman Malawach, but I think
a lot of us were like, not even you know,
not even Cam Whitmore, not even Reed Shepherd would have
been too much. But like I've always you know, I
was like, they won't even play that guy. He doesn't
even play. You took him top five, you have zero
minutes for him, and we can't you know, we can't ask.
But no, I understand, like why the return was what
it was. I think the Rockets are going to be
just a super interesting team to follow this year. As
an aside, and I will sort of be a little
bit of a hater for them definitely, but like you know,
just mildly, I think they're gonna be interesting to watch.
I have all of the Sun's Rockets games on my
calendar circled where I'm sure we're gonna get spanked by
twenty plus points every time, but it's gonna be a
fun time regardless. So Malawatch was, I know you have
questions about Kamal Malowach. I'm sure coming you know later on,
but it's it's like almost unfair to him now how
much rests on his shoulders and being the centerpiece of
that trade return if as I don't suspect he can.
Jalen Green is not like a true number two next
to Devin Booker, and I think there are other ways
that you could hope that if Jalen Green himself is
not a number two, maybe he can play himself into
being a trade piece that nets you a true number two. Right,
So that's that might be what they're thinking with Jalen Green.
But otherwise, Malowatch needs to be on unfortunately a little
bit of an accelerated timeline if you're going to make
this work while Devin Booker is still a son. So
I have a lot of faith in Malowatch. I know
we're going to talk about him later, but also he's
like one of the most raw prospects in this draft class,
so it's a little tough for him.
Speaker 1: Do we think Mike die Katie knows he's a vibes
killer at this point, he has to know people thinks that.
But do you think, like within.
Speaker 4: He absolutely knows.
Speaker 2: I am not I am not Mike, I am not Mike,
but I'm answering for Mike. Kevin Durant knows exactly what
people think about him, and everything he's ever seen motivated
by his insecurity.
Speaker 3: It is all motivated by his insecurity.
Speaker 1: I think, oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say,
I'm wondering if there's like a self awareness there to
where he could admit to himself like, yeah, I've kind
of submarine.
Speaker 3: The culture of like three or four teams.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: I think the thing about KD and I think this
is true. I don't even think he'd be wrong about this.
That he would say is that all his teammates like him.
And I think that's true. I think that, you know,
regardless of all the places he's gone and how badly
it's gone, in a bunch of those places, Like, I
don't think Devin Booker dislikes Kevin Durant in any way.
I think they're probably still going to be close friends
after this, and for KD, those relationships are probably what
matters to him the most. You know, It's not like
he can say the same about every coach he's had,
because I think he's had seven or eight since he's
left the Warriors. You know, coach has fired every year
he's on a team essentially when he's on that team,
But the players themselves seem to like him, so I
think he thinks of that as like some sort of
saving grace for him, which I think, you know, there's
some fairness to that, but overall, I think, not just
with the actual on court product, the fan experience got
a lot worse too. When he was trolling fans online
every day, which is his right. Don't get me wrong,
He's allowed to do that, but it's like, every day
you have to see the star player on your team
arguing with Suns fans online, even if they are some
of the dumber ones it is, it's a little miserable
to watch.
Speaker 2: I think that's what was so frustrating for a lot
of not just Suns fans, but honestly kd stands too.
Is that this is a guy who would have, maybe
for every ten adoring kd Stands who are just begging
online for some sort of validation from their demigod or whatever.
You know, Kevin Durant would be able to find the
one guy, the one person in the atmosphere, the environment
who is criticizing him, and then that is always the
person that he would quote, tweet, you know.
Speaker 4: Like you're right.
Speaker 2: It is absolutely his right to conduct his business on
social media as he sees fit, but he made the
space a lot more toxic just by focusing on the toxicity.
He would seek out the negativity, maybe because he feels
it makes him a better player, but that is always
the stuff he would choose to highlight, and he simply
didn't have to.
Speaker 1: I will say, in his defense and any NBA players defense,
if I had a following that huge, I would be
tempted to search, because I'm just a massa chiss, so
I'd be tempted to search my own name, and I
don't know if I could withhold. I don't know how
people deal with criticism at that scale, or even a
slightly smaller scale of it.
Speaker 3: I know what I do. I just ignore any of it.
You pretend it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: That's like that's a superhuman strength. Yeah, like that's a
superhero trade. If you could just ignore it, I I
do a better job of not responding to it now.
But there are absolutely random commenters or people I mentioned.
I won't say anything, but they will ruin like a
couple hours of my.
Speaker 4: Debt right right now.
Speaker 2: That's why podcasters truly are our strongest soldiers.
Speaker 3: And one of them is the coach of the Lakers.
You never know the heights that we could reach. That's true, Mike.
Speaker 1: How did you feel about the and I know how
you feel, but I'm asking you for the people that don't.
How did you feel about the decision to do the
buy out and stretch with Bradley beal Bad.
Speaker 3: I feel badly about that. I don't think that it
was a good idea. I understand the benefits to it.
I think that there's monetary benefits. I think, you know,
ultimately the largest benefit is that saves MATA should be
a ton of money. But just ultimately getting on them
under the second apron is understandable as well. But if
there was any other way to do it that they
turned down because of the ease of just you know,
waving and stretching him, then it was a mistake. Ultimately,
it was a mistake. I understand that sometimes conceptually, like
trading guys for less salary is not always possible. It
takes other teams to agree to that. So if that
was completely unavailable to them, then I understand the idea
of getting to this point, but I would have preferred
to keep him on the team until he was an
expiring contract. I think there was a way out of
this KD. Bradley Beal mess, which was free agency in
twenty twenty seven, like just having a clean cap sheet
outside of Devin Booker's deal that is completely gone. It's
just gone. Now. Every single margin move has to work
out in order for the team to be good with
Devin Booker on it because of that, Like there was
a world where you find a way to do something
with cap space in the future, and I just don't.
He's not a huge fan of that, although I you know,
like there's defense for it. Don't get me wrong, there's
understandable reasons. I just wish that there was any other
way to get him off the team. One thing I
will say to that, though grateful I never have to
watch him play basketball again, that's one thing I will say.
Did not enjoying the Bradley bal experience at all, and
you know I don't. I'm not gonna miss watching him play.
Speaker 4: Let's be honest.
Speaker 2: It would have been a massive distraction that they simply
felt they could not afford if Bradley Beal was still
on the team because they were unable to find a
trade partner, and they would have had to I don't know,
it would have been a thing at media day, throughout
training camp. They may have had to send him home.
They certainly wouldn't have wanted to play him when they've
just now invested a lot in Jalen Green. I get it,
Like I understand, you're within your right to criticize their
cap management and all that, and yes, it's going to
be annoying to have to deal with for the next
five years. But I am so relieved that Bradley Beal
is no longer a member of the Phoenix Suns in
any way, shape or form. In spite of my criticisms
about Kevin Durant, at least I've always been able to
wreck recognize his like godly talents, his you know, his
generational talent. Bradley Beal. I just view as as a loser.
I mean, he's just a career loser. And that's you're laughing, Dan,
but like really the way that the way you don't
understand unless you've been there, how miserable the last two
and a half years have been for Suns fans. It's
they has just been the most miserable. And I've watched
and I've covered worst teams from a record perspective, but
you look up the definition of aurallests in the textbook.
This was an oral less era of Sons basketball. They
were miserable to watch. They played with absolutely no pace,
no movement on offense, no effort on defense. And we're
just so relieved that both of these guys are gone.
Speaker 1: Frankly, I get the relief aspect of it. But as
you point out, like the cat management stuff is tough
to get around, because I doubt they're very close to
docking attacks entirely. Now, I doubt there's a way to
do that without going this direction, but they certainly could
have gotten out of the second apron and so That's
why I just view it as sort of a cheap
out if your manage being your claiming you'll pay whatever,
like you could have gotten out of the set We're
avoided the second apron and avoided like starting those the
clocks on your like draft picks. You could have avoided
that without having this massive Bradley Beal hit on the books,
and you could have just said, hey, I'll pay him
for two years to not play basketball. Then if he's
not gonna agree to a trade somewhere, assuming they could
even find one. I think that's sort of right, like
because Milwaukee did what they did with Dame to actively
like get somebody, and the Suns just did it to
save money. And for someone who has, like Mike said before,
they've invested a lot in the team, They've spent a
lot of money. Like, I don't know, this just kind
of feels like a week move by them. I get
the addition by subtraction, especially when it comes to their
culture and as you guys already said, Jalen Green is
now on the roster, but I just like, what is
the Like, I just don't know what message this sends
to your fans about the next half decade. When you
have that money on the books, it says, like I did,
there's not going to be cap space anytime soon. And
I know stars changed teams via free agency anymore. Don't
change teams via free agency more excuse me, but you
don't have trade assets to go out and make those
types of trades. So it just felt like a really
weak move by them. And that's just sort of where
I land. And I understand there's probably no perfect solution,
but that's the perils of trading for someone that has
a no trade class ever. Again, Sam, what do you
make of the regime change in the front office and
how they went about hiring Brian Gregory? Uh?
