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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. The twentieth anniversary
Speaker 4: of the death of John Benet Ramsay is in December
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen. Stephen Singulars ninety nine book about the murder
Speaker 4: of John Benay explored the realm of child exploitation and
Speaker 4: its connection to the crime. In August twenty sixteen, Singular
Speaker 4: released an updated edition of Presumed Guilty. Investigation of the
Speaker 4: John Beiney Ramsey Case, The Media and the Culture of
Speaker 4: Pornography on Amazon Kindle. It examines why the case still
Speaker 4: has him been solved and the most important developments over
Speaker 4: the past seventeen years. Stephen will be interviewed by Sharp
Speaker 4: Entertainment for a lifetime documentary on the murder to be
Speaker 4: aired on Saturday evening, November five, twenty sixteen. This program
Speaker 4: will immediately follow a lifetime docudrama on the case. The
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine examination of the John Benet Ramsey case
Speaker 4: was the only book to suggest something other than the
Speaker 4: two conventional scenarios that one of the Ramseys killed the
Speaker 4: child or an intruder did it. Presumed Guilty broaden the
Speaker 4: discussion to include the involvement of child pornography child exploitation
Speaker 4: surround the murder. The case remains a world class conundrum.
Speaker 4: The murder of John Benet is the only example in
Speaker 4: the annals of American homicide where a body and a
Speaker 4: ransom note were found in the same location. In the
Speaker 4: world of true crime, there is absolute truth and there
Speaker 4: is effective truth.
Speaker 6: Since nineteen ninety nine, enough has happened to give us
Speaker 6: at a much fuller sense of the effective truth of
Speaker 6: John Benay's death and a much clearer idea why the
Speaker 6: case hasn't been solved. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 6: evening is Presumed Guilty, An investigation of the John Benet
Speaker 6: Ramsey Case, the media, and the culture of pornography, with
Speaker 6: my special guests, journalist and author Stephen Singular, Welcome back
Speaker 6: to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 6: to this interview. Stephen Singular, thank you very much for
Speaker 6: having me. Dan. Thank you. This is of course on
Speaker 6: everyone's mind. It captivated the world back in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 6: and it seems to have done it again on the
Speaker 6: twentieth anniversary, with every television station, network, news magazine, everybody
Speaker 6: included in this. But you were there back at that time,
Speaker 6: and you brought us this book, Presumed Guilty, and now
Speaker 6: the new edition. I just spoke to you briefly before
Speaker 6: the program, and I alluded to it in the introduction.
Speaker 6: Tell us just a little bit again. You had mentioned
Speaker 6: that it wasn't so good for you, But tell us
Speaker 6: just a little bit before we get right into Presume Guilty.
Speaker 6: About that interview that I had mentioned in the introduction.
Speaker 5: Well, Lifetime did a docu drama, as you say, and
Speaker 5: then it was followed by a two hour actual documentary
Speaker 5: on the case. And there were a few scientific things
Speaker 5: in that show that I thought were very good that
Speaker 5: we might touch upon later, But the real thrust of
Speaker 5: it was that it was about Patsy Ramsey and was
Speaker 5: she a killer or a victim? And my whole involvement
Speaker 5: in this case has been to try and widen it
Speaker 5: beyond the Ramsey family and beyond the intruder theory. So
Speaker 5: from my point of view, there was very little new
Speaker 5: information in that realm that came out of it, and
Speaker 5: it didn't. I think there's a bigger story here that
Speaker 5: hasn't been talked about very much. Almost all of these shows,
Speaker 5: and we've seen, you know, one rite after the other
Speaker 5: since early September, has basically focused on this paradigm that
Speaker 5: everyone knows either Ramseys did it or an intruder came
Speaker 5: in the house and did it. And I suggested in
Speaker 5: the book in nineteen ninety nine that there's a whole
Speaker 5: lot of space in between those two things, that it
Speaker 5: doesn't have to be an either or a situation. And
Speaker 5: I took quite a bit of heat for that when
Speaker 5: I did it, and in trying to talk about the
Speaker 5: child pornography sort of the underbelly of the child beauty
Speaker 5: paget circuit and all of that. The book came out
Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety nine. Just so people know, I was
Speaker 5: on an MSNBC show not long after it came out
Speaker 5: in the summer of ninety nine and I was at
Speaker 5: a studio in Denver. There was somebody else in Denver
Speaker 5: who was at another studio who was a columnist for
Speaker 5: the Denver Post, and he picked up the book and
Speaker 5: dropped it into a trash can on live national television.
Speaker 5: That I'm not saying that to illicit sympathy. That didn't
Speaker 5: make any difference to me, But it shows you how
Speaker 5: difficult back then and to some extent today it has
Speaker 5: been for people even to consider an alternative idea. And
Speaker 5: this is an unsolved case, you know, it's not like
Speaker 5: we have the answers in front of us. So that's
Speaker 5: just an indication of the difficulty is sort of trying
Speaker 5: to break through the facade of this case and get
Speaker 5: underneath the surface.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about early in the book, since nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety seven, yourself and your wife Joyce have been just
Speaker 6: one piece of a civilian murder investigation that's reached across
Speaker 6: America and countless people involved. Why has there been this
Speaker 6: incredible civilian murder investigation?
Speaker 5: Well, I think, of course, the rise of the Internet
Speaker 5: fed that, where you could have everyone linked through that
Speaker 5: and much of the evidence, or at least pieces of
Speaker 5: the evidence could come out into the public realm, and
Speaker 5: starting right in nineteen ninety seven, people were creating websites
Speaker 5: around this, and as the case continued not to be solved,
Speaker 5: you know, there was more and more impetus to get
Speaker 5: more information out there, maybe help law enforcement, or try
Speaker 5: to do something to penetrate this case. I mean, after all,
Speaker 5: to repeat myself, it's twenty years later, and in many
Speaker 5: ways the case, the case itself has never advanced one inch.
Speaker 5: Now there are developments around it that have advanced or
Speaker 5: should have advanced it, but it's just built for people
Speaker 5: to explore and to get involved in and to offer
Speaker 5: up their theories and to do all those things. We've
Speaker 5: been contacted by people from Oregon to Florida, to New
Speaker 5: York to Texas, I mean, and it's there's just and
Speaker 5: internationally Australia, Europe. So yeah, there is interest in trying
Speaker 5: to figure out what happened.
Speaker 6: Now throughout this book, unlike some true crime books or
Speaker 6: most true crime books, you are inextricably involved throughout this
Speaker 6: entire book, speaking with private investigators, police, the DA Hunter,
Speaker 6: the New DA Garnet afterwards, so literally friends of John,
Speaker 6: Benny Ramsey and Patsy and Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey.
