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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. The FBI's pioneer of criminal profiling, former Special
Speaker 6: Agent John Douglas, has studied and interviewed many of America's
Speaker 6: most notorious killers, including Manson, Son of Sam, killer David Berkowitz,
Speaker 6: and BTK strangler. Dennis Rader's trained FBI agents investigators around
Speaker 6: the world and helped educate the country about these deadly
Speaker 6: predators and how they operate, and has become a legend
Speaker 6: in popular culture, fictionalized in the Silence of the Lambs
Speaker 6: and the hit television shows Criminal Minds and mind Hunter.
Speaker 6: Twenty years after his famous memoir, the man who literally
Speaker 6: wrote the book on FBI criminal profiling opens his case
Speaker 6: files once again. In this rivetting work of true crime,
Speaker 6: he spotlights four of the most diabolical criminals he's confronted, interviewed,
Speaker 6: and learned from going deep into each man's life and crimes.
Speaker 6: He outlines the factors that led them to murder and
Speaker 6: how he used his interrogation skills to expose their means, motives,
Speaker 6: and true evil. Like the hit Netflix show, The Killer
Speaker 6: Across the Table is centered around Douglas's unique interrogation and
Speaker 6: profiling process with his longtime collaborator Mark Olshaker. Douglas recounts
Speaker 6: the chilling encounters with these four killers as he experienced them,
Speaker 6: revealing for the first time his profile methods in detail,
Speaker 6: a glimpse into the mind of a man who has
Speaker 6: pierced the heart of human darkness. The Killer Across the
Speaker 6: Table unlocks the ultimate mystery of depravity and the techniques
Speaker 6: and approaches that have countered evil in the name of justice.
Speaker 6: The book that we're featuring this evening is The Killer
Speaker 6: Across the Table, Unlocking the secrets of serial killers and
Speaker 6: predators with the FBI's original Mindhunter, with my special guest
Speaker 6: journalist and author Mark Ohlshaker. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 6: thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Mark
Speaker 6: Olshaker and thank you for having me.
Speaker 7: Dan, It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much. I wanted to say too. In
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five five, you and John formed John Douglas Mindhunters, Incorporated,
Speaker 6: and then you released mind Hunter, inside the FBI's elite
Speaker 6: serial crime unit, and the Netflix series Mindhunter was made
Speaker 6: in twenty seventeen as a hit series. And today we
Speaker 6: are discussing your latest collaboration with John Douglas, The Killer
Speaker 6: across the Table. Tell us what this book is, What
Speaker 6: this book is about primarily.
Speaker 2: Well, Dan, since you mentioned mind Hunter, this really follows
Speaker 2: directly from that. The first season of mind Hunter is
Speaker 2: really about the beginning of the behavioral Profiling program, which
Speaker 2: was when John and his partner Robert Wrestler, who were
Speaker 2: tasked with going around the country and speaking to different
Speaker 2: police departments and teaching FBI investigative methods and criminal psychology.
Speaker 2: While they were around the country, John decided it would
Speaker 2: be a good idea to go into the penitentiaries and
Speaker 2: prisons and try to speak to the most dangerous of
Speaker 2: the violent predators there, the serial killers and other violent predators,
Speaker 2: and see.
Speaker 7: What he could find out and what they did.
Speaker 2: After going through this process was to be able to
Speaker 2: correlate for the first time what was going on in
Speaker 2: the offender's mind for during and after the offense, to
Speaker 2: correlate that with the evidence left at the crime scene,
Speaker 2: forensic evidence, behavioral evidence, scientific evidence eventually DNA and things
Speaker 2: like that, and that these interviews are really what led
Speaker 2: to the modern discipline of criminal profiling and criminal investigative
Speaker 2: analysis as the FBI practices it. So what we decided
Speaker 2: to do in this book is for the first time
Speaker 2: take a deep dive into this interviewing process to show
Speaker 2: exactly how it was done, what the beats are, what
Speaker 2: the techniques are, how John got these people to open
Speaker 2: up about what was really going on in their minds.
Speaker 2: And while we do talk about his encounters with the
Speaker 2: famous ones, with the Ted Bundyes, with the David Berkowitz,
Speaker 2: the son of Sam, with Ed Kemper, the co ed
Speaker 2: killer who was featured prominently in the first series of
Speaker 2: first season of Mind Hunter, and others like that Charlie Manson,
Speaker 2: for instance, what we did primarily in this book was
Speaker 2: to take four cases, four violent predators who John has encountered,
Speaker 2: and to really show what the encounter was all about
Speaker 2: how these people's minds work and what the outcome was. Now,
Speaker 2: most people will not know these cases. They're not as
Speaker 2: well publicized, So that allows the reader to approach them objectively,
Speaker 2: without any preconceived biases, and for us to essentially use
Speaker 2: the great thriller technique of letting the reader find out
Speaker 2: for him or herself what happens next.
Speaker 6: Now, you talked about some of the pioneering techniques that
Speaker 6: he used to for the very very important, crucial interview.
Speaker 6: Tell us about some of the things that right from
Speaker 6: the beginning they used and learned to set up an
Speaker 6: interview so that it'll be more effective.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a very interesting question, Dan, because the first
Speaker 2: thing they realized was that they couldn't really tape them,
Speaker 2: to record them or to take notes, because these guys
Speaker 2: tend to be these criminals in prison tend to be
Speaker 2: very paranoid, and anything that you do to encourage that
Speaker 2: behavior is going to take away from the candidness of
Speaker 2: the interview. So what they realized was they better just
Speaker 2: go in without a tape recorder, without notes, and talk extensively,
Speaker 2: and when I say extensively, I mean hours at a
Speaker 2: time to these predators knowing everything about the case so
Speaker 2: that they couldn't be snowed or fooled.
Speaker 7: And then as soon as they.
Speaker 2: Got out of the interview, they would refer to a
Speaker 2: fifty six page written document what they called the assessment Protocol,
Speaker 2: and they would write down all the answers to all
Speaker 2: the questions in that before they forgot them. And then
Speaker 2: these protocols were all correlated, eventually into a major study
Speaker 2: which in turn led to a book, an academic book
Speaker 2: called Sexual Homicide Patterns and Motives, and then eventually to
Speaker 2: the Crime Classification Manual, which is a systematized approach to
Speaker 2: violent crime. Now there were different techniques for different people,
Speaker 2: and somebody like Charlie Manson, who was very short and diminutive,
Speaker 2: he as soon as they got into the prison with him,
Speaker 2: he climbed up on the back of the chair so
Speaker 2: that he could lord over these two FBI agents and
Speaker 2: they let him do it. Sometimes they would position the
Speaker 2: offender looking out a window, sometimes away from it, depending
Speaker 2: on his personality, always with the same goal, which is
Speaker 2: to get as much information about what really happened, what
Speaker 2: was really going on in the minds of the killers
Speaker 2: or the predators as they were committing the crime, as
Speaker 2: well as what they were thinking before and how they
Speaker 2: reacted afterwards.