Speaker 2: Not great man, you're hitting us with the hard questions. Look,
you know, for anyone who doesn't know, maybe doesn't follow
the team as closely. Matt Ishbia has this close connection
to Michigan State, and it's become I think it started
as a joke, but is also just a fact at
this point that he has heavily prioritized people and interview
processes throughout the organization who share that that Michigan State
background with him. And as we look at Brian Gregory,
who's now the GM of the team and was at
Michigan State with that Ishbia. It's just not someone who
would have gotten this job from any other team. He
has a twenty years experience as a college coach, but
not a particularly successful one, you know, like a lot
of mid major programs that maybe struggle to recruit, struggle
to make NCAA tournaments, that sort of thing, and just
doesn't have NBA front office experience. And yet he's now
the general manager of the Suns. And it sucks, frankly,
but you know, I'm still willing to give him a chance.
It's more so just that we recognize that, you know.
I think what's interesting about Ishbia is, in spite of
the fact that he has been at the core of
every decision made by the Suns over the two and
a half years since he's acquired the team, he has
largely tried to distance himself from, you know, that level
of accountability, saying that like the Kevin Durant trade, the
Bradley Beal trade weren't necessarily his ideas. Try to pawn
that off on other people in the organization when you
make when you make decisions like this to hire people
who just don't deserve the jobs that they're in. You
can't distance yourself from that accountability anymore. We now fully
understand that matt Ishbia, this is matt Ishbia's show. Every
decision that is made is because of Matt Ishbia. It's
not because of Brian Gregory or anyone else, Josh Bartlestein
who's the CEO, or anyone else. This is matt Ishbia's decision.
And so that's fine, okay, if that is what it is. Like,
I understand, you spent four billion dollars on the team.
You want to make those decisions, but you're going to
get the criticism that comes with that. And you know,
I just hope Ishbia kind of comes around to understanding
that going forward, that we can all kind of see
through the facade. Those of us who like are used
to watching and covering these teams anyway, and we know
what the situation is.
Speaker 1: Mike, how did you feel about the Jordan ott Higher.
I know very little about him aside from hey, he's
also got ties to the State.
Speaker 3: Of Michigan, Michigan State Universe. In fact, he got his
master's degree there. But he and he was an intern
I believe under Tom Izzo Brian Gregory, by the way,
I will mention, coached Mattishbia. Like the ties are very strong.
He was literally an assistant coach when Matt Ashbia was
on that championship team at Michigan State. I think that
Jordan Ought, though the coaching search, like Brian Gregory, does
not have a resume that should have allowed him to
be a general manager in the NBA, Jordan Ought has
a resume that does lead to him being a head
coach in the NBA, even though he does have a
tied to Michigan State. It's loose at best, but he
he is the he was just Jamari Carroll is an
assistant coach for the Suns now. I will mention because
they met when Jordan was an assistant to Mike Budenholzer
on the Atlanta Hawks, and then he went on to
be at other stops with him in the future. Damari
Carroll described Jordana as the architect of the Cleveland Cavaliers
offense last year, and if you watch the way the
Cleveland Cavaliers played offense last year, it's a very exciting prospect.
It's a pick and roll heavy offense that has a
ton of off ball movement. They play fast, they play
with pace in the half court, they shoot threes, but
they also get to the rim. And I think they
have a guy who understands the nuances of modern NBA
basketball and kind of addresses all of the problems that
the Phoenix Suns had last year. The Sons also signed
a player named Nigel Hayes Davis who played He was
the MVP of the EuroLeague Final four last year. That's
how they do the MVP's there, and he described Jordan
Not as having the type of basketball tism that you
need to be a successful NBA coach, which not the
way I would describe it. But Nigel Hayes Davis's point.
Speaker 4: Was, like, Davis is a very funny guy.
Speaker 3: If you yes interview with Yes, yes he is. Jordan
Not is someone who is very, very clearly the way
that everyone describes him, obsessed with basketball and wants to
understand sort of where it's going in the future, you know,
and I think I'm excited to see, you know, like, ultimately,
understanding basketball is only a small part of the job.
Every head coach does understand it to some extent. It's
about how you communicate that to your team and how
much buy in that they have, so you know, we'll see,
like they don't have the personnel to be a great team,
but if we see them playing the right way on
a day to day basis, I think that's an exciting thing,
especially for a young coach who could be with the
team for a long time. So fingers crossed ultimately.
Speaker 1: For me, I think the way he emphasized and I
guess that was his introductory presser, that was reading quotes
from movement just felt really important because like that feels
like this team's best shot at generating rim pressure for
the first time since what two thousand and nineteen or
like twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2: I'm sure, Wow, I don't even know, Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1: So like I'm more open to that, Like that felt
like a process that was a real process. At least
they're they're coaching higher so but those are the toughest
hires to judge as well as because you have to
see a play on the court and I don't know
what the personnel they have, Like, I don't know how
much you hang on his shoulders. He is, he does
have a reputation. I think he got a lot of
that in Atlanta first player development and so like that
could bode well for you know, some of those internal
development guys that you talked about on your podcast Who
Knows Good Plug, Sam. What do you make of the
Devin Booker extension and the reaction to it and will
there be limits to this dude's loyalty? I thought what
Mike said at the top was interesting, and I never
really thought of it in those terms about how he
understands why Devin Booker wants to play for one team
when you look at how these you know, these fans
that adopt you basically via trade, how they can react
when you don't perform up to snuff.
Speaker 2: Ultimately, I don't you know. I don't know Devin Booker personally,
and so I don't really know, well, hold on, is
that true? That's true, man, I don't know the inner
machinations of his mind. But the extension that you're referring to,
I think it's important because as you know Dan, you
know maybe better than anyone else. People don't read these days,
they don't really process things beyond him as well.
Speaker 1: For my livelihood, let me tell you.
Speaker 2: And short clips and so let's just point out the
fact that that was a two year one hundred and
forty five million dollar extension that Devin Booker signed, which
does not kick in until twenty twenty eight. I think
the twenty twenty eight twenty twenty nine season. He has
a full three years left on his current deal before
that extension even kicks in. I think the reason that's
important to highlight is because I saw a lot of
headlines based on a factual statement, which is that like,
Devin Booker signs most lucrative extension per year ever, which
is technically true, but by the time that extension actually
kicks in, it will be the same equivalent extension or
even less that other guys are signing, you know, like
Jokic hasn't signed his extension yet, Jannis hasn't signed his
extension yet, Jason Tatum I think did sign or Jason
Tatum was on like a little bit of an earlier timeline,
you know, signing a contract extension like a couple of
years ago. But he will be signing an extension by
twenty twenty eight that is even more lucrative than the
one that Devin Booker will be on. Right, So of
course you can have questions, is Booker going to be
playing at a seventy two and a half million dollar
level when he's thirty three.
Speaker 4: Probably not. This is just something you do.
Speaker 2: It's just something you have to do, and whatever you
know keeps the guy you know happy and in your environment,
it's worth it, and there's there's simply no alternative for
the Suns. Devin Booker is synonymous with the city of Phoenix.
At this point, you have the opportunity to potentially make
this guy a son's lifer. Maybe he gets sufficiently pissed
off at some point that that isn't the case, and
it becomes like a Damian Lillard in Portland situation where
he has to go try something else and fail for
a couple years and then he comes back. You never know,
but yeah, it's I have absolutely no issues with the
Booker contract extension.
Speaker 1: I totally understand it from the team's perspective. And it's
also just there's like they guaranteed technically an extra one
year when you look at the player option the way
it moves, so they gave him the ability to guarantee
two years. I guess what confuses me not about the extension,
but it's tough to square away, like how loyal he
might be versus I don't believe necessarily where this team
is headed, but like it feels like there has to
be limits to his loyalty at some point or I
don't see this ending any other way. Then well, he's
eventually gonna get traded. That doesn't mean you'll give him
the extension. Again, this is totally separate from that. So Mike,
what would need to happen not to finalize his entire
future with the team this year, but like, what does
a season look like in which the Sun send a
message to Devin Booker that says we're at least headed
in what could be the right direction from here.
Speaker 3: It's a great question. Making the playoffs I think would
be really helpful, and that is I think it's an
uphill battle for them in this coming year. It would
take a pretty massive season by guys we're gonna talk
about soon. I'm sure Jalen Green and Mark Williams in particular.
If those guys can find a way to be the
best they've ever been next year, maybe they have some
small chance of that. But like, you know, like it's
a lot on the team to put it together and
to justify it for him. But I also think he
needs to play better to last year I think was
such a disaster in so many ways. Players, so many
of the players on the Suns played below what they
could do, and it seems like the unhappiness post trade
deadline after the Suns tried to sneak trade Kevin Durant
just permeated the entire locker room and nobody really played
well beyond that trade deadline. So it's really difficult to
square what this season will look like to what last
season looked like. It just nobody seemed to like Mike
Budenholezer either, and we were excited about that. You know,
twenty five and seven that's what he averaged last year,
twenty five points seven assists and like and I would
call it a bad season for Devin Booker, which is
just it says where we're at with him and how
we view what's expected out of him. But so much
more of what the team is going to look like
rests on his shoulders. Next year. There is no Kevin
Durant anymore. He is very clearly the main leader on
this team and the main superstar on this team, and
so you know, ultimately.
Speaker 2: The only competent pick and roll ball handler remains to
be seen, but there's a chance that Sam.