Speaker 6: So this incredible access. With that in mind, what is
Speaker 6: the when you talk about that gap in between the
Speaker 6: two scenarios. Let's go back right to that December twenty
Speaker 6: sixth as you do to explain what was going on
Speaker 6: between with the scenario of the Boulder Police, the Denver
Speaker 6: Police Department, the FBI, everybody involved here. That created a
Speaker 6: compromised situation right from the very beginning as you talk
Speaker 6: about talk about December twenty sixth, but also talk about
Speaker 6: the reality of the situation with the police department, the FBI,
Speaker 6: Denver Police, and the DA all at the same time.
Speaker 5: Well, it was December twenty sixth, and so that means
Speaker 5: that it was the holiday season. The Boulder Police Department
Speaker 5: was understaffed. They get about one murder year in Boulder,
Speaker 5: and as police departments will tell you in larger cities,
Speaker 5: if you don't do homicides very often, you don't do
Speaker 5: them very well or kidnappings. Boulder had never seen a
Speaker 5: case like this that occurred on December twenty sixth, So
Speaker 5: there weren't as many people there to work it. And
Speaker 5: everyone knows that mistakes were made at the very beginning
Speaker 5: the most outstanding mistake to me is and I felt
Speaker 5: that again watching the Lifetime show on Saturday, was that
Speaker 5: the police searched the house initially, which is what you're
Speaker 5: supposed to do. Why they would not have gone into
Speaker 5: every room is an absolute mystery to me, because they
Speaker 5: did not go into the so called wine cellar in
Speaker 5: the basement where the body was found about six or
Speaker 5: seven hours later. So you know, if that had happened,
Speaker 5: you would have had a much more pristine situation there.
Speaker 5: In terms of evidence. People are calling it a crime scene.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to use that for reasons it might
Speaker 5: become clear later on, but so that was one angle
Speaker 5: of it. The district Attorney, Alex Hunter was in Hawaii
Speaker 5: when this happened, on vacation over the holiday season, so
Speaker 5: he wasn't there to sort of help manage it, which
Speaker 5: was another problem. But what to really go back to
Speaker 5: what you were saying about my involvement and my wife's involvement,
Speaker 5: is that in the first weeks of January nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 5: which is to say, a couple of weeks after the
Speaker 5: body was found, we were invited to go to a
Speaker 5: television station in Denver where a reporter had told us
Speaker 5: that a hacker was going to be doing some things
Speaker 5: on a computer that evening, and so we went there.
Speaker 5: And everyone has to remember this is early nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 5: The Internet is quite young. It's very young in terms
Speaker 5: of law enforcements, sort of understanding how crimes would be
Speaker 5: committed using the Internet, all kinds of crime. So what
Speaker 5: we saw that evening was absolutely shocking. This guy took
Speaker 5: us into child pornography sites, sites where there were video
Speaker 5: and stills of children who were tied up, children who
Speaker 5: had things around their wrists, around their necks. As we
Speaker 5: know when you look at the crime scene with John Manay,
Speaker 5: that's exactly what you saw. You saw something around her
Speaker 5: neck and her wrist. You saw that she had been strangled,
Speaker 5: and this was by far the most evocative thing visually
Speaker 5: that connected to the crime. And then you had the
Speaker 5: realization that all of these people who were engaged in
Speaker 5: these activities were hooked up with one another via the Internet.
Speaker 5: So the chances of getting caught doing it and all
Speaker 5: of that that had been relevant to child pornography investigations
Speaker 5: earlier didn't apply in this realm. The band doing the
Speaker 5: hacking typed in the word John Benet. There was a
Speaker 5: feeding frenzy of people just pouring in saying, I want
Speaker 5: pictures of her, I want pictures of her that are
Speaker 5: nude or riskuay, I want pictures of her when she's dead,
Speaker 5: I mean. And it was absolutely a revelation to me
Speaker 5: because I didn't know all of these things that were
Speaker 5: going on. And these were kids, girls who were five, six,
Speaker 5: seven years old, the same age as John Manett. So
Speaker 5: you sort of file that away and go wealth would
Speaker 5: there be any connection whatsoever between this death and Boulder
Speaker 5: and this kind of exploitation through visual images. I just
Speaker 5: sort of let it ride, you know, right there. But
Speaker 5: we began talking to pageant mothers at that in this
Speaker 5: area right after that, and they told us the same
Speaker 5: story over and over again. And the story was about
Speaker 5: John Benet's primary pageant photographer, who they all knew well,
Speaker 5: they all had long standing relationship with, and they all
Speaker 5: thought he was a good guy. In the aftermath of
Speaker 5: the murder, he called them all up in the middle
Speaker 5: of the night. He was screaming, he was crying, he
Speaker 5: was saying, I did not kill John Benet. I did
Speaker 5: not kill John Binet. And nobody could figure out why
Speaker 5: he was behaving this way, because you know, he wasn't
Speaker 5: being looked at as a suspect. So we gathered information
Speaker 5: from the pageant mothers who told us that these pageants
Speaker 5: did draw in shady characters. There were judges, there were photographers,
Speaker 5: there were others who were considered dangerous and they should
Speaker 5: not be there, and in various cases they were told
Speaker 5: to leave the premises. I mean, it is sort of
Speaker 5: a natural magnet for people who are interested in that
Speaker 5: sort of thing. So we had gathered quite a lot
Speaker 5: of information, and one hundred days went by there wasn't
Speaker 5: arrest in the case. Every week, every day on talk radio,
Speaker 5: there will be an arrest today, one of the Ramsy'll
Speaker 5: be arrested. Nothing happened. So I had observed Alex Hunter,
Speaker 5: the district attorney, through his various television appearances and all that,
Speaker 5: and I thought he seemed like an interesting man, like
Speaker 5: thoughtful and not exactly the image of the hard nosed
Speaker 5: district attorney. So I decided to call him and we
Speaker 5: had a conversation and he said, come on into my
Speaker 5: office and let's discuss all of this. So I told
Speaker 5: him the story that I've just laid out here, and
Speaker 5: I think he was very taken with it and realized
Speaker 5: that the Bolder police, as most everyone knows, were fixated
Speaker 5: right on the Ramsey family and there was this much broader,
Speaker 5: potential criminal area around the child that really wasn't being
Speaker 5: looked at. He didn't know anything about this photographer, he
Speaker 5: didn't know what the pageant others were saying. He was
Speaker 5: unaware of that whole thing, and the Boulder police had
Speaker 5: not really looked into it either. So that was really
Speaker 5: the starting place of basically asking the question, is this
Speaker 5: case about something more than a mother killing her child
Speaker 5: because she wets the bed.
Speaker 6: Let's go back just a little bit and we'll come
Speaker 6: back to the more to a further examination of this
Speaker 6: child porn angle and the examinations you do by investigating
Speaker 6: numerous photographers and other people involved with the pageants themselves.