Speaker 6: You cite the four examples of Joseph McGowan and Donald Harvey,
Speaker 6: Todd Cole Hep and Joseph Condro. What was it about
Speaker 6: Let's start with, as you do in the book, talk
Speaker 6: about Joseph McGowan. What was it about the Joseph McGowan
Speaker 6: case that interested John Douglass in the first place? And
Speaker 6: was there any other reason why he was involved.
Speaker 7: With this shot?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the reason he was involved is
Speaker 2: in this case, all of these encounters that we talk
Speaker 2: about now happened after John retired from the FBI, so
Speaker 2: he was actually much freer to do whatever he wanted.
Speaker 2: He wasn't constrained by any FBI protocols m In McGowan's case,
Speaker 2: John was called by the chairman of the New Jersey
Speaker 2: State Parole Board and asked to interview this individual and
Speaker 2: see whether he was a proper candidate for parole. Now,
Speaker 2: what was very interesting about Joseph McGowan, What was very macabre?
Speaker 2: He was a high school science teacher in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: He had a master's degree. He was very well respected.
Speaker 2: In other words, he was not a marginal character. He
Speaker 2: was someone who was totally invested in the system, if
Speaker 2: you will.
Speaker 7: And what he did was.
Speaker 2: He killed, he assaulted, brutalized, and murdered a seven year
Speaker 2: old young lady, a girl who had come to his
Speaker 2: house to collect two dollars from an order he had
Speaker 2: made for Girl Scout cookies. She was a Brownie, she
Speaker 2: lived around the corner from him. As soon as he
Speaker 2: and he told John, after John took him through hours
Speaker 2: of interviews and got him to relive, to go back
Speaker 2: into this one time and place, he said, John. As
Speaker 2: soon as she rang the doorbell and I saw who
Speaker 2: it was through the screen door, I knew I was
Speaker 2: going to kill her. Now, what makes somebody who is
Speaker 2: totally invested in the system, who was respected, who has students,
Speaker 2: who lives in a nice house, what makes him give
Speaker 2: up everything to kill a totally innocent, beautiful child like this?
Speaker 2: This was really important to know. The next case, Joseph
Speaker 2: Condro was not quite so invested in the system. He
Speaker 2: was kind of a ne're dwell on the fringes of society,
Speaker 2: and he raped and murdered young girls, young teenage girls.
Speaker 2: Now what's interesting and completely chilling about his case is
Speaker 2: he didn't murder strangers. He chose the daughters of friends
Speaker 2: of his. Why because he felt it would be easier
Speaker 2: to get to them, because they would go with him willingly.
Speaker 2: He had already established a trust relationship with them, which
Speaker 2: of course he completely violated. And he thought he was
Speaker 2: so close to the situation that no one would suspect him.
Speaker 2: That was his particular perversion and mo then on the
Speaker 2: third case, Donald Harvey.
Speaker 7: We think of people like.
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy as the most prolific serial killers in American history,
Speaker 2: people like Bundy who cut a swath of destruction and
Speaker 2: murder from Seattle all the way down to Florida. And
Speaker 2: in fact, as horrible as people like Bundy are, Donald
Speaker 2: Harvey was probably the most prolific serial killer in American history.
Speaker 7: Why what did he do?
Speaker 2: He was a nurse's aide and an orderly in a
Speaker 2: series of hospitals he probably killed. We'll never know for sure,
Speaker 2: but he probably killed close to one hundred people over
Speaker 2: a seventeen year period before anyone realized a murder had
Speaker 2: taken place. These are considered natural debts, and yet he
Speaker 2: was causing them in hospitals. He was there as victims
Speaker 2: were there. He didn't have to hunt, he didn't have
Speaker 2: to be predatory in the sense that most of them do.
Speaker 2: People were looking right through him. And then we finish
Speaker 2: up with a man named Todd coleheb a successful real
Speaker 2: estate broker in South Carolina. He drove fancy sports cars,
Speaker 2: he had an airplane, he had a whole staff of
Speaker 2: people working for him, and he'd also killed seven people.
Speaker 2: The only reason he was found out was because you
Speaker 2: may remember this case from a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2: Sheriff's deputies discovered a young woman who he had kept
Speaker 2: chained up in a shipping container, large shipping container as
Speaker 2: you would see on a boat, in his rural property
Speaker 2: in South Carolina. He'd kept her there chained up for
Speaker 2: six weeks. Everyone assumed that she was a sex slave
Speaker 2: for him. In fact, that was not the case.
Speaker 7: The case was.
Speaker 2: He had killed her boyfriend and she had witnessed it,
Speaker 2: and he didn't really know what to do with her,
Speaker 2: so he just kept her trying to figure it out. So,
Speaker 2: what makes all of these guys tick, and they're almost
Speaker 2: always guys, by the way, what makes them tick? That's
Speaker 2: what we needed to know. That's why this book is important.
Speaker 2: This is about the human condition at the real extreme.
Speaker 6: Stand now with each one of these cases. Let's go
Speaker 6: back to Joseph McGowan. Sure, John employs many techniques as well.
Speaker 6: To start, and you explain as well that going into
Speaker 6: this he originally he thought when they have preconceptions in
Speaker 6: the beginning of criminal profiling, they thought that a lot
Speaker 6: of inmates might not want to talk to them. In fact,
Speaker 6: many of these did. In fact, it was the opposite
Speaker 6: of that. Why would Joseph McGowan talk to him. We
Speaker 6: know that he's up for parole. There's a felony, first
Speaker 6: degree felony murder, so it means that he was up
Speaker 6: for parole after fourteen years. So there was a couple
Speaker 6: of one parole hearing where he was denied in the
Speaker 6: second parole hearing, and then John came into the picture
Speaker 6: to inform that parole board after interviewing him. Explain a
Speaker 6: little bit more about how important John was in this
Speaker 6: parole process.
Speaker 2: Well, he was crucial as it turned out. Dan, Yes,
Speaker 2: I think there's different motivations for the killers to speak.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they're bored, they don't get a lot of most
Speaker 2: killers don't get a lot of visitors. Sometimes they think
Speaker 2: it will increase their stature with the prison, with the
Speaker 2: prison staff. Sometimes they think it will help with their
Speaker 2: parole chances. Sometimes they just want to relive their crimes.