Speaker 1: On one of your podcasts recently, you had said something like,
Devin Booker better play defense this year. My first thought was, like,
he just posted his highest true usage for anyone who
just doesn't know, like it incorporates passing potential assists of
his career and it might need to be higher this season.
Does Colin Gillespie? So can you expect him to be
much better on defense? That I don't even know if
that warrants a discussion.
Speaker 2: Well, defense is so much of a vibes thing too though,
it's you know, and an infectious energy thing. And again
I just point to the fact that I recognize that
much of this is a faith based argument, the addition
by subtraction stuff. But you look at the true miserable
expressions on the faces of every Sun's player last year,
the way that they played defense. It truly brought them
no joy, and it brought me no joy to watch
any of them try to play defense. That you hope
that a lot of this injection of youth and energy
that the Suns and length by the way, too, that
was a big thing we kind of didn't touch on
with Jordan not is. Yes, he wants to play fast,
he wants to play with movement. But the other thing
they're trying to steal from Cleveland and many other teams
are doing this around the league, but recognizing that it's
not twenty fifteen anymore. You can't be the small ball
Warriors and still win anymore. You actually need to be
big at many positions. And with the guys the Suns
brought in this summer, they're actually projected. You know, their
starting lineup is a bit of a problem, and I'm
sure we'll get there too, but they can implement lineups
that are absolutely huge in their front court while still
trying to play fast and maybe shoot a lot of threes.
And I think that's, you know, something they're trying to steal,
in particular from Cleveland. So, yeah, Devin Booker needs to
play defense. Look, I know it's not fair, but he
signed up for.
Speaker 1: Trying to absolve him of playing defense, to be clear,
I just it feels like there's even more offensive responsibility
on his shoulders, and so there is.
Speaker 2: But he helped seventy million dollars, you got it. You know,
you got to play both sides, buddy.
Speaker 1: Sorry, Mike, what does the optimal version of Jalen Green
look like on this team? And how confident are you
that he has the ability to actualize it.
Speaker 3: I'm uh, you know what I should ask you? This
is there like a I'm as I talk, I'm not
going to put you on the spot right away, but
as I talk, try and think about what the what
a good optimal Jalen Green comp is in a player, Like,
think about a player that you could compare what that
is to if you have any idea, because being struggling
I'm struggling with Vien Levigne is interesting.
Speaker 4: I think I brought that up.
Speaker 3: Did I bring that one up on a pods? Possibly?
Like I want it to be like Derek White, you know,
like I like, I want I just want. I want
him to try on defense, and I want him to
shoot ten or eleven threes a game, and I and
and just get to the rim. If you cut out
the entirely the mid range shots or you know, there's
a version of him playing well where he develops a
mid range shot, but he's one of the worst mid
range shooters in the NBA. But if he just focuses
on getting to the rim and shooting threes. I think
that's the best. The Suns described him as the point
guard through Sean Schereniya, so like they're clearly not thinking
the same way as me.
Speaker 4: I don't think.
Speaker 2: I still kind of I know you're saying that, maybe
you're right, but I still sort of reject the veracity
of that report. I think maybe he's going to guard
point guards, but I don't think he's gonna be their
primary ball handler.
Speaker 3: We'll see to.
Speaker 1: Be fair and like sort of to Mike's point, like
the first like year year and a half in Houston,
like that was a different level of defender or at
least effort from Jaalen Green on defense, So maybe he
has the ability to get to that level.
Speaker 3: Nine For the playoffs two, I think he was pretty
good on defense.
Speaker 1: And you have like Dylan Brooks still to insulate him
as well as like Ryan Dunn on this team. So
there's like that's not outside the realm with like Derek
White is like I can't I don't think I ever
could see him defending at that type. It's more of
a role.
Speaker 3: It's more of a role thing than.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, Yeah, we've talked a lot with Jalen
Green about you know, he's been The most optimistic case
I think you can take with Jalen on the Suns
is that he simply has never played with a game
processor like Devin Booker. And you know, we've had four
years of him being in Houston in an offense that
has very little movement, a lot of stagnation, and just
has asked him to do a lot of initiation. And
it's like, well, he's twenty how old is he now?
Twenty twenty three, twenty two? It's year five? What if
you just give up on the idea of Jalen Green
being a superstar and just let him be, you know,
a pretty good kind of number three ish type role
player option, maybe number two if he can get up
there instead where he's almost exclusively playing off of Devin Booker,
instead of being a primary initiator, really focusing on kind
of mary balling his game again, Like, that's not something
that I think you should do ubiquitously with every player,
But in Jalen Green's case, I really think it would
suit him to cut out a lot of the mid
range garbage and just focus on being a little bit
more of a role player, and maybe he could excel
in that role, still average twenty points a game, but
you know, in a kind of Mike's point Derek White
sort of way instead of a Zach Levine's sort of way.
Speaker 4: So I don't know we'll see.
Speaker 3: Levine, though I will say Dan is a good comp
in that Levine shoots a ton of threes too, Jalen
Green did. Like, I don't want to imply that Jalen
Green didn't shoot a ton of threes last year. He did.
He shot a lot of threes last year, but like,
I think pumping that up even more to try to
get to the right place with his shot selection would
make a huge, huge, huge difference. But like, unless the
thing about him that's been interesting is four years in
the league, almost all four of them exactly the same.
There has not been big improvements in his playmaking, in
his shot selection, in his overall you know, efficiency as
a scorer. It's been four years of relatively similar basketball.
So it's difficult for me to come up with a
version of what he does where I just assume the
efficiency is going to make a massive jump, or I
assume that the playmaking is going to make a massive jump,
or even the defense. So finding the right shot selection
within what he's good at. It's a hymn problem and
it's a jor not problem ultimately, and if they can
find a version of that, maybe that's great. But I
will say new player, new team, like young player new
team is a good way to think about it. Maybe
there is something there that we didn't see in Houston.
Maybe a new situation could actually benefit him in a
way that we don't anticipate.
Speaker 1: I think your point about Devin Booker like maybe having
an impact on him and is the best sort of
advantage creator has he ever played alongside is a big
deal because his spot up efficiency has peaked in like
the sixtieth percent time on his best season. I think
it was in like the zero with per b Ball
Index last year. But I don't like that. I'm interesting
with the quality with shots looks like in Phoenix, and
can you also just convince him to play off the
ball more? And like one of the things that Houston
did with a player who's now on the Suns is
they rained in Dylan Brooks a lot on the offensive end,
and that's where I feel like he had like one
of his biley's single best year last season. And so
can you figure out a way. I'm not saying Jalen
Green needs to be Dylan Brooks, and like Dylan Brooks
still thinks that he could be like a superstar on
certain possessions, But is there a way to rein him
in if they're like, I feel like the best way
to do that is, Oh, you're playing on a good
team with a lot of people above you in the
pecking order, and I just don't know, aside from Devin Booker,
I don't know that they have that contextual juice just yet.
Speaker 4: No, You're right, they don't.
Speaker 2: And in particular, you know, like we were lucky with
Booker last year and that he played seventy five games,
but he's always had little nagging injuries throughout his career.
There's a solid chance that Devin Booker plays, you know,
sixty five games this year or something, and in any
game in which Devin Booker misses anytime at all, Jalen Green,
for better or worse, he's the guy. So that will
look probably pretty similar to how it did in Houston,
which is to say, inefficient basketball maybe prevents your offense
from like totally bottoming out, but just won't.
Speaker 3: Be good turnovers too, you know, like there it'll be
turnover prone.
Speaker 1: Look, here's someone who maybe could save the offense in
Colin Gillespie. Oh, here's time to shine where he's just
like the third most important guard on this team now, correct?
Speaker 3: Yea? Who else would it be?
Speaker 1: You know, Dan, I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Or Jared Butler, Like those two guys are sort of
competing for the last spot on the team at this
point because Butler is signed to a non guaranteed deal
just like Goodwin Racon.
Speaker 2: Allen actually added another forty pounds of muscle. You haven't
seen the pictures yet, Dan, but.
Speaker 1: Wing. But like Kobe Brya, interests me too.
Speaker 3: Can we all meet it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, all, but he's on a two ways so he
can only play. Yeah, but he he is very very
very exciting to me. But yeah, I think Colin Gillespie, he's,
you know, by the numbers, he's technically the best pick
and roll runner on the team last year, but only
ran maybe fifty or sixty of them because he just
didn't play much. But you know, has earned a spot,
a guaranteed deal. He was on a two way last
year too, Gillespie, so he earned a guaranteed deal on
this team, and it's due to his hostile in his
play and his efficiency on and off the ball as
a scorer. Can't get to the rim, can't shoot a
lot of mid range shots, but he shoots a ton
of threes by the minute, and he can run a
pick and roll, and I think you know he has
some tenacity in rebounds and on defense. He's not going
to be great at those things, but he's going to
be better than you would anticipate him being.
Speaker 2: He's an excellent rebounder for like a six to one
point guard, Like, yeah, it's not the same as having
a guy like let's say you just have a six
to seven point guard out there before his size. Pound
for pound, Colin Gillespie is an incredible rebounder. It's kind
of mesmerizing to watch.