Speaker 6: But let's talk about the crime scene itself, because I
Speaker 6: think a lot of people are really confused as to
Speaker 6: how you've come to this. If we don't explain this,
Speaker 6: how you come to this conclusion of this third scenario
Speaker 6: where it can't it doesn't have to be that the
Speaker 6: Ramseys were completely guilty, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 6: that the intruder was completely guilty without the Ramseys being
Speaker 6: with the Ramsays being completely innocent. So tell us what
Speaker 6: exactly was found at that crime scene that also led
Speaker 6: you alluded to a little bit in that terms of
Speaker 6: the photos that you saw that were related and connected.
Speaker 6: It seemed to the kind the kind of staging that
Speaker 6: John Benay had been posed under.
Speaker 5: So you look at the crime scene itself, there's duct
Speaker 5: tape on the girl's mouth. It cannot be sourced to
Speaker 5: anything in the house. There's fiber evidence on the body
Speaker 5: that can't be sourced to anything in the house. The
Speaker 5: material in the garage, with the exception of the little
Speaker 5: wooden handle, can't be sourced. That's a nylon type of twine,
Speaker 5: can't be sourced to anything in the house. And then
Speaker 5: the stun gun marks on her neck which became are
Speaker 5: very evident. There are pictures of her taken about four
Speaker 5: o'clock in the afternoon on Christmas Day where she's sitting
Speaker 5: in her living room and you have a very clear
Speaker 5: view of that side of her neck. And then if
Speaker 5: you look at the autopsy photo which was taken the
Speaker 5: following day, there are two very prominent burn marks that
Speaker 5: people who know a lot more about this than I
Speaker 5: do have identified as the result of a stun gun.
Speaker 5: There's no sourcing of a stun gun in the house.
Speaker 5: And then you get to the DNA evidence, which has
Speaker 5: taken a long time to develop in his historian and
Speaker 5: of itself. The one piece of information that came out
Speaker 5: of the Lifetime show in a very clear way for
Speaker 5: me was that we know that there was DNA left
Speaker 5: in the child's pants and that and that there are
Speaker 5: a couple of samples of that. The argument against that
Speaker 5: is that is that belonging to the perpetrator, is that
Speaker 5: that could have just come there in the manufacturing of
Speaker 5: the underpants. Some worker in Asia just leaves their DNA
Speaker 5: in there and then you find it. So that's been
Speaker 5: kicked around a lot with the development of what they
Speaker 5: call touch DNA, which is a much more sophisticated form
Speaker 5: of DNA, which has been developed more in this you know,
Speaker 5: after two thousand, the articles of clothing were sent to
Speaker 5: what's called the Bode Laboratory and using touch DNA, they
Speaker 5: they reason that if you took off the child's long
Speaker 5: John's not are underpants but are long johns, that there
Speaker 5: would be something left around the you know, the seam
Speaker 5: of the Long Johns on the child. So they look
Speaker 5: there and they found several examples of the same DNA
Speaker 5: that DNA matches what's in the underpants. The two things
Speaker 5: were manufactured in different locations. It's all consistent coming from
Speaker 5: one unidentified male source. I would suggest that's the extremely
Speaker 5: strong evidence of the person who was involved with the
Speaker 5: child that night. And we don't know who it belongs to,
Speaker 5: so the perpetrator is unknown. But for me, it was
Speaker 5: a very clear explanation that you can't simply explain away
Speaker 5: all of this matching DNA from a manufacturing process, and
Speaker 5: I thought that was very important. So that's the crime
Speaker 5: scene that you're looking at. You have a number of
Speaker 5: things that cannot be tied to anything that's in that house.
Speaker 5: Then you have, you know, the ransom note. And the
Speaker 5: question I always had was, well, if an intruder did it,
Speaker 5: very basic question, why would you leave a body and
Speaker 5: a ransom note? It just it doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 5: I mean, you'd leave the ransom note and take the kid,
Speaker 5: or you know, if you're going to kill a kid,
Speaker 5: you probably wouldn't leave a three page note. So on
Speaker 5: the surface told me is that this is a more
Speaker 5: complex case than it's generally being looked at. So, I mean,
Speaker 5: that's the sort of evidentiary part of it that the
Speaker 5: police and the District Attorney's office were confronted with right
Speaker 5: from the beginning, and that plays out, you know, as
Speaker 5: the case goes along.
Speaker 6: I may be jumping ahead a little bit, but what
Speaker 6: I thought was very, very very interesting to me is
Speaker 6: that there's been so much speculation about this ransom note,
Speaker 6: and maybe we should talk about the contents of that
Speaker 6: ransom note. But what I found fascinating was that you
Speaker 6: state that about some of the contents or one crucial content,
Speaker 6: that being that one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus.
Speaker 6: And again you're not I'm going to ask you if
Speaker 6: you conclude something from that in that Patsy Ramsey did
Speaker 6: not know of that one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus.
Speaker 6: So could you tell us about the content of the
Speaker 6: ransom note something? I mean, I brought it all kinds
Speaker 6: of handwriting analysis for.
Speaker 5: This, so I yeah, and when and again on the
Speaker 5: Lifetime show when they showed her handwriting compared to the
Speaker 5: writing on the note it really did not look all
Speaker 5: that similar, and an expert on there said that here's
Speaker 5: here's the basic thing that I'm suggesting, and to go
Speaker 5: back to nineteen ninety six through nineteen ninety nine, when
Speaker 5: we were doing this research and involved primarily with the
Speaker 5: District Attorney's office, but also with private investigators in a
Speaker 5: little bit with the police department. I was suggesting, and
Speaker 5: I think I'm the only person who was suggesting that
Speaker 5: there is something in between the Ramseys being totally guilty
Speaker 5: and or the Ramseys being totally innocent because an intruder
Speaker 5: did this not a popular opinion at that time in
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety nine. In nineteen ninety eight, Alex Hunter asked
Speaker 5: a grand jury to sit down and look at all
Speaker 5: of the evidence in hear testimony. The grand jury sat
Speaker 5: for thirteen months. That is an incredibly long period of
Speaker 5: time for a grand jury to do this kind of work.
Speaker 5: It's usually three or four days, you indict somebody and
Speaker 5: you move on to the next thing. So that alone
Speaker 5: was extraordinary. After the thirteen months, Alex Hunter came out
Speaker 5: and said, I'm not going to indict anybody, and I'm
Speaker 5: going to seal the eighteen page document that the grand
Speaker 5: jury produced, so we didn't know what was in those
Speaker 5: eighteen pages going forward. And my assumption, and I was
Speaker 5: rather sympathetic to Alex Hunter. I dealt with him quite
Speaker 5: a lot. But my assumption was he might have or
Speaker 5: could have made the right decision by doing that. So
Speaker 5: fourteen years pass, it's twenty thirteen. October twenty thirteen, the
Speaker 5: Boulder Daily Camera sued the District Attorney's office it's now
Speaker 5: two district attorneys later, to get that document released. It's
Speaker 5: a public document, the public funds that public does have
Speaker 5: the right to know. A judge ordered that four paragraphs
Speaker 5: out of the eighteen pages would be made public, just
Speaker 5: four paragraphs. Those paragraphs state very clearly that the Ramses
Speaker 5: were to be indicted according to the grand jury for
Speaker 5: two things. There are two counts counts foreign counts seven.
