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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of our series about the

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<v Speaker 1>disappearance of Tommy Gibson. Let's jump right back into the case. So,

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<v Speaker 1>two weeks after Tommy went missing, investigators were approached by

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<v Speaker 1>Janette Klein, who happened to be the mother in law

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<v Speaker 1>of Jennifer Kleine, the neighbor whose cat was shot. So

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<v Speaker 1>Jeanette claimed that on the morning of Tommy's disappearance, she

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<v Speaker 1>was driving down the end of her driveway and saw

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<v Speaker 1>an older modeled gold or tan colored pickup truck pass

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<v Speaker 1>by on the road, and after Janetta turned right, she

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<v Speaker 1>tailed the truck for a short distance and noticed that

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<v Speaker 1>the silhouettes of two figures inside the cab. And she

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<v Speaker 1>also said that the most distinctive feature is that the

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<v Speaker 1>truck had its license plate in the back window rather

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<v Speaker 1>than on the rear bumper, which is why she remembered

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<v Speaker 1>this event so distinctly. And then she noticed that the

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<v Speaker 1>truck soon turned right and headed down the lengthy driveway

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<v Speaker 1>which led to the Gibson residence, which was located far

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<v Speaker 1>away from the main road in a very remote spot.

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<v Speaker 1>And while Jeanette didn't think much of it at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>once she learned about Tommy's disappearance. She came forward and

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<v Speaker 1>shared this siding of the truck and put the idea

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<v Speaker 1>in investigator's heads that maybe this was a stranger abduction

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe the people driving this truck had something to

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<v Speaker 1>do with it. But it does not sound like law

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<v Speaker 1>enforce and put much credence into her story, as during

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<v Speaker 1>her initial interview with FBI, she never even mentioned the

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<v Speaker 1>truck and it only just seemed to pop up into

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<v Speaker 1>her head a couple weeks later, So they're wondering she's

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<v Speaker 1>not really lying, but maybe she drove behind this truck

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<v Speaker 1>on a prior occasion before Tommy went missing and is

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<v Speaker 1>just misremembering the date.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds likely to me. But I also find

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<v Speaker 2>it strange that you're going to pursue this truck because

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<v Speaker 2>you think that his presence is very atypical and there's

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<v Speaker 2>something off putting about it. And you notice the placement

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<v Speaker 2>of the license plate while you're following this truck, but

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<v Speaker 2>you don't manage to take note of any of the

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<v Speaker 2>digits on the license plate. It seems like if you

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<v Speaker 2>were that worried that you're going to pursue this vehicle,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to notice that the license plate is in

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<v Speaker 2>the actual truck, like on the window, rather than where

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<v Speaker 2>a license plate typically is. But you're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>take note of even the first few digits.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is weird. So it just sounds like this

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<v Speaker 1>was a rather mundane event which had no significance, and

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<v Speaker 1>because Tommy just happened to go missing, she's suddenly thinking, ooh,

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<v Speaker 1>this could be a potential clue, even though it may

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<v Speaker 1>not have actually happened on the date Tommy went missing.

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<v Speaker 1>But I do find it kind of amusing that this

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<v Speaker 1>story was provided by the mother in law of Jennifer Klein,

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<v Speaker 1>the woman whose cat was shot by Larry. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of ironic that she's providing a story that almost

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<v Speaker 1>kind of supports Larry's innocence and presents an alternate scenario

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<v Speaker 1>where he was not responsible for Tommy's disappearance. Three months

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<v Speaker 1>after Tommy went missing, Larry contacted the authorities and said

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<v Speaker 1>that his four year old daughter, Karen, had informed him

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<v Speaker 1>that she actually witnessed Tommy get abducted from the front

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<v Speaker 1>yard by an unidentified couple. According to Larry, Carrie just

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<v Speaker 1>completely out of the blue told him this story about

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<v Speaker 1>how she had been looking for a shoe inside her

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<v Speaker 1>bedroom Clauset that morning when she looked out the window

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<v Speaker 1>and saw what she described as an ugly yellow pickup

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<v Speaker 1>truck pulling into the driveway. And she also shared the

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<v Speaker 1>same detail about the license plate being attached to the

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<v Speaker 1>back window rather than the rear bumper, so on the surface,

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<v Speaker 1>it seemed to match the story that Janette Climb provided.

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<v Speaker 1>And then Karen supposedly said that she saw a dark

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<v Speaker 1>haired white man with a beard and scruffy clothes and

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<v Speaker 1>a white woman with long blonde hair in a braid

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<v Speaker 1>or a ponytail exiting the truck and they proceeded to

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<v Speaker 1>take Tommy from the front yard and then put him

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<v Speaker 1>in the truck before they drove away. Apparently was so

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<v Speaker 1>frightened by this that she blocked it from her memory

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<v Speaker 1>for the next few months, and that's why it took

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<v Speaker 1>so long to come forward. But it does not sound

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<v Speaker 1>like investigators put much credence into Karen's story because she

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<v Speaker 1>convenely did not share this detail about the truck until

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<v Speaker 1>Jeanette Klein already came forward providing a description of a

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<v Speaker 1>truck that was pretty similar. So they started to think

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<v Speaker 1>that when Larry learned about Jeanette's story that he decided

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<v Speaker 1>to coach Karen and asked her to tell the authorities

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<v Speaker 1>this story about a similar looking pickup truck with these

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<v Speaker 1>mysterious couple abducting Tommy in order to take suspicious off himself.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm not saying that children don't disclose these things later,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think a four year old's memory unless you're

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<v Speaker 2>having a psychologist question this child in a very gentle

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<v Speaker 2>manner right after the events have transpired, and doing so gradually,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to get to the truth of what that child

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<v Speaker 2>did or did not see. And in this case, it

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<v Speaker 2>feels exactly like you said, Larry is seeing what Jeanette

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<v Speaker 2>has said about this pickup truck and thinking, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>if I coach Karen and I tell her that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what you saw, you very easily can manipulate

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<v Speaker 2>a child and to make them believe that that is

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<v Speaker 2>indeed what happened. So it wouldn't be a difficult thing

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<v Speaker 2>to do. But the fact that it took this long

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<v Speaker 2>for these details to emerge, it is very fishy. And

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<v Speaker 2>it seems in alignment with Larry coaching her and this

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<v Speaker 2>poor little girl. I can't imagine how difficult it would

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<v Speaker 2>be having your little brother just disappear and then be

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<v Speaker 2>manipulated potentially by your father into saying that you saw

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<v Speaker 2>it happen. So she likely believed that she saw it happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Even if that did not happen, she is going to

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<v Speaker 2>then believe that this is what she saw because her

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<v Speaker 2>father is painting that picture. So not only is he

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<v Speaker 2>likely responsible for the death of his son, but he's

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<v Speaker 2>then going to take response for traumatizing his daughter and

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<v Speaker 2>making her believe that she witnessed the events.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, Like children are so impressionable at that age,

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<v Speaker 1>at age four, So she probably legitimately believed this was

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<v Speaker 1>what happened at first, just because her father's telling her that,

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<v Speaker 1>because at that age, you're going to believe everything that

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<v Speaker 1>your parents tell you. And she had also been interviewed

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<v Speaker 1>like three times during the original stages of the investigation,

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<v Speaker 1>but then just suddenly came out with this story three

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<v Speaker 1>months after the fact, completely out of the blues. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's why law enforcement didn't believe it. And if you

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<v Speaker 1>look at the geography of the area, like the Gibson

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<v Speaker 1>residents is literally out in the middle of nowhere and

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<v Speaker 1>from what I can tell, their driveway was so long

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<v Speaker 1>that if you were driving on the road where Jeanette

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<v Speaker 1>saw this pickup truck, you wouldn't be able to see

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<v Speaker 1>a child playing out in the front yard of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gibson residents because there are a lot of trees and

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<v Speaker 1>it's so far away. So it's not like this couple

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<v Speaker 1>is just cruising around this remote area and saying, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a child playing unsupervised out on the front yard,

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<v Speaker 1>let's just go and kidnap them. So you would actually

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<v Speaker 1>have to turn up the driveway and see that Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>was there. And it's like, even if like this couple

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<v Speaker 1>had set their eyes on Tommy in a previous occasion

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<v Speaker 1>and wanted to kidnap him directly, it's like, how could

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<v Speaker 1>they have known that he would just happen to be

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<v Speaker 1>playing outside alone on the front yard at that particular

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<v Speaker 1>time of day, because they're not going to notice them

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<v Speaker 1>until they take that drive up the driveway, and of

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<v Speaker 1>course that only runs the risk of them being seen

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<v Speaker 1>by Tommy's parents. So that has always been the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>hole in the idea that Tommy was the victim of

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<v Speaker 1>a stranger abduction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel like in order to have the scenario

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<v Speaker 2>be present where Tommy is unattended and playing in the

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<v Speaker 2>front yard, where you've got this clear line of sight

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<v Speaker 2>and you're able to abduct him, it would take staking

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<v Speaker 2>out the property and it would take probably a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of practice runs because you would show up, there would

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<v Speaker 2>be a parent there, and you wouldn't be able to

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<v Speaker 2>proceed with the abductions, so your vehicle would be seen

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<v Speaker 2>multiple times, Like this is the middle of nowhere. These

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<v Speaker 2>things don't go unnoticed. So the probability, like you said,

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<v Speaker 2>of them, these potential strangers, being able to pull up

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<v Speaker 2>and get Tommy at this perfect moment when there's nobody around,

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<v Speaker 2>it just seems so unlikely.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And I could believe this if this was

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<v Speaker 1>a suburban neighborhood, that just a complete a child could

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<v Speaker 1>be abductive from it by a complete stranger while playing

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<v Speaker 1>in the front yard, but not in rural Oregon, like

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<v Speaker 1>right out in the middle on this remote country road.