Speaker 3: And you know he's twenty seven, right, so he is
a player who hasn't played much in the NBA that
is in his prime years as an NBA player. But yeah,
he's going to play a really really important role. As
important is as it's going to be when and when
everyone's healthy, it's going to be doubly important. If guys
missed time and he's just going to be likely the
starting point guard on this team four games. But the
Suns do believe in him, Like they do truly believe
in him. We wanted them to add Chris Paul when
it was between the Clippers and Phoenix, and they, you know,
based on what they've said through their mouthpieces, the Suns
didn't want that. They seemed to choose to not have
that big of a voice in the locker room and
give those opportunities to call in Gillespie instead. It's a
risk because like he is small and not had a
ton of success, But what he's shown I'm excited about person.
Speaker 2: He's simply never had this level of on ball responsibility
in the NBA. We've seen a little bit of it
in like the G League. Like he goes down to
the G League sometimes and averages ten asis a game
and just runs their offense. The G League is not
the NBA. What I think is really encouraging about Coln
Gillespie is that he is for sure an NBA player
in all of the ancillary skills that he displayed right,
Like he could be a secondary playmaker. He can shoot
threes at a forty percent clip, he can rebound like hell,
he can hustle guard guys ninety four feet that's great.
All of that shows me that you are an NBA
PL coming off the bench for twenty minutes a game
and like running pick and rolls.
Speaker 3: Though, is is that's a different role.
Speaker 2: That's not something he's really been asked to do in
the NBA yet, And so he has suddenly saddled with
a lot more responsibility. And either he's going to be
the ty Jerome of this year to make another Cavs comparison,
or he's going to struggle because they're asking him to
do a lot more.
Speaker 4: So we'll see.
Speaker 1: The reason I was really in favor of Chris Paul
being signed and now I think it kind of falls
to cong Gillespie is I do think the world of
Devin Booker is a playmaker like in his role, but
cong Gillespie is probably best suited more so than anyone
else on this roster to get three of their four
primary bigs like the ball in the way that they
want to score. When you're looking at Common Malo watch,
or you're looking at Nick Richards, or you're looking at
Mark Williams, I just like, who is the best lob
Passer on this team, it's probably gonna be like I
really thought CP three. I don't know why he wanted
to play for this team personally, Like I know Phoenix
is a good market and he liked it there. There
just didn't seem like they were at a timeline to
where he would want to go there. But that's where
I really wanted them to get, like any type of
veteran point guard who could run the show. And I'm
insure to see if cong Gleespie can because they're big men,
and specifically Williams and Malawatch, who are the two most
important ones, like the Gadaro's up there, but like they
need someone to get them the ball in the right
spots to be most effective. Like I know Mark Williams
has like some dynamism to his game, but I don't
want to see, like I just don't trust it down low,
and I think the whole his range quote unquote is
very theoretical at this point. So it's a it's a
really big moment for Congoleespian. I think you could view it,
like you guys said, as like really this big belief
in him, But I do do we think that he's
gonna be able to help these bigs develop. Do we
think that they get to a point where it's like, oh,
are they gonna want him like in lineups with both
Devin Booker and Jalen Green, so that he can be
the one to delinear touches on offense.
Speaker 3: They're gonna have to They're gonna have to try, you know,
more than anything else, because, yeah, the bigs are intriguing
in Mark Williams and specifically Kaman Malo Watch, I think
those are the right two guys to focus on. I mean,
I'm excited about Osugar, we can talk about him too,
But they don't create their own shots. You know, they
just can't. They're not the type of players to do that.
First of all, come on, Mala Watch is eighteen and
Mark Williams only played one hundred and ten games or
so in the NBA. And what he does is jump
really high, catch the ball and dunk it. And you know,
he's sort of a DeAndre Jordan on offense up to
this point of his career. Although he can shoot free throws,
which is you know, intriguing at the very least, but
they need someone to be able to do that. Colin
Gillespie is going to be a guy who they're going
to lean on to do that as much as possible.
Devin Booker, for all he can do as a passer,
he's number one in the NBA. This is just that
to bring up a lot at creating three point shots
for players. He actually was number one in the NBA
last year at doing that. But you know he's not
the best at getting shots for guys at the rim
the way like you said, Chris Paul could and was
so capable of and really benefited DeAndre eight and early
in his career because of that. Book's not that guy
to do that. He's going to create a ton of
three point shots, but not going to get it to them.
So it's up to Gillespie, and I hope he up
for it.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on Mark Williams? Mike? How do
you feeling about his fit? Are you monitoring most closely
for him?
Speaker 2: You wanted to go to Mike on that one. I
see you don't want old boy over here his opinion.
Speaker 3: Well, gotta get it. So I think with Mark Williams,
I wish that the defensive data was better, but the
offensive data already puts him as probably the best offensive
center they've had since DeAndre Ayton, So that's helpful. The
analysis analysis with Mark Williams that's not overly exciting is
that you just cross your fingers that he can stay healthy,
and that's like the biggest thing with him because he's
played so little in in the NBA so far. But
I do think that the Sons were kind of criticized
for taking Mark Williams and then taking Kamon Malawatch, you know,
on the same you know, within minutes of each other.
To be honest, the trade was made and then the
draft pick was picked. But I watched summer league. Come on,
Malawatch is not ready to start, even on a bad team.
I don't think he's ready to start, and.
Speaker 2: They need someone to nonsensical A nonsensical argument for anyone
who thought about it for even more than five seconds.
We know that Mark Williams plays forty games a year,
and we know that Kamam mol Lunch is not ready.
So to have both of those guys on the same
team is totally fine. Dan, you didn't ask my opinion.
But when I see Mark Williams, I see prime Dwight Howard.
But eighty percent from the free throw line. Maybe Brook
Lopez ranged from deep.
Speaker 4: I have stock.
Speaker 3: We are ready for the Mark Williams renaissance.
Speaker 1: Just if you're buying stock, Sam, what is just how
do you feel about him defensively then? Because every time
I watch him, most of the good plays feel like
they happen on accident.
Speaker 2: I know you're one hundred percent right. So the real
concerns to have outside of health with Mark Williams our defense.
I actually had a conversation with Mike about this where
I was asking, like, who are you more concerned about defensively?
Between Jalen Green and Mark Williams. Both of these guys
have had their defensive issues, and I think in general
centers are so much more important to your defensive scheme.
So you'd be tempted to say Mark Williams. On the
other hand, Mark Williams, like, we just can't discount the
Charlotte Hornets of it all. The total lack of consistency,
the total lack of like you know, having less than
an average of twenty five players in their rotation per season,
that just makes it hard to develop right, any sort
of like chemistry with your teammates. Whereas a huge reason
why Jalen Green is so concerning defensively is because he
was otherwise like he was the anchor in a negative
way that was holding down a really good defensive team
and a really good defensive rotation where it was just
so obvious that Jalen Green was like the guy who
was struggling out of all those players and Mark Williams,
I don't know. It's just like hard to for me
to attribute responsibility towards Mark Williams versus LaMelo Ball or
Brandon Miller or Miles Bridges or any of those other
disasters who have played for the Charlotte Hornets over the
past few years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think with him, the lack of even when
he has had like that nice stretch to close this season,
I just haven't seen like Charles Lee is a good
defensive coach that Hornet's team punched above its weight a lot,
and him as a rim protector, he might have some
of the worst timing as just like a big contesting
shot store he will leave his feet like at the faintest,
like I don't and it could be a non shooter
who's like could be Ryan Dunn, like trying to take
a step back or something with like twenty seven twenty
one seconds left on the shock block. So I just
I don't trust him on defense, and I think for
what they gave up for him is fine. I'm with you.
I don't think Mala Watch is gonna be ready for
a huge role. When I was doing my Summer League
breakdown of him, it was I guess tools are there,
but he just still feels so raw. But I'm not
like a Mark the price they paid again, like I'm
not a Mark Williams believer. Offensively maybe sure, but as
you kind of said Sam in the discussion that you
guys did have on that podcast, I really do think
the center position is so critical to defense that he
has not shown nearly enough to be aside from being
accidentally huge on certain and long on and possessions, that
I would trust him as like an anchor of an
above average defense long term.
Speaker 2: Accidentally huge would be a decent slogan for the Suns
this year. In general, I think of just like, you know,
that's what we hang our hat on. It's actually large.
Speaker 3: That should have been a DeAndre and nickname actually, now
that I think about him in the past. But I
do think Jordano, you know, has experience with Mobiley and
Jared Allen and uh. And the one thing I will
say about Mark Williams defensively is that for Biggs, part
of what makes you good at playing defense in the
NBA is consistently playing, and he hasn't, Like you have
to find that timing and if you're if your time
in the NBA is so stilted with injuries, it's really
difficult to get that consistency to be able to be
better at defense. So I think there is a world
that he gets better. I understand the skepticism overall of
what his ceiling could be defensively. It's probably not very high.
And luckily the Sons drafted who they think could be
their future center. And maybe there's a world where I
watch develops a little quicker and becomes that. But I
do think if there is a world where he plays
sixty five games this year, which probably not, I mean,
there's just no evidence that he can. But if he can,
I think there's a chance that he becomes somewhat of
a better defender by the end of the season than
he was at the beginning, and that improvement finally actually
comes for him.
Speaker 1: Would you guys be shocked if he got an extension
or do we expect this to go to just restrict
it free agency one.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be shocked. It depends on how he plays
and how healthy he is. But I think there's a
world where you could put together a deal for him
that is so contingent on his ability to stay healthy
that the Sons have an easy out if it doesn't
work for him.
