WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.240 Hello, It is Ryan and I was on a flight 2 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.480 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 3 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:07.080 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at 4 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:08.919 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 5 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.720 they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, 6 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:14.240 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa 7 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:16.640 Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can 8 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:20.519 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. 9 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.920 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 10 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.120 claim you're free. Welcome bonus, that's Chumbuck Casino dot com 11 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:27.480 and live the chumber line. 12 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:30.559 No necessary void whereby I lost in terms conditions eighteen plus. 13 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.560 With the Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just 14 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:34.520 about anywhere. 15 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.240 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 16 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.200 weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a 17 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.479 while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's 18 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.159 just these cash prizes add up quick, So I suggest 19 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:48.200 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 20 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:49.359 start getting lucky. 21 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 22 00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.759 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void we're prohibited by Law 23 00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:02.520 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website. Ford Block 24 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:03.520 to Radio. 25 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:16.079 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:26.840 written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 28 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:30.840 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:30.879 --> 00:01:34.879 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 30 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:38.359 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:53.400 Good Evening. The FBI's pioneer of criminal profiling, former Special 32 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.560 Agent John Douglas, has studied and interviewed many of America's 33 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:03.079 most notorious killers, including Manson, Son of Sam, killer David Berkowitz, 34 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:08.599 and BTK strangler. Dennis Rader's trained FBI agents investigators around 35 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:11.599 the world and helped educate the country about these deadly 36 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:14.520 predators and how they operate, and has become a legend 37 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.199 in popular culture, fictionalized in the Silence of the Lambs 38 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.919 and the hit television shows Criminal Minds and mind Hunter. 39 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:27.000 Twenty years after his famous memoir, the man who literally 40 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:30.960 wrote the book on FBI criminal profiling opens his case 41 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:34.680 files once again. In this rivetting work of true crime, 42 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:39.719 he spotlights four of the most diabolical criminals he's confronted, interviewed, 43 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:43.680 and learned from going deep into each man's life and crimes. 44 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:46.919 He outlines the factors that led them to murder and 45 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:52.319 how he used his interrogation skills to expose their means, motives, 46 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:57.000 and true evil. Like the hit Netflix show, The Killer 47 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.960 Across the Table is centered around Douglas's unique interrogation and 48 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:07.319 profiling process with his longtime collaborator Mark Olshaker. Douglas recounts 49 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:11.080 the chilling encounters with these four killers as he experienced them, 50 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:15.280 revealing for the first time his profile methods in detail, 51 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:18.520 a glimpse into the mind of a man who has 52 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:22.000 pierced the heart of human darkness. The Killer Across the 53 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:26.680 Table unlocks the ultimate mystery of depravity and the techniques 54 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:30.639 and approaches that have countered evil in the name of justice. 55 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:33.159 The book that we're featuring this evening is The Killer 56 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:37.120 Across the Table, Unlocking the secrets of serial killers and 57 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:42.680 predators with the FBI's original Mindhunter, with my special guest 58 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:47.240 journalist and author Mark Ohlshaker. Welcome to the program, and 59 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.800 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Mark 60 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.639 Olshaker and thank you for having me. 61 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:53.879 Dan, It's always a pleasure. 62 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.159 Thank you very much. I wanted to say too. In 63 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:05.360 nineteen ninety five five, you and John formed John Douglas Mindhunters, Incorporated, 64 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:09.560 and then you released mind Hunter, inside the FBI's elite 65 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:16.040 serial crime unit, and the Netflix series Mindhunter was made 66 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:19.879 in twenty seventeen as a hit series. And today we 67 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.839 are discussing your latest collaboration with John Douglas, The Killer 68 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:30.600 across the Table. Tell us what this book is, What 69 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.040 this book is about primarily. 70 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.439 Well, Dan, since you mentioned mind Hunter, this really follows 71 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:41.319 directly from that. The first season of mind Hunter is 72 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.560 really about the beginning of the behavioral Profiling program, which 73 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.480 was when John and his partner Robert Wrestler, who were 74 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:53.519 tasked with going around the country and speaking to different 75 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:58.800 police departments and teaching FBI investigative methods and criminal psychology. 