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<v Speaker 1>So in October of nineteen ninety one, seven months after

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy originally went missing, the case was featured on Unsolved Mysteries,

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<v Speaker 1>and in Larry's defense, he was apparently the one who

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<v Speaker 1>approached the show and asked him to feature his son's

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<v Speaker 1>disappearance and agreed to be interviewed, which is a very

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<v Speaker 1>raising thing to do when you're guilty. But this is

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<v Speaker 1>not the first documented case where someone who was suspected

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<v Speaker 1>in a murder decided to approach unsolved mysteries and ask

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<v Speaker 1>them to feature the story. And it could just be

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<v Speaker 1>pure narcissism where they figure, well, if I get on

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<v Speaker 1>TV give my side of the story, Everyone's going to

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<v Speaker 1>believe me, and I'm going to be this very sympathetic

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<v Speaker 1>figure who has lost his son. But unfortunately it backfired

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<v Speaker 1>on Larry because, like I said, he gave this very unemotional,

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<v Speaker 1>monotone interviews, so that everyone who watched it just had

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<v Speaker 1>a very unfavorable impression of him. Like who goes on

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<v Speaker 1>national TV and says, I'm going to admit that I

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<v Speaker 1>pulled out a gun and shot a straight cat in

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<v Speaker 1>my yard and think that a nationally televised audience is

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<v Speaker 1>going to like me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that speaks to somebody who really doesn't understand how

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<v Speaker 2>he's perceived by the rest of the world, which would

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<v Speaker 2>lend credence to the idea that maybe he was putting

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<v Speaker 2>up red flags for law enforcement while he was a

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<v Speaker 2>sheriff's deputy, which is why they then went ahead with

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<v Speaker 2>charging him and were able to basically accept that a

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<v Speaker 2>member of the sheriff's department could be capable of doing this.

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<v Speaker 2>Is if he was already maybe rubbing people the wrong way.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody that can just so openly speak about murdering cats

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<v Speaker 2>just tells me that this is a person who probably

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<v Speaker 2>in the workplace would manage to irk multiple people.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I'm thinking. That he'd already done something prior

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<v Speaker 1>to Tommy's disappearance to rub his fellow coworkers the wrong way,

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<v Speaker 1>which is why they believed he might have been capable

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<v Speaker 1>of something like this. And of course, during his interview,

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<v Speaker 1>he's not necessarily sending out a public plea for information

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<v Speaker 1>saying please come forward if you have information about my son,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to find him. He's spending a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>time complaining that law enforcement is looking at him as

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<v Speaker 1>a suspect, so parts of his interview are all about me, me, me,

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<v Speaker 1>rather than about my missing son. And they did interview

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<v Speaker 1>Judy on the segment, and she did defend Larry. She

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<v Speaker 1>still at that point said that she did not believe

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<v Speaker 1>he had anything to do with Tommy's disappearance and believed

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<v Speaker 1>that he had been abducted by a stranger. And the

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<v Speaker 1>segment had this really intriguing piece of evidence where Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Stack appeared on camera holding a letter saying that it

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<v Speaker 1>had been sent to law enforcement and was signed by

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<v Speaker 1>an anonymous person referring to themselves as Spot in the Road.

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<v Speaker 1>And they wouldn't release the contents of this letter, but

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<v Speaker 1>they said it might have been important information about Tommy's disappearance.

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<v Speaker 1>So Robert Stack was urging this letter writer to come forward.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know, for so many years, like unsolved mysteries,

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<v Speaker 1>fans were intrigued of who was spot in the road?

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<v Speaker 1>What information did they have? And when I heard that

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<v Speaker 1>spot on the road, I kept thinking, is someone implying

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<v Speaker 1>that Tommy's body maybe buried at a spot in the

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<v Speaker 1>road somewhere, like at a construction site or something.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's really interesting, And I mean it could mean

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<v Speaker 2>multiple things, especially when you're out in the middle of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Technically anywhere off the road could be a spot in

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<v Speaker 2>the road. So is it a clue or is it

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<v Speaker 2>just like this vast generalization.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. I will reveal what it was later on.

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<v Speaker 1>But I remember when I watched this on television back

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<v Speaker 1>in the day, I was just very intrigued by this

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<v Speaker 1>and wondered who this mysterious author was. So it was

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<v Speaker 1>in January of nineteen ninety two, only a few months

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<v Speaker 1>after the Unsolved Mysteries segment aired, where Larry decided to

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<v Speaker 1>formally resign from the Douglas County Sheriff's office and said

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<v Speaker 1>that he wanted to move out of Oregon because the

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<v Speaker 1>stress of the whole situation was making it too difficult

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<v Speaker 1>for he and his family to live there, so they

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<v Speaker 1>decided to return to their native Montana, and believe it

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<v Speaker 1>or not, they actually went on to have more kids

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<v Speaker 1>because they had two more daughters named Lisa and Christina,

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<v Speaker 1>and Tommy's case would get some more national attention in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety three when his photo was featured in the

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<v Speaker 1>Soul Asylum video Runaway Train, and by the time nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety four rolled around, the marriage between Larry and Judith

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<v Speaker 1>finally fell apart. She decided to move away from Montana

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<v Speaker 1>with her three daughters, and interestingly enough, she went to

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<v Speaker 1>the town of Persian, Iowa, and moved in with Larry's

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<v Speaker 1>half sister, Debbie, which is very unusual that someone would

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<v Speaker 1>break up in a marriage and then move in with

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<v Speaker 1>their ex husband's relative one of their siblings. While this happened,

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<v Speaker 1>Larry remained in Montana and moved in with his grandmother

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<v Speaker 1>and started working as an insurance salesman. But Judith would

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<v Speaker 1>say that pretty much the big breaking point is that

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<v Speaker 1>they were constantly having arguments about Tommy's disappearance, and they

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<v Speaker 1>finally had a confrontation where Larry started blaming Judy for

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy's disappearance and accused her of not watching him closely

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<v Speaker 1>enough while he was out jogging, and that's what made

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<v Speaker 1>her finally decide I'm getting away with him, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>leaving with my three daughters and I'm going to move

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<v Speaker 1>in with his half sister.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that seems like they've formed some kind of support

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<v Speaker 2>group for people that have been wronged by Larry.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, pretty much. So that's what makes me think of

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<v Speaker 1>the dynamic between Larry and his family, because it seems

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<v Speaker 1>obvious his half sister didn't like him too much, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course Larry tried to throw his half brother Michael

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<v Speaker 1>under the bus during the original investigation so finally, in

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<v Speaker 1>April fourteenth, nineteen ninety four, Larry was indicted by an

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<v Speaker 1>Oregon grand jury on the charges of intentional murder and

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<v Speaker 1>murder by abuse, and even though Tommy had still not

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<v Speaker 1>been found. The rain reason that Larry was arrested because

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<v Speaker 1>his daughter Karen had changed her original story about seeing

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy get abducted by an unidentified couple with a pickup truck.

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<v Speaker 1>According to Judy, only eleven days after she and her

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<v Speaker 1>children relocated to Iowa and moved in with Larry's half sister, Debbie,

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<v Speaker 1>Karen suddenly shared a new story about how on the

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<v Speaker 1>morning of Tommy's disappearance, she looked out her bedroom window

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<v Speaker 1>and saw Larry get angry at Tommy and physically abuse him.

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<v Speaker 1>She said that Larry pushed Tommy hit him across the

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<v Speaker 1>cheek while holding his hands behind his back, and then

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<v Speaker 1>he proceeded to hit the boy three more times before

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<v Speaker 1>he went limp and fell to the ground. And then

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<v Speaker 1>Larry put Tommy's body into the back of his patrol

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<v Speaker 1>car and drove away, and when he returned to the

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<v Speaker 1>car port sometime later, Tommy was no longer in the vehicle,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Larry broke a branch off a tree in

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<v Speaker 1>order to sweep away the tire marks and the dirt,

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<v Speaker 1>and Karen said that she was left so frightened by

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<v Speaker 1>witnessing this that she hid inside the bedroom closet and

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<v Speaker 1>stayed silent about what she had seen until a couple

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<v Speaker 1>months later when her father told her to share this

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<v Speaker 1>story about the couple in the pickup truck. But once

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<v Speaker 1>Karen shared this story with both her mother and Larry's

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<v Speaker 1>half sister, Debbie, they contacted the Oregon State Police and

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<v Speaker 1>they finally decided this is the one key piece of

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<v Speaker 1>evidence we finally need to file charges. So Larry was

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<v Speaker 1>indicted and then extradited from Montana back to Oregon.

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<v Speaker 2>What an absolute nightmare, poor little Karen having to witness

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<v Speaker 2>this and being so scared that she's got to go

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<v Speaker 2>and hide in a closet, and then to have her

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<v Speaker 2>father manipulate her into lying and saying a whole other

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<v Speaker 2>story about Tommy being abducted, knowing full well what she

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<v Speaker 2>saw and if who knows which parts she was conflating

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<v Speaker 2>in her own mind because she's so young. It's horrific

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<v Speaker 2>to think that Larry would put her in this position.

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<v Speaker 2>But I guess it's no surprise. If you're willing to

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<v Speaker 2>do that to your son, then you're willing to do

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<v Speaker 2>almost anything in order to cover it up, it seems,

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<v Speaker 2>including traumatizing your own daughter and then exposing her to

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<v Speaker 2>all of these big scary people in law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I remember how shocked I was by this update

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00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.039
<v Speaker 1>when it originally happened, because back when I first saw

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<v Speaker 1>Larry on Unsolved Mysteries, I still disliked him, but I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 1>if he did cover up his son's disappearance, at least

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<v Speaker 1>it was a legitimate accident by a stray bullet and

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't mean to harm anyone. But here we have

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<v Speaker 1>a story that paints him in an even worse light,

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<v Speaker 1>where he like physically abused a two year old and

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<v Speaker 1>beat him up, and then disposed of his body and

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00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.840
<v Speaker 1>covered up the whole thing, and then manipulated his terrified

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<v Speaker 1>daughter into coming up with a fake cover story until

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00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.279
<v Speaker 1>she finally got brave enough to finally share the truth.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't think that's a coincidence that like Karen

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly came out with this story after her mother finally

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<v Speaker 1>got her away from her father and she was in

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<v Speaker 1>a safe space like thousands of miles away from him

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<v Speaker 1>and could finally come forward. So that's why, even though

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<v Speaker 1>she was only four years old at the time she

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly witnessed this, that law enforcement was able to believe her.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a miracle that Karen was able to

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<v Speaker 2>remember those details, because our memories are so fallible, and

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<v Speaker 2>when we're young, traumatic memories and they may become repressed,

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<v Speaker 2>we might remember them. There's so many factors that go

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<v Speaker 2>into what we can recall and what we can't. And

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<v Speaker 2>as somebody who personally does remember several traumatic memories from

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<v Speaker 2>being three or four years old, I know how concrete

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<v Speaker 2>they feel. I don't know how solid they actually are.