Speaker 4: And actually, do we know who Mark Williams agent?
Speaker 3: Is? A great question? Is he Josh Bartlestein's dad? Is
that what you're asking me?
Speaker 2: I would just think that he would so strongly value
any guaranteed money.
Speaker 4: Jeff Schwartz, It's okay, so not Yeah, not Bartlestein.
Speaker 3: All right, No, that's priority sports? Is that what that is?
I'm sorry, I care a lot about We care a
lot about agents on our podcast. I don't know Dan
if you do, but we have a lot of conversations
about them.
Speaker 1: I do not follow it as closely as you guys do.
I don't get into like the who represents who excels? Yeah, so, Sam,
how do you feel about Malawach and what type of
a role do you like? What type of runway is
he going? To have to develop on this Sun's team
this year.
Speaker 2: So his role in year one is gonna be gazelle
learning to dribble a basketball and walk and chew gum
at the same time. Like it's gonna be you know, funny.
There are gonna be some kaman malaowatch low lights this
year that I think if you just want to point
at those and be like, haha, big man struggle to
play basketball good, then like, sure, okay, fine. What was
so exciting about him in Summer League is just like,
here's an eighteen year old who wasn't asked to do
all that much in his role at Duke, but then
just has the will to immediately go out there and
try dribbling the basketball and try shooting threes and try
doing things that we know maybe statistically he's not going
to be good at immediately. But coming from this experience
of having drafted DeAndre Ayton number one overall and committing
five years to his development and he never could get
as far as like doing anything other than an elbow
mid range jumper. To then have a guy come in
and be so willing to learn and really just the
effusive praise that is being heaped on malowatch from other
guys who were part of that summerly g roster saying
that he was constantly the captain of the defense and
the loudest guy that they had on defense. It's like,
that's just exactly what you want to hear about your
eighteen year old rookie, and honestly is pretty surprising too
that he's already there. So I just don't think statistically
it's going to be there in year one. You're going
to have to read between the lines on him a
little bit at the beginning. But like if you watch
him dribbling the ball, if you watch him attempting threes,
if you watch him, you know, being vocal on defense,
the intangible stuff is there that you just have to
buy into. His combination of athleticism and work ethic and
trust the process.
Speaker 1: Are do you think the Suns have the stomach to
go through those growing pains this season or is there
a level of like immediate expectations here because they're just
they're on this weird timeline right now. I don't know.
I frankly, I don't know like what their aim is.
They're trying to develop and also still be relevant, because
what else is there to do, But yeah.
Speaker 3: They don't own their picks. Yeah yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1: What type of a leash do you think, Like, is
this gonna be maybe after the All Star break theme
of a better sense of where they are, so that's
when he could get more run.
Speaker 3: They drafted Malowach, who is eighteen. He will be nineteen
this coming season. He's played basketball since he was fourteen.
So I mean they're showing some willingness there, right, I
mean they have to be because how And then also
I will say they hired a coach who's famous for
his player development, Like, so I think that they are
showing some willingness and this is a credit to Devin
Booker's willingness to give it some time too. But that
how far and how long that patience will last remains
to be seen, and we'll see if that's something he
feels next year as well as this year. But they're
showing some willingness to have some patients for this season,
just based on the decisions they've made. But you know, Malawatch,
you know, I think Sam said it earlier on in
the podcast, like so much of how successful the Kevin
Durant trade is is viewed will be dependent on his
development and ultimately, like like the Sons have, I will
say they have Mark Williams, they have Nick Richards, they
have ohsu a guitar, they have common Malwatch, meaning they
have four guys who can play center on this team.
Malawatch is the gonna be the worst one on the
court when the season begins, but they still have to
play him. They just have to. They have to give
him the time to develop. They have to allow him
to make the mistakes that he's going to make early
on in the season, and they have to figure out
what they have with him by next season. And ultimately,
like if they get to a point at the end
of the season where they say, okay, we've developed these
young guys. We have Ryan Dunn, we have Malawatch, we
have Jalen Green, and maybe they decide to make a
trade with two or three of those guys and try
to find someone who can help accelerate the team and
be better next season next to Devin Booker. Maybe that's
something they do. I don't know if that's a good
decision or a bad depending on the trade, but they
do have to find out what they have this season
with the young guys they have on the team.
Speaker 1: Sam, where are you at with Osogadara?
Speaker 2: He's like a fun little project, you know, I think
a very smart player, a very capable player. It's obviously
fun to watch him hoist up floaters and be this
like secondary connector. And he's going to continue to be
like an important option, you know, anytime he shares the
florid Devin Booker, for instance, because we know Devin Booker
as being like in a more heliocentric system now where
he's going to be a single star. There's gonna be
a lot of blitzing Devin Booker this season. It's no
secret Jordan Nottt knows that he's talked about it, or
maybe Jordan Nott hasn't directly talked about it. Nigel Hayes Davis,
who we mentioned earlier and maybe we'll talk about again,
did an interview where he was talking about having a
conversation with Jord Not about how Devin Booker's gonna be
blitz all the time. One of the best short role
playmaking options. They have to sort of counteract that, oh
so a Gadaro. So it helps to have these really
smart skilled bigs. Can he play power forward? They certainly
tried it a lot in Summer League. Can he show
any sort of offensive juice whatsoever, to like, get to
the rim a little bit more and not just hit
you with the floater? Or you know, his shooting form
is so far off, but can he give you a
fifteen foot mid range elbow jumper even at some point?
Can he shoot better than sixty percent from the free
throw line? You know, these are still big questions with OsO.
And if the answer to those is no, he doesn't
really have a future as an NBA player. But if
he develops any of those skills, then he's a really
interesting development project for them, and I am sure that
they will find time to play him. Compared to Malowatch,
who we were just talking about, I don't really know
who plays more this year. You know, I would guess
that maybe Malowatch plays more than OsO, but truthfully, I
don't know. Depends a lot on Mark Williams's health, depends
a lot on on their stomach for playing.
Speaker 3: Oh so at Power Forward too, and Malowatch is three
because if you can shoot threes right away, which I
think they're gonna let him do, then maybe they can
play together.
Speaker 1: I want to see more of those. He opened Summer
League basically with the spinning lefty hook. I want to
see more of those, Like let's just give Malo Watch
like the ultimate license off.
Speaker 3: I agree Herefore why not?
Speaker 1: Uh so is there a dual big lineup in particular
that you would like to see them trywards also at
the four? And then who do you want at the fight?
Would it be Malawatch in that case or a believer
in Mark Williams hitting three pointers at like an eighty
percent clip or something?
Speaker 4: Right? I think he will. I mean, like, let's just
be honest.
Speaker 2: I know you're not huge on Mark Williams, but if
you're talking about, like, let's have a good net rating
right now and you play also at the four, then yeah,
you probably want him next to Mark Williams if you're
just interested in the future potential. Ohso in Malo Watch
together would be very interesting as well. I also wouldn't
discount the possibility Dan that Malawatch will play a bit
at the four with Mark Williams would not shock me
at all. I don't think again, not a coincidence that
they hired the guy who worked with Evan Mobley and
Jared Allen, and I just think that's totally on the
table for them too.
Speaker 3: Not only is it not a coincidence, they talked a
lot in the offseason about double big lineups, offensive rebounding.
They openly talked about it, whether it be Brian Gregory,
Jordan Not or even Matt Ishbia like they're talking about
that as what the league is leaning towards. And even
the Rockets, the team that Kd's on, they seem to
be a team that's going to be willing to start
Shan Gun and Adams neither are floor spaces, and maybe
there is a world where there is some sort of
workable NBA offense with non floor spacing bigs two of
them on the floor in the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've thought a lot about that with the Rockets,
as to whether they're going to try and start like
a little bit of that where it's like mash basketball
is back. You need one of them to be like
a good playmaker, but like kind of the days of
you need Evan Mobiley needs to shoot threes in Cleveland,
Like I wonder if that's no longer like.
Speaker 3: The bar, some sort of dribbling matters too. That's those
su a guitar thing that Sam mentioned too, right, it's
not just shooting, but some sort of dribbling and playmaking
along with that could could really really go a long
ways for him.
Speaker 1: Mike, I thought Ryan Don interesting last year. The three
point efficiency obviously didn't hold. The volume I think was
more than fine. I know everyone's going to point to
the three point efficiency and say this needs to go up.
What other like developmental aspects Aside from that, though, should
we be monitoring as he has ince a year two.
Speaker 3: The defense, it's it's they're actually gonna put him, I
think in a really tough position to start this season
in that he's going to essentially be the starting power forward.
I mean, I guess you could say it's Dylan Brooks,
but I think that Ryan Dunn is a little taller
and that puts him in the position to guard bigger
guys occasionally, and I think I don't think that's necessarily
a skill set. But the reason he was drafted, the
reason he was a first round pick in fact, is
his projected defense, and we have to see some of
that become a reality. There were times where he played
good defense last year. There was times where you fouling
too much, and there was times where he's a little
week defensively last year, but for him to be successful,
there is an obvious path where if he shoots thirty
five percent from three and does that consistently, then yes,
he can be an NBA player. But he really has
to show what that projected defense is for him in
the NBA soon for him to have a long career
in the NBA, because I don't think he can get
away with playing defense like he did last year. But
he was a rookie, right, so we just have to
see that really come together for him. And I think
he seems to be a really hard worker and someone
who thinks about the game a lot. Spent every day
in the gym this offseason at the Sun's practice facility,
in fact, so I'm pretty excited to see what he
can do next year.