Speaker 2: A lot of these people live by fantasy and that's
Speaker 2: what they want to do. And in some cases they
Speaker 2: just think it's a battle of wits and they can
Speaker 2: out with an FBI agent or.
Speaker 7: A FED Now.
Speaker 2: In McGowan's case, he really thought this was going to
Speaker 2: help with his parole chance. And what he didn't realize
Speaker 2: was and John came into the case, I have to say,
Speaker 2: totally objective. He didn't know whether this individual should be
Speaker 2: parolled or not. But one thing that McGowan and some
Speaker 2: of these others don't realize is that when John goes
Speaker 2: in to interview one of these people, he goes in
Speaker 2: totally prepared. He knows every aspect of the case. He's
Speaker 2: gone completely through the case files, he's gone completely through
Speaker 2: the autopsy photographs, the autopsy protocols. He knows everything about
Speaker 2: the case. So that these people can't snow him, they
Speaker 2: can't be self serving. He gets to what's really going on,
Speaker 2: and he's also very patient and tries not to be judgmental,
Speaker 2: at least overtly judgmental. He wants these people to tell
Speaker 2: their own stories in their own way. So in the
Speaker 2: case of McGowan, he went through hours of interviewing until
Speaker 2: McGowan finally felt comfortable enough and was unguarded enough so
Speaker 2: he would tell what really happened. It's almost like this
Speaker 2: is your life kind of television program. He got McGowan
Speaker 2: to go back to relive what had happened more than
Speaker 2: twenty years before. He said, tell me what happened. Tell
Speaker 2: me what was going on when this little girl approached
Speaker 2: your steps, And he got McGowan to tell him. And
Speaker 2: he also got mcgallen to explain to him that he
Speaker 2: was often acting out of rage. He called it red
Speaker 2: rage and white rage, and red rage he said he
Speaker 2: could control if he had to, but when it was
Speaker 2: white rage that controlled him. And in the case of
Speaker 2: seeing this little girl, when he was already upset about
Speaker 2: other things, which we go into in the book and
Speaker 2: we really uncover the mystery of why he killed this girl.
Speaker 2: But when white rage took hold of him, he couldn't
Speaker 2: control it anymore. And what John really talking to him
Speaker 2: and what he was then presented before the parole board
Speaker 2: was McGowan might get out of prison and he would
Speaker 2: be okay for a while, but then when he got
Speaker 2: into a situation where the white rage took hold of him,
Speaker 2: he would still be a very dangerous individual. And that's
Speaker 2: why he recommended that McGowan not be paroled, and McGowan
Speaker 2: remains in prison to this day.
Speaker 6: You spoke about that he really broke down. He had
Speaker 6: been examined by many other psychiatrists and other personnel, and
Speaker 6: yet John broke through and got to much more. And
Speaker 6: that's his goals, to get to the actual truth. So
Speaker 6: many things he didn't believe based on his experience, and
Speaker 6: he broke through with that. Well, I thought was fascinating
Speaker 6: was the even though this seemed like a very very
Speaker 6: bright parole board, that he still John had some emphatically
Speaker 6: told them some big lessons about what he had learned,
Speaker 6: especially concerning McGowan, but also just about perpetrators in general.
Speaker 6: Tell us about that, well, you know, that's.
Speaker 2: A very interesting subject you bring up, Dan, because what
Speaker 2: John will say is, you know, he is like a specialist.
Speaker 2: Other doctors might see ordinary things, but if you have
Speaker 2: a rare or unusual condition, you have to go to
Speaker 2: a specialist who sees this kind of stuff all the time,
Speaker 2: and that's what John is. John sees the predators, he
Speaker 2: sees the worst of the worst from all over, and
Speaker 2: he's an expert in that. Many times, when these people
Speaker 2: are examined by psychologists or psychiatrists, they don't really know
Speaker 2: how to deal with these people because they don't have
Speaker 2: that kind of experience. I mean, when most of us
Speaker 2: go to a therapist, it's because we don't feel well,
Speaker 2: we don't like what we're thinking, we have anxiety or depression,
Speaker 2: and so it's to our advantage to tell the truth
Speaker 2: and tell the doctor the therapist how we're really feeling.
Speaker 2: That's not the case all the time with incarcerated criminals.
Speaker 2: They want to get out, that's what their job is,
Speaker 2: so they don't want to tell the truth. They want
Speaker 2: to tell whatever sounds best. And we have many cases
Speaker 2: of individuals being able to fool psychiatrists who are thinking
Speaker 2: the best about people. One of the major cases that
Speaker 2: was featured in the first season of mind Hunter on
Speaker 2: Netflix is the case of Ed Kemper, the so called
Speaker 2: co ed killer. He was on parole and under supervision
Speaker 2: for having killed his grandparents when he was a teenager
Speaker 2: and he had court mandated appointments with a psychologist or
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist. One time he had a very good visit,
Speaker 2: in a very clean bill of health from the psychologist
Speaker 2: he went to see, and it just so happened that
Speaker 2: that day, in the trunk of his car which he
Speaker 2: drove to the appointment, he had the head of one
Speaker 2: of his young victims. So it's not that these people
Speaker 2: don't try, they just don't necessarily have the experience to
Speaker 2: be as skeptical as John does to have their antennas
Speaker 2: up in the same way.
Speaker 6: You cite a couple other dramatic examples, and including Arthur
Speaker 6: Shawcross as well in this which I think is important.
Speaker 2: Well, Arthur Shawcross was a man in upstate New York.
Speaker 7: He had.
Speaker 2: Raped and assaulted a young boy and a young girl.
Speaker 2: He was put in prison for fifteen to twenty five
Speaker 2: year sentence. I believe he was let out after fifteen.
Speaker 2: It turns out he just picked up where he had
Speaker 2: left off in this case, he graduated from killing children
Speaker 2: to killing prostitutes in the Rochester, New York area, prostitutes
Speaker 2: and helpless people. Now, it may seem that these are
Speaker 2: completely different victims of choice, victims of preference, but they're
Speaker 2: not really children. Prostitutes and street people and old people,
Speaker 2: elderly people have one thing in common, which is that
Speaker 2: they are all vulnerable. And sometimes that's all these predators
Speaker 2: are looking for, is the vulnerable victim.