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<v Speaker 2>They're just the perception of my little three year old brain.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the fact that Karen was able to hold

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<v Speaker 2>onto this memory, especially in the face of being manipulated

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<v Speaker 2>by her father who's trying to implant a completely different memory,

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00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sure that he spent a great deal of

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00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.519
<v Speaker 2>time doing so, so for her to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>hold onto that, to want to get justice for Tommy,

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<v Speaker 2>and to be able to share that with her aunt

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<v Speaker 2>and her mom, when, like you said, Robin, she was

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<v Speaker 2>in a safe space, because I'm sure when she was

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<v Speaker 2>around Larry there was nothing safe about that space.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh definitely, Like when we talk about Larry's trial, a

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<v Speaker 1>number of their stories are going to come out about

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00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and paint him in an even more horrible light, if

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<v Speaker 1>that's possible, so you can understand why a four year

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<v Speaker 1>old would have been absolutely terrified of him back in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety one. So Larry's trial would begin in Douglas

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<v Speaker 1>County Circuit Court in January of nineteen ninety five. But

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<v Speaker 1>it sounds like opinions in the community were still very

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<v Speaker 1>divided that even though these horrible things came out about Larry,

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<v Speaker 1>it sounds like he still had some supporters who did

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<v Speaker 1>not believe he would have been capable of doing something

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00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.319
<v Speaker 1>like this to his son. I guess because he had

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<v Speaker 1>been a sheriff's deputy and maybe there was still enough

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00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.400
<v Speaker 1>respect for authority that they didn't believe someone in that

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00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.319
<v Speaker 1>position would have been capable about this. But I know

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<v Speaker 1>that when the trial took place, they interviewed a local

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<v Speaker 1>resident named Terry Reid, who shared this quote. Quote it

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<v Speaker 1>used to be a saying that you don't talk about

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<v Speaker 1>sex and religion here. Well, in this town. You don't

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<v Speaker 1>talk about sex, religion, and Larry Gibson. It gets into

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<v Speaker 1>some pretty heated discussions. End quote.

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<v Speaker 2>Ooh, I can imagine Larry would be one of those

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<v Speaker 2>people where at the dinner table if you brought him up,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure he was polarizing, But I've got to imagine

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<v Speaker 2>that he wouldn't have that many ardent defenders.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I'm thinking, Like, it's not like he had

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<v Speaker 1>lived in the area his whole life. He had grown

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<v Speaker 1>up in Montana, and I think he'd only been living

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<v Speaker 1>there for about three years at the time Tommy went missing.

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<v Speaker 1>So even though he could have made some friends, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think he's going to have some like old childhood friends.

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<v Speaker 1>There's people like that, or have like a family living

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<v Speaker 1>in the community who would want to go out of

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<v Speaker 1>their way to defend him. But I guess it's just

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00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.440
<v Speaker 1>because maybe back then in the small town communities there

378
00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.680
<v Speaker 1>was more of an innocent view of law enforcement than

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<v Speaker 1>they figured well, if they wore a uniform and were

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<v Speaker 1>an officer of the law, they couldn't do something like

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<v Speaker 1>kill their own child.

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<v Speaker 2>And I also think for like dinner party conversation in

383
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<v Speaker 2>the nineties, are you really bringing up missing and potentially

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<v Speaker 2>murdered children.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I guess I could see it because

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00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.400
<v Speaker 1>in that particular area, they didn't have like a lot

387
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.759
<v Speaker 1>of missing children's cases. Like this was the first time

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00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.039
<v Speaker 1>this area got national headlines. So I can only imagine

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<v Speaker 1>after it was featured on Unsolved Mysteries that there were

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of heated discussions about it.

391
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<v Speaker 2>But like, it makes me wonder, were the heated discussions

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<v Speaker 2>or was it like not in our town. Let's sweep

393
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.240
<v Speaker 2>it under the rug and pretend that it didn't happen,

394
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.400
<v Speaker 2>because true crime conversations in the nineties are not like

395
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.279
<v Speaker 2>they are now. They're not like these acceptable conversations that

396
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.440
<v Speaker 2>we have out in the open. There were things that

397
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.599
<v Speaker 2>were done kind of in the corner, hush hush, like, oh,

398
00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:23.000
<v Speaker 2>you find true crime interesting, you like forensic files? Me too.

399
00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean I was a child, But I'm assuming that's

400
00:20:25.400 --> 00:20:26.519
<v Speaker 2>how it went at the time.

401
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I definitely, I'm sure. Because there were so few

402
00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:31.839
<v Speaker 1>true crime shows on that time, it was still more

403
00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:34.240
<v Speaker 1>of a taboo subject, and a lot of these small

404
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:37.240
<v Speaker 1>towns would talk about it unless it directly affected them

405
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.039
<v Speaker 1>and happened in that particular place. So when Larry went

406
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.200
<v Speaker 1>on trial, obviously, the police had to change their original

407
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.079
<v Speaker 1>theory about Tommy being killed by a stray bullet. They

408
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:49.440
<v Speaker 1>suspected that when Larry left his home to go jogging

409
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.480
<v Speaker 1>that morning, Tommy attempted to follow him, but Larry told

410
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.839
<v Speaker 1>him to go back to his house and play outside

411
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.200
<v Speaker 1>and wait for his sister to come out. But shortly thereafter,

412
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Larry then fired his shot into the cap. So the

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00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.839
<v Speaker 1>prosecution speculated that after hearing the noise, Tommy walked out

414
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.839
<v Speaker 1>into the woods to see what was going on, and

415
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.880
<v Speaker 1>when Larry spotted his son, he became angry at him

416
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.720
<v Speaker 1>for disobeying him, so he picked up Tommy, took him

417
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.839
<v Speaker 1>to the car port, and flew into such a violent

418
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.039
<v Speaker 1>rage that he hit Tommy multiple times and wound up

419
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.119
<v Speaker 1>killing him while Karen witnessed it from her bedroom window.

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00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:23.960
<v Speaker 1>And when Larry noticed that Carry had been watching him,

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00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.039
<v Speaker 1>he decided to place Tommy's body inside his patrol car,

422
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.440
<v Speaker 1>drove it behind a woodpile on his property, and then

423
00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.359
<v Speaker 1>he proceeded to put Tommy's body inside a large white

424
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.680
<v Speaker 1>plastic garbage bag and placed it inside the trunk before

425
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.880
<v Speaker 1>he headed out jogging to create an alibi for himself

426
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.359
<v Speaker 1>so that his wife wouldn't find out what she had

427
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:46.680
<v Speaker 1>done to their son. And they theorized that Larry used

428
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:49.000
<v Speaker 1>this forty seven minute window to come up with a

429
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.480
<v Speaker 1>scenario for how he's going to cover up the whole

430
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.759
<v Speaker 1>thing where he was going to dispose of Tommy's body.

431
00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.720
<v Speaker 1>Then he returned home and when Judy told him that

432
00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.319
<v Speaker 1>Tommy was missing, that's when he contacted the authority, and

433
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.400
<v Speaker 1>at his first available opportunity, he drove the patrol car

434
00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:06.319
<v Speaker 1>off the property and disposed of Tommy's body in a

435
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:08.200
<v Speaker 1>remote area.

436
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:10.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know if I should be disgusted

437
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.759
<v Speaker 2>or impressed that he was able to find a place

438
00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:17.319
<v Speaker 2>to dispose of Tommy's body where it's never been found.

439
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.799
<v Speaker 2>But you, like you said, this is such a vast,

440
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:25.839
<v Speaker 2>unpopulated area that it would create so much, so many

441
00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.799
<v Speaker 2>square miles to search, and it's not like these are

442
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.079
<v Speaker 2>all well worn hiking paths. So if Larry's was familiar

443
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:35.519
<v Speaker 2>enough with the area, which he lived there for several years,

444
00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:37.920
<v Speaker 2>so he would have been he would know that there

445
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.599
<v Speaker 2>would be spots that even if you're searching for a

446
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>missing child, you're not going to look here, So it

447
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 2>could have been a situation where he could have just

448
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.319
<v Speaker 2>dumped the body somewhere. He didn't even have to have

449
00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:54.319
<v Speaker 2>buried Tommy necessarily. We're assuming that he likely did more

450
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.680
<v Speaker 2>cover up than just dump a body in that white

451
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.680
<v Speaker 2>plastic bag out in the open somewhere. But he could

452
00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>have just Scott Lucky. I don't know how much of

453
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.680
<v Speaker 2>this is organization and how much is just dumb luck.

454
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.759
<v Speaker 1>Interestingly, enough, the prosecution would push forward a theory about

455
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.000
<v Speaker 1>what he did with Tommy's body. He might recall that

456
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.720
<v Speaker 1>when he finally admitted to taking the patrol car off

457
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.279
<v Speaker 1>the property, he said that he searched a nearby rest

458
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:19.559
<v Speaker 1>area on Interstate five, and it turned out that Larry

459
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.160
<v Speaker 1>had a past history of whenever he shot stray cats

460
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:24.160
<v Speaker 1>on the property, he would actually go to the rest

461
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.960
<v Speaker 1>area and put them in the trash bin there. So

462
00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 1>they were beginning to wonder it could he have been

463
00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:31.119
<v Speaker 1>brazen enough that he thought he was going to go

464
00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.559
<v Speaker 1>to this rest area and even put Tommy's body inside

465
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.319
<v Speaker 1>the trash bin while he was inside a plastic bag.