Speaker 5: The first one is that they exposed their daughter to
Speaker 5: the circumstances that led to her death child endangerment. The
Speaker 5: second one is that they helped cover up a crime,
Speaker 5: not for murder. They were not or the grand jury,
Speaker 5: which had looked at the evidence for thirteen months, did
Speaker 5: not recommend that they be indicted for murder. So my
Speaker 5: point is that that is precisely in the middle of
Speaker 5: total guilt or total innocence. The people who studied the
Speaker 5: case more than anybody, the people who had access to
Speaker 5: all the evidence, the people who heard testimony for thirteen months,
Speaker 5: effectively came to the same conclusion that I was talking
Speaker 5: about in nineteen ninety nine, that there's more here than
Speaker 5: two options. They gave that to the district attorney, Alex Hunter,
Speaker 5: and he chose not to take their work and indict
Speaker 5: their amsy parents. Looking back now from twenty thirteen, I
Speaker 5: cannot understand why they were not indicted. What it tells
Speaker 5: me is that Boulder did not want to open up
Speaker 5: this case and all of the elements that we've been
Speaker 5: talking about to public scrutiny, and they just wanted to
Speaker 5: bury it because the thing was sealed. It was supposed
Speaker 5: to be sealed forever, and it was only a lawsuit
Speaker 5: that brought that to light. So now you have four
Speaker 5: paragraphs saying that both parents were indicted on those or
Speaker 5: were recommended to be indicted on those twoccounts. So here's
Speaker 5: the next question. What's in the other fourteen pages? Is
Speaker 5: somebody else named in there? Are there other people involved
Speaker 5: in this, Why wasn't the whole document released? Again, if
Speaker 5: you just think about it from a common sense perspective,
Speaker 5: why would you ask a grand jury to go to
Speaker 5: all that trouble and then they come back and did
Speaker 5: exactly what they're supposed to do, and then you bury
Speaker 5: what they did. I'm suggesting that this is a bigger
Speaker 5: story than mom killing a kid for wedding the bed.
Speaker 5: And I think if you look at Boulders response since then,
Speaker 5: or in and around the whole thing, you get exactly
Speaker 5: the same thing. They don't want to prosecute this. They
Speaker 5: don't want to go forward.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about this cover up, that it must
Speaker 6: be a cover up, and you examine and explore this culture,
Speaker 6: this pageantry again a little bit let us know a
Speaker 6: little of the phenomena. But you you know, you detail
Speaker 6: this here, So tell us a little bit what you
Speaker 6: found about the culture. You talked to a woman that's
Speaker 6: very very important this story, Pam Griffin, and she had
Speaker 6: worked with John Benny Ramsay, her daughter, at three years old,
Speaker 6: had won a pageant herself. So tell us about Pam
Speaker 6: Griffith and the entire exploration where you talk to photographers
Speaker 6: and find out about this incredible subculture.
Speaker 5: Yes, Pam was very important because Pam was not only
Speaker 5: a good friend of Patsy's, but sewed John Manet's pageant dresses,
Speaker 5: and so she was around them a great deal, and
Speaker 5: she and Patsy just seemed to get along, you know,
Speaker 5: really well, so well. She was Of all the pageant
Speaker 5: mothers we spoke to, she was by far the most
Speaker 5: street smart, and she would say things like, I instinctively
Speaker 5: would never let my daughter be alone with a photographer.
Speaker 5: All the photographer has to do is say change from
Speaker 5: the blue dress into the red dress. While that's going on,
Speaker 5: take a picture, and you have something you can sell.
Speaker 5: And believe me, going into that room with that hacker,
Speaker 5: you totally understood that there were people offering money for
Speaker 5: the photographs. There were people offering money for pictures that
Speaker 5: or offering pictures of their own children in exchange for photographs.
Speaker 5: And it was this marketplace that was flourishing underground. So
Speaker 5: she was very important in talking about the kinds of
Speaker 5: characters who came around the pageant world that they had
Speaker 5: to get rid of. She had confrontations with several people
Speaker 5: and told them that you know, they just they couldn't
Speaker 5: be there around the children and kind of opened up
Speaker 5: that doorway and Patsy was confided in her the day
Speaker 5: after the body was found. It's a very dramatic scene.
Speaker 5: It's December twenty seventh, nineteen ninety six. The body was
Speaker 5: found the day before. The Ramses were not staying in
Speaker 5: that house and had to go over and stay with
Speaker 5: a friend, some friends, and Patsy and Pam were together
Speaker 5: all day long, and Patsy kept saying, why did they
Speaker 5: do this to my child? Why did they do it
Speaker 5: to my child as opposed to anyone else? And it
Speaker 5: was We interviewed Pam nineteen years after the initial interview
Speaker 5: with her, and she was even more revealing about some
Speaker 5: of the things that were said that day. I'm not
Speaker 5: at liberty for a variety of reasons to talk about
Speaker 5: that right now, but there is an ongoing investigation into
Speaker 5: some of that. So she was a very critical person
Speaker 5: with Patsy at that time. The important part of that
Speaker 5: is that she was interviewed by the police and by
Speaker 5: the grand jury. And I don't know what went on
Speaker 5: in the grand jury because that secret, but she was
Speaker 5: interviewed by the police. They never asked her about the
Speaker 5: pageant world. They never asked her about pedophiles or photographers
Speaker 5: or any of that. The only thing they were interested
Speaker 5: in was if Patsy was an abusive mother and did
Speaker 5: she know did she abuse her children? And so it
Speaker 5: was extremely interesting to me that all of this information
Speaker 5: that we've sort of extracted from her, I think could
Speaker 5: have been used by the Boulder police to interview a
Speaker 5: lot of people and to learn a lot more about
Speaker 5: the culture that John Manay was operating in, and they
Speaker 5: never did it. And again, it's the same thing. Let's
Speaker 5: restrict this to one family, one person and narrow it
Speaker 5: down to that. That would be fine if the case
Speaker 5: had been solved, But obviously the case has never been
Speaker 5: solved and it's never advanced. And I think if you
Speaker 5: look at the behavior of Alex Hunter, which I just described,
Speaker 5: and then in two thousand and eight, another district attorney,
Speaker 5: Mary Lacy, looked at that new DNA evidence that we
Speaker 5: just talked about, and she publicly cleared the Ramseys of
Speaker 5: committing the murder. Why is that strange and unusual? The
Speaker 5: Ramseys were not to be indicted for murder, That was
Speaker 5: never the charge that was on the table. It amazes
Speaker 5: me that you can have one show after another on television,
Speaker 5: as we've seen CBS, all the big names, and they're
Speaker 5: not talking about what has actually happened here, that the
Speaker 5: Ramseys were in fact indicted for something other than murder,
Speaker 5: or were to be indicted, and the two district attorneys
Speaker 5: have gone out of their way to bury that to
Speaker 5: get rid of it. Why what's the motivation behind that?