Speaker 6: And this is part of a central part of the
Speaker 6: profiling process for jonas that he tries to look at
Speaker 6: the central motivation, not a sure somebody might look at
Speaker 6: initially as a motivation or the motivation. He goes, like
Speaker 6: you say, much deeper into finding the actual motivation, which
Speaker 6: is a surprise to a lot of people. You talk
Speaker 6: about the Joseph Chondro case and the role of an
Speaker 6: MSNBC TV producer pilot series and being the impetus for
Speaker 6: John interviewing Joseph Condro despite what the MSNBC producers wanted.
Speaker 6: What was John's intent and tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: more about why he wanted to What was interesting about
Speaker 6: Joseph Condro's case.
Speaker 2: Again, very very interesting case and really tells us a
Speaker 2: lot about the way people are all across the board.
Speaker 2: Joseph Contro, as I said, was itinerant, handyman.
Speaker 7: He had been a painter.
Speaker 2: He worked on construction. He'd been married a number of
Speaker 2: times and had a number of children with women who
Speaker 2: weren't his wife, and his predilection was to.
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Speaker 2: What everydls urder young girls and you would think that
Speaker 2: you'd look elsewhere than your own backyard essentially for these victims,
Speaker 2: but he didn't want to have to go to the
Speaker 2: trouble of trying to figure out how to get them
Speaker 2: under his control, so he focused on the children, the
Speaker 2: daughters of friends of his, and he would take them
Speaker 2: out into the woods or into other rural areas and
Speaker 2: he would commit his crimes there because this was a
Speaker 2: complete violation of trust. These girls trusted him, and so
Speaker 2: he took complete advantage of that. And it's just kind
Speaker 2: of amazing to see something like that. And what was
Speaker 2: very interesting is this interview that you mentioned with Joseph Condro,
Speaker 2: which lasted several hours, was done for a television program
Speaker 2: originally on MSNBC several years ago, and the producers, i
Speaker 2: mean the executive producers at the network were not happy
Speaker 2: with the program. What were they not happy with? They
Speaker 2: thought Joseph Condro was fine. He was, if you will,
Speaker 2: a nice, good performer on the show. What they were
Speaker 2: unhappy with was John's performance because what they really wanted
Speaker 2: was something dramatics and fireworks. They wanted him to confront Condro,
Speaker 2: almost to attack him, to show his absolute anger and revulsion.
Speaker 2: But as John pointed out, that may be good television,
Speaker 2: but that's not what helps in these situations. If you're
Speaker 2: going to react that way to one of these offenders,
Speaker 2: they're not going to open up to you, they're not
Speaker 2: going to share anything. You have to be very neutral.
Speaker 2: You have to encourage them, you have to bring them
Speaker 2: along and not be judgmental if you want to get
Speaker 2: the most out of them, and that's exactly what he did.
Speaker 2: So it's very interesting that you bring that up then,
Speaker 2: because what may be seen dramatic is not what's useful
Speaker 2: from an investigative, investigatory point of view.
Speaker 6: John also, I think, well, at least you write that
Speaker 6: he was also despite all his history and his background,
Speaker 6: he found the psychopathology of Joseph Kandro still shocking.
Speaker 2: Will say, it's pretty it is pretty shocking. I mean,
Speaker 2: how can you how can you not think so? And
Speaker 2: particularly John has two daughters of his own plus a son.
Speaker 2: And if you can just put yourself in the position
Speaker 2: of the parents and think you know nothing, you know.
Speaker 2: We say, nothing is worse than in life, perhaps than
Speaker 2: losing a child. Nothing is worse than in losing a child,
Speaker 2: than losing a child to murder. And to go one
Speaker 2: step further, nothing could be worse than losing a child
Speaker 2: to murder at the hands of somebody you trusted.
Speaker 6: I mean, don't you think, yes, absolutely, what did not
Speaker 6: to give anything away? But what was some of the breakthroughs,
Speaker 6: at least with Kndro to be able to find out
Speaker 6: the truth that was elusive to other people the deeper
Speaker 6: truth about his motivation for these murders.
Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the things was that everybody
Speaker 2: has different perceptions of risk. Most people would think that
Speaker 2: it's very risky to commit crimes around people you know,
Speaker 2: and so that kind of insight will help guide your investigation.
Speaker 2: But Condro turned the tables on this and gave John
Speaker 2: an investigators a radically different insight, which was that Condro
Speaker 2: considered it a lesser risk if he would if he
Speaker 2: would target children he knew children, young girls, young teenagers
Speaker 2: that he knew because they would not suspect him, They
Speaker 2: would not resist him until it was too late, so
Speaker 2: that he would not have to fight, He would not
Speaker 2: have to do anything that might compromise his identity in
Speaker 2: terms of an investigation. And he understood that, and he
Speaker 2: told John that the most important thing to him was
Speaker 2: get rid of the body and hide it well, because
Speaker 2: if there was no body, it was very difficult to
Speaker 2: undertake a prosecution. So what's eerie and horrible to contemplate,
Speaker 2: but very very important from an investigative point of view,
Speaker 2: is that while he was doing these completely depraved crimes,
Speaker 2: I being raping and murdering girls who he knew. At
Speaker 2: the same time, he was thinking very carefully about the
Speaker 2: crime and how to get away with it. And the
Speaker 2: other lesson we hear we get from him is that
Speaker 2: though the rest of us can't understand it, these people
Speaker 2: are completely without empathy and nobody else's feelings really matter.
Speaker 2: What was staggering to me about Kandro is after he
Speaker 2: committed one of his murders, he then comes back to
Speaker 2: town and with one of his ex wives, he goes
Speaker 2: to a parent teachers meeting for one of his children.
Speaker 2: I mean that to me is just staggering that he
Speaker 2: could kill one child and then go to a parent
Speaker 2: teachers meeting on behalf of another child.
Speaker 6: What shocked John Douglas, as I mentioned, but also shock
Speaker 6: anyone that would read this despite what kind of criminal
Speaker 6: that you read about, is that he was so close
Speaker 6: with the family, friends with the stepfather, friends with these people,
Speaker 6: let them stay at their home. He was given the
Speaker 6: secret password that this little girl had and to make
Speaker 6: sure something like this didn't happen. Is that something and
Speaker 6: so we talked about the neighbor of Joseph McGowan, and
Speaker 6: so he was familiar with that little girl. But this crime,
Speaker 6: these crimes take it to some other kind of level
Speaker 6: in terms of what he was able to do during
Speaker 6: before and then especially afterwards, joining.