466
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:40.039
<v Speaker 1>But of course nothing was found there, and they theorized

467
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.400
<v Speaker 1>that maybe Larry did originally go there but decided against

468
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.480
<v Speaker 1>disposing of his son's body because he discovered there were

469
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.319
<v Speaker 1>too many people or too many cars there. But there

470
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.559
<v Speaker 1>was also a nearby logging road known as Swamp Creek Road,

471
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.839
<v Speaker 1>which had a remote gravel pit, and investigators claimed there

472
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.119
<v Speaker 1>was one occasion when they took Larry to this spot

473
00:23:57.400 --> 00:24:00.680
<v Speaker 1>and he reportedly acted nervous and upsets. All they wondered,

474
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.319
<v Speaker 1>maybe this is where he actually disposed of Tommy's body.

475
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:06.759
<v Speaker 1>And even though he did search this area, it was

476
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.799
<v Speaker 1>known for having bears around. So one possibility is that

477
00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.200
<v Speaker 1>even if Tommy's body was there, a bear may have

478
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.880
<v Speaker 1>carried it off somewhere or disposed of the remains, and

479
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 1>Larry just got incredibly lucky that by the time they

480
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:19.319
<v Speaker 1>searched there there was nothing left to find.

481
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, a gravel pit could

482
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.720
<v Speaker 2>make sense, but yeah, if you bury the body just

483
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>under the surface, the chance of animal predation in an

484
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.400
<v Speaker 2>area that's known for having lots of bears is pretty great.

485
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:35.680
<v Speaker 2>So he may have just gotten lucky, and it could

486
00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 2>have nothing to do with him being well organized, because

487
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:40.359
<v Speaker 2>I would think it would be a really poor move

488
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.599
<v Speaker 2>to put Tommy's body in the garbage at the rest area,

489
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.039
<v Speaker 2>if it was a known pattern for him to dispose

490
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:48.519
<v Speaker 2>of dead cats there, and maybe because he was in

491
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement, he at least had the foresight to go, oh,

492
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.000
<v Speaker 2>I've done this before, So of course they're going to

493
00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:57.000
<v Speaker 2>look into this as being a possible dump site for Tommy.

494
00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it seems ridiculous, like if you put

495
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.599
<v Speaker 1>your son's body in a public trash band, they are

496
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:04.559
<v Speaker 1>going to find it, Like, I think who's ever gonna

497
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:06.799
<v Speaker 1>collect it is going to notice a child's body in there.

498
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:09.079
<v Speaker 1>But I think it says a lot about Larry's mentality

499
00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.119
<v Speaker 1>where he has no qualms. I'm gonna shoot straight cats

500
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:12.920
<v Speaker 1>and then I'm going to go to a public rest

501
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.480
<v Speaker 1>area to dispose of them rather than just burying them

502
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:17.559
<v Speaker 1>on the ground or something, which just kind of shows that,

503
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:19.960
<v Speaker 1>regardless of what he did to Tommy, he was already

504
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:23.920
<v Speaker 1>a very weird person. So, since they did not have

505
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:27.119
<v Speaker 1>Tommy's body and there was no physical evidence to prove

506
00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.640
<v Speaker 1>any of this, the case against Larry would pretty much

507
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.960
<v Speaker 1>rely heavily on Karen's testimony, and the prosecution really went

508
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.000
<v Speaker 1>all out to try to make Karen look like a

509
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.880
<v Speaker 1>very sympathetic, believable witness. At this particular point, she was

510
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:42.039
<v Speaker 1>eight years old, even though she was four at the

511
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:44.279
<v Speaker 1>time of Tommy's disappearance. But when she went on the

512
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.400
<v Speaker 1>witness stand, she was actually clutching a teddy bear in

513
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:50.599
<v Speaker 1>her arms because it made her feel more comfortable. And

514
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.440
<v Speaker 1>she said that when Larry realized that she had seen

515
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 1>him kill Tommy, he told her that if she did

516
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.920
<v Speaker 1>not keep her mouth shut, she would either go to

517
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.920
<v Speaker 1>jail or the same thing and happen to might happen

518
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.319
<v Speaker 1>to her as well, which is why she was able

519
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:05.759
<v Speaker 1>to remain silent about it until a few months later,

520
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.279
<v Speaker 1>when Larry ordered her to tell the police a completely

521
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.480
<v Speaker 1>different story about Tommy getting abducted by a couple in

522
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.960
<v Speaker 1>a pickup truck. And of course, she said that I

523
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.359
<v Speaker 1>was too afraid to share this until I moved to

524
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:19.720
<v Speaker 1>Iowa with my mother a thousand miles away. It was

525
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:21.759
<v Speaker 1>in a safe space where I could finally come out

526
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 1>with this story. And when asked under cross examination if

527
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.160
<v Speaker 1>she still loved her father, Karen simply replied, no.

528
00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:33.119
<v Speaker 2>Wow, poor Karen, She's been put through so much. It's

529
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.240
<v Speaker 2>one thing to lose your brother, but it's a whole

530
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.079
<v Speaker 2>other thing to be put into this untenable position by

531
00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.279
<v Speaker 2>this person that you are supposed to trust, supposed to

532
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.519
<v Speaker 2>protect you. And it's very clear that Larry did not

533
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.279
<v Speaker 2>protect Karen. He put her in harm's way multiple times.

534
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.400
<v Speaker 2>He manipulated her, and it sounds like he gas lit her,

535
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.240
<v Speaker 2>and he really tried to form this narrative and in

536
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the end it didn't work, and everybody seemed to unite

537
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 2>against him, which is at the very least, it seems

538
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.599
<v Speaker 2>like everybody in his life saw him for who he

539
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:05.279
<v Speaker 2>truly was.

540
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.839
<v Speaker 1>Oh, definitely. And the thing is that they would bring

541
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 1>his half sister, Judy to testify in the stand, and

542
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:15.200
<v Speaker 1>she gave what I think is more damning testimony, saying

543
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:17.720
<v Speaker 1>that a few months after Tommy went missing, she actually

544
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:21.279
<v Speaker 1>received a frantic, tearful phone call from Larry, who said

545
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.240
<v Speaker 1>that this was the very day when he was confronted

546
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 1>by law enforcement about having potentially been responsible for Tommy's disappearance,

547
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.519
<v Speaker 1>and he apparently made a tearful confession to Debbie that

548
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.400
<v Speaker 1>he had killed his own son and he was worried

549
00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:35.599
<v Speaker 1>that Judy would never forgive him for it, and he

550
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:38.039
<v Speaker 1>told Debbie so that he might need money to post

551
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.960
<v Speaker 1>bail if he was arrested. And years later, when Judy

552
00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:44.079
<v Speaker 1>and the children moved in with Debbie, she claimed there

553
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:46.079
<v Speaker 1>was an incident where they were watching an episode of

554
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.640
<v Speaker 1>The Flintstones on television which showed a picture of a

555
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.200
<v Speaker 1>large hole, and upon seeing this, Karen supposedly said that

556
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.079
<v Speaker 1>she didn't want her daddy to put her in a

557
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.559
<v Speaker 1>large hole like he did with Tommy. And shortly thereafter

558
00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:01.319
<v Speaker 1>that's when Karen finally came clean shared her whole story

559
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 1>about having witnessed her father killed Tommy. And I'm sure

560
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.720
<v Speaker 1>that made a major impression on the jury that Larry's

561
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 1>own half sister was willing to share this story on

562
00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.039
<v Speaker 1>the witness stand and paint him in a damning light.

563
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.519
<v Speaker 2>To think like this little four year old child she

564
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.799
<v Speaker 2>was put in a position where she saw this happened

565
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.319
<v Speaker 2>to her little brother, Tommy, who I'm sure she loved

566
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.039
<v Speaker 2>very much, and then to live in fear. We don't

567
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:29.680
<v Speaker 2>know what Larry had said to her. Did he threaten

568
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:31.000
<v Speaker 2>that he was going to put her in a hole,

569
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.400
<v Speaker 2>or that if she told anybody that he would do

570
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.880
<v Speaker 2>the same thing to her. We can't know exactly what

571
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Larry said to Karen. But it was obviously he either

572
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:43.119
<v Speaker 2>demonstrated with his actions or with his words, or with

573
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.279
<v Speaker 2>both that it wasn't in her best interest to come

574
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.640
<v Speaker 2>forward while she was in the home with Larry, But

575
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.000
<v Speaker 2>once she was in that safe space and once she

576
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 2>started sharing after seeing that hole like that is just

577
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:58.640
<v Speaker 2>so heartbreaking, this little girl watching the Flintstones and being

578
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.720
<v Speaker 2>triggered by this of a whole and thinking about her

579
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:04.279
<v Speaker 2>little brother and how she doesn't want to have the

580
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 2>same faith before her.