Speaker 5: I would suggest that there were people in Bolder, some
Speaker 5: of them in fairly high up places, who were involved
Speaker 5: in these kinds of illicit activities with children. We know
Speaker 5: of one or two. We know someone in particular who
Speaker 5: was very high up in the polar power structure who
Speaker 5: left town after this case, moved abroad. We know of
Speaker 5: another gentleman who did the same thing. He didn't leave
Speaker 5: the country, but he left the state. And there's all
Speaker 5: kinds of evidence that more was going on around the
Speaker 5: child and around other children in Bolder involving these kinds
Speaker 5: of activities. And I think that what happened here is
Speaker 5: that something went terribly drastically wrong and it had to
Speaker 5: be covered up. And that's exactly what the grand jury
Speaker 5: said that the Ramsays participated in the cover.
Speaker 6: Of you talk about again, you had already spoken about
Speaker 6: this photographer named Simons, these two photographers in particular that
Speaker 6: took photos of John Benney, and you also talk about
Speaker 6: and we haven't mentioned again, it's quite shocking for people
Speaker 6: to see the sexualization of these children. But also that
Speaker 6: you talk about there being smile coaches and makeup and
Speaker 6: push up bras or to make these children look like
Speaker 6: they had cleavage, and John Benay and Patsy whether Patsy
Speaker 6: was deluded in her quest to get her daughter to
Speaker 6: be this Miss America that she never became. You also
Speaker 6: talk about Patty Griffiths talking or pardon me, another woman
Speaker 6: talking about this particular photographer asking for her daughter to
Speaker 6: pose nude. So tell us a little bit more about these.
Speaker 5: Right, there was more than anecdotal evidence that some of
Speaker 5: the mothers talked about that, you know, if the child
Speaker 5: is photographed nude, I can you know, I can promote
Speaker 5: that child more easily. I can, uh you know, get
Speaker 5: her further up the ladder. In the pageant world, there
Speaker 5: were stories about if, if, if the mothers would have
Speaker 5: sex with the photographers, they could promote the kids more
Speaker 5: so that it was not an entirely innocent environment. And
Speaker 5: Pam is the one who really laid that out. So yes,
Speaker 5: I mean the children are being sexualized. The children, all
Speaker 5: the things you talked about died, heir teeth, eyes, push
Speaker 5: up raws, the whole bit. And guests who would be
Speaker 5: attracted to that kind of thing, well, people who are
Speaker 5: illicitly attracted for sexual per This is the children. And
Speaker 5: again to sort of point out the obvious here, but
Speaker 5: it hasn't been obvious in this case, is that there
Speaker 5: was no criminal history of any kind whatsoever within the
Speaker 5: Ramsey family. There wasn't one example where somebody came forward
Speaker 5: and said, I saw Patsy hit John Binney, I saw
Speaker 5: Patsy yell at John Binney or Burke or anyone in
Speaker 5: the family. None of it existed. I've written three books
Speaker 5: about women who've committed murders, and in every case there's
Speaker 5: a pathology behind the crime that eventually surfaces in one
Speaker 5: way or another, and you learn that people are either
Speaker 5: through mental problems or pressures of a different kind, or
Speaker 5: whatever it comes out. There's a logic behind why a
Speaker 5: woman goes and kills somebody. None of it applies in
Speaker 5: this case. Absolutely none of it, And so the next
Speaker 5: question becomes, what is the criminal activity surrounding this case?
Speaker 5: Where's the natural place to look, and that is in
Speaker 5: the kinds of people who would be attracted to a
Speaker 5: childlike John Maina in the pageant world, in the world
Speaker 5: of photography, in the world in Boulder, where people were
Speaker 5: doing illicit things with children. There are cases that were prosecuted,
Speaker 5: there are cases that were not prosecuted. Around this. There's
Speaker 5: a whole realm there that has effectively been ignored. And
Speaker 5: when it came right up to the edge of prosecuting
Speaker 5: this case and figuring out what happened, which the district
Speaker 5: attorney had not only the right, but the obligation to do,
Speaker 5: they backed off. They sealed the file and they said
Speaker 5: the public has no right to know any of this.
Speaker 5: The public spent two million dollars on the John Bine
Speaker 5: Ramsey investigator. That's in the earth years. I don't know
Speaker 5: what it is since then, but in the first two
Speaker 5: to three years. I suggest that public has the right
Speaker 5: to know in this particular case, because I'm suggesting that
Speaker 5: other children were exposed to the same thing, and maybe
Speaker 5: some of the same people, And that's the real story
Speaker 5: to me. At this point, not so much who killed her,
Speaker 5: I think the DNA would tell you that, But why
Speaker 5: can't the case be solved? Why has there been a
Speaker 5: roadblock every single time someone has tried effectively to penetrate
Speaker 5: the case and solve it.
Speaker 6: Now with this civilian organization, this investigation that you were
Speaker 6: a part of, because every time, as you chronicle in
Speaker 6: the book, every time you go to a private investigator,
Speaker 6: whether you're invited, you give much more information than you
Speaker 6: get back, and you ask questions that seemed to their
Speaker 6: response the sponsor to solicited seems to be that they
Speaker 6: really aren't looking at that child pornography angle. They're not
Speaker 6: looking at anything other than what they were told it
Speaker 6: seems to look for. And then, like you say, when
Speaker 6: it seems like there might be a revelation or a breakthrough,
Speaker 6: their silence rod telling me how you found out about
Speaker 6: something that I found was the most horrific part of
Speaker 6: this book. A thing to imagine is mister White, John
Speaker 6: Ramsay's friend, the Christmas day that they spent over there,
Speaker 6: and then the rumor that you hear, the story that
Speaker 6: you hear about Santa Claus and a special meeting with
Speaker 6: John Benney right.
Speaker 5: Jeminey told at least three people that she was to
Speaker 5: have a secret meeting with a secret Santa Claus on
Speaker 5: Christmas night. Old a neighbor woman this, and the neighbor
Speaker 5: woman said to her, jomine, you're mistaken. Santa Claus comes
Speaker 5: on Christmas Eve. Everybody knows that, and John Mayne said, no,
Speaker 5: it's Christmas Night. Now, as we all know, the murder
Speaker 5: occurs on Christmas Night. There's a story where John and
Speaker 5: A and her family are at the White family on
Speaker 5: Christmas Night, and it's at the very end of the
Speaker 5: book and John and A tells her mother, I'm going
Speaker 5: to have a meeting with a secret Santa and Patty
Speaker 5: starts to question her about this, and John and A
Speaker 5: runs off and never never questions her about that again
Speaker 5: because she's dead within the next few hours. So I
Speaker 5: believe that if you're looking for the source of the
Speaker 5: unidentified DNA, that this connection to a secret Santa Claus,
Speaker 5: and it's and again, I want to clarify for people
Speaker 5: who are familiar with the case, I'm not talking about
Speaker 5: the Santa Claus who came to the Ramsey's house on
Speaker 5: December twenty third of that year. Bill McReynolds. That's someone else.