76 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:02.079 While they were around the country, John decided it would 77 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.959 be a good idea to go into the penitentiaries and 78 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:10.519 prisons and try to speak to the most dangerous of 79 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:15.439 the violent predators there, the serial killers and other violent predators, 80 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:17.240 and see. 81 00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:20.319 What he could find out and what they did. 82 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:24.279 After going through this process was to be able to 83 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.800 correlate for the first time what was going on in 84 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:33.319 the offender's mind for during and after the offense, to 85 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:37.480 correlate that with the evidence left at the crime scene, 86 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:43.879 forensic evidence, behavioral evidence, scientific evidence eventually DNA and things 87 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.439 like that, and that these interviews are really what led 88 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.480 to the modern discipline of criminal profiling and criminal investigative 89 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:58.399 analysis as the FBI practices it. So what we decided 90 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:01.120 to do in this book is for the first time 91 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:06.560 take a deep dive into this interviewing process to show 92 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.839 exactly how it was done, what the beats are, what 93 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:14.040 the techniques are, how John got these people to open 94 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.720 up about what was really going on in their minds. 95 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:20.800 And while we do talk about his encounters with the 96 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:24.839 famous ones, with the Ted Bundyes, with the David Berkowitz, 97 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.879 the son of Sam, with Ed Kemper, the co ed 98 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:30.839 killer who was featured prominently in the first series of 99 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:37.959 first season of Mind Hunter, and others like that Charlie Manson, 100 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.000 for instance, what we did primarily in this book was 101 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:47.319 to take four cases, four violent predators who John has encountered, 102 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:52.680 and to really show what the encounter was all about 103 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.720 how these people's minds work and what the outcome was. Now, 104 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.800 most people will not know these cases. They're not as 105 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:05.959 well publicized, So that allows the reader to approach them objectively, 106 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:12.480 without any preconceived biases, and for us to essentially use 107 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:16.399 the great thriller technique of letting the reader find out 108 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:18.920 for him or herself what happens next. 109 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.839 Now, you talked about some of the pioneering techniques that 110 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:28.920 he used to for the very very important, crucial interview. 111 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.560 Tell us about some of the things that right from 112 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:35.360 the beginning they used and learned to set up an 113 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.639 interview so that it'll be more effective. 114 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.240 Well, that's a very interesting question, Dan, because the first 115 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.759 thing they realized was that they couldn't really tape them, 116 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.240 to record them or to take notes, because these guys 117 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.040 tend to be these criminals in prison tend to be 118 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:59.759 very paranoid, and anything that you do to encourage that 119 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:02.759 behavior is going to take away from the candidness of 120 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.040 the interview. So what they realized was they better just 121 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:11.360 go in without a tape recorder, without notes, and talk extensively, 122 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:13.920 and when I say extensively, I mean hours at a 123 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.920 time to these predators knowing everything about the case so 124 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.920 that they couldn't be snowed or fooled. 125 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:23.759 And then as soon as they. 126 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.480 Got out of the interview, they would refer to a 127 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.439 fifty six page written document what they called the assessment Protocol, 128 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:34.000 and they would write down all the answers to all 129 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:37.519 the questions in that before they forgot them. And then 130 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:42.720 these protocols were all correlated, eventually into a major study 131 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.799 which in turn led to a book, an academic book 132 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:52.639 called Sexual Homicide Patterns and Motives, and then eventually to 133 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:58.000 the Crime Classification Manual, which is a systematized approach to 134 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:02.840 violent crime. Now there were different techniques for different people, 135 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:07.559 and somebody like Charlie Manson, who was very short and diminutive, 136 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:10.879 he as soon as they got into the prison with him, 137 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:12.879 he climbed up on the back of the chair so 138 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:16.240 that he could lord over these two FBI agents and 139 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.159 they let him do it. Sometimes they would position the 140 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.840 offender looking out a window, sometimes away from it, depending 141 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:27.600 on his personality, always with the same goal, which is 142 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:31.440 to get as much information about what really happened, what 143 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.240 was really going on in the minds of the killers 144 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.720 or the predators as they were committing the crime, as 145 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.200 well as what they were thinking before and how they 146 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:41.879 reacted afterwards. 147 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:50.960 You cite the four examples of Joseph McGowan and Donald Harvey, 148 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:57.120 Todd Cole Hep and Joseph Condro. What was it about 149 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.240 Let's start with, as you do in the book, talk 150 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:03.120 about Joseph McGowan. What was it about the Joseph McGowan 151 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:08.600 case that interested John Douglass in the first place? And 152 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.080 was there any other reason why he was involved. 153 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:13.120 With this shot? 154 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.200 Well, first of all, the reason he was involved is 155 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.279 in this case, all of these encounters that we talk 156 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:23.159 about now happened after John retired from the FBI, so 157 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.720 he was actually much freer to do whatever he wanted. 