581
00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:09.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, definitely. And this pretty much would get corroborated

582
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.759
<v Speaker 1>when Judy took the stand to testify, because she acknowledged

583
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.599
<v Speaker 1>that at the outset, she legitimately did not believe that

584
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Larry had anything to do with Tommy's disappearance until she

585
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.440
<v Speaker 1>heard Karen's story, but she would also share some horrific

586
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.720
<v Speaker 1>stories of physical abuse that her and her children experienced

587
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 1>during the marriage. She said at the time Tommy went missing,

588
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.599
<v Speaker 1>Judy had been taking some college classes on the side,

589
00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:34.640
<v Speaker 1>and this apparently made Larry angry because he had to

590
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.319
<v Speaker 1>watch over the kids much more frequently than usual, and

591
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:40.720
<v Speaker 1>this apparently caused his stress levels to rise and could

592
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.119
<v Speaker 1>explain why he just lost it on Tommy on that

593
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:46.839
<v Speaker 1>particular day. She also recounted an incident before Tommy went

594
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:49.480
<v Speaker 1>missing when she came into the kitchen and found Tommy

595
00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.480
<v Speaker 1>screaming and lying on the floor next to his fallen

596
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.440
<v Speaker 1>high chair with Larry standing over him, and he also

597
00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:57.759
<v Speaker 1>had red marks on his face, and when Judy told

598
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Larry not to hit the children so hard, he repl well,

599
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I did hit Tommy, but I didn't hit him bath hard,

600
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:06.240
<v Speaker 1>so he's just over exaggerating. And she also said that

601
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:08.680
<v Speaker 1>Larry would get aggressive with Tommy, pushed and whenever the

602
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 1>boy got into his way, and there was also an

603
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.599
<v Speaker 1>additional incident where Larry pushed Care into the ground because

604
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.720
<v Speaker 1>she was interfering with his television watching. And after they

605
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.559
<v Speaker 1>moved away to Montana and Judy had two more daughters,

606
00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:25.640
<v Speaker 1>she said that there were accounts of abuse for Katrina

607
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.240
<v Speaker 1>and Lisa, even though they were also both just infants

608
00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 1>at the time. She actually said that after returning home

609
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:34.240
<v Speaker 1>from the hospital after giving birth to their youngest daughter, Katrina,

610
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.480
<v Speaker 1>she noticed red marks on the leg of Lisa, and

611
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 1>when Larry tried to say the remarks were rugburns, Judy

612
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:43.039
<v Speaker 1>said that she later witnessed him hit Lisa when she

613
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 1>got in his way and it left similar looking red marks.

614
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:48.920
<v Speaker 1>So this is painting picture of Larry as someone who

615
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.160
<v Speaker 1>never should have had children to begin with, because he

616
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:54.000
<v Speaker 1>just has this huge temper he is set off by

617
00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:57.200
<v Speaker 1>like the literalist infractions, So it sounds more and more

618
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.720
<v Speaker 1>believable that he could have just snapped and killed Tommy

619
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:00.880
<v Speaker 1>on the he went missing.

620
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's sounding like somebody who gets very frustrated by

621
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:08.720
<v Speaker 2>children and who acts out physically and in an aggressive manner,

622
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.039
<v Speaker 2>and somebody who lacks the patience and the fortitude to

623
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:16.839
<v Speaker 2>be able to go okay, like some of the inner strength.

624
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Children are difficult, you accept that, And it sounds like

625
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.480
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't the type of person who was going to

626
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>accept that his children were going to be difficult or

627
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.359
<v Speaker 2>his wife would be quote unquote difficult if people didn't

628
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.039
<v Speaker 2>act in alignment with the way that Larry believed that

629
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 2>they should. It seems like he went all corporal punishment

630
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.839
<v Speaker 2>on them, which is just not an acceptable way to

631
00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:40.519
<v Speaker 2>treat your wife for children.

632
00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Especially at that age, like getting so angry at like

633
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 1>a two year old just because they interfere with your

634
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.839
<v Speaker 1>television watching and the way he's just trying to pawn

635
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:49.759
<v Speaker 1>it off on his wife's saying, well, it's your fault

636
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.119
<v Speaker 1>because you're taking college classes, so now I have more

637
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 1>responsibilities and I just can't handle that. I just don't

638
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.680
<v Speaker 1>have the patience. So he definitely sounds like a narcissist

639
00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:59.960
<v Speaker 1>where nothing he ever does is ever wrong.

640
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, and I feel like the fact that his wife's

641
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 2>attention is directed outwards at bettering her future, bettering their future,

642
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:11.559
<v Speaker 2>he should be excited about that, but what it's doing

643
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:13.960
<v Speaker 2>is taking time away from the home and time away

644
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.839
<v Speaker 2>from attention that could be put squarely on him. And

645
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:19.039
<v Speaker 2>I feel like he's just the type of person where

646
00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.400
<v Speaker 2>he needs to be that focal point. He needs to

647
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.119
<v Speaker 2>be the center of the family, the center of everything,

648
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:28.039
<v Speaker 2>and if anything deviates from that, then he's going to

649
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:29.720
<v Speaker 2>act out like a petulant child.

650
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.759
<v Speaker 1>Yep. And that totally sounds like it would fit his

651
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:35.880
<v Speaker 1>personality there And as you can imagine, this whole trial

652
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.839
<v Speaker 1>did not paint him at all any flattering light. But

653
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.440
<v Speaker 1>to be fair, the alternate scenario pushed forward by the

654
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.359
<v Speaker 1>defense is that they thought that Karen may have been

655
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 1>coached again by her mother Judy after she separated from Larry,

656
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.319
<v Speaker 1>and that because she wanted to get back at him,

657
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.680
<v Speaker 1>she pushed forward this false scenario about Karen witnessed Larry

658
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>kill Tommy and then went forward to the authority so

659
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:58.880
<v Speaker 1>that he could finally be arrested and sent to jail.

660
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 1>And it is it is true that shortly after following

661
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:05.240
<v Speaker 1>her brother's disappearance, Karen have been placed under hypnosis by

662
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.279
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement in order to improve her memory. And she

663
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.960
<v Speaker 1>never said anything about seeing your father hit Tommy. And

664
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.359
<v Speaker 1>even though we know that hypnosis is not one hundred

665
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.559
<v Speaker 1>percent reliable, I do wonder, like with a four year old,

666
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:20.319
<v Speaker 1>if you have witnessed such a traumatic event, would you

667
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:22.519
<v Speaker 1>be able to keep it inside and not say anything

668
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:24.839
<v Speaker 1>about it if you were subject to hypnosis at that

669
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:25.640
<v Speaker 1>young age.

670
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Hypnosis is such a gray area, and that there are

671
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 2>practitioners and hypnotherapists that are extremely skilled and are able

672
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:38.279
<v Speaker 2>to get information out of people. And it seems it's

673
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:41.400
<v Speaker 2>just like psychics right in that there are some that

674
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:44.960
<v Speaker 2>are incredibly skilled, but there are others that they feel

675
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:48.519
<v Speaker 2>like snake oil salesmen in that what they're giving is

676
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:52.200
<v Speaker 2>just these broad generalizations and they're not actually able to

677
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Speaker 2>give anybody anything definitive. They're more reading the signals that

678
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:59.440
<v Speaker 2>somebody's given off and then giving them what they want

679
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.839
<v Speaker 2>to hear. Whereas I feel like the same thing with hypnotherapy.

680
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:07.160
<v Speaker 2>It was a very popular thing in that was used

681
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.360
<v Speaker 2>by law enforcement in the nineties, but there's a huge

682
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:12.320
<v Speaker 2>margin for error, and there's a lot of things that

683
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:15.679
<v Speaker 2>can go wrong, and you can also implant information while

684
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.280
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to extract information, so it can really muddy

685
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:21.880
<v Speaker 2>the waters in a lot of ways. So to think

686
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:23.880
<v Speaker 2>that it was like a popular thing to be doing

687
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:26.679
<v Speaker 2>this to small children like Karen was howled at this

688
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:27.760
<v Speaker 2>time when this was being.

689
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:29.199
<v Speaker 1>Done four years old.

690
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.920
<v Speaker 2>She was not even five years old yet, So wow,

691
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:35.639
<v Speaker 2>is a lot to think, like this poor little girl

692
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:39.119
<v Speaker 2>has been through, She's really run the gamut of these

693
00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:43.079
<v Speaker 2>really negative experiences and then trying to get this information.

694
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:45.039
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's kind of boggling my mind.

695
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 1>It is. Yeah, I mean, I do acknowledge that this

696
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:52.039
<v Speaker 1>is a legitimate point by the defense because Larry apparently

697
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:55.199
<v Speaker 1>consented to the hypnosis and at the time Tommy went missing,

698
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.639
<v Speaker 1>she also allowed Karen to be questioned by police detectives

699
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:01.920
<v Speaker 1>a child welfare worker and a therapist, And even though

700
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:04.280
<v Speaker 1>he had scared her pretty good allegedly and made her

701
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.960
<v Speaker 1>like stay silent about having witnessed him kill Tommy, it

702
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:09.840
<v Speaker 1>still makes you wonder if he would be willing to

703
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.320
<v Speaker 1>allow her to be interviewed by all these people by

704
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.199
<v Speaker 1>herself when there's a danger because she's a four year old,

705
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:17.559
<v Speaker 1>that she could finally let loose what she has seen

706
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.159
<v Speaker 1>and then implicate Larry. So that was the argument the

707
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.159
<v Speaker 1>defense made, is that if this story was true, then

708
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:25.320
<v Speaker 1>there's no way Larry would allowed his daughter to be

709
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:28.320
<v Speaker 1>interviewed on supervised by this many professionals.

710
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:34.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, unless Larry is that narcissistic that he believes

711
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.440
<v Speaker 2>that he's done such a number on Karen that she

712
00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:42.199
<v Speaker 2>wholeheartedly believes his narrative that he's spun. He sounds like

713
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.280
<v Speaker 2>I could go either way. I think that if you

714
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:48.159
<v Speaker 2>are a risk averse person and you are responsible for

715
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:50.519
<v Speaker 2>what happened to Tommy, and you know that Karen has

716
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:53.719
<v Speaker 2>seen it, it would be absolutely asinine to will then

717
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.800
<v Speaker 2>allow your four year old daughter to go in undergo

718
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:01.239
<v Speaker 2>hypnosis and then just take take a chance that she

719
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:05.239
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't remember things. The way they actually happened. But Larry

720
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:07.280
<v Speaker 2>seems like the type of guy where he maybe could

721
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.400
<v Speaker 2>take that gamble and think I'm just that good that

722
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:12.800
<v Speaker 2>I've convinced my daughter that this is truly the way

723
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.559
<v Speaker 2>that things are and not the way that she originally

724
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.920
<v Speaker 2>thought that they things played out. So either scenario is

725
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:22.119
<v Speaker 2>possible in my mind, But I'm more inclined to think

726
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.480
<v Speaker 2>most people would avoid having their child sit down with

727
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the hypnotherapist because they'd be extremely nervous about what they

728
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:29.880
<v Speaker 2>could share.