Speaker 2: In y're absolutely right, You're absolutely right, Dan. And the
Speaker 2: fact that he was given the secret code word by
Speaker 2: the parents that meant to the children that the person
Speaker 2: who had this code word was safe and you could
Speaker 2: then go with him. That just seems to me the
Speaker 2: ultimate betrayal of trust, and it tells us something about
Speaker 2: the total lack of conscience that these people have, and
Speaker 2: that really helps us form the profiles of the kind
Speaker 2: of people we're dealing with. Kandro was unusual because of
Speaker 2: his choice of victims, and that was a real eye opener.
Speaker 2: In other ways, he was typical because of his total
Speaker 2: lack of empathy, his total lack of remorse, who was
Speaker 2: totally matter of fact to him, and even his dealing
Speaker 2: with the law once he was caught was completely procedural
Speaker 2: and well thought out. He essentially traded away the possibility
Speaker 2: of a death penalty by saying he would cooperate in
Speaker 2: finding some of the bodies of the children he had killed.
Speaker 2: At the same time, he told John very matter of
Speaker 2: factly that he should have been executed and that he
Speaker 2: would want anybody who did something like this to one
Speaker 2: of his kids to be executed, but at the same
Speaker 2: time he worked it out so that he wouldn't be executed.
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Speaker 6: talking about the Joseph Condro case and what John Douglas
Speaker 6: had learned from this case incredibly to add to the
Speaker 6: arsenal of information and knowledge that he already had when
Speaker 6: he had an opportunity with Donald Harvey. Tell us again
Speaker 6: this was another MSNBC pilot. This was a second time
Speaker 6: that he had undertaken interviews on behalf of them. Tell
Speaker 6: us the circumstances in which he came to interview Donald Harvey.
Speaker 2: Now, what was very interesting about Donald Harvey was he
Speaker 2: was a very mild mannered man. He was friendly, he
Speaker 2: was totally non threatening, and as I say, he was
Speaker 2: probably among the most prolific serial killers in American history.
Speaker 2: And the reason was because people were looking right through him.
Speaker 7: The fact.
Speaker 2: What we very interesting, what we learned from Donald Harvey
Speaker 2: was that he had figured out completely how to blend
Speaker 2: in with his situation. And when I say blend in
Speaker 2: with the situation, I mean not just to take a
Speaker 2: job as an orderly or a nurse's aide in the hospital.
Speaker 2: He would analyze the situation in that given hospital completely.
Speaker 2: He would know who wore, what color, and what form
Speaker 2: of uniforms on any given day, so that if he
Speaker 2: wanted to blend in to another part of the hospital
Speaker 2: where he didn't belong, he knew where the uniforms were
Speaker 2: stored and the name tags so that he could blend
Speaker 2: in so that he could steal one and do that.
Speaker 7: He became an.
Speaker 2: Expert on all kinds of drugs and the and what
Speaker 2: the lethal dosage were was, so that they could so
Speaker 2: that he could administer it when he wanted to. He
Speaker 2: knew when the shifts changed so that when people would
Speaker 2: be looking for him when they wouldn't be, when there
Speaker 2: would be a lot of people on the floor when
Speaker 2: there weren't. He knew the symptoms for every disease that
Speaker 2: people had, so that he could mimic them, whether it
Speaker 2: was a heart attack or a stroke, or a blood
Speaker 2: clot or anything like that. So this was somebody who
Speaker 2: had completely analyzed.
Speaker 7: His environment.
Speaker 2: If you will, and as I said before, most predators
Speaker 2: have to go out on the hunt, as if you're
Speaker 2: chasing wild animals. Donald Harvey didn't have to do that.
Speaker 2: It was like he was in a zoo where all
Speaker 2: the animals were they are contained for him. All of
Speaker 2: his potential victims were there right in front of him,
Speaker 2: and nobody suspected anything. He claimed that his motive was
Speaker 2: mercy killing, that he was putting people out of their misery,
Speaker 2: but that was patently not true. This was just like
Speaker 2: other serial killers. This was a manifestation the manipulation of
Speaker 2: domination and control, of a sense of godlike power over
Speaker 2: people and the idea that he could do whatever he wanted,
Speaker 2: that he had the he had the power of life
Speaker 2: and death over people. He could do whatever he wanted.
Speaker 2: And the longer it went on dan, the more he
Speaker 2: was successful, the more he became omnipotent. He could do
Speaker 2: whatever he wanted, and people, as I said, just looked
Speaker 2: right through him.
Speaker 6: In the interview, How does John, for example, how does
Speaker 6: John counter some of the lies that have already come
Speaker 6: with them, that they've already said for years and years.
Speaker 6: How does he prepare to be able to counter them
Speaker 6: and challenge them? And how does he garner enough respect
Speaker 6: from them to be able to do that where no
Speaker 6: one else can. What is this secret?
Speaker 2: That's a very good question, and the answer is that
Speaker 2: he is totally prepared. And once these people realize that
Speaker 2: they can't put anything over on him, then they start
Speaker 2: telling the truth because they feel they have no alternative.
Speaker 2: In other words, in Donald Harvey's case, when he would say, well,
Speaker 2: I killed so and so because he was dying of
Speaker 2: cancer or heart disease or whatever, and I put him
Speaker 2: out of his misery, if John knows the actual circumstances
Speaker 2: of the case, he can confront him and say, no,
Speaker 2: that's not what happened. He wasn't dying, or there was
Speaker 2: a chance to save him, and you did this because
Speaker 2: you wanted to or you did this in such a
Speaker 2: way that it caused a lot of pain so you
Speaker 2: couldn't possibly even putting him out.
Speaker 7: Of his misery.
Speaker 2: Or you admitted that you didn't like this person ahead
Speaker 2: of time. Here's a perfect example. When John went to
Speaker 2: Attica Prison, New York to interview David Berkowitz, the son
Speaker 2: of Sam, who had terrorized New York City as the
Speaker 2: forty four caliber killer in the summer of nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 2: The word on the street and what Berkowitz had told
Speaker 2: everybody was that he had been motivated. He had been
Speaker 2: under the control of his neighbor, Sam's two thousand year
Speaker 2: old demon dog, and the demon dog was the one
Speaker 2: who had forced him to kill, who had told him
Speaker 2: to kill. And when John confronted him with the actual
Speaker 2: circumstances of these murders, of the fact that he was
Speaker 2: on the hunt nightly, that it was always the same
Speaker 2: kind of person, that it was always a boy and
Speaker 2: a girl, or a young man and a young woman
Speaker 2: in a car together loving each other, as in an
Speaker 2: experience that David had never had in his life. When
Speaker 2: John confronted him with all of that, and Berkowitz said, well,
Speaker 2: you know, the two thousand year old dog made me
Speaker 2: do it. And John said, essentially, cut the crap. But
Speaker 2: he didn't say it in words that He said, David,
Speaker 2: that's not true. That's not what the dog didn't make
Speaker 2: you do it. And Berkowitz said, you're right, John. Here,
Speaker 2: you know, here's to ask me what you want to Well,
Speaker 2: here's another example. Sometimes we tend to overinterpret, and we
Speaker 2: can learn things from the criminals. For instance, Burkowitz ays,
Speaker 2: the son of Sam wrote a number of letters that
Speaker 2: became public. He wrote letters to Joseph Borelli, the chief
Speaker 2: of Detectives of the New York City Police Department, explaining
Speaker 2: who he was and wanting and wanting glory. And at
Speaker 2: the top of the page he had made intricate patterns
Speaker 2: on the stationery. And then John said, well, why did
Speaker 2: you do that? What was the significance of these patterns
Speaker 2: that you drew on the top of the letter head?
Speaker 2: And Berkowitz said, I just liked them. They just look
Speaker 2: nice to me. So you know, sometimes we can over
Speaker 2: interpret too. So we've got we've got to keep our
Speaker 2: eye on the big picture.
Speaker 6: You do, right, though, at least in the case of
Speaker 6: Todd coleb that some of these people are highly intelligent
Speaker 6: and at least claimed so that they would like to
Speaker 6: have more insight into how they became who they became.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's Todd Colhep's case. I think that
Speaker 2: is true. He was highly intelligent, very very industrious. He
Speaker 2: he had the misfortune, if you will, to assault a
Speaker 2: friend of his, a sixteen year old girl when he
Speaker 2: was about seventeen, and as a result of that crime
Speaker 2: and that complete lack of judgment and desperation on his part,
Speaker 2: he was sentenced to eighteen years in prison, and the
Speaker 2: judge didn't know what to do with him, sent him
Speaker 2: to an adult prison. So this is a guy who
Speaker 2: essentially grew up in prison, and that has to warp
Speaker 2: your sensibility, you know. I don't think it was an
Speaker 2: improper sentence, but it was just a very unfortunate situation.
Speaker 2: So when he got out, he essentially was in his
Speaker 2: twenties and had no adolescence. He really didn't know how
Speaker 2: to behave in the world, so he tried to figure
Speaker 2: it out for himself. He got a college degree, he
Speaker 2: became a real estate agent, very successful, but he still
Speaker 2: had this rage inside and he still had this sense
Speaker 2: that he could control things, and that if people insulted
Speaker 2: him or dissed him in any way, it was his
Speaker 2: right and his obligation almost to revenge himself. And that's
Speaker 2: how he committed some of his murders. So, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the themes of this book, The Killer Across
Speaker 2: the Table, is the balance between nature and nurture. Another
Speaker 2: way of saying this is our serial killers made or born? Well,
Speaker 2: the answer is, in most cases it's both. They certainly
Speaker 2: have a probably an organic, hardwired predilection toward violence or
Speaker 2: risk taking or impulsive behavior, and if they end up
Speaker 2: with a bad background, abuse, or any other kind of
Speaker 2: problems growing up, that can become a very serious and
Speaker 2: dangerous situation. And that's essentially what happened in Todd Coleheb's case.
Speaker 2: He was shuttled back and forth between his divorced parents,
Speaker 2: neither one of them really seemed to want him, and
Speaker 2: he essentially had nobody he could trust growing up. And
Speaker 2: you know what, he grew up without trust, and anybody
Speaker 2: who he thought was taking advantage of him he struck,
Speaker 2: struck out at and tried to take revenge.
Speaker 6: You also say, just to this mix, and not to
Speaker 6: add commentary whether this is right or wrong, but just
Speaker 6: only that he because of this minor, relatively minor, will
Speaker 6: say not to discount him relatively minor offense involving his
Speaker 6: friend at a young age. He got him, that netted him.
Speaker 6: In eighteen years he was designated as a sex offender,
Speaker 6: and that followed him around and complicated his business to
Speaker 6: a great degree.
Speaker 2: You also write that I was just gonna say, you've
Speaker 2: written a book very carefully, Dan.
Speaker 7: I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: Yes. Think you also write that John coming to this
Speaker 6: case and interviewing Todd was also very interesting because before
Speaker 6: he had known who it was, he and his staff
Speaker 6: had also worked on the Superbike murders profile, and so
Speaker 6: he was gratified that he was accurate with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this case started when there was a motorcycle shop
Speaker 2: called Superbikes around in South Carolina, around the Columbia area,
Speaker 2: and four people were murdered in what looked like cold blood.
Speaker 2: There was no real motive or involved that anybody could tell.
Speaker 2: Wasn't like money was taken or anything like that. Four
Speaker 2: people who worked in the actually three people who worked
Speaker 2: in the shop and then the owner's mother were all
Speaker 2: killed in this motorcycle shop toward the end of the day.
Speaker 2: This case was notorious down there, and when unsolved for
Speaker 2: years and years, John was called in and asked to
Speaker 2: profile it, and he became convinced that the killer was
Speaker 2: a disgruntled customer who in some way had been disrespected
Speaker 2: by the staff. And when the case was finally solved,
Speaker 2: that's exactly what it turned.
Speaker 7: Out to be. And Todd Cole at that point.
Speaker 2: Owned up to owned up to the case. And this
Speaker 2: is a man who loved guns. He was very meticulous.
Speaker 2: He felt that he had been disrespected by the staff.
Speaker 2: And so in spite of again being invested in society,
Speaker 2: having a good job, having people depend on him, he
Speaker 2: went back to this place and watched it very carefully
Speaker 2: to make sure in his you know, he had his
Speaker 2: own sense of morality, that no customers were there, that
Speaker 2: it was only staff. He waited till the end of
Speaker 2: the day, he walked in and as efficiently as possible,
Speaker 2: he killed all four people in the shop and walked out.
Speaker 7: And that was that.
Speaker 2: And later on years later, when he was when he
Speaker 2: was interrogated by the by the Sheriff's office in Spartanburg,
Speaker 2: South Carolina, I watched the watch the tape. He's very
Speaker 2: matter of fact about the whole thing. He's almost proud
Speaker 2: of not having killed these people people, but in his
Speaker 2: proficiency at having killed. So this is a very so,
Speaker 2: this is a very mixed up guy. And I will
Speaker 2: say that in this case, the reason he agreed to
Speaker 2: cooperate with John is he really did and I believe
Speaker 2: him in this case, he really didn't want to understand
Speaker 2: himself and why someone as successful as him felt this compulsion,
Speaker 2: this motivation to even the score, to get back at
Speaker 2: people and kill. And that's what he did with Lucky Lancelots.
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Speaker 6: Then, was John interested in the completely different victimology that
Speaker 6: would maybe confuse an amateur profiler when they were looking
Speaker 6: at all these different times.
Speaker 7: Yeah, these.
Speaker 2: Todd Colehead's victims were not linked by the police. There
Speaker 2: were the four people in the bike shop, and then
Speaker 2: several years, a number of years later, a man and
Speaker 2: a woman were killed. Their bodies weren't found at the time,
Speaker 2: they just ended up missing. And then sometime after that
Speaker 2: he killed another man and that's what he put at
Speaker 2: the girlfriend, the man's girlfriend in this shipping container, because
Speaker 2: he didn't know what to do with her. So yes,
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things we learned about killers
Speaker 2: from the Todd Coleheab case is that, you know, sometimes
Speaker 2: we have linkage blindness. We call it when we either
Speaker 2: link cases that shouldn't have been linked, or we don't
Speaker 2: link cases that should have been And there was no
Speaker 2: reason to think that the same person would have killed
Speaker 2: people in these different situations until you understood the psychology
Speaker 2: of what he was doing and why. And in his case,
Speaker 2: his motivation was any time he thought he was being
Speaker 2: taken advantage of, that's when the killing instinct rose in him.
Speaker 6: The most movie.
Speaker 2: Asked and let me just and let me answer but
Speaker 2: he freely, and he freely admitted in prison that had
Speaker 2: he not been caught and if anybody else had done
Speaker 2: this to him, he would have killed again.
Speaker 6: Willingly, certainly, certainly. It's the most movie asque part of
Speaker 6: this book, very very vivid visual is the when they
Speaker 6: got a tip when when she had disappeared, this woman
Speaker 6: had disappeared and Caleb Brown had disappeared, calib Brown had disappeared,
Speaker 6: and they got a tip that she was on a
Speaker 6: remote property on a hundred acre wooded area. Then they
Speaker 6: got a hold of her cell phone and there was
Speaker 6: some connection with this person that seemingly from this successful
Speaker 6: forty five year old real estate developer. But they had
Speaker 6: enough for a warrant, so they went and searched and
Speaker 6: they found this, as you mentioned, the cortex container, very
Speaker 6: very interesting when they saw the five locks on there
Speaker 6: and they tried to get in there. What happened tell.
Speaker 2: Us well, first of all, and the way that they
Speaker 2: located it that this particular property was and you're now
Speaker 2: out of my technical level of sophistication, and John's too,
Speaker 2: but as I understand it, you're able to locate where
Speaker 2: the signal on a cell phone is coming from if
Speaker 2: you can identify which cell phone towers it is pinging
Speaker 2: during during a call, and apparently the cell phone tower
Speaker 2: that this phone had pinged was either on or very
Speaker 2: near Todd Colheb's property. Combined with this tip, that was
Speaker 2: enough to get a warrant to search, and they searched
Speaker 2: the property and for quite a while before they came
Speaker 2: upon this container and as you say, it had five
Speaker 2: locks on it, which certainly arouses suspicion. What could possibly
Speaker 2: be in there that you need five locks for. They
Speaker 2: tried to break the locks and get them off. They
Speaker 2: couldn't do.
Speaker 7: It at first.
Speaker 2: Eventually they went to a barn on col Heap's property
Speaker 2: and found some of his own tools, and they used
Speaker 2: those tools to open it up. And as they got
Speaker 2: as they started opening up, they heard sounds. And when
Speaker 2: they finally got the fifth lock off and opened the
Speaker 2: door and aimed their flashlights into this darkened container and
Speaker 2: saw a young woman with a chain around her neck
Speaker 2: chaine to the wall. I mean, you can imagine how
Speaker 2: shocked they would have been. At the same time, another
Speaker 2: contingent of Sheriff's deputies arrived at Todd Colehep's house in
Speaker 2: the city and interviewed him. He denied everything. And then
Speaker 2: as soon as they said, well, we've already been to
Speaker 2: your property out in the country and we have Caleb Brown,
Speaker 2: and at that point he knew the jig was up.
Speaker 6: Yes, and this too, you say that this incredible case
Speaker 6: of the superbike murders. Is also a documentary producer, Maria Oz.
Speaker 6: Maybe I'm mispronouncing her name, Yeah, but she inadvertently became
Speaker 6: involved with this and was introduced to Todd Coleip and
Speaker 6: was produced a series, a six episode series after that
Speaker 6: tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, this is very interesting and this series will be
Speaker 2: on Investigative Discovery in the fall. It's going to be
Speaker 2: called Devil on a Chain, which is a reference to
Speaker 2: a line about Todd Coleeth from the probation report that
Speaker 2: was done during that original crime when he was that
Speaker 2: original sexual assault when he was sixteen.
Speaker 7: And what happened was.
Speaker 2: Maria who is a former investigative journalist, television journalist and
Speaker 2: a documentary film producer in Minneapolis. She got a call
Speaker 2: one day from the cousin of somebody who worked for her,
Speaker 2: and this cousin was a real estate agent in South
Speaker 2: Carolina and said Maria, I need some advice from you.
Speaker 2: My boss, my ex boss. He'd actually stopped where he'd
Speaker 2: gone over to another firm at that point, but he said,
Speaker 2: my ex boss at the real estate company has just
Speaker 2: been invited for murder, for multiple murder. He called me
Speaker 2: from the jail and he'd like me to write about him.
Speaker 7: What do I do?
Speaker 2: And so that began Maria's quest to find out what
Speaker 2: makes this guy tick. And what happened was she didn't
Speaker 2: feel that she had enough information or understanding. She called
Speaker 2: in John and said can you help us? And John said, well,
Speaker 2: I can help you if he'll agree to talk to me.
Speaker 7: And so.
Speaker 2: In the prison Warden was unwilling to let John actually
Speaker 2: into talk to him. But what we did was that
Speaker 2: fifty seven page UH protocol Assessment, the assessment protocol that
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 7: UH.
Speaker 2: We were able to get Todd Cole have to fill
Speaker 2: that out, and in fact, he filled it out so
Speaker 2: completely that he needed numerous extra pages to do this.
Speaker 2: So we have probably one of the most complete UH
Speaker 2: and I believe Ken did self examinations of a serial
Speaker 2: killer that you know has ever been produced, and it's
Speaker 2: all reflected in this book. The killer across the table.
Speaker 6: Why what was it about Todd though that that he
Speaker 6: was able to do this? And also you you talk
Speaker 6: about self reporting to psychiatrists and the Bolli in that
Speaker 6: what was exceptional about Todd and his ability to be
Speaker 6: able to give you something that John believed was accurate.