Speaker 1: Do you think that playing like Dylan Brooks is a
pretty I would ca him a malleable defender where he's
not super big, but he can guard a bunch of
different spots, Like do you think that that gives them
the ability to make life easier on Ryan Done, to
maybe put him in better even though he's the starting forward,
to maybe tailor his assignments accordingly.
Speaker 3: It's it's a fat athing because we're talking about a
starting lineup that has Devin Booker and Jalen Green in
it as well, so like in some ways you have
to hide both of those guys. So yeah, I mean,
if you're playing a team like say the Lakers, they
have Lebron James and they have Luka Doncics, you have
two guys who can do that. But then who guards
Austin Reeves? You know, it can be one of those
situations where one of the guys in Devin Booker and
Jalen Green has to guard a guy no, no matter what.
But I think Ryan Done, I think his best abilities
last year we're guarding smaller ball handlers, you know, shooting
guards and point guards. And if they can find a
way to do that for him regularly and just sort
of say, Dylan Brooks, you're guarding Shangoon tonight. You know,
like if they do start Steven Adams and Shangun, you
gotta put Dylan Brooks on Shangun. I don't think you
can put Ryan do on on him. He's just not
strong enough. He doesn't have the base necessary to do that.
And really Dylan Brooks doesn't either. But you're sort of
dealing with what your best options are with what you
have at that point. So yeah, they're gonna have to
Dylan Brooks I think is going to have a positive
impact on Ryan Dunn period. Like just in general, I
think putting a little more of the Dylan Brooks mindset
into Ryan Dunn that alone will have a positive impact
on him, but also having another guy who can guard
bigger will be helpful.
Speaker 1: Yes, Sam, what are your early impressions of Kobe Breya
on do you think that would you predict that they
will convert him to a regular contract by the end
of the season.
Speaker 4: Absolute baller.
Speaker 2: It helps, by the way that every single young guy
we've talked about, I mean, say what you will for
all of their prospective talent that remains to be seen,
but all of these guys are just smart. They haven't
drafted any dummies recently, and that's been very intentional. We
talked about Ryan Dunn Oso's ability to process the game,
and then this year Malo Watch's work ethic, we're sheer
Fleming's work ethic, and now Kobe Brea who you're talking
about his work ethic and I've watched some interviews with
him where he just has a really sharp way of
processing the game as well, and lots of different guys
whose tape he watches in order to help him as like,
you know, an average sized wing at the next level
that that he understands that's what he is. I would
love for Kobe to get an ability to really play
a little bit and for his shooting to pop and
ultimately for them to convert him from a two way.
There is kind of this glut of wings standing in
his way right and and again it goes back to that,
you know, that topic of what is the timeline this year?
And you know, do they want to win games? Do
they feel that playing a lot of Grace and Allen
and Royce O'Neil, who are both still on the team
and both competent, capable NBA wings, is that going to
help them win more? Or is there going to be
a need for someone like Kobe Bray at some point
who is a better movement shooter even than Grace and Allen.
You know, like Grayson Allen's an awesome, awesome shooter. Kobe
Brea is like incredible. His his potential for shooting at
the next level is truly something you don't see very often.
Speaker 4: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's it just comes back to that question of how
much can they stomach kind of giving these guys a runway.
Speaker 1: Are there any other players you want to talk about
that we haven't discussed before we move on? And he's
scorching hot? Grayson Allen or Royce O'Neill or you guys
mentioned Nigel Hayes Davis.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you want to take a mic?
Speaker 3: Or should I?
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, he's the Jimmy Butler of the EuroLeague
if you watch his tape a little bit, but with
a three point shot. Uh So, basically I don't know
what is that Larry Bird?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: So he said he's said.
Speaker 1: Over Williams is Dwight Howard Davis is Larry Bird. You're
building a hell of a team.
Speaker 3: He's euro League Larry Bird. Now, the thing about Nagel
Hayes Davis is he's a six to seven shooter and
shot creator who doesn't really play picking pick and rolls,
at least based on the highlights. Like he does a
lot of post ups and he does a lot of
like off ball stuff. And you're talking about Kobe Brea.
I think it's I think it's important to mention too,
that that that Grayson Allen is like the most obvious
trade candidate on his team, on this team, based on
his contract, and if there's a world where the Suns
do like a two for one trade where they put
a couple of guys together to trade for someone mid season,
Grayson Allen probably is that guy. And now they have
maybe Nigel Hayes Davis and Kobe Braa to step in
and do some of the stuff offensively, at least that
Grayson Allen did. But Nigel Hayes Davis, I think is
was the best player in euro League last year as
far as scoring. He has the highest scoring game in
EuroLeague history. I think fifty one points is what he
ended with in that game that he played a little
bit of cherry picking involved, but hey, I think he's
allowed if you're trying to chase that record. But shorter game.
He's thirty, right, He's thirty years old, and I think
that's important to mention with this team because it's a
really young team and he's a guy who's played professional
basketball for ten years. And I think there's a world where,
especially when guys are not in and out of the lineup,
guys are not playing. I think there's a world where
Nigel Hayes Davis actually plays a bigger role than we
anticipated for this team going forward. If he can do
movement shooting at six seven, that's valuable. Like there's just
not a ton of guys who can do a lot
of movement shooting, and he did it in euro League.
Whether or not that translates to the NBA remains to
be seen. He's one of those guys where this is
a chance he doesn't play at all, and this is
the chance he has a much bigger role than we anticipated.
And I don't think it's I think it's too early
to predict which one it's going to be for him. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: I mean he could be I remember when the Sun's
brought in sunny weams, you know, like ten years ago. Yeah,
from playing overseas, and it could be Mike James or
Mike James. It could be another one of those situations,
or this could be the Yaba Sele of this year
where he starts playing pretty immediately and makes an impact
and you have people saying, oh, it's actually, you know,
a really good player, So we'll see. He's funny, he's
charismatic too, which helps. I'm just a rooting for him.
Speaker 1: Are you guys ready to enter the cookie Cutter slash
Lightning round portion?
Speaker 3: Let's do it, Let's do it. I know we're always
going long in this podcast, so I apologize already.
Speaker 1: Look, you guys are fine, Okay, cool, Let's begin here.
So I'll start with you, Mike. Looking at this roster
as of right now, without having seen it together on
the court in full, what is its single biggest need
to you?
Speaker 3: I think, Oh, that's interesting. I think this single biggest
need for this team is another star player next to
Devin Booker, like honestly talent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, with a three point shot in Mark Williams. I
don't understand why you need another co star.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and European but actually American Larry Bird. Let's not
forget Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I think, like to me, it's just very clear
that there's so much on Devin Bookers shoulders, which I
think will be kind of fun to watch at times.
But if you want to be a great team, like
a truly great team, they need, you know, what they
had in Chris Paul and then at times what they
had and Kevin Durant who obviously was great, but that
team was never put together in a way that benefited
either of them. So, you know, I don't know, maybe
that is Jalen Green, or maybe it's Malawatch at some
point in the future, or maybe it's whoever they trade
Jalen Green and Malowatch for, you know, at the trade
deadliner in the offseason or something. It's difficult to really
say what that is going to be. But to me,
that is the biggest need.
Speaker 1: Sam, do you have a second biggest need for them.
Speaker 4: Other than talent? Uh?
Speaker 3: Draft picks?
Speaker 4: Yeah, draft picks.
Speaker 1: You know, you just say that Grayson Allen you think
is the most likely to be traded. You don't think
that Royce O'Neill, like his salary is more a little
like smaller someone.
Speaker 3: It is smaller, Yeah, but I think it's smaller in
a way.
Speaker 1: That the Sun's like you, I think it's Royce O'Neill
because then is probably one of the most underappreciated players
of like the last five or seven years.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's fair to say. He just fits
on every teams.
Speaker 4: Also, but you know, wait, what did you say?
Speaker 2: I think that's Deandrayton, one of the most underappreciated players
the last time. Bradley Beal is probably the first guy.
Speaker 1: I think he's probably underappreciated by every other team since
he's submarine the Suns from within.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, Sam, So we'll start with you here. Is there
something about this team, whether it's a strength, another weakness,
a storyline development, whatever that's flying under the radar that
you think deserves bigger spotlight.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean it's because they're so young, but
you know, just underscoring the fact again that they are long.
They you know, very intentionally have been scouting as many
players as possible with these seven foot plus wingspans, and
I don't think people realize that, Like, yeah, I think
at times they're going to struggle to score, but also
they're probably going to grab a lot of offensive rebounds
and they're probably going to get a lot of deflections
in a way that they just weren't able to impact
the game in the past. And I don't know, like,
if you want an optimistic case on the Suns and
you're looking for ways to maybe potentially hit their over
on their over under, that could be it. That's just
they're going to tap into a pure effort that they
simply did not display in the past couple of years.
So yeah, I think they're going to be much more
of a league pass team this year. Even if they
don't win as many games, they're just gonna be more
fun to watch.
Speaker 3: Yo.