729
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.599
<v Speaker 1>That is true. Yeah, Like it is possible that Larry

730
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:34.559
<v Speaker 1>was just arrogant enough to think that he could get

731
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.119
<v Speaker 1>away with it and maybe just got incredibly lucky that

732
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Karen was able to remain silent and not come out

733
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:43.159
<v Speaker 1>until she moved thousands of miles away from him. And

734
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:45.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that's one of the most controversial elements of

735
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:48.239
<v Speaker 1>this case is because many of the vast majority of

736
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.840
<v Speaker 1>people believe that Larry was guilty and that he did

737
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:54.480
<v Speaker 1>something to Tommy. But they're wondering, is the scenario involving

738
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:57.599
<v Speaker 1>the bullet the stray bullet true? Did he actually beat Tommy?

739
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Is Karen's story reliable? Because some people have been unwilling

740
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:03.840
<v Speaker 1>to discount the possibility that, yes, it could be true

741
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:06.880
<v Speaker 1>that Judy coached Karen into sharing the story, and that

742
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.400
<v Speaker 1>even though Larry did something to Tommy, it was not

743
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.840
<v Speaker 1>exactly the truth and Karen never actually witnessed it. So

744
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.320
<v Speaker 1>I can see why there is so much controversy surrounding

745
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.880
<v Speaker 1>this case. So additional testimony was provided by a former

746
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.679
<v Speaker 1>babysitter of the Gibsons who claimed that she looked after

747
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>Karen shortly after Tommy went missing and heard her make

748
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:29.480
<v Speaker 1>a statement that her father had quote unquote broken her brother,

749
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.320
<v Speaker 1>which could be seen as damning as well. And the

750
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 1>trial finally provided a resolution for the infamous spot in

751
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.719
<v Speaker 1>the Road letter as a resident who lived in Azalea,

752
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Oregon named Moran Doschler took the stand to reveal that

753
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:44.760
<v Speaker 1>the anonymous writer was likely his wife, who had passed

754
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.320
<v Speaker 1>away in nineteen ninety three, so she wasn't able to

755
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.000
<v Speaker 1>testify about it herself. But I will say that after

756
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:53.719
<v Speaker 1>all the hype from the unsaw mystery segment, this resolution

757
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 1>was a bit of a disappointment because it turned out

758
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:58.880
<v Speaker 1>that Doschler and his wife had been camping on the

759
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.760
<v Speaker 1>Oregon coast on the day of Tommy's disappearance, but she

760
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.199
<v Speaker 1>claimed that she had a psychic vision of the event

761
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.320
<v Speaker 1>and decided to write an anonymous letter to the authorities

762
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.320
<v Speaker 1>recounting what she had seen. As far as I can tell,

763
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:12.760
<v Speaker 1>the contents of the letter what she wrote has still

764
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:15.000
<v Speaker 1>never been released publicly, so we don't know what she

765
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 1>put in there. But it does not sound like the

766
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.159
<v Speaker 1>Dosler's had any connection to the Gibsons or any personal

767
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.159
<v Speaker 1>knowledge of what happened to Tommy. So it turns out

768
00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.199
<v Speaker 1>that this much hype Spot in the Road letter was

769
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:28.119
<v Speaker 1>probably nothing more than a red herring written by someone

770
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 1>who just wanted to interject into the case because they

771
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:32.719
<v Speaker 1>had a so called psychic vision.

772
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds about right, and I think that that

773
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.480
<v Speaker 2>is pretty much par for the course. When we look

774
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.280
<v Speaker 2>at a lot of nineties cases, you often will see

775
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 2>somebody who had a psychic vision insert themselves far more

776
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:45.920
<v Speaker 2>than you would in today's cases.

777
00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:49.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. So I still wouldn't want to know, though,

778
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:51.719
<v Speaker 1>what they wrote in the letter, But I still want

779
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.159
<v Speaker 1>to know what Spot in the Road actually means, if

780
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.800
<v Speaker 1>it has any insight into what could have happened to Tommy.

781
00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.320
<v Speaker 1>But it sounds like it just has no real relevance

782
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:03.159
<v Speaker 1>to the case. So Larry's trial went the last six

783
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:05.920
<v Speaker 1>weeks before it went to the jury, and after deliberating

784
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:08.360
<v Speaker 1>for a total of fourteen hours over the course of

785
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.519
<v Speaker 1>two days, they did find Larry guilty. But this is

786
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:15.480
<v Speaker 1>what is very controversial about this case. If he had

787
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.519
<v Speaker 1>been convicted on the charges of intentional murder and murder

788
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.679
<v Speaker 1>by abuse, which is what he was originally charged with,

789
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:24.159
<v Speaker 1>he could have received a sense of at least ten

790
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.440
<v Speaker 1>years in prison for each charge. But for whatever reason,

791
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.840
<v Speaker 1>the jury decided to convict him on the lesser charge

792
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:34.800
<v Speaker 1>of second degree manslaughter, which meant that the maximum sentence

793
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:38.199
<v Speaker 1>that Larry could receive was only three years. So after

794
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.559
<v Speaker 1>all this, it turns out that Larry was going to

795
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:43.239
<v Speaker 1>spend no longer than three years in prison for killing

796
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:45.119
<v Speaker 1>his own to and a half year old son.

797
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what it was with the jury. I guess

798
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:51.280
<v Speaker 2>it was. There is really no evidence that this would

799
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:55.440
<v Speaker 2>be premeditated. It seemed very much like this was a

800
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:58.719
<v Speaker 2>heat of the moment thing where something happened, Larry was

801
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:01.519
<v Speaker 2>in a rush to cover it up. But if he

802
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:05.599
<v Speaker 2>beat his son, then there's a point where you could

803
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.679
<v Speaker 2>have stopped. Do you know what I mean? If this

804
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.039
<v Speaker 2>was at the hands of Larry, it wasn't like a

805
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:12.000
<v Speaker 2>stray bullet while he was trying to kill a cat.

806
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:15.159
<v Speaker 2>If that was the case, then I can understand manslaughter.

807
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 2>But the other scenario that Karen pointed out, it just

808
00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:23.360
<v Speaker 2>it seems so egregious that he would get three years

809
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>for this. This is a human being whose life has

810
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>been snuffed out, who the rest of the world doesn't

811
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.920
<v Speaker 2>get to see what they would amount to, like what

812
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.760
<v Speaker 2>they would contribute to this world. He was stolen from Karen,

813
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.760
<v Speaker 2>from Judy, from everybody who loved him. And to think

814
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:43.039
<v Speaker 2>that the penalty is three years, it just it doesn't

815
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:44.119
<v Speaker 2>feel satisfactory.

816
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:47.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh definitely. And like I really wish that the jury

817
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:49.679
<v Speaker 1>had explained their verdict because, like I said, one of

818
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:53.280
<v Speaker 1>the original charges was murder by abuse, and that's exactly

819
00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:55.480
<v Speaker 1>what the scenario is. If you beat up your two

820
00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.079
<v Speaker 1>year old son and wind up killing him, I think

821
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.280
<v Speaker 1>that qualifies where a second degree manslaughter would be more

822
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:04.400
<v Speaker 1>logical if the scenario involving the stray bullet was true,

823
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.039
<v Speaker 1>because that wasn't a plan crime, that was just a

824
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.440
<v Speaker 1>freak accidence in which he caused someone's death. So makes

825
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.519
<v Speaker 1>me wonder why they chose second degree manslaughter because that

826
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.719
<v Speaker 1>was not one of the original charges. It makes me wonder, Well,

827
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.239
<v Speaker 1>we believe that Larry did kill Tommy, but we don't

828
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.159
<v Speaker 1>believe Karen's story. But so this is kind of a

829
00:41:22.159 --> 00:41:25.880
<v Speaker 1>compromise where we don't necessarily believe he beat Tommy to death,

830
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.199
<v Speaker 1>but we want to convict him of something. So that's

831
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.239
<v Speaker 1>why we're giving him second agree manslaughter even though like

832
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:32.920
<v Speaker 1>that wasn't one of the original charges.

833
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>What I in my gut, I've got nothing to back

834
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:38.480
<v Speaker 2>this up. But what I think happened is you probably

835
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>have a jury, you know, full of twelve people, and

836
00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:45.159
<v Speaker 2>imagine you've got ten people that are ready to say, okay,

837
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 2>this is murder by abuse, and then you've got a

838
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>couple other people to say, we don't have the evidence

839
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:52.519
<v Speaker 2>of that. We have a four year old girl who's

840
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:56.639
<v Speaker 2>been incredibly troubled and she's giving testimony about what happened.

841
00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:59.639
<v Speaker 2>We can't be sure. And so when you have a

842
00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:03.039
<v Speaker 2>jury who could potentially be hopelessly deadlocked, but everyone wants

843
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>to go home to their families. Nobody wants to sit

844
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.320
<v Speaker 2>and have to go through this day after day, presenting

845
00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:10.840
<v Speaker 2>the case again and again and again, and they know

846
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:13.760
<v Speaker 2>that nobody wants to do a retrial, So perhaps for

847
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:17.480
<v Speaker 2>the jury that was the compromise for them was the

848
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.480
<v Speaker 2>manslaughter rather than charging him with murder by abuse.

849
00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:23.440
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense to me, because, like I said, they

850
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:26.320
<v Speaker 1>deliberated for fourteen hours over the course of two days,

851
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:28.599
<v Speaker 1>so they were obviously debating this a long time, so

852
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm guessing there were probably maybe a handful of jurors

853
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 1>who still thought there was a bit of reasonable doubt

854
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:36.559
<v Speaker 1>where they thought Larry did something but didn't necessarily believe

855
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Karen's story. So this was the compromise, second degree manslaughter.

856
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 1>But unfortunately, the end result was a very light sentence

857
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.719
<v Speaker 1>for the severity of the crime, because Larry had already

858
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:49.159
<v Speaker 1>spent nearly a year in jail at that point to

859
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.639
<v Speaker 1>wait trial, and this would count as time served towards

860
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.719
<v Speaker 1>a sentence, so he was sent to the Oregon State Penitentiary.