Speaker 5: He was cleared by the police, and I think he
Speaker 5: should have been. This is something else. She mentioned this
Speaker 5: to her mother, she mentioned this to the neighbor woman,
Speaker 5: and she mentioned it to a third person. And I
Speaker 5: believe that she was either went from that party to
Speaker 5: some other location where this crime went down, or perhaps
Speaker 5: she went home, as the official story is, and then
Speaker 5: she went somewhere else. I do not believe at all
Speaker 5: that the Ramses knew what was going on at that level.
Speaker 5: I do not believe that. I think Patsy all of
Speaker 5: her behavior around the pageant stuff is innocent, but it's
Speaker 5: a type of innocence that can be extremely dangerous. And
Speaker 5: I think she was exposing her daughter to a lot
Speaker 5: of people and a lot of things that ultimately were dangerous.
Speaker 5: And so when people say Patsy Ramsey's guilty, that's what
Speaker 5: I believe she's guilty of. Pam Griffin was not like that.
Speaker 5: I won't leave my daughter alone with certain people. I
Speaker 5: will keep an eagle eye on her at all times.
Speaker 5: I don't think Patsy operated that way. I think she
Speaker 5: was naive, she was trusting, and she had been in
Speaker 5: a pageant world which is probably more innocent when she
Speaker 5: was involved in it. But this is the nineteen nineties.
Speaker 5: There's the Internet, there's child exploitation, there's an underground, worldwide
Speaker 5: marketplace in this kind of photography, these kinds of images.
Speaker 5: People are getting involved in this. One of the photographers
Speaker 5: around John and A subsequently said he was approached by
Speaker 5: child pornographers who wanted to use pictures of those children,
Speaker 5: you know, to create product essentially. And by then, one
Speaker 5: of the things that we heard repeatedly from pageant mothers
Speaker 5: is that, of course you can take the head of
Speaker 5: one of the pretty little girls, you can put it
Speaker 5: on another body, and you can sell that enimies. We
Speaker 5: were told that point blank by people who were involved
Speaker 5: in this world in the late nineties. So all of
Speaker 5: this stuff was going on, and it was all swirling
Speaker 5: around John Binney and her family, and I believe that
Speaker 5: someone was became aware of her through these circumstances, became
Speaker 5: you know, that she was a pretty little girl. She
Speaker 5: was a natural target for predators. And I believe that
Speaker 5: she attended some event that went horribly wrong. I think
Speaker 5: it probably involved prominent people and it had to be
Speaker 5: covered up. And again, if you look at what the
Speaker 5: grand jury concluded. If you look at the language of
Speaker 5: their conclusion, they're saying the Ramses exposed their daughter to
Speaker 5: the circumstances that led to her death and participated in
Speaker 5: a cover up. And I think that's as close to
Speaker 5: the truth as we've gotten in the case. As you
Speaker 5: said at the start of the show, there's absolute truth
Speaker 5: where we absolutely know what happened, and we don't have
Speaker 5: that here. And there's effective truth where you can try to,
Speaker 5: you know, logically and reasonably extrapolate from the circumstances. How
Speaker 5: did all the evidence get on her body. If it's
Speaker 5: not inside that house, where did it come from? It
Speaker 5: had to come from somewhere, right, I mean, so again,
Speaker 5: if you break it down logically, it's perfectly possible to
Speaker 5: suggest that she did not die inside that house, that
Speaker 5: she was not killed by an intruder, and that she
Speaker 5: was not killed by her parents.
Speaker 6: If I go along with that, which I find perfectly reasonable.
Speaker 6: I also, again my imagination worlds with this very suspicious
Speaker 6: photographer crying and contacting all these people and acting very
Speaker 6: very guilty, this simon, and also mister White who Ramsey
Speaker 6: throws under the bus. But and versely he won't, he
Speaker 6: won't speak out against the Ramseys acted incredibly suspicious, trying
Speaker 6: to separate Patsy from a PAM and just incredible behavior,
Speaker 6: and then they have a falling out John and mister White.
Speaker 6: My imagination runs to taking it far more sinister in it.
Speaker 6: I see a photo session with this slimy Simons and
Speaker 6: some prominent person like you say, having some kind of
Speaker 6: Santa photo fantasy, whereas I think Patsy Ramsey is conveniently naive,
Speaker 6: and I think something goes much more than horribly wrong.
Speaker 6: I think this is I don't know how much more
Speaker 6: evil the scenario you can get than Christmas, Santa and
Speaker 6: child porn.
Speaker 5: Right, And I think what you're describing is exactly what
Speaker 5: needs to be investigated, and it is exactly what the
Speaker 5: system has resisted investigating. And I'm not naming names here again,
Speaker 5: I want to be clear about that, but that if
Speaker 5: I believe that if the investigation had been opened up
Speaker 5: into these realms, the case would probably be solved. I
Speaker 5: believe that if the Ramseys had been indicted on what
Speaker 5: the grand jury concluded, because there are reasons to believe
Speaker 5: that the grand jury heard about some of what I'm
Speaker 5: talking about there are reasons to believe that, which goes
Speaker 5: back to that question, what's in the other fourteen pages.
Speaker 5: How did they conclude that the Ramses exposed their daughter
Speaker 5: to something if they're not telling us what that something was.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a very obvious journalistic question. So this
Speaker 5: is the road that they absolutely have refused to go down.
Speaker 5: What's the end result? The case is unsolved, and I again,
Speaker 5: I think it touched on people inside the Boulder power
Speaker 5: structure that were absolutely determined that this was not going
Speaker 5: to come out, and it hasn't come out, So, you know,
Speaker 5: except in you know, in examples like this where you
Speaker 5: really do try to apply investigative journalism to the situation
Speaker 5: as opposed to just jumping to a conclusion.
Speaker 6: You explained in this book, and we haven't talked about this,
Speaker 6: that we hear numerous stories with this True Murder broadcast
Speaker 6: about infighting and departments not sharing information, a massive disconnect
Speaker 6: between agencies. But you explain Boulder's somewhat unique political situation,
Speaker 6: and you say that it seemed to be that Boulder
Speaker 6: was trying to really cultivate a certain image and retain
Speaker 6: that image even through this John Benet debacle.
Speaker 5: Boulder is extremely image conscious. I mean anybody who's been
Speaker 5: there or been around it, I mean it cultivates you know,
Speaker 5: high minded, high mindedness, liberal affluent, you know, college community
Speaker 5: to the nth degree. They are very very image conscious.