158 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:32.679 He wasn't constrained by any FBI protocols m In McGowan's case, 159 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:37.159 John was called by the chairman of the New Jersey 160 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.960 State Parole Board and asked to interview this individual and 161 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:46.679 see whether he was a proper candidate for parole. Now, 162 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.919 what was very interesting about Joseph McGowan, What was very macabre? 163 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:56.360 He was a high school science teacher in New Jersey. 164 00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:59.720 He had a master's degree. He was very well respected. 165 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:02.799 In other words, he was not a marginal character. He 166 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.360 was someone who was totally invested in the system, if 167 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:06.799 you will. 168 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.159 And what he did was. 169 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:18.240 He killed, he assaulted, brutalized, and murdered a seven year 170 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.759 old young lady, a girl who had come to his 171 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:25.799 house to collect two dollars from an order he had 172 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.840 made for Girl Scout cookies. She was a Brownie, she 173 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.240 lived around the corner from him. As soon as he 174 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.240 and he told John, after John took him through hours 175 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:42.559 of interviews and got him to relive, to go back 176 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:47.360 into this one time and place, he said, John. As 177 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:49.639 soon as she rang the doorbell and I saw who 178 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.519 it was through the screen door, I knew I was 179 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:55.840 going to kill her. Now, what makes somebody who is 180 00:11:55.960 --> 00:12:00.519 totally invested in the system, who was respected, who has students, 181 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.440 who lives in a nice house, what makes him give 182 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:09.960 up everything to kill a totally innocent, beautiful child like this? 183 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:15.039 This was really important to know. The next case, Joseph 184 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:18.000 Condro was not quite so invested in the system. He 185 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.600 was kind of a ne're dwell on the fringes of society, 186 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.720 and he raped and murdered young girls, young teenage girls. 187 00:12:27.159 --> 00:12:31.200 Now what's interesting and completely chilling about his case is 188 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:36.519 he didn't murder strangers. He chose the daughters of friends 189 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.320 of his. Why because he felt it would be easier 190 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:45.320 to get to them, because they would go with him willingly. 191 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.120 He had already established a trust relationship with them, which 192 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.639 of course he completely violated. And he thought he was 193 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.200 so close to the situation that no one would suspect him. 194 00:12:56.360 --> 00:13:01.360 That was his particular perversion and mo then on the 195 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:02.879 third case, Donald Harvey. 196 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:04.759 We think of people like. 197 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:11.559 Ted Bundy as the most prolific serial killers in American history, 198 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.159 people like Bundy who cut a swath of destruction and 199 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:19.840 murder from Seattle all the way down to Florida. And 200 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.679 in fact, as horrible as people like Bundy are, Donald 201 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:29.159 Harvey was probably the most prolific serial killer in American history. 202 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:30.759 Why what did he do? 203 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.320 He was a nurse's aide and an orderly in a 204 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:38.279 series of hospitals he probably killed. We'll never know for sure, 205 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.279 but he probably killed close to one hundred people over 206 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:46.600 a seventeen year period before anyone realized a murder had 207 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.480 taken place. These are considered natural debts, and yet he 208 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.000 was causing them in hospitals. He was there as victims 209 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:56.639 were there. He didn't have to hunt, he didn't have 210 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:58.879 to be predatory in the sense that most of them do. 211 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:02.919 People were looking right through him. And then we finish 212 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.799 up with a man named Todd coleheb a successful real 213 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.120 estate broker in South Carolina. He drove fancy sports cars, 214 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.879 he had an airplane, he had a whole staff of 215 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.759 people working for him, and he'd also killed seven people. 216 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:22.960 The only reason he was found out was because you 217 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:25.200 may remember this case from a couple of years ago. 218 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:32.360 Sheriff's deputies discovered a young woman who he had kept 219 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:38.200 chained up in a shipping container, large shipping container as 220 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.440 you would see on a boat, in his rural property 221 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:44.399 in South Carolina. He'd kept her there chained up for 222 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:47.600 six weeks. Everyone assumed that she was a sex slave 223 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.080 for him. In fact, that was not the case. 224 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.200 The case was. 225 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.360 He had killed her boyfriend and she had witnessed it, 226 00:14:56.559 --> 00:14:58.279 and he didn't really know what to do with her, 227 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.720 so he just kept her trying to figure it out. So, 228 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.559 what makes all of these guys tick, and they're almost 229 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:08.120 always guys, by the way, what makes them tick? That's 230 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.600 what we needed to know. That's why this book is important. 231 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:15.279 This is about the human condition at the real extreme. 