Speaker 1: I had this in the outline and skipped over it,
but in part because they're so huge, I find myself
very intrigued by what they could be defensively, which feels
very weird to say about a team that's built or
headlined by Devin Booker and Jalen Green, like first and foremost,
like what do you make of like this? Could this
be a team that, like, could you see their defense
out performing their offense? Is that the expectation within absolutely
I don't know.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's almost my baseline expectation. I don't well, I
don't know.
Speaker 4: I guess I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was that duh. I thought I
was proposing something novel.
Speaker 4: No no, no, no no no.
Speaker 2: I'm not here to criticize your don't not say you're criticized.
Speaker 1: That's why I have this podcast, because I'm not as
in touch with like what the fan base is thinking,
what the internal expectations are.
Speaker 2: Well, so we do our over under. We make our
own over unders for the team every year and then
release it as an episode. And we haven't done that yet.
Mike always sets those But Mike, would you say, I'll
turn it to you. Yeah, what's your is your expectation
that the offense or the defense is better this year?
Speaker 4: You think it's offense.
Speaker 3: I do, Yeah, I think it's so I I but
I do think that to your point, Dan, the defense
is like, if you're looking at what culture the Suns
are trying to reset the culture right now, and if
you look at the culture that they're trying to set
for this team. The thing that Mattieshpia has talked about
since since the end of the season was trying to
find a team where guys are working hard every single
night and the fan base will leave the games. This
is how he describes it, even if they don't win, thinking, well,
at least they tried, you know, because I think that
the team, Yeah, yeah, that's the that's history.
Speaker 2: Views his roster as like, give me the guys who
theoretically could sell the most mortgages possible. Give me, give
me just a team full of star entrepreneurs.
Speaker 3: The team cleaves is actually uh finding ways to motivate
both the actual mortgage salesman and now the NBA team.
But you know, I I I do think that it
just roster wise. I think the combination of Jalen Green
and Devin Booker and and Mark Williams in the starting
lineup is where it's difficult for me to say that
they can put a great defense together right away because
those are just three defenders that you can't count on
every single game. But if you look at the guys
that come in on the bench off outside of them,
if you look at Dylan Brooks and Jailing and Ryan Dunn,
there is like personnel that you can start sliding in
and finding ways to put an interesting defense out onto
the floor at times, especially if they are willing to
sacrifice some of the offense for it. But I do
think that it will be a little more difficult to
do that, and I think honestly, they still have a
bunch of guys who can shoot threes, you know, Dylan Brooks,
Jalen Green, Royce O'Neill, Grayson Allen, and then they have
Devin Booker. And if you put those guys around Devin Booker,
I think you can just find a way to a
relatively good offense. Just based on that alone, so I
think it's just gonna be an easier path to find
a good offense than a good defense.
Speaker 1: Mike, is there anything else that you think is flying
under the radar about this team?
Speaker 3: If they're on a path to win twenty five games
this season, how cheap can the hot Dogs get? Can
they go to one dollar? Can they go to fifty cents?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: What is matt Isshbia willing to do to get fans
in the games? Will he pay people to watch the team?
The games are free right now, or is he going
to offer some money to watch the games on TV?
Tip players? That's what I'm interested to see.
Speaker 2: Mike hates baseball, but I'm sure he's aware of the
nine to nine to nine challenge at baseball games. Nine
hot Dogs, nine Beers, nine innings.
Speaker 3: I've actually never never heard of that.
Speaker 2: Now, yes, okay, well after that either Now I'm disappointed
in both of you guys right now, but I would
let me I would like to see a Sun's version
because it's boring if you do it with four quarters. Yeah,
I think you could tie it to the number of
Jalen Green three point attempts. I'd like to see if
we can get up past ten, eleven, twelve. Jalen Green
shoots fourteen threes in a game. I'm slamming fourteen hot dogs.
I'm drinking fourteen beers. You know, I think the sky's
the limit.
Speaker 1: So were you allowed to start from the first three?
Or is this cumulative where you don't know until the
final buzzer sounds and you find out that he's gonna
slam him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just gonna slam them all at once. No,
I think you every time he takes hoists another three,
you got.
Speaker 3: It between the quarters, you have to go buy the
hot dogs. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you two are building a ten man rotation
for this team. Who are the starters? And then who
are the five most used reserves?
Speaker 3: I think we could do this together, Sam, because the
starters we know, right, it's Devin Booker, Jalen Green, Ryan
dun Dylan Brooks, Mark Williams, Mark Williams yep. And then
the two guys I think that are. I think there
are three guys that are absolutely guaranteed to get minutes
off the bench, and Colin Gilesbie Royce O'Neil, Grayson Allen like,
that's that's just a guaranteed. So the next two guys
are the next two guys that is the most interesting,
and I think malawatch right, we're just gonna start with
him m hm, and then who's the last guy?
Speaker 1: That is the question would you two be like, even
if they're healthy, wouldn't you be a little discouraged if
the number ten overall pick was not like a member
of what ends up being their top ten rotation, Like, yeah,
they might have immediate expectations, but you have real equity
invested in this guy.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess there's a chance they start the
season without him playing much and they're trying to get
him a little ready, but like midway through the season,
this guy should be getting minutes every game he's healthy
for just period, I think, so not doing that, we're
gonna hammer him for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, based on the last available options, we've we've listed
nine guys, right, what we're obviously missing is backup power forward.
You know, you could say positions don't matter anymore, but
that's more or less what we're looking for. Your options
are OsO A Guitarro, who's probably the best I don't know,
maybe the best remaining player, but a weird fit at
power forward, and we don't know how frequently they're they're
willing to do it. You could do Rasher Fleming, who
they just drafted in the second round, who just has
the perfect body to play that position, but obviously no
NBA experience. You could do Nigel Hayes Davis, who also
doesn't really have the NBA experience but has the most
veteran basketball playing experience, is maybe the smartest player of
those three. I could see them doing anything, guys. Honestly,
I'm not sure who they start with their Yeah, I
think I think that maybe Nigel. I think that it's
probably going to be sold.
Speaker 1: On him just talking up in this podcast, So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were. I wouldn't remember start. Yeah, there was
a year he might, honestly, if if Ryan Dunn can't
figure it out right early in the season, he might, honestly.
But there was a podcast a few years ago where
we really sold you on to Moni Kamara and we
were right about that.
Speaker 1: You were. I actually credit you guys with that like
multiple times a year at this point.
Speaker 3: Because he had heard of him, and we're like, this
guy's gonna be good and then the Suns traded him
like two weeks later.
Speaker 2: So yeah, what's because we went into summer League with
with really the most pathetic summer league roster you've ever
seen of too, Moni Kamara and ish Wayne Wright being
the guys who like were featured, and so we.
Speaker 4: Were just clinging on to hope. We were like this too,
Monti Kamara. Guy could be something.
Speaker 3: But you know he looked awesome right away. Yeah he was.
He was.
Speaker 1: He's I I mean, you guys like really trumped up
his defense. Uh loaded word there. You really built up
his defense. But the offensive development from him has just
been I did not see it coming. Like he shot
like a real volume of threes last year and hit
them at a high clip, and there's some like straight
line drive stuff to what he does. And I don't
think I ever thought he was gonna be a five
position defender base fantastic.
Speaker 3: And I think there's still some screening stuff that you
can do with him that they haven't fully leaned into,
but they're going to find a way to do it.
Speaker 1: You're right, they probably need like actual spacing to like
even try to make that work. And they've decided to
punt on that even further for some reason. But yeah,
neither here nor there. My hot take is is that
the Suns probably shouldn't have traded him now. In hindsight, yes,
I feel like they should have tried to keep him.
Speaker 3: That is the two Mani Kamara trade. Now. It is
because he's the best player from that trade, you know,
out of DeAndre and Grayson Allen use of Nurkic, you know,
he's the guy in this Zier little if you remember,
was in that trade as well. But yeah, that is
he's the best player now.
Speaker 1: So this is another question for the two of you,
and I know it's to some extent matchup dependent, but
I'm going to force you to pick anyway, what is
the most used or go to closing lineup for this team.
Speaker 3: It's a really good question. It might be the starting lineup,
right probably.
Speaker 2: Just it's probably just the starting lineup unless one of
these young guys is like far more advanced than works back.
Speaker 1: So is there like someone in particular youth circle is like, oh,
I could see them wedging their way into the closing Vive.
Speaker 3: Royce O'Neil, I think.
Speaker 1: That would have been my pick? Is overdone or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or even potentially over Jalen Green. I hate to
say it, but like I think there's a world where
where Devin Booker, Royce O'Neill, Ryan Dunn, Dylan Brooks and
then a center could potentially play. It's tough to have
that little ball handling, but if there's a team that
they need the defense over the offense, then it could
be Royce.
Speaker 1: What about Colin Gillespie over Jalen Green.
Speaker 3: Amy, I think there's a world where we're looking at
the net rating lineups that you know halfway through the season,
and they're gonna break my heart.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could totally see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that I could see it. Like politically,
I would just be shocked if we see Colin Gillespie
closing games over I don't even mean to jump a
dump excuse me on Jayalen Green, but just you're paying
him so much money and if you want him to
have any sort of trade value or force jail and
Green to quote unquote happen, I would just be like,
if he's not a regular member of the lineup that's
closing games that you're trying to win, we have problems.