Speaker 5: And there's nothing worse for your image than, you know,
Speaker 5: a dead child in a dirty basement with a garage
Speaker 5: around her neck that nobody can explain and that nobody
Speaker 5: will help solve. So yeah, and to go to the
Speaker 5: disconnect between various police agencies or district attorneys. This is
Speaker 5: what actually happened when I went to Alex Hunter in
Speaker 5: the spring of nineteen ninety seven and I laid out
Speaker 5: the things that we've been talking about here, and they
Speaker 5: involved the Internet, they involved the images and these things.
Speaker 5: And he said to me, and I swear this is true,
Speaker 5: the Bolder police will not investigate any of this, so
Speaker 5: I think you should go do that. Now. This is
Speaker 5: the highest legal official in the most prominent case in
Speaker 5: the history of the state and region suggesting to a
Speaker 5: journalist that because the police department will not do their work,
Speaker 5: that someone like myself should go look into that which
Speaker 5: would involve breaking the law. Absolutely. I wasn't very Internet
Speaker 5: savvy back then anyway, but that shows you how entangled
Speaker 5: and screwed up this thing actually was. And it was
Speaker 5: that way because of the fixation essentially of the Boulder
Speaker 5: Police Department, And that, to me was the biggest sin
Speaker 5: in the case. Not that they made mistakes early on,
Speaker 5: because that happens, and not that their investigation, you know,
Speaker 5: didn't have flaws in it, but there was this sort
Speaker 5: of fundamental resistance to opening it up into looking into
Speaker 5: the natural criminal realm that this child was exposed to.
Speaker 6: You talk about the world and the culture of this
Speaker 6: child porn in nineteen ninety seven, Internet for general uses
Speaker 6: just a couple of years old, and then of course
Speaker 6: this is an update on the bad news, and you
Speaker 6: talk about twenty fourteen Time article about the dark Web.
Speaker 6: So I guess we know that it hasn't gotten better
Speaker 6: since ninety seven.
Speaker 5: It's you know, law enforcement began to catch up with
Speaker 5: when I in ninety seven there were five worldwide child
Speaker 5: porn sites. By two thousand there were one hundred thousand,
Speaker 5: so it was growing exponentially, and law enforcement has made
Speaker 5: some strives to catch up at that, but it just
Speaker 5: goes further and further underground now you have the dark web,
Speaker 5: bitcoins and all of that that angle of this. So
Speaker 5: I think people just need to be aware that, you know,
Speaker 5: all of this stuff is out there, just like Pam
Speaker 5: Griffin said, you have to be street smart and aware
Speaker 5: that children could be exposed to these things and it
Speaker 5: could be very dangerous. And really that was the sort
Speaker 5: of the underlying purpose of writing the book. I didn't
Speaker 5: know what happened, and I didn't you know, I didn't
Speaker 5: have many of the answers, and I was involved in
Speaker 5: a little bit of speculation, but I felt that I
Speaker 5: was I think it was one of the first books
Speaker 5: to talk about this this underground criminal realm that was
Speaker 5: emerging up through the Internet, and I thought that was
Speaker 5: worth writing about anyway, and that people should be aware
Speaker 5: of that that images can be used for these purposes.
Speaker 5: So that's why, you know, you don't as a true
Speaker 5: crime writer, you know, no one wants to write a
Speaker 5: book where you don't have the answers, where you don't
Speaker 5: really know what happened and you can tell that story
Speaker 5: to people that wasn't possible. Then it's still not entirely
Speaker 5: possible now. But I thought the exposing of this other
Speaker 5: realm was worthwhile.
Speaker 6: This other realm. Also, you write about the worldwide events
Speaker 6: since that time, and you describe again the audience can
Speaker 6: handle that we're talking about child porn, not to be
Speaker 6: mistaken for fifteen year olds in a baiting suit. Tell
Speaker 6: us exactly what this worldwide arrests and what type of
Speaker 6: pornography is found. You spoke to a group called enough
Speaker 6: is Enough.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little extremely graphic, I mean, just so
Speaker 5: people are aware. But I mean what we saw in
Speaker 5: nineteen ninety seven was you know, children tied up hanging
Speaker 5: from the ceiling. Again, you could easily be strangled by
Speaker 5: something like that if something went wrong, and that's exactly
Speaker 5: what appears to have happened to John Manet. You're talking
Speaker 5: about sex, you know, real time video of adults having
Speaker 5: sex with children. You're talking about the most graphic stuff
Speaker 5: you can imagine. And so you know this is and
Speaker 5: again I think part of this story is that this
Speaker 5: is dark matter. You know, this is dark material. People
Speaker 5: are uncomfortable with it. That's totally understandable. They want it
Speaker 5: to be this case to be about a mother who
Speaker 5: you know, hit her daughter over the head because she
Speaker 5: wet the bed. There was a scientific explanation on the
Speaker 5: Lifetime show and said that showed you why that is
Speaker 5: not what happened in this case. That the sequence of
Speaker 5: events was the strangulation because they are defensive wounds on
Speaker 5: John Benet and there were you know, efforts to get
Speaker 5: the garage off her neck by her as she was dying.
Speaker 5: And the whole scientific scenario is laid out that that's
Speaker 5: that she didn't get whacked over the head, and then
Speaker 5: the Ramsays created this factual scenario in the basement the
Speaker 5: sequence of events is the other way around, which implies
Speaker 5: that you know, she was killed and then this thing
Speaker 5: was covered up. So you know, I understand. I think
Speaker 5: a lot of my experience in writing about this or
Speaker 5: trying to bring any shed any light on it at all,
Speaker 5: has been met with resistance because people, you know, this
Speaker 5: is a tough thing to think about, but it's real
Speaker 5: and it's out there, and the purpose of writing the
Speaker 5: book was to say that this is not the only
Speaker 5: child involved in this kind of stuff. I'm sure this
Speaker 5: is not the only child in this area that's been
Speaker 5: involved in this kind of stuff, and we need to
Speaker 5: be aware of it. We need to bring awareness to it.
Speaker 5: And I think if the case were solved. I mean,
Speaker 5: this is just my opinion, but I think it would
Speaker 5: it would help illuminate that, it would make people more aware,
Speaker 5: and that was really the underlying reason for doing this.
Speaker 6: Not to contradict you, but what I found awfully strange
Speaker 6: was that in light of the John Benet murder that
Speaker 6: the pageant business, the woman said it didn't affect me
Speaker 6: at all. In fact, I doubled my business.
Speaker 5: I think in some cases that's true. I also think
Speaker 5: it's been toned down in certain areas. It was here
Speaker 5: now maybe not the South. The South is a different animal,
Speaker 5: and we all know that in this area it toned
Speaker 5: down some of the costumes, some of the getting dulled
Speaker 5: up than all of that. So yeah, in some ways
Speaker 5: people were drawn to it because it had so much publicity.