232 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:20.679 Stand now with each one of these cases. Let's go 233 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:27.399 back to Joseph McGowan. Sure, John employs many techniques as well. 234 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:31.799 To start, and you explain as well that going into 235 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:36.960 this he originally he thought when they have preconceptions in 236 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.240 the beginning of criminal profiling, they thought that a lot 237 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.480 of inmates might not want to talk to them. In fact, 238 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.639 many of these did. In fact, it was the opposite 239 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:50.200 of that. Why would Joseph McGowan talk to him. We 240 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.759 know that he's up for parole. There's a felony, first 241 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.080 degree felony murder, so it means that he was up 242 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:01.320 for parole after fourteen years. So there was a couple 243 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:03.600 of one parole hearing where he was denied in the 244 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:06.440 second parole hearing, and then John came into the picture 245 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.399 to inform that parole board after interviewing him. Explain a 246 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:13.879 little bit more about how important John was in this 247 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:15.840 parole process. 248 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.519 Well, he was crucial as it turned out. Dan, Yes, 249 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:24.399 I think there's different motivations for the killers to speak. 250 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.919 Sometimes they're bored, they don't get a lot of most 251 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:30.879 killers don't get a lot of visitors. Sometimes they think 252 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:35.799 it will increase their stature with the prison, with the 253 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:39.799 prison staff. Sometimes they think it will help with their 254 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:44.399 parole chances. Sometimes they just want to relive their crimes. 255 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:47.559 A lot of these people live by fantasy and that's 256 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.679 what they want to do. And in some cases they 257 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:52.799 just think it's a battle of wits and they can 258 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.159 out with an FBI agent or. 259 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:56.240 A FED Now. 260 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:58.559 In McGowan's case, he really thought this was going to 261 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.960 help with his parole chance. And what he didn't realize 262 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.000 was and John came into the case, I have to say, 263 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.319 totally objective. He didn't know whether this individual should be 264 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.000 parolled or not. But one thing that McGowan and some 265 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.200 of these others don't realize is that when John goes 266 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.240 in to interview one of these people, he goes in 267 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.079 totally prepared. He knows every aspect of the case. He's 268 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.359 gone completely through the case files, he's gone completely through 269 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:32.079 the autopsy photographs, the autopsy protocols. He knows everything about 270 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.839 the case. So that these people can't snow him, they 271 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:39.160 can't be self serving. He gets to what's really going on, 272 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.680 and he's also very patient and tries not to be judgmental, 273 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.759 at least overtly judgmental. He wants these people to tell 274 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.519 their own stories in their own way. So in the 275 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:58.359 case of McGowan, he went through hours of interviewing until 276 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.680 McGowan finally felt comfortable enough and was unguarded enough so 277 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.960 he would tell what really happened. It's almost like this 278 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.400 is your life kind of television program. He got McGowan 279 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:14.519 to go back to relive what had happened more than 280 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.880 twenty years before. He said, tell me what happened. Tell 281 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.279 me what was going on when this little girl approached 282 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.960 your steps, And he got McGowan to tell him. And 283 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.200 he also got mcgallen to explain to him that he 284 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.960 was often acting out of rage. He called it red 285 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.480 rage and white rage, and red rage he said he 286 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.920 could control if he had to, but when it was 287 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.880 white rage that controlled him. And in the case of 288 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.160 seeing this little girl, when he was already upset about 289 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.359 other things, which we go into in the book and 290 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.440 we really uncover the mystery of why he killed this girl. 291 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.599 But when white rage took hold of him, he couldn't 292 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.400 control it anymore. And what John really talking to him 293 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.559 and what he was then presented before the parole board 294 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.359 was McGowan might get out of prison and he would 295 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.880 be okay for a while, but then when he got 296 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.279 into a situation where the white rage took hold of him, 297 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.640 he would still be a very dangerous individual. And that's 298 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.960 why he recommended that McGowan not be paroled, and McGowan 299 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:27.720 remains in prison to this day. 300 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:34.599 You spoke about that he really broke down. He had 301 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:40.039 been examined by many other psychiatrists and other personnel, and 302 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.240 yet John broke through and got to much more. And 303 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:45.759 that's his goals, to get to the actual truth. So 304 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:48.960 many things he didn't believe based on his experience, and 305 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.559 he broke through with that. Well, I thought was fascinating 306 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.680 was the even though this seemed like a very very 307 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:59.759 bright parole board, that he still John had some emphatically 308 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.160 told them some big lessons about what he had learned, 309 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:09.200 especially concerning McGowan, but also just about perpetrators in general. 310 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:11.839 Tell us about that, well, you know, that's. 311 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.880 A very interesting subject you bring up, Dan, because what 312 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:20.519 John will say is, you know, he is like a specialist. 