If I'm Phoenix.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, that could still happen, though, Like I'm
not gonna leave it off the table. I just think
the problem with the Suns are for the Sons is
that not only do they need him to be good
to potentially be good this year, I think they, you know,
no matter what they say, I think they still view
him as a potential trade candidate, so they need him
to play in order to sort of boost that stock
as well.
Speaker 1: We'll start with you, Sam, is there a quirky or
weird old lineup you want to see Jordan not try
this year?
Speaker 2: It's kind of similar to what we were just talking about.
I think, well, Mala watch at the four, right, but
then pair that with let's say Devin Booker and Gillespie
in the backcourt. I think gives you like enough of
a baseline of you know, gribbling, penetrative ability, shooting ability. Right,
So let's say Booker and Gillespie. Small ford of choice
could be Dylan Brooks, could be Royce O'Neil, could be
Ryan Dunn. Just someone who's like, has the positional size,
has some shooting, and then malowatch and Williams and just
see what happens.
Speaker 1: I want to see that front court, and I'd not
even consider those two playing together until you mentioned something earlier.
I really want to see Malawa.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it'll look any good at all,
but you know, I know both Malawatch and Mark Williams
shot eighty percent from the free throw line in their
respective places last year, and so can either of them
actually shoot NBA threes? No idea, but you have more
reason to believe that they can than say, oh so
or you know these other guys.
Speaker 1: Mike, do you have a weird O line?
Speaker 3: I do? I do. I think I would go with
Devin Booker at the point, guard, Royce O'Neil, Dylan Brooks,
ohso a Gudaro, and then a center I like Mark
will I'll say Mark Williams because I think it could
be Malowatch as well. But I think there's a world
where if you create a lineup where OsO a Guadaro
is actually the second all handler, like that's his goal,
that's his role. He has to do it, and you
can find ways to even potentially run some inverted pick
and rolls with other guys sending setting screens for him.
I actually really like the prospect of that. I think
Osaa Gadara was awesome in Summer League, and if there's
some of that that translates to the NBA, I'd be
really excited. But sort of basically, putting Devin Booker on
the floor with a bunch of guys who could potentially
play defense might be the best version of what the
Suns could be next year as well. In those lineups,
it wouldn't shock me if we're looking halfway through the
year and that's the best lineups the Suns have.
Speaker 1: This was not my choice coming in, but because you
both sold me on Nigel Hayes Davis, I want to
see Devin Booker at point, We'll go Dylan Brooks, Royce O'Neill,
Nigel Hayes Davis, and Osoi Goodaro. That's the lineup I love.
Speaker 3: That's fun. Yeah, that's a bunch of smart basketball players,
a lot of ball skills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So before we get before I force you guys
to make some predictions, is there anything anyone we haven't
talked about that you think warren't some discussion.
Speaker 2: I think we've talked about literally every player on the
roster except maybe Jimbo Richards. Nick Richards, who we started telling.
Speaker 1: He's trying to sell me use tires. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 2: We are calling him Jimbo Richards because he's got a
little elbow jumper that he was breaking out towards the
back half of the season. I don't really have anything
interesting to say about Nick Richards.
Speaker 3: He's he's a player. They have to keep him because
Mark Williams is so, you know, injured injured.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like he can be annoyed if he's playing over
Malawatch though, that'll be something absolutely no emotional ties to
the Suns.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that would be insane.
Speaker 3: Nowise, I think we covered everyone.
Speaker 1: So let's start here. Where do you how many games
do you think this team can win? And where do
you see them landing in the larger context of the
Western Conference.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I speak for all Suns fans when
I say that anything less than fifty five games one
is probably going to be a disappointment. Based on where
where we're setting our expectations.
Speaker 3: Is that Sam has one goal more games than the Rockets,
I think is what Sam wants them to.
Speaker 4: That's not true, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Happened in Houston for that to even be a reality.
I guess Kevin Durant would really have to accelerate, like.
Speaker 2: The Kevin Durant just does his things off a few
tweets and then watch the turmoil begin.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're going to find out that Dylan Brooks was
the most important player on that team. That's what's gonna happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh. My serious answer to your question, Dan is, well,
how did you phrase it?
Speaker 4: A number of wins?
Speaker 3: Is that what you just if you want to get.
Speaker 1: Like you could go floor ceiling, just get like, what
would be the number of wins that you think this
team could realistically?
Speaker 2: So I the most recent over under I saw, I
think was FanDuel at thirty one and a half, and
I totally understand all of the various reasons to be
pessimistic about this team. Also, the Western Conference is just
a beast, you know, thirty one wins in the West
might be the equivalent of say thirty eight in the
East or something. But all that being said, I think
thirty one and a half is a little bit low.
I think this team really can. My expectation is like
thirty five. Maybe I had to just throw a number
out there. They could be better, I think.
Speaker 3: I agreed. I think I agree, and that's like basically
what they did last year. It's not much better or worse.
But I think that with them, if they're in in
sort of the mode of competing for a playin spot,
that's sort of what I would expect. But the floor,
if we're talking floor ceiling, the floor is really low.
And you know, if Devin Booker doesn't play a lot
this year, they could be really really bad. A lot
is going to write on how many games he plays.
Speaker 1: I I always feel this is an interesting like in
a team, in a Sun's case where they feel so fringe,
how many teams would you be prepared to guarantee, like
specific teams that they're better than this year?
Speaker 3: Because we just art with Utah.
Speaker 1: New Orleans might be the only two that I'm prepared
to guarantee that's the Suns will be better than them specific.
Speaker 3: Oh oh sorry, sorry, Okay, Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Look, I'm a big avid subscriber to Michael Porter Junior's podcast,
and I think they're going somewhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the West. I think it's just the Jazz
and then yeah, maybe the Pelicans that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then and then there's teams that you could
question you know how close they could be to the
Suns at that point. The guy all the teams that
are competing for the playing spot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is there a team I didn't put this on
the outline, but like a good team in the West
that you think they actually match up particularly well against
based on how they're built right now?
Speaker 3: Hmm, not particularly They're so Sam, they're mentally solved.
Speaker 4: Ryan Dunn's going to be in his head.
Speaker 2: Uh Now A serious answer to that question.
Speaker 3: Not, I haven't thought about this. Actually. I think it's
the starting lineup being relatively small compared to what they
can put on the floor makes it a little tougher
for me to find a good good matchup for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, Mike and Sam, can I get one additional son's
prediction from you for this coming season? Can you could
take it wherever you want and I will let Mike start.
Speaker 3: Oh, one additional prediction for the Sons, I will say,
I don't think they're gonna have any stories about the
team being unhappy with the coach this year for the
first time in four years. So that's that's my prediction.
I think there's a chance that this coach survives and
it's not just another guy who's fired by the end
of the season. I mix. I think there's a chance
that that people are talking about Jordan not in a
really positive way at some point of this season. So
that's gonna be my predictions. Jordan not related.
Speaker 4: So I'll go ahead and yeah, I mean, they're very
much just a team in flux. We all know that.
Speaker 2: So I'll go ahead and say that, you know, they've
made a lot of moves at this point, but they're
not done. I think there's going to be some movement
here at the deadline, probably in a boring way, though
not in like an exciting for you know, this would
suck for me, but for other people they hear that
and say, oh, Devin Booker's on the trade block. Like,
Devin Booker's not on the trade block. But there might
be a Royce O'Neil deal, there might be a Grayson
Allen deal. There might be something interesting, mildly interesting that
happens in February.
Speaker 1: For sure, they are, as we record this, like two
hundred and seventy three thousand dollars into the tax and
they are absolutely not staying there. So I would echo
that there's going to be some type of trade even
if it's super super tiny.
Speaker 3: It's as simple as just Butler or Jordan Goodwin being
waived too. So one of those two guys is probably
not going to be on the roster at some point
this season.
Speaker 1: I thought they only had fourteen players, or maybe I'm miscounted.
Speaker 3: They I think they're going to go into the season
with fourteen players. That's my anticipation because that's the easiest
way unless they make a move, just as you're saying,
dam But the easiest way for them to get under
the text, I believe is if they just don't roster
all fifteen, which they did last year.
Speaker 1: They rostered what they rostered last year.
Speaker 3: Fourteen players.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, guys, As always, this was fantastic. Thank you
for giving me so much of your time. Are you
able to tell our audience where they can find you
in all the great work that you do? And I
will begin with Sam here please.
Speaker 2: It says on screen at Scooper Hoops as Dan said,
that's me on Twitter. You did not see us on
video because we are part of the witness Protection program
because of all of the Kevin Durant stands. So if
you work in the Houston media, good luck they're coming
for you next and otherwise, what other good work.
Speaker 3: I don't think we do anything.
Speaker 4: We just talk about the Suns multiple times a week.
Speaker 3: Come check it out. Yeah, it's called the Timeline of
Phoenix Sun's podcast. You can find it in all the
places that podcasts are heard, or follow on Twitter at
Protective Pip is mine one of my favorite podcasts.
Speaker 1: Listen to the links to what will be in the
podcast YouTube description as well as to their Patreon, So
go check that out. Support to you guys to do
great work once more. Thank you guys so much, and
as you know by now, I will be featuring you
again down the line.
Speaker 3: Thanks An