Speaker 5: But I think it did make a vest Speaking with
Speaker 5: people like Pam Griffin, I think it sobered up a
Speaker 5: number of people who were involved in that and they
Speaker 5: began to rethink a little bit about what they were doing.
Speaker 6: The other thing I found was that you mentioned is
Speaker 6: that really it's not really the brightest and the most
Speaker 6: deviant or horrific people are that are actually arrested. You
Speaker 6: actually talk about so of the stupid people getting rounded up, only.
Speaker 5: In what context you mean in uh, in the you
Speaker 5: have a biography, Yes, you have peer to peer.
Speaker 6: So I mean, well, it just seems to me and
Speaker 6: you maybe I'm misinterpreting that comment.
Speaker 5: No. One of the cholorog of investigation men told me
Speaker 5: that very early on in the investigation, that you know,
Speaker 5: the dumb people were getting caught. But you know, one
Speaker 5: of the you always retain details from the research you do.
Speaker 5: But you know, I just remember being told that, you know,
Speaker 5: if you were in you know, Chicago and I'm in
Speaker 5: Denver and I wanted to send you an illicted image,
Speaker 5: I could send it from you know, Denver to Miami
Speaker 5: to London to Russia to Japan to you and it
Speaker 5: would be and that would take you know, something you know,
Speaker 5: under probably a couple of seconds, and that would be
Speaker 5: extremely difficult to track, you know, to figure out what
Speaker 5: the origin of it was, and all of those things.
Speaker 5: So some really smart people were utilizing the technology in
Speaker 5: that way. And that's again that's what made it such
Speaker 5: a difficult thing for law enforcement. And again that's that's
Speaker 5: one of the major things I wanted to write about.
Speaker 6: Now you also just talk about some other people and
Speaker 6: a gentleman in Denver that was arrested or a pardon me,
Speaker 6: just an hour outside of Boulder, and he was arrested
Speaker 6: in a child born ring. Now you tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about that and why you included that.
Speaker 5: Well, what happened was that in two thousand and two
Speaker 5: thousand and one, there were a couple of very very
Speaker 5: interesting poems that were written and were sent to a
Speaker 5: lawyer in Boulder who was a part of the Ramsey
Speaker 5: case in a kind of tangential way. And I subsequently
Speaker 5: got the poems and one of them contained names at
Speaker 5: the end of the poem, and there were six names.
Speaker 5: Five of the names were fairly well known to anybody
Speaker 5: who really knew this world. All of the people appeared
Speaker 5: to have connections to illicit activity with children. And there
Speaker 5: was a sixth name of somebody who nobody had ever heard.
Speaker 5: I hadn't heard of, and I didn't know anybody else
Speaker 5: who had. And this was two thousand and one, and
Speaker 5: I was very intrigued by that. Five years later, this
Speaker 5: individual was arrested on charge with forty nine counts a
Speaker 5: child porn creation and distribution and went into the legal
Speaker 5: system in Boulder, and you know, it was locked up.
Speaker 5: And so when the third District Attorney came in on
Speaker 5: the case Stangarnett in two thousand and nine, I began
Speaker 5: communicating with him and I shared this information. And again
Speaker 5: it's a little bit complicated, but what I'm saying is
Speaker 5: that somebody wrote a poem in two thousand and one
Speaker 5: about somebody who would be arrested for crimes in exactly
Speaker 5: this region. The poems were about child porn and crimes
Speaker 5: against children, and somebody was arrested for that and put
Speaker 5: into the system. So the person who wrote the poem
Speaker 5: knew that about this individual, and this individual turned out
Speaker 5: to be a perpetrator. I knew who wrote the poems,
Speaker 5: and I knew about the perpetrator, and I knew that
Speaker 5: the people doing this were trying to get some information
Speaker 5: to the law enforcement about people involved in these kinds
Speaker 5: of activities in this region, with a suggestion that this
Speaker 5: had a definite connection to the job and a Ramsey case.
Speaker 5: And I took it to the police and they wanted
Speaker 5: absolutely nothing to do with it. So, in other words,
Speaker 5: you have a perpetrator of these crimes sitting in the system.
Speaker 5: In the area. Police's job is to go interview people,
Speaker 5: learn what they know, learn who they know, learn how
Speaker 5: they got involved in this. You know, we've all watched
Speaker 5: the crime shows where you make deals with people based
Speaker 5: upon the information they give up. They wouldn't do it.
Speaker 5: Why wouldn't they do it? This is one example. There
Speaker 5: are numerous examples that I could give you of people
Speaker 5: who tried to come forward, who tried to talk about
Speaker 5: these activities, who tried to talk about people in the
Speaker 5: region who were involved in them. They were serious individuals,
Speaker 5: and they were completely rebuffed by the Boulder legal system.
Speaker 5: I can't explain that. The only explanation that you can
Speaker 5: have for that is that this was something they didn't
Speaker 5: want to investigate. Again, that would be all right if
Speaker 5: the crime got solved, if you could look at it
Speaker 5: and say, well, you know, the mother did do it. Finally,
Speaker 5: so we all know that we don't know anything. The
Speaker 5: reason we don't know anything is that this has never
Speaker 5: been properly investigated. And so I can tell you that
Speaker 5: there are people out there now, millions or people who
Speaker 5: worked in law enforcement before, who are still conducting an
Speaker 5: investigation into this, and some of them are very good
Speaker 5: so the case is not over. This is not the
Speaker 5: end of the road. If there's a DNA match from
Speaker 5: those samples that hits the National data Bank called codis coodis,
Speaker 5: if you get a hit on that, then you've got
Speaker 5: a perpetrator. So it's not over. It's a it's a
Speaker 5: terribly difficult situation, I think because there are people in
Speaker 5: power who don't want it to be solved. And ask
Speaker 5: yourself why, I mean, it's a very good question. So
Speaker 5: that's where things stand right now. You know, there may
Speaker 5: be other chapters, and you said you will update so obviously,
Speaker 5: well that's why the book was brought out as an
Speaker 5: ebook and self published because now if there are developments,
Speaker 5: you know, we can update it as it goes along
Speaker 5: and you know, bring it right into the present. So
Speaker 5: I'm hoping very much that there will be new development
Speaker 5: and that you know, we'll do another show sometime where
Speaker 5: we actually have more information. You know, we need to solve.
Speaker 6: This case, absolutely, and I think people demand that, Like
Speaker 6: I said, not just the people of Boulder or a
Speaker 6: surrounding area, but citizens want to see a resolve to this.
Speaker 6: And thank you very much for this investigation, and then
Speaker 6: this a fascinating book called Presume Guilty and Investigation of
Speaker 6: the John Bennet Ramsay Case, the Media and the culture
Speaker 6: of pornography. Thank you very much, Stephen Singlar for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about this this evening.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Dan, I really appreciate you giving
Speaker 5: me an opportunity to talk about it well.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Stephen, and I hope to talk to you
Speaker 6: real soon about this particular case. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Good night, thank you, good night, Oh, good night, Okay.