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think there's there's a couple of
Speaker 2: dynamics going on, and you've kind of hit on all
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 7: Dan.
Speaker 2: Number one is, unlike most of us so called normal people,
Speaker 2: a lot of these people can lead a very compartmentalized life.
Speaker 2: They can lead their normal life and their criminal life
Speaker 2: in two separate silos, if you will, and they don't
Speaker 2: necessarily have to interact with each other. The other thing was,
Speaker 2: in Todd's case, I think he did have certain insights
Speaker 2: and sensitivities that most violent offenders don't have, which is
Speaker 2: that he realized he was going to be in prison
Speaker 2: for the rest of his life, which he will be,
Speaker 2: and he really was troubled and conflicted and really did
Speaker 2: want to understand. So I think, based on the fact
Speaker 2: that he had what he had reported before was very
Speaker 2: true and we were able to check him on it
Speaker 2: when it came to time for him to write out
Speaker 2: these answers and tell us what he was thinking again before, during,
Speaker 2: and after each of these crimes, so that we could
Speaker 2: correlate this with the evidence left at the crime scene.
Speaker 2: He was very credible. We believed him because everything that
Speaker 2: we were able to check him on he had been
Speaker 2: completely candid and honest about and he wasn't trying to
Speaker 2: wasn't trying to be anything that he wasn't. And one
Speaker 2: other thing Dan which was very interesting in Todd Coleeb's case,
Speaker 2: very few of these killers ed Kemper is a notable exception,
Speaker 2: but very few of these killers really do accept responsibility
Speaker 2: for what they did. And in Todd Coleheb's case, once
Speaker 2: the jig was up, he absolutely accepted responsibility and said, yes,
Speaker 2: I did it. Now I'd like help in understanding why
Speaker 2: I did it. That was a rare opportunity for us.
Speaker 6: What I thought was very interesting and probably surprising and
Speaker 6: was surprising to me was that his claim with calib Brown,
Speaker 6: you know, chained and shackled in this in this container,
Speaker 6: and she was the person we didn't mention. She was
Speaker 6: the person that said listen, He's the guy that told that.
Speaker 6: Todd told me he did the superbike murders, so.
Speaker 2: That that's what opened it all up. Absolutely.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Surprisingly I thought was that his claim of the
Speaker 6: contact he had with calib Brown, he said was consensual.
Speaker 6: How did John reconcile that claim?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, uh, it's a little dicey because Calla
Speaker 2: didn't talk to us, so we have to take it
Speaker 2: from Todd's point of view. But everything he says makes
Speaker 2: a certain amount of sense. And what we suspect was
Speaker 2: he claims, and we have reason to believe him that
Speaker 2: he never actually raped her physically pushed himself upon her.
Speaker 2: There's no question that they had sexual relations and had
Speaker 2: had before this whole event. They knew each other from before.
Speaker 2: But it is believable that he did not force himself
Speaker 2: on her. And anything that happened may have been initiated,
Speaker 2: may very well have been initiated by her. And I
Speaker 2: don't mean that there was anything perverse about her. I
Speaker 2: think this very likely could have been a survival mechanism
Speaker 2: on her part. For instance, he kept her chained up.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, when she asked for things, he
Speaker 2: would go out and buy her whatever she wanted, whatever food.
Speaker 2: He had an account that Amazon and whatever she wanted,
Speaker 2: he would buy for her. So again a very mixed
Speaker 2: up individual.
Speaker 6: Yes, certainly the insight that he gave or he demonstrated,
Speaker 6: but also the insights into how he became, how he
Speaker 6: turned out. Did he achieve that? Did Todd achieve that
Speaker 6: with the help of John Douglas?
Speaker 2: I think to a certain extent. I mean, motivation why
Speaker 2: we do these things, you know, ultimately may remain a mystery,
Speaker 2: but I think John did help him to understand the
Speaker 2: inherent conflicts in his growing up, in his development, in
Speaker 2: the problems he's had, he had as a result of
Speaker 2: spending most of his adolescents and young adulthood in prison.
Speaker 2: And ultimately, you know what we what we called this
Speaker 2: section of the book was just what.
Speaker 7: He said, which was, no one made me do anything.
Speaker 7: He did it.
Speaker 2: He did it because he had the choice, and he
Speaker 2: chose he chose the wrong direction. And we hope, we
Speaker 2: hope this is a lesson for anybody who might be
Speaker 2: going down that path. I mean, we don't expect ever
Speaker 2: to eliminate crime, and more than doctors expect to eliminate disease.
Speaker 2: We just try to learn more about it so that
Speaker 2: we can fight it.
Speaker 6: And You also said too that really the John Douglas
Speaker 6: and everybody associated with the FBI and criminal profiling doesn't
Speaker 6: really care whether it's a disorder, it's a a disorder,
Speaker 6: a syndrome, a mental illness. It's just really you do
Speaker 6: say that it's a matter of choice with all of
Speaker 6: these people, but all that certainly, as long as they
Speaker 6: know right from wrong, that's the determination.
Speaker 2: That is the determination. All of these people probably have
Speaker 2: some sort of mental illness, that's true. But unless they
Speaker 2: are actually delusional, unless they do not understand reality, to
Speaker 2: not comprehend reality and understand the difference between right and wrong,
Speaker 2: they are making a choice, and that choice is the
Speaker 2: critical element.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much Mark for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about the killer across the table, unlocking
Speaker 6: the secrets of serial killers and predators with the FBI's
Speaker 6: original mind Hunter. It has been fascinating for those that.
Speaker 2: You want, it's always a pleasure to be on with you.
Speaker 6: For those that might want to look at other work,
Speaker 6: Is there a Facebook page and a website they might
Speaker 6: people might take a look at it.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes there is. You can.
Speaker 2: You can look on mind hunters Inc. Dot com. That's
Speaker 2: m I. N. D h U n T E R
Speaker 2: s I n C dot com or mind hunters dot net.
Speaker 2: Either one will take you to our page. It'll show
Speaker 2: you our books, it'll tell you something about ourselves, and
Speaker 2: the other thing that we'll do is we'll give you
Speaker 2: actual pictures of the cases that we talked about in
Speaker 2: this book. So please please go there.
Speaker 6: Absolutely. Thank you very much again, Mark Olshaker for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about the Killer Across the Table. Fantastic
Speaker 6: book and the fascinating interview. Thank you very much, and
Speaker 6: you have a great evening. Thank you, Dan, good night.
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