861
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:59.480
<v Speaker 1>He still got additional times shaped off for good behavior,

862
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.199
<v Speaker 1>and he was finally released in September of nineteen ninety

863
00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:06.159
<v Speaker 1>six after only having served a total of eighteen months

864
00:43:06.199 --> 00:43:09.440
<v Speaker 1>there so eighteen months for a father like beating his

865
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:11.840
<v Speaker 1>two year old son to death. And of course people

866
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 1>were hoping now that Larry has finally been convicted, he

867
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:17.800
<v Speaker 1>can't be charged with the same crime again. Maybe he'll

868
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.320
<v Speaker 1>finally confess to what he did and reveal the location

869
00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.960
<v Speaker 1>to Tommy's body. But no, even after he was released

870
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.840
<v Speaker 1>from jail, even after he was found guilty, he continued

871
00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:28.519
<v Speaker 1>to maintain his innocence and say he was railroaded.

872
00:43:29.239 --> 00:43:32.719
<v Speaker 2>Of course he did. He just sounds like the stereotypical narcissist.

873
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:36.320
<v Speaker 2>He's never going to give those people that love Tommy

874
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.679
<v Speaker 2>what they want the most, and that's the chance to

875
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:40.920
<v Speaker 2>reunite with his remains and to be able to bury

876
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.719
<v Speaker 2>him or cremate him, whatever they choose to do to

877
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:46.960
<v Speaker 2>give them that resolution. He's not giving that to anybody.

878
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:49.400
<v Speaker 2>And that doesn't surprise me at all based on what

879
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:50.639
<v Speaker 2>we've heard about from Larry.

880
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:53.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And it gets even worse, like, why do

881
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 1>you get a load of this story. After he was

882
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:58.239
<v Speaker 1>released from prison, he did start up a website in

883
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.320
<v Speaker 1>which he said he was going to spread away fareness

884
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:03.639
<v Speaker 1>about Tommy's disappearance and hope that he was found because

885
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:05.599
<v Speaker 1>he's still trying to give up the pretense that his

886
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:07.920
<v Speaker 1>son was abducted and he had nothing to do with it.

887
00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.519
<v Speaker 1>But later on this website would be converted a web

888
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:15.400
<v Speaker 1>into a personal blog for himself because he wanted to

889
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.199
<v Speaker 1>further his country music career. Oh God, yeah, I believe

890
00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:22.039
<v Speaker 1>it or not yet, Larry. He moved to Montana, and

891
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:24.960
<v Speaker 1>he didn't become like a country music star, but he

892
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:28.079
<v Speaker 1>actually produced some CDs and toured and did a couple

893
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:31.639
<v Speaker 1>live shows in Montana and started up a website for himself.

894
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:34.000
<v Speaker 1>And it was kind of funny because the photograph of him,

895
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.719
<v Speaker 1>he's almost completely recognizable for how he looks on Unsolved

896
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.199
<v Speaker 1>Mysteries because he's wearing a cowboy hat. He's grown a

897
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.119
<v Speaker 1>gray beard, so on the surface, you wouldn't guess that

898
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:45.280
<v Speaker 1>this was the same guy who spent time in prison

899
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:48.360
<v Speaker 1>for killing his son, because he obviously wants to put

900
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:50.880
<v Speaker 1>this part of his life behind him and then just

901
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.880
<v Speaker 1>move on. And for years he actually had a YouTube

902
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:57.519
<v Speaker 1>channel where he showed like handheld recordings of his live

903
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.679
<v Speaker 1>performances on stage where he's playing songs like Eastbound and Down,

904
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:04.440
<v Speaker 1>the song from the movie Smokey and the bandit. But

905
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.280
<v Speaker 1>one thing I noticed is that the comments were conveniently

906
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 1>turned off on all these videos because I think he

907
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:13.840
<v Speaker 1>doesn't want people recognize him and leaving discrete comments accusing

908
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.519
<v Speaker 1>him of murdering his son because he just wants to

909
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.280
<v Speaker 1>move on and hopefully become this big country stars. So

910
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:22.280
<v Speaker 1>at first he was acting like a concerned father about

911
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:24.639
<v Speaker 1>wanting to find the real truth about what happened to

912
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:26.840
<v Speaker 1>his son. But then I think the country music career

913
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:27.679
<v Speaker 1>took precedence.

914
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, that's so embarrassing. I'm so embarrassed for him.

915
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Second hand embarrassment. Yeah, I mean, if somebody has a

916
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>passion for music, I'm all for them following it. It

917
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:41.639
<v Speaker 2>takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there.

918
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:44.639
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not congratulating Larry on anything that he does,

919
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.320
<v Speaker 2>especially when we harken back to the beginning of this

920
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:52.880
<v Speaker 2>case when he put out that song about his son

921
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:57.079
<v Speaker 2>being missing, about Tommy's disappearance, and it's like, was your

922
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:01.800
<v Speaker 2>objective ever to find Tommy? Likely not, it was to

923
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:05.079
<v Speaker 2>further your own music career. And the fact that you've

924
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:09.480
<v Speaker 2>transitioned this website about your son into your music website

925
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:12.719
<v Speaker 2>is just so weird. It's such a weird thing. He's

926
00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:14.039
<v Speaker 2>such a strange man.

927
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.559
<v Speaker 1>He is. Yeah, Like I remember a light bulb went

928
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.280
<v Speaker 1>over my head when I found out about this, and

929
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:21.000
<v Speaker 1>then I remembered like the early stages of the investigation

930
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Speaker 1>where he recorded that song for Tommy and it played

931
00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:26.119
<v Speaker 1>on the local radio and television, and I'm like, eugh,

932
00:46:26.199 --> 00:46:29.199
<v Speaker 1>this guy probably is guilty and caused his son's disappearance,

933
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.440
<v Speaker 1>and he's capitalizing it because he probably had this dream

934
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.559
<v Speaker 1>that he wanted to be a country music singer and

935
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.159
<v Speaker 1>is thinking, oh, I'll use this as an opportunity to

936
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.480
<v Speaker 1>release a song with the media and maybe it'll help

937
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:42.440
<v Speaker 1>my career. And then he tries it once again after

938
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.360
<v Speaker 1>he has already served time in prison, and I tried

939
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.360
<v Speaker 1>to give like the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe

940
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:50.079
<v Speaker 1>this is a completely different Larry Gibson, because he does

941
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:52.719
<v Speaker 1>look a lot different after all these years. But then

942
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:55.159
<v Speaker 1>I watched the YouTube video and him introducing one of

943
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:58.679
<v Speaker 1>his songs and I recognize that monotone on emotional voice,

944
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:01.119
<v Speaker 1>and then like, that is totally the same guy here,

945
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:03.360
<v Speaker 1>and here he is just trying to start this second

946
00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:06.199
<v Speaker 1>life and pretend that he didn't do this horrible thing

947
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:09.199
<v Speaker 1>thirty years ago. One other thing I wanted to mention

948
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.480
<v Speaker 1>is that there was a poster on the Unsolved Mysteries

949
00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:16.159
<v Speaker 1>message board at the Sitcoms Online for him who wrote

950
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.360
<v Speaker 1>that about sixteen to seventeen years ago. He actually found

951
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Larry on Facebook and actually took the initiative to message

952
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:25.719
<v Speaker 1>him and ask him about Tommy's case, and he said,

953
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:28.480
<v Speaker 1>I was totally expecting him to block me and like

954
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:31.920
<v Speaker 1>not want to talk to me, But surprisingly Larry responded

955
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:35.320
<v Speaker 1>within twenty four hours and was surprisingly cordial and open

956
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:39.679
<v Speaker 1>about talking about Tommy's disappearance. But he also still maintained

957
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:42.239
<v Speaker 1>his innocence, saying that his attorney screwed him during the

958
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.519
<v Speaker 1>original trial and that he was wrongly convicted. And he

959
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.440
<v Speaker 1>also said, well, I've reconciled with my three daughters and

960
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:51.440
<v Speaker 1>we have a great relationship now, but we technically only

961
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 1>have his word on that. I somehow have doubts that

962
00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:57.760
<v Speaker 1>he would reconcile with Karen after she testified against him

963
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:00.280
<v Speaker 1>at the trial. And I've been unable to find any

964
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:03.039
<v Speaker 1>hard information about Judy or any of the three daughters

965
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:06.239
<v Speaker 1>whereabouts today. But it just shows kind of his narcissism

966
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.280
<v Speaker 1>here where I think he knows that no matter what

967
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.960
<v Speaker 1>I say, I've served my time, I can't be convicted

968
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.119
<v Speaker 1>of the same crime again. So I'm totally going to

969
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.800
<v Speaker 1>talk to this random stranger about my son's disappearance on Facebook.

970
00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:20.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds about right, And yeah, I would call

971
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:23.800
<v Speaker 2>into question how close these relationships with his daughters actually are.

972
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:27.280
<v Speaker 2>Will never truly know because being he's probably of the

973
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.880
<v Speaker 2>mind that if he says it, no one's going to

974
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.519
<v Speaker 2>come out publicly to refute him because they can't be bothered.

975
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:36.079
<v Speaker 2>So he can essentially say whatever he wants further, whatever narrative,

976
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.800
<v Speaker 2>and they're likely not going to oppose it. So he

977
00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:42.599
<v Speaker 2>can paint himself to look like he's this great, reformed

978
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:45.679
<v Speaker 2>guy and that his family loves him and nobody's going

979
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:46.559
<v Speaker 2>to say otherwise.

980
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, So he's doing whatever he can to help

981
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:54.119
<v Speaker 1>his image. But obviously the Unsolved Mystery segment is still

982
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:56.719
<v Speaker 1>out there, so he still comes across pretty badly to

983
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.880
<v Speaker 1>like a nationally televised audience. I guess the last thing

984
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.519
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk about is Judy's original interview on

985
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:05.480
<v Speaker 1>Unsolved Mysteries, because the story she told is that at

986
00:49:05.480 --> 00:49:09.039
<v Speaker 1>that time she recorded it, she legitimately believed that Larry

987
00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:13.440
<v Speaker 1>was innocent and wouldn't had any responsibility for Tommy's disappearance.