313 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:25.039 Other doctors might see ordinary things, but if you have 314 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.599 a rare or unusual condition, you have to go to 315 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.240 a specialist who sees this kind of stuff all the time, 316 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:35.319 and that's what John is. John sees the predators, he 317 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:38.160 sees the worst of the worst from all over, and 318 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.440 he's an expert in that. Many times, when these people 319 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:47.519 are examined by psychologists or psychiatrists, they don't really know 320 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.640 how to deal with these people because they don't have 321 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.519 that kind of experience. I mean, when most of us 322 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:58.519 go to a therapist, it's because we don't feel well, 323 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.319 we don't like what we're thinking, we have anxiety or depression, 324 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.640 and so it's to our advantage to tell the truth 325 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.720 and tell the doctor the therapist how we're really feeling. 326 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:13.400 That's not the case all the time with incarcerated criminals. 327 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:16.559 They want to get out, that's what their job is, 328 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:18.680 so they don't want to tell the truth. They want 329 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.000 to tell whatever sounds best. And we have many cases 330 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:27.559 of individuals being able to fool psychiatrists who are thinking 331 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.839 the best about people. One of the major cases that 332 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.039 was featured in the first season of mind Hunter on 333 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.759 Netflix is the case of Ed Kemper, the so called 334 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.839 co ed killer. He was on parole and under supervision 335 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.519 for having killed his grandparents when he was a teenager 336 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:56.519 and he had court mandated appointments with a psychologist or 337 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.839 a psychiatrist. One time he had a very good visit, 338 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.079 in a very clean bill of health from the psychologist 339 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.960 he went to see, and it just so happened that 340 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.079 that day, in the trunk of his car which he 341 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.799 drove to the appointment, he had the head of one 342 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.240 of his young victims. So it's not that these people 343 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:21.119 don't try, they just don't necessarily have the experience to 344 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.880 be as skeptical as John does to have their antennas 345 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:25.759 up in the same way. 346 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:31.920 You cite a couple other dramatic examples, and including Arthur 347 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.680 Shawcross as well in this which I think is important. 348 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:44.880 Well, Arthur Shawcross was a man in upstate New York. 349 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:45.920 He had. 350 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.119 Raped and assaulted a young boy and a young girl. 351 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:56.200 He was put in prison for fifteen to twenty five 352 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.240 year sentence. I believe he was let out after fifteen. 353 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.480 It turns out he just picked up where he had 354 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:08.319 left off in this case, he graduated from killing children 355 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.480 to killing prostitutes in the Rochester, New York area, prostitutes 356 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.079 and helpless people. Now, it may seem that these are 357 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.880 completely different victims of choice, victims of preference, but they're 358 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:25.640 not really children. Prostitutes and street people and old people, 359 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.160 elderly people have one thing in common, which is that 360 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.680 they are all vulnerable. And sometimes that's all these predators 361 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:35.720 are looking for, is the vulnerable victim. 362 00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:39.920 And this is part of a central part of the 363 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.920 profiling process for jonas that he tries to look at 364 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.279 the central motivation, not a sure somebody might look at 365 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:51.279 initially as a motivation or the motivation. He goes, like 366 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.920 you say, much deeper into finding the actual motivation, which 367 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.440 is a surprise to a lot of people. You talk 368 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:01.480 about the Joseph Chondro case and the role of an 369 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:08.920 MSNBC TV producer pilot series and being the impetus for 370 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:15.839 John interviewing Joseph Condro despite what the MSNBC producers wanted. 371 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.880 What was John's intent and tell us a little bit 372 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.880 more about why he wanted to What was interesting about 373 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:25.680 Joseph Condro's case. 374 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:33.240 Again, very very interesting case and really tells us a 375 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.200 lot about the way people are all across the board. 376 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:42.359 Joseph Contro, as I said, was itinerant, handyman. 377 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:43.799 He had been a painter. 378 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.200 He worked on construction. He'd been married a number of 379 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.839 times and had a number of children with women who 380 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:55.519 weren't his wife, and his predilection was to. 381 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:03.759 Assault and Lucky Land Casino, asking people, what's the weirdest 382 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:05.079 place you've gotten lucky? 383 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:05.759 Lucky? 384 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.279 In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my 385 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.880 dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say? 386 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.279 Yes? 387 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:12.519 You do? 388 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:15.240 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 389 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:15.839 Really? 390 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:16.359 Yes? 391 00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:18.880 Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 392 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:20.119 I never win? 393 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:20.519 In tell? 394 00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:21.640 Well, there you have it. 395 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.519 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot 396 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.160 com play for free right now? 397 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.519 Are you feeling lucky? No, we're not necessary void ware 398 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:30.359 my long eighteen plus terms conditions of plus. 399 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:35.240 What everydls urder young girls and you would think that 400 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:39.880 you'd look elsewhere than your own backyard essentially for these victims, 401 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.599