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No purchase necessary BOID We're prohibited by law. 50 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:06.719 Terms and conditions of playing see website for details. 51 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.960 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 52 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:19.080 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 53 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:26.439 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 54 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 55 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 56 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:53.080 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. The twentieth anniversary 57 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:55.960 of the death of John Benet Ramsay is in December 58 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:01.520 twenty sixteen. Stephen Singulars ninety nine book about the murder 59 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.479 of John Benay explored the realm of child exploitation and 60 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:08.520 its connection to the crime. In August twenty sixteen, Singular 61 00:03:08.599 --> 00:03:12.960 released an updated edition of Presumed Guilty. Investigation of the 62 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.280 John Beiney Ramsey Case, The Media and the Culture of 63 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:20.080 Pornography on Amazon Kindle. It examines why the case still 64 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.680 has him been solved and the most important developments over 65 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.000 the past seventeen years. Stephen will be interviewed by Sharp 66 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:31.080 Entertainment for a lifetime documentary on the murder to be 67 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:35.680 aired on Saturday evening, November five, twenty sixteen. This program 68 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:39.639 will immediately follow a lifetime docudrama on the case. The 69 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.960 nineteen ninety nine examination of the John Benet Ramsey case 70 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.919 was the only book to suggest something other than the 71 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.400 two conventional scenarios that one of the Ramseys killed the 72 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:54.639 child or an intruder did it. Presumed Guilty broaden the 73 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:59.280 discussion to include the involvement of child pornography child exploitation 74 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.000 surround the murder. The case remains a world class conundrum. 75 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.759 The murder of John Benet is the only example in 76 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:09.599 the annals of American homicide where a body and a 77 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:12.560 ransom note were found in the same location. In the 78 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.960 world of true crime, there is absolute truth and there 79 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.000 is effective truth. 80 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.600 Since nineteen ninety nine, enough has happened to give us 81 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:22.639 at a much fuller sense of the effective truth of 82 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:26.680 John Benay's death and a much clearer idea why the 83 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:29.920 case hasn't been solved. The book that we're featuring this 84 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.800 evening is Presumed Guilty, An investigation of the John Benet 85 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.160 Ramsey Case, the media, and the culture of pornography, with 86 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.120 my special guests, journalist and author Stephen Singular, Welcome back 87 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:43.920 to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing 88 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:47.680 to this interview. Stephen Singular, thank you very much for 89 00:04:47.720 --> 00:04:53.240 having me. Dan. Thank you. This is of course on 90 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:58.879 everyone's mind. It captivated the world back in nineteen ninety six, 91 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.480 and it seems to have done it again on the 92 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:08.759 twentieth anniversary, with every television station, network, news magazine, everybody 93 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:13.399 included in this. But you were there back at that time, 94 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:16.920 and you brought us this book, Presumed Guilty, and now 95 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:21.639 the new edition. I just spoke to you briefly before 96 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.319 the program, and I alluded to it in the introduction. 97 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.079 Tell us just a little bit again. You had mentioned 98 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.399 that it wasn't so good for you, But tell us 99 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.319 just a little bit before we get right into Presume Guilty. 100 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.879 About that interview that I had mentioned in the introduction. 101 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:40.399 Well, Lifetime did a docu drama, as you say, and 102 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:45.800 then it was followed by a two hour actual documentary 103 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.720 on the case. And there were a few scientific things 104 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.879 in that show that I thought were very good that 105 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:56.600 we might touch upon later, But the real thrust of 106 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.279 it was that it was about Patsy Ramsey and was 107 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:05.160 she a killer or a victim? And my whole involvement 108 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:07.360 in this case has been to try and widen it 109 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:11.439 beyond the Ramsey family and beyond the intruder theory. So 110 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:15.000 from my point of view, there was very little new 111 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:20.319 information in that realm that came out of it, and 112 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.639 it didn't. I think there's a bigger story here that 113 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.240 hasn't been talked about very much. Almost all of these shows, 114 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:29.759 and we've seen, you know, one rite after the other 115 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:34.360 since early September, has basically focused on this paradigm that 116 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.720 everyone knows either Ramseys did it or an intruder came 117 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:40.920 in the house and did it. And I suggested in 118 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.199 the book in nineteen ninety nine that there's a whole 119 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:47.000 lot of space in between those two things, that it 120 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:51.279 doesn't have to be an either or a situation. And 121 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:54.040 I took quite a bit of heat for that when 122 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.759 I did it, and in trying to talk about the 123 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.160 child pornography sort of the underbelly of the child beauty 124 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.560 paget circuit and all of that. The book came out 125 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.639 in nineteen ninety nine. Just so people know, I was 126 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:11.360 on an MSNBC show not long after it came out 127 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:14.600 in the summer of ninety nine and I was at 128 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:16.920 a studio in Denver. There was somebody else in Denver 129 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.279 who was at another studio who was a columnist for 130 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:22.759 the Denver Post, and he picked up the book and 131 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:26.079 dropped it into a trash can on live national television. 132 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.279 That I'm not saying that to illicit sympathy. That didn't 133 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.199 make any difference to me, But it shows you how 134 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.199 difficult back then and to some extent today it has 135 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:41.240 been for people even to consider an alternative idea. And 136 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.160 this is an unsolved case, you know, it's not like 137 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.160 we have the answers in front of us. So that's 138 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:52.000 just an indication of the difficulty is sort of trying 139 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:54.839 to break through the facade of this case and get 140 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:55.920 underneath the surface. 141 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:01.079 Now you talk about early in the book, since nineteen 142 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.360 ninety seven, yourself and your wife Joyce have been just 143 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:08.879 one piece of a civilian murder investigation that's reached across 144 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:15.040 America and countless people involved. Why has there been this 145 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.040 incredible civilian murder investigation? 146 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.120 Well, I think, of course, the rise of the Internet 147 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:27.040 fed that, where you could have everyone linked through that 148 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.600 and much of the evidence, or at least pieces of 149 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.720 the evidence could come out into the public realm, and 150 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.480 starting right in nineteen ninety seven, people were creating websites 151 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:42.080 around this, and as the case continued not to be solved, 152 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:46.279 you know, there was more and more impetus to get 153 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.919 more information out there, maybe help law enforcement, or try 154 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.240 to do something to penetrate this case. I mean, after all, 155 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.960 to repeat myself, it's twenty years later, and in many 156 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.840 ways the case, the case itself has never advanced one inch. 157 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.600 Now there are developments around it that have advanced or 158 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:09.759 should have advanced it, but it's just built for people 159 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.720 to explore and to get involved in and to offer 160 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:15.159 up their theories and to do all those things. We've 161 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:19.039 been contacted by people from Oregon to Florida, to New 162 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:22.679 York to Texas, I mean, and it's there's just and 163 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:28.960 internationally Australia, Europe. So yeah, there is interest in trying 164 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:30.159 to figure out what happened. 165 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.360 Now throughout this book, unlike some true crime books or 166 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.200 most true crime books, you are inextricably involved throughout this 167 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:47.039 entire book, speaking with private investigators, police, the DA Hunter, 168 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:54.759 the New DA Garnet afterwards, so literally friends of John, 169 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:59.840 Benny Ramsey and Patsy and Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey. 170 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:08.720 So this incredible access. With that in mind, what is 171 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:12.440 the when you talk about that gap in between the 172 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:17.720 two scenarios. Let's go back right to that December twenty 173 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.600 sixth as you do to explain what was going on 174 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:26.440 between with the scenario of the Boulder Police, the Denver 175 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:33.399 Police Department, the FBI, everybody involved here. That created a 176 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:37.159 compromised situation right from the very beginning as you talk 177 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.559 about talk about December twenty sixth, but also talk about 178 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:45.759 the reality of the situation with the police department, the FBI, 179 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:49.320 Denver Police, and the DA all at the same time. 180 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.840 Well, it was December twenty sixth, and so that means 181 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.440 that it was the holiday season. The Boulder Police Department 182 00:10:57.480 --> 00:11:01.039 was understaffed. They get about one murder year in Boulder, 183 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.840 and as police departments will tell you in larger cities, 184 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:08.240 if you don't do homicides very often, you don't do 185 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:12.159 them very well or kidnappings. Boulder had never seen a 186 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:16.279 case like this that occurred on December twenty sixth, So 187 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.159 there weren't as many people there to work it. And 188 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.399 everyone knows that mistakes were made at the very beginning 189 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:27.320 the most outstanding mistake to me is and I felt 190 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:30.720 that again watching the Lifetime show on Saturday, was that 191 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.120 the police searched the house initially, which is what you're 192 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.200 supposed to do. Why they would not have gone into 193 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.159 every room is an absolute mystery to me, because they 194 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:43.000 did not go into the so called wine cellar in 195 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:45.879 the basement where the body was found about six or 196 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:50.440 seven hours later. So you know, if that had happened, 197 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:55.159 you would have had a much more pristine situation there. 198 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:58.399 In terms of evidence. People are calling it a crime scene. 199 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.279 I'm not going to use that for reasons it might 200 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.720 become clear later on, but so that was one angle 201 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.399 of it. The district Attorney, Alex Hunter was in Hawaii 202 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:12.000 when this happened, on vacation over the holiday season, so 203 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.159 he wasn't there to sort of help manage it, which 204 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.399 was another problem. But what to really go back to 205 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.360 what you were saying about my involvement and my wife's involvement, 206 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.840 is that in the first weeks of January nineteen ninety seven, 207 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:28.639 which is to say, a couple of weeks after the 208 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.120 body was found, we were invited to go to a 209 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:36.360 television station in Denver where a reporter had told us 210 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:39.440 that a hacker was going to be doing some things 211 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.320 on a computer that evening, and so we went there. 212 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.159 And everyone has to remember this is early nineteen ninety seven. 213 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:52.519 The Internet is quite young. It's very young in terms 214 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.639 of law enforcements, sort of understanding how crimes would be 215 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:01.600 committed using the Internet, all kinds of crime. So what 216 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.320 we saw that evening was absolutely shocking. This guy took 217 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:10.759 us into child pornography sites, sites where there were video 218 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:15.000 and stills of children who were tied up, children who 219 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:19.519 had things around their wrists, around their necks. As we 220 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:23.159 know when you look at the crime scene with John Manay, 221 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.120 that's exactly what you saw. You saw something around her 222 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.200 neck and her wrist. You saw that she had been strangled, 223 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:35.000 and this was by far the most evocative thing visually 224 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.240 that connected to the crime. And then you had the 225 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.360 realization that all of these people who were engaged in 226 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.519 these activities were hooked up with one another via the Internet. 227 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:49.840 So the chances of getting caught doing it and all 228 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:54.240 of that that had been relevant to child pornography investigations 229 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.639 earlier didn't apply in this realm. The band doing the 230 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.639 hacking typed in the word John Benet. There was a 231 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.120 feeding frenzy of people just pouring in saying, I want 232 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:08.120 pictures of her, I want pictures of her that are 233 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:11.759 nude or riskuay, I want pictures of her when she's dead, 234 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.120 I mean. And it was absolutely a revelation to me 235 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.759 because I didn't know all of these things that were 236 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.720 going on. And these were kids, girls who were five, six, 237 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:25.440 seven years old, the same age as John Manett. So 238 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:28.720 you sort of file that away and go wealth would 239 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:33.200 there be any connection whatsoever between this death and Boulder 240 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:39.840 and this kind of exploitation through visual images. I just 241 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.200 sort of let it ride, you know, right there. But 242 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.799 we began talking to pageant mothers at that in this 243 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.320 area right after that, and they told us the same 244 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:52.240 story over and over again. And the story was about 245 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:57.960 John Benet's primary pageant photographer, who they all knew well, 246 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.960 they all had long standing relationship with, and they all 247 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.200 thought he was a good guy. In the aftermath of 248 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.279 the murder, he called them all up in the middle 249 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:09.200 of the night. He was screaming, he was crying, he 250 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.559 was saying, I did not kill John Benet. I did 251 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.759 not kill John Binet. And nobody could figure out why 252 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.480 he was behaving this way, because you know, he wasn't 253 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:23.759 being looked at as a suspect. So we gathered information 254 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:27.480 from the pageant mothers who told us that these pageants 255 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:32.919 did draw in shady characters. There were judges, there were photographers, 256 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.919 there were others who were considered dangerous and they should 257 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.679 not be there, and in various cases they were told 258 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.360 to leave the premises. I mean, it is sort of 259 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.799 a natural magnet for people who are interested in that 260 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.360 sort of thing. So we had gathered quite a lot 261 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.279 of information, and one hundred days went by there wasn't 262 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:57.679 arrest in the case. Every week, every day on talk radio, 263 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:00.240 there will be an arrest today, one of the Ramsy'll 264 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:06.200 be arrested. Nothing happened. So I had observed Alex Hunter, 265 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:11.240 the district attorney, through his various television appearances and all that, 266 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.200 and I thought he seemed like an interesting man, like 267 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:19.240 thoughtful and not exactly the image of the hard nosed 268 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:23.639 district attorney. So I decided to call him and we 269 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.200 had a conversation and he said, come on into my 270 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.399 office and let's discuss all of this. So I told 271 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.960 him the story that I've just laid out here, and 272 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:39.840 I think he was very taken with it and realized 273 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:44.399 that the Bolder police, as most everyone knows, were fixated 274 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.480 right on the Ramsey family and there was this much broader, 275 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:52.799 potential criminal area around the child that really wasn't being 276 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.159 looked at. He didn't know anything about this photographer, he 277 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.519 didn't know what the pageant others were saying. He was 278 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.639 unaware of that whole thing, and the Boulder police had 279 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.640 not really looked into it either. So that was really 280 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:11.880 the starting place of basically asking the question, is this 281 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.319 case about something more than a mother killing her child 282 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:16.559 because she wets the bed. 283 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:20.880 Let's go back just a little bit and we'll come 284 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.799 back to the more to a further examination of this 285 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:30.240 child porn angle and the examinations you do by investigating 286 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:34.319 numerous photographers and other people involved with the pageants themselves. 287 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.519 But let's talk about the crime scene itself, because I 288 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.799 think a lot of people are really confused as to 289 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.480 how you've come to this. If we don't explain this, 290 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.880 how you come to this conclusion of this third scenario 291 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.359 where it can't it doesn't have to be that the 292 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.720 Ramseys were completely guilty, and it doesn't have to be 293 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.559 that the intruder was completely guilty without the Ramseys being 294 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.200 with the Ramsays being completely innocent. So tell us what 295 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.599 exactly was found at that crime scene that also led 296 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:11.519 you alluded to a little bit in that terms of 297 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.960 the photos that you saw that were related and connected. 298 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.799 It seemed to the kind the kind of staging that 299 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:19.920 John Benay had been posed under. 300 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:26.680 So you look at the crime scene itself, there's duct 301 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.519 tape on the girl's mouth. It cannot be sourced to 302 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.680 anything in the house. There's fiber evidence on the body 303 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.519 that can't be sourced to anything in the house. The 304 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.079 material in the garage, with the exception of the little 305 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:43.599 wooden handle, can't be sourced. That's a nylon type of twine, 306 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.039 can't be sourced to anything in the house. And then 307 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:51.359 the stun gun marks on her neck which became are 308 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:54.799 very evident. There are pictures of her taken about four 309 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.200 o'clock in the afternoon on Christmas Day where she's sitting 310 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.720 in her living room and you have a very clear 311 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.599 view of that side of her neck. And then if 312 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.039 you look at the autopsy photo which was taken the 313 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.960 following day, there are two very prominent burn marks that 314 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.160 people who know a lot more about this than I 315 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:17.480 do have identified as the result of a stun gun. 316 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.599 There's no sourcing of a stun gun in the house. 317 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.640 And then you get to the DNA evidence, which has 318 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.680 taken a long time to develop in his historian and 319 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:31.680 of itself. The one piece of information that came out 320 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:34.000 of the Lifetime show in a very clear way for 321 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:40.000 me was that we know that there was DNA left 322 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.880 in the child's pants and that and that there are 323 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:50.160 a couple of samples of that. The argument against that 324 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:55.680 is that is that belonging to the perpetrator, is that 325 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.799 that could have just come there in the manufacturing of 326 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:02.880 the underpants. Some worker in Asia just leaves their DNA 327 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.000 in there and then you find it. So that's been 328 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:09.240 kicked around a lot with the development of what they 329 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:13.960 call touch DNA, which is a much more sophisticated form 330 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.359 of DNA, which has been developed more in this you know, 331 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:22.440 after two thousand, the articles of clothing were sent to 332 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.759 what's called the Bode Laboratory and using touch DNA, they 333 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:32.279 they reason that if you took off the child's long 334 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.960 John's not are underpants but are long johns, that there 335 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.720 would be something left around the you know, the seam 336 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.680 of the Long Johns on the child. So they look 337 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:49.279 there and they found several examples of the same DNA 338 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:54.519 that DNA matches what's in the underpants. The two things 339 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:59.599 were manufactured in different locations. It's all consistent coming from 340 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:05.319 one unidentified male source. I would suggest that's the extremely 341 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:09.200 strong evidence of the person who was involved with the 342 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.079 child that night. And we don't know who it belongs to, 343 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.720 so the perpetrator is unknown. But for me, it was 344 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:19.119 a very clear explanation that you can't simply explain away 345 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.240 all of this matching DNA from a manufacturing process, and 346 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:27.119 I thought that was very important. So that's the crime 347 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:30.319 scene that you're looking at. You have a number of 348 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.400 things that cannot be tied to anything that's in that house. 349 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:40.559 Then you have, you know, the ransom note. And the 350 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.400 question I always had was, well, if an intruder did it, 351 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.119 very basic question, why would you leave a body and 352 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.920 a ransom note? It just it doesn't make any sense. 353 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.240 I mean, you'd leave the ransom note and take the kid, 354 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.480 or you know, if you're going to kill a kid, 355 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.319 you probably wouldn't leave a three page note. So on 356 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.759 the surface told me is that this is a more 357 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:07.039 complex case than it's generally being looked at. So, I mean, 358 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:12.480 that's the sort of evidentiary part of it that the 359 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.920 police and the District Attorney's office were confronted with right 360 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.960 from the beginning, and that plays out, you know, as 361 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.079 the case goes along. 362 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.279 I may be jumping ahead a little bit, but what 363 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.480 I thought was very, very very interesting to me is 364 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.680 that there's been so much speculation about this ransom note, 365 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.319 and maybe we should talk about the contents of that 366 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.640 ransom note. But what I found fascinating was that you 367 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.960 state that about some of the contents or one crucial content, 368 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.880 that being that one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus. 369 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.000 And again you're not I'm going to ask you if 370 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.799 you conclude something from that in that Patsy Ramsey did 371 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:54.920 not know of that one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus. 372 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.519 So could you tell us about the content of the 373 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.640 ransom note something? I mean, I brought it all kinds 374 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:02.920 of handwriting analysis for. 375 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.119 This, so I yeah, and when and again on the 376 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:09.599 Lifetime show when they showed her handwriting compared to the 377 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:13.720 writing on the note it really did not look all 378 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.519 that similar, and an expert on there said that here's 379 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.039 here's the basic thing that I'm suggesting, and to go 380 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.160 back to nineteen ninety six through nineteen ninety nine, when 381 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.119 we were doing this research and involved primarily with the 382 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.200 District Attorney's office, but also with private investigators in a 383 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:38.000 little bit with the police department. I was suggesting, and 384 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.960 I think I'm the only person who was suggesting that 385 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:46.279 there is something in between the Ramseys being totally guilty 386 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:51.000 and or the Ramseys being totally innocent because an intruder 387 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:56.200 did this not a popular opinion at that time in 388 00:23:56.319 --> 00:24:00.720 nineteen ninety nine. In nineteen ninety eight, Alex Hunter asked 389 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.240 a grand jury to sit down and look at all 390 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.720 of the evidence in hear testimony. The grand jury sat 391 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:10.400 for thirteen months. That is an incredibly long period of 392 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.920 time for a grand jury to do this kind of work. 393 00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:16.799 It's usually three or four days, you indict somebody and 394 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.759 you move on to the next thing. So that alone 395 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:25.200 was extraordinary. After the thirteen months, Alex Hunter came out 396 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.240 and said, I'm not going to indict anybody, and I'm 397 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.839 going to seal the eighteen page document that the grand 398 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:38.599 jury produced, so we didn't know what was in those 399 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:44.279 eighteen pages going forward. And my assumption, and I was 400 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:47.599 rather sympathetic to Alex Hunter. I dealt with him quite 401 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.039