988
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:15.840
<v Speaker 1>But then she comes out at the trial saying that

989
00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:19.320
<v Speaker 1>she had already seen like Larry allegedly hit Tommy even

990
00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:21.800
<v Speaker 1>before this happened, and that there was a history of

991
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:25.119
<v Speaker 1>domestic abuse in the homes. So when she's recording it,

992
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:27.119
<v Speaker 1>he kind of sense now that she has kind of

993
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:29.079
<v Speaker 1>this fear in her eyes, that she's saying what her

994
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:31.480
<v Speaker 1>husband wants her to say, and that even if she

995
00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:34.199
<v Speaker 1>does not have any direct knowledge or involvement, she's still

996
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:37.719
<v Speaker 1>pushing forward this narrative because she's terrified that if she

997
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.119
<v Speaker 1>says the wrong thing, then he might take it out

998
00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:42.840
<v Speaker 1>on her after the cameras have stopped rolling. So I

999
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:45.800
<v Speaker 1>do believe that once she finally got the courage to

1000
00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:48.559
<v Speaker 1>separate from Larry move away, and then Karen came forward

1001
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.280
<v Speaker 1>this story, that's when a big light bulb came over

1002
00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:54.360
<v Speaker 1>her head and she realized that Larry probably killed my son.

1003
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:57.599
<v Speaker 1>But of course the narrative push forward by Larry and

1004
00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:00.440
<v Speaker 1>his defense team was that Judith wanted to get revenge

1005
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.440
<v Speaker 1>on Larry by getting coaching Karen to share this false

1006
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:06.920
<v Speaker 1>story about having witness Larry kill Tommy. But I don't

1007
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:08.559
<v Speaker 1>think very many people believe that.

1008
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:12.480
<v Speaker 2>No, I really highly doubt that. And the dynamics in

1009
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:16.119
<v Speaker 2>a relationship where somebody is abusive, where it sounds like

1010
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Larry was very abusive to the kids and to Judy,

1011
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:24.320
<v Speaker 2>and she must have been incredibly terrified. And so you

1012
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:27.039
<v Speaker 2>know when they said that, yeah, she technically passed that polygraph,

1013
00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:30.840
<v Speaker 2>but she probably knows more. She likely suspected more. And

1014
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:33.519
<v Speaker 2>if you know that your husband is a violent man,

1015
00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:35.960
<v Speaker 2>then there's a strong likelihood that he could have had

1016
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:38.559
<v Speaker 2>something to do with what happened to Tommy, especially if

1017
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:41.199
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing that things aren't lining up. So my heart

1018
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:43.800
<v Speaker 2>really goes out to her because I can't imagine what

1019
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:47.559
<v Speaker 2>it would be like in a situation where you're afraid

1020
00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>for Karen. Right, So if you go and speak out

1021
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:54.559
<v Speaker 2>against Larry, who you know is a sheriff's deputy, So

1022
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:58.079
<v Speaker 2>right from the jump, everything's working against you. Your husband's

1023
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.079
<v Speaker 2>in law enforcement, his behaviors, it's been abusive, you're scared,

1024
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and so when you're questioned, you're going to assume that

1025
00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:07.760
<v Speaker 2>everyone's going to fall into line, because that's what law

1026
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.599
<v Speaker 2>enforcement does. I don't think that Judy could have known

1027
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:13.559
<v Speaker 2>that they would have thoroughly investigated Larry and that he

1028
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:14.719
<v Speaker 2>would later be charged.

1029
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And it is such a strange situation that

1030
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:20.719
<v Speaker 1>she went on to have two more children after Tommy

1031
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:23.199
<v Speaker 1>when missing. But maybe she was thinking, well, if we

1032
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.119
<v Speaker 1>have more kids, he's going to mellow out a little

1033
00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:26.920
<v Speaker 1>bit and we can be a family again. But he

1034
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.440
<v Speaker 1>turned out he was worse since he allegedly abused his

1035
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.000
<v Speaker 1>children when they were like one in two years old.

1036
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:33.880
<v Speaker 1>So I think she was just finally building up the

1037
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 1>courage to get away from him. But it would be

1038
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.079
<v Speaker 1>interesting to do a statement analysis on her Unsolved Mysteries

1039
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 1>interview and try to determine how much she knew at

1040
00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:44.679
<v Speaker 1>the time she recorded it and how fearful she probably

1041
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:46.039
<v Speaker 1>was about saying the right thing.

1042
00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:46.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

1043
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, send it over to me at some point in time.

1044
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.639
<v Speaker 2>We can go through these interviews and I can pick

1045
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:55.519
<v Speaker 2>apart both their statements.

1046
00:51:56.559 --> 00:51:57.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely.

1047
00:51:57.719 --> 00:51:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Or if you send me the transcripts, it's a lot.

1048
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.199
<v Speaker 2>It'd be really easy to just kind of go through it,

1049
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:05.559
<v Speaker 2>even just superficially and give you kind of my analysis

1050
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.239
<v Speaker 2>on what my thoughts are with where she could be

1051
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:09.239
<v Speaker 2>coming from.

1052
00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Definitely. Yeah, as we talked about, unsolved mysteries had their

1053
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:15.360
<v Speaker 1>fair share of interesting interviews where a number of people

1054
00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:17.760
<v Speaker 1>appeared on camera thinking that it would make them look good,

1055
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:20.559
<v Speaker 1>but it wound up doing the exact opposite, and Larry

1056
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Gibson is no exception. So sadly, this case wound up

1057
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:28.119
<v Speaker 1>officially being closed after Larry's conviction, even though Tommy's body

1058
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:30.760
<v Speaker 1>was never officially found and I don't know if there's

1059
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:33.119
<v Speaker 1>still an active search for it. And I can see

1060
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.119
<v Speaker 1>why this one was referred to as one of the

1061
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:38.719
<v Speaker 1>most unsolved solved mysteries you've ever seen because we had

1062
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:41.519
<v Speaker 1>a conviction. But regardless of whether you feel about Larry,

1063
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:45.039
<v Speaker 1>it's unsatisfying because if by some small chance he was innocent,

1064
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.559
<v Speaker 1>he had to serve time in prison for something he

1065
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:50.039
<v Speaker 1>didn't do and the real perpetrator got away with it.

1066
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.320
<v Speaker 1>But if Larry was guilty, which he probably was, he

1067
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:55.679
<v Speaker 1>got off way too easy. It's like he only had

1068
00:52:55.719 --> 00:52:58.320
<v Speaker 1>to serve eighteen months, go on living his life and

1069
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.239
<v Speaker 1>try to start this country music career. Well, whose poor

1070
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.199
<v Speaker 1>son is buried out there and never got a chance

1071
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:06.079
<v Speaker 1>at life. So I can see why this is such

1072
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:10.719
<v Speaker 1>a frustrating and controversial case. So any further thoughts on

1073
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 1>the disappearance of Tommy Gibson, My.

1074
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Heart just really goes out to the surviving family members

1075
00:53:16.079 --> 00:53:19.280
<v Speaker 2>here because they don't get that resolution in knowing what

1076
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.400
<v Speaker 2>happened to Tommy and like knowing what happened as in

1077
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:27.159
<v Speaker 2>where he is and Karen and Judy and then the

1078
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:31.480
<v Speaker 2>other children have to have a father like Larry. I

1079
00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:34.440
<v Speaker 2>can't imagine how difficult that must have been, and so

1080
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.360
<v Speaker 2>I truly hope that they're at places in their lives

1081
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:40.599
<v Speaker 2>where they've been able to have happy lives and been

1082
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:43.679
<v Speaker 2>able to move past the trauma that this must have

1083
00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:46.440
<v Speaker 2>created and persevere.

1084
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Like I said, I don't know what happened to Judy

1085
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:51.159
<v Speaker 1>and the rest of the daughters after Larry's trial, but

1086
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:53.280
<v Speaker 1>I do hope that they went on to have like

1087
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:57.039
<v Speaker 1>happy lives and are doing well today. So that about

1088
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:59.599
<v Speaker 1>brings an end to our series about the disappearance of

1089
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.039
<v Speaker 1>Tommy Gibson. Thank you so much for joining us, and

1090
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:04.639
<v Speaker 1>we'll be back again next week to talk about another case.

1091
00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1092
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:08.880
<v Speaker 2>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon.

1093
00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1094
00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:15.800
<v Speaker 1>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1095
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:19.280
<v Speaker 1>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1096
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.119
<v Speaker 1>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1097
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.719
<v Speaker 1>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1098
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:28.880
<v Speaker 1>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1099
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:32.039
<v Speaker 1>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1100
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:35.400
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1101
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:38.199
<v Speaker 1>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

1102
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:41.199
<v Speaker 1>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

1103
00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:45.519
<v Speaker 1>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

1104
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:48.760
<v Speaker 1>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1105
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:52.039
<v Speaker 1>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1106
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.480
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1107
00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:58.599
<v Speaker 1>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1108
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.079
<v Speaker 1>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1109
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:04.920
<v Speaker 1>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1110
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:07.719
<v Speaker 1>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1111
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:10.480
<v Speaker 1>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1112
00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 1>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1113
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:14.320
<v Speaker 1>Tier three.

1114
00:55:14.519 --> 00:55:16.039
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

1115
00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:19.039
<v Speaker 3>about the Jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1116
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.960
<v Speaker 3>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1117
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

1118
00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:27.119
<v Speaker 3>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

1119
00:55:27.159 --> 00:55:30.079
<v Speaker 3>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

1120
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:32.280
<v Speaker 3>so we hope you'll check out those patreons.

1121
00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:33.800
<v Speaker 2>We'll link them in the show notes.

1122
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:36.199
<v Speaker 1>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1123
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:38.679
<v Speaker 1>any chance you have to share us on social media

1124
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.719
<v Speaker 1>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1125
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:44.920
<v Speaker 1>You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1126
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.840
<v Speaker 1>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

1127
00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:50.559
<v Speaker 1>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

1128
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.039
<v Speaker 1>trails and Chili pass call for warm clothing.

1129
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy